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Subscribe to RSSThe parents of Trayvon Martin responded to George Zimmerman's defense team's request to release their son's school records, saying they "shouldn't make dead children seem as though they are the perpetrator."
Updated at 3:40 p.m. ET: A judge ruled on Friday that attorneys for George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch leader charged with second-degree murder in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, can have access to the dead teen's school records and social media accounts.
Circuit Judge Debra Nelson, who is the new presiding judge in this highly publicized and emotional case, said that Zimmerman's attorneys can subpoena Trayvon Martin's schools for his discipline records but must keep anything they obtain private.
"I think that you're entitled to those records," Nelson said during the hearing at the Seminole County Courthouse in Sanford, Fla.
The judge also granted Zimmerman's request to subpoena Trayvon's social media records, which were removed from the Internet after his death, as well as those of a girl who says she was on the phone with him before the shooting.
Before the proceedings started, Martin's family held a news conference that took a preemptive strike against the subpoena of those records.
"We think it’s a terrible precedent to set," said attorney Ben Crump, who held a press conference with Trayvon Martin’s parents, Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton. "Why is it relevant about his school records or his Facebook page? George Zimmerman knew none of that on Feb. 26 when he claimed Trayvon's life."
The shooting took place when Zimmerman encountered Martin, 17, who was unarmed and walking through the Sanford neighborhood where his father lives.
Zimmerman, 29, has pleaded not guilty and is set to face trial June 10, 2013. He remains out on bail and is in seclusion.
Zimmerman appeared in court wearing a suit and tie, and he sat quietly while his attorney Mark O’Mara made his case for access to the records.
O’Mara said the defense wants the Twitter and Facebook accounts "in their entirety" of Martin as well as a witness — a girl who was on the phone with him when he encountered Zimmerman. The girl was not named because she is a juvenile.
O’Mara conceded that it "sounds horrible" to evaluate the reputation of the shooting victim, but he said that the records were crucial to showing that his client did not act with "ill will or hatred" of Martin.
"The issue in this case is who did what during those couple of minutes that we don’t know what happened," O'Mara said.
Zimmerman maintains that Martin attacked him and beat him.
O’Mara told the judge that although the Facebook and Twitter accounts had been removed from the Internet, he has been able to access — though not authenticate — enough of the social media accounts to demonstrate that "that information could be very, very relevant to my defense."
Benjamin Crump, attorney for Trayvon Martin's parents, speaks to reporters prior to a hearing on whether the court will allow the teen's school records to be included in a trial of his shooter George Zimmerman. Crump is flanked by Trayvon's father Tracy Martin, left, and his mother Sybrina Fulton.
Crump, the attorney for Martin's family, said that if the court calls for the release of Martin's school records and social media postings, the family would demand the release of Zimmerman’s medical records, which he argued were far more relevant to finding out what happened on the night of Martin's killing.
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"If this was your child who was shot and killed, wouldn't you want to know … if there were drugs that influenced (the shooter’s) judgment or decision making?" he said.
On Friday, Judge Nelson did grant a prosecution request for Zimmerman's medical records, though she said she will review the medical records first to decide whether anything should be withheld.
This was the first hearing in the highly publicized case to come before Nelson, who replaced the previous judge, Kenneth Lester, in August after a judicial panel found that Lester had begun to form opinions about Zimmerman that could affect his impartiality.
Martin's family also announced the establishment of a Change for Trayvon committee that will press for a change in Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law, which could be used in Zimmerman’s defense. That law allows use of force in self-defense when there is a reasonable belief of an unlawful threat.
Martin's parents said they want the wording of the law to state that someone cannot instigate a fight and then claim self-defense.
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The records have everything to do with this case. Facebook and his Twitters will show the thug mentality and a pot smoking pre-gang banger. Will there be details in there for Travons expulsion from school for selling drugs to kids? Yep, I am sure it will all be there and why the parent don't want them released.
This is key to show what this "sweet kid" was all about and why he was expelled fro school.
And the records from Zimmerman: spupousal abuse, assult on a police officer, antidepressant drugs, anger management classes--court ordered. When the shooting occurred..neither of the people involved had ever met eachother. Neither knew anything about the others history. This trial isn't about what they did in the past. Its about what they did on the night of the shooting. Zimmerman has a worst past but we can't try him on that. Just show he had a propensity for Violence.
Whatever the kid walking home did at highschool, he was doing Nothing walking home that night. Nothing. No crime, no reason whatsoever to be frightened by a strange man following him for no apparent reason. A man with a gun who scared him to death.
The victim is dead and is gone in grave that no need dig into school records. Need get in George's medical records at the time of his shooting that kill victim because George has POLICE RECORDS. Not Trayvon. Why bother dead victim's record that can't bring back the dead. Only the live one still walking not the dead. This makes no sense to me at all. Leave Martin family alone. They suffer enough. George should never have a gun since he already had 3 medications and can't be a cop at all. Get a life, George!!! Accept for what you did to a minor age kid and be a man!!! George, be like anybody else, take and accept for what you did to a kid. Both of you are not angels. Sorry that Trayvon wasn't great kid like you George. George was worst one cuz he had been court many times. Trayvon never did. So Be It!!! God bless Martin's family!!!
Lovely - because they defense is trying to build character issues against Martin. The only witness/proof is the man who killed someone - so tehy are trying to build the case to say he was a thug, and his attacking Zimmerman was in character with the previous history of Martin. It is very relevant.
So it's OK to bring up Zimmerman's records, but god forbid we look into Trayvon's past? What kind of person he was? Whether he was capable of attacking Zimmerman, as Zimmerman claimed?
C'mon, at least try to be objective or, failing that, at least self consistent.
LOL, seriously people?
Yeah, his poor academics performance and social postings made Zimmerman shoot him.... bend over backwards more to dance around the facts.... even if, him being "thug-ish" doesn't justify him being chased down and killed.
And yes you do look into the past to establish a pattern of behavior of a violent person that committed a violent crime....
Fitting a stereotype is not justification to chase and kill someone... Especially when you have no authority to do so.
The reality is that Trayvon's past is the only guide we have today to what he did that night. Psychologists know that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, so if he's beaten people up before, it's more likely that he tried to that night. Selling drugs and the like aren't directly relevant, but indicate participation in gang culture, which suggests more violent history. Of course, this evidence is all circumstantial, but it's the only evidence we have.
All this info is not relevant.
The victim tried to put distance between himself and his killer. A "thug" mentality would not apply as the victim did not aggressively approach the killer. It was the other way around. When the victim felt threaten enough he attempted to defend himself but was no match for a gun. When the killer was bested by the victim, the killer shot the victim, the entire situation was perpetrated by the killer who instigated the encounter.
Stand your ground does not apply as the killer was invading the victims space and civil liberties. The victim acted in self defense.
Bottom line, the killer hunted this teenager. Persued him after advised not to do so. Approached the teenager felt threatened and defended himself. Zimmerman (killer) got beat up and shot the victim.
The fact he is attempting to go this route is suspect in itself.
I disagree, C. Smith. Trayvon was pursued by a stranger who missed two opportunities to identify himself as a neighborhood watch volunteer. Trayvon was innocently walking home from the store....but.......
George pursued Trayvon from Frank Taaffe's house on to the clubhouse where security camera's picked up George looking for Trayvon with his flashlight then returned to his vehicle and drove on TTL past the mailboxes, made a U-turn and watched Trayon.
Trayvon told Deedee that a creepy guy was following him. The fact that Trayvon called George creepy reveals the concern that Trayvon had of this suspicious pursuer.
George still did not stop following Trayvon.
When Trayvon ran away up on to a sidewalk inaccessible to vehicles in order to create distance between himself and George in his car......George IMMEDIATELY exited his silver Ridgeline right after telling the dispatcher, "He's running."
Let's now consider the attitude George had toward Trayvon.
What George said to the dispatcher at that moment says it all---
This is the mindset that was driving George as he commenced his chase of Trayvon.
The dispatcher, hearing George running, asked George....."Are you following him?'
George replied, "Yes".
Any normal person including Trayvon would be worried and on high alert in such a situation AND feel threatened by being pursued by an unknown stranger.
Thus, when the two did meet up, Trayvon was already feeling defensive toward this creepy George.
Deedee has stated that she heard Trayvon ask George, "Why are you following me?"
This would have been an ideal time for George to have simply identified himself as a member of Neighborhood Watch.
Did George identify himself as such. The answer is NO.
This leads me to conclude that Trayvon's punch to George's nose was an act of self defense against a creepy and potentially dangerous stranger.......especially when Trayvon at that moment saw George reaching for something in the area (below) of George's waistband.
I truly think that George reaching for his cellphone in his pant pocket alarmed Trayvon.........especially since George did not identify himself......but merely answered Trayvon's question with, "What are you doing here?"
Mire, thats not the issue here. Zimmerman is requesting the records to portray Martin as thug, which they are hoping to support the story that Martin attacked Zimmerman and that he killed in self defense. If they can produce records and transcripts if Martin acting in that manner, or having a history of that - it supports his defense.
Martin's lawyers on the otherhand dont want to give any additional ammo to the defense - hence their resistance to givng the records.
I dont know anything about Martin - so i cant say that the school record and social media records will help paint that thug picture - but if i were Zimmerman - i would be doing the exact same thing. The request for records have nothing to do with "Martin was killed because he was a thug" the request for the records has EVERYTHING to do with "Here is proof that supports Zimmerman's claim that he was attacked by Martin, and it seems within Martin's character, that he WOULD attack Zimmerman, thereby supporting the claim that it was self defense when Martin was killed."
People are either being willfully ignorant as to why these records would be important to Zimmerman's case, or they simply have already judged Zimmerman guilty and simply dont care about a trial. We have a justice system for a reason - we cant pick and choose when it is allowed to do its thing, or when we decide it isnt necessary. Yes, Martin is dead - but Zimmerman still has to have a trial to prove his guilt or innocence in the eyes of the judge and jury - Those records are vital to his attempt to clear his name - wether it is true or not is between Zimmerman and his God, but if he can convince the judge and jury of his self defense claim, he will need those records.
Below is a quote from click> http://the-truth-about-george-zimmermans-kel-tec-pf-9/ ----
Could this have anything to do with George not being able to find his cellphone..........maybe, he was NOT EVER looking for his cellphone in the wrong pocket but WAS IN FACT trying to get his gun out, but it was snagging up in his clothing.
Could this be why Trayvon hit George in the face? Did Trayvon see George's gun at this point?
The key quote of George's is
The only reason for him to look DOWN was either to untangle his gun from his clothing OR to see to it that it
was drawn out smoothly from the holster in his waistband.
.
And why would George try to call 911 IF Trayvon had actually just said,
Anyone would know it is too late to call 911 in the middle of a confrontation.
It is too late to update the dispatcher on his exact location so George could have them there in 2 seconds.
I am not happy with the judge's ruling on this issue. I can understand the school records, but the social media site for not just Martin, but his girlfriend? For one thing, teenagers lie all over Facebook. Second, there is no way to verify much of what is on there, such as the "bus driver" story. You can't hold up Facebook or Twitter posts that have no independent verification and say they are truth of anything.
Two things: 1) It sounds horrible because it is...it's equivalent to bringing up the sexual history of a rape victim in an attempt to "blame the victim", and 2) the records will show nothing about the mentality of Zimmerman that night or have any bearing on Zimmerman's choice of actions.
It has already been determined that Martin had miniscule, trace amounts of THC (marijuana in his system) indicating that he had used or been exposed to the drug several days or weeks prior to his death that night, which also indicates that he was not under the influence of any drug at the time he encountered Zimmerman. In other words, any record of past drug use or even involvement by Martin is irrelevant.
We already know he was an A/B student who wanted to become an aeronautical engineer and was consider gentle by his family and school peers. This has already been investigated and published. Selling drugs and the like aren't directly relevant, but indicate participation in gang culture, which suggests more violent history. Of course, this evidence is all circumstantial, but it's the only evidence we have. Selling or using drugs has zero basis for gang involvement. I know many people, Black and White who sold or used marijuana and had no involvement with gangs whatsoever.
It's not just circumstantial evidence, it's also purely speculative and reaching. The only hopeful thing about this attempt to gather evidence to besmirch Trayvon Martin's character is that the judge has reserved the right to review any evidence that may be produced prior to allowing it to be used in court.
And, of course, all pot-smoking thug gang-bangers should be shot, and, of course, Zimmerman could see and know all that just by looking at Martin? You make no logical sense. You say "Those records are vital to his attempt to clear his name"...Zimmerman ALREADY ADMITTED HE SHOT THE KID! He can't "clear his name" by defaming the victim's school records, something he would have had no idea about on that evening. Your argument makes no sense and ignores facts already in evidence, namely, Zimmerman fatally shot an unarmed 17 year old kid with no criminal record. EVEN IF Martin had been expelled from school, (he had not been), he didn't deserve to be shot. End of story.
The kid had a bag of candy and was unarmed. George pursued him and the police told him not to. Trayvon is now dead and George is trying everything he can to get off the hook. He's going down in flames and deserves every bit of what he will get. You are obviously a racist joke of a human being.
We need to give the jury as much information as we can, so they may do their job.
We want them to have a clear picture of both participants backgrounds. I am sure that all information relating to each's backgrounds will be rebuttaled so that in the end a clearer picture will be made.
Sorry but those who want to scream out their "facts" without evidence won't be catered to in this court of law.
So what was the point in collapsing IXLR8's post??? TOO many liberals who have already made up their minds and think that they are judge, jury and executioner in this case didn't like what was said???
I think it's great that GZ got a new judge hearing this case and one that's NOT afraid to do what's right!!!!!
"... show the thug mentality and a pot smoking pre-gang banger."
Really? And every rape victim 'asked for it'. Way to go. Let's persecute and blame the victim. You've already got him tried and convicted even though forensic evidence heretofore shows nothing to support the defense's assertion that Zimmerman was attacked. Repeat. The evidence shows NOTHING to support the defense's assertions.
The most damning assertion: Zimmerman claimed Martin was on top of him, beating him, when he fired the fatal shot. That would have meant that Martin was shot at point blank range. Ballistics reports indicated otherwise.
So now Zimmerman's attorney's want to show that Martin was a lackluster student with violent tendencies. The judge rules that they can have access to the information but must keep anything they discover private. Really? And what's the point of that? Well, you know, if there is anything negative in the records there will be 'leaks'. Purely 'accidental' and not from Zimmerman's team. OH! Of course not! But that's okay. He's was just some stupid black kid out looking for trouble. He deserved it. Right?
And people who judge unarmed teenagers as thugs based on the color of their skin are abhorable.
Crazy Culheath at it again.
You know why its important to bring up a women's past when she accuses someone of rape? What if she has done it numerous times before? That would be a pretty good clue that she is lying. So what if Trayvon has a history of starting fights, or talks about how he wants to kick the @!$%# out of Latinos. He probably didnt, but the defense lawyers do need it. I agree with you that selling weed does not make you bad, but Trayvon may have done stuff that would suggest that Zimmerman really did fear for his life.
And thewordsmith,
You're almost as bad as culheath. Its not blaming the victim. We dont know if Trayvon was the perp or victim yet. Thats the whole point of the background check. And we check sexual history to see if that woman has lied about rape before. Enough with the "oh you're blaming the victim" bs. It accomplishes nothing besides showing you dont understand our courty system.
LMAO wow, some of you really have reached to fantasy land to defend a guy who assaulted a cop, and then progressed to murdering an unarmed kid...have you people no shame? Wait, dont answer..i have it from your comments. Pathetic! So nice of you to judge the kid though without knowing him. Real mature morons....PS i call a guy who thinks hes tough stuff walking around with a gun, starting fights with undercover cops a thug..not a 17 year old kid who isnt armed, and is walking home. And if someone is following me, you can bet id rush him if i thought he was a danger to me. I think you idiots forget that. Zimmerman STALKED him! But you people have no common sense, just your ignorant conceptions about a kid you dont even know. Im sure George is a good guy deep down..but he broke the law, took a life, and now needs to pay for it...
Obama Loses and Zimmerman walks -- RR 2012 !!
This is just about the defense trying to put the victim on trial. Zimmerman has no defense for his actions so he is trying to dirty up he victim as much as possible to try and justify what he did. The fact is that none of the information in those school files was known to Zimmerman prior to this event so there is no way that any of it can justify what Zimmerman did. Zimmerman has changed his story so many times about what actually happened that it is almost comical. Every time someone points out evidence that contradicts something in Zimmerman's story his story changes to try and cover the inconsistency like he is just now remembering something else that happened or that it happened differently than what he said originally because he was confused when he gave the earlier statement. What it really comes down to is Zimmerman was trying to play vigilante hero and screwed up, shooting an innocent kid. There had been a couple of burglaries in the neighborhood and Zimmerman thought he ad the burglar. He pursued Martin and shot him, thinking he had got the burglar when he had really just shot an innocent kid on the way home from the store. Even Zimmerman's story about shooting Martin during a struggle does not make sense with the physical evidence. The gun residue evidence on Martin's clothing indicates that the shot was fired from an intermediate distance. This is not consistent with a shot fired during a struggle. If they had been struggling with each other when the shot went off the evidence would show close range or contact with the gun on Martin's clothes at the time of the shot and that is not what it shows. There is also the fact that Zimmerman claims that Martin sucker punched him and them immediately jumped on top and started pummeling him. The problem is that the key chain that Zimmerman apparently dropped was 30-50 feet from where Martin was shot. This is not consistent with him dropping the key chain when he was punched and fell backward as Zimmerman originally claimed with the action all taking place at that same location. When this was pointed out Zimmerman then tried to claim that he stumbled forward the 30-50 feet after Martin punched him. I do no know about you, but if someone sucker punched me in the face I am far more likely to fall back, as Zimmerman said in his original story than continue to move forward, towards and through where the attacker is standing for 30-50 feet. There is nothing about Zimmerman's story that adds up with the evidence. Zimmerman shot an innocent kid because he was trying to be a hero and catch the neighborhood burglar. He screwed up and is now just trying to cover up and justify his actions.
In my opinion the Judge has erred in this ruling, and has lost sight of the need to focus on the relevant facts in this case; which are the events of the night of the shooting.
Mr. Zimmerman's prior life history, and Mr. Martin's prior life history are just not relevant. Focus on the events of the night of the shooting. It does not matter if Mr. Zimmerman loves his mother and his dog (gosh, I did too). It does not matter if Mr. Martin disliked and acted out at school (gosh, I did too). None of that has anything to do with the events of that night.
Everyone is, of course, entitled to a vigorous defense. But the Court should deny and dismiss these extraneous legal maneuvers by BOTH legal teams and insist that the Prosecution and Defense Attorneys focus upon the incident in question, and present the facts to a jury.
What happened? Who is responsible for what happened? Was a crime committed? And if a crime was committed should there be penalty and recompense imposed?
The rest is just extraneous "noise" and is irrelevant distraction from the events of that night, and the tragic end results: One precious life lost, and another precious life destroyed.
PS. Some of you who are repeatedly collapsing the comments of others -- not because they are offensive, or abusive, or profane, but merely because the writer holds an opinion which is different from yours -- should do some soul searching.
Collapsing another person's comment says nothing about THAT person's words, but it says everything about YOUR personal character and YOUR need to silence others with whom you disagree. And THAT ... is downright un-American.
Everyone should have the right to defend themselves. This includes Zimmerman AND Martin. These cases will always turn into a murky mess regardless of who ends up dead. There is just no getting around that. Every shred of evidence from all parties personal lives will need to be examined to determine what is relevant.
The only good thing that can come out of this is for it to serve as an example to everyone watching. If you can find a way to disengage from a dangerous situation, swallow your pride and get out of there. Even if you win the fight, you're life will become a living hell.
Changing the law will not help much. The only thing I can think of that might is educating people, especially those that carry, as to what a mess your are in for when you use that weapon, even if you are justified. It should always be the very last resort.
Let's clear up some misconceptions here:
He was not expelled from school, he was suspended for an empty bag in his backpack which MAY have contained marijuana, but was never conclusively proven. And as he had never been charged, arrested or convicted of any crime, it cannot be legally proven that he 'sold drugs'.
They have Zimmerman's past RAP sheet because it is a matter of public record. and the judge just gave them permission to look at his school records and social media posts. Martin's family's lawyers are now going to ask for Zimmerman's medical records, which the Judge said would be granted after looking through to make sure nothing that was strictly confidential could be revealed. so there are wins for both sides of this case--and a win for both sides equals a more fair trial for Zimmerman.
The information contained in his post was erroneous and presented in away that was not respectful of the dead.
I understand the school records and the social media records. The girlfriend might be a bit of a reach, but it might show just how deeply she was involved with Martin and whether she would likely lie for him.
I will respectfully disagree with you on this. Martin is dead, that clearly makes him a victim. Zimmerman admits to shooting him, and legally owns the weapon with which the shooting was committed, that makes him the perpetrator of the shooting. what remains to be seen now is whether he is exculpated from a crime having happened by mitigating circumstances (i.e. who attacked first). The main point to be determined is if there was one point in the entire conflict at which the tragedy could have been averted, and with whom lay the responsibility for making that crucial move and did not.
Martin was a thug, and got what he deserved.
Martin would be alive today if he didnt attack Zimmerman.
Culheath
You have no idea what kind of student he was, the records have not been released.
Wordsmith
Why dont you go read the actual police reports and witness statements before you comment.
Most of the people defending Martin havent even read the police reports or witness statements. There is absolutely NO evidence that Zimmerman chased him, but several witness statements that have Martin on top of ZImmerman punching him, Zimmerman said Martin went for his gun, and that will get you killed every time. Zimmerman is innocent until the State proves him guilty.
What Omara is trying to show is that Martin was not the innocent little boy that he is portrayed to be, and that had a tendency to swing first and talk later, and thats what got him killed. One of the suspensions was for being in an "unauthorized" area of the school, wanna bet that it was the girls locker room where he was popping lockers with his screwdriver and stealing jewelry?
I would agree that Trayvon's pot smoking and typical adolescent school problems are not relevant. What might be relevant is correspondence that illustrates that he was prone to display of aggression, which if found, might support Zimmerman's allegation that he was attacked. For example, let's say he sent an email to a school buddy in which he wrote, "If I ever see you cross my path again, Ill punch your lights out." However, his pot smoking and disciplinary issues at school are not relevant. If the defense brings this up it will look like the are Putting Trayvon on trail which will backfire. They are better off sticking to raising the issue that he had a background of aggressive interactions.
The media has already tried to portay Trayvon as a happy go lucky kid who rescued baby kittens and sang in the choir... (okay, a slight exaggeration)... However, I've heard many conflicting stories that portray a much different personality. Examining someone's Facebook postings and texts would give an expert a very good insight into the personality and tendencies of an individual. A key question is whether or not Trayvon was likely to have attacked Zimmerman or not. The requested records could help objectively answer that question.
I agree with all of your post but this, and the point of contention could simply be a difference of opinion. I don't consider someone who dies during a criminal act a victim- therefore IF Zimmerman was attacked and defended himself as he states, then I wouldn't consider Trayvon a victim. Not everyone would agree with me though.
If Trayvon has a history of violence, then it is relevant to the case and what happened that night.
The Martin family is trying to find out if Zimmerman was on drugs- not whether Trayvon was.
Not even close, but nice try. Until irrefutable proof comes out that Zimmerman wasn't acting in self defense, it isn't known whether Trayvon is a victim or not. Your analogy would be similar- if the rape victim you were referring to were actually a prostitute who had a history of taking money from her Johns then crying rape.
They aren't requesting the records to show anything about Zimmerman. They are requesting the records to show Trayvon's possible propensity for violence.
The judge has reserved the right to review Zimmerman's medical record to withhold any HIPAA protected information that is irrelevant to the case. There is nothing mentioned about the school records and social networking information aside from the fact that the defense must keep the information private.
Please try to keep up with the story, especially the parts you reply to. There are so many inconsistencies between what the story states and what you replied to, I can easily understand why your post was collapsed.
True, and anyone with a modicum of intelligence can see this. Unfortunately, it seems those who advocate Martin's innocence choose to ignore theirs- assuming they have any.
Wow, folks, ... the indiscriminate collapsing of people's comments here, on the discussion threads for this news story, is really disturbing. These are the actions one would expect of spoiled and petulant adolescents; not of grownups.
Are some of you really so fearful of other people's expression of their own opinions that you feel it is a necessary and worthwhile use of your time to attempt to"silence" those with whom you disagree?
Do you even have a clue what sort of person that behavior makes you?
Have you thought about what your actions say about your own character?
How truly cowardly and pathetic of you ....
And how totally pointless a pursuit!
Food for thought: Let civil discourse and the merit of your own ideas, opinions and expression make your point for those with whom you disagree. You certainly only reinforce the value of their words when you surrender to them by resorting to mouse clicks to silence them.
@Robert in Oregon--
Well said and 100% true:
I've opened every collapsed post, up to this point, and each time wondered WHY it was collapsed. I don't think highly of the folks that did the collapsing, and now wonder what they're trying to hide by gaming the system. My worry is that they lack critical thinking skills themselves and think even LESS of the rest of us.
Thank you dear. I noted a similar sentiment yesterday (post #1.23 above) .... which was promptly collapsed.
"OH, THE IRONY!" ( grin ;-)
Call me stupid but how does one collapse the comments. Not a big deal anyway cause I open them.
Secondly what the hell does Trayvon's school history and social media history have to do with anything. And Zimmerman's lawyer is right - it not only looks like the defense is trying to victimize the victim that is exactly what he is doing. Had Zimmerman not entered into this piccture at all that night - not tried to be a wannabe cop Trayvon would be alive today. It was Zimmerman that began this whole thing. He said there had been a lot of breakins in the community lately but was Trayvon giving any evidence of breaking into anyone's house. No he was walking home from the store talking to his girlfriend minding his own business until Zimmerman decided to be a hero. So if there is any record of anything on Trayvon's files then we are to *assume* he was a bad dude and it was his fault. He is dead - he cant even tell his story and Zimmerman has told 5 different versions of his story - how is this fair. The one good thing that has come out of this though is that before the prosecution could not bring the fact that Zimmerman was on medications that could vastly affect his mood and make him prone to violence but now that the Defense has requested this on Trayvon they can bring this info into court. That is going to harm Zimmerman big time. For instance on these meds why was Zimmerman allowed to carry a concealed weapon. The meds he is taking incidcate that he is mentally ill and that is probably why he wanted to be a hero that night by nabbing an unarmed 17 year old boy. Wow what a catch - approach someone who wasnt doing anything and start something. Bully mentality for sure. He could have identified himself, he could have retreated but better yet he never needed to get out of his car that night and if that had been the case Trayvon would be alive today. So all you bleeding hearts that feel for Zimmerman and want to trash Trayvon because he was a 17 year old teen and likely deserved what he got are sicker than Zimmerman. I cannot believe Zimmerman is out of jail. Here in Canada he would still be in jail awaiting his trial because a charge of second degree murder here doesnt allow bond. There is no question about the fact that Zimmerman killed someone that night. He said he did. That isnt even in question. So he should not be walking free being that he and his wife have lied to the courts and tried to scam the money people sent him for his defense. Why hasnt some bigwig lawyer volunteered to represent Trayvon pro bono like the one has done for zimmerman. I have no tears for Zimmerman and I do believe he will walk - should he - in my opinion no dam way. He cut a young man's life short before he had any time at all to grow up, graduate and become an upstanding citizen that he could have been. I have raised 3 teens that they cause me to lose many a nights sleep in their teens but they have all grown up to be great people who are contributating to society. But you might not have thought that of them when they were 17. So if Zimmerman gets off based on this request by his lawyer all I can say is *shame on the courts, shame on the jury and shame on all you believers of Zimmerman.*
Trayvon's school records have nothing to do with this case. Another distraction by a scumbag defense lawyer. Can I volunteer for the jury?
Do you also consider Zimmerman's prior police and medical records irrelevant to this case?
I didn't hear any outrage when those were released.
Zimmerman was to instigator, not Trayvon. Zimmerman did not follow the directions of the 911 operator telling him NOT to pursue, but to wait for police. That is a fact on record. Trigger happy Zimmerman failed to comply. He wanted to be a hero. For killing someone, he should man up and pay for his indiscretion. Had he done what the 911 person told him, Trayvon would be alive and Zimmerman would not be in the mess he created!
BW,
How do you know Zimmerman didn't follow the police dispatcher's instructions?
I'm curious because on the recording, it sounds like he stops running right after being told to (his heavy breathing and the rustling noises stop).
When did the dispatcher ever give him instructions to stop?
If the records show that Martin had a history of random fighting at school, etc., then what they say will be relevant. Zimmerman's contention is that Martin initiated the verbal and physical confrontations. Would that be entirely out of character for Martin? Or was he a passive peacemaker?
I never met either of them, personally, so I have no clue what his school records will show, but I can certainly see why the defense would want to know as much about Martin's behavioral history as possible.
If the records show he was a model citizen, that's something his parents should be proud to show.
If they show that he had behavioral problems, I will understand his parents' reaction if they want to claim, "That wasn't the REAL Trayvon - every kid has trouble now and then!", because that is typical for parents. They naturally want to protect his reputation because they loved him. But that will not necessarily mean that their perspective is completely accurate.
It's not a matter of putting Martin on *trial*, but it is critical to know whether he was even capable of the sort of thing Zimmerman claims he did, so any school behavior records that exist - as well as statements Martin made in 'public' on social networking sites - can give a window into the likelihood that he might - or might not - jump somebody and pummel them.
I've read suggestions that Martin was wanting to join a gang, and that beating up a certain number of people was part of what would be needed to prove that he was tough enough to join. Is that true? I have absolutely no idea. But if it *is* true and there could be evidence in social media archives that show this, Zimmerman's people deserve to have access to it.
Well, the dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that." (Around the 2:15 mark in the call if I remember correctly) Most people are construing it as a command even though it technically isn't but that's all besides the point.
Even if you consider it a command, there is no PROOF that Zimmerman disregarded it, only people's assumptions.
"we don't need you to do that"
The perfect example of a non-commital phrase. i.e. "We're not going to tell you to keep pursuing him because that might end up badly but we're not going to tell you to stop because keeping him in sight might make the officer's job easier...so we aren't going to commit either way and let the cards fall where they may while covering our own butts." If they say "follow him" and something bad happens, dispatcher is in trouble. If they say "don't follow him" and the suspect kills someone, dispatcher comes under fire. Give a non-commital answer and all the liability falls on the caller.
Im trying to figure out how all you fools out there think you have insight and insider info on this case that I dont think anybody has. Like, "he was a potsmoking pre-gang banger, he was expelled from school", or "I hear he wanted to join a gang and had to prove he was tough enough". Where did all you nitwits go to law school? This is a court case where a young man was shot and killed. The one true fact is that zimmie was told by police to not pursue this kid, and he want ahead and pursued the kid. Another true fact is that trayvon was not in possession of a gun that night and zimmie was; and that gun was the weapon that killed trayvon. Id say that the medical and mental condition of the guy who instigated this whole series of events is very definitely information that should be examined. I dont see the relevance of the kids school records, cause whether he flunked math or not, the facts do not change. whether he was expelled or not, he was shot and killed dead. Maybe you constitutional scholars on here might want to get a life and let the case proceed without your valueless input.
r murphy,
You and many others keep making the claim that Zimmerman disregarded the dispatcher's order. (I'll ignore the fact that it technically wasn't an order)
What is your basis for that belief? Is there any physical proof that Zimmerman continued to chase Trayvon? Did witnesses see Zimmerman running Trayvon down?
Please, enlighten me.
In the link click>/the-truth-about-george-zimmermans-kel-tec-pf-9/----is this bit of information--
Could George perhaps not have been looking down because he could not find his cellphone in his pant pocket.......but had to look down to untangle his gun from his clothing? Might he, in fact, have been trying to grab his gun from his holster which was in his waistband at his hip?
Just why did George need to look down at his pocket for his cellphone?? A person can discover if a cellphone is in his pocket without having to look down! You can feel by touch if your cellphone is in a pocket or not.
You all,
You've been spamming that same comment (word for word) over and over in every Zimmerman/Trayvon article.
If you have nothing new to add, please stop posting.
Sorry, Double Post. (Anyone else getting these "Bubblegum" errors?)
"we don't need you to do that"
And Zimmerman's response? "OK".
It is in the transcript.
ScubaSteve wrote--
I think the keychain with the flashlight attached tells us that George continued after Trayvon to the very end--
Let's take a look at that keychain with the flashlight attached.
In my opinion, its location at the crime scene ......on the T side of that well known tree.......is all that is needed to defeat George's claim to SYG or George's claim to self defense.
All the other evidence....... all of George's statements both in audio and video interviews........all of the other evidence is simply icing on the cake for the prosecution.
The keychain clinches the case!
Why?
Because the keychain marks the location where George should have stayed. The fact that the keychain's light was still on is an extra gift to the prosecution. It was in use!
Trayvon's body was found a good 30+ feet south of that keychain. Trayvon was trying to escape toward home.
What did George do? George pursued Trayvon. No valid self defense there.
George should have gone in the opposite direction. Had everything gone north toward the T from the keychain, George might today have some chance at a self defense claim because north would have shown that George was attempting to retreat.
But....no. George was on the offense. He headed SOUTH of the keychain after Trayvon as Trayvon attempted to get away toward home. He just would not let go of Trayvon........he would not let Trayvon go home.
The keychain with its flashlight is solid, physical evidence.
The keychain ALONE defeats George's self defense claim.
30 feet away? That's like 7-10 steps for a normal sized person (or the distance they might travel during a scuffle).
Beyond the fact that the recording shows Trayvon running for at least 30 seconds.
Sally wrote--
Good post, you all have thoughtful comments. There is also the fact that Zimmerman was told not to pursue and real cops were on the way but he failed to comply. Had he stayed put like he was told, this child would still be alive.
Then I would subpeona Zimmy's Medical records, His therapists and \
and conversations he has with his pastor
There is no evidence that he did pursue. If you listen to the call, he appears to comply when told. Even if you follow the theory that he did pursue, that doesn't justify the kid jumping him. We're forgetting the fact here that there is no evidence that Zimmerman initiated the physical contact here, which makes it possible that regardless of the nature of the confrontation Trayvon initiated the violence and was simply a victim of jumping a guy with a gun. That's where the school records come in, they will validate or invalidate the likelyhood that Trayvon was the type of kid who would respond violently to being followed by a stranger. If not, then it would obviously look bad for Zimmerman. However, if he has a history of violence with little or no provocation, that would stand to benefit Zimmerman's case since nobody saw the entire fight. Just from the looks of it, Zimmerman is a much larger guy than Trayvon and it appears highly unlikely that a kid Trayvon's size would be able to take him to the ground unless he was the aggressor and especially unlikely that if Zimmerman took him down that Trayvon would ever end up on top. So if, in fact, the witnesses saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman at some point during the fight it is much more likely that Trayvon was the aggressor and caught Zimmerman off guard. We'll have to wait until sworn testimony is given by the witnesses and these records are reviewed before jumping to any real conclusions at this point. All we know for sure, so far, is that a young man died in what were circumstances which both he and the man who shot him would have avoided if they knew where it would lead.
Scuba-yes, getting the bubblegum errors too. You get them if they don't like what you have to say!!!
Thoughtful comments-You are not an attorney is this case, for either side, You are NOT the judge, You are not a juror, NOT an investigator, and sure as hell NOT a witness to what happened that night. Maybe you should try to MYOB until and unless you become one of the above. You have all assumptions and no real facts!!!! You also don't really have the right to attempt to influence the potential jurors in this or any case.
BUT you cetainly seem to wish that you could!!!!
Yeah, scubasteve, we understand that you ignore fact and evidence because it doesn't reinforce your desire in this case. You would have been more accurate in choosing a screen name such as "ostrich steve".3 u
Any reasonable person over the age of would interpret that statement to give the message that what ever the person was doing was to be stopped. That is how we know that the jurors, reasonable people with abilities, will know exactly what the dispatcher was communicating.
Even George and his bumbling defense attorney do not deny that the dispatcher was telling George to stop following Trayvon Martin. The only people hanging onto that feeble excuse is the half witted Zimmie Zealots. It is not an issue that will ever be presented in court. As you should have seen in the live feed today, this judge does not tolerate a bunch of silly game playing in her court room. She sat O'Mara back on his a$$ more than once.
Personally, I will be LMAO off when there is nothing at all in Trayvon Martin's school records to show a history of violence and aggressive behavior. Remember, they have to show a history of said behavior, repeatedly over time, for it to do them any good. A fight on the playground in the 2nd grade won't help them at all. The prosecution has plenty of evidence already of George's history of aggressive and violent behavior, repeatedly and over time. That behavioral pattern and the associated personality traits have already been proven.
DOCJT,
I noticed your post didn't answer my question and instead focused on a point I already conceded (that the dispatcher's words could be considered an order).
What is your proof that Zimmerman disregarded that order?
.
YOU ALL
Gon have a look at the map. and the direction they were both heading is where George lived. George stated he lost Trayvon as he did not follow him... Trayvon then appeared shortly afterwards and attacked George.
After all your gibberish, there is nothing to prove anything otherwise. And you keep forgetting the most important thing of all, walking up to someone and asking a question is NOT the definition of assault or intimidation. If a man walked up to someone half his size to ask the time, would it be OK for the younger man to attack him cause he didn't want to be bothered to answer his question, so far this seems to be the case with Tray & Zim.
@JoeyJoeJoJunior
"we don't need you to do that" The perfect example of a non-commital phrase ..."
Joey, I see the word "don't" in that phrase.
"Don't" means "do not."
"Don't" was first recorded in the written English language in the 1670's. It meant do not" then, and it has meant "do not" for the subsequent (+/-) 340 years.
"Non-commital"? Really? "Don't" is "non-commital" to you?
---------------
(from the 911 dispatcher transcript)
Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?
Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.
Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?
Zimmerman: The back entrance...@!$%#ing [unintelligible]
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.
---------------
In Mr. Zimmerman's own words to the 911 dispatcher, Mr. Martin was running. He was running "down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood." Not running toward Mr. Zimmerman's location at the time he was speaking to the 911 dispatcher who had informed Mr. Zimmerman that law enforcement had been dispatched and was enroute.
Mr. Zimmerman did not shoot and kill Mr. Martin at the location from which he spoke to the 911 dispatcher.
Mr. Zimmerman did not shoot and kill Mr. Martin at the location where the 911 dispatcher asked Mr. Zimmerman if he was following Mr. Martin and then told Mr. Martin "...we don't need you to do that."
Mr. Zimmerman did not, however, wait for law enforcement to arrive. Mr. Zimmerman made a different decision.
Mr. Zimmerman continued to follow Mr. Martin who was running in another direction. Mr. Zimmerman had decided he was "up to something" (but as we know was actually returning from the market, in the rain and after dark, protected only by a sweatshirt from the rain, trying to find an unfamiliar residence where his father was awaiting his return, in a neighborhood in which all of the units look alike).
Mr. Martin was running in another direction, away from Mr. Zimmerman who acknowledged that he was pursuing. Pursuing Mr. Martin with a loaded gun. And then shot and killed Mr. Martin with that loaded gun, after pursuing him after the 911 dispatcher said "... we don't need you to do that."
Roger, you left out a few things from your transcript.
Right after the dispatcher says, "we don't need you to do that." Zimmerman replies, "OK." and then the heavy breathing and rustling noises stop. I'm not a trained audiologist but it certainly sounds like Zimmerman stops running after being told to.
About a minute later, Zimmerman is reluctant to give his home address because he "doesn't know where this guy is."
So there's evidence that Zimmerman stopped running and evidence that Zimmerman had lost sight of Trayvon. If Zimmerman had kept following Trayvon as you claim, what is your explanation?
The judge should see all of the records from both sides, in private chambers, and decided what is relevant to the mindset of both parties involved.
Complete Transcript, Serino Interview, 2/29/2012, Tape 3
This is the transcript of the 3rd tape of Investigators Serino and Singleton interviewing Zimmerman. This tape recorded them playing back the non-emergency call and questioning him about his location, moves and motives. This is the audio: audio_interview_0229_3
I disagree, C. Smith. Trayvon was pursued by a stranger who missed two opportunities to identify himself as a neighborhood watch volunteer. Trayvon was innocently walking home from the store....but.......
George pursued Trayvon from Frank Taaffe's house on to the clubhouse where security camera's picked up George looking for Trayvon with his flashlight then returned to his vehicle and drove on TTL past the mailboxes, made a U-turn and watched Trayon.
Trayvon told Deedee that a creepy guy was following him. The fact that Trayvon called George creepy reveals the concern that Trayvon had of this suspicious pursuer.
George still did not stop following Trayvon.
When Trayvon ran away up on to a sidewalk inaccessible to vehicles in order to create distance between himself and George in his car......George IMMEDIATELY exited his silver Ridgeline right after telling the dispatcher, "He's running."
Let's now consider the attitude George had toward Trayvon.
What George said to the dispatcher at that moment says it all---
This is the mindset that was driving George as he commenced his chase of Trayvon.
The dispatcher, hearing George running, asked George....."Are you following him?'
George replied, "Yes".
Any normal person including Trayvon would be worried and on high alert in such a situation AND feel threatened by being pursued by an unknown stranger.
Thus, when the two did meet up, Trayvon was already feeling defensive toward this creepy George.
Deedee has stated that she heard Trayvon ask George, "Why are you following me?"
This would have been an ideal time for George to have simply identified himself as a member of Neighborhood Watch.
Did George identify himself as such. The answer is NO.
This leads me to conclude that Trayvon's punch to George's nose was an act of self defense against a creepy and potentially dangerous stranger.......especially when Trayvon at that moment saw George reaching for something in the area (below) of George's waistband.
I truly think that George reaching for his cellphone in his pant pocket alarmed Trayvon.........especially since George did not identify himself......but merely answered Trayvon's question with, "What are you doing here?"
..
..Sorry--the system said I was unsuccessful in posting but it appeared multiple times as I attempted to repost.
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How can anyone claim Trayvon was innocently walking home? He could just as easily been looking for an opportunity to commit a crime. We don't know....
I love it!!!! The parents are a little on edge now that the court is going to find out their sweet son Trayvon is not so sweet. Of course they do not want his records released. The truth will come out what a thug he really was. Not the angel they they keep making Trayvon out to be.
"We think it’s a terrible precedent to set," of course you don't, you don't want the truth to come out. If there is nothing to hide what is the big deal.
Or are you afraid your son was shady and the girl told the truth on FB which she changed and deleted after pressure from you.
All just a guess. I just want to see the full truth come out and not have it tried in the media
Bunkie they already know he's not sweet that's why they are upset. Might interfere with the civil suit if Zimmerman is found not guilty.
I'm sure the records will show what an ANGLE little trayvon was in school!! LOL
Zimmerman is a nut and I hope he gets the same treatment and sentencing that the other "stand your ground" idiot got in TEXAS....If you notice, they're both 2 unattractive, pudgy, little "men" who went looking for trouble so that they can come off as the hero....Texas was smart and saw that loser for what he really was....We know they don't grow them that way in Florida....Sooooo.....
Ray in Jax... "we just don't know"... exactly. So you shoot them?
usa1967... would that be right, acute, or obtuse?
If Trayvon was in school at home studying like a high school student should be, he would still be alive. His parents need to be held accountable for him being kicked out of school on drugs and running around in a different community after curfew. This is an example of making bad decisions in your life. Another example is teen drivers texting and being killed in an automobile accident.
He went to the store, and decided on the way home he would commit a crime. Stereotypical right, Ray?
That is the point Ray, we dont know for sure that Trayvon was just walking home, but we also dont know that he was not plotting to buy a factory and fire all the employees either. BTW, who among the people who are awake do not believe that unless Trayvon was committing a crime then we have to say he was innocent? What was the crime he was committing again?
Independent:
If Trayvon was in school at home studying like a high school student should be, he would still be alive. His parents need to be held accountable for him being kicked out of school on drugs and running around in a different community after curfew.
Running around after curfew? He went to the store at 7:00 pm. Wow. You sure are rigid. And what's so wrong about going to the store to pick up a pack of Skittles and a bottle of iced tea? If Zimmerman listened to the 911 operator and waited in his car for the police to arrive, Trayvon would still be alive today. What did he hope to accomplish by approaching Trayvon? He couldn't arrest him for anything since he's not a cop. And he couldn't detain him as I don't believe he had handcuffs with him.
Independent....really? If someone stays out after curfew, they are fair game? What curfew is at 7pm? The problem is that they are now going to put the victim on trial as opposed to the defendant. What Trayvon did elsewhere in his life is not relevant. If you read the transcript, he was not really doing anything but looking around as he walked to 7-11. Yes teenage boys do walk slow as if it is cool, even in the rain, but that is no reason to kill them.
Independent:: How many teenage boys do just what they want when they want. As for running around in a different community, do you ever go somewhere to visit-- somewhere other than where you live? You better watch it-- you might be in a different community. He wasn't "running around in a different community". If you remember, his father-- who is divorced from his mother-- was visiting a friend, they were watching the game, and Trayvon was invited to come along. What if a teenage boy wants to go to the store for Skittles and a can of iced tea. Is there a law against that? If there is, you better watch your step and stay home after dark!
Or is it against the law in Florida for a teenage boy and his father to be invited to someone's home to watch a basketball game? Or is it against the law for the teenage boy to go to the store and walk back to the home where he and his father were visiting?
Are you a bigot? Inferring that it is against the law for a teenage black boy to be walking back from the store after buying Skittles and iced tea. Sure as hades sounds like it.
Kat:
Reportedly he and his little brother Chad (father's girlfriend's younger son, about 13) were watching the NBA All Stars game on TV. It was halftime, Chad asked for candy, Martin went to buy and never came home.
I've thought that if there's anyone in this whole mess who has to be feeling REALLY crappy it's Chad. He's probably got survivor's guilt--'If I hadn't asked Trayvon to get me candy he wouldn't have died.'
so Trayvon can assume that George is a "creepy guy" But George cannot assume that Trayvon is a punk...... seems legit.
Google this:: According to a records search on George, he was previously arrested for domestic violence, resisting an officer without violence and most shockingly, resisting an officer with violence — a felony charge that surely could have landed him in prison.
My comment:: It pays to have a retired judge as a father-- and money to boot!
I wonder if the Dad would consider the records relevant if Trayvon was a straight "A" student, officer in student council, and showed a record of community service?
The evidence is the fact ON THE DAY OF the incident. NOTHING of Trayvon's past will be admissible in court. This is just the flailings of a loser and idiot murderer.
I just don't see how Zimmerman's case is going to benefit from having Trayvon's school or social media records. This new judge sounds like they have something against Trayvon.....I really don't like the direction this is headed. If the defense can have access to all of Trayvon's records, the prosecution should have access to all of George's medical records WITHOUT the judge reviewing them first.
I hope you people that think this is okay become victims of a crime and have to share all sorts of private and irrelevant information with your perpetrator.
This is really bad. Terrible precedent. They tried to pull this s__t against a rape victim too. Thank god the judge there wasn't an idiot. If this keeps up people will be too afraid to press charges.
Amanda-2017567...(#3.20)..."Kat:
Reportedly he and his little brother Chad (father's girlfriend's younger son, about 13) were watching the NBA All Stars game on TV. It was halftime, Chad asked for candy, Martin went to buy and never came home."
_______________________________
Really ??....Trayvon's father told Police dispatch the same thing at 9AM the next morning, calling in a missing person report....the last time he saw Trayvon was at 8-8:30 the night before.....
See, the trouble is, is that the NBA Game DIDN'T START till 7:30....Trayvon was already dead in the backyard a few hundred feet from the girlfriends backdoor at 7:30....and the place was full of police cars and ambulances by that time.....Where was the dad really ???...Did they tell the little kid what to say....Hmmmmm......something isn't quite right.
Facts are a stubborn thing when they don't match your agenda......
Trayvon is NOT the Victim till the Courts decide he's the Victim, and not Trayvon's Dad.
What a bunch of pinheads in here today. Yes Trayvon is a black kid with not such a great reputation and black kids get stereo typed all the time and for the most part deserve it. Because yes it's true thay bring it on themselves. But come on folks this dumb $hit Zimmerman is no dought a big loser in life and trying to be the big man he never was nor will be. He brought all of this on playing the cop, did everthing wrong and when he was attacked by Trayvon who did so in self defence he could not handle getting his a$$ kicked by a kid and shot the kid because he is a loser and a PU$$Y. You should not try and play cops and robbers the police officer we have today are highly trained professionals let them do there job or you will be the next A$$hole facing this kind of issue.
Have a great day god bless
I believe that Trayvon's social media activity is irrelevant but they can use it for whatever reason that they see fit..Trayvon's killer George Zimmerman will answer either in the court of law or the court before God where it says thou shalt not KILL!!!Trayvon wasn't perfect and no one says that he was an angel,but because of George Zimmerman's actions he is now an angel with God..Who gives him the right to decide to take a life to protect nothing??The fact remains that the police told him not to follow Trayvon and he did..He stalked him down and killed him because of his own hate inside his heart for a person that he thought was suspicious because he is a young Black man..
Dotties girl ...(#3.9)..."Bunkie they already know he's not sweet that's why they are upset. Might interfere with the civil suit if Zimmerman is found not guilty."
FYI......Not so....Part of the SYG statute prohibits civil lawsuits in these cases....to wit:
"Florida Statutes 776.032(1) then holds in pertinent part:
A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force...
This language makes clear that the law provides a true immunity and not merely an affirmative defense. The Florida legislative session law notes demonstrate the true intent behind the new law stating; "The Legislature finds that it is proper for law-abiding people to protect themselves, their families, and others from intruders and attackers without fear of prosecution or civil action for acting in defense of themselves and others". Ch. 2005-27 at 200, Laws of Florida. SeePeterson v State, 983 So. 2d 27 (Fla. 1st DCA 2008)"
The relatives of the dead guy can't sue, no matter how much of a nice guy they think he was.....
click> George Zimmerman Caught Lying About Trayvon Martin ... - YouTube
As One Who Has Zero Tolerance For BS, I'll Cut Right To The Chase......And Not Argue The Ridiculous Point Of Who The Real Victim Is In This Case. Zimmerman Is The Guilty Party Here. For 1 Reason And 1 Reason Only.......9/11 Dispatch TOLD Him To STAY IN HIS CAR!!! He Went Onto A Foot Path After This Teen. A FOOT PATH, ALMOST 100 FEET AWAY FROM HIS CAR. Where Is The Iminent Danger To His Person If The Teen Is Walking AWAY From Where You Were Stationed Observing Him??? This Is Why The Then Chief Of Police Was Fired & Should Be Charge For Gross Incompetance. Wheather He was An issue In School Or Not......ZIMMERMAN PRESSED THE CONFRONTATION WITH A TEEN THAT WAS WALKING AWAY FROM HIM, AND THEN SHOT AN UNARMED TEEN. No Person In Their Right Mind Can See This Any Other Way!!!
Perhaps you can link to a transcript where the dispatcher used those exact words? Of course not.. quit dreaming. The dispatchers EXACT words were "We don't need you to do that" when George acknowledged he was following the suspicious person.
Just how does someone punch another in the face when "walking away" Or are you claiming TM ran up, threw a punch, and then ran away? Show us the EVIDENCE. Of course your next argument is that TM had some sort of right to punch someone watching him.
@ trust_verify, ever heard of Paraphrasing??? Whatever the "exact"words were......it comes down to him being instructed, BY REAL POLICE, to remain in his vehicle. As I Said, I Will Not Argue The Obvious, TM Was On A Foot Path Where A Car Cant Gain Access. The Few Crime Scene Photos That Were Leaked, Show That The Path Was In A Direction Leading Away From Where GZ Was Parked. Meaning He Had To Follow TM In Order For There To Be A Confrontation.
YAHTC
Is Youtubeadmissible in court? I dont think so.
Bakerman1
Read the actual police reports and get back to us. I think you will find that Zimmerman was never on the phone to 911 and the Non-Emergency dispatcher never told him to stay in his car. Mis-information is a terrible thing, educate yourself before making foolish statements. You dont know if Martin was walking away from him, toward him, hiding in the bushes, you don know anything about what happened because you werent there, what we do know is that according to witnesses, Martin was on top of Zimmerman right before he was shot, and Zimmerman says Martin was reaching for his gun, which a jury will find completely plausible.
At the point (which was recorded) which Zimmerman left his vehicle and began pursuing (as he admitted on the tape) Martin - he was NOT in immediate and desperate fear for his life. As the pursuer of a teenage boy, with no evidence of criminal activity in progress, Zimmerman has now placed himself in the position of aggressor, which would preclude the use of deadly force. A lot will depend on the judge's interpretation of "deadly force doctrine" under Florida law. In my state (similar to the case in Texas recently), pursuing the subject ending in a violent encounter would be considered "aggravation" and self defense would not apply. If Zimmerman was really in fear for his life, why did he pursue in the first place? He had already notified the police, right?
Don't forget, in a previous incident where he reported a burglary at his neighbors house a couple weeks before this incident, Zimmerman waited for the police to arrive and did not take action despite the "crime in progress". Was the difference that he had his gun with him?
The confrontation did not occur until TM returned to attack GZ.
Bakerman 1.....here is a paraphrase...are you following him....we don't need you to do that.....for your own safety you should return to your vehicle and wait for the officer. But if you feel you will be ok, then go ahead and see if you can locate the suspicious person who ran away so the police can detain him quicker.
At the end of the day this was an altercation that went down badly. No evidence will hold water pointing at this being some hate crime. Zimmerman will walk free in '13.
Terrible precedent? What are they trying to hide?
PROOF he WAS A THUG and picked a fight with the WRONG GUY!
You are completely right....George knew NONE OF THIS!
Steve, did you read the transcript posted above? Zimmerman told the cops that the gun was not visible, to Martin, so there is no way he could have known Zimmerman had a gun, much less try to grab it. To answer other questions from above, the defense is obtaining Martin's school records in order to try to prove that he had a history of being violent. As others have stated, Zimmerman will be portrayed as the aggressor here as he stalked Martin in order to try to get an address from him (address of the house he was supposedly visiting), yet, he never identified himself to Trayvon, nor did he ask him about the address. He asked him "What are you doing here?", and that was his response to Trayvon asking him "Why are you following me?" I seriously doubt Zimmerman gets off the hook, unless daddy pulls some strings or something. It seems way too many screwed up things happen in Florida.
forget about the emotional crap. the facts are what need to come into play for the trial and in any criminal court of LAW. Personally I think Trayvon got his just deserts but the facts remain that because it was not black on black crime its now a racist crime. (had it been a black man killing a white teen.......this would not be as big as it is.)
George Z has a right to have as much info on Travyon as his family's lawyer has on him.
Brent
Go read the police reports and witness statements, I dont think a jury will have much trouble determining that Zimmerman was attacked and has a right to defend himself.
George Zimmerman used poor judgement but the Martin kids was worse. Zimmerman had every right to defend himself. That is what people are doing now days. Defending themselves. The media would rather have a victim than a defendant. He will have every right to sue up the ladder when he is found not guilty.
hummm.... wonder how zimmerman ended up with a broken nose. most 16-17 yr old black boys are always out looking for trouble. he was no angel. mr zimmerman had every right to defend himself just like anyone else. there is no doubt the "race card" will be played in this trial as always when the victim is black!! so sick of hearing,reading and listening about the "race card" being played EVERY TIME a crime is committed by a black against a white. i hope and pray that mr zimmerman get aquitted in this most ridiculous trial. my heart goes out to mr zimmerman and his family. the kid was nothing more than a punk,thug just like most blacks his age. every time i see the news or read a newspaper before i can even get to the second sentence reading about a crime a black youth is most always the one committing the crime. good luck mr zimmerman!!
Many of you are right in expressing what you believe, is truth. Right or wrong, Z may have felt it would be better to twist the truth to save Tray's lack of judgement. Tray must have been bummed that he was so close to connecting with this girl and got unnecessarily plucked from his hometown. Looking for sympathy while talking to her, on that day, he may have been trying to impress her with the situation at hand and, it may have BACKFIRED. RIP Tray, you may be in a better place now.
WTF-when to faulter
aud56, you are on here whining about people using the race card, while making racist statements yourself. Maybe if people like yourself, weren't so racist, there wouldn't be a need to use "the race card".
Sal
You mean this case in Houston?
A Harris County grand jury on Monday ended the rancorous seven-month debate over Pasadena resident Joe Horn's decision to gun down two illegal immigrant burglars in his front yard, concluding the act was a justifiable use of deadly force and not murder.
http://www.chron.com/neighborhood/pasadena-news/article/Joe-Horn-cleared-by-grand-jury-in-Pasadena-1587004.php
So what you are saying ...
Every criminal in the newspaper or mentioned on the news. If he is not listed as black - then we can safely assume he must be a White male?
the average news broadcast is 30 minutes long, 2 minutes or 3 - 4 colums of the news is given to blacks ... obviously the other 26 - 28 minutes of news is about white offenders? Answer a questin for us - when you hear about a rural family being murdered in their home, possibly in their sleep ... with wife, kids, mother-in-law...maybe even the family dog; shot to death or knifed in some odd ritualized manner..
What or who comes to your mind first - 40, 50 year old white male or black male? Maybe the reason you see so many cases, is due to you "looking" for that particulare headline? Its like I can't remembers seeing any corvairs on the road in years. then within the next moth or so - I start seeing 20 or 30 - either my wish is their command or you find what you are looking for?
Thanks for playing... be sure to pick up your parting gifts as you leave.
you all have thoughtful comments Comment collapsed by the community
I disagree, C. Smith. Trayvon was pursued by a stranger who missed two opportunities to identify himself as a neighborhood watch volunteer. Trayvon was innocently walking home from the store....but.......
George pursued Trayvon from Frank Taaffe's house on to the clubhouse where security camera's picked up George looking for Trayvon with his flashlight then returned to his vehicle and drove on TTL past the mailboxes, made a U-turn and watched Trayon.
Trayvon told Deedee that a creepy guy was following him. The fact that Trayvon called George creepy reveals the concern that Trayvon had of this suspicious pursuer.
George still did not stop following Trayvon.
When Trayvon ran away up on to a sidewalk inaccessible to vehicles in order to create distance between himself and George in his car......George IMMEDIATELY exited his silver Ridgeline right after telling the dispatcher, "He's running."
Let's now consider the attitude George had toward Trayvon.
What George said to the dispatcher at that moment says it all---
This is the mindset that was driving George as he commenced his chase of Trayvon.
The dispatcher, hearing George running, asked George....."Are you following him?'
George replied, "Yes".
Any normal person including Trayvon would be worried and on high alert in such a situation AND feel threatened by being pursued by an unknown stranger.
Thus, when the two did meet up, Trayvon was already feeling defensive toward this creepy George.
Deedee has stated that she heard Trayvon ask George, "Why are you following me?"
This would have been an ideal time for George to have simply identified himself as a member of Neighborhood Watch.
Did George identify himself as such. The answer is NO.
This leads me to conclude that Trayvon's punch to George's nose was an act of self defense against a creepy and potentially dangerous stranger.......especially when Trayvon at that moment saw George reaching for something in the area (below) of George's waistband.
I truly think that George reaching for his cellphone in his pant pocket alarmed Trayvon.........especially since George did not identify himself......but merely answered Trayvon's question with, "What are you doing here?"
#3.2 - Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:43 PM EDT
All that really truly matters is what went down THAT night. In fact, in this case BOTH sides will probably try to dig up the past of the other participant to paint a picture of a nefarious individual. The defense will try to paint Trayvon as a violent thug and the prosecution will try to paint Zimmerman as a racist thug. Be careful what you ask for. They tried to dig up social media stuff on Casey Anthony and it backfired when every witness who was asked testified that she was a loving mother (but the media didn't report THAT, did they?).
I think the big thing here is the various reports that Trayvon was bragging on twitter of facebook about beating up a bus driver.
If that turns out to be true, that would cast Trayvon in a very negative light and support Zimmerman's claim that Trayvon attacked him.
What's going to decide the case is the forensic evidence. Zimmerman's and Trayvon's wounds will be able to determine what position they were in when the trigger was pulled. The prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that whatever that scenario was fell outside the realm of self-defense. My prediction is that we'll see why exactly charges weren't filed initially. My guess is that Zimmerman's wounds combined with the angle of the entry wound led the investigators to believe there wasn't enough reason to file charges that night. All of that evidence will be scrutinized during trial and a decision will be made by the jury. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a conviction due to the "beyond a reasonable doubt" burden. The prosecution must prove their case, the defense doesn't have to prove diddily.
ScubaSteve, just because he may have spoken about such an event does not mean it actually occurred. You can't hold something like that up as truth without independent verification.
scubasteve, theres 2 police reports regarding Zimmerman committing assaults. One on an undercover cop. Yet, you havent mentioned that..just some supposed report about trayvon...why not stick to facts that actually exist? You have to have serious issues to pick a fight with a cop...so if thats the game thats played, Zimmerman will lose BIG TIME! Also, he had a history of acting like a wanna be tough guy, thinking hes bad cause he has a gun...i know the type. Not him, but the type..and typically, stuff like this is inevitable. If not Trayvon, he would have killed someone else eventually. Lastly, he decieved people who offered to help him. Or have we forgotten about why the first judge is no longer on the case? Zimmerman and his wife got caught trying to siphon the donated funds into their accounts at the notorious increment of 9900 (10k causes flags to go up..most criminals do this to prevent that), and then proceeded to lie to the court about said funds as if they didnt exist. If he had the gall to lie to the court, i have to assume he had the gall to lie about the incident (i dont know any of that, just using the same logic some are using for the VICTIM and showing how the same could be said for their hero Zimmerman..Personally, if you kill someone thats unarmed, you better be able to prove it or your best chance is to man up and walk away. On a personal note, i have asked many people who wander into my complex what they are up to...never ONCE got into a fight. In my opinion, zimmerman wanted to act tough and it ended with a life taken. Sorry, in my opinion he deserves prison time...manslaughter is the charge i thought best though im no attorney)
American110%,
Since you are bringing up Zimmerman's past, I assume you agree with the judges position to release Trayvon's records?
Nope. That would be a single incident and does not show a history of violent and aggressive behavior. The history has to be there to offer presumption that someone is inclined toward violent and aggressive tendencies.
And, in that case, it would also help if they managed to come up with some evidence to support it. No police report, no complaint filed, no bus driver confirming that such a thing ever happened. Seventeen year old kids say stupid stuff in an impulsive moment on social media. That is why they are still juveniles, and not adults. Their brain is still not completely developed.
Bragging about something on a social media website is not the same as actually doing it. There is a somewhat similar case which happened in Georgia in 2005. The Root link is here. In that case the shooter was a black homeowner and a white contractor. The contractor was trespassing and threatened Mr. McNeil. However, McNeil's 911 call prior to the confrontation provided evidence that he intended to "kick some butt". He also retrieved and loaded his gun prior to going out into his yard to confront Brian Epp rather than wait for the police. Epp had a history of threatening behavior.
In Zimmerman's 911 call he stated that he thought something was wrong with Martin that maybe Martin was on drugs. Yet paradoxically, Zimmerman got out of his SUV and followed Martin.
TRY to paint GZ as a racist thug etc.. etc..??????? GET REAL! The media, Tryavons' parents, Sharpton and many others have been doing everthing in their POWER to smear and skew this story against GZ in every and any possible way up to and including folks like Spike Lee almost getting INNOCENT people KILLED because he thought it was HIS RIGHT to tweet to the nation and attempt to influence people to commit VIOLENT acts!!!!
Let's all keep in mind, shall we, who exactly is on trial for murder? It sure as hell isn't Trayvon Martin.
DOCJT,
And let's keep in mind who is being accused of assault by the other side.
It very easily been Trytvon on trial. If he had knock out power. The intent was there but he didn't have a chance to close the deal.
so then if the T is clear on his past, his parents should be happy to release the infos as it would prove that in fact their son was the Angel they said it was.
if he wasnt that Angel and was in fact violent in nature, then of course they'll worry.
I am not for either side hopefully the truth will come out.
Zimmerman walks. Treyvon hit him and punched him out, Zimmerman shot the punk. Case closed, Zimmerman was attacked, and he will walk.
And reports that surfaced about Zimmerman having runins with the police don't mean anything? And records of the numerous calls from Zimmerman about suspicious persons-- most of them calls about blacks-- don't mean anything? Saint George was out to kill a black and by golly one came into view. Boy oh boy, Saint George got to slay the dragon!
JCB:: You were there and saw the whole thing? We only have ONE SIDE of the story. There are THREE sides to every story, and since Saint George killed one side to the story there is his side left. And God's side, and the guy in the sky ain't talking.
George Zimmerman Caught Lying About Trayvon Martin ... - YouTube
So GZ is now responsible for the fact that there are thousands of black criminals in Florida???
No, he's accused of murdering a black teenager who was not committing a crime. Big difference. Are you saying he's not responsible for his own actions? People like this give responsible gun owners/CC'ers a bad name.
So its okay for you to pre-judge TM, but we should reserve assumptions about GZ? I would guess that these records will show that he was a teenager, and if there is "thuggish" (for lack of a better word) behavior or conversations in these records one should take into account that teenagers do have a tendency to portray a certain image to be "cool" or to gain acceptance. But, nevertheless, when this young man was approached or if he was the approacher, either way, he wasn't engaged in any activity thuggish or otherwise. He was minding his business, not bothering anybody, just walking back to the house from the store, and for this he had to die! And yes his parents would portray him as a "sweet" child, he was theirs! How would you feel if this was your child, dead at 16 simply because he looked a certain way! Who deputized GZ and gave him the authority to pursue anyone? When GZ called 911 and reported a young black kid walking down the street, his job was done anything else was up to the proper authorities. And you have the audacity to accuse TM of selling weed to kids? Really? He was caught with an empty bag that contained traces marijuana...does that mean he was selling weed? You have proved you points to be determined by the very same "profiling" technique as the man who pulled the trigger. Maybe you should think about how you would feel had your son been the person laying in the street with no life left in him.
To all who think that GZ was justified in killing TM and who have negative thoughts towards the parents of TM to make this case public, how would you feel if your child were lying cold in a morgue for a couple of days, before being told my child is dead, because forwhatever reason the SPD didn't IMMEDIATELY notify the parents, and when they finally bring them the bad news, along with that news they also say that the man that shot him wasn't charged. There hasn't been a trial, there couldn't have been a thorough investigation because that same night GZ was questioned and released. A boy is dead and they just take the work of the perpetrator. Now what would you expect GZ to say, "Uh, he was walking down the street he was black and wearing a hoodie so I shot him"? My point is this, it was unacceptable to the parents of TM that their child is dead and no one is held responsible, and there are so many unanswered questions. Had the parents not made this case public, it would have been swept under the rug as another black kid dead, so what. Would any of you accept this if it were your child...dead at 16 years old and no explanations. And, obviously there is some covering up going on with this case...2 police reports, GZ doesn't even go to the hospital that night, he claims he was in fear for his life, his head being pounded into the pavement over and over, he thought he was gonna die, but he didn't feel the need to go to the hospital after this near death traumatic encounter. The SPD act as the judge and jury and decide that he was standing his ground...If it were my child, I would try my best to stand my ground to, I would stand on the ground that this 30 year old man shot and killed my 16 year old son with no legitimate reason and many unanswered questions. If people can't understand that, then I would say that you must be some heartless creatures!!!
GZ is a short, unattractive little twerp. He killed and should be held accountable for that. Had he listened to the dispatcher and stayed put... The cops would have come. GZ has a violent background. His family is a bunch of beggers. His wife is a liar and all of them should be given a hard dose of reality. Justice will take place, if those who have the power are honest and fair. If Trayvon Martin's parent's had not spoken up... The cops would have pushed this under the rug. The cops should be held accountable for how they didn't uphold the law... Did Zimmerman's family stop begging for money over the Internet? What a bunch of dysfunctional people... BST your comments resonate and have a ring of truth...
Trayvon was an anti-social drug dealing miscreant as his twitter and facebook accounts clearly and undeniably demonstrate.
The media has depicted Trayvon as a choir boy which is totally inaccurate. He was just another mindless young punk who got what he was looking for. Kudos to Mr George Zimmerman! He shold be getting a medal, not a trial.
So every "punk" should be shot down? At 17, one may not be a hardened criminal. Would you say the same if it were your son or grandson?
What difference does any of that make? He could be a miscreant that didn't do a single thing wrong that night or he could have been an innocent choir boy that made a bad decision and paid the ultimate price. Forensic evidence will be vastly more important than character evidence for either side.
Harley, if Travon was white would you feel the same way? I think not...
Harley, no need to answer, it's pretty clear where you stand...
Well, I see the lies and the blatant racism continue. Zimmie Zealots are not even bright enough to come up with anything new.
the wolf circled around and attacked Zimmerman, when he could of just ran home. justifiable shooting. The records will expose the media racial bias.
BLACK, WHITE OR BLUE if Trayvons' dad had stayed home with his son, who had just been suspended from school for the 3rd time in a year, instead of heading out on the town to party with his girfriend, NONE of this would have ever happened. Trayvons' own family refuse to be held accountable for Trayvons' behavior and their own lack of ability to watch over him!!!
Maybe if the neighborhood wasn't always being victimized by thieves, GZ wouldn't have been out that night. And I still don't understand why TM was there at that time wasn't it 1am or something like that? Also if he was walking home is that neighborhood in line with his home? I have not seen any map of his route from starting point to home, Is there one I can goggle please attach a link if there is one.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/02/us/the-events-leading-to-the-shooting-of-trayvon-martin.html
The shooting occurred at roughly 7:15 p.m., not 1 a.m. Zimmerman said he was going to Target when he spotted Martin.
Oh, I see. Now it's Trayvon's father's fault that Zimmerman murdered him. Nice reach, skrewdworld. Why don't you just blame me? A right-leaning, independent, 53-year-old white woman surely must have something to do with this.
Totally agree 100% Harley Guy65
skrewdworld what are you talking about? he went to the store at 7:00 at night and was on his way home. Where did you get this bs he was heading out to party with his girlfriend? If Zimmerman would have stayed in the car and not followed him like the dispatcher told him to,this would not of happened. How can you claim self defense when you are following a person without identifying yourself. Martin did not go looking for Zimmerman. Zimmerman instigated the situation and should of taken his beating like a man. Instead the coward pulls a gun. Nothing Martin did deserved the death penalty.
Richard:
And I still don't understand why TM was there at that time wasn't it 1am or something like that?
Get your facts straight before you post. You make yourself look foolish. It was 7:00 pm and during an NBA All-star game when he left to go buy skittles. Not 1 am.
Need I point out that the only people portraying Martin as a choir boy are the idiots who want us to let Zimmy get away with murder.
Duggy2001-please learn to comprehend. Trayvons' dad was NOT a home that time and in control of his kids' actions because he, (the DAD) was out partying with his girlfriend!!!!
Martin did NOT get the death penalty. HE got himself shot to death because he thought it would be a good idea to attack Zimmerman. Guess he believed he was a big enough bad ass that he could take on Zimmerman, His mistake was not realizing that the other guy might have a gun and defend himself with it!
Kat-I'm a 52 year old parent of 4 ages 31, 21, 20 and 17. Sometimes my kids hated me because I held them accountable for their actions. When they got in trouble they got grounded, lost priveleges etc.. Grounded means you STAY home, you do NOT go to the store for junk food, you don't use a cell phone, a computer, video games, nothing , nada fun period!!! IF you get suspended from school 3 times in one year and our ou tof parental control enough to be sent to the male parent you need PUNISHMENT like being grounded for starters!!! IF TRayvons' dad took some responsibility for the kids' behavior and in turn held Trayvon accountable I believe there would be NO story here to comment on!!!
And Kat if you were a parent who didn't correct your kids behavior and keep them out of more trouble then yeah, I would hold you to some responsibility for it!!
Skrewdworld, you have a skrewd mentality. Everyone may not apply the same parenting techniques as you. And another thing, while you are so quick to blame TM, what about the fact GZ went out of his way to pursue something...what he was trying to prove has yet to be told. But GZ was supposedly on his way to target...so why turn what could have been an easy stop and question incident by the SPD into a murder investigation. GZ said in his interview with Hannity that TM asked him wtf was his problem, why was he following him or whatever, GZ said he then reached in his pocket for his cell phone...well if some stranger is following you and when confronted he reaches in his pocket, you can pretty much expect to get punched in the face...he couldve been reaching for his gun at that point who knows...my point being, don't act like this boy is dead and it completely his fault. GZ thought that because he was armed he had protection thus justifying the pursuit of someone you claim looks like is up to no good. But what he didn't count on was a 17 year old kid kickin his ass. If GZ was in fear for his life, and if TM was banging his head to the point of almost losing conscienceness, if his beating was so sever he thought he was gonna die, why didn't he go to the hospital directly after the shooting? Bottom line...he had no right to shoot and kill that kid!!!
Kat
You were saying something about looking foolish when you didnt have your facts straight?
The 2012 NBA All-Star Game was an exhibition basketball game which was played on February 26, 2012 at 7:30 p.m. EST at the Amway Center in Orlando, Florida, home of the Orlando Magic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_NBA_All-Star_Game
Travon was where he was because of a school expulsion for selling drugs. He was violent and busted up GZ and why he got shot. @BW, this is complete self defense and I too would love to be on a jury. We would be eating BBQ by noon...........
lol sorry, wrong answer moron. He never got caught selling drugs..and any person who thinks killing a kid in cold blood, that had NO WEAPON, is a pathetic excuse for a human being.
No one is saying that, but if some punk was trying to kill you, you are allowed to defend yourself. That's what Zimmerman did.
Seven
They shouldn't let people like you Breed.......You low Lifed Lice carrying piece of Trailer Trash. The way you think tells he rest of the White Race who you are. You give White Folks a bad name. I guess if some creepy guy is following you you are gonna run and hide or drop to your knees like a little Bi-ch. You and Burns
How is it self defense if you started the trouble? That is what this case is about, you can't go around looking for and starting trouble and then kill in the name of self defense. Wake up!
Well, why didn't you say so? He was suspended from school? Really? Really? Well, let's just shoot every teen who has ever been suspended from school right through the heart. Bet they won't do that again. (sarcasm ended)
Trayvon Martin had every right to be where he was. Period.
And the remainder of your post can be reduced to one of two things: profound ignorance of the facts, or blatant racism. Probably a combination of the two..
Absolutely NO EVIDENCE that GZ's life was in danger but from GZ and GZ is a LIAR. Do you always take a liar's words at face value?
american,
martin had an empty marjuana bag on him when he was shot. pot is not free.
jim wilson:
martin had an empty marjuana bag on him when he was shot.
He most certainly did not. You know nothing. Please show proof of this.
Concerned Citizen,
If having your nose broken by a guy who is now on top of you doesn't make you feel like your life is in danger, I don't know what would.
Kat,
You're correct. I haven't seen any report that Trayvon had a baggie on him, and it would have come out by now if he had.
Concerned-Where you an eyewitness? NO you were NOT. Are you judge, jury and executioner on this case?? NO, you are NOT and never will be thank goodness!!!
And BTW your remarks in post #6.3 were rude, stupid and uncalled for. Grow up MOM?? I seriously hope your not a mom!
Mom, maybe a Travon will get your kids hooked on drugs or beat his @ss after school?? Oh no, your kid probably does your drugs. American10% you should know he was expelled for having empty baggies with Pot flakes. Amazing how others can't stand free speech or a differing opinion?? Two inbreeds who should never meet.
Doc...
Do these people ever give up?
So a girl gets raped.......they get her school records which indicate she may have been promiscuous..
That would justify the rape then?......It appears they @!$%#s believe the same thing about TM.
Gettin really old..............hurry up June..........winter will be over anyway :)
Right Patrick, because you've never brought up Zimmerman's past in your arguments? It took me all of two seconds to find this in your recent comments:
Here's the link: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/10/17/14508890-florida-judge-sets-june-start-date-for-george-zimmerman-murder-trial?threadId=3591327&commentId=71220770#c71220770
click> George Zimmerman Caught Lying About Trayvon Martin ... - YouTube
Scubasteve, Zimmerman's past is relevant because he is the one charged with a crime. Martin is the victim of said crime.
Misscreant,
Martin isn't the victim of the crime until Zimmerman is convicted. Zimmerman's defense is that Martin assaulted him, which means that Martin's personality and history are very relevant.
Actually, in a court of law, the prior behaviors of both people in this case, would be admissible. Yes GZ's prior arrests and records should also be up for review before the court. Especially if TM'S are being used. Courts are supposed to be fair and unbiased in their scrutiny.
Since Travon died the burglaries in that complex have stopped.
Trayvon was there for only a few days before being shot. To somehow imply that he could have been responsible for them is absurd.
The only way the two could be connected is if there was additional police and media presence in the area due to the high profile of this case, thus discouraging burglars.
It could be because Zimmerman isn't there anymore.
That's almost as absurd as your statement.
Seriously, though. Use your brain. The real reason is most likely because that area is very high-profile now. Anyone would be an idiot to go and burglarize that place now.
jawzee:: Trayvon didn't live there permanently. Did he come up there and commit the crimes you think he committed? Do YOU know that the burglaries at that complex have stopped? From where do you get that information?
Get your head out of your a-ss and say things that you actually know about-- which is not a dam thing.
how do you know this...do you live there? Are you incinuating that TM would have been breaking in the residents houses so he could buy his skittles and tea? That was a pretty dumb assumption huh? to buy skittles & tea...just as dumb as your incinuations? Hmmm....Considering Zimmerman was walking around ARMED maybe he was the burglar we can make silly assumptions all day!
bstraitupitiswatitis
Georges whereabouts were KNOWN during the previous incidents. Were TM's? Sanford blotter is a PUBLIC record under FL sunshine laws... ALL of their incident logs are available for viewing. There have been NO burglaries since this fatal night.
As for George walking around LEGALLY armed, what is your point? No crimes were reported with firearms or threat of their use in or in the area of RTL since George obtained his CCW.
There was no Assumption only an OBSERVATION.
For those in the martin camp who INSIST on random speculation and building "their" case on twisting the facts, words, and EVIDENCE, the above OBSERVATION is as valid, if not more so, than much of what has been speculated on these threads. The observation is VERIFIABLE by simply looking at the reports. Is it a STRETCH no more so than some of the BS that has been strewn around here and even reported by the "media".
Why was GZ whereabouts be an issue during the previous incidents. Or does he just randomly call the police and tell them his itinary? If GZ happened to be the "witness" for all of the other incidents then maybe he was up to no good!
My point is the incinuation that TM could have been breaking into houses is an assumption. Just as my statement that GZ could have been the burglar. Obviously the mention of a firearm in relation to the burglaries wouldn't be in a report considering the tenant or homeowner did not come in contact with the burglar. But it would make sense for the burglar was armed, however, you speak as if thats not an option.
Yeah, an observation and incinuation. If the fact that since TM has died there haven't been any more break-ins wasn't an incinuation, then what was the point of the statement?
FACT: GZ OBSERVES TM WALKING IN THE RAIN AND THINKS HE IS SUSPICIOUS
FACT: GZ CALLED 911
FACT: GZ GETS OUT OF HIS VEHICLE AND PURSUES TM
FACT: 911 DISPATCHER TELLS GZ THEY DON'T NEED HIM TO FOLLOW TM
FACT: GZ IS NOT A MEMBER OF SPD
I can stop there, if GZ had stayed in his vehicle, no one would be dead. Once GZ called 911 his job was done! Who is he to follow anybody? He had called the police all he had to do was wait for them.
should of could of would of IF IF IF perhaps maybe... same old crap
IF Trayvon had not been suspended
IF Tracy Martin had stayed home
IF Trayvon had gone home directly
IF Trayvon had not been involved in that deadly street fight
Criminal trials are not based on IF but rather what DID happen.
BStrait,
Zimmerman got out of his car before the police gave their "command" not to follow. And once they gave their command, there is no evidence that Zimmerman continued to follow, and some evidence indicating he stopped following.
What is the basis of your belief that Zimmerman disregarded the police order?
there goes that"magic" teleportation beam...again. Zimmerman got from his car to where ever trayvon was shot -by no visiable means of transportation.
That only leaves "magic" or teleportation. Florida, being in the Bible belt cannot allow Satan's minions to practice magic, also - they ascribe to the belief that science and evolution linked - obviously science is another of Satan's tools. (I have no idea how you can reconcile the space center in Florida with an anti science belief in both Texas and Florida?), but some how Huston space center and Kennedy (Cape Canaveral) space center are doing the devils work - and nothing has gone to Hell yet...
So teleportation it is.
Beoweolf
Great response with a counter argument.. come out invoking religion and name calling.
The question was straight forward.. WHAT is the basis of your belief that George disregarded the police order?
First there was no ORDER only advice
George was out of his vehicle BEFORE the ADVICE was given
There is EVERY indication that George stopped following and is corroborated by "deedee" in that she claims trayvon said he had lost the person following him.
See if you can respond with a counter argument or just more smoke.
Scuba
I never said he didn't follow an order...if you look at my comment I said he left his vehicle and dispatcher said they don't need him to do that, I don't consider "we don't need you to do that" an order. What I'm saying is he shouldn't have followed ....period! He had called 911 and was informed the police were in route, his duty as a neighborhood watch member and as a resident of the complex was complete. He was not supposed to by any standard, follow this person in relation to his suspicions. He put himself and TM in an unnecessary situation that ultimately resulted i in the death of a human being, a situation that should have and could have been avoided.
T_V and Scubasteve - where have you been for the last 8 months? GZ has already admitted that he did not return to his vehicle. Do you just look over the statements and evidence you don't like or what? GZ told Serino and Singleton that he continued in the same direction as TM and Serino laughs and says "That would be following". GZ's lame excuse was that he was looking for an address. The point is that if GZ had of been a "normal and reasonable" person and not a paranoid, wanna-be cop, TM would still be alive.
And if you listen further, DeeDee also says that as TM was catching his breath from running that GZ showed up again.
Geez- why don't you quit picking and choosing what to post out of the evidence.
T_V - you are constantly accusing the "Martin Camp" of twisting and speculating. IMO - you are the worst of the ZimmieZealots for posting half-truths and flat out lies. AND, you've been doing it since before May.
Oh, 'lil gansgsta goin' to be shown for who he be. Where's Al now? If his punk ass was capped by a brother in Chicago this wouldn't have been a story in the first place.
MIKE
STFU!!! You Wanna BE!!!! You are just another piece of our illiterate Trash!!!
Mom 1010-Your a mom??? Great example to any kids of yours!! The way you just talked to Mike was ridiculous!! And over a story you really have no facts on!!! Good job, NOT!
No, she sounds like someone who knows how to protect her kids.......especially from scary people like George.
Yep, sure, the nearly 30, out of shape, scary, scary boogeyman "white Hispanic". YIKES!!!
Mom, you apparently did not care for my play on ebonics. Well let me go and wash my mouth out with soap. "It was...soap poisoning." (from the movie Christmas Story) Are we still allowed to type the word "Christmas" on this forum without being collapsed by the so-called tolerant left?
Mike,
Are you a parent? I would think not considering the disrespect you're directing toward some parents' dead son! If this had happened in Chicago and the police reacted as they did, if it wasn't a story, it should have been. And I'm sure Al is wherever he wants to be, one of the things Al does is to seek justice in situations that may be viewed as unjust. So, Al has done what he came to do, this case is now going to trial. Maybe before you start passing judgement or criticizing you should try using the part of your anatomy that is attached to your neck, your head, some actually have a brain inside, although that could be questionable in your case.
There is no justification for an adult killing a child, but many parents think it, and some actually do it. Almost all kids do things without thinking of any other possibility of the outcome, other than what they want to happen from their actions. Poor choices end lives. Tray should have waited two more minutes for the police to arrive. I feel that was the intention of Z to wait for the police assistance HE requested. Stop the nonsense.
WTF Mike - and how was Trayvon supposed to know the police where on the way? GZ did not even bother to identify himself, so I am sure he did not say that the police where on the way. I really don't understand how everyone just assumes that Trayvon was not afraid for his life after being followed all over the neighborhood (first by vehicle and then on foot) by some"creepy" guy. Some of the worst gangs in our country are Latino. Let's face it GZ looks latino. Maybe TM thought he was being followed by a Latino gangbanger and "Stood His Ground" against this threat. Especially since he had lost GZ and then he reappeared - maybe TM felt he no choice but to fight to get away. That's what we teach our children to do. Run, Scream and if all else fails - fight with all your might to get away from a stranger that possibly means you harm. TM did all of those things. In fact, TM ran twice.
It is absolutely amazing that all the ZimmieZealots believe GZ's story as if it is gospel. I do not take the word of a known liar (GZ) at face value - especially when he is trying to save his own a$$. George Zimmerman put the wheels in motion, so he must accept the consequences of killing an unarmed teenager that was doing absolutely nothing wrong. He was walking home from the store in the rain with a hoodie. GZ appointed himself, Judge, jury and executioner - that is not acceptable in this country. Thank God enough rational people made this killing public so GZ would have to face a trial.
TM saw GZ in his vehicle, on the phone, in a gated community.
I have not seen any info about TW having a latino gang problem.
TM would more likely think that GZ was the po po.
cc
A question that is going to have to be answered is "if Martin ran, where did run to", he sure didnt run home, and if he ran twice, how did he end up where the fight took place, a jury is going to want to know the answer to that question.
I'm pretty sure the defense knows that Zimmerman had no prior knowledge of the contents of Trayvon's school records and social media accounts. It's just a defense tactic to throw dirt on the deceased and portray him as a thug or someone else that would otherwise have given Zimmerman cause to "feel threatened" and have justification to kill him. This tactic is nothing new from defense lawyers.
Why there was little public outcry when the records of Zimmerman were released is because he is the one being charged. Because he's pleading self-defense, his history (to me) becomes relevant to establish whether or not he's committed actions like this before out of prejudice, hatred, etc. or if it truly were self-defense.
Just my 2¢.
If you were charged with a DUI would the court Prosecutor look at your driving record for DUI convictions? Would he pull that and use facebook media to support a drinking lifestyle? You bet you @ss they would for a conviction. This is looking at Travons lifestyle which is not good and why they want it hushed up.
When you look at the facts there is no way a jury will convict "beyond a reasonable doubt". But the first one will be a mistrial as a Black juror will hold out on their prejudice bias, wait and see.
If you were killed in a car accident by another driver and autopsy blood tests showed you were not drinking at the time of the accident occurred, but the other driver was, would the prosecutor look at your driving record for for a past DUI?
No.
Would it proper or reasonable for the defense atty to do so?
No.
Why not? Because it isn't relevant to the accident that killed you.
Sir, The main flaw in your logic is that Travon is not charged with anything, Zimmerman is. I take it from your comments that you strongly believe in putting the victim on trail before the one who did the crime. While his records may be relevant, please believe Zimmermans records are just as relevant. Oh...but the judge wants to review Zimmermans records before allowing the prosecuters access. A shame the judge didn't care much about the victims rights either.
If you were in GZ's shoes you'd be pulling every single bit of information about Trayvon you could get your hands on. Don't lie and don't be a hippocrite!!!! And it is a matter of fact true that if you get a DUI and get on a diversion or get convicted you'll be on some type of probation. IF your caughtdoing anything wron during your probation period the DA can and will look at facebook etc.. and will use comments, pictures etc.. in reagards to your drinking/partying against you. All they are doing in this case is looking for evicence to prove that Trayvon was capable of behaving in an violent manner. It's their right to do so, the judge says so, SO GET OVER IT!!
Anyone is capable of violent behavior if placed in a survival mode situation. Martin had no police record whatsoever. His social media presence has zero bearing on the real world person he was. The closest any evidence could possibly come from that source about Martin would be pure speculation and circumstantial to the max.
This latest manoeuvring by Zimmerman's lawyer is purely a delaying tactic and attempt to smear the victim with innuendo.
Well this goes on in many trials, likely hundreds of thousands of trials where the "victims" life is brought up. IF you don't like it culheath then do something about getting the laws changed across this nation. It's not like it's only happening in this one case!!
I don't think Zimmerman will be a free man or even an alive man, once this trial is over.
Most states don't allow a rape victim's sexual history to be brought up. And I don't see how disciplinary records from school could be relevant to the circumstances here.
Zimmerman says Martin attacked him, if the kid was a thug, the records will show it and are relevant. You dont get suspended 3 times in 5 months for being a choirboy.
@steve, you do in my old high school. The problem is the music kids universally take issue with teachers teaching lies, half-truths, or simply being terrible at their job be it in handling a disciplinary situation to blatantly singling out a student and force-failing them. We bring it up because we notice, and we often get suspended for challenging teachers' authority in the classroom or "disrupting the learning process" when in fact we're fixing it. Don't assume his school system was ideal and perfect.
Just for the sake of reference, I'm now a student at Miami University (ohio).
I wasn't aware that Trayvon was charged with anything
And I say the moon is made of cheese...what Zimmerman says does not have to be true. And his school records will show this how? To look at the school record to determine a persons' character would lead you into the "assumption" process, and we all know things are not always as they appear, so to try and demean the victim's character and the victim cannot defend himself, and considering the facts that have already been established, such as, GZ following TM, GZ getting out of his vehicle in the first place, I would say any attack that may or may not have taken place was initiated when he left his vehicle specifically to follow TM. So whether TM was a choir boy or a bank robber, GZ initiated a situation that could have been avoided. At the time that GZ made all of his assumptions, TM was walking down the street, since when does walking down the street equate to "he must be up to no good"? If someone stranger were following me and when and when asked about it he reaches into his pocked (gz) natural instincts would then kick in, the average person would've punched GZ in his face.
Typically the prosecution does not charge the dead... taxpayers get upset when THEIR money is wasted.
If Martin had a propensity towards violence, its going to be a problem for the prosecution, if he didnt, its going to be a problem for the defense, let the records come out and speak for themselves. If the Judge admits Zimmermans records, its going to be a problem that the defense is going to have to deal with, but remember, those records are 7 years old and he is now a NW guy, and Martins records, if any, are current.
Yet another lie, told by George... They checked - george was Not a "Watch Captain" as first reported. Following that revelation - the Neiborhood Watch organizations stated several times that Twin Lakes Retreat was not listed as a member on their rolls.
However Goeorge tried to claim the was an Offical member of Neighborhood watch Orgainization - it was a lie.
George started lying from the begining an has never stopped. If he was a member of some other watch group, then name it and quit dragging the Neighborhood watch organization's name through the mud!
It's not dificult to join, but you have to pledge to follow the rules.
http://www.usaonwatch.org/
Bewoeolf
As usual, you have not read the released evidence before posting. Go read page 229 and you will see that Zimmerman was part of a neighborhood watch program and that Wendy Dorvial was the SPD Community Volunteer Coordinator. If you had read any of the other information released youd know that Zimmerman was on his way to Target that night, and being a CCW holder had every right to be armed.
If you want to argue the evidence, fine, but at least read the reports and the information that has been made available. The website Ive provided is PDF files and cant be tampered with, these are official reports.
http://www.news4jax.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf
STEVE
are you a fool --- what do you think is on the list of criteria to be part of the SPD'S NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH PROGRAM
it states no weapons and just observe and dont do the job of an officer.
You cant be BOTH STEVE-- you cant be a neighborhood watch captain and carry your weapon, ZIMMERMAN choose to be a citizen with a valid permit, that is then BOUND to his HOUSING ASSOCIATION RULES, not a watch captain.
if zimmerman wanted to be the spd's watch captain he had to leave his gun at home while out on watch---BUT HE DIDN'T DO THAT -- because he was going to the store(remember that part).
why keep lying about what is common knowledge. local regional national federal, they all have the same requirements to abide by the rules or being a watch program participant.
cj
Not carrying a weapon (stick, gun, 8 cell flashlight, baton, mace, etc.) is an advisement. It is not a law or regulation.
And if you think "watch" does not include following the person(s) when they move through the neighborhood, then you are just plain stupid.
kpm
here the way i know your a full time bullsh-ter
go look it up read it and try to stop posting b.s. because it clearly says what the limitations are of ANYONE IN AMERICA and even in sanford florida must follow to be declared a member of a watch group.
ONCE AGAIN your need to lie to yourself about the reality of whats documented by the police department and by the federal groups-- is what zimmerman HAD TO DO be able to CLAIM
he is a watch member-- SO HE CANT because he chose no to.
READ THE BELOW AND TRY TO KEEP THE YOUR PITIFUL LIES TO YOUR SELF GOING ON HOW YOU CANT DEAL WITH THE REALITY.
cj
That is someones bs opinion.
And no where in your copy and paste does it mention anything about laws or legal prohibitions.
You should learn to read what you are going to copy and paste before you do it, stupid.
cj
Now if you want to talk about doing something you are not supposed to be doing......what are the rules at your taxpayer paid job, about making personal posts on internet vines while you are supposed to be working for the taxpayers.
You have said you only post while you are at work have you not?
Too cheap to get your own internet access?
Or too used to being on the taxpayer dole?
KPM
Hey dippy,
we have already went over this, any WEBSITE THAT WE HAVE ACCESS TOO here in the jail has been approved by the i.t. guys in the sheriffs office.
and i am not to cheap you fool, i keep this stuff in its own box and not into my personal away from work.
And you should grow up, you cant WHINE ABOUT ZIMMERMAN being a watchman when watch men have agree to be one.
so since it is known he was not-- whats your excuse now for his actions.
cj
You should tell everyone in the HOA that voted to have a NWP GZ was not the person they accepted to lead the NWP. They will be quite surprised.
KPM
YOUR A FOOL, THE TWIN LAKES RETREAT HAS CLEARLY STATED THAT ZIMMERMAN DOES NOT REPRESENT THEM --
so again get over yourself. sheesh!!!
cj
How did TW come to have a NWP?
And who was decided to lead the NWP?
Your copy and paste about the insurance company is irrelevant and well after the fact.
Fool.
KPM58
here ONCE AGAIN where you miss the dam boat-- this shows how young you are or just how your way in over head.
so heres the lesson.
the reason this insurance copy and paste is so important is because IT PROVES THAT ZIMMERMAN was not associated with any thing that makes the insurance company responsible for his actions. Because he wasn't employed by twin lakes, he wasn't under contract with twin lakes and he wasn't registered as a SPD watch captain that had a binder of any kind with twin lakes.
So again zimmerman made choices that was all his and not covered under any group and being a concerned citizen he went over board and will now cost him years of his life.
cj
Pull your head out of your ass and go read the records, Zimmerman was on his way to Target that night, he wasnt on watch, he has a CCW and has every right to carry his gun just in case he meets up with a gangbanging thug like Martin.
STEVE
put your nose back on your face and stay out of grown folks business.
your lover KPM----058 raised the issue of him representing the SPD watch program, thats not true, so again try not to hop the fence with out knowing whats on the other side.
sheesh
And dip@!$%#, just think if he would have went to target, then you couldnt make your self look like a fool day in and day out.
and heres where your stupid theroy will doom him and post after post makes you look foolish, a CCW allows a person to PROTECT THEMSELVES from great bodily harm or someone else.
it does not give him or anyone the authority to follow, confront, or enter into a confrontation that didn't have to occur when the abilty for the person KNOWING THEY HAVE A DEADLY WEAPON leaves a place of safety, because thats the most important benefit of being a permit holder.
again stevie , normal people who hold permits dont EVER try to put themselves in harms way, but your buddy didnt care about that, because he is they personality type that ENJOYS KNOWING he has his gun to give himself some confidence.
because again, going to target vs following a black kid that has not done anything zimmerman can tell the police that martin did, seems a bit more of smarter move. But keep thinking the way you do stevie.
Past actions, and public posted communications are completely relevant to show character and personality.
Any defense attorney in the world would ask for what is being asked for in this case.
The Martin family was quick to jump on any and all past information about Zimmerman.
It's a two way street.
The hearing is over. The defense gets Trayvon Martin's school records,. twitter and Facebook accounts. They'll go back to court if twitter and/or Facebook resists. Courts have stated that twitter and Facebook are like writing on a wall. Under case law, the victim's reputation is also an issue; did he have a propensity for violence, ill will, hatred?
The "girlfriends twitter and Facebook accounts can be subpoenad.
GZ's medical record will be reviewed by the judge in chambers and she'll tell them what is relevant and what is not.
Crump spoke and has been ordered to be deposed to answer questions about the recorded statement of the "girlfriend", who recorded it and its chain of custody. Crump admitted it was on speaker phone and there were others in the room: Crump has ten days to provide the names of those in the room during the call.
There's more but the next court date is 10/26/12.
I'm very interested to hear DeeDee's testimony. She's a bit of a wildcard in this case.
He statement to law enforcement weeks later were already released. In question was her first statement under Crump.
Dee Dee testimony will end up freeing Zimmerman. In her testimony to the prosecutor she had said that Trayvon Martin was just about home. The fight and shooting ended up happening 27 yards from Zimmerman's car and 70 yards from where he was staying. This shows that he came back and attacked Zimmerman.
Considering there is no proof of where Zimmerman's vehicle was parked that night, due to the fact his wife came and took it home before the police documented where it was, I'm amazed you know how far the shooting was from it.
"Just about home" is a relative term.
Just about home? From the store? 70 yards is just about home from the store. Why would he tell her he was just about home from Zimmerman's car?
A few nights ago, as I was walking home from work (8 blocks), my son called. I told him I was "just about home". In actual distance it would have been roughly 420 feet--a few 50-foot home lots, 2 100-foot lots, and a street. That's 140 yards. 70 yards sure sounds like "just about home" in my book.
DeeDee could very wellbe a problem for the prosecution, it almost sounds like she isnt telling all she knows, obviously she has been coached by Crump, but theres a big difference between saying something in an interview and saying it court under oath.
is George being coached? Ya think...
There is nothing in Travon's school records or his Facebook account that would shed any light on why Zimmerman shot an unarmed teenager. This is just another delay of Zimmerman's attorney, to make the public believe that there is some information included in these records which he claims would be very relevant to their case. These two individuals had no knowledge of one another before the shooting, so what could possibly be so very, very relevant. Regardless of what was said by Travon on his Facebook account or what happened to him at school, none of that would be relevant to Zimmerman's shooting of an unarmed teenager. If any records need to be gotten, they should be Zimmerman's prior police records and his medical information, both are relevant to the case.
For the sake of argument, what if Martin's school records show that he was given in-school detention three times for jumping and beating up other students in the school parking lot? Or that on a rainy night, he was caught trying to break into the school building?
I have no clue what his records say, but it is possible that they contain a window into the types of behaviors Martin exhibited when annoyed or angry. If so, it's relevant. Because Zimmerman's description of events includes Martin jumping him and beating him, whether Martin's history indicates it was even in his nature to behave that way is relevant. If he has a lily white record, Zimmerman wasted his time today.
Saint George (aka George Zimmerman) AIN'T NO SAINT! He has a record that includes domestic violence and two runins with the law-- one including assault on a police officer.
So what does that have to do with this case except to show that Saint George is prone to violence. Assaulting a police officer is more violent that getting suspended from school. But Trayvon doesn't have a retired judge for a father and papa dear can pay to get that stuff swept under the carpet.
If Trayvon was a real hothead, I'm sure we would have previously heard more about significant discipline or referrals to juvenile court, based on how schools respond to events these days. And "angry or annoyed" is not quite the same emotion as feeling freaked out because you are being stalked. . . . just thinking, why would Z have reached in his pocket for his cell phone? Why would he not have still had it and been on the phone with the dispatcher to announce he had a description of his "suspect"? And what explanation has he ever given for concluding that the kid must be "on drugs"?
The best explanation I can come up with is that he wanted to hang up from his conversation with the dispatcher for a couple of reasons. He had already indicated that he was concerned because he didn't know where TM was, and that TM might hear him whispering his home address. I think he wanted to be able to proceed quietly back to his truck - to sneak back, and not be making noise by talking in case TM was looking for him. Also, I believe he was carrying a flashlight at the same time - or at least at one point was trying to get it to come on - and he might have felt like it would be better if he didn't have both hands full (his cell and his flashlight) as he walked along... so he got off the phone.
GZ has a long history of calling the police immediately whenever he saw anything suspicious. A very long history. I think it was probably second nature to him to go for the phone to make contact with the police as his lifeline.
Suddenly, a guy he deemed suspicious enough to call in about was walking towards him and asking him if he had a problem. He (GZ) knew the police were probably quite close, and may have even been thinking a speed dial call to 9-11 would scare TM off.
I can understand TM being freaked out if he thought he was being stalked, but prior to the shooting, here is what we know...
GZ had made repeated calls to law enforcement; some of them panned out and the police got there in time, sometimes they didn't. Just the week prior, a very scary break-in had occurred and GZ's actions saved the day.
GZ didn't leave his house *on* watch duty that night. He was just going to Target. He pulled over in front of the clubhouse when he saw a stranger-to-the-neighborhood that matched the general description of the thieves that had plagued the neighborhood walking around looking in windows in the rain. And again, keep in mind - at *this* point, it's just a routine call. GZ has made many similar calls in the past over legitimate issues. The guy was in his upper teens, wearing a hoodie and baggie jeans, alone, walking behind the rows of condos, etc. GZ said at that time that he wondered if the person he was observing might be on drugs, because they were just meandering around behind the row of houses, looking in windows, and not in a big hurry despite the fact that they were getting wet from the rain. They didn't seem to be *going* someplace - they just seemed aimless.
TM displayed a lot of confidence to GZ when he approached his vehicle and then, like a rooster, circled it a time or two while GZ talked on the phone. He didn't know if GZ was talking to his girlfriend or his uncle or the police, but he wasn't afraid of GZ. And GZ, while not in fear of his life, found it disconcerting and gutsy.
Based on GZ's commentary in the recorded 911 calls before anybody knew a shooting was about to take place, TM's behavior did not sound like that of someone who was freaking out from a stalking.
TM was, if the girlfriend is to believed, virtually back at his dad's girlfriend's place at one point, but for whatever reason, he didn't choose to go on in. He *returned* towards the truck. That is 'known' because the shooting occurred much closer to the truck than the dad's girlfriend's place. If somebody started out in California, told a friend on the phone that they were almost to Maine, and then their body was found in a pool of blood in Arizona a week later, one would have to assume that they turned around and headed back for California.
I almost wonder if TM didn't realize GZ had gotten out of the truck at all, and if TM was sneaking back to see if "that guy in the truck' was still sitting there by the clubhouse, and he happened upon GZ on his way back, startling both of them, and TM spoke first - "Do you have a problem with me?"
un armed teenager?
so the unarmed teenager who sucker punched the drunk white guy unconcious in Baltimore on St Pats day before assisting in removal of the man's wallet, keys, watch and clothes was just an unarmed teenager?
Or the unarmed teenager who emerged from a gang of 5 on the Philedelphia alley before sucker punching the white school teacher into unconsciousness on the curb was just an unarmed teenager?
Or the unarmed teenager who emerged from a car of 4 others to sucker punch a college kid walking in an alley with two coeds in St Cloud MN was just an unarmed teenager? That white college kid then died.
How are white guys supposed to defend themselves from sucker punches by unarmed black teens?
Explain to me how any of this white men deserved to be sucker punched by unarmed black teens.. oh.. and tell me how to explain to the family of the college kid why their son needed to die...
If someone gets caught in a crime and they have no priors, does it prove they did nothing wrong in the past, or, they just didn't get caught. One crime can make a criminal. May-be you would feel batter if it was 4 or 5. Two run-ins with the law may amount to acusations and not crimes. It should be a crime to be-lie-ve some of your 'truths'.
WTF-why there's falacy
If the point is criminal records, then check with the police - not the school. Oh - you already did that and found nothing! So, the point of getting school records is not about "THUGg-ishness" or criminal behavior, the police had already ruled that out when they ran a check for criminal background back when they brought the body in (back on Feb 26), there was nothing - they (SPD) checked and you can be sure George's lawyer checked again .... so, what's left? An Internet search, maybe? Nothing there either? Nada, then... guess its time to go fishing!!!!
Things must be getting desperate over in George's wonderland. This request is but the dying embers of the bright fire of George's chances of being a Hero.
School records are not crime records - just as school infractions are not governed by the same rules as criminal infractions are judged. A school administrator issues edicts... they follow no rules of what is evidence or not. Just as often as they get the right kid - there are likely many other students who are caught in the net, and punished because the Teachers go by the "it takes two to fight", totally disregarding the fact that one may be the sole initiator - the other kid was just playing defence.
I remember jr. high - one kid took an immediate dislike to me for no apparent reason. On one occasion, while walking in hall - he grabbed the pocket of a shirt I was wearing, ripping the pocket off. I got him in a headlock and drug him to he principals office (OK- was nerd, I didn't want to fight - I just wanted the crap to stop)... anyway, the principle decided we both were guilty. Nothing I could say would change his mind and nothing the kids who witnessed the incident could either. So my choice was "spats" or go home, be suspended.
Was that fair? Would that stand-up in court? No -but in the fiefdom of school that unilateral type of ruling is common. good thing was Mom came to school to pick me up.She spoke wih the guidance counselor and decided that sweeping the gym would be enough to clear the issue. I could fight the principal .... but mom's rules are to be obeyed, to this day, obviously - it still bothers me that she didn't side with me.
Kids, ar kids - because they are emotional. It not a crime to be a teen.
What does Martin's grades and school records have to do with anything? Is ZImmerman arguing that there would be anything in there that Martin deserved to get murdered for?
The school records would contain disciplinary actions and/or behavioral problems notated if any. Fighting for example. Attitude problems. Accusations against him.
Here is a quote from George Zimmerman's 2005 MySpace page (which O'Mara verified as being George's page)--
and
Wow. If anyone sounds like a punk ass, it's George. What were the ATF charges about?
YAHTC,
I see you are bringing up Zimmerman's past social media posts. I assume you agree with the judge's decision to release Martin's records?
yacht
Zimmermans media pages were hacked by Black Panthers, just like you say Martins were hacked by White Supremacists.
THUG LIFE HAS CONSEQUENCES.
So does being a troll with no relevant points to make.
CULHEATH- So does thinking that your judge, jury and executioner in this or any other case.!!!!
So does being a troll with no relevant points to make.
skrewdworld:: Isn't that what 99.5% of the people in here are doing-- they know that Zimmerman is innocent and will go free. He will have his day-- or days-- in court and I hope they bring out Saint George's record of domestic violence and two confrontations with police officers, one being an assault of a police officer.
Susie, GZ's brushes with the law are a matter of public record. Everything he has ever done has been fodder for the media for months. His records are also part of why they arrested him. There's nothing to hope about. Everybody and his dog have already been allowed to spin all of his info anyway they wanted to.Now you want to keep bringing up his past record bring up all of the truth about that past record. The domestic violence charges were dropped, the assault on an officer was years ago when a friend appeared to be in a struggle with another who happened to be a cop who was notin uniform and he never went to jail for that. Yeah he screwed up a few times. Many people do and are not the heinous monsters people like you want to make them out to be. Just when it's convenient for you, right??? Trayvon may NOT be the little angel he's madae out to be, wouldn't that jsut burst your little bubble?????
One relevant factor is that of time.
GZ had a few brushes with the law, however, they were 7+ years ago, if I understand correctly. I am not aware of any recent behavior that was problematic. Also - and I'm not excusing bad behavior - GZ's incidents occurred when he wasn't that much older than TM was, or at least within about four years of TM's age. His crimes all had to do with relationships. One was with the undercover policeman who was arresting someone GZ knew for underage drinking, and apparently the underage person was resisting arrest. GZ just walked in and saw what appeared to be a man accosting his under-21 friend (I believe GZ was about 21 himself at the time). The policeman was undercover and had not identified himself as being law enforcement, and as a result, Zimmerman was not ultimately charged.
The other problem - that of domestic violence - was a situation in which it sounds like he and his ex-girlfriend tended to rough each other up. Stupid, absolutely. Wrong? Yep. Criminal? It doesn't sound like it - at least not a 'big' crime since he was charged with a misdemeanor.
What it looks like to me is that he was pretty dumb when it came to his relationships when he was young. Had the altercation with TM happened eight years ago, when GZ was in the midst of his 'stupid years,' I would be more likely to assume he was the instigator.
If there is information on TM's FB page from when he was in 6th grade, I don't think that would be relevant. That's a third of his lifetime ago. But I'd say anything written within a couple of years of his death is relevant.
The evidence of TM's behavior will, I presume, cast a light on the then-present-day TM.
To me, the thug was the creepy guy stalking the "guy who looked out of place." The thug went hunting for a trophy to boost his inferior ego. The creepy thug scared the victim who ultimately turned on the thug in defence of his life. The thug never identified himself.
Then when the victim who tried to defend himself from the unknown assailant gets shot and killed...it is suddenly the thug who cries self-defence?
I think the judge & jury will see through this farce and allow the little cowardly thug share a cell with Sandusky. Sooner or later the thug will get his.
If I were Zimmerman's atty, I would want access to much more than Martin's school and social networking records. I would want transcripts of text conversations from his phone, as well.
I think it would be reasonable for the judge to look at such evidence first, and to then only turn over that which has the potential to be relevant. Nobody needs to see any private conversations between him and girlfriends, etc.. But if there are any texts in which he brags to a friend - or girlfriend - about punching somebody, beating somebody up, etc., that information would support Zimmerman's contention that Martin came back and found him and initiated the physical contact.
The heart of Zimmerman's contention is that he got out of his vehicle so he could maintain awareness of Martin's location, so that he could tell the police where he was when they arrived. He also contends that he began to walk back to his vehicle when the dispatcher indicated that following Martin was 'not necessary.' Zimmerman contends that on his way back to his vehicle, he encountered Martin, who had returned to that general area, and that Martin initiated a verbal - and then a physical - confrontation with him.
Is it true? I do not know. I was not there.
But everybody who is accused of a crime in America gets to lay out a defense on their own behalf. That is Zimmerman's. Martin's family and the prosecutor have been portraying Martin as a good student, college-bound, etc., and that it would have been out of character for him to do as Zimmerman alleges. Zimmerman, in his defense, may need to show that Martin had a 'rough' side, too.
If Martin was, in fact, violent, Martin's parents and his girlfriend will not be likely to reveal that. The best evidence of his character and nature would be from Martin's own words (twitter and FB) and from written reports from disinterested parties (school administrators) from prior to Martin's death.
Just makes sense to me that Zimmerman's people would want to see them.
What doesn't make sense is that the judge seems eager to release Martin's records to the defense without reviewing them first, but feels the need to have to review Zimmerman's record so she can determine what the prosecution gets. Makes me wonder.
Because there are privacy laws around medical records. Any health issues NOT related to this trial wouldn't be allowed into any kind of public view. Facebook accounts etc. don't have that type of privacy issues surrounding them.
@Clark:
Medical records and other health records are different under the rule of law, because they are protected information involving doctor and patient interactions, as well as other health care provider and patient interactions, which among other things explicitly are protected by the federal HIPAA Privacy Rule and generally are considered to be the same as client and attorney privileged communications, hence the need for separate review by the judge . . .
http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/index.html
http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/summary/index.html
School records and online social media communications also have certain protections, but their protections are not so strong as doctor and patient protections or attorney and client protections . . .
It also is useful to observe that while the judge granted access to Trayvon Martin's school records and social media communications, as well as social media communications of the girl who claimed to be on the cellphone with Martin, the judge made restrictions on the defense attorneys relative to keeping the information private, which in the grand scheme of everything indicates that the judge allowed the defense to examine the information with certain restrictions but at present has not ruled on whether any of the information actually can be used in court, if there is a trial, which is very important because it provides the first indisputable clue that the judge is going to be very conscious and diligent with respect to avoiding any possibility of being biased, which is outstandingly excellent for the defense . . .
And to be as clear as possible, by allowing the defense to examine Trayvon Martin's school records and social media communications and interactions, as well as the social media communications and interactions of the girl who claims to have been on the cellphone with Martin, the judge at present has not ruled on the admissibility of any of the information, since admissibility is an entirely different matter . . .
But the most significant bit of information at present is the fact that Circuit Judge Debra Nelson is making a diligent and prudent effort to be a neutral judicial referee, which (a) is what judges are supposed to do and (b) is stellar in every respect for the defense, for sure . . .
For sure! :-)
BeCee:: So it is OK to reveal Trayvon's past problems and they have to hush up Saint Geroge's past confrontations with the police and his domestic violence (which is on record).
Why are Trayvon's past records so much more important that Saint George's past records. Oh that is right-- Saint George is a "white boy" and his father is a retired judge. So he has two things in his favor. And Trayvon was a black teenager whose parents both work for a living. Those are strikes against him and his family.
And don't call me racist. I went to school with blacks, whites, hispanics, orientals-- lived next door to a black family on one side, an Italian family on the other. That was back in the days when children showed respect for adults, people showed respect for others. Nowdays that ain't happening.
First GZ is not"white", just labeled the "white hispanic" so that this thing can be made into a racial issue. If you read, then perhaps you remember that GZ also has some black in his heritage as well. And sorry but you are a racist and you'd feel better if you admitted it!
Susie, I don't believe GZ's brushes have been hushed up. Actually, the opposite is true. His brushes with the legal system were when he was in his early 20's - not much older than Trayvon, but unlike Trayvon, he was not a minor. Therefore, there are public records that relate to GZ's issues, and they have been made public.
TM's brushes with the law are not public, because he was a minor. I don't know what the school did with the baggie that had marijuana residue, but I assume the school had to report drug possession to the police. Since he's a minor, it wouldn't have been in the paper and part of the public record.
I could care less about race. I just think that people, according to our laws, are innocent until proven guilty. GZ is going to have to defend his actions, and his defense as we know it is that TM attacked him.
I think the GZ of eight years ago would've had a very hard time convincing a judge that he was not a hot head capable of going off half-cocked and shooting somebody as an act of bravado. But I don't see the current GZ as having the same tendencies as the younger version. I don't think he's perfect or anything, but it's been quite a few years since run-ins with the police were part of his life.
TM, it sounds like, was in the prime of his brushes-with-the-police phase. Doesn't mean he would've been that way the rest of his life or anything, but it does sound like he was kind of a macho chest-puffer as a high school kid. Is it *possible* that he thought GZ looked like a fat guy he could take, and he took the opportunity thinking he could brag about it later? "Dude, this Mexican guy was checkin' me out and I went up to him and I was like, 'You got a problem with me, &(&#(^)&(&?' and he didn't say nothin' so I showed him nobody messes with me."
My assumption is that that's what was happening. I don't think TM intended to kill GZ. I doubt TM had the maturity to really understand the gravity of a head injury. One of my children suffered a serious brain injury after hitting his head on a concrete sidewalk, and amazingly, didn't have a single scratch. The damage was all on the inside of the skull, not the outside, and assuming he was fine, I didn't take him to the Dr. when he should have gone because I thought he was fine since there was no blood or scratch or goose egg.
Anyway... I assume TM just wanted to beat GZ up for bragging rights with his buddies and girlfriend. I don't think he intended to kill him, but I also don't think he fully appreciated the kind of damage he could do to GZ's brain, and don't think he considered that GZ might have a gun.
I think GZ *did* know he was about to end up with a brain injury. I think that had GZ pulled his gun out and thrown it, he knew if TM got hold if it that he - GZ - probably would not have ended up alive, because TM was obviously a much better fighter.
Those are just my assumptions. They might change after the trial when all the evidence is known.
Sounds like a smoke screen to me. Whether Trayvon was a saint or drug dealing miscreant is pretty illrelevant. All accounts I have heard, Trayvon was walking down the street, not dealing drugs. Zimmerman called in a suspcious person, was told by the dispatcher that police were notified and to not approach. Regardless, Zimmerman had no reason to approach Trayvon and if he hadn't the fight that lead to Trayvon's death would not have insued. Even if records show that Travon was a really bad person, Zimmerman would have not known this and still should not have pursued. Wanted to watch him from a distance, fine. He chose to approach and was arnmed when he did so.
What is your basis for believing that Zimmerman disregarded the dispatcher and continued chasing Trayvon?
I ask because, about a minute after being told to stop following, Zimmerman is reluctant to give his home address because "he doesn't know where this guy is."
If Zimmerman had continued following Trayvon, wouldn't Zimmerman know where he was?
hoosier, I understand what you are saying, but the most important thing you said is, "[by]all accounts I have heard..." and then you mention that those accounts have said that all Martin was doing was walking down the street. Then you say it would have been fine for Zimmerman to watch Martin from a distance, but not to pursue him.
That's actually Zimmerman's contention - that he got out of his vehicle as Martin turned to go down a sidewalk between the backs of the condos so he could maintain visual awareness. "Pursue" implies that he was going after Martin with the intention of catching him. Zimmerman claims that he was *not* pursuing him, and that when he lost visual contact and turned to return to his vehicle, Martin appeared from a cut-through in the condo rows and spoke to him first. I believe that the interview that was conducted with the girl who was speaking to him on the phone at the time revealed the same thing - that Martin asked Zimmerman something to the effect of, "What's your problem?" (that isn't a direct quote, but it was something of that nature).
The audio of Zimmerman prior to the altercation, when he was speaking with the dispatcher, reveals that he was scared and did not want to say his address aloud in case Martin was nearby and could hear him. To me, it wouldn't make sense that he would be too scared to even utter his address aloud, but then moments later when he was off the phone, that he would 'pursue' Martin and initiate a fight.
Anyway... it's for the jury to decide, but if there is evidence in Martin's behavior records that suggest he had a history of beating people up, Zimmerman does deserve to have access to that history as part of his defense.
Do you not pay attention!! Taryvon ran off, zimmerman headed back to his vehicle. Trayvon circled back around and attacked zimmerman back at zimmermans vehicle. He could of ran home but he came around to kick some ass, bad decision.
There is no reason to believe the story Z is telling about the confrontation and when it happened. Hopefully there were witnesses to this crime and it will come out in court. Saying Trayvon wanted to "kick some ass" is pure make believe from someone's mind at this point.
There was a witness to part of the fight patcee. A witness saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman, punching him.
Key word: part. Another witness claims to have seen Zimmerman on top. The biggest thing is that no one saw how it all started.
There is no witness who stated they saw Zimmerman on top. Please post a link.
Missy does not have to she is from Chicago....they make sh*t up as they go along.....look at Obama.
It was witness 18.
That witness said they saw Zimmerman walking away from the fight after the gunshot. She said she saw two people on the ground. She said she thought a large man was on top but couldn't be sure. Trayvon was taller and wearing two hoodies, she could have very well believed he was the large man.
Here's a link to her interview: http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-18-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/
People believe what they think they see. If, in her mind she finds it obsurd that the weaker of the two would be on top, then she will 'see' it to best suit her analysis of what is happening.
If you have come to a conclusion already, prepare to be wrong. MissC, what's in a name?
WTF-when the facts-lie
Witness 18 is obviously confused, her testimony wont mean squat.
The amount of time from when Zimmerman first called the dispatcher until Officer Smith arrived on scene was 7 minutes.
TM shouldnt have pounded GZ head on the sidewalk, nor broken his nose. TM could have just walked away OR better yet called the police. So you TM supporters, you overlook the fact TM assaulted GZ.
I probably would have beat his ass too if he was following me for no reason. GZ would not have been assaulted if he stayed in his car instead of instigating the confrontation. Of course who's to say he was even assaulted?? I can beat my self up too and make a story up before police show up. Hopefully they will find him guilty and he can get assaulted in prison....then he can recognize what assault really is!
Michelle
The police were there 20 seconds after the shooting, but Im sure you could convince a jury that Zimmerman beat himself up in those 20 seconds. Why dont you people read the evidence before making ridiculous posts.
Steve, actually between two to three minutes passed before the police arrived on the scene of the shooting.
Misscreant
Agreed on the police arriving.. however witnesses were WATCHING George seconds after the gunshot. The first saw him "pinning" trayvon down and "disarming" him. The next one arrived with a flashlight, was asked if they were the police and discussed calling them. The third on the scene was the actual responding officer at about 2 minutes and 20 seconds.. there was NOT time for George to cause his own injuries without someone seeing him do so.
Missy hates non blacks, she will fight until the end to cova a brotha.....
I was simply correcting Steve on the time it took the police arrive on scene, nothing more.
panhandletown, there is no need to personally attack me simply because I don't agree with you.
Misscreant
I was doing nothing more than accounting for the time between the shot and the police arriving, nothing more.
you only ever see one side, it limits you.
1917:20 - Shot fired; screams from Zimmerman cease
1917:40 - Officer T. Smith arrives on scene
1919:43 - Officer T. Smith locates and places Zimmerman in custody.
And a witness was with Zimmerman within seconds after the shot, so your theory of Zimmerman causing his own injuries seems pretty ridiculous.
Well, then, there is nothing to discuss, because there is no evidence that either one of those things took place.
1917:20 - Shot fired; screams from Zimmerman cease
1917:40 - Officer T. Smith arrives on scene
1919:43 - Officer T. Smith locates and places Zimmerman in custody.
Can you read time stamps? Shot fired at 1917:20. Smith arrives at Twin Lakes gates twenty seconds later. It then takes him two minutes and 3 seconds to locate Zimmerman and the scene of the shooting. Therefore, it took 2 minutes and 23 seconds from the time that the shot was fired for a policeman to be at the location of the shooting.
You need to also include in the 2 minutes and 23 seconds the time it took for for the officer to access what is going on and to place GZ in custody.
Upon arriving at the scene, Officer Timothy Smith said he saw a white male in a red jacket and blue jeans in between the buildings, and saw a Black male wearing a gray hooded sweatshirt laying face down in the grass. He says he asked the white male (later identified as George Zimmerman) if he had seen the subject, presumably who shot the Black male. Then Zimmerman told Officer Smith that he shot the Black male and that he was still armed. Officer Smith cuffed Zimmerman and he removed the gun and holster from inside Zimmerman’s waistband. Smith noted that Zimmerman’s back was wet and appeared to be covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Officer Smith also said that Zimmerman was bleeding from his nose and the back of his head.
It took him 2 minutes to take Zimmerman into custody, he was on the scene 20 seconds after the shooting, not exactly enough time for Zimmerman to beat himself up, especially with a witness watching, not that a jury would ever believe that kind of ridiculous crap anyway.
When you have no defense, attack the victim.
Zimmerman is guilty as hell and is clutching at straws.
Maybe Zimmerman is guilty, but the prosecution is going to have to show intent and motive to prove 2nd degree murder. This smells more like manslaughter to me.
That does not change the fact that Zimmerman is entitled to any information that may aide in his defense.
Well, let's see:
"These f***ing punks! They always get away" shows motive. Motive was to prevent this one from getting away.
"Oh, shyte, he's running" uttered immediately before Zimmerman leaves his vehicle with a loaded 9mm weapon, a round in the chamber, and no safety shows intent.
Then add in all the evidence that does not support George's claim of the incident playing out the way he has claimed in several contradictory statements.
I think the prosecution has this one covered.
Giving that GZ called 9-11, I would say his motive was a suspicious person and his intent was to keep an eye on the suspicious person until the police arrived.
kpm
I wonder what a jury is going to think when they find out that Martin was caught with a screwdriver and a bag of womens jewelry in an "unauthorized area" of the school (girls locker room)? Maybe they will think he was a thief and was actually casing the place when Zimmerman saw him. And the school records arent going to be just from his last high school, but from his previous high school, which is Miama Carol HS and described as:
In the same article, 20-year-old Robert Williams, who had attended Carol City for a period, described it as "a ghetto place. The building, the teachers, the kids — it's got this real ghetto atmosphere."
Im sure Poor Little Trayvon didnt pick up any bad habits there, like being a gangbanger.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_Carol_City_High_School
Get ready for some LA style riots when this case is over! I'll just sit back with a six pack and watch Florida burn on CNN.
California has strict gun laws and Florida does not ;-) I think a riot will be stopped in very short order.
I think this case will not be decided until long after the presidential elections. Should Romney end up the next president I think that the climate of America will change alot. I think there will be entire groups of people that might think without Obama as pres it would be alot more difficult to get away with starting riots, violence, burnings theft etc..
Coors Lite? I'm more of a Miller High Life cat myself.
Obviously DICK-NC has not a clue as to how redneck justice works.....smooth swift and instant....the brothers be bringin' a saturday night special to a Striker Street Sweeper party.....they know the score and will settle.
Since one side of the story DOES have him portrayed as the perp, then it is surly fair to have it all out in court and let a Jury decide.
I'm sure we are going to find out he was a perfect angel, probably a straight A student. I'll bet he even went to church on Sundays and volunteered to help the less fortunate.
Of course the defense doesn't want the truth out. But any bad history of Zimmerman is relevant.
That would be because Zimmerman killed someone and Martin did not.
Martin was a junior in high school, math was his favorite subject, and he earned A's and
B's. He played on the high school football team, was studying to be
an engineer, was interested in flying, and attended flying school
part time, he had no criminal record nor any history of violence.
nicebike are you high like TrayGONE...got blunt? You type sound like you are....dumb and high....
All this info is not relevant.
The victim tried to put distance between himself and his killer. A "thug" mentality would not apply as the victim did not aggressively approach the killer. It was the other way around. When the victim felt threaten enough he attempted to defend himself but was no match for a gun. When the killer was bested by the victim, the killer shot the victim, the entire situation was perpetrated by the killer who instigated the encounter.
Stand your ground does not apply as the killer was invading the victims space and civil liberties. The victim acted in self defense.
Bottom line, the killer hunted this teenager. Persued him after advised not to do so. Approached the teenager felt threatened and defended himself. Zimmerman (killer) got beat up and shot the victim.
The fact he is attempting to go this route is suspect in itself.
The shooting happened 27 yards from GZ's vehicle and 70 yards from the place TM was staying at. This proves that GZ did not continue chasing him. Dee dee said that TM was just about home. This proves TM came back and attacked GZ.
If you were coming home from the store and talking to your wife would it not be strange to say that you were almost home being 70 yards from your house. Surely he wasn't telling his girlfriend he was almost home from Zimmerman's car. Think about it.
Gary, you have no evidence that he didt follow the dispatchers suggestion that they " Didnt need him to do that". when told they didnt need him to do that he said ok, there is NOTHING that shows he pursued lil traygone. But it doesnt matter what the evidence says, all you GZ haters have him convicted. I hope they change the venue to POLK COUNTY, id love to be one of the jurors to Aquit GZ. But he may be even better off if he gets a jury from Pinellas County, Nah change that, they are backwards in Pinellas, they aquitted Casey Anthony
Andrew, so where did you get that GZ was 27 yards away from his car? The car was moved before the police arrived. The location of the vehicle has never been released!! Make up shyte much? And as to DeeDee statement that Trayvon was almost home - less than a football field away is almost home. Please try to be accurate in your posts otherwise you look like just as much of a liar as GZ.
That would be a pretty neat trick, who moved it in the 20 seconds it took the cops to get there?
Zimmerman did not tell the police he was in a vehicle, and they assumed he was on foot. Zimmerman then called his wife from the police station, and had her pick up the truck and take it home. Only after that did Zimmerman tell police he was in a vehicle.
Also, between two and three minute passed before the police arrived at the scene of the shooting.
I have a great idea, how about letting the courts decide?
Well duh pan - that is exactly what will happen. This is a discussion forum not a courtroom. Geez - are you so delusional that you think these discussions will be part of the trial?
miscreant
If the cops didnt know he was in a vehicle, how could they have (according to the Martinites) told him not to get out of his vehicle? You Martinites crack me up, you dont read the police reports or witness statements but claim youre experts on what really happened because you read it on a Poor Little Trayvon website. Never mind the evidence, whitey smoked blackie and now whitey gotta pay, no matter what the evidence says.
The dispatcher, knew he was in the car - but the cops - on the scene did not. as noted, the came upon he scene with George not at the place the dispatcher relayed to them in the first conversation when George told them Trayvon approached him .... while he was sitting in his vehicle, near the club house.
George never offered any explaination or correction to the on-scene officers until he after he called his wife to pick up his vehicle.
He's a Crafty little Dickens, ain't he! Just don't try to read anything into his momentary memory lapse... that would be prejudicial.
Now hold on there ... Didn't George say that he turned his back and as walking back to his car? So, at some point he must have been further away from his car - based on his on testimony - than the 70 yrd / 20 yrd split you are quoting?
Based on the same testimony ... he stated that Trayvon came running out of the bushes. How much distance was covered - if he was running and George was already walking...
Not to worry- maybe George was confused - after, things were happening so fast, its possible that George covered much more ground that he thought he did.
Still... you might think - that something (else) about the distance/time line thing - just doesn't pass the smell test.
Why is it so hard to understand that Zimmerman has a right to a defense and is innocent until proven guilty.
It may or may not be irrelevant, but Trayvons' past is fair game.
maobama, if you want to use that logic then do you not agree that zimmermans past is also fair game with respect the prosecution?
EVerything and anything about Z has already been put out there for all of the world to see. And alot of that info should NOT have been fair game but it didn't seem to matter to the media and many others. This story has been so skewed from day one. Hence the new term, never used before this case..."White Hispanic".
Ok this comment is to everyone:
I'm a seriously sick... Of all these people coming on msn and leaving a bull sh-t ass comment regarding Treyvon and how he should have not been suspended!!!
Look!!! What ever happened in Martin's life prior to this incident is irrelavent!!! It doesn't prove anything. One thing though!!!
Would Martin still be able to wake up in the morning and go to sleep at night (as usual) if Zimmerman didn't initiate the whole intire situation? Yes! Martin would... And he would have still been alive...
So what if Martin was suspended... So what if he smoked weed! So what if he wasn't that well in school... So fu-k'n what!!! None of this has anything to do with Zimmerman killing Martin. Martin assulted Zimmerman because Martin was using self defense on this dum ass stranger named Zimmerman!!!
This judge is horrible... I'm sure if the shoes we're on her foot... And this was her son/daughter who got shot... Would she want her past son/daughter's records released to the killer... Shame!!!
I'm scared.... And I'm scared of the direction this whole situation is going in. The whole united states is watching... And I feel that if this trial doesn't go the way it's suppose to... A very big outbreak will happen soon after just like in the Rodney King incedent...
I hope that doesn't happen..., but the tention in th air is really bad!!! I feel it, and people where I live can feel it as well... And lot of people are talking about this case around the world and on the streets and around the nieghboorhood...
I understand Martin assulted Zimmerman... Which a lot of people say... Shouldn't have happened... But maybe Martin was scared and defending himself against a stranger!!!
No one knows what was going through Treyvons mind at the time when Zimmerman was following him... No one knows how he felt inside knowing he's being followed!!!
No one knows if he felt in danger or in fear!!!
Because he's dead!!!! He can't tell us right now because he's in a better place... But Zimmerman can tell us how he felt....
This whole situation is wrong! It's unfare!!!! The cops did a poor job!!!! The system should be ashamed of themselves and Zimmermans father should keep his nose out of this situation. I'm sure Zimmermans father knows how to pull all the strings and in every direction... Again... not fare!!!!
I wonder what Martin is thinking right now as he surveys this whole outcome and what's happening in court...
Zimmerman... you better understand that god is watching you and he was watching you the night when you chose to take martins life.... Your already going down the wrong direction... just make sure your telling the facts... Again...because gods watching...
Zimmerman needs rot in a cell for the rest of his life... Maybe he'll get skinny'er!!!! Lol...
Question...why isn't Zimmerman still not locked up.... He should be still in jail until proven not-guilty or guilty... I know if someone decide to shoot someone over here in Los Angeles.... Psssss Please!!! You'd get life....no questions asked no sorry's no nothin'... I still don't see why Zimmerman gets to see daylight....
maobama:: The record of a teenager who was a problem in school is more relavent than Saint George's record of domestic violence and two confrontations with police, one of which resulted in Saint George assaulting a policeman? Boy you have your thoughts screwed up big time. You probably are suffering from Romnesia. If that is your problem, as President Obama said Obamacare covers preexisting conditions-- so you are covered.
Try a little thing called "bail" which many who are accused a crime get to do to stay out of jail while on trial. IF you ever gotin trouble I don't think you'd want to give up your rights for any bail. People are "innocent until proven guilty in a court of law" and not all need to sit in jail until a verdict is lawfully rendered.
I know it doesn't accomplish much to tell idiots the same thing over and over again, but what the heck. . . "Hispanic" is used by the government to refer to people whosen ethnic origin is in any of a number of Spanish-speaking countries. It is geography and language, not race. You can be an African-American Hispanic, you can be Hispanic and also Asian (former Peruvian pres. Fujimoro), you can be Hispanic and white (such as Spanish descent). It's not new, it's not made-up. Anytime you fill out a form which includes race and ethnic information, they are in separate components of the form.
@SillyBoy2010
You fail to see the reason school records would be relevant in the case...
If they can establish a pattern of behavior highlighting anger, disrespect, phyical violence and drug use it would lend credence to the accusations that Trayvon assualted GZ.
You better be glad stupidity isn't against the law cuz you'd be serving a life sentence...
A history of violence, may indicate a pattern, but it does not have any bearing on what happend that night.
If a person is fervent about defending his privacy, personal integrity, home or unwarranted assaults against himself or his relatives - it does not mean that they would beat a dog, hit a child or rob the change out of the Poor Box at the Local Cathedral.
As a new kid in many moves - following temporary transfers in my parents careers - it takes time and tolerance to "fit in" to new schools, new neighborhoods. On occasion the teasing rose to a level which required protest. School officials may note a history of violence in a students behavior - but that is just the Black and white version of a complex set of variable. Did the assault involve 2, 3 or 4 against one? If so, it may be condensed into subject participated in a physical disturbance - without adding in the number or intensity of assault/provocation or number of assailants.
I remember seeing an on-line video, where a 50lb kid repeatedly punched, slapped and kicked an apparently "slow" kid double his size. Obviously, he was showing off for his "posse" who were memorializing his bravery on camera phones. After an agonizing 5 or 10 minutes of abuse, during which the bigger kid tried to walk away, tried to laugh it off and looked around for someone to step in with no relief.
Eventually the bigger kid body slammed the little idiot and was left alone to go on his way. The thing is - boys are idiots, and when the authorities do not do their job - you may need to do something to get away from a relentless assailant.
Watching the video, anyone could see the distress the "slow" kid was under. All he wanted to do was get away and go to class.
you tell me
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=video+big+kid+beat+by+smaller+boy+body+slam&mid=E367613B3457F978594CE367613B3457F978594C&view=detail&FORM=VIRE1
'A little knowledge is dangerous'. Speaking from the use of it, is detrimental. Attempting to influence anyone through that lack of intelligence, is futile.
Beowolf
So the few things that happened years apart in GZ's life are irrelevant in what happened that night?
Zimmermans problems were 7 years ago, now he's the neighborhood watch guy, is the jury going to take the word of the NW guy, or the Miami Gaardens gangbanging "No Limit Nigga" who is only there because he is suspended for the third time in 5 months and has a history of weed smoking and stealing.
STEVE
do you think a jury is going to TRUST the word of a ccw permit holder THAT knows that his number one responsibilty is to not PUT him self into a confrontation knowing he had a deadly weapon on him.
get over the martin information, it doesn't have weight vs the choices ZIMMERMAN MADE!!
Hey CJ - these ZIMBOTS can't seem to see anything but that their hero shot a black teenager. They will believe anything even when the evidence proves that GZ's many STORIES (6 so far) do not match with that evidence.
So far, there has been no actual evidence provided that supports any of these accusations against TM as true except that he was suspended for "possibly" having a baggie with weed residue, writing WTF on a locker, and being tardy. That sounds like a gangbanger to me - NOT!!! The other thing they do not seem to be able to grasp is that TM was not committing any crimes that night. GZ decided to play cops and robbers and profiled and shot an unarmed teenager walking home in the rain.
CONCERNED CITIZEN-5861507
Actually it seems the Martin team can only see that George shot a black teenager and is unable to see that George shot the person assaulting him causing injury and likely to cause more.
T_V says -
No, that is not all we the Martin team sees. I like the way you used one small sentence of a whole post to try to make a point. The rest of my post shows why I believe GZ was not justified in his actions.
Really? There's that SPECULATION you like to slam others for so much. You are just full of yourself and that double standard - Geez.
The idea of making a point only requires one sentence... or did you not learn about avoiding run on sentences?
Best we can tell, based not only on the situation here but OTHER fights, is that the assailant generally does not stop until they are STOPPED in a fight. George did not know when someone would arrive to stop the assault on his person. The ONLY person he had seen other than the person on top of him had gone away without intervening (probably wisely so).
Besides Trayvons fists what do you think was going through Georges mind, and would be going through yours?
NOTHING prior to the two of them meeting at the T matters. Try as you want there was NO confrontation or "situation" prior to the exchange of words at the T. Both George and "deedee" indicate that neither George or Trayvon saw each other so there was no imminent threat. Granted BOTH of them could have felt residual emotions the threat no longer existed once they separated, no longer saw each other, for over a minute and closer to two and a half. That is from a LEGAL perspective. Much like you and your neighbor HATE each other, often exchange words and stares but have not seen one and other in a day and then one or the other of you decides to throw a punch the next time you meet on the sidewalk. At the point the fight is ON. Either of you could TRY to claim that prior bad feelings/acts "started" the fight but legally in the end you are both entitled to self defense and unless there is a witness the injuries will speak as to who was winning or losing the fight.
TRUSTY
do you know how many white kids live in TWIN LAKES, do you think at any time during the course of the day to day living that POOR ZIMMERMAN had to do at the retreat, he never saw a white kid.
are you trying to suggest that zimmerman called on the punk white kids, with the skate boards or the driving to fast down his street in there daddies car, or there constant racing of there BMX bikes.
do you get it trusty, the only PERSON who made this about race was ZIMMERMAN, the fact that for once in this great country it has been confirmed by VIDEO tape at the store, and by audio by the call of DEE DEE his girlfriend that THIS BLACK KID WAS ACTUALLY NOT DOING ANYTHING ILLEGAL OR WRONG.
so TRY TO BE A GROWN UP and call it as it is, A choice by zimmerman to focus on martin because he looked like the stereotyped dressed black kid which he wanted to show he had authority over.
In any case, ZIMMERMANS CHOICES would be wrong no matter what color kid he would have acted against.
wrong is wrong trusty get over it.
SO please stop finding reasons to OFF-SET what is already clearly an issue zimmerman has, because his multiple phone calls prove it.
What kind of info will JUSTIFY Zimmermann killing Martin???
NONE, but as you can see from the comments here, white racists will hide behind anything to excuse and their hatred and to justify their criminal acts of killing black people in cold blood.
What if Travons twitter says he is going to kill this white boy that's looking at him? Would that be relevant? How about if he has texting his girlfriend and said he is going to rob this guy and get some money? Is that relevant? The statements being made such as JohnDavis2's comment that white's are just killing blacks in cold blood is pure BS.
Look at the records blacks account for 49% of all murder victims. 93% of these black victims are killed by Blacks. How is that fitting in with your BS about whites killing blacks. Black on Black crime is what is killing all of black culture. But some how Rev Sharpton and Jesse Jackson will blame the white race for that also.
Fins, i was attempting to say the same thing, but it kept disapproving my post, so ill tone it down. Over 50% of the US Prison Population is BLACK, why is that, are they all innocent and framed by whitey? Maybe its because many BLACKS are less civilized and only know how to act animalistically. Or many are lazy and wont work, but will sling dope on the corner, or stick up a store or person on a whim. IF BLACKS want to change the perception of their race, they need to change the way they act
Funny you would play the race card when neither people involved were white...
What the truth is is that if Zimmerman had been an African American and Trayvon had been white you libtards would be the first to chime in on the side of Zimmerman and calling Trayvon a racist thug getting what he deserved. A young man dying is a tragedy but demonizing GZ for what may just turn out to be self defense is just as big a travesty.
JohnDavis2--"WHITE RACISTS???" Are you kidding me. George Zimmerman is NOT white and in fact has some black heritage. SO explain to me the highly racist title he's received...."WHITE HISPANIC".
when a blackman walking down a dark street at night turns around and sees a white man coming up behind him, he feels relieved. The largest threat to a blackman is another blackman. Blacks need to clean up their own program before they start throwing the race card around.
Well JohnD, Can you dispute these facts? Racism run's both ways! I want to see what TM really looked like at age of death.
Richard C., The black and white close up photo of Martin wearing a light colored hoodie with the hood up that has been all over the media was taken roughly three weeks before his death. That is what he looked like.
Tom, Fins,freewilled,sfox and richard. A big thumbs UP!!!!
JohnDavis2-GROW UP!
I think Trayvon was scared because he knew he was being followed and decided to confront whoever it was. He had no idea Z was in Neighborhood Watch or any of the details that have come to light since. He was walking home from a store and a guy seemed to be after him. I don't think it is a different reaction than other people would have in the same situation. Trying to blame all this on the victim is ridiculous. Z was the one at fault for not doing what the police told him and following Trayvon and he is at fault for the kid's murder.
I agree with you, patcee.
Below is a quote from click> http://the-truth-about-george-zimmermans-kel-tec-pf-9/ ----
Could this have anything to do with George not being able to find his cellphone..........maybe, he was NOT EVERlooking for his cellphone in the wrong pocket but WAS IN FACT trying to get his gun out, but it was snagging up in his clothing.
Could this be why Trayvon hit George in the face? Did Trayvon see George's gun at this point?
The key quote of George's is
The only reason for him to look DOWN was either to untangle his gun from his clothing OR to see to it that it
was drawn out smoothly from the holster in his waistband.
.
And why would George try to call 911 IF Trayvon had actually just said,
Anyone would know it is too late to call 911 in the middle of a confrontation.
It is too late to update the dispatcher on his exact location so George could have them there in 2 seconds.
Any kind of info that proves that Martin was capable of violence against others, any info that proves he did in fact attack Z first.
Misscreant
And that photo was PHOTOSHOPPED to make him appear softer in appearance.
skrewdworld, usually criminal records are the best indicator if one has committed violence or may commit violence against someone. Martin had none.
trust_verify, please post your proof about the photoshopping of that picture.
tom:: So there aren't any screwed up whites in prisons? Why is it when I watch TV (and NOT a Hollywood production) I see just as many screwed-up whites, the Aryan nation mainly, who are covered front to back with their symbols as tatoos. Don't give me your crap! Everyone can tell you are a white racist bigot. I am white also, but I have had the opportunity to be associated with people of other nationalities. Thank God that I was brought up correctly!
T_V
Nope, it was from an ATM machine. You should know better than to lie by now. Go back to your meeting. The Grand Wizard (ric) must be missing you by now.
Wendy
That would be Martin punching him in the face, beating his head on the concrete (which is documented in the police reports, witness statements, and EMS reports and is called assault) and Martin reaching for Zimmermans gun, under Florida law that is called Justifiable Homicide. Under the Florida Jury Instructions, unless the jury comes to the conclusion that there was no way Martin was reaching for the gun, Zimmerman is acquitted because of reasonable doubt, and with witnesses putting Martin on top of Zimmerman there is absolutely no way to prove that Martin wasnt going for the gun, therefore its reasonable doubt.
Patcee
There is a big difference between confronting someone and physically assaulting them, once you assault someone youre at fault, if you kill them its murder, if they kill you its self defense. All Martin had to do is say "Im staying right over there", and the whole thing is over, but he didnt, he punched Zimmerman in the face, so what do you expect Zimmerman to do after that, just take whatever kind of beating Martin wants to give him? Zimmermans attorney is going to say his life was in danger from the kid beating his head on the concrete, not to mention the kid getting his hands on Zimmermans gun which would have put his life even more in danger, and a jury is going to believe him. Youve got ghetto thug and neighborhood watch, who do you think a jury of middle aged white people is going to believe.
Steve - everything you said came from a proven liar's mouth and is not supported by the evidence. TM did not live in the ghetto - that is BS!
And how do you know the jury is going to be middle aged white people? You got some kind of crystal ball! This is not the 50s and 60s - wow!! There was an 18 year old on Drew Peterson's jury and he found DP guilty. Also, as to your question of believing a NW person - you can bet your a$$ that the jury will know that as NW having a weapon is not allowed!! Not to mention, this particular NW is a proven LIAR.
cc
He was on his way to Target that night, not on "duty". And 25% of blacks in Florida are ineligible for jury duty due to felony convictions, which narrows the black jury pool down considerably.
Obviously... you don't live in the South, in general or Florida, in specific. The vignette you just brought up is the beginning f many a Lyching story in the 'south'.
If a lone male is walking at a quicker pace - eough to catchup with you... black, white, asian or martian ... you either speed up or stop to check your shoe lace - and let him pass, maybe cross the street, if its lighted. You do not need too be sucker punched in the back of the head.
The only way that changes is if you recognize the person. Urban street smarts teaches kids the basic rules of survival - skipping down the street, looking for butterflies will get you beaten, robbed and wondering what the heck just happened? It ain't Mayberry RFD any more.
Steve,
If Z were as he said, almost unconscious and feared for his life due to the fact that TM was slamming his he into the concrete, don't you think a hospital visit would have been the route to take? If Martin was on top of Z when Z shot him, how do you explain the LACK of blood on Z clothing? Logically speaking, one would think that Z would have rolled TM over to get up, however TM was found face down...when the confrontation originally occured, GZ said he was reaching for his phone to call 911, why did he not call 911 after he shot TM? Hell apparently 911 was his friend, he calls all the time, one would think instinctively that wouldve been his first move. But no, he tells someone to get his wife! Too many inconsistencies, GZ is lying to protect himself, which would be what most people would do no one wants to go to jail, but GZ put himself in this position the moment he got out of his vehicle.
Officer Smith was on scene within 20 seconds according to the timeline, not much time for GZ to call 911. If you are trying to imply that Martin was shot before witnesses put him on top of Zimmerman, thats not a very plausible scenario either. The best explanation for Martin not bleeding onto Zimmerman would be that his heart stopped pumping and he was wearing layers of clothing, some gunshot wounds bleed a lot and some hardlybleed at all, it depends on where you are hit. There was a witness there within a few seconds of the gunshot, not exactly enough time for Zimmerman to kick his own ass as some such as CC and DOCJT would suggest.
bstraitupitiswatitis
Have you read the autopsy report? 5 pints (converted from liters for you) were inside the chest cavities. The nature of the wound was such that MOST of the blood was contained inside the body and only a minute amount exited. Thus even DURING the officers attempts at CPR there was little blood exiting the body.
All they have to do is establish reasonable doubt with one juror and this case is over. I find it funny all the folks getting pissed about why they are looking into records of various types and trying to determine the background on the people involved. If any of you were facing the gallows you would stop at nothing to gather that one piece of evidence to stop your life from ending. So stop being idiots and getting pissed and wanting to riot or whatever. Just let it happen and in the end you can decide if what transpired was good or bad. Have some faith in the system we have established...and if you feel you know better than those people who hold those offices and put their necks on the line to keep this country functioning, then have the balls to step up and take the office away from them. Otherwise STFU, watch the sun rise and set closer to the day when you are snuffed out. F*cking mouth breathers... Vote to Toke!!!
NIce post BFD!!
BFD
Well said!
I just read through all these moronic comments-I vote yours as the most logical comment posted on this subject to date.
By the way- "Vote to toke" has my vote!