Cool, Armyret1991. A bigot tough guy. You never see those in the military.

Finally, trying to "cure" homosexuality is like trying to cure being left-handed.

It's stupid and counter-productive.

Moreover in children it can cause permanent damage.

elliot-3020456

I know adults who went to church camps to pray their own gay away, didn't work. But I don't think that the Government should ban it.

If you think there should laws against false advertizing or deceitful business scams, then you should be behind this law as well.

You're not reading closely enough. You can still do it. You just can't do it as a licensed therapist. Any fool can hang out a shingle.

I wonder if we can cure str8 ppl. from being total morons,

Lola1234 - when the time comes that she falls in love and decides to get married, I want it to be with someone who is TRULY in love with her and NOT someone who has been PROGRAMMED to THINK that he loves women.

Exactly right.

Some think this is natural. If so, why is it only possible to pro-create with male and female?

Your argument here makes no sense. These statements would seemingly indicate the the term natural only implies the ability to reproduce. We all know that this is not the meaning of the word. Natural means "found in nature". Homosexuals are found in nature and are therefore natural.

Spiddas,You are off topic and absolutely disgusting to compare Charles Manson to anybody who is homosexual.

know adults who went to church camps to pray their own gay away, didn't work. But I don't think that the Government should ban it.

I don't either -- for consenting adults. That's the key phrase CONSENTING ADULTS. I think it's entirely appropriate to ban it for children. Beside, no matter how you look at homosexuality, children are generally confused sexually anyway -- at least some are. Let them sort it out naturally. THEN if they find they are still homosexual when they are adults and THEY want to try and do something to change it. Then it's their CHOICE as CONSENTING ADULTS. (Note: I'm not saying it CAN be changed, but I do think that adults have the right to try if they so desire.)

(BTW: This is the same reason I don't oppose same-sex marriage either. It's between CONSENTING ADULTS and affects no one but themselves.)

I don't know about the permanent damage thing but what I do know if that government is interferring more and more into peoples lives. I call it "freedom erosion" and 911 kick started it.

I agree, providing SHE has not been programmed to think she loves men. This is so important and a decision that must be by the individual when they are mature enough to make that decision. We are born with a predisposition to sexuality, develop our preferences throughout childhood and into adulthood and family should support that development. Breathing, eating and sexuality are instincts, not learned behaviors. The techniques involved are learned over time but the instincts remain the same.

My brother had a doll and hand sewed clothing for it Some of our friends thought we should not allow that, but he has always been heterosexual. He is a natural for the textile industry and has successfully run several textile mills. He has several children and we are attending one's wedding this week. Had he been gay, I would not be spending so much money on wedding gifts, but he would still be my brother and still be successful in the textile industry.

I don't know why people get so aggravated and waste so much time worrying about who other's are comfortable having relations with. Spend that time and energy sweeping your own back porch.

RTGSC That is because the Jerry Sandusky case had nothing to do with being gay.

the way these maggots have destroyed this country and others around the world with their pro-homo B.S.

Oh, yeah, because I-there are no gay people in this country-ran is such a pillar of human achievement. /sarc-off

And progress marches on. I look forward to the day when people won't be discriminated against for their sexual orientation. I look forward to the day when LGBT individuals aren't treated as second class citizens, aren't treated as "less" than human beings. Ignorance is a formidable beast, and purposeful ignorance even more so -- and this fact is no more clear than in these comment sections. Yet, we are making huge strides. And soon, very soon I hope, we will see full equality and protection for LGBT individuals. Until that day, I just hope that those who are the subject of bullying, who are being harmed by ignorance, don't lose hope.

StraightAsABoard, I love the irony of your screen name.

Just keep telling yourself that you're straight....maybe it will help.

Spiddas,

Is the reason you gave all those quotes because you have nothing intelligent to say of your own about the subject?

Will people ever grow up and change? All we have done since the beginning of humanity is hate and kill and fear what is different. Science has helped make our lives better, but we are still the same hateful, fearful, killing creatures that we have always been. You wonder why there is crime and murder, just look at yourself. If you can't grow up and become a better person, how can you expect others to. Stop acting like savages.

StraightAsBoard, the story of Sodom in the bible was thousands and thousands of years ago, and the whole world hasn't converted since then. So I doubt another 75 is going to make a difference. And I'm tired of Christians using God as a weapon to hate people. God's about love, not hate. And I love how people agree with God on things that support their own agendas but have complete disregard with his ideas on others, like sex before marriage.

If you're right, if it's God's will, let God handle it. All of you stay out of it. Unless you think you're better than God and can do his job for him. i certainly don't, I know I'm not human, I don't play God like some people.

Why reinvent the wheel? All of the facts and stats will always trump "feelings".

Hence the final quote.

Statistically in a normal healthy population, homosexuals make up less than 3% of the population. (The Centers for Disease Control’s National Center for Health Statistics. The number they listed was 2.3%. According to this survey, only 2.3% of the males surveyed considered themselves to be homosexuals; 1.8% considered themselves to be bisexuals. Among men ages 18-44, 92% said they were attracted “only to females” and 3.9% “mostly” to females. Among women, 86% said they were attracted only to males, and 10% “mostly” to males.)

“The sin of nearly all left wingers from 1933 onwards is that they have wanted to be anti-Fascist without being anti-totalitarian.” –- George Orwell

The truth is, for many people prejudice, discrimination and hate toward LGBT people has nothing to do with religion. Religion is merely an excuse to justify their behavior. It's really about fear. Fear of change, fear of people who are "different", fear of anything that questions their black and white simple worldview. And they spread this fear -- making false claims about a "gay agenda", about how LGBT individuals are going to "convert" your children, etc. Those who try to spread fear do so because they are afraid. And this fear blinds them to facts, to truth, to the negative consequences of their own behavior. The best we can do is continue to educate, to fight for the rights of the LGBT community, and to be the positive example.

StraightAsABoard,

"That's when you will realize that GOD will make his second coming to destroy this world and take with ONLY his children who are NOT GAY and leave the rest to burn in hell with SATAN!"

Guess what! According to Christian theology there is no such thing as sex in heaven anyway. That means there will be neither homosexuals nor heterosexuals there. So enjoy your heterosexuality while you are here on earth because you won't have it anymore in heaven. At least that's what your Christian theologians say.

My own feeling is that this law may not be in the best interests of childhood victims of sexual assault who attempt to enter therapy during their teens. Mind you, I already have recognized gay sexual assault PHD therapist Joe Kort on record backing my position up, even though he is an outspoken defender of gay rights too. The problem is mainly one of semantics, as defenders of this law are opposed to religious sexual orientation conversion therapies, and what Joe Kort has recently defended is the difference between trying to treat same-sex attraction (SSA), which the majority view in psychology says is unchangeable, and trying to treat same-sex behavior, (SSB), which sometimes manifests itself in childhood sexual abuse victims.

Joe Kort wrote (Two years ago):
Childhood Sexual Abuse causes confusion for all men and women about sexual orientation. The re-enactment of the abuse as adults happens in many ways and all I was doing was trying to help heterosexual males understand that their same sex behaviors may be about CSA.

Also note I am *not* talking about same sex attractions. I am talking about same sex behaviors. There is a major difference. Gay and Bisexual men have sexual attractions to other men. Straight men do not. They will be attracted to the sexual behavior—not the men. The men are not even significant for the straight men but the sexual act with the man is. For the gay and bisexual man it is the man and the sexual behavior.

Feel free to cut and paste this right into your group if you like.
Hope this clarifies and helps.

This is what Dr Howard Fradkin (an experienced Childhood Sexual Abuse therapist out of Columbus, OH) said recently (November, 2010) on Oprah.com about the SSA/SSB topic as it pertains to victims of childhood sexual victimization.

"Some male survivors in Oprah's audience also struggle with sexual confusion. When boys are abused by men, Dr. Fradkin says they may experience sexual pleasure and enjoy the attention, but that doesn't mean these boys are homosexual. "Sexual orientation is determined early on in life, probably by age 4 or 5, and most abuse happens after that," he says. "It's not that the sexual abuse causes sexual orientation. It's that people get confused about it because they don't know what to feel about that connection they felt."

Dr. Fradkin appeared on both of Oprah Winfrey's recent 2010 TV shows about male Childhood Sexual Abuse, as did I.

This paragraph below was written by an outspoken gay CSA therapist from Sacramento, CA in 2010 about Dr. Fradkin's statement above:

That definitely matches all the (credible) research I've seen in the literature. It can get really challenging to discern where the line is, on the one hand, between feeling that connection they felt, and the sense of physical pleasure, which of course generates the confusion... and, on the other hand, understanding when what they're experiencing really does qualify as sexual orientation toward homosexuality. That's why looking at the fantasy material and attraction is generally a more accurate indicator of orientation than simply who one has sex with, and I think Fradkin is mirroring most of the current thinking by credible professionals on this issue.

The below statements were also made by the same Sacramento therapist as the above statement:

There is some evidence that under some very limited circumstances, sexual abuse can alter sexual preference. ("preference" and "orientation" are not the same.) In these cases, the perp was usually opposite sex, and the experience so traumatizing that the male survivor is so completely revulsed by anyone of the opposite that he seeks out a same-sex partner as he gets older. But if he is heterosexual, he will still be attracted to (and simultaneously revulsed by) women. If he fantasizes about men, is attracted to men, dreams about sex with men, that is not caused by the abuse, but by his underlying orientation, which, in that case, is not heterosexual.

Separately, there's voluminous evidence that sexual abuse, in some cases, can cause oversexualization (essentially an insatiable desire for sex) and the person who suffers from this may act out with both men and women. Here, the survivor is pretty indiscriminate and simply seeks to have an orgasm with another person and to a large extent doesn't care if it's a man or a woman. Again, whatever sex individual this person fantasizes about, dreams about, finds himself looking at on the street... that's the reliable indicator of sexual orientation.

And there's a third group: People who are homosexual by orientation, but are stuck in denial about that fact, and are trying with all their heart to blame their orientation on their CSA, in the mistaken belief that it can be changed. I have known people who have been in denial for 30+ years and have been insistent that they could change if only they got the right therapist, prayed harder, accepted Jesus, went to this-or-that program or what have you. And all they ever get for their efforts is misery and unhappiness and feeling like they constantly fail because they aren't good enough. But they are perfectly good enough. Perfectly healthy. Perfectly normal. Just gay.

Elizabeth Kubler-Ross was one of the pioneer researchers in the field of grieving and loss. Her book "On Death and Dying" was a bestseller, and among her most valuable contributions to the scientific literature was her identification of the stages of loss. The idea being that all humans, when confronted with any major loss (death of a friend, loss of a job, breakup of a marriage, etc.) go through a series of stages as they process that loss emotionally and psychologically.

The process of accepting one's homosexuality as innate and unchangeable is such a loss. So is, for most people, the acknowledgement and acceptance that they were sexually abused, and there was little or nothing they could have done to change that.

So, the way that I look at it, from a perspective of someone who is quite knowledgeable of this issue, is that this new California law may not be so good for legitimate childhood victims of sexual assault who seek therapy and recovery in their pre-adult teens. What the new law will do is to prevent religious organizations, NARTH included, from attempting their sexual orientation conversion therapies on anyone under the age of 18, and it will also preclude childhood sexual abuse therapists from attempting to treat the very similar same-sex behavior (SSB) issue in teenagers in CSA recovery which is sometimes manifested in same-sex sexual victimization re-enactment incidents, which is a very-treatable symptom of childhood sexual victimization according to numerous experienced legitimate CSA therapists, including gay members of that community.

Please know that I am very liberal and fully support full civil rights for all Americans regardless of any possible minority standing, which includes sexual orientation.

Spiddas,

“The sin of nearly all left wingers from 1933 onwards is that they have wanted to be anti-Fascist without being anti-totalitarian.” –- George Orwell

It's funny that you should quote George Orwell. Didn't you know that he was a socialist? In his 1938 essay "Why I joined the Independent Labour Party," published in the ILP-affiliated New Leader, Orwell wrote:

For some years past I have managed to make the capitalist class pay me several pounds a week for writing books against capitalism. But I do not delude myself that this state of affairs is going to last forever ... the only régime which, in the long run, will dare to permit freedom of speech is a Socialist régime. If Fascism triumphs I am finished as a writer – that is to say, finished in my only effective capacity. That of itself would be a sufficient reason for joining a Socialist party

StraightAsABoard - skrekk, you are probably a supporter of Ellen Degenerate and Gay Rights!

Yep, I support equal rights for all Americans - not just special rights for straight folks like me.

"But I don't think that the Government should ban it."

I don't know Elliot, who has the real sickness, those who are gay, or those who mentally carry the hate for them?

The Big Bad Wolf!

Shut the @!$%# up with your made up god, Board. Your cult is run by closeted homosexuals.

I will assume that you didn't have time to read what I wrote, considering that we posted in the same exact minute.

How would any concerned party determine who is a legitimate childhood sexual assault therapist and who isn't? This list of approved CSA therapists from the Male Survivor.org website should suffice for now:

http://www.malesurvivor.org/resource-directory.php

"It's a shame that you will live to the see the day when there are no normal people left in this world."

If you're a symbol of what you think is normal StraightAsABoard, then humanity is truly doomed.

Here is a resource directory for survivors of childhood sexual victimization too:

http://www.malesurvivor.org/resource-directory.php

"skrekk, you are probably a supporter of Ellen Degenerate and Gay Rights! It's a shame that you will live to the see the day when there are no normal people left in this world. Only lesbians and homos! That's when you will realize that GOD will make his second coming to destroy this world and take with ONLY his children who are NOT GAY and leave the rest to burn in hell with SATAN!"

You are one sick puppy Straight, sick with religious rhetoric. The hypocrisy oozes out of you like a festering sore.

Then you would say people are born as murderers, pedophiles, rapists, etc etc. They dont need counseling or imprisonment. I mean, it's not their fault, they were born that way.

Obviously you have no clue about what "legal consent" means, or why homosexuality is legal, while murder, rape, and child molestation are not.

funny how I didnt hear a peep from the gay community when the Jerry Sandusky case was uncovered.

Perhaps that is because Jerry Sandusky, like approximately 90% of all child molesters/pedophiles, is heterosexual.

The morons are people who think they can participate in un-natural behavior, yet have the right to have children, just as people who can actually create children.

How is that relevant to anything? And what about the millions of heterosexuals who cannot "create" children?

THERESA-532036:

Please cite your source that proves being gay is predetermined at birth...anyone? anyone? That's what I thought

Just a quick question to all of you saying that homosexuality is an abomination to god.

Have you ever had lobster for dinner? Have you ever worn a cotton/polyester blend shirt? If so, you're damned to hell for eternity and god wants you put to death immediately.

See if you'd even read your bible, you'd know that eating shellfish or wearing clothes of multiple fabrics are also abominations to god at the same level of (at least male) homosexuality.

I'm sick of these lobster eaters destroying our country! God hates your Satan worshiping shellfish industry!

Even a stopped clock can be correct a couple times a day...

"What luck for rulers that men do not logically think." -- Adolf Hitler

and

"Religion, it's what keeps the Poor, from murdering the Rich" -- Napoleon

and

“Power depends ultimately on physical force. By teaching people that violence is wrong (except, of course, when the system itself uses violence via the police or the military), the system maintains its monopoly on physical force and thus keeps all power in its own hands.” –- Ted Kaczynski, from an interview posted on usenet

It doesn't mean I follow their ideologies. It's more like something to learn from. Even a bad example is a good example of what NOT to do...

Don't all of you find great amusement in comment 1.2, where Armyret says "I thought", and comment 1.2, where elliot admits "I don't think"?

StraightAsABoard:: For one thing, the byebull you are talking about was written by MORTAL MAN, not by that guy in the sky. What the heck gave them the idea to write a whole book about something they didn't witness themselves? How did they know what was said thousands of years before by some guys who could have been figures of their imaginations? What did their christ look like? It depends on who described him amd what nationality they thought he was.

Two, so God created man and woman for the sole purpose of having brats? God created man and woman to be companions to each other-- the same way two men or two women can do. Two people, regardless of their sex, can give love and COMPANIONSHIP to each other. And withhout screwing and having brats.

I loved and married a man who loved me. We CHOSE to not have any brats. I guess your god figures that we were living in sin. We were husband and wife for 15 years at the time of his death. We are still husband and wife (have been for 24 years now).

It is homophobic bigots like you and ilk like you that don't understand nature.

Look... For all Christians who believe or say that "homosexuals will burn in Hell," or whatever... Why try to cure them, then? If you don't want to live on this planet with homosexuals (Which, clearly, a lot of people do not), then let them be gay in this life. They'll supposedly go to Hell when they die. And I'll be down there with them, because I support equality. Until that time, just deal with it. What's 70-80 years when compared to eternity? And if God truly hates homosexuals and will cast them away from His side, then He's not a God worth following.

And happy42xxx, please site YOUR source that says Homosexuality ISN'T predetermined at birth. Anyone, anyone? That's what I thought.

Spiddas,

Exactly what point are you trying to make with all of your quotes from famous/infamous people (including the Unabomber)? They're all interesting quotes, but none of them was talking about the state of California banning trying to cure gay children.

Real world progressive said:

Just a quick question to all of you saying that homosexuality is an abomination to god.

The Bible says 'Thou shalt not lie with a man as with a woman, it is an abomination.' The Bible says nothing about two females lying down together.

So, question---Why does God have a double standard?

Or could it possibly be that the Council of Nicaea, who started putting together a book of Christian teachings in 329 CE (that was eventually called 'The Bible')were human men and thought that two girls together was hot, like most of the male population out there, and realized if they put that in the Bible no one would read it so they left it out?

StraightAsABoard:: Gay is a disease? NO! Ignorance is a disease, and that is your problem. That is the disease that you have, and there is no cure for that disease.

THERESA-532036 Thank you! I didn't choose to be straight any more than some others chose to be gay. They just are. That's just how they are "wired"

Here's a question for all you religious people out there. It is said God doesn't make mistakes. God created us all, is what you say, right? Well, by saying that homosexuality is an "abomination", aren't you saying that God DID make a mistake when He created some people? Well, which is it.

And, just for full disclosure, my daughter is gay. I am straight, so is her Mom. We may be divorced, but so what? You going to blame it on that? She was raised well, in not one, but 2 loving homes. Her Mom comes from a large family, so she has a vast support network. She knows that if she needs anything from me, to just pick up the phone. If I have it, and she needs it, she has it. Just that fast.

No one trained her to be gay. No one inducted her. She met this other girl one day, after dating a few boys, and something clicked. She's only 20, so who knows? It may change in the future. Her Catholic Grandma is in fits over it. I for one, couldn't care less which team she plays for, as long as she's happy. And, she is. I've met her partner many times. She is a great person. I know several other gays and lesbians as well. All of them are also very happy people. I respect them, one and all, because they are living life on their own terms, not what others would define for them. They want to take over, or convert nothing. They just want the same rights as the rest of us.

And Ellen is one very funny lady!

Oh, and one last thing--if homosexuality is such a sin, then why isn't that one of the Ten Commandments?

Amanda - I like what Lynn Lavner says "The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals, and 362 to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love straight people, just that they need more supervision"!!

For those of you who advocate for this 'gay cure', have you ever actually seen what this 'cure' consists of?

In its most extreme form, children are exposed to gay porn. If there is a physical reaction, painful stimuli is applied to the genitalia in order to produce an association in the brain that stimulation equals pain. The stimuli is commonly administered in the form of electricity.

Anyone who advocates strapping a child down, forcing them to watch porn, and electrocuting them if there is a physical reaction needs to experience it themselves. Now, once a child reaches adulthood and elects to go through it of their own volition, I have no problem with it, but NO CHILD should have to go through this.

@ elliot-3020456
"I someone wants to pay me to chase the ghosts out of their house, read their palm or pray their daughter's gay away thats their deal. I don't think the government should be controlling people's lives like this."

The government isn't controlling what people do to themselves, it's stopping ignorant people from trying to brainwash people that don't need changing.

@RTGSC
"Great point, Theresa. Then you would say people are born as murderers, pedophiles, rapists, etc etc. They dont need counseling or imprisonment. I mean, it's not their fault, they were born that way. Homosexuality is sick and perverted just like pedophilia. Hmmm...funny how I didnt hear a peep from the gay community when the Jerry Sandusky case was uncovered."

You're problem stems from the fact that you can't distinguish between consensual acts and forced acts. Homosexuality is NOT the same thing as pedophilia. Considering there's a lot of straight pedo's out there, you're logic is just wrong.

And to all the 'god says it's wrong' Abrahamic faith crowd... your god is a child killing despot that approves of genocide, rape, incest, misogyny and ignorance. What reasonable person would follow such a poor excuse of morality.

DoneBendingOver4GOP,

"I know several other gays and lesbians as well. All of them are also very happy people. I respect them, one and all, because they are living life on their own terms, not what others would define for them. They want to take over, or convert nothing. They just want the same rights as the rest of us."

Thank you! That was very well said. I think most of these religious people who so vociferously condemn homosexuality have never had gay children of their own or at least do not know it if they do have gay children. Gay children will usually not tell their parents they are gay if they know in advance they are going to meet with rejection. It's nice to learn that you accept your gay child. Many parents do not.

I had thought it would be interesting to discuss the quackery of this therapy, but too many collapsed comments. Just not worth discussing.

I'll say one thing and won't be back. The people that do this so called "treatment" should be prosecuted for running a scam.

JOregon said:

The people that do this so called "treatment" should be prosecuted for running a scam.

The people who perform the 'therapy' I described at 1.69 should be prosecuted for dissemination of porn to a minor, child sexual abuse, neglect and endangerment, assault and battery. People who sign their kids up for this, knowing what the 'therapy' consists of, should be prosecuted with child neglect, endangerment, and their child should be removed from the home.

Have you wondered what the therapists are thinking watching a child scream when electricity is applied? Sick.

The cure is worse than what ails you. Just like all those new drugs that say 'oh, we'll cure your depression but it maight give you thoughts of suicide and make you want to kill yourself.' If you get the patient to kill themselves you're curing the depression, right?

If the child is in so much pain and so conflicted about their inner urges that they commit suicide, I gues you are 'curing' the gay--they'll be dead and orientation won't matter anymore.

California is a disgraceful national joke and a model for financial incompetance. The state is broke, the school systems stink and rank near the bottom, 20% of cities are looking at bancruptcy and businesses are leaving because of the hostile anti business climate. A proven cosmic muffin incompetant retread is governor yet again. Illegal immigration is out of control , unemployement is 3rd worst in the nation, taxes are among the highest, public service unions run the state (into the ground), but our our legislators always have time for non-sensical crap like this, mandating larger cages for chickens, regulating dog groomers and saving the delta smelt even if it means water might cost more per gallon here than gasoline in the long run. If you want to see what a country might look like when the majority are sucking off the government tit and can out vote all the sane poeple, this is it.

I am not Gay, but that doesn't mean I think no one else should be. I do not think homosexuality is any better or worse than heterosexuality, just different perspectives on the same subject. I don't agree with the thought that people are born with a sexual orientation, I think that comes as they develop their personalities. We are who we are....

The old testament is filled with tons of things that are described as sinful and our churches pick and choose what they will and will not follow. I have never gone to church and heard a sermon about the sin of eating pork and shellfish, have you?

blondeness032 - I don't agree with the thought that people are born with a sexual orientation, I think that comes as they develop their personalities.

You might want to learn a little about the brain structure differences between gays and straights, and how prenatal hormones and gene expression influence that structure.

On Children
Kahlil Gibran

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.

I don't think the government has a right to ban anything pertaining to the personal. It is the claim that people are born gay. Therefore there must be a gay gene. A lot of kids wish they weren't gay and many end up killing themselves over the problem. There has been a lot of success with gene therapy, why not for this if that is what the person wants? Banning "gay cure therapy" will also ban research into a gene therapy cure that a lot of people born gay might want. How many gay people would change if they had a way to do it? This is political grandstand BS and basically saying if you are born gay, we won't let you change that. Who the hell are they to say you can't be whatever you want to be? For that matter, who are the other gay people who happen to like being that way, to say others can't want to change and shouldn't be given a chance to do so.

Spiddas & Straight,

I went to go hear Amy Goodman speak yesterday. You should look her up. She said something, seriously profound about our species history of warfare.

I can say, without a doubt, it is people like YOU TWO, that make war a reality.

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."

"I like your Christ, I do not think I like your Christians."

-Ghandi

Put those quotes in your pipe and smoke it.

Thank you Sarah. Great words to remember....

Shaking my head,

"A lot of kids wish they weren't gay and many end up killing themselves over the problem."

Gays are not killing themselves because they are gay. Those who kill themselves do it because of the way our society treats gays. You say you are opposed the the state banning the attempt by quacks to "cure" gays of their homosexuality because the state is getting involved in our personal lives, but were you also just as opposed to the states passing sodomy laws to criminalize being gay? All 50 states have had such laws, and most still do, although they can no longer enforce them because of the Supreme Court's decision that they are unconstitutional. If you are opposed to the state getting involved in our personal lives, then you should at least be consistent and oppose all laws discriminating against gays.

MGrinder

One step for man...

My, that's quite the bigoted statement, you absolutely ignored the women. But what else is to be expected from a Liberal or Progressive Democrat, I know, I repeat myself.... or did you mean "Mankind", and forgot to include the rest of the United States's homosexual population out of your built-in prototypical selfish nature.

Personally, I could give a crap about someones sexual orientation, but I do find it pretty sad that some people make such a big fuss or pretend to be concerned about another persons sexual orientation. That's because your the type of people who pray on kids, my kids. And for obvious reasons, which I shall explain, I do believe homosexuality is detrimental to society, and people who are only outspoken about it, serve only to fuel and promote sexual promiscuity.... again, detrimental to society. Let's face it, and you should wake up and smell the coffee...... being sexually promiscuous is proven unhealthy, unless the practicing pair, triple, quadruple, quintuple, etc. etc. etc. are all infected with the same genital diseases, and have absolutely no future plans of "Doing It" with someone who's not infected...... to which I say, yea right, and Clinton didn't inhale either.

But nothing cures or solidifies a young man's sexual orientation better than an honest to goodness fun woman who truly enjoys sex. Not the kind that use it as a tool, but the kind who enjoy it. That beats any BS snake oil cure some greedy MF tries to sell. There, there,.... now, now, I know the truth hurts, and it's gonna break a lot of your friends hearts too, after all the hard work, and tireless (and least we forget shameless) efforts you homo's go through to maintain a solid recruitment base, but, that's the way the cookie crumbles, 1 good woman can destroy decades of hard work and homo-plotting.... Unless!!!!, I say, UNLESS you want to support your local Catholic church.... now there's a idea, and I think your best source of recruitment. According to the Lame Stream Media, an over whelming majority of Catholics priest are raging homosexuals,.. so on that note, might I suggest you give all you can, money that is, and pray that the church sends you new soldiers to win your war against the straights, because lord knows, if you had to rely on nature, your species would undoubtedly shrivel-up.

Duphus,

My, that's quite the bigoted statement, you absolutely ignored the women. But what else is to be expected from a Liberal or Progressive Democrat, I know, I repeat myself.... or did you mean "Mankind", and forgot to include the rest of the United States's homosexual population out of your built-in prototypical selfish nature.

Or, you know, he was simply quoting Neil Armstrong? Do you get that up in arms when someone says, "Hey guys, let's..."??? I mean, THAT would be exhausting.

Personally, I could give a crap about someones sexual orientation,

Stop lying, yes you do, otherwise you wouldn't have read this article, let alone posted a 300+ word essay on it.

That's because your the type of people who pray on kids, my kids

Well, that's just a lie. The vast majority of pedophiles are heterosexual men...

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

Let's face it, and you should wake up and smell the coffee...... being sexually promiscuous is proven unhealthy, unless the practicing pair, triple, quadruple, quintuple, etc. etc. etc. are all infected with the same genital diseases, and have absolutely no future plans of "Doing It" with someone who's not infected.

Will someone please tell STRAIGHT men this???

But nothing cures or solidifies a young man's sexual orientation better than an honest to goodness fun woman who truly enjoys sex

Do you speak from experience, or just for an entire demographic that you quite clearly have never spent any time around?

Not the kind that use it as a tool, but the kind who enjoy it

And yet, you were all up in arms over a quote with the word "men" in it.

According to the Lame Stream Media,

What you call liberal media, the rest of the world calls facts.

and pray that the church sends you new soldiers to win your war against the straights,

Don't worry, there are plenty of us, and the ranks grow bigger and stronger every day.

Guess the only thing left for a parent now is to toss them out on the street and let the Gov. deal with them. Can't fix it get rid of it with the other broken stuff basically.

dslodge,

"Can't fix it get rid of it with the other broken stuff basically."

You can't fix what isn't broken.

Government needs to stop thinking they have the right to legislate how parents raise their children or how they teach their children about sex, sexuality, morals, religion, what lifestyles are out there, discussions about being homosexual etc.. IF we don't draw a line somewhere soon government will dictate every thing we say and do and we'll have PC police monitoring our communications, schools even homes. IT's already starting when people say your a hater, a bigot and racist etc.. etc.. if you disagree with their views. We have something in this country called freedom of speech. I don't care if somebody is gay or lesibian, transexual etc.. etc.. as long as they don't try to push their beliefs on me or my family or dictate to the country how they are supposed tobe treated other than the normal civil rights we ALL enjoy!!! Different people can and should live side by side, valuing our differences NOT dictating how we are supposed to think act etc.. How I raise my family is my business alone and nobody elses as long as I'm not abusing my kids. I have the right as does everyone else to teach the values and beliefs of my own choosing and deal with any and all of my kids issues in the manner I chose NOT by some Govenor, senator, congressman, even POTUS!!!

Another example of how our beliefs, opinions etc.. are in danger is the unrest and violence in the middle east and Muslims trying to dictate to the rest of the world what we can and cannot say, believe etc. IF we don't stand for something we will fall for everythng and it's time that citizens start taking back some of the control over their own lives!!!!

Skrewed,

The government DOES have the power In Loco Parentis. Sorry, but if something harms a child, who lack legal capacity to protect themselves, the government CAN step in.

Note, that you can't "Spare the rod and spoil the child" either.

Furthermore, this law says NOTHING about what a parent can teach a child in the home. It dictates what LICENSED MEDICAL professionals can/can't do.

If it's quack science (which it is) and harmful (which it is), they can't do this, anymore then they can practice any other outdated medicine.

I know my post will be hugely UNpopular ... but then truth rarely is any more. Homosexuality is no different than other addiction. Just because people feel like they are this way does not mean they have to give in to it. There are a lot of people who have the addiction gene for drugs and alcohol and yet that does not mean they need to give in to it. Just because a person has homosexual tendencies and desires does not mean they have to give in to it. It is not that God is a cosmic kill-joy. It is because He made us and knows how we work the best. Just about everything His Word (the Bible) is against is because it is bad for us. He is simply trying to protect us as any father would do. Sadly peoples' attitudes are that they want to do what they want to do with no consequences. But there ARE consequences. Those who think there are none simply need to wait a little longer. There are ALWAYS consequences for wrongdoing. Either disease, broken relationships, etc. in this life or an eternity away from God in the next. "Do not be deceived. God is not mocked. What a man sows, he will also reap." Galatians 6:7 Just because society changes does not mean God changes. One day everyone will know the Truth.

Samantha,

Your post isn't unpopular because it's the truth, it's unpopular because it's TRIPE.

Homosexuality is no different than other addiction

ALL of the credible, medical community disagrees with you. This can ONLY be explained away by vast conspiracy theories, which are illogical and downright humorous, but please feel free. They're always good for a chuckle.

It is not that God is a cosmic kill-joy. It is because He made us and knows how we work the best. Just about everything His Word (the Bible) is against is because it is bad for us. He is simply trying to protect us as any father would do.

La la la la, I'm mocking your God, right now!!! Yup, no reaping going on.

I just thank my God everyday, that I'm free from YOUR God. If what you say is really what your God thinks, he sounds like a first class douche bag.

@StraightLumber:

I regret to inform you that the very important tool such as a computer you're using at this moment depends on the theory of computing developed by a gay person Alan Turing. It's very unfortunate that such attitudes as yours made him prosecuted for "gross indecency" and eventually drove him to suicide.

"I just thank my God everyday, that I'm free from YOUR God"

hehehe , do you have proof of "your God"? in the eyes of the left god is a myth , you are going against your political code , best watch it or the "party" will be issuing to you the same type of personal attacks you are throwing around

@Sarah:

By the way, go see "The perks of being a wallflower" movie. It deals with about same issues discussed here. It's an absolutely great movie, not just because of these issues, but also by its artistical merits.

Alex,

I saw a preview. It looks great.

@John Athondoe:

Turing was given a choice between imprisonment or probation conditional on his agreement to undergo hormonal treatment designed to reduce libido. He accepted the option of treatment via injections of stilboestrol, a synthetic oestrogen; this treatment was continued for the course of one year. The treatment rendered Turing impotent and caused gynecomastia.

Turing's conviction led to the removal of his security clearance, and barred him from continuing with his cryptographic consultancy for the Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ), the British signals intelligence agency that had evolved from GCCS in 1946

suicide is the weak minds way out, the LGBT community should have stepped up and supported him , maybe you should throw a little blame at them

You haven't walked in his shoes. There was no LGBT community in the open.

If people want to enter into this kind of "therapy" as adults, that's one thing. Forcing a child into it is another thing entirely.

People are terrified. They're upset and angry that there's not a magic pill out there to make their kids how they want them. They are looking for anything, desperate enough to do whatever it takes to have little carbon copies of themselves. They don't care about the methods as long as the results are what they want.

There's nothing wrong with people being gay or lesbian or whatever. Humanity will not collapse, religions will not crumble, seas will not swell nor will anyone suddenly become glitter wearing psychopaths.

Honestly, there's more important things out there to worry about than if someone is gay or not. Do what makes you happy and don't shove beliefs down others throats.

Samantha.............How will you cure your addiction to shell fish or clothes with mixed fabrics? Hmmmmm..............How will you cure your addiction for cutting your hair?The Bible clearly states a women is NOT to cut her hair................typical cherry picking uninformed so called "Christian"You are a poorly educated narrow minded bigoted fool with no idea what the Bible states as God's law!

I bet you even wear a whore red dress!

Wow amazing. From what I have read here the non christians and liberals are extremely prejudice, hatemongers who are very accusing all the christians of being hatemongers so they are also hypocrits. If I believe my child being gay will send them to hell and I dont care enough to try to stop them from going to hell then I am just as bad as most of you. If I am right about my beliefs then I am simply trying to help others by teaching them my beliefs. If I dont then I am a jerk. If you dont believe in them thats your choice, but if you get hateful because I care, I guess that makes you a double jerk. One for being hateful, and another because your being hateful towards someone simply because they care. And for the thick headed ones that say religion is from the stone age etc, there have always been atheists too. We really remember some of them such as Ghengis Khan, Hitler, Stalin, Atila, Alexander the great etc. People who either had no religion, didnt really follow there supposed religion or turned agaisnt their religion then became wacko's, that we know because of the body count they left behind.

No not all atheists are like them either, but to be very prejudice against all religious people when you dont dare look in the mirror at the bad atheists is very hypocritical. And if you cannot handle the truth and still talk rationally then there is no point in talking to people like you because all you can talk about is your self centered arrogant hate. Your so arrogant that you are right and anyone that disagrees with you is wrong even though neither side has ever been able to prove the other wrong. I dont believe simply because I think Im smarter (arrogance) I believe because I have faith in something much better than man.

Hmmmm, interesting.

Two headline articles about our economy and the banks garnered 13 and 56 comments respectively.

This article produces over 1,800 comments.

Priorities?

A good law if it also bans promoting gay lifestyle. After all this does go both ways.

Mickey: Merely pointing out facts and history, and how they relate to society today, and to show where we currently are on the timeline.

Sarah: I know the quote quite well. Don't hate me for being the bearer of bad news, but there have been MANY groups use that quote whose "missions" have failed miserably. Historically speaking, this is just another one of them...

Here's a little tidbit from the historical record:

Congressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35
January 10, 1963
Current Communist Goals
.....
15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.
16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.
17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks. (Education "Czar"?)
.....
24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.
25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.
26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."
.....
29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.
30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."
31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over. {Go look up the word "CZAR" and ask yourself why the feral federal government has so many of them...}
32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.
.....
38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].
.....
40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.

{I may have never been much of a saint, but with all of the history I've been reading over the past few years, I sure as hell have been working on cleaning up my act. That is THE choice.}

BTW - One word comes to mind regarding this decision in California. Psychobabble...

As noted below, you just doubled down on illogical paranoia.

Peter Jacobs: I agree. #1.77 - Great post! Especially if one remembers that "arrows" {the metaphor being used for children} fly farthest and are the most accurate when they are "straight" and have a "stable bow" {wise parent}...

Considering Gibran's background in various religions, this would point to the need for moral "uprightness" in order to lead a truly peaceful life.

Much of Gibran's writings deal with Christianity, especially on the topic of spiritual love. But his mysticism is a convergence of several different influences: Christianity, Islam, Sufism, Hinduism and theosophy. He wrote: "You are my brother and I love you. I love you when you prostrate yourself in your mosque, and kneel in your church and pray in your synagogue. You and I are sons of one faith—the Spirit." -- Wikipedia

The American Psychiatric Association

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, also known as the DSM, is the official
list of mental disorders that all mental health professionals refer to when diagnosing patients.

The first version, released in 1952, listed homosexuality as a sociopath personality disturbance. In 1968, the second version (DSM II) reclassified homosexuality as a sexual deviancy. Soon afterward, gay protestors began picketing at the APA’s annual conventions, demanding that homosexuality be removed from the list completely. In 1973, after intensive debate and numerous disturbances by gay activists, the APA decided to remove homosexuality from it’s next manual (DSM IV) completely.

What followed was a swarm of outrage from psychiatrists within the APA who disagreed with the decision and demanded that the issue be reconsidered. In 1974, a referendum was called and approximately 40 percent of the APA’s membership voted to put homosexuality back into the DSM IV. Since a majority was not achieved to reverse the decision, homosexuality remains omitted from the APA’s Diagnostic and Statistical manual.

Many in the scientific community have criticized the APA’s decision to remove homosexuality from the DSM IV, claiming it’s motives were more political than scientific. Dr. Ronald Bayer, author of the book, Homosexuality and American Psychiatry writes:

The entire process, from the first confrontation organized by gay demonstrators to the referendum demanded by orthodox psychiatrists, seemed to violate the most basic expectations about how questions of science should be resolved. Instead of being engaged in sober discussion of data, psychiatrists were swept up in a political controversy. The result was not a conclusion based on an approximation of the scientific truth as dictated by reason, but was instead an action demanded by the ideological temper of the times.15

Along these same lines, a recent radio documentary on the subject of homosexuality revealed that the President-elect of the APA in 1973, Dr. John P. Speigel, was a “closeted homosexual with a very particular agenda.”16

Some have exaggerated or misrepresented these studies in attempt to prove that homosexuality is genetic. Others insist that homosexuality is developed after birth as a response to one’s environment. The truth is that we have no conclusive replicable research to prove either conclusion. However, most researchers have come to the conclusion that sexual orientation is likely determined by a complex interaction between a person’s genetic make-up and their environment.

Even the American Psychological Association asserts that:

There are numerous theories about the origins of a person's sexual orientation; most scientists today agree that sexual orientation is most likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors. In most people, sexual orientation is shaped at an early age.17 (emphasis added).

And the American Psychiatric Association wrote:

Currently there is a renewed interest in searching for biological etiologies for homosexuality. However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality.18

Whatever the case, we know from the personal testimonies of thousands that homosexuality is a changeable condition. Stanton Jones, who is Chair of Psychology at Wheaton College states: “Every secular study of change has shown some success rate...”19

The Century of the self

Basically, the Frankfurt School believed that as long as an individual had the belief - or even the hope of belief - that his divine gift of reason could solve the problems facing society, then that society would never reach the state of hopelessness and alienation that they considered necessary to provoke socialist revolution. Their task, therefore, was as swiftly as possible to undermine the Judaeo-Christian legacy.

To do this they called for the most negative destructive criticism possible of every sphere of life which would be designed to de-stabilize society and bring down what they saw as the ‘oppressive’ order. Their policies, they hoped, would spread like a virus—‘continuing the work of the Western Marxists by other means’ as one of their members noted.To further the advance of their ‘quiet’ cultural revolution - but giving us no ideas about their plans for the future - the School recommended (among other things):

1. The creation of racism offenses.
2. Continual change to create confusion
3. The teaching of sex and homosexuality to children
4. The undermining of schools’ and teachers’ authority
5. Huge immigration to destroy identity
6. The promotion of excessive drinking
7. Emptying of churches
8. An unreliable legal system with bias against victims of crime
9. Dependency on the state or state benefits10. Control and dumbing down of media
11. Encouraging the breakdown of the family

One of the main ideas of the Frankfurt School was to exploit Freud’s idea of ‘pansexualism’ - the search for pleasure, the exploitation of the differences between the sexes, the overthrowing of traditional relationships between men and women.

To further their aims they would:

• attack the authority of the father, deny the specific roles of father and mother, and take away from families their rights as primary educators of their children.
• abolish differences in the education of boys and girls
• abolish all forms of male dominance - hence the presence of women in the armed forces
• declare women to be an ‘oppressed class’ and men as ‘oppressors’
• merging or reversing the sexes or sex roles;
• abolishing the family as we know it’

Munzenberg summed up the Frankfurt School’s long-term operation thus:

‘We will make the West so corrupt that it stinks.'

The School believed there were two types of revolution: (a) political and (b) cultural. Cultural revolution demolishes from within. ‘Modern forms of subjection are marked by mildness’.

They saw it as a long-term project and kept their sights clearly focused on the family, education, media, sex and popular culture.

Yuri Bezmenov was a defector KGB agent who was trained in subversion techniques. He explains the 4 basic steps to socially engineering entire generations into thinking and behaving the way those in power want them to. It's shocking because our nation has been transformed in the exact same way, and followed the exact same steps.

Bezmenov on demoralization in America

How To Brainwash A Nation

Spiddas, really? Did you honestly just copy and paste your whole bit about homosexuality and the DSM from Yahoo! Answers?

People, come on.. at least make some effort to get information from reliable sources.

Oh, btw, homosexuality was removed from the DSM after years of research from several different groups, including NIMH that repeatedly demonstrated that homosexuality did not fulfill the criteria for a disorder. The American Psychiatric Association, the World Health Organization and several other organizations across the world also removed it from their list of disorders after each organization also did their own extensive studies on homosexuality. That is, extensive, often longitudinal studies from many different researchers, many different organizations and many different countries all came to the same conclusion. But of course, that's all just a "gay conspiracy." Please feel free to look up these various organizations and the reasons (i.e. extensive studies) they each removed homosexuality from their list of disorders -- it will easy prove Spiddas and others who claim the same baseless facts wrong.

And seriously, Spiddas... I can't get over the fact that you actually copied and pasted that from Yahoo! Answers... are you even trying?

Actually, no, I did not get it from Yahoo Answers. I've never used them as a "source"...

Numerous "reputable" sites have it. {I'll let that be your homework.} And the yahoo site doesn't even appear to reference the source. And with both the long and short term track record of the WHO, most recently being the SARS-like warning, (where only two questionable cases were found), it just shows how sloppy things really are there... Then there's the last "swine flu" epidemic? Sorry! H1N1... {sarcasm}

"In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt {This includes government sanctioned NGOs}

The people on here who say the government shouldn't be involved in this type of legislation or regulation are probalby the same ones who didn't want the oversight of the financial industry that crashed the economy. The government has a real need to keep vultures from preying on society and not setting up phony industry that is nothing short of fraud. There will always be people who will lie,cheat,steal and defraud others to push an agenda or just plain line their own pockets. The government, the elected representitive of the people, should be there to prevent that from happening. There is little difference between those who cost the economy trillions selling worthless derivatives and those who set up a business claiming they convert someone from their orientation. Both are outright lies and fraud

Spiddas,

You'll that be her homework? Why should she make your case for you? You're the one claiming that, prove it yourself.

Oh wait, you can't.

Unfortunately, I can not post links.. but I encourage people to look up what Spiddas said. You'll see that word for word it is someone's answer on Yahoo! Answers.. beginning to end. I can't find it anywhere else and Spiddas clearly refuses to tell us where he/she got the information -- so apparently, Spiddas gets his/her information from unreliable sources like Yahoo! Answers -- thus, I wouldn't believe anything he/she says as it's clear he/she can't even determine what a real source is.

??? They made the case it was from Yahoo. What I used was not. Therefore they can look for/at the other sites. This way they can believe their own eyes rather than just take my word for it. More than enough was cited.

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." -- English Proverb

"Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you can get rid of him for a whole weekend." -- Anonymous

"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it." -- George Santayana

"It is impossible to make people understand their ignorance; for it requires knowledge to perceive it, and therefore he that can perceive it, hath it not." -- Jeremy Taylor, English prelate (1613 - 1667)

Really? Yahoo is the only one you could find? I did numerous searches for various phrases and had this come up in various forms well over 10,000 times. I find it hard to believe that no one else can find anything regarding it. If I get some free time today, I'll go back through my history and see what I can locate.

Spiddas,

Like I said, you can't. It's your position, the research and proof is on you to do. If you say there's more out there, then defend your position with it.

She doesn't have to make your case for you.

I bet there isn't anything preventing minors in Kalifornia from getting an abortion without parental consent though. Seems that would be as big or a bigger issue than this.

And let me make a broader point:

There is a wealth of research out there from many different disciplines, many different researchers, across many different countries that demonstrate that homosexuality is not a disorder nor a defect and that homosexuality is not inherently harmful to the individual or society.

You'll note that on the other side of the "debate", the anti-LGBT crowd supports their views by citing: the Bible, conspiracy theories, and debunked and discredited claims. If they had any facts to back up their claims, why would they have to resort to such non-credible sources? And that's when it becomes clear -- look around at the claims of anti-LGBT crowd (both here in the comments section, in other areas of the internet and in the real world) and you'll see that they have zero credible facts to back up their claims. None -- nothing based in research, nothing replicated, nothing but their religious beliefs and/or opinion. I mean, given how rabid some people in this crowd are, don't you think that if there were any credible facts to back up their claims they'd be shouting them from the rooftops? And yet, they don't. And that tells you more than anything that those facts don't exist. That this isn't a "debate" -- it's one side backed by science and evidence that has been replicated and extensively studied over the last 60 years and one side that spews prejudice, opinion, religious dogma and conspiracy theories because they have nothing else to back up what they say. To suggest that there are two equally valid sides to this "debate" is a false equivalency. There is no other side here, there is no intellectual debate to be had, because there are no credible facts against the side that supports the LGBT community.

Don't get me wrong -- I'd be glad to have an honest intellectual debate with someone has real, credible, replicated scientific evidence for their claims. In fact, if there were real credible evidence that homosexuality was a disorder and it was harmful to individuals and others, I would absolutely change my position on the matter. But I've been doing research on this for years. I've been having these "debates" for years -- and I have never come across any legtimate evidence that speaks to to that. And again -- if it were out there, don't you think the anti-LGBT community would be talking about that instead of their Bibles and their "gay conspiracy" theories?

I... really am sick of coming onto these forums and finding some manchild who found the internet screaming about how the gays are going to destroy the world. Strangely, I don't see anyone screaming "SODOM AND GOMORRAH!" when Texas kept bursting into flames, and they're the ones that are incredibly intolerant and try to hold themselves up as the great leader of traditional values and whatnot. Or when the other Bible Belt states got viciously wrecked by storms. Your rhetoric doesn't seem to go both ways. By what I've seen, God wants you to shut the heck up.

Gays aren't going to destroy the world. Politicians will be the one that herald the end of days, in all honesty. That or it'll be all of us fighting one another. Why do you people care about who's gay and not gay? What does it achieve you? Does it make you feel more superior about yourself or your sexuality? Are you so deep in the closet you're hitting your parents' Tie Dye shirts? I have really never gotten this, much less the psychological trama you try to put kids under.

You terrorize them with hellfire and brimstone, you tell them to hate themselves and be ashamed of themselves, then you wonder about the escalation in violence and suicide. Then again, it's not really about God at all, is it? It's about you trying to feel superior over someone else without actually being superior. You aren't smarter, faster, or stronger. You just hate a whole lot and try to get by on being this perfect little angel... but inciting violence and hatred towards others based on such things as their sexuality, not on their actual actions.

Actually, people like this may need to be studied. They might be the missing link, because you have to have the mental capacity of a screaming, hairy caveman to think, much less hate, with the sheer ferocity I've seen from some of the "Religious Right". Oh, and for those that are probably going to scream how much of a "bigot" I am, or how hateful I am: You're calling for the torture of children, you seek to terrorize them. I have absolutely no love in me for someone that would put a child through that, much less tell me that their invisible best friend told them to do it.

elliot - you really need to turn down your own hate and use your brain to think with instead of just spewing right wing extremism.

same bible that allows me to have slaves??? sure, give me my slaves and then we can start talking about the bible!

What's extreme is the government banning churches from promoting what the bible says.

I have no hate for gays, I don't care what you do with your life or your body and I don't expect anyone to care about what I do with mine.

"But now there will need to be legal consequences to those churches that do it anyway." The law is clear that it applies to those who are "State licensed". This would include, I presume, any church who hires a "state licensed" professional. As for the church itself, if they are operating on the basis of their religious beliefs and not using a state licensed therapist, the law does NOT apply. But anyone using a religious institution for this kind of thing should know better. Stupidity is stupidity and it works both ways. Don't walk into a place knowing it's going to try and convert you then act all shocked and offended when they actually try and do that.

The Bible exhorts slaves to be free. Don't twist it to fit your mistaken views.

I think people are losing sight of the fact that this does not ban "reparative therapy" (which is what these people like to think they are doing). It is simply saying that children cannot undergo it. It had been proven to be extremely damaging to the psyches of children and adolescents. It's not much different from the laws that prevent cosmetic procedures on minors--it simply prevents a dangerous procedure from being done on someone who is not in the position to make the decision for themselves and which may have long-standing negative consequences.

Ed Burke-3968875 - But now there will need to be legal consequences to those churches that do it anyway.

No, that would be a pretty blatant 1st Amendment violation.

This bill simply says that a state-licensed professional can't peddle this snake oil as medicine.

voiceontheleft - I think people are losing sight of the fact that this does not ban "reparative therapy" (which is what these people like to think they are doing). It is simply saying that children cannot undergo it.

It doesn't even do that, per se. It simply says that a state-licensed mental health provider can't perform this nonsense on minors.

Parents are still free to have Churches perform this psychological abuse on their children.

Here's the text:

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201120120SB1172

What's missing is an earlier provision which required informed consent for adults, so that they know the risks of such quackery.

Whether it's church or state, torture is wrong!! Trying to change someones identity IS TORTURE!! I don't care what a book says!! I don't care what any church says! Science disproves a GAY CURE!! You are born gay! The ignorance of some of you on this post is more than disturbing!! Christianity is more than a book or a building, it's what's in your heart! Hatred and bigotry are more of an offense to Jesus than being gay ever will!!!

Spoken by someone who is a Christian and who has two gay children!!! One son and one daughter, both gay. One daughter, straight, with 3 granddaughters. I would hurt anyone who tried to change their identity to fit their mold of what they think anyone should or should not be!! To all of you vile posters on here, mind your own business. How about that?

No, the churches can do what they want, and if you're fool enough to buy into it, I've got a bridge in New York I'll sell you.

Yetifeo, you are wrong again, as most so called christians are when it comes to the bible.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Yep, gotta love how christians are totally ignorant about what is in their bible and only PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT TO FOLLOW.

elliot-3020456 - What's extreme is the government banning churches from promoting what the bible says.

This bill doesn't do that.

Sounds like you're a bit clueless as to what the legislation actually does. Maybe you should read the bill?

elliot..."What's extreme is the government banning churches from promoting what the bible says."....

Or, one could say... "What's extreme is the gov't banning mosques from promoting what the koran says"....

I wouldn't say that, but you can see where that might be going. American Taliban didn't get their way - this time.

Theresa..sorry, but if you think homosexuality is OK, when God calls it an abomination, no, you are NOT a Christian. Plain and SIMPLE!!!!!!!!!

RTGSC, you must be a member of one of the bigoted cults like the Southern Baptists or Mormons.

Just an FYI, there are lots of Christians and Jews who don't share your homophobia. It's only your god who's a dumb bigot.

These children are not wards of the State; nor are they the property of the LGBT SS. Neither entity is capable of creating children naturally so why should they be afforded the the right to dictate how other peoples children are raised.

Tyranny is not the right approach when looking to win the hearts and minds of those opposed to your ideology. In their quest to create willing victims these heathen have come to the realization that the U.S. Constitution is not on their side so they must take matters in their own hands.

RandyEK - why should they be afforded the the right to dictate how other peoples children are raised.

The bill doesn't do that.

Maybe you should actually read the bill Randy so you'll be slightly less ignorant? I know that's asking a lot given your problems with reading comprehension.

RTGSC-Tell you what,you show me a heterosexual who actually chose to be that way-who actually said "I could be this way or that but I choose this way"- and I'll stop thinking gays are the way God made them and should be accepted as such.

skrekk -

The bill doesn't do that.

Maybe you should actually read the bill Randy so you'll be slightly less ignorant?

The LAW - no longer a Bill - takes away the parents right to take their children - their children; not the States, or the LGBT's - to a license therapist of their choice; a choice that is absolute under the United States Constitution.

Your blatant disinformation campaign in support of these perpatrators only makes you look worst than you already do by supporting theses tyrants in the first place.

Neither entity is capable of creating children naturally

How is that relevant, Randy? And what about the millions of heterosexuals who are incapable of "creating children naturally"?

millions of heterosexuals who are incapable of "creating children naturally"?

Already addressed by federal appellate courts as "nothing more than a theoretical abnormality..." Any moron can theorize about abnormalities, but a enlightened civilization does not base its laws on theoretical abnormalities.

Re-establishing the failed policies of Nero from antiquity does not a progressive make.

Actually, it has nothing to do with preventing parents from doing anything. What the law does is prevent state-licensed therapists from using techniques on children which are known to be harmful. Something that ethics boards and government laws about state-licensed therapy already do and is supposed to do. So, unless you have a problem with the fact that ethics boards exist and that there are laws preventing therapists from using other techniques which are known to be harmful, then your issue isn't really about "government power", is it? Your issue is that you believe therapists should be allowed to use harmful techniques on children because you happen to think that being homosexual is "wrong." So, how about some intellectual honesty here, people.

But go ahead. Tell me the government should have no say in what their medical and psychological professionals do. That there should be no ethics oversight to these professions. As soon as you do that, I'll believe this isn't just about your fear and/or hatred toward homosexuality and really about government power.

Bravo. Is there a therapeutic "cure" for parents who would believe that they can actually alter who their minor's they are in charge of are at their core genetically, rather than the reality of torturing them internally and shaming them? Even though banned within medical therapeutic confines, "conversion attempts" will surely continue via unlicensed zealots practicing quakery.

The perceived harms of said therapy is not deemed unhealthy for adults; only for other peoples children who are under the age of eighteen. If said therapies where "proved" to be harmful then they should be unlawful for any therapist to use said therapies on anyone irregardless the age of the patient.

The truth is that the decision to withhold said therapies from other peoples children under the age of eighteen is a political one; not a scientific one. A political position that is consistent with the "homosexual" indoctrination course work now being mandated by this very same legislature.

"Pay no attention to that man behind the green curtain" did not work on Dorthy either.

My how we have become brainwashed in such a short amount of time. There are some HUGE assumptions being treated as fact that have never, ever been proven. But if we folks just keep repeating them over and over, soon the little sheeples will intone with us: Gays are born that way..gays are born that way, gays are born that way...... They can't help it...they can't help it...they can't help it.

First of all, no one has ever proven conclusively that any sexual orientation is programmed in at birth. I SINCERELY hope that is wrong because if it was, there would be no hope for the pedophiles, sodomists, and manifold other kinky behavior that SO FAR, most of us still agree is abnormal. But, we reject this behavior and do so with the hope that perhaps some of these folks can stop and make better choices. WE ARE NOT DEFINED BY OUR SEXUAL APPETITES.

Having said that, we all have inner urges and desires to do things that are prohibited, either by society or God or both. We fight against the temptation to give in, most of the time. However, most of us have experienced the power our appetites have over us if we give in on a repetitive basis. At a certain point, we may give up fighting and say "I can't help it. I was born this way". This is human psychology and it applies in our sexual appetites as well as every other appetite.

My understanding of the Christian message is not that God hates us if we give in to the things that He says are prohibited. But rather, He is willing to give us the power to overcome the these things, because He can see bigger, farther and wider how they will destroy us, our families, our society. This goes for heterosexuals as well as homosexuals.

RandyEK,

Actually, it's been outlawed because these techniques have been shown to be harmful to children. If it were really about "politics" then why not outlaw it completely for both children and adults? If it's all a big political gay agenda conspiracy, why stop with just children? Oh, right.. your logic actually doesn't work when applied to your own arguments.

And again, I'm still waiting to here that the government and ethics boards should have no oversight in the practices of medical professionals nor any power to prevent them from violating those ethical standards -- particularly medical professions that the state itself licenses. If a state-licensed psychologists believes the proper treatment is to lock your kid up in a box and beat them, they should be allowed to right? Otherwise, that's government power being abused. Right?

Oh, Lisa, so much ignorance in one post, I don't know where to start.

US researchers find evidence that homosexuality linked to genetics

• McClatchy newspapers
• guardian.co.uk, Monday 1 December 2008 13.14 EST

Compared to straight men, gay men are more likely to be left-handed, to be the younger siblings of older brothers, and to have hair that whorls in a counterclockwise direction.

US researchers are finding common biological traits among gay men, feeding a growing consensus that sexual orientation is an inborn combination of genetic and environmental factors that largely decide a person's sexual attractions before they are born.

Such findings - including a highly anticipated study this winter - would further inform the debate over whether homosexuality is innate or a choice, an undercurrent of California's recent Proposition 8 campaign in which television commercials warned that "schools would begin teaching second-graders that boys could marry boys", suggesting homosexuality would then spread.

Some scientists say the political and moral debate over same-sex marriage frequently strayed from established scientific evidence, including comments by Republican vice-presidential candidate Sarah Palin that homosexuality is "a choice" and "a decision".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/01/homosexuality-genetics-usa

Homosexual behavior due to genetics and environmental factors
Published: Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 17:21 in Psychology & Sociology
Homosexual behaviour is largely shaped by genetics and random environmental factors, according to findings from the world's largest study of twins. Writing in the scientific journal Archives of Sexual Behavior, researchers from Queen Mary's School of Biological and Chemical Sciences, and Karolinska Institutet in Stockholm report that genetics and environmental factors (which are specific to an individual, and may include biological processes such as different hormone exposure in the womb), are important determinants of homosexual behaviour.

Dr Qazi Rahman, study co-author and a leading scientist on human sexual orientation, explains: "This study puts cold water on any concerns that we are looking for a single 'gay gene' or a single environmental variable which could be used to 'select out' homosexuality - the factors which influence sexual orientation are complex. And we are not simply talking about homosexuality here - heterosexual behaviour is also influenced by a mixture of genetic and environmental factors.

The team led by Dr Niklas Långström at Karolinska Institutet conducted the first truly population-based survey of all adult (20-47 years old) twins in Sweden. Studies of identical twins and non-identical, or fraternal, twins are often used to untangle the genetic and environmental factors responsible for a trait. While identical twins share all of their genes and their entire environment, fraternal twins share only half of their genes and their entire environment. Therefore, greater similarity in a trait between identical twins compared to fraternal twins shows that genetic factors are partly responsible for the trait.

This study looked at 3,826 same-gender twin pairs (7,652 individuals), who were asked about the total numbers of opposite sex and same sex partners they had ever had. The findings showed that 35 per cent of the differences between men in same-sex behaviour (that is, that some men have no same sex partners, and some have one or more) is accounted for by genetics.

http://esciencenews.com/articles/2008/06/28/homosexual.behavior.due.genetics.and.environmental.factors

BTW, Lisa, neither God nor the bible make our laws; we are a secular nation.

Siobhan27,

They cannot outlaw it for adults because it has not been proved harmful at all; it has been deemed potentially harmful by LGBT trade groups like the APA. The "ethics" board are appointed by activists with a political agenda; they are not elected officials that have to answer to we the people.

Psychology is a pseudo science with no basis in natural law; now step away from the Kool-Aid.

@Erin,

There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation. The APA

we are a secular nation.

Our nation is not based on your "secular" religion Erin.

For the sake of brevity, if you look into the other 50 State constitutions you will find:

32 reference "Almighty God"... 4 reference "Grateful to God.... 3 reference "Supreme Ruler".... 1 references Providence of God... 1 references "Divine Goodness .... 1 References " Supreme Being" ...1 references "Sovereign Ruler"... 1 references "Great Legislator"...1 references "Worship God. 1 references"Beneficence of God... 1 references "Author of Existence"...1 references "Creator"

This will be the best security for maintaining our liberties. A nation of well-informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins. Freedom is not a gift bestowed upon us by other men, but a right that belongs to us by the laws of God and nature.

Benjamin Franklin

Oh Lisa, "they will destroy us, our families and our societys.." etc. "they" have been here since the beginning of civilization and will always be a part of society. I really don't think they have an agenda to destroy our families and society nor would they be capable of doing that....they just want to live their lives in a tolerant peaceful and equal atmosphere I would think.

Your saying in all cap letters "we are not defined by our sexuality" or something to that effect....I think that is precisely what gay people are trying to say....stop defining them by their sexuality its really no big deal. We probably just don't perceive God in the same way, but thats for everyone to decide and voice their opinions. If an individual said they were both gay and christian the God I believe in would embrace them with open arms.

RandyEK,

Quantum mechanics isn't a real science either, it's all probability. And you are incorrect still. Psychology has been developed strictly through scientific research and extreme scrutiny. And the APA is an lgbt activist nest? I don't think so. Your credibility is officially zilch.

why is this Shrekk lady allowed to get away with all of her personal attacks? , I thought this "blog" had rules against that , who knew

RandyEK -

1) The law does not prohibit anyone from choosing the therapist of their choice, it prevents State Licensed therapists from performing this type of "therapy" on minors, get your facts straight.

2) This nation is not based on a secular religion, but neither is it based on Christian theology. The Constitution states that congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of religion(in case you didn't realized it, God is only established in religion, specifically theistic religions, and even more specifically since God is capitalized as a proper noun, mono-theistic religions). This nation is not based on religion, it is based on the rule of law.

RandyEK - The LAW - no longer a Bill - takes away the parents right to take their children - their children; not the States, or the LGBT's - to a license therapist of their choice; a choice that is absolute under the United States Constitution.

No, it doesn't do any of that.

And your understanding of the constitution still appears to be nil.

RandyEK,

Where exactly do you get the sense that the APA is an "LGBT trade group"? The American Psychological Association is essentially the head body of all psychological research and practice and has been for quite some time. Did "the gays" infiltrate it to pass along the "gay agenda"? Your conspiracy theories are about on the level with those who believe lizard people control the world.

Also, psychology is a psuedosience according to you, despite the fact that it uses the same scientific method, statistical analyses, peer-review processes etc. as other sciences? Sure. I'm going to take a stab in the dark here and guess your understanding of psychology is based in pop psychology blogs and maybe a "Psychology Today" you read while sitting in your doctor's office.

Also, if psychology is such a psuedoscience in your world beliefs, shouldn't you be in favor of getting rid of all therapy? After all, it's not real science. Oh wait, it's okay as a science as long as it's "converting those unnatural homosexuals" back into straight people right?

Randy, sorry buddy, but you've definitelty demonstrated that the only thing you believe is your own biased opinion. Scientists, empirical and peer-reviewed research, ethics boards, etc. are all just "psuedo-science" and "activism" to you, but whatever ideas you came up with while sitting around on your couch is "fact." I think that fundamentally undermines any credibility you might have had. You can't back up anything you say with facts, so instead you do a lot of arm-waving and conspiracy theorizing. Any facts that disagree with you are the product of "activists" and "psuedoscience." So, basically, you've created this lovely little cocoon for yourself in which you've convinced yourself that your opinions are facts, that you don't need any real facts to back up your opinion, and anything that goes against your opinion is just "made up by activists." I don't care what a person's opinion is, anyone who espouses that kind of way of thinking is not a person who cares about intellectual honesty, truth, or real answers. Rather,. individuals like that are only interested in confirming their own belief system.

When you're actually interested in discussing facts rather than just spewing your baseless opinion, then we can talk. Otherwise, you're wasting everyone's time here. If anyone else would like to discuss actual facts, I'd be glad to engage in honest, intellectual debate.

RT,

God hates scallops!!!

God hates cotton-poly blends!!!

I bet you still eat at Red Lobster and shop at Target though.

Siobhan27

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/former-president-of-apa-says-organization-controlled-by-gay-rights-movement/

There happens to be a plethora of evidence available in opposition to your ridiculous assertions; you just have to be willing to look beyond the wall of the Emerald City you are holed up in.

Patrick93

All of math is a theory; any 1st year college professor will tell you that. The disinformation campaign you folks are pimping will not hold up under passing scrutiny; let alone the strict scrutiny that protects that which shows your proclivity in its proper light.

Randy,

Thomas Jefferson

"But the greatest of all reformers of the depraved religion of his own country, was Jesus of Nazareth. Abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separable from that as the diamond from the dunghill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man. The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent morality, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture, which has resulted from artificial systems, invented by ultra-Christian sects (The immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity; original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders of the Hierarchy, etc.) is a most desirable object."
..........To W. Short, Oct. 31, 1819

"The Christian god is a three headed monster, cruel, vengeful, and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and state.
..........Letter to the Danbury Baptist Association, January 1, 1802

And

John Adams

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"
..........To F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
..........To Thomas Jefferson

"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine."
..........To John Taylor

And

James Madison

"Every new and successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance"
..........James Madison, 1822, Writings, 9:101

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history"
..........James Madison, undated, William and Mary Quarterly, 1946, 3:555

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

And...

Benjamin Franklin

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity."
..........Works, Vol. VII, p. 75

The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.
-- Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758

"As to Jesus of Nazareth...I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity."

Randy, that's not unbiased "evidence," but bible-babble.

Care to try again?

BTW, secularism is not a religion -- and the US is a SECULAR nation.

And the fact that many state constitutions mention deities means nothing; the US Constitution is the "supreme law of the land," and NO state can require any religious association or oath of its citizens or employees.

elliot-3020456

I know right, SIEG HEIL. They shouldn't even be allowed to read a bible that speaks against homosexuality.

No, obviously you do not. What you think you know about the RIGHT, is severely limited to what was inbred into you from your parents and what was washed into your apparently weak brain from the Liberal Lame Stream Media..... "Sieg Heil" to your indoctrination.

FWIW, Hitler detested homosexuals, despite laws that were enacted in the early 1890's which served to ease the harsh treatment and exclusion with which homosexuals were subjected to. You see, Hitler believed Homosexuality was counter productive to his idea and hard-belief in the Aryan race. And Hitler of course blamed the Jews for spreading homosexuality, which of course was BS to the degree that he believed, but not so much as you might think. To learn more, may I suggest you learn to read and self-educate..."Sieg Heil"

And don't go blaming the bible, out of your stupid ignorance and desire to hate all things Christian, just because it's counter to your beliefs, that would be Hitler-Like... "Sieg Heil"... and you wouldn't want me to call you Hitler, would you.

And least you forget (but probably don't even know) every rendition and every flavor of the Christian's bible speaks against homosexuality, as does the Torah, as does the Koran. "Sieg Heil""Sieg Heil""Sieg Heil".... But you can count your lucky stars that you're not an outspoken homosexual in a socialist dictatorship country like Iran "Sieg Heil", Saudi Arabia "Sieg Heil", Sudan "Sieg Heil", Yemen "Sieg Heil", Somalia "Sieg Heil", United Arab Emirates "Sieg Heil",..... if you were a practicing homosexual or even outspoken in favor of homosexuals in any of those, you'd have to do that without a head, because in those countries you'd be executed.

Now, how about we change the subject, and have you tell us Right Wingers just how much you support the Muslim brotherhood invasion into America, that you support their right to practice Syria law here, and that you want us Right Wingers to loose our 2nd Amendment guarantee to protect fools like you from losing your head when the going gets tough.

"Sieg Heil"... and don't forget, Hitler was a staunch advocate and enforcer of gun control.

Your friend and protector,

Righty

Sarah,

Patrick Henry

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." - Speech to the Virginia House of Burgesses, May, 1765

George Washington Thanksgiving Proclamation

Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me to “recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness”:

Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us.

And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions; to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have shown kindness to us), and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us; and, generally to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as He alone knows to be best.

Thomas Jefferson

God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?

Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord.

Gouverneur Morris Penmen of the United States Constitution

"Religion is the only solid basis of good morals. Therefore, education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man toward God"

John Adams

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Thomas Paine

The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labor with studied ingenuity to ascribe everything they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.

Abraham Lincoln

In regard to this Great Book, I have but to say, it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this book.

All of history stands in opposition to your ridiculous assertions. If you truly believed your depravity was acceptable you would not be working this hard to have declared to be that which it could never be.

Randy,

Really, ALL of history???

Your own quote pretty much sums it up...

Patrick Henry

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." - Speech to the Virginia House of Burgesses, May, 1765

You DO realize that there's a difference between having religion in your personal life, and promoting it in your state/nation, right??? That believing something DOESN'T give it AUTHORITY over others, right???

Reynolds v. United States , 98 U.S. 145 (1879)

Court finds that the federal antibigamy statute does not violate the First Amendment's guarantee of the free exercise of religion.

Everson v. Board of Education , 330 U.S. 1 (1947)

Court finds that a New Jersey law which included students of Catholic schools in reimbursements to parents who sent their children to school on buses operated by the public transportation system does not violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

McCollum v. Board of Education Dist. 71 , 333 U.S. 203 (1948)

Court finds religious instruction in public schools a violation of the establishment clause and therefore unconstitutional.

Burstyn v. Wilson , 72 S. Ct. 777 (1952)

Government may not censor a motion picture because it is offensive to religious beliefs.

Torcaso v. Watkins , 367 U.S. 488 (1961)

Court holds that the state of Maryland cannot require applicants for public office to swear that they believed in the existence of God. The court unanimously rules that a religious test violates the Establishment Clause.

Engel v. Vitale , 82 S. Ct. 1261 (1962)

Any kind of prayer, composed by public school districts, even nondenominational prayer, is unconstitutional government sponsorship of religion.

Abington School District v. Schempp , 374 U.S. 203 (1963)

Court finds Bible reading over school intercom unconstitutional and Murray v. Curlett, 374 U.S. 203 (1963) - Court finds forcing a child to participate in Bible reading and prayer unconstitutional.

Epperson v. Arkansas , 89 S. Ct. 266 (1968)

State statue banning teaching of evolution is unconstitutional. A state cannot alter any element in a course of study in order to promote a religious point of view. A state's attempt to hide behind a nonreligious motivation will not be given credence unless that state can show a secular reason as the foundation for its actions.

Lemon v. Kurtzman , 91 S. Ct. 2105 (1971)

Established the three part test for determining if an action of government violates First Amendment's separation of church and state:
1) the government action must have a secular purpose;
2) its primary purpose must not be to inhibit or to advance religion;
3) there must be no excessive entanglement between government and religion.

Stone v. Graham , 449 U.S. 39 (1980)

Court finds posting of the Ten Commandments in schools unconstitutional.

Wallace v. Jaffree , 105 S. Ct. 2479 (1985)

State's moment of silence at public school statute is unconstitutional where legislative record reveals that motivation for statute was the encouragement of prayer. Court majority silent on whether "pure" moment of silence scheme, with no bias in favor of prayer or any other mental process, would be constitutional.

Edwards v. Aquillard , 107 S. Ct. 2573 (1987)

Unconstitutional for state to require teaching of "creation science" in all instances in which evolution is taught. Statute had a clear religious motivation.

Allegheny County v. ACLU , 492 U.S. 573 (1989)

Court finds that a nativity scene displayed inside a government building violates the Establishment Clause.

Lee v. Weisman , 112 S. Ct. 2649 (1992)

Unconstitutional for a school district to provide any clergy to perform nondenominational prayer at elementary or secondary school graduation. It involves government sponsorship of worship. Court majority was particularly concerned about psychological coercion to which children, as opposed to adults, would be subjected, by having prayers that may violate their beliefs recited at their graduation ceremonies.

Church of Lukumi Babalu Ave., Inc. v. Hialeah , 113 S. Ct. 2217 (1993)

City's ban on killing animals for religious sacrifices, while allowing sport killing and hunting, was unconstitutional discrimination against the Santeria religion.

Now, please find me any GOVERNING document or PRIMARY LEGAL AUTHORITY that gives religion LEGAL or GOVERNING AUTHORITY or STANDING.

Now, please find me any GOVERNING document or PRIMARY LEGAL AUTHORITY that gives religion LEGAL or GOVERNING AUTHORITY or STANDING.

The first Amendment to the Bill of Rights which affords religion strict scrutiny protection; whereas sexual depravity is afforded the same rational basis review afforded all bottom feeders.

The three class' afforded immutability recognition under the U.S. Constitution, in order of importance:

1. Religion
2. Race
3. Gender

Masturbating against like gendered companions does not even warrant an honorable mention.

Randy,

Your 1st Amendment has a little something called the ESTABLISHMENT CLAUSE.

See...

McCollum v. Board of Education Dist. 71 , 333 U.S. 203 (1948)

Court finds religious instruction in public schools a violation of the establishment clause and therefore unconstitutional.

Burstyn v. Wilson , 72 S. Ct. 777 (1952)

Government may not censor a motion picture because it is offensive to religious beliefs.

Torcaso v. Watkins , 367 U.S. 488 (1961)

Court holds that the state of Maryland cannot require applicants for public office to swear that they believed in the existence of God. The court unanimously rules that a religious test violates the Establishment Clause.

Engel v. Vitale , 82 S. Ct. 1261 (1962)

Any kind of prayer, composed by public school districts, even nondenominational prayer, is unconstitutional government sponsorship of religion.

Abington School District v. Schempp , 374 U.S. 203 (1963)

Court finds Bible reading over school intercom unconstitutional and Murray v. Curlett, 374 U.S. 203 (1963) - Court finds forcing a child to participate in Bible reading and prayer unconstitutional.

Epperson v. Arkansas , 89 S. Ct. 266 (1968)

State statue banning teaching of evolution is unconstitutional. A state cannot alter any element in a course of study in order to promote a religious point of view. A state's attempt to hide behind a nonreligious motivation will not be given credence unless that state can show a secular reason as the foundation for its actions.

Lemon v. Kurtzman , 91 S. Ct. 2105 (1971)

Established the three part test for determining if an action of government violates First Amendment's separation of church and state:
1) the government action must have a secular purpose;
2) its primary purpose must not be to inhibit or to advance religion;
3) there must be no excessive entanglement between government and religion.

Stone v. Graham , 449 U.S. 39 (1980)

Court finds posting of the Ten Commandments in schools unconstitutional.

Wallace v. Jaffree , 105 S. Ct. 2479 (1985)

State's moment of silence at public school statute is unconstitutional where legislative record reveals that motivation for statute was the encouragement of prayer. Court majority silent on whether "pure" moment of silence scheme, with no bias in favor of prayer or any other mental process, would be constitutional.

Edwards v. Aquillard , 107 S. Ct. 2573 (1987)

Unconstitutional for state to require teaching of "creation science" in all instances in which evolution is taught. Statute had a clear religious motivation.

Allegheny County v. ACLU , 492 U.S. 573 (1989)

Court finds that a nativity scene displayed inside a government building violates the Establishment Clause.

Lee v. Weisman , 112 S. Ct. 2649 (1992)

Unconstitutional for a school district to provide any clergy to perform nondenominational prayer at elementary or secondary school graduation. It involves government sponsorship of worship. Court majority was particularly concerned about psychological coercion to which children, as opposed to adults, would be subjected, by having prayers that may violate their beliefs recited at their graduation ceremonies.

So, that 1st Amendment, is what decrees religion HAS NO legal or governing standing. You can practice it, but you CAN'T govern with it.

Furthermore, homosexual activity, any consensual sexual activity is protected under the 9th Amendment, and the IMPLIED RIGHT TO PRIVACY.

You see, we have many more protections, then just those regarding our religion, race, or gender.

So...

Masturbating against like gendered companions does not even warrant an honorable mention.

Unless you're doing it in public, it SURE ENOUGH DOES.

So try again. The 1st Amendment as an authority for state sanctioned religion, quite clearly, FAILS.

Each case study came over one hundred years after the fact by the first liberal dominated court beginning in the early 1950's. All of societies current Ill's can be attributed to these opinions of appointed attorneys legislating from the bench - you conveniently left out those cases that contradict your assertions.

The 1st Amendment establishes religions governing standing in that it forbids government involvement in religion by recognizing it as immutable. The sexual depravity you pimp does not even warrant an honorable mention; to the extent that it was a criminal offense up until the early 1970's throughout most of the United States.

The 9th Amendment does not trump the 1st Amendment; and would not exist if there were not a 1st in the first place.

Freedom of religion trumps the State and is protected by the laws of nature and natures God.

You are looking for excuses and you are obviously finding it harder to convince yourself that your sense of guilt is not manifested from within.

Randy,

Each case study came over one hundred years after the fact by the first liberal dominated court beginning in the early 1950's

Your opinion of the ideological leaning of any given court, gives your opinion standing, because???

All of societies current Ill's can be attributed to these opinions of appointed attorneys legislating from the bench

Please, show me some CREDIBLE STATISTICAL evidence of that, which also has legal authority.

you conveniently left out those cases that contradict your assertions.

Which are? And of course any you may post, are still good law, right? If I were to look them up in Shepard's, they'd still have standing?

The 1st Amendment establishes religions governing standing in that it forbids government involvement in religion by recognizing it as immutable

Oh my God, you got something right! So please show how homosexuality, violates that premise. Of course, using credible evidence and law in good standing as your authority.

The sexual depravity you pimp does not even warrant an honorable mention; to the extent that it was a criminal offense up until the early 1970's throughout most of the United States.

Did you miss the word, "until" in there? News flash, it's AFTER 1970.

The 9th Amendment does not trump the 1st Amendment; and would not exist if there were not a 1st in the first place.

Authority, in good legal standing for that?

Freedom of religion trumps the State and is protected by the laws of nature and natures God.

Because??? Because you say so??? Where's your authority? Oh, and by the way, until you answer the rest of those questions, the laws of nature and nature's God, still have no standing.

I noticed you didn't provide a single defense or case, with any authority, other then your say so. And, your "say so" is not a legal or governing authority.

JUST LIKE YOUR RELIGION.

@Patrick93:

Quantum mechanics isn't a real science either, it's all probability

The quantum mechanics is a real science. Nuclear physics, superconductivity and superfluidity, chemical properties of atoms, photoelectric emission (which gave Einstein a Nobel), physics of semiconductors, lasers are all based on quantum mechanics. Without quantum mechanics, the modern industry couldn't exist.

Alex,

Haven't you heard??? Math has a liberal bias, now.

Sarah is my new hero. Awesome, awesome, awesome.

Randy EK,

Where is this plethora of evidence? Also, where are you getting this evidence from? According to you, psychology is psuedoscience -- so, I hope you're not about to cite some psychological studies for me. Or is it not psuedoscience when it supports your worldview? Either way, I'm dying to see this plethora of evidence that you speak of.

The problem with people who make claims like the former APA president is that they want to support reparative therapy for those who wants to no longer be gay without ever questioning why there should be reparative therapy. Homosexuality does not fall under APA's guidelines (the same guidelines they had before the so-called "gay takeover", btw) of what constitutes a mental disease, disorder, or psychological problem. So why exactly does one need reparative therapy? What exactly is there to repair? Even if this therapy did work on rare occasion-- which is what this former APA president is trying to support -- there is still no legitimate reason for it's existence. Not to mention, he and others who have supported gay therapy have been repeatedly lambasted for ignoring the mounds of evidence suggesting that it does harm to more patients than it does "reform" anyone. Thus, if homosexuality is not a disease, does not fall under APA's guidelines of a disorder, and the therapy for this non-disorder ends up harming more individuals than it "helps" -- exactly why would anyone advocate for it? Unless, of course, they believe that on some level homosexuality should be repaired.

I also look forward to all those who will jump in to claim that it should be the person's choice to decide whether or not they want this therapy. So let me address that right now. Where is the therapy for people who are heterosexual who want to become homosexual? Why is that not being offered? And if it were, would you suggest that it would be a person's choice to engage it? I'm going to guess no. Instead, you'd call it "indoctrination" and claim that anyone who undergoes therapy to change from heterosexual to homosexual is only doing so because someone coerced them into it. Of course, I'm sure you won't call therapy that changes homosexual individuals into heterosexual individuals "indoctrination" and I'm sure you wouldn't suggest that anyone coerced them into it -- in that case it's a choice, right? I mean, even despite the fact that there's heavy pressure to not be LGBT from our society, people are bullied and beat up for identifying as LGBT, and religious organizations constantly tell people that LGBT individuals are going to hell. But, I'm sure you won't define any of that as coercion. Funny how that works.

Again, you make clear that you have only one view and scramble to justify it. It's clear that you use logic that applies one way, but as soon as that same logic is applied to your argument, that logic is no longer valid. You make clear that you only use evidence that supports your worldview, while ignoring the mounds, upon mounds, upon mounds of evidence that argue against it. But again, I'm totally sure one person's opinion is worth way more than many studies, replications and peer-reviewed articles out there. Because all of that stuff is a gay conspiracy, and that one person who disagrees? He's a righetous martyr fighting the conspiracy theorists and the "gay agenda." Not some crackpot. No, no, that one dude or handful of people with shotty evidence for a therapy that does more harm than good are TOTALLY more credible than the mounds of research out there against it Especially when they agree with what you already believe.

The three class' afforded immutability recognition under the U.S. Constitution, in order of importance:

1. Religion
2. Race
3. Gender

The Constitution does not state that religion is immutable, Randy, and neither have the courts ever found it to be so, because religion is not immutable, while race, gender, and sexual orientation are.

BTW, you keep listing that "quote" of Patrick Henry's, but he never said or wrote that -- it was taken from something written about him, but he never said or wrote those words.

What I'm having a hard time understanding is this: What does it matter if it's a chosen 'lifestyle' or an inborn characteristic? As an American do I not have the right to live my life the way I choose as long as I don't harm or potentially harm anyone? If two consenting adults choose to get married, have sex, or live together how can we as a free nation decide that their rights to live their lives the way they choose is over ridden by another person's religious beliefs?

Because without the religious part of it what reason is there for being against homosexuality?

BJ-3577476 - Because without the religious part of it what reason is there for being against homosexuality?

There simply isn't any.

"I'm thankful that at least one state has the sense to ban brainwashing and torture of children by religious zealots."

It has banned nothing of the sort. It has banned "State Licensed" therapists from trying to "cure" gay. It does not ban churches from doing their own thing so long as they don't seek to become "state licensed".

I forgot, the Constitution is a "living document" to be used or ignored as liberals prefer!

That's because it was written by liberals for a society that would be liberated from the constraints of conservative thinking. The US was founded on liberal ideas...liberal and liberty have the same root as words, both refer to freedom...something bigots are always trying to claim for themselves while repressing it in others.

And replaced it with an even worse method of brainwashing and torture by passing this. children are still undeveloped beings that need nurturing. by passing this they remove the choices they can be presented with and tell them it's ok to be gay and do not present anymore options like being heterosexual.

If you haven't noticed that there's an "alternative" to being gay, then you aren't paying much attention. It's on TV, radio, advertisements, and shoved down the throats of every person who takes four steps outside of their house that the bulk of the population is straight and expects that everyone else should be as well. I think telling licensed professionals that they aren't allowed to torture it out of the few teens who are confident enough in their identity to buck the trends of an already abusive society is at least a small step in the right direction.

dan...."general nastiness to anything which doesn't follow the "humanistic" agenda of today's "more enlightened"... oh well, god forbid that our children grow up to be Humanists and Enlightened, above the fray of the narrow minded and uneducated ignoramuses who cannot think for themselves beyond what their "mullahs" TELL them to think.
What? Can't afford to put your kiddies in a private church run school? Do they question your attitudes about "others" not like them? Best tell your kids to stay in school and listen to their teachers - maybe they'll be able to get an advanced education and rise out of the poor economic situation you've left them in.

Dan, we in public education are forced to spend most of our time undoing the damage caused by parents like you and Anon-FL. For example, we have to present your children with FACTS instead of rhetoric you've pulled from your bible or the encyclopedia of your ass (which is nearly the same thing).

ErinNJ that's quite an arrogant statement. You put yourself above the rest of us as the only one who knows the "truth". But it is not your job to impart your prejudices or undo the ideals that parents teach their kids simple because you don't agree. You don't even know what you don't know.

The children you teach are our children, not yours, not children of the state--at least, not yet. However, I can see from the ideas on this thread that we are only a stone's throw away from the same kind of thinking that allowed the Stalins, Hitlers, Mao's ---yes, and the Popes--of the world to police people's thoughts and ideas, and deny them rights or perhaps even jail them for not accepting their world view. How long will it be before churches will be required to be state licensed for some bogus reason, and come under authority of the state thought police? That's exactly what happened in the tyrannies mentioned above. It will happen here and the issue of homosexuality will be the trigger. This is not true liberality of thinking. Not at all.

that's quite an arrogant statement.

"Arrogant" to those like you, who spread misinformation and lies -- even to your own children. We teach based on factual data, not, as I said, based on our own "prejudices" or "ideals". We are not there to reinforce your "prejudices" and "ideals;" we are there to educate your children -- which means giving them facts, not lies, and not religious rhetoric. And since your children are interacting with other children whose parents have probably taught them something different from your own limited worldview, we must make sure that they can all get along and interact together without those "prejudices" and "ideals" coming into play.

Furthermore, since you have no idea of the things that occur in the course of the school day, and what children say and do to each other that clearly have been instilled in them by their parents, it would behoove you to STFU.

I know that there is much I have to learn -- but apparently you have a lot more to learn.

The proportion of homosexuals in the human population has remained at a steady 8.7-9.0% recorded over the last 30 years. Gays will never outpopulate the world. But, they do serve a purpose to keep the planet from being overpopulated by trailerpark trash (only the rush limbaugh nuts with 4+ kids, not all trailer inhabitants) without the brains to realize they can't reasonably raise a family.

As a California resident, it would be nice if the lawmakers here would actually spend time on something that really matters.

Dan,

First, home school your kid, for jebus sake, if it bugs you that much. And, before you go on anymore about the Constitution and founding fathers, yada, yada, yada...

Take a look at this -

Thomas Jefferson

"But the greatest of all reformers of the depraved religion of his own country, was Jesus of Nazareth. Abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separable from that as the diamond from the dunghill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man. The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent morality, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture, which has resulted from artificial systems, invented by ultra-Christian sects (The immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity; original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders of the Hierarchy, etc.) is a most desirable object."
..........To W. Short, Oct. 31, 1819

"The Christian god is a three headed monster, cruel, vengeful, and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and state.
..........Letter to the Danbury Baptist Association, January 1, 1802

And

John Adams

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"
..........To F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
..........To Thomas Jefferson

"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine."
..........To John Taylor

And

James Madison

"Every new and successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance"
..........James Madison, 1822, Writings, 9:101

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history"
..........James Madison, undated, William and Mary Quarterly, 1946, 3:555

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

Now, you do understand that having religion in your personal life, doesn't necessarily mean that you want it in your government, right?

For that, please see these...

Reynolds v. United States , 98 U.S. 145 (1879)

Court finds that the federal antibigamy statute does not violate the First Amendment's guarantee of the free exercise of religion.

Everson v. Board of Education , 330 U.S. 1 (1947)

Court finds that a New Jersey law which included students of Catholic schools in reimbursements to parents who sent their children to school on buses operated by the public transportation system does not violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

McCollum v. Board of Education Dist. 71 , 333 U.S. 203 (1948)

Court finds religious instruction in public schools a violation of the establishment clause and therefore unconstitutional.

Burstyn v. Wilson , 72 S. Ct. 777 (1952)

Government may not censor a motion picture because it is offensive to religious beliefs.

Torcaso v. Watkins , 367 U.S. 488 (1961)

Court holds that the state of Maryland cannot require applicants for public office to swear that they believed in the existence of God. The court unanimously rules that a religious test violates the Establishment Clause.

Engel v. Vitale , 82 S. Ct. 1261 (1962)

Any kind of prayer, composed by public school districts, even nondenominational prayer, is unconstitutional government sponsorship of religion.

Abington School District v. Schempp , 374 U.S. 203 (1963)

Court finds Bible reading over school intercom unconstitutional and Murray v. Curlett, 374 U.S. 203 (1963) - Court finds forcing a child to participate in Bible reading and prayer unconstitutional.

Epperson v. Arkansas , 89 S. Ct. 266 (1968)

State statue banning teaching of evolution is unconstitutional. A state cannot alter any element in a course of study in order to promote a religious point of view. A state's attempt to hide behind a nonreligious motivation will not be given credence unless that state can show a secular reason as the foundation for its actions.

Lemon v. Kurtzman , 91 S. Ct. 2105 (1971)

Established the three part test for determining if an action of government violates First Amendment's separation of church and state:
1) the government action must have a secular purpose;
2) its primary purpose must not be to inhibit or to advance religion;
3) there must be no excessive entanglement between government and religion.

Stone v. Graham , 449 U.S. 39 (1980)

Court finds posting of the Ten Commandments in schools unconstitutional.

Wallace v. Jaffree , 105 S. Ct. 2479 (1985)

State's moment of silence at public school statute is unconstitutional where legislative record reveals that motivation for statute was the encouragement of prayer. Court majority silent on whether "pure" moment of silence scheme, with no bias in favor of prayer or any other mental process, would be constitutional.

Edwards v. Aquillard , 107 S. Ct. 2573 (1987)

Unconstitutional for state to require teaching of "creation science" in all instances in which evolution is taught. Statute had a clear religious motivation.

Allegheny County v. ACLU , 492 U.S. 573 (1989)

Court finds that a nativity scene displayed inside a government building violates the Establishment Clause.

Lee v. Weisman , 112 S. Ct. 2649 (1992)

Unconstitutional for a school district to provide any clergy to perform nondenominational prayer at elementary or secondary school graduation. It involves government sponsorship of worship. Court majority was particularly concerned about psychological coercion to which children, as opposed to adults, would be subjected, by having prayers that may violate their beliefs recited at their graduation ceremonies.

Church of Lukumi Babalu Ave., Inc. v. Hialeah , 113 S. Ct. 2217 (1993)

City's ban on killing animals for religious sacrifices, while allowing sport killing and hunting, was unconstitutional discrimination against the Santeria religion.

That's why.

Children under the age of 18 are growing, changing,learning etc.. every minute of evry day. At a young age they shouldn't even be worrying about what their sexual preference is. What a kid wants at 9, 12, 15, 17, 18 is changing constantly.Then it's changes as we become adults as well!!! I don't see anything wrong with a parent seeking appropriate counseling when and if a child is having difficulties even if it's about their sexual orientation. YOU don't to determine that you are or are not gay at 15 years old just like you don't have to determine what you'll major in at college, if you'll even go to college, what religion you'll be, what type of person you'll want as your partner for life etc.. etc.. Some kids honestly do believe they know exactly what their orientation is at a young age, others are experimenting, doing this or that because it's cool, the popular kids do this etc. etc.. Don't think it's EVER cut and dried, written in stone etc.. what we think, feel, or want to do with our lives at any age. Just the other day an old friend who'd been married, had 2 kids, divorced, dated the opposite sex for years after and never thought they were gay met somebody of the same sex and realized that they loved this person. This friend was pretty shocked by their own feelings!!! Can't say I understand why a person has those feelings for the same sex, but I acknowledge that my friends feelings are real and except them. Don't think we need government legislating or dictating these kinds of things!!!!!!

Tom! Well said!

my favorite quote...Jesus thinks your a jerk... ZAPPA...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixHujoSAC3k

Plain Bob,

Now THAT is awesome.

Sarah you are a insult to the atheist elite. Nice cut and paste of..........something unrelated to the thread. Um, that's why what. Why you failed debate? You, shrek and boob and good examples of why agnostic fotter is like water dripping. Annoying and predictable. Cut and paste your own thoughts.

Southern,

Well, considering this article is about LAW, as is all of gay RIGHTS, according to our NATION'S GOVERNING DOCUMENTS, our "own" thoughts don't have any authority.

Like my own thoughts, on how Dan's diatribe was ridiculous, don't give me or the government any legal authority to tell him WHY, WHAT, HOW, WHO, WHEN, or WHERE our system and laws work, or WHAT HE CAN/CAN'T DO.

However, supreme court cases, defining the separation of church and state, which are applicable to this issue, DO.

That's the problem, with you anti-equality folks, you rely on your PERSONAL BELIEFS and ASSERTIONS, to dictate to other's. Your personal beliefs and assertions, just like mine, DON'T GIVE YOU, OR THE GOVERNMENT, ANY AUTHORITY OVER THE REST OF US.

That's like Civics 101.

See #5.1 above.

You've been reading too many James Dobson books Wayne. I've been hearing about California dropping off into the ocean from my old granny since I was a wee one back in the 70's. It hasn't happened yet because it's not gonna happen.

And "God" said to love everyone. At least I can swim

Hey Wayne. Could you be any more of a sheep?

wayne, judge not lest ye be judged.

God is mocked every day...in fact, I'll mock "him" now. Hey God, nice job on the religious war thing...no amount of bloodshed too great for your son, eh? Done. Now I'm on the east coast...should I prepare for the Carolinas to drop into the ocean?

shouldn't it already be there Wayne - after all Cali's got lots a fags and dykes already. Or does your God just use hurricanes and terrorist attacks to punish gueers.

I love those that are so wrapped up in thier religion that they cannot see the following:

1) There are other sets of religious beliefs that thier own.

2) Other Religious beliefs do not necessarily align with thiers

3) That other religious beliefs have the right to exist

4) Other religious beliefs have the right to NOT be prevented by laws created to make your religious rights supreme over all others

5) Your interpretation of God is not the only one, nor is it the only one allowed

6) The US Constitution (and all State Constitutions) do not allow religious beliefs to be forced upon others. That includes forcing YOUR religious beliefs onto others AND that includes you not being allowed to prevent others from freely excersizing thier religious beliefs.

So - in other words, you cannot force us to follow your beliefs, and when a religious belief conflicts with the Constitution, your religious belief cannot be made into law. Nor can your religious belief be used to create harm to others - particularly to children.

There is no scientific proof that 'gay cure' therapy causes no harm to children. If an ADULT willingingly decides to go through 'gay cure' therapy, so be it, but your religion does not give you the right to harm CHILDREN.

My personal belief is that because we are born with our sexual preferences pre-determined, and many people are born gay, it is not our right to force change into those who happen to be born gay.

Hell, they used to burn or cast out left handed people (like me) because 'they were considered possessed by the devil. All based on some nitwit's interpretation of the Bible. Could it be that treating gays in similar manners is also based on some nitwit's interpretation?

Hell, they used to burn or cast out left handed people (like me) because

Homosexuals tend to be left-handed.

God is not mocked! All of us little ants think we understand things and are so big! Yes the Carolina's could also "fall into the ocean"!

Regarding the new law, I am appalled that we keep on buying into the big brother government concept. This law clearly steps on the rights of PARENTS! Defining "psychological harm" is a very slippery slope, so it should be up to the parents, not Big Brother Jerry to decide how to raise their children. For churches, it is possible that a pastor is also a licensed therapist, so this clearly steps on freedom of religion.

I see this whole thing as Man always wanting to do it his way, rather than God's way. I do not hate gays, have had Lesbian employees, etc., but the Bible is very clear that homosexuality is an abomination and will be judged! At the same time, arrogant righteousness is not OK, as we all fall short of the glory of God and all will be judged unless we ask Jesus into our lives to forgive us in God's sight. We must love one another, be patient we each other, but should not condone that which is pulling us farther from knowing God (homosexuality, greed, selfishness, drugs, etc., etc.....).

Larry2222 - God is not mocked!

It seems that your imaginary friend is rather easily mocked, and completely impotent.

It also sounds like he's a bit psychologically insecure if he's worried about being mocked.

Larry, we wouldn't need all these "big brother" laws if everyone like you would grow up.

Well said FormerMarineSgt. I couldn't have said it better myself.

@Larry, you think defining psychological harm should be up to the parents? Ok, so I guess if the child complains about the therapy, or gets angry and resentful and has issues caused by it, their parents can either acknowledge that...or they can disregard it, and blow it off...like most parents would do.

Wasn't the young man, Ryan's story, enough to tell you that this sort of thing DOES harm children?

When parents take their kids to psychiatrists/therapists to "cure" them of their homosexuality, those children do not feel accepted for who they are, they do not feel loved for who they are, they do not feel supported in their choices. They do not feel good enough for their families. And those kinds of feelings are to be expected when you tell a gay child that something is "wrong" with them, that they are "perverted", that they are "abnormal"....and being treated that way is the LAST thing that ANY adolescent needs, gay OR straight!

Now, on the other hand, I wonder how well LGBT adolescents feel when their parents DO accept them, and try to be UNDERSTANDING, and gradually accept that their child is gay? I'm sure those ones have MUCH less anger, resentment, and issues then the teens whose parents tried to change them to fit into society's mold.

But I'm wasting my time. I'm not going to change your mind, Larry.

I'll just say that I think it's pretty pathetic that it's the 21st century and we STILL cannot get past this idea that there is a "thing" or "being" out there that watches us 24/7, remembers all of our wrongdoings, and will throw us into the fire if we don't live up to its expectations. What did George Carlin say about religion? I'm not gonna retype all that here, go on YouTube. And while you're there, you can also watch the videos that teens have made...teens that have been through that kind of "therapy".

So Wayne,you saying that if Cali falls off innocent people won't be hurt as well? That what your "god" does?

Hi Larry,

So if a parent decides that he would rather have a daughter than a son, that parent can force their child to undergo a sex change?

Wow! Enough with the parents' rights stuff already. The article is simply saying that quackery cannot be presented as legitimate practice. If something is "proven" to be harmful, say "bloodletting", or starvation, or beating, then it should not be presented as legitimate.

Perhaps there are well meaning (though ignorant) parents out there who might stop and think, if they are made aware that these "therapies" are snake oil.

Wayne,

I have a feeling God is thick skinned enough to handle a little mocking. After all, look at the Platypus. In fact, I bet he mocks Himself, for all the stupid @!$%# his "followers" come up with.

This law clearly steps on the rights of PARENTS!

Where does it say that parents have rights to mold their children in anyway they like? Parents do not own their children, they are custodians. I would venture that parents trying to forge a particular sexual orientation on their children are guilty of a type of child abuse.

culheath - Where does it say that parents have rights to mold their children in anyway they like?

It'll depend on the family laws of a particular state but every state grants a very wide berth to parental rights especially when religion is involved (ie, medical decisions even when it involves risk to life).

That's unfortunate but that's where we're still at as a society.

skrekk,

That's unfortunate but that's where we're still at as a society.

Yeah, I know...my question was meant to be somewhat rhetorical.

I agree with the Kahlil Gibran "On Children" poem offered by Peter Jacobs in his #1.77 post.