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Reuters file
U.S. Air Force Chief of Staff General Norton Schwartz at the Pentagon, who recently retired. Schwartz was criticized by both sides for his handling of religion in the military.
Just days before retiring as Chief of Staff of the Air Force, Gen. Norton Schwartz issued a document designed to dictate the conduct of U.S. airmen worldwide — all violations enforceable by military law. For the first time, amid regulations on tattoo size and flag handling etiquette, it laid down the law on religious proselytizing by leaders: Don’t do it.
Section 2.11 of the 27-page Air Force Instruction AFI 1-1 Standards of Conduct is the latest salvo in a battle over religious bias and Christian proselytizing in the military branch. It calls on officers and supervisors to "avoid the actual or apparent use of their position to promote their personal religious beliefs to their subordinates or to extend preferential treatment for any religion."
The document's section on religion echoes a memo Schwartz sent out to all Air Force leadership on religion last September, but adds the threat of penalty for violations.
"COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY," the memo says in bold, adding that "failure to adhere to the standards set out in this instruction can form the basis for adverse action under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ)."
"It carries a lot of weight inasmuch as it’s careful to point out that an individual who violates it can be subject to court martial," said Gary Solis, who teaches military law at Georgetown University. "So the things that are covered in the document, which are very wide ranging, open up violations to court martial prosecution, that is federal conviction should there be a conviction. So it carries significant weight."
What is harder to predict is how AFI 1-1 — called by an Air Force Press release "the capstone act" of Schwartz’s 29-year career — will be interpreted, distributed and enforced where it applies to religion.
"It certainly is important and binding ... and it could lead to punishment. But then it could lead to punishment if you wear your hat backwards," said Elizabeth Hillman, professor of law at University of California Hastings College of Law and President of the National Institute of Military Justice. "It is still going to be up to individual commanding officers to decide what’s OK and what’s not. They have a great deal of discretion."
As in U.S. public institutions more broadly, there has been a long string of battles between those in the military who want to root out religious content and others, mainly fundamentalist Christians, who argue that to do so impinges on religious freedom.
Related: Outrage, calls for action over anti-Muslim materials in military training
Related: Marine werewolves transform into Crusaders, and back again
The conflicts have arisen over military leadership promoting Christian religious meetings through official channels, military courses incorporating Biblical material in coursework, officers trying to convert non-Christians and allegedly favoring "born again" Christians and using Christian doctrine and imagery in logos and official military materials and Christian prayer in official events.
The military has been sued for using Christian doctrine to recruit new members, and pressured to change logos and review course materials that incorporate Christian doctrine, and more recently, those that are anti-Islam.
In 2006, after complaints by non-Christians that they were being pressured by evangelicals to convert, the Air Force issued guidelines cautioning superiors from pressing their personal religious views on subordinates. But months later they eased the guidelines after Christian conservatives argued that the guidelines restricted freedom of religion.
In Aug. 2011, in a victory for trying to extricate religion from military business, the Air Force suspended a course called “Christian Just War Theory” — which had been required for missile officers at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California. The PowerPoint for the class drew heavily upon Bible passages and Christian imagery to teach morals and ethics of launching nuclear weapons. In the class students were taught based on a passage in the Book of Revelations that Jesus Christ is a "mighty warrior" who believed some wars to be just, according to Truthout.com which broke the story.
Military Religious Freedom Foundation
A public billboard in Colorado Springs contains the entirety of U.S. Air Force Chief of Staff Norton Schwartz's Sept. 1, 2011 directive on religious neutrality. The billboard was put up by the Military Religious Freedom Foundation to assure that it was widely disseminated.
Shortly after this revelation, Schwartz issued a memo using language almost identical to that used in AFI 1-1 calling on all Air Force leaders to "avoid the actual or apparent use of their position to promote their personal religious beliefs to their subordinates or to extend preferential treatment for any religion."
He went on to say that opportunities for worship, religious studies and prayer meetings can be promoted by chaplains, but not by commanders. And he instructed those who felt they were facing unfair bias on the basis of religion to contact a military attorney.
Political blowback
In response to the memo, and other moves, 66 members of Congress led by Randy Forbes, president of the Congressional Prayer Caucus, wrote a letter of protest to Defense Secretary Leon Panetta blaming Schwartz for an "alarming pattern of attacks on faith in the Air Force."
"We believe this statement exemplifies the troubling 'complete separation' approach that is creating a chilling effect down the chain of command as airmen attempt to comply," it said, according to a report in Air Force Times.
For those who advocate a "complete separation" of church and state, the Schwartz memo would have been a victory, except that some commanders refused to disseminate the memo, according to Mikey Weinstein, founder of the nonprofit Military Religious Freedom Foundation.
That omission prompted MRFF to receive "a literal torrent of complaints" from military members who Weinstein says are afraid to directly confront the pervasive Christian culture in the Air Force.
The organization invested in a large billboard down the street from the academy containing the text of the entire memo.
As for dissemination of AFI 1-1, the Air Force has a plan "to ensure all Air Force personnel have access to this Instruction," said Air Force spokesman Capt. Derek White.
White did not have the Aug. 7 instruction before speaking to NBC News on Aug. 20.
Forbes of the Congressional Prayer Caucus did not respond to a request for comment on the new regulations.
For Weinstein, it remains to be seen if AFI 1-1 marks a move in the right direction — and it depends on distribution and enforcement.
"It looks very nice," he said. "The problem is if you create a mandate that is complied with more frequently in the breech than in the conformance you create a problem 100 times worse than if you had not created the mandate in the first place ... It is looked at with scorn and derision."
Weinstein, who has been involved in dozens of battles to extricate religious materials from military settings, recently lambasted Schwartz for his "scandalously non-confrontational approach to the Christian extremist predators" in the Air Force.
"It was a transparent and likely guilt-ridden concession by Schwartz, yet it was both too little and too late," Weinstein wrote in an op-ed article. "With Schwartz’s butt-covering, last second, 'midnight drive-by' delivery of AFI 1-1, we have no alternative left but to look to the new USAF Chief of Staff, Gen. Mark A. Welsh III, to show the all-too-rare backbone once required of all top leaders within the U.S. Military."
Eugene R. Fidell, who teaches military law at Yale Law School, said the document could make a difference in Air Force culture.
"It’s one thing for a Chief of Staff of the Air Force to issue a letter that goes around," said Fidell. "It is another to put it in permanent form so the next chief won’t take a different approach. I think for him to have done what he did ... I think it was appropriate and gutsy."
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Leave a Comment:
Sometimes the fact that you haven't pleased either side is a sign that you have made a reasonable choice. The article doesn't however tell me how big a tattoo has to be before you are unable to guard or wash an aircraft.
Tattoos have always been an issue. I knew a soldier that was court martialed in the 70's because he had "FTA" tattooed on the outside of his right little finger. It wasn't very big, and only really visible when he saluted.
The military is trying to get PC, not what it was meant for. These are the least of the worries at the moment. Trying to protect the females in the ranks from fellow members taking advantage of rank and position should be top on agenda if they want to address PC.
Are you kidding me GimDan? If there is one place that political correctness is of the utmost importance, it is where a bunch of diverse men and women must work very closely together to get a difficult and dangerous job done...there can be some kidding, but there must be a strongly defined code of respect amongst all members.
The military is always on the forefront of social change, as they must create a fair environment.
Thank God he didn't restrict the sexual orgies in Colorado Springs before retiring.
tompca,
I think the real problem is that the military is not diverse enough. When the draft was in full use, nobody could begin to be taken seriously with any proselytizing, or any other hocum stuff. The AF and the Navy were also affected in who joined up by the draft. Today's volunteer army creates a very selective demographic of the population - and I suppose born-again evangelicals are proportionally higher in the service than in the general American population.
Draftees provided a large measure of sanity to military lifers. Folks who normally would not have joined any service joined other services to avoid the army draft.
No such "gospel regulation" was even thought about when draftees from all walks of life participated in the military.
tompca- as an army vet I can attest to the PC of the military and were it fails. Tattoos and church is not what needs to be addressed. Rather then need to spearhead the lack of protections for women in the ranks, inaction of leaders and failure to escalate the issues as needed is of utmost importance on the home front and in the field.
I agree partially with your PC statement however it is used in negative was as well. I have watched extremely qualified soldiers get looked over for promotion because the Army had to meet its diversity criteria's and instead promoted "Blue Falcons" incapable of doing their job and failed in leadership roles. PC to an great to an extent however is not fix-all by any means.
GreenTimer-
I don't know where you came up with that crack-pot idea however its very amusing! You would be surprised to find that leaders and soldiers alike are very diverse from social economical backgrounds. I have had atheist commanders, very religious commanders and everything in between. To try and pin a particular class, or group as a majority of the military is nuts. We all serve under one flag, one uniform, and one cause.
Cant tell you how many Blue Falcons are even encountered in the Marines. Thank God we had enough diversity at Ft. Hood that we promoted a fanatical Muslim to the rank of Major right before he shot a room full of people. Good thing we are chastising the Christians but leaving the Muslims (3 others who have either had plans to shoot or bomb their own bases).
Get real here people, this is the least of our problems, I just saw an article about commanders worried about white supremacist groups. I think I met one soldier who had a confederate flag tattoo and a bad attitude but met just as many members of different races who openly didnt like white people. Do we have to really fix stuff that isnt broke?
Green Timer, you nailed it:
My aunt was a USAF lifer up until her death in 1979. She warned me repeatedly when I complained about the draft that the day we had an all volunteer force, we better start watching our backs. She always said that it was the people who were in the service involuntarily that kept the institution honest, and that an all-volunteer military provided an opening for one group or another to start a takeover.
After serving twenty plus years I would really like to know where all this conversion is taking place. There are all kinds of people in the military and they all come together to serve. This is more ultra liberal policy promoted by the left as social experiments. As a member of the Armed Forces and a leader it was my job to bring everyone together but the need of the unit outweighs the need of the individual in a time of conflict. This is just another something out of nothing BS. I remember when the Military had leadership but it is about square filling now.
From the movie Full Metal Jacket:
He would be proselytizing, wouldn't he?
Typical zoomie. Drops his bomb on the way home, leaves the crap for the ground troops to clean up after him.
Can eliminating the role of chaplain from the military be all that far off? Perhaps they can replace chaplains with sex change counselors.
Wet Weener: Hysterical, much?
As a former Airman (E-4), I can attest to the pressure exerted by SOME senior officers, regarding religion. Yes, those that attended the commander's church service were granted special treatment. And the pressure to attend a "generic" Christian service started in basic training and never stopped during my entire enlistment. I AM a Christian. However, I don't believe you can coerce anyone into the faith!
Can you say 'allahu akabar'? Better get used to saying it.
And you wonder why the suicide stats for active military in July over 40 -- Christian faith & culture is still the answer to problems which seem overwhelming in the day-to-day stress our military faces in places like Iraq and Afganistan. We need to return to the ideals and culture of the Greatest Generation.
OneMore-4211487: It's not just muslims, but there are Jews, Atheists, Buddhists, Wiccans, and a lot of other religious groups in the military. Even among the "Christian" groups, there are many different adherants that do not believe the same. If your commander is pushing Atheism, and you want to believe as a Mormon, you may get flack, calling you a wuss for doing Family Night or not drinking coffee or booze. If your commander is a Southern Baptist snake handler, he can't pressure you into holding a rattlesnake to show your faith. This way, you won't get crap about the religion you choose (or don't choose), and you can still have your own beliefs. Basically, it's a way to protect your own belief system - they won't get rid of Chaplins any time soon.
riley-1759556- Those are just one or two individuals. We do have muslims in the armed forces (including some who are deployed) who are not "fanatical" (which that major was not either) who are just fine, but facing discrimination. There are also Jews, Buddhists, and Atheists, among other religious adherants including non-evangelical Christians who are bothered by the more fundamentalist Christian posturing of some officers. What about the Mormon soldier with the Southern Baptist snake handler Commander? That commander could try to force his men, including the Mormon, into handling rattlesnakes, and then turn around and give the Mormon flak for not drinking booze or coffee. I've seen many Mormon soldiers teased and harassed because they do not drink coffee or alcohol. As long as you are forcing your religious beliefs on another person, you are not going to be able to stop race issues, gender issues, and the other stuff that needs fixing. You say if it's not broke, don't fix it - well it IS broke and it needs to be fixed.
Bentbrass: That is fiction, not reality. You DO know the difference, right?
@ Gimdan, thanks for your thoughts.
The military loses diversity by not recruiting from a big chunk of the population: namely, those who think (however incorrectly) that the military is not a career worth considering. When you have a majority of people in an organization involuntarily (or "voluntarily" avoiding something considered worse), it's tough to get away with stuff that expands the narrow mission of that organization - keeping them honest, as Pattie in Maryland says at post # 1.8.
I dunno, maybe you have to be a draftee to really understand what it's like to be one of a lot of draftees (or draft avoiders) in a military organization.
I'm an Army vet too, served in the middle east during war time, AND I'm gay...
I am also Army vet, the values and morals that christian believers find fundamental is the foundation on which our country was built not to say that religion should be at the front of teaching in the military but it should be known that to defend our country the religious and moral beliefs of our nation is and will be the guide lines for which we fight if you choose to join our military you choose to conform to our way of thinking not the other way around. If you choose to come to our country to live, by all means you will be allowed to worship in your faith BUT do not attempt to change our faith or tell us that we have to change our way for your way This is America and it was built on christian beliefs that all men are equal and if you do not like our way then leave or at least stay out of our armed forces. The problem with America today is God has been Removed from our Schools And our flag cannot be pledged
in schools this is a indirect attack to destroy America and we should not allow it to continue.
The Air Force was allowing the Constitutional rights of non-christians to be violated by officers sworn to uphold the Constitution. This hypocrisy had to end. The history of religion in government clearly shows patterns of abuse and persecution. What part of freedom don't the bible-bangers not understand? Christians must respect and tolerate others. The current radicalization of Christians is disturbing. They see limits on their intrusion into the public square as a violation of their right to force religion on to others. How can we survive as a free Country with equal rights for all if the Christians get their way and intrude into our lives in every way? Keep your hands off my child. And don't get me started on Islam. They kill people in a joyous religious frenzy. Damn all that violate the freedom of others to be diverse individuals. That's why we are who we are, we diversified, evolved and became intelligent beings. Celebrate diversity, do not behead it. F*ck all you religious fanatics.
I know! I wanted to know about tattoos as well. It is in the title of the article! They couldn't even put in a sentence or two?
Proselytizing has always been against the rules but like all rules sometimes it is broken and you could always file a complaint up the chain.
As for Shwartz...... good riddence he sucked as AFCoS. Obama probably has a job lined up for him in his administration...Obama likes loyal boot licking " Yes Men "....
For an SOF type officer, his role as COS really flabbergasted me. SOF personnel are trained to "think outside the box" in order to accomplish mission objective, however, some of Shwartz' decisions and rules left so many Officers, Senior NCOs et alia thinking and saying WTF,O!
However, the new USAF CoS, Walsh does not seem to be be the "brightest crayon in the box" either. I guess, there are combat leaders and then there are the PC "pseudo-leaders"!
That's most of the problem recently, tangeant2. Members who have been harassed by proselytizers haven't been listened to by the chain.
I believe the Air Force is trying to do the right thing. Hassling by religious people is aggravating at best.
And before anyone brings up the old chestnut about Christianity being "under attack", this mandate applies to all religions.
That being said, I don't think it is very realistic.
Too many grey areas and free speech concerns.
I agree. If anyone complains about 'religion' being under attack, ask them to substitute any other religion in the story above and see if they would feel the same way. If you substitute Buddhism, Judaism, and yes, Muslim for every reference to Christianity in the above story, would they still complain that the memo was an attack on religious freedom?
I think we should give the proselytizers something to occupy themselves. For instance, let Johovah's Witnesses deliver the mail.
Teach young men/women to kill other young men/women and then tell them all about a loving caring God while your at it...
Makes sense to Pat Robinson...
But God only want them to kill the right people. That's what government's for; to them who the right people are.
As a religious person, I have no problem with this at all. It's one thing to talk about religion among the men, it's another to have them think that they must follow a superior's religion to be in the military.
OMG, Considering the current religious bent in politics, can you imagine a Christian military roaming our nation. That would turn the US into a middle eastern state for sure.
denver bill- Hilarious!
Terry- Are you old enough to remember "Kill a Commie for Christ"?
Or even older: "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition"?
I'm old enough to have spent my childhood watching the Vietnam body count tally during the nightly news. I've known a lot of vets over the years, some close friends, family and others just acquaintances. In those years I have never heard one of them complain about the "proselytizing" going while they were in the service. They can find a lot of other things to bitch about but NEVER this.
This is nothing more than someone fixing something that isn't broken.
Gneisenau wrote:
Yes, I agree. And, not only am I an actively religious person, I'm also retired USAF. The only thing that surprises me about this is that apparently it wasn't the law of the land when I served my 27-1/2 years. It just seems patently obvious that it's the right thing.
--mark d., CMSgt, USAF (Retired)
I agree. What if you have a Mormon commander, and he forbids the entire company from drinking alcohol or coffee? Or what about a Wiccan commander that wants to make his company a coven? Or even the Pentacostal commander who has a Northern Baptist soldier? A Jewish commander can't force his company to keep Kosher, and a Muslim commander can't force his company to keep Halal. We cannot allow only ONE form of religion to dominate officially when we are so diverse. This doesn't mean that each person in the military has to give up their religion while in the ranks - it just means that one cannot force another to follow theirs. If someone has to have time off because of religious duty, or special chow (Kosher or Halal) it will still be provided.
Bentbrass, you didn't hear about proselytizing in the service back then because most of the people who were that religious were not in the military. Now it has become a badge of honor to be in the ranks, and a big deal among the religious folk to serve. It has become a problem to the structure of the military, especially when they are using things from the Religious Right neo-cons to try to get our servicemen to fight back against the commander in chief. You can have religion in the military until it changes your focus on to where your alliegence lies.
Debnran:
Please cite your source for this statement: Bentbrass, you didn't hear about proselytizing in the service back then because most of the people who were that religious were not in the military.
I expect that those who are of a deep faith to keep that conviction strong within their heart. No one can ever take that away from you. But keep in mind that some people really are not all that spritually balanced and do go off on rants that may be perceived as a little off the wall. I am sure there are many, many non believers within the ranks of the military. Just live and lead by example. No need to cram the bible down someone elses throat. All that does is alienates others and holds them back from wanting to find a spiritual path that works for them. I am a believer but I certainly do not appreciate the approach that some so called Christians take. It's wise to not have military leaders up there spouting off over zealous dogma.
Wise words. I do not need others to reaffirm my beliefs or values.
I worked as a contractor for the AF a few years ago. I am Baptist but I was very uncomfortable with the religious tone that was very present at many meetings and ceremonies. I value my freedom of religion and don't want to worry about not appearing religious enough or follwing the "correct" religion on the job. I sure don't need the Government. by way of the AF, telling me what and how to believe.
Bingo Fatibel!
You sure don't need to Government telling you what and how to believe. However, the people who made you feel very uncomfortable with the religious tone that was present at many meetings and ceremonies apparently do need to be told how to act.
This is not about what you believe nor how to believe. This is about sticking your face in inappropriate areas that cause divisiveness (you know - politics and religion) and serve no purpose in uniting us all.
I rejected Christianity some time ago. I have a different belief system now. I am not and will not be subjugated to a Christian belief system, Air Force or not. The question is, what difference does it make? The Air Force is a government institution and, as such, should be subject to the separation of church and state mandates.
I don't deny anyone their choices of religion. That is a totally personal and private decision. No one can order, demand or require someone to become their apostle. They might try, but it would be under duress. One must want to be affiliated to claim some part of a particular belief. Many are atheists, claim none, and leave it at that.
Sadly, too many don't realize that I (and many others) are not subject to their Christianity. If subjugation were the case, why are they not following my religion (since it is obviously better [at least I think so]). Do you see how that works? The Air Force has done the right thing. It's okay to have one's religion; it's a whole other pulpit to force it on someone.
Soon you will be under assault by the Mormon faith - the one true way!
I worked for a couple of different commanders who were Mormons. Never once tried to convert us. Never once even mentioned it. Knew it because of my children, who went to school with theirs, talking about it.
In all of the years I've served in the Army, full time and reserves, I never had anybody even bring up religion except to say where and when services would be held. I've also worked in government facilities and again, never had any experiences where religion was even remotely mentioned. While it's possible that my experiences were unique and that I'm in the minority, I don't believe it's likely. It's more likely that people subjected to the issues brought out in this article are a very small minority, or are actively seeking minor references to religion so they can be offended by them. Tolerance is a two way street, a fact lost to many.
It amazes me about the ignorance some people have concerning religeon. People forget, nor do they care, this country was founded based on Christian tennents. Our laws are based on religeous tennents, specifically the 10 commandments, that teach us to not KILL (murder), LIE (perjury), STEAL (theft), Committ Adultry (Though BILL CLINTON sure had a problem with this one and includes RAPE). Even keeping the sabbath holy has a trickle down to our labor laws guaranteeing workers days off. But of course people loose touch because in our PC environment today it is easier to forget we came to this country to escape religeous persecution.
While I personally don't care what you call God, be it the Creator, or Allah, or hell even a little green man from mars, or in some cases don't even believe at all, I think when you interfere in the way others practice their religeon then certainly there is a problem. But I will say this, the Country's Motto "In God We Trust", should tell you that we are a religeous society. It is emboldened on our currency. And for those that seem to have a problem with religeon, you sure as hell don't have a problem acquiring, hoarding, and spending that currency... But there again, I guess you could say those people Worship MONEY...
Actually, if you study history you'll find that most people came here because there was an opportunity to have a better life. Religion had very little to do with it.
If you were referring to the pilgrims, they came here so that they could enforce their religious beliefs on themselves, and on anyone else they came in contact with. So in effect they were still in favor of religious persecution as long as they were the ones doing the persrcuting.
Realist -- I must respectively disagree with you. It was quite prevelent to me from basic training when we were told we had the "choice" of attending Catholic or Protestent Services or a GI party in the barracks.
Interestingly enough, throughout the years the religious pressure didn't come from the chaplains! They were generally cool with either belief like their's, or lack of belief. It was the others around me that were the problem.
I'm glad they put in this policy. I think that one's religion (or lack of it) is a private matter.
Will - the 'problem' is when folks try to connect all these dis-similar things together - like you have done with god and money. Now add to it that the era of the pilgrims has long come and gone - the world had changed - and yet there are all those who want to hang on to 'the way it was' when that way has little relevance to today.
"In God We Trust" didn't show on any American currency (coins) until 1864 and didn't make it on to paper cuurency until 1957 - - - - LONG, LONG past the day of the pilgrims. Also, you want to guess the motivation to add it to our money??? Seems a part of that motivation was to declare that "God" was on the Union side of the Civil War - - and advocated by a bunch of preachers. Again.....the pilgrims had squat to do with it....and religious proselytizing goes wild.
My point is that there is NO direct connection between the Pilgrims and the 'motto' on the money. Of course, the irony here is that a bunch of preachers want to advocate God via our money for war.
We were NOT founded based on Christian Tenets. The founding fathers were DEISTS, not CHRISTIANS. Regardless of what anybody's "Reverend", "Minister", "Preacher" or whatever the term is for the leader of the church might tell you. If they are telling you that we are a "Christian" country and always have been they either are LYING to you or need to go back to school.
There is a REASON why the First Amendment states that Congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of religion. Europe at the time was largely Roman Catholic and England was Church of England. Government and religion were linked and intertwined. The Founding Fathers did NOT WANT THAT HERE because of the ABUSES that happened under those systems. And again - they WERE NOT CHRISTIANS. They believed in a higher power, but they did NOT follow the Bible. Washington, Jefferson, Adams ... they were ALL DEISTS, not Christians.
I was in the Air Force from 1979-1983. During that time I rarely went to Chapel, but there was always a Chapel on base. Problem is, the Chapel, ran by a Chaplin, would tend to follow a specific Christian denomination (don't know if there were any Jewish or Muslim orgs at any of my bases). Well there are over 2,000 Christian denominations in America, so you can see what a problem that was. I have been a Christian my whole life, but I don't recall going to Church much, either on or off base. I did briefly get involved with a non-denominational Christian organization, but they were allowed to come on base, not connected with anyone on the base.
My point is this. I would object STRONGLY to attempts to "extricate" Christianity/Religion from the military, as that would trample the Constitutional rights of those in the military. BUT trying to appease all different kinds of Christians/other Religious is impossible. I think Chaplins are necessary in the FIELD, to provide comfort to those in battle, but anyone on a base should probably look for a Church offbase to practice their religion in. This is AMERICA, and no matter what State you are stationed in, you will be able to find a Church to practice your faith in.
Realist & Will - good posts. We need more of this type from both sides of every issue.
Pilgrams, Quakers, Puritans, Baptists, Lutherans, Presbyterians . . .
See the Act concerning Religion (1649)
And severed heads seldom receive enough oxygen to the brain.
The Army has generally been pretty good on this issue, but the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs has had a huge problem for a very long time. There are even chaplins who have filed formal protests about it and been dismissed or abruptly reassigned as a result.
http://www.thelutheran.org/article/article.cfm?article_id=5190&key=26936098
I must've served in another country's military... I served in both the Navy and the Army and saw none of the "harassment by Christians" I hear people complaining about, though I did see a guy in boot camp who didn't use profanities, that was "smoked" by his drill seargeant until he repeated the drill seargeant's profanities. It seemed more like the non-religious people outnumbered the Christians (and other religions) by at least 10 to 1 (I knew a handful of Christians, a couple of Jews, one Wiccan and one wannabe Satanist - as far as I could tell by words and actions, almost everyone else was "non-religious") . My question is, how many of these complaints about "harassment" are truly cases of harassment, and how many of them are, in fact, just cases of people thinking that anytime someone else says or does anything that differs from their beliefs it must be "harassment", because they have a right to not be exposed to anything they disagree with?
M356362-
Wise words indeed.
Will-
Epic fail...
Cat - Go read the writings of the founders of our country. True, some of them were deists, others were Christian, some weren't. If you read their writings though, you cannot deny that many, if not most of their ideas and beliefs came from a Biblical background. Deists still read the Bible, they just believed that God has sort of a "hands-off" approach to the world. Jefferson did not believe the "miracles" in the Bible, but believed much of the rest of it. The reason our country's revolution succeeded in bringing about the nation that it did and the French Revolution failed in creating a similar outcome was largely due to the moral beliefs of it's citizens. The founders of our country believed in religious freedom, but they largely agreed on Biblical morals. Read some excerpts of the things said at the constitutional convention when the Articles of Confederation were being revised/replaced -
George Washington said, "It is too probable that no plan we propose will be adopted. Perhaps another dreadful conflict is to be sustained. If to please the people, we offer what we ourselves disapprove, how can we afterwards defend our work? Let us raise a standard to which the wise and honest can repair. The event is in the hands of God."
At one point, when the convention was on the verge of failure, Benjamin Franklin spoke these words:
"I have lived a long time, and the longer I live the more convincing proofs i see of this truth: that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that 'except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain who build it.' ''
These words were spoken during the meeting that ultimately produced the U.S. Constitution.
Other examples of things spoken by "founding fathers" include:
--The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for, among old parchments, or musty records. They are written, as with a sun beam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the divinity itself; and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power.
Alexander Hamilton, The Farmer Refuted, February 23, 1775
--To grant that there is a supreme intelligence who rules the world and has established laws to regulate the actions of his creatures; and still to assert that man, in a state of nature, may be considered as perfectly free from all restraints of law and government, appears to a common understanding altogether irreconcilable. Good and wise men, in all ages, have embraced a very dissimilar theory. They have supposed that the deity, from the relations we stand in to himself and to each other, has constituted an eternal and immutable law, which is indispensably obligatory upon all mankind, prior to any human institution whatever. This is what is called the law of nature....Upon this law depend the natural rights of mankind.
Alexander Hamilton, The Farmer Refuted, February 23, 1775
--"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever."
Thomas Jefferson
--"It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible."
George Washington
--"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
John Adams
--"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity"
John Quincy Adams
This it to Will-ful lack of historical knowledge or accuracy:
Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate, therefore, the gold from the dross; restore him to the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, the roguery of others of his disciples. Of this band of dupes and imposters, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and the first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus." --- Thomas Jefferson to W. Short, 1820
shrekk--thank you for the link to the article--I read it. Wow! It sounds like there are pockets of this sprinkled here and there, and the Academy at Colorado Springs has been a hot bed of it for a long time. For a religious organization (The Lutheran Organization) to write about this is a REALLY good indicator that there IS a problem!
Kozmonot--please read the article that shrekk gives the link for. We all have the right to not be harassed or have our job/career threatened because of our religious or world view. Think of it this way--pick a religion, any religion that is different than yours then ask yourself if you would want to be hounded to change to that viewpoint. As a Protestant, I would not want to be forced to pray to the Virgin Mary. And My good friends who are Catholic would not want to be forbidden to pray to her. And my nephew, who is an atheist, would not want to be forced to believe in any kind of supreme being at all. I for one do NOT want to live under a theocracy, I want to be free to choose. Perhaps this is a fairly recent phenomenon that has escaped from the Colorado Springs Academy and is starting to pop up in other places....
This will be interesting as to how this plays out. Is it right to comply to man-made commandment when Jesus Himself commanded all believers to proclaim the Gospel to the ends of the earth. This may prove to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Actually, I noticed that the "religious people" were quite often teased/made fun of, etc. by the "non-religious" people more often than the opposite. I am thinking that either there are some misguided people involved in this or that there are not enough people willing to act like our "founding fathers", and stand up to those over them and say, "You're wrong." I did this on a couple of occasions regarding the Army Regulations versus the "local commander's interpretation of the Army Regulations" (on unrelated issues). Sure, I missed out on an award or promotion on occasion, but I made it clear that I was willing to pay that price to not compromise. This is an example where, if it happened the way they're claiming it did, they are afforded the protection of the UCMJ in not being required to follow an inappropriate order. I believe that no one has the right to "tie you to a chair and force you to listen" (so to speak) - but they also have the right to allow their beliefs to be reflected in the words they speak (that's the double sided part of the "freedom of religion" in our constitution - they can't force it on you, but they also can't force you to stop practicing it. I've heard enough people grumble and make jokes because a leader (or other soldier) makes "religious sounding remarks" (no matter how minor or how rarely), or doesn't join in the typical military "debauchery" - because they think he is soo uncool, or whatever, that I'm a little leery of taking every "harassment complaint" at face value (There's always two sides to every story, and the truth often lies somewhere between the two). That's why I'm wondering how many of people's complaints are legitimate, and how many are just complaining about having to live amongst those who are "different".
How many times did the Founding Fathers mention Christ, or Christianity? Yes, they mention a god, but I'm still looking for their reference to Christ's salvation.
Will (and others):
Let us not forget that "In God We Trust" was only added to the paper currency (which Will so poignantly states is treasured by the non-religious) in...wait for it... 1956.
Not as an affirmation of our belief in the Christian God, but to distance ourselves from the atheism of the Soviet Union.
Kozmonot: Your collection of quotations attributed to the founders of our nation--that seem to promote some form of faith--is really impressive (I'm not being sarcastic, I really am impressed!). However, what so many people fail to realize is that the present incarnation of religion in general, and Christianity in particular, in our country is not the same as it was 250 years ago; nor, for that matter, is the country the same.
Todd--to proclaim the Gospel is to be sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit (as opposed to ones own emotions), to verbalize the proclamation in love and humility, then to simply live the proclamation through ones behavior and how one treats others with love and consideration. I learned this throughout the years--once a person knows what my beliefs are, when they are ready to talk to me about it further, they will approach me. That does NOT mean that I hide the fact that I'm a Christian, it means that I don't beat people over the head with it, I don't try to force them to convert.
What the founders of our country seem to have recognized - and that we seem to forget all too easily- is that there is room for disagreement in certain areas of beliefs, ideas, etc., but that we have to be able to live and work peaceably with each other in spite of those differences, and to recognize the things that we do agree with others on. So you don't believe the same things as I do - in this country, that is your right. In this country, I have the right to talk about my beliefs and you have the right to talk about yours, and we both have the right to say, "Sorry, I'm not interested in pursuing this conversation.", and walk away. The military can pass regulations about this issue (that, honestly, are likely to be just as problematic as the behavior they seek to curb), but think about the civilian workforce - things like this (bosses "forcing" or "intimidating" people into acting certain ways or following certain tenets under implied threat of loss of job - and because of those 'at will clauses' - they can get rid of you for any reason at all and not have to say why you were let go) happen there as well. At some point you have to decide what is most important to you, and if it means losing a job, promotion, award, etc. - so be it. Are we willing to risk losing out on "other things" in order to hold on to our principles? That is an idea that is central both to our American heritage, and to the Bible.
Kozmonot--Good post!
The law should be more clearly defined, yes. It is a step in the right direction though. Everyone has freedom of speech, but when it become harassment it needs to be dealt with swiftly. Here is a quote from a christian I had a discussion with on another article last night:
Me: You keep talking about gay people keeping their lifestyles to themselves. Why can't you do the same?
Him: Because one command Jesus called His own to do. Mark 16:15 "Go into ALL the world and Preach the Gospel to every creature." Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
For someone who was raised in the Catholic way, I'd think you would know/understand this already.
You need laws to put these people in their place. They won't listen to anything else. Now not all christians are like this, absolutely. But there certainly needs to be guidelines in place to keep these people in check.
Very good move by the Air Force!
It would be so much easier if we were robots.
What a horribly written article. Title mentions "limit size of tattoos" then doesn't even say what the limit is.
A link to the AFI is included in the article. If you're that worried about it - read it.
The writing is outsourced. To India.
The fact that officers need to be told that they shouldn't be preaching to their suborinates is stupid. Being hassled by religious zealots is one of the most annoying things a person can experience. At least in public one can simply walk away. To be forced and compelled to listen to it because it is a higher up forcing it upon you must suck a truly huge one.
Like I said in another vine, the jesus freaks were the worst part of day to day life in the AF. Military folks need to realize they're there to protect freedom, not practice it. The freedoms you have are from the UCMJ mirroring but restricting Constitutional rights. Its why court martials happen in a different courtroom, not a civilian court.
Does this mean it will become more difficult to eradicate the Military Service of Radicals, Cults and Hate Groups declaring it part of their religion. Makes you wonder if the Military is tying the hands of the Leaders.
You know what blows my mind? I don't think people should be cramming religion down anyone elses throat...but what about other things that are just as annoying/offensive to others? For example vulgar language, sexually explicit conversations..etc. There is nothing more embarassing and uncomfortable to me than having to listen/overhear people every flipping day talking about sex, their sex-life, being/getting drunk...you get the picture.
I know I am going to get a lot of gruff for saying that...and no I am not an uptight, frigid bore who isn't getting any...it's just one of those things that I don't think needs announced/discussed every stinking minute of every day.
You're talking about everyday 'guy' talk. If you don't like the conversation just walk away. Or mention that you don't appreciate the conversation.
Buy trying to convince someone to convert to your religion is not the same as a conversation, especially when the one 'converting' you is someone who has power over you.
"I don't think people should be cramming religion down anyone elses throat...but what about other things that are just as annoying/offensive to others?"
No, you're right 4Rudie4. Militantly imposing lewd behavior and beliefs on others while complaining about having to hear about a contradictory belief system--that is just one more double standard from the anti-God crowd.
Some of the things I was forced to witness in the military were unbelievable. The official protestations of "surprise" at the recent behavior of Secret Servicemen is so fake.
Behaving with ever-increasing degradation is a typical progression for fallen human beings. Thus we come to the Christian message that mankind needs a Savior. The response to that message is each person's choice. And they won't be answering to other human beings for it.
You're right. And if you're in the military you can't do that. When your commanding officer tells you to be there, you're there.
Oh, come on...while I agree that people should curb their filthy mouths in public, it in no way has to do with being "anti-God", whatever the hell that means.
Peanut Gallery - if those in the military are there to defend freedom and not practice it, then those complaining of being harassed also fall under that heading - correct? They also would not be there to practice "freedom from harassment" - correct? (just pointing out that that argument effectively makes these complaints "irrelevant")
AFT 1-1 is great and I'd give anything if it would have been in place 30 years ago. There would be 1 or 2 more stripes on that icon in the upper left.
Doubt that.
I was only in the USAF for 4 years ('88-'92). It's amazing that I can't remember meeting a single person pushing their religion. The only two guys I can remember having a religion at all was a Mormon and a Jew, and neither of them ever brought it up at work.
That was then....this is the present world.....everyone wants to talk religion and convert you.
Mike - that was over 20 years ago. Everything changed on January 20, 2001.
It's about goddamn time.
What is with proudamericanveteran? Is he a professional troll? I think he posts his nonsense on every available vine in the world. I've even found him posting on the website of the Saint Joseph News Press in Saint Joseph MO. Total troll.
Wow.. Twenty years in and I can never recall an officer or superior proselytizing any faith to me. I guess the liberals scream abuse when someone says "God Bless You " after you sneeze. However, then again.. this is the Air Force we are talking about. I guess the liberal atheists are going after the Chaplain Corps. Their battle cry is " I don't beleive in any god but obama and neither can you.!"
Maybe the Pilgrims should have just stayed home. They were not prosecuted in their homeland as much as Christians are being prosecuted here.
That's nothing but a strawman your talking about there. this isn't about persecuting religious belief this is about adhering to the vary constitution the military is supposed to be protecting. You can't say you honor separation of church and state as is stated in the constitution, while at the same time allowing the military to become a force for religious proselytization.
Persecution complex much?
All this new standard does is tell people to keep their religious preferences private, not public, and don't attempt to convert. The Air Force does have a well documented history of becoming evangelized over the past several years, and finally, enough service members put their foot down and got it stopped.
Now where exactly is the "separation of church and state" stated in the U.S. Constitution again?
"We have our freedom because of our faith; we do not have our faith because of our freedom." G.W. Bush
So it is your opinion that military personal should be denied access to the source of our freedom in order to enable them to better protect freedom itself?
Brilliant!
It's like "don't ask, don't tell" for religion. You can prance around and wave a rainbow flag all day long just don't dare come out of the closet with your wicked and disgusting religion.
Randy - Not it at all. This is intendedl to allow military members to practice religious freedom without undo influence by their superiors. Has always supposed to have been that way but has leaned way far toward Evangelical Christians trying to push their beliefs on subordinates in the past couple of decades.
Randy
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
GW Bush was wrong. We have our faith because of our freedom. Period. Specifically, we have our faith (or choose to not have a faith) because the First Amendment to the Constitution enshrines that freedom. GW was wrong on lots of stuff.
Military personal are not being asked to give up their practice of religion. They are being asked to not force their religion on their recruits or use religion to give special preference to some recruits over others or make specific religious doctrine part of sanctioned military practice. Because, you see, if the officer forces his religion on someone else, that is preventing that person from the free exercise of their religion or their choice not to practice any religion, which is protected under the First Amendment. See how that works?
Would you be OK with an officer who was Jewish giving preferential treatment to his Jewish recruits? Would you be OK with an officer who was a Muslim requiring those under his command to read and join in study of the Koran? Would you be OK with an officer who was Catholic requiring everyone to attend Mass on Sunday? Would you be OK with an base commander who was Hindu ordering that all meat be removed from the chow line?
Would you?
Randy - you take that quote as your example? Here's a clue - we don't have our freedom because of our faith, we have our freedom because the forefathers of this country won a war - they didn't sit around praying for freedom, they fought for it.
If you really believe that faith is why we have freedom, you are truly demented. What about your Christian brothers and sisters in the Middle East - how's that faith working for their freedom? Or what, does your God only provide freedom to those who have faith in certain areas of Earth? Or do you somehow believe that the Christians in America somehow have more faith than the Christians in the Middle East? On my side of thought, I think they have to have more faith to believe in a Christian God while living there, but yet they are "punished" for it, while the American Christians have freedom? If that's so, your God is demented also.
And I guess people like you just throw a little sh*t fit when you can't completely and totally shove your religion down reasonable people's throats, is that it, vet? And how are christians persecuted over here exactly? Oh, you mean when you're not allowed to bust right into our bedrooms with your religion? I love how you people scream about religious oppression when you're not allowed to place your silly little God all over our laws and then you have the gall to talk about the second amendment but you forget the part where it says government is to make no law in respect to religion.
Some people don't believe the way you do and some people don't want your foolishness to dictate their lives. But you're right, the pilgrims should have stayed home...maybe it would have kept pushy, ignorant as*holes like you out of our country.
"or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
Is the most important part of this declaration. The government cannot dictate that your faith be restricted to the walls of a man made structure. The freedom of religion is absolute; to the extent that it is afforded strict scrutiny protection in these United States.
Sorry Randy,
No religion, absolutely none, can be exempted from scrutiny. Christianity is a shining example of one that I will scrutinize to my dieing day.
Randy - they are still free to exercise their religious beliefs, ceremonies, whatever on their time, no one is denying them this.
Did you not read the part where they talked about - "In Aug. 2011, in a victory for trying to extricate religion from military business, the Air Force suspended a course called “Christian Just War Theory” — which had been required for missile officers at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California. The PowerPoint for the class drew heavily upon Bible passages and Christian imagery to teach morals and ethics of launching nuclear weapons. In the class students were taught based on a passage in the Book of Revelations that Jesus Christ is a "mighty warrior" who believed some wars to be just, according to Truthout.com which broke the story."
This is not what our military should be.
In case you don't agree, change "Christian" or "Bible" or "Jesus Christ" in that statement to "Muslim" or "Buddhist" or "Allah" or "Joseph Smith" or "Quran" or any other religion (being that you are so about the freedom of religion, which should mean all...or do you only believe in the freedom of your's?) and let me know if you would be arguing that those should be allowable.
Dude, there's a huge difference between having the freedom to practice your religion and using it in the military to give presentations.
Who is prohibiting your free excercise of it, Randy? Who? Who is not allowing you to do what you want as long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of others? Oh...that's where you have the problem, right? We're being unconstitutional because some of us won't let you be a bible thumping douchebag.
I'm fine with you spouting your silly little religion as long as Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, etc. have the right to do it right back to you.
And you've decided on your own that one part of the 2nd amendment is more important than the first? So people like you should have MORE rights, then, right? Because that's constitutional. Look, your obviously a constitutional scholar...enlighten us on EXACTLY how your rights are being infringed upon. Please cite passages from the consitution since you're so familiar with it.
"No religion, absolutely none, can be exempted from scrutiny. Christianity is a shining example of one that I will scrutinize to my dieing day."
Christianity is an objective faith; not a subjective one.
You are supposed to ask questions; this is how you grow.
Randy,
All faith is subjective.
If you knew anything about American history you'd understand the one of the primary reasons the Pilgrims came here was so that the could practice their own religious persecution on anyone who didn't want to worship and believe as they did.
Maybe you were just lucky. When I got to a site in Turkey in 1989 one of the officers was in his room most of the time. I soon found the reason - he was an Orthodox Jew and had asked the site commander to be excused from Friday night duties, offering to serve Sunday and other extra shifts in return. Not only did the site commander, who turned out to be "born again," not agree, he brought charges against the Captain - but offered to relent if this Orthodox Jew would "accept Jesus as his lord and savior." I'd call that forcing your beliefs on someone else.
Randy, please explain how your "rights" are infringed by this? First, are you even IN the military? Much less in the Air Force?
This regulation does not restrict the practice of anyone's religion. It simply stops the IMPOSITION of a specific religion on others. Remember, the government cannot IMPOSE a religion. If a hgher ranking person is proselytizing, the he/she is IMPOSING a religion as a representative of the government.
This regulatin is not stopping this same person from attending any church services, reading any religious material, or performing any religious rites. It's ONLY stopping them from IMPOSING it on those who believe differently. Totally in line with the Constitution.
BTW: This regulation also PROTECTS Christians from those of other faiths trying to impose it on them!
These new rules will free up time wasted on religious shenanigans for more important events like gay pride parades and other "cultural awareness" activities.
What's the matter EBO...are you afraid your boyfriend will be emboldened to drag you out of teh closet with him? Usually people that spout of as much gay hatred as you are banging hairy ass while talking out the other side of their face. I'd say you were talking out of you ass but I'm sure it's hard for your ass to talk while it's getting reamed. But you just stay in that closet, sweetie, it's easier to remain ignorant and bigoted in there.
What's the matter big fella? The boyfriend wouldn't roll over for you this morning so you're going to take it out on me?
:D
Nice. But, no, he rolled over just fine.
Well, at least you have a sense of humor. I was only trying to point out the irony of the military doing away with DADT and then restricting other forms of personal expression within the same year.
EBO - everyone is entitled to their religion and the exercise of it on their own time. They are free to attend church, pray before they go nitey-night or quietly to themselves before a meal and pray to whomever they want to pray. They are NOT free to make promotions contingent on "accepting JAY-sus as your law-ord and saaaaaayyyyvioouuuuurrrrr" or PROSTYLTIZING to others about their faith. For did not Jesus say "pray not in the streets as the hypocrites do, seeking public praise for deeds done in public, for I tell you they shall have their own reward. But instead, pray in the closet so that your Lord may reward you in private for those deeds done in private."? JESUS said to speak only to those who WANTED to hear the "good word". WHY do JESUS-FREAKS feel that they have the RIGHT to inflict their own interpretation of what Jesus MUST have REALLY meant on other people?
As a former AF dependent AND someone who is not Christian ... I say it is about F'ING TIME for the Military to start addressing the overwhelming HYPOCRISY of people in THIS COUNTRY who think that if they can't make everybody else's life MISERABLE by making laws out of religion and sticking their HYPOCRITICAL noses into other people's business that they are being somehow RESTRICTED from FREE EXERCISE of their religion. Your free exercise of religion ends where it intersects with anybody else's space, their body and the laws of this country.
Interesting comparison, but abolishing DADT & not allowing people of faith to force others to believe & live by their scripture are two different things. DADT just allows those to be free to live their lives without fear of being discharged from military service. Just like the religious zelots, Gays & Lesbians are not allowed to recruit or force other to live their way of life either. It's all about respecting others person choices/lifestyles/ religious beliefs while allowing you to stay true to your own.
Cat - "JESUS said to speak only to those who WANTED to hear the "good word"." - Would you mind pointing out to me just where Jesus said that? What Jesus practiced, was telling everyone in the crowds - those that accepted it listened, and those that didn't walked away (and he let them - it was their choice, after all). Of course, some tried to forcibly shut him up and put him to death too.
Cat - As far as making laws, etc. goes, every one of us makes decisions, votes for politicians, votes for laws, etc. based on our own morals, beliefs, religion, etc. - so it's not just one group or the other - we all do it. Even you.
The Air-force might as well just put out the "Christian's need not apply" sign in-front of all recruitment centers. Sure you will limit the pool of prospective recruits to about ten-percent of lawful U.S. citizens and officially declare the governments opposition to this nations founding principles, but you will earn the respect of nearly all of the heathens and sexual deviants - until they realise their meal ticket just left.
It is kind of a win-win in that Christians will no longer be putting their life on the line for a nation that resents them and the number of heathen will be paired down via attrition on the front lines.
Wow.
You are being a huge crybaby. Nowhere in there does it say they are limiting the right to be a christian. You just can't evangelize. Get it? That means that the Muslims cannot evangelize, either.
You say that about 90% of the country is christian, no? Then how can this 90% live in a country that resents them when they make up most of the country?
Also, almost every member of Congress, the Supreme Court and the President are christian. Most law makers in most states are christian.
How, exactly are you all under attack when you all are in charge?
The right of conscience and free exercise thereof dictates that faith be viewed as immutable. Christians can no sooner stop being Christians as women could stop being women, or people stop being the race they were born into; as a matter of law.
The three authentic Civil Rights under the U.S. Constitution in order of importance:
Your religious bigotry will not change these truths we hold to be self evident into a lie.
RandyEK - Christians can no sooner stop being Christians as women could stop being women or people stop being the race they were born into; as a matter of law...
Really??? That is so ridiculously wrong it's not even funny. See, people can get sex reassignment surgery and become another gender and on the flip side of that - explain a 'born again'? Isn't a born again someone who found God later? Have you ever met anyone who accepted Jesus well into their life after studying religion and choosing that one? According to you, that could never happen, because they can't change what they are.
There is no bigotry going on with this - maybe you just aren't educated enough to understand or are so blinded by your faith that you can't understand.
Sex assignment surgery; are you that thick?
You cannot change your chromosomes; your chromosomes dictate your sex.
Randy
"The three authentic Civil Rights under the U.S. Constitution in order of importance:
Religion
Race
Gender"
Really? Really? Exactly where did you get that? Not anywhere in the Constitution I read. I can see that your religion is important to you. Fine. But it's NOT important to anyone else. Just be glad you live in a country where you are free to practice it openly. And be very careful of wanting to turn our great country into a theocracy. First, many, many of us will fight you tooth and nail and second your particular 'flavor' might not be the one you wanted.
Keep your religion to yourself. Keep it out of my face, my bedroom and away from my body and we'll get along just fine. My soul is mine and I'll take care of it without your help.
No, Randy, 90% of the country is not christian. Perhaps you shouldn't go to christian websites to get your information. 78.4% of the country is christian. Unfortunately for you that means that 21.6% of the population is going to resist your ridiculous agenda.
Of course, that also means that you christians can't keep the muslims from posting their pillars on courthouse walls if they so choose...you know, freedom of religion in America and everything. I'm sure you'll remain quiet and respectful over non-christians treating you the way you treat everyone else, right?
So Randy - How long have you been a Evangelical Christian?
Have a read, Randy. Funny...you sound a lot like someone in this story...
So, all you got out of what I typed was...
"Sex assignment surgery; are you that thick?
You cannot change your chromosomes; your chromosomes dictate your sex."
So, they have male chromosomes but have a va-jay-jay and got a boob job and had some facial surgery so they look like a woman - what sex are they?
To which I'll have to reply - you just made your point even more ridiculous...you're stating that there's no way you can change your sex but you do realize one can change their religion or what God they follow at any time, don't you?
So therefore, your religion is not like being a woman or a different race. You actually just disputed yourself...why not comment on the rest of my post?
Reaper -
That 78.4% of the country that's Christian? How much of that is Randy's particular brand of Christianity? I know a lot of Catholics, Mormons, and various shades of Protestants who don't particularly agree with Randy.
90% share the Abrahamic faith:
Judaism
Muslim
Christianity
Less than two percent are self professed heathens.
You make a valid point, Brian. And I don't have a problem with those who are happy to worship without attempting to infringe upon the rights of others. It's when they spout suppression of religious freedom when the rest of us tell them to leave us alone that I get agitated.
Muslims and Jewish people are not christians. But since they do share the Abrahamic tradition, I'm sure you wouldn't have a problem with public schools having the children celebrate Ramadan or Yom Kippur. You wouldn't, right?
Randy
The majority of Americans (76% to 80%) identify themselves as Christians.[4][5] According to the American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS), those who identify themselves as Catholics make up about 25% of the adult population, while "other Christians" account for another 51%.[6] According to the same survey, other religions (including, for example, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, and Hindu) collectively make up about 4% of the adult population, another 15% of the adult population claim no religious affiliation, and 5.2% said they did not know, or they refused to reply.[6] According to ARIS, religious belief varies considerably by region. The lowest rate is in the West with 59% reporting a belief in God, and the highest rate in the South at 86%.[6][7]
I'm sure the Buddists, ect don't think of themselves as 'self-professed heathens'. And I image they don't care what you think either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States
Randy,
Did you even read a word I wrote. Nowhere did I say you cannot practice your religion. Nowhere has anyone said that.
And how was what I wrote bigotry?
That is bull and you know it.
hambone, Randy realizes that HE is the one who is talking like a religious BIGOT, just like any other person who protesteth too much. He has to turn the phrase away from himself because of his own fears that he is WRONG about a lot of things. In fact, I'd say that maybe Randy is not secure in his faith and thus feels a need to subjugate and denigrate others in order for him to feel better about himself and his religion. Just like others who try to tear people down in order to feel better about themselves.
Jews and Muslims are some of the people who've complained about the forced Christian proselytization at the Air Force Academy. Many normal Christians who aren't nutty evangelicals have complained about it too, including a Lutheran chaplin who was abruptly transferred after filing a formal complaint.
Randy, no one is telling you you can't practice your damned religion.
What they are telling you is that you cannot foist it on others who have their own perfectly good religion.
Why is that so hard to accept?
Let me say this those who wish to practice thier beliefs in our country is well within thier right.But we have had to change our ways because it has offended some. but it still remains that the majority of America is of the christian faith and we are the ones that are being asked to change the way we teach our children and the way we run our country. I say this to all others if you do not want to here the pledge to our flag or the ten commandments, or our prayers.then maybe you should start your own schools or home school your children so they are not subjected to our ways if you believe coming to or living in this country gives you the right to change it you are wrong. what it does give however is the right for you to finance and run schools, church's and other needed facilities on your own and stay the hell out of ours. you want Christians to stop forcing it on you then stop trying force your beliefs on us. if my way or words offend you then you should leave. it is your choice to listen or not. Gods law is the basis for Americas laws and for the record this land was located not by the pilgrams. or christoffer columbus. and it was because christian persacution from believers of catholocism.
Spent 5+ years in the Air Force and I never encountered a single incidence of proselytizing of any faith however I will say religion is an aspect of the military that serves an important role. During basic training Sunday's were held as an important day to pray and celebrate with fellow airman and it was the one day I remember that felt peaceful and relaxed on the base. That should never be supressed.
Why bother slapping a religious label on it though? have your day of rest and use it in whatever way you see fit, but don't pretend that the only way to have it is through religion.
sane
And who is suppressing it? I remember those Sundays too. Did someone tell you that you had to go? Or was it just available to you to go if you wanted too?
James,
Have you ever been through military basic training? People that have never stepped foot in a church in their life will attend services while in basic training. It's the one and only hour per week where you will not be yelled at or harassed.
Evil,
And that's a bad thing, that only through religious services can an enlisted man find that time of peace.
Evil
Hmm, not what my son, the Marine says.
Actually, while I was on active duty, there were many times we were told on Sundays, 'you are either on duty or in church", (which, by the way, claimed to be non-denominational, though decidedly Christian). While technically not "forcing" religious views on us, it did essentially show that those of non-Christian faiths did not have the same rights as Christians by dictating when, where, and what religious services were permissible to attend. While I am a Christian, I was still offended by the way other beliefs were marginalized to allow time off for Christians, after all, someone has to stand duty while the Christians are all off at services, right?
Sane America,
Before you get all upset, no one or nowhere does it say that that religious persons (christian, muslim, jewish, catholic, etc) should be barred from worshiping THEIR god(s), otherwise there would be an order to eliminate worship services and/or places. Would you have liked to have been forced or felt obligated to attend Jewish services if you were Catholic? Of course not..... so we're all happy that you found comfort and peace at your particular choice and/or place of worship. That's why they are there in the first place. I won't go into religious zealots, because I sense you get really sensitive and it won't result in objective conversation. All the military is trying to do is to respect people's personal choices (with or without religion). Thanks so much for your valuable service to this country!
I often spent sunday mornings in boot camp sleeping in a closet (we could not be in bed, but we could attend religious services, or hang out around the barracks). I also experienced times overseas, where there wasn't a chapel nearby for my particular religion, so I had the choice of going to a different service, finding a foreign speaking service in town somewhere, or not going. One of the few guys I knew who got a battalion coin from the local Protestant chaplain, was a Wiccan - go figure! Also, if we're on the subject of thinking that church goers get time off that others don't, should we also discuss smokers, who get more breaks than non-smokers because of their addiction? Non-smokers don't get to slip outside every 20 minutes or so to take a smoke break. Try being the only non-smoker in the enclosed back of a truck full of smokers for a few hours on a regular basis - how's that for "unfair treatment"? Try and tell the military that they should make it a punishable offense to smoke because it's detrimental to other peoples health and see how far you get.
Why do we cater to the minority on religious issues. Our nation was born as a Christian nation and now because of a few the majority is punished. This issue only began picking up steam after the election of our Socialist Muslim President. Unless I'm mistaken, he has attended church only three (3) times since entering office. Wake up America, this man is changing our country forever and it is definitely not for the better!
The US is not a christian nation. Unless I'm mistaken, and I'm sure I'm not, the founding fathers never declared Christianity as the national religion. The 1st amendment mention of religion was specifically put in there because of the abuse of European monarchies used on the people they ruled over of differing religions.
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" -Treaty of Tripoli (signed by John Adams)
America is a NOT a christian nation. It is a nation with a large number of Christians that provide to ALL citizens irrespective of minority/majority status, the right to believe what they choose without government interference either by way of telling them what the should believe nor by telling them what they shouldn't believe.
If you allow the majority to determine where are rights can and can't be applied we cease to have any rights, rather all we have a privileges of the majority status.
@James.
The Treaty of Tripoli Article 11 does not exist and never existed in the original Arabic text http://morallaw.org/blog/2009/03/tripoli-v-paris-a-tale-of-two-treaties/. additionally; the Treaty of Tripoli was rescinded and never was a founding document of these United states, but the Treaty of Paris is and it begins with:
"In the Name of the most holy and undevided Trinity In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity
It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the hearts of the most serene and most potent Prince George the Third, by the grace of God, king of Great Britain."
"the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" does not translate into "the United States is not a Christina nation."
The admiral that led the assault for the allies in the battle of Tripoli wrote that he was "in charge of the Christian forces" of the United States.
"In God We Trust" is the only official national motto of these United States.
So go sell crazy somewhere else heathen.
Randy,
Whether or not the Treaty of Tripoli exists or not, the United States is still not a christian nation. It is a nation with a majority of christians who, for some reason, keep trying to force their values and morals on the rest of us.
Sounds like you're the one selling crazy.
Also, did they really misspell "undivided" in the Treaty of Paris?
All you have to offer in your defense is a typo; seriously hambone?
The founding fathers were men of the enlightenment. Many, if not most, were deists, meaning that they believed in a Creator, but not necessarily the same God of the Bible. We are not, and never have been a Christian nation. While the majority of the populace does practice that religion our founding principles do not mention Christianity.
Go read the Constitution, the supreme law of the land, nowhere does it even refer to God, Jesus, or Christianity. And while the Declaration of Indenpendence does refer to a Creator it does not specifically call out the God of Christ. That Creator could be Shiva for all it matters, luckily it doesn't matter. Not only does the Constitution not provide for a Christian nation, there isn't case law either.
And your citation of the Treaty of Tripoli doesnt matter. The English version that was ratified did contain the language. Not that it matters, the Constitution is the big guns here.
Every single recognized founding father is on record as being self professed Christians. It is a blatant unsubstantiated lie to state otherwise; sans supporting documentation such as:
http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html
"In the year of our lord 1788"
Where is the Constitution does it mention Jesus, Christianity or the Bible
Randy
Don't quote some organization with the same agenda as you. It's not valid. Go read some real history books. You might just learn something.
As with a previous post, Randy, you did not read my response. Apparently you only read the "Also".
And it wasn't really a defense, it was a statement. I really don't need to offer a defense because it's already in the Constitution. We are not a christian nation. Period.
Randy - there's also this stuff...
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
“The way to see by Faith is to shut the Eye of Reason.”
Benjamin Franklin quote
“To Follow by faith alone is to follow blindly.”
Benjamin Franklin quote
So, while they may have been Christians, they were intelligent enough not to be blinded by Christianity and it's overly important view of itself.
Um, no. No it wasn't. Where in the Constitution does it say so?
By the way, Randy, David Barton is not a real historian.
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear. ~ Thomas Jefferson
The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. ~ Thomas Jefferson
IN HIS OWN WORDS.
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator." Thomas Jefferson
As penned by his hand on the front pages of his Christian Bible.
"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created, that they are endowed by their Creator..." Thomas Jefferson
As penned by his hand on some important document of sorts.
Christ is not Jesus' last name, so in order to consider yourself a "real Christian" you must first acknowledge the truth in the prophecy of the Christ as foretold in the Abrahamic faith.
Most of you folks appear to hold your professed ignorance in high regards.
Or maybe you would prefer to get your information from the foremost experts on Thomas Jefferson:
http://www.monticello.org/
Your usual "because I said so" really leaves a lot to be desired.
Randy, DARLIN' - please heed what Jesus said in Matthew 6:4-6 ~
Unless you are telling us all that you ARE a hypocrite?
@Cat,
Where have I preached the Gospel to anyone here? I've simply pointed out well substantiated and undeniable facts that the loyal opposition refuses to acknowledge.
To be more Jesus like should be the goal of all "real" Christians; and how did Jesus teach...?
He asked questions.
Randy - yes, but they were usually rhetorical questions.
pgard
How?
By promoting freedom of religion? No matter what your religion is.
I've been married to a soldier for almost 18 years and I have seen many times when prostilitizing has driven a wedge between soldiers and between spouses. The military gives up some of their constitutional rights when they join, freedom of speech is one of them.
Uh Real I have an AF Colonel in my family and many others who have served in about every branch of the military. None have had religion forced down their throats by the military. Many have been comforted during battle by Chaplains but religion was not a forced participation event.
Chaplains are great and very necessary. But commanders who stress the christian officers association or leader and soldiers who interject their faith into day to day training make those who don't believe or believe differently then they do very uncomfortable. Using your command influence to impose your religious beliefs is inappropriate.
Wow, Randy EK, this is a new level of ignorance. The Taliban have TONS of faith. They must be the freest of all. And, quoting GW Bush adds a lot of credibility. He is one of the great thinkers of our time.
I was in the AF 20 years and, as an atheist, tended to keep my mouth shut. At times I felt that I'd accidentally signed up for a seminary, rather than a military branch. I genuinely liked many of my fundamentalist colleagues. But, they seemed to think the entire AF was on board with evangelical Christianity. So they often spouted inappropriate religiously-motivated rhetoric in official settings, led exclusively Christian prayers in group group settings, etc. I think most meant well, but just didn't think that there might be others in the room that were of other religions, or no religion.
I also realize that some secular liberals get into similar group-think modes in some settings, like the university where I now work.
I think the AF is doing the right thing by officially banning proselytizing by commanders and other ranking individuals. In this kind of authoritarian setting, subordinates feel a lot of pressure to get on board with opinions expressed by superiors. This reg won't eliminate the problem, but might mitigate it.
The 1st Amendment acknowledges faith to be immutable; your refusal to acknowledge the existence of these truths we hold to be self evident, the laws of nature, and natures God says a lot more about your pathology than it does about those you are bigoted against - people of faith.
My experience tells me your opposition is born out of resentment for being shown in the proper light; and the Devil does not like the light.
Randy
Text of the first amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Some how I'm not seeing the same thing you state. Can you read? Or are you simply putting your own interpretation?
See dsb, first you have to expel most of the intelligence from your system then believe that because you believe in one of the many Gods available to believe in that everyone who thinks differently than you only does so because they are a bigot or are evil and then you can interpret things in that manner of thought.
Get it right. To those zealots who scream "this nation was founded as a "christian" nation", open your eyes and become real. Only a christian would say something like this to promote their own. The fact is this nation was "founded" on several ideals including the desire to worship the religion that you want without persecution. Not to be persecuted because of religion. In addition, read your history. The country was also founded because of taxation withour representation of the populace, There are several ideals involved. It is valid to have your religion, but not to "force" anyone else to have your religion thru constant "promotion" when NOT wanted. Evangelicals are radical in their beleif that everyone needs to listen to their ideal. NOT. If anyone desires to listen and convert to that, well they can. But not at the expense of having it forced upon them. The separation of state and religion are designed for just that. Freedom to worship, not freedom to be forced in every venue. They bring the backlash upon themselves by forcing their views. Go to church and promote within its walls, not on every billboard and public venue imaginable. I do not want your holier than thou viewpoint in my face all the time everywhere I go. If I want it I will visit your church building. Leave it at that because you are interfering with my right not to embrace it. This is correct to keep your belief amongst yourselves, not on every street corner available.
If you have to lie to make your point maybe you should avoid making said point.
The right of conscience and free exercise thereof as expressly provided for in the 1st Amendment of the U.S. Constitution not only recognizes faith to be immutable it acknowledges our right to live our faith outside of the confines of pre-determined man-made structures.
Religion is our first and most importan authentic Civil Rights; all other acknowledged Civil Rights flow from it.
Well, RandyEK, your faith certainly seems immutable...
Randy - Do you understand the meaning of immutable? Would you like to explain how the Constitution says anything in that regard?
RandyEK, do you subscribe the Christian Reconstructionist school of thought?
Randy, honestly. Believe in whatever fairy tale you wish, but keep it to yourself. Nobody wants to hear it, and we certainly don't need it further mucking up our system of government.
This will not affect the Christian witness in the Air Force. The best witness is to live your life in such a way that people come up to you and ask "what have you got and how can I get it?". At that point it is not against the law to discuss Christ, since they came to you and asked about it.
People who try to "shove the gospel" down people's throats will only succeed in driving them away. The best approach is to let Christ shine through your own life and let your actions be your testimony.
I see...
And the Pentagon bent over backwards to rewrite the UCMJ as it applies to sodomy, so that Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines could legally enjoy same-sex anal sex.
I am so glad our priorities are in order - it ensures a competent, moral fighting military force.
RICO
I have yet to see any medical text defining an anus as a sex organ, how sick is this country anyway.......? Our priorities are being driven by the miniority, not the majority anymore.
Or the mouth, either. So no kissing for you.
Soon the "correct" religion will be Mormon! The Evangelicals are in for a big shock!
If this old white dude was Muslim, they would have stoned him. Another self appointed intellectual wanna be. Can't believe people still sign up for the military - proof of how bad the job base is. Leave the military for the "others" - they deserve each other. Representative of our current state of governemental dysfunction.
Got a real kick out of obama's General Dempsey saying the military should remain apolitical. Of course he meant veterans' too. I guess when you serve your country the liberals think you are entitled to no rights at all. They strive to suppress the military vote, whether you are on active duty or not, your freedom of speech should be stripped.
This is the new wold under the false god obama. Bill Clinton stripped us of our benefits and obama wants to strip of us of our rights.
Well at least I can say I served my Country when it was worth fighting for.
The bashing of Christianity has become very fashionable today, but that doesn't make it right. Religious freedom is still guaranteed by the Constitution, for everyone. Eugene Fiddel has a right to his opinion, however, it isn't necessarily what's correct for everyone. Anyone can have an opinion, but it doesn't make it law of the land. I believe Schwartz was just anti-Christian and took advantage of his position to slam it into the ground before running off to retirement. What a cowardly thing to do.
If you think you're being bashed, then perhaps you should consider why. The only people who want to hear about your religion and your own inane morals are other Christians. So if you would just keep it to yourselves you wouldn't feel 'bashed'.
So tominscotts, would you believe the same if an Muslim follower was using his religion in presentations? I guess you'd be ok with some leader talking to the USA troops saying something like - go and serve your country and if you happen to die in this battle, Allah will be waiting with 72 virgins for you or the USA troops are going to kill the infidels or anything like that? Or using Allah in a PowerPoint presentation about our missles and how the Muslim belief will lead us?
Or is it only religious freedom for your religion?
@tominscotts, get your head out of your butt. It's common knowledge that religious right Jeebus Freak organizations (syndicates) like Young Life have been trying to infiltrate the US Air Force Academy High School, and the USAF Academy itself for years, in preparation for their great Holy War against Muslims so they can then convert all the Jews and make the Easter Bunny appear in Jerusalem after some great conflagration they're all so freaking anxious to participate in.
Groups like Young Life are organized conspirators involved in seditious activity across all state lines and all branches of the military, but most especially the Air Force. They should be prosecuted under the RICO Act, which oversees interstate organized crime syndicates, and the military should take all steps to prevent the United States Armed Forces from becoming modern-day Crusaders (which, if you'll remember, was the first name RoveBushCheney (that's like ManBearPig) had for the war in Afghanistan).
They're forcing this ridiculous and ever-maddening "legitimate rape" discussion, forcing their own Xtian version of Sharia law, and they're doing it not like the crackpots in Fred Phelps' traveling freak/horror show, but quietly, behind the scenes, breeding new generations of brainwashed little kids who can't WAIT to see the Armageddon they'll never f**king survive, but they'll damn well cause one if they're not stopped.
Their kind of Christianity would be more appropriately reffered to as Christinsanity.