He killed a man of God...God killed him.

What a shame that worthless god didn't step in a little sooner and actually save the pastor. Lazy bum.

before you all get on the bandwagon, i want to know what the pastor did to warrant making the other guy mad enough to beat him to death......with a guitar, no less.....

Why a worthless God...we all have our stamp...the pastor was stamped for that day.

He killed a man of God...God killed him.

“I struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realize life is that gift from God. And, I think even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen.”

See how this line of thinking breeds irrational and irrepressible logic?

Religion is poison ... have a nice day :)

If the pastor was "stamped" for that day, then wasn't the killer doing gods work? But if the pastor being killed wasn't god's plan, why didn't he stop the killer from killing the pastor?

Unfortunately, logic typically trumps god.

On another note, I want to know the motive. I bet he slept with the guy's wife, or something equally interesting.

Keep in mind your god likes to play games with human lives. There's no other explanation why he lets crazy things happen for no reason, either that or he's so insecure that he's aways testing your faith.

Polytheism makes so much more sense... or an absent god... or none at all.

Somewhere during beaten to death the pastor must have called out "god help me". Guess he was busy FN up New York and New Jersey because of gay people.

Shocking revelation.

Agreed but do not believe for a second tasers are not dangerous. They have killed numerous times and not always the guilty.

Still the Bible is true even when so many people including religious people are so ignorant about it.

First of all Man Disobeyed God and wanted to become as God knowing both good and evil which caused his and mankinds separation from God. Why do you think there are so many problems > lying, stealing,killings, lust etc etc. in the world. To blame God would be Foolish. The humanistic reasoning is that they put all their value on this life and not on the next. Life is valuable, yet it is the Creator's world and being in the analogy that we are clay, who can say why doth the potter make me as such. So some will inherit eternal life through Jesus because of His sacrafise and others will be cast into the Lake of Fire. God's Will

I don't think religion is the point of this article, unless this is proven to be a religious hate crime. We still don't know why this man was killed.

If it was a hate crime, remember that hate crimes can happen to Christians and anyone else who is hated for their beliefs or race or sexual orientation. The intolerance and hatred is what drives it.

Until we know why this happened all we can do is speculate.

It is a tragedy when a person is beaten to death. It's too bad this man's family will have to go through the grief of losing him.

7.62x39mm - Violent crime is the lowest now than it has been for forty years. Under Reagan violent crime was much higher when he took people off of assistance. Romney will cause an absolute disaster!

I think God has set life in motion so that a broad range of things can happen to people. He is there to comfort and console us, or celebrate with us when things happen to us, good or bad.

Everyone suffers and dies. Jesus suffered and died. If you feel like there are better people than Christ that deserve to live forever and always be spared suffering...life must be a disappointment for you. It is fashionable to hallucinate that everyone should live forever on this earth, and that when the inevitable happens it is God's fault. When you throw your tantrum, it is extra credit to hold your breath and bang your head on the floor. Still won't change anything, assuming you avoid brain damage.

So far in history, except for those of us currently alive, everyone has suffered and died. Without exception. Hitler to Mother Theresa and everyone in between. This is why Christianity is better than atheism. When you die, if that is the end of everything...you were wrong, but you lived a better life. If not, and you were right...then you live on as the atheist does not. Win/win. Everyone gets what they expect.

First of all Man Disobeyed God and wanted to become as God knowing both good and evil which caused his and mankinds separation from God. Why do you think there are so many problems > lying, stealing,killings, lust etc etc. in the world.

Hmmm. Who would go and create such potential for evil as man, and what does that say about them?

will be cast into the Lake of Fire

Yes, but that is where all the fun is. Parties, drugs, sex.

No sex in heaven. Why? No sex organs. People become as angels having no sexual identity.

Heaven = No parties. No drugs. No sex. No orgies. No dragon riding. No horseless headsmen.

In other words, no fun.

I said it before and will say it again... WE NEED MORE ELECTRIC GUITAR CONTROL!!!

Yet another sensless death caused by a deadly electric guitar. When are the background checks going to start, doggone it! This man obviously had no business owning such a dangerous weapon......

And don't give me that "guitars don't kill people, people kill people" crap eithor!!!

Glenn, the greatest asset of the Devil or dark side if it makes you more comfortable is that they don't exist. If you look into the eyes of a killer you would see they have no soul. I guess the plan is working...........

To show His Love and Mercy to those He Saves. Man was created with "free will "

Then the creator has an enabling issue. That would be akin to letting your 13 year old teenager decide whether they want to spend their school night going to a party or doing homework.

Whoever created us, did not have our best interest in mind, as the state of this world in turmoil can attest to.

Ah, reading these posts reminds me of why I visit here. The entertainment value is priceless.

Who says highly disturbed people can't be funny?

Who says highly disturbed people can't be funny?

The apple didn't fall far from the tree, as Genesis 1:26 ascribes:

"Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,..." Lol

If everything is predestined and predetermined by the great santa claus in the sky what is the point of living. Thus, the American Taliban should off themselves.

Life isn 't predestined and pre-determined. we have free will to do as we choose.

Life isn 't predestined and pre-determined. we have free will to do as we choose.

How can you believe your god to be omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient ... yet still claim you have "free will?"

Free will is an illusion ... it's a copout for when bad things happen to good people. In other words, it's a lazy and inelegant description of reality.

Yup ... all that. And that's before we even get into the absurdity of the Abrahamic faith-claims.

A killer got his. As for the one's asking why, there's no answer. If you're not afraid it will burn your hand pick up a Bible and read the story of Jobe. You probably will freak out on that one.

Chad, your willful ignorance of theology puts you in a rather poor position to be making such claims. God has the power to do anything He wants. That doesn't mean he does so. If you still think it's contradictory, I'd like to see your definitions of omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient just to make sure we're on the same page.

debi God said "Let us make Man in our image" ? So you are saying Christianity is polytheistic? Who is us? Who is his mom and dad? where did he come from?

debi God said "Let us make Man in our image" ? So you are saying Christianity is polytheistic? Who is us? Who is his mom and dad? where did he come from?

It's clear whoever created us, be it through a crossing of their own DNA with Neanderthal Man or straight from a clump of dirt, was not alone.

God has the power to do anything He wants.

Including creating a peaceful, loving world; but instead, he created this mess. And please, don't blame the "free will" thing. He didn't have to create that either. Free will is inevitably a disaster waiting to happen and has a zero chance of turning out successful. Only a sadist would cause so much pain by setting up rules knowing they'd be broken.

"...i want to know what the pastor did..."

If you scrutinize, (look very closely) at the first three sentences, you should be able to come to the conclusion, (a summary of the facts mixed with personal judgement) that it was a random, (not fitting any pattern or following any logic) attack.

OK, boys and girls. Raise your hand when I mention your ethical values:

1. You think God is a fake "Christian idea" that has no place in today's society.

Oh, Lot's of hands. I bet you vote Obama.

2. It's acceptible to murder a minister if he might have insulted your life style.

Oh, OK... I see a LOT more Obama voters here...

3. OK, so the minister had no record of standing against Gays or HomoMarriage, except for his teaching from the Bible.

Oh, now I am seeing a LOT of Democrats clinging to their false values and voting for Odummy.

4. Murder is OK, as long as it is of a person that we cannot tollerate. Like "um, yeah" said... Maybe he deserved it because you don't agree with his ministry... Show of hands?

Oh, goodness. It DOES look like Obama bin Laden may win the election!

This is idiotic. Why is it acceptable, to people like "oh, yeah", to murder people because maybe his teachings or values might contradict your pathetic and murderous values?

How can you believe your god to be omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient ...

If your god is then your god is the one killing people since god is omnipotent and able to overpower satan but refuses to do so. If omniscient, god knows when people are going to be "tested" and refuses to interfere - thus is responsible for the harm bestowed on the human. If omnipresent, then god stands by idly watching people being tortured, killed, raped, and occasionally winning a sports event.

Who the F*** are you morons to put limits on what God? What he can and cannot do? To put limits on God's powers? You do understand that the reason Satan exists is because you are to stupid to handle the truth. That God has to be evil as well as good. If not this place would not exist. Satan was created by people that could not accept the truth. Do the Jewish people believe in Satan? NO.

I can tell none of you studied quantum mechanics. How many of you morons ever thought that to have something "good" you have to have something "bad" happen. For every positive there is a negative. Zero is always the starting point, add 1. Do we not need a -1 to equal out the value and get it back to 0? Yes we do. Take the universe for example, for life to exist we have to be so close to a star. How long does this star last? Does the star ever have storms or will it eventually will go super nova? Yes it will and in the process it will destroy most of the life that it created/supported.

How many nice sunny days are there compared to rainy/stormy days? Could you have a nice sunny day without nasty days? NO YOU F***ING MORONS COULD NOT, BUT YOU WILL SIT HERE AND TALK ALL KINDS OF CHIT LIKE YOU DESIGNED THE MOTHERF***ING UNIVERSE. You dumb ba$tards do not even understand what it takes to get our economy going A SYSTEM WE CREATED and you have the nerve to sit here and question God about a system you have absolutely no clue of.

What part of free will do you morons not understand? Is the attacker also not a child of God too? Does the attacker not have free will too? God gave the preacher the same two hands that he gave to his attacker, maybe he should have used them. The preacher could have made the choice to defend himself or to carry a weapon. " Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me." What do you think the rod is? A WEAPON.

Why do you not expect God to chew you food for you to? What was the point of him giving you a mouth and teeth? The last thing God wants to do is babysit your dumba$$es. How many questions would you ask him a day AND EXPECT 'THE" ANSWER FOR? How many times would you run to him to complain about what some other human did? He gave you a brain, USE IT!

How many of you idiots still think that a 90% top tax rate is too much? Why other kind of checks and balances exist to limit the amount of wealth or magnitude that one person might acquire? Why does your system require money to be printed until the end of time? Why does you system FAIL if money is not printed to infinity? Why can you not understand a simple regulated power supply or what "exponential runaway means"? We are in a case of "exponential runaway' with our economy. Unless we limit the amount of money/wealth that one group can acquire then the system will fail. Do you morons think the universe works this way? NO IT DOES NOT. Why does the universe force objects that have acquired to much mass to give it all back, and turns them into stars? Why does the universe DEMAND four times the power to double your velocity? Why does friction exist? BECAUSE THE MAJORTIY OF YOU DO NOT KNOW YOUR A$$ FROM A HOLE IN THE GROUND, YET SOMEHOW THINK YOU ARE "GODS" THAT DESIGNED THE UNIVERSE...LOL. Crawl back into your hole mammals.

Zero equals death and stagnation. To do anything or for anything to exist you need potentials or magnitudes. That is the only way to perform "work". Due to the law of entropy everything is in a state of decay. There must be something like the "collapsing of the universe" to rebuild those lost potentials. If not life could not exist as we know it.

Hate to break the news to you, American Taliban, but MAN CREATED GOD because of his fear of death. Pretty simple and logical, huh? Quit trying to foist your archaic belief systems on one and all. The Founding Fathers (wingers love to bring them up) were mostly deists or atheists. They detested religion!They demanded separation of church and state. Let's honor their memory by ensuring this.

If there is life after death, you will go where people like you are going. It is as simple as that. If you do not like people who are like you - change. Otherwise just stay the course and not be distracted by any religious mumbo-jumbo. Live your life with dignity and purpose and do not worry about what is on the other side.

KEM

Lock the doors ... just because you are paranoid .... doesn't mean someone's not really after you.

I find it interesting to all of those who not only do not believe in God but want to beat the people over the heads that do. I am not the go to church and preach to anyone kind of guy, but I wouldn't ever try to take someones faith away either. Back to my point though, if anyone of these "non believers" had their backs to the wall, whether it was child getting ready to die or extreme case in where they know they are going to die themselves, I wonder how many turn to God at that point and ask for his help. I know I would and if it didn't happen the way I saw fit, I would be damned if I would curse him afterward. It's faith and it works in strange ways.

I love it when really stupid people think they are very smart. Obviously none of YOU studied quantum mechanics. lol.

What's with all this "Quantum Mechanics" stuff?

There must have been a convention or something ... did you all just hear about this "new way" to prove your magic friend? I love hearing people who obviously don't understand a thing about science, try using science to prove their points. I especially love the people with a background in science (who also happen to be religious), that think just because they are religious, the people who aren't, are somehow intolerant of their beliefs.

Here's a little hint for you guys ... I think it's great that you've taken a physics class or two, but nobody is buying your "argument from authority" in regards to your personal beliefs ... they have no baring on science.

"A survey of Royal Society fellows found that only 3.3% believed in God. A separate poll found only 5% of members of the American National Academy of Sciences believed in God."

So what does this mean?

It means that when you correct for education, field, and length of study, the VAST majority (basically 95%) of the elite scientists in the world, don't believe in a personal god.

But again, what does this mean?

Does it mean that you are "stupid" if you believe? No, of course not. But I would think twice before trying to square your belief in god, and your knowledge of science, and your projections of who I am and what I believe.

Science isn't in the business of disproving god, just as it's not in the business of disproving fairies. There are many things science can't "disprove," nor does it care to. Science is in the business of following evidence. If there was evidence for your god(s), well, you would think 95% of the top scientists would believe.

But they don't. And these are just the facts ... not opinions, or hunches .... just cold, hard facts.

Regular Guy:

...if anyone of these "non believers" had their backs to the wall, whether it was child getting ready to die or extreme case in where they know they are going to die themselves, I wonder how many turn to God at that point and ask for his help.

I was raised as a "believer", have had my back heavily against the wall, begged for help and found no one was there. There are those who will make all types of excuses and reasons as to why no one was there, but at the end of the day, they are all just excuses.

People can believe in whatever they choose to believe in, but what gets non believer's rankles up is when believers attempt to pass their moral judgment and laws based on someone as non existent as Santa Claus or the Easter bunny.

I still find it fascinating people believe a God created all we see before us but was materialistic enough to want all the silver gold iron and brass from the attack on Jericho, among many other examples of god wanting the very things he supposedly created in the course of a week. A god who is supposedly all knowing, all powerful, timeless....who is everywhere all at once and knows the future and yet didn't know ahead of time that he would regret making mankind or what the result would be of placing a tree of knowledge in the garden of eden. In fact, just about everything in the bible is pretty ludicrous when you start to think about it critically and stop making excuses for the many parts that don't match the reality of the situation. If we want to cling to the beliefs by allowing metaphorical interpretations of the parts that don't fit then we might as well look at everything metaphorically, including his supposed hatred of homosexuality.

@EngEsq and Chad. What did I say WRONG? Please explain to me HOW I AM WRONG IF YOU ARE SO SMART AND CAN PROVE ME WRONG. How can you do any "work" with zero potential? What is the physics definition of work? Maybe the two of you should look up/study a simple heat engine or carrnot cycle. Maybe then you might start to understand. Why should the universe be collapsing according to quantum, but is expanding atm?

Seems to be a common thing that people call me names, but can never back it up...lol. At least when I call people names I have facts to back up my claims. I only figured out how gravity can be included in Q.E., but that is nothing special.

Tired,

To be honest with you, I'm not entirely sure if I should take you all that serious ... you sound like you're doing a Woody Allen impersonation on crack.

Where you fail miserably and extinguish all credibility (at least in my book), is where you choose to make belief (or non-belief) synonymous with intelligence. They are not.

At least when I call people names I have facts to back up my claims.

Your insults are interesting, at the surface-level at least, but become rather boring after a minute or two. You should try mixing in humor and wit if you prefer to get arise out of people. Where things stand now, you're simply doing it wrong.

I only figured out how gravity can be included in Q.E.

"Gravity"?

Haven't you heard? That's just a "theory."

The real smart scientists among us have changed it to "Intelligent Falling."

Tired:

If you've figured out a way to prove "god", please, let the rest of the world know because even the greatest minds have failed to do what you claim.

LOL still nothing about why I might be wrong...sad. I am not trying to be funny morons I am trying to teach you something if you would listen and not get so butt hurt. I get tired of the "why did God not doing anything to help that guy out" comments.

Do you not understand what I have described? The universe is the only 100% efficient engine THERE IS. We cannot ever build a 100% efficient engine as humans it is impossible. To be perfect you would require nothing, you would not need food, water, air, etc. YOU WOULD NOT NEED ANYTHING TO EXIST. That is perfection, not needing anything. What happens to something that stops moving, spinning, and loses all energy/power compared to us that have motion, spin, energy, etc.? Would it not disappear from our measurable existence? YES IT WOULD. It would cease to exist from our perspective. Quantum is based on virtual particles that disappear and reappear right in front of our eyes. Maybe those particles do not disappear, but lose energy and enter a ground (zero energy) state that all other moving particles are referenced to. In other words an absolute system instead of a relative one, but that would require you to look at the universe from the perspective of energy and not matter. Time is a constant for energy, but the time we experience as matter is based on the motion and velocity of energy.

A scientist knows that General Relativity is not compatible with Quantum Mechanics. Therefore, one theory is right and one is wrong or the are both half right. Maybe you should catch up with the times a little. There is one "grand unified theory" which is the holy grail of the physics community. It is out there you just have to look at it from the right perspective, feel free to look up some of my old papers on it. They based on holographic theory from the 60's.

God? Who else "engineered" the universe? Who added the energy needed to start up the expanding and collapsing universe in the first place? Why is life tuned to reproduce? What made the first single cell organism decide that it needed to carry on life and make a copy of itself? Why are there so many organisms that do reproduce? How many non-reproducing organisms are there? There should be at least one thing that does not have the capacity to reproduce (even then that has more to do with probability/balance then anything). Even viruses have some way to reproduce. There is proof of God, but one must look for it. He is not going to sit there and wave to people, let you take pictures with him, etc.

God is like the unknown solider. He wants to stay anonymous for a reason.

Tired:

1) Nothingness cannot be empty. Emptiness is a definable physical property, and thus, if nothingness is empty, it is something, not nothing (ie, empty space). Therefore, nothingness cannot be empty.

2) The non-emptiness of nothingness must have no physically definable properties. In order for this to be true, it has to be absolutely random. Not chaotic (patterned randomness) like our universe, but completely random, with no patterns whatsoever.

3) Pure randomness will eventually become patterned, given enough time (cause it's random, and patterns can evolve out of a random system at any time, due to the very nature of randomness). Once this happens randomness disappears and is replaced with chaos. But chaos has definable properties and is somewhat predictable, so it isn't nothing anymore. So once this happens, nothingness has spontaneously spawned somethingness:). In our case, our universe.

Debi go look up how things are "measured". The only way to measure something is to send something like a particle from a transmitter, bounce it off the object in question, and get something to hit a receiver. That is the only way you tell if something is there or not. Had you actually went back and read some of my papers you would see that in the ground state or zero energy state, the electron and positron pairs are still there and take up space even though from OUR perspective they have disappeared. They must take up space or my theory about gravity does not work. How can we tell that something without energy, spin, etc. is there? How can we measure that? By adding energy to it, causing them to spin back up, start moving again, and pop back into our measurable existence?

Take the probability smear that is an electron and look up "flying rods" to see what the capture rate does to measurement and the results. People saw these long smears and thought they might be prehistoric insects that could only be seen with a camera. If you viewed the same insect with a high speed camera the probability smear went away and there was a regular insect. Take a car wheel and look at it with a standard 60 FPS camera. As the tire approaches 60 RPS what happens? Does time appear to start to slow down? At 60 RPS will the tire appear to stop? Past 60 FPS will the tire start to turn backwards? Yes it will for all. Does the tire ever turn backwards or the car stop and then start to go in the opposite direction? No. Does that not sound like what happens if we were to approach the speed of light? What do we have to measure an electron with? Another electron. What effect do you think that has on our measurement of an electron if the only thing we have is another electron to try and bounce off of it? Probability smear.

For #3 the law of entropy says otherwise. That all ordered systems will become disorganized. Why does a tank or resonant circuit die out? Why does it not start oscillating then for no reason? The only way to start a resonant circuit is to add power to it. The universe is not a fixed tank or size, if it were it would only be tuned for one frequency, however it changes in size and resonant frequency as it cycles. String theory has a way to make patterns out of randomness, but that cannot happen until the universe is done with expanding by thermodynamics. Once the minimum size for fusion is reached and there are no more stars, the universe will go cold and then collapse.

The laws of the universe are written from the perspective of energy and not matter. "Energy" is the preferred perspective.

The only thing that changes a wave to particle is the capture rate or how fast you can measure something. Wave/particle duality is nothing more then in how we measure things.

The big question everyone has Tired, is how would the universe exist from nothing or without some intervention.

It's much more simpler than any quantum physics. For the answer, please refer to Post #1.51. :)

Debate god all you like the answer is a seceret and the ones that know the answer is dead and can not tell.

Oh and on the subject of the story the killer was mental acording to his wife he tried to get help but none was available to him .

Once again what drives the motion to form the patterns in the first place that you suggest? Does that not take potentials or magnitudes? How else do things move to form anything? What you suggest is that the universe was oscillating and snapped into its current form/existence from a sea on randomness, correct? Why did all the matter start out in one place then? What forced all the matter to that one place? Where was the force, magnitude, or potential to do that work? Once again due to entropy those motions would die out eventually and is the flaw with you logic. How does a universe snap into existence from something that has no motion? Electrons and positrons want to equalize their charge to form something that is neutral and is in a rest state.

The first lifeform was able to create out of randomness due to already existing potentials. It was on earth for example, in gravity, with so much temperature, with so much light, etc. there were things driving that random motion. For the system to cycle someone had to start it and add energy to it. Einstein was right in that the amount of energy that the universe has not changed and is still the same.

And I am sorry to hear that the guy did not get help, he at least tried to. Not to be cold, but the preacher could have armed himself too. He did live in Texas. Even a stun gun or mace might have done enough to slow him down or cause him to cease until the cops got there. Cain did kill Able.

What are the odds that a single cell organism will form given the right conditions? What are the odds that something larger and more complex will randomly form like a human? Are the odds greater or less that the single cell organism will form or a human? The single cell has a much better chance of forming does it not. What about between a universe and a human what is the difference in odds there? How many humans have you heard of that spontaneously created themselves out of thin air in modern times? Not many I bet :)

These are all very poor arguments, no matter how great the odds, if there is a possibility of it happening then the fact is it can happen. Given the hundreds of billions of galaxies each containing hundreds of billions of stars, many of which contain planetary systems, the odds of the precise conditions necessary happening somewhere in the universe over the course of 13 billion years are quite good.

Not since each time you roll the dice so to speak IT TAKES ENERGY. What can you not understand? You do not get to roll the dice for free. You cannot randomly combine particles or waves without there being something to power that. You do not get to do that for FREE over and over and over again until you finally make a universe. How can nothing or something that has no motion at all, all of a sudden have energy and motion again for no reason? That would go against the laws of physics as we know them. What potential exists or existed to allow the universe to form? It would have to last longer then the universe itself would it not? You cannot have a probability smear without motion and like I have stated/shown that can all just be a function of measurement. Your particle cannot be in multiple places at the same time without motion no matter what. All waves and frequencies die out and follow the law of entropy too.

Let us say there was a big bang and the universe expanded and then went cold/dead. How do you randomly do anything without motion at that point? Your universe is a one shot deal and could have never formed in the first place. There is ZERO probability without existing potentials to provide motion.

There is only a limited time to take advantage of any potentials that generate motion is what I was going for. How long has the earth been around? Why did a human not spontaneously create before during the dinos for example? Why did one have to evolve? Why can you not answer why single cell organisms can reproduce and why? Was that evolution or was that how that organism was already designed to be? Why did a single cell organism feel the need to reproduce? Why does a virus feel the need to reproduce?

Nothingness cannot be empty. Emptiness is a definable physical property, and thus, if nothingness is empty, it is something, not nothing (ie, empty space). Therefore, nothingness cannot be empty.

Guess until man can figure out the impossibility of the world being round, he'll have to maintain "it can only be divine intervention that created the universe".

Tired, you're missing the point. You're assuming energy is created by your god. Sorry, but that's not proof of anything, as you can't prove that's how it happened. That wouldn't even be credible evidence. You're taking a lot of scientific stuff and trying to wrap a nice little bow around it and call it god, that just doesn't work for anyone with half a brain, sorry.

To go back to what you were saying earlier, its probably the most flawed argument I've ever heard: Why do we not see organisms that can't reproduce is a self answering question, if it can't reproduce then it eventually dies and viola, we don't see them around anymore.

Your new argument is equally flawed. You are trying to apply probabilities to inevitability, much like trying to say that Mary must be a product of God because her grandmother had 7 children and only Mary's mother survived, the rest died in childhood. In this example the odds are 1 in 7 that Mary even exists but the inevitability of the situation is evident. This applies to abiogenesis and evolution. You ask why a single celled organism can reproduce and why humans evolved in the order in which they did as if questioning the probability of it all and discarding the inevitability. The Earth is 4.3 Billion years old, that's a long, long time. Enough time for the proper chemical makeup and environmental situation to randomly happen to give way to life, enough time for RNA to copy said life, enough time to form more an more complex life, evolving life, to get to where we are today.

As for your current assessment, the universe is believed to originate from a single point of pure energy. Energy that cannot be destroyed, mind you, so with random quantum fluctuations you can roll the dice over and over until a condition exists that begins cosmic inflation. Even if you maintain that energy must be used the sheer amount of energy available in the universe in terms of total matter and energy combined is simply staggering and even if it wasted energy everytime on a dice roll one can conclude that there is plenty of energy available in the universe to reduce the odds to a reasonable amount.

Debi what is with you and emptiness? If something is void or lacking in matter or energy would that be empty to you? If there are still electrons and positrons in a ground or zero energy state there is something. You again claim that this universe came from nothing. What makes up electrons? What randomly created them and what provided the motion or energy to randomly mix nothing over and over again to finally fomr something? Did something not have to exist to create the basic building blocks that every piece of matter decays into? If the big bang happened how did all the energy/matter decide to be at one place in time when that goes against what we know? it was more matter then energy at that time, we are decaying into energy that is less dense. How can you just ignore the first couple laws of thermodynamics?

excel, once again how does something move without a difference of potential? It you can get something to move or do anything without a difference of potential then you have violated those same first couple laws of thermodynamics.

Ituhata, but would it not still be possible for a lifeform to exist that cannot reproduce? Yes it would, finding one would be hard. But the fact remains that it would be more likely to form randomly would it not? How can evolution change how electrons, positrons, protons, neutrons, etc. work? How would evolution be able to change the basic framework, design, molecules, etc. that allows life to exist and reproduce? If we take two hydrogen atoms and mix them with a oxygen atom what would we get? How many time could you redo that exchange and get the exact same outcome? How many times can you take the "same" combination of chemicals that create the exact same single cell lifeform? Why would you get a "different lifeform with the same combination of chemicals? In the electronics world when we take a circuit that is designed the exact same with the same parts, IT OPERATES EXACLTLY THE SAME. How about computer software? Does that randomly do different things? How can you say my argument is flawed when to create a single cell lifeform you need X configuration of atoms to make it. IT ALREADY HAD THE CAPACITY TO REPRODUCE WHEN IT WAS FIRST CREATED. If not it would have just died. How would it know that it was going to die? How would it know to try and make another copy of itself? Why would it even bother to try and reproduce? How did RNA randomly create itself? How was that not already designed so that when those certain combinations of chemicals managed to finally gather under the right conditions life could start?

There cannot be quantum fluctuations without motion or energy now can there? Once again the law of entropy says that frequencies/waves die out due to equilibrium. Once again without a difference of potentials you cannot do work, and you cannot move anything or nothing. You cannot violate the basic laws of physics and thermodynamics. Even if there is energy IT IS AT THE SAME POTENTIAL AND YOU CANNOT DO ANY WORK. A dead battery still has electrons, just no potential to move them from point A to pint B. Like I already said capture rate and how we measure an electron can change it from a probability smear to a particle if only we had something small and faster then an electron to try and measure another electron with. The problem is electrons are the smallest known sub-atomic particle and that limits what measurements we can take using them to measure with. That is why an electron "appears" like a smear to us, we cannot measure it fast enough to localize it to one place or postition in time.

BTW Debi the reason things are round is due to surface area to volume ratio. Round is the most efficient shape and is why most things appear to be round. Surface area to volume ratio or the "cherrios effect" is how gravity actually works. Objects/particles share a side with each other that reduces the overall surface area, but the volume stays the same. Due to the sharing of sides and reduction in surface area the pair of particles displaces less of the surrounding media then the two particles would when are separate. Keep adding particles and the sum total goes down and down because more and more particles share sides reducing total surface area versus the total volume. Gravity is not a constant, but has an efficiency curve. It is more efficient at smaller sizes then large is all. By the time you even get close to something that is visible, gravity is down to such a low/poor efficiency that it might as well be a constant.

If you want to be technical, mules exist and they typically cannot reproduce. However, thats hybrid offspring so it's not the same thing. For all intents and purposes we don't see organisms that don't reproduce because they have no way to continue existing afterwards. It comes back to inevitability, we don't see organisms that don't reproduce because, surprise surprise, through the course of evolution any organisms that evolved without the ability to reproduce die off in a single generation and are replaced by organisms that can.

Reading your comments makes it pretty obvious you have no idea what you are talking about. I'm pretty much a layman myself but even I understand the idea of complex chemicals. Do you know why we are carbon based life forms? It's because carbon can easily bond with so many other elements and form a large variety of chains like amino acids, RNA and DNA. We can create RNA that at least has the capacity to partially replicate itself. If we can achieve this feat in the course of oh, 100 years or less, then nature can do the same given 4.3 billion years (or to be fair for arguments sake about a billion years since scientist think simple cells first showed up around 3.6 billion years ago). Your argument is flawed because you assume that being highly improbable means something is impossible without divine intervention. However every moment in time over the course of a billion years is a roll of a dice and is a moment in time when, say, a group of macro-molecules just happen to come together and entirely by accident and form the first replicating simple cell in perfect conditions.

Also you should probably read the entire law of thermodynamics. It's a common creationist mistake to use the second law as proof that evolution cannot create ever complex life. What you don't understand is that complexity can exist in part where entropy occurs in the whole and entropy must occur over time, however that time can be extremely long...like billions of years long. I guess the easiest way to demonstrate the misunderstanding of the second law is to point out that we all grow more complex as we age for many years before we begin "going into entropy" as we age.

And I'm just not sure if you are able to contemplate all of the energy in the known universe being contained in a single point. Not potential energy, as there is no matter at this time, nor space and time, just waves and waves of raw, hot energy contained in a point smaller than the smallest known object or unit of measurement. Quantum mechanics has never played by the laws of physics as we know them anyway, so I don't believe you are correct when you claim the quantum world cannot disobey the laws of physics. Furthermore, having all the energy in the unimaginably vast universe, all matter and enregy as we see them today, contained at a single point bends if not breaks the laws of physics anyway....and the laws of physics change over time regardless...the four forces of nature were not always what they are today.

And what you fail to reason still is there are only so many way to combine the basic building blocks of the universe the "quanta". What is the smallest known quanta? An electron or a positron. Now they are more complex then just a simple 0 or 1, but just like 0 and 1 they are quanta and are fixed. They do not change, they cannot change, they are quanta. Therefore if the quanta are fixed there are only some many possibilities that can exist or possible combinations. For 4 bits, there are only 16 possible combinations THAT IS IT. For 8 bits there are 256 possible combinations. All possibilities ALREADY EXISTED when the universe was created. That is what you not understand, there is nothing "new". How many ways can you combine carbon? Is there not a limit to the number of possibilities? Yes there is. Would we come up with a living organism that cannot reproduce first or one that can reproduce? What one is simpler and which one is more complex? A "human" being was already designed so to speak, yes there are variations but there is a general overall blueprint that already existed. If you combine these chemicals in this order/combination you will make a living thing that has two legs, two arms, two eyes, a nose, mouth, has teeth, has a brain, etc.

How can you say that quantum never plays by the rules? Lol are you kidding right? Why do they use energy, mass, velocity, spin, etc.? How do they determine energy density again? Those have nothing to do with the rules at all huh? Sounds like you really do not know quantum at all or physics for that matter and believe in magic. Sounds like you need to learn about the Pauli exclusion principal as well, about how electron are fermions and cannot occupy the same space while in the same state. If they form complex objects they can however, like neutrons and positrons. I did not come up with the big bang I am just trying to show you how it could happen without magic. Once again there is no reason in your system to force waves of energy towards one point in space, all at once. How did those waves start up all by themselves? They just did not decide to start moving on their own now did they? Did they bounce off of a wall somewhere? Why is there a wall there? The waves are all traveling away from a central point atm, what is going to make them do a 180 and turn around? What magic force makes an object move ALL BY ITSELF? Why can you not accept that you need a difference of potential to move anything or do any "work"? And my logic is flawed...

To get different combinations of quanta do you not have to rearrange them and "move" them? Yes you do, and each time you do it takes energy from a difference in potential to drive that reaction. Eventually that potential runs out if even it takes billions and billions of years. How long did it take a simple single cell organism to form? How long would it take for a star to form? Longer. How long would it take a universe to form? Even longer. A potential would have had to existed longer then the universe lives in order to randomly create one like you all say. A single cell organisms took how long again to form? How long do they live before they die, the average life cycle? How short is that compared to the age of the earth? Why are most of the stars we know of aged in a pattern around the big bang from old to new? If stars could randomly spawn there would be a greater random distribution would there not, instead of a bunch of old star near the middle? If stars could randomly spawn why would there be a need for the big bang, or the Milky Way?

You are stuck in one phase or perspective. Energy is the inverse of matter and they are in different phases. Without an inverse function to counter entropy that forces the universe to cycle there is NO WAY to rebuild lost potentials. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. If not why has no one been able to build a 100% efficient engine? Maybe because it would have to be the size of the universe. Potentials do not start by themselves. That has been the whole point of my argument from the beginning. LIFE WOULD NOT EXIST AS WE KNOW IT WITHOUT POTENTIALS. Without hot and cold, without light and dark, etc. How many particles in quantum have a anti or opposite particle? How many things cycle? How many things start and stop magically for no reason? Once God's thing (I did not design it he did) is running it stays running.

Debi what is with you and emptiness?

Tired, you are trying so hard to quantify your belief that divine intervention must be the only possibility in creating the universe, when in fact, it may be beyond your comprehension and much more simpler a solution that absolutely nothing was necessary to create the universe.

Thus my reference to those "knowing" the world was flat.

"How many ways can you combine carbon? Is there not a limit to the number of possibilities?" Well, it might shock you to know that carbon can bond with up to 4 separate elements and when bonding to itself can form incredibly long chains, shapes and patterns. Chemist are aware of over 10 million organic compounds. Ten million is probably enough, wouldn't you say?

By the way, check quantum entanglement and quantum teleportation, things your repeated harping on our inability to measure quantum particles without disturbing them has nothing to do with, and demonstrate just how quantum particles do not play by the rules. Quantum mechanics/physics is named as such because it specifically departs from standard physics. Debate me all you want on that point, they don't even obey standard laws of gravity.

When there is no time and space and all the energy in the universe is contained in a single point, there is no where for the energy to go. In the quantum world we know matter and energy pop in and out of existence all the time so that entire paragraph devoted to questioning how things decide to move in a singularity is pretty moot.

You amuse me on the star paragraph. Lets try to simplify this for you, after the big bang, or cosmic inflation, which ever model you are going with, the expansion of pure energy cools enough to form the most basic element in the universe, hydrogen. Due to the unevenness of the forming matter, gravity pulls vast amounts of it to form the first generations of stars. As I'm sure you are aware, those stars begin manufacturing the next basic elements of the universe, carbon, oxygen, lithium, calcium, iron, etc. Now those stars are massive, and they go supernova, during which most of your heavier elements are created and dispersed throughout the local area. Usually that star will form a black hole that serves as a gravitational body to keep mssive amounts of matter orbiting it....that's the framework for a galaxy. That supernova'd matter gets pulled into newer stars forming your second, third and fourth generation stars as well as planetary bodies that form around those stars and this pattern repeats so its not at all hard to understand why stars form the patterns they do. It's not so much random, as you say. There is definitely a method to it but that in no way implies there is divine function behind it.

I'm not really sure how you don't see E=mc2 meaning literally that no matter what you do, energy can be converted into matter and vice versa but there is no way to destroy energy. It is always there, now once matter began to form I understand that it can be stored as potential energy that has the potential to never be released but the universe did not start out with potential energy because there was no matter. It is interesting to note the very nature of stars demonstrates how nature can create complexity and transfer it even in entropy. It also demonstrates how matter and energy are transferred back and forth quite easily in nature.

Also,t you are wrong on "God's thing staying running". Over the course of trillions of years the universe's stars will have exhausted their supply of hydrogen and helium and with each new generation of stars they grow smaller and smaller, like our sun, which will never go supernova and redistribute their matter throughout the universe. Currently the galaxy is continuing its expansion and if Lawrence Krauss is right, it will continue expanding so that leaves little hope of the universe going into a big crunch, its most likely a big chill, with the last star dying and the universe going completely dark.

By the way, is your God the Abrahamic God, the Christian God? I would love an answer on this.

Debi how again how do we get a "potential" to move or do anything, MAGIC? If there is nothing what potential is there? How can nothing decide it wants to be something? Magic? What causes that change? Magic? Where is the cause and effect relationship? I am not even talking about "God", but simple POTENTIALS. Why can you not tell me where potentials come from or how to make one?

According to you since it is possible that a universe can create out of nothing it must be so when that goes against everything we know. Even though it is far more likely that random object would be appearing out of thin air throughout the universe as we speak. Why are there no random objects spawning atm? Even the people that believe in virtual particles believe there is "something". Why are you trying so hard to prove me wrong about 'nothing" when you cannot answer the question on potentials. HOW CAN SOMETHING MOVE WITHOUT A POTENTIAL? How can you roll the dice over and over again until nothing becomes something?

I am sorry that you all never attended a physics class in your life or never paid attention if you did. I am sorry that would rather believe in magic, or some line out of a Jurassic Park movie on chaos theory. If you cannot understand the basic laws of physics then I cannot help you. THINGS DO NOT DECIDE TO MOVE ALL BY THEMSELVES. I bet $ you could not design the calculator or computer you use from switches, transistors, FETs, etc., I can. Do you even know how the image/message you are looking at is made?

I would suggest you go watch 'A Universe From Nothing' by Lawrence Krauss. He can explain to you why you are wrong, no matter how hard you capitalize your letters.

LOL 10 million that all? You might want to go look up how many possible combinations are in 64 bits. Go look up the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle for why we cannot measure electrons...

Quantum does not obey the laws of gravity because they are not INCLUDED. It was never designed with gravity in mind and is incompatible with relativity which does describe gravity fairly well. You say it does not matter, but then go on to talk about how stars form WITH GRAVITY in the next couple paragraphs...lol. QUANTUM IS NOT COMPLETE. Here is another flaw in your logic if all the energy in the universe came together and had a big bang forming matter would that matter be cold or hot? It would be hot not cold or condensed. IT WAS COMPRESSED. Why is matter decaying back into energy as we speak if matter is at a lower, cooler, energy density versus the surrounding media/energy. Would energy not be flowing back towards us? Yes it would, if you understood potentials then you would know that.

Once again you resort to magic to describe the big bang. That quantum does not follow the rules and then when it does when you choose to say it fits? Once again what you and Debi talk about is things creating out of nothing. Why is there nothing being created atm? I have already talked about virtual particles and if you want to believe that there is this magic place that makes particles over and over again and that those particles disappear too that is up to you. I Instead offer you a ground, zero energy state, that particles still exist in just without power, but you do not have enough knowledge to understand that. You would rather believe in the magic place that makes particles out of thin air/nothing. If that is not magic I do not know what is? Like I said before the two particles hit each other release energy, form one particle (neutrino) and fall down to a no motion, no energy, no spin, no temperature, state and will sit there until another particle comes along hitting it or passing close enough by to give it enough energy to spin back up into our measurable existence. Again you would rather believe in magic and particles that appear and disappear for no reason then something that makes logical sense.

Like I said before where are the random objects? Why are new stars not forming out in cold dead space? Why are we not seeing other things being created out in space or on this planet for that matter. Considering the number of possible combenations then stuff should be appearing as we speak. But the only place we ever see a new star is where?

ONCE again is the universe is expanding and will go cold how did we ever have a big bang in the first place? If the universe reaches equilibrium how do we have another big bang without random motion or a lack of potentials? I WANT AN ANSWER TO THIS. How does a system that is in equilibrium all of a sudden get a difference of potentials?

Have we not been moving electric charges from the center of the universe since the big bang? I wonder if they might want to equalize one day? Where are all the right handed particles at since this part of the universe seems to like left handed chiral? Does an electron not want to equalize its charge with that of a positron? Yes it does, and that would be a "potential". Pretty sure it was Hubble that discovered the universe was expanding. The universe does not have a stable state, it is forced to expand and contract.

Can water, be a solid, a liquid, and a vapor? Why can energy not have those same phases? What is the main difference between matter and energy with E=mc squared? Could that be velocity or motion? So matter is moving energy, I wonder how that works with what I have said. Could energy not make up matter? What happens when we split atoms? We get energy, and everything decays into electrons and positrons atm.

Also the breaking of the four fundamental forces during the time of the big bang is based on the current speed of light. If the speed of light was different at the big bang due to the surrounding media being at a higher density then it is at now then those four fundamental forces would not have to be broken. Besides you missed the whole point that if gravity is stronger at the atomic scale then it might just be the strong nuclear force.

1) Gravity pulls matter together and when it forms stars that is when its converted back to energy.

2) There are no stars forming out in cold dead space because there aren't large quantities of hydrogen out in in cold dead space sufficient to ignite a star.

3) You don't seem to have a grasp on cosmic inflation/big bang theory. Both say the universe expands. We know for a fact it is expanding and is actually accelerating. This is fact, observed. There will be no second big bang, there is your answer. It will not contract, sorry to burst your bubble.

4) matter is potential energy when at rest, and kinetic energy when in motion. It can also be onverted to many other forms of energy through various processes that nature often employs.

5) With the discovery of the Higgs Boson we've completed the standard model which allows us to know what the 4 forces were like and they were all about equal at the time of the big bang and have slowly diverged to what they are today.

6) Seriously, go look up 'A Universe From Nothing' by Lawrence Krauss on youtube. Or go watch some free Leonard Susskind lectures.

7) 10 million organic compounds that can randomly interact under various conditions over billions of years. Yeah, sorry, you can bring up useless facts about how many possible combinations are in 64 bits it doesn't help you win your case about there being adequate variation and opportunity to create not only life, but varied life.

As far as a God I thought I made it clear that I believe in the Abrahamic or Jewish God. I also believe that Jesus was a prophet that came to deliver the message of forgiveness. We need some way to break out of those endless loops besides extermination of each other even though that is what is seems we are headed for one day. I have also studied most but am not expert by any means :). Pick one and do not go overboard, moderation is key. It is good to believe in a higher power something bigger then yourself.

Cool, because now I know you believe in a God that created light 3 days before he created the sun and stars, made stars for signs and for seasons even though we can only see about 4k light years worth of the 46bly worth that are out there, created a greater light and a lesser light to rule day and night even though that pesky night light is always creeping around during the day and even blocking the greater light at times....I could go on and on but I think it's the most important to note that your God, who has the power to create all we see, felt materialistic enough to want all the gold silver bronze and iron from the attack on jericho or demanded his fair cut of cattle in other instances....or perhaps this omnipotent, omnicient being who knows everything that will ever happen didn't know what would happen if he put a tree of knowledge in the garden of eden and didn't know he would regret creating mankind.

Anything born of the Abrahamic God is doubtful of its validity. If there really is a creator, it is likely we have never met it, and its likely it doesn't care much for the affairs of mankind, period.

You still never answered my question "How does a system that is in equilibrium all of a sudden get a difference of potentials?"

1) Where is gravity is Quantum Electrodynamics? Where is gravity in Quantum Chromodynamics? THERE IS NONE. Please go look them up they are not compatible with gravity. The higgs boson...lol. You might want to learn about how it imparts mass to objects. Once again believing in magic virtual particles when the logical answer is staring you in the face.

2) How did large clouds of hydrogen form in the middle of nowhere to cause a big bang? How did matter form out of nothing? It had to form out of energy.

3) You do not understand that if the universe expands once and only once HOW COULD THAT BE A RANDOM thing that might happen again according to you? You say the universe is a one shot deal that it will die out, but right before that were saying how the big bang could form out of nothing...WTF? That our dead battery all of a sudden got a full charge, instantly out of no where? LOL. Answer my question about a system in equilibrium I AM WAITING.

4) Really now you want to bust out classic physic laws after saying that quantum does not follow the rules...lol.

5) Once again you might want to go back and learn about how the higgs gives mass to objects. Without motion it cannot impart mass to any object or particle. For the higgs to give an object mass an object must fly through the higgs fields/particles. If an object is motionless it would be massless and not have an effect on surrounding space. They needed money to upgrade the atom smasher. It is why it is offline as we speak. They found a particle, but if that particle has anything to do with mass is anyone's guess atm.

6) I have probably already watched it, but I will humor you. You think this is the first time I have heard these arguments? No.

7) You will not even look up what 64 bits equals. Was the number to big for you to put a value on it? 64 bits is nothing. How many computers does it take to model a single cell organism? They just did it for the first time not to long ago. Once again how do we get any more combinations? There are a limited amount of them based on the number of quanta used.

You still cannot answer my question, yet I can answer yours. You are just copy and pasting crap that you do not understand. I think you need to spend some time relearning the fundamentals. This has been a fun trip down memory lane, but it is getting old answering all your questions when I cannot get one simple question answered. Maybe if you would have answered that you would not be talking all this B.S. you do not understand.

I can't answer your question because the system is not in equilibrium. The universe is expanding, that's not a system in equilibrium. If you're referring to the beginning of the universe the system is not even in equilibrium at that time, its a massive surplus of energy.

1) Says the guy who believes a magic man magically whipped up the universe in a week. I've read alot about the Higgs, its a field of subatomic particles that particles interact with to gain mass, one that scientist have confimed exists....can we say he same for your man? Nope. I had a great argument with another guy about how logical and straightforward the bible is as an answer to everything and after 4 days he just shut up because I showed him and I can show you just how convoluted the bible really is and how apologetics try to stretch the meaning of the bible or imply metaphors or come up with overly convoluted explanations as to what it means whenever it doesn't fit the mountains of empirical evidence that disprove it time and time again.

2) Once again for the umpteenth time, out in the middle of nowhere did not exist, there as no space, time or matter, just energy contained in a single point. Heck, acording to Krauss, there may not have been energy at all, just nothing, and quantum fluctuations caused the big bang. All that energy eventually cooled to form matter, which would have been relatively close together at that time, close enough for gravity to pull it into large clusters capable of forming stars. OH look, your very last sentence I agree with. MAtter formed out of energy, how long have we been beating the bush on that one?

3) When did I say it might happen again? It might happen in another universe, but not here. Your question is a poor one, you are assuming a repeat in a system that has space and time and concentrated energy being dispersed throughout our universe. I'm sorry if science can empirically prove that particles and energy do in fact appear out of nothingness and then disappear all the time. Caps lock buton broke? Great...keep waiting for an answer to an incorrect question.

4) Oh, that is in response to you and was actually agreeing with you somewhat that matter is potential energy, what you continue to fail to grasp is that energy is only potential energy when it is in stationary matter. Now for the umpteenth +1 time, the universe didn't have matter to begin with, just pure energy, so try explaining to me how that is potential energy? Actually just turn on a flashlight, with the mere power of a AAA battery you an propel photons in all directions and back again in and on itself at the speed of light, so try humoring me when all the energy of the known universe is contained in a singularity with no space to travel through.

5) Again go turn on a flashlight. Strange how at the click of a button you can send photons flying at the speed of light. I wonder how you believe these sub-atomic particles are at rest? Oh, they shut down the LHC you say? Wow, it seems like just 3 months ago they were reporting the highest temperatures ever created by smashing atoms together at around 5.5 trillion degrees C.

6) But you're trying to argue against theoretical physicist who know much more than you do, I guess that just shows that people will cherrypick science that seems to agree with their religious beliefs and ignore all other evidence.

7) Considering they sequenced the first viral RNA genome back in 1975 with about 3.5kb I'd say not many computers at all, I'd also say happening before I was born wasn't that long ago, thanks for making me feel young.. There are many bacteria whose entire genome take up less than 1Mb of data. That's todays bacteria, not the first simple single celled organisms of long ago. Plus you are assuming chemical compounds are all we have to work with, that's just what's available. All DNA and RNA is a set of instructions made up of 4 nucleic acids. That's all it is, ACGT, from those 4 letters comes all the different forms of life.

Yes, you go right on getting sick of not having answers to BS questions, ignoring facts and empirical data that proves you wrong. Having to answer your convoluted and circular questioning and getting you to understand where you are wrong is also getting tiresome, but don't tell it to me, tell it to the 95% of the scientific community who don't agree with you.

I am sorry that would rather believe in magic, or some line out of a Jurassic Park movie on chaos theory.

Yes Tired, you do believe in magic based on the writings of one book with no tangible evidence and only based on faith of its truthfullness.

The Egyptians believed the god Amun was their creator for over 3,000 years. If you had lived during that time, you would have believed that magic, too.

Lol, DO YOU STILL THINK I HAVE NEVER EVER HEARD ABOUT OR STUDIED QUANTUM MECHANICS. You assume like most of the people I talk that what you learned from a video is "correct", but you are wrong. I know where you copied and pasted most of this information from since you cannot think for yourself, but only copy and paste what I have already learned and heard many many times already. Maybe if your background in math was better what I have been trying to explain would be easier for you to understand.

I thought I already shown how THERE ARE NO QUANTUM FLUCUATIONS. That is due to how we measure things. We cannot ever measure an electron with another one to exactly determine where or how fast it goes. You still never bothered to look up the Hesienberg uncertainty principal or "flying rods" like a suggested. The whole idea of a probability smear, of particles being in multiple places at the same time IS DUE TO IMPERFECT MEASURMENT. Why are you so sure that your measurement device is perfect? When I have shown that ALL measurement devices are imperfect and can be fooled. I have shown how to duplicate the effects at any velocity or rate of capture. Take you hand, a solid particle, wave it in front of your face as fast as you can. WTF happened to your solid hand? Did it just turn into a probability smear across time and space. YES IT DID MORON, but you have sat here and tried to teach me something I ALREADY KNOW. That is how far behind you are.

There is no space, time, or matter...LOL damn I mean damn what are you smoking? I can tell you really know nothing. Let me guess debi is your girlfriend and you are trying to defend her honor or trying to make yourself look smart? WTF is pure energy? How is that different from the E in E=MC squared? How does that not follow the same laws? How can there not be any energy when we I thought that energy cannot be created or destroyed? Now according to you there was none and that quantum fluctuations which I have already show do not have to exist, but are a function of measurement error since we cannot build a better faster camera so to speak. Even if there where quantum fluctuations what drives those? What causes them to move? Perpetual motion? HOW CAN THEY MOVE ALL BY THEMSELVES WITHOUT ANY POTENTIAL ENERGY? How can something fluctuate back and forth ALL BY ITSELF? How does something move all by itself HOW DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THIS? HOW STUPID ARE YOU?

There is no stationary matter in the universe atm. EVERYTHING IS IN A STATE OF MOTION. That is why we are stuck with relativity. We are stuck inside the system that is moving. That is unless you can come up with a way like I did for an absolute system that uses an outside perspective. The law of physics do not make sense to you because you are looking at things from the perspective of matter and not energy. You are stuck inside the system.

Particles that appear and disappear for no reason...that is not magic? Again what are you smoking? You believe in the magic particle fairy that creates and destroys particles all across the universe at the same time, but you do not believe in a God? LOL, talk about magic. What potential drives THOSE particles? How is that potential maintained? THAT IS NOT MAGIC? Once again your dumba$$ does not understand a simple measurement device...sad. I tried. If you eyes can be fooled so can every other piece of equipment. I have only made my living my entire life creating, testing, troubleshooting, measuring, etc. things that were so fast and so small that you needed special equipment to "see" them. I only know everything there is about those measurement devices and how to get them to show me what I need see. I also know that they can be fooled and know what to watch out for, BUT others seems to think that their measurement devices are perfect and that probability smear is "reality" when it is all in how you measure it.

When did I ever say that a photon should be at rest? I think your duma$$ is confusing this with other zero spin particles. Amazing how many zero spin particles they try and create all so they can ignore the media between point A and B. I wonder why each time they add more zero spin particles their theories get less and less accurate. If you had actually been paying attention instead of copy and pasting a bunch of B.S. out of a video you would understand what I did mathematically and what effect that would have on the system, but your brain cannot process that. Your brain is stuck on the video because that is all you know.

How many posts did you reply with and still cannot answer my question about potentials and why things move? If you actually understood it then you would see that your expanding universe you keep trying to lecture me about that I have never heard about before...WOULD NOT WORK. IT WOULD NEVER HAVE CREATED ITSELF. To drive any fluctuations or any motion it TAKES ENERGY/POWER. There is no random motion. There are no magic particles that create forever and ever like some magic fountain. Would that not be perpeutal motion? The same thing you have been trying to say that I am wrong about? What drives all your magic? More magic or is that not a potential too?

It took 128 computers back in July of this year to simulate the first single cell organism. Maybe you should look up some of the stuff I has told you to instead of assuming you know everything.

God is all powerful, God = energy. God sees time differently then man does, Time for energy is a constant, while time for matter can vary based on the motion and velocity of energy.

Like I said before this has been a nice trip down memory lane, but this is pointless since you assume that you are right. You have not looked up or even considered ANYTHING of what I have said. The only thing you have done is try to prove to me how your way is right and I am wrong even though your way still violates the basic laws of physics. LOL, this reminds me of someone trying to prove to me that their religion is right one. I have shown that my way never breaks any laws once started, but my logic is flawed. The way others describe it requires magic to have big bang in the first place. That the laws do not apply when it is convenient for them. I have had this same conversation with others, thankfully there are some smart theoretical physicists that are open minded and I do not have to deal with morons that assume they know everything. What you believe in requires perpetual motion anyway and has been why I have even bothered to carry on the conversation this far...it was funny, but now it is getting old. There is more stuff wrong in your posts, but I am not wasting any more of my time. Stay in school.

chad-1841583Restored

He killed a man of God...God killed him.

“I struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realize life is that gift from God. And, I think even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen.”

See how this line of thinking breeds irrational and irrepressible logic?

Religion is poison ... have a nice day :)

Chad

u cannot see the forest among the trees. Religion per se is not poison. The basic principles are set in stone. When they become interpreted by man is when they become poisonous.

rkb:

The basic principles are set in stone. When they become interpreted by man is when they become poisonous.

How has this religious teaching been misinterpreted? Is this the bible's attempt to promote the use of slavery and family values by keeping a man and a woman with children together under threat of separation?:

Exodus 21:1-36

“Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ ...

One could say "lady carma" could have stepped in before he killed the other dude ... just sayin'

One could say "Lady Carma" is a lot like "Lady luck", personally, I think they're both the epitome of the term "dumb blond", as they are both so unreliable, more than likely never get things right, and likes to fool around with anyone.

LOL you inbreds it's spelled KARMA !

Multiple cops could've used their stun guns on the suspect, or they could've been used multiple times or for longer durations. It's suggestive of an intent to kill.

It's suggestive of an intent to kill.

Or manybe his heart was beating so hard from beating the cr@p out of two people one more jolt was all it took?

Everything's bigger in Texas!

peteMT

"Everything's bigger in Texas!"

So my question is are they natural, cause California would argue that, but they're mostly all fake.

AB don't be an idiot....

You use them as much as you need to subdue a suspect...And most likely only one officer used his stun gun....Of course then you couldn't get all mad at the popos if you didn't feel the way you do....

Maybe he died because he ingested a bunch of drugs....Novel idea huh??

"Stun guns in Texas must use alot of voltage!!"

The bad guy died with the use of least force and Willie has a boner. You're not anti-gun, you're a professional impediment to progress.

Hooked up to 240 VAC.

Or maybe the attacker was high on drugs, and the stun gun voltage was enough to give him a heart attack.

Or maybe the cops Burked him. Done carefully, not enough weight to break ribs, it leaves no trace.

Yeh, and Walker wouldnt waste time talking or trying to reason with the idiot, he would just take him down, and rightly so. That was the good ole days when there was respect on t.v. shows for law enforcement, not now, the customer is always right, excuse me did I say customer, err I mean criminal.

Angry Alaskan

Might want to try re-read the article, nice try with "humor" though!

hmmmm.......maybe shot himself in the head with a taser.

People in comas don't thrash around.

Technically, they would have been justified in using deadly force, they did not. Tasing is not typically deadly, their must have been an underlying reason for this mans sudden death. Do you understand that this means they could have shot him and been okay?

Janet...I truly doubt the stories you have told....Or maybe you aresuffering a psychosis from too many tazings?

I'm thinking you don't actually know what a coma is.... Maybe they were using a difibulator.... So they had him calm enough to check his blood sugar, read the glucometer, and then tazered him? I call b.s.

fine line between cops and criminals

Rob68- As a pharmacist who has seen more seizures than I can count and multiple cases of extreme hypoglycemia (the stage you're at before you go into a diabetic coma) I can assure you that at least the scenarios that Janet describes are not all that far fetched.

At a Tigers-Yankees game back in '88 a guy sitting right in front of us started getting agitated and trying to leave his seat before he finally crawled right over the back of the seat and on top of myself and the friend I was attending the game with. Several of the people in the row that he had been in and tried to push past and my friend all at started to react violently towards him in spite of the fact that both a friend that was with him and myself were both yelling that he was having a seizure and just to restrain him (I realized what was happening the moment his friend first yelled that he was epileptic and having a seizure). Stress can trigger these kinds of episodes and it's not difficult to imagine the police using a taser on someone behaving that way.

The same thing applies for people who become profoundly hypoglycemic. They almost always first become confused and disoriented. Most of them then become lethargic but a significant number become agitated and even aggressive before that happens. Again, this is something that can be triggered by stressful situations and it's not hard to imagine how the police might respond if it did.

That said it's probably better that the police use their tazers on them instead of billy clubs or bullets.

Hartvig, my college kid has epilepsy. She's able to function due to her current meds, but a taser would kill her; a family friend warned her to stay clear of crowds of rowdy students while on campus, I would not have thought that she'd be in danger, but I guess they do use tasers for crowd control. I've seen more seizures than I can count, too. November is Epilepsy Awareness Month in the US, I would like to see something--ANYthing--in the news, that will help people understand a condition that 3 million Americans are living with. I hope someone would never use a taser on a tiny college girl, but it's just one more thing for a parent to worry about.

essie222- You're right, I didn't say that as well as I should have. The police should NEVER use violent force of any kind when dealing with someone with a condition like epilepsy or a whole host of other medical issues like autism (like my niece's son has). Sadly, the vast majority of police in this country have little if any training in how to recognize the symptoms or the ability differentiate between that and a drug-fueled psychotic rage. I do hope that you get your wish and that the media finds a way to help bring attention to the struggles and prejudice that people living with epilepsy face every day.

The police should NEVER use violent force of any kind when dealing with someone with a condition like epilepsy or a whole host of other medical issues like autism

"Excuse us Ma'am/Sir, but do you have any medical conditions we should know about before continuing to subdue you?"

....yeah....that will work....<sarc>

Tasing is not typically deadly,

Neither is driving a car.

Ask Elvis how safe taking a crap is.

There ARE ways to recognize that someone is having a seizure even if they're not thrashing around on the ground. Same with autism and many other medical conditions. But you have to know what to look for first.

There ARE ways to recognize that someone is having a seizure even if they're not thrashing around on the ground.

And just how, in the heat of the moment, is anyone to know that someone might have a seizure?

Hartvig, I understand your concerns, but if every time the police had to check for seizures every time a suspect got agitated I bet every other criminal would play the seizure card.

Police should be trained to deal with a variety of medical conditions and to have sympathy for civilians in need, but that kind of thing should be on a case-by-case basis. It is not always easy to judge a person's medical condition during an incident.

And yet the police make medical decisions in the heat of the moment all the time. To wit: he's not having a seizure. He's resisting. That's a medical decision. And when it's wrong, there's no accountability; police claim ingorance.

Obamacare!

Muslimcare

Do you only say stupit @!$%#?

So you are saying that you are drawn to stupid, senseless scums? If I was you, I get that condition checked out, it could be fatal and sounds highly infectious.

CLUE: if you don't violate the traffic laws they don't stop you.

What are you doing speeding? Unless of course you have to go number 2, then its understandable I guess.

Until one of them saves your life, pulling your unconscience rear end out of the burning wreckage you were just speeding in.

*DING DING*

Michael has won the asshat of the day contest!!

Let's see - article says man crashes car into church, man jumps out of car beats pastor to death. Cops show up and man is still armed. Cops use taser instead of handguns. Michael is still not satisfied with police's actions.

The problem here wasn't with the police's actions. The problem here is Michael.

So true. One of our churchmembers was at our church, alone, taking his turn cleaning the building when a homeless looking man knocked on the front door looking for help. This churchmember has no access to church money or resources and was trying to help direct the man to other places for help when the man went crazy and started yelling, kicking, screaming, pushing at our churchmember. The poor guy had to call the cops on the homeless man and shove him out of the building. The homeless man stayed in front of the building screaming until the cops got there. The whole situation was sad....

should've taken him down to McDonald's for a cheeseburger. But since Big Government has taken over.. maybe he just should've given him Obama's phone number.

You may want to change those prescription glasses, or get lasek on you eyes. I have yet to read one post shouting how it was unnecessary to use a taser.

Posts 4.1; 7; 12 just as examples. Others are more subtle.

Janet did, #7.

My bad, I guess I must have skipped Janet's post.

Guess someone else needs the lasik surgery?? =O)

Capitalization, punctuation and basic grammar are your friends.

And your's lavrn?? Oh wait people don't like people who disregard what is said because of grammar/typos....

Hence no freinds for you...

Yes I spelled it wrong on purpose....

lavrn

Capitalization, punctuation and basic grammar are your friends.

You missed a coma, doh..........

Hey, thepunisher-2054749, missed a comma. Lavrn, I would much rather miss a coma, than a comma.

My theory is if someone notices that I've mispelled a word then they must know the word regardless. I like to use My words IN AN instructive manor.

bigbill and thepunisher, I was taught that the comma before 'and' was optional. I realize that it was a long time ago but just sayin'......

Thank you for your useless, senseless comment.

and thus tom has removed all doubts................

thepunisher,

Play nice.

Apparently, Yes!

Johnny you missed the spot....

Given this time of year, all I heard while I read your comment was "wha wha, wha wha, wha wha." ~Charlie Brown's teacher.

Shouldn't you be on a street corner screaming "The end is coming" or something to that? You would get way more publicity than the vine. Besides your free will is showing, didn't you peeps get kicked out of eden because you obtained free-will? Your god is gonna be pissed off at you for judging.

Wow, after reading that, the clouds spread, I saw the true light! Lol, I have no idea what you are talking about. (I don't think you do, either.)

Besides, should a man or woman of "God" really be calling people fools? WWJD?

Oh please!! go back under your rock!!

There's a scripture: " Cast not your pearls before the swine"

These comments remind me of the Parable of the Sower how the good seed landed on different types of soil. Apparently the seed landed on stony, weed infested rocky ground

Well, some of you people want to mock the things of God, that's ok, the bible says God is not mocked, whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap, and it also says that you can twist the scriptures to your own destruction. The wisdom of man is foolishness with God. Also, I voted you up Glenn. You are right, we should not cast our pearls, but the bible does say to compel them to believe in God, it's all on how hungry a person is, you know that old saying, you can lead a horse to water but you cant make them drink. Of course that does not excuse of from telling people that they can have a relationship with Him, at least they can never say that they never heard!!

Not that I care to argue the point, but I would be willing to read a peer reviewed article on the subject you point me to and report back on the validity of your statement in a way everyone can understand.

I would like to believe what you said, but for someone closing the distance on a PhD in biology I can't make intuitive sense of your statement.

Chicago Student: it couldnt have been any plainer, "most of the fatalities involving tasers are due to a controlled substance in their bodies!! The bleeding hearts want to make it something that it's not.

LMAO! Good luck "closing the distance"

Joe P-3103590 -- I see where you are coming from. My first thought upon reading the news article was that it sounded like either drug induced behavior, or that the attacker was in a psychotic episode. I'm retired now but before I retired I was a substance abuse counselor. And before being a substance abuse counselor, I worked in a mental health intensive care outpatient treatment center, so I have some education, training and experience in dealing with both. Unfortunately, as some others have pointed out in these comments, there have been instances where seizure issues and diabetic issues were misinterpreted by police. It seems to me that more extensive training is needed to reduce that kind of misinterpretation.

Your right, no solid body guitars, only DOJ approved hollow guitars.

OSHA- approved Breakaway guitars! LOL! But seriously, I wonder what was so wrong with the guitar in the first place that he would beat it with a pastor?

I agree. When we have over 10,000 guitar-related deaths per year we should look for stricter guitar laws. Until then we can stick with efforts to control guns.

Well, it certainly wasnt the guitars fault, that makes all guitars look bad!

Ban assault guitars and armor piercing strings.

I'm just curious where the guitar came from. Did the guy carry it in with him, or was it already there when he came in.

God took out his vengeance on the guy right away for killing his Speaker, I don't think it matters why the guy died from tazer but it does eliminate a trial and expenses for keeping him in jail while waiting for trial. RIP Rev.

Good point Ed, regardless of whether one believes god took out vengeance or not. This scum was a killer and deserved what he got. Why is everyone arguing about how he died? He is dead, he deserved it, it saved the state a ton of money. And Chicago student, since you claim to be working on a doctorate, check out the New England Journal of Medicine and JAMA archives, I believe you will find what you are looking for. And yes, I have two doctorates... Ph.D. from Penn State and an M.D. from University of Colorado. And, I have seen peer reviewed articles that weren't worth their weight in a bucket of warm urine.... the "good old boy system" is alive and well, as you will find out by the time you reach my age.... 74 and counting, but still practicing three days a week.

Good point Ed

Really?

Is it really a good point?

Yes, yes ... God was really pissed this guy killed a preacher .... Hitler wiping out millions of Jews (his chosen people) ... meh, didn't really care much.

Logic and reason have really left the building with you guys, hasn't it?

Chad, your elitism and belief that you are blessed with the only view that involves logic and reason is annoying. Why bring in Hitler and the Jews? Do you have personal knowledge that God did not care very much? Since you brought it up let me say that it can be argued quite rigorously that God allows us humans to make bad decisions and to refuse to be "our brothers keeper" so to speak. It is called free will and it can be used for wonderful acts of goodness as well as pure evil. IMO that is what created the holocaust. May we never let it happen again. May the pastor RIP.

you will not find the word freewill anywhere in the Bible for one not to say it isn't implied but everyone that is saying something is in the bible one needs to look at the context and have a translation that it accurate try NASB. This story is disturbing but to say God killed him can be argued. Before you say anything about God look at scripture and does it or does it not align with it. I don't need to defend God but when people speak of Him as if the know Him and generate a false attribute and character of God, one makes that person look foolish, and makes people who love God and are in His word that have sound doctrine and theology look bad so before anyone says anything about God be sure that you are correct. all i see so far is people saying that God killed the guy, if that is the logic then why wouldn't God kill someone who tells lies about God and dishonors His name. Don't be like everyone else and assume things really look into it, but most don't because they just want to speak, who can tame the tongue right?