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Subscribe to RSSA man who burst into a Wisconsin nail salon and opened fire was found dead on the premises. Three other people were confirmed dead and four more injured. NBC's Kevin Tibbles reports.
Updated at 8:23 a.m. ET: A man who was ordered last week to turn over all his weapons in a domestic dispute opened fire Sunday at his estranged wife's workplace near Milwaukee, killing three women and injuring four others, authorities said. He then apparently shot himself to death, police said.
The suspect was identified as Radcliffe Franklin Haughton, 45, of Brown Deer, Wis., said Brookfield Police Chief Daniel Tushaus, who said Haughton was found dead in the building, a 9,000-square-foot, two-story salon and day spa across the street from a busy mall. Police had not identified the dead on Sunday evening.
Police told reporters they were expecting an armed encounter with Haughton, who was ultimately found in a locked area in the salon. It took several hours to find him because their search was slowed by concern there may have been an explosive device. Police said it turned out to be a propane tank and they didn't know who brought it into the building.
Milwaukee County court records show that Haughton's wife, Zina Daniel Haughton, filed for a restraining order on Oct. 8.
Police said there had been a previous incident at the nail salon, and that Haughton had slashed his wife's tires.
A hearing was held on Thursday and Haughton was ordered to deliver his firearms to the sheriff and to have no contact for four years with the complainant or the residence. The complainant isn't identified in the court record, and the court records don't indicate whether he surrendered any firearms.
Wisconsin court records
Court record online showing the restraining order against the suspect in the shooting.
Other records indicate that Haughton was also charged with disorderly conduct in January 2011, a charge that was dismissed in June 2011 when a witness failed to appear in court.
Police said the shootings began at 11:09 a.m. (12:09 p.m. ET) at the Azana Day Spa, across Moorland Road from Brookfield Square mall in Brookfield, about 10 miles west of Milwaukee. The mall was closed as SWAT team members scoured the area for Haughton.
Froedtert Memorial Lutheran Hospital in Milwaukee, where the victims, aged 22, 30, 32 and 40, were taken for treatment, said the survivors were women who had been shot. Two were undergoing treatment in the emergency room for non-life-threatening conditions, and the two others underwent surgery. Their conditions weren't reported.
The hospital said it had resumed normal operations after having been locked down while Haughton was still believed to be at large.
Zina Haughton has a state license as a cosmetology manager. Two workers at the salon said Zina Haughton was estranged from her husband.
Brookfield, Wis., Police Chief Daniel Tushaus says Radcliffe Haughton was found dead after shooting at least seven people at a day spa.
Records suggest that Haughton had endured several years of financial problems, with a civil judgment for $19,000 in 2006 and a state tax lien for $5,000 in 2009. His home has been listed as for sale by owner. His former job, from 2003 to 2007, is listed in public records as general manager of a former Land Rover dealership in the Glendale area of Milwaukee County.
Auto advertisements and business records list a man named Radcliffe Haughton as sales manager at an auto dealership in Milwaukee. Calls to the dealership weren't returned.
Watch continuing coverage on Today's TMJ4
Suspect's father aghast
Haughton's father, also named Radcliffe, was shocked and dismayed upon learning that his son was the suspect.
"Oh, my God," the elder Haughton told WTMJ in a telephone interview from his home in Florida. "The Haughton family apologizes, and we are sorry."
"This is not a reflection of the Haughton family," he said, adding: "One member of the Haughton family has done something terrible. This is not the Haughtons' way. This is not the way we live. This is not how I raised my son up."
Haughton told the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel that he spoke to his son just last week, telling him he could stay with him in Florida if he needed to.
"I told him, 'Whatever you do, don't do anything stupid,'" the elder Haughton said.
Bing Maps
People run screaming from spa
At the scene of the shootings, an eyewitness, Jenny Remshak, told WTMJ that she was parked nearby when she saw a woman "crawling out of the building, and she rolled over to the cops, and they picked her up and took her right away in the ambulance."
A few minutes later, "about 10 people come running out of the building, screaming," Remshak said.
"Everybody was just grabbing their hearts and covering their mouths and watching in fear," she said.
It was the second mass shooting in the Milwaukee area in just 2½ months. A gunman opened fire at a Sikh temple near Milwaukee on Aug. 5, killing six people and wounding at least three others, before being shot to death.
Three people were killed and a fourth was injured last week when a gunman stormed a hair salon in Casselberry, Fla. The gunman then killed himself.
NBC's Isolde Raftery contributed to this report.
Radcliffe Haughton, 45, is suspected of targeting a Milwaukee-area mall on Sunday morning where his estranged wife is believed to have worked as a hair stylist. He was found dead hours later. NBC's Kevin Tibbles reports.
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Leave a Comment:
Have gun ... will shoot.
As American as mom and apple pie.
Let me guess - self defense?
Yeah, right.
Nope, just the way it is in urban areas.
No, if the people there had their own guns there could have been self defense. Gun control constantly fails in stopping criminals from getting guns, because criminals seem to not be able to follow the law for some reason.
BS John it's just they way it is everywhere here in the U.S knucklehead, if there is one think I can't stand is racist cowards like yourself who talk smack about urban area's!
not that way in a lot of urban areas.. guns abound in the Republican areas because the GOV's have instutited very very austere budgets cutting public safety, education and health care.. oops i forgot they all have health care at our expense.. so since there are not sufficent POLICE to do the job.. crimes seems to run rampant
Typical BS comment -- you have NO idea what the story is even about -- but you are already Judge a Jury. Go F yourself.
forest that is one of the stupidest thinks I have ever seen posted in a comment
you must be a REPUBLICAN
ForestWoman12,
Guns are tools that people use to kill other people. If stricter gun control laws prevent one criminal from committing an act like this, then it is worth it imo.
Real cute. Sh#t is sh#t remember so don't relate it with american heritage values meaning civilian firearm ownership.
Gun control would do nothing in terms of stopping these lunatics from harming people. When it comes time to turn your guns in do you really think the criminals and the nutcases are going to turn theirs in? No, it would just leave the law abidding citizens defensless.
gotta love david powell's vision of america. a dozen women in a hair salon, every oe of them packing heat. great stuff!
truthorlie
Have you ever seen the pictures of little kids killed in the cross-fire? If the gun owner/hero you are talking about misses, how many more people would die? Would this cause the attacker to retaliate and continue firing after they normally would have stopped? The police take the marksman training so that you and I don't have too.
I also find it insulting that you would stereotype and politicize this tragedy without knowing all the facts.
Do people really think that if we ban guns, criminals will just stop using them. Are you all really that naive??
Amazing, I have heard all week long about how bad Romney is for politicizing the attack on our consulate in Benghazi and what to do I see going on from so many left wingers here .... politicizing the attacks in Brookfield!
I live in Waukesha, share borders with rookfield, I shop at the mall that all of the emergency vehicles are staged in. These are HUMANS that have been shot and are crtical condition at the local hospotal and all you pukes can think about is using it as a club to bash one another instead of stopping to think about hopes and prayers for the victims?
The person that did the shooting is still armed and at large out here and instead of hoping that he/she is caught before anything else happens you choose to turn it into an opportunity to try and pin it to an R or a D!
You people are pathetic! ALL OF YOU!
Another great victory for the NRA and gun nuts everywhere. More guns thats the answer.
Just another day in the land of the Groids'......
If guns don't kill people, people kill people, do toasters not toast toast? Toast toast toast?
Look out single parents!!!!!! Nitt Romwit will be coming for you!!!!!!
If "people kill people", than explain why are you giving them guns to do it better and more effectively with?
And gun control that tracks every weapon, and links it to a registered owner, would end guns going to the black market. Atleast the vast majority of them anyway. Its the same way they control the billions of cars. Criminals can ignore the law, because nothing is stopping a BIG flow of guns going to the black market. Not all criminals have been caught yet. Tracking weapons would make owners accountable for where their guns end up.
Condolences to the families and friends of the victims... Its getting sad how often I need to say that over incidents like this.
In Michigan-90
are you kidding? marksmanship training? most cops are some of the worst shots i've ever witnessed.
maxgiver, try reading your own posts, then you find the really stupid comments.
Tracking actually would not do as much good as you'd think Freedom4Everyone. Canada has shown that. Black Market firearms are often either stolen goods or brought in from outside the country, so the gun registration would only potentially lead you to who legally owned it last, assuming it was not imported. You're also running on the assumption that the firearm itself is found before the person. Criminals don't tend to just leave their firearms at the scene of the crime, they'll take it with them. The info database of tracking bullet groove patterns or striker patterns are iffy at best, assuming you get a sample that can tell you anything. Shows like CSI have given people the idea that it is easy to track down what gun was used from the fired bullet, when in reality it only has maybe a 20% chance of being legible enough to give an accurate match.
As is said multiple times, criminals will not follow the law, which means most gun control laws will just make their life easier, as it reduces the chance that the person will shoot back at them. Perhaps one way to reduce the black market firearm use is to make it so if you possess a firearm illegally, automatic tag of 30 years onto your sentence, which could effectively turn many sentences into near life sentences. If the guy has a chance of spending half of his life in a jail cell because he feels the need to rob a convenience store, as opposed to just a few years, he may think twice of using it. On the other hand such could also go the negative path of making more go into the "Leave no witnesses" mentality.
Honestly, there is no silver bullet for the situation. There is also no easy way to solve the problem. Perhaps it would be better to go after the source of the issue rather than the symptom. Figure out why they're going into crime and killing and try to remedy that rather than focusing on the use of a gun, the symptom.
John and Truthorlie Are right. Most don't want to admit because everyone is so busy being "politically correct". I have worked in these areas for 30 years. Call them urban, low government housing, whatever you want to call it. They live in free or government housing, have a bunch of kids, live off food stamps and tanf. All have guns. Get drunk, shoot each other up in the parking lot over drugs. Because selling drugs is what buys them those nice fancy rims for their car. You can try to cover it up all you want, that is how it Is in those areas. If your going to disagree, go down there and sit in the parking lot in the evening about 9PM. See how you sit there, before you put it in drive and take off out of there. Guns don't kill people, the guy holding it in his hand does. So taking everyone's guns with new laws, won't solve a thing. He will still get drunk, pizzed off at his wife, go to the hair salon and start shooting at everyone until he shoots her. It's the truth, everyone needs to stop looking the other way and being politically correct about it, and start solving the problem.
In michigan, Gun control means one thing to criminals. How many guns can I control at once?
Yeah let's make some new laws so criminals won't have guns!!!!!! Oh wait Criminals don't follow laws, therefore that is why we call them criminals!!!! These must be the same people who don't want us to call the illegal immigrants illegal because it hurts their feelings. We have really birthed some morons!!!!
truthorlie
That is one of the dumbest comments lol, so if the criminal uses a sword, a crossbow, a car, or a bomb its ok with you? You can commit crimes ... as long as its not with a gun lol
There's much truth to the statement, "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns"!
How many libbies will now get in a hissy fit over my comment?
Anna, how about losing the self righteous arrogance and address the Actual problem. 98% of crimes are committed with a Gun. If criminals switch to a sword as weapon of choice, we will have to deal with that when it happens. See-this is exactly why the problem prevails. Instead of everyone addressing the problem and working on a solution, it's easier to just use arrogance and self righteousness because the problem is in someone else's neighborhood.
@ chanctob Arrogance? No Sir (?), just a person who wants to keep her (and her family's) right to self-defense, and a gun is the best weapon for self-defense. And your number is wrong too, approximately 95% of crimes committed with guns are committed with guns obtained illegally, approximately 60% of murders were committed with guns, while approximately 5% of all crimes (including rape, robbery, assault) were committed with guns.
Again recently (as I mentioned in another post) a 12 year old girl was able to defend herself and her house with a gun, shooting the 2 guys who had broken into the house. Without a gun she would have probably been either hurt or dead.
With anti-guns laws, only criminals will have guns.
Truthorlie, you obviously don't know what you're talking about, first off that Mall isn't in Milwaukee, it's in Brookfield which is in Waukesha county which is a very Republican area. I've been to that area numerous times and used to work up that way. What happened has nothing to do with politics.
I know you all expect me to jump in about gun control and the abuses and excesses of the 2nd Amendment in our modern society yet again...
but truthfully there isn't much more to be said that hasn't been said ad nauseum.
We're a society of guns and we deserve what we get in having them so prevalently. Don't want gun violence, then don't have guns.
well hell; 1st. today was ;cops(off duty) kill a Naked woman in florida, I guess being naked was a threat to the poor widdle policemans; now it's in wis. well 'least it wasn't in chitcogo, or detroit, or denver, or california. The deasease is spreading.more and more people are drinkin' da kool aid.
Brookfield is one of the richest counties in Wisconsin. The area of the shooting is in one of the wealthiest areas in Wisconsin.
truth
Here is a story about one of your family members. Go figure.
"Geneva County, Alabama, USA - and resulted in the deaths of 10 people (two of whom were children) at the hands of the 28-year-old gunman,"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_McLendon
Truthorlie:
Your method of pigeonholing people as being black and voting for President Obama makes as much sense as saying all wealthy and ignorant people vote for Republicans.
The reality is that the person was in a free fall due to financial problems of not having a job since 2007. If you read the entire article you might have been able to formulate that opinion.
You can expect to have more of this behavior since the wealthiest few have deemed the once middle class as being unnecessary in their new world view of society.
You must be a believer in Mitt Romney when he throws out the idea of all he wants to do is provide great paying jobs for the middle class in this country. Based on the past recent history of the Republicans who align themselves with large corporate interests do you really feel that the lifestyle of the workers is more important to them than having greater profits ?
The only question is when will these animals on top of the economic-social-political pyramid who are hoarding great wealth and diminishing the opportunities for the once middle class in America will finally come to meet their just ends.
Disagree entirely, you would be better off taking the money used to enforce the law to hire or educate more doctors, nurses and medical supplies and paramedics. So the whole if it only saves one person its worth it is just BS, you would be better off taking the money and actually educate and hire more medical staff. You would save more lives doing that each year than those worthless gun control laws that don't have any effect on gun crime.
Condolences to the family and friends of those lost. A speedy recovery for the injured.
It's sad that "crimes of passion" often end this way.
Our thoughts and prayers are with you.
Technically bullets kill people.
Truthorlie:
I don't even remotely consider you as the people I'm talking about hoarding great wealth. I'm referring to the heads of huge corporations who have been steadily downsizing and restructuring and in the end laying off the majority of their workforce over 50, outsourcing an exporting in order to garner greater profits to themselves at the expense of our nation. In my books these people are without any conscious and should be considered traitors.
I'm an independent who believes in preserving the 2nd amendment along with the ideas of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I believe that corporate welfare should be eliminated along with the far too low capital gains tax of 14% (this should at a minimum should be doubled).
The majority of problems within our system can be traced back to 1980's with giving huge tax breaks for the wealthiest few at the expense of all others. This economic war of attrition against the middle class must end.
What the country needs is more trade and technical schools that are publicly funded that are free to attend without any age restrictions. We need to break the ties with importing substandard goods from places like China and provide real opportunities for our fellow citizens.
Let me explain this in a way even YOU can understand. And I'm typing this VERY slowly.....just for you, okay?
You need to PLUG a toaster INTO an electrical outlet and press lever or PITON to get it to work. Provided that you put BREAD in it first.
Likewise, a gun needs a PERSON to load its chamber with bullets and pull the TRIGGER in order for it to work.
Get it now???? I can draw you a map, if you like.
NOT necessarily true. As it just so happens, I live in a fairly rural area (in a town of about 11,000) and a single woman, on the young side, and living alone was murdered earlier this year. Which prompted me to prod my wife into sharpening up her skills at our local shooting range.
cowtowntrucker
well hell; 1st. today was ;cops(off duty) kill a Naked woman in florida, I guess being naked was a threat to the poor widdle policemans; now it's in wis. well 'least it wasn't in chitcogo, or detroit, or denver, or california. The deasease is spreading.more and more people are drinkin' da kool aid.
Oh wait, heck the naked Guy was White? Naw say it ain't so. For all the Racist you do it a lot more, just don't claim it. It's not a black or white thing. It's pretty much stupid, ignorant ppl like some on this board who think they are all that and a bag of chips just because of their skin color. I think not. Stop being stupid and start addressing the real problems in this county. And you can pretty much tell what that is by just reading this message board.
Again and Again and Again IT Is Proven America needs An American Universal healthcare System as THE OTHER SANE COUNTRIES HAVE with Psychiatric "Examine and Retain" Abilities. Face it Sister and Brother Americans, the republicanCrimeCartelAristocrats VIA Big Pharma have closed down 85% of the Country's State Mental Hospitals in exchange for VERY VERY Profitable "Psychiatric Medication". This guy slipped into Criminal Insanity and Killed. NO Medication Known cures a Criminally Insane Person; short of a Brain Transplant, That person IS GONE. When America has A Universal NationalHealthCareSystem instead of this republicanAristocrat Sucker "health insurance" Scam System these events will disappear. Did YOU hear that Rommel and Lyin'Ryan???????/
@ illumination fascination-3070427
I couldn't agree more, well said on all accounts.
I blame the parents for their morals (or lack there of) while raising their son. Or the failure to see where this would lead.
I was raised in a house with guns, admired for what they were, also respected. I was taught right from wrong, and would never think of shooting another human being. But to some Libbie's GOD, GUNS and RELIGIOUS BELIEFS are as foreign as the Russian language.
My point is growing up when a conflict occurred you fought it out and that was the end of it. Today though somebody ultimately wants to pull out a gun and start shooting. The problem with the later is, now the shooter has forfitted their rights to be free. OVER WHAT? A BROKEN RELATIONSHIP? GIVE ME A BREAK. Nothing is worth me losing my freedom over.
@in Michagan 90, the police suck at shooting just look at all the bystanders that got shot in NYC by the NYPD they shot 10 bystanders and only hit the gunman once a few months ago , i rather take my chances defending myself from both the criminials as well as the police from the lack of training
Mark S,
Do you have a link for that? I live in NYC and haven't heard about 10 bystandards getting shot and the gunman only once. I was out of the country a little while ago, but I would hope I heard about that.
@ illumination fascination-3070427 "...wealthy and ignorant people vote for Republicans." ~Yep. That does make sense...that makes a lot of sense.
Truthorlie:
1. Class warfare has been in full effect since the the 1980's. Giving massive tax breaks to the wealthiest few and letting industries regulate themselves lead to our current fiscal crisis.
The enormous gap in wealth which hasn't been this large since the great depression should be a clue to most that the system is dangerously out of balance. The society needs a strong middle class in order to retain order. If this gap is allowed to grow further you will see a sharp rise in murders, kidnappings and home invasions against those who seek to oppress the many.
2. I also attended a mixed race technical and trade high school, much of the equipment used was donated by local industries, they understood the importance of training people to make them qualified to be operate equipment and know the ins and outs of design through drafting to machine shop, pattern making, printing and auto mechanics. Race was not an issue as we were all there to learn as much as possible in order to have either a career or further training beyond this.
3. The concept of race, illegal aliens and gender all seem to used to further divide people among these lines. The GOP seems to like playing one group against the other in order to further their goals of making the already rich wealthier while at the same time dividing the majority which isn't profiteering off the misery of others.
Truly such issues as employers hiring illegal aliens to work for far less than our citizens could be easily addressed by the process of seizure of all assets of these individuals and corporations that participate in this activity.
4. The real problem is disproportionate distribution of wealth in this country and the cancerous effects this has on the social and political structure within it.
The politicians within this country have been steadily pulling away from the idea of public service to the what's in it for me mentality. Too often politicians are appointed to committees to oversee corporations and in the end their lack of oversight goes rewarded by those industries in the form of grants, or positions within their firms. The idea of skirting bribery by these small degrees of difference is unacceptable.
We need to prevent the next occurrence of another such pieces of legislation which repeals any provision that protects society from the financial impropriety of large corporations that destroy our society, such as the overturning of the Glass-Steagall Banking Act of 1933, in order for their financial gain at the expense of everyone.
We will either be a country united with a level playing field striving for mutual respect and a common goal of a better standard of living for everyone or we will be played for fools against one another for benefit of the wealthiest few.
The corporations and their wealthy Messiah, Romney, are out to make things for the bulk of Americans the way it has been in China for the past 100 years, so that one day, they'll have a new work force of people here in the USA who'll work for a dime a day until they die. That way they can all sit on their thrones of gold and laugh at us with their $50,000 an hour pay checks!
truthorlie Comment collapsed by the community
Let me guess.... Milwaukee, black male, obama voter
==========
...and just how do you now this guy even voted at all? Your post is so typical of the mouth breathing, moronic GOP/TP disease that has infected our country. truthorlie?....I'd say "lie".
Why can't these nut cases just kill themselves first.
Truthorlie:
Are you suggesting that we lower our standard of living further to compete with the third world ?
I'd rather place tariffs against the poorly made and dangerous products from places like China. We can make any of those items better and safer here, while providing decent paying jobs for the middle class. The rather worthless people on top profiteering from our trade relationship with China are destroying this country; we can't afford to let lecherous and treacherous people such as Henry Kissinger undermine our entire society just to make a fast buck.
Are you aware of the downside of coal burning ?
i have owned guns for over thirty years never killed a person with my guns , i wonder if they are defective ??
Nah, the only defectives are the A$$hats who think that killing people will solve their insanity. This is a tragedy and as usual, instead of concern for the victims, the board lights up with the gun/no gun crowd. Now, how's about the folks killed by the drag racer? No gun in sight and yet people died. If you really want to control something, better be looking at bombs, they kill lots of people.
Then again, a man was hit with a molotov cocktail while standing outside of a supermarket in CA. Wonder what to make of that one?
/yawn
Another article turns into an anti-gun lobby fest... Yes it's the individual who killed, and no I don't think stopping everyone from having guns would have prevented this whack job... They found him by a propane tank, not knowing how anyone got it in there. 1 match, and... I got a feeling that this was the sort of person who if he didn't have a gun, he would have resorted to either a. arson, or b. a home made bomb, ala Al Quida style. He killed and committed suicide, suicide bomber (if there was no gun) might not have been past him. He already maneaged to get a tank that stores flameable materials into the place...
Maxgiver, you must have dropped out of school when you were 7 and began sucking the government tit right away. Are you telling me you have seen a gun pull its own trigger? You f*ing Commy! HRDawg, same goes for you...
Truthorlie,
Massachusetts is all Democratic and we're not in the toilet.
Keep giving them guns, they haven't kill all of the rest of us yet!
So get yourself a gun and learn how to shoot it so you don't get killed.
This is America (contrary to what Obama thinks) and we have the right to bear arms, everyone has the right to have guns.(Unfortunately wackcos also have these rights)
If obama gets his way and tries to take away our rights to bear arms and eliminates all guns in America, you'll end up seeing "Suspect pours gas on people and lights match" or " Several people stabbed in a mall" or "Women gives people a look that kills and 4 die and 3 left in critical condition" or "Mary Screams Bloody Murder and six joggers lose their hearing, The seventh jogger thanks his noise cancelling BEATS headphones for only losing 40% of his hearing rather than becoming completely deaf"
and the list goes on.
We need to capture these sickos and deem them unfit for coexistence with any other living creature on planet earth and execute them immediately. That would send a strong message to the next "would-be" mass murderer.
Sigh....
Is a country where it is necessary to own a gun and carry on your person at all times to be safe, a country worth living in?
The first step to fixing a problem is admitting there is a problem, and America has not done that.
Sure, blame it on the gun. It is clearly the guns fault....If enough people in our nation keep attributing such violence on inanimate objects crime will continue to be a major problem in America. I have never owned a gun and have never been part of a gun lobby org. but seeing the foolishness of such statements is not difficult for anyone who is concerned about crime in America.
In Michigan-90,
Where are you thinking of moving to?
the NRA will not allow that.. did you know that the NRA has 12 story building in RESTON..mmmmmmmmmmm that would seem to house quite a few people who support guns and violence
the best way to see if a bill would pass.. is check the contributions to congressmen and senators.. it's not a small amount
In Michigan-90
and what do you suggest then??Perhaps moving to Switzerland where they issue guns to EVERYone wold be the answer, Oh while your on here why not see what their crime rate is??
The great thing is you are free to leave if you don't like it.
Another great victory for the NRA and guns nuts everywhere. More guns, thats the answer.
rocky, i really wish i understood what you were trying to say. seems to be quite entertaining. but, i think i at least get that you want everyone everywhere to be packing heat. great world!
so let's chat about owning guns and having the concealed weapons permits and all that and just how easy it is to get the permit and buy a gun.. to many examples to mention.. but Aroura CO comes to mind.......
so lets chat and think about the father who recently killed his own son.. he thought his son was a burgalur
just how many of us will make that mistake and life unbearable .. and remember tyhe weapon has more ammo in it
rocky-2318920
.....
When your entire argument is predicated(based mainly on) on the opposing party looking up facts that you do not provide, you don't have a very good argument.
The problem in America is not a gun problem, it is a problem with gun culture. People don't respect guns and far too free-wheeling and "second amendmenty" about guns and don't focus on proper and responsible use from the top down. In Switzerland they teach people how to respect guns as the powerful tools they are since they are young.
My word Jim..yes Obama is coming to your front door and taking all of your beloved guns. Freaking relax, you nut jobs have been spewing that BS since his first day in office...has it happened?
Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people. On this one, Chicago has it right.
There are some facts Boom, number one, Obama has given more gun rights since coming into office. Those that claim Obama is after their guns are probably Republican bigots that it doesn't matter what the facts are Obama is black and therefore at fault.
Take the bullet out of the gun or take the gun out of somebody's hand there won't be a mass murder. Sorry guns do kill people when it is in the wrong hands and you cannot not keep them out of the wrong hands by wearing blinders to the fact we have a problem.
John in Battle Creek
Hi John... I just wanted to say hi and make a note that my wife and I just returned from shopping. Guess what, neither her nor my firearm jumped out of their holsters and shot anyone. I'll surmise we have some civilized firearms, and not those misbehaving inanimate objects that seem to be shooting people. Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot. Firearms can't think nor function on their own. It takes a human being to make it do anything.... shall we just get down to it and ban people?
---------------Well once again it was a gun that did this--And this is not even in Muslim territory, like when they train the Blackwater soldiers!--Or Jewish--------- No, this is once again that special German Cross territory--like Colorado---- like we have in so many areas.!
These are just ordinary killers, same as the USA police shooting and killing 2-3 people every day!
Wait until Mitt and Ryan take away SS,Medicare, Medicaid, and all unemployment benefits, and of cause all those people on dissability, that will finally be the time to use all these guns to protect the rights of USA people--shoot and kill if they are not satisfied, to protect what is rightfully theirs!
Rocky, your statement is not really accurate as Switzerland has fewer homicides per capita than we do. "Homicides -- the crime most commonly associated with gun control issues -- occur very rarely in Switzerland, where the murder rate per 100,000 people averages at less than one, according to a 2011 report from the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. But in the United States, the average is five per 100,000. This means that despite the country's great wealth and prominence in the global sphere, its homicide rates are worse than several less-developed countries including Cuba and Suriname. (At least the U.S. is doing better than the global average of about seven homicides per 100,000 people.)"
Is too much violence death nast in our society. Blame guns all you want but what is the root cause?
Shhhhh John.."FACT" is a four letter word in these here parts.
Cite a source other than the NRA that you heard that from.
The NRA said the same crap if he was elected the first time. Only difference this time, is that they had to re spin their lie by saying he just lulled us into thinking he wont, just so he has a chance at re election. They also had to dance around the fact that Obama actually expanded gun rights.
You can not make this stuff up. The press releases are out there for you to see. Just do the search if you dare.
I don't know what's worse. You believing that your guns will be ripped from your hands by Obama, or that at least 9 others believe your crap as well.
We had a shooting here in a Verizon store. He killed one and would have killed many more if another person didn['t pull his (legally possessed) gun and taken the crazy guy out. This guy probably saved four lives, who knows ---- that's if the shooter wasn't able to reload and fire another five or six shots.
It's not guns, it's not gun laws ----- it's people, and as you can see even in the last few decades, it is getting worse and worse. No one wants to kill one person anymore --- they want to kill anyone and everyone they can ---- all the more reason to have other people armed.
It's time to launch one of these attacks on the NRA headquarters...they may be able to fight back....but at least we can take a few of those killers out!
Lets all blame guns because we are not responsible for own actions.
I nor my family be made a victim because of the beliefs of people who refuse to admit reality.
Criminals don't get back ground checks, criminals don't care about human life, criminals will still find a way to inflect their hate on others.
You want to be a victim go ahead, but I nor will my family be made victims.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Things have changed in 200 years. If the purpose of the second amendment is to let local militia's stop the federal government, let's give out tactical nukes, since those automatic weapons won't stand against federal troops for more than a minute or two. How is this relevant today? Not saying it is not; just asking how can it be relevant?
If the purpose is self defense (which is not stated in the second amendment), then take a self defense class. If someone is in your face with a gun, you don't have time to get your concealed weapon, or unlock your gun safe. Why conceal your weapon? Why not wear it in the open, so criminals know not to mess with you?
If the purpose is hunting (which is not stated in the second amendment), a bolt action rifle is more accurate than a clip fed weapon. A bow is more sporting. If sport is not the issue, then just use dynamite.
How did the intention of the framer's of the constitution get twisted to justify the sale of automatic weapons only suited to mass murder? There are so many guns in out country that police have no choice but to shoot first and sort out the bodies later. The statistics are pretty clear, relative to any other country, we have more gun deaths ... guns do not make us safer.
So what is a relevant objective today of gun ownership in this country? Let's be clear, with a new amendment, not subject to interpretation to the courts and special interests.
I agree, I am so sick of people saying guns don't kill people. They most certainly do, without guns there is less opportunity. Look at the statistics of countries who do not allow guns murder statistics. The U.S. is ranked number 1 with murders by firearms, and has the largest gun ownership total per population at nearly 90%, and the next nearest is only 45%. And the "right to bear arms" was designed for protection against hostiles during a revolutionary era, not to mention the ongoing situation with native Indians, so that no longer is a valid argument. Also, it was to appropriately form a militia (police force). The ridiculous notion that those who feel their rights are being violated are ignorant to the reasoning behind the 2nd amendment which does not give those rights to individual citizens. For all of you who keep using this as your reason for carrying a gun, it is the 21st century and we should be more concerned about the majority instead of selfishly using gun ownership as a personal issue. Hopefully you, or anyone you care about, is not murdered at the hands of lunatic wielding an automatic weapon.
Bundgaard,
Believing that Romney/Ryan will take away Social Security is the same as believing Obama will knock at your door to take away your guns.
This certainly is a black eye for the wife-beater lobby.
america isn't safe and you can't trust the people in it. the people who try to "fix" the problem is part of the problem. frickin messed up country, messed up world.
Hypothetical, if we adopted strict anti-gun laws, what would happen next? What would it look like? If we re-interpreted the second amendment and restricted gun ownership to a militia, how many militias would be required to keep the militias in check?
So you think if guns are outlawed, that the crime will stop?? How about banning buses and automobiles? They could certainly be used to kill people. How about knives and pencils/pens? They could certainly kill people in the wrong hands.
Idiots.
jim greek, max
1: Just what exactly has obama done to curtail gun ownership? ans. Nothing.
2: If you pay the nra, how do they protect your gun rights? Ans. They dont.
Your right to own a gun is spelled out in the Constitution. To abrogate the Constitution you need to initiate a constitutional amendment. To change the Constitution you need 75% of the states to ratify the resolution and then 75% of both houses must also ratify the resolution. That will NEVER happen.
"They are going to take you guns away." is how the nra scares ignorant people to part with their money. I really dont care what you do with your money, That large building was built with it.
I want to go back to the times before guns existed. Because crime didn't exist until we invented firearms.
The Framers of the U.S. Constitution must have been extra terrestrial because they were creepy brilliant. Sometimes I scratch my head and think "wow, those ancient mesopotamian neanderthals actually had reasoning skills and the power of foresight".
Seems that worked well for the suspect.
Back in 2008, I signed up to get e-mail alerts from the Obama camp. About 2 weeks later, I was sent an e-mail from the Brady group who wants to limit gun ownership. Later is was revealed that e-mails were give to certain groups by the Obama admin. I strongly dislike getting literature from a group I never solicited. This notion that Obama wants to limit guns or remove them entirely is not so far fetched. However, one only needs to look to Syria to see what happens to citizens that are unable to protect themselves from their very government.
That being said, years ago, a neighbor starting shooting up the neighborhood and when the police came and took him away we got inside that house to speak with the wife. The house was full of guns. I mean 25 or more. That is ridiculous. They were hanging off the bedposts. This was a doctor BTW. We wanted the police to take away the guns forever because we feared for our lives since eventually he got out and came home. The police, and later the DA refused to help us.
ThinkVoice
Yeah give them bows and bombs instead! lol
There's much truth to the statement, "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns"!
How many libbies will now get in a hissy fit over my comment?
What does this have to do with Obama?
America doesn't have a gun problem.
America has a CULTURE problem.
@ megidolaon Are you serious?? Go crawl back under your rock. The first murder was when Cain killed his brother, Abel. Crime & killing have been with us since the beginning of mankind.
Obama is the cause of many of our problems, but not this one!
Mexico has outlawed guns! Can any of us agree that their anti-gun law is successful? I believe the Drug Cartels would think so....!
Obama especially hates anyone not dependent on the government!!!
If someone wants to murder people they don't need a gun...but most of our glory of guns come from gangster/mob movies...that show how wonderful it is to kill people...and there are always mentally sick who hear voices that tell them to kill...we had several children die here who have been hit with cars...before school...we are a very large country...things happen...do not glorify the evils...in our movies...car chases...shooting...one of the comments were guns are the only thing that must be removed from society they kill...but rocks can kill we watch that almost nightly for the past 10 years or so in Iraq or Isreal..we are a very large nation...in comparison to Swizerland or England...crime is bad everywhere some countries do not report in on the news...their main money makers are travel...it would scare some people away from visiting...some of our news is covered up but that is another story for us to ponder at another time...
"If we had more guns. gun violence would stop."
"If you don't want gun violence to come down on you, go armed."
That's some might screwed up logic.
People need to realize that "Gun Control" and "Banning Guns" is not the same thing. Gun control is absolutely necessary - people need to be trained to use and respect guns before they are allowed to own one. In pretty much the same way that people must know how to drive a car before they can get a license and buy a car.
For those pointing out that everyone in Switzerland has a gun, and that the crime rate is low - here is an apt analogy:
Germany has a lot of drivers, and the average speed on their highways is higher than in the US. However, the accident rate is much lower. That is because the licensing process is much much tougher. By the time someone gets their license they know how to drive, and more importantly, how to behave on the road. No one overtakes on the right, no one tailgates, slower drivers get out of the fast lane - you get the picture. As opposed to this, I got my license in Florida after a joke of a driving test - I drove around a closed circuit and was asked to park in a wide parking spot. US highways are filled with idiots who should never be in the driving seat of a car.
Similarly, we have more than our fair share of idiots who should never get a gun. Tighten the regulations, put the processes in place for testing and licensing, and then sell guns. We will all be safer.
Guns don't kill people. But guns can be used to kill people more easily. So they should be a controlled item, and only people who can prove that they can handle guns should be allowed to have them.
seldom seen,
If guns are outlawed and you have a gun , you will be an outlaw. Ergo a self fulfilling prophecy
Truthor,
You type faster thah your brain works. It was Obama that signed into law your right to carry a gun in federal parklands. Romney passed a law in Mass. prohibiting assault weapons.
You over simplify a highly complex problem with your presumptuous and condesending attitude .
This is about the economy, love, and money. Fix those problems and the world will be a better place.
ToL seems to have been raised by wolves. What would Jesus do?
By the way, nobody wants to 'take away yer guns' but to perhaps regulate to the extent that those things which can cause harm to the citizenry should be regulated, say automobiles, food, whiskey, burgulars and dope . The gun manufacturers' shills, oops I meant the NRA, won't have any of it.
Peter,
to expand on your Switzerland comment: they also have universal conscription. They are also required to re-qualify every year until they are 40. I was told that this has something to do with maintaing their neutrality. They also have a more mature attitude towards weapons of mass anihilation.
That is the right direction to travel Peter. I think the issue that one runs into is the cost for testing/training. Because gun ownership is considered a right, the classes couldn't really cost anything, as it could be then easily viewed that the training/testing was built to limit/prevent people from being able to express their freedom to own firearms.
maxgiver...(#2.13)..."so lets chat and think about the father who recently killed his own son.. he thought his son was a burgalur"
Ok, let's chat....The son was dressed all in black wearing a ski mask, middle of the night...It was his sister that lived next door, called the Dad to say someone was outside trying to break in....That's when Dad came out to protect his daughter...They didn't find out who the perp was till they removed his ski mask....Maybe the boy just wanted to scare his sister, a practical joke, ha-ha....or maybe he had the hots for her and wanted to rape her and steal her I-Phone for drugs and make it look like a rape/burglary and he would get away......They never follow up on those stories once the headline passes and another crime takes its place.....
truthorlie, you are quite a piece of work. Most of your posts have been collapsed because of your name calling. Does that make you feel good. Contrary to what you have been puking up on this forum, "Libs" are not what is wrong with this country. It is people EXACTLY like you that are wrong with this country. Your "my party is better than your party", and "my party is superior to your party, and "your party is what is wrong with this whole country and my party has done NO wrong", bull@!$%# attitude is what is wrong. You paint Democrats as animals in a zoo and Republicans would NEVER be in a zoo. Where do you get off? Is the Democratic and Republican party perfect. NO they are not. But the reason they can't work together and solve any problems is because they are too quick to point the finger and spread hate and lies. This whole campaign has been about what the other has done wrong. Nobody is telling what they are going to do right. That is because it's a broken system and we have only to thank people just like YOU. Grow up and do something to change things rather that puke hate all over this page. Stop spreading lies and calling people names. If you are a child, than shame on you. If you are an adult, then God help us all. Get a grip people. Nothing is going to change as long as people act like this and nothing is going to get better if people can't get over the racist, feminist and superiority bull@!$%#.
Obama/Biden 2012
@truthorlie you are truly a racist slob to bad I can't say what I really want to call you because I have had my account suspended a few times for telling you non thinking republicans how it is. You are insulting calling a certain race animals and then you say republicans don't act like animals! you must be ********* kidding me you piece of **** of a person! Funny your pic shows a kid pissing on something every time I see someone with that sign on their car they are normally a coward which I am sure you are! BTW we don't need more gun laws on the books, what we need to do is start enforcing them. The only reason we don't is because the money grabbing NRA, SS guardians will start crying about it.
No the issue is that when people feel wronged in this country they resort to physical force to solve their disagreements or issues that is the real problem with America not guns. In otherwords America's culture problem is not its gun culture but rather its problem solving culture.
lepere-1
You have no clue, our guns would have been taken away a long time ago if not for the framers of our constitution. When you say nobody wants to take away yer guns, you show your own ignorance of history. You are the reason we have this Constitutional right to bear arms, you would remove all guns for the sake of safety and when you found out you were wrong it would be to late. I have had a gun since I was eight and somehow magicly even, I have never had the urge to shoot anyone and never has my gun. Regulations to people like you are what I call gateway regulations, you are addicted and cannot stop making them. The person in the article was not thinking about self defense and could not care less about your laws. Laws are like a lock, they keep an honest man honest, but they do not deter the criminal. This shooter is a criminal and just laughed at all of the laws. The NRA is in no way responsible, if you want though we could blame you that would be the same thing.
@truthorlie, That's because there a lot of dumb non thinking rasist cowards who think like you on this thread. Give me a break with the bs talking point you say about the POTUS you repubs have no proof to show what you say is true and the POTUS has not passed any laws to support what you say is true. The only true communist is the extreme Tea bagging neo-con traitors who need to be thrown out of the country! Your a slob period to bad I can't ever meet you to say it to your face and dare you to try come come back with your crap!
truthorlie I am voting for him and I work two jobs and go to college. I have a gun and I believe in God. I also have a disability and have not collected one red cent from the government. Kind of breaks your mold doesn't it. You may have a lot of people voting in favor of your posts, and maybe that is what excites you. Is this the only place your hate can be projected? Does it make you feel big hiding behind a computer keyboard? There are many like you and filled with hate and disrespect. It's really sad. But continue on. The people that aren't brainwashed by Faux news and Rush Limbaugh etc. know better and they have your number. Enjoy your rants. It's your blood pressure, not mine!
Obama/Biden 2012
The problem is that we have a criminal justice system that let's criminals out of jail too early and too often. How many times do you see career criminals committing heinous crimes. We have too many district attorneys who are too worried about convictions by any means, even if it means letting a murderer who should be behind bars for the rest of their lives get away with a pleaded manslaughter conviction and they get out after 8-10 years with good behavior. Too many times, our jails and prisons have become turnstiles of letting criminals in the front doors and out the back doors with little more than a slap on the wrist.
What is wrong with man nowadays? When a woman stand up to you and said enough is enough already, you man need to step down and look the other way and leave for good. Do not ever come back with a gun or knife or beheading equipment to quiet the woman. Whoever are doing this to a woman does not deserve to be called a man.
truthorlie-
Doesn't spewing so much mindless hatred onto the comment board interfere with your busy cross-burning schedule?
All the time you spend polluting the Internet could be used to try to find some branches on your family tree, for instance...
Geo-3053278
Well said!
Republicans at least, believe in recycling. the same old tired lies, dems love abortion, dems wanna take our guns. dems this dems that. you are delusional people with no humanity. God said "thou shalt not bare false witness" . thats a commandment, NOT A SUGGESTION. I'm a liberal. And if it where up to me, I would give you all more guns so you can keep sending each other to god. And as for my guns, i use them for target practice. why? because I SHALT NOT KILL.
I heard on the radio that the NRA says Obama is the best thing that ever happened to them. Gun sales have skyrocketed.
Also I think it's hilarious how the Republicons spew nonsense re: Fast & Furious--and yet spew nonsense about how "guns don't kill people--people kill people."
Which is it? Because if it's the people killing people--why are you so bent out of shape over F&F?
Ridiculous!
Also cars are made for transportation; Guns are made for killing. Case closed.
And, every study has shown capital punishment does NOT prevent murder. (Look it up yourselves). "Don't kill or I'll kill you" doesn't seem to faze the killers.
True cars are made for transportation, but they also can be used to kill, same as any other object that the human intellect can fashion into a weapon to cause harm or damage another person.
Check out how many people are gunned down every year by law enforcement when the perp tries to use their vehicle to harm them.
In the end, whether an object has been made to kill or not, it is the human telling the object how and when to function. Guns are no different, they will fire at an inanimate target just as capably as they will a person.
The 'purpose built' argument does not wash.
None of my firearms, not even my 'oh so scary' Colt M4 AR have yet to spontaneously self animate and go on a shooting rampage. None of my 75 straight razors have animated themselves and slit anyone's throat, yet I shave with them and they do the job I tell them to.
I think you get the point.
The bad will always have guns regardless of gun laws. Better to be armed to shoot the bastards.
Like they do all over England right? Oh wait...they don't.
Everyone keeps saying that but I have yet to see a gun toter save the day. You all just think you are superman with a gun. I partially blame all the mass media for these copycat killings. There's no more working out your problems. Just kill them and everyone around them. It's a crazy world today! We can start by restoring god and religion back in peoples lives. Not give everyone guns so they can use them when they get mad. That's not the solution.
DadInAZ..you never hear of anyone shooting the shooter..that's the point. At least if you make it harder to get guns, some innocent lives might be saved. Good citizens don't walk around carrying guns and if everyone did..what a tragic mess that would be. Gun laws Have to be stricter..
Actually, Emanuel, if you will do a little research you will see a recent court case in the UK opened the door for that.
That's because in England they prefer knives.
yes, because people of different faith have always gotten along so well and peacefully resolved their problems.
The violent crime rate for England is 2300 in 100,000
The violent crime rate for the US is 469 in 100,000
You may not get shot there, but instead you get stabbed and beaten to death.
Maybe guns keep our rate lower? maybe?
A country where I have to carry a concealed weapon(gun) every time I step out of my house is not a country that is desirable or worthwhile. Also, who is to say that if one of the mass shootings happens and a person fires back at the attacker, but misses and hits an innocence. I hear about it all the time in my neck of the woods, casualties caught in the crossfire is common.
Those of you that say you have never seen a legal gun owner save the day are wearing blinders. While it isn't frequent there are stories of homeowners shooting intruders. Most encounters between an legally armed person and a thug or intruder, don't get reported, just as most shootings that involve one person shooting one other person don't get reported. There are also incidents where a gunman is scared off by someone with a legal gun, and those don't get reported.
Must live in Detroit area then, yep there is one thing nice about this country you have the freedom to leave if you want.
Mitchell1204,
You haven't seen God either, but it doesn't mean that He doesn't exist. There are numerous gun toters who have saved countless lives. You just don't know your facts. You should try finding them out, before you make comments critical of honest, law-abiding citizens who own guns and use them for purposes other than killing people. God created man with a brain, and the problem is that most don't use it for anything more than a hat rack. Guns don't kill people. People kill people. So, if you want to get rid of the crimes perpetrated with guns, get rid of people.
After all, God is going to ultimately do that anyway, when He sends His Son back to take vengence on them who know not God and obey not the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. At that time, both guns and people will be rendered irrelevant.
Lots of you against what I said. If you're so smart, you tell me how taking guns away will solve the problem? Do you really think the criminals won't be able to get any guns?
That is a good point. Maybe some of the people who are waging the liberal war on guns might offer some ideas on how they will get the guns out of the hands of the people dong this sh*t...?
Do you really believe they'll hand over their weapons if you get your wish and guns are outlawed...?
That's a pipe dream.
Happens here in Florida. Many people carry concealed weapons here and I have read several stories in the news where a homeowner has shot an armed intruder. ONe incident was only about a mile from our house. If the homeowner had not had a gun he and his wife would probably be dead instead of the armed intruder.
c'mon, mitchell. don't be such a party pooper. dad in az and johnnieonthespot just wants to have fun, and live in a world where every single person, everywhere carries a gun, and pretends he/she is the lone ranger. what fun it would be to live in a world like the one depicted in Kill Bill!
sandnomad
Saying there are facts without supplying them doesn't make them real.
------
I say educate all people about guns since they are little kids so that they when they grow up they understand responsible gun use. Just giving guns to every person won't stop the violence, it'll only increase it.
Udasai, maybe it is just the result of the difference in compiling statistics. The US does not include several crime categories that other countries do, so the numbers are skewed.
Canada, per capita, has 30% the murder rate of the US. Of these murders, 1/3 are by firearms, 1/3 are stabbings, and 1/3 are by other means (use your imagination!) The US murder rate is 70% by firearms.
Therefore, there is proof that if someone wants to kill another, it can be done with or without guns. Knives, bats, kitchen blenders, garden hose, and Chevrolets have also been used as weapons.
Mitchell you missed grandpa saving the day ??
No, just like any other politically motivated group, they spread lies and misinformation.
They said Obama would take your firearms if he was elected. How many have you had to surrender since he was elected? So, how many have been ripped from your hands in the name of Obama?
There are more than people care to admit, but that's not the argument. The argument, is that many out there think that if everyone is armed, they could deter crime. When in fact, more would die from playing hero and opening fire at what may or may not be a criminal. When those people died at the Batman movie, some suggested that if firearms were allowed inside, less would have died. However, they fail to realise how hard it is to tell the bad guy apart form the innocent when more than one person is firing. Not to mention, you're not going to hit your intended target easily in the dark.
That is my biggest gripe when it comes to defending the second amendment. I will defend it with my life, but I wont pretend that if everyone is allowed to carry 24/7 that we will be safer. I would actually be more afraid of some Dirty Harry wanna be killing innocent people because their well intentioned shooting killed more people than the actual criminal.
I have been messing around with guns, man and boy, for 65 years and while I do have a small handgun, my all time preference for home protection is a maritime flare pistol with magnesium flares. You do have to be careful though not to burn the house down and if it's someone you didn't want to shoot after all, you can always try to put them out. Just outside. And if you think to wear shades, you have time to reload if you missed by a lot.
Yet the NRA supports someone who will in control of Massachusetts instituted the Assault Rifle ban AFTER it was removed from Federal law. Gun laws in his state were a bad as any other state while UNDER HIS CONTROL. So did Romney pay off the NRA for their support? Is that how the top leaders of the NRA maintain their million dollar plus salaries? They need some fear or the membership money stops rolling in.
While all gun owners are crying about Obama and what he MIGHT do, they seem to forget they are supporting a guy who has already put laws in place that limit ownership rights.
Either Romney or the NRA is playing gun owners. Thinking that he's the savior of gun owners is a joke.
DadInAZ-3698986
Agreed 100%. A gun is the best for self-defense. There is thousands of cases of self-defense every year which are rarely mentioned in the medias, but recently a 12 year old girl used a gun to shoot 2 guys who broke into her house, she would have been defenseless without a gun, and would possibly be dead today.
Mexico's anti gun laws have been extremely beneficial to the Drug Cartels! Criminals in the USA would love to see similar anti-gun laws here!
@In Michigan-90
A country where I have to carry a concealed weapon(gun) every time I step out of my house is not a country that is desirable or worthwhile. Also, who is to say that if one of the mass shootings happens and a person fires back at the attacker, but misses and hits an innocence. I hear about it all the time in my neck of the woods, casualties caught in the crossfire is common.
Oh, you mean like the police did in New York. Or the police in California who killed an innocent jogger while chasing and firing at two people who were running away from them. Yep, happens all the time.
It isn't the gun that kills people it's the BULLETS!!! I propose we control the sale and distribution of all bullets, bullet making paraphernalia. A bad guy could beat someone over the head with an empty gun, but at least you would have a fighting chance or at least the chance to run away. Problem solved. You can keep your guns, they will become much safer without the bullets.
I totally disagree with that argument. Carrying a firearm on you in public does not make you a bad or irresponsible citizen. What new gun law do you propose would have prevented this incident?
Oh that is easy, he tried in Feb. of 2009 to reintroduce the AWB. But he failed because the Democrats sent him a letter they wouldn't support it because they were worried they wouldn't get reelected. The reason why he hasn't touched it again after that is because it isn't politically feasible at the moment for him to do it.
So you are saying that a criminal that openly saw an entire McDonald's restaurant openly carrying firearms would be just as likely to try and rob it compared to a disarmed McDonald's restaurant?
You don't have to if you don't want to in this nation. In fact I'm willing to bet if you did that in this nation your odds a pretty good you will of old age before you will get shot.
Did anyone besides me notice that the article stated the suspect was ordered to turn all of his guns? So much for gun control.
And he stated afterwords the reason he was not calling for any new restrictions on firearms was he did not have the support to insure their passage. In the last debate obama said he would like to renew the assualt weapon ban.
Professor Gary Kleck along with others have shown there are 2 million defensive uses of firearms each year. Usualy no shots are fired because the presence of the firearm and the willingness to use it are enough to deter the criminal. The reason you do not hear about these incidents is the fact that as far as the MSM is concerned "no blood no storey".
And while you're at it, how about you control the making and selling knife blades. Make them all -- including for all kitchen knives -- impossible to get. That way, no knife will ever have a blade that can be used to stab someone...
Oh, right, only law-abiding folk will actually abide such a law. Criminals just don't give a flying monkey's butt about obeying laws.
The problem with this idea is that a gun cannot stop a bullet. That is why a gun can never be used for self-defense. There may be thousands of cases of self-defense every year, but there are KNOWN cases of 10,000 people dying because of guns.
And self-defense is only necessary because our lax gun laws have made it so easy to get weapons that can kill over a hundred people in the space of a minute.
How many times have you been attacked by a 100 people at the same time? What legitimate, lawful reason do you have to be able to fire so many bullets?
How many people can you kill with a kitchen knife?
How many times have you heard "man armed with kitchen knife kills 12 people and gravely wounds 50?"
The analogy with cars is often used. Cars kill. Guns kill. Well, when I want to drive a car:
1. I have to get a license from the state to show I am competent to use a car.
2. I have to have get an identifying plate so that if my car is ever used in a crime, it can be easily traced by the cops.
3. I have to carry insurance so that if anyone is hurt with my weapon, their damage can be paid by the insurance company.
So I have to ask all these people who tell us that cars are as dangerous as guns:- You support the same for a gun, don't you?
Byron, try paying attention... it's not so much about the owners use, but the criminals knowledge of the gun owners ability.
Most semi-auto to full auto guns are used for sport, by individuals with a deep respect for it's ability.
Banning has never worked! Not with weapons, not with drugs and not with other desires of men, with no respect for laws.
Just because guns COULD be banned here, does not make it difficult to obtain. Since they can simply be snuck in by individuals in Mexico. Ammo too.
Fact is, 90% of all firearms found on known criminals were also obtained through illegal activity.
ATF compiles and cross references all the information, but unlike the NRA, they really don't want you to know much of the facts and purposely desegregate certain activity from the reporting, because it would show the facts used for the banning of firearms is tainted.
Question for all those for banning guns, if firearms are going to be banned, what will police officers use? After all, Police are no strangers to domestic violence in their private lives. If you ban from them, what about the National Guard and other Military?
I would like to draw your attention to the several shootings on/around miltary bases, by American soldiers... on innocent bystanders...
How about we just say America is totally anti-firearms... while we are at it, just vote in Sharia Law to replace the Constitution and start killing gay, outspoken women and Aethists now... because you take away the most basic of self-defense, you leave yourself vulnerable to those who wish us dead.
The reason why most terrorists use bombs is because most "key" locations have armed security... otherswise they would gladly employ tactics like they do elsewhere in the world, which is typically involving armed vs. unarmed.
And those that use the European Union as an example, you might want to actually look at the pending changes they are working for, in the area of armed defense. Save yourself from losing face.
The main reason people with guns can't/don't save the day mitchell 1204 and others who commented on that, is because we aren't allowed to carry guns in public (another point showing that the vast majority of gun laws only affect those who abide by the laws), and if we were to use a gun to "save the day" there would be a ton of liberal attorneys suing us for some reason which only an idiot liberal would think makes sense. For example; if you're being raped and beaten, even disfigured, you will be throw in jail and your life ruined if you were to shoot and kill this person. ONLY a liberal would think up such a law... In my book if you rape a woman and you get shot, even killed as a result then you deserved it! If you shoot people like this freak did and someone shoots/kills you to make you stop then you deserved it 100%, but idiot liberals actually think people like that have rights and should be treated as if they didn't even commit the crime!
So you ask why someone doesn't pop out of the woodwork and shoot a guy like this? Because our 2nd amendment (that shall not be infringed) has been infringed to the point we can's legally protect ourselves or others in such a situation. Plus if we dare to shoot such a freak which clearly deserves to be killed, we ourselves could very easily be looking at prison time which for the normal Joe would completely ruin his life! If I were in said situation I would hesitate because I know that I would most likely be sacrificing myself in the process even tho I'm doing the right thing. If I did act and shoot this freak A-hole I would run like hell to avoid getting arrested. It's a shame we live in a world like this where not only our rights have basically been taken away, but people like you have been brainwashed into believing that owning a gun or using it in defense is wrong. Sure a violence free world would be nice, but it's not real, it doesn't and won't ever exist! Meanwhile there will always be freaks of nature who try to harm and even kill innocent people, and regardless of laws these people will not obey the law. I don't know what kind of dream world the liberal lives in, but it's not realistic and it will never be a reality. When you ban guns the only people who will not have them are the people who would never use a gun in a crime in the first place. You've heard it before; guns don't kill people, people kill people. If people were punished for using a gun in a crime then gun crimes would drop, but as long as the punishment is so lenient we will continue to have this problem... If more honest people were allowed to own and carry guns then these freaks would think twice about using a gun in the first place. As it stands guys like this know they can shoot all they want without worry because everyone is unarmed. Imagine if 25-50% of people carried a gun, do you really think this would've happened? Imagine if people were not only allowed to carry, but they could actually shoot a freak like this without worrying about lawsuits or prison like a cop can. When I was kid lots of people carried, not just concealed, but openly, in their car/truck etc., and the majority of people were armed at home too. Guess what the crime rate was, guess how many people were shot, raped? Basically any major crime was huge headline news, not like today where it's a small note on page 12. The difference: Guns. That and peoples attitude toward them. Back then they didn't have the liberal agenda of making guns out to be bad and not good for anything but killing people. What I don't get is why, why do they have this stance? I can see it today because polititions use it to get votes, but they only get votes becuase the people have already been brainwashed. Unless they had some serious foresight and planning I can't see why they started it in the first place. Maybe it's just the governments intent to disarm us, they've trying to do that for decades if not longer, so maybe the liberals and politicians have just been surfing the wake of that wave. The gov can't simply ban guns because the people would fight it, so what they do is brainwash people into agreeing with their goal. Not agree that guns should be banned because that's what the gov wants, but to make the people (idiots) believe guns are bad which will make the transition of a ban much easier. The gov takes little baby steps like banning just one gun, or something like the amount of bullets a gun can hold, its caliber, it's power, etc etc. Things people won't fight too much about. Then after time they've got quite the collection of laws. If for example they tried to make all the gun laws they have today all at once they would not succeed, the people wouldn't stand for it, but little by little they have succeeded! You have to wonder why the gov wants unarmed? Germany wanted the jews unarmed before they took over. Basically any government who wants to take control of the people will ban guns first. So ask yourself why they want us unarmed....
I'm probably not making sense to may if not most people, especially those who've been raised during the brainwashing done thru TV and the media who only portray guns as being bad and having no place in modern society. Or those who have never been a victim of a crime that could've been prevented with a gun. And of course liberals and gays (same thing for the most part) who can't comprehend the need to guns, not just the need but desire. Desire to own and use a gun is something many people don't understand. Like owning a performance car, some would say why do you need a car that goes faster than the speed limit? All I can say to that is if you have to ask then it's beyond your comprehension... However the fact remains that many people like performance cars, jsut as many like to own and shoot guns. Surprise surprise but guns are very rarely ever used to commit a crime or to kill a person, people use them because they want to and they enjoy it. I've even converted a few people myself who thought they were nothing more than a tool used to kill. Once they shoot a gun they realize how much fun it is, and the fact that it can kill is as meaningless as the fact that cars can kill as well. The difference is the gov and liberal idiots brainwash people that guns were made to kill and cars were not, never mind the fact that cars kill far far far more people in the US than guns do or ever will. I like guns and fast cars, if I can save a life with either I will, that is if I can do it without my life being ruined by liberal idiots, the gov, and their agendas.
I'm probably wasting my time because most people don't have two IQ digits to rub together, and those who are intelligent don't need to be told this. I guess I'm just blowing off steam, steam created by the ignorant who vote and affect my personal life in a negative way so they can be PC, or think they're being PC. Idiots...
Byron... seriously.. How many people can you kill with a kitchen knife? Many, in fact, it's the typical weapon in a domestic dispute filing. But they like to break it down to type of knife, and use terms like hunting knife, butcher knife, etc...
Byron, you said... . I have to get a license from the state to show I am competent to use a car.
There are literally thousands of citations written daily across the US for people driving without a license, many of which had it revoked because they acted incompetent.
Byron you said... I have to have get an identifying plate so that if my car is ever used in a crime, it can be easily traced by the cops.
And those license plates are held on by 2-4 bolts, and take literally seconds to remove. And often are...
Byron you said... I have to carry insurance so that if anyone is hurt with my weapon, their damage can be paid by the insurance company.
Now, please explain why there are more applications for an SR-22 filing than any other document, daily through the Dept of Transportation? BTW, SR-22 is the proof of financial responsibility form, it's required when you get a citation for no insurance.
In States like California, it's estimated 1 in 10 vehicles on the road are not insured for key problem areas, such as Los Angeles...
Also, many people have been triad and convicted of "Vehicular Homicide"... so much, they actually had to define vehicular manslaughter and homicide in the Law.
Seriously.. anyone that wishes to act out their aggressions don't need much. A 2 liter of bleed and ammonia can do far more damage than a firearm.
Heck, 8 Muslims took out how many people with 2 jet liners? How many people died in OKC from 2 guys with a moving van? How many peopel did Charles Manson's people kill with a gun?
How many people did the known serial killers from history kill, and how many of them used a gun?
I have a serious question... if the perpitrator KNEW his estranged wife had a gun... do you honestly think he would have still attempted it?
The fact is, he KNEW she would be unarmed, so there was no fear of failure.
People carrying guns does not reverse crimes, it deters them. Individuals consider when/where victims will be vulnerable and avoid when they are not... period.
You don't what the shooter knew. stfu.
The argument "if guns were banned then only criminals would have guns" does not apply to most of the shootings in this country. Most of the people who commit these murders have obtained their weapon legally. Having a gun just makes it that much easier to seek vengeance. And don't give me that crap argument "anything can be used to kill someone". It is a lot more difficult to kill one person or a group of people with a knife or your bare hands than it is with a gun.
That being said, I am not for taking away everyone's guns. But we need to do something about these shootings becoming an every day occurrence. I think one thing we could do is toughen up as a society and stop suing or shooting every time someone gets their feelings hurt. People these days are just too emotionally fragile. I don't know whether to blame Godlessness, political correctness or what, but it is pathetic.
Todd, Cars, knives, clubs, rocks, etc., don't kill, neither do guns. It's the people at control of the car or gun, knife, club, rock, etc. that do. Even if guns were banned and all confiscated, down here along the Arizona/Mexiighanistan border guns can easily be had by anyone. Contrary to popular belief, one can buy top-shelf hardware and cheaper than the junk sold here in the states. Even the currently banned magic that goes Boom can and is being bought in Mexico! Won't hear that from the media! I walk through many a parking lot and have never been harmed by a car! Been to many a Big-5, Cabella's, Dick's Sporting Goods, etc. and have never been harmed by a gun either. Not even the mysterious phantom self-firing Remington 700!! of which I own a handfull, two since 1980! Never had a use or reason to own any firearm until Uncle drafted me and put one in my hands. Served as a Corpsman/Designated hitter, 2/9 Black Holes, 2nd Marines. The only hunting I've ever done was for the bi-pedal enemy while I was in Uniform. I own that hardware because that was what I was issued and they are what I am familiar with. Never had the need to hunt animals ever, when I could go to the market. Still don't see myself taking that beautiful animal down today! Won't do it. Todd, another reason why another gun-toting person didn't take out this fool is because he/her might be mistaken to be the offending shooter and be shot by somebody else down the chain! The shooting in Tucson bore this to be true.! Bottonline is I am born and raised American, did my hard-time in Uniformed service and living in among all the implements that have been proved to be deadly only in the hands of people is part of being an American. People kill people! Todd, I have tons of experience treating GSWs, bomb, fire, knive, rock, club and car damage to humans thanks to humans, not the implement. People kill!
If all of the bystanders were armed, there would have been a bloodbath caused by panicked, random shooting. The lunatics who harbor insane fantasies that this sort of mass murder would be stopped by a well armed public are lying to themselves, not to the rest of us. Guns are made to kill things. The more they become available, the greater the opportunity for meaningless acts of violence to occur.
These poor people died on the alter of the Second Amendment and that is fine with gun enthusiasts, isn't it? At least they still have their deadly toys.
Byron Raum, you are using a logical argument on illogical people.
The NRA has frightened and brainwashed Americans for one purpose: $$$$$$$$$$$ Gun sales were dropping steadily and they couldn't allow that.
American gun craziness is just more evidence of conservative gullibility.
I read many times that you can't stop criminals from obtaining firearms. Considering that the majority of criminals committing crimes with firearms actually bought their weapons legally before they committed their crimes and became criminals, I would have to agree with the statement that you cannot stop criminals from obtaining firearms,
Ban handguns.
More people dead, so let's pause for the requisite whining about how guns are better and more important than anything else in the whole wide world. Please, Mommy, don't take away my gun! Whine, whine, whine, bang, bang, bang.
If everybody were armed... the world would have a lot more holes in it.
All I hear is gun control and anti-gun control.... Shut up already... sheesh! The gun fanatics are right though... if everyone had a gun then this s*** wouldn't happen! Imagine the biblical days when everyone had a blade or fists... If you wanted to kill/murder somebody then you better be prepared to die yourself, because melee combat gives both sides a chance. Same concept here, if you give everyone guns then people would be a lot less motivated to do this s***! These people are cowards and wouldnt do @!$%# if they knew random joe on the corner could put them down before they did any harm!
Also... Why isn't anyone questioning our justice system?! As being a single father myself, I understand the hardships the justice system puts in place for us just because we are "men". My daughters mother is a alchohalic and abusive(tried to stab me more than once) yet the courts alwasys took her side! Even though she has two domestic violence battery charges! Our system also breeds these type of "revenge" mass killers.
We have a lot of things to evaluate as a society, so don't let our right to defend ourselves get in the way of what is important!
Maybe with all the mass shootings taking place in Wisconsin our Wacko governor and the NRA will take some of the blame for putting all those guns in the hands of people who kill family friends and neighbors with no thought of protecting their property or life!
Did he shoot his wife? It would be nice to know if she was there and still alive, or was this a random shooting where she worked?
Sort of like if everyone had beer coming out of their faucets instead of water, we'd have less drunkenness.
Well said, kaybeetoys.
To all the people calling for stricter guns laws, let me drop some FACTS on you. If you add up all the gun control and regulation laws CURRENTLY on the books (that's a all federal, state county, city and the District of Columbia) it adds up to 27,738, which largely go unenforced. So why not enforce those strictly, like for example the law that makes possession of gun, any gun, by a convicted felon, they are supposed to go to prison for ten years. As per the National firearms act of 1934. As for the person who said "handguns, Rifles, and Assault weapons. First an Assault weapon is a select fire weapon of intermediate caliber. These can only legally be possessed by those expressly licensed by the BATF&E. Civilian ownership of select fire,i.e. full auto weapons has also been severely restricted since 1934. As of May 1986, NO full auto of any caliber may be assembled, manufactured, registered or transferred for civilian use. So your argument of assault weapons is fiction, they are just ugly semi-autos. NOT THE SAME THING.
Criminals do not adhere to the law, hence the term criminal. They will get guns regardless of what law or ban is in place. Street Drugs are illegal, are they gone? No, they are not. Drunk driver kill thousands every year, why no call to ban cars? All you will do is give those outside the country another profit opportunity, only it will be criminals buying the black market guns. You people need to wake up and smell you brains burning with stupidity. Prohibition has never worked and never will. The last prohibition only made people rich like Joseph Kennedy, Al Capone, the Colombo's, Gambino's etc.
So no guns equal a peaceful society does it? Then explain Switzerland. Every citizen between 18 and 50 are required to submit to military training and exorcises. Each citizen male and female are then sent home with a side arm and a machine gun. So that's at least one hand gun and one machine gun in every home in the country. After age 50 the machine is converted to semi-auto only and the "retiree" retains possession of it as "reserve" personal. So where's the blood bath? It's not the gun it's the intent of the user, i.e. person.
I give you a quote from a Democrat today's liberals love to use as an example, Thomas Jefferson, "Those that would beat their guns into plows, will plow for those who do not". This is equally true toady.
Right. Shooters who kill innocent people make the papers -- all those armed citizens who save the day or save themselves don't make it into the headlines. It's a conspiracy. Right.
This guy got into financial trouble and his wife left him...nothing new. I love how supportive wives are these days of their husbands in this country. He was only the sales manager at dealership which should have been an over 100k a year position depending on the sales. I do not know either, so I can only guess what drove him to do this. My condolences to the families.
Since everyone has already turned this into a gun post I figured I would add my 2 cents. I have my guess as to what caused this and I think we can thank some of the super rich for driving our economy into the ground all so that they could get even richer then they already were, and that money can sit in a bank doing nothing. Maybe had they not been so greedy more people would be alive or married today.
We could ACTUALLY try looking at other countries that have tried to outlaw guns, but that would be to easy just like looking back at history. Look at Australia and what happened when they tried to outlaw guns. The biggest difference if how close you live to the police. If you are in a big country that is spread out, people need more guns since it takes longer for the police to respond and get there. There are logistics involved. In small overcrowded countries it is another story. Harder for a gang to overtake an area without other knowing about it. Whether or not they call the cops is up to them. Many would rather die then be labeled as a snitch, but they are listening to the gang members that already outnumber them and bully them...WTF?
You ever try shooting at something that is shooting back at you? You ever try to shot a gun at all? How do you know how many rounds one might need? You might miss and it might take more then one round to kill depending on where you hit them. There is no TIME OUTS, BREAKS, or "That's not fair". Your gun better work or your a$$ is grass. How long does it take to reload a clip? Long enough to get shot that is how long. Most people never keep their guns fully loaded I hate to break it to you. Unless you like wearing out the spring in your clips really fast or shot often you are better off not fully loading a magazine. In the military most will leave out at least a round or two to increase the life of the springs and aid in long term storage so that when you DO need it it WORKS. 27 rounds for a 30 round clip is the norm, I have seen some put in even less for long term storage. A gun in the right hands is deadly no matter how many rounds it holds. 100+ round clips actually jam much more then smaller standard magazines do once again due to the springs. It takes a bunch of force to lift up all those heavy shells in a short enough time to get the weapon to cycle and not jam. Most handguns have even smaller clips and are used more in violent crimes. Most guns can fire hundreds of rounds in a row by just feeding them ammo, nothing really new about any of the technology people just get hung up on the name "assault" rifle. If it had a better name people would not flip out them so much over it. Not to mention if this country ever was in a war/battle here at home people that have guns in the SAME caliber as the military can ACTUALLY help the military. We don't need guns supplied to us, we brought our own.
The NRA is nothing, but a self serving interest. They get paid lots and lots of money to stay in power. They are one big lobbying group and I will not join them even though I am a gun person. They have more then enough power for their own good and could do with less.
JimBob;
You be the judge. I local pawn shop owner shot and kill two of three armed robbers who entered his shop and began shooting. This happened yesterday the 20th. If you heard about it and name the city, then you may have a point. If you can't, then it not making national headlines is true. Media does not run national stories involving the legal use of guns to stop crime, it hurts their anti-gun cause. So let's hear it, where did this happen?
This is a domestic violence issue, not a gun issue. Who else had a gun or didn't is irrelevant. He was ordered by the court to turn over his weapons because that's federal law. Where he got the guns is irrelevant.
It is federal law that any person who has a restraining order out against them are not allowed to possess firearms. But the law expects that people will just be good, comply and turn over their guns. This legal requirement shouldn't be done on the "honor system". There needs to be strict limits and consequences for failing to comply. That is the problem, not guns.
i have owned guns for over thirty years never killed a person with my guns , i wonder if they are defective ??
Just once I'd like to see a gun article where someone doesn't say; guns don't kill people, people kill people. That has to be the stupidest comment ever...okay, maybe not ever, but it has to be high on the chart. Do these people have a quarter slot where you just drop in a coin and out comes - guns don't.............
My heart goes out to the victims who have lost their loved ones in a thoughtless and selfish tragedy.
As for all the stricter law ideas. All we can do is make it more difficult for people to obtain guns, we will never fully be able to control whether violent people (or people who become violent) posess them.
A world in which people all live kindly with one another has no need of laws against violence because such a lifestyle is natural. A world in which we have hundreds, if not thousands of laws against violent crimes suggests that our history has revealed factions of violence within us. I would feel better knowing that at least I can protect my family better should the need arise, if I were armed.
As to the self-defense success stories. The mainstream media does not report those stories but they do exist and quite abundantly. The reason you don't hear about them is because they are not commonly reported. I don't know what the angle is in the media for that, however. I don't trust them.
Jp Patches, comments don't write themselves .. computers do ! Oh Snap you don't even take credit for your own opinions !!!
NEW gun laws would not prevent a case like this. Here's an example of a POS who by virtue of his criminal past,and documented abuse,is BANNED from ever touching a gun,or even being in the same household as a firearm.....and the POS was out on the street with multiple violations of a legal order..INSTEAD of in jail.......yeah,..more laws will stop him.........I went through a LONG background check,where they went back 20 years,checked legal, checked for mental background,and what prescriptions I was on,in order to qualify for my CWP......long and involved,but effective......U.S. Army Disabled Veteran.
In Michigan you don't have to carry a gun I don't but I live in a state where many people do. If someone starts to give me grief and I give them the street look they don't know do I or don't I? If they keep it up they find out the reason I don't about the time they are looking up from the ground wondering how they got there.
Since the radical feminists have hijacked our legislatures, the law does not allow men in his situation many other options.
What is that, Michael_from_Bishop??? You mean if women ask for divorce they should get killed? Are you crazy?
It seems to me that hair salons are the problem. If we ban hair salons there can be no hair salon murders!!!
As funny as that sounds, you may be onto something!
and movie theatres, and wal marts
...or, at least require that anyone who enters such a place have a loaded gun!
I love the misreporting of the shooters car, first, it was a 2006 mazda and few seconds later, it was a 2003! WTF?
OMG Jim...how could ANYone make such a serious mistake!!!! It just shows how far our educational standards have fallen!!!
right, jngle. we should just shoot anyone driving either model -- just to be safe!
If we ban cars no more drunk drivers, if we ban alcohol no more alcohol ..... O wait proabition that did not lead to organized crime.....
Wrong folks, salons are not the problem here, domestic violence against women is the problem. Since salons often times have a casual environment it's easy for an estranged male to access the female's workplace. A vindictive person does this to create terror for everyone he percieves as a threat and punish the woman he's estranged from by harming or killing her and her support system of co-workers.
I am sure if she had a gun this ugly animal was'nt going in there and spree himself shooting down the people ao easily. the animal was ordered to hand over his weapons to the authorities, but he think twice before doing so and clean the slate in his atyle.
MTG... Tired of this Domestic Violence against women s***!!! Women are not always the victims... How about your feminist self tries just using the phrase "domestic violence". Has the same effect, just doesn't make you sound like a another feminist blinded by your hate for men. k?
ps: feminist = woman who loved a @!$%# man and got screwed over / lesbian
MTG is right. This is a domestic violence issue. The signs are all there.
And Nick, you're an idiot.
that's it.!! This has made up my mind.!!
I am getting a concealed Weapons Permit and I do not care what you gun control lunatics say.!!
All of these mass shootings have one thing in common.. 1 Person With A Gun Can Shoot A Lot Of People When Everyone Else Is Defensless. Even in Waukesha County Wisconsin, where it is the most like a police state or a comunist country than even chicago is, 1 immigrant's son with a gun can do a lot of damage and kill people who have nothing to do with the personal problems of the shooter.
You socialist sheep will try to get as many victims as you can, to push your anti-constitution agenda, You should be happy that this maniac did this, it is juice for your koolaid.
I swear that I will have a ccw permit by the end of the year..
It did not take long for the media to get this shooter's father on the phone and broadcast it on their network. He is a Jamaican immigrant who don't seem to know what it is to be an american..
This was Not a Random act. This guy had a restraining order and was ordered by a court to turn in his guns. He did not obey the court order and targeted his wife, and shot innocent bystanders who were defensless.
Finally, he shot himself.
The SWAT Teams, with all of their training, could not tell a regular propane torch, left from a construction site, from an IED, and there was a lockdown and the shooter's residence was searched while the shooter was laying dead at the scene.
I testified in a Homicide case several years ago, and the police and district attorney told me that, "we cannot protect you". so I will have to be prepared to defend myself.
Excellent. One more blithering idiot throwing gas on the fire. Why not carry a hand grenade while you're at it?
Sailcat grenade's are illegal, how about you go and be a victim all you want, BUt do not Do not put my family infront of your sad, helpless, defenseless, incompetent self.... your life and your inability to be willing to give it value have no right to place my life or the lives of my loved ones in harms way...
Your understand that don't you? if you do not value your life. if you believe you do not have a right to your own well being ... then you have every right to go and be a victim... but you will not and can not put my family or myself in harms way..
I value my life and i value the lives of my family .. just because you believe your life is worthless does not mean you can make us victims !
Since the radical feminists have hijacked our legislatures, the law does not allow men in his situation many other options.
I hope he shoots a few of crooked cops
What does this have to do with crooked cops? Most cops are good and they put their life on the line to keep us safe. What do you think our lives would be without them?
you're disgusting
You also hope there is a cop around when you need one....Don't be a fool.
truth or lie... have you noticed that your icon is p!ss!ng on what you write every time? Saves me from having to do it... Thanks!
You are an idiot
Cold eyes, drop the pipe needle and spoon. Clean up that dope-hazed window you see the world from!
Another act murder, America seems like it is a very violent place these days. Random acts of violence occur far too often and nobody seems to know the answer to a solution.
I'm shocked that you're just now realizing this. The world has always been a very violent place. Here's a solution, kill off all the humans. No more violence. Problem solved.
Instead of giving them a slap on the hand, kill them within weeks of being found guilty. That includes not only murderers, but for armed robbery, child molestesr, women abusers and white collar theives. There are no real conseqeunces for committing crimes these days. Getting arrested for pot will get you more years than killing someone. Fricking backward court system with dirtbag defense lawyers and juries so stupid that they can't separate reality from lies.
The violence doesn't happen more often today...we just have more widespread news coverage so you hear about more of them.
Kids growing up playing violent video games and bombarded with gun violence with all the movies and tv shows out there now. And it's a very stressful time to live in nowadays, yes, that is NO excuse for this at all!! And I have a gun, love to go to the range and target shoot as well is self defense. But parents need to start paying attention to their kids, love them, discipline them, show them right from wrong, get them into as much non violent games as possible, watch the old tv shows that taught more family values and none of this life in prison crap!! Death penalty and go thru with it, one shot in the arm or head, maybe it just might deter those who think of shooting someone!
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." Albert Einstein
America has become the country for mobsters. We are ran by the mob, and all the laws that are put into place are to protect them and their sinister ways. The law only works when one of theirs are threatened or attacked. Romeny said it all. America don't owe you anything, it is all about them and them controling the world. If you try to regulate them, they will see that they sock it to you, and blame it on the one that is trying to make things right. etc. 10 commandments, Moses was always attacked when Pharoe put curses on them. But even when things was going good because of Moses, they always continued to worship Pharoe who only goal was to make them slaves to him, and even though they were poor and abused, they worshiped him because he was wealthy, and prosperous off the backs of the slaves.
No, dee dee, it is very clear the answer is to get rid of guns. Ban them. Here today is yet another tragedy when easy access to guns has forever tramatized many more people than just the ones that were shot. The real root of the gun violence in the U.S. is the immoral greed of the gun manufacturers the NRA and gun lobbys. As long as they're raking in the big bucks they really have no consideration for the safety and welfare of society. People here in the U.S. worship money and not God. All this must change or we will see more and more mass shootings and killings.
right, dad in az! but, why give them a couple weeks? or, a trial? if everyone has a gun like you want, we could just drill them on the spot!
JeanValjean", did you not read the article? The suspect was "banned" from possesing guns, ordered to turn them in! See how well banning works!
My friends they whom have the hot iron in their hands knows how hot the heat burns...Living with me you'll know me better than the people out there. Domestic problems is a monster in the humans lives Some unfaithfullness help fumes these types of deadly violence. And some Americans men folks love women to work and hand over their earning to them as though it belongs to them...AFRICAN BLACK !!!lawd its murder.
Jean, Down here along the Arizona/Mexighanistan border (you know, where your fellow Americans get their dope from) we'll just cross the invisible border into Mexico and get our guns there. Even the magic that goes BOOM can be had down here. Narcos don't want anymore over-priced American junk. Former warring- nations like the Balkans are selling their excess no longer used hardware to the Narcos! That's how a once- warring nation boosts its economy. You'd be surprised at how easy it is to now buy hardware from Mexico. Top-shelf and cheaper than the junk sold here in the States. Then Americans will be getting illegals, guns and dope from Mexico. Gotta have that gun to protect that dope Americans need to have! So much for your banning of guns. How are hundreds of millions of guns gonna be taken from those who have 'em. Not enough jail cells, not enough employed to pay fines, etc. We got tons of ill-fitting folks with guns. I just wanna be able to shoot back until the cops show up!
You could'nt find a better name for the suspect. He really look like something weird. I could imagine how he must have tortured the living daylight out of that family before it reach to this end of this rope.
Its sad , that this did not happen at a mall but its being said its a mall thing, and no front page saying Ex spouse attacks wife ... but hay if you have to spin things to change an election go for it.
My home town newspaper ran an article today , 1 day before early voting, about how business are effected by obama care but no mention about the personal , the tax's that will be placed on the average citizen ... sad so sad that today's media is out to get us..
God bless and God speed your gonna need it America
Men have few options when it comes to domestic and child custody issues. Give us a reasonable chance at surviving a divorce and give us custody of our children and this kind of thing will not happen. Forget all of the feminist/lesbian caveats - they are all petty and meaningless when someone looses their life.
Its to late to have the government take away my guns.There are to many sick people that have them also.
I would hate to be a victim because i was not allowed to defend myself, I would hate to have a wife beating , criminal , who was supposed to turn over his firearms , show up and attack myself or my family.
I nor my family will every be victims as long as god graces me with the capacity to defend myself.
Cant wait for someone to play the race card about the angry white male...
Oops this one's black!
Oh well, try again next time.
You're actually the first person to throw out any type of race card. Congrats. Are you personally feeling that insecure that you had to bring race into this?
Beth
You're right with your observation. I am shocked that they mentioned race at all, seeing how it is a black man who did the shooting.
Now Now kids, play nice, anyone who can pull a trigger can kill, regardless of color, sex, or age.
You guys can argue all you want but the article I just read said an "ethnic" male. What the hell is an "ethnic" male? Political correctness is going to kill us off, not guns.
Another criminal , that should not have had guns.. but hay , if your in a gang you should not have a firearm... then again you should not have dope, crack, and herion... how many of these things need to be made ???
whats that it takes a whole farm, and proscesssing to make both crack and herion... but its illegal , however did this criminals get these items...
Grow up america and stop paying for the hate and violence that is perpetrated on honest citizens.
If you make alcohol illegal the mobs that ran the boot leg trade have not profits to pay for there things..
You are no that stupid America wake the F up
Soon the anti-gun people will begin spewing...
they already are
yep. nice shooting, spesetfides!
I wish the WAR on women and children would cease in this country.
Odogma said " we will just furnish guns to the illegals" and get all the single gangster parents on welfare, that way they don't show up as unemployed
If i had Obama's son he would ... really ..... I do have a son , and I would never let him do such things...
I grew up knowing , deep down in my soul that if I ever did such a thing ... or even so much as thought of bringing harm to another person ... my father would bring down the wrath of God himself upon my@$$,
You ever go and cut a branch from a tree... .. and get wooped by it ! Won't do that again...
Grow up America.. or if you can't go talk to your father for he may help you along the way.
Who said republicans don't recycle? Every four years I hear the same old recycled lies lies from them with certainty. "DEMS WILL TAKE YOUR GUNS." "DEMS LOVE ABORTIONS" dems are this dems are that. same old crud. God said NOT to Bare false witness. that was not a suggestion but rather a COMMANDMENT. If it where up to me i'd send all you repubs free gUns and free ammo so you can send yourselves to god quicker. As for my guns< I use them for target practice.> Why? BECAUSE i SHALT NOT KILL. thats why
hmm...it does seem to be a lot of violence in the news lately. I mean, you got that little blond girl killed on the way to school, the Starbuck's barista, etc..there are more of course...this...it does make you question why one person lives and another one dies in the grand scheme?
What the hell is a "Ethnic Male" ??? is that another word for someone who looks like Obama's boy?
Informed.... go back to school and answer your own question. I think the naked guy looks like your son.
another american tragedy... prayers for the victims, the police & the families.
praying for the victims, praying for the law enforcement, and praying for the nation
another hair salon shooting,,,weird,,,hope the cops get the guy and people are ok
And lawlessness abounds....
shhhhhh dont tell the others, crime rates are the lowest they have been in a very long time. Whatever you do, don't suggest they look at the FBI crime stats. lets not tell anyone . /facepalm
People were shot close to a park, near a wal-mart,by a bus station, at a hair salon.... near a mall.... in Milwaukee.
I think whoever writes this crap needs to be fired.
more senseless american violence. prayers for the victims, police & families.
I'm glad the constitutional rights of the victims were upheld . . .wait, I mean the constitutional rights of the shooter . . . :rolleyes:
Still there will be tens of millions who will defend the shooter and his right to own that gun that took out those victims! :rolleyes:
The continuing demise of America . . .
When someone violates someone else's rights, you punish the violator. You don't punish everyone else. How would you have liked it if everytime one of your brothers or sisters did something wrong your dad spanked you too?
Well, lets wait and see, it could be the shooter was a convicted felon out on parole and actually had no constitutional rights to have a firearm.
I'm going to stop getting my hair cut.
That's exactly why I cut my own hair. My gun digs into my side sitting in the barbers chair.
Will at least one of you fools read more than the headline? The guy had NO legal right to own a gun, and was ordered to turn them in! Nobody's crying about his right to own a gun.
Wasn't there another salon shooting just the other day? I think 4 people were killed and the shooter commited suicide. What is up with these type of murders???
It's a woman thing, I don't think the rest of us will truly understand.
Scissors don't stand up well against a gun, lol.
You know what they say, " don't bring scissors to a gun fight"!
Tss, the answer is guns. That's the answer. They should all be outlawed or, at the very least the handguns.
I too hope the innocents recover soon.
Look at Switzerland where each home is armed with an automatic weapon you will find they have about zero gun crime. Zero shootings at gun shows and shooting ranges also.
So I think the solution is to arm well trained good people and the thugs will know they have no chance, this will cause less crime.
Always secure weapons out of reach of children, no excuse for accidents.
Todd Green - Several other western European countries (and Japan) also have extremely low violent crime rates, and yet very, very few members of the general population are allowed to own guns.
Mexico has gun control, and it's not a safe place. Japan has gun control, and it's a very safe place.
In other words, there isn't much of a correlation between "the percentage of people in a country who own guns" and the crime rates of the country. The answer to high rates of gun violence in certain nations isn't "give everyone guns," nor is it "take away all the guns." It's a cultural problem.
Mexico is a safe place. ARE you and IDIOT or what??
"JeanValjean"
Tss, the answer is guns. That's the answer. They should all be outlawed or, at the very least the handguns.
I'm sure you'll be much happier in quiet, peaceful Mexico where guns have been banned for many years!
"JeanValjean"
"Tss, the answer is guns. That's the answer. They should all be outlawed or, at the very least the handguns."
Yeah-that's working out great for Chicago right? Handguns are pretty much banned in Chicago-the city also has the most restrictive gun laws of any U.S. city,yet there are more gun crimes,and gun deaths in Chicago than anywhere else in the U.S.
Mexico has some of the most restrictive gun laws of any country-yet they have the highest rate of gun crimes.
Get it yet? Gun bans/gun control do NOT work-never have,never will-all a gun ban would do is take guns away from those who DO NOT commit crimes with them-the criminals will always have guns-a gun ban just opens up a new black market for guns.
Why is it whenever a gun crime is committed-people like yourself want to take the guns away from those who DID NOT commit a crime?
Hair Salons fill the air with noxious chemicals that affect the brain much like PCP. We need to immediately ban all beauty products until you can prove my hypothesis wrong!
@Cybercraig, you might not be too far off regarding noxious chemicals. As for banning beauty products you'll have a harder time then with guns themselves.
But those fumes, man can't you smell those fumes.
At least Charleton Heston is dead. He won't be able to go there and do a big speech for the NRA, like he did so many times after a tragic shooting.
Utter bull@!$%#!
List dates and locations,and what shooting it was that he was giving a speech in response to.
I hope the cops kill the scumbag!!
I hope the hair dressers do it !
I would say it's another custody issue thing here. Man gets shafted AGAIN, takes law into own hands ( since Family Court Judges won't make right decisions ). Either wanted his children for visitation ( usually denied by Mom ) OR placed in the streets due to unfair Child support payments ( usually used in places like this for someone other than the child ).
Sounds like the courts made the right decision here. You want to give custody to a psychopath?
If the courts did the right things the guy wouldn't have to take matters into his own hands to protect his children. How about we make cheating on a spouse a felony. And divorce not possible for couples with children under 18. Own up to your responsibilities and raise your children right and quit obsessing about your own selfish wants.
Since the radical feminists have hijacked our legislatures, the law does not allow men in his situation many other options.
Deranged cop shoots innocent victim...Let's take away all the guns from cops cuz one was screwed up.
I'm for that, i'm tired of the pricks shooting at me everytime i commit a crime.
Maybe the person offended by your crime should be shooting at you.
Lets just have a shootout. Everyone can take a shot...guess that won't work either. Unless everyone is a lousy shot.
Since America is such a dangerous place to live you might want to move to Syria or one of those peaceful countries in the Mid East.
+1
:)
Ya...Over there they only chop off your head..
The rent is outrageous there.
So let's get this straight. The countries we compare our beloved USA to are Syria, Afghanistan, Sudan, Libya,Somalia and other assorted fun spots in order to prove the point that we are not an unsafe country. How sad and depressing.
Shouldn't we compare our country to the least violent countries such as those of central and northern Europe, Japan, Indonesia, and Australia/New Zealand? Hey, they have better educated people and we have better shooters. It's a push.