E-mail updates
Follow on Twitter
Subscribe to RSSOne in five Americans -- and one in three of adults under 30 -- is religiously unaffiliated, the highest percentage ever, according to a Pew Research Center study released Tuesday.
Over the past five years, the study found, the number of religiously unaffiliated adults has increased from slightly over 15 percent to just under 20 percent, a figure that includes more than 13 million self-described atheists and agnostics, as well as almost 33 million adults who do not identify themselves with a particular religion.
Survey takers were able to choose from a list that included more than a dozen possible affiliations, including “Catholic,” “Protestant,” "Orthodox," “don't know” and “nothing in particular.”
But, according to the nationwide survey, many of the 46 million unaffiliated adults or so-called "nones" are spiritual or religious in some way:
- 68 percent say they believe in God.
- 58 percent say they feel a connection with nature and the Earth.
- 37 percent say they think of themselves as "spiritual" but not "religious."
- 21 percent say they pray daily.
Most "nones" said religious institutions can benefit communities through their social outreach, but an overwhelming majority thinks religious organizations are too focused on rules, money and power and too involved in politics.
Pew says the rise of the religiously unaffiliated is mainly due to a generational shift, with 32 percent of adults under 30 saying they're religiously unaffiliated, compared with only 9 percent of those aged 65 and older.
Politically, the "nones" skew heavily toward the Democratic Party, making up 24 percent of the Democratic and Democratic-leaning registered voters, the largest religious constituency. Black Protestants at 16 percent, white mainline Protestants at 14 percent and white Catholics at 13 percent are some of the other large religious groups skewing Democratic.
With social issues such as same-sex marriage taking center stage this election season, 73 percent of "nones" say they support gay marriage and 72 percent support legal abortion.
According to Pew, a counterpoint to the rise of the religiously unaffiliated has been a dip in the share of the population that identifies as Protestant. That figure now stands at 48 percent, down from 53 percent in 2007. It is the first time the number of Protestants has fallen significantly below 50 percent, according to Pew. This is a continuation of a long-term trend, as the Protestant population has been declining since the early 1990s.
The number of Catholics, which now stands at 22 percent, has been steady for a few years, the study shows, owing in part to immigration from Latin America.
More content from NBCNews.com:
- Sandusky insists he's innocent, alleges conspiracy
- Military suicides: Can fish oil help?
- Visit Detroit at your own risk, police union warns
- Detroit police chief resigns amid sex scandal
- Wedding brawl aftermath: Man charged with assaulting cop
- Video: Kony 2012 filmmaker: ‘I was not in control of my mind’
Follow US news from NBCNews.com on Twitter and Facebook
Leave a Comment:
I hope the Republican party takes note of this study and realizes they need to reform themselves back to the party they were decades ago - small government, fiscal responsibility, not fighting overseas, etc.
Otherwise, their "deal with the Devil" they made in the 70s/80s to accommodate the "religious right" by focusing on social issues is going to mean a continued decline in importance..and our country needs at least two contending parties.
Agree on principle but not sure the Republicans have anything to offer us at this point. Both parties need to get their acts together but at least the Democrats acknowledge the rights of individuals to live their lives as they see fit.
"...but an overwhelming majority thinks religious organizations are too focused on rules, money and power and too involved in politics."
This. Organized religion is downright evil, and putting a normal person the position as [insert deity name]'s cleric is just asking for trouble.
bet that same group also thinks;
but an overwhelming majority thinks political organizations are too focused on rules, money and power and too involved in religion."
1 in 5 Americans actually have a clue
Alex- I totally agree with that quote. Organized religion is way too focused on money, power and politics. I'd be much more inclined to join one if they focused on helping people
I would disagree that religion is necessarily evil. I think that organized religion has the potential to do good on a large scale, but is falling short of that potential in many cases.
Unaffiliated doesn't mean they don't believe in God. I believe this is just the beginning. People are leaving their churches because of extremist's that have taken the Churches over. And the Churches telling people how to vote. What News to watch. What music to listen to. How to think. Many Churches have become more Cult like in the last 20 years and anyone in the Church who doesn't agree gets pushed out because the fear they might influence the sheeple in a way contrary to the new Church Dogma. Church used to be a place forgiveness and guidance, now they want to run your life in every way and sell your vote to the Koch Brothers and News Corp.
From what I hear the more religious a country is the worse it is doing note the middle east vs the highly secular countries in Europe.
The younger generation of people know when they are being taken advantage of by all these religious groups = charlatans.
None of these big religious organizations help others other than themselves to your money.
It's time to start taxing all church and religions in America, better yet, shutting them down and converting all these huge buildings into shelters would be a much better thing to do for your communities and the people.
I'm a fiscal and social conservative and I'm not religious. Just because the "moral majority" has hijacked the GOP doesn't mean all conservatives are religious, or you have to be religious to be conservative.
We absolutely will need a new party for when the Tea Party implodes the Repubs, how about the "Freedom Party" where you keep religion out of government (like our forefathers wanted), keep contraception and choice safe and legal (more abortions are performed and more wome die in countries where it is illegal), Legalize and regulate all drugs (like the Portugal Model which leads to lower drug abuse), Requires a balanced budget (except in cases of a declared state of war), Simplify the tax code (all income over $10k is taxed, only 2 -3 tax "brackets" so everyone pays a "fair share") eliminate corporate "personhood" status (and the lobbying/PAC's giving unlimited funds to political parties), Reduce welfare and corporate subsidies, require a national energy policy (we have never had one) and develop comprehensive reforms to retirement and healthcare services/systems.
I can't believe in this day and age that people still believe in some cloven hoofed guy that tempts you with evil then takes your soul to hell to toeture you forever!
Their involvement in politics is going to backfire. Also, churches now are about money, money, money. So it's time to pull the tax deduction privilege. Many churches have turned into private clubs, with recreational facilities, auditoriums, dining halls. They own fleets of vehicles for taking members on missions to beach and mountain retreats (aka summer camp or vacation), they even pay for flights to places to far to drive. Ostensibly they do charitable good works like roofing poor folks houses etc. But the drive passed or fly over hundreds if not thousands of places to do charitable works to get to their destination. Meanwhile, another church far off is coming to their area to do charitable works. They are passing each other constantly. Spending tremendous amounts of cash on transportation that could be used to help people in their local area. They have collected so much money they cannot spend it all on their mission trips so they've gotten onto politics. For the reason they have turned their churches into private clubs, they need to give up the tax exemptions. The taxpayers should not be subsidizing the recreation and enjoyable trips especially since there are plenty of needy in everybody's hometown.
Excellent comment Ron! Totally agree with you, signed the flaming liberal mom from SC
Like Greece and Spain? These countries are near financial ruin, as well as other European countries that are in financial trouble.
Agreed Ron.
No religious affiliation does not equal no religion.
Catydid, did you read the article?? Over half of the people that have no religious affiliation still believe in God. You atheists are definitely in the minority! According to statistics, most of the so-called atheists are young. I was also an atheist in my younger days. I look back at that part of my life and laugh. My life is so much more filled with love, peace and joy since I said "yes" to the Lord. May you also be blessed with faith. BTW, I am not filled with fear of hell and eternal punishment. I love the Lord and trust in Him. He has made my life so much more beautiful and I am so grateful for His blessings. God bless!
The number one reason I left the church long ago. It is no longer about religion or God, it is now just another wing of the GOP.
But is anyone surprised by this trend? Religious institutions are full of hypocrisy. They preach about "family morals" while molesting your children behind your back. They scream about the government in their lives, while dictating how you live your own life. They cry about homosexuals "forcing" a lifestyle on them, while coming to knock on your door and attempt to force their lifestyle on you.
I am glad to see that more people are realizing they do not need an institution to be good, they can be a good person just because that is who they are.
Ted Kennedy was a deeply religious guy. He pushed the amnesty passed under Reagan to help his fellow Catholics.
KJNG... If we eliminate corporate "person-hood" status (and the lobbying/PAC's giving unlimited funds to political parties), Everything else you said would automatically happen because the politicians would revert to doing what the voters want.
I think a high school class should be taught that teaches people where their Judeo Christian beliefs came from. Christians believe that what they believe comes from their omnipotent Bible, but Christianity comes from ancient religions. That scary old snake in the garden of eden came from Mithraism and the holy trinity cam from the Egyptian gods. It would be a facinating history class.
Vermontguy - yeah, and I hope idiots that think religion doesn't have a play in politics in this country can at least do rudimentary math. Duh Gomer - 1 out of 5 being "unaffiliated" MEANS that about 256 million out of 320 million ARE!!! In other words, the religious affiliated out-number the atheists, believe in nothings, or too stupid to think that anything is larger than themselves about 4 to one. Ever been in a a bar fight? 4 to one means you get your friggin ass kicked unless you're superman. Also, in 2008, about 123 million people voted; less than half of the total that are religiously affiliated. Articles like this are an insult except to those that can hear the air blowing in one ear and out the other. Enough said.
Good for you, Linda! To each their own and if God has filled you with love and joy, then you are a better person for it.
Linda, when I was in my youth I was Christian, but by age 16 I got better and became spiritual instead. I look back and laugh at how I could have ever followed any Abrahamic religion, as while at University getting my History degree, I learned by whom and when "Yahweh" was created by combining many Hebrew and other Semitic deities into one so a political agenda could be carried out - the uniting of the two Hebrew kingdoms. Constantine would do the same thing when he was trying to re-unify the Roman Empire "One God, One Emperor, One Empire"! Now the bat-crap crazies of all the Abrahamic religions are doing it: Israel claims a "Greater Israel" that never existed, Christians claim the US is a Christian Nation despite all the writings of our Founding Fathers to the contrary, and Islamic Fanatics are trying to create Islamic Theocracies in every country they can. If that is "Faith" I say no thanks!
JP-345944
We do have a majority of the population who affiliates with some type of religion. This supports Amendment #1. However, that doesn't mean the "MAJORITY" have the right to force their religious beliefs on the minoity do they? Last time I checked, there was no OFFICIAL religion in this country and there never will be.
Organized religion is one of man kinds WORSE creations.
"Tell this to the rest of the world. A very small minority have no religion. Of course, you believe you are smarter than 90% of the world. Typical liberal mentality.
We are all happy we are not so smart as you."
And we're happy that makes you happy.
Now why is it your post, from an obvious believer, seems so negative and hateful but mine, from a non believer and Liberal, didn't?
You don't have to have religious to be nice to others or have morals or for that matter be smarter.
Believe what you want to believe but don't try to look down on me for mine or try to shove your religion down my throat and we'll all be happy as can be.
Have a nice life.
Wait until the right-leaning states start making you prove that you belong to a church before you can vote!
If the survey was answered honestly it would be a lot higher than 20%, more like 40%..
Unfortunately, that means that 4 out of 5 have imaginary friends.
I grew up in a community that pretty well had the bases covered. Native Heritage, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Amish, Old Order Amish, Shunned Amish, Mennonite, Pennsylvania Dutch, the list goes on. All the groups above had a contributing factor, both positive and negative, not a judgement call or credit. I doubt anyone can come up with a signal system that would work for everyone. We all are given free will. The only advise I give people over the phone is read, watch, listen and learn with an open mind. Knowledge, intelligence, life experience, I have no idea. Albert Einstein, didn't believe in God. I do.
Said it before (hundreds of times) and will say it again: "50 years from now organized religion will be a thing of the past". It will either be because the next 2-5 generations, being significantly more tolerant and at constant odds with most religions (acceptance of gay marriage, non-marital sex, contraception, abortions and the right to choose, etc) or it will be because there is nothing left of us- because a religious war would have wiped all of us out.
Be critical of anyone who does not follow your books to the word and you've already recused yourself from possessing any type of faith...
Who's post caused the community to collapse the others ? Funny how things work. Maybe politics in the church is the reason. If you don't conform kind of thing..
2 out of 10 Americans don't believe in a God. That is no different than 150 years ago...keep fooling yourselves that you are making "progress" and the rest of us will keep praying.
Maybe you can have it down to 4 out of 10 in 50 years...that's something you could be proud of...LOL
Well, look how stupid people 'who have religion' act. There's your answer.
Religion is social poison. It always has been. The Republican party hooked up with the fear mongering "religious" when Ronald Reagan saw it as an opportunity to get votes from gullible people and hooked up with Jerry Falwell's "moral majority."
How do you love it now? Just look around the world to see what good religion has accomplished: NONE! Their charity isn't really charity at all for there is always a hook, a catch if you will, to lure in more mindless followers.
My opinion and .25 cents wouldn't buy you a cup of
coffee. IOU you .25 cents. here's my opinion, the Church should do what it is suppose to do, teach
the Word of God, not politics. Teach Gods Word and let people figure it out.
Religion has always been about politics. They have gone hand in hand since the beginning of the christian calander. It is more important to be a good person than to be a religious person. You can be both , but many bad people claim to be religious. Just Saying!!!!
Remove the words 'religious organizations' and put in any other group. For example, unions.
The need for money, rules and power are everywhere. Don't just blame religious organizations. Think about it.
Sadly this survey shows that the young people have less morals. Look at what they are in favor of. Killing fetuses (babies) just because some fools decided not to use birth control or protection.
This is what our youth have become. We are going backwards in morals.
Liberal-Oxymoron,
90%? Simply not true. Even if you include some pretty obscure ideas like Satanism, Naturalism, Taoism, Confucianism, etc. the number is more like 80% and if you exclude these and few others that are more like a collection of ideas and principles, but not "practiced" as a religion with no religious hierarchy, you get down to the 60% range. If you only count the Abrahamic Religions such as Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc., you're at the 50% range.
It can get a bit complicated as to what you call a religion, because new ones emerge all the time. But if you are talking about ceremonially practiced religions with a supreme diety, you're in that 50-60% range. And that of course includes the various forms of Satanism, which you probably don't consider a religion.
JP345 : As a religious guy, Are you gettying into a lot of bar fights ? Seems odd a guy writing about relion uses a barfight to make his point. jus sayin.
I had no idea so many of us were fed up with MMR. Superstitions die hard but hypocrisy in religion should be taxed to the max. Who was it that threw out the money changers?
So why does the MINORITY think they get to control everyone else?
I don't know - why does the MAJORITY think they get to control everyone else? Control is overrated.
Comparing religion to a bar fight? Sounds about right...idiots fighting over nonsense in both cases.
Well what do you know... We are getting smarter every year. One day, hopefully in my lifetime, we will see the end of organized religion. The world would be a much better (and safer) place.
No it's the reverse; people are getting DUMBER every year. The IPhones and internet are an addiction; they forgot how to use their heads. They don't think; just act like droids so they don't think about God, either.
The only way we'll see the end of organized religion is if we (finally) begin to tax it...and that would only be in the US. There is no way we'll see an end to organized religion in the Middle East...unless we bomb it to nothingness.
You will Dave......you will.
There is nothing unsafe or wrong about having spiritual faith in God. If you have a beef with organized religion - than take it up with them, but make it clear what it is you disapprove of. There are many charitable works established in the name of spiritual faith that have saved many lives.
@Dave
Smarter every year? ROFL.............What the forefathers did in 200 years they could not do it a million years..You sir are a fool according to God...One day in your life time, you are going to see chaos like this world has ever known..You be begging for God by then.But he(God) does not hear the unbelievers..God is not blessing the USA ,he has left a long time ago..What you are seeing is Chaos unfolding..
I hope you realize that when people start talking to invisible people and hearing voices in their heads, it has nothing to do with spirituality, and everything to do with mental illness.
Funny, paragus, since my God accepts all, even those who do not believe in the particular religion. You need a God who is not spiteful and petty.
I bet evolution is nonsense to you?
Tojoyamamoto: What makes you an authority on spirituality and religion? What statistics or studies show that what you claim is true? None. No one is putting you down for being a non-believer, but I do feel sorry for you.
I wouldn't mind organized religion so much if they kept their views to themselves, but I don't want anyone telling me who I can marry or if I can use birth control. And I certainly don't want anyone to be forced to have a child after being raped. Furthermore, don't come knocking on my door on Saturday morning!
Catydid: you are not forced to subscribe to anything - there is freedom of religion. But people who don't believe will one day need to be saved from something. Maybe then they will realize that life is a lot more than just getting up in the morning and going to work...
Personally, I would rather see people perform charitable acts simply because they are good people . . . and not because of some selfish desire to save their soul from eternal damnation.
Imagine a world where people did good, just because that is who they are, and not out of a fear of hellfire. Wouldn't that be a sight.
Stage, I have done just fine without organized religion and the current group of leaders in America are hell bemt on forcing their religious beliefs on us all.
Dave B - Yeah, safe like it was in the Roman era!
Catydid - "forcing their beliefs on you"; you mean like socialists and communists which are the "religions of the state"?
Socialism isn't even a religion. I have the sneaking suspicion that you have no idea what either Socialism or Communism is.
"I hope you realize that when people start talking to invisible people and hearing voices in their heads, it has nothing to do with spirituality, and everything to do with mental illness."
FALSE. If you institutionalize every psychiatrist that happens to part of a religion, who helps people get their SANITY back, then the world might not be so peaceful. There IS a difference in praying to God and carrying out a conversation with "God."
I keep wanting to know at which point in history was God IN the US? When the Native Americans were being slaughtered? When Black people were kept as slaves and routinely being raped and murdered? Post slavery when lynchings and Civil Rights violations were rampant? Which of these actions was God overseeing?
Considering the history of this country with more "religious" people, I welcome less and less "religious" people.
JP, go learn the difference betweeen socialism and communism, then we will discuss this.
All this is part of the left wing = Obama agenda to get rid of religion, like Marx said Religion is like opium for the people. Without religion, without God who gave us our right, the Government takes over, under their philosophy, if the government give you rights , the government can take those away. Because the radicalism of the left is not accepted in our society , get rid of God is another way to control our lives and our freedom.
Do you even read what you are writing.....get rid of god is another way to control our lives? Your fake god is being used to control you right now, there is no other reason for religion. Religion has ALWAYS been a way to control people....sheesh
Paragus--so you're speaking for god now when you judge someone else a fool? I thought his magic book strictly prohibited that.
Shame shame. Some of us can live right without an invisible sky father who will damn us to an imaginary lake of fire if we break one of his "rules".
"Do you even read what you are writing.....get rid of god is another way to control our lives? Your fake god is being used to control you right now, there is no other reason for religion. Religion has ALWAYS been a way to control people....sheesh"
Hey if you KNOW God doesn't exist you're welcome to explain HOW its impossible. People who believe in the same thing practicing their beliefs together. That alone doesn't exactly mean control over people
This trend is not an necessarily an assault on religions. But, anything faith based means there is no proof one can point to that shows what their particular God is like. When, after a priest that had been beating me for being "naughty" he wound up saying my problem was I had no faith in God, even as a 9 year old I knew something was wrong with him, not me.
I am what I call a Christian Atheist, meaning, I believe the teaching of a guy named Jesus, whether he actually existed or not, is a good plan for the world to live by. What I don't believe in is all the glitter and self annointed crap we get from those that have actually caused more death and destruction than all other reasons.
As I see it, for example, is that the Vatican is the AntiChrist. The Pope and his Cardinals show absolutely no connection to Christian principles.
Having said that, I do believe in THE ONE, that is the totality of BEING and that I am an INDIVIDUAL LOCATION within it.
An increasing trend in this country is for religions to be pushing themselves into politics using as wedges stuff that has nothing to do with "saving souls" and other reasons they give for claiming their right to tell the rest of us what is good and bad and basically run a franchise business with the right to beg and not pay taxes.
Ever wonder how many sick and poor might be helped if just the money's worth of the Garments the Popes are buried in was spent on them instead of the gold laced vestments, pointed hats, beanies and designer slippers they wear in life and to their graves.
I do uphold everyone's right to believe as they wish, but it seems to me stuff based simply on faith should be kept personal and out of politics. It is the politics of faith based organizations, whether they be Christian, Islamic, or other, when examined closely, that have caused more trouble, and continue to do so, than all else humans are into.
It would be good that if they wish to have a tax free situation, they do need to report what they do with the money. Spending it, as most do, on Cathedrals, fancy duds and a lot of ownership of wealth and super expensive objects and such, is not why they get a tax free deal, it is because they claim to be charitable. I think we deserve an accounting the same as we expect from other businesses.
I'm not vehemently anti-religious. It's really none of my business how/why anyone chooses to worship. What bugs me about religion, is those who insist on putting it into our legislation, or make claims that we were founded as a Christian religion. What really annoys me, is when people make claims that secularism, is a religion unto itself.
The whole point of the 1st Amendment is that, government remains neutral in religion. It can't sanction it, and it can't outlaw it. It can outlaw some of it's dogmas, but only with a damn good reason. So what does government neutrality in religion look like?
It looks like nothing. And nothing doesn't equal something. If I'm pushing against a wall, and then stop, does that mean that the wall is now pushing against me? No, of course not. If this wasn't the case, then everything that the state has any say in or funding in, would have to have disclaimers printed on it saying, "The lack of religious content doesn't constitute the state endorsing atheism".
Furthermore, we were NOT founded as a Christian religion. There is a difference between any of our founders having religion in their personal lives, and wanting it to be a governing mechanism of the state...
See...
McCollum v. Board of Education Dist. 71 , 333 U.S. 203 (1948)
Court finds religious instruction in public schools a violation of the establishment clause and therefore unconstitutional.
Burstyn v. Wilson , 72 S. Ct. 777 (1952)
Government may not censor a motion picture because it is offensive to religious beliefs.
Torcaso v. Watkins , 367 U.S. 488 (1961)
Court holds that the state of Maryland cannot require applicants for public office to swear that they believed in the existence of God. The court unanimously rules that a religious test violates the Establishment Clause.
Engel v. Vitale , 82 S. Ct. 1261 (1962)
Any kind of prayer, composed by public school districts, even nondenominational prayer, is unconstitutional government sponsorship of religion.
Abington School District v. Schempp , 374 U.S. 203 (1963)
Court finds Bible reading over school intercom unconstitutional and Murray v. Curlett, 374 U.S. 203 (1963) - Court finds forcing a child to participate in Bible reading and prayer unconstitutional.
Epperson v. Arkansas , 89 S. Ct. 266 (1968)
State statue banning teaching of evolution is unconstitutional. A state cannot alter any element in a course of study in order to promote a religious point of view. A state's attempt to hide behind a nonreligious motivation will not be given credence unless that state can show a secular reason as the foundation for its actions.
Lemon v. Kurtzman , 91 S. Ct. 2105 (1971)
Established the three part test for determining if an action of government violates First Amendment's separation of church and state:
1) the government action must have a secular purpose;
2) its primary purpose must not be to inhibit or to advance religion;
3) there must be no excessive entanglement between government and religion.
Stone v. Graham , 449 U.S. 39 (1980)
Court finds posting of the Ten Commandments in schools unconstitutional.
Wallace v. Jaffree , 105 S. Ct. 2479 (1985)
State's moment of silence at public school statute is unconstitutional where legislative record reveals that motivation for statute was the encouragement of prayer. Court majority silent on whether "pure" moment of silence scheme, with no bias in favor of prayer or any other mental process, would be constitutional.
Edwards v. Aquillard , 107 S. Ct. 2573 (1987)
Unconstitutional for state to require teaching of "creation science" in all instances in which evolution is taught.Statute had a clear religious motivation.
Allegheny County v. ACLU , 492 U.S. 573 (1989)
Court finds that a nativity scene displayed inside a government building violates the Establishment Clause.
Lee v. Weisman , 112 S. Ct. 2649 (1992)
Unconstitutional for a school district to provide any clergy to perform nondenominational prayer at elementary or secondary school graduation. It involves government sponsorship of worship. Court majority was particularly concerned about psychological coercion to which children, as opposed to adults, would be subjected, by having prayers that may violate their beliefs recited at their graduation ceremonies.
And
And
And...
And don't even try to give me that 10th Amendment argument. Everson v Board of Ed, incorporated the Establishment clause to the states, via the 14th Amendment.
So, can we please, please, just keep it in our churches, hearts and homes???
The problem with Religion is the same as nearly everything else. People+power=corruption. Politicians, Church leaders, Police, Union Officials, and anyone else who has power or a bully pulpit. They become corrupted by power and the need to control others and gain more power. Those who seek positions of power are the last people who should have any.
I quit getting smashed every day when I quit religion. I shocked anyone does it in the opposite order, as an eternity in heaven means getting smashed for 70 years was just a pregame, not even the main event.
If death is the end, then what you do each and every day matters. I think religion mostly fills in for people's lack of courage to face the reality of death. They get to say "man, this life was hard [because they were a lousy father, didn't provide financially, irresponsible, dishonset, etc] praise Jesus I've got an eternity with the Father and this 'lil world don't matter!"
Well, it does matter. If that's too heavy for you, then the Church will sell you another story.
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.
Relax,
Invictus. I like it.
Really? I seem to remember the Bible having a whole bunch of things about what you cannot do according to 'God'. Religion is anything but freedom. The Bible is a set of written controls and rules for believers. If you don't agree with someone else's lifestyle, well good for you. Keep that to your church and home life. The people that try to oppress with religious based law and bigotry are the ones taking freedoms from others. The majority of religion today is synonymous with hypocrisy.
Catydid - you sound like my daughter!
By the way -- you cannot explain the difference between socialism and communism to some people (JP and like company). They will never get it. They are closed minded people.
And the people that moan and groan the most about "Big Government" telling us what to do -- are the most likely to try and tell everyone else how to live....No wonder most people roll their eyes when the talk is about religion.
"
@"paragus
@Dave
Smarter every year? ROFL.............What the forefathers did in 200 years they could not do it a million years..You sir are a fool according to God...One day in your life time, you are going to see chaos like this world has ever known..You be begging for God by then.But he(God) does not hear the unbelievers..God is not blessing the USA ,he has left a long time ago..What you are seeing is Chaos unfolding.."
Your post is so stupid I feel stupid pointing this out to you.
This Chaos of which you speak seems to have been brought on by those very same people that believe in God (their God of course.. there seems to be a lot of them).
Religion has been and will be the root cause of this "Chaos" you claim is from God. Just take a look at all those religious Muslim countries and tell me why they have so much Chaos? They seem to be REAL believer to me, I don't get it? Well Actually I do but apparently you and your ilk don't.
Why hasn't God shown himself and put everyone in their place and spread love instead of hate, killing and Wars in his name? Makes no sense until you realize its nothing but a BIG cult used to control others.
They make you give them money and blood, they convince you that anyone that doesn't believe as you, or dare to take their control of you away from them (ie another Religion), should be forced to convert or die (usually past off as God punishing them).
If I were God I'd show up some weekend and tell these religious nuts they got it all wrong and to stop hating and killing in his name. Then I'd do a few cool miracles to make sure I impressed them and then "poof" be gone for another 10,000 years, lol (ok maybe I'd come back every summer for vacation). I know you're going to tell me that's coming but I think he's or she or it is a little over due.
PS why would God not listen to the non believers? I heard he forgives all our sins? Which is it will we be punished or forgiven? (There seems to be a lot for contradictions in the bible)
Left,
I believe some conservatives have mistaken poorly funded government for limited government. For example...
Taxes? Too invasive, the government's on their backs. Government mandated, trans-vaginal ultrasounds? Meh, okay, even though the government is literally up their vaginas.
Emanuel
you asked..
In what point and time when God was in the USA?
Answer..When Jews came here to live in the USA after WW1 and WW2 and some before WW1.
You asked.. Which of these actions was God over seeing?
I dont have the Mind or Plan of God..God did not invent slavery, it was man who invented it and God allowed slavery like he allowed everything else that Man evil heart can come with..
But what i do know. Once Israel became a Nation in 1948 and Recapture Jerusalem in 1967.The count down has begun for mankind to repent.I believe were going to see God ruling from Israel in our life time..This is how bad it is going to get on this Earth, before God come and rules..
You sir are an idiot. Socialism has no religion nor does it have a state sponsored lack of religion. It has nothing to do with religion.
@BP
If you believe in Christianity and Jesus who is a free ticket to sin...
All God wants us to do is follow His Commandments and have a Good life..Is that so hard???
And no i am not a Christians nor do i believe in Christianity..
Dont worry about God showing up.I be more worried when you meet him..
Umm... slavery was mentioned in the Bible quite a bit in the old testament, even giving rules to which it was allowed and regulated.
God coming to earth and ruling over us from Israel?
Wow, someone really needs to re-read their Bible before they start acting like a prophet. Perhaps it is just as religion has always been, man's own interpretation of ancient writings that were penned by man in the first place. Even if it is truly the word of a god, how do we know what the true word is? Televangelists were not the first people to use and alter religion for their own gain.
Not believing in a higher spiritual power or being anti-religious is itself a religion. It's not possible to escape faith- just depends on what you invest your beliefs in and that is where your own individual religion lies.
Dark
That right slavery was allowed, but according to God you could not take a slave life (thou shall not kill)..That is why there God laws and Man laws..
Maybe you need to reread the Bible..The temple is going to be rebuilt and who is going to be inside that temple? >>God<< Where the temple? ""In Israel"".. God will rule from Israel..
ProFreedom,
How does nothing equal something???
And...
Please explain to me, how two things that by their very definition are opposites, are also the same.
What this really means is that 4 out of 5 Americans have imaginary friends.
Sarah, outstanding post!
I have decided that this year when some one wishes me a Merry Christmas that my reply will " happy winter solstice.". If christians are truly that tolerant of others in this country, than this shouldn't offend them at all, just like I am not offended by their offering me their belief.
Sarah-
Why do I need to explain anything to you? You already demonstrate well what I posted- we all succumb to our beliefs and convictions. Do you believe in 'nothing' as you put it? Produced by two opposing definitions that you are interpreting? Do you have the market cornered on what is real vs. unreal? If you do maybe you can clue me & everyone else on here what we should believe in... no, wait: Don't start stumping your beliefs or you're starting another religion- a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe... Get enough people rallied behind you and you can lead your flock to heaven or over a cliff- it depends on your ability to mesmerize & hypnotize the masses and get their minds to work in kind. Been done before- history is replete with examples (e.g. Nazi Germany, Heaven's Gate cult, etc.)
Pro,
Oh, so you can't.
I've never claimed to have any idea what's out there. Can you quote where I ever have, or where I've said you aren't entitled to your belief?
What I don't like, are illogical arguments. Yours basically, boils down to this...
Black is black. White is the opposite of black. White is black. It makes no sense. Government neutrality in religion is secularism, so...From above...
The whole point of the 1st Amendment is that, government remains neutral in religion. It can't sanction it, and it can't outlaw it. It can outlaw some of it's dogmas, but only with a damn good reason. So what does government neutrality in religion look like?
It looks like nothing. And nothing doesn't equal something. If I'm pushing against a wall, and then stop, does that mean that the wall is now pushing against me? No, of course not. If this wasn't the case, then everything that the state has any say in or funding in, would have to have disclaimers printed on it saying, "The lack of religious content doesn't constitute the state endorsing atheism".
I feel like we're clashing about... nothing ;) I mean, you're bringing in all this subject matter about secularism vs religion, quoting historical figures, 1st Amendment, pushing against walls... etc. etc. Wow, what a lot of work to go through.
I don't think you even read my post: I was stating, basically, that we all succumb to our beliefs. We are thinking, feeling and behaving beings and we can't escape what we are. We all live by our own creed whether it be to believe in God as the highest power who created the universe; others are motivated by materialism, worshipping the almighty dollar; still others are atheistic and passionatey deny the existence of any higher being and that once we die we deteriorate into the nothingness we came from. We are convinced that our way of believing is the only way and look down at others for believing otherwise. Of course, we see extremes to this in the world such as with Muslims today, and the other examples I gave above. I think I'm making more of a general statement about something I've come to believe than trying to get into a big philosophical, religious, or political pissing match with anyone. You obviously don't like what I think and that's ok: You are entitled to believe as ye will! (Afterall I am pro freedom ;)
A lot of times you've probably heard people adopt the philosophy that we never discuss politics or religion in an attempt to get along better. Actually, what wonderful advice! Let's stop and just part ways. Something tells me you'll be upset and just pick apart what I've written and work way too hard making more quotes, etc. to prove how "illogical" I'm being. Have a nice rest of the day.
You can call me a "none".
As in,
I would believe in a god, but there aint none.
johnny_concerned,
Even if there was a god, I can't think of any of the gods that are worthy enough for 24hr worship forever. Thankfully, there is no evidence for any of the gods who have ever been claimed to exist.
Life before death. More need to try that. :)
This has been trending at 80% for twenty years now; with most of the 20% waywards souls lurking here on MSDNC.
The lunatics have taken over this asylum.
Hip, hip hooray! There is no god and religion is corrupt and corrupting. Religion is just nonsense and down right evil.
Yet RandyEK comes here to set all of us free-thinkers straight with his talk of eternal damnation and invisible sky fathers.
Thinking about every way God or a god can't exist isn't actually free-thinking. Well, I guess you could call it biased free thinking.
Oh nooooo I'm a wayward soul.
Thinking about every way God or a god can't exist isn't actually free-thinking.
What?!?!? How is it not?
So which are you Randy since I see you since I see you here you must be a poor old way ward soul..
??
"Thinking about every way God or a god can't exist isn't actually free-thinking. Well, I guess you could call it biased free thinking."
??!? LOL like your thinking of every way that an invisible man that lives in the clouds does exist is free un bias thinking?? LOL All I can say is Ohhh the irony!
"??!? LOL like your thinking of every way that an invisible man that lives in the clouds does exist is free un bias thinking?? LOL All I can say is Ohhh the irony! "
I'll give you a head start. I never said anything about an invisible man living in the clouds. As for me, well, if i chose not to believe in God, logically, I would have to be agnostic. It's not biased nor an assumption.
I also never said I ONLY think about how God could exist. This would be another example of an assumption.
RandyEK is not alone. Scriptures tell the believer to 'go therefore and make disciples', 'and this good news of the kingdom SHALL be preached in all the lands', and 'don't hide your light under a basket'.
BTW... The scriptures do not say we will convert the nations, but that we must preach the good news as a witness to the nations.
The believer MUST tell others about the blessings of Jesus Christ, and the promised rewards from the Father. Not that we do so seeking self sanctification. Not because we will go to hell if we don't. We do it because we love our Father who is the one who saves us. And we have compassion for lost souls with no hope. And we want to make the world the best it can be by offering alternatives to the downward spiral the world's path is on.
Thanks RandyEK.
"??!? LOL like your thinking of every way that an invisible man that lives in the clouds does exist is free un bias thinking?? LOL All I can say is Ohhh the irony! "
------------
"I'll give you a head start. I never said anything about an invisible man living in the clouds. As for me, well, if i chose not to believe in God, logically, I would have to be agnostic. It's not biased nor an assumption."
I also never said I ONLY think about how God could exist. This would be another example of an assumption."
Oh the irony? How is making assumptions free-thinking? I guess maybe because your free to do so...at best.
(emphasis mine)
200 years ago we knew it, yet people never learn.
"An alliance or coalition between Government and religion cannot be too carefully guarded against......Every new and successful example therefore of a PERFECT SEPARATION between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance........religion and government will exist in greater purity, without (rather) than with the aid of government."
[James Madison in a letter to Livingston, 1822, from Leonard W. Levy- The Establishment Clause, Religion and the First Amendment,pg 124]
Hey Dave, there is a good chance that something exists much greater than ourselves. Life is too incredible not feel or see it. That interconnection that we have with one another family, friends,ur children even strangers. i heard a story years bk about a man that jumped off a bridge and stranger next to him grabbed his arm as he went over then a another grabbed on to him safely keeping the two from going over. And then people asked why didn't u just let go of him his reply was, I felt as though if he went over and died, a piece of me would die also. It's the true interconnection that we feel even with a complete stranger like u. "FYI i don't go to church"
dave-numbers, I don't begrudge your belief. But I think some people prefer rationalistic explanations over the 'it's amazing' explanations. Many things, such as the interconnectedness, could potentially be explained through naturalistic means. Being a social animal, human survival has always been very closely linked to our interactions with others and it's quite likely that such feelings of connection derive from purely natural origins.
Some sort of 'power' exists that we do not fully comprehend, indeed. To me, that power is nature itself. To others, it's beyond nature - but I have no reason to assume as much. Nature itself is pretty awesome as it is, a supernature just seems redundant to me.
Again, some people see the amazingness of the world we live in as proof of a God-entity of some sort. I just see it as proof that nature is amazing all by itself.
Like myself, many of those involved in the writing of the US Constitution were Theist or Deist, believers in a supreme intellect (god), but not religion which is based on a series of ancient short stories by several different authors about the same subject........Science and the logic of physics has pretty much discredited many of the abbreviated passages in most religious texts, but has not in anyway began to discredit the notion something or someone more capable than we is at work.......Albert Einstein himself said, "While I denounce the notions put forth in most religious theology, there is no doubt in my mind, there is a more capable intellect than we ."
Yay for our side. Won't be long before we will be the biggest segment in the theology racket. Can't wait for the first anti-theist president.
Shuklack imagine the day when all things are understood by the natural workings of nature. And then Buddha said i understand. and just BTW i begrudge thee not;)
Shuklack,
Likewise, I respect your views, but see the evolutionary process of nature as a necessary tool for Mother nature ( god) to maintain a healthy balance of plant and mobile life forms, a way of controlling the numbers of predator and prey and supply and demand. But nothing whatsoever to do with religion.
While the laws of physics cannot discount the possibility the universe and all physical life forms within are the result of an accumulation of the building blocks of life and the process of natural selection, the building blocks of life cannot rationally explain the presence of consciousness, feelings and emotions. Those things are spiritual, not physical in nature. That is why nothing has ever been invented to detect or analyse a soul, the captain and operator of whatever ship. The physical body is just a temporary vehicle which allows a soul to experience first hand, things of a physical and emotional nature like touch, pain, hunger, love, sorrow, compassion, remorse and joy........You are correct about everything being interactive, interconnected, interdependent and relevant, that in itself is proof to me that everything within, and within the habitat is a result of divine science,.............Good day.
One of the reasons so many do not believe in God, or the bible is carbon dating. Carbon dating is a method for determining the age of matter based upon the theoretical decay of a molecule known as Carbon-14.
This is how the carbon dating phenomen came into being:
1) Sedimentation experiments were performed to determine the rate of sedimentary depositition.
2) From a theoretical approximate rate of static deposition, determined in a laboratory, ages were assigned to the layers of sedimentary deposits.
3) Carbon-14 was found in organic compounds in each layer.
4) Because the ages of the rock in which the Carbon-14, were known though the theory of sedimentary deposition, the rate of decay of Carbon-14 was now known by theory.
If you are an actual scientist, you know that this process of carbon-14 dating is only theoretical, no one has ever actually observed the decay of Carbon-14 in a laboratory over time to determine its actual rate of decay in static environment, let alone in a dynamic environment.
The conclusion is that the ages of rock on the planet earth under the guidelines of current geological theory ignores several competing and obvious theories which have far more validity. The current accepted theory, like evolution requires far more faith in a static world and a static universe than just believing some super bering created the whole thing. Since our universe and earth are not static, the theory actually has no relevant truth and should be taught as theory and theory only.
Unfortunately, scientists came before lawyers, who do not know the difference between theory and scientific fact and the lawyers decided the theory of sedimentation was correct and carbon-14 dating was correct. The lawyers made laws that this should be taught as truth in schools.
Argument One: The basis for the denial of the age of the earth is utterly wrong.
1) Saying there is no God is a bit like saying alien life never entered the atmosphere of earth. That, in all, the infinite solar systems that are above our heads there exists absolutely no other life of any kind. One can make that argument and be correct, logically, except there have been countless incidents of alien encounters. If we ever find life other than on earth that science actually accepts that some sort of life was found, that will be a miracle and complete proof of God.
Not accepting substantiated evidence of encounters such as the events at Fatima and so many others is simply that: the refusal to accept evidence of higher beings. The refusal to accept does not mean that higher beings do not exist, just that wishful thinkers hope it is true higher beings don't exist.
Where I live, we recently had a miraculous healing of a young man by an entity, God. The young man has been blind in his left eye for twenty years, then about three weeks ago, he felt a hand on his shoulder, or something, and he could see out of his blind eye. I have been healed by the being while out working just like the young man I know.
These events happen, and continue to happen all over the earth. Denying they happen is not very good science. It is just a bunch of ostriches sticking their heads in the sand and hoping they are right.
My faith in humanity is somewhat strengthened by this. At least 20% of people 'get it'
Be religious, fine! But keep unsupported superstition and prejudices in your home. When you venture out in the world, just remember that we all have our own as well and that to weaken the protections that prevent oppression by the majority or from a powerful minority is to reap the whirlwind.
Examples of religious-intrusion on common law:
While you (dogmatic-folks) may be perfectly fine with the state reflecting your religion's arbitrary opinion(s) on such subject-matter that doesn't affect you; never forget that the pendulum can swing the other way and there are other religious institutions that are vying for equal or greater power than yours...and you may not like what kinds of prejudices they have waiting in store for you with new laws to be drafted.
Man is a lesser being:
If you are going to copy and paste nonsense from the Discovery Institute, or as I like to call it - the Arsenal of Misinformation for the Delusional... you should really cite them.
It makes a big difference to establishing the veracity of your (mis)information; for example, citing the Flat Earth Society or citing NASA when it comes to the shape of the Earth has very different implications.
Such implications include important things like: is the information written by a sane or an insane person? Is this information so utterly and ridiculous false and repeatedly debunked by decades of hard science?
You know, things like that.
Ellis, nicely put my thoughts to the letter. but don't u think...... Good day is a bit harsh? This has been a good discussion, I used work at a place with a lot of christian's and one athiest Joe one of my favorite things to do when we got a new youth pastor in the shop."because the boss would hire christian's, and a few of us others bk bones of the store" I would getthe new christian guy's to say for example. me asking: if u don't believe in Jesus ur going to burn in God's eternal hell Fire. Christian would reply: Yes if u don't Believe u will burn. My Reply so my buddy joe in the bk is going to Hell I'll let him know. This would go around and around they would try to save his soul. Too funny, true story, time and time again. BTW I don't work there no more thx GOD:)
Copy,Paste and miraculous Oh! My! this not harsh enough.
Man is lesser being,..........The notion of god has nothing whatsoever to do with Christian theology
Carbon dating may discredit most present day religions beliefs of a recent beginning, but they do not discredit the notion of a god. To the contrary, the multi-billion or infinite period of time lends credit to the notion of a supreme intellect (god). If everything just suddenly began with a big bang or the creation of Earth and the heavens in a week, then there is no such thing as infinite or eternal.
Nor is it true god created man in thy own likeness, what happened was man created an image of god in his own likeness, complete with all of mans emotional deficiencies of discrimination, persecution and vengeance. The problem is, man cannot envision an entity without conflicting emotions, a face, body or voice...........God is the energy of life, that is why god is everywhere and knows everything...drats
Ellis,
Well said once more. everywhere and knows everything.. drats! lol.
concernedone
So this is how I get 'saved' from the God that created hell and the criteria that sends me to hell and the same God that knows everything that will happen in the future and controls all events including everything I do or don't do? So God can save me from God and only God can do that? Sounds to me like it's all in Gods hands and there really ain't a damn thing I can do about it.
Man is a lesser being?
Get a grip man. Your ancedotal snake oil cures and refutations of known science doesn't distract any of us from realizing that your simply grasping at straws in your poorly thought out attempt at rationalizing the existence of a thing that doesn't exist. You can no more prove that the thing that doesn't exist, exists then we can disprove that a thing that doesn't exist, doesn't exist.
This is GOOD news especially the 1 out of 3 under 30. Kids have become smarter and less "intimidated" by a supreme fictitious entity who would smack them down when they misbehaved. I attribute this to enlightened parenting.
I believe the figure in Europe is almost 50% but then they were far more shackled by religion over the ages and finally said ENOUGH!!
@ryanb21
free thinking has a lot to do with the cultural context. it includes the ability to entertain ideas that the vast majority of those around you contend are impossibilities and to evaluate them on their own merits. the more conservative the religeon, the the more they try to control free thinking. been there, felt that.
Which you Ellis assume was a reference to a "Supreme Being" (aka God as you state).
That was not the case rather Einstein was referring to a cosmic dynamic beyond comprehension at this point of man's intellect. Since Einstein passed there have been new discoveries (and continue to be). These discoveries also portend to the human condition. Within our ecosystems lies consciousness and deeper still....quantum consciousness. Plumbing this will eventually lead to the discovery that "Man is God" rather the "idea" of God emanates from within than without.
Most Mexicans believe that they do not have to follow the 10 Commandments or US laws.
Most Mexicans believe that the universe revolves around Mexico.
Man is a lesser being
I read that whole nonsensical 3.19--know what I learned?--Some men are definitely 'lesser' then others.
Black Bird,
1 out of 3 under 30. children are tech savvy but they are not any smarter than the past generations. Are you saying my grandfather and mother we're less intelligent than these kids playing video and Facebook games. Couldn't turn a wrench or build with there hands. I think there is much to be said about humility, witch is lacking in so many ways. After all humility begets kindness. BTW if you listen u would understand what Ellis was expressing.
Religion is a cult made up of people who live in fear, promote hatred and intolerance of others. Those who have a religious belief are nothing but hypocrites. If you don't believe me be honest with yourselves and also have you been listening to those on the right who have been lying to the American people for the last 4 years. How can you say your a religious believer when you all lie and use the bible as a tool to justify your wrongs. Also think about how many people have been killed in the name of one religion or other and don't forget the leaders of religions are mostly for the financial gains and always play on peoples fears. We don't need religion to tell us what the difference between good and evil so stop hiding your true self behind religion and live life without fear.
Interesting reading...how people try to justify not believing in God. The article says religious belief is declining and all the unbelievers come out to crow, not realizing, since they don't believe in God, that this is exactly what the Bible says would happen in the end time. There would come a "great falling away" before the anti-Christ is revealed. A believing world would never be stupid enough to follow a disguised demon, but an atheistic or even agnostic one would. I was particularly struck by Blackbirds comment on kids being smarter today because a higher percentage of them don't believe in God. Is it that superior intelligence that also makes the soaring rates of suicide, depression, drug use, promiscuity, teen pregnancy, illiteracy, etc? Yeah, I can see where they are smarter. Then there is Winker, who has bought the lie that fear is what causes people to believe in God. You have deceived yourself, sir, to make yourself feel better about not believing in God. We have no fear because we have no reason to fear. I know in whom I believe, and what the future has in store for me. No matter what happens in this life, the next will be glorious. It is only the unbelievers that have anything to fear, and they are fools if they don't. "Fear not what man can do to the body, but fear Him who has the power to destroy both body and soul in Hell." The sin God hates most is the sin of pride, and I see lots of prideful fools on here tonight. "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God." I feel sorry for you misguided fools who think you are in control. You are simply the devil's puppets.
As a kid growing up in the 60's &70's - it was about 1 in 10 families who went to church. People just say they believe in a god just to shut up the believers. About the only ones who went to church regularly were the Catholics - and they always had at least one rebel in the family.
Both women I married, denounced their religion when I met them - both of them threw it (their faith) in my face when it came time to divorce them...what a pain in the ass...lol.
If there are any women around 55 yo in Tucson who are committed to being normal (down to earth) - give me a call. I'm spiritual in a hippie sense - religion is not spiritual.
.
Most of you people are looking at this from the reporters perspective, I see in the opposite direction, I see four out of five people who do claim a religious affiliation. To me that says two hundred and forty million people in America have a religion, would to God it was a born again Christian experience. The reason Christianity is so hated is because it teaches that we are to love one another and to treat others as we want to be treated, Jesus said the only prerequisites for life after death is to believe that he is the Son of God, he said if you believe in God then believe also in him of which that he is the Son of God, he also said the greatest commandment is to love one another. I do not see a problem with believeing, if you do believe then you would not want to harm anyone and this is the reason sixty million do not claim a religion. I do not mean that most of these people want to harm you but the ones that do cause a lot of damage in the lives of many. People lie and give Christianity a black eye, we do not hate a single person on earth, we hate the sin that people do, even as Christians we sin every day, the difference is we can ask God to forgive us, and because he sent his son to die for us, God has no choice but to forgive us, if there is one thing that God cannot do it is to continue to condems us after we ask Him for forgiveness in the name of Jesus, and we strive to do the best we can not to sin again. I at this time say a prayer for those who claim no religion, that God will open your eyes and you will see that it is actually easier to believe than to deny. To those who claim a religion I now pray that God will open your eyes also and see the correct directions to eternal life is thru Jesus Christ. Jesus was God in human form and came here to experience human pain and suffering so that we could be forgiven, he loved everyone including those who tortured him and killed him, part of his last words were "Father forgive them, they do not understand what they are doing." Come Lord Jesus,come. The sooner the better. I personally believe that all has been done according to the word that predicts his coming and the time is short. Jesus said, narrow is the road to heaven, but wide is the road to hell and there will be more going down the wide road than the narrow road. Which road will you take? God Bless.
FYI, Christianity was never hated because of the requirement to "love one another"...that's just what you would like to believe so that you don't have to more deeply analyze the mounting vitriol against fundamentalists.
Christians who decide to beat others over the head with their cherry-picked bible-thumping and vote for bigoted and unjust laws because it coincides with their prejudices they adopted wholeheartedly in youth at the pulpit.
Subjects like:
Religion and politics make very poor bedfellows and it never ends well for anyone.
Leave religion in your heart and in your home, and understand that when you leave your front porch every morning or go out and vote, we are all trying to get along with one another, and we all want to live our lives as best we can without interference. So don't add any interference when it doesn't have any effect on you or how you live your life.
Someone important said that you should judge not, lest you be judged...and that same person said that his laws were not of this world, but of the kingdom of heaven.
So, given that, please explain where so many devoutly religious give themselves a free pass for using the bible as their sole justification for what laws should be, or whom is going to hell or not.
Ryanb21 - Okay you have my attention, but please show me where any thing says God is invisible and lives in the clouds? Or is that just your interpretation of what you've heard? Thanks, and have a nice day. Maybe those firey charriots the ancients talk about were space vehicles that came down and intelligent beings were put on this earth when it was discovered by somebody a lot more advanced than us that this place could support life. Maybe????? Oh! but then, WE wouldn't be the most intelligent beings in the galaxy would we?
Yep, religion is real - as long as it's Christianity.
Me? I'm backing Zeus. He throws thunderbolts.
Or, maybe the Church of the Sub-genius. Slackers unite.
@ TonyInDallas
LOL...I figured from your avatar that you worship the almighty C8H10N4O2
"Ryanb21 - Okay you have my attention, but please show me where any thing says God is invisible and lives in the clouds?"
As I stated before, I never said this. In fact, I was stating that I never said that before to the previous person who assumed I believe it.
"Or is that just your interpretation of what you've heard? Thanks, and have a nice day. Maybe those firey charriots the ancients talk about were space vehicles that came down and intelligent beings were put on this earth when it was discovered by somebody a lot more advanced than us that this place could support life. Maybe????? Oh! but then, WE wouldn't be the most intelligent beings in the galaxy would we?"
We most likely are not the most advanced species in the universe and we MAY have very well been visited by other beings. The universe is estimated to be something like 15 trillion years old. Our species has not been around nearly that long so if there is other life out there, it has a huge head start on science...making advanced aliens completely and utterly possible. None of this proves nor disproves some type of God.
@Seriously...I'm multi religious. Or is that multi-deitic?
Maybe that's polytheistic, I believe in The Great Caffeine, The Flying Spaghetti Monster and Bob.
@ TonyInDallas
WTF, not even a shoutout to the Almighty Teapot?
Who's Bob?
I only know of a Bob in accounting. And while glorious, I no longer make sacrifices to Him
...office management didn't much like me deliberately burning things in the toaster
That's Bob and the Church of the Sub-genius.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_SubGenius
Couldn't be because the the churches and Republicans have thrown in together, could it? They do preach creationism, the shunning of science, the flat earth, etc.
And who wants to spend eternity with a Republican?
You must be retarded. Flat earth? I pray to God daily, hoping He will help all the misguided liberals find their way. You, too, can be saved if you repent your evil ways.
So everyone who isn't a conservative Christian and who doesn't believe exactly as you do has"evil ways?"
I guess that includes everying who isn't a member of your particular sect.
Good to know that you have been specifically deputized to determine what ways are "evil."
there are conservatives who are athiests, and not believing in god or organized religion is hardly "evil".
You sound hateful and hypocritical. I'll pray for YOU tonight to become more christ-like. :)
So KCBones...you start by calling Critic retarded, then call liberals misguided and then assume someone is "evil" for not believing in God. Way to bring the flock in. Did you ever consider perhaps that most people who don't believe in God first began on that path to get away from judgemental a**holes? I'm sure you did, right before you gleefully wished them condemnation.
KC - I'm guessing your God is the Jesus one. (sorry if it's not, I'm just guessing) And if my guess is correct, your God couldn't even keep his own house in order, with priests raping boys and your church leaders covering it up and moving them around.
I'd think a God should worry about keeping his own house (ie religion) clean before He has to worry about anyone who doesn't follow His (weird, in some cases) rules. If your God can't even rule over the people administrating His religion on Earth, how much power can He really have?
Severed Head, loosen the lid on your jar, you need some oxygen. It doesn't matter if you think you're conservative or liberal. It just seems to be the "in thing" with the liberal crowd to belittle Christians. Judgement Day is coming, about 1/5 of the American public better reconsider what they truly believe.
"You must be retarded."
Wow! Name calling and offending disabled people all in one sentence. Sounds kind of "evil" to me. Maybe you should attempt to save yourself.
Once religion and politics were tied together it was a losing battle to get anything done. Religion is too personal and emotional . Running the country should be done in an unbiased, rational manner. The framers of the Constitution must have been a lot smarter than those we have running the country today!
I've always wonder why, as I have seen many times..Christians attempting to convert a Christian. Insane yet the insane part is Obviously easy to understand. No religion is right or wrong, who has the bigger guns it seems, speaking the loudest hate.
I see KCBONES likes to make generalizations about "the evil liberals". lol. Not that he's biased or anything. :)
Are you the only one around like yourself where are the rest? News vine needs more conservative christians to argue with.
KC,
You sound like a true believer. Just as you are unlikely to be swayed by the non-believers (of which I am one), your rant about judgement day has very little chance of resonating with atheists and agnostics. We are very unlikely to "reconsider" . If anything, the "nones" are more likely to grow in number, just like the trend shows now.
By the way, I don't begrudge you or belittle your celebration of christmas. As an atheist, I'm more than happy to wish people a Merry Christmas if they are receptive to it.
I posted this to Catydid and the original post was collapsed and I want her to see this:
Catydid, did you read the article?? Over half of the people that have no religious affiliation still believe in God. You atheists are definitely in the minority! According to statistics, most of the so-called atheists are young. I was also an atheist in my younger days. I look back at that part of my life and laugh. My life is so much more filled with love, peace and joy since I said "yes" to the Lord. May you also be blessed with faith. BTW, I am not filled with fear of hell and eternal punishment. I love the Lord and trust in Him. He has made my life so much more beautiful and I am so grateful for His blessings. God bless!
Where did I "belittle Christians or conservatives?" I just belittled your conviction that you are right and everyone else is wrong.
Linda,
Yes I read the article, and you can keep your blessing. I have plenty of love in my life, a great family, educated children, I volunteer my time to charity and I don't need some imaginary being to rule my life. If you find comfort in a god, good for you, just don't force it on me and leave it out of government!
Linda M, why are you so concerned with Catydid? Perhaps she did see your original post, but chose not to respond. Stop being arrogant.
I've heard it said that knowledge is superior to belief, for belief is the way of the uninformed. I have knowledge on my side. Which one do you have? It's not too late to make a choice.
In so far as religion can offer historical continuity through tradition and act as a repository for cultural knowledge, act to succor and relieve those in distress who have no other outlet, it has a useful purpose.
The problem arises when adherents mistake religious dogma for literal reality. Social "truths" like the Golden Rule are not equivalent to scientific fact like the law of gravity. People who take their religious truths literally are not only missing the entire point of the spiritual dimension, but are also dangerously deluded and most dangerous when they see their religious truth as exclusively THE TRUTH.
I find it heartening that organized religion is losing it's sway over the populace. I find it disheartening that the loss is seemingly not being replaced by a more enlightened world view.
i think that the change in church affiliations is mainly due to the refusal of the 'church' (all religions) to look forward and not back. they cling to ancient writing by primitive humans who didn't understand how the world and the universe work. they didn't understand how the human mind works(we still don't know everything there) they cling to archaic ideals because it helps the hierarchy of the church control the masses and maintain power and money.
but, for those naysayers, let me just say this. don't blame God for what man has done. if you read the bible you would see that God describes himself very clearly. "I am that I am. i am the alpha and the omega. the beginning and the end." he only appears in forms of energy. and you can not look upon the countenance of God for his brilliance would kill you. well, what does that sound like? not some guy sitting on a throne with a thunderbolt in his hand-that is Zeus. that is Thor.
it sounds like the universe itself and a lot of scientists (they're not all atheists) will say that the perfection of how the universe works connotes intelligence. but, let's look beyond our own limited version of life and think about a living universe, thought and consciousness without form. sounds like so much science fiction, but it's not so far fetched. everything around you, including you and your thoughts are all just energy and we are all just children of the universe in the sense that all life here on earth originated in the depths of space.
the universe works in perfect harmony within itself and our planet works with perfect harmony. even the natural disasters are part of what makes our dynamic planet live and breath. without volcanoes and earthquakes you would not have plate tectonics and the believe me, life as we know it would not exist. WE are the only thing in nature that is not harmonious. we take and we don't replace. we pillage our home, we kill for pleasure.
because the universal consciousness (God) works in harmony and i believe can communicate with us through our thoughts and hearts the teachings that were handed down by Jesus were to teach us how to live with the universe and not against it. Jesus said that there were two great laws, 'love God and love thy neighbor.' the next sentence was just as important. he said "these two commandments go BEFORE all the laws and the prophets." imagine, as john lennon once asked, if we lived by the golden rule. you don't HAVE to believe in God to see the good in that. we would have no war, we would have no famine, the rich would not exploit the poor.
organized religion took something beautiful and turned it into a monster that has brought death and destruction and little else. although the average christian, muslim, jew, buddhist, etc. are not violent and do not wish bad things upon others, the institutions themselves breed hatred, prejudice( it wasn't until late in the 20th century that blacks were given equality in the mormon church) and live on greed and arrogance. ONLY they have all the answers. ONLY they should be allowed to dictate to you how to live your lives, because ONLY they get to talk to God, and they use fear of condemnation to keep people in line.
but, if we understood that God is not a man, he never was, but instead the living universe that exists for harmony and that the ideals leading to that harmony have been given to us, not just by people like Jesus by they lie within us, for we all have a conscience-the image that we were created in-our consciousness-THAT is the God source in all of us. if we can understand that it is not some outside source, but our own actions that count, then things would change. the buddhists come closest to this ideal, in the sense that they believe in cause and effect. the bible talks about that all the time, just not in those words, but people didn't get it. if you do good deeds, you will have goodness come back to you, not necessarily money and fame, but a good life, filled with love and contentment.
but, if you have no feeling for your fellow man, for the animals that share our planet, for the planet itself, then you will reap the consequences, as we are today. we rape and pillage our planet and now we have poison air, and poison water and the climate is changing and we're running out of water. we brought this on ourselves, God didn't do it. the universal energy only works for the perfection of life, not death. so, how do we change? you don't have to stop believing in God. just start realizing that the universe was created for life and we have a chance to live it with goodness or we can continue to push towards our own destruction. don't worry about mother earth. she will continue to spin around, and orbit the sun for another five billion years, with or without us. the choice is ours.
Hmmm..... I'm a conservative Republican who doesn't believe in organized religion but does believe in spirituality and that every person has the right to follow their own spiritual path. You guys are kinda making me feel like I don't fit in anywhere lol I guess I'm just niche-less
Wolfbaby - that's not such a bad thing! I don't know that I'd want to fit in with the majority of these people either.
"KCBones Comment collapsed by the community
You must be retarded. Flat earth? I pray to God daily, hoping He will help all the misguided liberals find their way. You, too, can be saved if you repent your evil ways."
LOL Saved from what?
PS is it only liberals that don't believe? LOL funny stuff.
I just love how the believers are trying the same old control lines on us that got them hooked. Guess what we don't believe so your threats from God don't bother us in the least. We are not worried about a fairytale coming to get us.
PS thanks for praying for us but according to this story it looks like your God isn't listening.
CJH, I have both knowledge and belief. I keep up as best I can with both the new theories of the scientific community and am continuing my education in religious studies. What I find so ridiculous is people trying to separate them; it has to be one or the other. The Truth can be found when they are brought together.
Linda,
Your beliefs are just fine, but they are not my beliefs. That is why the government and religion need to be seperate.
This can be firmly based on the new ability to share information or attain information via the internet. Now all it takes is a few searches and you can dig up the entire history of any particular religion. Discern it for what it REALLY is. Realize when it was written, why and by who or whom. And determine that it is nothing more than stories collected over thousands of years. Interpreted, re-interpreted and then indoctrinated into the minds of children during their formative years.
When you look at Christianity for one, you are looking at a story that has been told several times before. The symbology is symmetrical with so many other tales and stories from the same time frame in history. So much so that it could actually be classified as plagiarism.
The doomsaying hellwishers always tickle me.
It would be like if my parents, in all seriousness, decided to threaten me with the Boogeyman if I don't come to visit soon.
At least visiting them has a point, though, unlike religion.
Ann Coulter had written a book the title of which had something to do with liberals being Godless. Not being someone who claims to have any sure and definitive understand God, I read Ann's book hoping she might provide some insight. All I found was was Ann's usual bashing of anyone who had different opinions than her. The only thing I knew for certain after finishing Ann's book was that,if this is a God, Ann Coulter sure doesn't have the slightest idea as to what he, she or it is.
Once in a public high school sociology class the subject of God came up and the teacher demanded to know what kept him from stealing and raping and killing, if it weren't for the fear of judgement and eternal damnation?
The majority of the class responded with, "The police."
Another classmate asked how, given the incredible odds of life emerging on the Earth, how could it happen without a God? I said, "Sometimes you win the lottery."
Sorry guys, nothing magic occurs in my head, it can and will be explained with science.
I give you official permission to skip me in your prayers. That should save a few seconds.
I was discussing the whole, "I'll pray for you" thing yesterday...
It's presumptuous, the belief, that he/she needs to pray for me. His presumption there, is that his religion is correct, he's got it figured out, he knows what God wants, and I need help. Gross. He can go pray for his family or himself, and stop inserting his religion into my life. It's the same as when people knock on your door and want to preach to you. If that's all he can do, maybe he should ask me if I want him to. Maybe he should leave me to my beliefs, and keep his beliefs in his home, heart and church.
When you voluntarily stick your religion into a public forum, and engage with a stranger about it, YEAH, that strangers has every right to tell you to shove off. You don't want your religion "attacked", don't stick it in people's faces.
It's your choice, you are free to it practice it. The flip side of that, is I'm free to tell you to keep it away from me. Especially when you, without an invitation, engage me about it.
Call me crazy, but if you really want to "help" someone, shouldn't you ask what they need help with first? Or here's a thought? If they even want help?
Sarah and MJ,
You have hit the nail on the head. It is presumptuous to assume that others want your prayers. The religious right in this country assume that if you do not worship their god that you are some amoral, horrific being and so it is their duty to convert and pray for your poor "heathen" soul.
@Catydid - Amen, brother!
hey kcbones, you seem to think that all you have to do to go to hell is to be a non believer. what about all your believer "friends" who think YOU are going to hell because you believe the wrong things? that'll help bump up hell's population considerably.
KCBones,
Imagine an entity so perverse, so insecure, petty, barbaric, vile and unjust as to punish or reward based on nothing but belief?!! It matters none what we have done, only whether we 'believe right'. Are you F'n serious?? Do you listen to yourself?
My take on the "pray for you thing". I don't look at it as them shoving their religion on me. I look at it from a different point of view and I thank my friend daily for pointing it out to me. I prayer is a well wish. It is hoping for something good to happen for you. Sure, they hope that their prayer for you to convert to their religion will be answered (and you know that is not going to happen), and we know sometimes it is said out of blind hatred for what you do with your life. All in all, it is simply, to them, a wish for something better for you however misguided it may be. I am okay with people praying on my behalf for good things. I am pagan but I pray. I hope that one of the gods will answer my prayer (I figure someone or something is listening.) They feel better because they believe they are "saving" my poor, wretched pagan soul and overall, they tend to leave me alone after I simply say "thank you".So rather than be offended that they would dare use their god to pray for me, I figure at least it is one more voice bending the ear of a god on my behalf.
Hmmmmm? What do I see here? I see most people belittling those who don't believe along the same lines as they do. Like "I believe in God, so I'M best", and "I DON'T believe in God so I'm BEST". It goes right on down the line.....a fellow offers you a drink at a party and you say you don't drink, so they say Oh, you think you're better than he, Right? Or, someone offeers you a cigarette and you say you don't smoke and they say Oh, you think you're better than me, right? Get over yourselves everybody. Just because somebody doesn't agree with YOU doesn't mean you are right and they are wrong, it merely means you think along different lines. Take for instance if when you die you're just dead and turn back to the elements, Okay then, even the Christians won't know it, Hasta La Vista, Bay-Bee. But, what if those ol' christians are RIGHT (Heaven FORBID), I think there will be a few souls shaking in their boots, Hmmmmm? Don't jump down my throat or I'll tell Sally, remember as I have read on these vines many times, it is the weak mind that name calls. Peace.
The only ones being logical about this are agnostics because they are not making assumptions. I, however, chose to believe in God.
Education is the best cure for a case of religiosity.
And something we're increasingly falling behind on.
One breeds the other. Even with all of our technology and information, we're heading back toward an intellectual dark age. Hopefully the next enlightenment will be the one that finally leads mankind back towards reason rather than fantasy.
So true sane. The areas of our country, (and the world too!) with the highest religiosity, generally have the LOWEST educational levels, as well as the the highest teen pregnancy rates, highest divorce rates, highest domestic violence rates, etc. Can we say that strong religious belief causes these things? Probably not, but boy the COINCIDENCE!
My mother and I have had spirited arguments about religion. We had to agree to disagree.
She once said to me that I had had all the good sense educated out of me.
Maybe, but I find a comfort in logic and reason that I never felt in church hippcracy.
"Education is the best cure for a case of religiosity"
Indeed. There is a good reason why the ultraconservatives try to reduce funding for public schools and funnel the money to "faith based education" instead. There is a good reason for their fear and hatred of intellectuals. A free thinking mind cannot be yoked by dogma. A learned person rarely buys into the primitive "carrot and stick" options of eternal life or eternal damnation. What was the "original sin" according to the Bible itself? Tasting the fruit of the tree of knowledge...
The funny thing about this article... is that a greater amount of the crazed bible thumping types are "Republican"... when if you really read and understand the bible... if Jesus were alive today he would likely be a Democrat or maybe even a Socialist. Just say'in.
That loaves and fishes trick was pure socialism!!
Only women and gays end their thoughts with "just sayin".
i've seen "just sayin" from all sorts of folks. You need to pay more attention to improve the quality of your posts..unless you are aiming for "stupid". :)
No it was a miracle, socialism is a step towards hell.
socialism is a step towards hell? lol, that's funny. How so? This should be amusing. :)
So living in France or Canada is hell?
KC...only children and the mentally defective call people names based on the parameters of their behavior. Which one are you?
So which are you?
So which are you? Mentally defective or a child?
After all, you called KC that based on the parameters of his/her behavior.
Sounds like some people need to go look into our history, ya know the universe and evolution. Then come back and tell me that there is a man with a white beard looking down on me dictating my life. Give me a break it's cool if you want to live your life that way but, don't call me evil, pray all you want whatever makes you feel better at night. But, me I'm going to go live in the real world and learn about where we really came from and what the true answer about our universe are.. hopefully I'll probably die long before we figure it out. OH and BTW the bible doesn't account for you know the first couple BILLIONS of year the earth and the universe was in existence (that we know of) so how do you explain that? If I recall correctly and I could be wrong I don't follow this stuff closely, the bible only account for like what the last 2-3000 years? Just saying...
crystalbe,
Yep.
KCBones,
Wow. People like you are the reason people like me question why I fight for this country. I shouldn't but sometimes, I do. On the bright side, people like crystalbe bring me back to perspective. I still think you are a douche though.
Yes. It's from people who want to state their opinion, but don't want to held accountable for it. You know, cowards.
If you want to say something controversial, go right ahead. This is America. But don't hide behind "just sayin'" because you don't want flak for it.
On the other hand, people wouldn't feel the need to add "just sayin'" to their posts if those who disagreed with them didn't act like 8-yr-olds at recess.
What are you trying to say about women and gays? You do realize that your comment came off as an insult to over half the population? Not only that, but it seemed to relay that you can't stand women or gay men. Does that mean that your preferred group is straight me, and what does that say about you?
KC,
What happens if someone is a lesbian? Do they say it twice?
LMAO... Wow! I love how my post morphed into women and gays... then to psychiatry... then to evolution... Truely fantastic! :) I tend however to agree more with Crystalbe... but I was just pointing out the irony between Christians and the Republican political agenda. But great thread! Very entertaining.
Don't tell uneducated hypereligious folk to research evolution or anything scientific on their own.
They will invariably end up at the Discovery Institute's website and arm themselves with an arsenal of stupid.
Sarah, I think it's like a double negative... it just cancels out.
Sid Higgins: Over 60 years ago, I had a History teacher, an old maid, slightly hunchbacked, and who we knew was going to mass every morning. She told us once that Jesus was the first communist. That is something I have never forgotten.
The glass is still 4/5ths empty. 4/5ths of Americans still live in the dark.
well at least whenI last heard someone say, "This is a christian nation." I felt sorry for the fool. 19% non religious, then throw in islam, budim, wicca, unitarian, hindu etc, then the christian related religions that christians keep saying are not christian. Jehova's wittness, and Mormons. Then all the people who affiliate with a religion but don't really practice what they preach. Christmas only cathloics etc. Yep we got ourselves a pretty unchristian nation.
That explains the bruises all over my shins....stupid coffee table.... ;)
Good. It's time to push back politically. Tell the supporters of the Religious Right that if they don't love America, then they can leave it. And then hold the door open for them!
Organized religion is for people who need to believe in some mystical power who will watch over them and punish their enemies. This, of course, never actually happens, but they believe it will happen.
Are you some kind of all-knowing oracle?
Apparently mymomdidnotraiseafool has died and come back to life.
@StageOne - Compared to you, I certainly must be. I know enough not to believe in silly mumbo-jumbo.
@Ryanb21 - Actually, I've been alive the entirety of my existence, uninterruptedly. Which is all anyone gets. Ever.
Great so now that you know HOW it's impossible for consciousness to not fade away into nothing. Please enlighten mankind with this knowledge. After all, if you can't explain in detail HOW it's impossible then you must not actually know with 100% certainty what you're taking about... like the rest of humanity. Here's the funny thing about this... String theory, the most MATHEMATICALLY DENSE SCIENTIFIC theory of man suggests that there are an infinite number of universe. As far as we KNOW, this suggests everything you and I have ever done, or even IMAGINED exists somewhere, in not just one, but multiple universes. Fairies are inevitable. Do I assume this is certain? No. But despite string theory, you seem to magically know what happens to that which is not, at the very least yet, possible to observe. But you're welcome to follow a protocol of science that has utterly nothing to do with how OUR universe operates. I hate to break it to you, but things exist in our universe whether we prove them or not.
"I know enough not to believe in silly mumbo-jumbo."
Like the most mathematically dense scientific theory? OOPS! LOGICAL FALLACY.
This is why agnosticism is logical and religion/atheism is not. It does not make assumptions. Despite string theory, atheists magically have the ability to "know" one thing does not exist... without even explaining exactly HOW it's completely impossible for it to exist. After all if you can't explain how it's impossible then you don't actually know it is, in fact, impossible. But your welcome to prove that string theory is wrong. At least some people of faith can admit that they do not claim to KNOW but BELIEVE what they believe. The only problem with atheism is that it claims to be logical. it may be more logical than say, taking a religious text word for word, but it is not, in the end, logical. If I chose not to believe in God, logically, I would have to be agnostic. You're also welcome to explain how mathematics ultimately cannot describe existence.
number of universes**
Thank god. Last thing we need, is another generation filled with fear and shame about living. Religious control is worse than Communism.
Thank Who? You need to thank someone you believe in. Thanking God seems to indicate you are a closet believer.
Did you notice that "god" wasn't capitalized?
And that he didn't specify which god? Oh, I forgot, you know that there is only one true god, and that you have a direct line to him.
You're a master of procelytization, KC...with your charm and wit, you must be bringing flocks of people to the coven.
Glad you caught that Severed... definitely lower cased sarcasm. KC, it's people like you that try to put god into everything, or assume there is a back story where a "god" lurks. Religion WAS meant as a moralistic guideline. Unfortunately, it's now about power. Look at the wars. While you pray for our soldiers safety, know that they are fighting a war that stems wwwwaaaaayyyyyy back based on religion.
I wish for our soldiers safety, god or not. It's gods fault for a lot more things than it's given credit for.
I personally believe in the norse god, Odin. He is swell.
Thank Odin tolerant people like KC are here to properly represent fundamentalist christians in all their glory.
Thor is my favorite of all the godz man has invented, because I like lightning.
nah man worship heimdall hes watching for the wolves with his horn at the ready.
I'm proudly part of the 1 in 5. I also don't believe in the tooth fairy or the Easter bunny.
I really wish we would stop using religion as a reason to fight wars, make laws, or elect (or not elect) leaders.
Won't see you in the world to come!!! Sad.
Harry Downs,
What's tragic is an adult who believes in things without evidence. You've been brainwashed. You probably aren't violent, but you are holding society back in your own way. It's time you start learning to live with questions that may never be answered rather than have "answers" that may never be questioned.
You're proud to be in denial? I have seen the tooth fairy, but she prefers that I call her "mom." The Easter Bunny is real too -- it leaves pellets all year round.
Harry Downs-2517102
Won't see you in the world to come!!! Sad.
I LOVE the fact that religious are so judgemental! Allegedly, its a sin, but its ok if it makes them feel better. Looks like you've earned a shiny spot in hell next to us Harry! Cheers!
'Won't see you in the world to come!!! Sad.'
Yea Harry, real sad. I'm sure you and all your fellow sheeple are exactly the type of folks I'd love to hang out with for an entire @!$%#ing eternity.
Won't see you in the world to come!!! Sad.
I will be there. I will just be wearing a different body around my immortal soul. The Abrahamaic religions don't know anything about what comes next.
Harry,
SeeSince you see fit judge and predict the condemnation of others, it sounds as though you won't be making the cut either.
Science always wins ...eventually; religious fundamentalists who cannot adapt, find themselves increasingly isolated....and not without pain.
all I can say about these posts are WOW!
amazing isnt it
Lol. Wait another 10 years and we'll be 30% of the population (assuming we continue educating our kids).
@EngEsq - Don't discount the rate at which uneducated 16-year olds procreate.... they are a god-fearing bunch themselves.
Wow good discussion or Wow bad, what a bunch of screw heads?
This is what is wrong with our country. One nation under God.........remember? At least it used to be.
What's wrong with out country is that god was forced into EVERYTHING by fear. Believe if you want, but I don't, I live a great live, have non-religious based morals, and have raised two awesome daughters, without religious influence. They are free to explore, and if they find something they like, I will never condemn them. I just don't think it should be forced down our throats. Jesus never got a paycheck... why should these evangalists, and other religious leaders?
It never was. Just another fiction.
That's the problem. It didn't start that way. See the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli Article 11. It states that the United States was not founded on the Christian religion. It's changed from that.
Not until the 1950's......remember? And whose God are you talking about. The Hebrew one? The Catholic one? The Islamic one> The Hindu one? The Mormon one?
I amagine you're prefer a USA where church membership was required.
Well kfaulk - if you actually read and pay attention to history, you'll find that the 'under God' stuff was only added in like the 50s to counter Communism and try to show that God is on our side.
Originally, we were just One Nation (not under anything or seemingly favored by some mystical God), but people were in such fear that our One Nation was going to be lost to the scary communists that they had to make sure people knew God was on our side.
Wake up and learn.
Also "under God" was added in 1954 during the communism scare.
The Bible is enough history for me. No membership required. Do as you wish.
well, kfaulk, you can't on one hand claim to know something about the history of our country (which has only existed for a couple of hundred years) and also claim that the bible is enough history for you.
If you are intentionally going to remain ignorant of our country and its specific history, then maybe you shouldn't be making claims about it.
I always tolerated the Under god line in the pledge when I was a kid because I thought it was always like that. that bums me out that fear mongering forced its way into my oath.
You mean the bible that was written 300 years after Jesus' death and had been passed down from tribal savage to tribal savage up until then and then was completely changed and re-arranged by the scribes of the Catholic church to control the people? Yeah...what a great history book. You might want to try one written by an actual scholar...but what do they know, right?
Reaper, don't you know? Scholars are dangerous, they cause people to think and question--that's why the Catholic church turned its back on knowledge and scholarship in the early part of the 2nd millenium, thus spawning the dark ages and all of the horrors that resulted.
Put another way, knowledge is power, and religions don't want individuals to have any power.
Maybe this god worship IS the problem in this country kfaulk.........hard to reconcile invisible god with visable evidence of otherwise.
Kfaulk,
As pointed out "under God" was added to the PoA in the '50's, as a fifth grader then, I remember it well. It was a sop from President Eisenhower to the most rabid of the "better dead than red" clan. "Ike," a 5-Star General and WWII hero was vilified by the John Birch Right as "soft on communism," and the fact that his brother Milton was president of Columbia University, ergo, "an intellectual" confirmed the Eisenhowers' un-American tendencies.
Let's see, did "uG" prevent the murder of young Emmett Till, the bombing of a Birmingham Church and death of the choir girls, and so on? Point of fact "uG" pushers were the blood brothers and sisters of America's worst racists and anti-Semites. By way K, I'm a recovered Episcopalian and ethnically WASPy as all get out.
I'm not surprised by these numbers.
I think as we evolve and understand our universe we tend to turn away from these ancient beliefs. It's not to say we can't remain spiritual or philisophical, but we should move on from the antiquated teachings from a time when we didn't understand how things worked.
Tell us how do they work? Your the one that brought it up.
Well, we're reasonably sure the sun doesn't revolve around the earth, that diseases are caused by microorganisms, that the earth isn't 7,000 years old, that woman should have the same right sa men, that slavery is immoral... need I go on?
In your face sweaver209!!!! In yo face!!!
So Sweaver.... whaddya wanna know?
So Sweaver, Why did you run like hell ... what gives ?
Ah, my minions are growing!
Muahahahahahahahaha!!
Instead of praying to a "god", people are "praying" that the government will provide everything for them. It's not going to happen either way.
I highly doubt that the vast majority of Americans want the government to provide for them wholly. What I DO believe is that, knowing how wealthy this country is, that certain things SHOULD be provided (healthcare, education, public ASSISTANCE if we should ever fall on hard times).
I happen to be one of those people, after all if the government can't HELP it's people then why have one? ESPECIALLY with all the resources that it has at its disposal. Not many are looking for the government to feed and clothe them but rather providing an alternative solution to private industry. Capitalism is GREAT until greed comes into play...don't you think??
I want to write a comment, but it's obvious that the people reading and writing to this vine wouldn't understand! So sad!!!
I hear ya. I thought the same thing.
You believe in God, and it bothers you that other people don't... am I close?
Precisely Doug. People of faith can't be truly happy until everyone drinks their Kool Aid.
why would that be?
I don't get it.
Personally I don't care what other people believe. What I don't want is people telling me what I must believe.
I'll cut in line to drink the Jim Jones Kool Aid.
plsthink90
why would that be?
we would explain but you "wouldn't understand".
Prophecy unfolding right before our eyes!!! wont be too much longer now I Pray:-D
lol, people have been predicting the "end times" based on all the "unbelievers" for 2000 years now.
People see what they want to see. :)
Yeah, Obama is the Anti-Christ, right?
Hey Severed, I actually had our admin at work tell me that the other day. I just busted out laughing at her; which was rude on my part, but holy crap, people will believe the strangest things. She actually believes we are living in the biblical end times.
I know a couple of people who believe that, too. Personally I believe that Glenn Beck is the Anti-Christ.
Unfortunately, so does my husband. Love the crap out of him except for that part. It makes it hard to plan a future when he thinks he's going to be Raptured before we can save enough money for a house.
Sweaver is nothing more than a right wing nutjob tr0ll check out his next post. LOL
I can understand why he or whatever it is, is so religious. Rationale is out the window on this one....
Wow! twenty percent of us are FREE THINKERS? Fantastic news if true.
And most of them free thinkers think all things should be free, and that free is coming out of my labor and my back pocket. You carry your own load, please!!! So that when i'm down and out, you will be able to share with me!! How's that work for you?? Free thinker!!!
sweaver - try looking up the population of the Bible Belt and see how many of those people are getting things for 'free' and how much tax dollars those states receive back for what they put in.
stop trying to make your imagination believing that people who don't believe in your God take all the free stuff...or wait, tell me how much your church pays in taxes?
When you're down and out your church can take care of you. I assume your principles won't allow you to accept any aid the government might provide to you.
Yes, SWeaver...that's what makes you such a great christian...begrudging "giving" to those you feel don't deserve it while at the same time unfairly villifying people who's stories you don't know. Yep, you're a great example of a modern christian and, I think, the reason many people are finally coming to their senses. If being like you means being a christian, I'll happily burn in hell.
The number of "free thinkers" is actually a fraction of that 20%. The article was fairly clear that number consisted of people who just don't think about religion, and that's a big disparity AFAIC.
Thinking about every way God or a god can't exist is biased free-thinking.
sweaver, why do you hate the idea of helping people out so much when it's a big part of your religion to do so?
Actually, sweaver, us free thinkers tend to be more educated and earn more than our religious peers. We pay for YOU.
And you know what? I don't begrudge the people I help, even when they are religious. I give blood, even though statistically it is most likely to go to a religious person. I give to our local school, even though most of the attendees are religious. I pay into United Way, even though most beneficiaries are religious. And I support my taxes going to welfare for the downtrodden, even though they are almost assuredly religious.
Linda M: That thing you experienced that brought you to believe? That was what we call an orgasm.
We know your first was mind bending, but believe, or not, it can happen again.
As for the rest of you, back off the 'god' thing, or you'll plss her (God) off.
Our Father, which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come.
Thy will be done in earth,
As it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive them that trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,The power, and the glory,For ever and ever. Amen.
Lord forgive them for they know not what they do. How soon we do forget when everyone turned to God after 9-11. Thank God we have religious freedom....but who knows how long this is going to last.
people turned to god after 9/11? I didn't notice that (but maybe it happened)? I did see an increase in religious intolerance against "foreign religions" (islam, obviously, but also hinduism, etc).
I see us having religious freedom forever myself.
Hey, I didn't turn to God. In fact, as I recall, one of the biggest stories in the immediate aftermath of 9-11 was the priest pedophilia scandal
Yes...so many of your religion freedoms have been threatened thus far.
Some people (some of whom are posting in this thread) feel that it's a threat to their religion if they aren't allowed to force it on others.
When we have freedom FROM religion....that's how long it will last.....
Hey Karen, how many of your xian brothers and sisters live by that line "As we forgive them that trespass against us."
Cuz I'm not seeing it.
Hey Karen,
I didn't turn to God after 9/11. I turned to the bathroom, so I wouldn't @!$%# my pants in fear. Then I turned to reason, to try to logically figure out a way to create good, from horror.
You turned to Jesus after 9/11??? Really? So the question shouldn't be, "What would Jesus do" but "Who would Jesus bomb". Because, if our response to the Arab world after 9/11 was "Christ Like", I'm Glenda the Good Witch, and we all know I'm more on par with the one from the west.
What!?! You are clearly nuts.
Karen, dear Karen
" Science and reason fly people to the Moon; Religion and faith fly people into tall buildings." ANON
"Faith is believing in something you know just ain't so." Samuel Clemens AKA Mark Twain
"If you don't pray in my school; I won't think in your church." Lottsa ACLU members
I have my faith but it doesn't override logic and reason. As far as branding the republican party that is utter nonsense orchestrated by the far left. I am neither party affiliated just conservative but I know enough that there are those on the extreme in both parties.
and this tripe matters to whom?.... and why was it "studied" to begin with? i would be more concerned with why since as a nation we supposedly shouldn't be religious according to the libs.. yet MUST respect Islam and its followers....WTF is that?
i am not religious.... but damn people ...........
Islam is no less mythical than the others (as far as I know, which I admit isn't much)
Doug ol' buddy you can get your head chopped off for saying stuff like that in countries around the world, let's just hope your president doesn't bring it to this country none to soon. Islam is not mythical, it's the Devil, Satan, Hell, eternal damnation!!! Oh i just had to say it for the world to see. Bring it on!!! I know where i stand, i'm not worried. And my God is saving me everyday. You poor shallow people!!! Me! Me! Me!
Trying to scare me into being like you? Sorry ol' bud.. you're the narcissist!
lol, "obama bringing islam to the us" is your fear? you're funny. Good grief, you "obama is a muslim" people are crazy.
Don't the Islamists call the U.S.A. the "Great Satan" and Israel the "Little Satan"? It seems like it's the M.O. of fundamentalists everywhere to equate the foe of the hour with the metaphysical forces of evil.
sweaver, you sound very hateful for someone who is supposed to be loving thy neighbor. you are the epitome of why people are moving away from religion.
the truly religious one's, not the one's who just say it, but live it every day. how do you feel about religon and politics?
As clergy I can tell you it is a struggle to keep politics out of the church. It is my opinion that if the church did what it is call to do, serve all with love and humility, we would transform the world in far greater ways than any legislation ever will. It is disheartening thou, that many with the same opinion have or are leaving the church.
There is no discussion of politics at my church. You are free to vote however you want, and if you don't vote that's OK too. God is first, Country is second!!! Sharing, giving and looking out for the least of my brothers comes first.
Sweaver, it sounds as if you have found a wonderful church. Good for you and I hope it helps you to continue to grow in love.
Mike, how would you make a distinction between people who "just say" they are religious vs. people who "live it"? I suppose most of us believers like to think we make an effort to live out our beliefs, although the most basic of Christian beliefs is that none of us can do that consistently--that's why we need Christ in the first place. I guess my point is that it's super easy to point the finger at someone else and say they're a hypocrite, but it's much more difficult to recognize it in yourself.
So anyway, at the risk of being shown a hypocrite, I am a regular church-goer and I support Christian causes financially and with my time. So maybe I am "living it" somewhat. In answer to your question, I think religion, if you take it seriously, will compose your most basic beliefs and worldview. It is impossible to divorce yourself from that at the ballot box. However, there is a difference between letting your beliefs influence the direction you think your country should be headed and making politics the focus of your religious belief. In the past year, I have switched churches because I felt that the church I was in had started to focus as much on politics as on the gospel of Christ. Many confuse the Republican (or Democratic) party platform for biblical Christianity, and that's just not the case. At all. My Christ's kingdom is not of this world.
This is what scares me the most. God before country.......and they call themselves "patriots" and "Americans." So sad.......
Sniffle, what do you have to say about non-believers who give of their time and money to help those who need it? We seem to be doing that without "needing Christ," so I'm wondering why you feel that you do?
In reponse to Mike on Religion and Politics - The only reason to stress about politics is if you believe that God isn't sovereign.
Ransom, I am by no means saying religious people are better or more kind than others. I think we all need Christ because none of us is without guilt. Non-religious people do good things all the time, but only the most arrogant would claim to have lived a perfect life. The bible says it like this: "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and "All we, like sheep, have gone astray." It also says, "The wages of sin is death." That means sin is an offense against God's infinite perfection--pretty serious. There is no way back from that in human terms. But God, being infinite, can erase even an infinite offense. That is what He sent Christ Jesus to do by taking our punishment on himself.
You are free to believe this or not. Believing will not automatically make you a better person and it will not make your life easier. But it will make you clean in the eyes of God. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to express this to you.
Have you read the Old testament just curious? "Infinite perfection" I guess Ive answered my own question.
Congrats, Jason, you prompted me to finally formulate my response on this topic. Let's take it off this board, though, since it is off-topic: http://sniffletx.newsvine.com/_news/2012/10/10/14345658-christianity-and-the-old-testament.
Was there even a point to this poll other then to display their biasness?. No wonder our country is rotting as more people believe their actions on earth will have no consenquences once they die. Myself I do believe in God yet I don't believe religion should be the buisness they all have become. Ok let the attacks begine!!!!.
I found it interesting. Pew does a lot of polls, and they keep doing them over time so we can see trends.
I think blaming "rot" in our country from changing religious attitudes is an interesting claim. Care to describe it more?
@7.62x39mm
Baiting a flame war is against the Newsvine Code of Honor. As such you have been reported.
That's because there are no consequences after we die--there is nothing. That whole consequences deal is just a way to try to get people to toe a specific line.
I live my life trying to be good to other people, to help the less fortunate, and to raise my children to do the same--but I don't need the threat of an eternal pit of fire to motivate me to do so, it's just the right thing to do.
I don't like organized religion as I believe it breeds contempt and a feeling of being better than someone outside of your "chosen" religion. But I do believe this country's shift away from religion is contributing to it's downfall. The drug problem amongst the generation of 20 to 40 is really sad and it has contributed significantly to the next generations lack of respect for themselves, rules and social stability. The values and morals exhibited by "kids" these days is disgusting.
Check your facts. The RATES of drug use among younger people is going down....just as rates of murder, rape, and other violent crimes are also down over the last 20 years.
Then again, people were saying the same thing you are in the 1950s....those damn pool halls and that rock n' roll will be the end of us all!
Religion does NOT necessarily lead to being a moral person. Perhaps the increase of drug use among younger generations is because "kids" these days have to watch while their childhood homes go into foreclosure, and there is nothing they can do about it. "Kids" these days are feeling the affects of the poor economy too, and maybe "kids" these days seem to think that no "God" in "His" right mind would do that to people "He" "created" and "cares" about. "" "" ""!
I also think that the downfall of the human race came about from religious extremists. Look at the Medieval times. Instead of Christians thinking "hmmm...maybe we should wash our hands" during the Bubonic plaque, they blamed on Jewish people because they weren't getting the plaque as much because their religious beliefs forces them to be more germ-free (I.E. Don't let animals into your house). Of course, the Christians didn't use science to solve the problem.
And how can you generalize younger generations so easily? Have you met them all? Just because some kids don't have great morals and values does not necessarily mean it's because they have no religion. I grew up doubting the religion I was baptized into, but that didn't send me spiraling into total chaos and turn me into a druggie. It made me more open-minded. I agree that religion divides people, but moving away from religion doesn't turn the whole country into a moral disaster.
J Clark,
I'm not sure what statistics you are using, but as far as I'm aware, drug use has either stayed flat or declined (percentage-wise).
Every generation has gone throught the "we're going to hell in a handbasket" phase. Just look at the 1860's and the civil war, or 1910's with WWI, or the 1920's with prohibitions and the surgence of gangsters, or the 1930's with the dustbowl and the depression, or 1940's with WWII, or the 1960's with the presidential assasinations, vietnam, and the civil rights struggles ... you get the picture.
If anything we are all but par for the course in the 2010's. So relax, the country is not falling apart and we don't need religion to fix it. That is just a fallacious arguement. Think of the days we are living as just another pendullum swing - which is hard to see thru the fearmongering in today's 24x7 media.
When I was a teenager, I worked as a cashier at a supermarket that was located a block from a church. A majority of those people who attended mass at that church, would come in and shop after mass, and treated us like dirt. We were beneath them, as far as they were concerned. So the idea of lack of religion is absurd. It's the mentality that someone in a higher station in life is better and is entitled to not let those beneath them forget it.