Remember the mass hysteria of the Cold War years when we wrung our hands, chewed our nails and obsessed about the Soviet menace and how they'd take over our country? For their part they told us many times that the United States would not be undone by them, but that we'd destroy ourselves from within. The increasing frequency of these senseless shootings strongly suggests that we are destroying ourselves from within and basicly circling the drain . We have no one to blame but ourselves.

Sounds like a parking lot shootout. More than likely back and forth on the text, facebook, about whose gonna do what, then it erupts in a face to face meeting of groups or gangs of kids or young adults. Unfortunately it looks like some of them brought knives to the gunfight. What happened to good ol fisticuffs,you put the guy down,give him his "what for" and that was it. Very sad how some people vent their anger today.

I could be wrong on my assumption,but just a note. I taught my kids to stay out of the "street drama" as teens as it can get very dangerous nowadays.

It will be interesting to find out if now this shooter also used a gun he purchased legally.

Tranquil Nihilist

The increasing frequency of these senseless shootings strongly suggests that we are destroying ourselves

Cite the source of your statistics. DOJ shows 3-5 "mass" killings in a given year for the past 20 plus years. The only thing that has changed is the instant internet reporting of those incidents. Even with those multiple victim killings total homicides, like all crime, is DOWN, the lowest in over 20 years.

Unemployed meatcutter wants backpay?

Chris,

Yeah, if you stop producing the guns, the criminals won's have as many to use - NOT. Remember, when you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. If you're going to break the law and have no respect for the law, what difference does it make how severe the law is?

Look at Illinois and particularly Chicago. Toughest hand gun laws in the country (thanks Senator Obama) and Chicago is out of control. Last weekend - 9 killed and 36 wounded. Only answer is allow people to own and carry. After the thugs get shot by citizens a few times, the shootings will stop.

Get you head out of the sand Chris!

Guns are used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year—or about 6,850 times a day. This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives. -- The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law & National Safety Council, Itasca, Illinois.

Oh my god I went by there this morning. It is scary these days.

@ newswhiner;

I am willing to bet most in this fight do not even know the difference in a conservative or a liberal, left,right.lol

Get a grip, most people are just people before their political beliefs. We have the right ot bear arms, within the law, just because some yahoos go off every now and again will not change that. When you live in a free society these things are unavoidable.

@ tranquil;

The increasing frequency of these senseless shootings strongly suggests that we are destroying ourselves from within and basicly circling the drain . We have no one to blame but ourselves.

This is nothing new sir,you just hear about it more. This was here before us and will be after us. I have many customers from Chicago and I asked them about all the shootings, most of them do not know much about it,and say it is only in one section of town, I seem to know more than they do about it.

Point is, that this is a "part" of society going down the drain, not society as whole. Quit being a naysayer.

ChrisWanker,

"What wrong with restricting the numbers manufactured?"

It would be a restriction on capitalism and free enterprise, and we can have that, can we?

Chris, you're wanking again! I guess there's no bad guys where you live, and you leave your door open while you sleep at night. You probably also walk late at night through ghettos, with a pocket full of money. You probably don't understand that PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE, not guns. How do you think people will kill people, if you take their guns away? Probably knives - maybe kitchen knives, so let's ban those too. Then they'll use baseball bats, crowbars, axes, cars, electric toasters, hair dryers, radios, while you're taking a bath, so let's ban all those too. Oh, while we're at it, let's ban rope, nylons, sledgehammers, nail guns, regular hammers - I could go on and on. I guess hunters will have to harvest their deer or elk with their bare hands. You are out of touch with reality.

News, thank you for your input. At this point I dont think they have said what his reason was. Who he was. Why he did it. Who he voted for. Anything about his beliefs. Maybe at this point the only thing we have is people making rash statements because they are bitter. You are entitled to your opinion. Please if you are going to make harsh comments about "another right wing nut" then at least wait to find out. Now, the funny part is going to be if he turns out to be a left wing wack job who was protesting something. So we will see in the coming days.

MADNESS is allowing these vampires to exist, the same ole BS about guns is just that. We should have silver bullets and more unarmed innocent people armed. The only reason these people prey on others, is because they are cowards and it is dark...it's time to light their way for a few seconds...

Police presence doesn't stop these acts of violence, shooting back does!!!

@newswhiner;

@Coral Taxi But it doesn't bother you that every single spreeshooting/terrorist attack has been by a conservative?

No sir what bothers me is people dying, especially innocent people, not their political affiliation. Please sir take my advice I gave you earlier, get a grip.

You seem to care more about politics than lives lost as many here.Very sad.

We should have guns!

No we shoud'nt have guns!

Yes we should have guns!

No we shoud'nt have guns!

Guess what? We have guns! Save your keystrokes,this will never change. The gun gained our freedom. With freedom comes choices, do we take these choices away because of the nutball's,or gangstah's wrong choices?

Not hardly

I saw it said a shooting at a grocery store in New Jersey, my first thought was: I bet it was a PathMark...

Yeah, we see how well that has worked out for NYC and Chicago, LOL!

Anyone who claims banning something works to reduce its use, much less violence, belongs in the remedial version of those who ride the short little yellow buses.

Then again you will have to create more taxes and agency to monitor and restrict all machine and hand tools that can be used to build firearms as they currently do in Russia, and China and any other gun ban fantasy paradise where they really respect their citizens rights eh, lol! Who is going to pay for those extra taxes, lets take a vote, all in favor of Wanker being financially responsible for such an agency increase, respond by voting AYE!

This is NJ you gun grabbing libturds there are no guns there. A state with firearm regulation that would make the Nazis blush how can there be gun violence there? After all they have very strict gun laws.

chris- a gun is a gun; new or old; and in 5-10 years we could all be dead because of a restriction on manufacturing guns.

Newswinner101

Excuse me, but Gabby Giffords shooter happend to be a registered Democrat.

It has NOTHING to do with political affiliation. It has to do with a twisted belief structure.

At this point, there is no information as to exactly what happened, only that three people are apparently dead. What will you say if one of the dead was attempting to defend him/her self from scumbags? Should he/she permitted whatever the perpetrator(s) wanted?

Can we wait until NBC at least gets some more information? It's not like NBC doesn't have an agenda atfer-all.

@newswhiner;

but someone has to put a lid on your party

My party? You do not know my party sir.lol Do you always label people the first 30 seconds of contact? You seem to have some issues yourself sir, I would suggest you take care of those before you attack or judge others.

No it didn't XDm9mm, Jared Loughner was a Republican and had known ties to rightwing political groups.

@Newswinner101

Does it matter if the person was a conservatist or not? Anyone could've been capable of this shooting. Just because a number of some shooters, bombers, terrorists, etc. happen to be Conservative doesn't mean that all acts of terrorism are from Conservatives.

Since nobody said so yet ... let me say it:

Guns don't kill people. People (with guns) kill people.

Coral Taxi - You are right. People have been killing people since time immemorial. And will keep killing each other long after Newwinner101 is gone. We just hear about every single time because it justifies someone's agenda in the newsroom. With the internet there is NOTHING we do not hear about. Not always a good thing. It's like crime did not happen before the internet and some people are not old enough to remember before the internet. Gawd that's scary. Hey - remember the newspapers? It just makes it more sccaarryyy! lol

Talk to the Hand

more restrictions on capitalism is needed.

Spoken as a true Moron.

Are you advocating less restriction? I see a moron here and it aint the other guy.

Violent crime has risen without exception in areas with the strongest gun control laws. The depravity of men's hearts is the root cause of the suffering. We want to control guns but pornography floods our Nation like sewage, we are passionate regarding the saftey of animals yet kill the unborn child. We want peace and safety yet are unwilling to force the foolishness out of our leadership, we are getting what we have created as a society, myself included.

sandtrich, ever get tired of rolling out the same crap from your mouth. Each time I see your name, I go and put on my boots.

Britain began keeping crime data in 1898, they had 1.0 murders per 100k people and no gun control.

2010 they had a murder rate of 1.3 per 100k people and strict gun control.

Uh why didnt that there gun control reduce violence?

Oh geez, their murder rates have alway been low.

Any person who believes a firearm is the root cause of violence has some issues.

The milder form of this mental avarice is where a person believes an inanimate object is sentient and has supernatural powers to load, aim and fire itself, this is called "FETISHISM" by the mental health experts.

The advanced symptoms of "FETISHISM" are where a person beleives that an inanimate object can use its voice or esp to command someone in close proximity to commit a violent act. Luckily for the public, most of these people who "hear the words in their head and must obey" are locked up for their and the public safety for being the loveable schizophrenics they are.

So save everyone the melodramatic pathological lie that guns create violence, it is a fabricated lie.

To those who are condemning guns, gun owners and gun makers, GROW UP! Take a look at the laws concerning buying or owning firearms in NJ. Virtually NOTHING is legal in New Jersey without going through a LONG (as much as 2 MONTHS) application process to purchase a bb gun, or even a kit to build a replica revolutionary war flintlock. AND THAT'S FOR EVERY SINGLE GUN. You have to ask permission from the local police chief to buy your child a bb gun. Guns are not the problem, the degradation of society is the problem. The lack of responsibility among the citizenry is the problem. Switzerland has a MUCH higehr per capita gun ownership rate (they actually REQUIRE all adult males to maintain an assault rifle IN THEIR HOMES), and they have less crime than we do.

LAX gun laws aren't the problem, LAX enforcement of those laws is. Hell, ATF is currently embroiled in a major investigation as to which moron supervisor authorized the sale of thousands of firearms to known gun runners and then ordered the agents in the field to NOT interdict them before they got into Mexico. That supervisor is guilty of breaking the law, but the DoJ and the President is protecting them from identification and prosecution, while punishing the whistle blowers who came forth about what was going on. It was called operation "Fast and Furious" and the liberals can claim that it was the same as "Wide receiver". It wasn't. Wide Receiver had transmitters in the weapons, and the knowledge of the Mexican government. "Fast and Furious" did not and had ZERO chance of doing what they claimed. It did have the effect of resulting in the deaths of hundreds of Mexicans and at least two US LEOs.

When we get back to holding people responsible for their actions from an early age, this country will turn around. As long as the youth of this country are taught the "If it feels good, do it" mantra, without regards to consequences, we're screwed. Want to stop the insanity? Punish kids in school in a manner that works. When they don't do their homework, or don't learn the material, don't promote them, make them redo the grade. The teachers are more afraid that they will hurt the students' self esteem, than they are about actually teaching them what they need to know to have REAL self esteem. High Self Esteem, without any accomplishment to go with it, is what leads to the mentality that results in people going on shooting rampages, defecating on police cars, and demanding that others who have actually worked to accomplish something in their lives provide a livelihood to those who won't.

These times are even worse than the Wild West. Keep your eyes alert and your gun ready.

Come on people, how times do we got to say it? "Guns do not kill people!"

People in anger, upset, depress, in hopelessness kill other people.

People in general need spititual help, but when a nation no longer believes in God, this kind of thing will happen!

Whatever happened to: "love thy neighbout as thyself?"

Treat others as you would want to be treated, this is all in the Bible, God's holy word!

The Bible also say that: "...the love of many shall wax cold..."
"Men shall lovers of themselves..."

Come on people, let us repent of our sins and get right with God, this is our only hope.

Have a good day.

@newswhiner...The only reason conservatives look crazy is the news spin. If a white man kills someone its news. If a white man kills someone with a gun its a better story. If a white man kills a black man with a gun its a great day for MSN. But if a black man kills a black man...(more likely than not, a liberal democrat) its not newsworthy it seems. If it happens enough its not news...it becomes the norm, then its just a statistic.The media has an agenda and you are falling for it. Don't believe me? Take a walk through Compton, or Harlem, or Detroit, or any other gang town. Go to these towns and take a poll, ask who they voted for, and their political affiliation. Then come back and tell me who you were more worried about, conservatives or liberals. That is if you live to tell about it.

the gunmakers arent ay fault here that is like saying whenever someone dies in a car the auto makers are to blame this was done by an individual if someone wants to kill other people they will find a way with or without guns

@ GA Girl (#1.18):

I applaud your statements. I could not have stated it any better. Bravo, Bravo, Bravo.

WTF people? I can't believe those that go on and on about how a person's political leanings are at the root of the mindset of a killer....are you that ignorant?

I am a bit of both...so I guess that makes everyone around me safe, huh?

STOP whining about whether or not the shooter was a conservative or a liberal, a Democrat or a Republican. That is the dumbest excuse I have ever heard.

Something was wrong with this person...you don't just go out and shoot people for no reason. He may have had a vendetta against someone working there, was a gang member, had a b/f or g/f that worked there...God only knows.

And please, ENOUGH of the gun bull@!$%#. If the shooter didn't have access to a gun and wanted to kill someone, he would have found another weapon.

People are dead...show some respect, and just hope it's no one you know.

Right on bluepanther20,

I think people who control this web site are the ones doing it, they are trying to stir up the people!

The news media and the politicians are just playing the American people!

shame on them.

LinPrinceton:

I spoke to god this morning. She says that Americans have simply gone off of the deep end and she wants nothing more to do with us. We are on our own.

trust_verify wrote: Cite the source of your statistics. DOJ shows 3-5 "mass" killings in a given year for the past 20 plus years. The only thing that has changed is the instant internet reporting of those incidents. Even with those multiple victim killings total homicides, like all crime, is DOWN, the lowest in over 20 years.

<<>>

I will say it again and again. "When guns are outlawed,only outlaws will have guns.

And you'll be wrong again and again.

Any person who believes a firearm is the root cause of violence has some issues.

No one is suggesting that firearms are the root cause of violence. Firearms are a highly effective tool for facilitating violence. That's what they're designed to do.

Britain began keeping crime data in 1898, they had 1.0 murders per 100k people and no gun control.

2010 they had a murder rate of 1.3 per 100k people and strict gun control.

And in the U.S. the rate is over 10, which is almost ten times higher than all of Europe combined. Correlation is not necessarily cause and there are plenty of counter-examples.

In Japan, where guns have always been banned, gun violence has been on a steady decline for over fifty years - it's a third of what it was in the 1950s.

In Australia, they severely restricted the availability of guns in the mid-90s and gun violence has plummeted since that time, including zero mass shootings.

So save everyone the melodramatic pathological lie that guns create violence, it is a fabricated lie.

Ok, then you can save us the manufactured argument that distracts from the real point: guns make it easier to kill more people, and the easier it is to get a gun, the more often that will happen.

When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns.

That is a stupid reason for people to die. That gun means so much to people that it makes them a person. Holding that power in their hand makes them complete. But when their insecurities boil over and they feel this power what they can do with a gun, they are the outlaw!

Didn't anyone read the story? He was a former service member.Who was depressed. He shot a 18yr old girl, and one other. Think people; he was only their two weeks. Some people don't handle rejection well, or maybe someone embarrassed him, you know the thing the new generation kills for. Respect. What we need is the same thing our government gives to every other country. More guns! If they are going to arm their armies, then I will want to arm myself. Understand?

It is indeed a very crazy world we live in... :(

Hey Tim, good to see the doctors let you have access to the internet again, how is Bellview these days?

Oh, you mean the murder rate of 4.8 in 2010 as the FBI UCR clearly states?

Oh thats right, hey everyone, tim believes inanimate objects have supernatural powers to force people to commit suicides. Now now tim, the doctors said you need to stay on your meds, so just like Loughner you can come to realize just how sick you are and eventually plead guilty when you finally decide to go postal as anti gun extremists are wont to do.

Yeah, sad how tim believes an inanimate object is the root cause of violence.

Yeah, horrible that Australia from 1996 to 2007 went from 312 murders to 266, but no proof that gun control was the reason for such a reduction. That is a 14.75% reduction in murders with strict gun control.

While in the US during the same time, 19,645 murders to 17,128, which is 17,128/19645 = 12.92% reduction

Even more sad how that has continued in 2010 19,645 murders to 14,748, which is 14,748/19,645 = 25% reduction in murders. Uh dude, how is that possible, more firearms, yet our murder rates are dropping faster than the Australians with strict gun control, yet again, no answer from the antis other than a lame diversionary tact.

Australia 1996 the year before they implemented strict gun control, 145,902 violent crimes reported population 18.07 mil

(145,902 / 18.07 mil'0 x 100,000 = 807 VCR per 100k people

2007 215,208 violent crimes reported population 20.967 mil

(215,208 / 20.697 mil) x 100,000 = 1,039 VCR per 100k people

US 1996 636 VCR per 100k people

US 2007 471 VCR per 100k people

471/636 = 25.95% reduction in violent crime

So solly chawrie 2010 403/636 = 36.64% reduction in violent crime in the US.

Sad how Australia is 1,039 VCR/471 VCR = 2.21 times more violent than the US in 2007

But hey, replacing murders using firearms with knives has really reduced that there violence in Australia, ROTFLMFAO, uh yeah right.

Yawn, so explain again, how focuing your irrational bias against the law abiding firearms owners has done anything to reduce the violent crime in the US when over 92% of deaths are attributable to career crimianls and gang members, and suiciders?

Oh thats right, hey everyone, you must accept as fact, tims unsubstantiated pleas, whines, and claims as irrefutable fact. But be aware it will take massive doses of the progressives favorite elixir prozac/lsd laced koolaide at minimum 40% mix ratio to believe such fantasies, probably 10 gallons a day.

Guns don't Kill people, People Kill people, Corporations are People my friend..Mitt

BTW my Obama/Binden Tee shirt was made here in the U.S.A.

Coral, I just got done explaining that Liberals care about others

...as long as they are liberals, as you have proven repeatedly with your posts.

I never really cared about politics until the last couple years of my 48 on this earth. What I have learned, beyond any doubt, is that a liberal is anything but. They are the most intolerant, hateful political group that piles on and attacks like rabid dogs anyone or anything that does not meet their standards.

That shooting was also something that he had been planning for a while which makes it all the more reason to believe that he WAS a registered Republican but changed to an independant so that he could carry out the shooting.

Say anything to justify your hate, eh?

Spudbucket-6393332....best post of the year...my hat is off to you sir!!

Reading these posts… the only one of you that seems capable of “losing
it” and going on a shooting spree is newswinner... hum... makes you wonder :)

Oh, you mean the murder rate of 4.8 in 2010 as the FBI UCR clearly states?

No, I mean the CDC firearms homicide rate for 2009 of 10.2 per 100k.

Read the study I posted. Statistics from independent organizations clearly show again and again a dramatic skewing towards much higher rates of firearms violence in the U.S. then anywhere else in the developed world. I'm not going to debate that against your home-made tragically biased personal analysis.

Hey Tim, good to see the doctors let you have access to the internet again, how is Bellview these days?

And talk to me when you learn to talk like a grown up, and not a child. I have better things to do with my time than to debate someone who chooses to talk like an adolescent on a subject as important as this. You might consider how your demeanor in these discussions compromises your credibility. Why should we even listen to someone who talks like that?

Answer that one first, if you will.

I generally am conservative in my voting habits, but I do not understand the obsession with guns in this culture. We act like we're afraid a government entity is on the verge of swooping down on us in a violent fashion. I understand the intellectual possibility of that--but where is the clear and present danger?

The clear and present danger is in our daily lives. Going to the supermarket and movie theatres and school. People are becoming unhinged, unable to cope with life's common disappointments. We need to address what it is in our culture and familiy life that is creating so many people like this?

Many of these people are mentally ill and on the edge already. Why are they walking around? Why are allowed to own guns? Between this and the out of control child porn and porn in general which we seem unable to muster the courage to control because of political ideologies, we are unravelling as a society. Not to mention our drugs of choice. Our democracy is killing us. In order for democracy to work, as the founding fathers noted, you must have a people of strong character and mental health who are able to govern themselves. This is what we are losing.

When someone shoots and kills one of YOUR loved ones, I doubt you will think how great it is to own a gun. It is time to stop the madness and time to get rid of all guns.

This violence has been growing recently in all corners it seems. In my own city we've seen a 200% increase in gun violence since last year. I blame this desperation on the recession as well as increased political and social unrest.

Lisa: I agree with you on many points, except your stance on weapons. You chose one point the founding fathers made, but want to ignore another.

Bob: You need to understand that the "Founding Fathers" were not gods and were products of a time that is now far behind. They make mistakes and probably didn't foresee Americans getting mowed down by their fellow citizens, who wield highly lethal weapons and protect themselves with impenetrable body armor that even law enforcement weapons can't penetrate. They were primarily concerned with protecting themselves from what was largely a broken government with a barely legal military. This is not the case now.

If anything, if the founding fathers were in our time, they would limit those dangerous weapons, the same way they limited their dangerous government.

@Emanuel-0684 - The UK has approximately 11,072.76 miles of coastline comprised of cliffs, marshes and many other types of coastline, England only has 5, 581 miles of that coast, but it is on an ISLAND. Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK that shares a land border with another sovereign state—the Republic of Ireland. The US on the other hand has 3,987 miles of border with Canada (the longest UNDEFENDED border in the world) and 1,951 miles of border with Mexico (which is POROUS). So the US has in total 5,938 miles of border that is undefended or porous due to the limited defense capabilities.

The point is many make a claim stating that England is the model for how gun bans should work. They are an island, with easier to control borders than what we have, and a Navy that can easily circumnavigate their country to do so. If we can't stop hemorraging PEOPLE across our borders, do you really think guns will stop?

@Newswinner101 There are many cases of "liberal" terrorists as well. To name a few: Floyd Lee Corkins II, Bill Ayers, Terry Robbins, Bernadine Dohrn, Brett Kimberlin, Operation Pink (bombed military recruiting offices), etc..... just have to look for them.

Now remember, you can't use the excuse that "yeah but overall liberals don't...." because you are using the same generalization for conservatives. So based on your reasoning, the few whack-a-dos that commit terrorist acts for the liberal side of the coin help all liberals get labeled whack-a-dos. I don't condone any violent acts unless they are in defense of my family or my nation, and then all bets are off, I consider myself a conservative person, but I don't hate or commit violence on anyone (ergo, NOT a terrorist). Generalizations use terminology to incite anger and an us vs. them mindset. Last I checked, United we stand, divided we fall...... we are looking pretty divided when we only assume our side is right. (Note: I never said either was right or wrong, just throwing out facts)

Just sayin'.

Hopefully all that were affected by this tragedy, regardless of their political affiliations, will recover and be able to cope with this atrocity.

Journal: I am under no delusions about the men of the 1700's. However your opinion as to the why and what for it is that they wrote what they did can be interpreted differently depending on ones own views. I agree with the citizen militia being "well armed" to prevent oppression. You want to rely on government forces to protect you only. I also believe the colonists needed protection from roaming bands of criminals, Indians, and foreign powers. That is not so different than today my friend.

We lead the world in arms manufacturing---we're #1!!!! Stop the killing, now

journal journal: You need to understand that it would be highly unlikely that they would limit anything since the main reason for the Second Amendment was so that the people had a way to rise up against a tyrannical government. That is the primary purpose of the Second Amendment secondary is so the people can help in case of invasion, protecting one's family, self, property, food and for sport. Also you need to remember their idea was the people be armed with the same weapons as the military had for the purpose of being able to rise up against the government. Remember that some of the Founding Fathers had their own army, cannon's and ships, but their idea for the Second Amendment is just a valid today as it was when it was written.

On a different note I think if the Founding Fathers were alive today they would be ashamed of what this country has become. Ashamed of how the people now want big nanny government to take care of them. Ashamed of how people want to change the very thing they fought and died for that is the foundation of this country. Ashamed of the government telling people what they have to buy and would probably say the people of today's time don't deserve what was bought and paid for by their sacrifices.

sandtrich

To the makers of guns----the blood remains on your hands. Our great thanks for you and the NRA, (your marketing shill), for being part of population reduction by proxy.

Those would be the SAME manufacturers who make firearms for the US military and law enforcement. So your statement equates GM, FORD, Chevy to contributing to all the DUI deaths. Those same automakers manufacture vehicles for the US military and law enforcement. You already complain about the high costs involved in military and law enforcement. I can only imagine how much a police issue firearm would cost of not for all the other people who buy them.

He probably ate som bad tuna.

On a different note I think if the Founding Fathers were alive today they would be ashamed of what this country has become.

T-bird: They would probably be shocked that people were so insistent in clinging to the "old ways" that they couldn't see what was right in front of them. You really think people are going to "rise up against the government" in this day and age? What happened to, I don't know, democracy. This isn't a third world country any more. We don't need to violently "rise up" against the government, that's what voting is for. We don't need to violently protect ourselves from oppression, we have courts for that. And we DON'T need to protect ourselves from roving bands of angry native americans. I laughed when I read that. Seriously.

We don't need to protect ourselves from invasion, that's what the, what's it called again... military... is for. Right remember that? The military?

Open your eyes, you're living about 300 years in the past. The founding fathers are dead. They're thoughts and reasoning are now outdated. It's time to move on. Deal with reality now with solutions that apply for now.

I imagine the NRA is thrilled by this news! Every mass murder and random killing means more senseless firearms purchases! Every new gun owner is a potential NRA member, you know! Ka-ching!

The NRA also knows every victim of gun violence brought their untimely end upon themselves because if they were only carrying a handgun or an assault rifle they would have been able to defend themselves from the murdering bastard who was exercising his Constitutional right to bear arms! These are great times for the NRA and the immature wannabe Rambos who form their membership!

The only losers are the 30,000+ people who die each year in the US from gun violence, unfortunately, but the NRA refers to them as "collateral damage in the defense of the Second Amendment"...it sounds better than "slaughtered mothers, brothers, sisters, fathers, and children", doesn't it?

I think I'm going to take my vacation in Afganistan where it's safe !! I love all this talk : if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns , yeah they keep repeating that ..but it doesn't make it true !

Tim, CDC???? You've got to be kidding me! Try thr FBI for the real numbers rather than a biased anti-gun organization that states the FBI does not have all the data because not all gun deaths are reported?????

Also, the analysis presented is directly from tyhe FBI dtabase, look it up before you exhibit your bias and try to deny a completely and factually substantiated position.

Real hard oh insane tim not to be sarcastic when you have to keep pointing out the other person is continuously lying like you do. Keep repeating your lies and you get treated like the child who keeps saying, but I wanna, I wanna, its not fair using facts I cant refute.

Ok dumb dumb, in large letters and spoken slowly so you can keep up THE FBI UCR MURDER RATE FOR 2010 IS 4.8 PER 100,000 PEOPLE.

YEAR POPULATION VIOLENT CRIMES REPORTED RATE MURDERS RATE per 100k people

2010
308,745,538
1,246,248
403.6
14,748
4.8

Of which only Information collected regarding type of weapon showed that firearms were used in 67.5 percent of the Nation’s murders, which means that only 9,955 murders were by illegal use of a firearm

IN ORDER FOR THAT TO EQUAL 10.2 THAT WOULD REQUIRE 31,340 MURDERS.

14,748/4.8 = 3,072.5 x 10.2 = 31,339.5 MURDERS

YOU CANT REFUTE THE MATH, YOU CANT REFUTE THE SOURCE.

THE CDC 10.2 INCLUDED SUICIDES DUMB DUMB.

Sailcat, your insane also as your freaked out enough to believe an inanimate object is the root cause of violence. You have a room next to insane tim who am sure the doctors will up his doage now?

But hey, your morally bereft anti gun extremists believe it is preferable to have an exponentially higher number of people who survive suicides because they used a less effective method.

Firearm 90% effective.

Starngulation 70% effective.

Falls 50% effective.

Overdose 2% effective.

Now since 50% of those who commit suicide or attempt to which exceed 500,000 attempts each year, why dont you insane worms do the numbers. Then get on your immoral horses to explain to all those additional familys were firearms not available, how it is better their brain damaged family member, a result of oxygen deprivation to the brain by strangulationm, blunt force, or chemical action, is a constant reminder to them as they care for them until their unfunctional lives mercifully end.

The data is in the CDC database, you know where that is eh tim?

How unevolved and cruel you antis are.

Here's Nit-Wit Mitt's take on control in his words: "We need a president who will enforce "current" laws not create new one's that only serve to burden lawful gun owners. President Obama has not...I will." (What a bonehead statement.)

Then Mitt said: "We need a president who will stand up for the rights of hunters and sportsmen and those who seek to protect their homes and their families. President Obama has not." WTF?! (Two bonehead statements)!

And finally, RoMONEY said: "If we're gonna safeguard our 2nd Amendment it's time to elect a president who will defend the rights President Obama ignores or minimizes." Really Mitt? What? Now you think the President is secretly planning to make all firearms illegal and have them confiscated or something?

How about RoMONEY and Lyin' Ryan (AKA The Bobble-Heads) tell the family members who lost loved ones in the theater in Colorado, and everywhere else these past years? Heaven forbid tighter gun control measures be put in place and "burden" the lawful gun owners.

RoMONEY is a "Corporate Tool." I think Clint Eastwood gave ol' Nit-Witt some acting pointers, because he sure has his lies...er..."lines" down pat.

"These times are even worse than the Wild West. Keep your eyes alert and your gun ready."

♪♫Heading for the nineties, living in the eighties.

Screaming in a back room, waiting for the big boom.

Give me give me wild west. Give me give me safe sex.

Give me love. Give me love.

Give me time to live it up.

She's so mean, but I don't care.

I love her eyes and her wild wild hair.

Dance to the beat that we love best.

Heading for the nineties. Living in the wild wild west.

The wild wild west. (Wild west!)♪♫

Journal: I've got some more chuckles for you. In contrast to the roaming band of Indians. We can substitute the word gangs. Does this fit in better with the modern era? Technically in description they are very similar. I made an observation; and in my opinion you seem to dismiss anything that does not agree with your position. However wrong and misguided it is. "What is old." "Is new again". Ben Franklin; The way to wealth.

Chris from Yucaipa
"Look at Illinois and particularly Chicago. Toughest hand gun laws in the country (thanks Senator Obama) and Chicago is out of control."

It sorta doesn't work when you can drive for an hour and buy one from the state next door. So don't try the tough laws don't work, bullsh*t.

Then why haven't cities in states where you don't have to drive for an hour seeing the same spike in murders. Why haven't other cities with million plus populations, especially in states that have tight gun control laws seeing the same spike? Do you see the increase in the rate of murder in NYC or LA?

Blaming less restrictions in other states is also BS.

" "What is old." "Is new again"."

Gee, I hope that doesn't happen with the clothes. Franklin-era fashion SUCKED.

According to the article the suspect went out to his car to get his AK-47.

What kind of supermarket shelf-stocker keeps an AK-47 in his car at all times?

And why?

What possible spur-of-the-moment situation might arise that would lead someone to say "If only I had my AK-47 with me..." ?

Journal: I've got some more chuckles for you. In contrast to the roaming band of Indians. We can substitute the word gangs. Does this fit in better with the modern era?

Thanks that did make me chuckle. Does the word "police" ring a bell. Last I heard, the police were the ones charged with law enforcement, not you.

Of course, you want to keep your high powered weapons just in case you need to shoot a police officer or some other member of our men in uniform. Talk about backwards reasoning. I'm sure the police in America would love to see restrictions on your guns as much as they want to get the guns out of the hands of the angry brown-skinned bands of roving tribals.

"angry brown-skinned bands of roving tribals."

Is that those-of-us who R dark-brown or those-of-us that R just slightly tanned? Just curious.....

I doubt Bob really cares. :) He'll kill them all if they set foot on his property, right Bob? And the same goes for any law enforcement that tells him he can't. After all, that's what the 2nd Amendment gives him the right to do.

Most of the guns in New Jersey and New York are bought in Pennsylvania - go check out PA's gun ownership laws.

An AK-47? Paranoid much?

journal journal: No they would be ashamed of people like you who want to change the very foundations of this country. You can't see that even though we are a Constitutional Republic they gave us further safe guards in case the government turned tyrannical. It is a last resort but it's there to safeguard the Constitution and what it stands for and the people of this country. Do you think for one instant that if the government of this country turned tyrannical the people wouldn't rise up? Why do you think that during times of war in the 20th century we haven't ever been invaded? Wasn't because of the military (btw I am ex-military) it's a simple fact of the enemy knowing that there would be people with guns behind every blade of grass. No their thoughts and reasoning isn't outdated and neither is the Second Amendment. With the way the government is doing now it wouldn't surprise me at all that maybe not in my time buy my children's time that the people will actually have to rise up and remove a power hungry government.

You and people like you thinking oh voting solves everything, that big nanny government/courts/voting will protect you and there would never be a reason to rise up against the government are fools. You forget that Adolf Hitler was duly elected, implemented some of the first gun control laws in the world then when he knew where they were all at he lowered the boom. Oh they had courts too and it didn't do them one damn bit of good either. Guess what they couldn't vote him out either after he got elected so there goes your "that's what voting is for" bs.

People like you make me sick you spit on the very thing that has been bought and paid for with the blood of the Founding Fathers, the militia you know the average farmers that rose up to help and the people in the Military, that has given you the freedom to speak your idiocy. If you don't like what the Constitution or the Bill of Rights stand for then you can move to where you can't enjoy these freedoms and I say you know where the door is don't let it hit you in the ass on the way out.

journal journal: No they would be ashamed of people like you who want to change the very foundations of this country.

This country was not founded on the 2nd amendment. The 2nd amendment was was part of a broader document that has been changed DOZENS of times. You think that just because the founding fathers said it, then it should be law forever.

This is never the case. Times change, people change, governments change with them. Get over it.

RLee,

I suspect that the difference between your number and mine is that this time you're excluding suicides whereas previously you insisted on including them. No matter.

Your personal calculations don't matter, no matter how basic you think they are. Independent studies have demonstrated that there is a problem with gun violence in this country,and the solution is not more guns.

The question is how to we correct the problem of gun violence, not how do we try to justify it.

Journal: I gave historical facts that were happening in the 1700 hundreds. I have not played your game of stereotypes. As to my high powered weapons, they are not high powered enough to suit me. You imply I want to kill law-abiding Americans. When what I said in simpler terms so even you will not misconstrue is I will defend myself against criminals, groups of gangs, and foreign Jihadists.

P.S. U don't say: The way to wealth is a book that is revelent to these times. Also I'm tanned and redskinned with white mixed in. We still have the buckles and the boots, some things never go out of style.

Journal Journal,

This is how it works in Missouri. I walk into a store and tell the clerk that I'll take a glock 17 9mm. Also have them grab me a 33 round magazine and a few hundred rounds of +P Hollowpoints.

I then decide that I'll take a S&W AR-15 Rifle, 10-30 round mags and 1,000 rounds of 5.56 military surplus ammo.

I fill out a little form, show a valid picture I.D. and they proceed to run the federal background check. In a few minutes my back ground check comes back clean, I pay for my items then take my new guns, magazines and ammo home.

Now as an adult with no criminal history and no mental defects why should I not be allowed to do this? Because you see no need for me to have them?

When what I said in simpler terms so even you will not misconstrue is I will defend myself against criminals, groups of gangs, and foreign Jihadists.

The modern reality is that when gun violence happens, often both parties are armed and law-abiding people get hurt or die. The latest example in New York illustrates that well. No one can say that the police were not justified in using force, as they were given the training and the authority to do so. And yet "law-abiding Americans" were shot and injured.

The current laws do not engender in me any confidence in you as a gun owner.

Now as an adult with no criminal history and no mental defects why should I not be allowed to do this?

It's not that you shouldn't be allowed, but there should be more safeguards in place. I posted an example of this above. The current system allows any crazy to walk into a gun shop and purchase all the ammunition he wants. The theatre shooter in Aurora, had no diagnosable illness, no criminal history. And yet he bought in one sitting enough weaponry to kill that many people, no questions asked.

Should you be allowed to walk into a shop and arm yourself to the teeth for no apparent reason? No. Absolutely not.

Anybody in here ever have to shoot someone?

An Ak-47? Ak-47? Ban ALL guns. ALL guns need to go. Get them out of this society. No need to have them here. Ever. Door to door. Collect 'em and smelt 'em. ALL of them.

Journal: No I would not kill if I didn't have to. I have seen violence and death, it is not something to enjoy. This is the last response I have for you. I am not impressed by your bravado about this subject or anything else for that matter.

I'm not here to impress anyone. Have a nice day.

Yeah, tim, we know, we know, YOU HATE GUNS.

Yet nothing you and your friends have done has been proven to reduce violence.

Yet nothing you or your friends infer to do has been proven to reduce violence.

Government studies have proven there is a CRIMINALS problem that has been steadily and steadily and steadily reducing.

You want to reduce violence, here is a solution that doesnt affect law abiding gun owners, legalize illicit drugs.

Once you have successfully done this one single simple act that would castrate the power, corruption and violence enabled by the insane revenues to the cartels and gangs, they will will be reduced to far less signifcance just like what happened to the mob when prohibition was repealed.

Then you would have 30-40% of the 2.7 million in prison today no longer being criminals (illicit drugs) and now have room to put those 1 million felons the BATF didnt want to prosecute for attempting to buy from a licensed source as the reality as noted is that career criminals and gang members are such a large portion of those killings each year, the only way to stop that, is to imprison those most likely to do so. All of course without increasing the work load of the DA's and such as since it has been a felony for decades for a felon to touch or attempt to buy a firearm, would not incur the hierarchy of criminal charges, it is a slam dunk of a prosecution.

You could then take the $50 billion plus a year in taxes used to run the DEA and use them for the control and taxation of said illicit drugs as lets get real, man has been getting high since the day we began walking this earth.

Since the government wont stop the illegals at the border and such, this does indeed make financial sense.

Hey maybe you should also repeal the 5th amendment as the US Supreme Court states that right of no self incrimination makes it really hard to apply 85% of the existing gun control laws. But then where are you going to put those 1 million the BATF refused to prosecute and the lack of judges and court time, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

You choose which one of those two solutions that does not affect the law abiding gun owners makes the most sense.

T_Bird; so you are sick of some people in this country? Sick enough of them to lose your temper and shoot them? Many gun owners don't want to be lumped into your "rise up" way of thinking. As bad as our government is, and it is already tyrannical, we would still rather have it than people like you running the show.

I'd go buy a gun and help the government fight off guys like T_Bird.

journal: Yes times change that's nature and people change that's thanks to the Constitution but the Governmental foundations of this country does NOT change get over it. There's countries out there that don't allow their people to change but guess what thanks to the Founding Fathers, those that have served and those both civilians and military that have payed the price in blood you are allowed to change. Yes the Constitution has been changed the first 10 amendments which is call the Bill of Rights was things that the founders felt needed to be guaranteed to the citizens, but there are 17 more amendments that was to address things that wasn't addressed before and that's it. The 18th amendment tried to outlaw liquor and it became one of the most lawless times in America so it was repelled with the 21st amendment.

Basically Journal you want to live in a country where people don't enjoy the freedoms that's been payed for in blood so I suggest that you move to a country where you don't have them.

Pistol Instructor: Yes I have and it's something that will stay with you the rest of your life but it was something I had to do being in the military.

J_P: Yes I'm sick of people trying to change the very foundations of this country. You don't like my rise up mentality? Guess you don't like the rise up mentality of the Founding Fathers either so I guess you would have fought for the British huh?

Gun owners don't want to be lump together with me? Then they have no clue to the real reason behind the Second Amendment nor does it seem like you do either since that is the very reason why it was written. I guess if the worse case ever happened and people did have to rise up against the government you would take up arms against them and the military as well huh? I mean it is their duty to protect and defend the Constitution not the government in charge that is what they swore to protect as I did when I joined. Is that what you are saying J_P?

No country is perfect. It's not perfect from start to finish. Sometimes you will need to go back and address the country's imperfect foundations.

This is one of those times. The spate of gun violence across the country has brought this to the attention of millions of Americans. They will "rise up" against people like you. Not with guns, but with their votes.

Like a civilized nation.

journal: The people that truly love this country and what it was founded on will not so really in all honesty your dreaming. You want to address what you call the country's imperfect foundations but there's more out there that see the foundations of this country as it's strong points not to be messed with. Once you start messing with the foundations then everything that people have fought and died for to protect those foundations were for nothing that is what you're really saying?

You know you really remind me of the time when the people of Germany thought pretty much the same thing that it was time to address the country's imperfections. So what did they do they rose up and voted for and elected Hitler which in fact did address guns and look at what it got them. Things like that is exactly the reason the Second Amendment was added much like the rest of the Bill of Rights but I guess you don't like them either but you sure do enjoy your freedom of speech I just wonder how you would act if people were trying to take that or your right to choose you're own path in this world away from you.

I'm not so enamored with this country as you are. The Constitution is an important document but it's not the word of God. It's the word of men, imperfect, fallible and often times corrupt men at that. Its ink is fading under the glare of modern life. The 2nd amendment needs to be updated.

Tens of thousands of people who are alive today won't be next year because of gun violence. You want to protect the Constitution, how about protecting American lives? You want to talk about how people died and how their blood was spilled for my freedom? What about the people who will die and the blood that's spilled because of neglect of gun legislation? Which is more precious? You talk about the people who love their country? What about the people who love their neighbors? The people who love their family and their friends and who have to live without them because someone shot up a crowded theatre, or a Sikh temple?

No more innocent lives need to be lost to the 2nd Amendment.

Rlee,

You choose which one of those two solutions that does not affect the law abiding gun owners makes the most sense.

I am impressed. I can accept everything you said. Let's do both.

I still think there is clearly a correlation between gun violence and the availability of guns, and there are plenty of objective studies to support that opinion. But that does not mean we can hope to control all forms of violence merely by controlling guns - guns are simply tools that make the results of any violent intentions much more devastating.

We cannot ban guns without violating the 2nd Amendment. But if we are to respect that Amendment and respect the power that guns represent, we must find better ways to keep them out of the people who seek to use them in acts of violence.

Thanks.

journal: Just to set the record straight I've had 2 members of my family murdered (both stabbed for life insurance money)so I have first hand knowledge of living without them, but I can tell you right now had they been armed they both would be here today. Both are precious however you want a honest answer those that died fighting to protect this country is more important. With that said I don't care if one dies in bed asleep or however if time has chosen your number it ain't going to matter one bit where you are at or what you are doing.

To some people the Constitution is above the words of some supposed mythical being. Actually a lot think it's the greatest document every written and a lot of people in this world wish they had one just like it . The Constitution and Bill of Rights are the words that gave this country meaning, that gave it the foundation to grow to the greatest country on this planet, that gives each and everyone of us the freedoms we have, but you want to change that to what a dictatorship? I mean that would be exactly what would happen if what you wish for actually took place. Start messing with the foundations and you weaken the whole structure and it will fall.

You want to save those tens of thousands? Let people do what the Founding Fathers envisioned and you would see the rate of violent crimes drop. We have numerous gun laws in effect but they only hurt the law abiding citizens so what good are they? Look at Chicago some of the nations strongest gun laws yet look what's happening there? Did the laws help? No they didn't but they sure did effect the law abiding citizens and stop them from being able to protect themselves didn't they? Something you fail to see is criminals don't give a rats ass about laws it's the reason they are called criminals they will get weapons regardless of the laws passed that is a simple fact. If not guns heck it is extremely simple to make a car go boom without any kind of explosive devise or build a simple bomb from items bought at a local hardware store how are you going to address that? You also fail to see that if a person has death and destruction in their hearts I don't care how many laws you have in place it isn't going to stop them they will find a way that is a fact.

Yes I do love my country, yes I put my ass on the line to defend the Constitution and peoples rights as set forth in the Bill of Rights and the added Amendments. Does the Second Amendment need to go? Heck no it doesn't if anything the restrictions that are now in place need to go.

Serious question if you don't love this country as you seem to suggest then why stay here?

Here's some quotes for you: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Ben Franklin Think about that journal.

Lord have mercy, the body snatchers brought a sane tim back or what?????

Uh tim, the second solution is a negotiation ploy used many times, you make one seem so horrible the other one is reasonable. You couldnt get the 5th amendment repealed if you tried, hence the 1st solution is the most logical. (see PETA & HSUS, good examples)

Dont forget that in defunding the DEA $50 Billion, it wouldnt take very much to both 1) fund and staff the mental health reporting system for the states to get the 19 mil plus not in it, and 2) pay for the upgrade to the BATF NICS to allow civilians access to the NICS without a bunch of extra licenses and fee's.

Pistol Instructor: Yes and it is not anything anyone should want to do. But sometimes (unfortunately) it is necessary. I was (fortunately) properly trained. I wouldn't EVER want to do it again, but if my life or my family's life is in imminent danger of loss of life, well, I will not hesitate. Sad we live in a world where that is even an issue.

Newswinner101 Comment collapsed by the community

...Jared Lee Loughner: Conservative terrorist....

#1.7 - Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:50 AM EDT

Jared Lee Loughner: Attempted to assassinate Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ), killed six, wounded 19 others, in January 2011. NOT a conservative. Registered as "Independent." His political views were described by a former classmate that attended both high school and college classes with him as "left-wing, quite liberal" and "radical." He is a left-wing, drug-using, anti-women, anti-religion, anti-government, conspiracy nut--but he is neither right-wing nor conservative.

It really doesn't help you when the first "case" that you cite actually disproves your argument...

1 Part baked beans, 3 Parts Garbanzo beans, season to taste and I don't give a rats spitcone..

When someone shoots and kills one of YOUR loved ones, I doubt you will think how great it is to own a gun. It is time to stop the madness and time to get rid of all guns.

A gun owning family member was murdered here a couple of years ago by another gun owner...both carried legally...yet because one of the gun owners was a redneck @!$%# who believed in the right to bear arms, he also believed he could do something so bad as to shoot another man as he walked away...it's NOT the guns, it's the people with the guns. Not ALL gun owners should have ANY access to a weapon of any kind. Unfortunately, these upstanding citizens can and do get them all the tme.

It's quite simple, really...if you have any intentions of hurting someone for any reason OTHER than in self-defense, you don't need a gun.

Do we know how the person got the gun? Was it legal or illegal?

the only way gun laws can be made legal, is through ammendment. laws that in any way infringe upon gun ownership are illegal, no matter what the court says...

tom do you have any idea how many laws are already on the books???

Do you know? If so, list some links or sources?

Hell this article is about NJ, you can't even buy ammo without a permit.

This has GOT to stop!! There needs to be some control of who is able to get these guns! Courts have repeatedly said that gun controls are constitutional.

How is that working in Chicago?

mopman and Talk to the Hand, as long as you can go out of state and buy anything you want in the way of a gun and ammo, hell you can buy those things online, it won't matter if the state itself has strict gun laws. If one state outlaws gun sales to crazy people but the state next door, like in Arizona, sells to anyone with money then the state law outlawing the sales to crazy people is useless.

It has to be a FEDERAL law so states can't get around it.

No but bad people get illegal guns here in nj thanks to states who will sell em to anyone. people just go there and but a bunch bring them here and sell em off

Oh! good an Obama democrat. The solution to everything more federal control.

But even if you do that Sandy you can just import the ammo from out of the country over the internet.

It has to be a FEDERAL law so states can't get around it.

Yup. Sort of like the FEDERAL laws against illegal drugs.

So, how's that War on Drugs going?

Sandy, Missouri

Yes you can go out of state to buy ammo, I have done it many a times. NJ is also very strict about gun ownership, so going out of state is an option as well. Ordering off the internet and having stuff delivered to NJ is not an option, good luck finding an online dealer that will ship to a NJ home address.

Just because you want to give up your rights does not give you permission to take away mine..

Sandy, you CAN NOT buy a gun on-line. Period.

Inter-state transfers must go through the hands of a FLL (licensed dealer) with background checks, etc.
Personal sales must be face to face, unless you have a specific "curio" license for collectibles.

Stop posting nonsense.

Gun-free England not such a utopia after all. According to the BBC News, handgun crime in the United Kingdom rose by 40% in the two years after it passed its draconian gun ban in 1997.(18) And according to a United Nations study, British citizens are more likely to become a victim of crime than are people in the United States. The 2000 report shows that the crime rate in England is higher than the crime rates of 16 other industrialized nations, including the United States. -- BBC News Online (July 16, 2001) &"Criminal Victimisation in Seventeen Industrialised Courtries: Key findings from the 2000 International Crime Victims Survey," (2000).

Sandy, you don't know what you're talking about. All gun sales are Federal in states that allow gun sales. Period.

MaximumBob, you are incorrect. You can and I do buy (and sell) guns online. Sales are NOT limited to fact-to-face.

However, you are correct in that a gun sold online must go from the FFL online dealer to and through a local FFL dealer to the buyer. The local FFL dealer then transfers the gun to the buyer who originally bought it online.

Stop posting inaccurate information.

Those of you who are advocating more gun legislation or stricter gun legislation need to do your homework....please! Washington D.C. is among the most heavily restricted places in the country, yet consistently ranks at the top of gun crime statistics! Legislation only affects the law abiding populace of society. Criminals are, by definition, those who break or show no regard for the laws. Why, then, would further legislation make a difference? States with liberal concealed carry policies typically report a lower rate of gun crimes. When the criminal is forced to consider the possibility that they people upon which he is preying may be prepared to return fire in self-defense, the risk vs. gain element in their decision takes on new heights!

Spudbucket, yes, the data shows that, proportionately, the UK has a huge percentage of OVERALL crime when compared to practically any other country, supported by the nationmaster.com national statistics also.

How many relate to violent crime? Well, lets take murder. So many times on these sites, I hear people repeating the classic "More people are killed in the UK than the US by percentage, and they don't have free access to guns." Well, that's a lie, the guardian have shown this (sorry, can seem to post links, google murder rate by country if needed, or wikipedia (which I hate!).

So, a rate of 1.2 per 100,000 or so in UK, compared to 4.2-5 per 100000 in the U.S.. This is true of other countries such as Germany and France, where gun control is more restrictive and the socio-economic indicators are more closely aligned. We can also conclude, that whilst many of these countries display higher overall rates of crime, the developed nations also tend to have a better history of reporting and recording crime statistics.

This isn't however a firm argument, I agree. But you cannot use the UK, Germany etc as a way of suggesting guns are required to remain safe. A real discussion is needed on this outside of the mass shooting incidents, which I also agree would happen regardless.

Also of note, the UK hosts such a p**s poor level of social mobility and an ingrained class system that disenfranchises those at the bottom and even middle, but rewards those at the top. Ignoring the ingrained class system, I think this is not too far off the vision the GOP wishes for America. Keep the guns or get rid of them, the issue is wealth distribution, not guns, and the disenchanted groups this system produces willing to commit the crimes with little to lose...

Spudbucket-6393332

I think it's your intrepertation of the response MaximumBob made.

I believe he intended to say, as he did that while you CAN NOT buy a firearm on-line.. you CAN but the final transaction to the buyer must be through a FFL with all necessary checks accomplished.

Semantics and intrepertation. So, you're both correct.

Sandy, think about what you are saying here. If NJ residents 'go out of state' to purchase firearms and/or ammunition, THEY ARE BREAKING THE LAW of their state! Law abiding citizens wouldn't do this, because it would be illegal, right? Criminals might do so, but they wouldn't obey any laws that they don't want to anyway.

So, in your great wisdom and experience, you want to do away with that pesky Second Amendment, and increase the power (and taxing ability) of the federal government by banning gun and ammunition sales in all the states, except for LEO/government agencies. Oh, and criminals could still purchase firearms and ammo as 'tools' of their trade.

Let's get down to where the rubber meets the road: "We do NOT need more laws!!!

Only two needed: "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart...and love thy neighbour as thyself."

It ain't the guns, its human nature, man wants to kill his fellow man period!

Man is always inventing more effecienct ways to kill his brother.

XDm9mm, you may be right. I was just responding to the words as written. Can't do any more than that.

There's something wrong in suburbia. People love to blame inner cities like Chicago for all of the violence in this country; but every day in the papers there are FAR more shootings in suburbs. And it's usually a mass killing, too, or it's a father that decides to kill his entire family. Suburban people have to stop pointing fingers at urban people and clean up their own horrendous mess. Because if suburban people don't start taking responsibility for all of the murderous suburban thugs they are breeding, it's only getting worse. And on top of that, they have to stop immediately pointing to "mental illness". That's a bleeding heart liberal excuse, and far too overused. Nobody gives that excuse to a murderous urban thug.

Spudbucket-6393332

Yeah, I know. And as you well know, when these things pop, by the time you make a response, there's about 3 or 4 "pages" between you and the end of the posts, which doesn't give one much time to read and respond.

Have a great day and a SAFE weekend!!

bonos rama

I couldn't agree more. I have been pointing this out for a long time now, after every shooting, but felt like I was talking to the air. Finally some people are starting to ask the right questions. Although there are still a frighteningly huge amount of people in raw denial about a) the role of guns and b) the role of family life in suburbia. Ideology blinds us to reality, as we live in the land of theoretical arguments.

I do argue with you on one point, though---I think mental illness is huge factor here. To admit that does not excuse it. But to admit that forces us to again ask the hard questions. Why are so many people mentally and emotionally unhinged? I personally think dysfunctional families (which includes problems with substance abuse and multiple marriages) break down the emotional development of children. The insecurity, the stress, the anxiety, over the long term for many years breaks people down and they grow up being unable to function in life with it's challenges. Anger and hate are the result, and the ease with which they can act out their angry impulses with a gun is the deadly brew we have. To say this does not mean they should not be jailed for life. They should. Get them off the streets, for God's sake.

But we will continue to produce more and more of the same unless we address the causes of the mental illness, and educate people on the importance of strong family, clean living, and faith to help in time of trouble.

Banning all guns will reduce crime - prohibition, illegal drugs...'nuff said.

Our society is sick, and I think it is a combination of many factors; some obvious, some open for debate:

1) economic uncertainty

2) unemployment

3) intolerance from left and right - any dissenting opnion is labled "hate"

4) Permissive parenting - time outs replacing spankings, lack of direct supervision, enforced curfews, etc.

4a) The whole "no winners or losers, everyone gets an award" mentality. Life has winners and losers, a lesson that needs to be learned and accepted to function as an adult

5) Immediate gratifiacation - "I want it now!"; working towards long-term goals not acceptable anymore.

5a) dissapointments are not accepted or handled properly

6) violence in movies and video games, WITHOUT parental control or at least explanation, lessening the value iof human life, making killing seem commoplace.

7) some reports say the increase in chemicals and genetic modifications in our foods are contributing to mental and psychological impairments.

8) PTSD - we have a new generation of combat veterans struggling to deal with the horrors of war...

Take all of these in whatever ratios you want, and you have a society that is bocoming more and more edgy, not prepared to deal effectively with lifes hardships or dissapointments, and quick to resort to anger and violence when things don't go according to plan.

Symptoms of an overindulgent, overly permissive society...

Cranky Old Bigot

According to the FBI....the gunman was right-wing, Tea Party member....

So do you have a link to this FBI statement?

So what if they outlaw guns. Anyone with a small machine shop can produce their own guns. No serial numbers so the manufacture can't be trased. This is even a worse senerio if guns are outlawed.

Between this incident and the recent one in front of the Empire State Building in NYC, I'm reminded of Howard Unruh and what he did on September 6, 1949...

Anyone with a small machine shop can produce their own guns.

This isn't entirely true, because 1) a few tools that aren't quite standard are involved, which would need to be procured or (possibly more likely) built. 2) You'd really have to know how to use those machine tools, which precludes 'anyone' from doing it, just those who are truly knowledgeable in machine tool technology 3) building your own firearm from scratch, versus, say, assembling parts (which would presumably also be banned or restricted if firearms were outlawed) on a frame or receiver that one may build or improvise is quite involved and requires detailed knowledge of firearms design, including the metallurgy involved and the relative hardness of the various parts. The wrong steel or alloy used for a given part, and especially when the part ends up being the wrong hardness, can result in a gun which may burst or explode the first time the trigger is pulled, or one that will not be serviceable after a very low number of rounds fired.

It is absolutely true that tracing such a firearm would be a total nightmare for investigators. Recovered bullets would be of little value unless the gun was also recovered; they couldn't determine the make and model of gun by comparing the spent projectiles against those from known examples.

The most likely bad outcome from this is who would actually be doing this, and why. It would be former machine tool operators, especially those who worked for gun makers, who have the knowledge, skills, and surprisingly often, their own tools! The things that keep just anyone from putting a gun together at home are what would make illegally built firearms assembled by people who really know how to do it quite valuable on the street. That's not the case now, as factory built guns are plentiful enough to keep prices down into the low hundreds to under a thousand dollars or so for a 'good' rifle, shotgun, or handgun. If these were gone, suddenly it would not be unreasonable for someone who really wanted one to justify several thousand dollars - or more - to get a serviceable one that was hand built by an 'underground gunsmith'.

I leave the keys in my car and some kid takes it and kills someone, I can be sued, why not a similar law for weapons ? I support RESPONSIBLE gun ownership

Many states already have strict liability laws and these are not civil laws they are criminal statutes that provide for penalties for things like not having a weapon secured to prevent access by a minor to failure to report the theft of a firearm.

Please share your knowledge, list some links or sources?

How do yo know the gun wasn't purchased legally? Guns gets stolen all the time. My friend is an avid collector of guns and rifles. He had 30 weapons stolen from him. How??? because when he broke up with a girlfriend he left for a weekend and while he was gone, she and 2 others broke in and stole them. They have been only able to recover 2====two of them. Hence you're continuous flow of weapons will always be a problem. I suggest if you have the cure all end all solution you quit keeping it to yourself and help.

So being at least 50, being wise and knowlegable how do you propose cleaning up all the loose weapons on the street, a gun buyback program, a failure to report law? Maybe we could wrap it in a patriotic standing up for the health of the motherland kinda thing? What will you do to combat those who report claims of weapons, just to harass those whom they dislike. We all know those Christians are a bunch of crazy gun toting right wing idealogues we should get them, right? We are a knee jerk culture, we want instant solutions and the ever control seeking government is more than happy to box ourself into bondage by our own laws. We absolutely cannot legislate a civil society, when the hearts of men are wicked.

You are so RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My father - a retired career military officer - is of the opinion that we should make it darn difficult to buy the AMMO. I think he may be on to something. The 2nd amendment refers to the guns only, it says nothing about the ammunition being readily available. Also, back when the Constitution was written, the only guns were "black powder" muzzle-loaders and cannons. So maybe if we make it difficult for the rifled-bore ammunition to be purchased without STRICT background checks and only "freely" allow the "black powder" ammunition and powder to be purchased we'd find fewer incidents like this one or the Aurora shooting. After all, when it takes a while to load a weapon for EACH shot, it kinda cuts down on the ability to have a shoot-out or a mass shooting.

I don't know. I know we have a lot of laws on the books regarding gun ownership that aren't enforced. I know we allow "gun shows" where people can purchase from an "individual" WITHOUT a background check (I live in Virginia so this is an ongoing problem that is discussed at least every few years) and maybe we should OUTLAW those nation-wide. But hearing about this type of nonsense is very sad.

Is it wrong of me to wonder if my ex was one of those involved?

That's exactly what Chris Rock said: We don't need gun control, we need bullet control. If each bullet cost $5000 there won't be any innocent bystanders!

Cat-1200657

Tell your father that all it takes is sulfar, saltpeter, and charcoal to make gun powder. You could, and in some places still buy it off the shelves. Tell your career father that people kill people and guns are just a tool just incase he does not remember. If your EX was involved what the hell do you care, you killed him along time ago.... you just used a gun with a silencer.

Yeah, really sad how the BATF refuses to enforce the background check, prosecuting less than 1% of 1 million felons attempting to buy from a licensed source since 1994, prosecuting none of the 830,000 others rejected that includes the crazies, failing 100% of the time to catch a person using a fake identification as demonstrated by GAO agents in 5 states for a congressional committee study reported 3/2001 by CBS, much less the the 95% of felons who dont even attempt to buy from a licnesed source to begin with.

Lest we remind the ignorant ones that the BATF refuses ANYONE access to the NICS unless you are a registered FFL.

Lest we remind the ignorant ones that the US Supreme Court ruled in Haynes vs US 390, 85, 1968 that felons were not legally obligated to follow any law that required them to violate their 5th amendment right of no self incrimination, making 85% of the existing 20,000 gun control laws not appliable to felons.

So when you unenlightened ones get a clue, come back and we will have an adult discussion.

Oh good! another incompetent. We can make $5000 dollar bullets and then the rest of the world can come to our aid in the form of "A NO Fly Zone" we can read about foreign journalist being killed in our country. And then for good psychological effect the world can look on as the law creating government kills our children to try and bring us into subjection. Good Idea!

Um, 9fingers, my husband is a hunter and takes part in black powder season. We HAVE gunpowder in the house as well as black powder "bullets". We also have more than one muzzle loader in the gun safe in our basement (which is locked since we have an almost 6 year old). I am well aware of what goes into gunpowder and that you can buy it in stores. We also have handguns in the house (locked up) so it's not that I am anti-gun.

My father knows that PEOPLE kill people and that guns are just a tool. Jeez ... he ALSO hunted and has rifles that will probably be passed down to my son since he is being taught proper gun safety and will be taught how to hunt. He is not a pacifist ... he served our country during Vietnam as a VOLUNTEER in the military, not as someone who was drafted. My family has a LONG history of military service to our country ... going back to the Revolutionary War. But I have a feeling that YOU have never served.

WTH is your last sentence? I do not understand your seeming hostility. Did you get up on the wrong side of your bed this morning?

Cat-1200657 and Sharjeel Uqaili: Targeting ammo isn't going to stop anything either since people can save their brass and reload it themselves. I know I save all my brass when I go out hunting or target practicing, I can also mold my own bullets can make copper covered, lead center like bought in stores or armor piercing it's not hard to do. Here's the thing though I can make what's called hot loads which are much more powerful then what one can purchase in the stores is that what you really want? Fact is one can make all the laws one wants it isn't going to stop the criminals or those with death and destruction on their minds all it's going to do is hurt those that obey the laws.

Cat-1200657

No I just have a hang over !!!!!!!!

To those screaming for more gun control laws...Illinois has some of the most strict gun control laws in the country and Chicago is a killing field day in and day out. Somebody should tell those criminals that they are NOT allowed to own guns. It's amazing how the liberal Meccas of the inner city have turned into these killing zones. The great society has trapped these people in the circle of welfare and government assistance and have taken away any motivation to better themselves. Yes... I know not all shootings (Aurora, CO) are due to this but forcing silly new laws that do nothing to hamper the criminals make no sense.

A lot, it seems. We are a murderous, torturous, hatred-filled breed that treats our fellow species members far worse than any other species does. We have always been like that, and we revel in shouting mindless political drivel at each other, depending on which side of every stupid argument to which we have chosen to cling. Wouldn't it be nice if humanitarians, whether religious-based, or simply mankind-oriented, were to somehow gain the upper hand in the discourse?

I agree with you Steve!! That is the first thing I said.. What is wrong with these people where they want to just randomly shoot innocent people? This is America...Not some third world country!

liberalism.

yep. as i said...

Let's suppose you are all gun manufacturers...Would your biggest sales be to licensed gun owners who are either collectors or require firearms because of the rural dangers? Or, would the bulk of sales be to those you consider "they're animals anyway...so let them kill themselves..." (A line from the Godfather script).

If you're a gun manufacturer, you want to make the most profit possible, right? There's not much profit in the limited target market of the licensed gun owners and collectors. That market is much too limited. So, you as the gun manufacturer venture into sales territories you know will thrive the most...inner cities where thugs buy guns and kill each other on a daily basis...That's thousands more in profit every hour.

It's all about profit. It's all about the greed mentalities of gun manufacturers. It's all about selling where guns will be a daily necessity. Not where guns are locked in a cabinet to admire or on a gun rack where it sits idle for a month or more. Oh no...you profiteer where you know you could care less who lives or dies because to you the gun manufacturer, profit not human life is all it's ever about.

ewent (some connection to being a sheeple?), you conveniently forget to mention that gun manufacturers are required by the federal government to record the manufacture and sale of ALL their firearms. Even if manufacturer 'X' wanted to maximize profit, regardless of legality, it would require a large conspiracy by the employees of the company. I very much doubt that any businessman(woman) would expose the company or themselves to such a liability.

In addition, how do you propose that manufacturer 'X' gets his illegally sold firearms to the inner city thug customers and collects the money while remaining 'untraceable'?

I believe you have adopted a belief, devoid of logic and reason. It is based on a prejudice against guns and hatred of businesses you don't approve of. Oh, by the way, legal gun sales to qualified, law-abiding citizens/legal residents are quite high, have been on the increase for several years (even pro-Obama), so manufacturers are not likely to be delving into risky, illegal sales.

Devil Dog..Gee...that's funny...I never see any of those gun manufacturers reports...do you? They are not online...why? Liar liar ...pants aflame?

Since you and I have never met, where do you get off making the presumptions you do? I'm fed up with the needle brained in this country trying desperately to get their way at the expense of humanlife.

Show me a gun manufacturer's published report on their gun sales or STHU already. And let's top the BS of the needle brained...It's a simple matter of a gun manufacturer loading one of his hundreds of trucks with the guns he manufactures and then his driver gets to sell a few "off road" or a few "extras" at gun shows or to the thugs in inner cities..Obviously, you've never been to New York City. You can buy virtually anything on the streets of New York and NO NO NO no gun manufacturer knows where those guns are sold...If they are manufactured, they should have traceability. But of course, men like the needle brained don't want the guns traced back to a manufacturer that easily.

Let me guess...You live in a gun manufacturing state? Good...how about my state taxes your state for every death your gun manufacturers and the NRA cause with the glut of guns they profit from? After all, with all that profit...you can afford a few hundred million in taxes for these needless deaths.

Steve R: "SIN"

ewent

Firearms manufacturing and sales are strictly controlled from a Federal level. Manufacturers need to provide numbers manufactured and a complete accounting of exactly where those firearms went.

They do NOT as you say;

"It's a simple matter of a gun manufacturer loading one of his hundreds of trucks with the guns he manufactures and then his driver gets to sell a few "off road" or a few "extras" at gun shows or to the thugs in inner cities..

Do you honestly believe a company would risk it's share of an industry, larger in dollar volume than Golf, or it's share of selling to the militaries of the world, over a $10 profit?

To say your theories and concepts are totally irrational is being generous.

There's not much profit in the limited target market of the licensed gun owners and collectors. That market is much too limited.

Take some of your own advice.

Show me a gun manufacturer's published report on their gun sales or STHU

ewent
Devil Dog..Gee...that's funny...I never see any of those gun manufacturers reports...do you? They are not online...why? Liar liar ...pants aflame?

Annual Firearms Manufacturers And Export Report
All Federally licensed manufacturers of firearms and destructive devices (Federal Firearms License types 07 and 10) are required to submit a production report of manufacturing and export activity to ATF by April 1 of each year. The information must be reported using the Annual Firearms Manufacturing and Exportation Report Under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, Firearms (ATF Form 5300.11). The report covers activity for the calendar year ended the previous December 31. For example, calendar year 2009 data was due to ATF by April 1, 2010.

ATF compiles the submitted data and releases it here each January, with a one year delay to comply with the Trade Secrets Act. For example, data released in January 2010 was for calendar year 2008. The January 2011 data release will cover calendar year 2009 activity. In response to requests from the industry, ATF released interim AFMER data for the first time in July 2010. This release included aggregate data only and did not identify any specific industry member (to comply with the Trade Secrets Act).

http://www.atf.gov/statistics/

Please continue, I am getting a kick out of watching you try to interact with reality.

Please, just kill each other off and leave me with a few tall, busty, curvy women that will turn heads and get cat calls and let me marry them so I can make a new and better society from the ashes of the old one? Thank you.

Then you wont mind footing the bill to do so.

But hey, we see how good you are at pointing out the bad guys carrying concealed, how you going to stop them since even our own government recognizes that over 92% of deaths by illegal use of a firearm are caused by career criminals. gang members, and suciders (a felony crime).

Get a clue.

We don't need more gun control laws. We need impenetrable, loopholeless gun manufacturing laws. This is something the NRA would be up in arms (pun intended) over. They rely on that tired out old excuse that you cannot stop business. Well gee...why didn't they say so? We have laws that prohibit prostitution, child abuse, spousal abuse, selling drugs, using drugs...but the Big Bad NRA cowboys out there simply refuse to use their brains instead of the blowhard asses when it comes to gun manufacturing laws. We don't allow pharmaceutical companies to produce unsafe drugs for the public...Yet, we allow gun manufacturers to knowingly sell their wares where the profit is greatest....urban streets and inner cities...I repeat: "They're animals anyway...so let them kill themselves."

Any loony tune neoconartist who believes there is no link between the gun manufacturers plotting sales territory and the increased number of guns on the streets has brains where they sit.

So your claiming there are no import laws, no manufacturing standards, no regulations, ROTFLMFAO, ROTFLMFAO, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc... uh yeah right, dont get out much do you!

As noted the FREAKING BATF refuses to enforce the background check not prosecuting more than 1% of 1 mil felons stopped from buying from a licensed source since 1994, refusing to prosecute any of the crazies in the 830,000 others rejected, allowing 100% of those using a fake identification to pass the background check, refusing to do anything about the 95% of felons who dont even attempt to buy from a licensed source to begin with, refusing to allow civilians access to the NICS (only ffl licensee's can do so),

Much less the US SUpreme Court has ruled in Haynes vs US 390, 85, 1968 that felons are not legally held ot obey any law that requires them to violate their 5th amendment right of no self incrimination making 85% of the existing 20,000 gun control laws not applicable to them.

But no, it is never the government fault or failure to enforce the existing laws, its always the manufacturer or law abiding gun owners fault, what a lie.

So how about you get a clue AS ANY SANE PERSON can recognize it is not the law abiding gun owners much less the manufacturers who are responsible for over 92% of the deaths and violence by the abuse of a legal manufactured product.

Legalize illicit drugs and watch all the assocaited violence reduce, just like what happened in prohibition, but history and facts dont mean much to the insane.

our own government recognizes that over 92% of deaths by illegal use of a firearm are caused by

That's not true. Over 40% of deaths by illegal use of firearms are suicides. Suicide is not a legal use of a firearm.

It's a fact that the existing gun laws in the U.S. are inconsistent not only in their enforcement but even more so in their content. Look at gun shows, for example. The biggest problem that the Fast & Furious program had with straw purchasers who bought guns here and brought them into Mexico was that there were no laws being broken in that process and officials couldn't arrest the buyers.

Gun advocates point to places like Chicago and New York where laws are strict as examples of how gun control doesn't work, ignoring the fact that guns can easily be purchased legally in nearby states.

We need consistent and comprehensive laws at the federal level, and better statistics to reflect the impact that gun violence has on the American people.

All of which the NRA adamantly opposes.

Tim, tim tim, the 3 groups, career criminals, gang members and suiciders (suicide is a felony hence they are criminals also) are responsible for over 92% COMBINED out the 100% of deaths by illegal use of a firearm.

In 2009, per the CDC there were over 18,000 suicides using a firearm, uh dude, that is more than 50% of the 29,000 deaths by illegal, justifiable and accidental use of a firearm.

Yeah, sad how you insane people have never show any legislative law that attending a gun show makes all state and federal laws void.

Much less have you insane people ever shown where the BATF allows access to the NICS system by no FFL licnesee's but thats whose fault again oh insane one?

Keep it together man or the psychiatrists are going to up your dosage enough at Bellview where you wont be able to type coherently as we already know your thinking ability is incoherent.

Keep it together man or the psychiatrists are going to up your dosage enough at Bellview where you wont be able to type coherently as we already know your thinking ability is incoherent.

Grow up.

Aw, poor tim, getting your arse handed to you yet again.

You know, beating your head against an immovable object called government facts like you do really isnt the act of a sane person.

So how much longer before you go postal or is that why your in Bellview for treatment?

I tried to keep my message to you as simple as possible, but it still seems to elude you.

No tim, your message is simple, your just too HARD HEADED to undertand, I WILL NEVER CHANGE as your belief is 180 degrees from the reality I have lived and the data presented.

In real life, your probably a very nice person, and in order for you to convince me and so many like me, your going to have to prove the 80 mil law abiding gun owners are the problem.

You have not, and based on the evidence today, nor will you ever.

So either prove up or I will continue to treat you like the little child as I have done for this last entertaining week.

It's not what you were saying. It was the way you were saying it. I have responded to that point elsewhere here.

......God created men, Sam Colt made them equal.

I miss the old Simpsons, back when they were funny.

Who feels safer now that I can bring my gun more places than my cigarettes?

I do, since I can bring my gun.

Qwyergrl

When will people learn that there are consequences to their actions???

I think someone has already established that fact, For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, can't remember his name.

Hey, how about this: Dems agree to let everybody have all the guns they want and Repubs agree to let everybody control their own bodies and what they do in their bedrooms and marry whomever they want?

Works for me.

Can't carry in NJ. Either the Swat team shot him or he shot himself. Its not clear yet.

Ah, thanks TFNJ. NJ must be another nanny state like MD?

Worse that I know of. Up until a couple of years ago, we couldn't even play Paintball. It was considered a firearm. If the crap ever hit the fan, and citizens needed to defend themselves, don't reply on anyone from NJ. I'll bring a stick. LOL

*rely

haa look outside you made that.

maze1992... Wow.. An Obama supporter, huh? Whining and blaming others.. Do you know who the Mayor of Camden is? "Dana Redd is an American Democratic politician and is the current Mayor of Camden, New Jersey" If Liberals would grow up and start taking Responsibility, perhaps we could get this Great Country back on track..

Do you know why so many were laid off? NOT ALL as you wrote.."Experts caution not to blame just the layoffs, which shed nearly half the city's police force amid a budget crisis in January. Since then, some officers have been hired back." Budget Crises...in part because of Liberal policies, no doubt.

Please grow up.. "where they laid off all the Police force"... Sheeze..

-- 270 officers would serve their last day at work by Dec. 31....There is a Police presence at this time and will be Police in Camden. "Field training for the county force — which, as currently planned, would protect only Camden"

You make it sound like there is no Police in Camden at all

You realize the Mayor of Camden is a Democrat right? She made or is making, that call.

I would argue that the unions are destroying this country. Look at the number of cities that are going bankrupt trying to support unrealistic pensions plans that were shoved down their throats by the unions. Lots of large business -- airlines, auto manufacturing -- are in the same boat.

People are dead and you are correcting grammer. Insensitive people like you are part of the problem with this country.

Not just the past two weeks. This has been happening on a regular basis since the advent of internet news sites (and even before in print media...1998 ad in a local newspaper for a grocery store - Frozen Children, instead of Frozen Chicken.) And posters here are just as bad as the authors of the stories posted on all media.

I'll give Sarah+numbers a solid "B" for her vast knowledge on the typos and grammar.

Possibly, the author she critiqued was "under the gun", as the phrase goes.

In all fairness if you do a web search for this story you will find this same exact article posted on multiple sites. Seems they all just copy and paste from one source. Not sure which.

Mark...You realize Governor Soprano is a Repbublican right? He spends more time campaiging his way to fame than he does as Governor...Gee...if he has so much free time as Governor maybe we don't need him or the fat salary and benefits our taxes pay for.

You realize it was Governor Soprano with his big yap wide open who cut all public jobs or is that oo much man up for Republican bully males these days?

And...the GOP Convention? Yawn....Nothing to see there folks...and who'd expect there to be when the GOP sat on their asses for the last 4 years with nothing to offer...nothing to offer...exactly what they'll have if elected...nothing to offer.

Restricting ammo just means the enthusiast will make their own bullets. It's easier to load and load heavier bullets in fact. Who on earth, but someone with the intent, keep a loaded AK-47 in their car?

On Sunday, August 26, 2012...the NY Daily News reported that the FBI invaded a right wing conservative militia in VA with an arsenal of weapons that would make the entire state of VA faint. Arms in the hundred thousands...The next time as ass of the right or neoconartist tries to savage a liberal...ask them how many liberals, progressives or socialists have stockpiled more than 200,000 weapons.

ewent

Post a link to your delusional "story" please.

Oh, and go take your meds. You're getting more delusional as time passes.

why is it republicans try to make a point by saying something stupid, stop cutting education and you might have something intellegent to say.

7.62x39mm

I have been meaning to ask you is that an SKS or an AKR

Hakim...I so agree...these Republicants only view everything with pessimism. If they could, they'd impose their Death mentalities on every American. Disagree with their pointless drivel and they go ballistic.

They can't abide the idea that President Obama not only WILL be re-elected but...by a landslide.

But the best part of ROMO? His great jobs plans fits perfectly into all that offshoring he loves so much...he offshored our jobs...We are next. Works for him...all those foreign companies he vulutre venture capitalized needs more Yankee ingenuity and Americans working at 3rd world salaries.

Obama/Biden 2012 - Forward, Onward and Upward. A vote for Romney is backward, downward and outward.

Except Camden is an hour or more south of Old Bridge.

And the State Police will take over. Possibly the best state police force in the nation.

Greg-1037343

And the State Police will take over. Possibly the best state police force in the nation.

Please provide your source... It was reported here that county police would take over and be designated as Metro police.. non union. I believe the State police are still unionized.

I'm not understanding what one has to do with the other Camden is an hour south of Old Bridge.

GUN LOBBY TORTURED LOGIC

Guns don't kill people

Guns protect people

If you take away guns, criminals will still get them

Cars kill people too

SIMPLE LOGIC:

People with guns kill people

People without guns kill less people

CALL ME SIMPLE

Yes, you ARE simple!

Guns are used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year—or about 6,850 times a day. This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives. --The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law & National Safety Council, Itasca, Illinois.

notrocketscience, (people with guns kill people) I know of hundreds of people who have guns, and not one of them have killed any person. You are simple.

Notrocketscience litany of responses to crimes.

1. It is the law abiding gun owners fault

2. It is the guns fault, they made me do it

3. It is better to let the insane murderer do what they want as risking stopping them is far too dangerous and more people wont be hurt if he is stopped.

4.The NRA is in charge of the BATF

5.Gun control never reduces violence, but we need more gun control

6. Fantastic, more victims blood to dance in to distract people and prosecute those not responsible

7. We created the gun free zones, but it is the law abiding gun owners fault

8. BATF doesn’t prosecute, but it must be the NRA or the law abiding gun owners fault

9. Hope another murder occurs so we can dance in more innocent victims blood and blame the NRA and law abiding gun owners who are not responsible.

10. The police will protect you, even though the courts have clearly stated that is not true, the police will protect you.

11. Business’s, schools can take your right away, but then are not responsible for protecting you, even though they always fail to do so.

12. Law abiding cpl licensee's never successfully defend themselves no matter how many actual incidents you show me,

13. I don’t care what the facts are LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALAL...the world is flat, the world is flat, the world is flat, the world is flat......

14. Say nations with strict gun control had an effect on crimes, then never prove it.

15. Say registration is necessary to prevent crimes, I know we never have evidence this occurs, but we need registrations as I have progressive friends that need employment and tax payers money that we can spend for no constructive result, because we can.

16. I am more afraid of the law abiding gun owner than the criminals and must control them!

17, See #1 & #2

18. See # 1 & #2

19. All the bans didn’t work before, but people have forgotten that and we can force that failure upon them again, their too dumb to know that!

20. Must do what my master tells me, must do what my master tells me, must do what my master tells me........

21. I know the US Supreme court has ruled all the gun control laws that violate the 5th amendment don’t apply to felons, I really only want to control the law abiding.

22. Repeat all the above circle jerks as repeating a lie often enough makes it true!

Where did you get such a persecution complex?

Persecution, no, I just love to yank idiots little ego chains who in their insanity voice their idiocy in public.

I have told LT Colonels, Presidents & Vice Presidents of rather large companies the word no, or they were being fools, and gasp, even police, yet I am still here, still working.

See, by stepping down to that level, it allows those with the unevolved mind capacity those who are the evolutionary link between simple primates and homosapiens that anti gun extremists are prone to be, to understand based on only an emotional ka ka response. Since it is obvious they are incapable of undertsanding much less comphrehending real and actual facts much less using those facts to temper and control their emotional outbursts. Probably why you are in Belleview.

But heres to hoping you gaining your sanity soon.

You know, it is of course tempting to stoop to the level of ad hominum attacks like yours, but it doesn't accomplish anything constructive. Meanwhile, you choose to ignore the plethora of independent data that undermines your position. Demonizing your opponent doesn't help your case.

There is obviously a problem with the inadequate regulation of firearms in the U.S. in the opinions of many, many perfectly sane and highly educated, credible people.

Ignoring the facts simply because they disrupt your world view isn't constructive, and calling people names is just childish.

Talk about it like an adult or keep your opinions to yourself because if you can't at least do that, nobody really cares.

Poor tim, you refuse to acknowledge all those GOVERNMENT facts refuting your position and rather than to patiently try and explain them over and over to your obvious limited mental capacity, have stooped to the level that such undeveloped minds like yours may understand.

Any data from any anti gun organization or study sponsored by them is never credible, academically or in the real world.

Understand this little boy, I saved my mother from a 6'2" 300+ lb attacker because I broke the then law and carried concealed.

That burglar had a lengthy felony record of assaults on women as we found out later when I snuck a look at my friends felony/mug shot database.

Where were the cops, where were they timmmie?

That is not the only instance, but it was the first, and cemented in me that regardless of what ever lies and fantasies, no one on this earth will EVER prevent me from protecting me or mine and if that means endlessly tormenting a fool like you with all that data you have never refuted, so be it!

So save any plethora of your insane, mind numbing whining what anyone else should or should not do because you are a frightened little boy by your unsubstantiated fears and mythical boogeyman fears. See adults will quit arguing when they have been proven wrong, you never do, hence my accurate perception that you are indeed insane.

That is not the only instance, but it was the first, and cemented in me that regardless of what ever lies and fantasies, no one on this earth will EVER prevent me from protecting me or mine and if that means endlessly tormenting a simpleton like you with all that GOVERNMENT data you have never refuted, so be it!

So keep on persecuting the law abiding, keep on blaming the innocents and nothing will change, your efforts are like you peeing on the wildfires in Colorado last month and that is all you have to fight the fire, not real conducive to winning!

Amen to that observation.

Which civilization are you referring to? This problem pertains specifically to our country.

Well, if we were 'civilized', we wouldn't be killing each other at an alarming rate...and so, we are most likely witnessing the beginning of the end of uncivilation...though there may still be some civilized places that survive - see areas like sweden, etc...

DEVO!!!!!!

Or Norway, where a single man killed 70+ adults and children. We've never seen a massacre like that in the United States before.

But you're right, killing other people is only a US problem. *eyeroll*

No easy answers for this. Agree if more level headed persons were armed it might deter this. But wonder if the shooting starts in the confusion there will probably those armed folks shooting at each other.

Drake, unlike NYC police, we know how to shoot, when and where!

First, there is no conceal carry law in New Jersey, so that is not an option.

Second, Drake you hit the key word phrase here. "level headed" person. Use these forums as an example. How many posters here seem a little unstable? How many people do you know that are immature or don't have their act together. yeah, those people will be able to carry and we would be under their judgement in a situation. I don't trust my fellow man with my life. Now, if with a carry permit some training, a good psyche evaluations were done, maybe that would work. But as it is, no.

Yeah, there is TFNJ, it is a MAY ISSUE law which based on the Hitlerites in charge who only allow carry permits to their lackies and favorite elitists is in reality no concealed carry for the poor peasants.

Then again, if your fantasy belief that those who choose to legally carry concealed were such a risk, then you would have thousands of examples of accidental shootings, etc, etc, etc, etc, of which you do not.

Dont care what you believe, only that which you can prove.

MORE TORTURED LOGIC

Can you drive your gun to work?

Can you make a phone call with your gun?

How many mass murders have been committed by alcohol?

Sounds like you are the wacko pal. The comparisons you are making indicates your thinking facaulty if flawed beyond repair.

I'm not sure, but I think murder means intent. People who text and drive/drink and drive are not intent on killing people. There's only 1 thing to do with guns, kill things. And don't tell me people carrying a gun for no reason plan on spontaniously shooting targets.

And you are just making the point. Drinking and driving is illegal, texting while driving is illegal, owning assault rifels and buying unlimited ammo online is NOT illegal, and it should be.

More guns, less crime. In the decade of the 1990s, the number of guns in this country increased by roughly 40 million—even while the murder rate decreased by almost 40% percent.7 Accidental gun deaths in the home decreased by almost 40 percent as well. -- National Safety Council, Injury Facts (2000), p. 125.

Totally. I'm getting sick and tired if these gun control freaks who use this as an excuse to act like their point is 100% valid.

ChuckNorrisWin, I guess from your "title", you are a kun -foo espert. Where I live, people carry concealed guns, non - concealed guns, have guns in their trucks, hanging on a rack behind the seat. We have very little crime, as most criminals will not chance going into an establishment or a home, when they see guns present. Some of us are avid bow hunters, who carry a gun as backup. We'll go into a store to buy something wearing our gun. Not a big thing here. So there is more than one thing to do with a gun. Our country has nuclear weapons for a main purpose - to deter other countries from messing with us. And we know what nuclear weapons can do - kill things. Guns are not the problem, the people behind the gun is the problem.

<Tipping my hat to Bill>

We have people that die every day from drunk driving. Do we ban cars? Do we ban alocohol?

Of course not. We regulate it. For example, we increased the legal drinking age from 18 to 21, and the incidents of drunk driving fatalities dropped significantly.

Many states are instituting better regulation of the use of cellphones too, with similar results.

All people are saying is that we need to do a better job of regulating guns too, that's all.

And your examples actuallysupport the movement toward that end.

Thanks.

Yeah, funny how there is a difference, career criminals, gang members, and suiciders being responsible for over 92% of the problem, which is indeed different no matter how you spin it oh insane one.

Did you see the story on MSNBC earlier this week about the mother who used a gun to stop her daughter's kidnapping? Of course not. MSNBC only put up a short video about it for a few days since it counteracts their agenda.

Did you see the story on MSNBC earlier this week about the mother who used a gun to stop her daughter's kidnapping?

BFD. Anecdotal evidence of the efficacy of personal firearms as a defensive deterrent are highly exaggerated by gun advocates, who are anything but objective. It's not an agenda - it's just not significant enough to warrant more attention, that's all. It's just reality, which is something that often eludes the gun lobby.

See the Donahue study I posted elsewhere on this topic.

You who disagree with Rocky Road, think for a minute. Yes when there is an incident like this, more than one is killed usually. But you think his logic is wrong? Have you ever seen a drunk behind the wheel of a car, or someone on a cell phone texting take out an entire family all at once? It happens. It just doesn't make headlines like the shootings do, and like it or not, there are (I would wager) more deaths per year by inattentive drivers who are either drunk, texting or whatever, and you just don't realize it because they don't post it on the internet how many were taken out each & every day by the aforementioned.

The numbers for firearms homicides and drunk driving deaths are very close - right around 11,000 per year, with a slightly higher number for the firearms. (CDC, 2009)

Yeah, yet tim endlessly infers that it is the law abiding gun owners responsible for those murders, when the government data shows 92% of all illegal killings by use of a firearm are committed by career criminals, gang members, and suiciders.

I lived in Mexico for 2 and 1/2 years where common people can't have guns- after seeing at least 8 bodies riddled with bullets (in store parking lots, at dinner in a restaurant) and watching the news still daily it is quite clear that keeping guns from good people means only the bad ones have them.

Taking guns from Americans may sound like a simple solution but only if you are ready for civil war- trust me on this.

Hard to tell who needs help before they murder a bunch of innocent people.

My Dad taught all of us not to be afraid of the gun, but of the idiot behind the gun!!!

There is no test that tells anyone that someone will kill and has become psycho. Psychiatrists can't tell. They can think "maybe this person is dangerous". Nothing they can do about it. Our laws, for perfectly good reason, don't let us put someone away because "we think they might be....." Families can't do anything unless these people seek help on their own. They are adults. No one can tell them what to do.

ChuckNorris- In many cases it is not all that hard to tell. In the recent case of the Colorado theater shooter, more and more information is coming out about the number of people, Psychiatrists included, who knew or had to know that this moron was spiralling out of control...and they said nothing. The law requires mental health professionals or doctors who hear threats by a patient to notify the authorities.

Political correctness is killing half these people because the crazy have "rights". We used to have a process of identifying dangerous psychotics and getting them committed to a State mental hospital. In those days there were virtually no mass killings. Now we are more interested in changing the terms of mental illness so that nobody is offended. The state hospitals are all closed, and the mentally deranged are turned out onto the streets to become "homeless", murderers, rapists, violent crackpots dangerous to themselves and others.

Lets lay off the touchy-feely handling of dangerous lunatics and lock them up. No matter how you twist the truth, it is people that kill people. With whatever weapon. Every mass murder sees MORE people buying guns and taking training, not less. People aren't disturbed about guns, they are disturbed about the growing and unchallenged threat to their well being from murderers.

all of a sudden the media is covering every shooting across america. sounds like a ploy to disarm legal gun owners...

cyde--you sure are a clever one. You shrewdly figured out that all the news media got together to hatch a secret plot to take your guns. And their plan is brilliant: just keeping doing what they always do, make a national news story out of national news.

As a society we imprison more people than any other country in the industrialized world and with all these supposed "bad people" out of circulation, we STILL have the highest rate of homicide. Anyone questioning why this may be is shouted down by hysterics who fear losing their guns more than losing their lives. It's really sad. Condolences to the loved ones of the victims.