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Keith Myers / AP
In this Nov. 13 file photo, Micah Moore, 23, is escorted into the Jackson County Courthouse Annex in Independence, Mo., for his murder charge in the death of 27-year-old Bethany Ann Deaton.
Updated at 4:06 p.m. ET: An attorney for a Kansas City man charged with killing the wife of his prayer group leader said Wednesday that he made up his confession after other group members dropped him off at a police station.
Attorney Melanie Morgan said 23-year-old Micah Moore was distraught over the death of 27-year-old Bethany Deaton when he confessed to killing her and made a series of stunning allegations detailed by police in a criminal complaint.
Moore, who lived with Deaton and her husband, Tyler, in a communal home shared by male members of their prayer group, told police that several members had sexually assaulted Bethany Deaton and were worried she would tell someone. Moore said that's when Tyler Deaton ordered him to kill Bethany Deaton, according to the complaint.
Moore, who has been charged with murder, was scheduled for a preliminary hearing Wednesday, but that was delayed when the prosecutor's office asked for more time to take the case before a grand jury.
Afterward, Morgan read a statement recanting Moore's confession, which she described as "bizarre and nonsensical."
She did not address his allegations that Bethany Deaton had been sexually assaulted or that Tyler Deaton had ordered his wife's death. Morgan also declined to take any questions.
Tyler Deaton has not been charged in his wife's death. Jackson County prosecutor Jean Peters Baker has said Deaton is under investigation but declined to elaborate. Deaton does not have a listed phone number and did not respond to requests for comment The Associated Press made through Facebook and phone and email messages to his father.
Police have said Bethany Deaton's death initially appeared to be a suicide. Officers found a note and empty bottle of over-the-counter pain medication along with her body in a minivan parked by a lake on Oct. 30.
It wasn't until Moore confessed on Nov. 9 that they announced a homicide investigation.
Tyler and Bethany Deaton moved to Kansas City in 2009 from Texas to attend a six-month internship at the non-accredited International House of Prayer University. The two had met as freshmen at Southwestern University in Georgetown, Texas, in 2005, and two years later Tyler started a prayer group, a former longtime member of the group told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because he was afraid of retaliation from Tyler Deaton.
Tyler Deaton was listed at one point as a division coordinator for IHOPU's "friendship groups," but the school said that was a mistake. It issued a statement distancing itself from Tyler Deaton after Moore, a student at IHOPU, was arrested.
"Since Bethany's death it has come to light that over five years ago, both she and Mr. Moore joined an independent, close-knit, religious group in Georgetown, Texas," the school said in a statement. "This religious group of fewer than 20 people was led by Tyler Deaton. They relocated to Kansas City over the last few years and operated under a veil of secrecy."
IHOPU is the educational arm of International House of Prayer of Kansas City, an evangelical Christian group focused on missions and preparation for the end of time.
The Deatons' prayer group had at least two houses, with women living in one and men in another. Bethany Deaton, 27, moved into the men's house with Tyler Deaton after they married in August.
According to the criminal complaint, Moore told police that men in the house began drugging Bethany Deaton and sexually assaulting her soon after she moved in. He said she was seeing a therapist and group members became concerned she would tell the therapist about the assaults.
Moore and other men who lived in the house told police that several group members also were having sexual relations with Tyler Deaton, unbeknownst to his wife. One man, whose name was blacked out of the criminal complaint, told police that Tyler Deaton said after Bethany Deaton died that he had had a dream he killed his wife by suffocating her.
Moore told detectives Tyler Deaton instructed him to kill Bethany Deaton because he knew Moore had it in him to do it, and that Moore reported back to Tyler Deaton after she was dead. Moore told police that he had placed a bag over Bethany Deaton's head and held it there until her body shook.
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Leave a Comment:
You just gotta love organized religion.
Someone will probably try to argue this isn't what religion is about.
True, but the problem is you tolerate those among you who do.
I am sure you are going to get voted down Captain, but it happened under the guise of religion, so it's a fair statement. It's just so sad that a young woman is now dead, because those as$holes are a bunch of rapist.
Its like the Catholic Church's pedophile problem. They denounce it, but don't do anything to really bring them to justice. I, for one, agree with Christopher Titus as to what the church should do, pedophile crucifixions.
They definitely foster the environment that permits such violent and nasty acts. When you can say that it was gods will, or that god wanted it, it is self justifying because you cannot disprove or prove that. It's a shame that you leave such a huge door for people to justify anything that they want.
The Church will do what it always does to solve "problems". They pray. That solves everything. /sarc/
Nothing says out of touch with reality like Christians living in communes. Can you say Waco, Jonestown, and Colorado City?
Keep in mind that the Manson "family" operated under the same sort of delusions, and nobody would accuse them of being Christian.
This act, no matter the belief system of the group doing it, is reprehensible no matter who you are or what you call your Supreme Deity. Religion is just an excuse. Gangs involved in drugs will pass the wives and girlfriends of various gang members around, and if she 'snitches' she's killed, and younger member trying to join the gangs are often the ones told to 'put in work' for the gang by committing the killing. They do that for departing members too. This was a 'gang' of people led by a delusional, sick individual with narcissistic tendencies and the killer was a weak-minded individual unable to think for himself.
It's what you do that matters, not whose Name you do it in!
Organized religion. If you don't have military power or money to raise an army, claim god wants it done and you will have your army in no time. That pretty much covers the roots of organized religion. All the other wackjob crap they do is just a side affect of that process.
Never let anyone tell you what god wants from you.
Apparently the woman was either a willing participant, a weak personality or brain washed under religion to accept these guys. Bizzare!
Bizarre and tragic story, but really, IHOPU ?? It sounds like a place to get pancakes, or maybe it's "I hop you" ??
Just another indication of how strange and alienated from its origins religion has become, especially in the American south.
Amen brother amen
What "problem"? .. i am certain they don't see it that way ...an opportunity perhaps but not certainly not a "problem"
normally i would agree ..but then i think of tonight's powerball and poof....
They're "religion" was just about as 'organized' as Al Qaida members are devout Muslims. You just can't lump them in with mainstream religious beliefs. They were some secretive, religious cult, that's all.
Some church leaders call on their brainwashed congregation to kill their wife, others want you to start a war with Iran or to keep on killing Muslims in wars US wages in faraway lands.
If the pope can wage war in the name of gawd and heysus, what's one innocent girl?
Denton is clearly not qualified to run his church. He did even know that the church leader is suppose to have sex with the members wives not the members having sex with his wife. (sarcasm)
Suicide cardinals?....now we gotta be on look out for pointy hats as well as turbans?.....bummer
good catch devils son.....good catch......
Careful there... this wasn't "organized religion", this was a group that met together because they hated "organized religion, too". They started a small home group church... a fellowship church. These are actually more dangerous than the big money sucking, sheep processing borg, mainstream denominational churches. There are no checks and balances in these places. When something starts getting twisted, when some crazy power hungry person starts pushing buttons and manipulating in them, there is even less chance of being brought to task by leadership or anyone with a backbone in a larger congregation. There were only 20 people in this sick cult/sect.
Don't call this a church. This was just a place for sick religious people to have a better chance to work out their perversions and power hunger ways.
If we read the bible literally, Matthew seems to suggest that prayer and worship is meant for private, not meant to be done in synagogues or on streets...those people are hypocrites and the reward they are seeking is to be heard by everyone, to be seen as faithful and righteous.
But instead, GOD wants you to go to your room, close your door, pray in private - and do not babble on and on about what you want, GOD already knows before you say a single word.
but then again, the bible is full of contradictions...so I suspect there are other places in the bible that completely contradict Matthew 6:5-6:14
can you imagine what the world would be like if EVERYONE did their prayer and worshipping in private, and kept it all to themselves...and just did the good things GOD wants us to do?
essentially, just walk the walk...and cut the talk.
i imagine, it'd be the world GOD envisioned...but instead, we've got all these churches and their arrogant egotistical leaders, yelling from the mighty pulpit THEY are the direct line to GOD.
how mighty of them to declare, and how ignorant of so many to believe...that a guy in a robe should have to stand between them and GOD.
Oh, look! It's another assault on Christians. /s/ You know, that poor group the liberals are trying to deny rights to?
Good grief!
I agree that religion can be used as a powerful tool to manipulate people (and it sure is), but simply blame "organized religion" for that crime is ludicrous. It's akin to saying that America/Obama/the government (take you pick) is to blame just because it happened in the US.
"Oh, look! It's another assault on Christians."
No, this was christian on christian murder, not simply assult. Quit playing the victim. Deny rights? Grow up.
They want a theocracy and to teach my children there sick philosophy. The list of legit complaints about Christians in this country is to long to sound like anything but a Christian hating rant, so I wont bother, but I will say that Christians believe I am going to hell in a most condescending way.
You just gotta love somebody who believes you when you say "The voices told me you need to whack my old lady", regardless of their origin.
We tolerate those among us who do a lot of things we don't like, regardless of their beliefs.
Yes they can be and are lumped in with mainstream religion. Mainstream evangelism was clearly the structure of their church, and until the police report was made, I bet they could have fooled any Christian Fundamentalist. As they already had been fooling for years.
without religion, people would find other things to argue over. If it's not religion, it's land. The South Park episodes Go God Go illustrate this well, and humorously too.
Will people ever understand that their religions are simply a jobs program for spiritual hacks who've discovered they can make a living by lying with every single breath they take?
I mean, I'm all for being a spiritually enlightened individual. But religion?
I don't care if it's "organized," disorganized, or practiced by rubbing fairy dust all over your body.
Religions are the single greatest scam man has ever been able to propagate upon his fellow man. Your religions have made your gods sooooo small within the grandeur of the real, natural world ... it would be almost comical if it weren't so sad.
Here's a hint. If you believe in anything that seeks to put you at the center of it's belief system ... you may want to think for a second. Are you looking for true spiritual guidance to fulfill your path to "truth", or are you merely practicing the pseudo-virtue of "faith" to mask your own self-indulgence?
Death, is a natural part of life.
Lying to ourselves about this natural fact, and building individual paradises in the sky, does not negate the perils of reality.
Live people. And, live well.
Clearly conflict will not just disappear, however the venue that religion provides, is simply unfair to the challenged.
Conflict is natural ... it's a natural construct of human progression. And, it's not necessarily always a bad thing.
The problem comes when you take a natural phenomenon like conflict, and superimpose a supernatural substrate over top.
Religions change the rules in almost every single category. Whereas natural conflict can be resolved through argument, debate, reason and logic ... religion masquerades as "faith," and relies of absolutism and revelation.
And, the single most disturbing factor when discussing the difference between natural and religious conflict is the mutual relationship of "self-preservation". That's why the Cold War was so benevolent compared with the current Jihadist movements. Russian and the U.S. shared the common link of basically not wanting to destroy themselves. This is a simplification ... I realize, but take that factor away ... and all bets are off.
Learnt Hick, not all Christians are judging you (and me). Just the fake ones. It does seem that the so-called evangelicals are more likely to use their bibles to thump others on the head for the same things they do. It's ok, we know them by their fruits.
Are we just crazy or what?
I usually go to the church that tells me to love her, but hey, that's just me.
As I am not a Christian, they ALL judge me in that they ALL believe I am going to hell. It's subtle and condescending, but don't think the judgement isn't there.
How's that ex-gay thingy working for ya?
@Learnt Heck - why do you care if you don't believe in hell? That's along the lines of an adult getting upset because someone told them Santa isn't going to bring them any presents this year.
Agree. Religion has evolved far away from the original teachings of the Christ, the Buddha, etc., and for centuries has been only about power and control. It has always attracted the vulnerable and superstitious among us. H.L. Mencken said, "All religion is nothing but mankind's fear of the unknown, institutionalized as propitiatory magic and capitalized on by priests." Well said, in my opinion.
No, she was a victim - period.
Religious fanatics beware. Prayer groups can be detrimental to your health, safety and life! No way to tell who are the saints and who are the sinners. I'm not even sure any evangelicals know themselves or their capabilities.
If you read the history of many religions you will find that in fact, religion is all about enforcing the desired social order for the benefit of the people running the religion.
Saying so in the guise of a fictional story was what got Salman Rushdie a fatwa from the Ayatollahs of Iran. The "Satanic Verses" in his novel of the same name were the verses that the "prophet" inserted into the scriptures in order to get himself things he wanted, women and tributes and the like.
See also, every cult ever where the cult founder has his pick of the wimmins. It is the oldest story in the book. And remember, all religions are cults. Every last one of them.
If you believe in God, talk to Him directly, cut the middle man, he could be corrupted.
Absolutely.
A few weeks ago I was sitting at a bus stop waiting for my bus to go home when another bus pulled up at the curb. I also heard yelling and looked up the street to see a woman running toward the stop and waving her arms. I stood up and stuck my hand in the bus door, preventing them from closing and the bus from leaving until she got there. she looked at me and I think she was about to say 'thanks' when she saw the pentagram hanging next to my dog tags. The last words out of her mouth as she climbed on were 'you're going to hell'.
But she still caught her bus.
I do think she was christian--I saw a little gold cross around her neck.
In my case, it didn't bother me too much, but it was rather disappointing to find a Christian who did not practice what they preached.
I'm with Ghandi on this one-- "I would like you Christians more, if you were more like your Christ."
Amanda -- Why the pentagram?
Is that a religious thing, or are you just really into geometry?
Religion wouldn't bother me at all if they stayed out of my government. Medicine, education, foreign policy, science....Santa got me coal for Xmas and I didn't care 'cause I knew it was just my parents sick since of humor. No one ever tried to teach me to follow the teachings of Santa or tried to remove all teaching that contradicted the teachings of Santa from my kids school.
That is why I care.
Gimmie that ole time religion! Amazing!!!!
@Chad-1841583#1.43: A pentagram is a symbol of faith worn by many of different beliefs.
Very true...but I think the point here that is being missed, is that RELIGION DOES NOT MAKE YOU "MORAL".
This is the main claim of organized religion...that they are "better" people because of their beliefs. They interfere in our political process on the basis of having some moral authority. The fact is, religion does not make them better or kinder or more moral. It has no beneficial effect on their character at all.
If anything religion encourages bad behavior by asserting that mankind is inherently bad and incapable of being good, that we are at the mercy of magical outside forces (satan) that can also be conveniently blamed for the behavior, and then minimizes the consequences of immoral behavior by providing "forgiveness" on demand by an omnipotent deity.
Religion glorifies bad behavior by saying that a repentant sinner brings "more joy in heaven than 99 of the just". Witnessing is meaningless without the requisite history of "evil doing" that was magically overcome. And finally, people who are really sick and twisted can "hide in plain sight" within a religious community, behind a false wall of morality and respectability, because society has been brainwashed into assuming that religion makes people more moral than non-believers.
So do you feel the same about Islam? Becasue it sure keeps getting blamed for the evil deeds of individuals ... and NOT just by the media.
This is not a church, its a cult. I live in this area, and Deaton's prayer group was only loosely affiliated to International House of Prayer. He and the other members of his prayer group were very invovled in the 'church', but IHOP is distancing itself as fast as it can right now. That whole organization seems to draw in radicals.
Why do you say 'Him'? Why do you think God is male?
Not even close. The only reason these people knew each other was because of religion. The entire basis for their group was religion. The reason they lived together was religion. The reason they listened to the "leader" was religion. It wasn't a bar fight after work that had nothing to do with their job....it was their entire way of life and dictated where they lived and who they lived with.
Of course it does...but only under certain circumstances. Like if someone is caught working on a sabbath or sleeping around on their wife or disobeying their parents....the bible says to murder them. Then of course, there are wars, capital punishment, self defense and stand your ground laws.
We also have to note that xianity teaches that mankind is inherently evil, that it cannot control it's lusts, that it is being tempted by a magical invisible being intent on destroying them...and that women are inferior and it's not a big deal if you rape them.
It was the actions of the whole group...didn't you read the story? They were all drugging and sexually assaulting this poor woman. Hard to take confessed murder, conspiracy, drugging and multiple rapes "out of context". No matter what context they are in...they are equally heinous.
Absolutely disgusting. I hope they all rotten in jail.
yep thus far all one of him is "rotten in jail"....
Hi, Scooter.
*shrug:Sorry about the mistake Scooter.
I still wish I could kick the living crap out of all of them.
no biggy , not picking on ya jahmekan i definitely am not a member of the vine SP&G/PD, hell they wont even let me be a "ride along"...it just struck me funny. in one of my "moods" today i guess.
I can't even spell my name correctly.
that's an easy one hick... it's..... c-o-r-r-e-c-t-l-y......hope that helps....
As I've always said, religion is the bane of human existence. On a separate note, the article states, "It issued a statement distancing itself from Tyler Deaton after Moore, a student at IHOPU, was arrested." Yep folks, that's the other problem. You don't mix religion and pancakes.
That's what religions do...when another one of their own is caught doing something heinous...they just toss them off the bus. "Not one of ours. Never heard of the guy." It gets a tad more difficult when entire groups are involved or when the problems are systemic in the religious organization.
Maybe if they didn't teach that women are inferior, that men are incapable of controlling their lusts and that satan is really responsible for every disgusting thing they do...and their only "crime" is "giving into satan"...it wouldn't be so bad.
Missouri has the death penalty, screw jail. These guys need to fry.
Damned Christians - at it again!
There is nothing remotely Christian about anything this group did... from living in a commune to participating in group rape to murder.
Anyone can call themselves a "cowboy" but it doesn't mean they can ride a horse.
feed em to the lions....
they are Texans after all ......of course that didn't work so well last Thursday, but that's only because there where zebras involved.
I can't see into the heart of any man or woman. If you say your a Christian, your a Christian. That is the way Christianity works anyway, profess belief in Jesus as the son of man and your in. The elevation of Paul (Saul) to such a dominant place in their teachings (the Bible) says allot about what the church will put up with.
Hey Hick,
Who says it works that way? Jesus didn't say that, and that's not found in isolation in the New Testament. The Gospel of Paul is the only tract in the Bible that frees gentiles from Jewish Law. That's why Peter's best disciple, who later became the first Bishop of Rome, wrote a 1000 page Treatise called "The Pauline Heresies". Jesus never freed you from Jewish Law. You might want to read a little more of your Bible before you go spouting off there.
The only thing damned, little atheist, are those who reject Jesus Christ.
Humans are born in a state of damnation and stay that way absent repentance and true faith in Jesus Christ.
Anybody that thinks they are better than these murderers, think again.
@Scooter -
Can't feed 'em to the lions, the lions have been put on the endangered list, think of the possible damage to their digestive systems... pseudo-Christians??? ugh!!!!
That's hard to swallow regardless of your species.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him will have everlasting life."
I read the Bible most days.....most of my family is indoctrinated and it's the only way to understand half the madness they spew. I would suggest you try reading it yourself.....but it can be a dangerous thing to do.
I got ya Hick. But you can't use that in isolation from the rest of "god's word's." "Belives in him" has some well scripted instructions.
Say this "There is no God but God, and Mohammad was his Prophet" Now you are a Muslim.
Say this "Jesus Christ was the Son of God and died for my sins" Now you are a Christian.
Rinse and Repeat. In both cases, it just the first step, whole lot more dogma to comply with after that, otherwise - God would have giveen us John 3:16 and left out the part about keeping slaves.
Have 3 Bibles here (different versions), a concordance, book of Mormon, Quran, Torah. Former born again Christian. Now sane.
Herald9 - you just proved that little girl who was abused by her parents (locked to the dresser) and then just recently killed (and probably raped) by her neighbor probably wont be going to heaven.
but the guy that raped and killed her, all he has to do is say sorry, believe in jesus, and VOILA - he's in.
Thats the sickness you believe in...sorry, not my cup of tea.
and yes, if we believe the bible is truth IT IS THAT EASY...otherwise, no one would be going to heaven...it'd be emptier than a can of mountain dew at honey boo boo's house.
Comparative religion is my former field of study by way of Jungian Psych. I have to many religious books around to count and still keep up! lol I wish you the best of luck with your continuing recovery!
The real issue here is Dogma in Obedience out. Scale is beside the point. The details are changed on the barn wall whenever the pigs need something new. The Bible is so vast a read that most anything can be justified from its pages.
Maybe this guy was just offering up his wife so the men wouldn't "lie" with each other. /lol/cry
This guy wouldn't be in this mess at all if they still taught critical thinking in schools.
Well 'speaking' of that, it would do any student, enrolled or lay, of comparative religion, real good to study Jungian psychology.
Good Call Annie
Like you, I believe Critical Thinking is a lost art in our education system!!
they should outlaw critical thinking in school.......oh wait they already did....never-mind....
Hey Scooter
They do recitation, as they believe that is education and you learn from the learned ones! By regurgitating verbatim is how they get to be an "A" student!
helps thin the herd big time...
In the words of Everclear, which fit perfectly into so many of these situations regardless of which faith the person aligns.
"...there's a monster, living under my bed. He's whispering in my ear. And there's an angel, with her hand on my head, she says I got nothing to fear..." "...and there's a darkness, deep in my soul, still got a purpose to serve..."
Which faith doesn't matter because too often, man will believe that the angel (obviously aligned with his faith) is vindicating what that monster is whispering about and the man will act-out the purpose he believes he is serving.
Herald9
Not true...you are damned. You are wrong about all of your beliefs and you will burn in hellfire for eternity.
Not really. There is no hell. But I wanted to see if you thought that felt rude or insulting or just plain crazy to hear. I wondered if hearing it made you instantly question your beliefs and want to change them.
Yeah..didn't think so. So why would you say that to someone else? Just to be a jerk? Just to feel better about yourself? All special and righteous?
How convenient. Then they can rape, pillage and generally act like criminal scum and it's not their fault. They were born that way. I see.
I ABSOLUTELY think I'm better than these murderers. I've never raped anyone, never murdered anyone, and never drugged anyone. Most of the known universe is better than these guys.
I was wondering how a "prayer group" goes that nucking futs and then (emphasis added):
Yeah, that pretty much answers that one.
Thanks for the education. I thought it was a school where you could learn to cook pancakes.
Bill,
LMAO - wonder what flavors/varieties IHOPU does?
The devil made him do it.
But, but, but.......that's what Jeebus told him to do. Just ask the "prayer leader", who has a direct hotline to Jeebus.
Well if God told him to murder..it must be ok...hey it worked for Bush as he sent 5000 Americans to their wasted deaths in Iraq...god made him do it
ever hear of first read? they love that kinda stuff over there...join em.....
Ban drugs, religion, horny guys, snitches, and of course plastic bags............(did i cover it right takenada?)
When guns are outlawed......lol
Scooter you're ruining the fun.................besides if we ban horny guys, half the population of earth would disappear.
You forgot bottled water. Gotta ban that stuff.
punisher: "besides if we ban horny guys, half the population of earth would disappear."
WRONG! Ever hear of artificial insemination?
Yes, but don't forget what the bible says about artificial insemination and birth defects ....... "If you spare the rod, you spoil the child."
Baaaawawaaahahahaahaha
excellent my friend....best one all month.....
It seems most of the crazies in these weird cases are all some sort of religious nut.
I hope she is in a better place now.
She's dead and not coming back. That's hardly a better place.
Than being systematically raped by your husband and his buddies??
I'm not so sure.
agreed william, being snuffed out of existence and nothing thereafter sounds like an infinitely better place than being raped and drugged by a group full of religious nuts.
then again, i never would have found myself in that place to begin with...so there you go.
How soon are we going to get the "no true Scotsman" arguement that this isn't a "real" christian group? And how many of those people trying to make that excuse are quick to blame all muslims for any instance of terrorism anywhere in the world?
Since there are so many of these "not real Christian" groups around, committing crimes, we should have the FBI/DHS ferret out all the bad ones.
I would think the "Real Christians" would welcome this. As far as the inconvienience to the "Real Christians", why would you object if you have nothing to hide?
If any hint of what these guys were doing had become known to the leadership at IHOPU they would've been expelled and reported to the cops instantly. These guys killed one of their own people to keep anyone from finding out what they were doing. It's pretty tough to do anything about them when they're willing to go that far to hide their activities.
As far as the different IHOP ministries, they are a really kind and generous bunch of people focused on prayer and worship. They wouldn't hurt a flea.
I'm sure -- just like the Catholic Church ran to the cops immediately when they discovered pedophile priests ... oh, wait, no.
I know some Christians. Some of them are my best friends. I wouldn't trust any group of Christians, they are all infiltrated, every group of them larger then a family, and many families too. Let me clear it up for you.....the Muslim Brotherhood isn't a terror group anymore, they just finance the terror groups while preaching tolerance. Most organized religions work the same way.
Steve it's kind of like this statement.
"It wasn't until Moore confessed nearly two weeks later that police announced she had been killed."
I guess the police was as bedazzled as leadership at IHOPU too.
Yeah, everyone thought she committed suicide. Without the confession it would probably still be a big unknown.
As far as the different IHOP servers, they are a really kind and generous bunch of people focused on pancakes and coffee. They wouldn't spill your tea.
I'll spend my Sundays with the servers, not the perverts.
sing it...."give me that ol time religion, give that ol time religion , give me that ol time religion"...........jonestown 78
Your Hilarious!
.....but the story is just sick! Cane those bastards until there's nothing left but jerky!
Cain them if you're Abel.
" God said to Abraham, ' Kill me a son. ' Abe says, " God you must be puttin' me on. "---Bob Dylan
Sometimes you really hope the Mayans are right and that everything just gets a fresh start to see if it can be done better the next time.
not me....i plan on hitting the lottery tonight........ya heard of that 1 guy out of roughly 176 million...well ya just met him.......now bow before me oh lowly ones.........:)
Scooter, hope its not like that one song where the old dude wins the loto then dies the next day, or in this case the world comes to an end..........oh the irony...........But you'll have to wait till next jackpot. Cause this one's mine...........it was fore told in the stars...........if you believe in that sort of stuff.....:-)
no way punisher, i got out my calipers and was checkin the width of the stripes on a furry Caterpillar by the light of lasts nights full moon and they say different
OMG you guys kill me LOL..
And BTW I was told by my prayer leader that I have the winning ticket.. The voices of the angels in his head told him!
My prayer leader told me to tell you to share it with me 50/50. I have a skeptical nature, though, so I think you should play it safe and make it 75/25. (Praise sweet cheeses for reigning down on macaroni.)
Best laugh all day!!!! Thanks y'all!!!
My newest favorite thing I've heard!
Live by the crazy ass religion, die by the crazy ass religion. No sympathy here. Religious fundamentalists of ANY type are a danger to themselves and others. Mostly others. Religion is merely a hold over from our primitive past and a sign, unfortunately, that we have not finished evolving. Pity.
whoa.....hey there doc.. leave us girl watchers out of it....you KNOW after all your one of us...fess up and admit it boy...as gramps was prone to say...
Lol! My husband is an ass man. I didn't know he was practicing his crazy ass religion all this time...he told me those Ridgid calendars in his shop were just more accurate...
My husband is an ass man.
My husband is an ass, man. (Just kidding, Big Guy!)
Note to self: for a happy marriage, hold the comma once in a while...
You can't judge all Christians by the actions of a few who CLAIM to be Christians any more than you can judge any other group based on the actions of a few. The vast majority of Christians are good, hardworking honest, law-abiding citizens, just like most blacks, Jews, Mexicans, gays, republicans, democrats, or whatever.
All blacks aren't drug dealers and thugs, all hispanics arent illegal and all muslims arent terrorists. But you can't convince some of the good people on newsvine of otherwise. Funny part is they will try and argue you down if you call them racists.
Well, here's that "No True Scotsman" argument that one of the other posters was expecting. Right on cue.
It's what you do that matters, not whose Name you do it in.
Well, can you deny that what Joe S said is true. Or do you think that "The vast majority of Christians are not good, hardworking honest, law-abiding citizens, just like most blacks, Jews, Mexicans, gays, republicans, democrats, or whatever."
Like people demanding that Muslims denounce Muslim terrorists, and then claiming that the denunciations aren't true because acts of terror still happen.
Sure you can Joe! Christianity is a choice, and any Christian who really reads the Bible as God's word has made choices that fly in the face of sanity and common morality.
All Christians are delusional and any religion that advocates slavery is out of step with morality.
The fact that the majority of Christians would say that Christianity is a good thing, without even knowing the details of the religion they subscribe to, and indoctrinate their children in, are not the qualities of "good people." All "good Christians" do is provide cover for the "bad Christians". If that murderer confesses his sin, he still goes to heaven, right.
In the thousands of years we've had civilization, most cultures and religions worldwide practiced slavery. Slavery has only been unacceptable in America for the last 150 years; some Latin American and Middle Eastern countries discontinued it sooner than that, while in remote parts of Africa it's still practiced today.
So my question is, in all that time that slavery was still an acceptable practice, God, and ALL the people who supported it during those thousands of years were BAD people according to your logic?
Slavery was a normal part of life when the Bible was written, what God commanded was directed in a way that the society of the time could relate to and react accordingly to the example of a good lifestyle that God demanded out of mortals. One forgets that during ancient times slaves were treated as personal servants, were more often than not trusted and treated well by their masters, was often a temporary, rather than lifetime servitude, and at times they married into the families they loyally served. THAT is what God was OK with, the master-servant relationship of that day, as understood by the people at that time. The modern stereotype (and reality) of slavery only started with the African slave trade in the 1400's, when it did indeed become an evil institution that needed to be ended.
You don't often see slavery apologists....generally they are all xians trying to justify the unmitigated evil in their own bible with a lot of stories about how "nice" slavery used to be.
Sorry, but no sale. OWNING another human being has never been right or good. Any person or "god" that would condone it is not right or good.
Servants are paid, have time off, and can leave if they wish...slaves weren't servants. Depriving anyone of their freedom to self-determination, just so that you can exploit them for their labor, is always, without exception, WRONG.
IHOPU.....?
IHOP -"U" ?????
ya mean to tell me IHOP has a university?....come on now just how hard is it to learn how to make pancakes?...
IA.ScooterTramp..do you not have a job or some place that you should be..like a place for the mentally challenged..
Most lucid post on this topic yet.
I was making a cross this morning and noticed that some of the wood grains made this pattern that looks just like a pancake!
wow learnt put it on e bay and you will get rich.....lucky guy.....
Scooter, the bible group must have taken IHOP-U litterally. No wonder all this crazy chit happened. IHOPU, UHOPME......It all gets around, then you have pancakes in the morning. What a life at IHOPU
Learnt Hick - I'm sitting here in front of my computer laughing my ass off over that one! Glad I got dressed today or I'd be embarrassed LOL
Glad I could help! lol
IHOPU
kinda sonuds like a porno film........
LOL! Where you from, boy? Iowa?
Yessir Custom, the "balmy temperature state"....got all the way to 18 degrees last night..up from 10 the night before, they was even talkin that filthy four letter word here....i speak of the "S" word of course. I swear just ONE damn fool says... "isn't it beautiful"... this year I'm going to lose it.
Know what you mean, Tramp. It was 14 this AM (central NH) when I got up for work...none of the white stuff yet, 'cept for a couple of flurries, but I know it's coming. Last time I was in your neck of the woods, I was living in MO, and bought an old Yammerhammer from a guy in Iowa, and decided to ride it home...this was at the end of Feb.. Nice day when I went up, but on the way home, it clabbered up and started snowing...by the time I got back to Moberly, there were 8" on the ground, and I was so cold I had to sit to pee. We're expecting a warm front in the next day or so...might get up to 30. Woo Hoo!
God has commanded us not to murder. Thou shalt not murder. Anyone urging you to murder is against God.
There, did that clear things up for you craphead?
Both Allah and Mohammad beg to differ..........
Allah is the name Muslims call "God", the same God that Christians pray to. You might want to try and do a little research before you type a comment.
Joe:
THANK YOU!
People miss that. The Church even acknowledged that in a Papal Bull issued back in 1965 by pope Paul VI (called the Nostra aetate):
3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.
Duke of Windsor:
Yes, God has commanded you to murder..but only those He tells you you can kill:
“In case you draw near to a city to fight against it, you must also announce to it terms of peace. And it must occur that if it gives a peaceful answer to you and it has opened up to you, it must even occur that all the people found in it should become yours for forced labor and they must serve you. But if it does not make peace with you, and it actually makes war with you and you have to besiege it, Jehovah your God also will certainly give it into your hand, and you must strike every male within it with the edge of a sword. Only the women and the little children and the domestic animals and everything that happens to be within the city, all its spoil you will plunder for yourself, and you must eat all the spoil of your enemies whom Jehovah your God has given to you. Deuteronomy 19: 10-14
And Jehovah your God will indeed abandon them to you and rout them with a great rout, until they are annihilated. And he will certainly give their kings unto your hand, and you must destroy their names from under the heavens. Nobody will take a firm stand against you, until you have exterminated them. The graven images of their Gods you should burn in the fire; you must not desire the silver and gold upon them, nor indeed taker it for yourself, for fear you shall be ensnared by it; for it is a thing detestable to Jehovah your God. Deuteronomy 7: 23-25
When Jehovah your God at last brings you into the land to which you are going so as to take possession of it, he must also clear away populous nations from before you, the Hittites, and the Girga@!$%#es and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations more populous and mighty than you, And Jehovah your God will certainly abandon them to you and you must defeat them. You should without fail devote them to destruction. You must conclude no covenant with them nor show them any favor. Deuteronomy 7: 1-3
And they went waging war against Midian, just as Jehovah had commanded Moses, and they proceeded to kill every male. And they killed the kings of Midian along with the others slain, namely, Evi and Rekem and Zur and Hur and Reba, the five kings of Midian; and they killed Balaam the son of Beor with the sword. But the sons of Israel carried off the women of Midian and their little ones captive; and all their dometic animals and all their livestock and all their means of maintenance they plundered. And all their cities in which they had settled and all their walled camps they burned with fire. And they went taking all the spoil and all the booty in the way of humans and domestic animals. And they came bringing to Moses and Eleazar the priest and to the assembly of the sons of Israel the captives and the booty and the spoil to the camp, to the desert plains of Moab, which are by the Jordan at Jericho.Numbers 31: 7-12
Then Moses and Eleazar the priest and all the chieftains of the assembly went out to meet them outside the camp. And Moses grew indignant at the appointed men of the combat forces, the chiefs of the thousands and the chiefs of the hundreds who were coming in from their military expedition. So Moses said to them, “Have you preserved alive every female? Look! They are the ones who, by Balaam’s word, served to induce the sons of Israel to commit unfaithfulness toward Jehovah over the affair of Peor, so that the scourge came upon the assembly of Jehovah. And now kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has had intercourse with man by lying with a male. And preserve alive for yourselves all the little ones among the women who have not known the act of lying with a male.” Numbers 31: 13-17
Of course unless its God calling you to murder. Read your Bible. God calls people to murder all the time. Its in the Bible. Who are you to say that the "real god" didn't justify this "honor killing"?
You can't. All you can do is go to the Bible. Where God calls for murder, torture, slaughter of innocents by the tens of thousands, incest, slavery...you name it, if its evil, YOUR GOD, called his followers to do it. And its all in the Bible, waiting for you to try to explain it away....
Go ahead, we'll wait.
ok ...so lets see...the Taliban gets their orders from whom? oh yes Mohamed and his book , who gets his info from allah. ...sorry i forgot where i was...spin city....
as Mark twain once said.." thank you for the book i shall waste no time in reading it".....
Amanda -
There is also a Papal Bull dating back to the 1600s that says that Native Americans are nothing but savage animals... that they are not of the human species and as such, deserve to be eliminated and their holdings and belongings taken from them and given to men who follow God.
The catholic church has been asked to refute and nullify that Bull and refuses to do so.
So they can take any Bull they possess and shove it..... after all the little boys and girls are safely out of the room, of course.
Duke of Windsor
God has commanded us not to murder
May want to check the history books again ducky. If it's too much reading, can always tune in to the History channel. More people have been killed in the name of gawd than for any other reason except maybe diseases.
Ecclesiastes 3:3 says differently, Duke. You may want to read that bible that you have built your faith on.
Thou shalt not kill. Look it up. Americans made it "thou shalt not murder" because (well I can only guess why) I think they like killing. You tell me. Why did they change it?
For over 5000 years it was "thou shalt not kill." Still is in the King James version of the bible.
Suddenly it's "thou shalt not murder." Very convenient, huh?
Not all killing is murder. War is a "for instance". Yes, the old testament story of wrestling the "promised land" from the original occupants was bloody. There had been attacks from this area for years on those around, and this time the attack came from former victims. Boo Hoo.
Another story that doesn't look too good is the book of Job. "yeah, I killed your 10 children, but here's 10 more to make up for it." Wouldn't satisfy me. There are almost no religions that don't have violence and heinous deeds in their history. God is great, religion...not so much. This story is a classic. You blow off finding a relationship with God, and start following a human. Pretty soon you are a whipped cult member.
Don't get me wrong, I recognize religion is a situation where morons can flourish. Look at Islam. But denial of God isn't logical either, since literally billions believe in some deity. God may need to review who claims to speak for Him, and make sure they are speaking accurately. Instead of accomplishing their own purposes using religion as a whip.
Just because billions of people believe in something, does not make it so. Withholding judgement I could agree with, but saying I should believe because others do.... No, quit kidding yourself.
I believe the Papal Bull you're talking about is the Romanus Pontifex of January 1455 (if this is the wrong one please let me know):
...since we had formerly by other letters of ours granted among other things free and ample faculty to the aforesaid King Alfonso -- to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery, and to apply and appropriate to himself and his successors the kingdoms, dukedoms, counties, principalities, dominions, possessions, and goods, and to convert them to his and their use and profit -- by having secured the said faculty, the said King Alfonso, or, by his authority, the aforesaid infante, justly and lawfully has acquired and possessed, and doth possess, these islands, lands, harbors, and seas, and they do of right belong and pertain to the said King Alfonso and his successors, nor without special license from King Alfonso and his successors themselves has any other even of the faithful of Christ been entitled hitherto, nor is he by any means now entitled lawfully to meddle therewith.
There was a Papal Bull issued in June 1537 by Pope Paul III called the Sublimus Deus:
The enemy of the human race, who opposes all good deeds in order to bring men to destruction, beholding and envying this, invented a means never before heard of, by which he might hinder the preaching of God's word of Salvation to the people: he inspired his satellites who, to please him, have not hesitated to publish abroad that the Indians of the West and the South, and other people of whom We have recent knowledge should be treated as dumb brutes created for our service, pretending that they are incapable of receiving the Catholic Faith. We, who, though unworthy, exercise on earth the power of our Lord and seek with all our might to bring those sheep of His flock who are outside into the fold committed to our charge, consider, however, that the Indians are truly men and that they are not only capable of understanding the Catholic Faith but, according to our information, they desire exceedingly to receive it. Desiring to provide ample remedy for these evils, We define and declare by these Our letters, or by any translation thereof signed by any notary public and sealed with the seal of any ecclesiastical dignitary, to which the same credit shall be given as to the originals, that, notwithstanding whatever may have been or may be said to the contrary, the said Indians and all other people who may later be discovered by Christians, are by no means to be deprived of their liberty or the possession of their property, even though they be outside the faith of Jesus Christ; and that they may and should, freely and legitimately, enjoy their liberty and the possession of their property; nor should they be in any way enslaved; should the contrary happen, it shall be null and have no effect.
There was a sister document to this called the Pastorale Officium that outlined penalties like excommunication for those who enslaved Indians. However, because it mentioned King Charles V by name, it came under scrutiny by said King and he complained against it, after which the Pastorale was rescinded. However, so far as I have been able to discover, the Sublimus Dei has never been revoked.
Not that it really matters to me one way or another, as I am no longer Christian. I was commending Joe for his acknowledgement that the God of the Qu'ran and the God of the Bible were the same entity, and pointing out that the Catholic church's official stance agrees with him.
Absolutely!
It's not exclusive to Islam. Look at the Westboro Baptist folks. Look at Anders Breivik, the Norway shooter. Look at Harold Camping's predictions that the world was going to come to an end. Look at the Buddhist monks in Burma killing and setting fire to Muslims' homes and businesses, refusing to sell them food or do business with them.
There are extremists and fanatics in every belief system all across the globe all through time. All one has to do is look at history itself to see that it's what an individual or a group of individuals does that's the issue, not whose Name they do it in.
What they call their God--or whether, indeed, they believe in one at all--is irrelevant.
wow amada
and to think i was going to invite ya out for cocktails, gratuitous sex and downright drunken heathen debauchery tonight... but somehow i get a strange feeling you probably wouldn't come.....
IA Scooter Tramp:
Thanks for the thought but sorry, have to work tomorrow!!!
And I'm married and have two kids. Gratuitous sex with hubby only, per my vows to the Goddess. But yeah, I do have a drink now and then.
I'll be celebrating Yule with the rest of the coven skyclad, however, and I will toss one back for you though!!!
Cheers!!!
LMAO :D
Yes, the God of Abraham, God of the Desert, is considered to be identical in Judaism, Christianity and Islam, to academia and the theologians.
fgh:
And to the Bahai as well. I have a friend who is Bahai, and according to her belief system, all religions come from God, and each time a great prophet has come to Earth (Abraham, Jesus, Zoroaster, Muhammed, and their Prophet Baha'u'allah [I think I spelled that wrong]) that prophet has brought another 'chapter' of God's word with them. So in their eyes, we're all connected. They believe faith is a personal matter, and they don't have centralized religious leaders like a priest, or pope. The group of followers elects a prayer meeting leader by popular vote and that is subject to change.
Yesterday, I read one story about a guy who killed two intruders in his home. He went over the top and shot them multiple times in the head. Read another story about a guy who shot at a car full of teenagers killing one because he was "scared for this life" after he asked them to turn down their music. The world's going nuts and it has nothing to due with religion.
Hmmmm. . . . if this had been an Islamic clergyman, Evangelicals and the rightwing media would be all over it like a cheap suit as exhibit A against Islam.
Maybe, instead, we should put all such events in perspective as Exhibit A against extremism when someone becomes so convinced that he speaks for God that whatever pops into his head is God's will.
Just a thought.
your right BY GOD they would have ... good thing they didnt do that here and therefor we dont know about it....
They refuse to see these things; just as they refuse to see that parts of their "holy book" are evil, and have been proven to be false.
Sorry Bobby, this one does have to do with religion as they are involved in the vast majority of the worlds deaths. Thse kooks did this for sex and Jesus. This is how twisted organized religion can become.
ya mean to tell me IHOP has a university?....come on now just how hard is it to learn how to make pancakes?...
Maybe they're teaching their students how to cook pancakes with the image of Christ or the Virgin Mary.
I'm pretty sure Pareidolia 101 is a requirement for graduation. ;)
As far as what is a real Christian, the Bible says know them by their works. Love=real, hate=false, according to the Bible. Since Christians are supposed to follow the Bible that's probably a good place to look for the authoritative definition of what one is.
The great thing about Christianity is even though anyone can call themselves one and people can do whatever they want and blame it on whatever they want, nevertheless anyone who actually tries to follow what Jesus taught in the Bible will act in ways that are good, or worst case, harmless.
People claim a lot of things in the name of religion. Christianity has this going for it: the foundational writings of Christianity and the founder of Christianity, Jesus, calls people hypocrites who do evil and claim to be Christians.
Should they have just stoned her to death as the bible suggests? You can pick and choose the good parts of the bible, but the majority of the old testament is brutal and evil!
Soon enough we'll have the REAL story as to why she was killed: she insisted on purchasing/wearing poly-cotton blends...
Steveo - Christians are supposed to follow the teaching of Jesus. You are right that the law brings condemnation and death. However Jesus died in our place to save us from that. This is very basic Christian teaching from the Bible. Christians are not "picking and choosing" - it is perfectly self-consistent. The key to what has changed is the death and resurrection of Jesus and the call to follow His example.
In John chapter 8 the hypocrites brought a woman caught in adultery to Jesus and demanded for Him to have her stoned. He shamed them for their hypocrisy until they all left. Then He said to her:
"Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
"No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." - John 8:10-11 (NIV)
So no, Jesus did not condemn and He commanded His followers not to condemn either. Even the name "Christian" means Christ-follower. Real Christians are supposed to do what He said and follow His example.
Evangelism is not harmeless, ever. Jesus taught evangelism. Christianity is not harmless. In Christianity's war on Reason and Sanity millions of lives have been lost, billions of dollars wasted, entire countries reduced to serfdom, ect. ect. ad nauseum.
Harmless....I would hate to hear what your idea of harm is
Arsenic - I used to be an atheist too. Until i encountered God in a way I can't deny. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It's easy to be confident about things that you don't actually know about when you've already made up your mind in the absence of evidence.
But now that I know Him I've realized it's no longer a question of is He real. It's just a question of what I'm going to do about it.
OK Steve - fine. You are right, you can't prove that no god exists anywhere. And humans, being the pattern-recognizing monkeys that we are, will see god in everything, once we convince ourselves that there must be one.
However, its usually a trivial matter to prove to a reasonable standard that an individual human's vision of God not only doesn't exist, but can't exist.
All you have to do is answer these two questions - directly.
1. What does your God do?
2. How do you know that?
Go for it! Provide lots of detail! In fairness, it's the details that will hang you up. But since your so SURE, details shouldn't be a problem.
1. What does your God do?
2. How do you know that?
1. My Dog poops in the yard.
2. I've seen it.
DYSLEXICS of the world....UNTIE!!!
Yer my man Hick. Jungian psych? Retired?
Arsenic - First I should say I'm not saying this to persuade you because why should you believe a random anonymous guy on the internet who you think is a whack job in the first place. But you did ask so here goes:
The list is pretty endless. First of all the day I got saved I instantly became a different person. As a pretty introspective person, that was fascinating. Just looking inward and trying to process how different I was after just one thing that I said to God in that moment of encounter: "OK". It seems like He took me seriously when I said that.
Second all of a sudden the Bible made sense to me. That was also a fascinating experience because I had read the Bible before and found it to be contradictory and confusing. But in one moment all the things I thought were inconsistencies suddenly made sense. I read it cover to cover over the next couple of weeks and was just completely amazed that it seemed like I was reading a different book.
Third God started talking to me in an admittedly subjective "internal" voice but the cool thing is it was and continues to be proved real by objective confirming events in the real world.
Fourth is through my own personal instant healings, once when I broke my ankle playing basketball. Took about 2 minutes from the first prayer until it was normal, no more swelling, no more bad color, no more pain. Another time I had bone chips in my other ankle instantly healed through prayer where I couldn't walk on it before prayer and after prayer it has been perfectly normal ever since.
I'll stop there. There's lots more. He is involved in my life every day teaching me and growing me as a person into someone more like Jesus and less like the selfish introspective person I started out as.
Inactive....I work with developmentally delayed adults with challenging behaviors now, fewer headaches even when I get hit in the head. I still like to hear good dreams though!
Steve.....a good hypnotist can get the same results. I'm guessing there where no xrays on the broken ankle and the miracle cure.
Thirty years later my relationship with Jesus is still going strong and if anything His presence in my life now is even more profound than at the start. I'm guessing even a good hypnotist would have trouble producing those results.
And it wouldn't matter if I had x-rays because no amount of proof would be sufficient, you would just find some reason to discount it, since there are no circumstances in which you are prepared to consider the possibility that you might be wrong about this.
Which is really tragic. Because He is so real, more real than anything else we know about.
Steve.... do you realize what you've just tried to do?
I'll tell you what, let me hit you in the knee with a baseball bat a few times and then get the prayer circle going. If you can walk again in half an hour or less I'll consider it proof and convert. Of course, one should not test god in such a way, according to the bible, but as I don't follow those teachings I consider that a reasonable approach to your claims.
Let us know what your faith leads you to decide about that bat and we can post a youtube vid of the hitting, the xrays, the prayer and the walking. Think of all the faithless you could reach for just half an hour of pain and the cost of an xray.
gee hick so do i everyday.....on here......
not a snowballs chance in.....
gee hick so do i everyday.....on here......
LMAO
agreed after all....and i quote..
THERE IS NO DOG........unquote...
(---dyslexic atheist---)
Yeah Hick, that's where you live. My response to your "reasonable proposal" is the same as my x-ray response.
Did you hear about the dyslexic that died trying to eat a BUS? The LIVED is in the details. hehe
@steve, I want evidence and you demand faith. I think we both know where the other is coming from, but I never made claims of miracle cures as "proof" of the reality of god. Where as I could be convinced, you will take it on faith and then move on without thinking.
gee steve..
.since you two are on a first name basis and all, put in a word for me, and you might mention the word "powerball" while your at it....
and with that folks im outta here, looks like Friday came early this week, hope i brought a couple smiles today, ( yeah, yeah yeah Steve, "blasphemy" and all that....)... happy Wednesday folks... and good luck tonight.....( not that it will help, if you been paying attention you know whos winning......)
Steve:
All of it? Really? You have no need for apologism? Unerring word of God?
Are your sure it was faith in Jesus that healed your broken ankle? What evidence do you have that it wasn't your own psychobiokinetic powers? Did your Bible appear at the basketball court for you to pray with? Any witnesses?
It's your story, there has to be more detail than that.
Steve has been seeing the same hypnotist for years now. He just got the wrong message, God was trying to tell him not to play basketball. Understanding Gods' will is tricky business.
Have fun all I'm out for a while
Thanks for sharing, Steve! Voted you up.
Lisa
Religious whackjobs.
so you prefer the plain ol non religious whackjobs?
Where is this "plain?" I want to go there!
no problem Maxwell
here's a hint... they disguise em by calling them "big city's" ...there is probably one near by, they are all pretty much the same so just pick one.
Those who profess to be Christians should know their shepard's voice. If any voice tells you to kill, it is NOT the voice of the Lord but is the voice of Satan, the deceiver!
So, when George W. Bush heard "God" telling him to invade Iraq, it was actually Satan speaking? Got it...
Yes, you are correct.
fixate much talibabtist? want politics? go to first read...you will fit right in....
Do you realize how crazy you sound? I'm thinking it's the voice of Santa Claus or maybe the Easter Bunny...
I can't believe that others agree with you. Religion equals crazy person.
Tor:
I've always had a bit of a problem with those who call God their 'shepherd'...
Yes, shepherds take care of their flock, protect and defend it from predators and make sure they are cared for and healthy, but they do so so the shepherd can take their wool for his own clothes, kill the young for food, use their milk to fed his children, and eventually kill them for food.
Is this really the image Christians have of God? Or have you just used the analogy for so long that you don't think anymore about what it actually means?
TOR - that's just it, they can't tell one voice from the other, and I meant "they" in the broadest term possible. They call every idea of their own "God's voice".
Atheism equals crazy people... wow name calling is easy.
I heard a voice saying "smoke pot smoke pot everybody smoke pot" and was just about to twist one up when I realized it was just the Beatles stuck in my head again.
That, of course, made me want to twist one up!
Amanda-2017567,
I think you're reaching for something just to be contrary. This is what I mean by, 'shepherd.'
John 10:11-16
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
I understand that (was raised Catholic by devout Irish catholic parents) and never really thought about what a shepherd REALLY does until one fateful day.
I volunteer at a municipal inner-city animal shelter and one day we got in five sheep from a rowhouse in the city. The guy had apparently gone to PA, bought seven sheep, and kept them in the basement of his rowhome. He butchered them one by one (at the time our AEOs got there he'd butchered 2 of them) and had their skins draped over wooden sawhorses in the basement and decomposing carcasses in full view of the remaining five. The smell was actually what prompted the neighbors to call the police, who in turn called the AEOs out when they saw the animals.
I have never been able to look at the word 'shepherd' ever since without that image in my head.
(The local mounted police unit offered the use of their horse trailer since we didn't have anything large enough to transport five terrified sheep in, and the mounteds also helped round said sheep up--as soon as the basement door opened those sheep made a run for it--and they lived in the AEO vehicle garage for a week until the farm animal rescue people came to pick them up.)
But back to religion...I just have a problem with a lot of what the bible defines s the relationship between man and God. Like the shepherd/sheep thing,for instance, and the slave thing. Why would an all-powerful, omnipotent God need human slaves?
Amanda, the shepherd who is out with the sheep, watching over them, protecting them, directing them is the example the Lord was giving us. He is not the same as the milker, butcher, shearer, weaver, etc. The Lord always seemed to be specific in this instance.
Amanda,
Jesus spoke out against the rules of the Pharisees and Saducees. Jesus makes it clear that the 'traditions' of man's religion did NOT come from God
Matthew 15:2-3
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Jesus went on to decry the religious rules laid out by men further on down in Matthew 15:
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Concerning slaves. Would you rather be a slave to sin and the flesh of a slave to the things which are of God? Would you rather serve Jesus or Satan?
But in those days when there weren't all of these specialized trades, the one who owned the sheep as also the one who sheared them, milked them, selectively bred them, and eventually killed them.
I understand what it is INTENDED to portray, but the reality of being a shepherd back then was not the same, and I have a hard time equating the reality of it then to their calling people sheep and God a shepherd while knowing what the reality was.
But, different times, different ideas. I just don't like it--and the beauty of all of this is that I don't have to like it since this country is one that allows all belief system to be practiced equally and doesn't favor one over the other (on paper, that is--the reality is a bit different.)
Oh, and as I'm not Christian, I'll pick...serving neither.
And as a citizen of the US, I support your right to choose!