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Bloomington Minn. police
Booking photo of Andrew Engeldinger in 1997.
Updated at 4:45 p.m. ET: The man who shot and killed four others then himself at a sign-making business in Minneapolis on Thursday has been identified as Andrew J. Engeldinger, 36, an employee who had lost his job earlier in the day, the StarTribune reported Friday.
"It was a case he was terminated that day, he did come back about 4:25 to that location, parked his car and walked in the loading dock area and immediately started shooting people at that location," Minneapolis Police Chief Tim Dolan said Friday afternoon.
Dolan said Engeldinger was found dead in the basement of Accent Signage Systems with a 9 mm semi-automatic handgun and a single bullet casing, KARE television reported.
Asked if Engeldinger chose his victims, the chief said: "It's clear he did walk by some people, he did walk by people to get to certain other members of the business."
Dolan said Engeldinger's weapon was a Glock 9 mm, a semi-automatic handgun. He said police found packaging for 10,000 rounds of ammunition during a search of Engeldinger's home.
Barry Lawrence, a former employee who told the Tribune that he had trained Engeldinger as an engraver in 1998 or 1999, described him as "real intelligent, caught on fast."
"He seemed conscientious," said Lawrence. "He was conscious about saving money. He was always worried about his 401(k) plan. When the stock market went down, he was concerned about losing money. I said, 'Just forget about it, Andy, don't even look at if it upsets you.'"
Engeldinger's parents on Friday released a statement saying that Andrew struggled with mental illness for years and had lost contact with the family, KARE reported. "This is not an excuse for his actions, but sadly, may be a partial explanation," said the statement read by Carolyn and Chuck Engeldinger. They also expressed condolences to the families of those killed and wounded.
Updated at 8:02 a.m. ET: A gunman killed four people inside a Minneapolis sign-making business before turning the weapon on himself, authorities said early Friday.
The victims' bodies were found shortly after officers arrived at Accent Signage Systems Inc., located in a residential area in the city's north side, after receiving a 911 call Thursday afternoon, according to police spokesman Sgt. Stephen McCarty.
"When officers arrived and entered the business to assist with the evacuation of employees, give aid to the victims and to search for the suspect, they found four victims dead from apparent gunshot wounds," McCarty said in a statement.
Four other people were wounded, including three critically. McCarty declined to identify those killed or wounded, and said he did not know what connection the shooter may have had with the business, if any.
'Kind of odd'
Minneapolis Police Deputy Chief Kris Arneson said officers never fired at the shooter. She didn't release other details — including the shooter's possible motive.
Neighbor Heather Buckingham, who told NBC station KARE 11 that she formerly worked for Accent Signage Systems as a receptionist, said the gunman was an employee of the firm who had been laid off on Thursday.
As police search for a motive in a deadly Minnesota workplace shooting, witnesses say the gunman may have been fired from his job at a small signage company earlier in the day. Four people and the gunman were killed, and four others were injured. NBC's Kevin Tibbles reports.
Police continue to investigate a shooting in Minneapolis that left "several" dead and four injured. KARE's Jay Olstad reports.
"The one that was doing the shooting was quiet, kept to himself," she told KARE 11. "Kind of odd."
Someone from inside the building called 911 around 4:30 p.m. to report the shootings, police said. The first officers on the scene quickly began evacuating people from the business and closed off several blocks.
More news from NBC station KARE 11
Marques Jones, 18, of Minneapolis, said he was outside a building down the street having his high school senior pictures taken when he and his photographer heard gunfire that sounded close.
"We heard about four to five gunshots," Jones said. "We were shocked at what happened and we just looked at each other. We all just took off running to our vehicles."
Craig Lassig / AP
A police officer stands at the entrance of Accent Signage Systems in Minneapolis on Thursday.
'Watched his boss get shot'
Local resident Barb Gasterland told KARE 11 that an employee of Accent Signage Systems came to her home looking for help.
"He was visibly fearful," she said. "He came running up the side of the road and asked for the phone because he was running from the shooter."
Gasterland said the man described the details of the shooting while hiding in her house for about 30 minutes.
"He had watched his boss get shot and his best friend and two other people," she told KARE 11. "He could tell one person was dead at least."
Minneapolis Mayor R. T. Rybak described the incident as a "horrible tragedy."
John Autey / St. Paul Pioneer Press via AP
Officers with the Minnesota State Patrol man the Penn Avenue bridge over Bassett's Creek near the scene of a shooting in Minneapolis on Thursday.
In a statement, Governor Mark Dayton said: "I deplore this senseless violence. There is no place for it anywhere in Minnesota. I extend my deepest condolences to the families and friends of the innocent people killed or wounded."
Local business publication Finance & Commerce reported that U.S. Under Secretary of Commerce Francisco Sanchez visited Accent Signage Systems in August in a trip focused on exporting, and praised the company for its innovation.
Accent Signage Systems Incorporated specializes in interior signs that help the visually impaired.
The company holds a patent for technology that imprints Braille on things like hotel room numbers and restroom signs.
Companies in 38 countries use Accent's technology.
According to the company's Facebook page, Accent started as a part-time engraving business out of company president Reuven Rahamim's basement in 1984. It has grown significantly.
Accent now employs about 30 people and earns $5 to $10 million each year.
The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.
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Leave a Comment:
It's a sad day when you can't go to work without something like this happening and proof it can happen anywhere and is unfortunately occuring more and more. My heart goes out to the families of these poor, innocent victims. It's a shame that the shooter could not find the help that he obviously needed instead of venting his frustration this way. God bless the victims and their families.
At least he had the NRA out there protecting his right to protect himself.
Clearly, this could not have happened if it were easier to get guns. </sarcasm>
People with guns kill more people than people without guns.
How many times do we got to say it? "It ain't the guns, it's the man behind the gun!"
If you all want to ban something, "Ban Liquor!"
It does more damage than people realize, then again it's those people who used it!
Man has a "very wicked heart(Jeremiah 17:9)."
my condolences to the families.
There are evil humans in ALL 50 states - - to bad the company didn't have armed security to take this slug out early - - better yet he should have offed himself in his own backyard!!!
Giancomo - focus on the article if you are literate enough to do so. This isn't about the NRA, it's about an individual that was apparently troubeled, most likely about losing his job in an economy that hasn't gotten better for ANYONE. Getting fired isn't like a Donald Trump comedy for most people. Some have families and financial obigations that will be shattered when they lose their job, and contrary to the sympathy that always ensures secondary to these incidents, employers and the work place in general often play a role in the degree of anger and or frustration the employees feel. There is more to this story, so sit back, pour yourself another cup of kool aid or light up some more funny weed, until it is revealed.
This guy is a job creator.
jerry.. have you ever heard of America's period in time called prohibition?
wire 557,
trolling much? WTH does this story have to do with politics? Get a life.
Would you post the same crap if this happened to your family? People are dead for no reason.
Where's all the anit-gun nutz at?????????????? .....oh opps my bad there yous all are..............Still trying to turn the US in to UK.
another laid off worker going violent; he was probability laid off, because he was a problem causer at the work place, mentally unstable, being laid off pushed him over the edge.
According to the NRA and other associated gun nut advocates, we should all be walking around packing "heat".. just in case of something like this...
Maybe you should follow your own advice. As you yourself said, there's more to this story, like the fact that this would not have happened if he hadn't been able to buy a gun in the first place. But it's kind of weird...point that simple fact out and suddenly you are a libtard or something like that.
This has nothing to do with gun control. If people want to kill they are going to find a way. There are other ways to obtain a firearm besides gun shows, or gun shops. Also, gun related death is sad for sure, but just a blip on the radar when it comes to the grand scheme.
According to FBI statistics, the highest per capita rates of gun-related homicides were in D.C. (35.4/100,000), and this is in a place with very strict gun laws.
Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world, with somewhere between 1.2 to 3 million guns in the private residences of its approximately 8 million citizens. In 2006 there were 34 recorded murders or attempted murders with a gun, representing a firearm homicide rate of 1 per 250,000. (source: #cite_note-Small_Arms_Survey_2007-0)
Number of deaths for leading causes of death:
Draw your own conclussion, but most urban areas like DC, Chicago with very strict gun laws have the most gun related crime.
Strange that my post below got the most votes and still got collapsed
more guns more violence..
of everyone carries a gun there will be even more gun violence as many people react to their emotions in the moment instead of not having quick access to a gun
And to all the tea party far right wing morons.. there are still right wing whack jobs even in the blue states..
My post was probably collapsed because it generated a genuine debate "Hey Johnny. I just wanted to say, that I was quite impressed by your posting. Honestly, I think it was the very first time I had ever seen a liberal post a sound and logical argument. Usually it is just hatred and nonsense. Such a posting deserves a sound and logical answer."
And of course the last thing that the NRA wants to see is a rational debate on guns.
Dong Work, more guns in the hands of idiots isn't what we need. We need proper education and more contact then just violent movies and video games. I grew up in the south, but I was born on Long island. A vast differnece in culture and I grew up to respect weapons of all kinds. Kids today are thrown under the bus when it comes to parents who just write off guns, because they don't allow them in their house. It is part of our culture and shouldn't be tossed aside, because people don't agree. You wouldn't let a kid get behing the wheel of a car without proper training, so why should kids grow up without proper knowledge of firearms? I know they aren't for everyone, but people should at least have to take a class as to learn respect and a healthy fear of something that can be used as a tool, or a deadly weapon.
"Neighbor Heather Buckingham, who told NBC station KARE 11 that she formerly worked for Accent Signage Systems as a receptionist, said the gunman was an employee of the firm who had been laid off on Thursday."
SIGH...Sign of the times...
jp good post. couldn't agree more.
10,000, Ten thousand, 10K rounds of ammunition! Was he in the process of planning something bigger even before he was laid off? Assult rifles for civilians need to be banned (yes, I know this douche didn't have an assult rifle), being able to purchase and obtain this much ammunition by one person is ridiculous and there should be some sort of tracking in place based not just by name but by delivery address and method of payment (large amounts of ammo being purchased with same credit card but beinging delivered to multiple addresses under different names). Just because "people are going to kill people regardless," doesn't mean we should provide them with the means to do so. For those of you who are more guns all the way around, what are you going to say/do/feel when a loved one is gunned down because he/she accidently bumped into a woman who is PMSing or some jerk in McDonalds who got the wrong order and starts shooting because he was already having a bad day. Are you going to just say, "Oh well, that's life." I'm not against people owning guns. I'm opposed to ignorance, lack of education and lack of controol.
Too many under-50 white American men can't take rejection, either a job firing or divorce, despite that at one time many, if not most, people have been laid off/fired/downsized, and 1/2 of all Americans have been divorced. Always the same old story of some entitled nutbag guy going into work to shoot up the place and kill co-workers/boss, or grab a gun and go into the ex-wife's place of work and shoot her. Seriously, women don't do this kind of thing ... and a lot more of them actually have reasons to.
If only guns were made illegal. If only Obama and/or Romney helped Congress and Senate pass a law to outlaw guns.
No crazy people should be legal either. Make crazy people illegal.
Evening Oxalic..Making guns illegal is not really the answer, it is the ferals hanging on to them that is the problem...after our mass shooting here in Australia the gun laws were drastically upgraded. You can still get guns here (they are not banned as many Americans think) so long as you qualify and pass the tests. Then the cops will roll up and come into your house to make sure the gun safe is bolted to the floor, made of steel and the keys are in a safe place. People will simply turn to other weapons if guns are banned. We have a lot of stabbings here now, more than we use to. People can be perfectly sane no sign of any mental problems as was the case with our mass murder, and he simply went on a rampage. Women, men, children everyone and anyone....we were shocked to the core. Has never happened here to this extent, and has never happened since. Never want it to either. Is it the tough laws, I think it certainly helps. But at the end of the day if someone is determined to murder people, then it really makes no difference if they are sane or insane. So very sorry for the people and their families and friends, blessings to all from accross the Pacific.
Donald Trump may want to rethink his policy of firing people on TV.
outlaw guns and the only ones with guns will be outlaws
You honestly believe that banning guns will fix the woes of the good ole USA? you are sadly mistaken. Hitler banned guns in Germany before WWII.
Banning guns would mean dismantling the US Constitution.
Banning guns would mean less freedoms for us law abiding citizens.
If you want to give up your rights try living in a different country for a while , then and only then will you see that we really do have it better here
Erase.
The NRA could sell a gun to Helen Keller and people here would justify it.
Good Evening to you Shona
You are spot on "when guns are not available, other weapons (i.e. knives) will become more the weapon of choice". I do like the way that weapons are allowed to be held by private citizens in Australia - a safe and education by passing a test.
jack from Jax, when was the last time you heard of a serial stabber? The fact is, it doesn't matter how educated you are in passing a test to own a gun. Most shootings are crimes of passion and happen spur of the moment (i.e. a husband walking in on his wife cheating on him). All it takes is one moment and that typically sane person can snap.
If guns were illegal, 9/11 would have never happened.
Oh, right. NO guns were used there and thousands of US citizens were killed. If someone wants to go on a mass killing, they're going to do it. Frankly. guns aren't even the most efficient. If someone really cared about maximum damage they would make a bomb or something. Or you know, fly a plane into a building. Banning guns isn't the answer. You can strangle someone with your bare hands, should hands be banned?
Does the name "Jack the Ripper" mean anything to you? Check stabbing deaths in Great Britain.
You can't stab a person 75 yards away.
You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers.
If you want to piss on the second amendment and run your mouth using the first amendment....then do not cry when your actions have consequences.
Scott,
Really? And how many countries have you lived in? The USA is listed #11 on most firearm related death-rates, right after Mexico. Not a good track record to be proud off.
I don't care of 4 guns but I also don't believe in making them illegal.. But there sure doesn't need to be as many as we do have pumped into society, and there is NO reason for assault rifles to be in the hands of citizens
I also believe in waiting periods and background searches..
"Proof that it can happen anywhere"? - No, only the the USA.
I wish gun-lovers would think through their obsession with guns and see the logical conclusion.
There seem to be two main arguments for American gun-ownership.
1) When you suffer an armed home invasion or a Columbine type attack, the cops are minutes not seconds away and
2) Only an armed populace can resist a government that wishes to impose a dictatorship.
The trouble with the first is that if you make it possible to arm the mad, the bad and the sad and flood the country with guns, you make it almost certain that any intruder in your home or school will be armed, therefore fulfilling the condition that made you want to be armed in the first place.
On the second, it is clear from Afghanistan, Libya and Syria that even a well-armed populace cannot stand up to the military without extra help. To be effective the armed populace (read right-wing militia) needs either to have:
(a) help from the military – this is called a coup in most countries
(b) someone outside to impose a no-fly zone – any suggestions for foreign governments who might be prepared to try to do this in the US?
(c) recourse to more than even the powerful weapons allowed in the US – just trot along to your local Walmart and pick up your suicide belt and SAM missile.
Who can doubt American exceptionalism?
Any country where a substantial part of the population:
a) denies evolution
b) doubts global warming
c) believes that mass gun ownership brings increased safety
d) maintains that talk of "second amendment remedies" is compatible with democracy
is exceptionally STUPID.
Excellent post. I agree. Most gun nuts have never travelled abroad and have no idea what its like to walk down a street in Europe at night and not have to worry about someone pulling a gun on you for no reason. Only in the USA...
Despite sam adams' accolades, I disagree with the characterization of your post as "excellent." Your opening statement that gun violence in the workplace is unique to the USA is demonstrably false.
I wish gun-lovers would think through their obsession with guns and see the logical conclusion.
The statistics for police stopping a home invasion or a Coulmbine-type attack in progress speak for themselves.
I would love to see your examples of unarmed populations that have resisted or overthrown a dictatorship.
I am a gun owner who has never had a firearm stolen and never shot anyone in the USA. I claim the responsibility for guns ending up in the hands of "the mad, the bad and the sad" lies much more in the hands of those who are tasked with enforcing the laws against doing so.
In Syria, the rebels continue to fight a government that is being armed and supported by Russia, via Iran. In Afghanistan a population of 35 million (one tenth of the United States) continues after 11 years to resist our best efforts to subdue them.
Without arguing the merits of the examples you provide, the equivalent statement that "Anyone who disagrees with me is exceptionally stupid" is a logical fallacy (abusive Argumentum ad Hominem), which is itself exceptionally stupid.
Thanks Sam.
I regularly post this commonsense view on gun laws but have yet to see it refuted. Meanwhile I wait for the first person to comment (as someone always does)
"compatible with a democracy???? Last I heard, the US was a REPUBLIC - DUH!!!"
Rather makes my point
Johnny - wish I could +1 your comment more than once. Excellent post.
@Denver
My point is that the free access to guns in the US ensures that both criminals and the unhinged resort first to gun violence, which gives an impossible task to the police -again self-fulfilling. The notion that guns protect you from a dictatorship is profoundly undemocratic and a dangerous delusion. It encourages citizens to turn to the bullet rather than the ballot.
As for my last 4 points, I agree that it is rather aggressive but outside the US there would be little objection to calling each of them an objective indication of stupidity.
Johnny Marre,
I understood your point the first time. I just disagree. But since you have condensed your argument, I will condense my reply:
This point has two parts. The first part, "criminals and the unhinged resort to gun violence," I do not disagree with. The second part, "which gives an impossible task to the police," is arguable. If the police can enforce the law, but do not do so, then they are the ones who are culpable. If they can not enforce the law, then citizens are justified in arming themselves.
The founding fathers, who threw off the rule of King George III (a de facto dictator), would disagree with you, as do I.
Denver. I wonder whether your founding fathers (not mine - I'm from George's country) would still advocate a heavily armed populace. In the first place then you were throwing off an unelected ruler - you had no option but to use force - and in the second there is no comparison between the arms used then and the arms available now. In a functioning democracy such as the US there will be disagreement on whether a government is good or bad (or even constitutional or unconstitutional). What you are advocating is the right to decide that by force of arms - a recipe for civil war in fact. Didn't you have one of those already and didn't it teach you anything?
I agree with what you said, but you can't take away guns. Look at what has happened with drugs, (Cocaine, Mary Jane, etc. ) Those are illegal right? But we still have them... We would essentially be giving money to the underground trade and gangs as well. I think there should be a stricter tracking system for guns, but there's only so much you can do to increase safety. Its a hard question to answer. And Guns don't kill people... Crazy/Angry people with guns kill people. (Although the only purpose for guns is to kill, despite their recreational use...)
Sad how people fail to recognize that freedom comes with responsibilities. The responsibilities that come with the freedom of gun ownership are washed aside as unnecessary by the NRA zealots to ensure they keep their freedom, while innocent people just keep dying. And people just keep defending it. If that doesn't provide a perfect example of human stupidity, I just don't know what does...
Well, I for one am thank-ful for our Right to bear Arms. Not everyone in this country agree's with me, but that's their opinion. There are alot of laws that could be implemented to make our country safer. I do not believe guns should be able to be purchased from citizens without making it a law that the guns should legally HAVE TO BE TRANSFERED and Documented by a FFL dealer. (Make it a felony for someone to sell a gun from a place like Craigslist, Ebay, or any other place WITHOUT the SELLER being responsible for having the gun legally transfer to the buyer's name) FELONY. I am never going to sell anyone a gun of mine without having it transfered by a FFL dealer. I enjoy my right to own guns, I also do my part to ensure that MY FIREARMS don't fall into the hands of the wrong people. Common sense is required.
Good question. I would love to know the answer, but it is not to be.
Oppressive government deserves to be thrown off, whether or not the oppressor was elected.
The capability of arms has (in my opinion) very little to do with the right to bear arms. I suspect that spear carriers would have made the same argument against people who had bows and arrows.
You are correct. Oppressive government can be foreign or domestic. The United States ended oppressive rule by a foreign government in the Revolutionary War, and ended slavery by force of arms in the Civil War.
"The responsibilities that come with the freedom of gun ownership are washed aside as unnecessary by the NRA zealots to ensure they keep their freedom,"
How do they wash aside responsibility? You don't give any specific examples..
Denver. Your post makes depressing reading for those who believe in democracy.
Can you tell me under what circumstances it is right to turn to "2nd Amendment Remedies" (which you clearly support)? Would another 4 years of an Obama administration merit it? Maybe not for you, but others might think differently? Where do you draw the line?
hey johnny, you are the ONE who is stupid! How could something evolve from NOTHING???
this "billion of years ago" is nothing but GARBAGE! were you there?? Did you see it happen??? I didn't think So!
jerry, something didn't evolve from nothing. Something evolved from something.
Now grab your books and skedaddle to the bus-stop or you'll be late for school.
So Johnny, anyone that disagrees with your myopic point of view is "exceptionally stupid"? What a bunch of Bull Sh_t. Read the 2nd Amendment and the writings of it's drafter, Thomas Jefferson, Sam Adams (the real one), aand it will become very clear that the intent of the amendment is to keep people like you from usurping the rights of the "majority" population of law-abiding CITIZENS to think and believe in a FREE country as they wish. I don't give a rats ass what you believe in but will fight to the death in order for you to believe in it. Too bad the "progressives" of today think exactly the opposite - like good little dialectical materialistic Marxists - but without 2% of the brains Marx had. Pathetic.
I ask again: Who decides when it is right to use force against an elected government? The answer, in the real world, is the military because without them such an insurrection is bound to fail.
It is sad that so many in the US believe in the legitimacy of a coup or are prepared to push their beliefs to the extent of starting a civil war rather than use the democratic process.
History makes depressing reading for those who believe in democracy. No true democracy has survived the realization by the voters that they could vote themselves access to the treasury. None .... ever.
Read the Declaration of Independence.
No.
Where I, personally, feel justified in armed insurrection is not germane to the subject of the right of the citizenry to bear arms.
You present a false dilemma. The right of a people to free themselves from oppression, by whatever means, is legitimate. The number of people in the United States who propose to overthrow the government by force of arms is so miniscule as to be laughable.
mach speed demon:
Where you there? did you see it happened??? I did not think so!!!
@Denver And the number of individuals in the US who feel that the 2nd Amendment gives them the right to try to assassinate the President? How many do you reckon there are of those?
The advocacy of 2nd Amendment Remedies, either carried out by "The People" or by any one individual, is a slippery slope to the tyranny that you wish to avoid.
Just for Jerry
The Common Sense Guide to the Evolution Debate
Step 1 Two types of theory.
The dictionary lists two meanings for the word "Theory": (1) "a hypothesis that has been confirmed or established by observation or experiment, and is propounded or accepted as accounting for the known facts" and (2) "Speculation or conjecture". To say that scientists are using the second meaning is dishonest or as stupid as saying that batsmen are using small furry nocturnal animals to hit balls around the base-ball diamond.
Step 2: The jury is not still out.
No major university teaches an alternative to evolution or that the world is 6000 years old. Even creationist Dr Michael Egnor admits that Darwinism "has been elevated to the status of the scientific theory that governs modern biology."
Step 3 Science thrives on controversy
Scientists do not just "say as other scientists say", as some creationists claim. That would lead to stasis. Ambitious scientists like to challenge the orthodoxy. Investors look to science for good profitable results, which come from good science, well applied.
Step 4 Common sense refutation of god denial
Creationists like to claim that scientists are motivated by a desire to deny god and therefore dismiss pro-creation evidence. However, the leaders of the major christian and jewish sects Pope, Archbishop of Canterbury, Chief Rabbi (and the majority of their followers) all have no problem in reconciling their faith in god and their acceptance of evolution. With supporters like that it is illogical to say that scientists are using evolution to deny god. And why should scientists only choose to deny the christian god? Should we assume that oceanographers are Poseidon-deniers or that meteorologists are trying to avoid their personal responsibility towards Thor? This is why intelligent christians and their leaders are so frustrated with Young Earth Creationists, who have defined god in a way that science can disprove his existence. For the same reason, militant atheists such as Dawkins love YECs, who are turning away folk from religion by the thousands.
Step 5 Where are the FAGS?
FAGS are "Foundations for Applied Genesis Science" or rather they aren't because they don't exist. Surely if it is true that the earth and all species were independently created just 6000 years ago it would be possible to make useful predictions based on this hypothesis. Such applied Genesis science, assuming it to be based on the truth, would surely generate valuable research providing benefits for instance in the areas of medicine, seismology and exploration for oil – benefits for mankind in general. Where are the FAGs and why are investors not falling over themselves to pour their money into them? Why do oil companies only hire "old earth" geologists to find their oil?
No, jerry, I wasn't there, and I didn't see it. I didn't see your birth, either, but evidence exists which proves it happened. (You still here? You're gonna miss that school bus...)
Johnny Marre, #3.21 is a great post.
@Johnny;
Hey Johnny. I just wanted to say, that I was quite impressed by your posting. Honestly, I think it was the very first time I had ever seen a liberal post a sound and logical argument. Usually it is just hatred and nonsense. Such a posting deserves a sound and logical answer.
First, I live in the country side. Cops aren't minutes away, they are a little over an hour away. Should a coyote attack my chickens or dogs, I'm not calling the cops. Point here to be made, not just one answer (ban guns) is an answer to all. It is a case by case.
Second point to first case. I know a few gang members and ex-cons. They are quite capable of getting guns, they have told me themselves. Guns are already out there and it is already illegal for crazies and cons but they can get them because they are already out there, the only way for a law abiding citizen to defend himself is to have the other side armed too. Otherwise, we are chickens in a den of coyotes.
Second point. Yes, the times have changed and so have the weapons. Yes, it is a very good point. Imagine however that instead the difference of a small number of armed people against a very large number of armed people against their government. A little different now than your point made. Makes it much harder to send in the airstrikes and/or send in the army when everyone else is also armed and learning how to be snipers against an oppresive government. We were out numbered and out armed in the American Revolution too, but the tactics eventually worked.
Yes, small point but it is a point. A large crowded of armed revolutionaries works better than a large crowd of unarmed revolutionaries. My stance is, the guns stay. When the government is 100% trustworthy, and the coyotes and bandits are no longer a problem, I'll reconsider my stance.
@J7 from Colorado: "When the government is 100% trustworthy". The desire for a 100% trustworthy government leads to people supporting fascist or communist dictatorships. Democracy is the process in which imperfect governments are adjusted to the needs and wishes of the people.
@Denver A theoretical right that cannot be effectively exercised in practice and which undermines democracy on one hand and increases the danger to the community from armed criminals and madmen on the other, needs to be reviewed.
Same old, Same old. But really sam adams what are you doing here in the wild wild USA, if Europe was so great? Anti-gun nutz are the same people who passes blame, never takes reponsibilities, and never solves any problems. Just look at their arguments, remove guns = safe. Yeah, and santa is real and he lives in the North pole too.
There are a few. Their numbers are so insignificant as to be irrelevant.
The Slippery Slope argument is fallacious in this case, considering the miniscule number of people who presently advocate violent overthrow of the government.
What you say is true. However, (1) the Second Amendment is not theoretical, (2) you have no proof that it cannot be effectively exercised in practice, while I have offered historical proof that it has been, (3) you have no proof that an armed citizenry undermines democracy, and (4) while I will concede the point that the community is more in danger from armed criminals, I return full circle to our first encounter, in which I claimed that the fact that there are armed criminals is more due to laws not being properly enforced rather than to law-abiding citizens exercising their Constitutional rights.
Johnny,
Sounds like you are the type that would prefer a life of tolerating a dictatorship rather than risking your life for freedom. I support your right to feel this way. However, I do not support your assumption that all others should feel as you do. There is no hard and fast rule for when is the right time for a society to overthrow a corrupt government. When enough of the populace are suffering to the point that they can no longer tolerate the actions of their government, things happen. At least in this country, we have a fighting chance against such a corrupt government.
Have you ever heard of India? Egypt? In both cases, the insurrection was successful because of the moral authority of the unarmed civilian population.
In general, armed populations have a 0% successful rate against a determined dictator. Can you name one case of an armed population that has successfully overthrown a dictator in the last century? Usually, what happens is that the army rolls in and the people waving the small arms find themselves gunned down by tanks.
Certainly, this is what would happen in the US. No matter how well-armed you are, you have 0 chance against a thermonuclear device, which would incinerate your weapon with as much ease as it would incinerate you.
Guns cannot stop dictators. We have seen this over and over. They can, however, be used to kill your neighbors and workplace colleagues.
No, you don't. There is no way a population with small arms can stand up to the mightiest military the world has ever seen. This is not theory. The capability of the US military was meant to take on the Soviet Union. They could roll over an armed population without even noticing.
An armed insurrection may theoretically succeed in a small country where the military is antiquated and the rebellion is armed by the US, for example such as in Libya. But there will be no US to arm the rebels if it is the US itself where it happens.
I realize that a lot of you have a religious belief that somehow the 2nd Amendment will protect you against a tyranny. It doesn't work that way.
The constant killings of Americans - 30 a day - are a direct cause of the freedom of gun ownership. That is the responsibility you refuse to accept, as if somehow the ability to buy weapons easily doesn't cause the violence. We get all sorts of platitudes instead such as "guns don't kill, people kill" and "If only the victim had been armed this tragedy would not have occurred." All of this is a direct abrogation of the responsibility involved.
Your right to bear arms is infringing on my right to attend school, work, a movie, or any public gathering without fear of being shot by a lunatic. I should be free to go anywhere I choose in this country without packing heat. Your right to bear arms is infringing on my right to life and liberty. My right to peace, which I think is what the founders of our country ultimately wanted for all its citizens. We are no longer at war with eachother, but we will be if this continues. The more we allow violence to beget violence, the more our society will descend into darkness. Someone has to stop the cycle for the sake of our children. It is far more courageous to REFUSE to carry a gun knowing that someone else might take your life, for the sake of stopping the cycle of violence. You think that your guns make you strong a tough. Guns are for cowards.
For everyone that thinks just because guns are illegal in other countries, including in Europe, have no issues with people being gunned down or robbed, you've got it wrong. They still suffer from those issues just like we do! And what about that grandmother shopping in Portugal or Spain last year that got chased down in a crowded market and was decapitated in front of dozens of people and then had her head carried around by her attacker until he was caught by police. I'll try not to make a big deal, too, out of how difficult it makes it for the police officers, who in most of these "gunless" countries, have to rely on tasers (although not all of them are authorized to carry them) and their own self defense techniques to take the bad guys down. So, who ends up with the guns in those countries? Criminals!
Shocked? Really? This is gun-crazy USA. Stuff like this happens a couple of times a week. It's not even news anymore. The more people with guns, the more this is going to continue. Get used to it.
Sam Adams, you're sadly mistaken. How about some satistics to back up your claims. 3 million people in Switzerland out of 8 million own fully automatic rifles and they only have 34 gun related deaths a year. DC has more than that with a lower population and harsh gun laws. So you just make stuff up, because it makes you feel good, or you just like to look like an idiot?
The guns in Switzerland are military issue as their citizenery get to keep them after national service in case they are called at a later date. Most do not even have ammunition for them . If you were to use any common sense you would realise they are the true form of an armed militia .
I know they are for armed militia, but they had ammo up until 2007. Now only fast response units keep ammo and police. I guess the swiss government took gun rights away from citizens too. Well damn, I stand corrected. Still the stats from before 2007 stand. 34 deaths a year and now they still have gun related crime.
I personally hate guns and don't want them in my house. That is my Personal choice. I will not impose my choice on others.
If you make guns illegal or harder for the good citizens to get, people will still have them. It's called the black market. The criminals will always find a way to get a gun if they want one. We've seen it many times before.
What we want to do is make sure that those who do own guns, get the proper training in using them, storing them (especially if they have children) and teaching their family about them. This doesn't stop the illegal use but it will stop some of the accidental shootings which have taken place and just may stop some of the other shootings also.
And I go back once again to a justice system which stinks. Gives out slaps on the wrist faster than criminals can post bail. Over worked Probation Officers who either don't have the time to do their job or have to pick and choose who to keep track of. All this while they have sent a rover up to Mars. Really? Are we going to live there soon? How much did that cost that could be re-directed? I bet there is government spending that can be cut back on. I bet there is local government spending that can be cut back on that won't hurt the people.
Get our troops out of war and see how much we save that can be re-directed for the good of the nation. It just seems there are better way to have kids grow up than with thinking that guns, drugs are the best way to go.
marsha-2280050, Well said, and I agree. However, I know we can do something, even little steps to start, like banning assault weapons, and large capacity ammo clips that are only for large egos, and killing large amounts of people.
Your observation about going to Mars, makes good sense to me. I would add, although medical research is good from space, so is more advanced weapon systems that we have yet to bring to life, to kill life.
regards,
Paul
Problem with just allowing others to make their own choice about gun ownership is that they do just that...and then someday it is you who gets shot by one of the "extremely rare" cases of a irresponsible gun owner.
In general, the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban defined any firearm with a detachable magazine and at least two of certain other characteristics as an assault weapon.
For rifles, those characteristics included:
For shotguns:
For handguns:
Automatic weapons have always been banned. So, except for the restriction on grenade launchers attached to rifles, you are supporting a ban on firearms that look funny.
it don't matter, whether it be guns, vehicles, drugs, or politicians, people will continue to kill others.
Man has a very sinful nature! Why can't you people understand this???
As the pig loves the slop and the mud, so man loves to sin!!!
Humans have a very wicked killing streak!
Denver, and then in 2004, the Bush administration let the ban on assault weapons expire ... purposefully. Nothing in politics is done by accident. Obama has been trying to reinstitute that ban, but Congress keeps blocking it.
...and they pried the gun from the owners cold dead hands.......just as he predicted........
What makes Americans so violent? Why is it the reaction to a negative situation (job loss, divorce, illness) is to kill others (sometimes thier kids) then self? This happnes every day, or so it seems, perhaps this is nature's way of reducing a violent people?
Well, it's because in the past several decades there's this preaching of everyone gets a blue ribbon for showing up or a gold star for breathing. When reality hits these kids as adults, that not everyone gets a blue ribbon and you actually have to take responsibility for yourself, they don't know how to handle adversity, and go off the deep end.
If you've ever coach little league anything, you see this all the time. While coaching my son's soccer team, I had a few run ins with a couple of parents. Basically their kid wanted to play a position they couldn't, and the parents wanted me to put them there ahead of kids who actually were very good at that position and worked extra hard to get it too. I wasn't going to put a kid who tries half-arse and pouts when he didn't get his way ahead of the ones that worked harder and is better. After a few games, those kids stop comming to practice and games, so what does that tell you. That they are quiters in the first place.
Swamprat, I think it's a combinatioin of things that makes the culture in the US very different from other countries. The US is a very achievement oriented culture combined with a low social support system. Many people in the US highly value beauty, success, and wealth at almost any cost, and those who cannot compete really are unworthy of life in their view. They won't come right out and say it, but the way they treat the less fortunate is more telling than any politically correct bull@!$%# they spew.
We are individualistic in the extreme and do not place a lot of value on family ties or close relationships which means when people struggle there is little social support for them. They are simply expected to pick themselves up by their bootstraps and move on. But not everybody is equipped to move on. People who struggle usually find themselves abandoned and completely alone in a society that mocks them at best and at worst just does not give a @!$%#. Our pathetic social safety net is already under attack, and programs for the mentally ill are often one of the first on the chopping block when it's time to make cuts so the elite ie important people can keep more of their funds because afterall, they deserve it and everybody else does not. The US is very darwinian and their citizens highly resent having to care for just about anyone who cannot compete.
We are quasi psychopathic at our core.
@Nixon99 - very thought-provoking post. There certainly has been a decrease in extended family and community networks and inter-reliance over the past 30 years. We're a more mobile population with fewer people staying in the same areas over generations, much of this related to shifts in employment and job instability. Families and marriages have also become less secure.
Emphasis has become more on getting material things, recreation and entertainment instead of time spent with family and friends.
Yes, there is less pressure for individual conformity to narrow community norms; but that individual freedom has come at a cost in loss of loyalty, concern and support. Not idealizing the "back in the days", but do question whether the trade off has been worth it.
99% of the violence is men. Whenever a female is the perp, it's usually akin to the Philly ghetto trash who beat up that retarded woman who was doing nothing more than sitting on her front steps.
Let's post ponies.
With the Economy the way it is expect more downsizing and layoffs and Yes More Gun Violence.
Homicide rates around the world. Question. Standard of living etc. is similar in the UK and Canada as it is in the US, so why is the murder rate four times higher in the US than either of these other countries? What else, other than the legality of gun ownership makes Americans so much more likely to murder one another?
That doesn't even take into account all the accidental deaths from gun ownership.
Yes, if you're determined to kill someone you will, but if you go into a workplace with a knife are you really going to manage to kill four people before you're disarmed? It's also a lot more personal to stab someone with a knife than to point a gun at someone and simply pull the trigger. Guns make murder easy.
Sam, I wish more people could experience this. I love living in America, but I feel sad for my children that they will never know the peace I knew as a child. People will argue this because they do not know what it's like and I wish I could share it so they would. It's a hard thing to try and explain to people because unless you experience it personally, you won't understand.
I believe it's a cultural thing. We have a much poorer social safety net in the US, and our social ties are often frayed in not nonexistent. People have nowhere to turn when the country and values they held so dear fail them. They suddenly find themselves on the outside looking in, and they begin to see things so much more clearly. They are startled to realize they are now on of "those people" meaning the ones they used to make fun or or deride for being lazy and unfit for life. People don't want to be around you when you're down in the US. They fear you'll infect them with your bad luck and negative energy. And quite frankly you are no fun to be around anymore when you're unemployed. So people stop calling and invites stop coming. They whisper about you and feign concern for your plight all the while secretly believing you deserved it.
People in the US are very naive about things because they have been sheltered for so long. They believe that all it takes is hard work to get ahead in life and that those that fall on hard times must have somehow deserved it. They simply cannot fathom that other factors beyond ones control can ruin a person's life or limit possibilities. We still stigmatize the mentally ill.
A horrible scenario we've seen again and again, just horrible. But more than once I've seen ugly scenes at businesses where it's a wonder someone didn't come back with a gun. At a big manufacturing plant in Indiana I was present when the boss called contractors together two days before Christmas to announce, "We're shutting down until mid-January, and won't need you." Then he smirked and said, "And none of you gets paid for those days," and then he walked away. It's a wonder something ugly didn't happen. Ebenezer Scrooge would have been proud of him. Those so-called job creators and doofus managers would do well to remember that they're dealing with human beings, not statistics, not "human resources", and that their often callous, thoughtless behavior affects peoples lives.
This is the rule, not the exception, isn't it? The mythical "lawfully armed citizen" who could've stopped the gunman was MIA yet again. If only one of the Internet commandos posting here was on the scene...
you can take guns into work?? Didn't realize. Maybe that is why no one was armed.
You are a damn fool
yeah, really, and that guy thinks he should have a gun of course.
AL KYDA, The name says it all!!! moron
All these want to be cowboys shooting each other up. It's a disgrace that our country allows for weapons under our constitution. How many of us have to fall victim to people with guns before it ends? The rich NRA continues to twist the arms of our politicians with their lobbyists and Americans continue to want that false feeling of security by having guns. Other first world countries don't have them and they're just fine. Guns are for police, hunters and soldiers. The rest of us don't need guns. Join the police or military if you feel the need to use a gun. Too many Annie Oakley get your gun types. No more loss of life due to lunatics with guns.
"Other first world countries don't have them and they're just fine"
Which countries? It is hard to find a definitive list...less Singapore and Malaysia.
NYCcat, stay in NY. No one needs you to tell them how to live. Also, if your going to post such idiotic blather please provide statistics to prove your point. I'm going to post this one last time, bacause you obviously didn't read it in my first post. Switzerland has 3 million citizens out of 8 million tha own fully automatic firearms. They average roughly 34 firearm related deaths a year. DC and Chicago have about 44 per year, but that is only out of every 100,000 people. Not 8 million. Germany, the UK and france still have firearm related deaths and they have 0 tolerance gun laws. So what country's? Syria, Lybia, Iran, California?
If only the cowards would shoot each other, instead of innocent people.
He found a "Second Amendment Solution." The NRA should be proud of him.
Dont worry libbies, I'm sure the dead will still cast their vote for Obama.
And unfortunately for you conservies, Mitt Romney just lost a vote- the gunman died, too.
You do realize "darro..." that dead people casting votes is an urban myth. Based on the false logic that if dead people are on the voting rolls than they must vote. The never-ending stupidity of the sheep crowd just continues to amaze me....
..because dead people don't cash SS or Welfare checks either...
Mark,
Do you have ANY proof whatsoever that dead people have voted in the last 40 years? No, didn't think so! Please get educated:
"The truth of the matter is that voter fraud—votes knowingly cast by ineligible individuals—is exceedingly rare; one is more likely to be struck by lightning than to commit voter fraud. In 2007, the Brennan Center released The Truth About Voter Fraud, the most extensive analysis of voter fraud claims to date. The report finds that most allegations of fraud turn out to be baseless—and that of the few allegations remaining, most reveal election irregularities and other forms of election misconduct, rather than fraud by individual voters."
http://www.truthaboutfraud.org/
Uhhh yes I have proof... Rare means that it happens...
"The truth of the matter is that voter fraud—votes knowingly cast by ineligible individuals—is exceedingly rare;
Thank you for Educating me... with your own example...
I always get a chuckle out of Ignorant people telling others the get educated....Thanks for the chuckle Jed7...
MarkDW - Who do you think pays for the beefed up security we need now to protect ourselves from gun 'enthusiasts' - at airports, to improve law enforcement, in schools, etc. - taxpayers Mark, taxpayers.
'In an age of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.' - George Orwell
Oh..I thought we needed to protect ourselves from Box Cutter "enthusiasts"
Do you think that if guns were illegal, we could have that beefed up security stand down? Or do you think someone could still sneak an AK47 in their 8 year old's size 4 shoe?
Ahem.... I was commenting on voter fraud..So, what got in your drawers and twisted your skivvies into a knot?
Now that we're onto politics.....I just heard Willard Romney is going to raise taxes on the middle class if he can get the chance. Wow, that doesn't sound like a republican value, does it ?
Does he still follow that religion started by JOSEPH SMITH in NY state, 1832-4, so he could have multiple wives ?
Did Romney ever finish his "car elevator" ? Good 'ole conservative values !!
Does Mitt still have money in foreign bank accounts ? More good 'ole values !!!
Did Mitt ever come clean on that sticky mess with BAIN CAPITOL ?
Will Mitt let middle class taxpayers pay his 14% or was it 15% tax rate ??
Remember what he said: "THE TREES IN MICHIGAN ARE THE RIGHT HEIGHT"
Vote for Mitt, a true American sleaze bag and a**hole
Strange they dont mention his name or nationality.
Must be a reason.
If it doesnt start out with "White man shoots....." then its biased.
Odd
Oh please. You are really having to reach to feed your paranoia on this one.
I wonder if he had a history of mental illness or perhaps other bad things (divorce etc.) going on that pushed him over the edge.
I wonder if anyone has done the research and statistics on rise in mental illness related violence since Reagon got rid of all the mental/psych hospitials and facilities and put them out on the street.
"Reagon got rid of all the mental/psych hospitials and facilities"
Really? And since then, not a single one has been reopened...and that is why this guy was not able to get and help....? There are no "mental/psych hospitals or facilities" open at this time....?
This is why Liberals running this country is a scary thought...your hate is so all consuming, that you will say or convince yourself of anything..just in order to feed your hate..
Mark: Mary was making an intelligent, honest observation. I fail to perceive any 'consuming hate' in her comment. Perhaps you are 'projecting' your emotions on to her???? She is absolutely correct when she stated that many mental health facilities were closed during America's trickle down era. In this particular situation what 'trickled down" were America's new homeless-the mentally ill (which includes many of our veterans) I am not saying this with hatred-I am simply stating my opinion. I also would like to point out that your post does not reflect any real compassion for our fellow Americans......."Are there no workhouses" Are there no prisons?"
She said "Reagon got rid of all the mental/psych hospitials and facilities"
That is honest...this is Intelligent? Blaming this shooter on Reagan.... She is taking this tragedy and trying to politicize it..
Peace... You know, I have been thinking about this. Maybe she wasn't trying to be hateful, but I still say it was far from honest or intelligent..
Many on the Vine "do" throw out such statements just for their ideology and make their decisions based on irrational views.. So, my apology to Mary if I misread your intentions..
Peace to you..
The de-institutionalization of the mentally ill began long before the Reagan era. People who are dating this problem to the 1980's are disingenuous or uninformed.
Mark: Thank you. I apologize if I misinterpreted what you wrote. Peace be to you also......
I'm sorry people get killed like this all of the time...but when you destroy someone's life (especially if they may be stressed out from other events happening around them)...this is what you get. Refusing to live by the Golden Rule of treating others as you would like to be treated leads to this happening. Accept it and learn to live with it.
Great JOB NRA and GUN POLITICIANS, A fantastic CONTROL and REGULATION NON-EXISTENT EFFORT. How is the CHALK BOARD SCORE LOOK?
Victims 11111, 11111, 11111 and Gun Toter's 1
We are winning says the NRA and GUN POLITICIANS. We have achieved CONTROL of our PEOPLE !!!
Your all FANATICS and WHACK JOBS. PERIOD !!
YOU SHOULD BE SUED FOR AIDING and ABETTING, and NEGLIGENCE !!!
A bottle of gas with a rag stuffed in it can kill too. Outlawing guns won't stop people who disregard the law. Arming yourself and returning fire will though. Time Americans revisit our past, grow a set people! Get a gun and learn how to use it!!!
This isn't the old west, that 's the problem in the first place. This is the new west, 2012, wake up.
Maybe you should wake up, laws aren't going to stop people from having guns , drugs or anything else they want. The police can't be everywhere all the time. Learn to protect yourself or risk being a victim.
He did and killed 5. This was the law abiding gun owner right up until the time he flipped and opened up. so don't slide him over to the "criminal" side when you count up the stats. This guy could get off 15 or more shots before you could blink, much less react.
Bull$hit! First, I don't know where he got his weapon, but his parents said, " Andrew struggled with mental illness for years..." which means he should not have a gun to begin with, which makes a strong case for background checks.
As for some "guy could get off 15 or more shots before you could blink,..." I don't think so, one of the witnesses said "He had watched his boss get shot and his best friend and two other people,..." if there was time to see that there was certainly time to aim and return fire. Some may stand there like a limp dicked moron but anyone with proper training would know what to do as an instant responder.
The shooter is Andrew J. Engeldinger, 36. Company founder Reuven Rahamim, who was killed sorry he ever came to this country.
The hardest years for men in their 30's.
He was 36
With the rich elites, CEO's, banksters and the like voting themselves pay raises and screwing over working class and middle class with stagnating wages, for almost 20 years now, it's amazing we don't see more of these murders ?
It is the sign of the times right now. People getting laid off in a bad economy. There seems to be more and more of this going on. That does not give a person the right to kill someone else. However, when you are trying to survivie financially, sometimes a person snaps and goes after the person responsible for them losing their job.
I am from MN and have heard the local news saying that he was fired, not laid off. The company was actually planning to hire more employees. You can't always blame it on something else like the economy. I would assume if he was fired, there were already some issues at work.
I believe the NRA and GUN POLITICIAN are behind all of this. They are the ONES who SLASHED AND AXED MAJOR FUNDING FROM MENTAL ILLNESS AND PSYCH/MENTAL HOSPITALS. But INCREASE the FUNDING for the GUN LOBBYIST AND ALL RELATED GUN BUSINESSES.
FOLKS, Do you see a pattern of WHO IS MENTAL and FANATIC and who is avoiding, getting RID of TREATMENT for these SLUGS.
We see paranoid Schizophrenia behavior.
Can you explain how the NRA slashed and axed major funding? Can you tell us why Obama would put the NRA in charge of the Appropriations Committee?
If this is true, I am sorry..It appears that you are directly affected..
alain....your liberal buddies lawyers at the aclu are some of the ones who let the koo koo's out of the nest in the 70's.you liberals got rid of many mental health institutions and let them free.i know. i grew up about a 1/4 mile from dunning in the nw suburbs of il.when you libs let the nutcases go we used to watch them walk down narragansett and irving pk road in their sheets. we had one murder from a realeased nut case in our neighborhood back then.dunning was built on an american indian burial ground well over 100 years ago.
Guns don't kill people, jerks with guns kill people.
yeaa, yeah, yeah...same 'ol, same 'ol right?
Looks like we need to get rid of people instead of guns. In fact the guns can help us get rid of people.
YO NUMBO. You will SEE the FLYING BOTTLE AND FLAMES. Time to move out of the way!
NOT WITH GUNS AND NOT SEEING BULLETS. THEY YOU DO NOT SEE COMING AT YOU. DUH !!
What?!
Way too funny dude...
It's just one example fool, a knife, an IED, an car running down people on the sidewalk. Guns are not the only thing that can kill A-hole! BTW after the first shot you'll probably know whats going on before 4 or 5 people are dead. Move to CA with the rest of the fruits & nuts!