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George Zimmerman's defense team on Monday posted this photo online, which was taken by a police officer on the night of Feb. 26, 2012.
The defense team for George Zimmerman on Monday posted a high-resolution color photo of the Florida neighborhood watch leader taken by police the night 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was fatally shot.
The Feb. 26 photo, which was previously released as a black-and-white photocopy, was provided as a high-resolution digital file to the defense on Oct. 29.
The shooting took place when Zimmerman encountered Martin, who was unarmed and walking through the Sanford, Fla., neighborhood where his father lives.
Earlier this year, Zimmerman, now 29, pleaded not guilty to a charge of second-degree murder in the shooting death of Martin. In the highly publicized case, which has drawn national attention, Zimmerman maintains that Martin attacked and beat him. In July, he was released from Seminole County Jail after posting $1 million bond. Zimmerman remains out on bail and is in seclusion.
Martin's family has called for a change in Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law, which allows the use of force in self-defense, when there is a reasonable belief of an unlawful threat.
Zimmerman's lawyers posted the following statement about the photo:
"This is a photo of George Zimmerman taken by a police officer on the night of February 26, 2012. A black and white photocopy of this image was provided by the State in the first Discovery. This high-resolution digital file was finally provided to the defense on October 29, 2012. This image was disclosed in the State's 9th Supplemental Discovery. In accordance with the updates to our media policy that we published on November 13, we will be making all public documents related to the case available on our website, including the rest of the State's 9th Supplemental Discovery as soon as we are sure it has been properly redacted according the the Court's stipulations on protecting information regarding specific witnesses."
A spokesperson for the office of Special Prosecutor Angela Corey did not immediately respond to an email request for comment Monday.
Benjamin Crump, an attorney for the Martin family, told NBC News the photo is not new evidence –- just a color version of a photograph that has already been seen.
“George Zimmerman profiled and pursued Trayvon,” Crump said. “Trayvon had every right to stand his ground.”
In a video clip from Feb. 27, 2012, released by his attorney, George Zimmerman takes investigators back to the scene of his shooting of Trayvon Martin. (George Zimmerman featured at 2:15)
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Click> "No DNA results foreign to Trayvon Benjamin Martin"
Click> Zimmerman's Gravity --
All the blood on George's head ran down which indicates he could not have been on the bottom with Trayvon on top. If George had been on the bottom the blood would have been smudged and smeared and not in the trickle lines seen in this video.
Oh, its on the internet...it must be true.
By the way, if a comment is collapsed.....you can click on the words "collapsed by community" and still read the comment.
RW--just let each person decide if it makes sense.
Click> the Kangaroo Court is at it again.
Waiting for comments from the White House on the recent photo posting within this article.
case over;if these pictures are allowed into evidence ,As TAKEN SOON AFTER THE FIGHT, THE STATE WILL NOT GET PAST A DIRECTED VERDICT OF SELF-DEFENSE; AND THEY KNOW IT.
Gravity, effects things that are in the process. My only advice is, punch yourself a few times, until your face is bloody and then time the action that fits into the time frame between the engagement and the time police got there, relate to how fast the blood flows to not just gravity. but air moisture, normal human behavior not aware they are bloody and feeling wetness on their own faces...etc...stop continuing to grasp at straws to force the legal system to attack a man that is guilty of manslaughter and not a cold blooded murder, unlike the gang members that have murdered 2000+ men, women and children in Chicago since Trayvon was killed.
I had a bloody nose the other day and I didn't get in a fight. This photo means nothing whatsoever.
his nose is swollen and busted.. when your nose is busted it doesn't stop bleeding as soon as he sat up...you people are nuts...and how would DNA be on trayvon he was on top and his hands were scratched and scrapped on the knuckles.. from punching from top.. I read the corners report and if this wasnt such a racial issue it wouldn't even go to trial...
Well, those don't appear to be "life threatening" wounds on Zimmerman, so killing the kid seems to be quite an excessive response.
Are we supposed to believe that it's ok to kill children if they tag a guy with a lucky punch? I mean the kid wasn't trained in Judo or Karate, so, yeah, a lucky punch.
Olivier Martinez did more damage to Gabriel Aubry than Treyvon did to Zimmerman.
Click> Zimmerman's Gravity -(-All the blood on George's head ran down which indicates he could not have been on the bottom...)
As someone who has treated victims in the emergency medical field, if you are laying down when punched and your nose is bleeding, the blood will go backwards down into your sinus cavities and into your throat, not upwards and outwards, down your chin. Try laying down on the floor. Your nostrils are higher then the very top of the bridge of your nose by your eyes.Also notice the smeared blood going down the side.Coagulated blood is often spit out from the mouth as well from a broken nose.
One doesn't know how far another is capable of going in a fight.When adrenolin kicks in, the brain stops thinking rationally and goes into survival mode, the fight or flights so commonly heard. And mistakes are made in judgment. Sometimes poorly in hindsight which is the case here I believe. A series of poor ones perhaps before.
"No DNA results foreign to Trayvon Benjamin Martin"
Well there you go, case closed, no trail needed. After a punch in the nose, you can fire away!! I could have killed several people growing up, using these guide lines, after I got punched in the nose.
HAHA typical even when photos show someone who had every reason to defend himself you will just keep grasping. "Oh doesnt look life threating to me". "Oh look at the blood trail its all down".
He isnt guilty of manslaughter either. It's self-defense get over yourselves people.
"American Girl-724855" umm Travyon was into MMA and probably studied it at least. He was taller, stronger, faster, etc but yet someone is supposed to let someone pound on them versus shoot them. Give me a break this guy will never get a fair trial as people like you will argue that he shouldn't have done this. Well how about the kid should have just gone home and not attacked someone with a gun?
We go from "He wasnt even hurt and people like Nancy Grace saying he must be a killer or something like that because he has no injuries to "Well ok he has them but I DONT THINK they are good enough". Well guess what they dont have to be what you think. Its' what he thought and I would probably feel the same way and SO WOULD YOU if some big guy was on top of you and trying to smash your skull in. Anyone who says otherwise IMO is lying his arse off.
Trayvon tried to pull a 'gangsta' move and got exactly what he had coming....
After looking at the photo all I can say that is what happens to stalkers who follow and confront people in the middle of the night. Sorry, you can't go from perp to victim just because your victim defended himself. You don't get to kill your victim just because he defends him or herself.
Zimmerman is truly a heroic figure. He followed Martin against instructions provided by law enforcement, started an altercation, then "stood his ground" by killing an unarmed juvenile.
I cannot understand why Zimmerman has become such a cause with the gun advocates of this country. What he did was a cowardly act by an out of control bully and those of you who defend gun rights have chosen the wrong hero. You only expose your cause as unworthy.
Stand your ground is a license to kill and, in any case, was intended primarily for protection of one's home. To extend the stand your ground justification for this murder to a neighborhood situation in which Zimmerman was the obvious aggressor is absurd.
Stephan/Don,
Exactly. You don't get to ignore the 911 operator telling you to go back to your car, pick a fight, and than shoot an UNARMED kid. Punching someone who you feel is attacking/threatening you is NOT punishable by death. I'd have socked him too, but somehow, seeing that I'm a white female, I think the reaction to his shooting me while I was unarmed would not have gone over so well. (Cue comments from crazy internet haters about how much they would enjoy me being shot).
Any "threat" Zimmerman felt was of his own making, instigated by Zimmerman and by Zimmerman's own logic Treyvon had the right to stand his ground.
People condemn Zimmerman for not following police orders. Well there is no proof he didn't follow police orders. He also loses sight of Trayvon for over a minute on the tape of his 911 call. Can't follow someone if you don't know where they are.
People condemn Zimmerman for not having life threatening injuries. Well, he has a broken nose. There's the high resolution police photo. That's a life threatening injury.
What else?
Scuba,
A broken nose is life threatening??? A broken nose he got from a fight HE started??? Like I said, you don't get to start a fight and then shoot your UNARMED opponent because you think they got the better of you. No one put Zimmerman in a "threatening" position, except Zimmerman himself. Martin did NOT go after Zimmerman. Zimmerman went after him. If it weren't for Zimmerman NO ONE would have felt threatened, himself included.
If someone was on top of you, and had already broken your nose, I don't think it would be unreasonable to think that your life was in danger.
Let me put this another way, how injured do you think should Zimmerman have been before he defended himself?
Latrine lawyers...all of you...you have NO facts to go on...only the defense and prosecutors have the facts...
Let the courts do their job... no one here has the facts so your points posted are just opinion and speculation... and allot of assumption.
Opinion, speculation and assumption all lead to one thing....BULLCRAP
oh and Sarah... YOU definitely DO NOT have the facts and know jack about this case.
Scuba
Zimmerman started the fight. He deserved to get his ass kicked, and he did. The problem for Trayvon Martin was that he was carrying a gun and defended himself against an unarmed juvenile with a deadly weapon.
Zimmerman deserved his fate. Martin did not deserve his.
So let me get this straight, Martin had a right to stand his ground but Zimmerman didnt?
I'm confused Mr Lawyer for the Martin family, please clarify. If I am following someone and I start getting the @!$%# kicked out of me, which I might have coming, and I even remotely think there is a chance I'm gonna die by that persons actions, you are darn right I am going to do everything I can to survive. And that includes shooting someone. I am protecting myself even if it was my actions that may have put me in that situation. Its natural instinct in every species to want to survive and to do what it takes to stay alive.
Zimmerman is guilty of being stupid but Martin, by HIS actions, helped cause his death. He is at least partially responsible also. Let the hating begin.
You don't need to suffer life threatening injuries before you have the right to defend your life, that is absurd and defeats the purpose. The purpose of self defense is to PREVENT life threatening injuries. If your injuries ARE life threatening, you are more than likely UNABLE to defend yourself! Punches often result in being knocked out and rendered defenseless, one would have every right to use lethal force in such a situation.
And for those who believe Martin had every right to defend HIMSELF, Zimmerman followed him through COMMON areas of the community as anyone would have a right to follow a suspicious person. especially with the intention of reporting their activity to police which he was actively doing.
Any kind of contact with another person with different DNA would have resulted in some type of DNA transference from one individual to another. You leave skin cells on your clothes just by touching them or folding them. holding someone's hand or touching them leaves some of their skin cells/DNA on mine as well.
And his knuckles were not scratched or scraped--he had a small cut on his left ring finger knuckle, and that was the only wound he had on his hands.
This wasn't a matter of a race. This was about allegations that the Sanford Police didn't do their job and arrest a person who shot another unarmed person. This was about the lead investigator declaring this 'negligent manslaughter-unnecessary killing to prevent unlawful act' and the DA's office declining to prosecute. That's the real problem here--it only became about race to get national attention.
Manslaughter is defined as killing another person. Murder would be deliberate and premeditated, manslaughter would be killing, even accidental or in self-defense. So yes, this was manslaughter.
'Probably' does not mean 'did'. I've seen nothing out there that says he did. I like football--I'm into football. Dies that mean I study or play? No.
911 operator in this case was a civilian, not a law officer. Zimmerman had no obligation to obey the operator.
Had my nose broken twice playing basketball. The first time, that almost knocked me out and required surgical repair, by nose only bled a few drops. The second time only had small fractures allowed to heal on their own my nose bled so much the pool had to be mopped up.
How much Zimmerman's nose is bleeding is not an indication of how hard he was hit.
He'll look like that from the other end after a good long stay in prison. Good bye George, your services are not needed any longer.
Everyone here somes to forget ONE MAJOR FACT, Zimmerman was TOLD BY THE POLICE and I quote, "NOT TO FOLLOW THE SUSPECT!!!" So, the defense has no case of self defense, because George FAILED to follow instructions, and 2 there was NOT DNA of the kid in the wounds on George. I believe in the right to own and bare guns, just dont sell them to STUPID people or wanna-be cops like Zimmerman.
the case will boil down to this fact, If George would have stayed where he was Told He would have NEVER been attacked or needed to KILL that kid. Another Fact about Neighbough hood watch programs, the guard is ONLY to OBSERVE and call the police when needed. Not to TAKE ANY ACTION, Just WATCH UNTIL THE POLICE ARRIVE....
Actually Liberals, following someone isn't a crime... especially if you're part of a neighborhood watch, and protecting your neighborhood... nor is being followed justification for attacking and beating someone... a police dispatcher has zero authority to tell you what to do... and from accounts and evidence, it looks like the little "angel" who got froggy got what was coming to him..... on a side note, everyone with a CCW should be carrying all the time... because when this verdict comes back not guilty, the racial hatred that's been fanned by Oblunder and the Marxist media will explode in rioting just like after the Rodney King verdict (which, unlike this case, I think WAS a travesty). I vividly remember the guy who was dragged from his truck and bashed in the head with a brick by one of the rioting cretins. And there's already been black on white racial violence ostensibly payback "for Trayvon".... If the same thing happens here, there may be a few more Trayvons....
He was Told we do not need you to do that Zimmerman was never ordered not to follow
Punching can lead to serous brain injury or even death. So if I was on the ground being punched by someone who was on top of me and I had no other recourse, I would shoot the person. I have seen first hand the devastating results punches can do. Some people seem to think that punching someone is trivial and non life threatening therefore doesn't warrant the use of deadly force to protect yourself. People are killed every year by a single punch. That being said clearly some fault lies with Zimmerman he should have listened to the operator instructions to stay in his car. But is following someone a punch worthy offense? I recommend everyone watch the documentary called "One Punch Homicide". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uoYasQ1Fyk
Scuba,
Trayon wasn't maliciously attacking him. He was unarmed and minding his own business, and got scared when an guy started following and coming after him. If Zimmerman had retreated Trayvon wouldn't have continued to pummel him, he WASN'T looking for a fight in the first place. He wasn't beating him out of meaness or in the commission of a crime, he punched him because he was afraid for his life. As it appears he should have been. Zimmerman wasn't even abiding by Neighborhood Watch rules. Whether following the 911 operator was mandatory or not doesn't matter, it's still what he should have done, for this very reason.
Zimmerman should have stood his ground by dialing 911, following their orders and giving police info if he had any. Not by playing wanna be cop, following an innocent person, picking a fight and then shooting an UNARMED kid.
I thought I read zim was on his way back to his truck and then poor little trav decided to confront him. did you people see the real pics of trav not just when he was 12? there is a sight that all the info is supposed to be on for the public to see since it is such a big race case not just a man protecting his neighborhood and they could not find people for the jury. I went to it a couple months back but it was to much to read at the time. just google it and you can read all you want.
Jay..."Everyone here somes to forget ONE MAJOR FACT, Zimmerman was TOLD BY THE POLICE and I quote, "NOT TO FOLLOW THE SUSPECT!!!"
Actually the 911 operator in this case was a civilian. Zimmerman was under no obligation to follow the operator's advice.
Even if the operator were law enforcement, if I felt my life was in danger I would act according to the situation I was in, as opposed to putting my life at risk by following instructions of someone listening on one end of a phone call.
HS,
I believe at that point in time he hadn't even made contact with Trayvon and was merely following him. How was his life in danger?
Trayvon was a 17 year old high school football player. Big, strong and athletic. I have no idea why anyone would think he would fear for his life when a shorter, out-of-shape, slightly overweight guy in his 30's got out of a vehicle and asked him what he was doing.
Trayvon wasn't some angel either. Here is a comment about his Twitter account. I won't post the actual comments because they are extremely offensive.
Martin's Twitter account, which was activated prior to the boy's death, shows a history of racist and sexist comments posted by the teen in the weeks and months before the fatal incident.
Using the profile name "Slim" with the slogan "No Limit Nigga" Martin posted an array of sexist and racially charged comments to his Twitter page.
http://www.examiner.com/article/trevon-martin-slain-teen-s-twitter-account-reveals-sexist-and-racist-tendencies
If you want to read some of it, go here:
http://www.femisex.com/content/travon-martins-life-was-a-tragedy-more-one-count
Sarah, His life wasn't in danger at that moment. Neither was Trayvon's. And no one has any idea what Trayvon felt after he ended the conversation on the phone. And according to the person on the other end of the phone, Trayvon was annoyed, angry and anything but in fear for his life. Someone following you in a car or on foot, or asking you what you're doing is not justification to assault them, anymore than merely getting punched in the face is justification for killing someone. No one is totally innocent, in my opinion.
My interpretation of the whole mess is that it was one big misunderstanding from the get-go by two people with big chips on their shoulders. Recipe for disaster.
Sarah,
How do you retreat from someone who is on top of you, pinning you to the ground? If Trayvon had punched Zimmerman and ran away, I might agree with you that it was just a scared kid (I wouldn't believe that he was right in assaulting Zimmerman, but I could see how a 17 year old might not react as responsibly as an adult). But once Trayvon got on top of Zimmerman, Zimmerman had every right to defend himself.
And how do you know Zimmerman didn't heed the police order? He can be heard acknowledging the dispatcher on the tape and his heavy breathing stops immediately afterward. He even states that he doesn't know where Trayvon is, so it certainly doesn't sound like he was chasing him at that point
HS,
Yeah, and some of my FB posts you wouldn't believe either. That doesn't mean he was doing anything wrong that night, anymore than my posting about wanting to take a hammer to the driver in front of me proves I'm a psychopath.
You're right, he was a seventeen year old kid and very rarely are they angels, but that doesn't mean he was doing anything wrong that night, nor, even if it did, would Zimmerman have had knowledge of those posts. Zimmerman wasn't following him because of his Tweets. And tweeting stupid @!$%# isn't a crime, nor is social interaction on the internet a true look into someone's character.
You don't get a free pass on shooting an unarmed person because they tweet stupid @!$%#.
Scuba,
First, the burden of proof is on those claiming self defense here, so please prove that Trayvon was on top.
Easy question...
Yes or no, would Zimmerman have been in that situation at all if not for Zimmerman?
Easy question...
What was Trayvon's motivation for punching Zimmerman?
Sarah,
The eyewitness put Trayvon on top of Zimmerman "raining down blows MMA style."
And I don't know what Trayvon's motivation was. But there is no excuse for attacking someone short of being attacked yourself. And, as the lack of injuries on Trayvon proves, he wasn't attacked.
Sarah: any bodily injury from another person, unless it can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was the aggressor, then use of deadly force is in Law self defense; this was tragedy that both could have avoided, however there is no evidence that Zimmerman was the aggressor, following a person is not a hostile act; as I said before, the State will have a hard time getting past a verdict of not Guilty.
Saxon,
Not quite...
Where was the unlawful threat??? That would apply if Trayvon was following Zimmerman, committing a crime, instigating the fight, or had some sort of mens rea. There was no unlawful threat here, and any threat that developed was because of Zimmerman's instigation and escalation. If the threat was great enough to shoot an UNARMED kid, it was great enough that Zimmerman should have followed the 911 operator's advice and waited for the cops.
Scuba,
Eye witness testimony is the least credible evidence out there...
http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/Eyewitness-Misidentification.php
Sarah, In no way am I trying to imply that Zimmerman was justified based on Trayvon's twitter post. Many seem to think they know GZ in intimate detail and can tell exactly what his thoughts were as if they were FBI profilers with decades of experience. The same for Trayvon. I merely posted the information about his twitter account as insight into his character. (If you ever read all the post, he talks about women as if they're good for nothing but a sperm receptacle. I will digress no further on that subject. Just read it for yourself.)
I agree to disagree, disagreement being a general theme on this subject.
(Based on some of the witty comments you've made putting some jerks on the vine in their place, I would believe some of the things you've posted on FB and in no way think you were a psychopath.)
HS & Saxon,
I do appreciate that you two normally come down on the other side of issues as I do, but you're never jerky about it.
Thanks, just don't ever ask any of my ex-boyfriends about that. :)
Actually, the quote was "we don't need you to do that" to which the reply was "OK". Later in that same 911 transcript Zimmerman is asked where Martin is to which he replies he (Zimmerman) replies he doesn't know. That sure doesn't sound like someone that is still actively following a suspect....that sounds like the reply of someone that is returning to his vehicle and no longer actively persuing....but that whole section of the transcript seems to be ignored by Martin's supporters while they are diligently rewording Zimmerman's "quotes".
But being that the quote has been posted over a thousand times by now, I'm sure my re-posting it will in no way change your misreading or misinterpreting it.
sarah; this is not a stand your ground case; it is a self-defense case, retreat is not a factor in stand your ground(unless it is a confrontation not of your own making); self defense is not based on the degree of the battery, only that a battery was in progress; both Martin and Zimmerman were wrong in this matter, however since Martin was shot during(not after ) the battery, then deadly force is justified under law.
Dennis says:
December 4, 2012
I uploaded a graphic showing the doctored photo and the real photo side by side for a rough size approximation. Just look at how swollen and huge his nose is while he is sitting in the police car. Then look at the photo of him at the police station after he was cleaned up. His nose is the normal size. Swelling magically gone..poof.
click> http://tinypic.com/r/nycxax/6
Sarah,
I'm confused. Is it your position that, as soon as Zimmerman got out of his car, that Trayvon was allowed to inflict any level of physical harm upon Zimmerman?
Explain to me why Trayvon was justified in punching, and then getting on top of, Zimmerman.
And if you won't accept eyewitness testimony or pictures as evidence, what will you accept?
Actually, you are wrong here Sarah. Burden off proof rests with the plaintiff (in this case, the prosecutor). The law of the land is innocent until proven guilty. And, as far as I know, the constitution was never amended to change the innocent until proven guilty. So it is upon the prosecutor to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that George murdered Trayvon (key word is murdered, as it is obvious that George shot and killed Trayvon, but the question is, was it murder?). Personally, I don't think any murder charge will stick. Manslaughter is a strong possibility. But murder? No.
I have noticed that many people commenting in support of George have not heard his statements. Therefore, I am going to post them here---If you actually make the effort to listen to his statements you will find them full of lies. I recommend that you listen to this one first--
CLICK> Audio Recorded Interview with Investigator Serino on February 29 (Part 3)
.
.
George Zimmerman Reenacts Shooting of Treyvon Martin for Police at Crime Scene ....Part 1
George Zimmerman Reenacts Shooting of Treyvon Martin for Police at Crime Scene (Part 2)
.
Audio Recorded Statement to Investigator Singleton on February 26 (Part 1)
Audio Recorded Statement to Investigator Singleton on February 26 (Part 2)
Audio Recorded Interview with Investigator Serino of Sanford Police Department on February 27 (1205 AM)
Audio Recorded Interview with Investigator Serino on February 29 (Part 1)
Audio Recorded Interview with Investigator Serino on February 29 (Part 2)
Audio Recorded Interview with Investigator Serino on February 29 (Part 3)
George Zimmerman was legally entitled to have his
lawyer get a color copy of his bloodied face during the beginning stage of the
discovery phase.
He didn't.
Angela Corey's prosecutorial
team only gave the defense team a black and white photo of Zimmerman's facial
injuries when discovery began in the case. Yet they had every ability to do the
right thing and show more clearer evidence that George was beaten by Travyon
Martin the night of the shooting.
In the Trayvon Martin shooting,
however, it appears the prosecution may be suffering from a lack of sufficient
evidence to prove any malicious intent by Zimmerman, so they are withholding
evidence until the last possible moment in order to try and give O'Mara less
time to formulate his case for court.
Special prosecutor Angela Corey
declined to comment on O'Mara's statement. The "discovery phase" of a murder
trial involves the prosecutor giving the defense attorney(s) access to (or
copies of) all the pieces of evidence about the case. And yes, that includes any
evidence uncovered that could help the defense prove their client didn't commit
the crime accused of, which is known as exculpatory evidence.
Shouldn't the prosecution let all the facts come out, rather than try
and hide those that help tell the truth?
How is his nose swollen but its back to normal in the police station? Thats something that seems very weird. Did they mess with his picture before then or at the police station to make his face look better.
Can we just admit he did the world a favor and move on?
Seems like a callous comment on your part, Joe.
Nope, entirely thought out and heartfelt.
You are just a guy reading articles and making ignorant comments to upset people. Silly
I'll go with you on that one. One dead thug. No doubt people are tired of being victims and hopefully there will be enough to convince these thugs people are tired of living in fear of them. Bye bye trevon, try selling drugs where you are now or case out a place to rob.
Joe - Trayvon was a child. Get over it. Hopefully your kids will see the age of 18. A child Joe - really.
Yes he was a minor but that doesn't matter. If anything a "child" (teenager) is even more dangerous because they have all the strength of an adult (if not more) but not the wisdom or self-control.
Entirely thought out and heartfelt for someone with an extremely limited capacity for any deep or meaningful thought. Very similar to a chimpanzee, I would say.
Sorry, he might have legally been a minor, but he was in no way a child.
LOSER, go blog your ANUS!!!
A man would never make the comments i've read here about a young man on his way home, hunted and murdered. It shouldn't happen in civil society. Please no one get upset by Joe's comments, he has emotional needs to invoke negative responses because he feels inadequate in himself.
Once again here in Florida, We had an incident where 6 Black youths, ages 18, 17, 16, 16, 15,14,13, Robbed a 79 year old man at a flea market who ran a coin and gun booth, he refused to sell 2 of them a gun, so the returned with 4 friends and beat him, smashed his case and stole items, when they were done, they shot him in the stomach. Age has nothing to do with ones criminal status, you do big boy crimes, you should get big boy time. Thugs today think because they are under 18 they can terrorize anyone they want. I say kill a few more of these motherf**kers, and they might get the fukn message
The simple fact is that if Zimmerman had stayed in his car, as advised by the police dispatcher, Trayvon would still be alive. Trayvon wasn't stalking Zimmerman, Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon. You can call Trayvon a thug because he was black and you're a racist, but this would have never happened without the cowboy attitude of Zimmerman, and there's no evidence whatsoever to suggest Trayvon was any level of thug.
Trayvon wasn't a thug because he was black he was a thug because he was a thug.
Trayvon and Zimmerman BOTH displayed poor judgment in this situation.
LOVE how people take Trayvon's side- JUST because the media displayed the 8 year old picture all the time- NAAHH no media bias there..... yeah.
No matter what happened- even if Zimmerman is telling the truth- people will always play the race card and blame the "white" hispanic.
One question- what the hell was Trayvon out so late for his age? If he was in my neighborhood and there were break-ins recently- I might stop him and ask him what he was doing there.
People get a spine- stop being MSN sheeple and living off the race card. Once a thug always a thug- if not Zimmerman- could have been another black the next week- then we never would have heard about this....
SAD- but why did the parents let him stay out so late looking for daddy's house????
"The simple fact is that if Zimmerman had stayed in his car, as advised by the police dispatcher..."
Listen to the tapes, they are easily available. Zimmerman was not in his car, but was told to return to the entrance, and he said, "OK".
This whole case is nothing more than trying to advance accusations of racism. The press latched on to the name, thought that Z was white, but then turned him into a "white hispanic". Trayvon was not drinking Arizona Tea, he was drinking Arizona Watermelon Fruit Juice Cocktail, but the press ignored that fact in order to be PC. Trayvon's web sites were immediately purged; why? The press kept posting a picture of a 12 year-old Trayvon; he was a 6 foot 160 pound young man, not a child.
Trayvon attacked Z, and was shot in self defense.
What many people hate to acknowledge is this young man was minding his business and not bothering anyone. Zimmerman took it upon himself to approach him and don't expect the response he got which was a beatdown. I'm wondering if he would have ever approached Martin if he didn't have a gun. My guess is no.
Enuff11004,
There is no proof of who approached who. I tend to think that Martin approached Zimmerman, because Zimmerman had already lost sight of Martin for 1:30 (from the 911 tape) and I don't think Zimmerman could have located and caught up to Martin in less than 1:45. But that's just my opinion.
I was seventeen at one time. Stalk me for several blocks through a residential neighborhood at night and I will see what you are up to before I lead you to my doorstep. A note to those that would accost me on a public street and demand my ID or reason for being there. You'd better be prepared to show me your own ID and a badge first. If not, know that you'll be told to mind your own business. If you persist by attempting to physically restrain me, your nose will be in much worse condition than Zimmerman's.
Facts show that Zimmerman was a wanna-be cop that had called 911 several times previous to this incident. Witnesses describe his frustration with local cops in how they responded to his numerous calls. We've all had nosy neighbors like him that brag and threaten to take matters in their own hands. The guy was off his nut and carrying a loaded gun. A recipe for disaster that was bound to happen.
The bloody nose means nothing. Put yourself in his shoes. You freaked out and killed a guy. You realize that pleading self-defense is the only way out of this mess. How hard would it be to deliberately smash your face into the sidewalk? There are numerous scenarios where the kid realized the nut had a gun and acted in self-defense himself which resulted in the bloody nose.
Thanks to Zimmerman, the kid is dead. His perspective of the events will never be known. The testimony of the few remote witnesses is spotty at best. Zimmerman is the only person alive that knows the truth. His testimony is certainly suspect because of his past history. Can the State prove that he is unstable and a cold-blooded murderer? We'll find that answer sooner or later if we never know what truly happened that night.
This new law was merely a political ploy. We've had effective self-defense laws on the books for years. I knew at the time that this would bring every gun nut with murderous instincts out of the woodwork. There have been a few highly publicized events such as this one to attract our attention as a result of Stand Your Ground. How many other cases were quietly dismissed with little notice? How many murderous screwballs were released on our streets to stalk and kill again?
Not me nor my kids. Random piss tests are the way to go. Only those who need to live in a dream state smoke weed. If they want to smoke weed when they leave my house then that will be on them till then my house is drug free. I'm also the only residence in my neighborhood never to be broken into while all my neighbors have been broken into multiple times. So, there you go... we all don't smoke weed. I don't need all the crap that goes with it. And yeah my house is always filled with teenagers because they all know that in my house nobody is going to try and pressure them "to be cool".
As you were saying 'Don't use "we all smoke it" as an excuse for you smoking pot.' You just didn't have the strength and will power to say, "No".
Two days ago you thought he didn't have any injuries. Now confronted that he may have been attacked and had to shoot in self defense you seek other answers. You had a troubled kid in a neighborhood he had no reason to be in walking around houses he shouldn't have been walking around. If I see someone in my neighborhood that I've never seen before I'll go out and I'll find out who they are. I've never been attacked for doing so... at least not yet. If I was then I would put them down and it wouldn't matter if they were a minor. I don't do the prejudice thing either. If they are hanging around my neighbors house I don't really give a hell about what color they are. Black,
White, Hispanic, Native Indian, and so on... my neighbors work too damn hard for what little they have to have a drugged out piece of @!$%# come in and still their stuff.
I'm not a liberal and thus the color of a person's skin doesn't matter to me. I think we should all be judged by what we bring to the table. Some people can't handle that though and thus they make special rules and excuses based on what a person wears. "Oh he had a black outfit on so he couldn't possibly have done that." or "Well I wear a black outfit and he wears a black outfit so I have to have his back. It doesn't matter what he does because us black outfit wearers got it rougher." Most of the liberals here think this guy is guilty simply because he has the wrong outfit on... give him a black one and he would be innocent from the very moment he fired the gun.
All it ends up being is excuses for supporting the wrong thing. To me, we are all the same under the outfit.
He (TM) portrayed himself as a Thug Gangsta on his social media accounts, the very ones his parents and their lawyers tried to erase, hide or seal before they went public with their story. Come on you know he was a thug, everyone knows he was a thug.
How about the burglary tool found in his backpack, bag of women's jewelry, his post on twitter about attacking a bus driver, his twitter handle, which as a person of mixed race I find offensive. He was serving his THIRD suspension from school just that year, you don't get 10 days for being in the wrong area, which is the lie his parents and their lawyers put out to the media, until someone got to the truth and all of a sudden it doesn't matter.
They have the gal to talk about a smear campaign against TM, that's all they did for months against GZ with the help of some well paid lawyers, "organizers", politicians and "News Agencies". Who all had no problem of "creating" the truth, with old photos, edited 911 tapes, enhanced then re-enhanced tapes, misinformation about TM and GZ both. They spent 6 weeks cleaning up TM's history before they ever went public, that should raise some serious doubts about his family and their motives. Things like donation accounts, trademarks, travel expenses, make over for his mom, and who is paying for his parents LAWYERS and all of their expenses?????
This new photo it just adds so much weigh to GZ's account of what happened, in the end it was self defense 100%.
Dennis says:
December 4, 2012
I uploaded a graphic showing the doctored photo and the real photo side by side for a rough size approximation. Just look at how swollen and huge his nose is while he is sitting in the police car. Then look at the photo of him at the police station after he was cleaned up. His nose is the normal size. Swelling magically gone..poof.
click> http://tinypic.com/r/nycxax/6
One picture has his position facing down a little and to the left. The other picture was taken hours later after he had been cleaned up and bandaged and the position was up and to the right. Even in that last photo you can see that his nose is swollen. You just wouldn't have known where to look unless you seen the other picture. If you had two front on photographs of the guy in the same position and done at the same time then you might have something but you didn't. Take a photography class and you'll then be able to see where you went wrong.
I think I'll look back on this page in an hour or so and see if anyone posts anything intelligent or new, or if it's just the same old posts by people who have already made up their minds.
This all reminds me of the OJ case years ago. Didn't matter what the evidence was; people were steadfast in their belief of his guilt or innocence regardless.
What you read on boards like this says more about people's prejudices than anything to do with the actual crime.
The amazing thing is that all the people commenting on this story will not be on the jury and will not know all of the evidence until the case is over.
The jury won't know all the evidence either. There is no such thing as a fair trial in this country because information is deliberately kept from the jury by the judge and lawyers.
I would never sit on a capital murder case, unless there was absolutely no question that the defendant was guilty--as in he was caught red-handed and confessed.
Click> Zimmerman's Gravity --
All the blood on George's head ran down which indicates he could not have been on the bottom with Trayvon on top. If George had been on the bottom the blood would have been smudged and smeared and not in the trickle lines seen in this video.
Click> "No DNA results foreign to Trayvon Benjamin Martin"
AG99
How about this? Why exactly would the defense have to wait this long to get the real picture from the night it happened. What has it been 9 months? Really? They had the picture, it should have been released to the defense immediately. I think the state is playing some PC game for the media.
I think it could be argued that the States reluctance to release it violated his civil rights to a fair trial. Not only the one in the courtroom, but the one in public opinion, because all jurors come from the public.
Can the trial just get on with it? THEN when it is over, we can all have a look at all of the evidence? (though I doubt all of it would be released, but this is Florida...)
Unless it was blood that ran down after GZ stood up.
My, I see the collapsing has started already. Mine will probably be next.
john: I don't really see the state playing a media game since apparently the photo was always available in black & white. Suddenly releasing it in color does seem a little odd, I agree, but not overly so. As for the jury pool, that's been compromised for a long time now.
@you all thoughtful comments...you do realize he is sitting up at the time of the photo. Of course it was going to be running down him. If he was on top of Martin with that bloody nose he would have bled all over martin.
you all have thoughtful comments
I was not there, and I doubt whether you were. Regardless of whether GZ was on the ground, if Trayvon did this to him are you suggesting that GZ did not have the right to defend himself? I would have in a second regardless of whether my attacker was black, white, brown, red, blue or green.
But, because we weren't there and don't know all the facts, conspiracy theorists might argue that it was GZ dad punching him in the nose for dragging the family name down.
AG99
I think it could also be argued that the state only brought charges due to public outcry, and the visual of a black and white photo compared to colored justified it. I think the state knew it would lose in public opinion if all evidence came out.
I don't know what happened, but believe the state should have some things to answer for. Railroading any American to satisfy mob mentality out of over-the-top political correctness is offensive to us all.
George's blood was not found on Trayvon's hands--
George pursued Trayvon from one end of the neighborhood to the other. Trayvon was simply walking innocently home from the store. George did not see Trayvon do anything illegal, and yet George exited his vehicle with a loaded gun and ran after Trayvon. George even said "yes" to the dispatcher when he was asked if he were following Trayvon.
The only person who had a right to stand his ground was Trayvon.
john: Yeah, that's kind of how it looks to me, too. The events of the night are nebulous, but what little objective evidence there is seems too weak to prosecute successfully. Glad I'm not on this jury.
If I understand this case correctly, it looks like Zimmerman got punched in the nose for confronting the kid who was minding his business on the way back to his father's house. He then shoots the kid and kills him, which makes as much sense as shooting a kid for playing his music too loud. Florida laws make it open season for everyone. Next time I visit I must remember to bring my guns.
I speculate that George Zimmerman shot to kill that tragic night. He did NOT HAVE TO aim for Trayvon's heart.
That cry for help was a cry of forlorn desperation! It was a cry from someone looking death in its face!
.
I truly believe that cry was Trayvon's. It was a pitiful cry from Trayvon as George aimed at him and said, "You are going to die".
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Why would a seventeen year old react to George and say, "You are going to die."?! Trayvon did not need to do that. He defensively took care of the creepy pursuer by jabbing George in the nose......( which probably caused George to injure his head against that tree as George fell to the ground.)
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I believe that was TOO MUCH for the wannabe cop....the man who just never seemed to be successful at anything.....the man who desperately wanted to prove himself after failing at so many ventures.......... from insurance (unable to pass the test to obtain a license).......... to police cadet (not accepted)........to D's in criminal justice courses ................to rejection of his application for an associates degree at Seminole College.
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Yes, George............... who was "at the end of his rope" due to so many failures............ let his RAGE take over after that JAB to his nose--- because that jab ENDED another of GZ's attempts to shine as a hero........a hero watch patroler
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Yes, George decided that Trayvon was going to PAY for the "put down" that GZ had just endured from that jab to the nose! I truly believed that George decided that he would make Trayvon pay for it with his LIFE!
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In this cold act........George revealed that his mind was truly DEPRAVED!
Hey john,you are so right,the trial is not even starting till june.And it is probably going to go on for a year at least.That should be plenty of time for the groups to calm down from rioting and causing millions of dollars in damage.Plus the lawyers and judges put a little bank in there pockets,and Zimmerman will be just happy to be a free man.Its even more offensive, when they want you to think your almost better off letter a black person kill you,or beat you or rob you.Because any bodily harm to that black person must be racist,right.
yahtc - you have been trying to pollute every thread about GZ so what is in this for you? How about Trayvon just goes home and not confront GZ which even his GF says he did? Oh yeah that doesnt matter. Guess what Trayvon had a right to be there so did George. Trayvon had NO RIGHT to assault him. Anyone who says trayvon was "standing his ground" has no idea what the law is or how it applies. Internet judges make me laugh my arse off.
Click A Walk With Marinade Dave, Part Trois
George was lying.
Yea, unprovoked. Racial. Zimmerman wasn't defending himself. Yea, right..................
you all have thoughtful comments
I hate to tell you this, but you are "not" judge, jury, and executioner. No matter what you believe. Sometimes I wish the internet would have never come to be. Mob mentality should never have a voice.
Click http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence
Click> Zimmerman's Gravity --
All the blood on George's head ran down which indicates he could not have been on the bottom with Trayvon on top. If George had been on the bottom the blood would have been smudged and smeared and not in the trickle lines seen in this video.
you all have thoughtful comments
No sense in wasting any more time. I will leave you with this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPWVq6MwW4E
Yeah this pretty much puts the nail into the prosecutions coffin.
TM didn't have any defensive wounds on his body. No bruising on hands / arms / chest / face, no cuts / impact marks. All he had was scrapes on his knuckles which are consistent with punching. Now looking at GZ's face in full color you can see where TM got those cut knuckles from.
Ok now I'm going out on a limb here and assuming that TM was not raised from the dead nor is in any form a zombie, vampire or ghoul. That would mean TM had to of inflicted those injuries on GZ prior to him being fatally shot. This corroborates the defenses version of events that TM jumped GZ and beat on him and that GZ eventually pulled the gun and shot TM at 1m or less range (ballistics has proven this part).
Now guys I'm not a trial lawyer but I do have a firm grasp of US law. That's a pretty solid argument for self defense even without the Florida "stand your ground" law. With that law being present it stands that GZ shouldn't even have to go to trial, though the public wants one.
Possible prosecution arguments would now be
#1 TM had secretly mastered several martial arts and was able to beat GZ without sustaining any defensive wounds. GZ then shot TM.
#2 TM was a zombie and inflicted those wounds onto GZ immediately after his death, after inflicting revenge he then died a second time for good.
#3 There was a third shooter on the grassy knoll, er .. third puncher? Someone else inflicted those injuries onto GZ and ran away prior to the police arriving. Self inflicted injuries are easy to detect and those aren't self inflicted.
Or they could try a prosecution version of the OJ / Chewbaka defense where you just throw all logic and rational out the window in favor of a highly dramatic emotional attack. "GZ was an evil white drugged up racial supremacist out hunting poor black skittle carrying children to eat their hearts, for these atrocities we should kill him so who's with me".
I'm thinking their going for the latter knowing it's a very slim chance of conviction. Conviction requires you convincing twelve jury members that there is no reasonable doubt to GZ's innocence. That picture along with TM's lack of defensive wounds and no eye witness's pretty much guarantee's a reasonable doubt.
click> A Show of Hands
George tells an impossible story
theotherguy, Martin did not have bruised, scraped, or anything on his knuckles that was consistent with punching anything.
@Miss
It's already been identified by the autopsy.
Defense experts cite it as an offensive injury
Prosecution experts cite it as not necessarily being an offensive injury.
Both will call their respective experts during the trial. In either case it's awfully hard to explain how GZ got those facial injuries (two black eyes and broken nose) without connecting them with TM's fists.
Why wasn't George's nose swollen in the picture taken at the police station that night? CLICK> Evidence Photos
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Would someone explain photoshop to me and picture manipulation to me as far as pixel detection?
For a joke, someone showed how a picture (below) can be manipulated--
click> http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMGZUpClose.jpg
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theotherguy, according to the autopsy, Martin had one one-eighth inch by one-fourth inch laceration below his second knuckle on the fourth finger of his right hand. The autopsy does not specify if it was fresh or had begun healing. I guess the ME will testify about that at trial.
That's it. No other bruising or scrapes on his hands. No swelling. Nothing.
Miss
And several experts have already weighed in on that fact. Defense says it's from him punching GZ, prosecution says not necessarily.
Now to tell you the difference between offensive and defensive injuries.
Defensive injuries are ones sustained from impacts and cuts, they typically take the form of bruising and slash's (if a blade is present) or gnash's (from being torn). Their pretty easy to spot.
Offensive injuries are almost always exclusive to the firsts, namely the knuckles and fingers. They look similar to defensive injuries with the exception being their location, we don't' use our fists to block blows.
Only untrained individuals who watch too many movies think people actually use fists to block incoming blows. Instinct will have you raise your forearms or turn away from an incoming hit. This is why you see bruising on the forearms, upper arms and shoulders of those being hit. Unsuccessful blocks end with bruising on the chest and facial area.
Now eventually after all this waffling and circle jerking you'll stop to thing exactly how I know this.
I was seventeen at one time. Stalk me for several blocks through a residential neighborhood at night and I will see what you are up to before I lead you to my doorstep. A note to those that would accost me on a public street and demand my ID or reason for being there. You'd better be prepared to show me your own ID and a badge first. If not, know that you'll be told to mind your own business. If you persist by attempting to physically restrain me, your nose will be in much worse condition than Zimmerman's.
Facts show that Zimmerman was a wanna-be cop that had called 911 several times previous to this incident. Witnesses describe his frustration with local cops in how they responded to his numerous calls. We've all had nosy neighbors like him that brag and threaten to take matters in their own hands. The guy was off his nut and carrying a loaded gun. A recipe for disaster that was bound to happen.
The bloody nose means nothing. Put yourself in his shoes. You freaked out and killed a guy. You realize that pleading self-defense is the only way out of this mess. How hard would it be to deliberately smash your face into the sidewalk? There are numerous scenarios where the kid realized the nut had a gun and acted in self-defense himself which resulted in the bloody nose.
Thanks to Zimmerman, the kid is dead. His perspective of the events will never be known. The testimony of the few remote witnesses is spotty at best. Zimmerman is the only person alive that knows the truth. His testimony is certainly suspect because of his past history. Can the State prove that he is unstable and a cold-blooded murderer? We'll find that answer sooner or later if we never know what truly happened that night.
This new law was merely a political ploy. We've had effective self-defense laws on the books for years. I knew at the time that this would bring every gun nut with murderous instincts out of the woodwork. There have been a few highly publicized events such as this one to attract our attention as a result of Stand Your Ground. How many other cases were quietly dismissed with little notice? How many murderous screwballs were released on our streets to stalk and kill again?
@0123456789
None of that has any bearing on the case and constitutes a Chewbacca defense (or offense in this case).
Driving, Walking, Running and following someone are all legal activities. There is no wrong on GZ's part here (or on TM's for that matter).
Otherwise your distorting the facts to fit your preconceived notions. There is plenty of evidence of a struggle all over GZ's face and body with some evidence of that struggle on TM's hands. That TM was the only other actor in that situation also indicates that TM attacked GZ. Unless your willing to subscribe to one of the above three theories,
#1 TM being Bruce Lee and not getting hit while holding GZ off until he was shot.
#2 TM being a zombie and attacking GZ after being shot dead.
#3 There being another person present who inflicted those injuries onto GZ after GZ shot TM.
theotherguy, you do realize that the defense and prosecutors can say whatever they want.The point is is that there is no evidence that Martin hit anyone on his hands. One tiny laceration that may have been from something previous is not evidence he beat Zimmerman.
I don't care how you claim to know this. You didn't read the autopsy report, or any other evidence, to know what was really there.
theotherguy1234
I'll point this out to keep you and others reading your post from going to jail. Stalking is certainly illegal and considered a serious offense.
Stalking is not following someone. Stop watching CSI.
Your making your position look weaker and weaker whenever you use hyperbole and exaggeration.
http://www.esia.net/State_Stalking_Laws.htm
Learn the definition of stalking in Florida and be sure to read to the bottom.
It's gotta be a repeated pattern and without legitimate purpose. As GZ only followed TM once and was a member of the neighborhood watch it was either a pattern nor without legitimate purpose.
Zimmerman had a history of stalking others he deemed suspicious. There are police records to that effect by his own statements. He was not on watch the night he murdered Martin and had no legitimate purpose.
You don't get to determine that.
He only followed TM once, stalking requires a pattern on a single individual.
His schedule doesn't matter one iota, he had obvious legitimate purpose.
It's so obvious that the prosecution is NOT charging him for stalking. Prosecutions historically tack on as many charges as possible in a case such that even if they fail to get a conviction on the primary charge they can get convictions on the extra charges. If they felt they could get a conviction on stalking they would of added it.
But continue not reading.
theotherguy1234,
Now you're grasping at straws. Who is making their position look weaker and weaker? Honestly, I respect your opinion as I strongly disagree with it. I have two young sons that could have easily been in young Martin's shoes at his age on that fateful night. They may have escaped death at Zimmerman's hand simply because they are white.
Vigilante justice may be very exciting on the big screen. There is no place for it in civilized society. Zimmerman's desire to play cops and robbers with a loaded gun led to tragedy and most likely murder of an innocent kid in my opinion. The courts will decide this issue. You and I are only left with speculation. Goodnight and peace be with you.
The "expert internet prosecutors and forensics experts" in the court of public opinion have it all figured out except they have no clue to the totality of evidence which they have no access to. Be patient and let the Justice System determine his innocence or guilt or look like ranting fools who think they are the judge and jury.
Fact: The kid did not start the fight. The Killer stalked him and demanded the kid DO WHAT? Whatever it was, the kid did not have to do sh!t but be allowed to go home withour some A hole bugging him.
The shame is the kid did not knock him out before the coward killer pulled his gun and killed him.
It doesn't matter what the kid did or did not do. The killer had no right to demand anything.
Zimmerman will be convicted.
Commonsense101
theotherguy1234
And if George following Trayvon HAD been stalking in FLORIDA he would be charged with that crime. The crime of stalking has been discussed in these threads previously. Apparently George following TM does not meet the legal definition in Florida.
A few points...
1.) And don't go all racist on me, It's a serious question. To all those that claim no bruising on Trayvon's knuckles....If someone gets in a few good punches and less than a minute later gets shot and dies and there is no longer any blood pressure....do bruises still form ???....I've gotten injured at work and playing some football, etc....and it hurts but the bruises don't show up till later...hours later or even the next day.....Do very dark skinned people show bruising as much as a light skinned person ???
2.) From the article "The shooting took place when Zimmerman encountered Martin, who was unarmed and walking through the Sanford, Fla., neighborhood where his father lives."
Just repeating more disinformation....Trayvon's father didn't LIVE there....as stated in his 911 "Missing Person" call to Police the next morning......He called her "a girlfriend". And has been noted visited her once or twice a month....when he is in the Orlando area on business....He did however make arrangements with his EX, for Travon's mother to meet the woman halfway between Miami and Orlando to get Trayvon to Sanford when he got his 10-day suspension from school...
I could go on and on about that 911 call the Dad made....about the last time he saw Trayvon was 8-8:30...the night of the shooting, when Trayvon was already shot dead at 7:30 in the " girlfriends" backyard, 200 ft. from her back patio door, an area full of cops and EMS....and he saw / heard nothing ??? Where was dad that night...out gallivanting around, using Trayvon to babysit "girlfriends" kid ??....Just asking.....
3.) P.S.....EMS did treat Zimmerman on the scene, cleaned up his injuries...Zimmerman's first biggest error was declining going to the hospital, instead going with Police to speak voluntarily to investigators...without legal council....That is the first thing I learned taking Self-Defence courses....The Police are not your friends....After an event, request transport to a hospital, even if not physically injured, being involved in a shooting event has you in need of treatment for shock and contact a lawyer immediately. Respectfully decline to make any statements.
The fact that it took over 8 months for the defense to just get a copy of a color photo of George taken by police is surprising to me. How can it take that long? This just doesn't seem right. There is something really wrong with the process here. The special prosecution appears to be a little bit too 'special' when it takes so long for a citizen's lawyer to get such simple police evidence. Justice is not being served when evidence is not available, so what is the special prosecutor up to?
While Tad above writes to be patient and trust in the justice system, I think there is reason to question that in this specific case.
All this proves is that the defence believes that a bloody nose is justification for killing someone. So if someone is chasing you through a dark neighborhood, for goodness sake don't hit him in the nose.
There is a possibility that this picture was photoshopped. If so was it by the person who took the picture? I suspect that the FBI and the FDLE can answer this.
Why wasn't George's nose swollen in the picture taken at the police station that night? CLICK> Evidence Photos
A poster on another blog wrote this about O'Mara--
I don't want to be wrong, so I'm going to ignore any evidence that I don't like.
Another poster wrote--
So now EVERYONE in American can have a free ticket to shoot and kill someone as long as the shooter can produce a picture of his bloody nose?
This picture doesn't prove that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman first. Nor was Trayvon engaged in criminal activity that he needed to be followed over. If he had seen Trayvon trying to open windows or back doors that would be one thing but just being black while walking through a neighborhood is not a reason follow someone. Being suspicious because of the color of someones skin and nothing else seems racist to me. I see shady looking people in the halls of my apartment building every day. I don't follow them or call the police just because they look shady. I'd only do that if I actually saw them trying to jimmy a door because otherwise I'd be pissing my neighbors off a lot by calling the law on their friends for no reason. This only happened because of suspicion based on appearance not suspicion based on criminal activity. Even seeing someone crawl through a window can actually be innocent. Anybody remember Henry Louis Gates Jr? It was his own house and somebody called the police on him because of his skin color. I guess he's lucky that someone didn't get all John Wayne about it and confront him and then shoot him on his own property. I'm really wondering how the people on here defending Zimmerman would act if some stranger followed them? I'd bet they'd get pretty freaked out and I doubt they'd be very happy about it much less strolling over and introducing themselves amicably. It's easy to sit at your computer and write about how reasonable you'd be. It's completely another when it's actually happening to you. I know for a fact that I'd just take a description and let the police handle it. I've done it before. I live along a row of bars popular with the younger crowd and there are drunken fights between guys and guys, guys and girls, girls and girls outside my window all the time. I don't strap on my ten gallon hat and peacemaker, then jump in the middle. I get a description of their clothing and features and call those who's job it is to do that. As just a citizen I can get my ass sued for interjecting physical violence in a situation that was not life threatening. Now if somebody was being killed I certainly am not going to pull a Kitty Genovese but I'm certainly not going to go down for a minor incident, interject myself into it and potentially make it worse just so I can play White Knight.
Trayvon's body was found 30 feet from the location that George pointed out as being where he shot Trayvon because his head was being pounded on the concrete.
Kinda makes George look guilty.
you all have thoughtful comments
Get real... Someone has already stated that this is simply the color photo of the black and white photo in the prosecution release documents. Quit the speculation over actual evidence already. The FDLE would contest this VERY PUBLICLY and IN COURT if this was not an actual, unedited, photo... likely the one from the civilian camera phone from that night.
It is still irrelevant. George got hit in the nose. The question is who provoked the incident, not who got hit. Martin deserves to be innocent until proven guilty also. I have plenty of friends who would have gladly put your lights out had you gotten in their face, or grabbed their shirt. Of course, that kind of provocation leaves no marks, but is still provocation.
Here's what happened:
Guy who likes to play cop sees someone he thinks is suspicious - a black teenager wearing a hoody. Some people find that suspicious. Wannabe cop guy approaches hoody wearing teen, demands to know what he's up to. Hoody teen is suspicious of guy who was slow-rollin' up behind him, as a black teenager in Florida he is likely well aware of how some people feel about black teenagers. He probably tells gun-guy to "f*ck off and mind his own business" or something like that. I probably would as well. I would be kind of offended if I wasn't up to anything and some random douche takes it as his perogative to stage an impromptu interrogation. Hoody guy continues walking... gun-guy pursues. Hoody guy runs... gun guy pursues.
Now one of two things happened:
1) Gun guy finally gets winded, hoody guy is mad about random douche pursuing him for no good reason. Hoody guy on the way back to house spots gun guy - confronts him. Fight ensues. Hoody guy is pounding gun-guy pretty good. Gun-guy gets scared, kills hoody guy.
2) Gun guy pursues hoody guy who gets sick of running and confronts his pursuer, who by this time hoody guy reasonably believes is hostile. Gun guy demands to know what he's doin around 'his' neighborhood. Pushes and grabs are traded, gun guy tries out his cop takedown moves and fails. Fight ensues. Hoody guy is winning fight, gun-guy gets scared and shoots hoody guy.
I think in this case both are at fault to an extent, no matter which scenario is chosen. Being the adult of the situation, and armed, George Zimmerman is ultimately more responsible in my opinion.... he had no good reason to pursue Trayvon. The story that he was completely blindsided by Trayvon is just silly and not believable whatsoever. He took it upon himself, as an armed adult, to unneccessarily enter a situation which could easily lead to his ass getting whooped and his getting scared enough to fire his weapon. As an adult who is supposedly responsible enough to carry a deadly weapon - he should have known better.
Here is a picture of Trayvon 9 days before he was shot dead.------
http://globalgrind.com/news/Trayvon-Martin-9-Days-Before-Death-Photo?gpage=1#gtop
You can see he is VERY tall and VERY thin. He looks like he has a bright future.
Martin's girlfriend testified that she heard, on the phone, that Martin asked 'why are you following me?' and then another male voice answer 'what are you doing here?' And Zimmerman himself admits he never identified himself as neighborhood watch.
Martin was committing no illegal acts.
Zimmerman had a legal permit to carry concealed, so his firearm was not illegal, however, neighborhood watch rules state that while on duty firearms are not to be carried. That night Zimmerman was not 'on duty', he was running to Target on an errand (one wonders why he would need to take a gun to Target) and thus his carried firearm was not illegal.One might argue that as he was not officially o duty that night he was not obligated to do more than simply call in a suspicious person,then go about his errand; by calling in a person whom he decided was acing suspiciously, then pursuing the individual to 'keep an eye on them for the police' he placed himself 'on duty', making his carrying of firearms against watch rules.
One might also ask why his weapons and permits were not pulled when he began treatment by a psychiatric professional with amphetamines and benzodiazepines, both drugs of which are psychotropic (altering one's mood and behavior), especially when one side effect of the amphetamines is lack of control over behavior and impulses.
Mike in Delray:
1.) And don't go all racist on me, It's a serious question. To all those that claim no bruising on Trayvon's knuckles....If someone gets in a few good punches and less than a minute later gets shot and dies and there is no longer any blood pressure....do bruises still form ???
No they do not. Lividity will cause blood to pool in the lowermstportions of th body but bruises do not form on hands after death..
Father and girlfriend were out to dinner that night, leaving Martin to babysit girlfriend's younger son Chad. Reportedly they were watching a basketball game, Chad (girlfriend's son, 13 years old) wanted candy, Martin went to buy and never came home.
One might also argue that as Martin and his father were previous regular visitors to the complex, neighborhood watch should have known that they were approved visitors to the gated community.
shuklack;
Excellent. Well said.
I agree, both parties were at fault here, but Zimmerman, as the adult, had the greater responsibility to retreat from confrontation without escalating or exacerbating the situation. Now, one could argue that due to his currently being under psychiatric care and being treated with psychotropic drugs, he was not responsible for poor decision making, in which case his psychiatrist should also be faulted for allowing someone to carry a weapon who was incapable of making good decisions while carrying it.
Dennis says:
December 4, 2012
I uploaded a graphic showing the doctored photo and the real photo side by side for a rough size approximation. Just look at how swollen and huge his nose is while he is sitting in the police car. Then look at the photo of him at the police station after he was cleaned up. His nose is the normal size.
click> http://tinypic.com/r/nycxax/6
Amanda,
You made some very valid points, though I am at a loss as to what Trayvon did that was wrong? Since we don't have all the evidence, I can't answer that question either.
What the evidence that has been released so far tells me is; Zimmerman sees youth in hoody, no information at that point as to what race he is, or sex for that matter, though sex may have been obvious. Calls 911, as he should, to report a suspicious individual and is told the police are on their way and should arrive in approximately 3 minutes. He is further instructed, as he starts to leave the car, NOT to leave his car, the police are on their way.
Zimmerman confronts Martin, as witnessed over the phone by Trayvon's girlfriend, asks what Trayvon is doing in the neighborhood, without identifying himself, or what his role was.
Now, we don't know what happened after Martin ended the conversation with his girlfriend, but, and a HUGE BUT it is, Zimmerman had no right or responsibility to confront Martin, even as a neighborhood watch representative. He had already called 911, his role ended there.
ANYTHING beyond that point was purely Zimmerman's responsibility since he had taken matters in his own hands. There is NO self-defense here, since he was an active aggressor.
I am making NO suppositions, or adding anything that has not already been made public. There may be additional evidence none of us have seen that might make a small difference in the situation, but Zimmerman made his bed and Martin ended up dying in it. A few bumps and bruises don't justify deadly force, especially since Zimmerman was NOT in his own home, yard or acting in any role that would allow for carrying a weapon or using it.
Amanda - Please tell me exactly when and where I will need to defend myself for the rest of my life!!! Otherwise, statements such as "one wonders why he would need to take a gun to Target" make absolutely ZERO sense. No "one" that understands crap happens when you least expect would ask such a baseless question.
Mil Man,
You might not be making suppositions but you leave out numerous possibilities and incorrectly identify others. You do not need a "role" to carry a concealed weapon - unless you mean the "role' of a U.S. citizen (of course by jumping through numerous bureaucratic hoops first) - and you do not need to be in your home to defend yourself. he never called 911, he used the non-emergency line. they did not instruct him to stay in the car, but rather a much more ambiguious "we do not need you to do that" Now let me ask you this - If you wife, mother, other-half (whatever) tells you "you don't need to do the dishes" you are probably going to do them anyway, right? You also forgot the point where the police, in a separate part of the conversation, asked him if he could provide updated information on the potential trespasser, kind of hard to do if they didn't expect you to maintain contact. Your description of confronting the trespasser is vague - and I believe intentionally so - in that it not so subltly incrimintates the wrong guy. please get the facts and assumptions straight before weighing in.
Military Man:
Martin should not have turned and confronted the person following him, but headed straight for a neighbor's, knocked on the door, and informed them he had a guy following him. This is what I instruct my children to do if they are ever in trouble--and I live in a zip code with 70 registered child sex offenders in it and my children boys, 10 and 9, walk home from school.
Alternatively he could have hung up the call with his girlfriend and called the police to say there was someone following him for an unknown reason.
all of those, however, are mistakes made by a kid walking alone in the dark. A kid whose brain has not fully developed and is not capable of making sound rational judgments. Hence the greater fault lies with Zimmerman.
Oh, I understand crap happens when you least expect it.
Two weeks after I graduated high school I was detained for being undocumented when USCIS found out they lost my adoption paper. I couldn't give them a copy of the paper because I'd never even known I was adopted--my parents never told me before they passed away in a car accident. I spent three years in a deportation camp trying to find out where the adoption had been filed, three years that I had been looking forward to spending in art college training for a career as a police sketch artist.
I live in an inner city municipality with 70 registered sex offenders in my zip code. My neighborhood is neutral ground between five different gang territories. I used to work nights at the local 7-11. I take public transportation or my bicycle to work, from work, and wherever else I need to go.
I have been threatened by gang members. I have been hit by a car while on my bicycle and have two plates in the right side of my face. I was targeted by a registered sex offender who thought I was a child and grabbed my privates from behind--he ended up doing eight months in jail when this 'child' turned and chased him down the road (ignoring 911 requests to stop pursuing him, and I didn't stop till the cops caught up with us.) I broke my elbow taking my son roller skating earlier this year. I had a stoner try to break into my house a couple years back--I held him at sword point until the police got there.) I watched a guy get stabbed on the bus I was riding earlier this fall (and was the only one who called the police on a bus of 18 people.)
I have a firearm and have never felt the need to even take it out. And I'm a five foot little Asian chick with coke-bottle glasses living in one of the worst neighborhoods in the south side of the city. If someone like me living in a gang-ridden neighborhood and riding violent public transit has never felt threatened enough to carry any kind of weapon, then why does Zimmerman, full-grown adult male from an upper-class neighborhood and with his own personal transportation, feel the need to take a gun with him wherever he goes?
I'd hate to know how he'd handle living in my neighborhood.
Gravity effects things that are in the process. My only advice is, punch yourself a few times, until your face is bloody and then time the action that fits into the time frame between the engagement and the time police got there, relate to how fast the blood flows to not just gravity. but air moisture, normal human behavior not aware they are bloody and feeling wetness on their own faces...etc...stop continuing to grasp at straws to force the legal system to attack a man that is guilty of manslaughter and not a cold blooded murder, unlike the gang members that have murdered 2000+ men, women and children in Chicago since Trayvon was killed.
Yea there is a ton of support for your allegations. Would you share just one of them with us?
The blood on the back of George's head should have been smudged if he indeed had been on the bottom during the fight.
Witness 18 says that heavier man was on top = George was on top.
He was on top after the shot to hold him down from fear of retaliation. He didn't know the extent of the gunshot damage.
Yeah. Anybody who had just shot someone in the chest at point blank range with a 9mm round would be afraid of retaliation... or maybe that's just you, gdimatt.
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George knew how to do things properly. Before the night of Februay 26, George always waited until he saw a burglary in progress.
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But, the night of February 26, it seem to me, that he revealed to the dispatcher his motive AND his mission..........."These a$$h@les, they always get away." He told the dispatcher in a quiet tone that indicated that the current system is flawed because they ALWAYS get away. The implication was that he would do things differently.
HOW DIFFERENTLY was vividly demonstrated by George's action that night.
@you all have thoughtful comments and the bruising on martins hands from punching? Explain those now. How about explain no marks except the hands and bullet wound on martin?
There was no bruising on Trayvon's hands and none of George's blood on Trayvon's hands--
yahtc - 2 other EYEWITNESSES positively identified Trayvon as being on top during the altercation please with this witness 18 person who couldnt see anything at all and thats your smoking gun? Done with you....
Both of those witnesses have changed their stories.
This is a 50/50 at fault altercation where one is dead. No way the Florida booby legal system can convict GZ beyond a reasonble DOUBT as dead men tell no tales. When the verdict comes in don't burn down your own hood.
dan, people do tend to roll around during a physical altercation that has gone to the ground.
You do realize that the pics used at first are very old pics of both men, and TM was actually bigger than GZ. He had quite a few inches on GZ and the weight difference was negligible, so #18 could have been describing TM not GZ.
The injuries that TM's family and their lawyers denied existing until the photos showing those injuries came out prove 100% it was self defense on the part of GZ protection himself from a bigger attacker TM.
TM just made the mistake of attacking someone who was armed, unlike the bus drive he attacked before this, the one that he bragged about on is FB and Twitter accounts, sorry he was just another thug, race isn't an issue, thug is thug period.
Robbob writes
Here is what Witness 18 told Ashley Banfield on CNN
Witness 18 also says this to Ashley Banfield in that interview--
Looks like Trayvon punched pretty hard for a 9 year old.
Some people want to believe that George Zimmerman is some kind of monster, to me he's just a good guy who was (over)protective of his neighborhood, he's no murderer and no cold blood killer either, he was trying to keep an eye on the guy until the police gets there (and no its not the same as initiating a physical confrontation). And Trayvon Martin, if he was so scared because "a weird guy" was following him, should have gone home directly instead of taking his time, and he should have called 911 too as Zimmerman did instead of staying on the phone with the girlfriend, who by the way, didn't bother calling 911 either.
I will say this plainly; I do believe that Trayvon Martin is the one who initiated the physical confrontation, and I think the evidence shows that pretty well.
And the one who said "those are not life threatening wounds"; what would you like to see in the picture? an eye out of the socket and half his head gone or what? How long was he supposed to let Trayvon Martin punch him before defending himself.
How strange to see negative comments whenever an actor (or known person) is being followed by journalists and gets tired of it and punches one of them, this actor becomes the bad guy ... but its ok for everyone else to jump on someone if they think that person is following them.
Personally if I thought someone was following me I would call 911 asap, and try to get home asap too.
There is no legal requirement for life threatening wounds for SYG nor for a self defense argument. You only need to have a rational fear for your life.
You do realize TM was not a young boy right, those were propaganda photos his parents and their lawyers put out, more like flooded the media with, they hid his current photos for months trying to build a case in the media. Which just adds to the fact that they waited 6 weeks after his death before their media blitz, and went to great lengths to cover up his real identity (FB, twitter and school records) like they had something to hide, which was the huge fact he was a THUG.
Secondly you do realize that the sounds of peoples voices are not 100% based on age right? Haven't you ever heard a young kid or woman with a deep voice or a grown man with a high pitched voice, if not get out and go talk to people you may be surprised. Added that it was a stressed situation both of their voices could have been very different than normal. Plus when first asked TM's father admitted it was not his son's voice on the 911 tape, after the lawyers got involved he changed his story, funny how that works.
As to actual size difference, TM was larger than GZ by 5 inches and only 10lb. lighter than GZ, and the witness who was closest clearly stated TM was on top attacking GZ who was the one calling out for help. This was from the witness who's window was right next to the attack, so much closer than your W#18.
Lets not forget all the media manipulation done by his family, their lawyers, and the lame stream media ABC, NBC, CBS, you know edited tapes and enhanced-reenhanced recordings, great way to charge the lefts base with a none story, you know damn well if GZ was black this would have never made national news.
and before you flame me, I don't watch any TV and that includes FOX, I'm multicultural as in mixed race.
The real crime here is how is parents, their lawyers, Al and Jess and local state and FEDERAL politicians have tried to profit from his death, and they all have in one way or the other, his parents will most likely never have to work again.
In his statements, George constantly changed his story. Why did he do this?
theotherguy,
Perhaps you should post the Florida statute talking about use of force by an aggressor, and the requirements for someone to attempt to withdraw from the situation prior to using deadly force. Zimmerman pursued Martin with a loaded gun, that alone makes him the aggressor. He was the adult, and the armed gun owner. He has the burden of attempting to flee and/or disarm the situation before using deadly force. Obviously, he took a punch to the nose, and fired. This would not meet his due burden. THis is my opinion, and I think this is what the prosecution will prove in court.
you all have thoughtful comments
For the past 9 months you have changed your theory of what happened... why did you do that?
Trust verify,
I am curious, not that I'm trying to convict Zimmerman, since I'm not on the jury, and would have not been an unbiased jurist if I was. Why are you so sure that Zimmerman was within his pervue to confront Martin, and be exempt from accountability for shooting him?
It has been proven that Zimmerman overstepped his responsibilities, confronted Martin without cause and persued him...he was informed that the actual police were on their way. There is NO confusing those basic facts.
There are NO pictures of Trayvon that portray him as a Thug. There were two profiles on Facebook, the one that was open to the public was OBVIOUSLY NOT the Trayvon Martin who Zimmerman shot. Though both are from Florida, the profile of the Trayvon who was shot was only open to his friends, and pictured the same kid everyone has been seeing in the photos that have been released, (I looked at both profiles two days after the shooting) if maybe a year or two older, wearing a striped shirt and ball cap. NO gang tatts, no gang signs, nothing like is pictured on the other profile that pictures another individual wearing a wife-beater and is tattood nearly from head to foot. Anyone with eyes in their head can see that guy is about 5'8" and weighs close to 200 lbs and is also about 5 years older than the Trayvon who was shot.
In plain terms, Zimmerman overstepped his bounds and Trayvon paid the price. Zimmerman is NOT guilty of racism, or murder. He is guilty of reckless homicide, and most importantly; STUPIDITY.
Chris - You should stay in Cincy -
In Florida, there is no burden to flee or to attempt to disarm the situation. If you determine your life is at stake, you act accordingly. No quibbling, ducking, running or calls to your mother are required.
Robbob writes
Here is what Witness 18 told Ashley Banfield on CNN
Click> Zimmerman's Gravity --
All the blood on George's head ran down which indicates he could not have been on the bottom with Trayvon on top. If George had been on the bottom the blood would have been smudged and smeared and not in the trickle lines seen in this video.
Dennis says:
December 4, 2012
I uploaded a graphic showing the doctored photo and the real photo side by side for a rough size approximation. Just look at how swollen and huge his nose is while he is sitting in the police car. Then look at the photo of him at the police station after he was cleaned up. His nose is the normal size. Swelling magically gone..poof.
click> http://tinypic.com/r/nycxax/6
Some people want to believe that George Zimmerman is some kind of monster, to me he's just a good guy who was (over)protective of his neighborhood, he's no murderer and no cold blood killer either, he was trying to keep an eye on the guy until the police gets there (and no its not the same as initiating a physical confrontation). And Trayvon Martin, if he was so scared because "a weird guy" was following him, should have gone home directly instead of taking his time, and he should have called 911 too as Zimmerman did instead of staying on the phone with the girlfriend, who by the way, didn't bother calling 911 either.
Sorry, trying to keep an eye on someone does not include pursuing them when they attempt to get away from some stranger following them in their vehicle for no apparent reason. Once he got out of his vehicle and chased him, he was actively pursuing him. There is also proof that he not only followed and pursued him but that he spoke to him. If he is such a good guy who was only keeping an eye on TM until the police arrived why did he not identify himself as the neighborhood watch TM asked him why he was following him instead of just demanding to know what TM was doing in the neighborhood? Why would he take his gun with him when pursuing TM if he was just a good guy keeping an eye on TM until the police arrived?
I will say this plainly; I do believe that Trayvon Martin is the one who initiated the physical confrontation, and I think the evidence shows that pretty well.
The only thing that the evidence shows is that there was an altercation. It in no way shows that TM initiated that physical confrontation. That picture only proves that GZ had a bloody nose, not how he got it or whether it was what initiated the altercation.
And the one who said "those are not life threatening wounds"; what would you like to see in the picture? an eye out of the socket and half his head gone or what? How long was he supposed to let Trayvon Martin punch him before defending himself.
It is called equal force. You get punched in the nose, you don't defend yourself by shooting someone. GZ has a bloody nose and superficial cuts to the back of his head. Really if there was an altercation why are there no injuries except a GSW to TM? Is he really claiming that TM overpowered him to the point that he couldn't fight back but he was able to reach his gun and shoot TM point blank in his chest? That whole story leaves a lot to be desired.
How strange to see negative comments whenever an actor (or known person) is being followed by journalists and gets tired of it and punches one of them, this actor becomes the bad guy ... but its ok for everyone else to jump on someone if they think that person is following them.
Actually, I believe that if a journalist gets too aggressive, then the actor (or known person) has every right to defend themselves. But then I have absolutely no interest in keeping tabs on the lives of famous people. The reason that it is allowed is because the public thinks that they have a right to know everything that goes on in the lives of the rich and famous. Actually, they only have the rights that are afforded them by the rich and famous. It is the publics need to know that promotes that type of behavior by the press.
Personally if I thought someone was following me I would call 911 asap, and try to get home asap too.
Personally if I thought someone was following me, I would call 911 but I would in no way lead them to my home. Do you really want some crazy stranger that is following you for no apparent reason to know where you live?
I have noticed that many people commenting in support of George have not heard his statements. Therefore, I am going to post them here---If you actually make the effort to listen to his statements you will find them full of lies. I recommend that you listen to this one first--
CLICK> Audio Recorded Interview with Investigator Serino on February 29 (Part 3)
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George Zimmerman Reenacts Shooting of Treyvon Martin for Police at Crime Scene ....Part 1
George Zimmerman Reenacts Shooting of Treyvon Martin for Police at Crime Scene (Part 2)
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Audio Recorded Statement to Investigator Singleton on February 26 (Part 1)
Audio Recorded Statement to Investigator Singleton on February 26 (Part 2)
Audio Recorded Interview with Investigator Serino of Sanford Police Department on February 27 (1205 AM)
Audio Recorded Interview with Investigator Serino on February 29 (Part 1)
Audio Recorded Interview with Investigator Serino on February 29 (Part 2)
Audio Recorded Interview with Investigator Serino on February 29 (Part 3)
"But Trayvon was such a good kid"
"Trayvon was starting to get his life back together"
"Trayvon wouldn't hurt somebody without being provoked"
Let's cut to the chase: Trayvon was a thug. Trayvon was a bully. Trayvon attacked George Zimmerman and started beating the #$@% out GZ for no other reason than because George appeared to be following him. FYI, following somebody is NOT a crime. Why not walk away? Why not find a phone and call the police to tell them there is a suspicious person that appears to be following him? No that doesn't work for a thug. It is a shame Trayvon was killed but was his own fault.
He should not have approached GZ as GZ was going back to his truck. But that is a thug for you. No questions first - just violence. And unfortunately was shot but nobody to blame for Trayvon's death but Trayvon.
Amazing at the number of people even AFTER further evidence shows GZ was attacked they STILL try to justify Trayvon beating him. Doctored photo? Really? The police took a picture of GZ while in the squad car for reference and documentation.
Then some fool above says "blood is flowing down" which somehow proves GZ was NOT on the bottom. Umm, excuse me - GZ has been detained, handcuffed, and placed in the back of a squad car probably to secure the area until the initial determination of what happened. Nose is still bleeding but GZ forced to sit in an upright position due to being handcuffed and detained. Blood DOES flow down when forced to stay in a sitting position while the nose is still bleeding.
Regardless, as more and more evidence comes out it is funny to see others scrambling to TRY and find continued support for Trayvon.
Trayvon was a thug and a bully. It's a shame he was shot but unfortunately Trayvon was completely responsible for his own death.
Military Man-1740371
Please provide evidence that George confronted Trayvon. Even the prosecution has stated there is NO evidence as to who confronted whom. We have "deedee" stating that Trayvon spoke to George first.. words to the effect of why are you following me.
Define accountability on shooting. What we have is two individuals with chips on their shoulders and testosterone in their veins with preconceived notions about each other. When the street fight ensued George could reasonably believe that he was in danger of imminent sever bodily injury. He did NOT have the option to retreat.. Witnesses place Trayvon on top and George on the bottom.
WHAT exactly has been proven? George saw a stranger in a friends yard. That friends home had been the target of a crime in the past few weeks. That was enough to make that stranger appear suspicious. Please define the EXACT responsibilities that George overstepped. Before you state neighborhood watch provide EVIDENCE that he was acting in the capacity of NW and not a concerned citizen.
He was informed that police would be dispatched. No specific time.( I've waited as long as two hours for an officer to arrive when a mionr with a gun was involved) The verbal agreement was that WHEN the officer arrived he would contact George on his phone. While George may have followed Trayvon to a point that following had ceased PRIOR to the end of the call with the dispatcher. BOTH George and Trayvon had lost sight of each other. That ENDED the situation. Within the next 2 minutes however they encountered each other at or near the T in the sidewalk. the question arises as to how Trayvon, who had already moved towards "home" from that T arrived BACK at the T at the same time as George.
yahtc
You keep going back to W18, one HUGE problem, the witness who's window this happened right outside of ie the closest witness to what happened very CLEARLY STATED IT WAS TM ATTACKING GZ WHILE ON TOP OF HIM AND GZ WAS THE ONE CALLING OUT FOR HELP.
Bubby I hate to break it to you but your backing of W18 is a loosing one every time, because they have a witness who was way way closer and had a MUCH MUCH clearer view than W18. End of story, TM was attacking GZ who feared for his life and did what he was very legally entitled to do- defend himself period.
You are referring to Witness 6 who has lost his credibility.
Donna P-2692688
He was keeping an eye on him like I said, I don't believe he had any intention to actually confront him.
He spoke to him because they ran into each other.
Because he didn't know if Trayvon Martin had bad intentions or not, so confronting him by saying "I'm a neighborhood watcher" was not a good idea. You don't know if the guy intends to commit a burglary (or whatever else), you don't know if he's a good or bad guy, but you would tell him you're a neighborhood watcher (and also that you just called the cops)?
Because he was carrying a gun for self-defense, what is the point of having a permit to carry if you don't carry? and how is that gun going to help you defend yourself if its in your house or your car (while you are not in the car nor the house).
Yes it does. Trayvon Martin didn't get punched, George Zimmerman did, its pretty obvious which one assaulted the other. Also GZ knew the cops were on their way, TM didn't. GZ knew the law, I don't think he would have wanted to get caught assaulting someone. Also when you intend to kill someone usually you don't call 911 before doing so.
No obviously its not called "equal force", if it had been equal force GZ would have kicked TM's a** and the fight would have been over with. He was overpowered. And it may not be as easy as you think to actually aim when you are getting beaten. He was obviously not running around trying to kill people, he was watching the neighborhood. He called 911 many times (so did the neighbors as everybody was worried) after all the burglaries they had during the previous month, and when asked to approach a guy he refused (he said himself he didn't want to approach him). In other words if his intention had been to kill someone he had many chances to do so. And sorry but if a guy started punching me in the nose like that I would definitely try to use my gun to defend myself.
If a crazy stranger followed me home he would meet my husband and my son, and their guns, and would be advised to stand still until the cops arrive. He would also get picked up nicely by said cops which I would have called on the way home. But you're right its much better to lead the crazy stranger to a neighbor's house or whatever else you can think of. Granted if there was a store or restaurant on the way I would get in there asap as well.
You are dumber than a box of rocks, no balls & all strikes wimpo. Take your limp wrist to a Male Impersonator room Coward.
fron Axiom Amnesia (just click any link below to open)
Evidence Photos
FDLE Neighborhood Photos
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The picture looks doctored (photo shopped).
@Anna TM was wondering who was this caucasian older man; is he a pedophile, a thief/robber, kidnapper. TM has never seen him in the neighborhood before and TM lives there. It ended up TM hunch may have been right this older Caucasian man was up to no good; George Zimmerman is a murderer.
maria-7403121
You can take that up with the FDLE and special prosecutor.. it is THEIR EVIDENCE
Actually "deedee" claims TM described him as a creepy man.. No race at all.. and George is Hispanic/Peruvian and Black descent. Go figure.
George is a killer, the justice system has yet to determine if it was justified self defense or not.
It appears George was correct that this suspicious person was up to no good as he assaulted and battered George.. there is no question on that part.
yes, Trayvon had the right to stand his ground. Zimmerman also had a right, especially being neighborhood watch. Trayvon did not have the right to become violent. i am white, and have been stopped and confronted while walking around neighborhoods where i am not familiar to residents. it is perfectly normal, and well within the rights of the residents of the neighborhood. i said yes sir, no sir, thank you sir, and here i am still alive.
maria-7403121
Actually Maria TM didn't live there, he was there for a few days (or weeks), living at his father's girlfriend's house, because he had been kicked out of school for vandalism (or something like that). And if you were worried about a man following you, would you call 911 and try to get somewhere safe asap, or would you take your sweet time and then confront the man? I would call 911 and try to get somewhere safe asap personally.
Rachael says:
December 4, 2012 at 3:26 am
I don’t know anything about this stuff – but here is a comment I found:
This is what fotoforensics software revealed when it analyzed the image taken directly from the GZ attorneys site- that it was edited with GIMP photoediting…BUSTED!
File
File Type JPEG
MIME Type image/jpeg
Exif Byte Order Big-endian (Motorola, MM)
Image Width 650
Image Height 870
Encoding Process Progressive DCT, Huffman coding
Bits Per Sample 8
Color Components 3
Y Cb Cr Sub Sampling YCbCr4:4:4 (1 1)
JFIF
JFIF Version 1.01
EXIF
Make Apple
Camera Model Name iPhone 4
Orientation Horizontal (normal)
X Resolution 72
Y Resolution 72
Resolution Unit inches
Software GIMP 2.8.2
Modify Date 2012:12:03 09:10:06
Y Cb Cr Positioning Centered
Exposure Time 1/15
F Number 2.8
Exposure Program Program AE
ISO 160
Exif Version 0221
Date/Time Original 2012:02:26 19:31:00
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2012/12/03/george-zimmermans-bloody-nose/
The thing that bothers me most about this whole thing is Rick Scott has virtually forced me to do something I haven't done since maturing....voting for a democrat. Here is a man who defends himself (as he has the right to do so) and because of political pressure Scott doesn't have the testicles to withstand the heat therefore causing Mr. Zimmerman untold anguish, expense and threats. Not only did he cost the Chief of Police his job and the department officers harm to their reputation while "investigating" the actions this street thug carried out against Mr. Zimmerman. It's a shame when our neighborhoods are so unsafe this becomes necessary but they obviously have. Good work Mr. Zimmerman. Thanks for taking out one thief/drug dealer. I hope you are out soon and can take out a few more. As to Mr. Scott I plan to give your political career the same due diligence you gave the police departments officers, chief and legal counsel the only thing missing will be the appointment of a special prosecutor directed to find something wrong to hang you out with. But rest assured I will spread the word as it relates to my perception of your lack of political fortitude.
I hope Mr. Zimmerman is able to enjoy Christmas with his family.
Amazing how many racists post on here...although I find it unlikely that statments such as this would be made in person.
Trayvon Martin is a: thug; thief; drug dealer.
How do we know this?
He was wearing a hoodie.
Where is the racist comments............or is that something you blurt out due to your logical thinking ability
Click> Zimmerman's Gravity --
All the blood on George's head ran down which indicates he could not have been on the bottom with Trayvon on top. If George had been on the bottom the blood would have been smudged and smeared and not in the trickle lines seen in this video.
you all have thoughtful comments-Your earlier comment-(All the blood on George's head ran down which indicates he could not have been on the bottom...) is inaccurate and illogical, easily disproved by anyone.
Actually if you are laying down when punched and your nose is bleeding, the blood will go backwards down into your sinus cavities and into your throat, not upwards and outwards, down your chin. Try laying down on the floor. Your nostrils are higher then the very top of the bridge of your nose by your eyes.Also notice the smeared blood going down the side.Coagulated blood is often spit out from the mouth as well from a broken nose.
@ you
I have performed Crime Scene Investigations, not played one on a blog, and You cannot be serious about you statement or your theory. In other words you don't have a clue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chief - No this person must somehow be on the prosecution team every time a TM/Zimmerman post comes they say the same crap over and over like somehow this time its true. They have NO idea how things work in the real work apparently. Where is the "how come there was no blood all over the place" forgetting it was a major heart artery shot and he had 2 layers of clothing over it...
You had better take a look at this then--
click> A Few Questions For A Lead Investigator
GZ has profound visible defensive injuries that are consistent with being suddenly asassaulted without warning. TM has scraped / cut knuckled and a bullet wound in the chest, nothing else. Ballistics has proven that the bullet was fired at greater between six inchs and less then three feet.
Between those facts it's a pretty solid self defense case.
TM had to of inflicted those injuries on GZ prior to death, TM did not sustain any injuries during that time, TM was killed at close range (approximately arm reach or just outside of).
If GZ had put up any fight at all, or had seen TM approaching then TM would of had some sort of bruising on the arms, legs, chest or facial area. The death shortly thereafter would of ensured those injuries didn't heal and would be detected during autopsy. As the autopsy didn't find any of those injuries then we must conclude that GZ never hit TM. We must also conclude that TM hit GZ and that GZ shot TM after being hit.
That's text book self defense which is legal in Florida. Therefor GZ did not commit manslaughter or negligent homicide, much less 2nd degree murder.
No wonder the DA didn't prosecute, no way this would hold up in a trial.
Profound visable defensive injuries? LMAO! He doesn't have any defensive injuries at all, unless he thought it was a good idea to try to block what he has called "repeated blows" with his face. If so, he is even more of an eejit that he appears on the surface.
the otherguy, Zimmerman appears to have been punched in the nose. That is not an injury (singular) that is consistant with being "suddenly asassaulted without warning." Martin also did not have cut, scraped, or bruised knuckles.
Zimmerman may not have landed a punch, but that does not mean Zimmerman may not have tried to grab or strike Martin.
If Zimmerman had let the police do their job and not tried to follow a kid doing a whole lot of nothing, this would not have happened.
Both of you are waffling around.
Two black eyes, broken nose and cranial lacerations are the recorded injuries to GZ. Those are consistent with being attacked. Normally you find that two people how having been in an altercation will both have them regardless of who "won". They typically include black eyes, broken noses, scraps and bruises along fore arms, chest, face, shoulders and sometimes the upper back region.
Face it guys, there is no evidence that GZ hit or did anything to TM prior to pulling a gun. There is a preponderance of evidence that TM did hit and attack GZ prior to being shot.
You can waffle around the sides all you want but that above core is extremely solid. Unless either of you is saying that TM was secretly a marital arts master or a zombie?
No evidence of a broken nose. No evidence of black eyes. No cranial involvement, what so ever. Two small scalp lacerations needing no medical attention.
According to the EMT's from that night and Zimmerman's own doctor, Zimmerman had one one centimeter laceration and one two centimeter laceration on the back of his head. There was no bruising or swelling. The night of the incident, they EMT placed a band-aid on the lacerations. By the next day, Zimmerman's doctor said the cuts had begun to heal. The EMT reported a "bloody" nose. No report of swelling. The next day, Zimmerman's doctor said there was minimal swelling and referred Zimmerman to an ear/nose/throat specialist. Zimmerman refused to go. The doctor saw no need for x-rays to confirm a broken nose. Both the EMT and Zimmerman's doctor reported no black eyes.
All this proves is that Zimmerman may have been punched once. There is no proof Zimmerman was attacked by surprise or without provication. We do not know what transpired to have made that occur. Zimmerman could have also tripped and fallen on his face. Those injuries would support that too.
*Cough*
Above photo. nuff said
Doctors reports are already in, you can continue on denying them all you want.
Honestly if we're at the point in the discussion where you two are willing to alter facts to fit your preconceived version of events then there is nothing else that can be discussed. You'll continue to alter facts all the up to the trial, during the trial then after this acquittal you'll cry that
revengejustice wasn't served.I used the EMT's report and Zimmerman's own doctor's report. It's in the evidence which you clearly haven't or refuse to read.
What other doctors' reports are you speaking of?
You have read neither.
His doctor report was two black eyes and broken nose. Though due to the general ignorance people think your nose is made of bone and not cartridge so they tend to read those reports wrong. Lacerations on back of head were also on the report. EMT's reported the same thing, nothing severe just the typical injuries sustained in a scuffle.
Now as you've clearly demonstrated how biased and unwilling you are I'm placing you on ignore.
Yes, the doctor's report did say he had black eyes. My mistake. I had forgotten that part. He also says he suspects a "closed fracture" of the nose, but I am still correct. There was no x-ray to confirm. Part of the nose is bone, which can be broken. Doctors do not say you have a broken nose if only cartilage is crushed.
I'm arguing my point using facts and how I see them. That is the purpose of this comment board. If I am too much for you, by all means, put me on ignore.
Misscreant
So now you are a DR and speak for them all? You do realize that the person writing up the medical report was a PA. I believe the report indicated the nose MAY be broken.
Nose Parts
The nose has two holes called nostrils. The nostrils and the nasal passages are separated by a wall called the septum (say: sep-tum). Deep inside your nose, close to your skull, your septum is made of very thin pieces of bone.
Most people with a "broken" nose only have the cartilage damaged. Rarely are the actual bones broken.
And those who disagree are doing the same.. Both sides are entitled to their opinion. Why is it that when those whom you and other Martin proponents disagree with express their opinion they are "liars" or "racists" and yours and theirs are GOSPEL?
Who cares about the nose? All it says is that at some point in the altercation, Zimmerman got punched. It does not address the factors that caused the confrontation in the first place. It says nothing about the fact that Zimmerman pursued Martin with a loaded weapon, which was the catalyst of the entire altercation. It is undisputable that had Zimmerman not pursued Martin and just waited for the police, there would not have been an altercation at all. At the end of the day, Martin is dead. Zimmerman initiated the contact. Anything that occurred between those two events is speculation and needs to be validated by comparing the physical evidence with the story of Zimmerman. I still firmly believe that by pursuing Martin, Zimmerman became the aggressor of the situation, and he has the burden of attempting to diffuse the situation, rather than escalate it. No matter what, he took a life. Of that he is guilty, and he needs to prove his innocence. Remember that Martin deserves to be innocent until proven guilty also.
Too bad for George that the jury will learn that Trayvon’s body was found 30 feet from the location that George pointed out as being where he shot Trayvon because his head was being pounded on the concrete.
If anybody thinks they can convince a jury that Martin didnt cause the injuries to Zimmerman, be my guest.
Dennis says:
December 4, 2012
I uploaded a graphic showing the doctored photo and the real photo side by side for a rough size approximation. Just look at how swollen and huge his nose is while he is sitting in the police car. Then look at the photo of him at the police station after he was cleaned up. His nose is the normal size. Swelling magically gone..poof.
click> http://tinypic.com/r/nycxax/6
Steve, Theotherguy,
No one should care whether Martin caused the injuries, he was CONFRONTED by someone who failed to identify themself and had NO right to confront him to begin with. That's ALL that matters.
The police were on their way, Zimmerman knew that, yet HE decide to follow Martin without probable cause, after being instructed not to. What happened beyond that is irrellevent.
Based on the "facts" above, there is NO arguement for "Stand your ground". Zimmerman was wrong, wrong to pursue Martin, and wrong to confront him. If there is a case of self defense it is on Martin's part.
Trust_Verify, I have never called anyone a racist or a liar in these forums. Go ahead and check. I disagree with people, but I do not stoop to name calling. You, however, without knowing my background, education or experience, attempt to insult my intelligence by posting the most simplistic explanation of the nose you could find. That was unnecessary. You could have disagreed with me without that.
Misscreant
KISS principle applies. I agree I don't know your background.. THAT particular explanation was near the top of the list and straight forward so that no matter who read it they could understand.
would this be as clear ?http://education.yahoo.com/reference/gray/subjects/subject/37 it doesn't even mention cartilage.
Military Man
Now all you have to do is prove that Martin was confronted, and you cant. Which law is it that says Zimmerman had a duty to identify himself anymore than Martin had a duty to identify himself? What matters is who the jury believes threw that first punch, want to bet they pick Martin.
"he was CONFRONTED by someone who failed to identify themself and had NO right to confront him to begin with. That's ALL that matters."
============
i will add to that, not only can you not prove who confronted who, you also cannot prove whether he did in fact identify himself. if Zimmerman did confront him, he did have a right to, you can go up to anyone you want and talk to them that is not illegal. what is illegal is punching someone in the face. Trayvon could (should) have just turned and walked away, or called the police. those are the people who handle things like that
He went to his doctor and they never did X-rays. So how will they prove a broken noise without x-rays.
Actually most broken noses are diagnosed without an X-ray, they palpate the nose and if it feels crunchy it's broke, also it's based on the amount of deformity, GZ nose is most definitely broke just looking at the photo.
The human nose is mostly cartilage not that hard to break.
I love the attitude by so many that Zimmerman should have let the high school football player pummel zimmerman until he was unconcious or dead.
I love the attitude by so many that Martin should have allowed a stranger who quite possibly may have been carrying a concealed handgun to stalk him indefinitely in his own neighborhood while he walked home from the store and just wait for Zimmerman to shoot him.
I really don't like how people belive that Zimmerman was incapable of staying in his vehicle, when his life was not being threatened by someone out walking in the rain. In my neck of the woods, if Zimmerman had gotten out of his truck and chased someone, that someone would have shot him first.
ElkMeadow: - ? You know, I think we live in the same town.....
Mr. Zimmerman took the law into his own hands, regardless of what the police told him to do when he called them. They said "Don't do anything. Wait for us." Mr. Martin did not have a weapon and was making no offensive gestures and no attempt to break-in a home or assault anyone. So why is it Mr. Zimmerman approached Mr. Martin, as he had been directed not to do so by valid authority, and proceeded to shoot him to death?
@you all have thoughtful comments so you mean he did get blood under his fingernails, so what? He had bruises on knuckles. It is not hard to slam a head into ground and not get dirty.
CincyJoe37 - following someone is not the same thing as stalking. It is not illegal to follow someone. The question is who threw the first punch? That is the person who is at fault. Using your logic I woudl be free to attack anyone for looking at me funny because he/she might have a weapon and want to do me harm. Zimmerman wsa doing nothing wrong by simply following and watching. If Zimmerman approached and attacked Martin then he deserves whatever he gets, but if Martin attacked Zimmerman simply because he was beign followed then Martin was at fault. If you can remove yourself from the situation to prevent violence that is what you should. Martin could have easily continued to his Father's house and then called the police. or he could have stopped talkign to his girlfriend and called the police, or he could have told his girlfriend to call the police. During his call to the police Zimmerman mentions that he lost track of Martin and was on his way back to the truck. Did Zimmerman "reacquire" the whereabouts of Martin while on his way back to his truck or did Martin double back and attack Zimmerman? Logic says that the latter is what happened and if that's the case than Martin caused his own death, not Zimmerman. On the surface I think Zimmerman is innocent but all of the evidence is not out there yet, which is apparent since the prosecution just released this picture 9 months after the incident. Makes you wonder what else they haven't produced yet and why.
getalife - Yes I believe he doubled back to attack him and I would not be surprised if it was at the prompting of the girl he was talking to on the phone. Sorry in a "gated" community your going to be "scared" because someone was following you and then not run home when you lose them or at the bare minimum hang up the phone with your "girlfriend" and call the police. BS. He wanted to show this guy a lesson because he idolized the "thug" life and was going to show off to "deedee" (which most young black kids do. This is just my opinion but wow look at worldstarhiphop as just one stellar example) and figured he would pound this sucker. Why is the question but anyone who can think GZ "found" him after losing him for 90 seconds is living in a dream world. Trayvon "found" GZ not the other way around. No other explanation I can think of...
If George Zimmerman had kept his wanna be a$$ in his vehicle, instead of chasing an unarmed kid from one side of the neighborhood to the other, there wouldn't be a picture of George with a bloody nose.
Yep - I still cannot understand for the life of me how these Zimbots don't think that Trayvon had the right to the SYG law. I guess only POS vigilantes have the right to invoke this law. Teenagers are just trash in their books. He!! DOCJT, you and I have both had worse injuries from falling off a freaking bike!!
No doubt. And this is nothing more than a cheap, under handed, low life tactic from the defense to try and get donations coming in again. Poor George is broke, and evidently, that offer to sell his autograph 3 days ago didn't get a response. Gotta rile the racists up again so they'll send their pennies to George so he can buy his Cheetos.
To everyone attempting to support TM here. Go read what the Chewbacca defense is because that's what your using.
Getting out of your vehicle, walking around, following someone, these are not against the law. They may not be intelligent things to do, they may even be rather foolish, yet they are not against the law. People are convicted for breaking the law not for being foolish, otherwise most of the posters here would be in jail.
Precedent has already been set that if you initiate or antagonize an altercation you forfeit SYG. If TM turned around and reengaged GZ then any defense TM would of had on SYG is gone. Further if TM initiated the contact via a violent means (aka jumped / assaulted) then TM would be guilty of assault. If GZ shot TM as a result of TM initiating the same assault then GZ would be entitled to a self defense plea along with SYG (they are two different things).
I'm sorry guys, no matter how much you want to crucify someone, no matter how high your emotions are running, it doesn't matter here. Not Guilty by reason of Self Defense has been around a very long time, many precedents and legal material on it. So prior to conviction their going to have to actually have a trial and go through evidence and he will walk into that court room as an Innocent man.
Looking over the injuries present on GZ and the complete lack of defensive injuries on TM, GZ has a very solid case for self defense. The prosecution isn't going to be able to remove reasonable doubt.
The Stand Your Ground law states you can meet force with force. Since there is no evidence that force was used against Martin (at least, not until he started punching), he is not entitled to Stand Your Ground.
SYG also states you cannot pursue someone and then claim SYG.
The keychain marks the location where George should have stayed. The fact that the keychain's light was still on is an extra gift to the prosecution. It was in use!
Trayvon's body was found a good 30+ feet south of that keychain. Trayvon was trying to escape toward home.
What did George do? George pursued Trayvon. No valid self defense there.
George should have gone in the opposite direction. Had everything gone north toward the T from the keychain, George might today have some chance at a self defense claim because north would have shown that George was attempting to retreat.
But....no. George was on the offense. He headed SOUTH of the keychain after Trayvon as Trayvon attempted to get away toward home. He just would not let go of Trayvon........he would not let Trayvon go home.
Being pinned to the ground and getting your nose broken is a pretty solid case for regular self defense. Zimmerman doesn't even need SYG.
That is George's story.
Trayvon's body was not found where George says he was pinned to the ground--Trayvon's body was found 30 feet south of that location!
Doesn't say that at all. Your now making stuff up to support your position.
You simply can not initiate the altercation, running around is not initiation. There is actual court precedents already on SYG and it's been defined pretty well.
The original judge was found to be prejudiced and removed. The one that replaced him has already ruled on SYG cases and it's pretty clear what does and does not constitute SYG. TM turning around and re-initiating contact invalidates any self defense that could be argued. This is court precedent.
As contact was broke off between TM and GZ (TM ran away) any attempts to characterize GZ's initial pursuit fail the legal test. Regardless of what anyone things GZ was doing, TM turning around and deciding to jump GZ instead of calling the police is what precipitated this entire mess. It's not illegal to walk around, run around or follow people in your car, it is illegal to attack people. It's also illegal to kill people, except in self defense which TM gave him the defense of.
Also forgot to mention that Self Defense and "Stand your Ground" are two completely separate things. SYG is just another law that states you don't have to first attempt escape before being legally allowed to respond with deadly force to a threat on your life. Typically "self defense" plea's require that the defendant must have first attempted to escape from the assailant prior to using deadly force. SYG was crafted to protect people from prosecution, both civilian and criminal, resulting from them defending themselves. It's similar to a mobile castle law. If someone approaches you and demands your money or they'll stab you with a knife, your allowed to shoot them dead without first having attempted to run away (and risk getting stabbed / killed in the process).
So not having SYG doesn't meaning not having a case for self defense.
theotherguy, you are flat out wrong on SYG.
776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
History.—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1190, ch. 97-102.
Section 2 does NOT say throws the first punch. It does NOT say anything about physical contact. It says PROVOKES the situation. The law is the law as written, not as you would like to interpret. Zimmerman provoked the situation by following and confronting Martin.
And as Trayvon had "lost" George there was no longer a provocation. That is until Trayvon spoke to George as supported by "deedee" in her sworn statement.
So Zimmerman followed Martin, Martin sees him and asks why he is following, and that immediately means that somehow he is provoking him? "Why are you following me?" is provocation? Deedee also says that she heard a scuffle, and there is no indication as to who started it. However, I maintain that Zimmerman was out of his car searching for and confronting Martin, which made him the aggressor of the situation. He had the burden of FLEEING from the situation to avoid deadly force. The evidence suggests that he made no attempt.
Let's also note, Trust, that you just confirmed that Zimmerman did in fact provoke the situation initially. Despite your attempt to shift the owner of the provocation, the entire situation began in the hands of Zimmerman. I'm glad you agree.
Even if you accept that Zimmerman initially provoked the situation, he still satisfies both sections 2a (he was reasonably in fear of his life and couldn't escape because Trayvon had him pinned) and 2b (Trayvon had gotten away, thus withdrawing from the inital conflict).
That's the law, as written, and not as you wish to interpret it.
George knew how to do things properly. Before the night of Februay 26, George always waited until he saw a burglary in progress.
.
But, the night of February 26, it seem to me, that he revealed to the dispatcher his motive AND his mission..........."These a$$h@les, they always get away." He told the dispatcher in a quiet tone that indicated that the current system is flawed because they ALWAYS get away. The implication was that he would do things differently.
HOW DIFFERENTLY was vividly demonstrated by George's action that night.
CincyJoe37
No one said that. If he was so scared or even just worried Martin should have called 911 (just like GZ did) instead of talking on the phone for God knows how long with his girlfriend, and the girlfriend should have called 911 as well, they would have told them the "weird guy" was a neighborhood watcher, and then none of this would have happened. He should have went home directly too instead of taking his time, especially if he was worried or scared of the "weird guy" who was following him.
I don't know about you, but if someone followed me I sure wouldn't try to pick a fight with that person, I would do just what I said TM should have done. If you want to confront that person then you do so at your own risks.
By the way, I don't even know how some people figure GZ wanted to kill TM, if GZ wanted to shoot him he had soooo much time to do so during that whole so-called "pursuit", no reason to wait for a confrontation.
you all have thoughtful comments
BS George previously had reported burglaries that had HAPPENED. The closest he came to an in progress is when his neighbor experienced one and his wife saw them leaving if I recall correctly. George reported suspicious people and situations as well as unsafe situations prior to that night.
OTHER than that one home invasion, please point out a report where George WAITED to make the call. Other posters have argued that he was always calling on Black males simply because they were in the neighborhood rather than waiting for them to commit a crime.
Joe Scatone - I dont think you understand what you are saying. You do realize that you are speaking of the MURDER of a child regardless of what bruises Zimmerman may have sustained as a result of his irreprehensible decision to stalk, confront and incite an affray. If a child walks down a street, a STRANGER has no reason whatsoever to approach them unless it is for their safety. Trayvon was underage first and foremost and Zimmerman was not a police. He was a stranger that attacked a child - period. His ego was out of bounds and so were his actions. I sure wonder Joe, what type of children you will have and from my experience, never say never as to what your kids will do, or how they will turn out....as I am sure your mother must be saying about YOU!
George pursued Trayvon from one end of the neighborhood to the other. Trayvon was simply walking innocently home from the store. George did not see Trayvon do anything illegal, and yet George exited his vehicle with a loaded gun and ran after Trayvon. George even said "yes" to the dispatcher when he was asked if he were following Trayvon.
The only person who had a right to stand his ground was Trayvon.
Whether or not is was murder is your opinion and not fact. Legally speaking that has not been decided.
You people have got to be kidding me. This guy was a total punk, he had been kicked out of school for drugs and suspected larceny, and you want me to believe he was just minding his own business and eating skittles? It would not surprise me at all if this little punk's prints turned up on some of the robberies that had Zimmerman worked up to begin with. When I was 17 if I was walking through a neighborhood at night and a guy was stalking me I would have hauled ass back to my house and locked the door. This kid was up to no good, and when confronted about it thought he was going to beat some little guy up like a badass and he got shot. Get over it, Zimmerman did what any person should have done.
Where is the recent picture of Trayvon.. not his sixth grade school picture.
Click> Zimmerman's Gravity --
All the blood on George's head ran down which indicates he could not have been on the bottom with Trayvon on top. If George had been on the bottom the blood would have been smudged and smeared and not in the trickle lines seen in this video.
Hey, Moose, so Zimmerman ran a background check on him before he got out of his truck?
Conn. Yankee--
Click> Trayvon Martin 9 Days Before Death Photo | Global Grind --go to picture 2 of 7
a CHILD????? really........
No Elk, he saw a kid up to no good cutting between peoples' houses late at night and decided to figure out what was going on.
7:00 pm is late at night? What...are you 90?
None of the above matters.
It's not illegal for TM to be walking through that area. It's not illegal for GZ to be watching, following or running in that area.
Attempts by any party to insinuate sinister or unlawful conduct to either actor during this part of the timeline will invalidate the party's credibility.
http://globalgrind.com/news/Trayvon-Martin-9-Days-Before-Death-Photo?gpage=1#gtop
Here is photos taken 9 days before he was murdered. Looks like a 17 year old to me.
Dennis says:
December 4, 2012
I uploaded a graphic showing the doctored photo and the real photo side by side for a rough size approximation. Just look at how swollen and huge his nose is while he is sitting in the police car. Then look at the photo of him at the police station after he was cleaned up. His nose is the normal size. Swelling magically gone..poof.
click> http://tinypic.com/r/nycxax/6
Sorry Moose, you are wrong. He saw a kid walking down the street on the way home from the store at 7:00 pm (didn't realize that was late at night) in the dark in the rain, with a hoodie up. He claimed he looked suspicious not that he was cutting through yards. He profiled him based on things that happened in the community in the past. At least act like you know what you are talking about.
I don't believe the knucklehead in this story was the teenager who had been caught with drugs, obviously sold them via obvious codes over social media, talked about beating up his bus driver, and had been found with a screwdriver and several pieces of jewelry he said "belonged to a friend". After Trayvon took off running, he probably handled the neighborhood watch guy with respect and understood the guy was just trying to protect the neighborhood by telling the police where a teenager who had once been found with a burglary tool and several pieces of unidentified jewelry decided to start running all of a sudden when he was out walking around at night in an area with problems with burglaries. No problem. I'm sure Trayvon was very reasonable and polite. I see that in a lot of young black males who dress in baggie clothes, hoodies, etc. when a white security guard asks them a question or starts watching them. They usually say "thanks for trying to keep us safe", and never act like knuckleheads and start with sidetrack bull**** like "you're following me just because I'm black", (and occasionally commit crimes.) Nope just respect and understanding for the common safety and good. Oh and they never swing on a guy like that if they think they can take him, or resort to threatening or intimidated with violence because violence, trying to be a badass, etc. is not in their culture, music, or values of their role models. Oh and there is no racism toward whites, especially white law enforcement figures, in black youth counter-culture. So these assumptions that Trayvon might have been aggressive about the white security guy following him are kind of far fetched. No the believable story here is that the guy who was patrolling the neighborhood went all psycho vigilante after calling the police and his phony calm, collected voice reported the situation.
Your sarcasm got old after two lines. I'm sure you know plenty of African American young men and make your decisions based on experience...No, you probably live in a white neighborhood and get your generalizations from television.
Jack I am sure you leave the suburbs and go rap with all the youths in the hood, so you understand their plight.
Your desperate and ludicrous desire to distort common sense to fit what you want to think got old two weeks after the incident. I've never seen more pitiful examples of people willing to warp their own perception of actual incidents to fit their desired view. The most pitiful one that is popular now (because unfortunately for your type it is necessary), is that Trayvon was "standing his ground", and that explains the injuries you originally said Zimmerman didn't have. Or better yet it's a combination of Trayvon defending himself from being "followed", (because we all know that anyone has the right to turn on someone and say "you're following me" and beat the s*it out him; that's just plain intelligence all the way around), and Zimmerman beating himself up. And what is the psychological term for the ironic fact that you are the one removed from any actual interaction with street thugs or wannabee thugs, and your idiotic assumptions derive from your sheltered life? I'm sure it's some type of projection.
A last, Physical evidence he put his nose where it did not belong.
Ah, the "guilt by hoodie" argument again. That is the precise stereotype that got Zimmerman into trouble. If he had seen someone dressed in a bad suit and tie with too-short pant legs, he would have thought that he was a Mormon and left him alone.
Instead, Zimmerman made assumptions, got out of his car and stalked Martin and killed a person unnecessarily because of a hoodie. Sad.
A Mormon would not have been walking through a gated community after dark..... So to your point goldpointe..... You have contempt for Mormons but not a thug in a hoodie....
Go "rap" with all the youths? That term probably hasn't been used in 30 years, but whatever. I never said I was an expert. Although I have taught at a detention camp for two years and another four at an alternative school. I do have quite a bit of experience teaching minority youths at these two places and some of them were even "thugs". No, I didn't wish any of them dead, nor am I surprised when I hear one of them was shot and killed. However, I do not consider myself a racist and I find a lot of these bigoted statements not only offensive, but ignorant. The comments made here sound as if you were there, witnessed the whole thing, and knew Trayvon Martin personally.
True BillLumbergh. First GZ didnt have any injuries. Then when its PROVEN he does the crap just starts coming. He must have done it to himself. Oh and then "Well yeah Trayvon was just standing his ground". Losing sight of the fact that what he did was ILLEGAL no matter what. This is out in public. You can't assault someone "for following you" regardless what any brain dead moron wants to think. Sorry all thats illegal no matter if "You would pound his ass" or not. You would be in jail too. Surprise.... If Trayvon had not had died he would have liekly been charged with assault and since he was a minor probably some community service and no one would have heard squat about this....
Kirk, Mormons do lurk in the dark. They knock on your door when you least expect them, even with a "no solicitor" sign. I have no contempt for Mormons, but I do have contempt for cowards who haven't learned how to defend themselves in a fight and pull a gun and shoot instead.
One on one fist fights happen all the time without people pulling a gun, unless they are a sniveling coward who should get life in prison for it.
George Zimmerman still does not have injuries consistent with the ways he has described the incident. Blood on his face from a bleeding nose means nothing. He was referred to an ENT to confirm or disconfirm that he had a closed fracture; he refused to go.
He had no signs of concussion or any type of closed head injury. The one cm and two cm scalp lacerations medically documented were already healing less than 24 hours later, and required no treatment at the scene or from a physician the next day. No bandages, not even an application of antibiotic ointment. No contusions, no abrasions.
Yep DOCJT - the only reason the coward went to the Dr in the first place was so he could go back to work. And, let's don't forget, the wussie was so afraid for himself and his lying wife that they went into hiding that very night (wow - and he wasn't even charged with anything and there had been no protests yet), quit their jobs soon after the shooting and started living off "donations" form gun freaks who never cared about the truth in the first place. Not only that, they paid off their credit cards and bought toys with the first $36,000. Boy oh boy - fine upstanding citizens these Zimmermans.
Trayvon Martin was not committing a crime and GZ had absolutely NO reason to profile, follow and murder this 17 year old teenager. If he walks, be prepared to hear he has shot someone else - he is a loose cannon and has gotten away with criminal and abusive actions his entire life. He!!, he actually cut his own mother's electricity off out of spite. He also let his "friends" take the rap for something illegal he had done, slapped his fiance for chewing gum and assaulted 2 undercover cops. So, who was the one with a record in this situation? GZ and only GZ. Even Serino told GZ that TM was a good kid. Yea - we need more like GZ in our country - NOT!!!
Oh and for all you that think TM was a thug - here is a description of the clothes he was wearing - A dark grey hoodie, a light grey sweatshirt, khaki pants and white tennis shoes. Yep - that would be the outfit of a thug /s/.
It's just more of the same old racist lies. They just can't help themselves.
BillLumbergh: Could not have said it better myself. Nice to see someone who post the truth without prejudice. Most of the comments posted are based on racial prejudice without consideration of the situation. I not only refer to "whites prejudice to blacks" but also "blacks prejudice to whites". Anyone living in the real world knows prejudice flows both ways. The prejudice scale has swung in the other direction but the law or courts do not recognize blacks toward whites prejudice. Equal protection under the law and equal right have become a joke in the USA. It only applies to certain people.
Sad to see the justice system is so intimidated by the fear of riots by black citizens.
It is much more obvious now why the prosecution didn't press charges earlier. There is too much evidence giving reasonable doubt that Zimmerman acted with malice. I can't see a jury convicting this man based on the evidence I have seen so far. Sad story.
Jack, here is something that I posted a while back to another poster--
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I speculate that George Zimmerman shot to kill that tragic night. He did NOT HAVE TO aim for Trayvon's heart.
That cry for help was a cry of forlorn desperation! It was a cry from someone looking death in its face!
.
I truly believe that cry was Trayvon's. It was a pitiful cry from Trayvon as George aimed at him and said, "You are going to die".
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Why would a seventeen year old react to George and say, "You are going to die."?! Trayvon did not need to do that. He defensively took care of the creepy pursuer by jabbing George in the nose......( which probably caused George to injure his head against that tree as George fell to the ground.)
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I believe that was TOO MUCH for the wannabe cop....the man who just never seemed to be successful at anything.....the man who desperately wanted to prove himself after failing at so many ventures.......... from insurance (unable to pass the test to obtain a license).......... to police cadet (not accepted)........to D's in criminal justice courses ................to rejection of his application for an associates degree at Seminole College.
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Yes, George............... who was "at the end of his rope" due to so many failures............ let his RAGE take overafterthat JAB to his nose--- because that jab ENDED another of GZ's attempts to shine as a hero........a hero watch patroler
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Yes, George decided that Trayvon was going to PAY for the "put down" that GZ had just endured from that jab to the nose! I truly believed that George decided that he would make Trayvon pay for it with his LIFE!
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In this cold act........George revealed that his mind was truly DEPRAVED!
You should call the prosecution and testify as an expert witness, because if you really BELIEVE it was Trayvon calling for help, then it must have been. You obviously watch too much CSI, in a situation like this, even at point blank range there is no "aiming", in order to aim, you must raise your gun to eye level and obtain a sight picture, there is no way Zimmerman had time to do that, he just drew and shot from the hip.
Let's focus on George Zimmerman's keychain with the flashlight attached.
In my opinion, its location at the crime scene ......on the T side of that well known tree.......is all that is needed to defeat George's claim to SYG or George's claim to self defense.
All the other evidence....... all of George's statements both in audio and video interviews........all of the other evidence is simply icing on the cake for the prosecution.
The keychain clinches the case!
Why?
Because the keychain marks the location where George should have stayed. The fact that the keychain's light was still on is an extra gift to the prosecution. It was in use!
Trayvon's body was found a good 30+ feet south of that keychain. Trayvon was trying to escape toward home.
What did George do? George pursued Trayvon. No valid self defense there.
George should have gone in the opposite direction. Had everything gone north toward the T from the keychain, George might today have some chance at a self defense claim because north would have shown that George was attempting to retreat.
But....no. George was on the offense. He headed SOUTH of the keychain after Trayvon as Trayvon attempted to get away toward home. He just would not let go of Trayvon........he would not let Trayvon go home.
The keychain with its flashlight is solid, physical evidence.
The keychain ALONE defeats George's self defense claim.
I think something has been revealed here, and I'm not talking about George's mind.
"The keychain clinches the case!" --> Your reasoning is flawed. You should watch the video reenactment that Zimmerman did the next day. That explanation is entirely consistent with the location of the dropped items. And why in the world would the flashlight being in use be a gift to the prosecution? I use a flashlight when I walk down dark sidewalks, too.
You all have thoughtful comments,
You comment on every one of these stories; please stop posting and take your agenda someplace else.
He will get his day in court.
If you click on the words "comment collapsed by community" on my post above, you can read what I wrote.
William - God I know somehow this must be a martin or proescution person?? Why does this person slam this thread over and over and over EVERY TIME one gets posted with a bunch of "facts" that a firstyear law student can eviscerate with NO EFFORT. Sad....
Pbviously, dani, you are not a first year law student. Just saying.
Jack,
Highly unlikely they'll get a conviction. It has self defense written all over it. You see the zealots really trying to twist things to fit a version of the story that violates the laws of physics.
It'll drag out until the case starts, jury selection will turn into a racial fight. Prosecution will try to load the jury up with black people, defense will try to load it with latino / white people. It'll start off with an emotional display from the prosecution and then it'll delve into details. Experts will be called from both sides and it'll will quickly become apparent how flimsy the prosecutions position is.
Ultimately it'll be the medical evidence that ensures GZ's acquittal. The injuries present support his version of events, that he as expectantly attacked by TM, knocked to the ground with TM on top punching him and slamming his head on the ground. That "out of fear for his life" he reached for his gun and pulled the trigger.
Gotta put quotes around that last part because GZ is the only person who can say whether he felt fear for his life or not. We then have to use psychology to determine if that fear was rational or not.
Ultimately they won't get twelve people to agree beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ committed 2nd degree murder. That's why the special prosecutor went with 2nd degree vs manslaughter or negligent homicide. Both of those would be far easier to convict someone on, yet they do not carry the same public image as "murder" and this is 100% being done as a PR campaign to appease the country.
If you click on the words "comment collapsed by community" on my post above, you can read what I wrote.
All you armchair forensic experts cannot possibly come to a real conclusion with one picture. It seems everyone of you have already decided this case without even knowing the facts -- the real facts and not the crap that the media has fed you.
Exactly. Everyone is suddenly an expert who's 'evidence' supports the conclusion they reached a long time ago.
Exactly. Trial and then evidence please....
OH PLEASE!!!! That photo is PHOTO SHOPPED like a MO-FO!!!!
For every 1 unjust act done to a white male, the african american male experiences 25 unjust acts done to him......
Truth Is Now!!!!
For every 1 unjust act done to a white male, the african american male experiences 25 unjust acts done to him
How do you come up with that? You can't count unjust acts as a tally for right vs wrong, each case has to be looked at on their own merit. Please tell us what unjust acts you are talking about.
Yeah, ok. The poor african american male, with all the injustice that is done to him. You do realize that had his great great... grandparents not endured what they endured that they would still be in Africa? Now I have seen some bad places in the US, but there is nothing, anywhere in the US that even remotely compares to the level of poverty in most of Africa.
BIG BOOK, cite a source! show me something that says every one unjust thing to whitey equals 25 done to the brothas. BLACKS cry the victim when they are historically more violent and uncivil than any other race. Then they cry racism. stop dealing drugs, robbing people and sucking on the welfare tit and ill give you a little respect, very little
Moose8684 - I loved Cairo though- I just did! True it has its share of poverty-ridden homes on the backstreets, but MAN what a night life! The Lido at the Golden Horse and some great imported liquor.... oh yes*. Or em - where you talking more like - Nairobi?
Well, we have the winner for the most racist comment on this page...congrats Big Book.
I know this might be crazy but maybe, just maybe Trevon was invoking his stand your ground rights since a man with a gun was stalking him. Yes he was fighting for his life. Novel idea.....
Yeah everyone trys to fist fight someone with a gun.
No, not everyone, just coked up idiots.
yea I totally agree. If Zim-Dim-Wit-Man could not whoop the kids a** (Like a real man would have done)then he should have never approached him or opened his mouth as so much to whistle dixy!!!
Big book.... maybe "Tray" should have stayed out of the white neighborhood and kept to himself in the "hood"..........
This is why white people do not go into Chicago below 35th steet..... Never safe with all the thugs raping and killing everyone....
What white neighborhood would that be? This neighborhood happens to be more minority than whites.
Well given the fact that the "white" mexican Zimmerman lived there as reported by MSNBC.
IT was a "white" nieghborhood.......... the only minority reported by MSNBC is the African-Americans.... everyone else is classified as "white"
More BS. Zimmerman is not Mexican.
No it was not a "white neighborhood." It was a racially mixed neighborhood.
The Stand Your Ground law says you are allowed to "meet force with force." For Martin to be entitled to SYG, some kind of force would have to have been used against him. His lack of injuries (other than the gunshot wound, which came after Martin used force) would indicate that Martin was the aggressor and not the defender.
SYG says you can't pursue and then claim SYG.
Being pinned to the ground and getting your nose broken is a pretty solid case for regular self defense. Zimmerman doesn't even need SYG.
That is George's story.
Trayvon's body was not found where George says he was pinned to the ground--Trayvon's body was found 30 feet south of that location!
And the story of a witness.
Its the story of several witnesses, and a police report.
Well, there is really only one witness who confirmed that Trayvon was on top.
Another said that the bigger person was on top but didn't positively identify either of them (Trayvon was taller but Zimmerman was heavier).
A third witness was a young kid who initially fingered Trayvon as the one on top but then the mother came out and said her kid didn't see anything (probably smart to keep the kid out of this).
That picture does not look anything like all the pictures taken in the interview room. I just can't believe it. It just "pops up" now. I never even saw it in black and white.
It was taken by one of the responding officers, if it wasn't, don't you think the police department would have let somebody know by now?
samaz im sorry the state attorney must have forgotten to send you a copy moron
samaz
Yeah, it just pops up now because 3 days ago, George started a new website to collect donations to be put in a second fund to cover his living expense. He was offering to sell his autograph. Evidently, that didn't get any hits, so his sleaze of an attorney published this to try and jump start the donations. Just a ploy to get the racists and the gun freaks to dig deep into their pockets and send George their pennies. Donations have dried up.
Would someone explain photoshop to me and picture manipulation to me as far as pixel detection?
For a joke, someone showed how a picture can be manipulated--
click> http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMGZUpClose.jpg
Why wasn't George's nose swollen in the picture taken at the police station that night? CLICK> Evidence Photos
@DOCJT
Wow some serious bull sh!t going on there.
It was released as the prosecution took nine months to send it to the defense, they didn't want it hitting the news before they (prosecution) go their version of the story out first. A picture of GZ all beaten up goes against their version of "poor innocent 12 year old choirboy TM was just walking down the street with a bag of skittles when this crazy Nazi, drugged, white supremacist, baby raping, violent killer gunned him down in cold blood".
When this story first hit the amount of emotional manipulation going into making GZ look like a monster and TM into some sort of saint immediately tripped my BS detector. Nobody goes through such great lengths to create such an intense emotional response unless their trying to tell a story and prevent rational thought from getting in the way of suspension of disbelief. Movie makers, writers and politicians have been using these techniques for generations.
Anyhow seeing as your part of the problem and no the solution. Click add to ignore list.
Trayvon was not a thug.
.
But let's look at George--
O'Mara said this MySpace page of GZ--under name of JoeG--is authentic. Here is what George wrote--
http://www.myspace.com/onlytobekingagain
About me:
WOW I SEE SOME OF YOU ARE BACK AT IT.
Geez let the trial speak for itself.
YOU WEREN"T THERE
and this photo doesn't prove anything except he got hit in his face.
Did any of you ever stop to think that STAND YOUR GROUND WORKS BOTH WAYS and TM Also had a right to protect himself from a stranger in the DARK?
He did exercise that right by running away. He then disregarded that right by turning around and going back to jump George.
If TM was truly fearful for his life he would of hung up on his GF and called 911, or had his GF call 911. He would of then continued to go in the opposite direction of the object of his fear.
So unless your postulating that GZ ran so far and so far that he warped space time and arrived back where he started, he must have turned around at some point in time. And seeing that TM had defensive injuries on his body, it's fairly safe to say that he initiated the contact by hitting George who then was unable to defend himself. The results were George pulling his gun.
I'm only mentioning this as you talk about a trial yet attempt to convict him by mob. During the upcoming trial you will see exactly what I typed above and you'll see the acquittal that eventually happens. You'll most likely be pissed and scream and yell, it's to be expected.
There is no evidence that he turned around and jumped GZ. The only thing that any of the witnesses can testify to is that at some point during the altercation, TM got the better of GZ. There is not one single witness that saw who started the actual altercation. There is not one single witness who saw GZ shoot TM. What amazes me is that there were supposedly numerous witnesses that saw the altercation and not a single one of them saw who started it or saw GZ shoot TM. All of you are claiming that GZ is innocent are doing so based on his word alone and your racist attitudes. TM was a young black male who was suspended from school so he must be a gangsta thug and deserved to die. How was GZ so unable to defend himself yet he was able to get his hand on his gun, pull it out and shoot TM point blank in the chest?
Never claimed George was innocent.. only not guilty of murder. He exercised his right to self defense. Since when does that make us racist?
TM was a young black male who was suspended from school so he must be a gangsta thug and deserved to die.
Never stated even close to that.. What has been stated is Trayvon got himself into a street fight that ended in his death. George had as much right to defend himself as Trayvon did. Until the two became entangled in the street fight there was no threat of imminent bodily injury or death. We do not KNOW who started that fight... even the prosecution has stated as much... what we do know is that George received injuries that at the time could reasonably be believed to be severe and life threatening, in the heat of the moment, and he did what he felt was necessary in that moment to end the threat. As to how the shot was point blank .... if there had been distance then Trayvon would not have been an imminent threat and we would not be having this debate.. either George would not have fired or it would clearly have NOT been justified... instead Trayvon was on top so it wold have been difficult to hit him in any place that was not fatal.
Love it! Trayvon 'Thug Life' Martin got what he was axing for.
I do not now and never will feel one bit sorry for Zimmerman! What would you do if you knew someone was following you? All Zimmerman needed to do that night was call out to Martin, explain who he was and ask Martin where he was going but no, he basically stalked Martin. He's an ignorant ass AND a murderer!
"What would you do if you knew someone was following you? " -- You don't get to use force likely to cause serious bodily harm or death against someone who you think is following you in the absence of a more direct threat. You have to have a reasonable belief that that is about to happen imminently to you before you get to do what Martin did--against a man who tried to avoid confrontation that night as well as verbally defuse the situation.
Hey Allie,you dont know what happened,and the odds are pretty good,that people just dont go out patrolling there neighborhoods with families looking to kill someone for no reason.And as far as your Mayberry town response.Im not so sure Martin would have been telling Zimmerman what he was doing in a different neighborhood late at night lerking around some trees.
Well I am sure they (police) have the footprints to show who was running after who.
You know what I DON'T do to people I think are following me? Break their nose and then get on top of them and continue hitting them. That's frowned upon in polite society.
Allie- If I thought someone was following me, I'd probably hang up from my current phone call and call the police. How about you?
InterestedObserver, "tried to avoid confrontation, verbally diffuse the situation"??? Had Zimmerman done EITHER of those things I might agree but when Zimmerman called the police and told them he was following Martin he was told "you don't need to do that". Also, NOWHERE have I ever read that he spoke even one word to Martin before Martin confronted him.
Scubasteve, you'd worry about "polite society" on a dark night with someone following you? Good luck!
WTF, you know the neighborhood, right? You know he was "lerking around trees" right? He was in a "different neighborhood", not the neighborhood where he was staying, right? Nowhere have I read about him lerking around trees and he was certainly not in a "different neighborhood" from the one where he was staying.
inmissouri, I agree with you. I've wondered why he didn't call the police too.
Allie,
Well if Trayvon had given a second thought to assaulting someone because he thought that someone was following him, he might still be alive today.
There is still NO evidence that Trayvon "assaulted" GZ...NONE.
This picture isn't new, it's in black and white in the evidence photos. It still doesn't prove anything more than GZ got punched in the face at some point.
O'Mara will still need to explain how it is that GZ followed an unarmed teen from one side of the neighborhood to the other in the timeframe provided by his own non emergency phone call. It doesn't line up, GZ is LYING and will be proven guilty at trial
GZ should have kept his fat arse in his vehicle and NOT continued to "follow" the unarmed teen!
Send money Zimmie Lovers, send money! THAT is why this photo was given in COLOR yesterday, to garner sympathy and COLD, HARD CASH!
SUCKERS!
Jo-An-4354969
Assault is any attempt to make unwanted contact... Battery is making unwanted physical contact.
Jo-Ann,
If a high resolution color photo of Zimmerman's broken nose, provided by the police doesn't make you believe he was assaulted, I don't know what will.
Scubasteve
Martin could come back from the grave and say "yea, I slugged Zimmerman and he shot my dumb ass" and the Martinis still wouldnt believe it.
So over it, just waiting for the trial to come and go. OVER IT MSN...so...totally....over.........what was going on?
Then why are you even on this blog? You are just over trying to defend the murderer against the facts!
Psst - Diane: it looks like they were entertaining a thought, but then it got lonely....
Waste of Tax Payer money for going after Zimmerman. Zimmerman is justified by Florida Law in the shooting of Martin. Martin was a PUNK, Druggie, Drug Sales, Thief. All of these things are known and proven in previous court actions. Zimmerman actually is a hero, we dont have to support Martin in Prison for the rest of his life. We have Laws in Florida that protect the law abiding citizen, and us Law abiding Citizens are enforcing them. If you criminals do not like our protection laws, stay out of Florida, we are looking for you and most of us are armed to the hilt. Zimmerman equals HERO. Martin, Equals PUNK.
So George Zimmerman did a background check on this guy who was walking in the rain--I mean, what idiot walks around in the rain, except for half the state of Oregon and the entire city of Seattle, 'cause it never, ever rains in Florida--and decided to be judge, jury and executioner. And you're fine with that.
As I posted before, if Zimmerman had pulled that crap in my neighborhood, he would have been the one with a bullet in him. Oregon has "stand your ground" too.
So let me get this straight, if you see a guy in your neighborhood cutting through peoples' yards late at night, you are totally cool with that, even though someone has been breaking into several of your neighbors' houses. However, if you see a guy FOLLOWING the guy dipping through peoples' yards, then you will pop a cap in his ass, because that is where you draw the line in Oregon?
No, in Seattle...
Elk - Well you better have a REAL GOOD story or your going to jail for murder. Sound like another fool who has no idea what Stand Your Ground is and will rot in jail like all the other morons. Its not a license to kill fool.
Again, Moose, it was 7:00 pm. Unless you are 90 years old, that is hardly "late at night". And he was not "cutting through yards".
Oh Dear God - late at night, a hoodie, etc. Let's just kill anyone that happens to be walking in any neighborhood at 7:00 at night with a hoodie especially if it's raining. Hey I have a better idea - let's just target people with umbrellas - makes for much easier target practice. /s/
Yeah, they are easier to spot when they are carrying umbrellas. /s/
Martin had no criminal record. He had never been arrested, charged, or convicted of any crime.
He looks very alive, unlike the young man he murdered.
good job dective Columbo.... you solved the case.
How much more should Zimmerman have let Trayvon hit him? Until his eyes were swollen shut? Until a his jaw was broken?
What level of injury would Zimmerman need to sustain before you believed he was justified in defending himself?
No evidence yet that Martin ever hit him.
Um.... see picture at top of article.
What are your explanations for those injuries?
zimmerman could have stayed in his car..... His face would have been unmarked.
Trayvon could have not assaulted Zimmerman.... His chest would be unmarked.
No evidence that Trayvon "assaulted" ANYONE!
Just ZimmerLIAR's word! The same word that got his bail revoked and upped to one million smackers...
GZ is a PROVEN LIAR!
Right Jo-an,
No evidence that Trayvon assaulted anyone other than Zimmerman's word. And the picture at the top of the article. And the eyewitnesses....
Scubasteve - there was and is NOT an eyewitness to the actual confrontation. So, now who is trying to spin the evidence to their own liking?
We do know that George never identified himself to Trayvon. Deedee says that when the two met up, she heard Trayvon ask him, "Why are you following me." This would have been a perfect opportunity for George to say that he was a NW volunteer. If George had identified himself, Trayvon would have had a chance to say that he was a guest at RTL.
However, all George said (Deedee says), was, "What are you doing here?"
And we know from Witness 18 that George would have said this in a domineering voice. Witness 18 said that the older voice was domineering.
George is totally responsible for putting Trayvon on the defensive.
Concerned Citizen,
There was an eyewitness. He saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman throwing punches "MMA style"
There was no witness to the start of the confrontation, I'll admit that. But Zimmerman's injuries, coupled with Martin's lack of injuries, coupled with eyewitness testimony stating that Trayvon had Zimmerman pinned to the ground and was still hitting him at least introduces reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was defending himself.
Witness 6 retracted his statement about the MMA hitting and said there was only WRESTLING going on.
you all have thoughtful comments
NONE the less there was a witness who saw Trayvon on top. IF CC would care to correct her statment it would be that there are NO witnesses as to who started the confrontation and no eye witnesses to the actual shot being fired.
Witness 18 saw George on top--she said the heavier man was on top.
Witness 18 also said she heard more than one shot, her testimony is toast.
Witness 18 said she saw the "Larger" man on top but couldn't identify who it was. Although Zimmerman was heavier, Trayvon was taller and was wearing two hoodies. Add in the fact that if you see two people wrestling on the ground your mind would just assume that the person on top was bigger, and it doesn't necessarily mean that she saw Zimmerman on top.
It's kind of the same situation as when Witness 6 withdrew his statement that Zimmerman was the one yelling for help. He saw Zimmerman on the bottom and just assumed he was the one yelling. Your mind plays tricks on you like that.
Steve,
I don't think hearing two shots invalidates her testimony. It would be very easy to mistake the original shot and the echo as two shots in quick succession.
Oops - I should have said the start of the confrontation. Which still goes to show that we only have the word of a proven liar and manipulator.
Right, so we have no proof who started the confrontation.
And remind me how our legal system works.... Is it, you have to prove yourself to be innocent? No... that doesn't sound right..... hmmm....
Oh right! You have to be proven GUILTY. And since, by your own admission, there is no proof, I don't see how anyone can prove Mr. Zimmerman's guilt.
Hard to believe so many witnesses are on here posting...oh wait
Wow! That "kid" sure did open a can of whoopass on that grown man.
My toddler fell on my face and gave me a black eye and a broken nose. That face doesn't look like a severe beating.
Oh, and I didn't shoot my kid, either.
yeah, and got what the F**k he deserves for doing it, bye bye traygone,
and gold, that front pic, and the one on the back of the head show zimmerman was in fear for his life, another worthless nigga thug gone
What a wuss you are goldpointe
Hey goldpointe,you must have a pretty fat kid,with some sharp objects coming out of his pocket,
Oh,and your fat toddler,is alot different than a 17 year old kid you dont know in the dark,lerking around in the bushes,late at night with something in his hand.
What a wuss gz is! he picked a fight and got his a$$ kicked, so he pulled a gun. What a coward.
Diane- such a bleeding heart liberal.
Where were you when the white kid in Kansas City was burned by the three black kids who told him you are getting what you deserved????
And that kid could have looked like Obama's son as well.....
Walk through Chicago or New York at 2:30pm in a black neighborhood and see if you need a gun to stay alive.....nope- you have to let them rape and kill you or you will be a wuss...
New York is one of the safest large cities in the world and you've probably never been to either here are the facts. zimmerman approached the kid the kid does not have a violent criminal record ...he wasn't committing a crime but I see the bitter pathetic racist, presidential election losers are out and about tonite...end of story and yes you are a racist if you have decided its a good thing a minor is dead because he was black, minding his own business, not committing a crime, and legally walking home....and if there is a God...you will burn in hell for the hate you have in your heart not that it would actually matter to a conservative...joe, john, Dave M. you are all cowards and only feel adequate behind your computer...and yeah he got his ass kicked and he shot someone because of it..
New York generally is a very safe city, but that doesn't mean that there aren't parts of it I wouldn't want to be in late at night. Take a stroll through Central Park at 3 AM.
uh on- we have a bad ass here- Andrae........
Been to New York plenty of times on business- don't care for it at all.
It is a sewer where tough guys like you post via facebook.
From you comments and hate- I see that you are 1) black 2) throwing politics into the comments 3) calling everyone racists 4) and telling everyone to burn in hell.
I am not the cowardly type.... but if my neighborhood was getting broken into alot by - say blacks---- then I might be inclined to be observant of blacks walking through my neighborhood at odd hours.
New York has alot of black on black crime- PLEASE CHAMPION THAT CAUSE FIRST before CRYING ABOUT TRAY.... getting shot.... LOTS OF BLACKS SHOOT BLACKS- cry about that first...
The statistical breakdown of murders in 2010 offered some interesting insights:
why do all the houses in the hood have bars on their windows
No way that rationalizes homicide - Not in my 20 years of Law Enforcement Experience.
You don't legally bring a gun to a fist fight.
Zimmerman brought that gun for any comfort and protection he could find in his macho world. What a sorry-ass excuse for a 'man.'
squid, in florida as long as you have a permit to carry, you can bring it to a friggin tea party, so shove your 20 years of inadequate service up your ass
Hey Old Squid(Perry Mason),they weren't two kids that knew each other,and were going to fight.They were two stangers,and Zimmermann already had the gun on him.Zimmerman didnt know what he had in his hand in the dark,ooooopppppssss.Anything proven in his hand is considered a weapon,there for self defense,and the picture shows that Martin was fighting,and not just doing nothing.And if you never saw a case like this in your 20 years,then i quess you didnt get out much.
"You don't legally bring a gun to a fist fight." --> Um, yeah, you can. Your 20 years of LAw Enforcement experience was where? Making coffee and filing papers? Cause it sure wasn't out on the street or handling cases.
20 years of bull@!$%#ting on the internet is how I would have posted that comment myself.
You Sorry Ass Actors Above (flyerznut, W.T.F.101, InterestedObserver78, dan123123123) certainly must live in a world of fear. Too bad your Mama's didn't raise no men.
Old_squid, my mama only raised daughters. And we all know how to shoot.
Why isn't he behind bars for life? Stop wasting taxpayer money on this murderer, sentence him.
He is not behind bars because under Florida law he is not guilty of anything.
Behind Bars ??? They should give him a medal.
He hasn't even had his trial. Try to keep up.
Hey dave nystuen,you must be a black racist person,because only racist black people would say something that stupid,without knowing the evidence.Oh and he isn't behind because he posted bail.Something you would be complaining about if it was a black guy behind bars and he was denied that right(innocent til proven guilty for everyone).And the well spent taxpayers money thats going to defend him is the same one thats being spent for all the black guys/gals accused of crimes.
Possibly for the same reason you are not behind bars Dave.
texasbob: Being mentally impaired, in itself, is not a crime... but that was ace.
Wrong. He is not behind bars because he is out on 1 mil bond. Just a matter of time, though.
Yep and that $1M bond was his second cause GZ thought he and his wife could LIE to the court. Good honest people these Zimmermans /s/!!!
Debating this case with liberals is nonsensical. They base their opinion on race (White people bad) only. No reality or evidence will sway their opinion.
This is evidence? I don't know when or under what circumstances this photo was taken. This defense has been trying this case in the press from day one. Get on with it and let's see the evidence. Some of us are getting old while justice plods on. If court were tomorrow he would have copped a plea today.
The actual evidence has been released for all to read because of the FL Sunshine Laws. Don't like it, change the laws. After reading the ACTUAL evidence in this case, if you still believe GZ was in the right and not a murderer, please don't move to my neighborhood anytime soon. People like GZ are not welcome here cause there are all colors of teenagers with an assorted wardrobe walking around here. And if you shot a teenager here for absolutely nothing, I seriously doubt you will not have to worry about being charged or going to jail.
BS - DougLogan - us "liberals" believe that even teenagers have rights - not just the 1% RWNJs. It has nothing to do with race - it has everything to do with being an American Citizen and having the RIGHT to walk down the street without being profiled, followed, harassed and shot.
You are such a coward ...none of you can answer the following truthfully because people like joe scatone are racist puss......
Why is he a thug?
What is his criminal history?...does it warrant murder...or is murder ok as long as it's a young black male?
What crime was he committing when approached
Is it a crime to kick a strangers ass when he approaches you with out reason or authority?
lets hear the racists respond
"if you shot a teenager here for absolutely nothing" Zimmerman didn't shoot a teenager for "absolutely nothing"...unless you consider illegal assault "absolutely nothing".
So standing your ground with your fists is illegal assault, but standing your ground with a cowards weapon is legal defense? What a crazy world the gun nuts have created.
Not true DougLogan, I am a liberal and I would have Zimmerman free today looking at this mockery of a case. If it wasn't for the race issue this thing wouldn't even go to trial.
Dennis says:
December 4, 2012
I uploaded a graphic showing the doctored photo and the real photo side by side for a rough size approximation. Just look at how swollen and huge his nose is while he is sitting in the police car. Then look at the photo of him at the police station after he was cleaned up. His nose is the normal size. Swelling magically gone..poof.
click> http://tinypic.com/r/nycxax/6
Dennis these are two completely different photos dummy. Such a simple minded, easily led fool you are.
Complete Transcript, Serino Interview, 2/27/2012
This is a transcript of Detective Chris Serino’s first interview (pdf) of George Zimmerman early in the morning on 2/27/2012.
Update: Here’s the audio: audio_interview_0227
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Complete Transcript, Serino Interview, 2/29/2012, Tape 1
This is the first of three transcripts for the 2/29 interview of George Zimmerman conducted by Investigator Serino and Investigator Singleton.
Update: Here’s the audio: audio_interview_0229_1
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Complete Transcript, Serino Interview, 2/29/2012, Tape 2
This is the 2nd tape from the 2/29 interview with Investigator Serino and Zimmerman, with Investigator Singleton sitting in. The tape is extremely hard to make out. Serino keeps moving things around, introducing noise that masks what Zimmerman is saying. The audio is absolutely terrible.
Update: Here’s the audio: audio_interview_0229_2
Complete Transcript, Serino Interview, 2/29/2012, Tape 3
This is the transcript of the 3rd tape of Investigators Serino and Singleton interviewing Zimmerman. This tape recorded them playing back the non-emergency call and questioning him about his location, moves and motives. This is the audio:audio_interview_0229_3
Complete Transcript, Singleton Interview, 1st Tape, 2/26/2012
I’ve started working on transcribing the audio interviews that police did with George Zimmerman. I know there are transcripts on the web, but I have found them to be in inaccurate, incomplete or both.
Here’s my approach to transcripts. As much as possible I try to record the transcript exactly as the speaker articulated. If a person says “walkin”, I don’t write “walking”. If a person says “gonna” I don’t write “going to”. I also try to place the interjections precisely where they occur. In other words, if Zimmerman is talking and Singleton interrupts with an “OK”, then I place that OK right where she spoke it, not after the end of Zimmerman’s statement.
I don’t leave anything out. If the Detective reads Zimmerman his Miranda rights, I record precisely what she said and what Zimmerman’s responses were.
Eventually I will have transcribed all the audio, but it’s really slow going, laborious work. So it will be a while before I complete this project.
Having said all that, this is the transcript of the 1st tape of Detective Singleton interviewing George Zimmerman on the night of the shooting, shortly after he had arrived at Sanford Police Department Headquarters.
Update: Here’s the audio: audio_statement_0226_1
Update: Here’s the audio: audio_statement_0226_2
Click the links below for the audios and videos of George Zimmerman's statements--
George Zimmerman Reenacts Shooting of Treyvon Martin for Police at Crime Scene ....Part 1
George Zimmerman Reenacts Shooting of Treyvon Martin for Police at Crime Scene (Part 2)
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Audio Recorded Statement to Investigator Singleton on February 26 (Part 1)
Audio Recorded Statement to Investigator Singleton on February 26 (Part 2)
Audio Recorded Interview with Investigator Serino of Sanford Police Department on February 27 (1205 AM)
Audio Recorded Interview with Investigator Serino on February 29 (Part 1)
Audio Recorded Interview with Investigator Serino on February 29 (Part 2)
Audio Recorded Interview with Investigator Serino on February 29 (Part 3)
fron Axiom Amesia
Discovery Documents Part 1
Discovery Documents Part 2
Police Reports
FDLE Reports (Released 9/19/12)
Supplemental Discovery (9/19/2012)
Evidence Photos
Most of the following was transcribed "Screaming Jay"
Witness 1 composite The following sequence merges her interviews into a chronological sequence in her own words.
I have lived here... it will be four years. I've seen George Zimmerman. I don't know him personally. But when he was first getting the neighborhood watch back up,
he was coming around and asking for email addresses so you could be included in what was going on as far as Neighborhood watch. And he introduced himself to me at the time. And he was telling
me about it so I can come and join one of the meetings. On Sunday the 26th, I was home. I have no idea how this might have begun from the beginning. Because just like 30 minutes ago it was kids out there. It was light. It was raining. But it was still kids out there.
When I looked at my clock it was a little after 7. I was in the kitchen cooking.
Witness 1 I was making dinner, and I heard a noise, it was a screaming noise, and I thought it was kids playing in the back like they normally do. My kitchen is in the back of my house. And the window in my kitchen faces the back, to the rear of my house. The back window was half open. So, I looked out the window and I really couldn't see anything. I peeped out and I couldn't really see back there because there wasn't a lot of lights on back there. And at the same time I was looking out, well, it's really dark back there. so, if there's no lights on in the back you can't hardly see. I remember my light was on. But I can't remember. I don't think my neighbor's lights were on because I couldn't see the figures. That's why I couldn't make them out. I heard something that sounded like some kind of noise, you really couldn't make it out. And they were making this weird noise. I just heard when I was in there I heard something that sounded like moaning or it was some kind of noise the person was making. It sounded like a kid. I thought it was kids. It sounded like somebody saying either, "No" or something like "Uh" and they were running in the back. The only thing I heard was, it was really garbled. You couldn't hear what the person was saying. I couldn't make out what the person was saying, trying to say, or saying. It sounded like a groan or a moan or something.
Witness 1 I was gonna go out there. So, I came to my glass sliding door's window. This area behind my house is the pathway. And I looked out right there. I was looking right, it looked like they were like just caddi-corner to where I'm at. I'm trying to put the other two houses, because it was over by my neighbor's where I saw it. My neighbor's house is here. And then this is the hedge in between. And then the other house, the one with the screen porch, is here. See where that guy, his back is screened in? the end apartment which is screened. When I remember lookingoutside. I'm here. See the middle. It was on the pavement more like in the middle where the hedges are. But on the pavement. That's where I saw. What I saw was closest to the pathway or sidewalk. I'm thinking it's kids out there that's rough housing, playing around. I couldn't make out if it was kids or what. It was just so dark out there I just saw movement. I can see what look like figures, but I really couldn't make it out. What I saw was it looked like figures and it looked like arms. But it looked like arms moving. All I saw was arms flailing. That's all I saw. You could not see if there was anything in anybody's hands. So, I'm thinking that they were here somewhere. I saw no clothing description. I could not identify any clothing of the people I initially saw. I couldn't tell you if they were black. I couldn't tell you if they were white.
Witness 1 At the same time I was looking out, then my neighbor came out at the same time. This neighbor came out at the same time I was looking out the window. It may not have been my neighbor. I knew it was a guy. I just assumed it was him because he's the person that lives there. Not the first one. The second house. I know that's his house because he lives across. He was wearing, if I recall, something dark on the top and it looked like sweat pants on the bottom, if I remember correctly. I did not talk to him. I did not see him again. At the same time I peeked out, my neighbor across the street, where the incident occurred on his lawn, I think it's Twin Lanes that he lives, he came out on his porch and he was like, "Yo, what's going on out there? What's going on?" I didn't hear any response to that. He said it twice. So at the same time he said that, I'm still thinking it's kids that's out there playing around. I couldn't see enough to recognize either one of them. I know just from what everybody is saying who did it. But I couldn't see them back there. I did not see anybody else out there besides those two and my neighbor. I know who peeked out. And the lady right across from me and another person peeked out also. I didn't see any children. It had just gotten dark. Normally kids are out there. But I can't recall that any kids were out there at the time it occurred. I can't remember seeing a kid walking his dog. And then he said, "I'm going to go... I'm going to call the police." And he said, "I'm gonna call 911." At the same time he said that and he closed his door, I said well let me take the stove off. Then he went back into his house. He closed the door at the same time I went back to the stove to take the stove off.
Witness 1 Cause I was going to go back out. Cause I am still under the impression it was kids. So, I came back to the stove. I couldn't make out anything that was said at any time, even when I come back in, or did not look. It couldn't have been that long. There's no way it was. Or, maybe it was. But it was... to me it was instaneously. I mean, I was over there cooking. Heard the noise. By the time I heard the noise, I went to the window. I walked over, looked out, whoever came out at the same time. You know. He said his spiel. Must have been looking for about, I don't know, 15 seconds, 20 seconds, came back. I was like, "Okay, let me go take the stove off."
Witness 1 By the time I came back to the stove to take it off that's when the shot went off. When I heard the pop, I am not familiar with a gun or a gunshot. I assumed it was a gunshot. So it couldn't have been any more than, less than 2 minutes. So, it couldn't have been more than, between those two things,