First, my prayers for anyone who may need them for this disaster.

We have the toughest building codes in the country. The left always likes to blame it on deregulation, but the REAL problem will be that a GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL failed us. You see, we have gone from regulations with teeth to just adding regulators that can be bought and paid for.

Too many of those pesky federal regulations made it collapse. We need more deregulation so more don't fall down.

This garage is being built from pre-cast parts, since the truck and crane are right there, I would lean to the crane bumped a colum.

wonder how much of the building supplies they were using was made in china?

Love how people jump to conclusions that know absolutely nothing about construction.

Its so easy to go through life for a lot of these people as an arm chair quarterbacks

Save the "concrete didn't have time to cure" "Deregulation did it" "it was made in China" and "big bird did it out of anger" conspiracies. These garages are now pre-fab and snap together like the Lincoln Logs you played with as a kid. From the support columns to the driving decks, they are all made in pre-cast yards and trucked in. This will come back to multiple people not doing their jobs correctly from the assembling contractor straight through to city inspectors.

Red_Cloud

that is exactly what the country needs, more deregulation.

Agreed. Combine that with more jail time for the people who designed and/or built a shoddy structure or the inspectors who got paid off to look the other way.

This was a government building and nobody cuts corners like a Government Contractor. The Government always pays at least 3 times more than its worth and always get a substandard product. But they get their Bag Money and that's all they care about. It's not like the Politicians will be sending their children to a Community College.

Say What is right. My money points to an install issue (which might include failure on inspector's part).

Structure wise these are very common, very sound, and the nature of how it works (including gets to the job site) would suggest the construction of the parts themselves is most likely not the issue. Not ruling it out as it needs and will be looked at but I'd say chances are slim that was the problem. Again most likely the install process; maybe crane operator error?

BTW these are all made in America and last time I checked we don't get ready mix concrete from China. Same for all the other materials that make up ready mix concrete. Rock, sand, water, cement, additives.

zuksam - yes and no. Cost wise due to red tape BS they usually do pay more and it can be alot. Substandard usually not. Sometimes maybe but it really does depend. Usually these jobs get extra scrutiny do to their nature and anything serious like structure is always watched close. Finishes would be more what I think you are referring to. Politicians have nothing to do with the actual construction or design, might have influence on who is selected I suppose but really have nothing else to do with it. Their blame is for the BS and cost that the TP have to pay for the red tape they created.

Whatever the case, as I posted below, condolences to the family and loved ones of those lost.

It is time

Probably "MADE IN CHINA"... Hey, everything else is!

Nice! It took exactly two posts before some jaggoff made this into a political statement.

Typical Miami construction! I just moved from there about 5 months ago. Scam artists and scoundrels prevail! Similar to China!

I wonder if it was engineering or construction failures or maybe a little bit of both?

Wow! You folks are really something. It took only until the second post to this thread to turn even a fatal construction accident ...political.

Really, people? How pathetic! And what a pathetic statement of what has become of our American rhetoric.

Some of us urgently need to reassess our lives, and take a long introspective look at our reflections in the mirror and see what type of people we have become.

If EVERYTHING is political to you, how do you then NOT define yourself as "narrow-minded" and "fixated"; neither of which are healthy for the human spirit, or for being a welcome and valued part of a civil society.

If your rhetoric and behavior in your personal lives is even in part as you comport yourselves on-line (in the security of your on-line anonymity), what then do you suppose members of your family, and your colleagues and your friends are thinking about your personal character as you speak, and saying about you when you are not present? Almost certainly it is not favorable.

Food for thought.

Wait, Big Bird did it?!?!

After Thanksgiving he will be GONE!

Florida is a Right-To- Work / Anti-Union state.

See what that gets you ? Collapsing buildings.

Ah, the lowest bidder strikes again.

Coming down pancake style makes me think possibly substandard/incorrect bolts. Something easily overlooked. Guess we'll find out later.

On the bright side, at least it wasn't finished and full of students.

I've a novel idea, let's get more information before casting blame. Speculation I can understand, but definite blame, more information please? And as was noted earlier, thank goodness no fatalities at this point and hope everyone will be alright.

Big Jeff How do you get a political statement out of the second post? I didn't.

@windancersomething- thank goodness no fatalities at this point and hope everyone will be alright

Unless I am mistaken, I believe the headline reads " Two dead after parking garage collapses..." That would be 2 fatalities, and no, they will not be alright.

pancaked.. dang ...looked like it flap jacked...

for any of you who aren't from Florida, but have the balls to comment on everything that happens in Florida,

well guess what,

there's a very good chance most of you have gone there for you vacations and all have done your fare share of bitching and complaining about what things cost you while you're on your vacations, and it's people in Florida that happen to have to live on less because all of you

"TERRORIST", i mean tourists have driven the economy to the point where people in Florida can only get the work that is offered by the clowns who claim to be spending too much there when you don't spend all that much when you consider what you demand is so much for the little you do actually spend.

After looking at the photo and seeing how LARGE this parking garage is and how many levels there are, I shudder to think what a disaster this could have been were it full of cars. I'm very sorry for the families of those construction workers who were killed and injured.

(And, please folks, let's wait to see what the cause is determined to be before you start blaming the workers, the inspectors, the regulations, the China connection, the weather and big bird. Jeez. Just WAIT.)

Too much regulation caused the garage to collapse? I thought that the teachers union caused it.

But hey - this is what happens in third world nations. Those great businessmen - they always do the right thing. Nobody cut corners. It was just an act of god. And the republicans reading this will think that I am not being sarcastic.

What can I say..don't know the victims..RIP guys!. Chit happens!!

When your number is up...can't refuse..do as told!

AG99

yep-per, my first thought.

@ BigJeff-2931255

Before you call anyone else a "jaggoff" in the future consider this:
"Man is a Political Animal" as defined justifiably by Aristotle OVER 2300 years ago. And since then this definition is more adequate every day that passes by.

POLITIC$ is what sets us apart from the rest of the animals on this shrinking miserable rock.
- Without POLITIC$ there would be no Progress or Leadership.
- Without POLITIC$ there would be no Wars or Peace.
- Without POLITIC$ there would be no Creativity or Evolution.
- Without POLITIC$ there would be no Rich or Poor
- Without POLITIC$ there would be no Revolution or American Dream.
- Without POLITIC$ there would be no Unhappiness or Search for a Better Life

We would be just like cattle or sheep without the ability to improve living conditions or seek Justice.

So consider this before posting in the future: "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you're a fool than open it and remove all doubt"

....and change your name to BigJeff-101

Deone Hoonoz.:

You make great points, however every article doesn't have to turn political and they always do. Regardless of the topic of the article someone will make a politically motivated comment that has nothing to do with the story.

Who needs TERRORIST with Contractors and Architects like these.

In Miami it's a miricle if they know how to count at all.

Engineer is probably a public school grad. And then an Equal Opportunity college 'scholar'. Looks like some buildings in Panama.

Yvonne, I can count in more than one language and have lived here my whole life.

That is your brilliant input on a disaster where people died. Pathetic!

Yvonne C.

In Miami it's a miricle if they know how to count at all.

sure they do...uno, dos, tres....

Yvonne, miricle?, and yes we can count . can you? :)

Maybe a metric to imperial conversion error again?

"miricle"??? You don't know how to spell!

I worked for an engineer for 15 yrs, any engineer worth anything knows when the answers are wrong. The one I worked for did all the design on a computer program them would check all the calcs with pencil & calculator. Believe me they keep good records too of every calculation.

I had another thought that might of caused the failure. This was in Miami, the water table is only a few feet deep being so close to the ocean. If they didn't wellpoint the footings properly or set the the footings on bedrock that could be the cause. Anytime before constuction begins they have to do soil borings to check the load the ground can take usually a min. of 3,000 PSI on this type of structure I would think.

PSF not PSI my mistake.

roman and gothic architecture had it right, we are still building boxes..

marlene hessler

Engineer is probably a public school grad. And then an Equal Opportunity college 'scholar'. Looks like some buildings in Panama.

Everything that you've done in your life professionally has been the result of equal opportunity. You might want to consider that before making another stupid comment.

I am curious as to the exact reason why it fell, I'm pretty sure you're right, the contractor is going to have some serious explaining to do. I feel sorry for the family and friends of the one that passed away.

agree with you joel,,, cure time is critical in presstress concrete, agree that design issue would be very unlikley due to numerous items are the same, such as columns,double tees, walls, etc..joel you must be in the concrete business...

Joel - good points. It does make me wonder though is since this is a common and very standard precast column and double tee job. Engineering wise, very sound and nothing out of the ordinary. Most parking garages are built this way, just with different facades for architectural look.

Then being precast they should've been checked leaving the plant and had to have some cure time to be lifted onto trucks, of which is usually 7 days, to be enough for structural capacity with the remaining 21 days to get to full strength if not already there at the 7 (Most concrete work 7 days gets you the needed strength anymore). So maybe a failure in the prestressed reinforcing could be to blame, but my guess is a potential crane operator error or other failure. Structure wise I'm guessing everything was sound and that it had to be with the install process somewhere. It will be interesting to find out.

At any rate condolences to those who lost loved ones and best of luck to those injured, get well soon (I would never want to be the owner or foreman who has to tell the family what happened). At the same time thankful this wasn't something that happened with a loaded garage should it end up being a structural issue, could've been many times worse. Time will tell. Eitherway companies involved better be getting their stories straight, likely to be a very long and painful process (no disrespect to those lost or injuried BTW, their pain and suffering is worse).

It is time

Crane operator error? As I understand it this type of construction is not super strong until all the parts are in place.Crane knocking down a support column and the whole thing comes down?

Joel, all these parking decks now a days are pre engineered prestressed concrete. They are built off sight & trucked in when needed. The companies that make these have been doing it for awhile I don't think they would make a mistake. The concrete columns have haunches that they sit the parking decks on. The columns & decks have metal plates embeded & they are welded together no bolts or anything. My money is on insufficient footings or it only takes just one to fail.

It could have been an error by the crane operator as a piece of the precast structure was being placed. Or perhaps a cable snapped (or something else failed on the crane) and dropped a heavy piece in the wrong spot. I'll bet the contractors wish they had a video of the incident. It would really help the investigation. Finding the cause, and broadcasting it through the industry, is the only way to prevent similar tragedies.

As cheap as it is to make and store images now, perhaps it will become standard procedure to set up a few cameras to record the assembly. The recordings could be archived with the calculations and drawings as part of the CYA documentation of the structure.

Quite often the corner cut was in hiring unskilled labor. Also have seen crews that had a big communication gap. No Abla Inglay.

Interested in the actual cause or series of events. But, the bang is gone and this story will probably be put to rest. Don't want to interfere with Lohan shenanagins and such.

That's it, actually it's Falls Church, I lived in the north tower in the 90's, it was the south tower that collapsed, it is a 26 story building. iirc it was at 24 stories when it collapsed. Building actually has nice large units.

No, more like the current administration blames everything on his GOP predecessor INSTEAD of doing anything constructive about it! Barack's gotta go cause he's more worthless than a crack hoe!

Howlin'MadMac:

Maybe instead of believing everything that you hear that's negative about the President, you might want to do some fact checking on your own. But that might mean that you have to redirect the energy that you waste on hate for something productive.....

Guessing (isn't that what this forum is about) that it was more a time line thing than an engineering one.

If you have a deadline to meet you sometimes ignore the basics of construction.

Then again, would like to know why.

Hope that the missing are well. Sad loss for the family of the other.

Yvonne C.

Welcome to the shotty construction techniques of Miami-Dade County. It's a miracle not more things have fallen apart here.

?Que? No comprendo...

Actually, using a competitive negotiations proposal is the best solution. Use evaluation criteria to determine the 'best bang for the buck' offer.

Does not happen in my market. They utilize the 'reverse bid' process.

G.C.'s are also guilty (at times)(and not all of them) of bidding cost to get the job then going back on the subs for 'value engineering' (translated to-'if you want the job you best drop your price')

I have seen pitiful workmanship passed off as 'Industry Standard' (translated-that's what you paid for)

Marlene

Use evaluation criteria to determine the 'best bang for the buck' offer.

Perhaps you should read the article on Kennebunk, Maine and Zumba training

@Freedom Yeah I've seen that behavior and it's pretty lame. Fortunately the subs only put up with that like two or three times tops but it's almost causes a pain in my gut to see the "pitiful workmanship" that is a result of that.

The other problem J-B is once you set a precident by playing that game it becomes a whirlpool.

For every sub that says 'enough is enough' there seems to be at least one that will come forward and fill their shoes.

Its called sub contracting to non union contractors. unskilled workforce, cheap labor, poor workmanship, no pride in your work, right to work at its best. Somebody forgot to set the rat traps at the construction orientation process.

I've seen your work. Makes no-sense. sounds like you may have some info on Hoffa

@ Ironworker - I've seen fantastic workers that were non-union and ones that were union. I've seen horrible workers that were non-union and ones that were union. I have to say in all honestly though, I've seen more horrible workers that were union than non-union. In those cases the union backed the lousy workers to the hilt. Most lousy non-union workers I've seen were fired.

FYI the company I work for only hires union workers and we refuse to do work with certain locals that provide lousy workers and refuse to police their own members. We also have had to avoid certain areas in the country where the non-union workers have out bid and out performed union workers to the point we can't compete. We also have certain companies we would like to bid work for but they refuse to entertain a bid from us because they refuse to "deal" with unions.

I have often thought that most companies would be better off throwing out the low bid and high bid and negotiate the middle bids.

And my years of construction have taught me that all it takes for a poor design to become a reality is the proper assembly of unskilled labor at a bargain basement price.

Then again, interested in the facts that are yet to come.

Best to the unfortunate victims.

That assumes the contractor knows where to put the extra materials. In my experience, the contractor guessing often results in wasted materials AND deficient construction.

This case looks an awful lot like construction error - one bay completely collapses while the rest remain standing. It's unlikely the design was unique in just that one bay.

Space Shuttles get built the same way!

No they didn't.

You are correct. A big change came with 'the guy that invented the internet'. He stated that a box of cake mix is a box of cake mix and it was a waste of time and taxpayer money to provide specifications when buying food for our military troops. Eeyore Gore is the wingnut on this one. Any housewife can tell you differently. This applied to food, uniforms, equipment, air and space equipment. You cannot fix stupid, but you can do workarounds.

You can not fix stupid

but you can vote it out of office.

Low bid works very well IF you have someone who knows how to write a bid. You must know the strength of concrete & steel, codes, standards, etc. If you don't know them, going high bid won't help.

@ Debbie - One of the problems you run up against is when you build something like this, you expect that most of the materials not only meet specs/code but exceed it. It's questionable what will happen when all the materials barely meet specs/code.

Engineers will sometimes try to guard against this by going up one or two notches in specs to prevent all the material from being too close to minimums or below spec. These days this happens less and less because of the great cost in making those steps and as the owner sees it, if everyone does their jobs right, there won't be any below spec materials or workmanship. Besides a lot of things are built today on minimum budgets. Often times the first design is thrown out as too expensive and the engineers have to go back and shave costs or the thing doesn't get built at all. Hopefully they don't shave it too far.

NO, it isn't. If you weren't at 'ground zero', and you didn't see it in person, you can't make that comparison. The debris in NYC covered blocks. It was on top of neighboring buildings, it was lodged in neighboring buildings, and it covered streets. The WTC pancaked into its own basement and was also piled quite high. People had to climb up to get into it. This was NOT a very big pile in Florida.

Did you that INSPECTORS (of building codes) are NOT EVEN REQUIRED to have an education in that field NOR any knowledge of the codes?

They don't even KNOW HOW, let alone actually do something to PROTECT PEOPLE!

There are some many FUNDEMENTAL EFFEN PROBLEMS with society and how Gov't Mule has made it "WORK" for the People.

My last comment was supposed to start as "DID YOU KNOW..."

We kinda figured that out Shanny

Not here, this is Florida - blame the people who crossed the border under the cover of darkness.

Or blame the Jedi. Either way there are no facts presented that would lead to almost (mind you I said almost) any of these conclusions.

The only one that holds any water based upon observation is Robyn56 - pre-cast being set-a nudge in the wrong direction and volare - dominos (mmmmmmm-Pizza)

Sorry, I meant Voltaire

Nudged a touch....

Just one size down on the rebar...

Just a little weaker concrete mix to cement the seams...

NOTHING gets inspected properly!

Once again, somebody get a block of cheese for this frackin' RAT! Thanks to UNIONS, we all enjoy the weekend, 8 hour work day, 5 days u frackin' idiot!