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Subscribe to RSSThe Boy Scouts of America could face a wave of bad publicity as decades of records of confirmed or alleged child molesters within the U.S. organization are expected to be released in coming weeks.
On Sunday, the Los Angeles Times reported the organization failed to report allegations of sex abuse of scouts by adult leaders and volunteers to police in hundreds of cases from 1970 to 1991. In some cases, the Boy Scouts helped the accused "cover their tracks," the paper said.
The story was based on a review of 1,600 internal Boy Scouts case files the newspaper said it obtained that detailed accusations against confirmed or alleged child molesters within the youth organization.
About 1,200 "ineligible volunteer" files dating from 1965 to 1985 are set to be publicly released under a June order by the Oregon Supreme Court, including some already reviewed by the newspaper.
Those files played a key role in a 2010 civil trial in which an Oregon jury found the Boy Scouts liable in a 1980s pedophile case and ordered the organization to pay nearly $20 million in damages.
The files will be released within three to four weeks, said Paul Mones, one of the attorneys representing the plaintiff in the Oregon case.
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In the wake of revelations about systemic child sex abuse within the Catholic Church and the recent Penn State sex abuse scandal, the files threaten to damage the reputation of one of America's most trusted institutions.
Mones said the allegations revealed in the Oregon case are not necessarily comparable to the Catholic Church's sex abuse scandal.
"In the Catholic Church there were overt cover-ups, and I don't think you see a lot of that here with the Boy Scouts," Mones told Reuters on Sunday.
The Boy Scouts of America said in a statement on Sunday that while it regrets past incidents where scouts were sexually abused, its current policies require even suspicions of abuse to be reported directly to law enforcement.
"The BSA (has) continuously enhanced its multi-tiered policies and procedures, which now include background checks, comprehensive training programs and safety policies," the statement said.
The organization said it has maintained an internal "ineligible volunteer" file since at least 1919 to prevent suspected or confirmed child sex abusers from joining or re-entering its ranks.
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Boy Scouts of America officials and attorneys have said the files represent only a fraction of the adults who participate as scout leaders each year.
The Boy Scouts have annually counted between 3.5 and 5 million scouts and more than 1 million adult leaders and volunteers among its members since the 1960s, a spokesman for the organization said.
The organization is facing more than 50 pending child sexual abuse cases in 18 states, according to Kelly Clark, another plaintiff attorney in the Oregon case.
Mones said he did not expect many new lawsuits to result from the upcoming release of the Scouts' files, predicting that statutes of limitation on sex abuse charges in most U.S. states would prevent victims from successful civil or criminal prosecution of alleged molesters.
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Boy Scouts.... where "heterosexual" pedophiles are preferred to openly gay non-pedophiles.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Seriously...you are claiming that all of those who abused young boys in Scouting were heterosexual? So where did you get your information? I'm guessing you are just blowing smoke and raping and abusing children is not a completely heterosexual crime. Honestly, back in the day when homosexuals has to stay in the shadows being a boyscout leader would have assured gay men the opportunity to be a predator without detection because it seems that BSA would have covered their A$$ so to speak.
If you really wish to tout equality for GBLT you should probably make those arguments in articles where same sex child rape is not the topic.
RIP BSA. This behavior and the resulting lawsuits crippled the Catholics in the US. It will destroy the Boy Scouts. A pity.
They need uh, leadership. Now if only there was an organization designed to create ethical, strong leaders...
txmom32
I hate burst the bubble, but the majority of pedophiles are indeed heterosexual. It really doesn't matter anyway. Any HUMAN BEING that commits a sexual crime on a child is digusting and deserves the full punishment under the laws of this country.
'back in the day' when homosexuals had to stay in the shadows? You really should say, back in the day when homosexuals were FORCED to stay in the shadows, because society would have done more than deny them equal marriage rights. Please do not make this some attempt to BLAME homosexuals for what is happening in the BOA
Don't like BSA policies? Don't join, don't help, and quit whining.
txmom32 - there are countless studies out there, here's one...
(http://www.crisisconnectioninc.org/sexualassault/pedophilia_and_molestation.htm)
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People don't realize that the Boy Scouts have become a Mormon-led organization.
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... so hilariously ironic.
(a) I don't participate in Boy Scouts
(b) I'd rather have my boy around an openly gay male in an monogamous relationship than a closet pedophile who's married to a woman.
I suppose we could ask Dottie Sandusky what her marriage was like.
txmom, you need to re-read that post. Because the quotes are there for a reason.
Anyway, ever since the Boy Scouts turned into the "Altar Boy Scouts," an organization that condemns openly gay people and hides sexual abuse inside its organization, there's no sense in sending anyone's kids to it. I feel bad for all the people who had a great experience of the scouts growing up and accomplished incredible things with it. But it is clear to me the Boy Scouts are no longer 'of America' and are not the organization they once were.
Well let's see here...Don't you have to be gay to want sex with the same gender? This is why the Boy scouts don't want gays in the first place! No gays, no problems!
Time for a new "less hostile" nature loving non phobic religion free enterprise to fill it's place.
Stewards, not soldiers.
How do you know the4 gays are non-pedophiles?
"Don't you have to be gay to want sex with the same gender?".... NO. Child sex abuse is a crime of power and opportunity - look up the sex offender list online, usually both male and female children were abused. Are some homosexual? No doubt, like Jerry Sandusky - or maybe he is a twisted bi-sexual, maybe even he doesn't know what he is, sick b@stard.
Pederasty; sexual relations between two males, especially when one of them is a minor.
homosexual; person who is sexually attracted to members of the same sex.
Molest; to assault sexually.
If you are an adult Scout Leader or a male Volunteer and you are molesting little boys, by definition you are a child molesting homosexual.
Does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out.
95% of pedophiles are heterosexual but 60% of the victims are boys? Doesn't add up!
If you are a male pedophile molesting boys you are a Homo!
If you are a male pedophile molesting boys and girls, you are a Homo!
Homos can't be trusted anymore than normal people, pedophiles are sick and need to be removed from society, and I'm not to picky on how they're killed.
FYI T.K Anderson can't read and hates facts.
Industrial. "homos" as you so PC'ly put it, ARE normal people. YOU are not.
HELLO !
Pedophiles join organizations where children are involved.
Doesn't matter if its the Catholic Church, the Boy Scouts of America or the local ice cream man.
.
txmom32, let me guess- you probably model your marriage after Michelle Bachman. Self-hating "heterosexuals" are far more likely to be involved in pedophila than gay men. The discriminatory Boy Scouts makes gay kids think something is wrong with them, making them hate themselves for no reason. Between it and the Catholic Church, it's those of us who can't help who we are that are most victimized most by those of you who can.
Interestingly enough, most of the pedophiles within the Catholic Priesthood were/are closet homosexuals. So, I don't see how anyone can claim that gays aren't pedophiles, or that hetrosexuals are the only ones molesting children. 'Cause, neither is true.
Having said that, The Boy Scouts needed to take a good look at themselves for years. I was in a troop with a scoutmaster who used to kick boys in their rear ends. He would make a boy bend over, and then he would kick him in the bum, in front of other scouts. As "funny" as this sounds, it was not only demeaning to the boy being kicked, it was also highly dangerous. Serious physical injury could result from something like this, and the Boy Scouts of America did nothing to stop it.
There was also an assistant scoutmaster in the same troop, who would make the boys go into a crouching position much like a baseball catcher, and hold their arms out straight in front of them as punishment for "acting up."
Also, scouts were encouraged to "haze" other scouts at summer camp, that the senior scoutmaster didn't like.
Oddly enough the only Eagle Scout that troop produced was the scoutmaster's son. So, it's clear he was only their for one thing, and when he got it, he resigned his position.
I hope that he and his family read this. If they do, they'll know who I'm talking about. I hope that some of the "karma" he created for the boys in his troop, follows him, and his own offspring.
Oh my God people. It's not that difficult.
You can be a heterosexual AND be a pedophile.
You can be a homosexual AND be a pedophile.
Pedophilia is not at this time labelled as a sexual preference, it is listed as a mental disorder. You don't ask people "Hey, do you like males, females, or children?" "Youth" is not a third gender.
Stop trying to make this about the homosexual issue and saying this is another reason to justify locking out gays from the BSA. It's a completely separate issue. I'm not saying I agree or disagree one way or the other but...this a completely DIFFERENT ISSUE.
Those of you making this argument are sounding extremely uneducated and fearful.
hey "mark" you misspelled homosexuals ... and the solution for the boyscouts is to let openly homo's be troop leaders ... it worked so well for the catholic church.
In the catholic church, often the same pedophiles molested girls AND boys. This is a crime of power, not of passion.
A pedophile man having sex with a boy does NOT by any definition make him a homosexual--he is a man who is exerting power over a boy. Sandusky is the perfect example. He's married.
Farm boys have sex with sheep doesn't mean they're attracted to sheep.
The Catholics never let "openly homo's" be troop leaders AND/OR priests. NEVER!
Boy Scouts of America and/or the Catholic church teaching morals to America, I think not...
Strange how the largest institutions in America that proclaim to be richious and moral are the two largest defenders of pedophiles....
Think about that when your at church next Sunday and take a long look at the person standing next to you...
That's a stress position taught to armed services members in SERE training as one of the ways in which an enemy (if you are unfortunate enough to become a POW) might use to try and get info out of you. Vietnam POWs describe undergoing something similar, which is why it was incorporated in the training.
This is dangerous because when in a 'duck crouch' or other related position, oxygen gets trapped in the blood vessels of the lower legs under the folded knee. That trapped oxygen can form bubbles (called an embolism) and remain in the bloodstream even after the person stands up and bloodflow to and from the extremity resumes. If that bubble reaches the brain or heart it can stop the heart or cut off blood supply to the brain, causing brain damage.
I'm not sure if this is still true, but someone who becomes an Eagle Scout can use some of the badges earned as credits for our military academies and ROTC.
Zman...such a sad story of abuse. I can easily see how you have been permanently scarred by the experience. I'm sure you have a lawsuit somewhere. I have a question though. Where was YOUR father and why was he not there volunteering his time?
Nobody ever considers the guy that worked with scout for years just because it was the right thing to do. A PEDOPHILE is just a sick minded person. I just wonder how the past pedophile experiences effected the Scout's decision with the gay community and more possible lawsuits. I guess I'll have to ask my lawyer friend.
Shirily J.,..Thank you for the link that was very interesting. I don't know that it changes anything in relation to the fact that this is probably not a great article to maintain any stance for GBLT.
Itsabouttime....I don't know that I actually have a bubble to burst. I agree with your statement about anyone who does impose themselves on children should absolutely face the full punishment under the law. I personally couldn't care less if they identify with Hetero or Homo sexuality as an identifier.
I get that you are passionate about the ugly past that robbed many people of their lives and being accepted for loving who they chose. It is sad and regretful. My point thogh was if someone is serious about supporting the GLBT community it is probably not best to use a platform where children have been abused. I would say the same of any anti-gay zealot. Not a good platform to discuss sexuality in any reasonable form.
Thing is this is about those who choose to abuse children and the first thing the initial poster did was that whole nanny nanny boo boo thing about heterosexual v. homosexuals. This article is about an organization and their self-serving attempts to cover up crimes about children. They have not served their purpose if they have covered up one single crime agains a child in their organization. Apparently, they have a history of covering up this abuse so their organization will suffer. Once the information is released I am sure it will ignite a whole hetero/homo b*&ch s*&p contest. Sadly, once agin the true crime will be shoved to the back to see who can get into who's face first.
Mark....you could probably ask Dottie Sandusky but, it seems she was considerably less involved that Sandusky in raising their adopted son. She may or may not have known what a monster he was. If you are wanting to ask her if he was impodent when it came to their sex life...go for it.
Industrial Strength...again...it does not serve any agenda to try to b*&ch S&(p hetero/Homo in an article that is about an organization who has covered up the molestation of their members. It is about the BSA and a pre-story about the bigger story to come when they release their record. My guess is they have done some sort of analysis themselves which may or may not be a factor in the other big issue with BSA in not allowing openly gay scout leaders.
There have been some good points made on this forum...Mark from an above post said it well...an openly gay scout leader in a monogamous relation is a much better choice than a closeted pedophile. The fact that a prospective gay scout leader or any leadership position who is comfortable with his sexuality that he can say that being gay is a part of his life and sexuality involving children is not can be effective in providing a positive influence to support children.
I've seen the end to the BSA coming for a long time. If they don't allow gays, they are judged as discriminatory and homophobes, If they do allow gays, they're judged because a lot of parents don't won't their kids being led by openly gay men. It's a no win situation. And now we throw pedophiles into the mix....
(Regarding more pedophiles being heterosexual. Well of course. Pedophiles are mentally ill. And as about 10% of the population is homosexual, one would reasonably expect that only about 10% of pedophiles are homosexual. 90% of pedophiles being heterosexual would be the norm.)
People didn't read my post. I said that the Boy Scouts prefer "heterosexual" pedophiles who are in the closet, to openly gay non-pedophiles.
If there is a closet gay pedophile, that is beside the point. The Boy Scouts apparently take greater offense at the "gay" part than the "pedophile" part.
I'd much prefer an openly gay person because they're honest about who they are.
So on the one hand, you have John (who is gay, and was a leader in my church youth group, who is a fine person and never hid it, but never brought it up - and some people still hated him)... and you have someone like Jerry Sandusky (pillar of the community).
Despite the honesty of the original post of this thread, people still want to deny the truth and cover it up by collapsing the comment. Then you have people like txmom32 who lash out without knowing years of crime statistics that repeatedly show heterosexuals are largely the ones who sexually abuse kids. She's a lost ball in tall weeds for thinking it has anything to do with someone touting equality.
hs321...well said
Will you obviously have some chip on your shoulders and see yourself as a victim...that is very sad.
Since we are playing a guessing game...let me guess you are a person who sees life as black and white only with no gray. You feel that all GBLT people are victims and so they must qualify for some special interest accomodation to make it through life....that again is very sad.
You may have good intentions but you seem so preoccupied with some right wing conspiracy (Bachman reference) and some minority helplessness that your intentions are not serving the real need in the dialogue of GLBT issues. Most particulary where they apply to support young people to accept and understand their attractions and to help "GBLT teens" find their footing in life and to be comfortable in their own skin.
Again this forum is about the BSA history of hiding mollestation of their scouts. If you are looking for it to be a platform for GBLT rights it is a poor jumping off point.
Equality4all...i believe you are just lashing out at me without reading for content.
Bart #1.23,
How would you know? Is that why all the Altar Boys hair is parted straight down the middle?
It is not a sin, .... it is not a sin.... as he strokes the kid's hair side to side with the flat of his hands. Heh heh.
On another note, it seems no matter where you go, pedophiles are everywhere. They probably always have been but the instant media wasn't around to let the world know within 5 minutes...
txmom32
Thank you for both of your comments following mine. I agree w/you 100%. This is probably not the right forum to discuss GLBT rights etc. Its just unforunate (and I hope you agree), there will be and already is, someone on the newsvine who will equate this to more than what is happening in the BOA. The root of this story is definitely about human beings that perform haneous crimes on children, and that is more than unacceptable. I wish we had harsher penalities... its sick.
Why does a story involving paedophiles have to devolve into a gay vs straight debate. Being straight, and knowing many gay people, I can say that both sides tend to be against raping children.
Can't both sides come together on this issue?
The Boy Scouts ... where it's better to have your 12 yr old molested in the back of the scoutmaster's car than it is to have some faggot teach a kid to fish.
I'm trying to understand the homosexual code. If a man buggers a boy who is 17 yrs. and 364 days old, he's a pedophile. So on the boy's 18th birthday is the man a pedophile or a homosexual?
dirtydog200
Let me ask you.... What is the age of consent? answer that, and I think you will know the answer.
Itsabouttime...I agree with you. As this story goes...The BSA will undoubtedly be tainted because they are culpable in covering up abuses among their membership. Moving forward parents will weigh their decisions to place their children in a BSA program. They aren't going to make the decision based on who their current scout leader is now rather the scouting program as a whole and is the BAS serving the best interest of their child or their own best interest.
This dialogue can as easily equate to other aspects of a child's life: summer camp, sporting opportunity, scholastic events. That I know of none ask their volunteers or sponsors about sexual preference but all should absolutely run intense criminal background checks to make the greatest effort of keep our children safe from predators. This effort does not only serve to protect children but also those who volunteer in earnest. Along those lines parents also need to be involved in their kids activities and take proactive steps to connect with those who volunteer to have direct contact with their children. Unfortunately, pedophiles are opportunists...there are absolutely the Jerry Sandusys of this world who have managed to hurt children and still manage to earn the trust of a parent or parents.
In the wake of the PSU incidents, everyone and their brother called for the death penalty for not only the football program, but the Institution as well, I want to see all you people calling for the death penalty for the BIASED and HYPOCRITICAL BSA, They actually covered up incidents of molestation, its only alleged that a cover up was performed by Coach Paterno, if you want blood for Penn State, you had damn well better want it for the BSA
Every study ever done on pedophiles. They show that about half of them have no adult orientation at all, they are only attracted to children. The other half are also attracted to adult women....making them heterosexual. Less than 2% are attracted to adult men, or homosexual.
No....it's pedophilia. Pedophilia is a crime, regardless of the orientation of the abuser, but the FACT is, that pedophiles with an adult orientation are almost always heterosexual.
Except...it's not homosexuals who are the predators...it's fixated pedophiles and heterosexuals. Homosexuals are far less likely to be predators.
You do understand the difference between consensual sex between two mutually attracted adults...and the criminal rape of a child, right? Gay men are attracted to adult men, not children. Only pedophiles are attracted to children. Pedophiles aren't assigned an orientation based on the gender of the children they abuse as if that were just another acceptable form of sexual expression...they either have an adult orientation, or they are fixated. Of those that have an adult orientation, less than 2% are homosexual.
Pedophilia is about having absolute control and power over a vulnerable and helpless child. That's what turns on a pedophile...not the gender of the child which is most often determined by opportunity and habit. Their adult orientation has no bearing on what gender of child they abuse.
1 - Ever notice that the right-wing organizations which tout their "morality" are also the ones which aid and abet pedophilia? That's right - if they refuse to report their pedophiles or transfer them into a position where they can molest even more children, they are aiding and abetting pedophilia.
Maybe that's why the Catholic church is opposed to abortion and birth control - more children born equals more children to molest.
Any organization that harbors pedophiles is in no position to dictate morals.
Tom, I completely agree with you on Penn State. It was tragic that the actions of a handful of people were allowed to damage the lives of so many.
I thought the financial penalty and stripping of earlier titles was appropriate, but the additional actions that adversely impacted the current football players took things a step too far.
lmao...another fine christian based orgamnization exposed as a bunch of gay pedophiles..
NOT gay. "Heterosexual". Actual homosexuals don't prey on children.
@elrenno
Are you kidding me? "Actual homosexuals don't prey on children"? Where did you get that information?
I guess you never heard of NAMBLA or the Butterfly Kisses website...where they express how to get into organizations that will put homosexuals closer to young men and women?
I obviously am not so idiotic that I would think all homosexuals were pedophiles...but gimme a break on thinking all pedophiles are heterosexuals.
Don't pin pedophiles on heterosexuals. It's as disingenuous as pinning them on homosexuals.
Pedophiles are attracted to children. Not men, nor women.
Why do you assume they are "gay"? First of all over 35% of priests accused of child molestation were asked if they thought themselves to be "gay" they all answered NO and NO not all heterosexuals are pedophiles either. Thats just silly.
The majority of pedophiles say they are straight. That's what the research shows.
To elrenno, who wrote; "Actual homosexuals don't prey on children".
***********************
"I get your point, but I think you mis-stated what you were trying to say. A homosexual may or may not be a child molester, but there is no connection between homosexuallity and pedophilia. Gay people are as normal as heteros- no more, no less.
So if an adult gay male abuses a female child, you would consider that man straight?
No, you wouldn't.
Sexual orientation is determined by your adult relationships. Jerry Sandusky is straight. Someone who abuses a child is a pedophile, period. Gay does not equal pedophile. The facts are (as determined by police, child welfare workers, crisis lines, and organizations that help abused children and numerous studies) that 95% of pedophiles are straight men. Anyone here taking the opportunity to equate gays with pedophia is just using stories like these to bash gays. Or are they trying to deflect the spotlight from straight men, who are 95% of the pedophilia problem?
Whether they were straight, homosexual or bi-sexual is really irrelevant. The only term that matters is pedophile. Direct your anger at them. Not the entire class of citizens they come from.
BSA is an outstanding organization. There are bad apples in every group. I am surprised there are so few for the Scouts.
Who says homosexuals do not prey upon children? What makes them exempt from this abuse? Nothing.
Skup is right on.
Amazing how some people just lump it all up in one basket. Gay=Pedo? Seriously?
But then again... women's bodies shut down in times of rape so they don't get the preg.
And most drug addicts will swear that they don't have a drug problem.
Male molesting male is homesexual activity.
Unless of course you are Bill Clinton then the whole definition of 'Is" comes into question.
Industrial:
Male molesting male is a homosexual act. You are correct.
However, not all pedophiles participate in same-sex molestation. So your argument is a little faulty in a broad-spectrum examination.
Let me explain something to you:
A lot of proclaimed "straight" men also happen to be pedophiles and they choose male victims. These men don't deem themselves "gay." Molestation has more to do with power and control than actual sexuality.
So yes....homosexuals AND heterosexuals can be pedophiles. It's not mutually exclusive. Pedophilia is not a sexual preference like "gay" and "straight." You don't ask someone if they like males, females, or children.
We should be more concerned with protecting our children than the sexual preferences of their abusers.
6 American Soldiers killed over the weekend. 20 Nations having violent protests against the lefts beloved Obama & America.
And what kind of Bull shi* story do we get from the dangerous dishonest LAP DOGS in the media ???? This kind.
ANYTHING TO KEEP VOTERS PITTED AGAINST EACH OTHER! When will our Commander n Chief FACE the American people & when will the MEDIA DO THEIR JOB!!
They are a disgrace!
It's hilarious to watch this banter back and forth.
the REAL issue is these (all of those listed above)
Have been trying to access this organization and others to GAIN access to our CHILDREN!
That is the issue.
Love2Troops,
Would you prefer the media only print propaganda pieces and only cover the war?
You chose to click this story. There are many stories about the more serious issues of the day.
Tell me, how many hours have you actually spent in the news room? How familiar are you with the actual journalism process?
When you want to be on the front lines for very little pay as a media "Lap Dog"....please, let me know. Otherwise kindly take your conspiracy theories and blame to the correct story and stop derailing the topic.
Oh, and @imrightnotyou....thank you. Spot on.
Rick, can you cite the articles in which the pedophiles were gay? All the articles I've read indicate the perps were heterosexual. Do you know something nobody esle knows? Are are you exposing your bigotry?
Again...Regarding more pedophiles being heterosexual. Well of course. As about 10% of the population is homosexual, one would reasonably expect that only about 10% of pedophiles are homosexual. 90% of pedophiles being heterosexual would be the norm.
Pedophiles are mentally ill.
Pedophiles will always gravitate to organizations that place them near children, it happens with almost all organizations designed to deliver activities for young people, Boys and Girls Clubs, etc. Nothing exceptional about this article, this is commonly understood, so what now, ban all clubs, organizations like Boys and Girls Clubs, Boy Scouts, etc?
Also accusing all gay folks of being pedophiles is getting a bit old, its just the same old bigotry over and over again, the incidents of pedophilia among the Gay-Lesbian community is probably not greater than in the general heterosexual populations, maybe even less.
No, he would be bisexual not straight. Someone who is attracted to those of their same gender is homosexual. If you are attracted to both genders you are bisexual. If you are attracted to the opposite gender you are heterosexual.
And most alcoholics claim to be able to stop drinking anytime they want. And most drug abusers claim not to have a drug problem. Just because one self-identifies as x, doesn't mean they are x. Actions are the important thing not self-identification.
If it had to do with power and not sexuality, why not smack them around or some other physical non-sexual form of abuse? The fact that they abuse their victims in a sexual manner says it is about sex. Also, many of these abusers have multiple pics of young children on their computer. If it was about power, why would one want to look at pics of children in sexually compromising poses? Pedophilia is a perversion of one's normal sexual desires and a pedophile can be either straight, gay, or bi depending on the sex of the children they are attracted to.
Maybe Mr. Sandusky was only attracted to young boys and adult women but since he is male that attraction to other males makes him bi, whether or not he self-identifies as bi. A man attracted to adult males but female children would also be bi. A man attracted to adult females and young females would be heterosexual. A man attracted to adult males and young boys would be homosexual. A man attracted to children of both sexes would also be bi. Most pedophiles are probably bi.
@elrenno. If you believe that, I have a great fishing bridge for sale in the middle of the Desert.
The person who stated, "...another fine christian based organization exposed as a bunch of gay pedophiles" ignored the fact that the article says that there are over a million adult leaders and volunteers and 50 lawsuits. Given those statistics, it doesn't sound like A BUNCH of "gay pedophiles", but it might point up the reason why the scouts officially do not allow gay leaders, volunteers, OR scouts. If even one scout is abused by anyone of the same sex connected to the organization, especially if the organization KNOWS they have someone gay working closely with children of the same sex, immediately you have people suing them or making ignorant statements like that. No, not all pedophiles are gay, but it is pretty obvious that a pedophile will try to get access to their "preferred" sexual gender victim, which would make going through scouting, coaching, or other youth organizations the best way to get this access, especially if said organization is barred from excluding gay people. I would hope that Girl Scout leaders would be females if they will be spending time alone with the girls. and that older Boy Scouts would not have female leaders spending time alone with them. (It appears that most of the time female sex offenders prefer at least adolescent boys) This still would not guarantee that in this sick world an older person would not use time alone with young people to take advantage of them, but it would at least offer less opportunity for abuse.
If it is same sex it is gay, or bi so except what it is, even if you don't want to, or blame it on Islam but that is not the behavior of a straight person, actually Pedophiles are in a class of their own, they are not confused about who they are, and they don't advertise it, they are truly sick, so sick that they cant fall into any category except their own, like the predators that they are they hide where the pray is, and passing as something other than what they really are they are cameleons that blend into the surroundings, the priest collar just there camo, boy scout uniform another style of camo, coach camo, teacher camo or cop camo what ever works to get them to their hunting ground. and they come in both sexes, they are dangerous predators and should be dealt with harshly, as harsh as death by hanging, because these creepy creatures deserve to die, they hide in plain sight, they are your worst nightmare, you probably see and talk with one or more on a daily basis and cant see them for what they are, they are the epitome of evil, and evil loves to appear as your friend. evil speaks kindly, evil smiles politely, evil is cunning, pedophiles are evil. if they turn out to be a problem for society then it is the fault of society for not killing them when and where ever they are found. you don't need to take the boys 20 million dollars you need to prosecute the guilty, let the boys keep there money. don't blame the victims (boy scouts) blame the perverts and those who tried to hide the problem because of the shame, and the finger pointing liberal that cant see that they were prayed upon by the predators. it was not the boy scouts that did this it was the predators that infiltrated the boy scouts, just as they infiltrate liberal minds every day. its a pity the boys will lose there money, and suffer the shame when they were not the guilty party, what kind of judge would do that (a liberal one) they should penalize the responsible people not the kids. it looks like they are trying to destroy everything that leans to the right. and they are succeeding.
Or maybe Mr. Sandusky's wife wouldn't put out, and he loved her too much to "cheat" in the sense of being with other women, so he took advantage of his position of authority and children in his care who were easy, insecure targets? It's that position of trust that allows people to take advantage of their authority all the time, whether they are clergy, police, bosses, scout leaders, etc. So when do we decide to be honest about sexual deviancy and what it actually is?
It seems to me that everyone seems to have different tolerance levels for what is considered acceptable. I mean, the vast majority of us would deem extra-marital affairs as bad, but that doesn't seem to stop the rest of society from doing it. So what is it about our sexual brains that allows us to know what the societal rules are and act outside of them anyway? This happens all over the world, even in strict Muslim countries where everything under the sun is frowned upon, men commit acts of bestiality in order to achieve sexual gratification. And the reality is that gay people have long known that society on the whole does not approve of homosexual acts, yet because we're all deep down a bit deviant, I'm fairly certain the vast majority of us who still view homosexual sex as bad feel like "we don't really have room to talk," so we have to side with the gays (an honesty poll needs to be taken of the 50% pro-gay people out there--are you pro-gay rights because you really believe that what gays do is okay, or are you pro-gay because the things you do are also not fit for polite society). But back to my point, is our sexual function still an animalistic part of our code that can only be tamed by rigid rules and dogma, and with the sexual revolution of the 60's to present, has our dogma been destroyed to the point that we have lost all control? Are we all doing things we regret? Are we all justifying our actions by pointing out that everyone else is doing it, and that's okay because we're really just high-class monkeys? Or have some of us really evolved to have sexual self-control that isn't dependent on society--ie do those of us who do not deviate or who deviate less have different sexual functioning brains? Are pedophiles straight or gay really sexually different from adults who do not commit lewd acts with minors? Gay men are different, their brains responding sexually to male scents (Pheromones, if you believe humans have those) and not at all to female scents, yet gay women seem to have the ability to choose, not responding sexually to either scent. Is that all biological, or is it conditioning (we need a blind study on the brains of non-sexually active adolescents who may not even realize their full sexuality, I guess). But do people who commit sexual acts with animals actually have a sexual arousal caused by the animal (scent response), or is it just an act of convenience? We have to get past the stigmatization of the whole affair and start looking at what the underlying causes and effects are.
WOW!! after reading these posts I am amazed at the number of mental health people we have in here.. it's wonderful sharing all this wealth of knowledge
1.. GAY is not a perference .. I mean why would anyone chose to be a person the is abused and terrorized daily, especially by the likes of you f olks..
2.. hetrosexual males are the 99% of the pedophiles
3.. many of you need to do some research before you start spouting stuff.. try to get your facts right..
4... please know of what you speak before you speak
5.. THIS IS IMPORTANT.. The largest group of know pedophiles is in the CATHOLIC church.. thousands of clergy are pedophiles.. and I don't hear a word from any of you to get these men out of hiding and get them to jail where they belong.. you all become outraged and alomst insane when you speak of a gay man , since they are twisted perverts RIGHT!!! but not a word about this deviate LOL celibate LOL religious dirt bags..
I think that the reason this subject is coming up is the fact that the Boy Scouts have maintained their anti gay agenda, which I do agree with. You can find this type of sick activity anywhere you look in this world. If the Boy Scouts didn't have the agenda that they do I doubt that the LA Times would have bothered looking into this subject. It seems that if you don't bow to certain groups you become a target. People aren't allowed to have their own opinions anymore.
The high and mighty organization that discriminates against others is not so high and mighty after all -very ironic and very hypocritical.
For the record pedophiles are most often straight because as boys they were molested...statistically they are heterosexual. Then they grow up to repeat the cycle.
..
You know, web site (and newspapers) are quite capable of dealing with multiple news stories at one time, even if you aren't.
LU_132
so since you do not approve of homosexuals.. what do you really believe in... I can only hope that your support in this matter is your BIBLE... so just a few facts..
you bible says you mau only wear one type of fabric at the same time
touching pigskin is a SIN.. bye bye football
having sex in any position other than missionary is a SIN, having sex for anything other than procreation is a SIN.. and if you are beyond the child bearing years you may no longer have sex..
when a young girl gets married, if she is not a virgin she is to be dragged to her fathers front step and there be STONED to death
adultry is a SIN yet many of you are consumed by it's pleasures and you believe it's ok
gloutny is a sin yet many of right winged christian haters are OBESE.. strange how these thigs work..
one might have to call it a double standard
BARRY
I guess I am the only one but I believe this chaos is driven by the Karl Roves and the george bushes of this political campagin..I would put nothing past those man
You people make make me laugh when you say that a male that molests little boys is NOT a HOMO!! There are TWO kids of pedophiles. If a man molests a little girl,he is a HETERALSEXUAL PEDOPHILE! If he molests little boys,he is a HOMO PEDOPHILE!But if he molests BOYS AND GIRLS,he is a BISEXUAL PEDOFILE!! Why is it so hard to determine that?!!
man this is proof that you guys will fight over anything. If he touched a little boy, he is probably gay AND a pedofile. If he touched a little girl, he is a pedofile. Let's not split hairs over terminology. Both are disgusting human beings.
P.S. if you let a lesbian be the troop leader, nobody is gonna get touched except her girlfriend/wife and it's not gonna happen in front of your kid. Don't trip about her politics and what she is teaching your little boy. At least she isn't molesting him.
I guess your point is that it's impossible for a lesbian to be a pedophile. Hmmmm!
first you need to practice your spelling then you need to reread your post.. none of the thing you say is true..
molestation is just that.. it is a deviate exerting his power over someone smaller an younger.. that persons sexuality is truly not an issue..
Now I gotta ask did your right wing church teach you this garbage
Matthew Coons....
You're missing the point. The point is that it's NOT about whether they're attracted to male or female.
Who cares. They're doing what they're doing anyway, regardless or orientation, and it's wrong.
Also....try to look into some psychiatric research before you just start trying to disprove things that are held as scientific fact. Yes, science can change as new developments come along....but the majority of professionals maintain that abuse of ANY KIND (that's right, sexual too!) is about power. Rape is about power for most offenders. Sex is just the channel they chose to exert it through. It's not just the sexual act that is done by the offenders...these guys (and yes, sometimes women too) "groom" their victims and often bribe them with gifts, threats, etc.
That is grooming. If you want to reference Sandusky...you'll see plenty of that behavior in that case.
Max, I'm sorry you're bitter, so you felt it necessary to make such a big reach there. You don't have any idea what I believe, so you just guessed, and quite frankly, you were wrong, as I was speaking in generalities. That's too bad too, because if you re-read what I wrote, I was calling for an honest look at what deviancy really is, and it's people like you on both sides of the fight that make that honest look impossible. I don't think we know enough about ordinary sexual brain function. Are you afraid that if it was looked at too hard, we would discover homosexuality is just a social deviancy? Or worse, we might discover it is a medical condition that could be treated? For the record, I do believe that homosexuality has become acceptable to society through the sexual revolution and a shift by society away from not just Christianity, but all religions. Whether that shift in society away from religion is good or bad depends on whether or not we believe we need firm rules in order to behave human--is it the rules that make us human? Personally, I've had many gay friends whom I like as people, and I don't believe anal sex (gay or otherwise) is healthy, yet neither of these personal opinions have any sway in my idea of whether or not homosexuals are born or made or whether or not I judge a person based on their sexual behaviors in private (though I might judge them on their sexual behaviors in public). However, if you were to show me gay porn, I'd probably run squealing from the room; I'd also do this with some heterosexual porn though, so I don't think it's fair to judge me on the basis of this. You should really try to be a little less judgmental yourself. Waving your fairy stick and proclaiming all people who don't openly stand beside you to be bible-thumping idiots makes you look just as stupid as the actual bible thumping idiots you so detest. ;)
I'm surprised people haven't figured out that pedophiles are neither homosexual nor heterosexual. Some people might say: "Well Sandusky had a wife." Well so do many closet homosexuals...doesn't make them straight.
Isn't Travolta married to a woman too?
The more important point is that if any proof of covering up of the heinous crime of child molesting is found it is nothing more than aiding and abetting the molesting of children. The perpetrators of the cover up should be arrested and tried. If convicted they should be jailed just like the molester. The victims should also pursue the matter in the civil courts and sue the organization and sue the perpertrators of the cover up if any evidence of covering up the molesting of children is found. Just like some churches, most notably but not exclusively the Catholic Church love for and protection of the organization must never take precedence over the protection of the children from sexual abuse. The molesting of a child whether same sex or opposite sex shoulld never be tolerated. Both are equally wrong and repulsive. To say one is worse that the other is wrong and those who claim so should be ashamed of themselves.
Pretty sure the jury is still out on that one.
BW: Ever hear of Adam Flanders?
There is a correlation between the two. A lot articles say also this about gays and molested children:
maxgiver wrote "2.. hetrosexual males are the 99% of the pedophiles"
This source states that 86% of pedophiles described themselves as homosexual or bisexual.
W.D. Erickson et al., Behavior Patterns of Child Molesters, 17 ARCHIVES SEXUAL BEHAV. 77, 83 (1988).
Given that homosexuals are 1% of the population, that is a huge revelation. The Boys Scouts have done a lot by formally banning the most likely type of sexual predator.
Hey! Did you guys knows that 60% of all percentages are made up?
Why are you going after the boy scouts and not the sources of pedophile behavior?
What about the legal pedophiles? How come these perverts are immune from prosecution? Who, in their right minds, would support the sexual mutilation of their sons in the name of some sick religious rite? Where is your out cry on these freaks?
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4240096,00.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/14/nyregion/health-board-votes-to-regulate-jewish-circumcision-ritual.html?_r=1
Maxgiver: Apparently you don't know the bible as well as you think you do......
Let me draw your attention to Colossians 2: 13- 23
Shocking! I'm sure they would all answer "yes" if asked if they thought they were men of god, too.
Isn't that a Morality Based Right Wing type of Organization?
What? There are no Democrats in the Boy Scouts?
ranknfile, you hit it right on the head; there are no morality based left wing organizations, lol.
ranknfile,
We do not question the morality of liberal atheists like you. We already know that you have none.
Hypocrisy is a plank in the reich-wing "morality" platform.
And there are no hypocrites in the left wing.
Wait...didn't Obama just give the cigar-smoking, filthy rich, wall street and banker fat-cat's a $40 billion dollar bailout on mortgage debt at taxpayer expense? Oh, but that's not hypocritical because the left has always said they are for the rich and not the little guy.
I'll leave it to the talking pointers to explain what Obama has to do with this story or the reich wing either. A hypocrite is a hypocrite whatever his political persuasion. The leaders of the Boy Scouts of America are hypocrites if they pretend to promote morality by excluding gay children but then cover up for leaders who actually abuse children. I can think of one or two other organizations that do that, at least one of them a major religeon.
hs321
the left has never they are for the rich guy.. get your facts straight.. lots of reading material available if you can read
Skup - there may be Democrats in the BSA but you know we're not running it because they voted to ban gay members. If we were in charge, banning gay members/troop leaders would have never happened so yeah - The BSA is a right wing organization.
Ranknfile, yes it is where else do you know of a better hiding place for a left wing pervert then in a right wing orientated organization, besides a pedophile will most likely to go to where the children are and that leaves out any thing from the left because the left offers youth nothing, so that makes it necessary to jump lines. it would be nice if the lefties would $hit in their own yard. start up a liberal youth organization so these people can stay on the left. just wait till you find out about what is going on in your liberal schools. the media keeps that news down but it happens every day. kids are in more danger at school then they are at a scout meeting. Obama hates scouts so this is worthy of media attention, to destroy the organization, not to fix a problem.
I would like to see some lefties start a liberal, tree hugging atheist coed organization based on a do as you damn well want, attitude that will require 100% government sponsorship because these kids will not be allowed to downgrade themselves by earning money, to support their organization. instead they will learn to beg for money so they can buy rainbow flags and provocative outfits to wear in parades, ya Id like to see that. then they can also be taught how to protest in a multitasking way 6 complaints at once if you cant get sympathy for one issue you have 5 more for the public to pick from, how can you loose, and don't forget the Sunday persecute the Christan's gatherings followed by the vegetable eating contest. what a hoot, and to top it off they can have a worship a celebrity hour, and a who has the cutest behind contest.
You BibleGrippers are a Strange Bunch of Folks.
Why are you going after the boy scouts and not the sources of pedophile behavior?
What about the legal pedophiles? How come these perverts are immune from prosecution? Who, in their right minds, would support the sexual mutilation of their sons in the name of some sick religious rite? Where is your out cry on these freakin' pedophiles? With rare exception, the BSA is very much against pedophiles and homos molesting the boys. Who could be against that? What are their motives?
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4240096,00.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/14/nyregion/health-board-votes-to-regulate-jewish-circumcision-ritual.html?_r=1
So it only stands to reason that ALL BOY SCOUTS, the entire SCOUTING COMMUNITY is a cancer on our society because there are documented cases of evil scout leaders. GREAT REASONING NBC!!!
Let's now apply this logic to NBC! I am willing to BET MY HOUSE that over the decades there have been some of the most heinous and disgusting offenses committed at NBC and its many affilliates by employees of NBC such as sexual assault of a boss against a subordinate, sexual harrassment and other such related offenses. How do I know this? Because NBC hires humans to staff their operations and it is impossible to know for certain how a person thinks and may act until they have been caught. So, using NBCs reasoning, it is safe to say that EVERYTHING that is NBC is evil and perverted because they have employed perverted people.
WAY TO GO NBC! Now please go back and rewrite this story in its proper context...Boy Scouting is not bad, but sometimes bad people are involved in Boy Scouts. THAT is the truth...unlike the ridiculous lies that NBC reports.
Maybe to someone that believes in nothing, that's all part of the problem these pedophiles that hide in our world are not the believers they are outsiders that moved in and hide within the group to do their dirty deeds, lets look at it from the liberal setting Sandusky used Penn State to do his dirty deeds and a couple individuals hid what he did, who was made to pay! the university and the student body along with the athletics dept and so on allot of innocence got sucked up into the the bad actions of the few, money won't fix anything forget the money, Sandusky went to jail his pension is still going to his wife, and she was hiding what he did, the university took the hit, that is screwde up beyond reasoning. its the pedophiles that hide out where the victims are that is the problem, not the organizations themselves, the difference between smart and stupid is that stupid blames the organization and smart blames the individual. in all these cases innocent people were penalized for what only a couple of people tried to hide and what one individual did. now some 20 million dollars raised by kids for their Jambories and such is being given away because of what some small group of individules did, don't take the boys money take the individules money, the cout always turns the victims into a responsible party, the boys did not do this to themselves its the boys money that the judge is so generiously giving away. the boys just became victims again. and the most frustrating part of all this is the Idiots that sit back and say this is a conservative thing. when its really a invasion of the conservatives that happens simply because the conservatives established the organizations that these unwelcomed evil predators are lurking around in.
It's about time! I have worked Scout Masters who were 'homosexual' and would cut off their testes before they would harm a child. And, there are the pedophiles (and some senior boy scouts) who are buried deep within the culture of BSA, without morals, secretive, & know very well 'how to play the game' of intimidation of the younger scouts & the Cubs!
Too often the younger Scouts have no clue of what is happening to them until it's too late & the damage is done! Granted, the Catholic church has a longer history of these kinds of problems BUT the BSA orgs. are by far more active & aggressive in their behavior.(pedophiles). They wrap themselves in the American flag, go to church and meetings & wouldn't say sh-it if they had a mouthful!
Don't misunderstand me, I love the BSA & all they stand for but the 'pedophile' behavior is alive & well in several Scout camps!!!!!! Just as we teach our children not to talk to strangers etc. The new kids should be informed of this behavior & what to do about it.
GIL - I agree. Pedophilia is unacceptable no matter what organization. This is NOT a right or left wing issue or a Republican or Democratic issue. Taking that stance allows the evil and ugliness in our society to exist which clearly has permeated everything good; our religions, our youth groups, our schools. Why aren't these critics out there fighting against NAMBLA or some other openly perverted organization. Oh that's right! Its freedom of speech even though its wrong. And don't tell me who am I to decide what's right or wrong. Pedophilia is WRONG! Absolutely WRONG! Men abusing boys is wrong. Knowing that NAMBLA and other pedophile organizations exist, doing nothing to close them down and having us believe its because of freedom of speech gives us an easy excuse to hide behind. History will see these times as being one of excuses made by all society.
The Catholic Church and many other churches along with the BSA have these issues in the light by releasing all their records. I'd agree that they were late to the witness stand and now its all out and we need to remember that their are good people in these groups. What was done is wrong, just like I stated. Having these groups openly exist hiding behind Freedom of Speech is wrong. Freedom of Speech comes before protecting children? Somewhere along the line we got it wrong!
Lets see... right wing Boy Scouts organization, bans gays and rapes children.
Right wing religion, the Catholic Church, anti-gay and rapes children.
You know what, you right wingers can keep all these "morals" that you love. I am proud to say I am a left winger who does not have these child-raping "morals".
Dear mguy-478,
Well of course you can alw...
...Wait a minute! ...WOW! I can't believe it!!
I don't know what came over me! I was just about to respond to mguy-478 with the intent of using some logic and reasoning, but then it just occured to me that he is unable to understand those things, and I do not know how to speak the language of the left-winged-boobi-bird. Any translators out there who could dumb this stuff WAAAAAY down and explain it to the boobi??
Apparently, open homosexuals may not have a role in the organization due to their "immorality," but secret pedophiles are totally welcome.
My uncle was a scout leader for many years. He was a good man and all of the kids loved him. He NEVER did anything inappropriate with any of them. They fired him. Why? Because when grandma died he finally decided to come out. PEDOPHILES AREN'T GAY AND GAYS AREN'T PEDOPHILES! Christ, why does everybody beat this non-issue to death? When I was in the Army; we had gay troops. We also didn't care. They fought as well as anyone else and kept to themselves about their sexuality. Now they don't have to keep to themselves; still nothing has changed. LEAVE THE DAMNED GAYS ALONE!
No, none of them, are welcome and you know it. BSA has a very active program to keep the kids safe from abuse. Nothing is perfect.
Who says gays cannot be pedophiles?
Who says apples cant be tangalopes? Phooey to statistics and math and stuff.
NC- "The BSA has a very active program to keep kids safe." You mean like covering up sex abuse for years, moving scout leaders (like the Catholics moved the priests, telling parents it wasn't happening and withholding evidence? Guess that is why it works so well (sarcasm).
It isn't perfect because the BSA council and other administrators look the other way (did for years, anyway). You think we should just trust them now? Why would we do that, when it has taken court orders to force them to tell us about these cases? Because they have been so honest? (more sarcasm)
If they discriminate against gays (which they do) yet have a proven record of not protecting children, what is the logic in that?
The Boy Scouts ... where it's better to have your 12 yr old molested in the back of the scoutmaster's car than it is to have some faggot teach a kid to fish.
Can't be. Gays are not allowed in the organization, and everybody knows that gays are the ones who do such things. The Boy Scouts of America is an honorable organization, with honorable members and leaders. Pardon my sarcasm.
Attempting to reclassify a pedophile as Gay, straight, or any thing other than a pedophile wont work, killing them will. thats the right wing response, what say you on the left?
The problem is bigger then them invading the Church, the boyscouts and the schools, the problem is that these predators are all over our society, and we are blaming just a couple organizations when they are everywhere. everywhere where there are children that is, it just so happens that the conservatives run almost all the youth organizations, except for the public schools that also have the problem, stop attacking the organizations and go after the individules that are the problem. taking the organizations money is like penalizing the victim, go for the person that commited the crime. and when you catch a pedophile, castrate them and cut out their toung, that will make them think, they should also get a extra circumcision about 4 to 5 inches worth. just leave enough of a stub to pee. you people are so afraid of hurting someone that is out to hurt you. do on to others before they do on to you. in this case one strike you are out. send the perverts and their protectors to prison but leave the boys money alone.
D Buck wrote " they should also get a extra circumcision about 4 to 5 inches worth."
So, what do you propose for a punishment of female sexual predators ? Sexual predators are found in day care facilities as well. Women are responsible for the bulk of general child abuse, which is no surprise given that children spend nearly all of their day in a society of women.
So you are under the delusion that males who sodomize boys are ......heterosexuals who are what?? confused?
It's very simple: male on male sex is homosexuality.
Got it?
WRONG, Con-science, you are under the delusion that males who sodomize boys are anything other than...pedophiles, who are attracted to the age, not the gender, of their prey.
It's very simple: people who are attracted to children are pedophiles. Homosexuals are attracted to adults of the same sex; heterosexuals are attracted to adults of the opposite sex. Approximately 90% of all pedophiles/child molesters are heterosexual, married men.
Got it?
The scouts were supposed to shape me into a better person. But all it did was ruin me. I was kicked out after my father beat the holy crap out of leader who touched me. The BSA council did nothing, cuase he was a good one, blah blah. They protect who they want, and those are the ones with money.
How did the leader touch you? Yes, if you dad beat him up, then you would probably be asked to leave. There is more here than you are saying.
Why does there have to be "more here"? There are many dads out there would would beat the crap out of another man who was in a position of power and influance and choose to use that position to touch his child. How is that hard for you to understand? Are you looking for details of the touching?? And why would they ask the son to leave the scouts after he had been touched and happened to have a loving father who defended him, instead of asking the troup leader to leave? That is the bigger question.
getting kicked out after your father beat him up..how did he touch you.. just curious sir.. I agree with sally lu.. you have only scratched the surface of our intrigue..
I honestly believe that the story hath just begun
Idiots..... I have no pity for them.
"the files threaten to damage the reputation of one of America's most trusted institutions."
As far as I'm concerned, they lost that designation about 6 months ago.
Good riddance to them and their "good name".
and any federal/state/local assistance they receive at the expense of the american taxpayer.
Just can't bring myself to buy the boy scout popcorn any more, the kids are selling it at the grocery store now. I just politely decline and keep going, feel sorry, but just can't support the Boy Scouts any more.
BSA already receives only minor federal assistance and that is for some national activities.
BSA is a great organization but nothing is perfect.
I repeat this is just another CYA story to divert attention from Obama & his VOID foreign policy
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" (Obama)
said the mighty wizard of OZ (lap dog media)
Better get back over on Faux news for idiots and their flag waving all american blather....love2troops indeed
Love2troops - Yes, MSNBC is trying to divert attention away from what is going on the the middle east by posting headliner articles about it, while this story is in small print off to the side. I can see how that would work.
Enlighten me.... on Obama's VOID of foreign policy, I am all ears... #1.50 Go to this article, read that comment, and then tell me.
Mom just warmed up a hotpocket for him. He's busy at the moment..
My kid was in Boy Scouts for four years, until 2010. My problem with the organization was that the things I thought my kid would learn about, i.e. a love and respect for the natural world, charity, developing outdoor skills, etc., always seemed to come in a distant second to the first role of the scouts: FUNDRAISING. Besides paying our usual fees, we were constantly dealing with sales pitches and demands for our time and money--not for nursing-home visits or donations to charity, but to raise money for the Boy Scouts.
My feeling is, the Boy Scouts is a pontentially-valuable organization that is badly mismanaged. It should update its practices and policies, and probably overturn its management. Who runs the Boy Scouts, anyway?
I will say, the four-day annual family summer camp at Camp Scouthaven was always fantastic (inedible food notwithstanding). If I could pay for my kid (and my wife and I) to go to that camp every year, I'd do it. Otherwise the Boy Scouts didn't do much of anything for us.
I agree with you karl-dean. My husband was a leader for 3 years. Money and god were always dominating.
The Girl Scouts are no better. Cookie sales made up 90% of program. It fostered animosity and competition among the girls (even in their own troops) and caused jealousy and accusations over money among the leaders.
Thats a shame. It wasn't always that way. The only fundraising I remember was earning money to get to Jamboree once a year. I grew up in a large city and camping , hiking, fishing, they were things I never would have gotten to do otherwise. I love them to this day.
I am a Boy Scout leader, and other than Popcorn and Friends of Scouting, we do no other fundraising. Sounds like your troop tried to fundraise everything and forgot to just ask the parents to pay for things like food, etc.
So, how much do you spend on other activities for your son? Football, baseball, kung-fu, whatever... I bet the costs are pretty high for those activites and gear too. Many parents don't keep these things in perspective.
I was in scouts too. We did do some fun activities; but, some of the activities were just not right for me. I was living in an abusive home - and the main activity during my summer boy scout camp? fighting. They made us all play their version of King on the mountain where they made all the boys get in a big pile to FIGHT their way to the top. One of the scout masters asked why I wasn't playing and I started to cry and he called me a Sissy. Needless to say, I didn't go back. I was getting beaten up enough at home by my father and step brother. I too thought I would learn about " love and respect for the natural world, charity, developing outdoor skills, etc"; but, that didn't happen. I think the scouts should look more at a Man's character than his sexual habits. Hell, I think people should be required to have a license to raise kids in any capacity.
JustaJoe1 - Unfortunately, I think the type of experience you had with scouting is more common than most people would think. Through my adult professional experience, I learned that many scout organizations involve bullying and belittling justified by some leaders' attempts to make "manly" men out of adolescent boys. That, coupled with their policy of excluding gays as leaders and members, caused me to lose all respect for BSA.
membership in both BSA and GS has been plummeting over the past decade and I think that can mostly be attributed to an inability to adapt over time. Girls are getting bullied in school and dealing with sex at a younger age and they want to teach lessons about sewing and cooking? Good grief. It's the same thing with the inability to adapt to homosexuality. They're going to keep losing members and good leaders over this stance but covering the tracks of pedofiles may just be the nail in the coffin for BSA.
As for the costs of my kid's scouting, we (and other parents) had no problem with paying for scouting directly to avoid the constant fundraising, but the pack leadership always deferred to its instructions from "council," which I suppose is the BS governing board.
I think the program is extremely difficult for the adult volunteers to administer. I'd never volunteer to do it, myself. The scoutmasters were good men and women who tried their best, but just controlling a "den" of 8-year-olds is tough enough, let alone trying to teach them something. The instructors at summer camp, in contrast, were great. But I imagine they get paid something, and this is more of a job for them (for which they've been trained, etc.).
When I take my kid to Tae-Kwon-Do now, he's instructed by people with certifications and training (and salaries), so maybe that's the big difference. Boy Scouts might actually employ more people, certify them and train them and so forth. It might cost more, but the experience would probably be better all around. Maybe.
I know what you mean on fundraising. They were told to sell high dollar popcorn that nobody wanted. When my daughter was in girl scouts I had people coming to me wanting the cookies but when popcorn sales started everybody suddenly disappeared.
I hope the Bigot Scouts of America get what they deserve
They cover for pedophiles but won't accept LGBT. Well ...
Those (pedophiles, LGBT) are all perverts, so, what is the point?
NC - homosexuals are perverts ? let me guess, its because of the sex acts they do, right ? they perform fellatio and anal intercourse.. and of course heterosexuals don't practice these sex acts.. right ? ... hmmm...
NC: And we all know there are no heterosexual perverts right? (SARCASM) You are such a bigot.
@Phoenyx13
You're right, heterosexuals do practice those things....on members of the opposite sex. Don't try to make something so very different so similar.
I have to say this is as egregious as the Penn State situation, if not more so. Interesting how this, Penn State and Catholic church are all male-dominated organizations. Until men learn/choose to stop turning a blind eye to these kinds of things and holding one another accountable and STOP operating from a good-ole-boy position, all men will be under an umbrella of suspicion and that's really sad.
This kind of egregious activity and cover up would never happen in a female-dominated organization - most moms/women are tuned in to this kind of thing and would not stand for it.
Come on good guys, take a stand!
Only gay men would have sex with boys. Pedophiles are gay men in disguise because only a gay man would want a dick of any age.
This is also about money. If the gay community is not welcomed in the BSA then they will sue them like they do everyone else and try to destroy them so if they can't play, no one else can. The fringe are so one-way. I would be mad too if my favorite fishing hole was suddenly posted off limits to me "specifically".
And they call breeders bigots.....LOL
Based upon arousal measurements, approximately 9 out of 10 pedophiles are aroused by grown women, and 1 out of 10 is aroused by grown men (when they are aroused by adults at all, which many are not). This is regardless of the child's gender. Empirically most pedophiles are attracted to a particular child's age rather than gender.
Basically, a gay man or a straight man are equally likely to be a pedophile. The gender of the child is immaterial.
Coolhand
Maybe you should educate yourself on pedophiles before you spout nonsense. Really, google it. It's not that hard if you really want to learn. If you don't want to just so you can keep you're misinformed opinion, then by all means, stay blind to facts.
cool hand
i dont mean any disrespect, that is a very bigoted idea your pusing. Your thought process and the like will keep children sexaully abused for years and years to come by people who are not gay; openly, closeted or in denial and by people who are not men.
a sexual deviant is a sexual deviant. I believe what EngEsq said to be accurate, they prey on age not sex.
men as well as women can be sexual deviants; how they identify themselves wont keep children from being abused. dont get stuck on creating right wing conspiracies.
the term itself means child lover. it makes no distinction between gender, so neither should we.
before i get accused of something i'm not, I am a happily married straight man with children. currently I do not have any friends who are openly gay. I dont proscibe to that lifestyle myself and my religion rejects it as sin. but those are the rules I choose to follow, not the rules i force on other people, whether they proscribe to my faith or not. I proscribe to the lifestyle of protecting children. thats about it.
Homosexuals are attracted to ADULTS of the same gender, not children. To equate pedophiles and homosexuals is wrong. I'm sure you would not find a young girl to be an acceptable substitution (in terms of dating/having sexual relations with) for a grown woman-it is the same way for gay men: young boys are not an acceptable substitute.
There are no homosexual pedophiles? Proof, please.
pedophiles are attracted to children, not adults, its all about the age of the victim and having power over them. homosexuals are attracted to adults.
and if you look it up - 95% of pedophiles do identify themselves as heterosexuals (including pedophiles who molested young boys).
anything else ?
NC, no one is saying there are no homosexual pedophiles. What they are saying is the MAJORITY of pedophiles are heterosexual...about 95 percent. You want proof? Do a 30 second Google search and educate yourself.
As far as I know, gay is a euphemism for homosexual. Pedophilia is a terrible act on innocent children and should be fought against on all fronts. The problem that the catholic church, boy scouts and other institutions that have had this type of behavior happen in their ranks, try to cover up to "save" the welfare of the institution. Which is the wrong thing to do. When I was a boy scout I found it to be fun and formative. There were no fundraising of any kind. Parents paid dues and the cost of the gear. To the day I believe the boy scouts is a great organization. I have a suggestion for the gay activists, why don't they create their own organization. I'm sure it would be a great success and ultimately compete with the BSA.
I have no use for the Boy Scouts, but the release of the information serves no purpose.
Making the public aware of sex crimes against children has no purpose?
The public is already aware, and that it not what the information being released is about.
No it definitely serves a purpose. If the banning of gay members wasnt enough for you to pull your kid from the BSA, now you definitely need to take action. How is a warning completely useless? Would you prefer people kept enrolling their kids with no knowledge of whats going on?
Contrary to the author's opinion, I have never considered the Boy Scouts "one of America's most trusted institutions".
True Mary, even in the 90s, we decided to not put our son in Boy Scouts. Just wasn't worth the risk, and he got plenty of outdoors time at a grandparent's farm. I do feel bad for city kids - but it still isn't worth the risk.
Not worth the risk? According to the numbers I've seen there's about a 0.001% chance of your child coming in contact with one of these sick people who abuse the system (scouting specifically).
People make knee-jerk reactions to these things without actually looking at them closely.
People get shot in public everyday. Does this mean we should never leave our house? because the risk is too high?
I think the risk vs benefit ratio is still very much in favor of scouting. And the benefits are many.
One last thing, I agree these cover ups that happened in the 80's or so were very wrong. There's no two ways about it. But currently there are a lot of checks in place to avoid these sick individuals. A couple of years or so ago I did some work with scouting and went through mandatory training and education (a lot of which addressed recognizing and reporting this behavior) before I was able to participate in any scouting activity. Things are much better and open now then they were in the 70's and 80's.
Abuse the "system"? We aren't talking about abusing the "system". We are talking about sexual abuse of children.
YES DOCJT
Scouting is a "system" and sick people abuse that system to get close to children.
One would hope that an organization like the Boy Scouts (which I was a member of while growing up)could figure out a better way to uncover pedophile scout leaders in the future than this story suggests they sometimes failed to do in the past.However, as bad as this story sounds, the numbers mentioned suggest that incidents of molestation were pretty rare (about 1,200 leaders found guilty of molestation out of one million total leaders during the time period discussed). These cases are certainly nothing like the Boy Scouts or Cub Scouts as I knew them .I experienced what I'd say most Scouts did (an organization run pretty much by the book). We learned about the outdoors, camping,survival skills and the like.I certainly never heard of any incidents remotely like this.And, had a scout leader tried to hit on a boy in our scout troop I feel sure that they'd have been outed in about two seconds.
If they uncovered 1, it is one too many.
The Boy Scouts have already taken the most significant step : ban the boy lovers . It is no surprise that homosexual men and their preference for very young men. There is a mild distinction between a boy pedophile and homosexual. If the boys that were raped were pubescent, let the predators be defined as homosexual.
Ever notice how often conservative christian organizations have some disgusting skeletons in the closet related to some of the very things they're protesting against? Members of the FRC hiring men to "lift their luggage", "pro-family" GOPers going off to "hike the Applician trail", child-rape by the RCC, the list continues.
We should call it the "Lazarus" effect...
a sexual deviant is a sexual deviant is a sexual deviant whether they identify themselves as hetero or homosexual is not the point.
I dont know if pedophilia is a crime of oppurtunity but it seems like it. More people have to talk openly to their kids of all ages telling them what to look and listen for, what to report and who to go to. this way not only is their child more protected but a child they witness being abused may get help.
If parents act like it doesnt exist, then in the unfortunate instance when it actually happens our children wont know what to do or who to talk to.
another point is BSA need to worry less about protecting thier "thought to be good name", and protect the children put into their care. Their current policy is to report suspicious activity to law enforcement, but I ( having no knowledge of their workings) am a bit skeptical as to if they actually do it. Because backwards logic tells corporations the more hush hush a subject is kept, the more it is kept out of the headlines the more they can protect their namesake. instead they should be bold, open and on the forefront of prosecuting people who abuse their rank within their organization.
if the public knows you will go through hell and burn it to the ground in an effort to protect children to the detriment of your "good name", people would be on their side.
thats just my disjointed oppinion.
And if someone was thinking about abusing children, perhaps if they knew that the organization through which they work with kids reports abuses (and doesn't just cover them up), that person would possibly think twice. Organizations like BSA don't seem to realize that it looks much better to the public to say "we caught this guy, turned him into the authorities, and now he cannot harm any more children" rather than "well, we took care of it internally, and although he never served any jail time or made it on the sex offender registry, we're sure it won't be a problem in the future."
First the Vatican with priests... and now one of our most cherished organizations is under the microscope. SHAME! But glad this is all coming out, for the good of our children.
ANY organization that works with children should have and ought to know they are magnets for pedophiles who see this as easy pickings. ANY organization dealing with kids should expect this and have in place mechanisms to protect the kids above all else. Guess what, they don't. The leaders and others live with this myth of the "Johnny Do Gooder" mentality not believing or being so ignorant as to be blind to the facts that anyone with any insight could see a mile off.
In some cases, the Boy Scouts helped the accused "cover their tracks," the paper said.
Where are we on those RICO charges?
I know this will fall on deaf ears because the tone of these comments are bent on finding the fault in human nature and not the good. But I was a boy scout, earned my eagle scout. Continued after my eagle and helped my local troop. Now that I'm an adult I've also helped in cub scouts (younger scouting program) for several years. In all my years I have seen nothing by selfless adults giving up their vacation time, money, and talents to put up with annoying kids like I was. Hoping, against odds, that their efforts would help the youth see the value in rules, skills, leadership, and discipline. Honoring the flag, the country, and one's self.
Regardless of what these disgusting people have done by preying on children, I will never relinquish my gratitude to the hundreds of volunteer leaders that helped me become a better person. I hope the program survives because I want my boy to be a boy scout some day too.
I was Boy Scout as well and my time in the Scouts was some of the best in my life, I wouldn't change a thing.
That doesn't negate the abuse.
Where do I say I want to negate the abuse?
I can understand how one person could seem like allot if you belong to a group that represents less than 3 percent of the population but...if we run the numbers if 1 in 96 of pedophile attacks are homos then the ratio would be twice as many homos are pedophiles than heteros by population. I love math...facts are facts. But we are not talking as rational, reasonable people are we, I forgot. Homos just need to face the FACT they are the anomaly in society not the norm or the majority. And no, I am not the least bet afraid of them. The are obviously very afraid of a hetero society or they could learn to respect us, which they do not and that makes THEM bigots.
to pubic,
made up numbers and made up facts
Public: No one said you were afraid of "them." YOU were the one who brought up your fear and your bigotry.
OH WHAT A GIVEAWAY!
You don't have to HATE the person to HATE the behavior of Homosexuals and the way the Homosexuals are bringing down this country brick by brick. I have heard "what happens in the privacy of your own bedroom.." so many times, but The Homosexual Political party is hard at work daily, political rallies, endless whip and leather parades. This is WAAAAY beyond any bedroom and is a VERY active political party.
I have seen the destruction of my employers as a result of the internal strife homosexuals can cause. I have hired thousands for a living and will no doubt hire many thousands more. When some big hairy guy shows up for a job interview in a pink dress, the ONLY option is to recommend pshychiatric help. He will never get even an interview with my employer and Title VII does not preclude my sending him down the road due to his ridiculously stupid behavior.
In the first place, you, like all "good" bigots, confuse behavior with orientation. Second, neither you nor any other bigot has proven that "homosexuals are bringing down this country brick by brick" -- in fact, most of us believe it is ignorant bigotry like yours that is doing so.
@ErinNJ
Confusing behavior with orientation??? Sexual BEHAVIOR that is ORIENTED toward same sex children is HOMOSEXUAL. There's no way around it.
An individual who orients his/her sexual behavior toward a child of the same sex IS homosexual.
You can't deny it!! Sorry!!
What is the difference between homosexual orientation and homosexual behavior? THEY ARE BOTH HOMOSEXUAL!!!
No, AZ275, a person who engages in sexual behavior with children is a pedophile. Their sexual orientation is not the issue. Their criminal activity is.
If you don't know the difference between orientation and behavior, you probably should stop commenting. You look like an idiot.
why in the world should homosexuals have to respect you? you have no respect for them.
i have always suspected the men who hate homosexuals probably have that tendantcy to be homosexual. that's why you vary rarely hear a women make jokes about someones choice.
AZ275,
You know so little. 99% of all pedophile are heterosexuals that are married and have kids. Homosexuals are not attracted to children you moron they are attracted to same age, same sex. If ignorance is bliss you must be VERY happy.
@DOCJT
I know the difference between orientation and behavior....doesn't change the fact that either can be homosexual or heterosexual or bisexual and it doesn't matter if it's children or adults. Homosexual behavior is what it is whether it's an adult or a child. Heterosexual behavior is what it is whether it's an adult or a child, same for bisexual behavior.
And in regards to looking like an idiot....the thing that's idiotic is trying to defend something from what it truely is even when you know you're wrong. Homosexuals claiming that a man abusing male children is not a homosexual act have no argument and no ground to stand on. There's no age cut off for homosexuality (or heterosexuality for that matter).
Even if a "straight" person engages in a homosexual act it doesn't change the fact that it is homosexual act. A person who engages in homosexual behavior has to have homosexual orientation. The two go hand in hand. The orientation leads to the behavior. You can't engage in homosexual acts and claim that you don't have homosexual orientation or homosexual behavior. It makes no sense what so ever.
So, before you go throwing out insults (which most of the time indicates that you're wrong) you should think through your arguments to avoid actually looking like an idiot.
Homosexuals think they can just redefine things to fit their lifestyle and it's very annoying and looks bad. You can't redefine marriage and you can't redefine homosexuality. It IS what it IS. period.
WRONG. Pedophiles/child molesters will usually target minors of either sex, because they are attracted to the age, not the gender. That is why approximately 90% of all pedophiles/child molesters are married men who identify as heterosexual in their adult relationships.
You can't redefine idiocy; it is what is is. Period.
And you fit the description. Period.
this is not surprising men couver for men no matter what the crime is.
pork - I guess that makes you a member of the Bull Sheesh Party, huh?
I was in the Scouts in the 60's and didn't see any of this. It was a good organization back then before it became the Mormon Scouts of America. Now, not so much.
HappyHeathen is neither happy nor a true heathen. I was in the Boy Scouts as a Scout in the 70's when the group was embraced by many organiztions before so many cowardly bowed out. The fact LDS groups are more dominant is because we have worked hard to uphold the ideals of Scouting such as "morally straight". Happyheathen is a prime example of the cowards who have left Scouting while whining it is 'just too hard". I have been a happy Scout leader for years and fought the fight cowards like happyheathen have turned their back on.
BTW, Obama has openly denounced Boy Scouting ideals. He also told the media he quit smoking, yet he is regularly seen sucking down cigarettes. No moral fiber.
Mormons became a part of scouting as early as the 1930's. By the 60's (when you were involved) they were just as involved in scouting as they are now.
Besides, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is not the only church involved in scouting. In addition, religious institutions all together only make up 55% of scouting support. The other 45% is from other institutions. Don't assume that all (or even any) of these pedophile issues are from religious people.
Don't try to make this a religious issue. This is a problem of individuals who are sickening people preying on children, who by the way are a slim minority of the over all scouting leadership population.
Scouting does more for this country's future than it's given credit for. Don't let the actions of a small number of sick people overshadow that. Just to be clear, I'm defending scouting and it's mission. Not the sick people doing these horrible things.
It IS a religious issue! It's a religious organization that KNEW and FAILED to report pedophiles in their midst.
The Boy Scouts are not actually a "religious" institution. It was created then afterwards religious intstitutions began to support it because the scouting mission was in line with that of religious institutions.
If the Boy Scouts as an institution failed to report issues of abuse you can't throw that on the churches that support the boy scouts any more than you can on the non-religious institutions that support scouting.
Like I said in a previous comment. Almost half of the support for boy scouts comes from non-religious institutions. This is no more a religious issue than it is an issue for those non-religious institutions that also support scouting.
AZ275...you are technically correct, but unfortunately as with most cases Religious zealots have infiltrated and perverted the ranks of the Boy Scouts. Having been a Boy Scout many years ago, I saw it happen. As a child I did not understand what was going on but looking back I can see it now. The religious high rollers taking leadership positions within the ranks and making changes to fit their ideal what the Boy Scouts should be.
Leave it to religion to screw something up. In fact the two most powerful screw ups in the world are government and religion.
@jim-256239
So there are "religious high rollers taking leadership positions" in the boy scouts? I'd like to know where you came up with that little tid bit. Last I checked the employees of the boy scouts barely make a living off the scout salaries. I know this b/c a family member of mine does work for the scouts.
Also, the boy scouts had theirs ideals established before churches started to support them. There are no "religious high rollers" calling shots and changing ideals for the boy scouts.
The boy scout ideals of being generally religious (by this I mean not specific to one religion) were established from the get go. That's the reason churches began to support the scouts. Churches did not establish the scouts...the scouts were established then churches started to support.
"Gays are not allowed, but pedophiles are protected" sounds like it's based on church values to me.
What exactly amounts to child abuse? Nobody is yet to define it. And where is the definite proof that any of these allegations are true? There are too many lives being ruined because somebody had an ax to grind. There seems to be a systematic effort to destroy all of the existing social institutions. The whole business smells bad.
This is exactly the type of statement someone with a "cover-up" mentality would say. You would be hard pressed to find ANY organization without a rotten apple in the barrel. Doesn't condemn the organization, just the rotten ones. "Nobody is yet to define it". No, the laws of most states spell it out clearly.
Don't huff and puff and try and deflect the light of day from YOUR organization, get in there and find out the truth, no matter how uncomfortable. It isn't a conspiracy, it is a trend to investigate reports of wrongdoing. IF your organization is strong and worthwhile, neither the investigation nor the finding of a pedophile (or any other criminal and criminal behavior) will rock it.
"What exactly amounts to child abuse?" Really? If you are too dim to figure it out, most people are not. Ask someone who has gone to school to define it for you.
A careful study of pedophilia will reveal that 95% of pedophiles are heterosexual men. Think, Jerry Sandusky. In many instances, those heterosexual men were violated as young boys and they are acting out subliminal anger. This is a terribly complex psychology to deal with and to comprehend. The BSA is doing the same thing the Roman Catholic Church has done: ban the gays! Yet, roughly 50% of the RC clergy are homosexual. While there may be very few in the BSA who are homosexual, it is time to lift the barrier against gays. Sexual orientation is so very complicated As a Priest I continue to be upset and outraged over the abuse of Holy Scripture to cherry pick those passages that apply to male homosexuality, most of which appear in Hebrew Bible, without understanding or wanting to understand the context in which those passages were written 2,000+ years ago. Recent events at Penn State, the Roman Church and now the BSA indicate how out of touch people are; or, how willing they are to turn away entirely.
If you are having sex with pre-teen, or teenage boys you are NOT heterosexual, if your partner has a penis clearly you are gay (easy enough concept right?) even if you are in a sham marriage to cover it.
Mike.D34 --
If you are having sex with pre-teen or teenage boys you are NOT heterosexual - correct, you are a pedophile, they are attracted to age, NOT gender, look it up and educate yourself. and the fact is true, that 95% of pedophiles do actually identify themselves as heterosexuals.. NOT homosexuals
if your partner has a penis clearly you are gay - correct if you are a male and your partner is a male, incorrect if you are a female and your partner is a male
The word "pedophile" points to behavior, not to sexual orientation. Mike is correct. If you are having sex with boys you are gay. "95% of pedophiles identify themselves as heterosexuals" Who gives a rats ass what pedophiles say? They are accomplished liars living in a fantasy world. 95% of them also deny doing anything wrong, even if they are caught in the act.
If you didn't understand Mike's comments, is it because you are a moron, or is it because you are living in a fantasy world?
really Steve ? ... wow.. so i guess WebMD (among other sites) have been telling the world the wrong statement then, right ?
A pedophile is a person who has a sustained sexual orientation toward children, generally aged 13 or younger, Blanchard says.
Not all pedophiles are child molesters (or vice versa). "Child molesters are defined by their acts; pedophiles are defined by their desires," Blanchard says. "Some pedophiles refrain from sexually approaching any child for their entire lives." But it's not clear how common that is.
but according to Steve, obviously they are incorrect, Steve says "pedophile" points to behavior...
obviously, as i have stated Steve, they are attracted to age and not gender
So, if YOU didn't understand my comments, is it because YOU are a moron or are YOU living in a fantasy world ?
and the fact also remains, 95% of pedophiles identify themselves as heterosexuals and not homosexuals, so you can't say all pedophiles are gay even if they are having sex with the same gender, because just as proven, they are attracted to AGE and NOT GENDER...
so, which is it Steve ? Moron or Fantasy world for you ?