I don't know Grizzy Adams look like he might not weed himself from the gene pool if the FBI had actually given them real explosives :P. Although he did let the FBI entrap him.

I have never blown up a bridge, but looking at the picture, and knowing how an arch works. I would say place some at the supports that run to the ground forming the base of the arch, and/or take out the middles/keystones?

Well gees Sarge, looks can be deceiving, now can't they.

Soooo....those are the photos of the three that DIDN'T require competency testing?

Okeeboy

OK, call me profiling, but after looking at the pics of these losers, which one has enough brain cells to construct an effective explosive device?

Looks like the only weapon of mass destruction they possessed was whatever they were ingesting in quantities large enough to destroy brain mass.

I have actually blown a bridge while in the Army and it takes more than throwing a stick of dynamite towards it.

They bought plastic explosives, which can be shaped to cut steel. But c'mon now, "mass destruction"? They don't look like they could afford to buy 100 lbs, much less a megaton.

The idea was to blow up a bridge; the intent was to do mass destruction. Whether or not these criminals were competent to peform the act is a whole other matter. They would've if they could've.

I read where they cleaned up fairly well for their court hearing. A good head washing and shave would have made a world of difference on all of them. They certainly are a sad looking lot in their mug shots. Talk about scroungy looking, wow. (My son was rather Goth in high school, with long hair and goatee, etc., but he was always clean and well groomed.) (Yes, I'm a mom, deal with it.)

As far as their sentencing--the longer, the better. Their stupidity is the dangerous brand, and they really don't need to be interacting or in anyway influencing others. Throw away the key.

Those of you who say they don't look like people who are able to pull it off, have you ever seen a pretrial pic of Timothy McVeigh?

Greg, they were at an Occupy protest. Doesn't mean they were part of it.

Note the same pattern in all of these stories: The accused are ALWAYS being guided and handled by government agents (CIA, FBI, etc.).

Moe, Curly and Larry couldn't blow up a balloon let alone a bridge. Haircuts and some business suites was a good idea, or the judge would still be rolling on the floor of the court room laughing. Who was their attorney, Sponge Bob? These guy's must have been part of the OWS Special Needs section. What now? Leavenworth for 20 years making rubber license plates.

So Laura, if I attended a KKK rally would you say I was or was not a part of it (the KKK)? Substance over form.

I doubt if any of them could even spell anarchist.

1st, I'm from Cleveland, and know the bridge well.

2nd, these were leftist anarchists, which is conveniently left out of the article. Only leftist anarchists believe in violence to cause revolutions...it's called "propaganda of the deed". No right libertarian, or Rothbardian anarchist (aka anarcho capitalist), has ever commited a terrorist act. Now, leftist anarchists will claim Rothbardians are not "real" anarchists...but that's coming from a group of people who either support or themselves break the windows out of businesses at every G20 Summit (who I'm all for peacefully protesting), and who think these type of violent leftists are heroes.

3rd, so now explosives are "weapons of mass destruction"? Clearly a WMD is a nuke. That was the reason Bush lied to us about Iraq having WMDs...there were no nukes! Then the Repubs decide to redefine it to poison gas and chemical weapons after the fact so they can say "see, he did have WMDs"...ignoring we sold him most of those weapons and encouraged their use vs Iran in the Iran-Iraq War previous to the 1st Gulf War. These leftists anarchists were NOT using WMDs...this is just a way to make it wore than it was. It was bad...but they couldn't even make the explosives. They were sold fake explosives by the Cleveland FBI (we have a tower built downtown that is strictly an FBI building). They did purchase them and try to use them...but they didn't have WMDs, nor did they try to use WMDs. Can we just treat criminals as criminals please? Do we have to overdramatize eveything?

In closing, I'd appreciate it if the news mentioned that others have attempted to do similar things before in Cleveland, and they were all leftist anarchists. The town is mostly leftist, and votes that way all the time. I'd appreciate it if the media quit stirring up hate toward a minority philosophy (anarchism), and started mentioning these are European style anarchists - leftists; illegalists and insurrectionists, and occasionally primitivists like the UnaBomber. They are not individualist anarchists, ala the American tradition, and they are not market anarchists...the majority of anarchists in America are market anarchists. The majority of libertarians/anarchists are peace loving people who believe in ethical codes surrounding non-aggression (the non-aggression principle, or the NAP for short). Leftist anarchists subscribe to no such ethical code. They care more about destroying capitalism than abolishing the state. They seem to think the two are the same thing, despite the fact they hypocritically support MORE regulation from the state on business, which logically grows the very state they profess to be against. They simply have a completely inconsistent set of morals, as evidenced by their many terrorist acts throughout history, incuding an assassination of a President. I'd also appreciate it if the media quit letting the state and its propaganda machine at "Homeland Security" redefine what is and is not a WMD. C4 is not a WMD. It may cause mass destruction, but as of 2008, WMD meant nuclear weapon. Hence, Bush lied us into war in Iraq.

Tax us extortion. Killing people overseas who are not a threat to us is murder. Never forget that moral fact.

Addio estortione! Addio dello stato! (Goodbye extortion! Goodbye state!)

To all leftist anarchists: the way to end the state is to take away its monopolies on services like policing, roads, 1st class mail, defense, and to allow competition for those market demanded services on the open market. Violence is not how you stop taxation that funds the murder and extortion machine (mafia). Stop being or tacitly supporting violent political action! You are making it hard on all nonviolent anarchists! You make our philosophy look like crap! What is wrong with you folks?

Steve-3414431

So Laura, if I attended a KKK rally would you say I was or was not a part of it (the KKK)? Substance over form.

Nice assumption. I've attended a tea party rally yet I am the furthest thing from it.

Tax is extortion.*

ted kasinski didnt look all that bright either,but.............

Ted Kaczynski was an assitant professor at Berkley. These three combined couldn't generate enough brain cells to flush a toilet.

Nice assumption. I've attended a tea party rally yet I am the furthest thing from it.

Then why in the world would you go? If you say it is because you are a detractor then... I still don't understand why you would attend. You can't fix stupid.

What I'm saying is there must be some kind of identification with the purpose/mission of the rally in order to motivate one to attend.

Thanks for clearing up some of my unanswered questions post 1.13,

I'll rest with some of the knowledge other parts are over my head I'm just a family man.

Umm.. One of them signed a lease on a warehouse to be used by Occupy to sleep in. So yes, they WERE part of OWS. There is no question of their involvement with that group.

Laura, didn't you ever listen to your mother? You are judged by the company you keep.

While I agree with others here that based on the photos these guys don't have the brains to walk and chew gum at the same time, but looks can be deceiving. Jeffery Daumer fooled a great many people before he was finally caught. Timothy McVeigh was very unassuming.

If found guilty I hope they get the maximum allowed by law. 5yrs doesn't seem like enough to me.

Mr. Individual -

Thanks for the insight into this type of anarchist, and the "leftist" climate around Cleveland.

Ms. Janine -

Your right about appearances. I always though Einstein needed a hair cut.

1.13, you got WMD wrong. WMDs can be nuclear, biological or chemical weapons. They are weapons that are designed to destroy people in mass amounts. For example C-4 can be a chemical weapon if used to bring down a bridge so that scores might be killed. These OWS anarchist slime deserve death.

Fellow liberals - We do not need to try to defend these guys or say they weren't apart of the OWS movement. Everyone knows the OWS had good upstanding citizens fighting against corporate greed, and it also had a bunch of young, dumb, losers with nothing better to do. These guys obviously fall in the latter. I mean what does blowing up a bridge in Ohio even have to do with the OWS movement. How was that going to hurt the greedy bankers? These guys are wack-a-doos, and they come in the OWS and Tea Party alike (although obviously the Tea Party has many more of them ;)

So much crap going on here that it's hard to know where to start. First and foremost, I am aware of some of the tactics used by some of the country's intelligence/law enforcement agencies. I wish I did not. I'll say that, in some instances, one can understand the need for such actions BUT there is such a thing as "going to the well" too many times and it becomes easier and easier to just do the most expedient thing, even if it is wrong, than to do the right thing in the right manner. Although this has nothing to do with this case, it was just revealed that the FBI has the user ID info of millions of iPhone users. Why would they need that? More importantly, what are they doing with that info? The Patriot Act is not your friend, folks! As for the people involved in this matter, I think that they had better prepare for the worst. They and their family members are claiming entrapment. I'm not saying that never happens and it could even be the case here but at some point along the way there is usually an avenue out of that sort of thing. If I were ever in such a situation, I would first go to or call every media source possible and tell my tale, Next, I'd go to or call my state senator and the DOJ and tell them that I've already alerted the media then wait for the fun to begin. If one is claiming entrapment of any sort, it is never wise to continue down that path until one is in the situation these people are now faced with. i.e. awaiting sentencing. I have no idea whether they are guilty as charged or not. I do know that, with things having gone this far, an exceedingly large prison sentence is more likely than not.

WOW nbc is seriously in 0bama protection mode.

Calling these guys guys anarchists when they are part of Occupy, hell one of them is even an Occupy organizer

Bless their hearts as Pelosie said.

Or 0bama saying the protesters give voice to those who are frustrated.

So of corse you hacks at NBC would try to put some distance between these terrorists and Occupy.

I'm sure many of you remember when any time a person did something violent in the last few years, the media was scrambling to make a TEA party connection. Now that the connection to a protest group is perfectly clear the networks go into 0bama protection mode.

On another pathetic media note, when someone from 0bama's cherished minority voting block killed a guy in self defense, you media hacks created the word WHITE/HISPANIC in hopes of drumming up some racism.

This place is insane, let me know when you start fact checking the DNC speeches.

Agreed Mario. Einsteins hair always freaked me out.

You just never know.

Elliot,

I am sure the liberal media tried to claim these clowns were part of the tea party when they were first arrested. You know how violent the tea party is, right? I mean how can they not be with the majority of its members being in their 50's and 60's and small business owners.....they just have that rep of blowing things up, crapping on cop cars, raping women, etc. Oh wait, thats right.....tea party rallys have had how many arrests? Come on liberals help us out. And OWS has had how many arrests and violent crimes commited? Of course the media is going to try and deflect the fact that the majority of OWS chumps are Obama supporters, walking around with their "Communism Now" signs etc.

Any fool can see it was entrapment! Looks like they pleaded guilty to reduce their sentence since they were afraid they couldn't get a fair trail. Not hard to understand when you might have to face lying FBI spies in a trial! Now you can see who the real target of the war on terror really is -- Americans defending their rights.

There's a good lesson here about what the FBI really is. The FBI is the political police whose job is to stop protests by working people. From Martin Luther King to OWS, you can count on the FBI to send in their agent provocateurs.

yeah they were defending their right to blow up a bridge! and who cares how they get the scum off the street as long as by doing so it makes the streets a safer place? the fbi didnt seek out 5 individuals and start up a conversation about blowing up this bridge, these morons came up with the idea and luckily , they ended up dealing with the fbi and not actually getting their hands on the real explosives. and for those saying its not wmd, so blowing up a bridge ,possibly with cars and trucks and lots of people on it, is not the use of wmd? so they have like some kind of limit on how many lives you take at one time in order for it to be considered wmd? wow thank goodness when we blew up that bridge full of people we were 2 lives away from being charged with the use of wmd.....rediculous... if they intended on blowing up a bridge and taking the lives of innocent people then they deserve to rot in prison for as many years as the law carries for these charges. maybe they should have thought about what mite happen if they got caught, im sure they could have cared less what happened had they have actually been able to do what they set out to do. and no one twisted their ams or held a gun on them to make them seek out explosives. remember the saying, you do the crime, you do the time, rot in prison we will all be a little better off, and maybe their families should have been more involved in these guys lives before they decided to try and become mass murderers. too late to care now.

So, Proindividual,

If taxes are extortion, where exactly is the government (local, state, or federal) supposed to collect money to oh, I don't know, re-pave roads, put in new intersections, just to name a few? Do you really think DOT workers will work all night in asphalt fumes for nothing? Where do they purchase the tar and other materials?

To simply say taxes shouldn't exist is pure crazy town.

Only leftist anarchists believe in violence to cause revolutions...it's called "propaganda of the deed". No right libertarian, or Rothbardian anarchist (aka anarcho capitalist), has ever commited a terrorist act.

Tim McVeigh was a leftist? Who knew?!? I thought for sure he was a right libertarian, acting out after his fellow libertarians at Ruby Ridge were harassed and killed.

Since it's clear that Tim McVeigh did commit a terrorist act, the rest of what you had to say was considered bunk and left unread. If you were able to conveniently leave out Tim McVeigh from your argument, I have to assume you left out other critical facts too.

BigJeff-2931255

So, Proindividual,

If taxes are extortion, where exactly is the government (local, state, or federal) supposed to collect money to oh, I don't know, re-pave roads, put in new intersections, just to name a few? Do you really think DOT workers will work all night in asphalt fumes for nothing? Where do they purchase the tar and other materials?

To simply say taxes shouldn't exist is pure crazy town.

I don't see where he said that taxes shouldn't exist. People really should try to limit their responses to things that were actually said as opposed to adding on a bunch of assumptions to make their point seem more valid.

Bless their hearts as Pelosie said.

maybe you should get a better idea of what "bless your heart" really means.

its not nearly as complimentary as it sounds...

I'm 100% for peaceful protests even if I disagree with the protester, and most OWS protesters were peaceful. these clowns are nothing but representatives of the lunatic fringe, violent anarchist movement, lock them up and throw away the key.

any political ideology (right or left, it doesn't matter)or religion, if carried to the extreme will result in violence and oppression

Look at them. This line up IS the crop of the Dumbed Down uneducated system, the work of The RepublicanCrimeCartelSoldiers beginning with President Reagan and most assuredly "No Moron left Behind" of ALL morons, KingGeorge the VacuumBrained during his Shamefully Notorious Shrubber Reign 2001 - 2008. This is THE ULTIMATE weapon of the republicanCrimeCartelElitistSociopaths to retain their SCAM of "FreeMarket"CapitalismReign: A new American Revolution?? Well you have an army of mindless anarchists, Very Very easily manipulated young men with IQs of unruly chilldren to deal with. This IS NOT a Democracy enhanced by Competitive Capitalism but an elitist band of sociopathic criminals controlling America, her laws and wealth. Think About it:This 1-10% Elitist Club of Wealthy and Corporate Rich have STOLEN and stashed away $20Trillion Dollars from America into overseas number registered accounts. Money that is needed for rebuilding America while they put Stooges like MittTaxPittanceRommel and his sidekick EddiMunster in front of American's noses suggesting that these two republicanCrimeCartelSoldiers will return America to Her Greatness. She IS Already Great. We Americans just have to flush this "republican"CrimeCartelSewage out of ANY level of legislative authority.

A vote for Prez O IS A Vote for Yours and Your Family's Well Being. You Can Take That Advice To The Bank.

So, Proindividual,

If taxes are extortion, where exactly is the government (local, state, or federal) supposed to collect money to oh, I don't know, re-pave roads, put in new intersections, just to name a few? Do you really think DOT workers will work all night in asphalt fumes for nothing? Where do they purchase the tar and other materials?

To simply say taxes shouldn't exist is pure crazy town.

And:

I don't see where he said that taxes shouldn't exist. People really should try to limit their responses to things that were actually said as opposed to adding on a bunch of assumptions to make their point seem more valid.

I am saying tax should not exist. It's logically extortion. If any other institution or individual told you to pay or be kidnapped and thrown in a cage with chains on like an animla, and if you resist that kidnapping by defending yourself you'll be murdered, you'd call it what it is; extortion. Because your god is the state (compulsory government), you fail to make a consistent judgement of an equivalent aggression.

Tax is an involuntary payment made based on a threat of aggression, physically or financially, to the state.

So, how did the state fund itslef in America before 1913 (the income tax)? By user fees and tariffs. I'm against tariffs because they cause widespread economic damage (they shrink GDP and trade tremendously), but user fees are fine. Also you could have a national lottery, or donations. Remember, if you pay of your own free will it's a donation, NOT a tax.

But none of those options are necessary if you allow competition with the state in the production of such market demanded goods and services like law, roads, defense, 1st class mail, welfare, etc. Lysander Spooner (and American anarchist and entrepeneur) competed with the mail and was winning. He invented home delivery mail actually. He drive down the price of stamp by hundreds of percent. Then his business was outlawed. Why? The Constitution says the state must have a post office, not the ONLY post office. He was outlawed because no one wanted to use the state's postal system with him providing cheaper stamps and better service.

So the point is clear: competition leads to lower prices, better quality service, and accountability to customers (or at least moreso than in monopolies). It's hypocritical to be for anti-Trust legislation and yet support the coerced monopolization of market demanded services by the state. Clearly they hold several unnecessary monopolies. In panarchism law is done by competing firms (whether for-profit, non-profit, or complete charities) all in the same geographic area. This has plenty of historical examples, if you bother to try. The state has been proven by anthropologists to only have existed for 6,000 years, or 3% of human civilization (roads, law, defense, trade, police, fire services, welfare, etc.). That means 194,000 of 200,000 years of civilization has been stateless. Society and civilization, along with property in land and otherwise, were products of the markets (Division of Labor in agrarian society led tro land property, etc.). The state is not synonymous with society or civilization, depsite the propaganda you may have swallowed through childhood and contine yo swallow in adulthood.

There are numerous books written on how all these market demanded services like law, roads, defense, etc. would exist in a free society (a stateless one). I don't need to exhaust the answers here, you can do some reading for yourself. Just remember, anyone who rejects an idea/argument before hearing it is a dogmatist and a fool. You can reject them out-of-hand becfore hearing and thinking critically about them, but it would be foolish. All of the criticisms have been waged against us, and we've more than answered them over and over again via logic and reason. More than anything, people support the state not out of necessity, but out of nostalgia and brainwashing.

So if you want a government via a social contract to provide you with any of these servicesi na monopolized fashion, that's fine...have a voluntary government, not a state. A state is a compulsory government with monopolies on market demanded services like law and defense - at minimum - in a certain geographic area. A government that is voluntary would have no such monopolies, and would have to compete with other service providers (governments) in the same geographic free territory. This competition brings accountability, and prevents many of the criticisms that are old and tired (like competing defense leads to war...even though no payments to the waring faction are forced, and thereby can be ended by customers switching to competitors. Also, war is expensive, and not a smart business decision. But again, there are dozens of books written on this subject.). Feel free to have a voluntary government, but you may not force others into an extortion and murder machine called a state. To do so makes you nothing more than cheerleader for mafia, and a tyrant by proxy.

Besides, the state is essentially a series of monopolies. And what is the rule about monopolies? They are woefully ineeficient, have higher costs, provide worse service, and have no accountability. Sound familiar? That's what we have now. Plus, we're organizing ourselves via forced democracy (where everyone is held to the outcome of votes withing the monopolized social contract - that none of signed or EXPLICITLY agreed to, despite the "implicit consent" nonsense argument). If you organize yourselves by argumentum ad populum, an informal logical fallacy, are you really suprised you have an illogical result? Of course you have an illogical result. Anything else would be a miracle. There isn othing wrong with voluntary democracy, but coercive democracy ends in disaster everytime. And Republics are simply indirect forms of democracy...so the slide into the disaster is just slower, not averted.

If you think the state giving up its monopolies on rioads would mean no raods, i feel sorry for you. It's clear that market demanded services like roads don't go away when the state does...in fact they get cheaper, better quality, and the providers of them have more accountability. Plus, instead of cronies of whoever won the election getting the contracts, the best provider does based on customer payments.

Of course someone will ask..."but poor people can't drive then"...which of course is total nonsense. They already pay a high toll on every gallon of gas instead of their mileage...it's called gas tax. It would be lower cost and the roads better quality if the roads weren't monopolized. That allows MORE poor into market, not less. So it your system that currently locks some poor out of the market...not mine.

What's "crazy town" is refusing to think for yourself and question authority while still cheerleading for extortion...let alone murder. If you bothered to read books on the subject, many of which are available online for free, you'd know the answers to your nonsense questions/diatribes. You'd know there are viable alternatives to extorting people to pay for what the market demands. But hey, why care about morality, right? Just support extortion because you're too lazy to think for yourself, question authority, and read books.

Sickening. I guess you like living in this false paradigm of left/right that is destroying this country. Statelessness ends the entire argument over who holds the state's guns to whose head, and who forces whom to live as whoever holds the gun that 4 years chooses. Everyone lives as they wish voluntarily in statelessness. There is law, not lawlessness. There is order; spontaneous order. There is defense, it's just cheaper and less likely to wantonly murder people who are no threat to us because it's bad for their reputation and customer support in the market...plus they don't have extortion to fund them against their populace's wills.

Let me give you quotes that sum up my entire philosophy of individualist free market anarchism:

"If you(as an adult)have the(mental and physical)ability to govern yourself, then you have the right to govern yourself, andif in that self governance no other unwilling persons, their possessions, or their properties are harmed, (logically)all external(compulsory)government is tyranny." - Benjamin Tucker and I

And:

Benjamin Tucker wrote:

"[T]here are some troubles from which mankind can never escape. . . . [The Anarchists] never have claimed that liberty will bring perfection; they simply say that its results are vastly preferable to those that follow authority. . . .As a choice of blessings, liberty is the greater; as a choice of evils, liberty is the smaller. Then liberty always, say the Anarchists. No use of force except against the invader; . . . . "

Has ANYONE seen "Child Labor: 1903 -1917" at cbenews.com? The "republican"CrimeCartel OVER a Century Ago. View it with an empty stomach. MittTaxPittanceRommel and his SideKick EddiMunster Long for those days WITH OTHER PEOPLE'S SONS AND DAUGHTERS slaving away and fighting Their Rich elitist wars of Profit, while these elitist criminals live in the lap of incredible luxury. Where does MittTaxPittanceRommel and EddiMunster belong during their reigns?? In Federal Prison away from society. We still have to deal with the congressional Sewage on Crapital Hill and the Demon OF ALL DEMONS: aipac. American israeli public affairs committee and it's WhipCracking dual American/Israeli citizenship OverSeer Joseph Caiphus Lieberman.

Backcountry,

Proindividual said that taxes are extortion. That was no assumption. She stated that.

My argument is that she thinks that taxes shouldn't exist. My assumption is that any rational human being who can post a comment online would naturally think that extortion is not a good thing.

Now, if my assumption was wrong, and proindividual thinks that extortion is a good thing, then she is actually making a pro-taxes argument.

How about if we let proindividual speak for herself?

Maybe you just missed his second one-line post. So, perhaps you should limit your posts until you know what argument you want to make?

Tim McVeigh was a leftist? Who knew?!? I thought for sure he was a right libertarian, acting out after his fellow libertarians at Ruby Ridge were harassed and killed.

None of those people were anarchists. Only left anarchists have commited acts of terrorism, not one right anarchist - aka anarcho capitalists, aka individualist free market anarchists, aka Voluntaryists, aka Agorists, etc.

BTW...libertarians? McVeigh was not a libertarian...he was a Constitutionalist paleoconservative. Nice try. The Ruby Ridge dude also wasn't a libertarian...he was survivalist who ran with neo-nazis. Libertarians are anti-racist, In fact, it's one of their biggest reasons for being anti-drug war (the racist outcomes, even if there is no racism in intent).

The fact is conservatives have been the recent domestic terrorist thrats mostly, with a few leftist anarchists in there. Historically it's cyclical...for 50 years the left dominates the terrorism, like in the 1960s, then for the next 50 years or so the right dominates it (like conservatives via McVeigh). No one has a monopoly on it.

However...not one individualist free market anarchist has EVER commited an act of terrorism. That is the uniquely American brand of anarchism. The European schools teach violence...but we reject it. We teach the PLC (the path of least coercion) and the NAP (non-aggression principle)...they teach Insurrectionism, Illegalism, "propaganda of the deed", and Primitivism (like the UnaBomber). The only acts of terrorism in anarchism are leftist anarchists...period.

They have blown up bombs on Wall Street. They have murdered allies and enemies over differences of opinion. That helped win revolutuions through ruthless aggression (only to be betrayed everytime; another reason individualists like me are against violent overthrows via revolution, instead favoring evolution via education and conversion along with good, nonviolent, non-threatening parenting). They assassinated President McKinley (he was from Ohio, BTW).

You can try to make this a left/right issue...but the fact is that only collectivist/socialist/communist anarchists use violence. Those of us in the individualist free market camp abhor violence chiefly among all other things in our moral code. Some of us are pacifists...although most of us believe self defense is the ONLY justifiable use of force. If any hints about wanting the state violently overthrown, we deride them immediately because it goes against the evolution ideal. We cannot create a non-coercive, or least coercive, world through coercion. Leftists anarchists don;t understand that apparently.

Left and right, BTW, are false dilemmas...a false paradigm. I only use the language because it's all you people seem to understand. To us there are statists and anarchists...pro-authoritarians and anti-authoritarians...collectivists and individualists...those who advocate force to solve problems that aren't self defense scenarios, and those who do not. We take the ideas of classical liberalism to their logical conclusions...abolishing the minarchy for anarchy.

Anarchists are simply unterrified Jeffersonian Democrats. - Benjamin Tucker

We value logical consistency and ethical certitude above all else. Ours in a true philosophy...not an ideology. We have all 5 criteria to be a philosophy, unlike most statist ideologies. We have aesthetics, epistemology, metaphysics, logic, and ethics. The only thing it rquires to arrive at out position the a priori belief in self-ownership. Once you establish you believe that you own yourself and are not a slave to the state any other person or institution, there is an objective morality...our ethics. The only way morality is subjective is if you reject self-onwership aka individual sovereignty, aka self autonomy.

The rules are simple...you have to follow that set forth in my first quote in my last post....the one by myself and Benjamin Tucker.

Proindividual said that taxes are extortion. That was no assumption. He stated that.

Not that it matters what I sex I am, but i FYP.

To me men and women are equal...all that matters is they are individuals, not that they are male, female, straight, gay, black, white, brown. etc.

Individuals have equal natural rights (or equal Utilitarian autonomy, if you reject Natural Law Theory).

But I am a dude, :)

Even IF OWS had a Board of Directors, they would not have approved this plan.

I think we can leave their participation out of the equation.

The only relevance of the OWS movement is that it contains many leftist anarchists who are more worried about destroying capitalism than abolishing the state. The fervent anti-capitalist rhetoric, as opposed to anti-state rhetoric, does lead some leftist anarchists down the path to terrorism. But they are the problem, not OWS, not free speech, and not anarchism or anarchists in general (even most leftists anarchists are not terrorists, clearly).

I'd just caution...when you suggest that it is moral to use violence or the threat of violence to extort people (tax), and constantly rail about the evils of capitalism, all these violent leftist anarchists are doing is taking your ideas to their logical conclusions (however unethical that might be). It should be a wake up call to those at OWS to re-examine their own ethics surrounding the use of force. They seem to understand the unjstified use of aggression in foreign policy results in murder...they just so far lack the ethical and logical consistency to see that unjustified acts of aggression in domestic policy results in extortion (or worse).

The problem is unjustified aggression. Making excuses for it out of pragmatism, when other logical and ethical options are clearly available if you bother to research them, does nothing to extinguish its obvious immorality.

This is why left/right drives me nuts. The left says unjsutified aggression is okay in demostic issues like taxation (extortion)....while the right says unjustified aggression is okay in foreign issues like pre-emptive war (murder). Both use the same excuse; pragmatism. Neither seem able to pick up a few books and see that it isn't pragmatically necessary to do what they are doing.

The State is said by some to be a "necessaryevil"; it mustbe madeunnecessary.

Instead of pursuing the cause of making an evil unnecessary, they seem to come up with ever more ridiculous excuses for protecting it.

The State is said by some to be a "necessary evil"; it must be made unnecessary. - Benjamin Tucker

*

@BigJeff-2931255

My argument is that she thinks that taxes shouldn't exist. My assumption is that any rational human being who can post a comment online would naturally think that extortion is not a good thing.

So you admit that you made a post based on an assumption. Sometimes "bad" things are necessary which could have been ProIndividual-3906907 position.

How about if we let proindividual speak for herself?

That was the entire point of my post; nice to see that you agree with me even though you've decided to argue about it anyway.

@ProIndividual-3906907

Tax is an involuntary payment made based on a threat of aggression, physically or financially, to the state.

So, how did the state fund itslef in America before 1913 (the income tax)? By user fees and tariffs. I'm against tariffs because they cause widespread economic damage (they shrink GDP and trade tremendously), but user fees are fine. Also you could have a national lottery, or donations. Remember, if you pay of your own free will it's a donation, NOT a tax.

What about gas and wheel taxes? They are essentially user fees and are voluntary to a point since you don't need to own or drive a car.

Re; PHANTOM BEAST; your postings are delusional and non-sensical, and I'm not even a Republican.

I think we may see your picture on MSNBC soon....

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Anarchists organizing and planning to blow up a bridge?

I wonder which anarchist was in charge?

What's the movement coming to?

Looks like these 5 poster children for American education system are going to be a burden on the taxpayer's for the next 15 years to life. Not that they could ever have made it in life on their own....

More like poster children for the American PARENTING system, Sharkey.

Oh here are the half cocked crazy white boys coming out of the wood-work! I was wondering where they were. I'm surprised they weren't trying to shoot up a mosque or temple instead. Sad to target American structures. but at least they got them.

what does the colour of their skin have to do with anything? oh let me guess your one of the po blacks that likes to use the race card as a way to exuse your miserable life. well let me tell you, an explosion caused by blacks kills just as deadly as one caused by whites. oh blacks dont use bombs? they just do da drive by, and home invasion and they sure do kill me at the grocery store when they get them food stamps! thats the one time each month they can decide what they will not eat, haha! a week later they are eating the pig parts most people throw away,," dang reggie why you be hogging up on all dem pigs feet fo?" see anybody can get on here and say stupid stuff. think about that the next time you decide to throw the race card out there for no good reason other than its all you have left.

what does the colour of their skin have to do with anything? oh let me guess your one of the po blacks that likes to use the race card as a way to exuse your miserable life.

Did you have an actual point, or do you just look for any possible opportunity to put your ignorance and racism on display?

I think they are "new age" job creators. Blow up the old bridge and put people to work building a new one. ;)

By definition, I believe Anarchists oppose any formal established government. As for the looks of these guys, I have friends that have Ph.D.'s that look as unsightly, although to be far most of them just forget to shower and shave. Looks and intelligence don't necessarily coincide.

(OMG - that bugs the crap out of me too - and they do it all the time!! The common past tense and past particle of plead is pled - yes, it looks funny but it is what it is!)

Then why aren't people hung? Why is it just pictures?

Pictures are hung. People are hanged.

That drives me crazy.

I prefer pled to pleaded as well.

Harold of...

Good point, but you sound like the late Andy Rooney. By the way, some people are hung, but not in the same way as a picture. As for pled vs. pleaded, I think it depends on usage. "Pled guilty" sounds better to me than "pleaded guilty", but I much prefer "pleaded for his life" over "pled for his life"

Especially making such a bold political statement by blowing up a bridge over a park in Cleveland, Ohio.

The national significance of such an event would have brought our government to it's knees.

Right after most of the nation looked at a map to see where Cleveland was.

@jack from Jax

In a plea deal with the court system, the prosecution really must have the evidence they claim in order to convict all of them

Plea deals are often the result of a lack of evidence on the part of the prosecution. If they had the evidence they need why would they offer them a deal?

#7 Because it's one of the few ways to get the sheeples attention these days.

Wy do these anarchist/terrorists always so ugly and stupid? Are there none in their ranks that aren't cerebelum challenged?

You are spot on Hiltz. I like what was said in the article, "Make no mistake, it was their plot"....very true. These people come in all shapes and sizes and harmless as those detonators may have been, they still intended to blow up the bridge. These guys are driven and single minded, like all anarchists are, and they may not have succeeded in bring down the bridge, but they would have succeeded in making a damn good attempt at it. Freaking Evil??? Is this a move or a bunch of freaks trying to harm people and damage property? And they are not kids, sorry. that is unless their mother is Grandma Moses, which would make her an antique and to her they might be kids, chronilogically speaking of course...burn them I say.

Mom should be happy her son is finally moving out of the basement and getting his own "place" for 15 years to life.......

Sounds like mommy did a few too many hits of acid back in the day, and probably burned out a bong just before making her ridiculous statements.

Thanks for the corrections! Now, can you tell us if there is an actual National Park in that location? I had never heard of it!

Oh well, in that case, blow up the damn bridge I say... roflmao....

Yep - CVNRA, or Cuyahoga Valley National Recreation Area does exist. Wasn't always a national park, though.

It was established by Frank A. Seiberling. He's better known as the man who founded Goodyear Tire & Rubber. :)

Route 82 maybe a two lane road, but it is a well traveled east-west route that many use to bypass the Ohio Turnpike.

Look like the type that may blow up a few temples or mosques. too bad

How would YOU view someone who owes a $16 trillion national debt, but refuses to pay it? And while we are about it, just WHO would you propose to be responsible for this massive debt, and when would you propose it's repayment?

We are talking apples and pears here McCllintock. Two totally different causes, and one was for political gain and change (sic) an the other was for survival in tough times. If the OWS could have afforded all those things that the Tea'ers had, would they both be considered radicals? As for the tea party'ers, are you sure you did not mean to say "spinclter" as opposed to "splinter" group. One group does not meet your hygienic standards, and the other one does, both protested to gain better control of government/corrption as it were, for the benefit and good of the people. However, the Tea'ers were all about their politics and the OWS movement was all about exposing corruption and making a difference for all, not just Republicans... @!$%# on the street? They both did that, one just more subtle than the other.

If you read my previous post, (#12) you'll note my assertion of the disparities between the mainstream media coverage of the tea party vs. OWS. Further proof of my assertion can be found if you surf the MSN homepage. Scroll down a bit and you'll come across an article titled "Occupy Movement, Older, Wiser." This piece of drivel is authored by a woman named Karen Aho. Take a moment to check it out.

Then I guess every nut job that within the past month shot up a public area killing several represents the NRA. What a clueless bunch.

Then you better think again. Guess the US military is now considered a terrorist group and should be reduced. All in the same week. No doubt these people would be found at as Tea Party event. Works both ways. Are you stating that all members of the US military are murders and looking to destroy the government? You must be...

'Anarchists' accused of murder; broader plot against government

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/28/justice/georgia-soldiers-plot/index.html

This much is clear: Four U.S. Army soldiers based in Georgia are accused of killing two people.

Beyond that, a Georgia prosecutor and federal authorities are offering differing responses to a possible plot by the group to overthrow the government and assassinate President Barack Obama.

"As far as the evidence has shown, the motive for the murders was the overthrow of the government," District Attorney Tom Durden said.

"This wasn't barroom talk," Durden said, describing the men as part of an anarchist militia. "They amassed a good bit of weapons and explosive materials."

Steven100

These guys are no different in their ideology than the so called "rebels" in Syria that are fighting a so called corrupted government, that the U.S. did recognized, and then Obama sent the "rebels" money to take that government down.

Smert one - aintcha?

Because the representative republic that we live in is analogous to a dictatorship. More reading - less Fox News

A bridge in the middle of no where! How is that effecting the government? Maybe a court house or something of that nature. They must be stupider than they look, if thats possible.

That bridge is used by many people to bypass the tolls on the Ohio Turnpike.

The WTC was a couple of buildings. Do people not travel on bridges?

ur a joke

just as i thought; asinine attempt at moral equivalence. you must be forgetting ted kazinsky; the unabomber; or Socialist Jim Jones;' or the Weather Underground; or the Black Panthers...............etc

I named Ted K--that is the Unabomber.

big effin deal

Olympic park bomber too. Don't forget him. He blew up an abortion clinic too, I think back in the early 90's.

200 pounds of plastic explosives is "violent."

So is two pounds.

Sync..

You seem to be grasping at straws. Even if your contention that the act of blowing up an inanimate object like a bridge does not constitute "violence", you must consider what the true target is. Is it the bridge, or the users of that bridge. An act like this is far less meaningful if it does not cause the loss of life, or at least severe injury.

Terrorism is the act of causing terror, and purposefully destroying something like a bridge has no meaning to a cause unless it causes terror to human beings. Your arguments have little merit.

If Obama had sons, they would be like them.

i was going to say it's a little early for liberal stupidity; then again if you are a liberal idiot you are one 24-hours a day. one has nothing to do with the other. moron

Has nothing to do with deregulation- Any thing to stir a pot-Troll

It's titled: "Occupy Movement, Older, Wiser." Written by Karen Aho.

Did you read the first line in the article? It said ANTI-Occupy. Do you know what ANTI means? It means the opposite of something. So this was NOT an OWS event, but an ANTI OWS event.

Sheesh and you complain about the writing of articles. Dang read and then comprehend!!!

Have you ever heard of media bias? It was a badly constructed sentence used to try to deflect attention away from this group's involvement with the OWS movement. And all this bias required was the omission of a comma. The phrase should have read: anti-Wall Street, Occupy Cleveland. If they really meant anti-Occupy Wall Street, it would have been written correctly.

I knew there was a reason I had you on ignore Gary. It is because you are ignorant. Thanks for making me right!

did you just drop in from another planet? everything is political here.

I don't think this story connects with the elecions in November.