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Subscribe to RSSStaff Sergeant Robert Bales, the American soldier charged with a grisly massacre of Afghan civilians, appears in a Washington state military courtroom Monday on accusations that he killed 16 villagers as they slept. TODAY's Natalie Morales reports.
TACOMA, Washington -- Military prosecutors said on Monday they would seek the death penalty for a U.S. soldier accused of killing 16 Afghan villagers when he twice ventured out of his camp earlier this year.
The lead prosecutor, Lieutenant Colonel Jay Morse, told a preliminary hearing he would present evidence proving "chilling premeditation" on the part of Staff Sergeant Robert Bales, a decorated veteran of four combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The shootings of mostly women and children in Afghanistan's Kandahar province in March marked the worst case of civilian slaughter blamed on an individual U.S. soldier since the Vietnam War and eroded already strained U.S.-Afghan ties after more than a decade of conflict in the country.
Bales faces 16 counts of premeditated murder and six counts of attempted murder, as well as charges of assault and wrongfully possessing and using steroids and alcohol while deployed.
Morse said he was submitting a "capital referral" in the case, requesting that Bales be executed if convicted.
The hearing at Joint Base Lewis-McChord in Washington State was expected to last two weeks and include witness testimony from Afghanistan carried by live video, including testimony from villagers and Afghan soldiers.
At the end, military commanders will decide whether there is sufficient evidence for Bales to stand trial by court-martial.
'I just shot up some people'
Bales, dressed in camouflage Army fatigues with his head shaven, embraced his wife Kari in court before the hearing began. He then sat silently watching the proceedings from the defense table as Morse summarized the prosecution's account of the events of March 10-11.
According to Morse, Bales had been drinking with two fellow soldiers before he left his base, Camp Belambay, and went to a village where he committed the first killings.
Morse said Bales then returned to the camp and told a drinking buddy, Sergeant Jason McLaughlin, "I just shot up some people," before leaving for a second village and killing more people. Morse called Bales' actions "deliberate, methodical."
According to McLaughlin, Bales asked him to smell his rifle and said "I'll be back at 5 (a.m.). You got me?" McLaughlin said he did not think Bales was serious, and "didn't think too much about it," going back to sleep for guard duty that started at 3 a.m.
Child witnesses to Afghan massacre: Bales was not alone
Prosecutors showed a video shot by night-vision camera from a surveillance balloon over the camp, showing a figure they identified as Bales walking back to the post wearing a dark blue bed sheet or throw rug tied around his neck like a cloak.
He is seen being confronted by three soldiers, including the two men prosecutors said he had been drinking with, who ordered him to drop his weapons and took him into custody as he is heard saying, "Are you ****ing kidding me?"
One of the three, Corporal David Godwin, testified that Bales kept repeating the words, "I thought I was doing the right thing," and "It's bad. It's bad. It's really bad." Several witnesses said Bales' trousers were spattered with blood. One said he had a "ghost-like look."
Drank whiskey, watched assassin film
Godwin recounted that he, Bales and McLaughlin had been drinking whiskey together in McLaughlin's room while watching the Hollywood film "Man on Fire," which stars Denzel Washington as a former assassin bent on revenge.
Several witnesses from the camp said Bales had been aggrieved over the lack of action over an improvised explosive device attack on a patrol near the camp several days earlier, in which one U.S. soldier lost the lower part of a leg.
Officials: US soldier in Afghanistan shooting spree said 'I did it'
Prosecutors said Bales had been armed with a rifle, a pistol and a grenade launcher on the night in question, and that the killings took place over a five-hour period in two villages. The dead included members of four families, most shot in the head.
When Bales returned to the camp and surrendered his weapons, he was brought to Captain Daniel Fields, team leader, at the camp's command center. "What the **** just happened?" Fields said he asked Bales. He said Bales avoided eye contact and just said "I'm sorry, I let you down."
Bales was not expected to testify during the so-called Article 32 hearing.
News that Army Staff Sgt. Robert Bales is suspected of killing 16 Afghan civilians has sent shockwaves through his Washington state neighborhood. NBC's Miguel Almaguer reports.
John Henry Browne, Bales' civilian lawyer, has suggested Bales may not have acted alone and may be suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder.
Kari Bales told NBC station KING5.com before Monday's hearing that she believed he was innocent, as a massacre of innocent civilians was "not something my husband would have done ... not the Bob that I know."
No motive has emerged for the killings.
Kari Bales had complained about financial difficulties on her blog in the year before the killings, and she had noted that Bales was disappointed at being passed over for a promotion.
Browne described those stresses as garden-variety — nothing that would prompt such a massacre — and has also said, without elaborating, that Bales suffered a traumatic incident during his second Iraq tour that triggered "tremendous depression.”
Asked about the prospect of the death penalty, Kari Bales told KING5 that she had not “had time to worry about that.”
“I know that’s a possibility,” she added. “If and when that happens then that’s the time I will worry about it. It’s in God’s hands.”
Reuters and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
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I am against the death penalty, period. What this soldier did was a heinous crime and should be punished. But executing him is not the answer. Life in prison is enough punishment.
Execution is the only answer, no easy ride for the rest of his life!
I don't like the death penalty. But if you have it on the books and even occasionally use it, then it certainly is justified in this case.
In the interest of justice, he should be sentenced to the same penalty he visited upon 16 sleeping civilians: death.
He dishonored the entire institution of the army and his country in an unbelievably heinous manner.
He deserves death for this obscenity. I wore the uniform and hated almost every minute of it but this right here is unforgivable. He went on a murderous premeditated rampage against unarmed civilians. UNFORGIVABLE. Send a message to everyone that there will be no mercy for this kind of atrocity and hang this rat.
He should have death just like the Fort Hood shooter.
They were both in the military and both committed murder.
I'm on the fence about the death penalty, but Confussed, I would see execution and death as more of an easy ride. Should he remain in prison for the rest of his life, he would be living with the consequences of his actions and possibly even get mental help for his problems. I'm not saying that what he did wasn't atrocious and an insult to the institution of our army and the sacrifices that other soldiers have made. I just don't know if death is always the answer...it's too easy and too swift a decision to make.
@Maggie - Would you have thought the same about Bin Laden?
Some lives are just not worth saving. This guy is one of those.
How about that Muslim that MURDERED our Fifteen soldiers at Fort Hood, what do you think his sentence should be IF they ever get around to trying him?? Probation???? This guy that kills the Afghans is going on trial already and that Muslim at Fort Hood has yet to see the inside of a courtroom after three years. Gee that sounds fair. Right??
@Maggie, what PJ is asking is the new version of the Hitler "gotcha" question. If you say you're staunchly ( as I am) against the death penalty and are asked if you thought Hitler ( or now Bin Laden) deserved it you were trapped. Answer no, and you're a Nazi monster Hitler lover ( or terrorist) answer yes and A-HA, so you admit there are exceptions. Another favorite of the death penalty proponents is the "what if they murdered your family" question. You and I both know that many, many innocent people have been wrongly executed but the proponents see them as collateral damage and there's no reasoning with them. If you believe that execution is barbaric then say so and leave it at that.
I am also basically against the death penalty but what he did warrants death. In prison, after a period of adjustment, these guys do OK. They form clans, they generate their negative energy outside the prison. They live and it is unfair they should enjoy any breath at all.
This soldier does not deserve the death penalty nor does he deserved to be on trial. He should be in a mental institution.
You people have no idea what you are talking about. You have no concept of what the pressure of being in these wars does to men, especially if they are back for a second or third term of duty. You have no appreciation for what this country is doing to its men. A friend of mine was three months away from retirement from the reserves. He had a business that he had built himself, and a daughter in college. The military called him back with only three months remaining before retirement and sent him to Afghanistan for a year. When he came home, his business was gone because no one was here to maintain it for him. He is a broken man with PTSD. He cowers whenever a car backfires and is struggling financially.
During his first campaign, Obama promised to bring home our soldiers from the Middle East, but they aren't home yet, are they? Those wars were hardly even mentioned during this year's campaign. What really needs to be done is to reinstate the draft. Make everyone's son or daughter serve and suddenly, people will wake up and start protesting these wars enough that something will be done about them.
and to think if he was a civilian and shot people in a theater he would be considered off his meds and crazy maybe he snapped and was crazy for a while. it woked that way for mothers who killed their own children and serial killers yet ths man served 4 tours and people want him dead. IDIOTS
This guy is an extreme disgrace to the uniform he wore. If he's found guilty as charged, his execution is deserved, and will serve as a strong deterrent for other soldiers, sailors and marines.
P.T.S.D. is no excuse. He was obviously not suffering from it and debilitated when he committed these heinous crimes. He did it for the sake of evil.
Look, this may be a case linked to PTSD. So, can we all take a deep breath and wait until the jury hears all the evidence. Even if he gets the death penalty, the military system will allow for command leniency and they can subsequently can reduce his sentence.
Tell that to the women and children he killed. Sorry, he needs to meet the ULTIMATE judgement seat. Child killers should be put to death and no waste anymore oxygen.
Tarzan- right on. Considering tht in AF/PAK women and children have about the same status level of dogs, I'd like to know who is more upset about this incident : us or the Taliban....it's us. I'm sure the familes got paid their 10,000$ per, so the survivors are sitting on easy street now.
This is what happens when you abuse your military folks. Keep them out there stressed up years at a time, and see what happens. I'm surprised it hasn't happened more often, which says a lot about the professionalism of our troops.
All the REMFS out there can stop complaining, because you don't know a thing about what you are talking about.
AND, some of us remember 9/ll - obviously you don't.
after his conviction send his ass back to Afghanistan and let them publicly execute him for what he did to innocent civilians.
His death is an appropriate punishment and will serve a greater purpose, and one which is particularly applicable to military culture: to set an example. Both for the military and to demonstrate to the world we take this seriously.
I am also normally not in favor of the death penalty, but in every way imaginable this is a great idea in this case. He is a soldier: his death will be a service to his country.
Well he's lucky he wasn't tortured in Guantanamo without being formally charged for 10 years first.
i don't believe in the Death penalty, i say if he is found guilty lock him up in Guantanamo and throw away the key, or send him back to afghanistan and let them carry out his punishment.
WHAT??? its not workplace violence????
Why is it work place violence at Ft Hood?
Is Obama favoring muslims over Americans?????
hypnotic.... he might like it down at gitmo...
see what Barry is wasting OUR tax dollars on???
$744,000 buys cooperative captives a new soccer field
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/02/28/2666083/744000-buys-cooperative-guantanamo.html#storylink=cpy
@Liz - I am with you when you say - so many people are wrongly convicted and are on death row. I get that. And I fully support organizations that fight such wrong convictions. However, I don't understand your absolutist position on death penalty. All those wrong convictions don't mean death penalty is WRONG answer in EVERY situation.
it has been a long time since the military executed a soldier, but this may be another,
as a former soldier, I do not think that punishment is inappropriate, mass murder is mass
murder, he did this for his own pleasure
15 soldiers have been given the death penalty since President Reagan reinstated it for the military. 10 have had their sentences reduced. 5 are awaiting death. President Bush signed the execution order only to have a federal court stay the execution. Even the idiot Asan Akbar who was convicted in the 2003 murders of Captain Christopher Seifert and Major Gregory Stone and wounding 14 other soldiers when he rolled two grenades into soldiers' tents and began firing his assault rifle at those who tried to flee the tents is still alive. Still alive after killing fellow soldiers in a war zone! He was sentenced to death in 2005!!! The chances of this guy actually being executed is small.
PTSD = not guilty!!
BS!! My father served in WWII and saw some of the worst action in Europe. 62% casualities in Normandy in 30 days in his company! Not one twitch during or after the war. The same thing could be said for all the dads that raised my childhood friends and classmates. PTSD my @ss.
Devil's Son Sir, with all due respect, you know nothing of PTSD, it doesn't hit everyone that has experienced great trauma, and those people are no stronger that don't get PTSD, but very, very fortunate. People with PTSD also suffer differently, but with many of the same symptoms. It is a horror that I would not wish on anyone. You may take me at my word on that sir. -Paul Hester
Did he act alone?
Last night - the night before election day - a US soldier phoned into a talk radio station and said, roughly "there are soldiers right now battling the Taliban for your right to vote. So I urge listeners to exercise tomorrow the right we are fighting for."
I am NOT voting.
We can vote for war,
or on the other hand,
we can vote for war.
I am not voting for war so some soldier can fight for my right to vote for war so he is sent out to fight for my right to vote for war.
Oh come on, vote for a Third party at least. That way you show Obama and Romney you disapprove of both of them and both parties have to shape up.
Sulayman is right. There is also more at stake than the presidential race. If you choose not to vote, you are not making a statement, you are deferring to whatever decision other people make for you- giving up what little bit of control you had. If anything, it makes a person weak and though I share your feelings about war, I can't respect the decision to not vote.
I don't agree with your rationale anyway. How is bringing our forces back from Afghanistan and cutting the defense budget a vote for war?
J.P - If it were your decision, back on Sept 12, 2001, when the ruins of the World Trade Center were still smoldering, or in January of 2009, when Obama took office and saw that Afghanistan was subsiding into chaos, what course of action would you have advocated?
Nations and their leaders cannot always avoid war. As Britain and Neville Chamberlain discovered over 70 years ago, those who attempt to avoid the unavoidable will face the judgment of history.
While the time has definitely come for us to leave, I whole heartedly support both our original invasion of Afghanistan in 2001, and Obama's decision to commit greater resources to the war in 2009.
For those of us who served in uniform - - it is drummed into your head when (or not) to use deadly force - - and this soldier must now be punished for his actions - - the death penalty should be that punishment.
Bring back popular vote and it'll be worth voting. 5 times in our history the popular vote determined a different victor than the electoral college, 5 times those men voted by the people did not sit in the high office when elected by popular vote. There is a committee put together to determine who will be the president when popular vote outweighs electoral college vote. Popular vote means EVERY VOICE COUNTS, not so now with the electoral college.
It's obvious that those who want "the popular vote" have absolutely no understanding of the horrible ramifications of such an approach to voting.
We don't get to vote for or against war. Our gov't isn't run by the people, for the people any more. Oh, by the way I did vote today.
I won't vote either. Though I see Romney as being much worse than Obama, the President does not seem very different from Bush to me. Anyway, the US is in love with these kind of shady characters and I don't believe this nation will survive no matter which one wins.
A third party is no option because I don't know much about them and my experience in Puerto Rico with third parties is that most of the people in the movements are just trying to take the seats of the incumbents so that they can make the big bucks.
It might help if the RNC and DNC didn't have our 3rd party candidates ARRESTED during the debates! Jill Stein (Green Party) was taken into custody and handcuffed to a chair during the 2nd debate for protesting outside the debate venue.
I know how the political parties work and I read how the guy got arrested. The whole thing tells me he was not very smart. People don't go into the enemy's territory and offer themselves as victims, not unless they are looking for publicity.
If there were a real third party in the US with real leadership and the intent to change things, they would have acted giving a direction and meaning to the Occupy movement. Where were they?
J.P. and Jibaro - If you can't get off your butts and vote, then you are both cowards and part of the problem.
boy did yous guys get off topic if you don't vote you don't get to complain
JP...tell ANY soldier who tells you that they are over THERE so we have the right to vote that he is lying...he thinks he is doing just that, but MY and YOUR right to vote does NOT depend on us being in another person's land for no good reason. And, as for what this soldier did, when OUR politicians, who sent him there are able to be court-marshaled, then and ONLY then will I be for a judgment being handed out...we use young men and women as cannon fodder and then, when they can't handle it, we want to put them in jail...BS
Actually ABC, I have fought the problem directly. I have challenged politicians and taken them to court and was escorted out of the Capitol in Puerto Rico because I challenged one Senator who said he was talking for the people. So I'm not a coward. Rather I'm a guy that knows that you do not become a political candidate unless you sell your soul to the devil.
See, it does not matter who you elect because they both work for the same people. I would go for a third party but I know third party candidates can be as corrupt as the main candidates and that most of the time they are people that failed to make the grade within the main parties, so I'm careful about who I back up.
By the way, voting machines are programmed and they can be set to read your vote the way the company that made them wants. There are countless documents in the Internet about this. When someone challenges the results of an election one of a number of things happen: 1: the losser does what ever is necessary to stop the investigation; 2: the evidence disappears; 3: the courts make the evidence disappear; and so on. So, if you believe in the system, go vote. I will not waste my time doing so unless I see that the people around me really want a change.
JP, if you don't vote the @ssholes win! No matter who you consider to be the @ssholes! If you don't vote they win. Voting is a right but it is also a honor and a duty. No only to yourself but to everyone you know and every person in the country. There are 5 people running for president not just 2.
Ridiculous. Obama ended the war in Iraq, and he's ending the war in Afghanistan. Both of which he didn't start.
How is a vote for Obama a vote for war??
Some people think voting for Beavis or Butthead makes a differance? Remember Hope and Change?
Obama was gonna close Guantanamo, end the war, lower taxes, etc. Instead he bolstered the evil Bush's programs, expanded government intrusion in to our private lives , passed the NDAA, REALLY ramped up the drone program (which I wholeheartedly concur with BTW) ran up a 20 trillion $ deficit, crammmed health care down our throats. Hard to get any info on him at all after he spend $2 milllion sealing ALL his records (would you hire somebody as a janitor who did that?)
Romney would eliminate a womans right to choose, pander to the creationists, deregulate Wall st. , and flips flops like a fish out of water on any issue, and do all that Obama has.
There is no differance folks. They all lie like hell. As for our "representational Democracy" (YES, I know we are a republic) it's of the government, by the government, for the government.
Cynical, you bet- But tell me where I'm wrong.
Ok supudbucket, I never mind learning new things, what would be the horrible ramifications that would occur if popular vote was brought back?
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Any government - ANY - over time becomes a support mechanism for the aristocracy. Government by the people for the people is a good idea, but in practice it is not so, obviously. Still, I don't think there are any better ideas out there at this stage in our social evolution.
I agree its much simpler having candidates campaign in the only state that counts Ohio.
Thank you, JP. Your logic proves you are making the right choice. When you grow up and join the real world, I hope you learn that there are a lot more issues to think about during elections. Nice cop-out.
So THIS guy faces the death penalty, and the guy who attacked our OWN soldiers on our OWN military base is held NOT as a terrorist, but as "workplace violence"? Despite his own attack screaming about "Allah"?
Both are equally heinous, but they should face the same penalties.
What Hasan did was far worse, not really so much an act of terrorism but the worst form of treason, in that he chose to make war on men and women who wore the same uniform that he did.
Hasan should face a firing squad regardless what they do to Bales.
I don't get all the fuss about whether it's terrorism or not. The Fort Hood shooting does not fit the legal definition of terrorism: "violence against civilians in order to pressure a people or government." Shooting a bunch of soldiers is not terrorism since they aren't civilians. It's still illegal and he's going to face punishment, but why all the argument over semantics?
momma.....agree with you 100% as should all Americans.
Hassan was a traitor and he's being handled with kid gloves... this kid is getting the death penalty fast-track.
Momma - Whether Major Hassan's actions are termed terrorism or not is immaterial to me, so long as he faces the death penalty as a consequence of his actions.
Both Sargent Bales and Major Hassan were probably psychologically unbalanced at the time of their acts. But I do not believe that either were legally insane, as in unable to judge the wrongness of their actions.
Both deserve the most severe penalty provided by military law, and I'll let whatever god resides in heaven [if any] determine whose crime was the worst.
Hasan desrerves the firing squad because he is a traitor to our country.
Hasan will never get the Death penalty much less a firing squad. Hell they can't even get him to SHAVE so that he can go to trial. He's a Muslim and the U.S.Government dearly loves their Muslims. And we don't want to upset the Muslim community, do we??
Hasan was a stupid man that though he could defend his country and do something for his people at the same time. Being a Muslin and having to attend to war victims who hated Muslims, not to mention living in a base where people did not want his presence, he must have been under a lot of tension, so he broke. As a result he did the same thing his detractors would have said he would do.
Hasan is not a traitor, he is a sick man that lost control. That doesn't change the fact that he killed innocent people and he should pay for it. If the death sentence is the right thing then that's what he should get.
It all just seems fairly hypocritical to me...
For the Afghans to need this...obviously mentally unstable and in desperate need of
psychiatric help...solder, to be punished for the exact same thing the Afghans
have been doing to our soldiers for the past 10+ years...seems hypocritical.
How many soldiers are we down now...??? Isn't it over 3000???
Yeah...I know everyone is going say they were "unarmed civilians"...but it's
not as if we haven't had our soldiers ambushed by seemingly "unarmed civilians"
before this incident happened.
Yeah...I know everyone is going say they were "women and children"...but it's
not as if we haven't had our soldiers ambushed by "women...sometimes pregnant
with children" strap bombs to themselves and take out as many of us as
possible...before this happened.
Where...I have to ask those who will claim the aforementioned...are the trials for those individuals? Where is the higher-standard to which they should be held
responsible? Where is the justice for the loss of yet still more American
lives?
The reason we will never, ever win this fight...is because we are playing by rules
that simply no longer exist.
There is no such thing as knowing your enemy or honour in battle anymore.
These are back-dated notions that have no place in a world were pregnant women
sacrifice themselves and their unborn to make a political statement…A world
where a Monday morning's peace is shattered by our own airplanes being used as
weapons against us.
The rules have changed people...and we need to judge our actions and the actions of
others...accordingly.
I am not saying what he did was right, or permissible in any way.
What I AM saying is that we are judging his actions by the rules of our own ordered
society...except he wasn't IN an ordered society at the time.
He needs help. He needs counselling. He needs rehabilitation. He, like the rest of
us, needs to feel that if we obey the rules set down...then we will be safe.
Except the people he is accused of harming are the very ones that taught us the
valuable lesson that this is simply not so.
That our rules are our rules alone. And that their only rules...are that there aren't any.
As an American...he gets the death penalty.
As an Afghan...we would be held as a hero, his family lavished with gifts and
money and his place in their version of Heaven waiting for him when he meets his
maker at a ripe-old-age.
And THESE are the people we are seeking justice for?
THESE are the people we are willing to sacrifice the life of one of our own for?
Yes...the rules have certainly changed.
Laura K - The Afghan people, all 20 plus million of them, are not collectively guilty for individual acts of terrorism by individuals or rogue elements of that nation. This is not a case of quid pro quo, where we get to kill a certain number of innocent civilians in retaliations for our soldiers deaths at the hands of turncoat Afghan soldiers, or via improvised explosive devices (IED).
Yes, he was. He was a member of the U.S. military, which is one of the most ordered societies in the world. He was subject to military discipline and law, not Afghan law, and he must have known it.
We are there pursuing our own agenda, which is to establish a stable and responsible government, one which will not act as host to an Al Qaeda-style terrorist organization. Yes, we would prefer that this responsible government be democratic, administer western-style laws, and equality for women. But our primary goal is to root out threats to our own security. If you have any doubts on this, I suggest you view old videos of the 9/11 attacks.
The Afghans know this. You should too.
I will say that the time for us to leave is definitely here. We've done all we reasonably can to stabilize the country. Osama bin Laden is dead [Cheers!]. There is nothing else to be done.
But, the rule of military law still applies in this case and this soldier should be punished accordingly.
I thought this was a place to post comments not arguments...but in defence of my eariler posting:
Any individual soldiers "primary goal" may be to assist our country's safety...but you are simply fooling yourself, and no one else I might add, if you are going to state that the reason why our government went in the first place and has stayed so long, has anything whatsoever to do with anything less than money.
I note your sarcastic comments on other's postings as well...a poor man's wit is sarcasm. But since you are so fond of it, I might mention that perhaps a quick review of the news more current than 1980, might enlighten you to the obvious fact that *Spoiler Alert*...There is no such thing as Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy or a...how did you put it..., a "stable and responsible government" in the Middle East. And all the military presence, bombs, shooting and wishing...won't make it so.
And if you are still unsure of this...maybe YOU should review old recordings of the 9/11 attacks.
After all...as you said so very eloquently...
The Afghans know this. YOU should too!
The comments here are opinions. Nothing more or less. There has been, in case you didn't actually bother to read the article, no trial as of yet.
So, as you were able to piece together before..."the rule of military law still applies in this case"...and that means he is inocent until proven guilty.
Therefore, your take on the soldier's situation is just as unimformed and based upon nothing more than conjecture and assumptions, as the rest of our opinions.
I cannot think you capable of the enlightenment empathy brings based upon your postings...So, my only wish for you is that, should you one day find yourself in need of it...that you encounter the same understanding, kindness and mercy you are so very ready to offer others.
dman - You use quite a broad stroke when depicting Afghans. Because individuals use IEDs to kill foreign soldiers, ALL Afghans are to be held responsible?
Should we make the same erroneous judgment when lone US soldiers/citizens perpetrate the same kind of heinous action (killing defenseless people)? Of course not!
Lashing out indiscriminately against a populace only generate enemies faster than you can kill them, especially if the perpetrators are foreign nationals. This has been observed time and time again. Sadly nobody has yet come out with a solution.
If we are not in Afghanistan to restore order and peace, or if we are not able to accomplish that goal, what are we still doing there?
Bottom line...we do NOT belong there...never have and never will...let the politicians who believe in this quagmire, go fight...if they can't or don't want to, then obviously it isn't that important, now is it?
Why does everyone keep saying "innocent civilians"? How do YOU know? Some sure, not all. I agree killing without proper trial is wrong anywhere... wait, in war we kill without proper trial, so he had to give the enemy (in his mind these are the enemy) proper trial but they can just kill US Soliders, his friends!, indiscriminately? Okay I know the "right" answer but doest it seem messed up? to anyone?
And "unarmed civilians" as well... HOW DO YOU KNOW? When we did house to house searches in Iraq almost every home had at least one AK47 and every once in awhile we would find an RPG so don't give me that unarmed crap.
Yes what he did was wrong but don't paint these civilians as being sleeping innocents either. At most I can assuredly say they at least knew who the bad guys were and weren't saying anything. In fact I believe that he went out, and he SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GO OUT ON HIS OWN, and was questioning them one by one to find out who the bad guys were. I guarantee he knew the area had a high probability of having bad guys in it!
One last thing: The gate guards- complicit. The guy he woke up and told, the one who shrugged and rolled over and went back to sleep- complicit.
"Yeah...I know everyone is going say they were "unarmed civilians"...but it's
not as if we haven't had our soldiers ambushed by seemingly "unarmed civilians"
before this incident happened."
I am not aware of any instance in which our troops were attacked by little girls sleeping in their homes. Are you?
"Yeah...I know everyone is going say they were "women and children"."
Gee, I wonder why so many people would say that. Maybe because they WERE women and children. I don't know why you use scare quotes here-- no one disputes the fact that women and children were killed.
"I am not saying what he did was right, or permissible in any way."
You could've fooled me...
"Except the people he is accused of harming are the very ones that taught us the valuable lesson that this is simply not so."
You mean the individual women and children that he is accused of massacring?
Please, Laura, explain the reason for the "Reply" link at the bottom of each thread, which I used to respond to you, and which you used in turn to respond to me.
Why do they place that there?
I dispute that there is any money to be made by the U.S. in our involvement in Afghanistan. Individual companies, those that supply the military, may make money. But for the U.S. as a whole, Afghanistan is a sink-hole into which we have poured money and lives. Your attribution of a monetary motive, when Osama bin Laden remained alive and at large until last year , and while the Taliban was and is still active reveals an overwrought imagination, and a thought process disengaged from factual reality.
But, whether it be money, as you claim, or national security as I believe, either way, we are in Afghanistan pursuant to our own needs, NOT, as you stated, to seek justice for the Afghanistan people.
My, my, Laura, you are full of "news", and I'm pleased to note that you are avoiding sarcasm.
Your are also avoiding facts. There may be no Santa Clause or Tooth Fairy in the Middle East, but if you've ever picked up an almanac or perhaps a current newspaper, you might have noted that Turkey , a Middle East nation, and a NATO ally, has had a democratic government since the 1920s, and has accorded women the right to vote for decades.
I wonder just how you define "stable and responsible government".
Facts, some people are allergic to them.
Yes, I never claimed otherwise. If he is found innocent, then he should go free.
Laura, I base my "take" on the information in the article, not on your opinions. The case against Sargent Bales is strong and based both upon his own admissions and the evidence given by his own fellow soldiers. Trust me, I would not base an assertion that the sun would rise tomorrow on your opinions.
Sorry, laura, I'm not going to get all worked up by your assessment of my character [see my above comment regarding your opinions].
Silverback - please go back and reread my opening sentences:
I said precisely the opposite. I was responding to Laura K's rather silly speculation that the actions of rogue Afghan soldiers and/or private individuals, in some way justifies the actions of Sargent Bales, or mitigates guilt.
Are we going to execute all those who dropped bombs from manned aircraft and drones that killed many civilians? Are we going to execute those that gave those orders? No! How is this different, other than one does it without seeing the victims and one does it seeing the victims? Both horrible, yet one is OK? I actually put no blame on either; the blame is with the civilians in Washington who wage war for their "bosses" (corporate boardrooms), who gain tremendous wealth/power during wartime. This is the most sickening part of our entire war industry!
One is counted as accidental and the other cold blooded murder.
Exactly right. And to expand on your point may I add -
If prosecutors seek the death penalty against this Soldier, fine. If that's the case, we should ALL be DEMANDING that prosecutors seek the same for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al. ALL of these morons who precipitated these asinine wars need to be held accountable. EVERY LAST ONE OF THESE CLOWNS!
How many innocent so called civilians have been killed in war, guess they should hang everyone including the ones that sent them and the ones that pulled the trigger that would be a large list could start with Iraq, what a stench world always looking to hang somebody but not so zelous when it comes to themselves.
Paul - how clever of you: you actually figured out that in wars, declared or otherwise, collateral damage to civilians occurs!
I'm impressed.
Maybe next you can find a way to turn back the clock to the early 1800s, when all combatants wear brightly colored uniforms, march in close order, and shoot only at one another.
I wonder why we never prosecuted those who dropped thousands of bombs on Germany during WWII. Civilians were killed there too.
Your's is a silly comment.
Fair exchange off opinions and ideas, until someone comes along and is condescending and insulting. WTG dman. Feel better now?
And Obama prosecuted too for all of the Pakistani civilians killed by drone strikes!
It is pretty sad when someone cannot see the difference between collateral damage (when someone gets killed attempting to kill the enemy) and someone going on a shooting spree/rampage and killing innocents. You may hate the military but please take your hate elsewhere.
Comparing this act to drones or precision bombing is totally idiotic. In the latter case, we are targeting hostile enemies while doing everything in our power to avoid civilian casualties. Yes, they do happen and that really sucks. However, this soldier allegedly went on a killing spree murdering innocent civilians, mostly women and children. That is just plain disgusting. I don't care how angry you are about something, you just don't go out and kill random people who most likely have nothing to do with your problems !
I pointed out the rather obvious fallacies of Paul's simplistic post. If I wasn't gentle enough for you, sorry but his ideas were not worth a gentler response.
dman-353357, I wonder if the collateral damage was in your neighborhood or perhaps your house, if you would have the same convictions you have now? We have 180 difference in thought, but that's what makes an environment for people to find areas where they agree and stand together as Americans.
I love our military personnel, if some would read my comments more carefully, they might see that. BTW, I'm a retired, disabled U.S Naval Officer, and do not say my comments lightly!
regards,
Paul Hester
This soldier disgraced the US internationally, and made the US mission in Afghanistan much harder, and gave the Taliban a clear PR victory. Let's punish him for all the soldiers who now face a greater risk for what he did.
Obiously was not thinking properly
I agree he deserves to be punished, but let us not forget all the terrorists and potential mass murderers in Guantanomo Bay, they should be punished with everything this soldier gets plus.
Ahhh, people believe everything they read if it sounds official. There are children who survived the attack that said that Bane (oh, excuse me it's Bales) was not alone.
As far as I'm concerned, this is only an opinion based on things that have happened in the past, Bales is the fall guy for a mission that went sour. The unit went into those villages trying to force suspected combatants out but there were none and they were left with no explanation for the killings they committed. So, they used the drunken fall guy and will have him killed so that the truth will be buried.
Death penalty for American soldier???? no way !
what about the "friendly fire" soldier who killed our troops on AMERICAN soil.....he gets NOTHING???????????????????????????????????????
This country is a joke
RBknows,
I'm shaking the box upside down that holds the question marks and they're all gone. Did you have to be so damn greedy?
What if that was your daughter, your granddaughters, your wife, your sister, your people? He murdered 16 women and children. Take away the politics and what you have left is an angry man that's been over worked, under paid, been drinking and is stuck in the desert with a grudge.
Sometimes even the most decorated of any people have a snapping point. He acted poorly on his anger and it cost a mother, a wife, a sister, a daughter and a people their lives. I couldn't be on that jury; I couldn't hold a mans life in my hands regardless of his actions.
This man sir is clearly a terrorist and deserves nothing but the exact treatment terrorists get meted out to them! See you in hell you P.O.S!
What terrorist captured in these wars has been executed yet? There was even talk about giving terrorists civilian trials. Our soldiers seemingly get judged far harsher then the enemy.
Actually, Matt, if I ever get accused of a crime like terrorism, I would rather be executed quick rather that a slow death under constant torture. It would be even worse if I were innocent.
To me this sets a very bad example. War is hell no doubt. Combat like that in this country is double hell. This soldier lost it mentally and now We are going to kill him instead of help him. Makes me want to go fight for a bunch of people that won't fight for themselves. What he did was way wrong but maybe we were way wrong for putting him there in the first place. This hole thing stinks to high heavens.
Many hole things stink.
We can not become what are enemy's are. At first I thought he should be executed and then I realized how it could of been any of us who served in the armed forces who snapped and committed this act. I would not want to be on a jury to convict him.
Just like in Vietnam the military is going to serve up this solder up on a silver platter just to appease the enemy. And they have been the enemy since day one.
With his 4th tour this guy didn't just wake up one morning and decided to go on a killing spree. There is so much more going on here.
And just like in Vietnam we will never know the full story.
Waiting for the UN Ambassador to get on Tv and say, "It was a spontaneous act prompted by a video- "Man on Fire."
Being in Kansas is horrific enough. Having to go to Ft Leavenworth Kansas for life has to really suck. Rather be shot.
While I do not condone what this man did, I have to wonder what emotional damage he had. Four (4) tours over there in that hell hole could make anyone go bonkers. Why is the army so quick to kill him when he may have a true case of post-stress disorder while the muslim who killed our military men, women, and dependants in Texas sits in a cell for a couple of years and keeps playing his little games to get out of his trial? What's wrong with this picture?
Not all people are good so we can't expect that our military somehow enlists only the good people in their ranks. I believe the death penalty is appropriate in this case. However, after 4 tours with constant threats against his life, even good people can go bad. We need to get our troops out of that God forsaken hell hole and all others. If needed, we can use pinpoint assaults against our enemies instead of dooming thousands of American soldiers.
We need to get the hell out of the Middle East and let them keep killing each other. We have problems with our own boarders and infrastructure that need rebuilding here. Another question, why would anyone be allowed four tours in a combat zone?
There would be no justice for these people if the taliban did this. So why should we sacrifice a soldier who, more than likely, was mentally broken at the time? Just to appease the Afgan government? A government that can't even tell their own citizens apart from civilian or terrorist, until they pull the pin on their suicide vest, yep that one was a terrorist and that one was civilian, so saith Karzi.
Has anyone bothered to ask if the regular attacks against patrol units from his post stopped? Did anyone bother to ask if he actually did get those responsible? Did he stop what would normally be the locals contribution to the death of US soldiers? By the so called civilians knowing about, yet doing nothing to stop, terrorist intentions? Other than his tactics being questionable no one has proven to me that he didn't kill the enemy or that he broke any law worthy of the death sentence in a war zone.
I don't want our troops to sink to the terrorist level of killing whole families to set examples. But lets face it, that is all that they seem to understand, I am guessing the neighbors got the message.
His actions may not be what we want the world to view our soldiers as. But just because they were women and children or not in uniform doesn't make them innocent. Or should we just presume that they were not the enemy because we don't like the terrorist choice of useing whole families to continue to kill under their false pretension of being civil?
That may well be the STUPIDEST post I have read this year.
Congrats.
Maddy-You are truly one sick,stupid and morally bankrupt individual if you can justify killing children ! Shut the @!$%# up !
women and children were the majority of victims.
Again it shows that not all in the military are heroes....This blanket military adoration is very misplaced.
How many here that advocate the death of this man would do so if he/she had to pull the trigger, throw the switch, or push the plunger? Yeah, thought so. Cowards!
If I thought he deserved the dealth penalty I could do it. However, shouldn't he first go to trial before we talk execution. I just hope he gets a fair trial & not used for propaganda to appease the enemy.
SSG Bales committed his horrendous act in March 2012. Nine months ago and his trial is already commencing.
Major Hassan committed his horrendous act THREE YEARS ago and is still not facing his peers at trial.
Can ANYONE explain why?
Because they (Afghanistani's) want revenge and we (U.S. Gov.) wants to keep them happy so they will be our friends.... which is also why we GIVE them over $900 million dollars a year.
I served ONE tour and I have PTSD. I hear alot of people on here saying "Kill him etc. etc. etc." I think few would have the fortitude to pull the trigger. I however know how it feels. After facing death so many times it becomes routine, then it becomes trivial. Then when you start to struggle at home and civilians have no clue as to how it feels and won't hire you because you might "crack" you get angry. Then when your mere existence is threatened, not by the firefights in Afghanistan but by the indifference of the US people you served to protect, you can go a little (more) nuts.
Support our Soldiers. Not just the good ones. I hate killing. I like the death penalty for those that just are not redeemable, but his guy served 4 freakin times! He deserves life.
"Can ANYONE explain why?"
Yes, I can very easily explain why. The answer is that Hassan's lawyers applied for stays, which were granted. Bales' lawyers didn't. Had they chosen to attempt to delay the trial, they would have very likely been successful. Sometimes criminal cases go to trial relatively quickly. Sometimes they take a long time.
Or perhaps you'd prefer to believe that Barack Obama personally ordered the military to delay Hassan's trial in order to... in order to.... well, I have no idea what possible benefit he would derive from such a delay, but I'll let you fill me in on that one.
Give him the death penalty. No special treatment because he's a soldier; he killed children. And this is coming from someone who is almost always against the death penalty.
You have obviously never seen a combat soldier break down. You have obviously never seen your friends blown to pieces by IEDs. You have obviously never seen the remains of people your enemy thought was helping you.
When you have seen any of this, pelase tell me how you feel this man should be treated.
And I will tell you that I am one who is a proponent of the death penalty.
Your online name is: 'Courage'... 'Love'... 'Peace'... 'Live'...
Yet you want this man killed. Someone who is "almost always against the death penalty". ?? So what do you REALLY stand for?
You are a walking contradiction if there ever was one LOL! What a joke!
My grandpa was a World War II veteran. He was a sniper in Nazi Germany through much of the war. He saw MANY more people killed, saw the concentration camps, and ultimately his left leg was amputated in a hospital in Germany after he was shot twice in it.
He didn't go into houses and murder sleeping families and little babies.
I suppose you want to give this trash a medal? Let's give the other serial killers one too then while we're at it.
If you're suggesting I advocate what he did as being commendable then that is ridiculous. However, I do support due process and a fair trial. I don't support Salem Witch Trials or crazies grabbing a rope and lynching people or other primitive ways either.
What was behind him snapping and going into the houses to shoot those people? Why did he do what he did? Evidence must be presented, psychological analysis, many factors before a clear case can be made. He's a soldier fighting for his country and for some reason he apparently snapped and did something crazy, out of character. The court must make sense of this before sentencing can occur.
Also, I don't mean to poke fun at you about your online name but, I'm sorry, it does seem rather 'tree-hugger' sounding in comparison to your desire to see people be executed. Just sayin' -nothing personal! I'm sure you're a nice person & care & all that.
CourageLovePeaceLive
I applaud your grandfather for his service. I also applaud my late father, three uncles, two cousins and my father-in-law for their service in WWII. I also saw Viet Nam service, and as a non-combatant in Afghanistan and Iraq. Interestingly I never got a Purple Heart as I wasn't wounded in VN. I was wounded once in Afghanistan and once in Iraq.
So, unlike you I speak not only from stories, but from first hand experience.
No, I don't want to give the man a medal. He perpetrated an horrendous act. But he should not be executed. He needs EXTENSIVE mental health assistance. He needs to be brought back into the world of reality and civility. Remember, it was the military that made him what he is. Remember it was WAR that made him break.
When YOU endure what he and countless others have endured, then and ONLY then will you be a position to judge him.
xdm- Some lines cannot be crossed and killing women and children in their homes in the middle of the night is one of them. This was not an operation that went terribly wrong. This was an act of a vicious deranged killer. Our armed forces are made up of volunteers not conscripts. He made a choice to become a soldier so spare me the woe is he bull. He brings dishonor to all that wear the uniform and strive to serve with honor.Saying that you can only judge him unless you have been there is as dumb a thing as I have ever heard.
You say we are not able to judge him, but are we sitting on a jury doing just that?Are we not expressing our opinions in a very important issue which has implications for our country and our soldiers in the field. Vetting of emotions can sometimes change the way we initially think about an issue, and attacks at other opinions should be less important than building a theory of cause and effect for a crime as in this case. Nation building was America's mistake here; we exposed our troops to worthless danger and expected too much from them with numerous tours whether they volunteer for it or not. Poor planning from the onset of hostilities, was a sign of trouble ahead. People in charge of operations made inaccurate statements about the road ahead ; a quick resolution in Iraq, using Iraq oil as a cash flow for OUR exspenses, were empty promises to the public and troops. The rule of war, speaking financially, should be you have to pay for it to get into it, saying the cause seems worthy. No blank checks.
SUIII
Spoken like a true REMF.
Yes, he crossed a line and I never said he should not be punished. But I DID say he should not be executed like so many want.
And while he is a volunteer, how many tours should anyone spend in a hell hole? If we're to fight a war, FIGHT A WAR. Stop the BS of going out, like they did so often in VN, Afghanistan and Iraq of taking a hill to give it back to the enemy later that night.
So, yes, I will say again, until you've been there, don't judge.
What's a true REMF? And are there false ones?
"We the unwilling
Led by the unknowing
Are doing the impossible
For the ungrateful."
The US put a young man is this situation and then are surprised when he 'snaps'.
And that Muslim that Murdered the Fifteen soldiers in Fort Hood gets, What??? So far no trial for that Muslim and it's been Three years since the Murders. I guess they don't want to upset the Muslim community by trying him. And I would bet the Farm if I had a farm that they don't ask for the death penalty. And to top it ALL Off our government is just calling the murders at Fort Hood "Work Place Violence" not a terrorist attack. Even though that Muslim was yelling Allah Akbar when he was shooting the soldiers.
Kinda makes you sick now, doesn't it?
Obama will grant him a pardon once if he gets reelected.
Richard: Did you just suggest Mr. Obama gets 4 more years. :)
Tarzan: I don't know about you, but I hope we never drop to the level of gauging what justice is based on the influence, actions, or examples of terrorists.
And, yes, the chaplain was a terrorist....in the name of god...I wasn't there but I'm sure there was plenty of terror that day.