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Brennan Linsley, AP
World War II combat veteran Ben Kauffman, 86, carries an American flag as he listens to a speaker during a Veterans Day ceremony in Loveland, Colo., on Nov. 11. Cultural fault lines clearly run between the generations that saw action in different conflicts or that wore the uniform in different eras, including peacetime.
The war stories from his grandfather, though sparse in detail, blended one moment of explosive drama with a vague reference of death — all wrapped around a description of how old-school military men used to handle both experiences.
David Weidman, who spent two tours in Afghanistan with the Air Force, recalls his late grandfather, a veteran of World War II and Korea, telling him that he survived having his body and his Jeep blown through a wall. He did not reveal to Weidman where that attack happened. He also gave his grandson some advice: “You don’t want to be in a foxhole talking to a guy one minute and then you turn around and he’s dead. You just don’t want to experience that.”
“He said he just dealt with it all. It’s that same mentality: ‘I did what I had to do. I got myself better then I went back to work.’ Other than that, he never spoke about the wars at all. That tells me he never did deal with it,” added Weidman, 32.
Cultural fault lines clearly run between generations of veterans who saw action in different conflicts or who wore the uniform in different eras, including peacetime. The refrain echoed by some older veterans to some younger ex-service members: “We had it so much harder than today’s military.”
It is, quite likely, a tradition that hearkens back to the Civil War or possibly the Revolutionary War, according to some ex-service members. But many post-9/11 veterans who have chatted with older veterans revealed the sentiment they've often heard carry the same note: “We just came home, put our heads down and got to work — without any whining."
Buried, not so subtly, in that message is that the current crop is a tad less tough and lot more needy. Some of that cultural gap may have to do with how aging veterans were taught not to talk about combat stress whereas today's military members are constantly urged to open up about any symptoms of anxiety they're feeling. It's a battle of Macho circa 1945 or 1970 versus Macho 2012.
This age-old cultural chasm between military generations has been further fueled in recent years as the modern American armed services welcomed far more women into its ranks (about 15 percent are female), and as the federal government repealed the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy, which barred openly gay people from serving their country, modern veterans say.
“Human nature is that we all resist change, especially as we get older. The cultural changes, especially within the military, are hard to swallow by some people my age,” said Craig Roberts, who served as a carrier-based Naval pilot, flying missions over Vietnam from 1969 to 1971.
“I’m in my 60s now. And (some veterans my age) just take a blanket view of the military as softer now, that it is a less-difficult experience to live through. I don’t think that’s true at all,” Roberts said. “In combat, it doesn’t matter what gender is next to you, the experience is the same.
But the generational disconnect among veterans also impacted Roberts and tens of thousands of his fellow service members after they returned from an unpopular war in the early 1970s.
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“We of the Vietnam era experienced some of that when we joined veterans services organizations — or attempted to join — and many felt rejected by the older fellas there from Korea and World War II,” Roberts said. “Because there was a resentment — they perceived that they had seen more severe combat than we were in. There may be some truth to that.
“So I think it may be a generational thing. As one gets older, one views one’s past life — the hardships and, sometimes, the triumphs — as being greater.”
Heroes of long-ago wars find new homes with families across the country through a program that keeps the veterans out of nursing homes or hospitals.
While heading an organization that represents more than 200,000 veterans of from Iraq and Afghanistan, Paul Rieckhoff said he’s become well aware of what he calls “a little bit of a sibling rivalry” between generations of veterans.
“We all generally stick together (as veterans) but some of it is just more deeply ingrained,” said Rieckhoff, founder and chief executive officer of Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America. In Iraq, he served as an infantry platoon leader, leading 38 men on more than 1,000 mounted and dismounted combat patrols.
“This is also just the military: Everybody thinks everybody else had it harder than every generation that came after them. You go to Fort Bragg and they'll tell you how much harder basic training was (years ago). That’s always there,” Rieckhoff said. “I think there’s also some some level of fear and apprehension just around the evolution of our culture. It’s happening in the military, too."
That this version of the American military is the first to include so many women “is hard for some people to accept,” Rieckhoff added. “And now that ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’ has been repealed, that too is hard for some people to accept.”
While some young-old divides certainly exist within pockets of the veteran community, Rieckoff said “a tremendous sense of unity also descends generations." As evidence, he cited the fact that that the chairman of IAVA’s board (Edward Vick) is a Vietnam veteran and that, before Thanksgiving, Rieckhoff received a letter of support from former Sen. Bob Dole, a World War II veteran.
“I think most veterans, no matter what era, including my era — Vietnam — are not resentful, whatsoever, of the treatment given to today’s veterans,” Roberts added. “In fact, we celebrate this. We applaud it. This is what is due to them. Their combat experience and ours, while it is apples and oranges in some ways, was still — all — combat experience. The stresses of combat are the same, no matter what the venue is, no matter what the era is.”
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The biggest change for the good is the VA providing PTSD, TBI and SCI care. Modern care that was not available until well after Vietnam ended. The whole buck up and do daily life without mental health and physical care is what does in a lot of troops and families.
The biggest change for the worse is repeated deployments. That will affect our military for a generation.
USAF 72-76
There's a story in the Marine Corps that observes the first Marine who went up into his ship and turned to watch the second Marine come aboard, and greeted him with, "You should have been here back in the Old Corps".
The Cold War- era veterans had it much harder than those currently fighting because the technology used today, such as night vision, laser-guided missles, unmanned drones, was not part of the military arsenal of "tools" back then. The training the soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen went through was also much different than today. The dependance on technology, and fighting during the DAY, is ultimately the downfall of our ability to fight.
The older vets certainly had in harder in Boot Camp than todays "yoga" trained GI.
Most people don't know that the federal government ran numerous hospitals across the country after WWI and WWII where veterans with horrendous, war-related mental health problems, alcoholism, and drug addiction were housed. Ten of thousands of veterans, including my great uncle, started out adulthood with great promise, only to be destroyed emotionally by their war experiences. Many of them were in and out of these institutions throughout their lives, with large numbers committing suicide, or drinking themselves to death. Reading an article in a local paper about my uncle, he is described as a "young man on the verge of great prominence," the supervisor at a local steel mill, and rising star in the county Republican organization. After he returned from WWI, he left his wife, and wandered around the country, much of the time being homeless, and checking into these government hospitals every few years due to unspecified conditions. Looking at one of the entries summarizing one of my uncle's stats at the Dayton veterans' hospital, I noticed that the entry before his shows the veteran had committed suicide, and was buried on the grounds of the institution. Both he and my uncle had lung damage from mustard gas. Clearly, not all veterans of previous wars returned home and just got on with their lives. These patterns have been repeating throughout the generations since war began.
World War III will be the worst of them all combined. I hope I'm not around to be in it!
No war is easy and nobody wants war! Today's war is easier in that the weapons are more high-tech and war is fought in great part from a distance. However, that also creates a problem in that when service members who were directly involved in bombings or attacks from a distance see the video and pictures of the results, it can cause difficulty dealing with it. Today's war is also easier in that many of the service members are able to keep contact with their families using email, video chats, text messaging etc. But, this can make it more difficult to handle the emotional side of missing one's home and family. The deployments are not as long as what many WWII veterans faced and they had little or no communication with their families--certainly not rapid response like today. I think it is comparing apples and oranges to try to decide what war is more difficult. Simply can't be done! My husband is a retired and disabled Air Force aviator and veteran of Desert Storm and Viet Nam. His service was difficult at times and his wars were a trial for the entire family but we are so proud of him and do everything we can to make his life good now. Every veteran from every war deserves respect, support, and empathy. Their journey was difficult in every case!!
My Dad is a Vet (1944-1964) and I am a Vet (1969-1993). In WWII (both European and Pacific Theaters) you were gone until the end of the War and came home. In 'Nam, you did one tour and came home or you could volunteer for another tour(s). Today's military, either Iraq or Afganistan, you end up doing multiple tours, without volunteering for the additional tours. Which Era had it worse, it is your own opinion, but think what it would have been like to have been in 'Nam for years or even in today's wars, for years until the job was done before you came home.
To All My Brothers (and Sisters) in Arms, past, present and future: I love you and God Bless!
Maybe if my dad, a WWII vet, had not "put his head down" and gotten to work "without any whining" he would not have died so young. He coped by drinking rather than talking. Thank God for PTSD treatments today.
That is the single good that has come out of the current war. Never has our government done more for its Veterans than it is doing now in the fields of mental health and physical injury.
It is true that there are better and more advanced treatments available but the vets with PTSD are still not getting the care they need. It is a very difficult condition which manifests itself differently in every single person. My husband is a "put your head down and get busy" kind of guy and when he came home from Viet Nam, that is really what he did. Their reception was not favorable and many simply tried to move on and not acknowledge their experiences. Then he went on to a military career and the PTSD was there but mostly under control and not interfering because he was happy and in the kind of environment he loved. Then he went to Desert Storm and that few months really was the straw that broke the camel's back. He retired soon thereafter and has been a changed man ever since. He still puts his head down and went to work with a brief career as an educator and now as a retired, disabled grandpa. His treatment consists of one medication and very erratic, nearly nonexistent visits with mental health. When he does see someone there, they tend to tell him he is not remembering correctly and that he needs to "think happy thoughts." So, he puts his head down and forges ahead. I provide the care management for his multiple medical issues, try to keep him from high stress, and provide a safe, comfortable home. He is a truly great guy and deserves so much more than he gets. He could get more mental health services if he was insistent enough but his experience has been that the people there simply don't have any clue what he is talking about so why bother? So, yes, there have been advances and the most severe are getting more treatment than they used to get but there are a great many who get virtually nothing because they are self-sufficient or just not severe enough to get the VA's attention.
Someday there will be a Star Fleet Marine Force having the same discussions that the Roman Legionaires did.
Military in my family complain about many of the same things. A lot of it comes from getting benefits they were promised, but not yet delivered. Unless there was a massive thinning in the bureaucracy, then most vets are likely dealing with the same BS.
Listen, ALL our veterans deserve our utmost thanks and respect. Can we not get into this business of whose service was tougher and whose return to civilian life was worse? It is totally inappropriate and demeaning to our Veterans, regardless of when and how they served out country.
What a disrespectful article to both generations.
of all the wars I've read about, the worst that comes to my mind occured 1861 to 1865. 600,000 Americans died because one side was unwilling to talk to the other. that is more Americans dead than all of our other wars combined. nest worse would have to be WW2. I would not have wanted to be on Guadalcanal at anytime. after my 2nd tour in Vietnam, was sitting on the patio with grandpa (Spanish-American), uncle (WW1) and two cousins, (WW2 and Korea), and asked if the nightmares ever go away. grandpa replied "how lon do you expect to live". no war is good. no war is beneficial. what it does to the individual is indescribeable. what it does to the family members waiting at home is just as bad as what happens to the soldier. PTSD can happen to any soldier at any time. the VA is just starting to understand what it is and brings it on.
Evolution of technology has changed the face of modern warfare, it has reduced the casualty rate, and improved logistical support. Does that make it any easier? I have my doubts. In WWI there was the trenches, and mustard gas, WWII got inferior gasoline powered battle tanks, that were a fire trap when hit, but better technology than before. The Korea vets were not as well accepted as their previous comrades, war had become more of a political issue, and that continued thru the Nam, the American people didn't want us there. So, when we came back, it was the soldiers that paid the price for the politicians that send us there. We saw weekly casualty rates that exceed the current totals. The only time I know of a movie star made a name for committing treason against the soldiers in captivity, and got by with it. The big difference I see in this generation is we were attacked on American soil, and the people found that unacceptable, so are more supportive. I support our troops, and they need every advantage our nation can provide, to paraphrase Patton, Don't die for your country, make the other poor dumb bastard die for his! If we can supply new technology that brings more troops home unharmed, reduces casualty rates, and takes lower numbers to do it, I'm all for it. As far as war goes, yeah, they are all bad wars, show me a good one.
My next door neighbor was in the Battle of the Bulge. His son was my good friend. We played their house and his joked around and played with us. If a war movie came on tv, he got quiet and left the room. Didn't understand it at the time. I do now. I want to thank all the vets for their service.
Actual combat hours/days in Vietnam were more than any war before or after. Vietnam you were on the firing line and on patrols daily. You were constantly under fire especially in base camps. t main bases there were rocket attacks way too often. No armored humvees, no body armor other than a flak jacket and a tin pot on your head. In the jungle on patrol there was snipers, booby traps (ied's) and any thing else you can imagine. Thirteen month tours' You didn't get to go home on leave, just five days of R&R. Step into a punji pit and get spike with sh*t encrusted bamboo spike and pray you aren't in triple canopy jungle and they can get a med evac in time. Personal I think for all that, I think the WWII and Korea vets had it worse with all of the casualties the took. Knockit down to one thing, if you are under fire it doesn't matter how much you have seen, just what's happening at that precise moment. You have to learn to deal with it. Semper fi.
why doesn't msnbc just thank all vets instead of comparing who had it worse and quit trying to pit them against each other
The older Vets came from a day when you had to do heroic deeds to be called a hero, unlike today when you could be a mess cook and be called a hero.
come back from a LRP to base camp and you might think it heroic for a bleary eyed cook to get up out of bed and prepare you a good hot meal
Well, none of us had it as bad as the Civil War vets. Speaking as a Vietnam infantryman, we had it OK. I don't think very many of us served two tours (most of us got out), and I only heard of the three and four tour guys. Never met one, at least in the infantry.
These guys have it much worse from that standpoint. I was slightly wounded twice, had intestinal stuff, lost a lot of weight--but I only was there for 13 months. Not so bad.
Hell, anyone who went into liberate the death camps in WWII.... will never, ever forget.
i have to say as a six year employee at a VA hospital, that todays soldiers are different...way more fragile minded; whether right or wrong, putting your head down and going back to work was what was necessary; being there for your wife, kids, family, whatever was what was necessary...obviously WW2 vets were on another level, and Vietnam guys had their problems but werent whining...but today, often, there's this sense of fragility, PTSD, etc...I know a guy who had a very cush job overseas, cooking i believe, was never in harms way..comes home and claims disability while his wife goes to work and makes 100K...honorable?
ya, sure that happen every day.... c'mon!!!
There are all kinds of people out there. Some people I have heard just came back from whichever war, picked up and took it for what it was, and went on with their lives, without much psy help. My dad was in WWII, came home, went to school on the GI Bill, prep school in Philly first cause he never graduated high school (but he graduated first in his prep class), and where he met my mom, and then college for engineering and he got into the aerospace field, becoming an actual rocket scientist of sorts I realized later in my life, among a lot of other projects that he worked on.
When he was about 45 and during the Vietnam war being on tv, about 1972 or so, he lost it and never worked again, and believe me me and my family have suffered the ravages of that damn war ever since. We sunk into poverty shortly after, and still limp along though both my parents have now passed, my mom on Xmas 1988, my dad a few ago also on Xmas. I think a lot of the psychological effects that people encounter, or their ability to deal with them, has a lot to do with the stability of heir family before they went into the war and afterward, but from what I've heard my dad's was nothing to write home about, but then again, a lot of those people in WWII were just coming out of the Depression. (The big-D one led to a lot of the small-d ones.)
I sure wish he had gotten some help through the years, or not gone to the war in the first place, but that's not a lot of how people did things back then, I see now. It sure did save my life though.
I also think that's a lot of why they don't allow as much footage being shown of war on tv anymore, to control the amount of ptsd that's out there in the country at home. The military's not dumb, they know what they're doing...
all war is horrible and i have the utmost respect for any person or animal that served our country no matter what war. when i saw saving private ryan i sat next a group of wwll vets who were a part of d day in normandy and after the first scene on the beach i almost got sick to my stomach. i looked over at these men and they all were crying and you can hear them say to each other that this is exactly what it was like and i could not believe what i heard but all of them to a man said that they would do it all again because it was the right thing to do. how many people today would say that today. i guess that is why they are considered the greatest generation ever. with that said thank god for all our vets in all wars for what they have given us.
yeah that's what i mean though, a friend of mine gave that band of brothers series to their family member who had been in that same war, and even though a lot of years had passed, probably 50 since the war, he i think killed himself. memories can be very powerful things, often with a life of their own. gotta watch out.
Nothing will ever be pretty about brutality, bloodshed and death.... no matter the time or circumstance... and much of it for what? Religion and oil.... pathetic!!!
Please note that my neighbor sent to afghan in second surge, jan 2010, and did not get his equipment for about 90 days. Only ate MRE's and pizza there. Suggest current soldiers and marines do not have it better than ww2, Korea, VN.
PS, Army tests indidvidual out the kazoo. There are some souls who should not be a rifleman. Previously, they woulda been casualties. Look at our ww2 Europe shooting statistics - percentage of soldiers firing their rifles and those who did - missing targets. Caused uproar, back then.