They are saying that the perp grabbed the cops gun. Did these guys have any training?

BLS-744646

You can wish in one hand & $hit in the other. It's not going to happen. Unless you can get the Second Amendment repealed & the Supreme Court to reverse it's self. You are SOL. Maybe you can go hug a tree or save a chicken from Chick-fil-A or something.

sandtrich....

it says those reports were not able to be confirmed. Our WV state troopers are some of the best trained in the nation. They had and have had lots of training and their training is said to be like that of marines. I know this because my husband is one. When you are in these situations all kinds of things happen but they did not say that happened. The nice thing to do would be to offer condolences to the families. One of our WV state Troopers was killed and one may not make it. The wrecker driver (which we do not know his status yet) and the deputy who killed the idiot is also injured but is fine.

BLS,

In the UK, only the Bad Guys have Guns, that being said. A couple of studies, (you do the research I have), more people Die of Stabbings and being Beat to Death with Different Instruments every year in the UK, then all the US Gun Deaths in a year. Go Figure...

One thing you and some others have not thought about, if it actually came down to some type of Goverment push to take away people's guns. It would Divide Goverment Forces, not all would go along, divide families & friends and with the Weapons that are out here today, it would be One Hell of a Civil War...

CBurroughs

BLS,

In the UK, only the Bad Guys have Guns, that being said. A couple of studies, (you do the research I have), more people Die of Stabbings and being Beat to Death with Different Instruments every year in the UK, then all the US Gun Deaths in a year. Go Figure...

One thing you and some others have not thought about, if it actually came down to some type of Goverment push to take away people's guns. It would Divide Goverment Forces, not all would go along, divide families & friends and with the Weapons that are out here today, it would be One Hell of a Civil War...

I know what you wrote to be untrue. The statistics on murders in the UK are a lie. Site a source.

NC open heart,

Whoa there Nellie! Woman started it, oh yes! Eve to Adam: Adam dear see this here, runs her hand up and down her body. Adam to Eve: Yes dear nice! Well if you take a bite of this fruit you can have some of this, motioning to her body. Adam to Eve: But Eve, it's the forbidden fruit! Eve to Adam: You want or not? Adam to Eve: Give me the Damn Fruit, Takes a Bite... And the rest is HISTORY! See Woman's fault so Women are the real P'sOS... Ladies just written in JEST!!!

It's not only the 2nd amendment that would need to be changed. That the Feds can come into your home and search it without cause or a warrant. Or are they going to make a Blanket warrant that will cover every residence in a neighborhood, or a town?

It's just not going to happen. On top of that, do you realize the time involved in doing something like this? Of where people could hide weapons?

It's easy enough if you were going after those who have gun permits, but what about those who don't? How will you know who has guns and who doesn't? Or how many they have?

My heart goes out the Trooper who lost his life in this incident. I'm glad the perp is dead. That may sound bad, but after what he did, it's better for the troopers family and the community at large that they don't have to support this scum, before he goes to court, and after he's convicted.

CBurroughs

4.2/100,00 murder rate in the US and 1.2/100,00 in the UK. It took 1 minute to disprove what you have said. Do you just make @!$%# up? Nearly 4 times the murder rate in the US vs the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

It seems pretty clear to me we need to take care of this gun situation. Armed (and armored) federal agents going door to door to confiscate and collect all guns.

Got any Idea on how many unregistered Guns there are in this country..I don't but I'm going to guess multy millions..

Sandtrich,

Nope, do not make it up, but I did not use WikiLeaks either. Since you did, I'll apologize for now... I did not confirm your info either... Thank you!

BLS-744646...

Your statement, to me, is simply unbelievable and people like you frighten me more than armed citizens! I don't like gun violence and the fact that lives are lost due to firearms. However, our second amendment rights is the only thing keeping the nation free. If we lose these rights, it is only a matter of time before we lose our remaining Liberty!! Wake up!!!

If there was a tow truck driver on the scene, the trooper probably called him or her. If the car was to be towed and the driver arrested, why wasn't he in handcuffs and in the back of a squad car?

While I feel for the troopers family, these guys really need to learn how to handle a situation and read people better.

In addition, pressure is mounting on everyone, the US seems just a wee bit more volatile than it used to be...

Ok, CB you lying jerk, you have been called out. BTW, that info was also posted on television as a study the other day. We lead the world by a huge margin.

BLS

Your are right and we should start with you comming to my door to take mine. Put up or shut up!

CBurroughs

Sandtrich,

Nope, do not make it up, but I did not use WikiLeaks either. Since you did, I'll apologize for now... I did not confirm your info either... Thank you!

It's not wikileaks, it's wikipedia. Pal, if you just want to make @!$%# up, try posting on Fox's website where it's more welcome.

Swallow,

Just doing alittle updated research at this moment, some on wikileaks, no we do not lead the world by a huge margine. I apologize when I need too and I did to Sandtrich. I do not lie, even on a blog intentionally... I could just get off of it, or change my moniker, instead of apologizing. I like to blog and would rather people half way trust what I post... Swallow That!

I found CBurroughs' source: www.outofmyass.hol it says right there that approx. 100% of UK subjects murdered every year by means other than guns. Not sure how they reproduce that fast, but it was written on that web-site so it MUST be true.

bls = far left liberal control freak hoplophobe, one of the most dangerous sorts out there for anyone who is concerned about any of their constitutional rights , not just the 2nd ammendment.

I think all the proud anti gun folks, should put a sign on their front door that says "there are no firearms in this household"...represent!

one of three scenarios, DUI, stolen car, wanted suspect; law enforcement today, is a much more dangerous profession than 40 years ago, they never know who they are pulling over, a lot of gang members out there.

I'm sure all of the criminals will stop obtaining guns once they know that no one can have them.

What an idiotic "idea", real clueless.

FC, CO Heaven,

It would not have mattered it mine would have been the most up to date, hot off the press facts to be found any where, you Liberals can not be fooled with actual facts... At least I had the guts to apologize online admit mine were bad info maybe, even talked to another guy in the office who said he has same info as me he is trying to find it again... But until then my apology to Sandtrich, Stands. To people like you who just like to be a Liberal AZZ and name call... Butt Out...

@ BLS-744646: Put your foot in your mouth.........I bet YOU wouldn't be the first one through the door trying to take guns away. My guns will punch a hole through MarkIV body armor. SO you sir are SOL, but more than welcome to be a martyr for your cause.

And you're wrong about the gun nuts not doing anything if that happens.......... There were only 149 militia groups BEFORE OBAMA was in office...........

Now there are over 1300 groups..........you do the math.

AND a little history lesson. Guess how the war for Independence was started??? British army going to take the firearms and ammo away from civilians. Didn't work out to well for them did it?

Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

sandtrich

CBurroughs

4.2/100,00 murder rate in the US and 1.2/100,00 in the UK. It took 1 minute to disprove what you have said. Do you just make @!$%# up? Nearly 4 times the murder rate in the US vs the UK.

Population of the UK: 62,262,000 People

Population of the USA: 312,780,968 people

So in the US we have 250,518,968 more People living Here then in the UK.

So taking the Number you gave for murder rate:

Us has 13,136 murders for a population of 312,780,986

While the UK has a Murder Rate of 747.144 per population of 62,262,000 people.

Since the US has about 5 times more people living in the US then the UK. If you take in Population Numbers of both the US and the UK. The US has less Murders then the UK per the amount of people they have.

Well you sit here and complain about people with guns and the shooter(person not an officer)by reports obtained the gun from one of the officers after he was in custody

When the suspect was arrested and put in the back of a cruiser, the man grabbed a gun and shot both troopers, according to Sgt. Baylous.

Investigators say the suspect got out of the cruiser and then shot a tow truck driver who was called to the scene to pick up the suspect's car.

The tow truck driver and the officer that survived were flown to CAMC General in Charleston with critical injuries.

This is just one report from many local news sources that have way more info. I must also add that one report had stated the the young man started shooting when officers arrived but I think that has been retracted.

So I ask how does this happen? We have this and then a little while back another person while handcuffed in the back of cruiser shots himself in the head..so they say

You folks need to dig for more info because you can be sure that MSNBC wont.

My condolences are also extended to all those effected by this incident

Leatherneck,

Thank you!... I have not done the math, I and a friend were and are still looking for the site that had the actual info...

Arguments, disgreements and name calling are, apparently, the way to go in this country these days. How about this? Instead of trying to rip each other's throats out why don't we concentrate on the problem at hand?

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. (Because) no problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." Albert Einstein

Here is some detailed information about gun crimes and murders by types. It shows murders dropping about 8% every year since 2007. Guess Obama did help out there...........since there was a big run on guns once he was elected. Guns deter crimes and this data proves it.

Here it is:

hxxp://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state

replace the xx with tt since NV wouldn't post the link

MR-392541

If there was a tow truck driver on the scene, the trooper probably called him or her. If the car was to be towed and the driver arrested, why wasn't he in handcuffs and in the back of a squad car?

While I feel for the troopers family, these guys really need to learn how to handle a situation and read people better.

In addition, pressure is mounting on everyone, the US seems just a wee bit more volatile than it used to be...

That's not actually how it happens, in most cases. I am a towing operator, and we have four police contracts (City, County, State, Federal). The tow truck wasn't confirmed to be part of the scene, and it states that in the article. This is how it works in most states. Driver gets pulled over, found to be in some form of violation that requires the impound. Violation could be no insurance, no license, no registration none of which are arrestable in most states. Driver gets cited, and released, car gets towed. Or, driver has active warrant, or is DUI, or commits crime while driving, those are arrestable in most all states. Driver gets cuffed, placed in car, towing operator comes and tows car. The article says the car was pulled over for driving erratically, and doesn't say when during the stop, the shooting occurred. For all we know, the shooter fired when the officer(s) approached, and took off.

For BLS-744646, The United States Government, cannot go door to door, and take peoples firearms. The 2nd amendment won't allow it, nor will the 4th. Also, when the Constitution was written, the first ten amendments were regarded as etched in stone. That means, that the Government should not be able to alter those first ten amendments, ever, hence the name "Bill of Rights." The amendment process involves the people, and there are not enough voters in the U.S. to approve a repeal of the 2nd amendment. The Constitution was written as a contract between the elected government, and the people that it serves. The 2nd amendment, was put in place to allow people the ability to defend themselves, feed themselves, and create a permanent threat to the governing body, so as to kind of keep in check. However, over the course of many decades, we have allowed our collective power to erode. I don't recall which character said it, but -if you put a frog in boiling water, it will jump out, but if you put that frog in water, and slowly heat it, it will die-.....If the government made a sudden move, that was against the people, it would result in an internal war. If the government slowly takes the power from the people, the people will not put it together before it's too late.

(I posted this before the other information was available, so part of it isn't exactly relevant anymore.)

CBurroughs

Leatherneck,

Thank you!... I have not done the math, I and a friend were and are still looking for the site that had the actual info...

No need to thank me, just putting out the Truth about the Numbers. Unless you take into consideration the population of both counties it does look as if the UK is a safe place. Yet in reality its worse there then here. If you do this for every type of crime in the US and UK you will see that per Population we are allot safer then over there.

Great society we have. The majority of the comments in this first series is largely about gun control or the lack thereof. How about the officers and their families ? I view many of my fellow citizens as POS partisans. No civility, self-centered, BS spouting, toxic, intolerant divisive scourges who don't even wait for the entire story before shooting off their mouths. Not that that would influence their drivel. They already know what happened- sure. Can't wait to pontificate.

I live in southwestern PA, close to the W. VA. border, but not near Charleston. This incident revives a similar one we had in our town recently where 2 police officers were shot in a traffic stop. One killed, the other injured. A tow truck officer was there, but not injured. Worry about healing that community first and foremost. My sincere condolences to the family and friends of the officers. God be with you and all of our men in "blue". I am so sorry.

So let me make sure I understand....... we want to repeal the 2nd ammendment. In order to do that one commentor is willing to squash the 4th and the 9th ammendment? Might as well give up that 3rd amendment, we would probably need to house some National guard in an effort to get this done. That 6th amendment might become a bit of a problem later on as I'm certain a great many new laws will be broken. Let's not forget that pesky 1st amendment, probably need to modify that so we don't stir things up.

There is no magic wand to wave. You start eliminating constitutional rights, eventually you will lose rights you didn't intend to give up.

Leatherneck,

Still have not been able to find the web site, looked at the one posted above by 'Lookingforwardtothefuture',... Even after that and your math, I notice none of these name callers have had the guts to post back to me and apologize... Just Sayin', Go Figure!

P.S. I retract my apology to Sandtrich! But facts are in the numbers...

CBurroughs 4.2/100,00 murder rate in the US and 1.2/100,00 in the UK. It took 1 minute to disprove what you have said. Do you just make @!$%# up? Nearly 4 times the murder rate in the US vs the UK.

I don't agree either with the persons posting about UKs crime, but really Wikipedia isn't what one would call a reliable source by any means. Not to mention that's information from 2009 at the earliest, some as far back as 2006. Also, if you had bother to also look further, UK measures and reports their crime quite differently then the US. You also cannot compare us to UK. UK who's population is 62.4 million vs 311.6 million! The only way anyone can make comparison on any stat between them & the US is if everything measured was equal. Its not and never will be.

i dont know anything about the data of what country has a worse murder rate compared to the number of citizens is has or anything like that but, i do know im safer in my home being just as armed as the scum that do the home invasions and murder innocent people everyday! i know that if i go into a store and some pos comes in shooting, me being a licensed concealed weapons holder i have a better chance of getting out alive if i can return fire as opposed to being unarmed in the same situation and crawling around hoping i dont get my brains blown out by some criminal who could care less what laws are passed! so you anti gun nuts can talk all the data you want ,when it comes down to a criminal being armed and your not, you will lose everytime! me i took the time to study a 150 page manual and drove 2 hours to take the test required to even be considered for carrying a concealed weapon. i also have been a law abiding citizen my whole life, any felonies on your record automatically disquallify you from ever legally carrying a weapon. as does any kind of abuse charges against you or any childsupport that is unpaid yep even that will stop you from carrying. they dont just give concealed carry permits to anyone that asks.and as someone stated here isnt it better that the government knows who has the guns? if im licensed then the local police automatically know if they recieve a call to come to my address that i have weapons as opposed to the criminals who again could care less about your laws just buying guns off the street and the police have no idea coming into a domestic scene not knowing the person there has a weapon? and as most people that are for guns will tell you ITS OUR RIGHTS TO PROTECT OURSELVES AND OUR FAMILIES AND OUR LIVELYHOOD AND YOU CANNOT TAKE THAT AWAY!! just look at new york, they have a no carry policy and look how great thats going for them. it was just days ago when some nut with a gun opened fire at the empire state building. he didnt care about the laws, and as far as i know he wasnt a criminal before that incident. if some pos kicks my door in at 3am hes going to get blasted by my shotgun, what will you anti gun nuts do? talk him out of it? haha good luck with that. we will read about the outcome here on msnbc. tho im sure the details will be "sketchy" lol

I don't want to repeal the 2A. I just want to figure out a way to reduce the number of hand guns in the US.

Of course, Pistol Instructor, if we reduce the number of hand guns in the US, you will have fewer students. But we will have more people alive.

I think all the proud anti gun folks, should put a sign on their front door that says "there are no firearms in this household"...represent!

That is not really necessary. Most homes in the US do not have guns, and by doing a little research, you can see that gun ownership is more common in certain demographics. So a halfway smart crook should be able to already figure out which homes have guns.

i do know im safer in my home being just as armed as the scum that do the home invasions and murder innocent people everyday! i know that if i go into a store and some pos comes in shooting me being a licensed concealed weapons holder i have a better chance of getting out alive if i can return fire as opposed to being unarmed in the same situation and crawling around hoping i dont get my brains blown out by some criminal who could care less what laws are passed!

Can you tell me, how do you know all this? or do you just imagine it, or hope that it is true?

@CBurroughs & Leatherneck918

You guys may want to give those GEDs back. The statistics given were per 100,000 which accounts for differences in population size.

Making up facts and butchering basic math doesn't help the cause.

CLB,

I know that the UK reports differently, that is why I would like to find the sight I remembered and spoke of. Anyway wiki will do and alittle math is fine.

Dingle B.,

Duh!

To the Families,

My Heart felt sympathy goes out to you...

Man has been killing each other since the beginning of time.

Sandwich, using wikopedia for a reference? Alcohol kills more people then all violant crimes combined. I do have a creditable source for this information. http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm

Are you willing to make alcohol illegal also? Let me know how that works for you.

DingleB: LOL you might want to give back your college degree and Go to a better school.

Here I will help you out:

Population of the UK: 62,262,000 People/ by 100,000=622.62

Population of the USA: 312,780,968 people/ by 100,000=3127.81

What part of the US has 250,518,968 more People living Here then in the UK do you not get?

@ davey-526272

If you do a little bit of research, 47% of homes have guns. Thats pretty close to "most". So a criminal has a 1 out of 2 chances of getting shot.

again, NV won't let me post links for some reason:

hxxp://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.aspx

replace xx with tt

Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993

Majority of men, Republicans, and Southerners report having a gun in their households

by Lydia Saad

PRINCETON, NJ -- Forty-seven percent of American adults currently report that they have a gun in their home or elsewhere on their property. This is up from 41% a year ago and is the highest Gallup has recorded since 1993, albeit marginally above the 44% and 45% highs seen during that period.

Leatherneck,

Your math is completely wrong:

US pop = 312,780,968

4.2 deaths/100,000 = 13,136 intentional deaths

UK pop = 62,262,000

1.2 deaths/100,000 = 747 deaths

312,780,968 is 5 times 62,262,000, however, 13,136 is over 17 times 747.

We have 17 times more intentional deaths in the US but only 5 times the population.

Yet, with all that, I'm still against gun control. I just wanted to get the facts straight.

AND!!! Before you say more guns more murders:

Here is government documentation that shows murders were higher back in 1993 then today:

hxxp://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fidc9397.pdf replace xx with tt

The number of gunshot woundsfrom assaults treated in hospitalemergency departments fell from64,100 in 1993 to 39,400 in 1997, a 39% decline. Homicides committedwith a firearm fell from 18,300 in 1993to 13,300 in 1997, a 27% decline.

SO>>>>>>>>>>>> In 2010, there were 8,775 murders with guns verses 18,300 in 1993.

Any comments libs? More gun control needed????? I think not.

Liberal S.I.N. tactics:

Subject change

Ignore the facts

Name calling

Man has been killing each other since the beginning of time.

And man has also been thinking about better and better ways to kill each other. But that does not mean we should celebrate this, or proliferate all the great ways that man has devised to kill.

Are you willing to make alcohol illegal also? Let me know how that works for you.

Alcohol is a legitimate public health issue. But, how are alcohol and gun violence linked? I don't think they are linked. For example, are you offering to support gun control if I support alcohol restrictions? If yes, then I accept your offer.

Here is government documentation that shows murders were higher back in 1993 then today:

There was more crime in 1993, not just more murders. I don't think that data point means we should be satisfied with the number of hand gun murders today.

My curiosity is up so I took a look. Findings are:

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/science-research/research-statistics/crime/crime-statistics/

http://www.murderuk.com/misc_crime_stats.html

http://ukcrimestats.com/

Interesting reading material for those that are really interested.

And everyone who is against gun control, please copy my notes and research to use in future forums against these gun control people.

Davey-526272,

I'm all about registering and educating. I am all about common sense. It is so odd to me that in order to drive a car a person has to take and pass a written test and a practical application test and be licensed to drive. Periodically a person has to go a renew their driver's license. In some case during their renewal they have to do some re-testing. Yet any (currently) sober chuckle head over the age of 21 can purchase a pistol. 3 days later, provided he or she is not a felon or currently pending charges of domestic violence; they are out some where trying to figure out how to load and fire their new toy.

I'm for sensible gun laws. Many of my pro-gun brethren are appalled when I say this. "If the guv-mint knows how many guns I have they can come and get them!" There are people who have multiple DUIs and still own their car!

I don't charge anybody who wants to learn to shoot. They pay for range time and ammo. I teach them how to be safe. Now don't tell the NRA I don't charge for my services. The "R" really stands for revenue in NRA.

You are my kind of pistol instructor. A hand gun in the wrong hands can lead to disaster. So much can go wrong, from having the gun stolen, to being taken by a family member, to causing a self-inflicted wound, and, of course, an Aurora episode if the gun is purchased by someone will truly evil intent.

Obviously, many Americans keep their hand guns safely. But the damage caused by those who do not is mind boggling. How can we increase the chance that people who are competent to possess a hand gun can get one, while also keeping them out of the hands of the whackos?

DingleB

@CBurroughs & Leatherneck918

You guys may want to give those GEDs back. The statistics given were per 100,000 which accounts for differences in population size.

Making up facts and butchering basic math doesn't help the cause.

You have it right. Thanks for explaining per capita to the children of a lesser god.

hambone johnson;

Leatherneck,

Your math is completely wrong:

Sorry but NOPE yours is...

Population of the UK: 62,262,000 People/ by 100,000=622.62X1.2=747.144

Population of the USA: 312,780,968 people/ by 100,000=3127.81=13,136.802

Now if the UK had a population like the US taking the current rate of 747.144 and times it by the differnece in population that number would be 5 since the US has 5 times the amount of people.

747.144 X 5=(3735.72) would be the Murder rate of the UK if it had as many people.

Now if you make the USA have the Population of the UK

Population of the USA: 312,780,968 people/ by 100,000=3127.81X4.2=13,136.80 devide by the difference between the US and the UK of 5=2627.36

So if the UK had the US amount of population they would have a murder rate of 3735.72

and if the US had the amount of population of the UK they would have a murder rate of 2627.36

Again you have to take the POPULATION NUMBERS INTO CONSIDERATION when trying to make your argument.

@Leatherneck918 Good god man!

Please see #1.46

If it helps, assuming all the statistics reported above are correct, think of it this way:

US: .000042 murders per person

UK: .000012 murders per person

I'll keep my degree in Accountancy, thanks.

DingleB

Accountancy is the process of communicating financial information about a business entity to users such as shareholders and managers.

Financial and statics uses different types of math calculations Einstein.

BLS,

While agree these kills are traggic, they are certainly no grounds for taking the rights of Americans. Further, you advocate the government using their guns to take those of others, which is exactly why the fore fathers wrote what they did. Look at this for example:

You see listed the leading causes if death in the United States. From what I have found, guns represent about 1,500 of these deaths while drunk driving will be more in the 11,000 range. 250 of those will be children. Should be go back to prohibition? The accident numbers include vehicle crashes, falls and fires. These two are a large portion of that number.

While I understand your knee jerk reaction, uninformed statements like yours are dangerous!!

Number of deaths for leading causes of death

• Heart disease: 599,413
• Cancer: 567,628
• Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 137,353
• Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,842
• Accidents (unintentional injuries): 118,021
• Alzheimer's disease: 79,003
• Diabetes: 68,705
• Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,692
• Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 48,935
• Intentional self-harm (suicide): 36,909

Leatherneck918

It's okay, just admit you were wrong

.

Someone said...........
One thing you and some others have not thought about, if it actually came down to some type of Goverment push to take away people's guns. It would Divide Goverment Forces, not all would go along, divide families & friends and with the Weapons that are out here today, it would be One Hell of a Civil War...

The above statement is exactly right and we all know it. Many police officers are firm believers in the Second Amendment and many gun owners would never turn in their guns.

About 12,000 people were murdered using guns. This is about the same as drunk driving deaths. Guns are used in about 60% of murders. While 12,000 might seem like a lot it is a small fraction given all the other ways people die.
The Second Amendment will live forever.

DingleB: Nope not wrong sorry.

So if the UK had the US amount of population they would have a murder rate of 3735.72

and if the US had the amount of population of the UK they would have a murder rate of 2627.36

That's as closes the statistics you will ever get even thought they are not fully correct.

Reason why DingleB: is that several things you are not taking into consideration and I am.

Land mass, Food, Water, resources

UK has 241,590 sq. km of land.

US has 9,629,091 sq. km of land

So if you were to put 312,780,968 people into the UK to live, there would be major over crowding, not enough food, water or other resources for the people. Riots, Murder and crime would be ramped. It would be way higher Murder rate would be pushing 30% if not more.

If you were able to change the US population to only 62,262,000 People there would be more space, Food, Water and Resources to go around. So Crime, Murder and other types of crime would be around 3 to 5% only if that.

So going with my final statistics of:

If the UK had the US amount of population they would have a murder rate of 3735.72

and if the US had the amount of population of the UK they would have a murder rate of 2627.36

Would be way more accurate then your:

US: .000042 murders per person

UK: .000012 murders per person

do to you are not taking in account several key factors.

Again this is not financial this is a statistic.

bdjb for common sense

BLS-744646...

.....However, our second amendment rights is the only thing keeping the nation free

---------------------------------------

.....Excuse me, ever hear of the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines (also throw in the Coast Guard, they're a pretty tough bunch as well). I support the 2nd Amendment, I own 3 rifles, but when was the last (or only) time the masses in this country had to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights to keep us free, I must have missed that one, don't mention the Revoluntionary War, that was pre-2nd Amendment.

Pistol Instructor & davey,

I understand your intent with recommending "sensible gun laws". Testing, permitting, etc. I live in suburbia/semi-rural America, where learning safe, responsible handling of firearms was taught to you at an early age by your Dad, Grandpa or Uncle. So, I sometimes take for granted understanding the damage a given firearm can do and knowing safe handling practices.

A program that has been highly successful in the area of hunting, has been mandatory "Hunter Education Class" for people born after 1967, who wish to hunt. I'm note sure why that age was chosen, but it has reduced hunting accidents. And lets face it, many of those born after that think a car door can stop a bullet and have no idea of the ramifications of pulling the trigger.

The problem your train of thought is this: Those who need the training, won't take the training, will buy a gun of the streets in most cases and use it any way. And if an "Aurora psychotic" can't get the firearms, he will likely resort to explosives or something - Maybe run over a bunch of people with a SUV.

We will never circumvent the psychotic mind completely, but it starts with a family based education, which we are losing as a nation.

@ roadhouse ... Free from the tyranny of government!

@ Roadhouse Blues: ????? What is your point?

Canada, England, and France all have a lower murder rate than the US

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/oct/13/homicide-rates-country-murder-data

And, more gun control. Go figure. I wonder why all those crazy Canadians don't just build explovies or run over a bunch of people with their SUVs, so that their murder rate will be the same as the US?!?

Davey,

The answer is in the enforcement of laws we currently have. Prison is suppose to suck. Not just kind of suck. It should suck of epic proportions. I'm not talking about violating the 8th amendment. We give so many rights to prisoners. I was watching some documentary the other day about prison and prisoners I briefly found myself feeling sorry for them. Seriously?! A prisoner is not a victim of society. I haven't researched it for myself but I have heard that there are people who have actually improved their quality of life by going to prison. Seriously? I envision prison being more like 1st phase Marine Corps Recruit Training. There is something to be said for hard labor as well. Ever had to break concrete with a hammer? That's a big pile of suck. If it sucks bad people will avoid prison at all costs, there by reducing crime rates. But we HAVE TO enforce the laws consistently and equally.

I don't care that much about the UK and their laws. We barely speak the same language. Is there a stat for home invasions for the UK? Did this increase after guns were banned? I have a strong feeling that they would here in the U.S. We already have criminals that have little regard for the law. I believe that if a criminal had greater certainty that a home owner did not have a firearm it would be too tempting to pass.

I look at it like a coral of horses, if one horse gets out of the coral I go get that one horse. I do not make the coral smaller for the horses that stayed in the coral.

Roadhouse,

The Civil War was the last time, wether you agree with the cause or not.

Davey... stupid reply, Pistol... I'm with you!!!!

clb-462357

CBurroughs 4.2/100,00 murder rate in the US and 1.2/100,00 in the UK. It took 1 minute to disprove what you have said. Do you just make @!$%# up? Nearly 4 times the murder rate in the US vs the UK.

I don't agree either with the persons posting about UKs crime, but really Wikipedia isn't what one would call a reliable source by any means

------------------------

Seems you and CBurroughs are quick to disparage Wikipedia (CBurroughs can't even get the name right). Can you give us a clear cut, verifable reason why Wikipedia is not reliable, has this been proven, and can you give us a reliable alternative we can trust? It seems to me that those who share a certain political bent are prone to criticise Wikipedia, FactCheck and Snopes because these sources often present information which refutes (not to be confused with refudiates mind you) some of the outlandish stories and/or "facts" that they have attempted to spread, for example, the Brazilian Oil Loan. After reading much criticism of FactCheck.org, I vetted it via Google searches. FactCheck is a project of the Annenburg foundation, whichis funded by the Annenburg family, a long time conservative, Republican family. One of the elder Annenburgs worked for Reagan during his 2 Presidential terms in office. I find it a severe stretch of credibility that a staunch conservative family would suddenly all be infected with a case of raving liberialism, how about you?

Pistol Instructor

Davey,

The answer is in the enforcement of laws we currently have. Prison is suppose to suck. Not just kind of suck. It should suck of epic proportions. I'm not talking about violating the 8th amendment. We give so many rights to prisoners. I was watching some documentary the other day about prison and prisoners I briefly found myself feeling sorry for them. Seriously?! A prisoner is not a victim of society. I haven't researched it for myself but I have heard that there are people who have actually improved their quality of life by going to prison. Seriously? I envision prison being more like 1st phase Marine Corps Recruit Training. There is something to be said for hard labor as well. Ever had to break concrete with a hammer? That's a big pile of suck. If it sucks bad people will avoid prison at all costs, there by reducing crime rates. But we HAVE TO enforce the laws consistently and equally.

There's a winner in every gun death---arms makers.

LookingForwardtotheFuture

@ Roadhouse Blues: ????? What is your point?

--------------------

Well, I guess my point is that some people are too stupid to understand things, looks like, at least in one case, I made it.

Leatherneck918

You said:

The US has less Murders then the UK per the amount of people they have.

The murders per person is as I stated it in my post above:

US: .000042 murders per person

UK: .000012 murders per person

Mathematically, there is no arguing that:

(Number of Murders) / (Total Population) = Murders per person

Your last post changes the argument to something about population density and the effect of available resources on violent crime. You are diverting.

@ Roadhouse Blues: Yep, figured that would be your answer. :-)

bdjb for common sense

Roadhouse,

The Civil War was the last time, wether you agree with the cause or not.

------------------------------

The Civil War? The Civil War was an exercise of our 2nd Amendment rights (the cause is irrelevant to this issue)!!! Are you saying that without the 2nd Amendment, the Civil War would not have been possible, because I believe I would have a lot of people supporting me saying it would have happened anyway. I would truly find it interesting to have you explain the correlation between the 2nd Amendment and the Civil War.

Pistol instructor, i like what you said about testing hand gun ownes, and registering guns, and

Yet any (currently) sober chuckle head over the age of 21 can purchase a pistol. 3 days later, provided he or she is not a felon or currently pending charges of domestic violence; they are out some where trying to figure out how to load and fire their new toy.

I'm for sensible gun laws.

Your subsequent post seems to take a different approach.

You also said

If it sucks bad people will avoid prison at all costs, there by reducing crime rates.

Do you have any evidence to support this claim? Or is this just a hope that you have?

If you look at the Canadian experience with gun control, you will see that the reduction in crime will be immediate.

Oh, Davey boy! There you go again spouting off figures that you pluck out of the air again! You said "Most homes in the US do not have guns". Where did you get that info! I've already shown you that gun sales in the US are growing, adding 2,000,000 firearms a year to US housholds, and this is over the last 10 years. Everytime you throw out some ridiculous figures and I prove you wrong, you then deny you said it. Just go look at the other sites you've posted on. You're pathetic. And now you say "I don't want to repeal the 2A. I just want to figure out a way to reduce the number of hand guns in the US." You'll have to explain how that isn't an infringment on the 2nd Amendment. What your saying is 'I don't want to take away your 2nd Amendment rights, I just want to take away your guns."Can you explain the difference? That sounds like the same thing, doesn't it? What a crock! And then you have the gall to try to tell a man he shouldn't/can't protect his family against a home invasion? Who gave you any right to tell anyone what they can or cannot do? OK, I've been told by others that you're a troll and nothing I say is going to make any difference. You won't listen to reason and you're incapable of understanding so I'm wasting my time. So you go ahead and continue to make a fool of yourself spouting nonsense. I think the other posters on this site will see for themselves that you are an idiot and a troll looking to stir up trouble. Here's your sign! (_!_)

LOL!

davey-526272 = (_!_)

Paladin, I see that you do not have a lot respect for me. I don't have a lot of respect for you, either.

And that is putting it nicely. I do not think you are a very nice person.

You and I know that we do not communicate well. We just butt heads. We've done this in another thread already. You want to do it all over again here? And you say that I am the troll? Hey, who made you the Troll Police? The Troll Detector? The Troll Man? Are you the policeman of the internet?

You know, you gun guys are starting to play rough. You want to play rough? I'll play rough.

What would you do if your mother was killed by a crazy man with a hand gun?

Let's say that your mother and sister were in that movie theater in Aurora when that hand gun murderer came in and took out his hand gun and started shooting? And your mother and sister and wife were killed by that hand gun murederer? Would you then go on the internet the next day and say how gerat hand guns are? Because if you did, then that would be my defniition of crazy.

Lets' say that your mother and your sister and your wife and your daughter were in Tuscon AZ when that crazy hand gun murderer killed and injured all those people. And all your female relatives were killed by that hand gun murderer. Would you then be on the internet the next say saying how we need to make it real easy for crazy sonsofbitches to get hand guns? Cause if you did, then that would be my definition of insanity...Making it easy for people to get things that kill you. Darwin is scratching his head right now, wondering how you can possibly expect to continue living.

Or, maybe your grandmother, wife, sister, monther, and daughter were at Virginia Tech ...

Pistol Instructor wrote: "It is so odd to me that in order to drive a car a person has to take and pass a written test and a practical application test and be licensed to drive. Periodically a person has to go a renew their driver's license. In some case during their renewal they have to do some re-testing."

I'm all for anything that takes away guns from the bad guys, but having a system like getting a drivers license won't work. It's relatively easy to buy a driver license. Illegal immigrants buy driver licenses frequently. In Illinois, ex-Gov. Thompson is still in jail for the DMV selling driver licenses to people who couldn't get one legally and most of the money going to his campaign fund. There were traffic deaths associated with these illegal drivers.

Just saying, like any other law, only the honest law abiding people will follow it and criminals won't.

Sandtrich,

You are correct. Can we make guns just go away?

Davey,

Just a hope I guess. But Pavlov made it work with dogs. Again, the punishment of prison should not improve someone's quality of life. Criminals should not be able to conduct "business" from prison. Maybe I just watch too much tv.

The problem I have with looking at other countries in comparrison to the U.S. is that we have different values. The legal system is different. The UK and Sweden both have a lower DUI rate than the U.S. Alcohol consumption is legal in those countries. This leads me to beleive that their enforcement of the law in their respective countries is more effective.

Educate the law abiding citizens and punish the criminals. Not the reverse.

Roodles,

You are correct. Can't fix everything too many things broken. Let's start somewhere though. Anywhere really. As long we don't punish a law abiding citizen to spite a criminal. As a society we spend a lot of time wringing our hands and spinning in a circle.

Davey wrote: "

You know, you gun guys are starting to play rough. You want to play rough? I'll play rough.

What would you do if your mother was killed by a crazy man with a hand gun?

Let's say that your mother and sister were in that movie theater in Aurora when that hand gun murderer came in and took out his hand gun and started shooting? And your mother and sister and wife were killed by that hand gun murederer? Would you then go on the internet the next day and say how gerat hand guns are? Because if you did, then that would be my defniition of crazy."

Davey, how would you feel if your family members were the victim of violent crime and they couldn't protect themselves because of stringent handgun laws, like the 1-2 million people every year that protect themselves with guns?

How would you feel if you had kids at home alone that were victims of crime, unlike the 12 year old kid in Arizona who shot and killed a home invader to protect himself and his two younger siblings.

How would you feel if your family member was stabbed because no one was there with a gun to stop the crazy guy with a knife like the armed citizen who stopped a guy like that in a Utah store recently?

You want me to go on? I easily could.

In your other post you try to downplay the fact that violent crime has dropped dramatically over the last 20 years even though gun ownership has gone up at the same time. You said why should we be satisfied with the current rate. What else can be done? Violent crime is dropping every year. It's not going to stop all together. Or do you propose a gun ban like in Great Britain where in the first decade after the ban violent crime went up 80%. GB has a violent crime rate 3 times that of the US.

Davey, the weapon of choice used by the Aurora shooter was a shotgun. He entered with the AR-15 type rifle, it jammed, and he switched to a shotgun. I haven't actually seen one report saying he used a pistol, but many, including police media files, that stated he used a shotgun. Most of the wounds received by victims, were from shotgun pellets.

Roadhouse, as a former member of the United States Army, and from a long family history of Army soldiers, the United States military forces are designed to protect us from foreign invasion, or attack. They are not designed to keep us free from tyranny. However, the oath I took, said I would protect the Constitution, and the People it serves. The 2nd amendment is, was, and will always be there for us to protect our freedoms from a tyrannical government.

Are you saying that guns are the reason for the drop in crime? If yes, can you prove this?

I play the odds. The odds, based on crime data and not on surveys, show that if you die from a gunshot, it is about 30 times more likely that you were murdered, and not killed by a law abiding citizen with a firearm while you were commiting a crime.

GB has a violent crime rate 3 times that of the US.

Can you post a citation to the stats behind that statement?

The 2nd amendment is, was, and will always be there for us to protect our freedoms from a tyrannical government

Where does it say that?

@davey-526272: "being necessary to the security of a free State"

AND, if you say thats not what it means. Then what do the Forefathers mean in the "Declaration of Independence":

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,"

So this is why they gave us, individuals, citizens, the right to bear arms. Besides the Supreme Court has ruled numerous times in favor of what the Forefathers meant by this.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed

i don't see anything in there about "a tyrannical government". And, what the hell is a tyrannical government? Are you saying that everyone would even agree on what that is? Let's not even go there.

Hey, I'm OK with the 2A, within reason. There is federal law that says which kind of firearms are not OK for us to have, or that to have, you must pass many regulatory hurdles. I think that hand guns ought to be more difficult to get.

as far as the murder rate goes in the UK, they do not report it as a murder unless they have a conviction. so it goes unlisted until that happens .

Definition of tyannical:

1. Exercising power in a cruel or arbitrary way.
2. Characteristic of tyranny; oppressive and controlling

That is why you have dictionaries.

I added the Declaration of Independence for you. READ IT.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


We have the rights to Life, Liberty, and pursing Happiness. To keep these rights secure, THE PEOPLE, create a Government to guard these rights, BUT the Government receive their just powers from the CONSENT of the governed (citizens). Then......whenever ANY type of Government becomes destructive (causing harm or damage; tending to negate or disparage) of these ends ( Life, Liberty, and pursing Happiness).

THEN at that time, it is the RIGHT of the PEOPLE to alter or to abolish it and institute a NEW Government. Basically a "legal coup d'etat". LOL. It would be considered illegal by the current government, as it always is..........

"No one is the villain in his own story.........."

"Free State" is a free country. A "free State" is the right of the people. The term "right of the people" is used in similar context in the 1st amendment and 4th amendement.

1st: "or the right of the people peaceably to assemble"

2nd: "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"

4th: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects"

Declaration of Independence: "it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,"

Right on, Roodles! And Joe Johnson, please don't confuse Davey with facts. He makes up his own. The shotgun fact just blows up Davey's whole theory of more hand gun control being needed. The laws already on the books are not enforced. To make matters worse, even our own Government, Eric Holder (head of the ATFE), the Obama administration and the Fast and Furious debacle prove they are working together to make honest, legal, law abiding gun dealers do illegal sales to try to make them look bad. Not to mention Hilllary and her attempt to pass the UN Small Arms Treaty so the small dictatorial countries can demand how the US handles gun control.

And to Davey boy, no, you've got it all wrong again, as usual. You said "Paladin, I see that you do not have a lot respect for me." Wrong! I have NO respect for you. Why? Because you make things up to suit your own purposes! And you say "You want to play rough? I'll play rough." LOL! No, you're playing like a 3rd grader with your 'What if's'. I'll tell you 'what if'! If my wife, my 2 sisters, my Mother and my wife's Mother were all in the Aurora theater, that POS would have had 3 .40 cals, a .38 Special and a 9mm firing at him like he was the target in a carnival shooting arcade. I suspect it's almost impossible to fire your own weapon when you're getting 4 or 5 hits on your own body every second. They all have CCW permits and they practice monthly. Yeah, I know he had on armor but I'll bet at least one shot at him would have been a head shot! Have you ever heard of Front Sight, out in Nevada? One of my sisters is a master firearms instructor there and she trains the other ladies in my family (and me) when she is in town. So, don't try to give me any BS about them not being competent!

I'd challenge you to a battle of wits but I don't fight unarmed men. Besides, I can't help it and it's not my fault that the Dr. that circumcised you threw away the wrong piece. So, don't blame me. You're still and always will be an (_!_)

LookingForwardtotheFuture

I wish more people possessed your understanding of the constitution. I'm pretty sure my 9 year old daughter understands it better than some of these people; they actually teach it in her school, beginning in kindergarten.

I will never understand the mindset of people who are so willing to have the rights of the citizens of the U.S. abolished or infringed upon. Just because some abuse a tool is no reason to ban that particular tool. And yes, a gun, any gun, is nothing more than a tool. If we, as a nation, begin banning all tools that have caused deaths, where would we be?

Drunk driving kills more than 10,000 people annually. CDC statistic:

http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/impaired_driving/impaired-drv_factsheet.html

All fires would need to be outlawed. Fires kill close to 4000 people per year.

http://www.epicicorp.com/House%20Fire.htm

Hospitals need to be outlawed as well.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/11856.php

Hammers, screwdrivers, electricity, knives, swimming pools, boats, lakes, rope, dogs, etc. Even a person's hands. Any and everything has the potential ability to inflict injury and or death. If we start to outlaw all thing that have the potential to harm, we would have to make humanity against the law. No inanimate object has ever committed a crime by itself. A human was involved every time. It is not the tools fault. Stop blaming the tools. Place the blame where it belongs, squarely on the shoulders of those committing the crime.

BLS-744646 Why is it little girls like you fantasize about other men doing your dirty work for you.....If YOU think that all these guns need to be gathered up, door to door, pin a badge on and join the job of doing it........As an LEO for 15 years, i'm not going to do it for you......But you're welcome to form a posse of likeminded morons and go at it........See how it works out for you. Stop hiding behind mommy government skirts, and the lives of BETTER men than you........and put your own skin where your alleged principles are.

The fact is that there aren't enough FEDERAL agents to fulfill your fantasy, and most of us cops aren't going to do it......So deputize BLS-744646 and his fellow idiots........I bet he peas his pants just thinking about it........I've kicked doors in, I know how it's done.......BLS has watched a lot of TeeVee.......

The only refuge left for those who prophesy the downfall of
the State governments is the visionary supposition that the federal government
may previously accumulate a military force for the projects of ambition. The
reasonings contained in these papers must have been employed to little purpose
indeed, if it could be necessary now to disprove the reality of this danger.
That the people and the States should, for a sufficient period of time, elect an
uninterupted succession of men ready to betray both; that the traitors should,
throughout this period, uniformly and systematically pursue some fixed plan for
the extension of the military establishment; that the governments and the people
of the States should silently and patiently behold the gathering storm, and
continue to supply the materials, until it should be prepared to burst on their
own heads, must appear to every one more like the incoherent dreams of a
delirious jealousy, or the misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal, than
like the sober apprehensions of genuine patriotism. Extravagant as the
supposition is, let it however be made. Let a regular army, fully equal to the
resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of
the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the
State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the
danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a
standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part
of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to
bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of
more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a
militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands,
officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common
liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections
and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced
could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Those who are
best acquainted with the last successful resistance of this country against the
British arms, will be most inclined to deny the possibility of it. Besides the
advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost
every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the
people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a
barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which
a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military
establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as
the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people
with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be
able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional
advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the
national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of
the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia,
it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny
in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround
it. Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the
suspicion, that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would
be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be
to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors. Let us rather no longer
insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the
necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame submission to the long
train of insidious measures which must precede and produce it.

....................................................................................................................

Here's an excerpt from Federalist Paper #46 written by James Madison. I realize our population and military were much smaller then, but you can read it for yourselves.

It was reported on WTAP that the guy was handcuffed and in the back of the troopers car when he grabbed a gun and started shooting. It didn't say if he was hiding a gun or grabbed the troopers pistol. Either way,it sounds like the troopers made a terrible mistake.

Joe JOhnson: Roadhouse, as a former member of the United States Army, and from a long family history of Army soldiers, the United States military forces are designed to protect us from foreign invasion, or attack. They are not designed to keep us free from tyranny. However, the oath I took, said I would protect the Constitution, and the People it serves. The 2nd amendment is, was, and will always be there for us to protect our freedoms from a tyrannical government.

.........That's nice, and you completely missed the poiint. The post to which I replied said:

.....However, our second amendment rights is the only thing keeping the nation free

So, are you saying the Japs and Germans weren't a threat to our freedom back in the 30s and 40s? I only pointed out that statement ignored the many military personnel who have served, sacrificed and protected our freedom. By the way, I also served, my father flew B-24s during WWII, and my father-in-law has a bronze star and two purple hearts from the D-Day invasion, so if you perceive yourself to be on a high horse, please get off of it, there are many who have served but don't arrogantly flaunt it.

Also, if a tyrannical government were to try to come into place here, are you saying we cannot rely on our military to support us, that we can only rely our 2nd amendment rights? As you said, we all took an oath to support the constitution of the U.S. Which is it?

It was reported on WTAP that the guy was handcuffed and in the back of the troopers car when he grabbed a gun and started shooting. It didn't say if he was hiding a gun or grabbed the troopers pistol.

It is true that not all vehicles in police use are equipped with a 'cage'. It is also true that not all such installations are top-drawer, either. Some offer excellent isolation of the prisoner, others, eh, not so much!

Those things do cost money, so often they are not installed on vehicles that are seldom used to transport prisoners. Most city police cars used for patrol will have them, but it is not uncommon for cars used exclusively for traffic control to not have them. State police often do extensive traffic work but also a fair amount of patrol work, so in many cases, marked sedans will have a cage, but an unmarked unit may very well not.

Either way,it sounds like the troopers made a terrible mistake.

It has long been taught in police academies that there will be at least one firearm present wherever an officer goes while on duty: his or her own!

'Gun grabs' aren't quite the problem they used to be because some very, very effective retention holsters are now in common use that makes such an attempt to disarm someone using one extremely difficult.

Unfortunately, not all police equipment is 100% state of the art, or even the best of what has been commonly available, and in areas that do not have high crime and/or a robust tax base, this is often the case.

Let's also not forget that officers do too often allow themselves to become complacent after serving a number of relatively uneventful years. It is a line of work where surprises tend to be of the most unwelcome types.

PRINCETON, NJ -- Forty-seven percent of American adults currently report that they have a gun in their home or elsewhere on their property. This is up from 41% a year ago and is the highest Gallup has recorded since 1993, albeit marginally above the 44% and 45% highs seen during that period.

I wouldn't put too much faith in these numbers, as gathering the raw data is quite problematic when it comes to firearms. Certain demographic groups are represented by a disproportionate number of men who will tell a phone survey caller, 'Why, HELL YES, I've got a gun!'... and will also disclose to the same or a different caller when asked that they're frequent users of alcohol, or any other type of information that is used to put statistics together later on. At the same time, there are many people who own firearms, especially if for their own personal protection, who will tell a caller that they do not have a gun or else will just hang up the phone. They're not sharing that information with anyone over the phone, especially a stranger!

Big cities have a strong majority of homes without firearms, especially if their possession is tightly restricted or prohibited outright. It doesn't seem to affect the wrong people from having them, but ordinary people tend not to, if for no other reason than that there are very few suitable places to ever get it out and use it for training or recreation.

Many low-crime, rural areas are such where practically everyone has a firearm of some sort, and while not 100% of the households will necessarily have one at all, and some will not have one that is functional or maintained for use, very many will have one or more firearms that could be pressed into service in short order if needed, presumably for predator and varmint control...

...THIS is where people having guns stops crimes. Not at all from criminals being shot or detained by armed homeowners, but from people deciding not to become criminals in the first place, or at least making sure their crimes do not involve homebreaking or robberies. Many people will think about doing something like that during their lifetimes, usually while they're young. The first thing that stops most from actually doing it is that it's against the law or that it's immoral, the exact order depending on the person. Some will inevitably fear a very miserable afterlife should they do such a thing. The existence of police and other law enforcement agencies and officers stops most people from doing these things. If no one was there to chase bad guys, you'd find there were a lot more people becoming bad guys! But, the fact that in some places your odds of being shot and wounded or even killed by an irate homeowner if you were to invade their home is a very powerful deterrent. In a lot of these places, people don't lock their doors half the time. Most would-be burglars just aren't stupid enough to enter uninvited, unless they're absolutely sure that no one is home, and even then it's a risk many aren't willing to take.

For a better write up go to: http://www.wvgazette.com/News/201208290278

Actually Roadhouse, I may have misunderstood exactly what you were saying. That, I guess, is one of the things we must learn to live with when communicating through a computer. After reading your post again, and then again, I understood you to say that we have the military for protection, which I now know is not what you were stating. Yes, I would believe that most of our military, and law enforcement would support the people, more than a tyrannical regime. It is, however, the right, and duty, of the citizens to do the same, which is how the 2nd amendment was intended.

Ah yes, the tyrannical government. We already have this chapter in the history books of these United States of America. Recall the 1860s. The people of the southern states concluded that the US government was a government of tyranny. They decided to stop participating in it. They wanted to leave it.

Good thing they had their guns! Guns solved all their problems. No need to negotiate. No need to engage in peaceful disobedience.

Now, IMHO, there never should have been a Civil War. This thing that we call the United States government is not worth the deaths that occured in the Civil War.

Accoriding to Wikipedia, the Civil War "remains the deadliest war in American history, resulting in the deaths of an estimated 750,000 soldiers^[5] and an undetermined number of civilian casualties. Historian John Huddleston estimates the death toll at ten percent of all Northern males 20–45 years old, and 30 percent of all Southern white males aged 18–40.^[6]"

If I was you boys, I'd keep that talk about tyrannical gov't to yourselves. No sense in getting folks all excited with a bunch of war talk. Besides, can this country afford another war where such a large number are killed? There won't be anyone left to run the place after the war.

And you know, guns work just as well when they are widely available when there are no wars. Guns turn confrontations into deadly confrontations.

I do not understand why you have not concluded that the combination of risk associated with hand gun ownership and the fact that just about anyone can get a hand gun is such a dangerous sitaution that you do not want to do something about it now.

Those who take this incident to express their opposition to gun ownership are on the wrong track. It seems that the owner of the gun was likely the arresting officer. All those crime statistics that you are arguing about are skewed. We base our crime statistics on the number of arrests, not the number of crimes committed. It is possible that our officers are doing a better job of arresting criminals who use guns to commit crimes and thus making it look like our rates are higher. There is also no need to blame the officer who was killed for being shot with his own weapon. You are talking seconds here, not minutes. One quick grab is all it takes--a mistake? Maybe, but, if so, he paid the ultimate price for one single moment of a lack of vigilance. Have a heart people. These men died or were critically wounded. There is one person responsible for the violence and that is the perp. Place the blame where it belongs and there would be less violence and fewer excuses for those that are not capable of taking personal responsibilty for their actions.

@ davey-526272: Is this your final point???

Still say men have to work on their hearts........get the mind-heart connection to the source of all being going....then try your approach to reality again....just a suggestion since what you've been doing with all that fear and weapons crud and hate and violence nonsense hasn't been working........and there are enough of us now who've had enough to do something good and karmic about it.

absolutely, well, maybe, well, maybe not

what's it to you?

Why am I so damn important to you?

davey,

there is a book titled origins of the civil war, read it........slowly.......

a short 2A lesson for ya, the possibility of any government going bad as you say exists, so with the 2 A in place the government cannot just run roughshod over its citizens, they are all armed. Hitler took up all the guns before he started WWII and with the Gestapo in place the people could not stop him. the guns are not the problem, its the idiots who use them to do wrong. of course no guns mean no more crime right ? and criminals will stop committing crimes because hell man all guns are illegal yeah THATS what their gonna do.

I happen to think that hand guns are a problem. I don't worry about rifles and shotguns.

Hand guns are the #1 murder weapon in the US, year after year, far ahead of the #2 murder weapon.

of course no guns mean no more crime right

I never said that and I do not think that. So, why are you throwing that BS at me? You want me to read your book on the civil war, slowly? How about you read what I have said, slowly?

Guns prevent the goernment from running roughshod over its citizens? What exactly does that mean? Look at the civil war. Can we say that the North ran Mother Fking Roughshod over the south? Did the south's guns prevent that??? And that was a huge uprising/insurrection. If so many armed citizens cannot thrwart the government, what use are your guns?

hmm, pressed 'send' too soon.

read this carefully

We need better controls on hand guns. We need to make sure that hand guns are purchased by people who will keep them responsibly and not kill with them or let them be stolen and then used by criminals.

The precedent for this is machine guns. We have excellent gun control laws in these united states of america that have resulted in much reduced violence by criminals with machine guns. (gangstas). We need to now also raise the bar for obtaining hand guns.

IMHO it is pure insanity to let just about anyone purchase a hand gun. You're just asking for trouble.

You see the violence, death and murder that is done by maniacs with hand guns. Why are you satisfied with so many violent people having easy access to hand guns, which they will then use to kill innocents? What the F is the matter with you, that you don't want to do something to help this situation? Why do you love hand guns more than people? Are you one of the crazies?

davey,my friend,

the civil war

as you stated i agree, was senseless and could have been avoided, but gun control was not the issue,

the south did not rise up against the government , they just quit the union and started their own country. read the book you will come away with a better understanding of that part of American history which few people really understand, the war was one thing and significant, but what caused the war and the south leaving the union is far more important if we are to not repeat our mistakes. and since it was war the north did run roughshod over the south because well it was war. and as far as guns are concerned. look this up did you know that artillery and bombs kill and maim in war more than bullets?

hand guns

well we remove all the handguns per say, we will shift to rifles as the #1 murder weapon, remove those we will move on to shotguns, remove those were back to knives swords and whatever is laying around that will do the job.

handguns, do not fuel crime, there are laws in place to regulate hand gun sales, people are the ones who commit crime. removing some of the tools they use to commit crime will not stop them. period. make all the laws you want concerning hand guns and removing them from honest citizens will only result in us honest citizens taking the heat.

In the 1930s, the US gov't saw that criminal gangs were using machine guns (Machine Gun Kelly)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Gun_Kelly

So, they made it more difficult for citizens to get machine guns. Regardless of whether you agree with the restrictions on the purchase of machine guns, you have to admit that this form of gun control has worked very well. Machine guns are not a problem in our society today. Don't you agree? Don't you agree that it is a good thing that maniacs cannot get machine guns? Do you think that machine guns should still be as easy to purchase as a hand gun?

Please try to remember, my goal is not to stop all crime. My goal is to remove/restrict the tools that criminals use the most. To make us all safer. Because a bad guy with a hand gun has the advantage over an armed intended victim. If I am a bad guy, and I have a hand gun, and I want to kill you, and if you also have a hand gun, it won't matter. You are dead. So, why give the bad guy the advantage?

At least, if I come at you with a rifle, you can see that I am armed. If I come at you with a hand gun, you won't even see it coming.

I still want to know what you mean by this:

so with the 2 A in place the government cannot just run roughshod over its citizens, they are all armed.

Whaty exactly does that mean? Didn't the North run roughshod over many states, states with armed citizens?

davey,

its simple, the framers of the constitution knew then as now .......power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. so, they wanted to be sure that the government could only have so much power, this is a government by the people for the people. each person has rights and individual freedoms guaranteed by the constitution, but words on paper are not enough. the ability to keep and bear arms by each and every citizen keeps the government from doing whatever it wants. if i am armed and you say, hey i'm coming over to your house to take what i want and i say try it and you will be sorry, if i am unarmed you can just shoot me and then take what you want . nothing i can do to stop you. being armed ,i can fight back, the very idea that i posses the ability to do so if pushed too far keeps a balance between the government and the people . remove this right to keep and bear arms and all those other rights we go on about will be taken away. some say no, but i sure as hell do not want to test that theory

as far as the north running roughshod over the south, at the end of the civil war and people having guns and could not stop the north. remember there was a blockade, on all southern ports, the manpower shortage, and the ability to sustain war,(logistics ) you need to feed, clothe, arm, and supply your troops with a constant flow of supplies. by the end of the war this was not happening , the confederate soldier was as good as any union soldier, but your ability to fight war is only as good as your ability to supply war. the reason japan lost WWII was the very reason they started the war , a lack of raw materials. they were told by Yamamotto , if the war goes over 2 years we will lose for we cannot out produce America. the same with the germans, best tanks, best fighters, first operational jet fighter the 88 , best machine guns ........none of these matter if ya have no gas or bullets to put in them and you cannot replace your losses.

I do not object to armed citizens. But I do object to some arms. Hand guns, for example.

Your give an incredibly naive scenario.

hey i'm coming over to your house to take what i want and i say try it and you will be sorry, if i am unarmed you can just shoot me and then take what you want . nothing i can do to stop you. being armed ,i can fight back, the very idea that i posses the ability to do so if pushed too far keeps a balance between the government and the people

The gov't took whatever they wanted from the South, and that was huge. Lesser problems, like Waco Texas (Branch Davidians) and Ruby Ridge are solved much more quickly.

Sure, keep a rifle. Keep a shot gun in your home. Maybe you'll be like this guy:

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/04/13664055-wwii-vet-92-kills-intruder-with-single-shot-in-kentucky?lite

A high price to pay indeed.

Exactly. Which is why the morons in N. Orleans who want to be rescued from a roof because they didn't evacuate (as told by their governor and the POTUS) should sit and wait for the water to go down and rescue their own stupid selves.

ani4ani

Exactly. Which is why the morons in N. Orleans who want to be rescued from a roof because they didn't evacuate (as told by their governor and the POTUS) should sit and wait for the water to go down and rescue their own stupid selves.

------------------------------

Amen to that one, no one should be expected to risk his/her life for someone too stupid to listen to common sense.

Perhaps those "morons" don't have anywhere to go or the money to get them there. Just a thought.

@14...Refreshing post. Thank you!!

It has everything to do with Amendment Rights. The same officers that were shot, would have the duty to take our arms, should the government enforce such law as to elimate the right to keep and bear. That said, the rights of these officers was infringed upon, in the fact that their right to "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" was taken from them. However, should the Second Amendment be taken from us, mark my word, we would eventually lose the entire Bill of Rights!!!

bdjb: You are exactly right, the 2nd Amendment is there for one reason, to protect all the rest of our rights! This is a Country "by" the people and "for" the people (not the Government), give up your ability to defend yourself, your love ones, your property and your Country from foreign intervention or domestic tyranny, then you might as well give up all your freedoms and call it a day while kneeling to oppression in all it's forms. Just a note; have you noticed how all these incidents we have heard about involved criminals/gang bangers (Chicago and other places), crazies (Tucson, Colorado and NY) and people like this guy (unknown motive so far-possibly either or) yet it is a "gun control" issue infringing on Law abiding legal gun owner's rights and not the real problem "those involved" criminals/gang bangers and crazies. Why don't they point at them, those who care less about the Law (use every means possible) and those who have "documented" mental problems who were aloud to purchase weapons because Government agencies do not share information or there are no programs to address this in the Mental Health Community when it's evident, posting it on a site??? If you take out these two elements what do you think would happen, YES, a real reduction in gun related crimes!...enough said....

If we let the government take our guns we are sunk.

WBOY.COM

"The troopers stopped the suspect, whose name has not been released, at the Wallback park-and-ride on Interstate 79 in Clay County. When they approached the vehicle, the suspect started shooting, injuring one trooper and a tow truck driver and killing the other trooper."

Where did you get that information?

I think WychDr likes to start @!$%#...I bet we will se a comment on Obama, one, if not several, political parties, police being abusive, and, of course, guns..

No he is not starting anything. Do your research. It is reported on many local New sources that the subject gained control of the officers weapon. There was even a tow driver reported shot. SO figure the time it takes for the tow driver to get there and also do a little research.

Sgt. Baylous says during the
processing of Baber and the vehicle Baber somehow pulled a gun and shot both
troopers.

"Sometime during the traffic
stop the suspect obtained a weapon and as a result of that one of our troopers
is deceased and one is in the hospital with very serious injuries," Baylous
said.

The tow truck driver suffered a
gunshot wound in the shooting. He was later treated and released from CAMC.

...............................................

When the suspect was arrested and put in the back of a cruiser, the man grabbed a gun and shot both troopers, according to Sgt. Baylous.

Investigators say the suspect got out of the cruiser and then shot a tow truck driver who was called to the scene to pick up the suspect's car.

The tow truck driver and the officer that survived were flown to CAMC General in Charleston with critical injuries.

So do a little research before you call someone a liar. It took me all of 2 minutes to find the info I just copied and pasted above. It appears that the officers may have been careless in this arrest.

I must also add that I extend my condolences to all those affected by this tragic incident.

Bluepanther: You are correct we did see an Obama comment. Yours was the first I've seen on this thread. Congratulations!

Condolences to the families involved.

Thanks for the update fishman. Wow, talk about a huge lawsuit from the tow truck guy, that'll be coming soon.

SimpleSam the idiot the average gun-grabber playing troll.

He had a gun hidden, probably in his groin area WychDoctorGeorge. Apparently he confiscated the gun from either the deceased officer or the injured one.

Hard to believe - or could it have been that one of them had laid their gun in the back seat? One small mistake....

...Starting @!$%#..and by the way...when I commented there was hardly anything about what happened, so maybe you should check the time before you maje an accusation.

Almost everyone in West Virginia can shoot. Its a way of life.

I am so sorry for the families of the troopers. The WV state troopers are a wonderful bunch of people who work very hard with a relatively small budget for equipment and salaries. These men and women deserve everyones support, thoughts and prayers as they perform an extremely dangerous job to protect the public with very little thanks or support from the public. Yes they make plenty of enemies when performing their duties and a lot of people get mad at them because the broke the law and were the recipients of a ticket or arrest but the troopers are also human and they have to make decisions based on what evidence is presented before them. Sometimes they make a wrong decision but so do each and every one of us. They are trained continuously but unfortunately mistakes are made every day. I have family members who are troopers and I worry for their safety every day. I pray they will make good judgements and will not be on the wrong end of some maniacs weapon. I am glad the deputy shot and killed the suspect, it saves the tax payers the money to support the scum in prison and it definately prevents him from taking further innocent lives. I pray for the families of all involved and especially the troopers wounded partner for physical and emotional healing in the very difficult months the lie ahead for him/her. Last but not least I thank EVERY law enforcement, EMS, military and medical professional in this country who work long hours in dangerous situations to keep us all safe and healthy even when we are not making the smartest and best decisions in our daily lives!

Excellent post, Wiggles! Our WV troopers are the best, and it's very sad to think of losing any of them to any thing besides retirement.

Unfortunately Tag, your assessment of the criminal is probably way off base. The person was a 21 y/o, barely dry behind the ears, shooting inside the police car (with the weapon he had hidden)., so I wouldn't lend much credence to his expertise, but as Randy posted, practically everyone in West Virginia can shoot, but most of us do it only for target practice or sport.

I agree w/you. That position, unpopular as it may be, it's what people need to hear. There is no reason two cops couldn't even wound this piece of crap. Officers need to be prepared for this whenever they make a stop. Walking up to the window of a vehicle you just stopped is nothing short of stupid.

WBOY.COM

"The troopers stopped the suspect, whose name has not been released, at the Wallback park-and-ride on Interstate 79 in Clay County. When they approached the vehicle, the suspect started shooting, injuring one trooper and a tow truck driver and killing the other trooper."

It would do some of you some good to actually read all the available information before making things up or pulling info out of your hiney.

and what should an officer do after pulling a vehicle over for driving eradically? Pull his weapon out and shoot from 20 feet away?

Your statement Bill is pointless. Oh, wait, the point is that it was the fault of the officer to not use marshall law tactics in their dealing with the general public.

and Wild, when was the last time you were pulled over for a minor traffic violation and hand cuffed? Sure would P me O to be cuffed for failing to use my turn signal.

um...they have to get to him first...I'm no expert, but I DO know you can't just twitch your nose and the cuffs are suddenly on him.

WTF is your problem? Use your common sense...oh, and by the way, you weren't there, so you have no idea what happened, NOR do you know what you would do in the same situation.

@Bill Reed --- Dumbest post I've ever read!

Welcome to the misinformation section. Posting should be banned. Trolls live here.

even if these officers ,who by the way are doing their best to save the public from people like the pos who shot them, even if they did make a mistake that cost one of these officers his life, its still the criminals fault that the officer is dead of course. what kind of question is that? if a cop stops me and drops his gun on accident and i pick it up and shoot him of course its my fault . surely you can understand that shooting and killing an innocent person just because the oppertunity becomes available is wrong? you do understand that dont you? anyway so sorry for the loss of this persons life. r.i.p.

Why not get your facts before you open your yap Wildlobo? The man had been in handcuffs and the 9 mm was hidden on his person. He was not only driving erratically while drunk, but in a stolen vehicle. These Troopers were doing their job and doing it well. It is an unfortunate situation, but we here in West Virginia are proud of our law enforcement and won't sit idly by while some ingrateful know-nothing sits behind a computer and insults them. Thank you again WVSP for all you so bravely do. And FYI, the man had been in handcuffs, and the weapon he later confiscated, and possibly the handcuff key was from the probably then deceased officer. Feel ashamed of yourself yet? You should.

I am not sure anyone knows the entire facts of this incident yet so what is the point of blaming the victims. There is only one person at fault here and that is the perp. Maybe, mistakes were made, but it does nothing to lessen the culpability of the criminal that took the lives of the officers and destroyed the lives of their families. Personal responsibility seems to have gone out the window and blaming the good guys is the new normal. That is what is causing the violence. It is a choice to pull the trigger on another human being--a choice. I am a gun owner and I will take the responsibility for anyone that I unintentionally harm with my weapon. I hope that never happens because I don't point my weapon at anything that I do not intend to kill. I hope that keeps me out of trouble, but sh!t happens and humans make mistakes.

"What's Your Point"?

So who are your "other heroes"?

Question for you:

Are Real Heroes born or they are products of a controlled system? Or it depends on how high up the mountain you climbed?

Don't play "answer a question with a question" games with me, my son does that "why?". If you want to jump in, than answer my question first.

Are you serious? Do you live in WV?

You're high....

ROFL this happens everywhere.. why pinpoint WV? How hypocritical...

Yes, I'm serious. I used to live there. Why do you think I moved!

Because none of the rest of us natives liked you? HHHMMM?

You are definately backward thinking people. Thats why there is nothing there! Wva is not a place for an honest man to live!

At least they were smart enough to refuse to join the Confederacy and break away from the rest of the traitors.

Time to put the crack pipe down Randy and we're all glad you don't live here anymore I'm sure.

Its very telling that your glad I dont live there anymore. Seeing how you dont even know me. But, your not as glad as I am. Best thing that ever happened to me.

"Michele3974"

"ROFL this happens everywhere.. why pinpoint WV? How hypocritical'......

Michele, you are one pathetic lil maggot!!!....Really? "ROFL"?.....cops are shot and your stupid azz is rofl?....why dont you go play on hopskotch on a busy freeway, you dimwit!.

West Virginia has such a great reputation in the rest of the world, its known as "Meth Virginia".

um, James...I believe she was commenting on randy's post...calm down, hun.

Site your source before opening your mouth or computer. The vast majority of all State Troopers are honorable and brave men and women who enjoy their work and do their best to protect our citizens. Prove me wrong!!

Baylous also said the names of those involved in the incident would not be released until their families have been notified, the AP reported.

It's ok with you if they think of the families before your desire to know everything?

They haven't released his name yet. Not even here in town...

Evidently the troopers were caught off guard. So, why would a police officer allow a suspect to get close enough to get his gun.

WBOY.COM

The troopers stopped the suspect, whose name has not been released, at the Wallback park-and-ride on Interstate 79 in Clay County. When they approached the vehicle, the suspect started shooting, injuring one trooper and a tow truck driver and killing the other trooper.

No matter how good of a shot you are, if someone gets the drop on you,well, enough said.

"Bill Reed-1427585"

"Why is it the bad guys shoot better than the police? How do two trained, experienced professional police officers get shot by some deadbeat on a traffic stop and not even wound him? Then another officer gets wounded before he can kill the perp. Neither of these events should have occured. They should have been prevented"

Nice of you to criticize the police. Im sure you must have extensive training and knowledge concerning police procedures. Maybe you should suggest that every traffic stop should begin with police officers approaching every vehicle with guns pointed at everyones heads?...Police are decent, hard working, brave men and women, yet every time something happens, there's a joker like you that sits a thousands miles away criticizing their training....how about you just stfu or thank them for protecting your family!

What makes you think it takes talent to shoot a person at almost point blank range. Why don't you go out there and have someone shoot at you and see just how well you do in that situation. Geez, is there anywhere that people are not so quick to blame the victims? You even attribute the perp with expert shooting skills and you don't know the facts of the situation. That great shooter shot an unarmed man. A real pillar of the community I would guess.

"I can say from experience that it's easy to become complacent in a job where you deal with mundane, repetative tasks on a dily basis." So truewith all of us and in all of our lives.

Well said Fuzz. It is hard to stay on your A game day in and day out. A sad lesson for other officers, but a valuable one. They too have lost family as well as the victims. Regardless of the mindless blaming that goes on on these threads, real people have lost their lives and real people are suffering.

My husband worked for the Forrest Service until he retired and now falls hazardous trees for extra cash. I worry every day and hope he comes home safe. Some of those trees happen to be on fire. He is very good at what he does, but after 14hours, I wonder if complacency will ever harm him too. Thank you for your service to humanity.

You are really parinoid aren't you the only way they would use it against you is if you are doing something you shouldn't be doing. I don't see them running around trying to kill people. Everytime you turn around it is some idiot going off the deep end. If they didn't have them they would have to use their hands or tools. Atleast then regular everyday people could have a chance to defend themselves against the phsycos with guns that are out to kill people.

People have arms for many reasons. But those who intend to do harm to others are still able to get them and shouldn't so it is only the fair way just to avoid it all together.

Gun Contol? Ah yes, that liberal theory that somehow it is morally superior to become a victim than to defend yhourself and your family. Makes perfect sense!

Here is a TV station you might want to refer to every few hours. I've used them before. Read the article too, it's got some credible info or seems to.

http://www.wsaz.com/breaking/home/BREAKING-NEWS-Two-WVa-State-Police-Troopers-Shot-167774505.html

Don't need stricter gun laws? That doesn't do anything.

Murders with guns in 1993 was at 18,300; in 2010 there are only 8,700; 47% of homes now own a gun verses 43% in 1993.

So can you explain the reasons why there are 10% more guns 20 years later, but yet the murder rate by guns has dropped more than 100%?

deb...I seriously doubt whether strickter gun laws will make criminals behave any differently than they have in the past. We need to quit allowing our court system to make excuses for those that make the choice to pull the trigger on another human being without just cause. So, their mommy didn't love them, or they were bullied in school, or maybe they were on a Twinkie high. It is time to limit the amount of defenses that a person can use. Personal responsibility is no longer normal. Now it is called a Personality Disorder.

this is a guess to your question.......METH.

Well, Rob, maybe he was just a piece of @!$%# who hated cops and thought he could get away...besides, no one knows what exactly happened, so maybe you should try and be a little more supportive of your officers...you know, the ones that protect you every day?

I have had the need for some to come to me several times in my life...always there to help me and make sure I was ok. I am very grateful to them, and you should be , too.

@bluepanther20 good points and agree. In a variety of work situations, I've worked closely with law enforcement. The majority are good, decent men and women serving their communities and doing their job. Like any profession, there are some bad apples. Law Enforcement deals with extremes - periods of routine investigation or patrol, interspersed with crisis situations dealing with the worst of human nature, and the worst situations and scenes imaginable.

My sympathy to the families, fellow L.E. officers and community.

Rob...If simply being pulled over by a police officer triggers a fatal response then that person has more problems than any policeman can solve or avoid. Why are you so quick to blame the police officer for having any culpability for this perp? Maybe, mistakes were made, but there has been no indication that any mistake was made that would justify this driver's actions. Are you implying that it had to be the police officer's fault that someone chose to shoot him and others? Perhaps the guy had warrants out and just didn't want to back to jail. That would be a more common reason to try to escape rather than that the officer did something to trigger a fatal response. BTW....What is a "fatal response?" I would call it a homicidal response.....and, in the end, he lost...so did others, but he lost too.

wow...politics AND Zimmerman in one post.

freddy4life...Get one.

Michele, according to the news clip I posted above at #18.1 it was not routine. Stolen vehicle, reckless driving.

They initially pulled him over for erratic driving, they had no idea of the rest until they had him pulled over. Initially it was just a normal stop. I must have missed the info on a stolen vehicle prior to the suspect stealing the wrecker. I'm in Clay Co, I don't recollect him being stopped initially for a stolen vehicle...

Ah you are right, a stolen Durango, I had no idea. Missed that piece of info. Still, ya never think someone is gonna die.. so sad. Thanks for the info tho :)

Was just informed (via our Sheriff at a convenient store) that the 2nd officer has died....

Thanks for the info, Michele. I'm sorry for the losses in Clay County.

Not putting down Clay Co., but, wasnt that where one of the bodies was found in "The Silence of the Lambs" !

@!$%#...sorry to hear about the other officer..

randy..wtf...that was fiction...

Michell, I am so sorry for the losses suffered in your community. BTW, some officers these days regard stolen vehicles as a routine stop. Most drivers don't come out shooting. Those that do deserve exactly what this guy got...a trip to the morgue. I guess nothing is routine in an officer's work anymore. It sure is hard to stay on ready every minute of your shift--takes a lot out of a person to be on an adrenaline high for eight straight hours or longer. My condolences to all.

Where is that again?

I've got a solution for you, send them to Irag and Afghan, help building schools, roads, and bridges or maybe teach English classes for free.

Brilliant deduction Mario... The perpetrator is dead so no trial to begin with.

Thanks, but you didn't have to explain it to the rest of them.

Great Mario, It was a quick 5 seconds trial.