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Courtesy of the Andresen family
Ryan Andresen with his father Eric Andresen, 52. Ryan Andresen had completed the requirements to earn his Eagle Scout award, but his his father, Eric, said the Scoutmaster told him his son wouldn't get it because he recently came out as gay. The Boy Scouts of America said Andresen was no longer eligible for membership in Scouting because of his sexual orientation and since he does not agree to the BSA's principle of "Duty to God."
Updated at 10:00 p.m. ET, Tuesday -- Matthew Kimball walked away from the Boy Scouts in 2005.
Since he was gay, Kimball knew that his sexual orientation would be at odds with the Boy Scouts of America’s policy banning gay Scouts and leaders. Kimball was both: an Eagle Scout and an assistant Scoutmaster.
Kimball had not revealed his sexual orientation during his Scouting years. But he decided, like a number of other gay Scouts, that he could no longer stay publicly quiet about the organization’s membership policy after learning that Ryan Andresen, a teen from his own Troop 212 in Moraga, Calif., had been denied the Eagle rank last week because he is gay.
“My immediate reaction was frustration with myself, because I felt if I had done what this kid did … he wouldn’t have to be going through this, hopefully,” said Kimball, referring to Andresen’s coming out in July to his troop in a letter.
Kimball has called on other Eagle Scouts to give their pins to Andresen after the teen’s story emerged last week. “I never thought I’d ever come out in an explicit way ever,” Kimball, who was leaving Scouting as Andresen was joining the troop, told NBC News late Monday. “But I just felt like I had to.”
Courtesy of Matthew Kimball
The Eagle portrait of Matthew Kimball when he was 17 years old. Another version of It hangs in the Troop 212 hut in Moraga, Calif. Kimball left the Boy Scouts in 2005 without revealing that he is gay. He stepped forward, like a number of other gay Eagle Scouts, to back Ryan Andresen's bid to earn the Boy Scouts highest rank. Andresen was denied the Eagle award because he is gay.
Andresen, 18, had completed the requirements to earn the Scouts’ highest honor, but his Scoutmaster would not sign off on the award because he is gay, his mother said. The Scoutmaster has not replied to emails or a phone call seeking comment.
Kimball, a technology entrepreneur in San Francisco, said he has received up to 170 pledges of pins from Eagle Scouts, including about 48 from Troop 212 alumni. Scouts for Equality said last week that some 300 Eagle Scouts had returned their regalia in protest to the Boy Scouts since the organization announced in July that it had re-affirmed its membership policy after a confidential, two-year review.
But many other Eagle Scouts have said they agreed with the policy.
“The BSA's stance on this policy, along with the policy that you must subscribe to a belief in a higher being have both come under attack over the past few years,” Scott Prater, a 45-year-old unit commissioner in the Chattahoochee District for the Boy Scouts’ Northeast Georgia Council, said last week in an email to NBC News. “Anyone who desires to sign up as a member, either as a boy, or as an adult, must read and sign a statement to the fact that they understand and agree to abide by those principles. If you knowingly sign that you agree to those principles and have no intent on abiding by the rules, then you shouldn't expect to get special consideration.”
A spokesman for the Boy Scouts of America, Deron Smith, said 50,000 Scouts earn the Eagle rank every year, and in August noted that a “few” had returned their medals, badges or certificates since the membership policy announcement. On Tuesday, he said he didn’t have an update on numbers of regalia returned, but noted such items were either kept at the national office or stored in the National Scouting Museum. He also said Scouting ranks, such as the Eagle Scout, represent a past achievement and the BSA did not revoke them once they were awarded.
Most of the Scouts pledging their pins were heterosexual, Kimball said, though a number of gay Eagle Scouts made similar offers in emails sent to NBC News since hearing of Andresen’s story. One of those was Eric-Richard de Lora, an adviser to the Gay-Lesbian Union that Andresen and others founded at his high school in Berkeley, Calif., this fall.
De Lora, 53, said he considered returning his Eagle in 1997 after coming out but felt strongly that he had earned it and decided to keep it. He also thought about returning it in 2000, when the U.S. Supreme Court sided with the Boy Scouts on the anti-gay membership policy.
“Ultimately I held on to the award believing that it might someday serve a useful purpose,” said de Lora, a teacher at Maybeck High School.
Courtesy of the Andresen family
Ryan Andresen stands in front of a "tolerance wall," his final Boy Scouts' project that he worked on with school children at his former middle school. It consists of 288 tiles that depict acts of kindness.
That day appeared to come after Andresen informed de Lora last Monday about what was happening with his Eagle bid. Andresen, de Lora wrote, had completed the requirements for the Eagle, including building a “tolerance wall” for victims of bullying such as himself.
“This week I have finally decided that the best use of my award, short of giving it to Ryan, would be to donate it to the GLBT Historical Society in San Francisco,” he wrote in an email to NBC News. “ … it seems the right place for both a tribute to homosexual Scouts and all that they have endured.”
Almost-Eagle Scout denied award because he is gay
Eagle Scouts return badges to protest policy banning gays
Boy Scouts: We're keeping policy banning gays
Boy Scouts review controversial anti-gay policy
Gay mom upset after dismissal by Boy Scouts
Another gay Eagle Scout, Robert Goris-Kolb, a 25-year-old pharmacist from Grand Island, N.Y., said his husband had been pushing him to return his badge after the BSA announced it was sticking with the membership policy.
“Unlike Ryan, at the time I earned my Eagle Scout badge I was not out of the closet, and did not have to face the indefensible discrimination he is currently confronted with,” he wrote. Media reports on Andresen have “finally pushed me over the edge and I can no longer stay on the sidelines of this tragedy. Instead of returning my award to the BSA however, I would like to send it to Ryan, so that if he does not win his fight against this organization, he may in one way be granted what he has rightfully earned.”
Karen Andresen, who had started an online petition calling for her son to get his Eagle rank, said the Scoutmaster knew about her son's sexual orientation and that Ryan was led to believe he would nonetheless get the award.
But Boys Scouts spokesman Smith said Andresen was no longer eligible for membership in Scouting because he did not meet the membership standard on sexual orientation and he had informed his unit leadership that he did not agree to Scouting’s principle of "Duty to God." The family disputed that, saying the only reason Andresen was denied the rank was "because the Boy Scouts of America has a problem with Ryan being gay."
Kimball, who knows Andresen’s father, Eric, the troop's chief administrator, attended a troop meeting earlier this week on how to resolve Ryan’s case. He said talks were under way on recognizing the teen’s accomplishment while keeping the troop together amid the difficult time and some hard feelings.
“I want Ryan to be recognized. I want him to get an Eagle award even if it’s mine,” he said. “It’s a physical symbol that encapsulates so many great memories and a really important time in our lives … it’s difficult to let go of, but for me, I knew that it would be a positive thing.”
If you are a current or former member of the Boy Scouts and would like to share your thoughts on the membership policy, you can email the reporter at miranda.leitsinger@msnbc.com
Leave a Comment:
In my own opinion the Boy Scouts of America need to change their name to Just Boy Scouts. Their value system of intolerance and exclusion has very little to do with the values America is based on.
Everyday their relevance lessens, they need to take a leaf from the Girls Scouts of America's book.
"Take a leaf from the Girl Scouts"? There are multiple groups that are springing up and growing like crazy because so many parents want an alternative to the liberal, self absorbed direction the Girl Scouts have taken. I was a Girl Scout for 7 years, but my daughter won't be joining. We'll stick with one of the alternate groups until she is old enough for Venturing through the BSA.
Looking for a group like the KKK, or Lambs of God?
Liberal is when a woman like havesomesense tries to push her woman agenda down everyone's throats. Even the bible says in 1 TIM 2:12...that females need to shut up.
havesomesense: It's sad that you are passing your hate and ignorance on to your daughter. I feel sorry for her if she is gay because obviously she will not have your support.
havesomesense
I see becasue they are tolerant and don't exclude they are liberal and this is somehow bad, they actually take their guiding rules from the Constitution. I just hope you teach your daughter tolerance and acceptance as well.
havesomesense - Some alternate groups have been around quite a long time, rather than "springing up" as of late. For example, DeMolay International for boys was founded in 1919. The International Order of Rainbow for Girls was founded in 1922. In New York, The Organization of Triangles, Inc. was founded in 1927. There are many, many great organizations out there for children and young adults. I find it a shame that many parents do not know about these groups, and feel some level of pressure to have thier kids join only Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts.
No means no. Deal with it. This is America, not Sodom. Do your filth, it you can't control that itch, but no one has to approve of it.
FreyjasSong,
The problem of joining the fraternal organization such as Demolay, Rainbow and Triangle is that you have to have a member of the Mason or Eastern Star as a direct adult family member.
~ C NJ Mom
former Triangle and OES member
From earlier articles it sounded like the scoutmaster was willing to look the other way on this kid being gay since it says that he knew. Then this kid apparently decided he was going to make his being gay an issue by openly "coming out." The kid did this knowing full well what the BSA policy was towards gays. I do not know if it was the kid's idea to come out or if his parents influenced this decision. In any case, by coming out he intentionally backed the scoutmaster into a corner. The scoutmaster was left with the choice of either violating BSA policy and risking his own position as scoutmaster or refusing to sign off on the kid's award. I get the feeling that the kid coming out at this time was a very deliberate political move that was designed to try and make the BSA look bad by denying the award he had completed all of the requirements for. The timing of his coming out is just too convenient to think it was anything else. There is not much time between completing the requirements and getting the award, so his coming out at this particular time seems very contrived and deliberate. It may have even been a set up to try and justify a suit against BSA, even though the Supreme Court ruling gives them virtually no chance of winning. Like it or not, the BSA is a private organization and is entitled to their policies. This kid in now not going to get the award he worked so hard for because it appears he tried to make a political statement and it cost him. I think that was extremely deliberate and I refuse to feel sorry for this kid. He appears to have deliberately set out to challenge the BSAs rules, possibly with the urging of his parents, and he lost. He has no one to blame for that but himself. Like it or not, he knew the policies and now has to live with the results of his actions.
Really??
Why not start a gay scouts group or something for yourselves? Sorry, but as a heterosexual white male I cannot help but feel sick and tired of every so-called minority pushing their beliefs or the acceptance thereof onto everyone else (especially us white males)
Am I prejudice? Probably. But only as a defense mechanism resulting from the constant badgering of "you must allow us" crap that is pushed around in today's PC world. Do your thing and let me do mine.
Why can't you have yours and let others have theirs? If the scouts don't want gays, fine that's their choice. If you want johnny to ram his ^&%@ in your butt or down your throat, go ahead. Just don't try to make those that don't like it accept it. All will be fine - IMO.
I guess segregated may be the result, but so what?
Sure this kid fulfilled the Eagle Scout requirements. I kinda feel a bit of compassion for him, but on the other hand rules are rules. The scouts don't allow gays. In America, they should be guaranteed their right.
Just like the Master's in Augusta caved into allowing women, here we go again. I suspect the scouts will cave. Nothing against women btw. Just start an all women's golf club. I promise to not join or force you to allow me to join.
C NJ Mom - That may have been true in years past, but most of the organizations have relaxed those policies, mostly due to the fact that it is hard enough to get members for such little-known groups. Currently, for example, OOT now only requires Masonic "sponsors", which means that the petition for membership must be signed by a Mason or OES (or other concordant body) member. This can even be a Supervisor of the group who is willing to vouch for the girl's character. I am also a member of the OES.
If I may ask, what Triangle were you a member of? It is always a pleasure to hear from other Alumni! I am a PBQ of Truth Triangle in HUntington, NY, and also a Past Metropolitain Division Sweetheart for DeMolay.
JS in SD
The BSA wants to protect its "pervert files" concerning its adult leaders who molest children while they prevent a gay scout from receiving an Eagle Scout award that he as earned. Why would you defend an organization that acts in such an unfair and irrational manner?
Why is it that so many Americans defend the right to be exclusionary?
"Knowing the rules when you join" is not a reasonable defense when the rules are unfair, hateful, exclusionary and anti-American. The KKK also has rules that are unfair and exclusionary ...... do you also defend their rights. Certainly the KKK and the BSA have the right of free speech, but at least the KKK is open about who they target. The BSA wants to operate privately, but their policies are still unfair and should not be tolerated.
rogerstv
Yes, you are prejudiced. But you admit it. You don't need anyone else to tell you that. But to defend an unfair policy just because "those are the rules." is ridiculous. News flash, roger ..... THE RULES STINK. THE RULES ARE UNFAIR. THE RULES ARE PREJUDICED AND ONLY A PREJUDICED PERSON WOULD DEFEND THEM. RULES CAN BE CHANGED, AND THIS CASE THE SOONER THE RULES ARE CHANGED THE BETTER OFF THE BSA AND EACH OF ITS MEMBERS WILL BE.
leave the kid alone and give him his badge.....who gives a rats ass if he's gay. as long long as he's not pushin' it on straight people, then that's a different story. he earned it, period. don't know why the subject would even come up amongst a scout meeting. what do they go around the room and ask the boys sexual orientation?!?
Everyone agrees they have a right to be intolerant.
And others have the right to try to shame them out of it.
Whether it will actually work or not is not really the main point.
This boy was not accused of any sex act or any other "filth." The filth is in your mind, alongside hate and judgement. The BSA protects adult molesters while they deny the right of a gay scout to receive his Eagle award.
Your America is not my America. My America celebrates diversity. My America is not exclusionary. My America welcomes this Eagle scout.
The reason that you are twisted up is because as a White male you think that the world revolves around you and no one else is qualified to do anything except for you.( You think that your pale skin makes you superior, but ask yourself why) Here's a wake up call for you: The world doesn't revolve around you and no one needs to prove anything to you, because as you have witnessed when given a fair chance others can be successful and narrow minded people like you can't handle it.
Even as a little kid the photo proves his ability to earn the "I'm a little teapot" badge.
gays and lesbians want to push acceptance of thier lifestyles on straight people,we are to be open to allowing everything they want. What about straight peoples wants we do not accept what you want we are racist. What are you if not racist in reverse for not allowing us our beliefs.You force yours on us but will not do the same its not right.
scouter rich
Your rights end when they harm mine. I don't think any LGBT people want you to join them in the bedroom, so besides that how are they hurting you?
Rogerstv,
I cannot believe you are a real person. If you are serious, then shame on you, and everyone who liked your comment. People like you are exactly what is wrong with America today. Let me see, let's go through the highlights of your racist, bigoted, sexist rant:
SERIOUSLY?! Seriously. Talk about selfish, delusional, arrogant and entitled! I don't think it's a secret that white, heterosexual males have it PRETTY DAMN EASY in this country and the world at large, so enough of the crocodile tears and tales of "woe"-maybe you should learn to share, eh?
Addendum: Are you prejudiced? DEFINITELY. A "defense mechanism"? PSHHHH. Please, let's just call it what it is: it's racism, bigotry, and sexism (I'll be using those words a lot to describe you, so buckle up). And all of those are rooted in FEAR: You are a coward, afraid of anything different than your white conservative world. And a question: how are the "rest of us" supposed to "do our thing" if you entitled, arrogant, white males won't let us?
That's a pretty graphic picture you paint, I can tell you've been thinking about homosexual activities a lot, which should maybe concern you, given your fear/revulsion towards them. No one is trying to make you "accept it" (as in, no one is trying to make you gay, and no one is trying to plant homoerotic fantasies into your head). What we are asking is that you stop the intolerance, stop the hate, and let everyone have the equal rights as your entitled, white, arrogant, male, delusional self.
SO WHAT? SO WHAT? Are you @!$%#ing kidding me.
No, it should not be guaranteed their right, because there is NO good reason to exclude gays other than religious bigotry. It's time for homophobia to be ousted from our belief system, because the Bible is full of all kinds of @!$%# that no one would dream of supporting today--polygamy, infanticide, incest, slavery, to name a few. Although, from your rant, it sounds as though you might be supporting a few of those.
It appears that rogerstv as some gender-attraction issues he has yet to work through...
Ugh, I sure wouldn't want to share a shower or tent with a gay. Create a gay scouts.
It is really too bad that long time traditions are being attacked by minority groups. If the gay community is so worried about this they canveasily form a GBSA. Gay Boy scouts of America. They can set their own rules and guidelines. Why is it necessary to destroy the standards and traditions of this group to please the few.
As someone pointed out the scout master was turning his attention away from the fact the boy "thought" he was gay and would have gotten his award. Instead he chose to make an isue of it causing the scaout master to act. The boy wanted the national attention like he was something special.
"The scouts don't allow gays. In America, they should be guaranteed their right."
Really?! So why did they hide decades-worth of child sexual abuse by scout leaders and camp counselors rather than inform authorities as the LAW DEMANDS? BSA: simply another "Christian" criminal-protection racket...
Mr. BinkieUgh, I sure wouldn't want to share a shower or tent with a gay.
Really?! So why did they hide decades-worth of child sexual abuse by scout leaders and camp counselors rather than inform authorities as the LAW DEMANDS? BSA: simply another "Christian" criminal-protection racket...
"It is really too bad that long time traditions are being attacked by minority groups"
You mean like how they hid decades-worth of child sexual abuse by scout leaders and camp counselors rather than inform authorities as the LAW DEMANDS? BSA: simply another "Christian" criminal-protection racket...
We need to treat all people with respect....I have relatives who are gay and they are wonderful individual, even believing in Him. Folks who are not gay or in other 'groups' should remember that everyone should be treated equally in our country and in the world. The young man in the Boy Scouts should have received his pins, but the Boy Scouts are a very narrow minded group and certainly trying to act like 'gods', which they are not. I am truly Thankful (even to God Almighty) that my sons never wanted to be a part of the 'boy scout' groups in this country.
"What about straight peoples wants we do not accept what you want we are racist."
When "what...straight people want" denies an entire class of American citizens equal protection under the law, those "wants" become irrelevant...
Mr. Binkie, If you went to high school, you have already showered with plenty of gay people and survived with your hate and homophobia intact. Congrats.
Fortunately Avenger, in the United States we have an amazing history of minorities attacking long time traditions, you know, like slavery, Jim Crow laws, sexual harassment, etc. Some long time traditions need to go and this is one of them.
Hey, it's the Boy Scouts! No fudge packers allowed! :-O
alan
I noticed your mouth at the end of the sentence. What is it that you are ready to put in that mouth? Just wondering ....... looks suspicious to me. Open wide!
Since when are queers a race? People here saying people are racist because they believe being queer is deviant, disgusting behavior. That in NO WAY makes someone a racist. Call someone all the names you want, but you have NO RIGHT to tell them what they can or can not believe, nor to tell a private organization what they can or can not believe. Arrogant, INTOLERANT libs.
Your sick.
scouter
I just want you to know that as a straight person you do not speak for me. I could hardly agree less with your narrow minded hateful point of view. Where do you get off deciding what you will "allow." In this country we "allow" equality, even for those with whom we disagree. This is not about race, so it is not "racist", but it is ugly and it is hateful so if you want to use (misuse) the term racist, I guess it makes sense. Just so you know that, whatever you choose to call it, you are not "forced" to do anything. In fact, the less you do the better off we will all be.
You do not have to change your lifestyle. You are not being asked to "allow anything they want." All you are being asked to do is to be aware that rights are important even when they do not directly affect you, and in this case you are not affected at all so what is your problem?
Kind of ironic that above this article there is another about Sandusky hmm. It appears MSNBC loves to promote gay equality yet painting a different picture about Sandusky who obviously is a gay pedophile. So America was founded on tolerance? Don't think so, it was intolerance to others that the first settlers settled here, it was religion and God that made them settle here. It was intolerance to the King telling the people how to think, what to pay etc etc that lead to the Revolution. Intolerance to others formed this country, for if in fact we were tolerant we would be under British Rule today. One nation under God does not mean anything other than that and all you people who think other wise get out of my country.
J.C.-1016889
JC
In your rush to rant you failed to notice that the "racist" term came from one of your fellow bigots who was accusing others of calling him a racist because he shares your narrow minded view of gay Americans, specifically scouter rich, #1.18.
You are wrong when you say that others have no right to tell you what you can and can't believe, because the opinion and free speech rights of those who disagree with you are at least as righteous as your own. You don't have to listen, and you probably won't, but we are within our rights to express our opinions about you as long as we do you no harm.
You might not like the criticism but I suggest you get used to it because your views become less acceptable with each passing day. Your narrow-minded, exclusionary attitudes are dying out and, while I am sure that there will always be bigots, racists and other hateful people in this country, you will be more and more marginalized as time goes by.
Uh, Lynyrd, perhaps you should do a little light reading and figure out when "under God" was put into the pledge of allegiance. Hint: it was centuries after the signing of the constitution. While you're at it, here's another snippet of light reading, it's from the Treaty of Tripoli, signed by our founding father John Adams:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."
You won't find the words "God" or "Jesus" anywhere in the Constitution. In fact, the first amendment makes it pretty damn clear that religion is best left out of this government and our laws. Our pilgrim fathers fled England because they were literally being slaughtered and burned at the stake for believing something different. They were fleeing intolerance, not seeking intolerance, and it certainly wasn't FOUNDED on intolerance. Your thinking is backwards.
don97524,
Well, certainly nothing that fudge packers would put in their mouths.
I would like to know what part of Boy scouts or Girl Scouts for that matter started to have to do with sex. When I was in it there was no sex involved. Is this something new. Or is this the Boy Scouts of America overreacting to the fact that they turned a blind eye towards sexual predators and now they want to take it out on the kids. Just grow up and have some common sense. No wonder people are grabbing guns and going crazy. It is stupid crap like this. Unless BSA wishes to start being a sex organization then stop this crap.
I remember being a boy scout and they would bring out the Bible for us during camp, I also remember what is considered a sin in the Bible. I also remember that sodomy is still illegal in alot of states. Hmmm the world goes round and round as our morals come tumbling down. I guess that explains why there is so much turmoil.
Actually, Chris a Supreme Court ruling turned over all sodomy laws. So, sodomy is not illegal in any state.
I also remember what is considered a sin in the Bible. Some of which people practice daily, but are too busy condemning gays to notice. It always astounds me that people are so bent out of shape about a few lines in the Bible that may or may not be about homosexuality, but don't get so bent out of shape over other sins in the Bible that they blatantly ignore and commit. Do you think it might have absolutely nothing to do with sinning and absolutely everything to do with prejudice against GLBT individuals? Yep, that makes much more sense.
JFC-3426249: "who gives a rats ass if he's gay. as long long as he's not pushin' it on straight people.."
I bet JFC-3426249 never considers that heterosexuals, including the BSA, are "pushing it" (heterosexuality) on gay scouts every day of their life. I suspect your idea of not 'pushing it' is for gay scouts to remain in the closet, not talk about their sexuality with fellow members, essentially 'don't ask, don't tell". That way the status quo is maintained, the straight people remain unenlightened and they're all happy. Unfortunately the gay scout can't be himself, he has to hide his identity. That's no longer any good. The scouts as a whole need to learn tolerance if they're going to be truly functioning members of society. If Scouting doesn't teach them the value of tolerance, then they might be better off spending their time in other activities.
Rogerstv: now you know how the rest of the world feels when you hetero white males start pushing everyone else around. You have been the dominate force in the USA politically, socially and economically from the beginning. It's real tough to listen to a guy from the privileged class whine about feeling put upon.
The point here is that, as usual, the conservative organization doesn't actually want to stand its ground. The BSA and the local group are claiming that the young man renounced his duty to God. He did no such thing. He told them he was gay, they already knew he was gay when he started working on the badge, some local organizations don't make a big deal about it and award the rank anyway, the offical position used to be that they only prohibited gay scoutmasters, and I'm pretty sure that (technically) the offical position is still that they don't allow gay scoutmasters.
The BSA is lying. The young man did not renounce his duty to God--had he wanted to do something like that, why on Earth would he be pursuing an Eagle Scout rank? Eagle Scouts don't renounce their duty to God. It is the BSA that is both lying about what the young man said and which is failing to be responsible for sticking to the policy (which is no gay scoutmasters).
The BSA knows danged well that it did exactly what the Catholic Church did in terms of failing to notify police about known child abuse. They refused to give out the records, dragging their feet for a very long time, until the statute of limitations protected them. They are a dishonest, untrustworthy, filthy, and irreverant organization, even though many of the young men in the organization are the opposite. Their policy on not allowing "gay" people in the organization is mostly intended to hide the fact that they did nothing about molestation for decades.
The young man had every reason to believe that the local organization would let him achieve Eagle Scout status--other local organizations do--it is the deceitfulness of the scoutmaster that is in question here. If he had no intention of signing off on the project, he shouldn't have allowed the young man to waste many, many hours on the project. If the scoutmaster was going to create this hullabaloo, he should have been forthright and warned the young man. The issue here is the scoutmaster and his two-facedness as well as the lies being told about the young man renouncing God. The issue isn't even this young man being gay--it is that he was lied to and lied about that is the issue.
As an adult, gay male, who was a boy scout in his youth, I say it's time to boycott the BSA into financial oblivion until it stops its bigoted, hypocritical practices. The BSA won't allow gays into its ranks, but allows, permits and asks for straight, married-with-children, church-going pedophiles (you know - people like Sandusky).
It is time for the scouts to ban straight, married-with-children men from its ranks, since they are the one are most often the predators of young boys for devient, perverted sexual stuff. Statistics don't lie. Until it lifts its bans on gays and starts banning straights, I will no longer financially support the BSA. Children are too precious to put into the line of fire of dirty, perverted, evil straight men. All those men want to do is rape children. It's a fact. Look it up. Straight men don't get infolved in the scouts because they want to assist male children to grow up being productive. They get involved because they want to rape male children. Again, it's a fact. Look it up. No straight male, married or single, should be permitted to be around children.
" 'Knowing the rules when you join' is not a reasonable defense when the rules are unfair, hateful, exclusionary and anti-American. The KKK also has rules that are unfair and exclusionary ...... do you also defend their rights. Certainly the KKK and the BSA have the right of free speech, but at least the KKK is open about who they target. The BSA wants to operate privately, but their policies are still unfair and should not be tolerated."
A couple of facts for you. BSA is as open as they can be about who they target. The first thing any boy scout learns when he enters a troop for membership and prior to any advancement are:
Scout Law
A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.
Scout Oath
On my honor I will do my best
to do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
to help other people at all times;
to keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.
Those make it pretty clear what kinds of youth the BSA is looking for and what their expectations are for members and leaders. Also, since the vast majority of Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, & Venturing Scout troops are sponsored by church groups, it isn't uncommon for the troops to begin each meeting or activity with a prayer. It would be pretty hard to attend scouts for any length of time and be confused as to what their stance is on homosexuality.
And anyone involved with scouting in any form over the past 15 years (like the boy in the story's father who happens to be a long time leader) knows about the landmark Supreme Court decision from back in 2000. The BSA does not have to allow gay members or leaders, period. Since then, they've been pretty darn clear about the homosexual issue. So to be fair, the BSA is open about who they target. Their position on homosexuality isn't somekind of a secret.
Also, as despicable as the KKK happens to be, many Americans are going to "defend their rights". Our constitution protects free speech, even when most of us don't agree with the speech. I would argue that groups like the KKK actually do themselves more harm when they are left to freely promote their hate. Most rational Americans of all creeds regard their speech as repulsive and ignore them completely. That is why they have been a marginal, splinter group since since the 1930s. But they are still a private organization that have rights.
The BSA's rights have been established by law and the courts. They have chosen to exclude homosexuals, lesbians, bi-sexuals, and transgender members and leaders. We may not like it. We may speak out about in forums such as this. We may even try and "shame" them as some people on here have suggested.
It does not mean they will change. They have little incentive. They collect hundreds of millions of dollars a year in support & charitable donations. Most of which comes through affiliations with the largest churches in America. Catholic, Mormon, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Lutheran, and other Christian congregations represent more than 80% of Cub, Boy, Varsity, & Venturing troop organizations in the U.S.
The only way you get the BSA to change this stance, is to get those churches to change their stance on homosexuality because those churches are the BSA's bread & butter. Any chance that the Catholic church is going to make doctrinal changes regarding homosexuality any time soon? How about the Mormon church? The Baptists? Not likely.
I've said it before on this issue and I'll say it again. Leave the BSA to its policy because it isn't going to change. There should be an alternative if people feel so strongly about it. Some kind of a seperate national scouting organization that is inclusive and allows LGBT participation. That would be the only way in my opinion.
You guys are acting like 'gay' is a race or a color. Boy... you guys will believe anything the media pushes on you, won't you? A bunch of lemmings just running around and jumping off of cliffs.
I guess we are still looking for that 'gay gene' aren't we? I'm talking about the nice verified and conclusive studies, not the joke studies that run out and claim they found something with unverified and inconclusive tests, the ones the media just loves to attach on to as quickly as possible.
Next lemming please... run, jump, wheeeeee!
Wow. You seriously need to take your medication.
Let you tell it, every straight man in the world wants to abuse children, where-as every gay person in the world is a Saint.
Like we care.
Man, I wasn't aware Mental Institutions allowed Internet access.....
@rogerstv Post of the day. You hit the nail on the head. Gay guys: either form the gay scouts or join the girl scouts. No whiners allowed in the BSA. You are an embarrassment to the organization.
I respect the laws of the land . . . the BSA has a right to discriminate in the way and fashion they have chosen. I have a right to condemn them and do so, and I have a right to legally oppose the BSA in every way I can – and I do so. Further, no one is trying to force anything on you; you have created this moment and it's yours own - choices have consequences.
If you are upset about this, take it up with a lawyer and do something about your perceived grievance. It will be an instructive moment or two for you. In the mean time, social/economic evolution is occurring and your voices of intolerance and mean-spiritedness become shriller and shriller as your circle of influence draws in about you.
In another decade or so, your voices will be screaming on high just before discovering you have become a lonely and isolated fringe just like you had hoped to make out of people who are LGBT. When that occurs, the folks you hated so much will embrace and welcome you as you may wish – or you may choose to die with hate in your heart and grief in your soul. The path is yours to choose but there are only two paths, love and tolerance or hate and intolerance.
I ask again - why is it important for a 15 year old to be a homosexual? He's fifteen, his hormones are raging, and he spends all his time around other boys. What do you think is going to happen? He's going to give in to thinking he's gay because he gets an erection in the shower with other boys. He's going to share a tent with another hormonally overcharged boy and they're going to wank each other, rub up together, even make out together. That's not being gay, that's being horny and girls are being extremely difficult. Difficult to be around, difficult to get around (believe it or not, 90% of all teenage boys are extremely nervous around girls their own age because attraction and inexperience are hell on earth), and they're not going to put out because our society pressures teenage girls to be celibate, chaste, pony-hugging kewpie dolls; remember what was done to Miley Cyrus recently when she tried to become a woman as her body and mind both demanded?
Frankly, I think we should remind ourselves that a 15 year old isn't gay. He's horny. She's not a lesbian, she's horny. Our society puts tremendous pressure on our young people that is unfair and inappropriate and causes these mental conditions we all have to deal with when they get out of high school and try to fit in with a society that has confused and lied to them since they were small children. Some snap, some turn extremely religious, some declare homosexuality, and some take it on the chin and make something of themselves. Should this boy get his Eagle Scout award? Yes, with the solemn oath that he will not rejoin Scouts in any facility. He did earn his Eagle, there is no question of this. His "Coming Out" was very poorly timed, but the adapting solution is to give him what he's earned while enforcing the "No Gays In Scouts" policy that's been in existance since Day 1. The Media is trying to force a change on an organization that predates them, like any insolent child would attempt to do. Before the Media, we had the Press, and the Press was a tireless watchdog for the little man. Thanks to political professors and Hollywood, we have the Media, which has nothing to do with the Press as evidenced by this story. Were the Press still around, we'd see just the facts, ma'am. No pandering, no catering, no propaganda. Just the facts and no tugging at your heart-strings.
The boy done good in earning his Eagle, but done bad in assuming that it didn't matter that he's gay at 15, before his body and mind have finished maturing. Frankly, I think before 18, no one should have the right to declare themselves as gay or straight. Such declaration puts unnecessary pressure to fulfill a sexual role when the goal of any teenager from 14 to 27 is to get laid by any means necessary. Yes, I know 21-27 isn't technically teenager, but c'mon; except for you really stiff-necked folks, those who had kids really early in life, and you religious people looking for THE ONE AND ONLY, who DIDN'T spend their 20s trying to get laid as much as possible? The only difference was getting a job and your own apartment and there's no denying it. It's human nature and nothing to be ashamed of. Gays just need to shut the hell up and stop trying to justify their decision to go with what works for them by saying they're born that way - no one is born gay OR straight. The hormones in your teen years decide what you'll be based on every factor of your childhood. Thanks to modern technology, we actually have the power to choose regardless of biology, so it comes back to being a decision. Maybe before Viagra and artificial lubrication for females (astroglide, for example), it was not a decision and I'll grant that. But the bottom line is: you're not gay at 15, no matter how much making out you do with other guys. You get this boy making out with a girl and he'll get a woody just as easily. Problem is he's probably extremely shy and uncomfortable around girls and thinks he's gay, and girls aren't going to try to help him realize his masculinity because they're taught since toddlers to not come onto boys, but rather wait for them to make the first move with a rejection loaded up and ready to fire.
Gay my ass. Next thing you know you people will tell me that pedophiles are born pedophiles and aren't just people who prey on the weak because they're afraid to pick on someone their own size! Here's a fact on pedophiles - they're usually ignored except to be touched inappropriately by adults who are cowards because they were ignored and abused as kids themselves. Bullies? No, not hardly. Try control freak parents and you'll be on the mark. Liberals are particularly guilty of this because they abuse their kids and with their guilty conscience proceed to attack society. Why? Because they're deeply confused people that want to be cool and accepted and in control of something, and it gets worse when their kid becomes a teenager and rebels on them. Or gets to the point of having an Eagle Scout award and declares homosexuality to try and impress their distant, often verbally abusive parents who really don't give a crap about anything unless it benefits them somehow. No wonder the kid wants sex so bad - it's the only thing that validates his crappy existance because his parents don't really love him but wanted him so they'd have something to talk about at work when other parents would start chatting cheerfully about how awesome their kid is.
Think I'm lying? Look how they're exploiting his situation for validation of their opinions, primarily politically based. They're using their kid to feel good about themselves. And all you world saving wannabes are salivating like a bulldog to get your two cents in about how wrong the BSA are for upholding their own rules. I wish I could understand why absolute chaos is so beautiful to you people, I really do. Then maybe I'd understand why you're all walking contradictions and hypocrites.
The most effective action to take against an immoral organization is the same one taken against the KKK. Publicity. Not so many years ago, public officials in particular parts of the country were proud to belong to the KKK. Remember David Duke? Where is he now?
I believe that the majority of young scouts and their parents were unaware of the hypocrisy of the B.S.A. Not so much now. I would have been proud if either of my sons had expressed interest in the boy scouts 20 years ago. I would have been shocked when I read the fine print and then helped them find a different organization. The creed is admirable. The policies are hypocritical and dishonor the creed. It should be renamed as the Bigoted Society of America. It is certainly not a fit organization for our children.
Each generation often tosses off the prejudices of the generations before them. The evidence is our own acceptance and defense of women's rights and civil rights that did not exist for some of our parents, grandparents and great-grandparents. Our world is constantly growing smaller where acceptance of others is the only natural progression. The progression toward gay rights is at a turning point as we speak. There is no turning back.
The Boy Scouts of America will adapt to this ever-changing world or be left behind. The same goes for those that agree with their policies. You can stubbornly refuse to join this new world and surely become obsolete. This has happened repeatedly through-out history. How many of you still burn witches at the stake or own slaves?
To all haters and gays or gay supporters posting in reply...
Although admitting to prejudice, I feel as though my post is not as you see it. As much as you believe you are entitled to join any club organization you want, why do you feel any club or organization has to accept you? Why? You have your beliefs. They have theirs. If you don't like it, stay out. If they don't like yours, they can exclude you. Form your own. Damn. That is where the prejudice is developed as a defense to stand my ground because I don't believe gays have to be allowed in every facet of life. You can have yours just don't try and make me accept it. I don't have to. As long as I don't target you with anything I do, how are my beliefs and that of the BSA hurting you?
Yes, you are prejudiced. But you admit it. You don't need anyone else to tell you that. But to defend an unfair policy just because "those are the rules." is ridiculous. News flash, roger ..... THE RULES STINK. THE RULES ARE UNFAIR. THE RULES ARE PREJUDICED AND ONLY A PREJUDICED PERSON WOULD DEFEND THEM. RULES CAN BE CHANGED, AND THIS CASE THE SOONER THE RULES ARE CHANGED THE BETTER OFF THE BSA AND EACH OF ITS MEMBERS WILL BE.
Nope, not necessarily. At what point would they be better off? They are doing fine. I was a scout myself. And, until this article pointed out the rules, I had no idea they didn't allow gays. I agree with others that this kid brought an agenda with him.
The reason that you are twisted up is because as a White male you think that the world revolves around you and no one else is qualified to do anything except for you.( You think that your pale skin makes you superior, but ask yourself why) Here's a wake up call for you: The world doesn't revolve around you and no one needs to prove anything to you, because as you have witnessed when given a fair chance others can be successful and narrow minded people like you can't handle it.
I don't think the world revolves around me or the white male. It takes all to make the world go around gay people included. I just don't have to agree with anyone's beliefs. My point is to quit trying to force acceptance on those that don't accept it. Narrow minded because I don't like male on male sex? O.k. I guess you got me there.
I cannot believe you are a real person. If you are serious, then shame on you, and everyone who liked your comment. People like you are exactly what is wrong with America today. Let me see, let's go through the highlights of your racist, bigoted, sexist rant:
Yep, I am real. And as seen with other similar posts, there are other real people out there too. In simplistic terms, I think most of us heterosexuals are just asking homosexuals to quit forcing us to agree with your sexual orientation. Pretty simple.
SERIOUSLY?! Seriously. Talk about selfish, delusional, arrogant and entitled! I don't think it's a secret that white, heterosexual males have it PRETTY DAMN EASY in this country and the world at large, so enough of the crocodile tears and tales of "woe"-maybe you should learn to share, eh?
What? Crocodile tears and tales of woe? Isn't that what you and yours are doing? Let me in your club. You can't exclude me. Waaaa. Boo hoo. <stomping my foot>
Addendum: Are you prejudiced? DEFINITELY. A "defense mechanism"? PSHHHH. Please, let's just call it what it is: it's racism, bigotry, and sexism (I'll be using those words a lot to describe you, so buckle up). And all of those are rooted in FEAR: You are a coward, afraid of anything different than your white conservative world. And a question: how are the "rest of us" supposed to "do our thing" if you entitled, arrogant, white males won't let us?
Not really sure how you can describe me from one post. Yeah, defending my right to not agree with homosexuals. I don't have to as you don't have to like women for sex. I am not trying to force it upon you. So, stop trying to make me accept your way. Do your thing in your own organization. Plenty of gay rights stuff out there. Embrace it. I don't see anyone stopping it. I won't crash your party - promise. But, you quit crashing mine.
That's a pretty graphic picture you paint, I can tell you've been thinking about homosexual activities a lot, which should maybe concern you, given your fear/revulsion towards them. No one is trying to make you "accept it" (as in, no one is trying to make you gay, and no one is trying to plant homoerotic fantasies into your head). What we are asking is that you stop the intolerance, stop the hate, and let everyone have the equal rights as your entitled, white, arrogant, male, delusional self.
Acceptance and conversion are two different things. You are trying to make the BSA and those that agree with them accept it. Isn't that what happens in gay sex? You have the equal right to start your own gay club. No one has given me a reason why that is a bad idea.
No, it should not be guaranteed their right, because there is NO good reason to exclude gays other than religious bigotry. It's time for homophobia to be ousted from our belief system, because the Bible is full of all kinds of @!$%# that no one would dream of supporting today--polygamy, infanticide, incest, slavery, to name a few. Although, from your rant, it sounds as though you might be supporting a few of those.
Religion and racism?? Really? Bigotry maybe. Are you a hetero bigot? You obviously don't like heteros. I will give one good reason and that is we don't agree with it. I don't support polygamy, infanticide, incest, slavery. Truth. I believe everyone should be allowed equal rights including gays and straights. I don't have to agree with you and you don't have to agree with me. Simple.
It appears that rogerstv as some gender-attraction issues he has yet to work through...
Nope, I am 100% in love with the female body. I consider it a work of art. Nothing about a dudes hairy butt excites me.
Rogerstv: now you know how the rest of the world feels when you hetero white males start pushing everyone else around. You have been the dominate force in the USA politically, socially and economically from the beginning. It's real tough to listen to a guy from the privileged class whine about feeling put upon.
Not trying to come across as whining. I am defending the BSA's right to exclude. If anyone, the kid and all his supporters are whining to let me in. Stay out. Do your own thing. Let me do mine. I certainly feel put upon when someone says "you have to allow us". Yep, that is put upon.
You know, if I or anyone else came on here and started throwing out derogatory slurs against gays and homosexuals, I could understand retaliation. My point is the BSA has rules. They are entitled to them. You are entitled to your own beliefs and rules. If you don't agree with the BSA rules, then stay out. Much more simple solution than trying to force it upon those that don't agree. Start a gay scouts club. You will be with people that understand, agree, support, etc. all of your beliefs. I don't. And, obviously the BSA doesn't either. Therefore, why do you want to be a part of that except for the fact that you want to force others to accept you. USA is free. No one has to accept that of the other. Change the channel not the programming.
Sign me,
A simplest.
alan3008, 'fudge packer' seems like more of a schoolyard insult than a slur but it's still a #5 violation. Post like a grownup.
You're suspended for a day for violating #5 of the Code of Honor.
If the Boy Scouts of America wish to exclude gays, so be it. HOWEVER, they should not receive tax exemption status. Discrimination against anyone for sexual orientation in an organization that recruits young boys into it's organization before they hit puberty is ridiculous. These young kids do not know if they are gay, bi or straight when they join Cub Scouts.
If our young gay men and women can serve our country in the military and risk their lives for our country, then what is the fuss about? Being gay isn't contagious. A straight scout isn't going to go gay.
I was a member of Meridian in East Islip, but aged out in 1978. Won Rose E. Shearer scholarship for that year. Joined OES, but lost interest. My father was a Mason in Bay Shore until he retired and moved to NC.
Do you mean to tell me there are Gays in the Scouts? Tell me it ain't So.......sa! Give the kid his medal. Plain and simple. Or is that to simple for the "Non-gay" powers that be handle. You know....the scouts don't look very good on this. Actually they look pretty pathetic.
As the trend in 21st century America is toward ever greater acceptance of equality of rights and opportunities without regard to sexual orientation, the Boy Scouts will eventually have to choose between changing their exclusionary rules or becoming ever more marginalized as an anti-gay group where only extremely conservative people will find refuge. It will be similar to how the Mormons realized they had to be more accepting of their black members' rights several decades ago or be known as a bigoted religion. By the way, it's my understanding that just north of us, our Canadian cousins some years ago accepted gay Boy Scouts and same-sex marriage and the sky has yet to fall down on them.
Yea, I thought they sold fruitcakes. I didn't think some of the were fruitcakes.
I remember being a boy scout and they would bring out the Bible for us during camp, I also remember what is considered a sin in the Bible. I also remember that sodomy is still illegal in alot of states. Hmmm the world goes round and round as our morals come tumbling down. I guess that explains why there is so much turmoil.
chriscrossing, The Supreme Court case Lawrence v. Texas invalidated all sodomy laws, no matter what state they were in
Homosexuality has no place in the BSA, sorry those who think homosexual's were born that way, they made a choice at some point and that choice was wrong. The same reason they don't use the words life style anymore, it hurt their evil cause.
The Boy Scouts of America are a Christian organization. If we change things to be politically correct, we lose our freedom of association. What happens when I force someone's group to believe the way that I do?
@chriscrossing
50 years ago, it was acceptable to do perform sexual harassment on your co-workers and you can marry off a 13 years old girl.
I guess by your standard, the morals was all time high around that time?
The same thing also written in Bible about marriage at age 13, which we consider "disgusting" now. Yup, moral is so bad now compared to before.
Oh another non story. Yeah I do feel that the world is in a lot of turmoilc hriscrossing because family values and the like are just gone. Why do Gays care so much about the BSA? Its against the rules move on. NOOOOOOOOOOOO its another case of "Damn it we want it regardless of how you feel or what the rules are dont you dare tell us no." Enough is enough all. This is just like going in the ocean and then saying "Damn I really hate salt water make the ocean less salty". Sigh...
Wow, I'm so glad NOT to be american! Everyone seems like ignorant idiots, who are not tolerant! If your not on the side of history, being open and non judging then you are on the wrong side of history! Don't people realize how many people are hurt by judgement of others? But Americans can care less! I can really see why that economy is going down the tubes! Also, I bet the people that are quickly to judge are not even professionals? I don't see educated people being that stupid!
Brook don't worry. We don't want you here -- so it's even. Oh, and the economy will be fine again when we dump these liberal clowns.
Old Guy
(I'm old too)
No, they are not. They only require a belief in a higher power there are Jewish Scouts, Muslim Scouts, and even Buddhist Scouts. Many Buddhists do not even believe in a higher power.
Even if they were A Christian organization there are several Christian denominations that fully accept Gays. Many even have Gay Pastors.
When the Scouts make an oath to be Reverent the rest of that oath is often ignored:
* A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.
Obviously many people of faith have different beliefs about Gays than the BSA does. In fact many Gays believe in a higher power.
What we have is a Scouting Leadership that does NOT respect the beliefs of others - The BSA refuses to obey their very own Laws!
I would have to agree with Chriscrossing. The Boy Scouts of America is based upon christian ideology. The problem is too many gays think that the lessons applied does not include them. If they prefer the art of scouting, why can't they just form their own group? The reason they won't is because they want people to feel like their lifestyle is accepted and they want to push their way into any group that won't accept them. Let me say this again.....It's not about the scouting..... It's about them trying to subvert christian beliefs.
What's kind of hypocritical is that they won't allow christians to do the same thing to them. In fact, they fight about it constantly......and say how christians shouldn't inflict their beliefs on others, and call christian names if they don't get their way......Try doing that to a gay person and you're automatically labeled a bigot......
Anyone can see the gay's hypocrisy........
Our first amendment rights to freedom of religion does not end just because a gay person says so.
The most effective action to take against an immoral organization is the same one taken against the KKK. Publicity. Not so many years ago, public officials in particular parts of the country were proud to belong to the KKK. Remember David Duke? Where is he now? He has become irrelevant and went the way of the Dodo bird.
I believe that the majority of young scouts and their parents were unaware of the hypocrisy of the B.S.A. Not so much now. I would have been proud if either of my sons had expressed interest in the boy scouts 20 years ago. I would have been shocked when I read the fine print and then helped them find a different organization. The creed is admirable. The policies are hypocritical and dishonor the creed. It should be renamed as the Bigoted Society of America. It is certainly not a fit organization for our children.
Each generation often tosses off the prejudices of the generations before them. The evidence is our own acceptance and defense of women's rights and civil rights that did not exist for some of our parents, grandparents and great-grandparents. Our world is constantly growing smaller where acceptance of others is the only natural progression. The progression toward gay rights is at a turning point as we speak. There is no turning back.
The Boy Scouts of America will adapt to this ever-changing world or be left behind. The same goes for those that agree with their policies. You can stubbornly refuse to join this new world and surely become obsolete. This has happened repeatedly through-out history. How many of you still burn witches at the stake or own slaves?
For all you non-believers who constantly quote from the bible........It's obvious to everyone here that you have never read it...... You too, Cuong DNygyuen ........I remember once you saying you had been a christian for 20 years....... I know you are lying now......there was never any such thing about marrying off a 13 year old....... so I know now that you made it up. You never really knew Christ.
He broke a contract he signed. Also, why don't gays join a scouting group they started?
I think if gays have their way the Boys Scouts of America will end up like the YMCA( Young men's christian association). If you go back in history like Commonsense101 did and compare what the Gays did to the YMCA you will find that it is no longer a christian organization. Gays turned that place into a place where they could have sex. ...... Everyone knows that. It was only when Christians decided to reclaim that space back did they begin to turn it back into something that even children can enjoy........
Do you want to see The Boy Scouts of America ending up in the same fate? I don't. Let's stop the hypocrisy now, because as history shows us ( as Commonsense101 pointed out) everyone will be better off if they just tell the gays to keep their hands off!
(And no..... even gays can't hide their little bit of history either......)
Joregon: Here's what Baden Powell ( founder) said about the Boys Scouts of America:
Yeah, right that this isn't a CHRISTIAN organization....
Unhappy,
I can so see why you are! You have become so jaded for some reason; you have no compassion, only ignorance; and i don't believe that you have "read" the Bible! Does, "Love your neighbor, as yourself" sound familiar? Why can't you let people live "their" life, if it doesn't affect your's? What is it to you if someone get's a "medal", for completing all the requirements! Does it say, "you can't get this award if you are gay, straight, autistic, ignorant (which apparently would disqualify you), if you "pee" standing up, or sitting down; if you scratch your ba--s, or your a-s, which you obviously are?
In my, GOD Loving, CHRIST trusting, mind; GOD created us, not you, or anyone else to be us, each and everyone unique, and different; and you do not know how he created, each, and every one of us' or why! I will Pray for you and all the "controlling" others; that you will not only realize how special you are; but, as well, how special, and unique, we all are; created in the image of GOD our Father; not how you, or anyone else thinks we should be created!
It is really stupid how this, one subject; has created such a division in OUR country; when it is all so simple! Live your life how you are created to live; AND let others live their life, as they are created; no matter what you think! No one, unless it hurts someone else life, has a right, or reason to criticize, anyone else!
I pray for you all!
GOD Bless
"Back packer!" LOLOLOLOLOL!
Chris Allen: You have a false impression of God. You think that God caters to you and that you can do whatever you want? If that were the case, then there would be no reason for Jesus's death on the Cross. Afterall, should'nt we "just love everybody"? But that is not what happened. Jesus's death served a purpose..... for you to recognize your sin and not gloss it over with "words of love".
That is the biggest deception yet.
Notice he mentioned the "Law" again.
He could start the fruit basket scouts of America......and join bummer, seeing as he is the first gay pres..........
Unhappy
Yes Baden-Powell did say that at first. He quickly changed that thought because he felt all that was necessary was a belief in a higher power.
In other words he realized his mistake and was man enough to correct it.
http://scoutdocs.ca/Documents/Fundamental_Principles.php
Another important principle is also presented on this page:
This young man is being discriminated against for HOW he feels, not because of anything he has done. There is no indication he has had sex with anyone or even lusted.
To bad the Scouts aren't man enough to either follow their own laws or correct their wrongs.
Also Unhappy, I was wondering where my other post to you went.
Found it down here:
#25.6 - Tue Oct 9, 2012 9:08 PM PDT
I guess I need some sleep I have no idea how it went there.
Hey no fair.....I was told to eat my first brownie if i wanted to be boy-scout.
@ Unhappy-1583758
Lol, I guess you are not as Christian as you think you are. I never lie, I said I was Christian for 20 years whether you believe it or not.
Where do you think the Bible was written? In Middle East by Middle East people. The bible didn't explicitly said that, but consider the custom, culture and the period when it was written, this is a norm.
It doesn't take a genius to tell you that many quotes in the Bible refer to marriage at age of 13. However, it takes someone who so blind in faith to deny this fact.
Oh, right right, the Bible doesn't do this just like it never treat men more important than the women *roll eyes*
This boy knew the rules. He chose to openly admit he had violated those rules and is paying the consequences. The Boy Scouts of America is a youth "male" organization. They have set rules and guidelines to be a member scout or scoutmaster. just like any company around the world has rules, if you violate tone of them you pay the price.
What this boy did was much like we see occuring in other settings. The gay community doesn't want equal rights. They want "special treatment" . This lifestyle choice is different fro the straigh community like it or not, but many gays don't want to just get along in society they want to parade around and stuff it in the face of the majority. The New York parade is a prime example. Gays aready are accepted if they follow the rules just as everyone else does and don't bring attention to themselves. I have worked with many. Only when they want to be treated differently does it cause problems.
Start a "Gay Scouts of America" and leave the Boy Scouts. Simple right?
Why do the gays always feel they have force their ideology upon every "straight" organization. You don't like the guidelines of one group? Go start your own...
How easy is that?
Cuong DNugyen: I have read all your posts on almost every subject. If you claim you do not lie, then you are really misinformed. Your knowledge is so bad, that I can't help but to ask where you are getting your information from. It's funny that most of the time you can't even quote a bible verse to justify your beliefs. Or you take something completely out of context....... Yeah, we can see how much of a christian you once were.
JOregon: You are confusing what Liam Morland said with what Baden Powell has said. Look at the top.... This was not the original founder's intent. This started off as a CHRISTIAN ministry. Enough said.
Never, Unhappy?
These are not examples from Ameerica you say? Okay, here you go.
http://www.faqs.org/childhood/A-Ar/Age-of-Consent.html
Thank you Just an O! Notice how they don't reply? They hate facts. Thanks very much for yours!
This is a children to teens organization that does good work. They should allow all to join- just as all places in the United States, which is based on equality and freedom, should allow all. The Boy Scouts, though influenced by religion certainly, preaches respect and non-discrimination- yet breaks its own rules. And for the record, according to the Official BSA: "No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training." So, Christianity is not necessarily the rule of the land- these no gays allowed rules are outdated- it's like having a "no blacks allowed" rule. Sounds like a drastic comparison, but give it 20 years- history will laugh at them. I hope they come out on the right side of history- they do good work when they aren't being bigoted.
@Unhappy-1583758
So, which part of my post is bad? Care for example?
The reason I don't post quotes from Bible because I read Vietnamese version of Bible, I sometimes use English version, but 95% I used Vietnamese version.
Even with 2 different versions, the translation and meaning of many things are different.
So, what did I say wrong about the custom, period and the time when the Bible was written? Oh, that's right, I got it right since it was normal to be marry off at age of 13 and the age gap isn't much of issue here. It was pretty normal for a 13 years old to marry a 40+ years old, a little history lesson would tell you that much.
As for you attempt, please specific, you use broad stroke and hope it makes sense, except of course you don't like to go into specific, remind me of someone.
No matter how you try to spin it the Scouts are NOT a Christ Based Organization.
I suggest you join up with Baden-Powell's "Boys' Brigade". Scouts are supposed to be open to those that believe in a higher power and Baden-Powell supported that concept.
CuongDNguyen, in 1912, my Grandmother was 13 when she married my then 23 year old Grandfather( a widower). I was shocked when she told me this. She said this was not only legal in Kentucky at that time, it was very common. It seems most 13 year old girls were worried if they had not been proposed in marriage by their 14th birthday. They would be call old maids.
She explained that times were very hard in those days. Very few girls went to school. Instead, they were taught how to maintain a home and family garden their entire lives. By 13, their maturity was equal or surpassed that of 18 yr.olds of our day(1960).
52 years later, I see her point. Most 18 yr. old people of today are still very much children. They are nowhere near mature enough to marry and have children. The average age of marriage today is 25.
I believe the laws of the land are very slow to reflect the changes in modern society. 17 year olds are permitted to sacrifice their lives in military service. 18 yr. olds are allowed to vote and be executed for crimes against the state. Yet, they can't be trusted to consume alcohol till they are 21. Seems the state is sorely confused about which age in years constitutes adulthood as late as 2012. Perhaps 1912 had a much clearer perspective concerning adulthood than their descendants of 100 years later.
Did Christ turn his back on sinners? Did he exclude anyone from following him? He loved everyone, regardless of their background.
If you are a Lesbian or Gay American, forget the UNamerican BSA. Join the ROTC, then join the US Marines, The USAF, The USN, or the US Coast Guard, or mountain rescue. Then become a congressperson, senator, or president.
The BSA is for NaziDorks.
Gay and atheist? Talk about bad decisions. You made the two worst choices on the planet earth.
Gay Athiest "Submariner" Do not tarnish the Marines with your moniker. You are not and never have been a marine.
Timothy1Mil - and who the hell are you to judge?
A judgemental, intolerant Christian - talk about bad decisions.
Speaking of things that are tarnished - your own moniker, "The Truth." Thanks for your service GAM.
DM98 How do you know I'm a Christian? I'm just a straight guy that vomits when you speak. Excuse me while I go puke.
Hey "The Truth"; do yourself a favor and read the message thread again - perhaps you will realize who I was criticizing. Enjoy your vomit.
That's the issue right there...Christians( Christ like) are tolerant, and are not judgemental.
I totally agree, as an atheist and gay myself. We don't need to be part of organizations that are stupid and have intolerant policies. Let the idiots subscribe to their imaginary higher power; we will remain where reality counts.
"The only common denominator of all your issues is you."
Unless you've served you have no credibility. Even then I doubt it, as your ilk were so ready to flee service the moment DADT was repealed (or at least constantly threatening to).
Servicemembers are servicemembers. If you can't see that, then you are the one tarnishing things.
So if the scoutmaster signs off, you'll be an Eagle Scout in an organization that discriminates against you. Is that something to really be proud of? I'm mixed on this; you should get something you've earned, but in this case, is it worth it?
BeeRent
That is the most competent comment on here.
I also believe he should get something he earned.
I also believe that all sexual preference should be left in the bedroom. I get sick of reading about it.
Business, education, etc. is not the place for it. Only between certain individuals and in certain clubs.
Why give wackos the opportunity to comment on what should be a private matter?
I would agree with you about sexual orientation being a matter to be kept private, except people who say that are never championing the idea of its privacy as an "across the board" thing. Heterosexual sex is EVERYWHERE. Straight people broadcast their sexuality in newspapers (wedding and engagement announcements), in advertising (do I need to see two models making out on the side of every single bus?), movies, TV, radio--straight sexuality seems to be at the very center of everything cultural in America, and no one bats an eye. Yet the same people who want gigantic, showy weddings and to tune in for The Bachelor every week take the "moral stance" that sexuality is private and should be kept in the bedroom, which they really only target toward non-straight people.
You really believe it's private? Refuse to broadcast your orientation, discuss you marital status, wear any external sign that you are married (like a wedding ring), ever discuss anyone that you find attractive or unattractive, or to support other people in doing any of those things. Also, please campaign to have all depictions of sexuality, love, and affection--gay or straight--removed from all public places, magazines, etc. Then I'll take you seriously. Until then, your assertions are just a misguided expression of your heterosexual privilege.
What I wear as far as rings or jewelry is a none issue. Yes, I have a private life and I do not advertise it. Affection can be made toward anyone without taking it to extremes. Gay or straight, I do not care to see a long lip-lock. I do not care what someones sexual preference is. Keep the intimate stuff intimate.
I never give out more information than I have to. I am not the norm in West Texas and that is my choice. I know several people that are of different preferences and they keep it to themselves and are successful. This is not something that should be made an issue of and should not come out of the person's house. And please do not label me as heterosexual. I am not heterosexual, though that is none of your business either. I believe the do not ask and do not tell should almost be law. What others say then becomes null and void without proof.
If it's a wedding ring, it directly contradicts what you said before about not broadcasting your sexuality in public, so you don't get to arbitrarily remove it from consideration.
Additionally, you didn't bother to address the fact that on the societal level we broadcast heterosexuality EVERYWHERE. If you're opposed to sexuality being a public thing, then oppose all of it. Picking and choosing just shows your own short-sighted bias.
Numb3rtech - You don't realize that heterosexuality is continually promoted and paraded across television and movies and everywhere else, just like the fish doesn't realize its swimming in water and we don't notice the air. We accept the universal, continual promotion of a heterosexual "lifestyle" because we perceive it as "normal" and "natural". Think about the reaction to two people walking down the street holding hands. The reaction of many people will be different if one couple is a man and a woman versus another couple who are both men. Same act, different reaction.
I remember being a boy scout and they would bring out the Bible for us during camp, I also remember what is considered a sin in the Bible. I also remember that sodomy is still illegal in alot of states. Hmmm the world goes round and round as our morals come tumbling down. I guess that explains why there is so much turmoil.
Just as a point of information--sodomy is not illegal in any state ans has not been since the Supreme Court ruled in Lawrence vs. Texas in 2003. As for your Bible--all well in good to go live a good Christian life by, but not everyone is a Christian, so keep your damned rules to yourself and accept that not everyone has to live the exact same life you do. Please, additionally, stop asking the government to reaffirm your lifestyle choice based on the religion you picked and accept that society's rules are meant to be more inclusive than the closed-minded exclusionary practices of your cult.
voiceontheleft: I'd like to include that even for those that believe in the Bible (to different degrees), not everyone interprets it's teachings in the same way and not everyone sees it's teachings as unchangable. Since times and societies change, the literal life of people living from 2000-4000 years ago or more does not reflect life in the 21st century. Values such as love-your-neighbor, faithfulness, forgiveness, these are values that are timeless. These are values held by both heterosexuals and homosexuals, bisexuals and transexuals. We're all human no matter who we love. I will never be able to accept the narrow definitions of the bible as espoused by the evangelical, literal interpretation of the bible crowd. They narrow the message instead of expanding it.
Perhasp you missed the part that said it violates the cub scouts code of honor and rules. If you are an officer in the military and you win several stripes and medals and they find out you did it by snorting cocaine would those medal and stripes be stripped from you or not given? Plain and simple he violated the rules of the cub scouts. If he is gay then the boy scouts is not for him. If you dont like the rules of football then dont play football, if you dont like the rules of basketball then dont play basketball-catch my drift??
Amen Matt; Well said.
When it comes to the Bible what people need to do is understand that every text has a context and not just spout Scripture to suit themselves as the person who quoted 1Tim 2:12. To understand this text you have to study the history of who wrote it, why was it written and who was it written to. Additionally, you can't say that the Bible is not relevant for the 21st century as it was for those in the 5th and 6th century. If you are a Christian and believe in the Bible, it also says that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. I have studied in college and seminary (not one that pushed doctrine but allowed students to think for themselves) and have learned the most important lesson of all: God loves everyone, His Son died for all of us but His inspired word is very clear in many areas on what God feels is an abomination in His sight but He still loves. We are to love the sinner but hate the sin. Duty to God in the Boy Scout oath is clear that you honor God and His Word and strive to be like Christ. So for those of you who wish to continue to bash God, His word and those who choose to follow it, I will do what the Bible tells me to do and that is pray for you.
This is how I look at it. The Boy Scouts is an organization with rules and certain beliefs. You know the rules and the beliefs of the organization going in, if you don't agree with them, then stay out. This organization, just like many others, has the Right and Freedom to choose what they believe in, whether you agree with them or not. To force people to change their beliefs is a violation of their rights. You cannot compare homosexual rights to that of racial or gender equality, they are completely seperate issues, so please don't make the comparison. I am tired of hearing story after story of gay activists trying to change peoples beliefs and values, and telling them that they haters and evil, horrible people for not supporting your life style. I could careless what people do behind closed doors, or even if you want to be open about who your are, I don't care; but don't impose your life style on an organization that has already set its standards, rules, and beliefs. Create your own gay scout organization if you want, thats your right, but don't try and take away anyone elses rights because it doesn't agree with yours. Yes, I am a Christian, I believe what the Bible says. This does not mean I am a hater. I am Not. I love my gay relatives just as much as anyone else and would do anything for them short of chaning my beliefs; and I have don't have any ill will towards anyone who is homosexual. I just want all the homosexuals and their supporters to stop imposing their life style on people who don't believe in its righteousness and never will.
Matt - EXACTLY. I don't understand why this is national headlines on MSNBC every other day it seems. Wow they all act like they DONT KNOW THE RULES. Why does this keep coming up. Sorry if you don't like the rules of baseball then DONT PLAY BASEBALL!
voice - OMG you say that because 2 people hold hands the hetrosexual lifestyle is shoved down your throat? Sorry that is the society norm and the fact is a lot of people find it offensive and actually repulsive so to just keep trying to shove it down people's throats is wrong. Everywhere I turn now I have to see and hear it everywhere. Why is it that its OK for that but if its a Sandusky type OMG. I still think its something in the brain that we need to look at trying to "fix" at this point but no one is going to bother. Is Parkinson's a brain disease? So it makes logical sense that homosexuality is too. Sorry its not "normal" we are just to weak a society to stand up and say so.
I remember a time where christians were allowed to believe in God and NOT get made fun of........ Gays were just people who were living in sin and could change if they wanted.
Nowadays, being gay has a political agenda. Destroy Christianity from the inside out starting with all the causes that support christian beliefs. Call anyone a bigot if they don't believe in your way of thinking and get the public to continue the outcry as a way to hold up "American beliefs"........ Do you see how sick the people are becoming? I do....... Since when does expressing my freedom of religion have anything to do with being "un-American".
I hear there is a phrase saying " there's a sucker born every minute" and I think it is so true....... You can't disregard the First Amendment rights and still say we are upholding America.The Constitution doesn't work that way.
This kid and his father were aware of the beliefs of the Boy Scouts BEFORE he joined. They disrespected those beliefs and expected a national organization to conform to them personally. I don't feel sorry for this kid, and I don't care what he wants to do with his penis, he's a weak sinner playing the sympathy card. I am a sinner too, but I will, and have, prayed for this kid to be forgiven. For you idiots who will judge me, my best friend is gay. I love him. We all sin. I feel like I am being raped and deprived of my rights and beliefs everytime I state my belief in God and the good book. Who is out there pitying me? No one much, because they have to put up with a bunch of whiners and bigots everytime some says "God" or " the Bible". Well guess what, God is my saviour, and it is my right to attest to that. This kid should have adhered to the rules and expectations. I don't play the "I'm straight" card, or even state that, when I want special consideration, because I never expect, nor require, special consideration. If I respect something that I want to be a part of, I play by the rules. I don't participate in programs that I don't approve of, nor do I want to be a part of something that I don't approve of. I do not feel any form of sympathy for this kid.
Mistake was made when you chose the Bible over your fellow human.
For instance....The bible can't save you if you're hanging over a mountain cliff begging for help.......but another human can.
The Bible doesn't save but Jesus does. Then you have the mind that likes to reason, if a human did show up to help you and said I felt an urge to travel this way then heard your voice screaming you would dismiss that urge and just say thanks. He might reply God be with you, then you would throw him off the cliff.
The irony for all these morons claiming a Christian bent to the BSA is that they accept all religions. I'm an Agnostic, and am also an Eagle Scout. I never once claimed otherwise.
But hey, they can claim to be Christian. Did they forget the Episcopalians accept homosexuality? Oops!
The Boy Scouts of American is a disgusting organization for its bigotry and intolerance. What's next? Are they going to start denying awards based upon race or religion? This type of backward thinking has no place in 21st century American.
The BSA is a Bigotted organization also that they don't allow atheists, agnostics, or non-Christian members!
According to WIKI, the BSA is run by Mormons who usurped it in the early 1980s.
I wouldn't be a bit suprised if the Mormons were behind it! This has Cali Proposition 8 written all over it! Look at where I live...I should know!
Must be a lot of bigots in the world since anyone who doesn't approve of men using their waste facilities for sex is a bigot. Grow up. You lost. Take it like a man, no gay pun intended.
Timothy, we all use our "waste facilities" for sex. Urine is just as much a waste product as crap is.
Oh so true. How ill informed the bigots really are.
tim...you might want to have a discussion about your beliefs with your own kind. From some of the heterosexual porn I've seen, it seems they've all missed your memo on that.
Jeff, Mesa AZ
"The BSA is a Bigotted organization also that they don't allow atheists, agnostics, or non-Christian members!"
That's completely false.
Jeff, Mesa AZ
"I wouldn't be a bit suprised if the Mormons were behind it! This has Cali Proposition 8 written all over it! Look at where I live...I should know!"
It wasn't Mormons that tipped the scale on Prop 8 in California. It was fundamentalists and the Catholic Church with their strong influence on black and Latino voters that killed it.
And you live in Arizona, so how would you know?
Germany's Hitler Youths didn't allow gays, why should the Boy Scouts. Same thing
Hitler promoted gays, queers as they were called in those days.. Check your history bh.
Sorry, Blanca Pez, the Mormons certainly did tip the scales. The Catholic Church backed off long before it got out of hand with the Mormons. I live in Ca. and know this first hand. I worked for the opposition.
Jean:
if "promoted" means "sent to the concentration camps", then yes, he did.
He probably promoted them, right to the front line.
Jean, gays were sent to concentration camps right along with their Jewish brothers and sisters.
Actually, Roehm, who brought Hitler into the Nazi movement, and Hess, were both homosexuals.
Roehm ran the "Brownshirts" and surrounded himself with homosexuals to such a degree that Himmler complained that one rose through the ranks not by merit, but by homosexuality. It was Himmler that ran the "Death Camps", and Himmler that disliked homosexuals.
Hitler himself often stayed at homosexual flophouses, and was noted by the Vienna police file as being a homosexual, though indications are that he swung both ways. Hitler appears to have had no problem with homosexuals.
1) The BSA is not bigoted (and please note the spelling).
2) Atheists and agnostics do not meet basic eligibility requirements as they cannot take the Scout Oath or promise to follow the Scout Law--due to the aspects concerning religion. Why do you seem to think atheists/agnostics would wish to join an organization whose values they do not share?
3) You seem to know absolutely nothing of the BSA. There is no requirement to be a Christian. There are Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, etc., in the BSA.
4) I do not know what idiot decided to mark your comment as "highly rated" but they clearly have zero understanding of the subject matter or what sort of comment should be marked as "highly rated."
One problem with your contention: I'm an open agnostic theist, and I'm an Eagle Scout.
Since you didn't specify otherwise, am I to presume that those were your beliefs while you were a Scout? If so, then there is a problem with your claim. A theist believes in God (or a higher being). By definition, an agnostic neither believes nor disbelieves in God--so one cannot be both an agnostic AND a theist, you're either one or the other.
Definition of agnostic:
So, if you were agnostic, then please explain how exactly you addressed the "Duty to God" and "Reverence" issues? As I stated previously, an actual agnostic would be unable to do so, and for that reason agnostics generally are considered not to meet the membership criteria of the BSA.
Now, if you are a theist, then to which religion did you ascribe your beliefs in order to fulfill the "Duty to God" and "Reverence" issues? Did you belong to a church? You didn't specify when you became an Eagle Scout, but under the current requirements, you would need to provide the name of a pastor/priest/reverend/church leader willing to act as a reference as to your religious character (see req. # 2: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/eagle.aspx).
I wonder how long it will take for the usual cast of homophobic imbeciles to start carpet bombing this comment string with their vitriolic diatribe. And, as usual, MSNBC moderators are nowhere to be found.
5
4
3
2
1
It didn't take long, Oiley. But when you check the comment string you will note that the imbiciles who are carpet-bombing with vitriol are not who you thought they would be. Surprised? I'm not.
Funny that you think it is ok for the gay community to bully the boy scouts into changing their rules but don't think it is ok for others to state their opinions. HYPOCRITICAL!
The gay community is bullying the BSA? Really? From what I gathered from the article there were a good sized number of straights who supported this gay kid. Further, I am reading a lot of comments on this blog written by straights who are supporting their gay and lesbian counterparts. This isn't a straight vs gay issue. It's a tolerance vs intolerance issue. Again, lots of straights are expressing tolerance and support for the gay community.
Look, heres what it boils down to.
The BSA is a PRIVATE ORGANIZATION and they are entitled to have whatever rules they want to, rather some people agree with them or not. Now, I personally happen to disagree with this rule, but overall I think the BSA is a great organization. I myself have two boys will soon make Eagle themselves.
The bottom line is, if you do not like their rules, do not be a part of them and do not support them. But you do not have the right to force your values, morals or beliefs on other people.
You do not, no matter how just you think you are. BSA is a PRIVATE ORGANIZATION. Period.
Private. And that is the key here. They are a PRIVATE ORGANIZATION that believes in a certain set of values that they live by. Everybody is different and everybody is entitled to be.
I do not agree with the rule myself, but it is not my place to fight it, as I chose to accept their rules -all of them- when I put my boys in Scouts over 8 years ago. So the bottom line is, if you do not like their rules, find another outlet for your children.....
Homophobic isn't even a word oilmanMD, or does that tell us about your life style?
HOMOPHOBIC
ho·mo·pho·bi·a
n.
1. Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.
2. Behavior based on such a feeling.
[homo(sexual) + -phobia.]
homo·phobe n.
homo·phobic adj.
........................................
And from the Thesaurus:
Adj.
1. homophobic - prejudiced against homosexual people
discriminatory, prejudiced - being biased or having a belief or attitude formed beforehand; "a prejudiced judge"
..................................
Aren't you embarrassed now?
That takes PUBLIC FUNDS and benefits for preferential use of PUBLIC FACILITIES.
Period.
who cares what his sexual orientation is...he completed the requirements as required to be an eagle scout so give it to him....dam bigots
Unfortunately, he did not meet the requirements when he acknowledged that he did not believe in God and considered himself an Agnoist. In addition, the young man also acknowledged that he was homosexual ~ both of these traits are not considered actions that are supported by the BSA policy. I find it unfortunate that the young man did all that work with an organization that he did not truly agree with. Once he acknowledged that he did not believe in God ~ it was pretty much over for him in his persuit of an Eagle Scout Award. The fact that he is gay is just the spring board to all the hype. Unless, for some reason, the young man was under the impression that the Boy Scout code applied to everyone but him.
Exactly!
Mike, he did not meet all the requirements. One of the requirements is not be GAY, guess he blew that.
homosexuals are also bigots, bigot Mike.
To ALL of you who say that he did not follow the rules, Christ's teachings said that he did not come to follow the Jewish laws, that he came to fulfill them. Christ also taught Love was more than rules. Christ Himself said NOTHING about homosexuality.
Christ also quoted constantly from the Old Testament of the Bible and it was to confirm the teachings. Yes, he quoted " the rules".....
Christ may not have mentioned homosexuality but he did confirm marriage between a man and a woman. And there should have been enough spoken that you would have known that homosexuality was bad.....
but the bible does
Man, the idiocy here is astounding.
Christ's words on the matter were focused on man/woman, yes. But I challenge you to quote a single passage from him that forbids same-sex marriage.
I also challenge you to quote a single passage that condemns homosexuality throughout the entire Bible, when its meaning is taken using the original Hebrew or Greek. Problem is, you can't. Even Leviticus treats it as a social taboo only (using the original words), and a study by a Rabbi shows that this was because the Jews of the time had a literal belief in "be fruitful and multiply"; combined with the belief that sex was only for procreation, and every male had the duty to father children. Male/male sex did not father children, hence it was socially unacceptable.
I've torn up far better people than you on the original words. You haven't a leg to stand on.
Actually, he failed to complete requirements #2, 6, and 7 for attaining the rank of Eagle Scout. So, no, he doesn't rate it, and he won't get it.
Requirements for Eagle Scout: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/eagle.aspx
None of which has anything to do with whether he met the requirements of the BSA for attaining the rank of Eagle Scout--which he didn't. He failed to complete requirements #2, 6, and 7: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/eagle.aspx
I have young ones in grade school and the recruiting done for Boy Scouts, at least in my opinion, is often geared towards kids who might not have found a 'home' in other activities- sports, academic clubs (yes, there are Lego robotics and chess clubs in grade schools now), etc. It very-well could attract the type of kid they are trying to exclude and it makes it seem like they have created this situation for themselves. It's ridiculous. And it certainly does those children no favors to offer them a place where they finally feel comfortable, only to later reject them for those very traits that made them attracted to The Scouts in the first place. Shame on them.
Well said Malarson!! Organizations like the BSA should be about keeping kids off the streets and out of trouble; not spend time worrying about their sexual orientation, religious beliefs, etc....
I am all for banning the BSA from public schools since they openly discriminate...if they are going to discriminate they have NO PLACE in public schools, recruiting or anything else.
Hopefully the gay species will die off since they can't breed properly.
Binkie, you are such a troll. You are 14 years old either chronologically or emotionally so please grow up.
Mr. Binkie, given millions of years of human evolution, gays would have died off long ago if they were going to. I would get into many anthropological reasons why gays are, in fact, passing along genetic material just fine via examples such as allomothering of their siblings & siblings offspring, but I doubt you'd follow.
If only the stupid would die off, since they're hindering the rest of us.
PS: Gays aren't a separate species. I shudder to think what you must believe of humans with different skin colors.
I fully agree that's what should happen, but the bigots in Congress have passed two laws which give the BSA special access to schools even when that access directly violates local, state or federal non-discrimination laws.
http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/boyscouts.html
http://secular.org/issues/bsa/position
skrekk, so it's in your face for the homosexuals to you? Wow, are you one? Or are you just immoral? You sound like a one legged man in a butt kicking contest.
lie on a job appliation,,,fired...cheat on a test,,,,fail...drive drunk,,,jail...keep secrets from wife,,,divorced....not living a christian life,,,no scouting for you..
then read the manfest before you join
Shrekk: Hey.... it's only fair. Gay people have had access to schools for years as well.
Gay people are not trying to deny any rights to straight people, like many straights want to do to gays.
This is not the case of denying rights. The gays are free to start their own group. Too many people can't tell the difference. What the gays want to do is change the group that has already been formed through the sweat of others, and call it their own. In that case, it is considered robbery.
Mr. Binkie, you're suspended for a week for violating #5 of the Code of Honor. Avoid deathwishing populations.
That always kills me about this self identification built solely around how makes your d1#k hard. In that case I am a big breast sexual.
What is it that this kid does not understand ? He should have kept his mouth shut. We ALL have to accept rules that we may not like; that's life !
OK, good point. Let's go back to being colonies then. Someone call the Queen and tell her she can have us back.
Dindo, just what the slave owners in the south said.
Dindo you are so correct.. Daddy saw a chance to get into the headlines and took it... Fifteen minutes of fame.
The Boy Scouts are a dated institution better suited for the good old jingoistic hurrah for the British Empire days. Colonialism died but this goofy Victorian organizaton keeps going.
Homosexuals weren't slaves and to compare them with blacks in so stupid it rings of dumb and blind.
You wanna bet they weren't slaves. You know anything about the holocaust??? Besides, gays have been slaves in so many other ways. Oppressed, ostracized, stripped of every freedom in the past that they felt unsafe walking down the streets (still do in some places) and couldn't even speak of themselves or they might get the hell beat out of them or worse and then made to feel so worthless they wanted to kill themselves. So now tell me how that isn't like it was for black slaves....hmmmm? Who's dumb and blind? Wake the hell up.
The values associated with the Boy Scouts of America have been the same for many years, in fact 110 years since the organization began. As a private organization, they are entitled to have whomever they choose to have as a member. When he started scouts, he knew the value structure. Its not like they changed on him.
Yeah cause when you are 7 you are thinking i must be gay and after all I have read the rukes and it has said no gay people.
We are taking control. We own the Pentagon now. Marriage Equality is next (within the next year, The SCOTUS will approve it coast to coast.)..the BSA is nothing but a hate group that is forced to survive on tax payer welfare.
How can you be an atheist and gay? Seriously! By definition as a atheist you susbcribe to he theory of evolution. By evolution homosexuality as a trait would be removed for the populace by natural selection. I await an reasoned response...
instead of eagle, have a chicken hawk.
MLH, that is a lot of nonsense and bull@!$%#. But then you are from OK so I guess it is to be expected.
MLH in Ok...ask a reasoned question first please.
Hi MLH. Lesbian & Gay Americans have active reproductive systems just like everyone else. I have three fine boys. (Men).
One is a federal judge.
Evolution is not a question. You have a first century world-view, which I find very interesting...how do you mountain inbreds get internet access?
Grow the F up
Wow! You continue to spew hate!
MLH in OK
From your comment I take it you are not so savvy with genes and evolution. There are many situations where a trait can be passed on by a carrier and fully expressed in a non-reproductive individual. As there will also be reproductive capable individuals to pass the genes on.
However we can examine the evolutionary advantage of homosexuality, lets us the chimpanzee as our natural example.
In the chimpanzee society it is common for non-reproductive aunts to help raise their sister's baby and also non-reproductive males to carry out more frequent duties guarding the troop. It has been observed that these individuals tend not to reproduce and take on a mate of the same sex.
The advantage is they have more time to devote to these activities raising babies and guarding, the evolutionary advantage is they insure the passing on of 25% of their own genes should their siblings child live to reproductive age.
MLH,
There are several theories on why homosexuality might have been selected for.
As Krestov mentioned, passing on genes via kin selection is one. By investing in your sibling's children, whom you share some percentage of your genes with, you pass on your genes.
Other research also suggests that the genes that may contribute to homosexuality in males may actually be expressed in females in a way that makes them more desirable to the opposite sex. Thus, those women who have those genes will be more likely to find mates and reproduce and in turn pass on those genes that lead to homosexuality when expressed in males.
There's also just a very simple fundamental flaw in your logic. There are many many species that have non-reproducing members. For examples, bees -- only the queen bee mates and only with certain males. The rest of the bees are non reproducing and help in other ways. Yet, despite being non-reproducing, those worker bees are still present in the population. In certain monkeys species, a group only has a single mating pair. The rest of the monkeys in the group don't reproduce and instead help with care of the young. So, we know for a fact that just because a certain portion of a species is non-reproducing does not mean that those non-reproducing individuals will "die off" in the population -- because there are other ways to pass on those genes than via direct reproduction.
The kid earned his medal by producing quality work. His sexual orientation is irrelevant to this discussion. Judge the work and only the work.
That is not the way BSA works. Or for that matter, the way that many PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS work. Many groups have certain values or morals that they choose to live by and with BSA, they believe homosexuality to be immoral. Not only that, but Merit Badges and physical work is only one part of the whole picture. You are simplifying the entire process.
Right or wrong, they have this right since they are a PRIVATE ORGANIZATION.
Homosexualatheistmarine; glad you were never in my outfit, your a disgrace to the corps and I don't think you ever were a marine, just a homosexual want to be marine. No semper fi to you puptent idiot.
Sibohan - Um really explain how you can pass on a gene if you don't reproduce. I would LOVE to hear that. Sorry that's not the case. So if she picks the "gay" monkey to reproduce then its continued on because they REPRODUCED. ? See the problem with that is the "gay" monkey doesnt want to have sex with the female monkey so your entire argument is flawed. Choosing to have sex to reproduce is a complete flaw in the argument.
Perhaps we need to look at this for the brain problem it is and try and fix it instead of just the "oh well its ok" attitude. Funny we draw the line at kids or animals because thats too much but "gay" is simply fine except when you want to reproduce it doesn't work.... The second 2 guys can get pregnant without any outside help then no problem.....
I guess that's true, if ignorance, homophobia, and bigotry are your "values" and "morals".
"How can you be an atheist and gay? Seriously! By definition as a atheist you susbcribe to he theory of evolution. By evolution homosexuality as a trait would be removed for the populace by natural selection. I await an reasoned response..." ~MLH
Nice try at being intellectual...not buying it. Natural selection would have had nothing to do with homosexuals seeing as homosexuals are born all the time from straight parents. There seems to be a part of evolution you don't understand....just as you don't seem to understand that not all Atheists follow evolution either. Some don't follow anything and that's fine. And I'm not even Atheist but I will take up for one.
GayAtheistMarine, you're suspended for a day for violating #1 of the Code of Honor.
ben fox-5810785
You yourself have just shamed the uniform and what the Marines stand for.
Shame on you. Shame! You don't vow to protect just some American's you the one's you choose to you protect all Americans and carry out your role as ordered. There are many strong proud gay Marines.
Okay, let's judge the work. He failed to complete requirements #2, 6, and 7 for achieving the rank of Eagle Scout--no award for him. This really isn't a complicated matter.
Requirements: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/eagle.aspx
All those gay scouts don't deserve an award. What they deserve is a 12 inches dildo. Or if they prefer the real thing, I mean, 12 inches of boneless meat, I am available to provide it.
Does that mean you will sue the scouts because they won't let you be a leader?
These people know that the Boy Scouts prohibit homosexualism. They don't need the Boy Scouts. they have NAMBLA.
Trying to recruit more people into your chapter of NAMBLA, Bob?
It used to be an organization that I wanted my son to join. I thought they did so much good. However, I do not wish my son to be taught intolerance. It's a damn shame!
For an alternative that would still allow your son to learn valuable lessons about respect, leadership, confidence, and charity - you should look into the International Order of DeMolay. They are a great organization that has been around since 1919. I have been involved in the organization (through my involvement with it's sister organizations), and have always been impressed with the way it is run.
Cult, same here. My son is still an infant, so I hope the BSA figures their crap out before he hits grade school. Otherwise we won't be joining.
The BSA and its mission haven't changed, so did you ever share its values in the first place?
I would like to see all government support removed from the boy scouts. It is wrong for my tax dollars to support them. Some may say they don't get government support, but they do. For example, they have a $1 lease in Balboa Park in San Diego. They are bigoted and shouldn't be allowed to use this property.
That isn't federal support, take your tax dollar and choke yourself with it
sneaky, I don't see the word "federal" in Janet's post, only yours. If they are getting the $1 lease of the park through the city or county government, that is still tax support of a bigoted, discriminatory organization.
you are a @!$%# take that 1 dollars and jammd it
The BSA is a privately owned group. All people pay for that park, not just the gays. It's funny how only gay people can see that the park should only be open to what they believe. Would you say if christians supported that Park, then it should only be allowed to be open only to Christians?
Why don't you tell us again how bigoted gays really are?
earnest-1413306, you're suspended for a day for violating #1 of the Code of Honor.
19 deleted, MLH in OK calling someone - likely Andresen - 'the little queer'. Lose the antigay slurs.
You're suspended for a day for violating #5 of the Code of Honor.
26 deleted, JR11 with:
You're suspended for a week for violating #5 and #1 of the Code of Honor. Bad recent stretch.
Apparently the city of San Diego found it more advantageous to the taxpayers to let the BSA maintain and conserve the Park, instead of paying for Parks and Rec staff to do it. Those "evil" Scouts...the nerve of them saving you money AND maintaining public lands for all to enjoy.
Are you from San Diego? If so, and you feel there is another group more suited and able to maintain the park, then perhaps you should write to your local politicians and bring that group to their attention. In the meantime, the BSA has the same right to use public lands, and apply for leases to use those lands, as any other organization or citizen.
Come on, BSA, step into the 21st century or risk becoming further irrelevant. A person's sexual orientation has zero, zip, zilch, nada to do with their fitness to be a Boy Scout. The question should not even come up. Similarly I find it odd that you inquire about race on your application forms. Why?
It's hard to sell that popcorn when 1/2 of the customers walking out of the grocery store say "no way" simply because you discriminate against kids based on sexual orientation. Give your kids a break and stop it already.
@skeptical - that popcorn thing is a BIG one. I hate to have to pass those poor little boys by. When a parent is near I have a very hard time refraining from giving them a piece of my mind (I do for the sake of the little ones who often have no choice about whether they participate in scouting or not).
The boys were recently disinvited from a local grocery store where they usually sell that popcorn because of this issue and the complaints of customers. We live in a well of community and that location is a "sell out" location for GSA cookies and has been for BSA popcorn in the past.
Why do they ask it on pretty much much every application that you ever fill out? Why is it a problem when BSA ask's it, but not when Schools or the Government ask's, which they do on every application I've ever filled out?
I can't speak for other Troops, but for our Troop, Popcorn sales are irrelevant. They make up for less than 5% of our budget. And I know it's the same for alot of the Troops in my area.....
"Because everyone else does it" is a piss poor excuse, SFV.
My son's troop sold $25,000 worth of popcorn last year. 70% of the sales go back to the local organization. That is hardly "irrelevant" for a group of ~60 boys. At $291/kid that goes a long way to help pay for camping trips, field trips, and other fun outings for the scouts.
$25,000 worth? Damn. Thats some serious Popcorn sales. Theres 38 boys in my Troop and in truth, we barely even made an effort at it. I think we sold like $5000 worth and most of that was purchased by us parents just to shut Counsel up.
In truth though, we are a somewhat wealthy Troop, so it's easy for me to say it's irrelevant. I know it's not like that for most Troops.
Congrats on a great sale.....
For the first time ever i could not support the scouts this year.
At Walmart I was able to tell the mother I would not do it because of the scouts policies.
At Fred Meyer I couldn't say anything to the Dad without the boy hearing so I was quiet, but with a tear in my eye.
So your community is so bigoted and intolerant that it pressures the local grocery store to ban boys from selling popcorn outside of it? How enlightened and tolerant of you...I can feel the compassion and respect for the beliefs of others from here.
I applaud the BSA organization for standing by their beliefs and values. The rules haven't changed since Ryan joined. Sorry, but you knew that the BSA would not allow you to receive your Eagle if you are openly homosexual. Whether or not I agree with the policy, whether or not I agree with homosexuality is irrelevant. Bottom line is, the rules haven't changed. They are a PRIVATE organization and they do not have to allow openly gay individuals be members. Its like going to a PRIVATE higher education facility that doesn't allow its students to drink. You go there and you decide to drink. You know the results. You no longer would be permitted to be a student at that institution. Simple as that.
Is that the same beliefs and values that allowed them to keep secret files on people suspected of molestation for decades instead of reporting them to the police? Your values are disgusting, and you are a pig for trying to defend such nonsense. This guy earned his pin, and did FAR more to better the world than those scum "leaders."
It is very hard to agree that they are a PRIVATE organization when they hold a CONGRESSIONAL incorporation under US law...
Calling me a pig because I state a PRIVATE organization can choose to exclude someone from membership due to a direct contradiction to the membership policies? So do you feel the organzation is bad? Should the organization be allowed to establish its membership policy's or not? All I hear from your comment is redirect...redirect to another situation.
Stay on topic. The topic at hand here is whether the BSA should allow him to receive his Eagle because he openly admitted he was homosexual. The membership policies of the BSA strictly prohibit the membership of an openly gay young man. Whether or not you agree with the policy it is THEIR policy!
I have a son the became an Eagle Scout in May 2011 at the age of 15!! This is a private organization that requires an oath. If you notice the part about being morally straight I think that "coming out of the closet" is really not morally straight. If he was so proud about being gay, then why in the world did he wait until the very end of this to admit that he was gay. And if you really want to know why this so wrong then just pick up any Holy Bible and read if for yourself. This is quoted from the NIV
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (NIV).
On my honor . . . By giving your word, you are promising to be guided by the ideals of the Scout Oath.
I will do my best . .
Try hard to live up to the points of the Scout Oath. Measure your achievements against your own high standards and don't be influenced by peer pressure or what other people do.
To do my duty to God . . .
Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.
and my country . . .
Help keep the United States a strong and fair nation by learning about our system of government and your responsibilities as a citizen and future voter.
America is made up of countless families and communities. When you work to improve your community and your home, you are serving your country. Natural resources are another important part of America's heritage worthy of your efforts to understand, protect, and use wisely. What you do can make a real difference.
and to obey the Scout Law; . . .
The twelve points of the Scout Law are guidelines that can lead you toward wise choices. When you obey the Scout Law, other people will respect you for the way you live, and you will respect yourself.
To help other people at all times; . . .
There are many people who need you. Your cheerful smile and helping hand will ease the burden of many who need assistance. By helping out whenever possible, you are doing your part to make this a better world.
To keep myself physically strong, . . .
Take care of your body so that it will serve you well for an entire lifetime. That means eating nutritious foods, getting enough sleep, and exercising regularly to build strength and endurance. it also means avoiding harmful drugs, alcohol, tobacco, and anything else that can harm your health.
mentally awake, . . .
Develop your mind both in the classroom and outside of school. Be curious about everything around you, and work hard to make the most of your abilities. With an inquiring attitude and the willingness to ask questions, you can learn much about the exciting world around you and your role in it.
and morally straight.
To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance.
Enough of the Bible thumping! ENOUGH! Have you read the Bible? It is riddled, teeming, overflowing with stories that promote slavery, polygamy, infanticide, incest, and more! It doesn't mean we ascribe those beliefs today. Get over yourself.
@fromthesouth
1. That translation you used is piss poor.
2. You can't selectively apply laws from the old testament, particularly when it's clearly established in the new testament that the birth of Jesus fulfilled the 'old laws' of the old testament. This is why you can eat shell fish, not have to put your infant son through a bris, mix meat and dairy in the same meal, etc. etc. etc. That any "Christian" would only apply that one supposed rule from the old testament (which is misinterpreted, anyway), but not all the others, is the altogether bigoted.
3. There is nothing about the Scouts that require anyone to use that version of the bible, or any bible. There are many denominations and religions recognized by the scouts, and many of those aren't bigoted institutions (like BSOA is).
Very succinctly put. I don't understand this "coming out of the closet" bit, either. Did this boy get caught in a compromising position or something? I hope NOT with a younger scout. That's the thing. A boy can't get any older than 17 years old in a scout troop. That puts this Ryan Andresen, almost an adult, in a de facto position of authority among children. It makes for a dangerous situation from the youth protection standpoint.
EinSt: just to be fair. All of the straight men are also in de facto positions of authority among children. It makes for a dangerous situation from the youth protection standpoint given that the vast majority of pedophiles are straight males.
olblahdioblada, read Romans 1:22-28 and educate yourself about a book you know nothing about.
@Sialia
That is true. However, my reference to "youth protection" was in the context of the BSA youth protection policies (yes, they actually have established policies). For example, an adult cannot be alone with a boy during troop activities (not even riding in a car to and from). Boys, on the other hand, are supposed to maintain a buddy system (including sharing a tent), again for their own protection. I can just imagine the headache Ryan's scoutmaster has endured. The bottom line, I don't see how BSA can make an exception and still continue to be BSA for those who hold it dear to heart.
You need an education in the original language.
Paul is trying to chastise the people for mixing Christian beliefs with pagan rites. This occurred shortly after the Emperor cast out all non-Christians from the city proper of Rome. As such, many pagans professed Christianity while maintaining their prior practices, including sexual worship. In Paul's writings, he found this to be proof that they weren't truly worshiping the god of Christianity.
In addition, Paul uses very particular words when he speaks out against the females and males. The word translates to "against the norm" in its closest actual translation. Taken non-sexually, it forbids men from having long hair. Taken sexually, it forbids anything but the missionary position. Paul is widely considered to be one of the most prudish persons in the New Testament, raised on Jewish traditions and considering himself a follower of the new Christianity (remember, Paul never met Jesus but in a vision no one could correlate).
Romans 1 was not addressed to the general public, it was addressing the Jews.
The clue is:
The ONLY people that knew God were the Jews because they were His people.
That an organization obtained a charter from Congress does not alter the fact that it is a private organization. You just might want to look up the subject sometime.
So much ignorance and blind hatred on these NBC boards that it is astounding sometimes.
Gee, I wonder if those guys all got the Cookie Race merit badge?
I have 2 grandsons in the scouts; one Boy Scout, the other a Cub Scout. They work very hard for their individual badges, dedicate a lot of time to the community and to their respective troops. I forget now where I read about how hard it is to attain the Eagle Scout designation and the small percentage of boys who actually make it to this level. Gay or not, this is an honor that this young man has earned through dedicating time and effort into something he strongly believes in. I tip my hat to him.
Part of being a scout is maintaining good moral character. All the other attributes are in vain without that quality present in the young man.
Morality does not require adherence to the Christian view of morality.
It may be legal for the Boy Scouts to ban gays from participating in their organization, but it is immoral. We should be teaching our youth to stand up to bigotry, discrimination, and injustice, not accept it.
Nothing immoral about the BSA standing up for their beliefs. This world is going to hell fast.
No, your camp is bigoted against normal people!
Amen freedom1st and ogelthorpe; the immoral want to rule the world but, can't do that from the hot place they are headed. They use words they don't have a clue about, if we are bigots so are they, it just makes sense in our language. God Bless Both:
Isn't it odd? I think people who insult, criticize, judge and finger point are the ones engaging in 'deviant' behavior and they are forcing their ugliness on those who oppose it. It truly is a matter of perspective.
I think only u are odd. Go away.
Gary you are odd, just go away, it plays both ways friend:
BSA gets government funding?
Then it must stop.
Call your representative and tell him they must stop funding the BSA or your vote is history.
Actually they do not get Government funding they are a private group. They follow a religious moral code That they have since the created the boys scout. The boys scouts are not set to one religion they just do not believe a man should be with a man. They have a set of rules and restrictions that they follow and enforce, and they have the right to restrict gays from being in the boy scouts. Its the same as trying to join MENSA or they skull and bones or they masons If you want to join there club you have to abide by there rules. Why is it so hard to understand that.... Its no different then telling a poor man he cant join the country club because he is poor...
Just sayin..
All the newly found gays are reading these comments. What a trip! Stay in the closet. You survived 2012 yrs in there. Who the H cares? Just stay away from me. That gay Canadian wrecked my dreams. OMG a gay canadian. The world is doomed.
As a straight male, of course you do not care...just like a typical male...just care about yourself...how selfish....gays and lesbians are everywhere and WE ARE COMING OUT...whether you like it or not...we are not interested in any of you straights, so why are you so bothered? Open your heart and mind...you sound like an ignorant bigot....Gays and lesbians make this world great and they are not going anywhere. Get used to it. So typical how you straights (not all I realize, just the ignorant ones) are such fools living in fear...ohhhhh, scared cowards...get a life...times are changing. You will get called out everytime you say ignorant things about gays....
False. The BSA still gets quite a bit of taxpayer support, although these days it's usually at the local level through free or subsidized rent of government-owned facilities.
At least the army is no longer letting the bigots hold their Jamborees on army bases.
The BSA also has a Congressional charter, and even receives special exemption from non-discrimination laws:
http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/boyscouts.html
http://secular.org/issues/bsa/position
And stop funding all sexual deviates including gays!
Than why the need to join a PRIVATE ORGANIZATION that believes being gay is wrong?
GaryofMontreal, you don't pay U.S. taxes so your opinion is mute, and my tax dollars pay for the killing of babies, then that has to stop, it pays for homosexuals to get special rights and that has to stop. Get a life and grow up.
I'm afraid homosexuality is considered natural, not a deviation. Please try again never.
Wrong.
And I'm sure you can list these "special rights", right?
You first, kiddo.
ERIN:
1st of all, I am not Anti Gay and I have said that a thousand times on this post alone. I have defended the fact that Gays should be allowed every single right that straight people are, up to and including the title of "Marriage". So it seems you do not comprehend very well, as I have made myself very clear on that.
However, I also believe that people should have the right to seperate themselves from people that they do not want to be around, for whatever their reasons. I'm sorry, but who the @!$%# are you or anybody else to tell me that I have to accept you into my Private Organization? An organization that is based on PRIVATE VALUES that every member is expected to follow?
I'm done being civil about this. So point blank, who the @!$%# are you to tell me who I have to be around? I dont care what my reasons are. If I do not want to be around you, who the @!$%# are you to force yourself on me? What gives you the right to force yourself on me?
Millions have died to give me the right to stay the @!$%# away from you, if I so choose. BSA chooses to stay away from homosexuality and they absolutely have the right to do so if they so choose. It is against the values that they hold. Period.
So no matter how you are trying to twist it, the fact is you are trying to force your values on other people just because you think you are right. Well, sorry Chickie, but just because your value system works for you doesn't mean it works for everybody else. Other people have the right to have their own set of morals or values and just because they don't measure up to what you want doesn't give you the right to tell them they have to change.
What it does is give you the right to get the @!$%# away from them......
This is disgusting. Being gay does not mean he does not abide by his "Duty to God"!!!! I have lots of Gay friends that are believers in God and Jesus, go to church and live happy lives. This boy has that same right and then some. If the Boy Scouts base everything on "Duty to God" then they must know that God forgives and it is not up to the Boy Scouts to pass judgement on this boy and other's because of their sexual orientation. My husband is an Eagle Scout and he agrees. He is disgusted by this as well!!!!
"...the same rights and then some." Just what does that mean? Are you saying that because he is a homosexual he is "entitled" to more than others?
Many people are missing a VERY important point. This scout and all Scouts that EARN the badges and accomplish all the requirements are truly people that are proven leaders and have excelled above the vast majority of their peers, Gay or not. Until you are educated in what it takes to accomplish the rank of Eagle Scout, you cannot have an idea of the level of determination and self discipline it takes to get there. We are talking about the very best attributes that only a few of us could imagine to aspire to.
The Hypocrisy of the BSA in denieing the Scouts the fruits of their achievements is a social crime. The fact that they base their prejudices on irrational hatred that has caused more suffering in history than any other cause is as bad as actually torturing the children by denying them the fruits of their labor.
The message sent to the children is that it is ok to cheat, and otherwise harm other people because they are different.
I challenge each of you self righteous hypocrites to research the requirements for Eagle Scout and ask yourself if you could or would at any time be able to accomplish these requirements?
The hateful Hebrew laws of Moses were designed to control a group of people in the form of his tribes of traveling Jews. He said what was law, to break his laws were sin, the wages of sin is death, and to break his laws were to die. The Romans brought these laws to Christians and Protestants through Cannon Laws, and here we see the same dreadful hatred perpetrated today on children.
Shame on you all for using Jesus to justify your hate.
Lazarus
The liberals carry on as if gays are the only non-conventional sex behavioral group. There are other variations waiting in the wings watching how this develops so they could follow suit thereafter. If it is not fair to one special interest group then it would be unfair to others. Where does it stop!
I am a very active Scout parent and both of my boys will make Eagle. I am also a Council Member. So I know what is required.
And what I know is this. Merit badges and physical work is only one aspect to achieving the rank of Eagle. You must also follow all the rules, values and morals that BSA bases their system on. All of them, not just the ones that are convienent for you.
This young man does not -by BSA policy- meet the requirement to be a Scout, let alone an Eagle Scout.
Period.
Personally, I am against this rule. However, I accpted this when I signed my children up. It is what it is and, well, although I disagree with this one area, I still firmly believe that they are a great organization and I will support them long after my boys have left.
You can't always have your cake and eat it too.....
What God lovebnamom? The god of self, the god of humanism, the god of evil called satan, sounds like that god to me.
Unhappy
This is going to make you even more unhappy.
That is a BIG negative.
They are NOT a Christ based organization.
They do require a belief in a higher power.
BUDDHISTS have been scouts since 1920 and many Buddhists do not believe in a supreme being.
MUSLIMS are scouts.
There are also Christians that accept Homosexuality and have GAY ministers.
LUTHERANS are scouts.
I certainly did not mention them all.
But it is important to realize Scouting is open to ALL faiths and ALL believers.
The Scouts make an oath to be Reverent. Did you ever read the rest of that law?
* A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.
Obviously many people of faith have different beliefs about Gays than the BSA does. In fact many Gays believe in a higher power.
What we have is a Scouting Leadership that does NOT respect the beliefs of others - The BSA refuses to obey their very own Laws!
You cannot worship God or Jesus and commit a deliberate sin everyday. Too many people believe that they just have to be in attendance and all is forgiven....nobody gets to God without going through Jesus,and for that you need a strong personal relationship with Jesus. Going against God's word is not a good way to earn that special relationship. God made Adam & Eve, and a big part of his plan was marriage and bearing children.
The scouts honor God and believe in strong morals, so that leaves being gay out of the picture.
but but but but but Gays are fukking faggots!
...this is all beyond insane...the BSA cannot hold up under this onslaught...it was reported today that for the first time in U.S. history, Protestants comprise a minority...there is a seismic change going on in America and it's obvious: the white, Christian majority who have historically dominated national politics and social mores is in decline and a more secular, socially aware and inclusive society, much like what the Constitution of the United States envisioned, is emerging...this is the new paradigm...organizations such as the BSA with their discriminatory and just plain dumb policies will surely be marginalised..."adapt or die"...
Well, then we'll die. And once again we'll have one activity less for our children, just because a certain group with a certain agenda does not like the rules and whined to have them changed.
I always hear the whole "tolerance" thing from people, but that only seems to apply when it's YOU who wants tolerance. The concept that you have to be tolerant for their beliefs too is beyond you. Does the concept that people are different mean anything to some of you people?
Some people are gay. Some people are straight. That is, and always will be, a subject that seperates people. Now, I am not Anti-Gay. I personally think the BSA is wrong in this particular issue. However, I do believe that they have the right to be against Homosexuality if they choose to be. Sorry, but the fact is, to many many people, the life you lead is an alternative one. It is not the norm'.
Again, I personally disagree. However, I do believe that people have the right to believe as they do and I believe that they should have the right to live their lives within the value system that they have and believe in.
I also firmly believe that yo do not have the right to cram your lifestyle down my throat. It really is simple. I'm not going to join "Gays R Us" when I know their values are to be gay. I'm not against being gay, but it isn't the way I want to live my life personally.
BSA is absolutely no different. They absolutely have the right to seperate themselves fom a lifestyle that they consider wrong. You simply do not have the right to force your lifestyle on other people and thats all your doing. You are trying to force people to accept something that they do not agree with.
Where is the tolerance you always speak of?
BSA isn't out there campaigning against you. They are not out there trying to bury you in the sand. What they do is simple. They choose to seperate themselves from you.
It's one thing is they are out there just calling for your demise. Then I would understand the fight. But thats not the case here. They silently seperate themselves from a lifestyle they disagree with and they live their lives accordingly.
Yet you have to try and force yourselves into it and then you cant understand why things like this Boys case happen.
The bottom line is, BSA has been here long before you were born and they will be here long after you and I are dead. And they will be because there will always be alot of people who believe in the same value system as BSA does. As I do, mostly.
Just as you want us to accept you and your lifestyle, you also have to accept other peoples. Tolerance is a two-way street. And heres a small tip for you.
Forcing yourselves on me will not make me accept you. It will just make me torpedo you from the dark when you least expect it.....
Wrong. The BSA respects the beliefs of others, and their right to have those beliefs. However, it does not have to SUPPORT those beliefs within its organization. Respect for the beliefs of others does not equate to supporting or accepting those beliefs as being correct or true.
The only beliefs that matter in the context of this situation are those of the BSA--the beliefs which every prospective and active member promises to uphold and obey when they join. Don't want to follow the BSA's guidelines and beliefs? Don't apply for membership.
That is the point: while the BSA is apparently "against homosexuality," they are going against ALL of the other Boy Scouts affiliates in the world, since the BSA is the ONLY Boy Scout affiliate that discriminates against homosexuals. Why would ONE Boy Scout affiliate choose to include in its criteria for membership something that NO other affiliate does? Why would the Boy Scouts of America, of all of the affiliates worldwide, choose to be so discriminatory?
What exactly is being "crammed down your throat"? Tolerance? It sounds like you need it "crammed down your throat," or you won't do it.
If you were gay, there would be no question of how you "want" to live your life; you would be living your life as a gay person. Period.
Nothing and nobody are being "forced" on you; neither is acceptance. It is all about equal treatment, because gays don't give two @!$%#s about the acceptance of bigots like you.
Sorry bub, homosexuality ain't a sin. Try again!
Jim
WRONG!!!!!
The BSA is NOT a Christ based organization.
They are open to all faiths, the only criteria being there is a belief in a higher power.
Now they are saying all faiths are welcome as long as they abide by the BSA leadership's personal flavor of Christianity.
They do not respect the beliefs of others when they demand others must agree to their personal religious beliefs.
What they are saying is; you can believe what you want, but what we believe is the only important belief.
That Is Not Respect.
Besides Jim, the bible never says anything about someones orientation. The bible speaks about sexual acts, and there is no indication this young man is anything other than a virgin.
What exactly in that quote were you claiming was incorrect, and based on what facts?
Please point to where in the post to which you responded that I said it was.
Correct, although that is not the sole criteria for membership.
There is no perceivable factual basis for that statement. Your evidence?
Incorrect assertions within the statement, but the statement would be correct if the assertions were true. Care to try again?
Nice try, but not exactly. The BSA respects his right to hold differing beliefs. However, if his beliefs are incompatible with the BSA, then he is not eligible for membership. You seem to be confusing respect with acceptance. Respecting the beliefs of another does not equate to having to accept those beliefs as true or valid, nor does an organization have to alter its beliefs or membership criteria to suit the personal preferences of a member. Members must meet criteria for eligibility and maintain their eligibility in order to be members. That applies to any organization, not just the BSA.
The Bible isn't directly relevant to this discussion, actually, nor did I bring it up in my post. The BSA organizational policies governing membership eligibility, codes of conduct, and requirements for advancement are the relevant items. Mr. Andresen failed to maintain his eligibility, and made statements that he disagreed with elements of the Scout Oath and Scout Law--both of which he is required to demonstrate that he upholds and lives by in his daily life in order to successfully complete requirement #2 for attaining the rank of Eagle Scout.
You might want to look at the requirements for becoming an Eagle Scout: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/eagle.aspx.
And also the requirements for being a member of the BSA: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Membership/Registration.aspx (click on "New Youth Application" under "Application Forms" at the bottom of the screen)
Fair enough
The rest of my post answered that.
Fair enough they are either trying to associate with a certain segment of Christian thought or perhaps they are claiming to be Muslim.
There are several Christian Organizations that have no problem with Gays, the Scouts are saying their beliefs don't matter.
I don't know of any Muslims that accept Gays so perhaps you are right, the Scouts are an Mohammed Based Organization.
Nevertheless they do not respect the beliefs of others by being prejudice.
The Anti Gay stance is based on their religious prejudice.
The Scouting position is that Gays are not good role models - What do you suppose the basis for that is?
Was Socrates a good role model?
How about Greg Louganis, Lord Byron, Friedrich Wilhelm August Heinrich Ferdinand von Steuben (Inspector General/Major General of the Continental Army during the Revolutionary war) and many others.
Many are forced to remain silent, the list of Gay role models would actually be quite long.
The only reason they are not viewed as good role models is because of RELIGIOUS prejudice.
But go for it explain how they are not good role models.
Many religions are totally accepting of gays, it is part of their beliefs.
There are also Christians that accept Homosexuality and have GAY ministers.
By not accepting their beliefs they are not respecting their beliefs. It is what it is. If they did not have those groups in their organization then you would have a point. Since they do have them as part of their organization they are not being respectful.
Your link doesn't work.
Maybe you can explain:
What statements?
and
The Scouts hate him for how he was born - and you are concerned Gays are bad Role Models!
they dont believe in "duty to god"... they believe in duty to their god, to their religion... it isn't enough for them that you love god and god loves you, if you're not part of their bigoted and hateful religion, you're useless to them.
A private organization has the right to exclude, it's already been ruled upon in SCOTUS.
Create the gay scouts and deny any straight boys... if that will make you all feel better. But unless SCOTUS overturns their ruling (which is incredibly rare) this debate is over.
Why does the debate have to be over? As Americans we have a duty to debate and argue over a policy that we disagree/agree with, whether it be a law the government passes, or the membership policy of an orginization. Simply ending the debate because someone said it was is wussing out. By the way, creating a gay scouts and denying straights entry into it is as wrong as the BSA denying gays admission. This is an arguement over what is more important, the rights and morals of individuals, or the rights and morals of orginizations.
Both have Rights and in the case of PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS, I firmly believe that the groups rights are more important than the individuals.
I am a firm believer in Marijuana use. It serves many uses and purposes. So with that in mind, tell me this. Since you seem to think an individual has the right to force themselves on any and all organizations that they want, i'm assuming you think it's okay for me to go into an AA/NA Meeting and blow a joint while I drink a beer? Hey, smoking and drinking is my right, so that would be okay, right?
@!$%# no it's not right. The bottom line is, people create PRIVATE groups so they can be around people who think and act like they do. I mean, i'm sorry, but who the @!$%# are you to dictate to me what my group has to do? Again, this is a PRIVATE ORGANIZATION that we are talking about here. I have the right to seperate myself from people and/or lifestyles that I consider against what I want in my life.
I absolutely have that right. You simply do not have the right to force yourself on my PRIVATE organization or for that matter, on my life. I have the right to be against what you do or how you live your life.
Again, I can understand the fight if BSA was out there openly campaigning to have gay people exterminated. Then I'd get it. But thats not the case here. They simply seperate themselves from it. But no, thats not good enough for you. You want BSA out there dancing at one of your parades.
Not gonna happen and I for one will stand by them on this, even though I personally disagree with them on this issue. I'd be there because I believe that people have the right to have private organizations that abide by the rules or values that they want to have in their lives.
SFV
All would be OK if they renamed themselves to be the Sexually Straight Scouts.
BOY Scouts are for Boys. Some boys are born straight some are born gay and some are born bi. They are all boys.
Now if they were having sex that might change things. Then their Actions would be similar to you lighting up.
For instance just because you want to smoke a bong hit doesn't keep you out of a AA/NA Meeting. The ACT of smoking would.
There is no indication this young man has ever had sex. The Scouts are banning him for how he was born not because of something he has done.
THAT IS WRONG, no matter how you spin it.
<<<sigh>>>
Look, and no matter how you spin it, to some people same sex relationships are wrong and they have a right to seperate themselves from it if they so choose. They absolutely have this right, no matter how much you try to say they don't. BSA is a PRIVATE ORGANIZATION and they are entitled to have any rules they want, including discrimination due to sexuality. This is a Right given to them by the Constitution of the United States of America. Millions have died to give them this right, even though alot of them wouldn't like this anymore than you do.
Look, I understand that maybe you and many others may not have any Faith in God or any other Higher Power. Or maybe the Faith you have differs from that of BSA, even if it's a Christian Faith. I don't know. But I for one consider myself a Christian and as far as i'm concerned, I think God would just want us to Love, regardless of who that love may be directed towards.
I am against this BSA Policy.
However, I am more for the freedoms that we have in this Nation. One of those freedoms is the freedom to seperate ourselves from people that we disagree with, for whatever reasons.
And look, I also agree that BSA should not receive any Sweetheart deals or Tax Breaks from any Government, be it Local, State or Federal. BSA should be taxed or what-have-you just like any other Organization. And I am a full time active Scout parent and I still agree with that.
And with that said.....
BSA does and should have the right to run their PRIVATE ORGANIZATION according to their values and/or rules, even if that includes open discrimination against people that they view as against what they stand for.
Yes, you and everybody else absolutely have the right to boycott or protest BSA. Maybe you can make them see the light and change their policies. However, only if they choose to for their own reasons. It can not and should not be the law. The second that the Government can dictate what PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS can or can not do is the same second that you should be ashamed to call yourself an American.....
The problem is I was taught to respect the beliefs of others. Even though that is a Scouting Law it is how my family lived. It is supposedly a scouting law.
I was in Scouts in the 60's and I am appalled by the disintegration of scouting.
They have forgotten their own laws.
They teach kids to be prejudice.
They lie and deceive.
The scouts I knew and respected are dead, I would be embarrassed to be associated with the scouts of today.
They have become a hateful organization.
Take your kids camping. Teach them GOOD morals. You really don't need a manual to tell you how to do that. Just do it.