The GREED! If they really cared about the "children" they would strike in summer time. President Obama: We need more teachers, firemen, & police. They need to strike right over the Facial Cliff! They see Obama trying to get $1.6 Trillion in new taxes and they want their "fair share".

Maybe if the school board took a real interest in smaller teacher-student ratio's the teachers would compromise on other issues.

Striking in the summertime doesn't have the effect on the community, yes teachers are aware that parents will have to find day care for children who are out of school. If I were a parent in that school district I would pressure the board to reach an agreement.

Extortion:

"Pay me more money and I'll do a better job, promise."

Run that gem by your boss in the private sector.

Dumb kids turn into very dumb adults

Parents raise "dumb kids", not teachers.

I've read that the per-pupil spending in the state of Illinois is over $12,000 a year for grades K-12. Contrast that to the private school I send my kids to at a cost of $10,000 a year each. Meanwhile their school has a graduation rate of 99% while in Chicago (yes I know this story is about the suburbs) has a graduation rate of 56%.

Don't anyone dare tell the taxpayer that there's not enough money to fund education. $12,000 a year per student is $360,000 for a classroom of 30 kids. That should be more than though to make sure they have a decent teacher (with good benefits), updated text books, schools supplies, computer labs AND after school activities. I know this because my children's school has all of these things, despite receiving less money than their public sector counterparts.

And many here will say that education begins and ends in the home and that even the best teacher will not be able to help a child whose parents do not value learning (underperforming teachers feed this line to us all the time). I actually completely agree with this notion. So my question is simply this: if the performance of a student is based primarily on their home environment, how will increasing the salaries and benefits of the teachers change that?

This is all the more reason to move towards the voucher model where instead of funding schools, we give every child in the country a $10,000 voucher to be used at a school of their choice. If a parent feels that the quality of education isn't as it should be, they should have the choice to go elsewhere regardless of their economic status. If well-paid teachers are most important to the parents, by all means spend that coupon in unionized school where the teachers union will rape and pillage every dime.

I think if you read this article the are striking for smaller class sizes, not higher wages. There is a direct correlation between class size and student achievement. .

What the hey i am not doing anything, i will go to chicago and teach, of course i do expect the school district or the union to provide me with the essential teaching aids, just the standard stuff, whip, chair, bullet proof vest, ammo...... i will supply my own 1911 however....

Horses quote "Maybe if the school board took a real interest in smaller teacher-student ratio's the teachers would compromise on other issues"

A BS argument because it has little to no bearing on the education received. It has been PROVEN over and over again for over 20 years that student to teacher ratio is a red herring. Based on massive amounts of studies most notably from Princeton that the difference between 25 and 32 students in a classroom, if directed by a strong teacher, has NO differences. The test scores are basically identical. The studies found, and of course in America no one listened to the factual real difference associated with student performance was the SCHOOLS SIZE, not the classroom size. Schools with 2000 students consistently scored much lower on tests than a school with 700 students, which scored significantly higher. The difference being "familiarity" within the school. In a 700 student school basically all teachers knew all the students, unlike a 2000 student school where no one knows who is what. We have continued forward with huge schools knowing that they fail. Why? Talk to you local football programs, or other sports leagues. This student to teacher con job by teachers, but especially by teacher unions is a flat out fraud. It is based on making the teachers job easier, and has NOTHING to do with students, or their performance. America where we know what needs to be done, we just never do it. Look at DC. Chicago teachers are filled with pure greed, and they should either return to work or be replaced with a new crop of fresh minds, minds not seeded in a union.

(Darrin Phegley - AP)

Two Harvard researchers looked at the factors that actually improve student achievement and those that don’t. In a new study for the National Bureau of Economic Research, Will Dobbie and Roland Freyer analyzed 35 charter schools, which generally have greater flexibility in terms of school
structure and strategy. They found that traditionally emphasized factors such as
class size made little difference, compared with some new criteria:

We find that traditionally collected input measures — class size,
per pupil expenditure, the fraction of teachers with no certification, and the
fraction of teachers with an advanced degree — are not correlated with school
effectiveness.

Just one of many many studies. Classroom size is a con job for lousy teachers, period. The only difference is grades k through 3, then classroom size is relevant, it is completely irrelevant in middle and high schools, fact not fiction.

KILLIAN, right on big time!!

Well, Killian. Your private school does not have to take disabled kids. Your private school does not have to take remedial kids. Your private school can throw them out whenever so therefore have not need to address discipline problems.

They can pick and choose the easiest to educate kids and toss the flotsam back onto the public schools.

And - Mr. JCB-1236504, if that's your REAL name. "PROVEN over and over" (The capitalization of the word PROVEN is not, in fact proof). Is vague and of little value. Especially since you qualify your valued Princeton Studies, with "Strong Teacher". Basically, to paraphrase your argument, if a classroom has a teacher who is probably in the top 10% of all teachers, then the class size has less relevance. However, since you have no interest in paying a top 10% teacher anything more than bottom 20% pay for many areas of study, you have reduced your chances to getting a good teacher. Why should they teach your unmotivated kids for less money and far more hassle than they can get somewhere else.

And what, exactly, are the implied pearls of wisdom to be provided by local football or other sports leagues? I think perhaps the monkeys have far more wisdom on the subject. As in Monkey See - Monkey Do. Your disdain for anyone in the teaching profession is obvious. Your kids, aping your attitude, carry this complete lack of respect for teachers into the schools and put for minimum effort knowing full well that YOU will blame someone else.

Rays quote "However, since you have no interest in paying a top 10% teacher anything more than bottom 20% pay for many areas of study"

BS Ray, it's the teachers unions that have prevented "merit pay" at every stop along the way. They want "across the board pay raises" and nothing to do with merit pay. They protect and "rubber room" terrible teachers as part of it's job, which is all about teachers to hell with the students. Sell stupid elsewhere, we're full up on here already pal. I have total disdain for teachers that fail their students consistently, and I'm sick of the mindset that we don't spend enough on education. We spend more per pupil than every western country but Austria and get crap for our money, and I'm sick of the excuses made by unions on why they fail on such a huge scale.

If student/teacher ratio is so critical, why do colleges and university's have lecture halls packed with hundreds of students? If I'm not mistaken, in Japan class size of 50 or more is the norm in primary schools, and they smoke our kids academicachievement. The "class size" issue is nothing more than an effort to swell the size of the union. If there is one state in the nation that can ill afford shelling out more money to the greedy unions, it's Illinois, well California too, oops nearly forgot New York. See a pattern here?

Hi NJK,

Actually cost is a major issue. Only a dumb adult, sorry to be so frank, would care not a whit about cost relative to benefit. Maybe you aren't to blame though as you were likely educated in a public school environment. Here is why cost matters so much.

In California (which is near the bottom of the states regarding per pupil/year spending level) we spend roughly $9,000 per student per year. Average class size is 31. This means that spending per classroom is, on average, about $280,000 per year. The teacher, along with all teaching supplies, gets (including benefits) about 40% of that amount, or $112,000. The costs to run the school itself--principal, secretary, nurse, janitor, utilities--runs, at least in my area, about another $35,000 per year. This means that the non-school overhead costs about $133,000 per yer, PER CLASS. Regardless of your feelings or thoughts about the importance of education no one with any business sense whatsoever should conclude that each class needs, or benefits from, this amount of spending.

My solution: Cut spending in my state, but similarly in other states, by a few thousand dollars per student per year. Slash the district overhead to no more than 10% or 15% of total spending, and give the remaining savings to the school to use for bonus/performance pay, better facilities, more teachers, more instructional materials, or any other desire of the local school board.

But quit feeding the beast. More money without major reforms is the WORST of all solutions.

NJK85

The proof's in the pudding.

lol

You would think that Democrats wouldlearn after having a stranglehold on education that throwing money at the problem does not fix the problem. This is why our public schools are producing idiots, we have idiots in control. You could decrease their classroom size to 1, but a system that doesnt discipline, that has all kids winning a ribbon no matter what as well as a system that relies more on testing and teachers being dictated to by the official democrat approved lesson plans than letting the teachers actually formulate lesson plans that fit their students special needs will always produce mediocre low achievers

Since we spend the most in the World on education, but have results that rank near the bottom, we have to conclude the following- either;

1 - Our kids are just more stupid than in other countries.

2 - Our teaching methods are deficient.

3 - Our teachers (some) are not qualified.

My vote is for 2 and 3.

Why is it that private schools perform much better at about half the cost per student? And this is true even when you 'adjust' for language and disability handicaps.

Perhaps we should just have public schools limited to teaching kids with learning disabilities and let all the other kids have vouchers so the parents have options. We would be far better off with an improved education system at far lower cost.

There's enough money to make the classes smaller but the teachers union and Board of Ed is squandering the money. On the plus side the kids are probably learning more at home than at these horrible schools with horrible teachers.

New Gawker "On the plus side the kids are probably learning more at home than at these horrible schools with horrible teachers."

Interesting results of studies on Homeschooling; The link is;

http://home-school.lovetoknow.com/Statistics_on_Public_School_Vs_Homeschooling

Academics

Two major studies have assessed academic achievement in homeschooling. The first study,Strengths of Their Own: Homeschoolers Across America was conducted in 1997 and followed more than 5,000 homeschoolers from over 1,600 families. The study showed homeschoolers typically academically outperformed children receiving a public education on standardized tests by approximately 30 to 35 percentile points in all subject areas.

In the second, the Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA) commissioned a study drawing data for the 2007-2008 school year from multiple standardized testing services. Once again, the national average percentile scores were higher in all subject areas by at least 34 percentile points, and as high as 39 percentile points. Factors such as parental college degrees, how much parents spent on education, level of state regulation, and sex of the students made little difference in the range of scores in all areas among the homeschooled children.

Socialization

Recent research is changing opinions about how well-socialized homeschooled children are. While there is a common misconception that homeschooled children may be more poorly socialized than their publicly educated peers, this may not be the case. In a meta analysis of 24 studies about homeschoolers and socialization, Dr. Susan McDowell concluded socialization was a "non-issue."

@ Ray You're right, they don't have to take disabled kids. But from my experience private high schools do a better job with them. I, along with many others with learning and anxiety disorders, was one who switched from a public high school because the learning environment was not conducive to education. We needed a more structured learning environment that was not being provided thanks in part to liberal policies that prevented the enforcement of discipline, dress code, punishment of bullies, etc. But of course they were always oh-so good and promoting the importance of "diversity" while failing to solve any actual problems. If you have a kid with such a problem, try explaining it to the faculty. They will most likely condescend to you and tell you it's his or her fault for not being able to adapt, be more accepting, etc.

This is why, as a student who had a learning disorder, it always pisses me off when people try to say that liberals care more about us than conservatives.

Killian, you stated, "Vouchers should be given to students so that they can choose the schools they want to attend regardless of their economic status,"... yeah, until they start attending your schools. We cry about the government, the unions, etc. Public School teachers are in need of assistance. There are good teachers, in public schools, who care about the students they teach and then there are some who could care less if a child learns or not; It's not all about the money because if it was, some of those teachers wouldn't be there.

We are so quick to "tear down" or tell someone else what to do with their children, but until it happens to that individual, some will never understand. Regardless of who and what they are, children deserve a chance to be taught and not all children/students in the public school sector are "bad," just as all of the children/students in the private sector are not all "good." Classroom size has always been a problem in the public school sector. I believe now, the focus should be on working with some of these teachers/schools and cut down the class size.

Some say take money from the public schools, but I don't see anyone wanting to cut the pay of some of these CEO's or Congress who give themselves 300% raises but some of us want to complain when teachers want better pay and better learning facilitities...come on people, get let's get it together.

@JCB.... you are wrong... The difference between a 25 child classroom vs. a 32 is 7. : )

Back East

@JCB.... you are wrong... The difference between a 25 child classroom vs. a 32 is 7. : )

back east...not in obama math...or chicago for that matter.............

I'm Curious about the statements about how Public schools get a pass on not doing as well at educating kids since the private schools don't have to take kids who are handicapped or have learning disabilities.

First, my state, MO, does not require a school to COUNT those students in their 'test ratings'. If a student is handicapped, has learning disabilities, or even is LEP (lacking English proficiency) the district does not have to use their test scores, or in some instances, even TEST them at all.

Second, I'd be curious to know, in Chicago--which is right in the midst of one of the biggest 'Sanctuary state' for illlegals, how much are kids who do NOT speak English adversely affecting the REST of the students?

My small home town in Central MO (20K people) has nearly one out of six kids in our student body who do NOT speak English. Any non-Spanish speaking American CITIZEN kid who has a reading disorder/problem such as dislexia gets NO help from our district because ALL of our 'reading specialists' spend their ENTIRE time trying to teach those spanish speaking kids NOT just English, but the ALPHABET (and we're not just talking K-2nd graders, here. A friend who has spent her 22 years improving her skills with helping students with physical reading difficulties, CRIES every August just thinking about the fact that the Spanish speaking kids she spent ALL of last year working with, will RETURN to school in the fall having regressed to being nearly at the level they were the year before in August, because for 3 MONTHS they have been once again, immersed ONLY in Spanish Language.

And make no mistake--we have a local PBS station that you can get on your TV with 'RABBIT ears'! Remember Sesame Street et al? If these kids' PARENTS had any interest in "making a better life for their family" Not ONLY their kids, but the ENTIRE family would be watching PBS.

Meanwhile, our district is spending $7500 a year PER student, INCLUDING the nearly 800 who are the children of illegal immigrants, and the American citizen kids face class rooms where nearly one in 6 do NOT speak English. No matter HOW small your class room size is, WHO do you suppose occupies most of the teacher's time? And at what RATE is the class able to progress, when they have to 'wait' until the non-English speaking kids 'get it'?

And PS--our town has NO industry that qualifies for GREEN cards, nor have any been issued for companies in the county. We DO have, right outside of town, however, a TYSON plant, and all its accompanying CAFO's.

So I can just IMAGINE the problems CHICAGO schools are facing, since they are in a sanctuary state.

If they cared about the students, they wouldnt strike. Its that easy. Its obvious that they only care about lining their own pockets and making their job easier. My dad is a teacher, and he is tired of the libs always using them as a scapegoat to ask for more money. "Oh, its for the kids and teachers. Wah wah." BS. If it was for the kids, teachers unions wouldnt be using all their money to keep @!$%#ty teachers in, and make it so great teachers cant get better pay. They also wouldnt leave 20k kids without school.

People whined about Wisconsin for getting rid of public unions. Any libs ready to finally admit that they are just a problem, and never a solution? Nah, gotta get more of that sweet money from the evil rich people.

@MoMaid Really?!! You're kidding!! I live in STL and when we had to take the MAP test, they would just give me more time to take the test due to my disability. But if what you say is true, why would they do that if they didn't even have to count my scores?

they shouldn't strike. They need to call their man Washington Obama to the rescue. The Teachers and their Union voted for him so let him resolve the issue.

@ Rich-281385: On the surface, what you say makes sense. The reality however...
is that you have no clue what you're talking about. I work for a VERY large
school district (in a support capacity) and I process invoices every day that
show how our dollars are spent. We purchase books, furniture, computers,
software, signs, plumbing/electrical/air-conditioning supplies, trash cans,
lawn mowers and a HOST of other materials. We have
lawn/paint/carpet/electrical/air-conditioning/pest-control/plumbing etc. crews
that make sure our students are in a SAFE learning environment. In addition,
there are items that must be contracted out, such as elevator repairs (any idea
what it costs to fix one???) and fire alarm monitoring (HUGE expense). Oh, and lets’
not forget about the busses that get our kids to & from school. Then
there's Printing, Payroll, Accounting, Professional Development, Health
Services (someone has to oversee the school nurses), Personnel (in addition to
hiring they also do the BACKGROUND CHECKS for staff AND school volunteers)
etc., etc. etc. So which of these things should we do away with???

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-09-19/news/sns-rt-us-usa-chicago-schools-costbre88i1fp-20120919_1_chicago-teachers-union-tentative-contract-teacher-salary

JK33579:

I've worked as a speech-language pathologist in the public schools (years ago) and am here to tell you that if the same enthusiasm and dedication were put into the private workplace as I've seen by some teachers, a great many of these people would be unemployed. When you factor in the summer off, 2 weeks at Christmas, all major holidays and spring break, the salary they are making NOW is not only adequate, it is FAR better than they would garner - AND THEY KNOW IT - in the private sector. If $76,000 is such a hardship on them, let them go elsewhere and try to earn more. They won't; and they know it.

There are some fabulous professionals; and para-professionals in the public schools, and they deserve their salary and their due. Some of these people - who are unfit to teach a dog - cannot be pried loose because of unions, and that is a shame. How many sit and draw a paycheck and do absolutely nothing - because of teachers' unions? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/08/francesco-portelos-staten_n_1948482.html At present, there were 218 people drawing paychecks awaiting disciplinary actions or simply because they were not deemed fit to teach - but could draw a paycheck - at tax payer expense. Maybe these should be cut - you think?

When I was in school, the ones who did not make it in our college went............... to the school of education, and that is no lie. This reminds me of the teacher who was arguing that her $86,000 salary with fringe extra was not enough. Like Christie said, then don't do it. Let these grumbling babies go anywhere else and try to get more. Ain't gonna happen.

Obama continues to repay his contributors - at tax payer expense.

Sorry to get back to you cry babies so late I was volunteering at school yesterday.

My child has attended both private and public schools and I'll confirm what Ray stated:

Ray Setzer said:

Well, Killian. Your private school does not have to take disabled kids. Your private school does not have to take remedial kids. Your private school can throw them out whenever so therefore have not need to address discipline problems.

One of my child's teachers had a son who attended the same school. This teacher was and is one of the top teachers in her specialty of early childhood development and received a discount on her sons tuition. This boy had some learning and emotional issues that became an issue for the school administration and they denied him further admittance even though the methods utilized at this type of school are regarded as superior in teaching impaired students. What is the bottom line here?

I don't give a damn about research that purportedly refutes that classroom size is irrelevant when the teacher is a top teacher. The fact is that school districts need thousands of teachers and some if not many will be less than satisfactory. Remember Ray's other excellent point:

...since you have no interest in paying a top 10% teacher anything more than bottom 20% pay for many areas of study, you have reduced your chances to getting a good teacher. Why should they teach your unmotivated kids for less money and far more hassle than they can get somewhere else.

In our current boundary-admissions public school we have autonomy from the district, similar to charter schools, that allows the school to: 1) hire teachers based on criteria that most benefits the school - not based on the school district's teachers union seniority, 2) teachers are evaluated and retained or let go based on the school's criteria for performance - not the school district's criteria or teachers union's seniority, and 3) the school develops it's own specialized curriculum.

I've been volunteering for four years here and I can personally report to you that there is a massive, real-life difference between 25 and 31 students. The range of children in the classroom goes from emotionally neglected to academically advanced and the teachers must accommodate all of it in a single day. I am not privileged to their pay scale information, but I do know that the school struggles with the budgetary problems shared by the school district and I would be surprised if our teachers are paid more than other traditional public schools in the district.

Now to my previous point. The teachers and their union can negotiate over whatever the hell they like. If they want the walls painted blue or the clocks in the hall to run backwards, it is their battle to pick whether you like it or not. I've worked in union and non-union shop's in the same industry and I've participated in contract negotiations and have generally compromised on many issues, like it or not. That is what this is about... compromise.

The teachers have a right to negotiate their contract just as the affected parents and school board does. F'ing get over it, become a teacher or leave the teaching to the teachers.

Reading the article would have answered your question!

Apparently Rob cannot read. If he could, he would know these teachers are from the suburbs and not the city.

ROB

Don't forget the other states that represent fine liberal fiscal responsibility and management. Like NY, CA, MI.

Robbob-1667446 "Want to see what America going to look like if it keeps being run liberal leftys, I present to you Chicago Illinois the home of the libtard proving ground. This city and the whole state for that matter is completely out of control because of the skillful leadership of the left...Wake up America because this is going to happen to the rest of the country under the control of the leftwingers."

The country had a chance to make a 'change' in the elections a month ago, but they apparently liked the dismal results of Obama's first four years, so they decided to give him 'four more years'.

One of the demographic groups that gave Obama his largest margin of victory in both 2008 and 2012 was 'High School Dropouts', so perhaps the Democrats like the political advantage that comes from uneducated voters.

Chicago is perfect for libs. More poverty and crime equals more race baiting and people on food stamps, equals more liberal voters. Perfect.

Instead of a sarcastic comment why didn't you answer the questions or is it that you did not understand what a question mark at the end meant, Perhaps it was you who did not finish school.

LITPB,

Just be glad that takenaka posted a two-sentence reply. Usually, it's just "Ban guns."

Morning denver bill, Yes I am familiar with taken aka and their idiotic postings

GM Denver Bill

Seems the 'burbs of Chicago caught on to what worked for the inner city. Wonder how long this will last? Also takenaka sure does post some weird "stuff"!

Ban.....D. Bill, Lost. Jack, and IA.

Morning guys. ........you too takenada, went all the way from two words to nine i see, very impressive....good job, the doc must have adjusted your OCD meds ...eh.

ECE1

I bet they wouldn't have a Class size problem if they were paid per student. Anything above 30 students is .50 cents an hour more. I bet they would be able to handle a lot more students.

Kev. but then they uncle or aunt lazy wouldnt get a job.

I just love reading ill-informed posts from idiots who have no idea what they are talking about, and probably haven't seen the inside of a classroom since they dropped out (a little sarcasm to match yours). I never met a teacher in my life who started in the profession for the money and lack of work. I have always wondered why you idiots don't become teachers yourselves if it's such a great, money-making, lazy career. That would make the teachers smart and you stupid if it were true. The teachers I know have families of their own and usually spend hours beyond the normal work day to earn enough to even think about covering their own costs. Meanwhile, salary and benefits gave been DRASTICALLY cut, opportunities for advancement slashed, and the profession demonized as the cause of every evil thing on the planet. I could go on and on (and I may actually decide to write a book about it someday), but I'm afraid I simply had to say something to call out the ignorant posts. It really does get old.

science probably you are a teacher yourself. It is the best secure job in the United States. many teacher never got their master and got a job with their bachelor degree. they have a pretty good salary $75-100 thousand a year, plus three month vacation paid. 2 month in the summer and all the holiday in between that add up to one extra month. If I was in charge I would give them one month vacation from July 15 to august 15. Let them earn their salary.

@ gregorio057; WHERE in the USA do teachers earn those figures you quoted??? The 2011 AVERAGE salary here in Florida is $45,723.00. And BTW... many (if not most) of our teachers attend training during the summer months.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-09-19/news/sns-rt-us-usa-chicago-schools-costbre88i1fp-20120919_1_chicago-teachers-union-tentative-contract-teacher-salary

This is the Chicago Tribune, JK33759. If they're wrong, perhaps you should let them know.

So?

and gave up after 11 perhaps ...at what 25?

@Bob,

Agreed,

Working without a contract does not = working without a PAYCHECK. If your job sucks, quit!

Many of us, have been unable to find a steady paycheck for the past 4 + years. What makes them so special?

Let's see MRZ

1. do you have a degree?

2. did you have to get a Masters to keep that job?

b dune

2. did you have to get a Masters to keep that job?

Nice deflection. According to the National Center for Education Statistics, 52% of public school teachers have master's degrees. Most obtain them to increase their earnings, not to keep their jobs. In fact, not only do most school districts not require a master's degree to teach, many don't even require you to have an undergraduate degree in the subject you are teaching.

b dune, My wife has an MBA and makes no where near what our 3rd grade daughters teacher does! Nor does she have lifetime healthcare and the summer off.

@b dune,

Masters degree in "education" = "entitlement"???

Then why doesn't your wife get a job as a 3rd grade teacher? She'd then make more money and get the summer off. Oh, she doesn't want the job because in reality she'd rather make less money than put up with the working conditions of the teacher.

School systems don't have requirements to have a degree in the field taught. Rather, they require one to have a degree in teaching and have a certificate distributed by the closed universe of teacher colleges. This is part of the dumbing down cycle and loss of overall quality in public school education.

An engineer with a PhD from an Ivy league school can't teach math in the public schools until he gets a teaching certificate form a mediocre teaching college. On the other hand, a person with a teaching certificate in math from a mediocre school who cannot do the calculus can get a job teaching it.

The quicksand is wider cast than the unions, it is a systematic choking of American schools by certificate granting "colleges."

currentonmymortgage

in reality she'd rather make less money than put up with the working conditions of the teacher.

Not everyone is cut out for politics.

MRZ

Masters in education=at least 5 years of college

Masters in education=passed state certification exam

Masters in education=will not work of free or minimum wage

Really? Why all the vile, knee-jerk, hateful comments directed at teachers? Maybe you're jealous of their very average salaries? (the local paper in my area loves to report public employee salaries each year. Last year, it reported that I made 76,000 as a classroom teacher. Interesting....it includes health care costs, etc, in that figure. I only make about 37,500 a yr, after 15 yrs. WOW -- what a salary, right? Surely I am responsible for the economic ruin of America, right?!?!?)

So WHY are you guys so reflexively angry? There hasn't been a strike there IN 30 YEARS! It's not like they're walking off the job every other week. Perhaps you're just mindlessly swallowing the whole "anything other than the flawless, super-holy, regulation-free free market system is eeeeeeevil!" argument Lehman Bros and Goldman Sachs LOVES that you believe.

Believe it or not, there is a big, big number of public school teachers who aren't cynical like you, and we actually believe that we do important work even though the financial rewards are modest and we now also have to put up with partisan hacks calling us fat, lazy, and greedy. If that takes a drastic measure every 30 years to draw attention to the stupidity of groups that defund education and put in place idiotic, senseless paperwork requirements that have no bearing on classroom teaching (see NCLB and now RTTT), so be it.

Thanks for the morale booster. Signed,
-- an effective veteran teacher who doesn't understand how he became Darth Vader in the public's eyes in the last 3 years, and thinks it's pretty much unwarranted.

Masters in education=at least 5 years of college

Hmm?

Masters in education=passed state certification exam

Or, you can pay someone to take it for you.

Masters in education=will not work of free or minimum wage

No one asked you to!

"An engineer with a PhD from an Ivy league school can't teach math in the public schools until he gets a teaching certificate from a mediocre teaching college"

Demonstrably NOT TRUE.

Most districts have a VERY easy pathway for people who want to teach but don't have ed degrees. In my district it's just a few classes, most of which can be done online, and they have YEARS to get them done.

And I don't get where you people get these figures for teaching salaries from. Seriously. My wife and I are teachers, and we're paycheck to paycheck. We will always be paycheck to paycheck. The vast, vast majority of our friends who are teachers live paycheck to paycheck. The only teachers I've known who don't live paycheck to paycheck are the ones who made a mint in the private sector BEFORE they started teaching, like the banker and the construction contractor I work with. Good for them, I'm glad they're successful. But they're on easy street NOT because they're teaching. They're teaching because now they can AFFORD to.

When my wife and I don't have school obligations (something you don't hear about. So much for 'every summer off'), we take summer trips and WE SLEEP IN THE CAR, or a TENT. But I see these postings on these education stories and people start blathering about how teachers make $110K a year and stay at the 4 Seasons on their 30 weeks of vacation, while being garaunteed jobs and health care for life. IT IS LAUGHABLE.

You Tea Party-ish armchair educators out there have no idea. My wife and I live in a $58,000 house. We aren't having kids because we can't afford it. I drive a 17-yr old truck, kept running only because my school has a auto tech class that can do minor work cheaply. Now we have to deal with a technical, test-based evaluation system that is unproven, has dubious educational value, and is obviously DESIGNED for teachers to fail, so cheap young ones can be hired (or, more disturbingly, create for-profit charter schools instead -- even though their results are HORRIBLE). When (if) I can retire, I DO NOT GET FREE HEALTH CARE. I'll have to work until I drop to pay for health care. I've seen it happen to my co-workers.

I am NOT looking for sympathy, but please understand how frustrating it is to be told how AWESOME and EASY I have it, at the expense of hard-working taxpayers who do "real" work. ENOUGH.

Most of the teachers go on to get their master degrees because they get education incentives and stipends, In other words the public winds up paying for the teacher to get the degree and then winds up paying for the degree throughout the tenure of the teacher. Getting these master degrees is just another way for the teacher to get more money from the taxpayer

Demonstrably NOT TRUE.

Kind of like your "post". Or, maybe to add to your heart wrenching story, you also have the worlds slowest computer and you actually typed this back in the 1950's.

Currentonmymortgage, My wife wouldn't qualify to teach! In fact, I was in a Union Trade for 34yrs,retired, and have a Associate's Degree from a Jr. College, I'd have a better chance than her! You really want me teaching your kid's? Also, at one time she was making more money than a 3rd Grade teacher. This is what happen's when you have a group of educated Union member's who know how to work the system. Nothing more. Not like the Union thug's we have that lead it's members around like cattle. This isn't the first strike in the suburbs of Chicago nor will it be the last. Chicago is in a money crunch,yet CPS went on strike and got a raise? The suburban teachers are saying hey they got it, where's ours? The collar counties of Chicago are heavily concentrated with Republican Conservatives. We believe the key to success is education and put our money where are mouth is in taxes and voting YES to bonds that better the school district,that's a fact. The conservative side however want's to know how the money is spent and what kind of bang for the buck are we getting. We do not want to end up like the Chicago Public School system, rife with corruption, mis management, and wasted spending. Compound that with a Union whose tactics are nothing short of extortion!

geta clue

so basically you have two salaries and cant manage your funds....hope you don't teach math or basic economics. you should however be excellent at "lib logic 101"....or perhaps " the starters guid to the blame game".....BTW ....IF you are teachers why aren't you in class?.... you know....TEACHING......

GM Scooter/GA here in B'bados!

Good call!

good morning Jack.my friend.

ITS 60 here today....hit 70 yesterday.... unfrigginbeleveable......its usually about 10 on my B.day bout to split headed on my rounds a wee bit early today. by the way if i remember i will send ya an e mail before i leave.

MRZ

you been on a roll the last couple days keep up the good work.

Sorry my friend - it is only 29-33 degrees here in B'bados - I had to go inside, take my tank top off and put on a Polo Shirt :*) Actually in Celsius or about 85- 91 +/- Fahrenheit! I may have to sweat some more, hehehe.

Enjoy your warmth while you have it, as I think you have a winter storm approaching from the west?

ITS 60 here today....hit 70 yesterday.... unfrigginbeleveable

Happy Birthday my friend! I'll have some Jack Daniels and toast you when I get off in about 2 hours.

Thank you jack, sent ya a mail

well bout that time i can hear the bar's calling from here. have a great one.

have a great day all....

GetaClue-2104366,

The fact that you are abandoning the kids shows what type of people you are. My dad's a teacher and is ashamed of people like you. I hope your lazy ass gets fired and they hire a teacher who doesnt complain when he doesnt get everything he wants. Our schools are ranked near the bottom thanks to "teachers" like you.

Getaclue

I fail to see why you wouldn't be more furious than anybody else posting here!!! The fact that just because these teachers are located in/around the cesspool (my own opinion - to which I am entitled) of Chicago, and they belong to unions, garners them a salary that on the average is twice yours should infuriate you - and your wife. I am certainly not anti-teacher; it was my intention to work in a public school whenever attending college/graduate school, but chose another path.

Chicago is SOOOO unionized that the company my husband worked for years ago went there to install pay-for-view systems in the larger hotels; and they were not allowed to plug in their own equipment, even though they were completely capable. Their company was required to pay $1500 to union employees for less than 10 minutes work. It it ridiculous; and it is ruining the economy, but Obama is paying back his supporters. Democrats can never, never, never tax or unionize enough.

To the majority of people who replied here, thank you for proving my point. I wanted to share some idea of what it's like to be a teacher, and to dispel some of the misinformation you might take as gospel, and to say that it's frustrating to be called fat, lazy, and greedy, when in reality, teaching is a tough job and on top of it, you don't get the respect you used to.

The replies mostly ignored the objective facts of my statement and went on to call me fat, lazy, greedy, and now, thanks to MRZ, now I'm a liar as well.

I'm sorry if I somehow offended your delicate sensibilities by disagreeing with you on any issue --- but realize, you guys sound completely unhinged. You're so riled up by your media habits -- I was a loyal R voter for 20 yrs, I know the power of "conservative" media -- that the moment anyone who doesn't think like you do dares express an opinion, most of you default to an ad hominem attack. Don't put words in my mouth, either, I'm not a "Rethuglican" OR a "libtard" -- everybody does it these days. But those who call themseles conservatives just seem to be especially nasty.

There used to be a time when people could talk to their fellow countrymen about ideas in a civil tone. I guess those days are gone.

Respectfully submitted.
(via my PHONE, during my lunch period, even though I DO NOT have to explain my work habits to anyone here).

Yeah, the results are stellar so far with spend more money and all your kids will be so much smarter. Graduation rate for Chicago area is 50%. Tanfastic!

I wonder how so many Smart People can be SO DUMB..... The cost of Teaching and Administration is directly related to how many Kids are Stuffed into a Class Room..... The more these Union Thugs and Bosses Make the worse it is for our KIDS..... FIRE THEM ALL AND REPLACE THEM, Hey if Reagan could do it with the Air Traffic Controllers then surely it can be done here.....

domewars:

Did you go to one of these schools, or are you just at the Union Hall early?

I would suspect they make very close to any neighboring districts. The ones in chicago that were on strike a month or so ago made well over 70k and some over 100k. Its not like the teachers in Mississippi who make $35k. Why do public employees think they are "entitled" to a raise, most people paying their salary have gotten no raise for years or got laid off and make far less than they did before. A huge part of the so called stimulus money went to paying their salaries when everyone else was getting cut. Now there is no more stimulus money and they still want more...greedy is all that is.

Domewars

To the people at the top of this post do you idiots even know how much these teachers make?

Ahhh, name calling. The mark of a well reasoned and persuasive argument. Since you ask, here are some numbers from teachersalaryinfo.com/illinois:

CUSD 300 has 1,176 teachers and 20,171 students --- a 1:17 ratio.

The average CUSD 300 teacher salary is $62,196 for elementary school teachers, $63,042 for middle school, and $72,341 for high school. For teachers in the 90th (earnings) percentile these numbers are $96,566, $96,135, and $110,304 (respectively). (In 2009, the average teacher salary nationwide was $49,720. The average teacher salary in Illinois was $57,283)

The district expenditures are shown as $239,438,000, of which $94,696,000 is spent on instruction, $96,921,000 on teacher salaries, and $27,154,000 on teacher benefits. That is, slightly less than 40% on the students and slightly more than 60% on the teachers.

Have a nice day.

domewars

to the people at the top of this post...."

there's this little word at the bottom right of the post stating "REPLY" on every post, do you know what it is for? Or are you merely a product of those "over-sized classrooms"?

Thanks for the numbers, Denver. Here's some thoughts on those by a teacher with some experience in contrcat negotiations:

"CUSD 300 has 1,176 teachers and 20,171 students --- a 1:17 ratio."

Take it from me: There are nearly NO classes in this district with a 1:17 ratio. This number is often distored by a heaviness in administration/staff position. In my district, the DOE can get away with calling conselors and admin folks "teaching units" even though they don't instruct classes directly.....this is a way to get the ratio number down and make it look more appealing to the masses.

The average CUSD 300 teacher salary is $62,196 for elementary school teachers, $63,042 for middle school, and $72,341 for high school. For teachers in the 90th (earnings) percentile these numbers are $96,566, $96,135, and $110,304 (respectively). (In 2009, the average teacher salary nationwide was $49,720. The average teacher salary in Illinois was $57,283).

I don't know why you included the 90th percentile figures, other than it's a bigger number and might somehow make your beef with public ed seem more justified. The average figures will work just fine. The CUSD average salary is slightly higher than the state average. I'd be interested to see the correlation to property values? I'd bet they're slightly higher than average. So.....not sure what your point here is. It reminds me of the simmering rage ol Scott Walker directed at the "grossly overcompensated" Wisconsin teachers....and then we found out that they made within a few hundred dollars of their private sector counterparts.

The district expenditures are shown as $239,438,000, of which $94,696,000 is spent on instruction, $96,921,000 on teacher salaries, and $27,154,000 on teacher benefits. That is, slightly less than 40% on the students and slightly more than 60% on the teachers.

This is merely semantics, but shows an insight to your thinking. To me, EVERY dollar spent on education is "spent on students." Money spent to pay teachers IS spent on kids.

Respectfully.

GetaClue-2104366

Thanks for the numbers, Denver. Here's some thoughts on those by a teacher with some experience in contrcat negotiations:

Thank you for the response. Despite the normal tenor of my posts, I do enjoy the seldom-to-be-found intelligent discussion here.

Take it from me: There are nearly NO classes in this district with a 1:17 ratio. This number is often distored by a heaviness in administration/staff position.

I stand by these numbers. If you check the website I cited, you will find that I did not (in the interest of fairness) include the number of school staffers (who outnumber teachers) or the number of teacher's aides in the district. If the average is 17 students per teacher, some classes will have more and some less. There may even be, as the article states, a class with 35 students in it. That would be at the high end, just as the low end will be below 17.

I don't know why you included the 90th percentile figures, other than it's a bigger number and might somehow make your beef with public ed seem more justified. The average figures will work just fine.

I included it because it seemed interesting to me. I have a background in mathematics, so I understand what "average" means. The higher percentile number is useful in judging the range. Of course, you are free to visit the site, find the numbers for the 25th percentile, which would be an indicator of the floor of the range, and use them in an argument.

"The district expenditures are shown as $239,438,000, of which $94,696,000 is spent on instruction, $96,921,000 on teacher salaries, and $27,154,000 on teacher benefits. That is, slightly less than 40% on the students and slightly more than 60% on the teachers."

This is merely semantics, but shows an insight to your thinking. To me, EVERY dollar spent on education is "spent on students." Money spent to pay teachers IS spent on kids.

Semantics is the study of meanings. I provided the facts regarding what the district expends in various areas. The distinction is contained in the data, not in my posting of the data. I merely added the percentages; that is, more numbers. You are the one who claims that the distinction is irrelevant, because it's all "for the kids." You are certainly entitled to that opinion, but surely you see that your assignment of meaning to the data is a much better example of semantics than my post.

Respectfully in turn, DB

If you want a sustainable way to Education just look at Wisconsin. End collective (stealing) bargaining and the union vultures will fly in to the darkness....

Smaller class sizes do not equal better education. I learned that in my 300 person lecture hall at UCLA. I wonder why we are one of the top schools in the world, and yet have such huge class sizes? Maybe its because my professor actually knew what he was talking about. When I knew more math than my first grade teacher, and had another teacher believe that a zillion came after a trillion, I knew why our schools are ranked so low. Stupid, uneducated, lazy and greedy teachers.

And no, Im not saying all teachers or even most teachers. But the unions make it so all get paid and judged the same. Get rid of the union, and judge a teacher on their performance.

GetaClue,

GetanAnswer.

Oh, Denver! You ruined it! :) I was just about to compliment you, when all of a sudden I came across your somewhat snarky "getananswer" jab. I'm sorry if I took too long to get back to this -- I've been busy.

But on the other hand, I'll compliment you anyway. :) I appreciate your original post, and the follow-up. And BIG kudos about the sematic-angle of my last paragraph. Well played, you're right, nicely done.

I'm unfamiliar with the district in question, but I'm willing to listen about the way they report their data. All I can offer is anecdotal evidence (not strong stuff, I admit) based on my own experience. From what I've seen, I have a hard time believing the 17:1 aspect; I've seen similar figures for my district, and it's in no way accurate of an average classroom.

Even though we might not see eye to eye on some things, I'm so grateful for your posts. It's rare to find someone online who actually wants to talk things over, rather than mindlessly tear down anybody who dares to disagree. Kudos, my friend!

Welcome to Obama's vision for America. And he wants another stimulus for yet more teachers, which shouldn't be a function of the federal government anyway

That is what most people do not understand, The stimulus was a temporary fix to a chronic problem, These public sector unions have priced themselves above what the local communities can afford to pay. The people who reside in these communities can not afford the salaries,benefits and pensions of the public sector employees.

Isn't it the tecacher who is in charge of the classroom? If he/she can't do it, they're lousy teachers and deserve to be fired, period.

Because I don't want to support them. We used to joke that the younger generation was so dumbed down that they would never be able to take our jobs. That was a mistake. We need trained minds for the future. A 50% graduation rate won't do. The Unions do not care a wit about the children. Chicago, and Illinois in general, should be a warning to the rest of the country.

Part of our problem is people forget that most jobs anymore don't require a large workforce. When you include the world-wide expanding population, there are more people competing for the majority of jobs that no longer require a large workforce.

Technology has made it possible to do more with less. Population size must decrease (rapidly) or things will get much worse. Even if governments accept reality, it is going to be a rough ride for many decades.

For the most part our governments should have seen this coming and taken steps much earlier to minimize the painful path that we will have to travel.

So in other words, you hate all parties involved no matter which side they are on?

argumentativebutfair #15.4,

If your comment was directed towards me, in the earlier years of our great country, we would not be in the mess that we find ourselves in NOW. The people would not have allowed the government to spend like we do nowadays, they would NOT of allowed the government to runup a "tab" like we have now. We would not have allowed our military to be used, like we do nowadays.

Unions are pricing themselves out of business, The taxpayers can no longer afford to pay the generous salaries,benefits and pensions of these unions, What part of a community can only afford so much do you not understand, People are losing their homes because they can not afford to pay their mortgages and property taxes .

Are you also demanding that WalMart lower it's profits because "a community can only afford so much"? Are you demanding that doctors lower their fees? Are you demanding that the Ceo of United Health who makes close to $200 million a year lower his salary and benfits? Are you demanding that the bankers make less money? Are you demanding that the local car dealer makes less profit on each car and doesn't live in a mansion? Are you even demanding that the CEO's who drove Hostess into bankruptcy not be paid millions in bonuses as a reward for their incompetence?

I believe the answer to all these questions is: NO, you are not. You are simply demanding that teachers bear the burden of a recession economy.

I do not have to demand that any of those for profit businesses lower their prices because I am not forced to patronize them, I have a choice, I can go shop somewhere else,However in case you have not noticed many businesses have lowered their prices in order to try to remain competitive, I have no choice when it comes to property taxes due to the cost of education. Further this was not brought about by the recession, This has been a growing problem, Population flight from cities,urban areas and even states is and has been occuring because of the high taxes caused in part by public sector unions and their negotiated salaries,benefits,healthcare and pensions.

Communities can only afford so much, People are losing their homes because they can not afford to pay their mortgages and property taxes, When that happens those that can still afford to leave go to areas with lower taxes, Those that can not afford to leave include people that are already receiving some type of public assistance, That leaves the tax burden on those who remained and businesses, Sooner or later even the people who wanted to stay and the business are forced to leave or go bankrupt.

Seriously.

As a resident of Wisconsin, I can correct you and tell from your post that you DID NOT pay attention to what the issues were in this state. Scott Walker was the best thing to happen to WI in a long time. Do some research on what his policies were actually about. Anyone with any kind of common sense can see that he did what was best for this state.

• !

#19.4 - Tue Dec 4, 2012 2:14 PM CST

You know I thought you were serious until I got to the Biden part.

LMAO Thanks for my morning laugh

The unions are doing a great job of busting themselves, They are pricing themselves out of business.

LOL...Boden in 2016...Dumb Joe can not even remember what state he is.

But he says what he means & means what he says no matter what he................. What were we talking about?

san antonio kid

He pandered to every group known to man for their votes. It is now time for him to pay up. Unions, Gays, minorities, women, you name it. He is going to be very busy & need a lot of money. I am sure he will be right on those things after vacation , golfing & all his fun stuff.