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1st Lt. Audrey Moton is seen at the Army's Sapper Leader Training course for combat engineers at Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri.
While the Pentagon brass and U.S. military leaders are struggling over how to bring women into ground combat training, two young female soldiers have already proven they've got what it takes to join their male counterparts on the battlefield.
1st Lt. Audrey Moton and 2nd Lt. Carley Turnnidge, both West Point graduates, took on the Army's Sapper Leader Training course for combat engineers at Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri. It's one of the toughest combat training courses in the entire U.S. military and the only course of its kind that accepts women. Since 1999, nearly 60 women have made the grade.
For more on women in combat, watch NBC Nightly News' two-part series. Part One airs on Saturday, Dec. 1.
Sapper training may be dirty, grueling and bordering on physical torture but petite women are proving their strength alongside their bigger, beefier soldiers. NBC's Jim Miklaszewski reports.
Moton at 5'6'', and Turnnidge, barely reaching 5'4'', faced 28 grueling days of physical torture with little sleep or food. But that was only half the challenge. Training alongside 36 larger, more muscular male soldiers, both instinctively felt that as women they had to prove they could hold their own. They did.
Turnnidge, a high school and West Point soccer star, went above and beyond the call. After failing in tactical operations in her first try, remarkably, she took the course twice -- 56 straight days without a break. In a training swim, Turnnidge had to drag her exhausted male partner back across the lake. Moton vigorously trained to get in shape before she ever got to the course and believes she and Turnnidge actually motivated the men. "They'd think, 'Wait, I don't wanna get beat by a girl.' Well, then run faster," she said. "I'm not going to stop."
While women are permitted to fly fighter jets and attack helicopters in combat missions, Pentagon policy prohibits female soldiers and Marines from serving in direct ground combat roles. In the past 11 years of guerrilla-style combat in Iraq and Afghanistan, those battle lines were essentially erased. More than 130 female service members were killed and 800 wounded. This week the American Civil Liberties Union filed a federal lawsuit to lift the ban on women in combat.
Both Moton and Turnnidge passed the course and earned the coveted title "SAPPER." While it will likely open doors for future promotions and positions of leadership, they have no illusions they'll ever see ground combat themselves, but believe they're helping pave the way for other female soldiers in the future. "It sets me apart from my peers," Turnnidge said, "and over time more women will be able to prove themselves."
Moton is convinced with proper training and personal commitment, women will inevitably see duty in ground combat. "Down the road, we'll see many more women doing this. We're gettin' there."
Major Mary Jennings Hegar is among a group that is suing the U.S. military over a ban on women serving in combat. Hegar explains the lawsuit to MSNBC's Alex Witt.
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Way to go ladies, in the times to come we will read your names with General in front of it.
This will definitely improve their chances for promotion to a General Officer, but will also put a big "Bullseye" on their back navigating through the command structure.
It should be voluntary for those "" who wish to be more manlike" and play war-games with the boys and then IF they can qualify just as it is for the real soldiers (men). I don't won't my granddaughters forced into combat because of some dyke's preference for equality on the battlefield. Or to satisfy some liberal politicians sense of equality, especially when they have never served.
The term "sapper" was first attributed to stealthy viet cong who were trained to infiltrate U S bases and blow up key targets. When did we start referring to U S combat soldiers as sappers?
nico...You have watched too many war movies. The Sapper is a combat engineer who specializes in sapping or digging a trench "excavated under defensive musket or artillery fire that was intended to advance a besieging army's position in relation to the works of an attacked fortification was referred to as a sap". They are also involved in building other field fortification . A Sapper also lays, detects, and disarms mines. You will notice the definition above says "Musket", so that should tell you that Sappers have been around for a LONG time. Their history goes back as far as the 7th century and every army has them in their organizations. There is a difference between combat engineers and infantry and although they are both involved in combat, there is a difference.
still dont agree with women on the front lines BUT its good to know these guys are ready if ever needed.
I can't do it. I would brake my nails.
My question: What will/would you do if you are captured and become a P.O.W.? IMO, that fate is too terrible to contemplate.
If they pass muster and they want to do the job, they should be allowed to do it. There are women in the military who are in combat roles right now and few folks know that. My granddaughter is a "Combat Medic" in the US Army. She walks patrol like everyone else and gets shot at like everyone else. There have been two women "Combat Medics" who have distinguished themselves in action and have won a Legion of Merit and a Silver Star for their actions under fire.
Joel, your granddaughter is also being passed around like a plastic sex toy. All women who wear the uniform are complete whores. Her vagina is a punching bag for co ck.
Wrath, You obviously have no respect for women at all- I have a grandaughter in the Army at the moment- she just went through Jump School and is applying for Ranger School- not sure if they allow women into Ranger School (when I went they didn't but that was in 1964 so it may have changed)- I trained her to track, survive in the wilderness, take game with a bow, and trap and also to defend herself against bozos like you. She is a hell of a lot more woman than you are a man. I would like to set up a meeting - just for the joy of seeing her kick your cowardly ass.
Don't care! I'm with you Joel.
Male vs. female / gay vs. straight / trans / pigment / anyone should have the privledge of serving in any role as long as the minimum standard (no matter how high) is met.
I salute ANYONE that is willing to put their life on the line for their country (including EMS, firefighters, LEOs).
You hit the nail on the head ! MINIMUM STANDARD... that is what these women are, the minimum standard.
I am not so concern about women in combat, but for the boneheaded macho men around them. I am pretty certain that in the heat of combat that a man, seeing his fellow female soldier wounded or killed, could possibly have their most base sense of chivilry and protective nature overwelm him and put himself, the mission, and the rest of his platoon at risk in order to rush to her aid. And I am not so sure that repeated exposure to female co-combatants or education would ever guarantee that this would not happen.
Real life and death combat is NOT like in the movies. The enemy is NOT going to pause battle to allow a man to rush to a dieing woman's side to comfort her last moments, as the violin music swells. No, the enemy has just killed the grieving male and is now attacking the now empty flank position he abandoned.
And I am sure some will claim that this could happen between male members, though knowing something about gender dynamics, I doubt it would occur very often, if at all. Well, unless there are gays in the platoon, then my supposition becomes weak and less certain.
After saying all this, I am also well aware that women can be just as ruthless, quick, supportive, and battle worthy as men, maybe in some ways, more so. I am very confident that a platoon made up of only women could kick some serious but, win some major exchanges, and gain accolades / awards. And maybe this could be the reason that some males would object to female fellow combatants, since no man want to be beat out by "a bunch of girls".
"I am pretty certain that in the heat of combat that a man, seeing his fellow female soldier wounded or killed, could possibly have their most base sense of chivilry and protective nature overwelm him and put himself, the mission, and the rest of his platoon at risk in order to rush to her aid."
Well said!
Sappers are a JOKE. The SAPPER Tab is the "Special Olympics" of tabs. These guys will no doubt defend her... because they want to keep bangin her like a plastic sex toy back on the FOB ;)
Military chicks are whores...
This is not a brand new thing that women are in it and they are not the only one to graduate. There are actually quite a few females who have graduated... When they first introduced women to the course they failed.... This sounds bad, but the standards have dropped for the course.
So.....should women register for the draft? Should they be exempt if they have children? Should anyone be exempt? What if a woman is drafted but her husband is not? Is that ok?
1st - The "Sapper" course is a joke. To call it elite, is a HUGE mistake.
2nd - Women are not equal to men in the military. They do less physically than men. Just look at the PT standard. If women were equal to men, they'd have a pen is.
3rd - The military is a joke. They suck at fighting. Why? Because their General Officer corps is too busy bangin, YEP, you guessed it... whore military women. Thank you Gen Betrayus.
4th - Combat Engineers have been whining for years for some "special" recognition. Well, enter the "Sapper" tab. JOKE. Sappers have no mission, but to continue to suck at small unit tactics.
5th - Combat Action Badge. The biggest JOKE of all awards. Idiots are getting these for sitting on a FOB, when the base is shot at. The CAB is the "Special Olympics" of combat awards.
6th - The U.S. Military is void of any Presidential wartime leadership... has been like that since WWII ended. The U.S. Miltary is no longer good enough for your children.
If a woman can pass the same "physical" standards as a male then I say fine. I see the military lowering the standard for females. When some women can't handle the stress then they get put in a leadership position or support position. I see Congress trying to make things equal in an unequal world. Females in the NFL? Females in the NBA? Females in NHL??? Lets be real folks, the military is a professional organization just like the NFL but in the military the results are very final.
I would love to see a female in the NFL! Lets see what happens to her when she hit by a man who weighs almost 300 pounds and is fast. I see the most likely scenario as a female kicker, and we all know what happens to kickers in the NFL. I can't wait to see this.
Crazier and crazier. One thing is sure: if we can just keep warfare virtual only, or limited to furious exchanges of words, the girls will do just fine. As for me, I'm damned glad I'm now in my dotage, and will never have to face enemies on the battlefiel with women (supposedly) "fighting "alongside me. Has, incidentally (and at a time when we're completely bankrupt), anyone ever stopped to think what trying to make and maintain a woman trying to be a soldier? How many special environments, gadgets, weapons, and all the logistical rest can we afford?
"Insanity," said Nietzsche, "is relatively rare among individuals, but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs it is the rule." Nothing could better demonstrate that than stories like this. Fortumately, we may go broke - stop being able to pay for all this - before we die as a nation. God, folks, get a grip!
Celtic. Do you realize that males may also be raped if captured? Bulk means nothing and actually a bulky soldier is not a good type of soldier. The best soldiers ever are Gurkas and most weigh in at about 130 lbs. and not 180 like Americans. You want someone who takes little food to function, who can carry more in ratio to his or her weight and who can run forever. American soldiers today are way too heavy and it takes too much food to get them going. I also question the physical exertion on a heavy body. Take a look at soldiers in WWII and Vietnam they look like they were starving. Never should a soldier weigh over about 160 lbs. Women have always fought in wars and on the front lines. Mongol women fought and were excellent archers. However, if they are going to be on the front lines then they have to pass the exact same tests as men. You either pass or you do not. Looks to me like these women have what it takes. I remember years ago in the PI that the leader of a group of Malay pirates was a Chinese woman who would dare anyone to fight her, open fist fighting or swords. Never lost. Isreal appears to not have much trouble having fighters that are women.
Harry...I don't know where you have got your information, but male POW's in Afghanistan don't get raped, they get their heads cut off. Are you a former soldier? If not you should stop posting with your ridiculous comments. How would you know if a "bulky" soldier doesn't make or isn't a good type of soldier? And if you are a former soldier, I can understand why you are a "former" soldier.
And why not!
army sapper school videos
with women competing
www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIb2x-QebLA
Israel put women into combat from the very beginning and found them quite competent. Perhaps it was only certain women who could match the males, but enough could do it to make it worthwhile. However, Israel pulled out their women combatants fairly soon after they began. It was found that an enemy (nearly always Muslim) would, if defeated, go ahead and surrender, to a male. But, if their adversary was a woman, the Muslims would fight to the death, rather than suffer the humiliation of being defeated by a woman, even if that meant taking one or more of Israelis and/or Muslims with them.
Women are NOT suited for ground combat because their size, speed, and physical strength alone have got to run oat least 30-40% lower than larger, more muscular men overall. I would not want to have my life jeopardized in any combat with enemy men because it is considered stylish to have women do an inferior job to a man despite their best efforts and intent. The well known phrase that "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" is quite apt here.
We're already circling the parking lot looking for a space.
I think that geneticaly men , or at least most men, are hard wired to defend and protect women. I wonder if in a combat situation would a man take chances he would not normally take to protect or rescue a female fellow combatant ? That sort of action may cost him his life.
Joncar --- Only if she was a "freind with benefits".
If these two female Lt's completed the course in a fair and square manner my hat is off to them. If their success was due to altered course standards then it's just more affirmative action PC BS. Hope they did it the "right" way.
It's about time. 16 years ago, I could run 12 miles, swim 6 miles, do 100 pushups, squat 300 pounds, bench 180 pounds, and hold my breath underwater for over 3 minutes. I walked into the recruitment office at 17 and told them I wanted to be a Navy Seal. The recruiter laughed at me and said girls can't fight in combat. I flicked him off, turned around and walked out. They called me for over 7 years after that asking me if I wanted to work intel, and I ignored every call. These women are paving the way for less and less discrimination. The army has been stupid to turn away willing and able-bodied warriors, regardless of gender.
I never made any real attempts at serious physical training, at 18 years of age I could bench 225, sled 800, (squats are dangerous), I can lift more now than ever, crush bones with my grip strength and I still make no real effort to strength train. I was approached by the marines to become a sniper, at the time I was shooting 1000 yard range competitions and I was insanely good at it, I declined. I honestly believe that women should be able to serve in combat but do you see the problem here? I made no effort and surpassed your abilities, the difference is I didn't feel a desire to kill. I understand how you are capable and to keep you out based solely on your gender is discrimination, but there is some basis in biology.
Great job ladies! We're proud of you!!
how can they keep up the same standards if they keep lowering the bar every time they want to include a new group of people? I have no problem allowing women into combat provided they meet the same physical fitness requirements as the men have been expected to meet. I don't want to seem insensitive, but if they keep making it easier to become part of an elite unit, pretty soon they'll have the mentally challenged, wheel chair bound, etc., filing lawsuits to be included in a sliding scale based program for green beret & navy SEAL training.
A split tail with PMS and an Automatic weapon,,,,,, May God have mercy onthe enemy
Semper Fi