Vivian, elaborate

...unless you are just being incredibly provocative and totally ignorant.

RwEvans,

The Catholic church did not even exist in Jesus's time....try again.

Troy, I was making fun, still, as the chruch came into power they were no diff than the scribes that set jesus up to be killed, the church went from being the persacuted to the persacutors. they became what they hated most or what hated them the most...the same thread of idea we still see today. The church today is screaming out against Muslims...My church had them over for thanksgiving dinner...Go fig.

Most of the time Vivian just trolls.

Oh Vivian your trolling comments usually inspire so much more hatred towards you than this. I'm clearly disappointed I would've expected something a bit stronger. lol

LOL...well beth, there is always one.

Yeah, and a great deal of Christians are killing Jesus's message. Your point???

I point to exhibit A, the post below this one.

Back to the topic. This was the action of little children ( 6 to 60 years old, it doesn't matter) that are so afraid of .... Well everything, that they strike out at anything that scares them. Even though that thing/person has never done anything to harm them.

Timothy, how can atheists hate god if they don't believe God exists?

Jim,

Touche.

"you killed Jesus"

When confronted by someone saying "you killed Christ" a Jewish friend of mine used to reply "no we didn't, we killed Jesus."

Don't screw with Special Forces guys, you will usually get an unexpected and highly inappropriate, but well deserved response.

When I was in Catholic elementary school, we were taught that the Jewish people were our elder brothers and sisters deserving of our respect. All people were created equal under the eyes of God and that the message of Christ was one of love and acceptance. When one desecrates a Menorah, one goes against what Christ taught.

Ah, more "ignorant atheist" comments. Does it occur to anyone that the supposed "believer" who vandalized this menorah (and I'll bet you that it was not an atheist!) did it under the cover of night when no one was around - yes, that's right - no one, in the opinion of this hypocritical "believer," was there to witness?

My "Christian" neighbor did the same thing: threw garbage onto our property and vandalized our fence at night, then bitched about living next door to college-educated atheists who kept their property nice and who kept to themselves. Unfortunately for her, our cameras caught her in the act and I called the police after she threatened us physically, and I showed the cops the video. Hypocrite was humiliated in front of the whole neighborhood. We sold our house at a considerable profit and moved away.

Put a camera on this menorah as well.

The Jews convicted Christ. The Romans killed him afterwards.

Crucifixion was a Roman method of execution. The Jews could not crucify anyone.

Well said Motz....I'll second that.

ok, vivian...at least that was a little funny...kinda.

Vivian,

I have no shame. That was hilarious.

Amused muse..Madalyn Murray O'Hair, In 1995 she was kidnapped, murdered, and her body mutilated, along with her son Jon Murray and granddaughter Robin Murray O'Hair, by former American Atheist office manager David Roland Waters.

Again, it isn't religion, its human nature that causes people to do the worse things to one another...your neighbors weren't christians, they were just jerks with the misleading label.

Lol Vivian for once That was actually pretty funny. I hate to say I'm snickering over here, but I am... just a little. And jim you are right Athiests don't hate God they just don't believe one exists. There is nothing wrong with that. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs.

I have no shame. That was hilarious.

It was. My wife used that one on a colleague that she did not like after he told a Hitler joke. He was sweating bullets until she delivered the punch line because they both worked for the Bundeswehr and what he said if reported was grounds for immediate termination.

Not that i think this is right in anyway, but didn't the they stake him to the cross, as the roman's washed there hands of the whole thing.

As a Jew, who personally doesn't quite believe in religion (however, given the history of Judaism and everything my people have gone through I am proud to be Jewish), I truly do find it offensive when people try and place the blame of Jesus' crucifixion (a fellow Jew, may I remind you) on us. First of all, if what has been written and passed down generation to generation is indeed correct, it was the Romans.

Everyone does need to be reminded, however, that the Bible was written by man, and very well could have been (and most likely was) exaggerated in one way or many. Clearly, it is impossible that everything written in that book actually happened. It spans thousands of years, and little to no proof has been provided to support a very good portion of it. But again, if what it says just so happens to actually be the truth, and that is a very big "IF", it was the Romans, and to place the blame on us Jews is just ignorant, disgusting, and downright rude.

That is all.

concerning Vivian, most atheists are exceptionally ignorant.

Spoken like a truly ignorant man. Now go back to believing a man could walk on water and feed a "multitude" with a bucket of KFC. That is truly ignorant. God "the father" killed Jesus it was his plan WASN'T IT? John 3:16 right?

Absolutely amazing how any article that has anything to do with any religious hints in the headline brings out the unbelievers and naysayers like moths hurtling themselves into the flames like they can't wait to get there. ***yawn***

ON TOPIC finding the vandal dope that committed this hateful crime and getting him the help that he needs might wake his ass up before he graduates to hate crimes that can't be fixed with just paint remover.

" Timothy1Mil said - Troy, concerning Vivian, most atheists are exceptionally ignorant. Not only do they hate God, they want everyone else to share their bigotry."

First of all, I don't know or care whether or not Vivian is an atheist nor have I followed her comments here, but I must comment on your general statement about atheists. Google "Atheists, agnostics most knowledgeable about religion, survey says" and then read at one of the many links.

Second, I don't hate anyone, least of all an imaginary super friend in the sky, but I do dislike the stupidity shown quite often by those who need an "immortality clause" insurance policy in their lives by believing in bronze age myths.

Anyway, everyone is an atheist when it comes to the large number of different deities worshiped in the past. The faithful are simply those who believe in one of the number of gods in vogue today.

@Troy: "RwEvans, The Catholic church did not even exist in Jesus's time....try again." No, but the Roman pagans did. Unfortunately for the Jews, pizza is more popular than chicken soup. People need to blame their own peceived insecurities and failures on others and religion is a means for them to do so. Religion is the bane of human existence - always was; always will be.

The kid that did this is obviously ignorant. If he is a Christian then he knows that if whoever killed Jesus had not done so then there would be no Christians. The death, burial and rising from the dead is what saves us and makes us Christians. The world in unfolding exactly as it should.

This is just pure vandalism.

@devils son;

God "the father" killed Jesus it was his plan WASN'T IT? John 3:16 right?

Jesus was part of God in the flesh. God in his spiritual form can not be near sin. Jesus told his disciples that one would betray him. So yes it was in the plan. God could not kill his own son. The main reason for all of this was so that God did not have to destroy all he created and loved in the beginning to rid the world of sin, once Adam and Eve had fallen from grace and perfection. The plan of resurrection and sacrifice for us was created and foretold many times in the OT. The necessary way to cleanse us so we can be before God.

This goes along with having faith. God would not be satisfied creating "forced love" or worship this would make the whole point of our creation moot. Free will is given so true love and compassion can be recieved by God.

The choice is yours to make.

GM Basil.

Unfortunately for the Jews, pizza is more popular than chicken soup.

Well, pizza is great for parties and football games and late night snacks and even for those times when you just don't feel like cooking but when you feel the need for comfort food or healing food when you're sick, what's better than chicken soup???

Have a great day. ☺

Tim, most christians are exceptionally ignorant. Not only do they hate athiests, they want everyone else to share their bigotry. Yeah...I think this statement is a little more accurate considering the hateful things you people get up to on a daily basis.

Not saying all christians are bad...just the ones like you.

I don't know what happened in this particular case but it reminds me of how confusing religion can be. There actually is a side of Christianity that believes Jews killed Christ and deserve some sort of eternal punishment for it-despite the fact that the punishment is in direct violation of Jesus' teachings to love each other, the fact that Jesus was a Jew himself and the fact that Christianity itself began as a sect of Judaism.

Then there's the other side of Christianity that believes Jews are God's chosen and that Israel must be supported even if, apparently, that support seriously harms the United States.

Glad I'm agnostic and this act of vandalism does little to change my view.

@Devils Son: The magician Criss Angel walked on water. Perhaps he's God.

@reaper;

Not only do they hate athiests

Impossible a true Christian has no hate in their heart. I have debated atheists for years and I hate not one of them, even when they call me names or make derragatory remarks such as yours.

Atheists are welcome in any church on any given Sunday, regardless of if they ever become saved or not.

You sir sound like the true hater.

Hey Chef: Always good to hear from you. And as always, an enlightening post.

The city of Nazareth was excavated by researchers who found no evidence of anything written in the Bible, only the remains of the city well. Hills and cliffs mentioned in the Bible are non-existent, and would not have been eroded in a mere 2000 years. Its becoming more and more apparant that Jesus never existed and is a figment of the vivid imagination of those who wanted to control the minds of the masses and have effectively done so for hundreds of years. Religion is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated against humanity!

Basil,

"Religion is the bane of human existence - always was; always will be."

I certainly believe that if defined as "something that continually causes problems or misery".

But you will not get me to believe for a second that God is responsible for the actions of men. We were given free will and with it a huge responsibility.

Men distort the word of God to bend the masses to their own will.

I'll add that pizza gives me heart burn. I'd rather have chicken soup..lol.

@standingwave - certain archdiocese were still teaching that the Jews would burn in hell for killing Jesus well after Vatican II. I went to school in the 80s and my Catholic friends were specifically taught that during CCD and encouraged to make me see the error of my ways by "coming to Christ".

Then there's the other side of Christianity that believes Jews are God's chosen and that Israel must be supported even if, apparently, that support seriously harms the United States.

Actually, those others believe Jews and Jerusalem are chosen to fulfill their doomsday prophecy. I think they need Jerusalem to be under Jewish control and 144,000 of us to burn there for rejecting Jesus. Those Christian fundamentalist Israel supporters still hate Jews and think of us as "Christ Killers"; do not confuse their support of Israel with support of Jews (just as I caution people not to confuse Jews/Judaism with Israel/Israeli government).

But you will not get me to believe for a second that God is responsible for the actions of men. We were given free will and with it a huge responsibility.

Yes we were. Agreed, Troy. Some men and women take their responsibility more serious than others as evidenced just in this act of hateful vandalism. I really hope that these were kids that get caught soon and get their lives turned around for the better to create good. Destruction is so easy. Creation takes hard work.

You all are amateur hour....I was waiting for someone to blame the Jews for the creating the vandalism themselves so they could garner sympythy.

@Troy: "But you will not get me to believe for a second that God is responsible for the actions of men. We were given free will and with it a huge responsibility." I agree fully. What concerns me is that a large minority of people on this planet will use religion as an excuse to engage in criminal activity, including commission of horrific crimes. In that sense I believe religion is the bane of human existence. I certainly respect those who use religion to better their own lives as well as the lives of others.

@trancotech;

The bible can prove itself in some parts empirically,which means it must have replicating evidence,which it does ,the dead sea scrolls for one example,and many other archaeological artifacts that match with scripture,cities,kings names. So I would not call the bible myth,as it can and has proved itself.
You must not compare parables to myths,as these are stories to make a point more than to prove the happenings in the parable.ie The message is what you should look for more than if it was real,or ever happened.

These are things you can see touch and feel,no myths.The findings on the walls of cities outside of Jerusalem match scripture,as does the tomb with Jesus' brothers name on it dated right around the time the bible says he was entombed.There is much more.
This is much more than "because the bible tells me so"this is irrefutable tangible evidence.

Check it for yourself.

Yes the Jews and Romans did fullfill prophecy, what one must realize,(if you believe in Christ),is that they were all forgiven, God forsaked Jesus to his demise,hence the silence of Jesus,on trial,or being questioned by Pontius.

I would not say they deserve praise,but this also did not earn them hell.

SAICS,all I can say is these people must be severly conflicted. Good point though, about confusing Jews with the secular nation of Israel. It's a distinction many seem not to make.

Vivian,

I just caught this one;

"I know but its still a sensitive subject for me, my grandfather was killed at Dachau"

Please do not judge Christians for this. The Nazis were not Christian...they were pure evil and willing to use any means required to murder Jews the world over. Unfortunately they found a way to use Christianity to that end. Just a thought for you to consider....Adolf Hitler, and the entire Nazi High Command for that matter, were not particularly religious at all! They saw religion as a control mechanism however and were considering the best "control mechanism" in their vision of a Third Reich.

May God bless your grandfather as he and all who went the way he did will not be forgot by us ever! The Holocaust will not be forgotten by any of us Americans!

Chefaz and Basil,

Glad you guys joined us. I think I misunderstood the "Bane" comment for a second as a smack down. Only reason I attempted to smack back...lol.

Still going with chicken soup over pizza.

..moving on. These haters are starting to bore me....I can't even get a good debate stirred up....just hate for eachother...lol.

Troy,

Go read Vivianne's last post. It'll clear things up for you.

Troy...Vivian, is one of NewsVine's most beloved trolls. If you'll click on Vivian,'s name and go to her homepage to read her previous comments, you'll see what I mean but at least go back to post 1.20. I gave you a vote for effort, anyway. :)

Vivian, Pearl Harbor day is coming up soon. I'll be sure to drink a toast to your "grandfather". Hope he liked vodka.

standingwave said:

There actually is a side of Christianity that believes Jews killed Christ and deserve some sort of eternal punishment for it-despite the fact that the punishment is in direct violation of Jesus' teachings to love each other, the fact that Jesus was a Jew himself and the fact that Christianity itself began as a sect of Judaism.

And despite the fact that the Pope himself has decried that interpretation of scripture in the Nostra Aetate, a Papal Bull issued by Pope Paul vi, on 10/28/1965:

Since the spiritual patrimony common to Christians and Jews is thus so great, this sacred synod wants to foster and recommend that mutual understanding and respect which is the fruit, above all, of biblical and theological studies as well as of fraternal dialogues.

True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;(13) still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ.

Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.

Besides, as the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation. It is, therefore, the burden of the Church's preaching to proclaim the cross of Christ as the sign of God's all-embracing love and as the fountain from which every grace flows.

5. We cannot truly call on God, the Father of all, if we refuse to treat in a brotherly way any man, created as he is in the image of God. Man's relation to God the Father and his relation to men his brothers are so linked together that Scripture says: "He who does not love does not know God" (1 John 4:8).

No foundation therefore remains for any theory or practice that leads to discrimination between man and man or people and people, so far as their human dignity and the rights flowing from it are concerned.

The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion. On the contrary, following in the footsteps of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, this sacred synod ardently implores the Christian faithful to "maintain good fellowship among the nations" (1 Peter 2:12), and, if possible, to live for their part in peace with all men, so that they may truly be sons of the Father who is in heaven.

NOBODY KILLED JESUS!!! He voluntarily laid down his life for us so could grant us salvation. It was the ultimate act of love!

Don't you realize that I could ask my Father for thousands of angels to protect us, and he would send them instantly? Matthew 26:53

It is interesting to read all these comments especially from fellow Christians. The New Testament clearly states that Jesus was a Jew, the Jewish church leaders were jealous of him because the Jewish crowds were following him, so they trumped up some charges against him and handed him over to the Romans to be crucified. The Jewish church leaders told Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor, that Jesus claimed he was a king and that the Jews had no king except Caesar (who they actually hated since Rome had conquered them). The Jewish people did not kill Jesus or plot to kill Jesus. The Jewish church leaders set him up and the Romans actually crucified him.

People that persecute the Jewish community for killing Jesus are way off base.

And anyway, the Bible says that the Jews are "God's first-born" and that He loves them. Whether these bigoted graffiti artists like or not.

Sarah-3043284
Troy,

Go read Vivianne's

chefaz-1319563
Troy...Vivian, is one of

Nice going you two now we will never know how long it would have taken him to catch on.

If anyone of you ever read a Bible for your self and didn't just take what a preacher told you, You would know the Jews did Kill Jesus. Jesus was calling the Jewish Hi Priest out for living in Sin according to God. These men were living Lavishly, they took young virgins for themselves. These were the biggest sinners on earth, but no one dared to stand up to them, then came Jesus and he called them what they were, well they couldn't have that, so they plotted to have Jesus killed, and they got the Romans to do the deed. If you read the Bible you know Jesus Healed the sick, made the blind see, he brought John back form the dead, and on and on, But no matter what he did, people still didn't believe he was the son of God. Satin had a lot to do what that. Now we all know that no one could have killed Jesus. And I like others do not believe that Jesus Died for our sins. Does anyone really believe that they can sin, ask for forgiveness and be forgiven, and just go back to sinning. Really. Jesus did to make his final point to show that he was the son of God. So to put it plan and simple. The Jews were just playing there part in this. Just like the Romans played there part.

Chuck,

The Jewish church leaders in Jerusalem plotted to kill Jesus. The Jesus community as a whole did not.

Do you also blame all white people for black slavery in America? Not everyone owned slaves, ya know.

People who blame the Jews for killing Jesus, what is it that they think they know? If Jesus hadn't suffered and died, the world would remain unredeemed, and dwelling in darkness, under the power of corruption. Yes, their unbelief and considering themselves as more important than the work of God is the cause for their condemnation on that day that Jesus spoke of, when God will judge this earth by generations. Yet it was the express plan of God that He be put to death for the redemption of mankind, and all creation.

And fact is, any who blame the Jews for killing Jesus do not know Jesus, nor walk in His ways. This act of vandalism on the menorah is nothing but a demonic work, and is not the righteousness of God.

Timothy,

"Troy, concerning Vivian, most atheists are exceptionally ignorant. Not only do they hate God, they want everyone else to share their bigotry."

Come on bud. First of all you can't hate something you don't believe in. Plus, you know this is not true. You cannot apply a blanket statement like that to any group of people.

Chefaz,

Typical Christian rhetoric. If an Atheist was accused of this then they have the right to defend themselves.

As for your 'moth to the flame' comment, "christians" are more rabid defenders of their opinion, because they think their beliefs are true, and expect all arguments to begin by stipulating that God exists.

WRONG!!!!!

Sarah and Chefaz,

Thanks. I must have missed the joke and caught the end I guess...lol. In that case, I will in the future steer clear of that one. It is not something I am used to hearing jokes about. That is a terrible joke....plain terrible!

I hope he fell on a pitchfork!

Even Solomon said - paraphrased: there is corruption in the justice system - the judges are corrupt.

It wasn't the jewish PEOPLE who killed Jesus it was the Judges - the sanhedrin. They are the ones who decided to kill Jesus instead of the criminal.

Not only that but this was supposed to happen. According to the Old Testament in many scriptures it fortold of the Messiah - Jesus - and even described how he would be betrayed and killed. It was the plan for the redemption of mankind. Just think - all you who blame the Jews - If he had not died for all our sins you would be going to hell even if you did repent. We have to thank God that he was crusified for our salvation. He shed His blood for us.

The people were the followers of Jesus and besides that guess what? Jesus was a Jew. Yes, a Jew, he was born in the country owned by the Jewish people but were now under the control of the Romans.

Think about it - Jesus died for you (all you Jew haters) so that you wouldn't have to pay the ultimate price for your own sins - death for eternity! He had to die! It was the plan of Salvation - he shed his blood for YOUR sins.

I was a staunch atheist for most of my life. Six months ago I read a book called "Evidence of the Afterlife" by oncologist Dr. Jeffrey Long. The book is about Near Death Experiences. I used to believe these were just hallucinations of a dying brain, WRONG.

Dr. Long has done clinical research into NDE's. Among the evidence he provides of an afterlife, the one thing that even scientists cannot explain concerning a dying brain: When some people were CLINICALLY DEAD their conscience/spirit left their bodies and traveled great distances to observe what was going on with their family members, etc. miles away. When these people were resuscitated, they were able to describe in great detail, what happened miles and miles away from their dead bodies. This convinced me there is an afterlife. There is so much more evidence in the book also. Sorry atheists, as a former one I was wrong, there is life after death.

The ONE thing that all these people who come back from clinical death have to say about meeting God: He doesn't care about religion, he just wants people to LOVE one another and be kind and helpful to your fellow human beings, that's it, nothing more. He doesn't even judge you, you judge yourself before him. He just emanates pure LOVE.

First, Jews dont have (and never DID have), churches.

We had Temples and synagogues.

Second, (and I know this will offend, but is not meant to), Jews take (and took, at the time), our Torah (Old Test.) VERY seriously. It calls for the death of anyone who claims to be Messiah. According to one school, Jesus did exactly that; thus, he Blasphemed and WOULD have (rightfully) been put to death. The FACT is, that, in order for the Sanhedrin (Jewish court at the time) to impose the death penalty, there had to have been TWO eye-witnesses to the Blasphemy. There were none, thus lending credence to the conclusion that Jesus never DID claim to be the son of G-d (other than, perhaps colloquy that we are ALL G-d's children). HAD he done so, the Sanhedrin WOULD have, PROUDLY, ordered his death. In either case, Pochus Pilote ordered Jesus' crucifixion - NOT the Jews.

As to the fallacy of scripture that Jesus was, indeed, the Messaiah, one need only look at G-D's promise as to what would happen WHEN Messiah comes - NONE of those prophesies have taken place, thus lending credence to the Jewish way, that Messiah has not yet come.

Finally, as to the Claim that Jesus was, indeed, the Messiah, and all the prophesies WILL come true WHEN he rises again, this flies in the face of Scripture. In order to believe that, one would have to believe that, Jesus lived. Then he dies (on the cross); then he rose (and, supposedly died once again, unless you believe he's lived all this time) ; and, finally, that he will, ONCE AGAIN, live. (or, if you're Mormon, that he died on the cross, came back to life, and traveled to North America, THEN dies and WILL rise again.

I'm sorry, but, in either case, he seems to "rise" more often than a 16 year old boy on Viagra.

A "purist" would believe that G-d's word is true. That, since NONE of the prophesies of what will happen when Messiah comes, have NOT yet occurred, that Messiah has and had, not yet come.

Us Agnostics (and Moderate voters) get no respect in the Black and White world many of you live in. I'll take my belief in spirituality without religion any day over being an unbalanced Black and/or White believer.

If I ever do have to pick a spiritual philosophy - it will be Buddhism - balance and logic is worth striving for - not some made up crap that people are willing to kill over.

PS; what the heck is a Menorah? Don't answer that, I don't really care what it is...don't care why Catholics eat saltines either.

Not only do they hate God,

do you believe in the tooth fairy? then that is obviously because you hate the tooth fairy and deny her existence.

hard to hate something that has no evidence of existence

Two thousand years and they're still getting mileage out of this nonsense... Don't they realize that Jesus was a Jewish rabbi who may well have led a revolt against the Romans and against those who collaborated with the Romans? He probably celebrated Chanukah himself.

In certain nations Christian churches -- and Christians ourselves -- are being destroyed by the same kind of people who do these things here in our country in the present day --- not two thousand years ago.

Guys, two recent Popes have said that the Jews cannot be blamed for the death of Jesus. So if any Catholicss want to think differently...well, they can't be very good ones.

And as for the menorah, JP...it celebrates one of the Biblical events that are historical too...because it celebrates the Maccabees who revolted against the Hellenistic Empire.

If Jesus had gone to medical school, just as his mother would've wanted, none of this silly bickering would be happening now.

In certain nations Christian churches -- and Christians ourselves -- are being destroyed by the same kind of people who do these things here in our country in the present day --- not two thousand years ago.

and where are "christians and/or christian churches" being "destroyed" here in the US?

Patches,

you might try looking at a menorah on purely ascetic grounds. some are very artistic and beautiful.

"In the beginning, man created god.....and all of his questions were answered."

Religion is the root of all evil. My imaginary friend can beat up your imaginary friend. My god told me that you are a heathen unless you believe what I believe. The hate...the wars...the misery it has caused...and it goes on and on....

God was fashioned after a male alpha patriarch who died and then other greedy men used association and transference to usurp the dead tribal elder's wealth and power. The next important step of the inbred infinitely greedy war profiteering monetary system monopolizing wasted sperm of humanity took place at the Counsel of Nicaea. That is where the narcissistic sociopaths of the day combined the religion they adapted from the Sumerians with military governmental police state might and monetary system monopoly. Let's look at Judeo-Christian-Islamic, aka Abrahamic religion, for what it is. For the Rabbi to admit that certain Jews believe they are god's chosen people would be a start. That is prejudice and they killed people of my heritage if they did not give up their Germanic Scandinavian gods and nature worship for over a thousand years. They killed the followers of Karl Marx (a Jew) or more rightfully followers of Friedrich Engles and communism. Some of them, Wall street Jews financed Hitler because communism was a threat to their rule. Also the Catholic Church and Swiss bankers, some of them Jewish, remained neutral to profit off of the war and the Holocaust. Now Jesus, he was a Hebrew aka Jew himself so the defacer of the religious symbol, idol, actually attacked Jesus. Now let us translate the story of Jesus: god came down and impregnated Mary with his magic wand out of wedlock and since Mary could have been killed from becoming pregnant without a husband, that act is certainly rape. Then he, god, took off and left poor Joseph to have sloppy seconds and take care of his child. He never paid any child support and made Jesus a Bastard. Now believe it or not I do my best to respect all religions, even god centered brainwashing ones that get you to submit to the infinitely greedy power tripping men that like to diddle little boys. I believe that nature is the higher power, although I sometimes refer to nature as a female to counteract the patriarchy I know the universe is a force beyond male and female attributes and anthropomorphic folklore. I worship the probability of homo sapiens chances of evolving to a point where we will be able to connect with all time space and matter simultaneously through a vibration or reflection sort of property that we have not yet been able to connect with, partially because of the god centered religious brainwashing designed to provide a hierarchy of wealth and power to a few families over all humans and nature itself. There are not even any good words to describe a natural humanistic religion that is organized horizontally rather than vertically with a collective effort of all humanity to become eternal together through becoming part of the universe becoming aware of itself. I include all humans in this belief, even Jews so all they have to do is stop with their gods chosen supreme race Hitler like fluff and join us like Leon Trotski and the many other humanistic loving tolerant open minded Jewish people even today. So if you want to go off and label me anti-Semitic like many do, have at it; you will only be fooling yourself. What I have outlined here is the next and last necessary philosophy of life. This is what we need to establish voluntary human population control, egalitarian principles that no longer concentrate wealth and power into the hands of infinitely greedy sociopaths who care nothing about the future and potential of humanity to become eternal beings together, no god necessary. I call it Futuristic Naturalism...

I think Anti-Jewish sentiment in any form is doing history an injustice... Read your old testament, Jesus was the perfect Lamb without sin, that needed to be sacrificed to take the sins of the world, more importantly, the original sin of Adam and Eve's descendants and obtain power over the grave. Therefore, the Jewish people were honored with the crucial part of the equation... If Christ didn't die, our sins wouldn't be forgiven and we would be eternally separated from God Almighty, who is without sin... What saddens me the most, is there are over 100 biblical prophecies regarding to the Messiah specifically relating to Israel and her people.. Jesus Christ has fulfilled every prophecy,including raising people from the dead, and yet the Jewish nation sees "Jesus Christ" as a great prophet only.. What other prophet in the history of this world even comes close to the miracles performed by Christ, not to mention the fulfillment of every prophecy of the Messiah. So, the Jewish Nation continues to wait for a Messiah that has already been here.. How sad is that! Faithful to God Almighty they may be.. However, it was the perfect sacrifice of the Son that opens the doors of Heaven...

@Vivian - please don't play the Holocaust card. That's old news. And do remember that 6 million non-Jews were also killed in those camps. And do remember that many people risked their own lives to save Jews, either hid them or helped smuggle them to freedom. By the way, the first groups to be targeted for extermination were the Gypsies, crippled and firm people, and mentally retarded - who stood up for them while they were disposed of? Everyone including the Jews turned a blind eye to that.

Ah yes Ronzwyf: "The hand of the almighty", watch and listen on youtube: All you have to do is copy, " youtu.be/XLwtqwnI6ko " and paste it into a search engine. It will come right up and everything you need to know to be saved is there. Happy Holidays to All!

And you also deserve some thanks, MN...for your vicious, vile, Jew baiting lies, which makes it clear why Israel is needed.

Jeff, sorry I called the Jewish Sanhedrin "church" leaders. Yes, I should have said "temple" instead.

But, as for prophecies, actually Jesus fulfilled around 400 prophecies from the Old Testament concerning the coming Messiah! They are all found in the New Testament and are listed on the internet if you are interested. In fact, those fulfilled prophecies are some of the best indicators of him being the Messiah.

One of the best prophecies that he fulfilled is found in Isaiah 53.

FloridaMaggie says: " please don't play the Holocaust card"

I wonder if that person knows just how obscene her statement is. Judging from some of her other comments I would guess that she is a local Troll.

Lori W;

The more ornate a religious symbol is the more likely it is that another religion will deface it. I live by the Mission in Tucson - they went so far overboard with their decorations (inside) that it is creepy now. That place would have freaked me out back when I was a little kid.

When I first got a computer and started posting to the Everett Heralds forum - the hot topic was the Ten Commandments on the courthouse lawn - should it stay or go. Too bad the major medias bought up all the small newspapers around 2001, and shut down all the local forums - that topic would still be getting comments.

Jew-baiting??? Is that a new extreme sport?

OMG, are you guys upset that Voldemort killed Harry Potter's parents, too? News Flash: Jesus is/was/always will be FICTIONAL. Do a little friggin' research, idiots. Also suggest you Jesus lovers re-read the bible...as portrayed by the Bible Jesus was a racist, misogynistic, ignorant fool. If you take your moralistic lead from Jesus, you should really just kill yourself and go join him in super awesome happy land. Don't forget your E-tickets!

Jesus Hates Figs!

I was going to write a post, then i read all of yours, then I felt, why bother?

Thank you Cassandra: Although I never mentioned your name once until now. I did write: "join us like Leon Trotski and the many other humanistic loving tolerant open minded Jewish people even today. So if you want to go off and label me anti-Semitic like many do, have at it; you will only be fooling yourself." is what I wrote in comment #1.77 So obviously this does not apply to you? Why would you take offense at want can easily be proven about certain Jews as well as all races of the Satan (mammon)$ worshipers in Hebrew and Christian clothing? Other than all the stuff you called me personally I really don't place you in the latter. Happy Hanukkah already.

Given the past history of jews attacking themselves so they can illicit sympathy and blame it on someone else, I'd say its 50/50 that the rabbi did it.

Cassandra,

Given the past history of jews attacking themselves so they can illicit sympathy and blame it on someone else, I'd say its 50/50 that the rabbi did it.

Now THAT'S anti-semitic. Unless it was sarcasm, in which case an emoticon or something would have been helpful.

Unfortunately, Silverton, you quote from the "New" Testament - which was written hundreds of years after Jesus' death. NONE of the authors were percipient.

Further still, the MAIN prophecies have not happened; thus. IF you believe in G-d, and IF you believe in the same "Testament" that Jesus did, then Jesus could NOT have been the Messiah...either that or you thing G-d lied.

Most Atheists are simply anti-______. (Fill in the ONE religion they have rejected) They are just as ignorant as those who embraced, without question, the religion they were taught as a child.

Not surprised. Organized Christian institutions don't endorse, engage in or promote the senseless vandalism and grafitti, especially with symbols and messages designed to inflict maximum possible emotional manipulation. If anything, what is shown here is as anti-Christian as it is anti-Jewish in that it pretends to be a Christian perspective that is patently untrue. In that way it also inflicts the maximum possible emotional manipulation of Christians as well. If anything, I would bet good money that the people who do this want nothing more than to poke everyone else with a big emotional stick and then stand back and watch the emotive holy wars. It's a sick form of entertainment. The best reaction to this kind of deliberate provocation is to recognize it for what it is, criminal vandalism, move on from there and not give the provacateurs their entertainment.

Best comment in this thread, jim. Thanks.

Oh, no, Jeff, that is not correct at all.

Although it is popular among atheists and some others like yourself to claim that the New Testament gospels and epistles were written hundreds of years after Jesus lived, almost every scholar of ancient manuscripts agrees that they were written within a few decades after his death. Paul's epistles were actually written first and written to people who were already believers. The first four gospels were written as the first generation was gradually dying out and the first Christians wanted to preserve the information for generations to come.

Actually, they are wonderful historical accounts. Of course, whether you believe what they say about Jesus being the Messiah is up to the individual.

Someone had to kill Jesus so we could be forgiven for our sins.

Sarah304
""Now THAT'S anti-semitic. Unless it was sarcasm, in which case an emoticon or something would have been helpful.""
It cant be anti semitic because the jews arent semites. They are not the descendants of Shem. Christ Said in plain language. "Ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye shall do."
That should clear the matter up. If you need any further schooling on who or what the jews are just post something and I will be in touch.

Technically, christians should be thanking whoever killed the Jesus. Without them, his prophesied death and resurrection would never have happened.

But everyone knows it was the Mormons who killed Jesus, not the Jews.

dumb, dumb dumb dumb dumb

trolin trollin trollin trollin trollin

Technically, christians should be thanking whoever killed the Jesus. Without them, his prophesied death and resurrection would never have happened.

Yep.

Evil is point of view. Evil can be good.

Seriously,

Why are you guys calling SRMcMahon a dumb troll (to paraphrase)?

His comment didn't seem trollish at all.

Yep Hambone: Yes it is great that the Jews killed Jesus because that is how all the rest of us became goyim. That is why certain Jews, not all Jews are involved in the monetary system monopoly and war profiteering to this day. Besides Jesus said you should chop off your arm if to offends the Jewish god and poke your eyes out if you look at a Jewish woman. Jesus brought a sword. Jesus came only for the lost sheep of Israel not the goyim. Lot had sex INCEST with his daughters. Moses took all the gold wedding bands of the rest of the Jews so him and his invisible buddy could do as they pleased with it. You can beat a Jewish slave only so hard that he can get up and walk the next day but you can kill a goyim slave outright if he disobeys you. God wrecked Job's life in just about every way possible on a bet with the devil. After Jesus split off to hang with his pedophile rapist dad all his followers turned into communists. The Bible is a great book, you should read it sometime...

MNSlim,

Not understanding your point.

I have read the bible. Even studied it for quite some time.

You sound mad at Jews.

You might wanna calm down and have some dip.

So Hambone: I wrote: "That is why certain Jews, not all Jews are involved in the monetary system monopoly and war profiteering to this day.", comment # 2.6. Ah, are you saying you are mad at Karl Marx than? As history has it he was of Jewish decent and I defended his socialism, anarchist nature and atheist outlook on life. So by you saying, "you sound mad at Jews" does that mean you are bigoted because you include the actions and words of a few people and apply them to the whole ethnic heritage indiscriminately?

Still not sure on your point.

I am actually a huge fan of Jewish culture and even have a tiny bit of Jewish heritage.

I think their religion is dumb. Just like I think the christian religion, muslim religion, hindu religion and pretty much all the others are dumb, too.

But I'm not taking the words of a few people and applying it to the whole group. At least, I don't see where I did. If I did, sorry.

Plus, my first post was kind of a joke. I thought it was obvious, but apparently not.

My fave saying is "I have nothing against God, it's just his fan club I can't stand."

Hell, I'm Christian and that statement is almost tempting to steal as my own.

We are not all out to force God onto everybody. The power to do that rests completely in the hands of religious governments such as Egypt has!

Yes, Judaism predates Christianity. The Old Testament of Christian faith is actually the Torah (one and only Judaistic religious book).

I dont understand religion either. Christians take the Jewish book and call it their own. Then the Romans kill Jesus becuase he was too happy for them and too many people liked him (the Romans killed anything that they thought would hurt their empire). They crusified him as they did many, many, many (did I say many?) people they captured. Then the Christians blame it on the Jews (in modern times anyway) even though Jesus was a Jew and didn't believe he was the son of god. He just wanted people to be happy and respectful and they kill him and people make a religion out of it. The Jews believe there is ONE God. no holy spirit, ghost, or son. But the Christians believe in the 3 in 1, 1 in 3 god is made up of the ghost spirit and son...Stupid.

THEN! you have those "religious" people who don't know crap about their religion and someone like me who simply takes a histroy class knows more than them...and I don't believe in a flying noodle monster.

The vandal is not saying the Jews killed christianity, but that they killed the Jesus. It's actually been a common belief that has plagued christianity since its infancy.

Many of the pogroms in Europe were based on this idea (and the even more ridiculous idea that Jews drank christian blood, for some reason).

Christians have a long history of hating, torturing and murdering Jews.

Luckily, they're ever so tolerant today.

hambone, human beings have a long history of hating, torturing and murdering each other regardless of faith, skin color, etc... its sadly just who we are.

Rw,

I agree, but often that hatred, torture and murder is shrouded into a practise and belief system that is considered sacrosanct and beyond reproach.

Just by condemning the acts of certain religious institutions, I am considered anti-religion and hateful.

When you cloak hatred with a false sense of righteousness and moral superiority, then you are worse than the dictator who does those things in a quite obvious grasp for power.

I go to church weekly and I am very anti religion. It would take to long to explain, but a personal relationship is much different that spiritual "control" which has plagued our people for too many years with a lack of respect and responsibility. An atheist hates not "God" but those who has twisted everything that He ever taught and have come in the name of "GOD" destroying everything in their path, which i can understand and if every single christian that had ever came to the masses actually preaching and acting with the "love thy neighbor" heart then we could find some ability to be at peace. Its the only reason i go to the church that i do, called "Heartsong" just outside of Memphis because when people were condemning the Muslims in NYC and in Murfreesboro Tn, this church invited the Muslims who had a temple/rec. center next door, to have Thanksgiving dinner at our church and have been doing so every year since....actions are the showing of faith and the hope for peace.

Some of you athiests are killing me. You are attacking God who you don't even believe exists...it is laughable really. God does not encourage man to commit acts of violence in his name. Man can do all that on his own with no help from God. Just look around the world at all the people who don't believe in God. They still slaughter eachother wholesale.....Man is responsible for his own actions. God is not. It is why he instilled the concept of free will into man. So that man can make his own choices. God does not intervene rather reserves judgement for your soul.

Actually h41L5a7an - the Christian Old Testament is the Jewish Bible, made up of the Torah, the books of the prophets and the "Writings."

Troy,

Didn't God kill every man, woman and child on earth, except Noah? Isn't that kind of violent? And what about in Judges when that guy chops his wife up into 7 pieces after she's gang raped? What's the moral there? Or when God made Moses lead everyone out of Egypt and wander the desert for 40 years only to kill him within sight of the Promised Land? Isn't that kind of mean? Or when Samson kills every person in that temple, thousands of them, just to prove a point?

The recurring themes of the Bible are power, control, and killing your enemies. At least from my reading.

So you haven't made it to the New Testament yet?

@ Bassai

So you acknowledge that the god of the bible did do such things, and that you believe it to be just?

Noah must have procreated and multiplied on his own after that huh?....lol. Whole new meaning to the words, go f--- yourself I guess...lol.

I did not say God was neither capable or immune to commiting what we consider acts of violence. I said

"God does not encourage MAN to commit acts of violence in his name"

I do, however, do not profess to know Gods ultimate plan. I only know what his plan for me to be as I study it in the Bible and it certainly doesn't involve stoning people to death and hating my fellow man for their beliefs, whatever they be.

Troy,

Maybe I missed it, but no one blamed "God". Almost every post was about how humans have done these horrible things, often in the name of religion.

And that's my only argument: The fact that some do it in the name of a god (a god that I'm not allowed to blaspheme or criticize, and I mean all of 'em, Allah, Yahweh, Jesus, etc) makes them worse than the people who just do it for power or money.

Hambone,

You did miss something. I was responding to bob's comment...3.10.

Troy said:

God does not encourage man to commit acts of violence in his name.

Hmm.

And Jehovah your God will indeed abandon them to you and rout them with a great rout, until they are annihilated. And he will certainly give their kings unto your hand, and you must destroy their names from under the heavens. Nobody will take a firm stand against you, until you have exterminated them. The graven images of their Gods you should burn in the fire; you must not desire the silver and gold upon them, nor indeed taker it for yourself, for fear you shall be ensnared by it; for it is a thing detestable to Jehovah your God. Deuteronomy 7: 23-25

"Speak to the sons of Israel, and you must say to them, 'You are crossing the Jordan into the land of Canaan. And you must drive away all the inhabitants of the land from before you and destroy all their stone figures, and all their images of molten metal You should destroy, and all their sacred places you should annihilate. And you must take possession of the land and dwell in it, because to you I shall certainly give the land to take possession of it. (Numbers 33: 51-53)

When Jehovah your God at last brings you into the land to which you are going so as to take possession of it, he must also clear away populous nations from before you, the Hittites, and the Girgasites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations more populous and mighty than you, And Jehovah your God will certainly abandon them to you and you must defeat them. You should without fail devote them to destruction. You must conclude no covenant with them nor show them any favor. Deuteronomy 7: 1-3

And they went waging war against Midian, just as Jehovah had commanded Moses, and they proceeded to kill every male. And they killed the kings of Midian along with the others slain, namely, Evi and Rekem and Zur and Hur and Reba, the five kings of Midian; and they killed Balaam the son of Beor with the sword. But the sons of Israel carried off the women of Midian and their little ones captive; and all their dometic animals and all their livestock and all their means of maintenance they plundered. And all their cities in which they had settled and all their walled camps they burned with fire. And they went taking all the spoil and all the booty in the way of humans and domestic animals. And they came bringing to Moses and Eleazar the priest and to the assembly of the sons of Israel the captives and the booty and the spoil to the camp, to the desert plains of Moab, which are by the Jordan at Jericho. Numbers 31: 7-12

Then Moses and Eleazar the priest and all the chieftains of the assembly went out to meet them outside the camp. And Moses grew indignant at the appointed men of the combat forces, the chiefs of the thousands and the chiefs of the hundreds who were coming in from their military expedition. So Moses said to them, "Have you preserved alive every female? Look! They are the ones who, by Balaam's word, served to induce the sons of Israel to commit unfaithfulness toward Jehovah over the affair of Peor, so that the scourge came upon the assembly of Jehovah. And now kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has had intercourse with man by lying with a male. And preserve alive for yourselves all the little ones among the women who have not known the act of lying with a male." Numbers 31: 13-17

At this Moses said to them, "If you will do this thing, if you will equip yourselves before Jehovah for the war, and every equipped one of yours will actually pass over the Jordan before Jehovah until he drives away his enemies before him, and the land is actually subdued before Jehovah and afterward you return, you will also indeed prove yourselves free of guilt against Jehovah and against Israel, and this land must become yours as a possession before Jehovah. But if you will not do this way, you will also certainly sin against Jehovah. In that case know that your sin will catch up with you. Numbers 32: 20-23

Hear, O Israel, you are today crossing the Jordan to go in and disposess nations greater and mightier than you, cities great and fortified to the heavens, a people great and tall, the sons of Anakim, about whom you yourselves have known and you yourself have heard it said 'Who can make a firm stand against the sons of Anak?' And you well know today that Jehovah your God is crossing before you. A consuming fire he is. He will annihilate them, and he himself will subdue them before you, and you must dispossess them and destroy them speedily, just as Jehovah has spoken to you. Deuteronomy 9:1-3

Troy,

I was responding to your #3.8, in which you accused atheists of attacking god where none had. Bob's response came after. Can you predict the future?

Also, to criticize a god you don't believe in isn't "laughable" because people like you actually believe in this deity and are trying to poison our laws and lives with the things you believe. And some will even possibly act on some of the violent messages your god espouses.

We aren't threatened by your god (in whom we don't believe) but his followers and their actions.

As far as your post #3.13, I decided to pretty much ignore that one.

Amanda,

I said God "does not"...not "did not". Everything changed after the death of Christ. Clearly you do not undertand what it means to be Christian.

This is "old testimate" stuff. Find me something in the New Testimate, the Christian contribution to the Torah, that preaches about killing others in the name of God.

hambone,

"Also, to criticize a god you don't believe in isn't "laughable" because people like you actually believe in this deity and are trying to poison our laws and lives with the things you believe. And some will even possibly act on some of the violent messages your god espouses."

Christians are not trying to poison our laws and lives. People in power that use religion to commit acts of violence and bend others to their will poison our laws and lives. Christians don't believe in violence and murder. It is considered a sin....one of the big ten actually! Christians are involved in the fight to abolish capital punishment, abortion and all sorts of things viewed as killing other humans. The notion that they are poisonous to our laws and lives is even more laughable than bitching about a God you don't believe in.

You need to focus more on people in our society that posses power whatever their religion be, if you are interested in changing our poisonous laws and lives. I kind of think we have it pretty damn good these days considering.

Troy,

You're right, we have it pretty good. But meanwhile, people, often under the shield of religion, are trying to pass laws that conform to their morality which deny human rights, invade privacy or cross the barrier between church and state.

That, my friend, I completely agree with. The seperation of church and state is something I totally agree with! I am of the opinion that each of our ideals should not be enforced on the whole, rather we should learn to coexist in peace. There is no reason we, as a people, cannot do this. We have made huge strides in this very direction and should keep fighting for peace...I know that sounds contradicting but there you go.

We should have fundamental human rights laws that we can all agree on and murder I think is one we seem to all agree on. It certainly does us no good when our political leaders and extremist wack jobs use any religion to force their will on us all. That is what we need to fight....not the belief or lack of belief in God.

However one finds peace and harmony with/in the universe is their own business. We just need to weed out those who do not believe in living in peace and harmony with everyone else.

True, Jesus said nothing about killing others. That we know of. The Council of Nicaea got 8000 scrolls of Christian teachings together in 329 CE, but the Bible only has between 66 and 77 books. Since the Vatican has hidden the remainder away as 'the Forbidden Books', how are you supposed to be sure that the Bible is the complete word of GOD? And what is in the books that your church elders have deemed 'forbidden'?

And as I'm no longer christian, I don't have a dog in this hunt, as the saying goes, so I will agree with you (and Ghandi) on one thing;

"I would like Christians if they were more like Christ. You Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Michael: (post 3.9)

Correction:

The Torah is the 5 books - PERIOD.

The TANACH is an acronym for "Torah", "Nivi'im" (prophets) and "K'tuvim" (Chronicles).

As to the rest of this thread (#3), again, the plain truth is, that Jesus, being a Jew, and following the Jewish Principles, would probably NOT be too happy that an entire NEW religion, contradicting HIS own), was being built in HIS name. (not to mention how many of his "followers" killed so many of HIS people.

Two thousand years and they're still getting mileage out of this nonsense... Don't they realize that Jesus was a Jewish rabbi who may well have led a revolt against the Romans and against those who collaborated with the Romans? He probably celebrated Chanukah himself.

In certain nations Christian churches -- and Christians ourselves -- are destroyed by the same kind of people who do these things here in our country in the present day --- not two thousand years ago.

Thank you, Troy.

I fully agree and it's why I come on here to have these discussions and why I do the same thing in real life. I'm looking for a coming together; I want to have discussions without all the name-calling and back-biting.

Sometimes I can get nasty (bad mood, etc.) but in general I'm just trying to understand why some people feel, think and behave the ways that they do.

Also, in #3.17, I used the phrase "people like you" in a condescending and disparaging tone and I apologize for that.

No apology required....I was looking for a good fight....and you always find what you are looking for AMANDA!!!!!!!

Also, just a thought...you are bitter about the church I assume. The church is made up of people...corruptable people with free will to do as they choose. Do not focus on these people. The Catholic church has shown time and time again throughout history that it uses religion to bend and contol populations. If you choose to fall away from God, and that is your choice for sure, don't let it be because of people.

I suppose you could say I'm bitter. It's not the reason I'm atheist, though.

It wasn't a choice and I wasn't driven away. Just slowly the layers of mythology peeled away (like scales from my eyes) and I realized that I do not believe in any gods. Not that there aren't any, but that the world progresses in the same way one could expect a world without a god to progress.

We are all born atheist; it just took me some time to come back.

Hambone,

The bitter comment was intended for Amanda but hey..lucky coincidence. If you are open to alittle advice I say this; Keep your relationship with the Universe seperate from that with your fellow man. The history of man is checkered at best and would turn any decent person bitter in the simply knowing it.

I think of God as a father and us as teenagers. We know so much and think we are ready to be off on our own but we are not quite as ready as we think we are.

Keep a healthy spirit and deny bitterness refuge in your soul. You will have a much better relationship with the Universe and a much less restless soul friend.

On that note I move on to other news.

Peace Bro.

Excillor -

WHY would you make such a bold statement that "Jesus was a Rabbi" ?

Neither "Testament" says this.

Christians don't believe in violence and murder. It is considered a sin....one of the big ten actually! Christians are involved in the fight to abolish capital punishment, abortion and all sorts of things viewed as killing other humans

this is true for some, and not so true for others. "christian" covers pretty much anything from the most liberal unitarians to radical fringe groups like the "god hates fags" clown to the just plain dangerous "new apostolic reformation" who is very active in politics and whose stated goal is to control every aspect of American life with their version of "christian values".

even if I don't agree with the premise of a supernatural being, there are many christians that I like and respect, and many that I do not.

Religion isn't what most people are really fighting over, it has more to do with power/control and money. Human nature is what causes this crap, though we love to find scapegoats for our problems and blame everyone else for our own issues. Atheists are no different, they just may be more honest about why they actually hate each other.

Careful how far left you lean lest you fall off the boat.

God does not desire violence of any kind. Violence is solely in the hands of man.

You are stating that your beliefs are superior to those of religious people...how are you any different from those you criticize?

Hate Poisons Everything

perhaps not everyone wants to be on YOUR boat?

Except for flooding the world, visiting plagues on Egypt and killing the firstborns, and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and turning Lot's wife into a pillar of salt. No violence there.

You don't have a choice. Last time I checked there is only one planet and it isn't procreating and multiplying so I suggest you build a rocket and GTF out of here if you don't want to be in the same boat.

Some Lame Name Here,

I did not say God was not capable of violence....I said he does not desire it....smoke another one lefty!

For something that is supposedly infinite by all means. If he does not desire it, he should be able to prevent it. But since he isn't preventing it, hes pretty much incapable isn't he?

Except that he instilled free will into your very being so you could think and come to that warped opinion on your own. The importance of free will is that He WILL NOT intervene. He sacrificed himself on the cross and upon Jesus's death, no longer intervenes.

If He did so for any reason at all, then man no longer has free will....he simply does what he must out of fear!

Come on Athiests, you are killing me on this...lol.

Troy - do you really believe that every Atheist is a flaming leftist? Or every Christian is isn't?

Just silly.

That is new Mifo "flaming leftist"? I'm trying to think if I said that or not...Doesn't sound like me.

However, "....smoke another one lefty" entirely sounds like me!....lol.

Of course I do not believe what you point out. Was just being a bit antagonistic. It was a bad correlation wasn't it?...you have to confess to the odds though...lol.

What would Jesus smoke?

Just jerking your chain Troy - for some reason that caught my eye... I agree with most of what you've posted and wish that other Christians believed and practiced as you seem to.

Jesus would likely have smoked whatever the hell they were smoking back then : )

I won't claim to be the best Christian...the Lord knows my mistakes and shortcomings. But I simply will never believe he wants us to impose our will on others since he gave free will to each and every one of us for sure.

We are taught to try and bring others to Jesus. Not force them. I know this has not always been the case historically but you can trust me when I say modern Christians are not violent murderous people. We do have an extremist problem like all other groups certainly. Extremists are all of our problem. They are the ones that generate atmospheres of hate and prejudice.

RWEvans says: "Religion isn't what most people are really fighting over, it has more to do with power/control and money."

In other words --- RELIGION!!

After all, if a religious symbol fell down in a crowd of non-religionists would anyone give a damn?

troy,

I do enjoy that you know the wants of god, while contradicting yourself. You must read the bible.

"God does not desire violence of any kind. Violence is solely in the hands of man."

"I did not say God was not capable of violence....I said he does not desire it" - wouldn't that not solely be the hand of man?

unless its his grand master plan- because we created him in in the image of a king.

Damn...I guess high school let out for the day.....moving on...lol.

No Jews killed Jesus. The Romans killed Jesus.

Anyone that blames the entire Jewish people for the death of Christ is an idiot in the first place.

Finally, a little insight. I was going to say basically the same thing. If you believe in God then Jesus HAD to die. It was part of His plan. Who did it is irrelevant.

Jesus was just a man who liked his wine and associated with prostitutes.

still trollin joe?

too easy...

"What would Christianity be today of Jesus had died in his old age, surrounded by children and grandchildren."

How do you know that he didn't? Think about it! Jesus only spent 3 days on the cross and according to records of actual crucifictions from the early 20th century, it normally takes 5 to 7 days for a person to die from this type of punishment. Then, he is layed to rest in a tomb, but dissappears overnight with help from his secret friends! There is NO known tomb or burial plot of Jesus! So, how do we know that he, in fact, died at all from that crucifiction?

There is NO known tomb or burial plot of Jesus! So, how do we know that he, in fact, died at all from that crucifiction?

Well according to Crosnan there wouldn't be one since the Romans typically disposed of the bodies by throwing them on the trash heap where they were eaten by dogs.

Actually, since Jesus' death was part of God's plan, Judas Iscariot was a hero who basically fell on his sword accepting eternal condemnation by the world of men to help fulfill that plan. Kind of like Batman.

Joe, lol, it must seem so to you.

Two thousand years and they're still getting mileage out of this nonsense... Don't they realize that Jesus was a Jewish rabbi who may well have led a revolt against the Romans and against those who collaborated with the Romans? He probably celebrated Chanukah himself.

In certain nations Christian churches -- and Christians ourselves -- are destroyed by the same kind of people who do these things here in our country in the present day --- not two thousand years ago.

well, Joe, at least he didn't molest little girls...

Some people want to change history to suit their own agendas of hatred.

Jesus was traded for a murderer. The Jews made the decision and it was done. But it was all planned by God before it even happened so we can all stop blaming anyone.

Sounds like we should blame God. But he set a precedence with that whole Abraham and Isaac thing, so....

The final decision was made by a Roman.

So Lisa's atheists are worse....thank goodness I'm not one of Lisa's atheists and just an atheists.......perhaps duckey you should do some REAL research.

LMAO!!! Us atheists are making demands?

My only demand (and no my demand doesn't = the entire atheist group) is for people to be EDUCATED! The reason less and less millenials are religious is because education is increasing...wonderful thing knowledge will do to your head!

Your welcome. I'll take Jews and Muslims over godless athiests anyday btw.

h4 whatever the hell the rest of that is,

People who are raised by communists and hippies are usually godless athiests when they are young and only come to God as age and wisdom come into play. The notion that all "educated" people are athiest is laughable!

Troy, go ahead and take them. As you do remember that they kill in the name of their god and you can share in the blood they've shed. Before you tell me that atheists have killed more I'll point out that, and I may be missing something, no one has ever actually killed in the name of atheism. No armies have marched carrying an atheistic banner, no one has ever been forced to convert away from religion to atheism at the point of a sword. Where are the places of atheistic worship and who are their priests?

Troy1101

Your welcome. I'll take Jews and Muslims over godless athiests anyday btw.

h4 whatever the hell the rest of that is,

People who are raised by communists and hippies are usually godless athiests when they are young and only come to God as age and wisdom come into play. The notion that all "educated" people are athiest is laughable!

#8.3 - Tue Dec 4, 2012 12:29 PM EST

I can feel the compassion that Christians are so well known for in your post.

Communists and hippies are usually godless atheists, huh, I’m guessing that in your world any religious belief that doesn’t match your own is considered ‘godless atheists’… mostly because the hippies I know are mostly WICCAN with a few Buddhists scattered here and there – both, by the way, not exactly working with the definition of atheism. As for the Communists, I don’t have any in my circle of friends that I’m aware of – and my circle is quite vast – but I will keep an eye out.

Last, but not least, I’m concerned by your “educated” comment. I can only assume that you were meaning that in a sarcastic way; implying that those who have an education are in some way, not educated? I’d be curious to know exactly how that works.

I’m just sitting here thinking of my various friends, I can count at least four physicists, six physicians, a couple of engineers and at least eight college professors… and they are all Deists – but again, that doesn’t quite fit into the definition of an atheist, in fact it is bordering on the antithesis thereof, so once again I fear I am at a loss to explain your post. Some mysteries… no?

Read on down the thread Shirley. I am not hate filled and was just being alittle provocative and sarcastic with that post. My "educated" point was that not all educated people are non-believers. Some non-believers even swap sides the more educated they become. The notion that education = athiesm is laughable....that was my point however warped I articulated it.

standingwave,

Athiests are responsible for the A-bomb. People in the group you belong to are responsible for 300,000 Japanese lives gone...poof in a second. Your religious temples are out west. I think they even have a headstone where the first one was popped off...please continue to work out a guiltless existience if you like though...makes no difference to me really.

So Troy, you're saying none of the people involved in the Manhattan Project were Christian nor were any of the Government which authorised it or any of the citizens who's taxes paid for it? That's a stretch, at best. Where's the proof?

Your logic is weak.

I jus threw that one out there so ...a bit weak was my logic agreed...my point being that there are plenty of athiests in this world that are responsible for death and destruction as with any other group of people. They are not all peace loving tree huggers as you insinuate.....no offense to tree huggers...I love trees too..lol.

Troy, over the recent decades, more than one case study and survey has shown that, in general, people tend to believe LESS in religion as they become MORE educated! No One is claiming that ALL educated people are atheists, but there is INDEED a correlation between higher education and less belief in superstition! Your bigoted reference to so-called "communists" and "hippies" clearly shows your backwards and aniquated point of view as well as your LACK of education!...

Roses are red, Violets are bluish

If it wasn't for the Romans

We'd all be Jewish.

Sorry if I wasn't being clear,Troy. My point is that there are no instances that I know of where atheists have killed for atheism the way Christians have killed for Christianity or Muslims for Islam (interestingly,in light of the vandalism this article is about, the Jews seem to be the most peaceful,historically). Certainly atheists have killed people, no disputing that, but they haven't done it for atheism but rather for other reasons both political and personal. To blame their killing on atheism is like blaming it on being left-handed or green-eyed. There is no direct connection or cause and effect. With atheists the killing does not follow from the lack of belief in God. Not in the way that it did in the Crusades, the Inquisition and the Reformation.

bassman,

Spoken like a predictable scientific genius who is socially handicapped and can't understand when one is putting forth a bit of a joke or sarcasm. I'm sure I'll pay for that statement but it will be worth it!...LOL.

standingwave,

Good points All!

Bassman,

Thanks for pointing that out to me as if I haven't heard that a million times from people of "superior" education....lol You seem to need to validate your own level of education and superiority by weighing it against a smartass sarcastic comment and insulting the belief in a higher power there bud.....why even bother engaging an idiot like myself?...lmao!....wee bit insecure perhaps?

Still trollin huh mouse...lol.

It generates clicks.

Why is this news indeed. This kind of stuff happens all the time. Perhaps our media friends are just a bit divisive today..lol.

Now if they make a report on Pork Rinds, no problem clicking that.

I can dig some pork rinds

For wondering why it made news you sure commented a lot on it. Obviously they posted it because it is thought provoking. Hmmm.

Not really. Now an article about a 4-D clock that can survive the destruction of the universe...that is thought provoking....these articles are just provoking hatred and dividing us all...alot like our government does when they want to know your race in the census....plain divisive.

For me, it usually starts by reading comments from haters...comment here and there and eventually finding a good debate...unlike here...moving on.

Hey now! I love this place....and I love our swamp trash too!

Just think of how boring the news would be without Florida! What other state has its own Fark tag?!

JOMO - could not have said it better if I tried! About the only other two places that this kind of crapola would occur so blatantly are Arizona or Kansas!! It is astonishing that after more than 2000 years most people who profess to know and understand Jesus are as ignorant as their forbears. As the great Alan Watts stated so eloquently in his seminal work - "The Way of Zen" - Jesus pointed the way and the Christians began sucking his finger.

Lots of trollers with no debate skills out there today.

Sarita,

"About the only other two places that this kind of crapola would occur so blatantly are Arizona or Kansas!! It is astonishing that after more than 2000 years most people who profess to know and understand Jesus are as ignorant as their forbears."

lmao....and you think believers in Christ are ignorant...rofl!!!!!

Jay - excellent comment! Oh do i love the FARQ's...

Jesus was indeed crucified under Roman authority, but it was at the insistence of the mob - presumably composed largely of Jews. They were even presented with the opportunity to save Jesus but refused to do so:

Mark 15 NIV:

⁶ Now it was the custom at the festival to release a prisoner whom the people requested.⁷ A man called Barabbas was in prison with the insurrectionists who had committed murder in the uprising.⁸ The crowd came up and asked Pilate to do for them what he usually did.

⁹ “Do you want me to release to you the king of the Jews?”asked Pilate,¹⁰ knowing it was out of self-interest that the chief priests had handed Jesus over to him.¹¹ But the chief priests stirred up the crowd to have Pilate release Barabbas instead.

¹² “What shall I do, then, with the one you call the king of the Jews?” Pilate asked them.

¹³ “Crucify him!” they shouted.

¹⁴ “Why? What crime has he committed?” asked Pilate.

But they shouted all the louder, “Crucify him!”

¹⁵ Wanting to satisfy the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas to them. He had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

Pilate showed considerable weakness in giving in to the crowd despite his own misgivings, but the crucifixion would never have happened without the instigation of the Sandhedran.

It was the express plan of God throughout history to for the "Word of God" to be made flesh. How can mere words become a human being? This is indicative of the character and power of God, so one should not be suprised, unless of course human judgement is the highest process a person can attain. And the unredeemed cannot understand these things because they are spiritually discerned. And so they mock and speak out of lack of understanding.

Some things that these processes should bring an understanding, and reveal:

• The plan for the redemption of mankind and creation involved the Word of God being made flesh, like unto man. This should reveal that God, who is Spirit, is not like us, and His ways are not only higher, but very different from our ways.
• The absolute terrible corruption of a will other than God's. He alone gives life, and sustains life, and all He makes is only good always, until the introduction of another will brings corruption to what He has made. So His Word became flesh, and underwent submission to the power of corruption by which He was judged, beaten, crucified and died. However, because He perfectly followed the will of God, it was not possible for death to hold Him, and so He rose from the dead.

It is absolutey unconscionable for sinful man to blame the work of God shown through Jesus Christ, on other sinful men, and indeed is the worst form of evil judgement, for it does not have God's righteousness in mind.

Levi777 Finally, someone who is making sense. Christians know that Jesus came to die for sinners, it was not a
accident it happened. He said "I was born to die" He also said those
who say they don't have any sin in them are liars and will die in their sin. So
anyone who says someone else killed Jesus needs to look deep inside and they
will recognize that they are sinner and sinners need a Savior, which is who
Jesus was and is. He is the Jewish Messiah as prophesized in the Old Covenant
scriptures and revealed in the New Covenant.

God Himself said in Jeremiah that He will make a New covenant with man and it won't be written on stone tablets and scrolls but in our heart "He will give us a heart of flesh for a heart
of stone". In the end it is not the Law that will save you but the Grace
of God with the ultimate sacrifice of the Perfect Unblemished Lamb of God that
takes away the sins of the world to all who believe. Through one man, Adam, Sin
entered the world but through another man Yeshua, the second Adam, we were
given a second chance at Life.

Jesus wept for the Jewish people for what they were about to face because they did not believe Him, though some did but there is coming a time even as many are coming to faith even now, when
they will see Him and ask Him "What are these wounds on your Hands and feet"
and He will reply "these are the wounds I received at the House of a
friend" and "they will look upon Him whom they pierced and mourn for
Him as once mourns for his only son. Yes Jews and Gentiles will once again be
one under Messiah or Yeshua Hamashiach or better knows by the Greek name Jesus.

In reality it is the Christians who are accepting the Jewish Messiah; Jews are the ones waiting for Him not us, we just stumbled upon the plan when God opened up the Salvation plan to the
Gentiles and the whole World. The blinders are slowly coming off just like they
did for Saul of Tarsus who was persecuting Christian until he found his Messiah
and became Paul. Salvation is of the Jews the Law leads to death but Grace
leads to Life. He came into His own Creation and we treated Him badly, mocked
Him and killed Him and we would have done the same if we were there at that
time and some still do the same when they continue to live sinful lives. We
didn’t want to hear it then and some still don’t want to hear it now, that we
are sinners in need of a Savior.

Choose today Whom you will serve!

As if anything today has anything to with something that didn't happen over 2000 years ago. Thanks for playing!

trollin trollin trollin away still mouse?

Let me get this straight.

The Jews are being blamed for killing the Christian god. Is that right? Well, if anyone has the power to kill my god then I'd make that person(s) my new god, after all, they just overpowered my god. So Christians should revere Jews as their new god.

Right?

Your logic is astounding Joe.

I bet you tried to fit the cube in the round hole as a child.

God is not Christian, Jewish or even Muslim....he belongs to all three! If you are going to distort reality at least get your deities right!

Joe - the depth and breadth of your understanding of theology is truly amazing...

And, Joe - THAT is the crux (pardon the pun) of the fallacy or Christianity.

Jesus was a Jew, who practiced JUDAISM. Judaism venerates the Torah, and the 10 Commandments therein.

"Thou Shalt Have NO Other G-ds".

Of course, to get around this, Christianity states that, by praying to Jesus one is not violating the 2ns Commandment, because G-d (which Jews see as "one") is, in fact, a TRINITY; thus, Christians can freely pray to ONE PART of that Trinity and still not violate the ONENESS mandate.

(hmmmmmmm)

I didnt kill Jesus. And neither did the entire Jewish people. That whole belief is almost as laughable as mouse's athiest trolling!

so you can troll but mouse can't?

..cute

Mouse is just throwing insult without reason or understanding out there....you aren't doing much better. It shows a lack of debating skills.

..cute

Speak for yourself. I wasn't there.

GPA,

That was very profound of you. It is very difficult reading all these comments on here because I was born and raised Catholic and majored in religion. There is a lot of confusion on religion on this site and a lot of hate. Your comment put a smile on my face though to see that common sense still exists out there. Thank you. We all killed Jesus. Very profound. Thank you

GPA,

Again, I didn't kill Jesus. I wasn't even there!

I know that may make sense to you philisophically speaking but in the real world, I DID NOT MURDER JESUS!...and neither did "the jews". None of us did. We weren't even a thought in our great great great great great....etc. grandparents minds!

Troy,

You are either not understanding the comment or you are just playing dumb. Jesus died for all of our sins. We are all sinners and henceforth, we all killed Jesus. Were you literally the person who nailed him to the cross? No, but Jesus did die for your sins. I trust your comment was just being silly and I should not have to explain this to you, but just in case you are being serious I did anyways.

"This crime was perpetrated by an ignorant and hurtful minority."

Indeed, idiot kluckers who will always be the minority..you can bet on it!

I think it is safe to say that is the case now in most parts of this country. Obviously, in Nazi Germany, it would have been an ignorant and hurtful majority. So we must always be aware that the danger of widespread hatred of discrete ethnic and religious groups can recur. The Libertarian in me gets very angry when people do this kind of crap.

I hope these types will always remain in the minority for all our sakes....Christians, Jews, Muslims, Athiests, and all others. Anytime one entire group of people is singled out for the crimes of a few and persecuted for that reason, we have a national problem...that is to say, it is all of our peoples problem. It is the same thing that happened to the Native Americans and slaves back in our worst years....and is nothing but no good for any of us!

I'm lovin' ya right now Steph! Well said!

Problem is, they're lazy. They want everyone else to leave.

@ Troy,Thanks !

Severed Head,

I love the name btw...perhaps they can get in mouse's boat and float off to another planet, the ones that can't coexist that is....and that applies to all, be they athiest or religious. It is a ridiculous notion in this day and age that we cannot all live in peace and believe what we want to...it is after all what millions of our ancestors died to achieve!....my mom would have wipped my ass royally as a child for insulting anothers beliefs.

A small group of Romans most certainly are responsible for the murder of Jesus AMomma2. People murdered Jesus....not God. He did not want to die in the end.

But again, where would Christianity be if he hadn't died?

Actually the whole premise of Christianity and the Salvation it purports is totally dependent on the belief that Christ bodily rose from the grave.... after paying the sin debt of death.... Whether you believe this or not is your choice and your choice alone.

However I would sternly warn the so-called, self-professed, "Christian" who did the desecration that Genesis 12:3 is still in effect.

Agreed Severed Head...but let's get the story straight. Just because Jesus went willingly doesn't mean he wouldn't have been crucified forcefully anyway. He went willingly because he knew that...he did not want to die. The Bible teaches us that He loved being around and educating people very much and in the end believed he had been forsaken by his father.

The Romans killed Jesus, they weren't Jewish..Get over it

Or can we say, the actual Jews who pointed Jesus out to the Romans...not the entire people.

Wasn't it Judas who pointed out Jesus. That was one man and he did it for money. He was corrupted. It had nothing to do with the Jewish people.

Yes it was. But he had co-conspirators as well....but yes, he ultimately is the person who pointed Jesus out to the Romans....and in the end could not even live with himself because of it.

Judas was a hero who accepted the eternal condemnation of the world to fulfill God's plan.

See I don't believe that anything is part of "God's plan" I think we were given free will and what we do with it, we do with it. Just as if my son created an ant farm. He would not be there God nor would he be able to force them to do his will or foresee what they will do. To say we have free will but God has a plan for us is kind of an oxymoron, no?

Your post is an oxymoron...seriously, read it!

Your son would most certainly be able to force them to do what he wanted....it would only be through restraint from your son that their lives would be spared. He could intervene if he chose too. Why, he could take the queen from the hive and what then, the whole anthill dies out....

Just don't give your hypothetical boy god a magnifing glass or he will destroy the ant world if you don't teach him to respect life....lol.

Do you know what an oxymoron is? Because my post was not an oxymoron. Saying you have free will but your future is planned is.

God has a plan for my soul, provided I learn what I should on earth with the gift of free will...not my body....you're lack of knowledge of Christianity is starting to bore me Mindie...lol.

Mindie:

Saying you have free will but your future is planned is.

Sorry, but your statement has less to do with failure to understand religion, and MORE to do with failure to understand ENGLISH.

If I see a thief walk into a store, I can "know" that he will steal - more so if he TELLS me that he's going into the store to steal. I KNOW he's going to steal, and yet, he STILL has free will.

The point is, that everyone HAS free will - that does NOT negate the proposition that G-d knows HOW each person will USE his free will.

Troy, I was raised Catholic and went through catechism. So no I do not lack in my knowledge of the Christian religion. I was merely stating my opinion that I do not understand how both can be said.

Jeff- you can't know someone will steal you can THINK someone will. And I am not sure how I failed to understand the English language. Please help me. I never said anything about God not knowing what people will choose. I said I do not know how they can say God has a plan but yet we have free will. Again, tell me how I failed in the English language. Because all I see are two guys ganging up on one girl bullying her and inferring that she does not know what she is talking about and does not understand English when all she did was have an opinion. Real good guys, real good.

Again...your flaws are multiple.

1. Your command of vocabulary: Please look up the definition of "know". Something "true" and "without a doubt." If someone is a habitual thief, and tells you, as he's walking into a store, that he's going to steal - you "know" that he's going to steal.

2. Further, the definition of "oxymoron" are 2 idea which are mutually exclusive, being used to support one another - YOU say that "free will" and G-d's plan" are mutually exclusive - they're not.

3. #1 aside, we're also talking about faith in a G-d who "knows" everything...this would include the future. Thus, it is elementary that this G-d would "know" if that person had a last minute change of heart.

THAT being said, Mindie - in retrospect, my words were a bit harsh...and I apologize.

much apologies Mindie. Sorry if I gave that impression. I am just a bit of a smarta$$ making my points. If you read them again and disregard the sarcasm you will understand what I was saying.

God has a plan for my soul provided I do not abuse the power of freewill on earth. If I do, God certainly gets to change his plans. I think Jeffs point is God will not interfer with the freewill of man even though he may know the outcome. That is my belief.

We can agree to disagree? Again, I apologize for being ea wiseass.

Troy I don't disagree with any thing that you say. I was just saying that I am confused by the one idea. So apology accepted. :)

Jeff-

If I see a thief walk into a store, I can "know" that he will steal - more so if he TELLS me that he's going into the store to steal. I KNOW he's going to steal, and yet, he STILL has free will.

That is what you said. "If I SEE a thief walk into a store" Then you see him you can't know he will steal. Definition of know from Mirriam Webster is

a : to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of

You can not be aware of the truth or factuality that the thief WILL steal. You can only know that he did once its done or like you said in your second post you can know if he told you beforehand that he will. You did not say that in your first post, thus, my disagreement with you. Now definition of oxymoron from Mirriam Webster is

: a combination of contradictory or incongruous words (as cruel kindness); broadly : something (as a concept) that is made up of contradictory or incongruous elements

Therefore saying one has free will but God has already decided what your life will be is an oxymoron.
We can do this all day. You giving me an English lesson on what you believe to be accurate and me disproving you the whole way or I can just walk away. So I will walk away. Have a nice day.

I hope the perpetrators are found. However, without a witness or a confession, this hate crime will go into a file with so many other unsolved crimes.

The next hit TV series. CSI: Jerusalem

I have to say that most Christians and Jews will just shrug and keep going. It is not like they will be seeking out death by stoning or burning at the cross of this person. If anything, most of us Christians and Jews would try to reach out to this person or at the very least, ignore the incident, clean it up and move on with minimal disruption.

Your logic is incredibly ignorant Joe but hey, put it together however you want. It doesn't matter to most of us Jews and Christians.

So Stupid! No man took his life! He gave it freely and could of called legions of Angels to his defense!! P.s you have a god and his name is satan who has the power to decieve only the decived dont know it of course. Because their DECIEVED!!

Not only that, but Jesus was a Rabbi. (Rabbi simply means 'Teacher')

Besides, it was a puppet of the Roman Empire that had Jesus executed. He wasn't executed because of his religion, he was executed because he was fomenting rebellion against what he saw as oppressive invaders occupying his homeland. (hey, that sound familiar, especially in the middle east)

The Bible is not a traditional history book. It was designed primarily for early priests to teach the smelly masses about Christianity. It's closer to 'historical fiction', where the characters are real, (some of them at least), but all conversations, and some events are based solely on whatever message they are intended to convey. If you look at the bible as Christianity's Aesop's Fables, you'd be closer to the mark. (all the stories in the bible are there for a reason. To teach morality, primarily, but also to teach about this 'new' God of the Christians.)

Agreed, unbelievable ignorance. As most Christians believe that Jesus' death was DESTINED to happen - it wasn't something that happened "unexpectedly" - how can any "believer" collectively BLAME the Jews for his death? Without his death, there would have been no resurrection, and THAT is at the crux of Christian teachings.

Ottermann, how exactly did Jesus "foment rebellion"? He told people to do good to those who persecuted them, and to give to Caesar (the state) what should be given to Caesar. Based on his teachings, some Christians, like the Quakers and Mennonites, eschew war and violence altogether. The Romans may have feared him because he was a popular figure who "might" sway the masses into rebellion, but a call to rebellion against Roman rule wasn't in his teachings or example.

I'm with Jim and Nikolaus....Ottermanns comments are quite convincing....to a nonbeliever anyway.

At any rate, taking Ottermanns comments into consideration, hypothetically speaking, what is so wrong with a book of morals be they from historical accuracy or fable? Obviously teaching morals has elevated civilization. It has taken a long time but it has been helpful to those who did not twist its teachings into the right to murder and subjugate.

The Romans demanded complete submission from their subject territories. When Jesus attacked the money changers at the Temple he disrupted the (Roman) peace and so challenged their authority. Does anyone who has studied them think the Romans would just let that go?

If you do accept that it is a book of morals, it's pretty clear how much has changed between then and now. So much of it has to be disregarded in today's society.

And if it is truly divinely inspired, the simple answer is such a being is not moral.

It wasn't the Jews that killed Christ, it was the same narrow minded people who would be calling for his death, if he had come now instead of then. Can you imagine what the wacko religious nuts would be saying if there was a man walking around today claiming to be God. To blame a race of people for his death is crazy. Christ and all of his friends and relatives were Jews, He picked the time and place where he was to be born. That should mean something. The Romans were an invading army and essentially were the police force, if someone was to be put to death it was their job. Their leader even tried to forestall the execution, but the crowd of nuts would have none of it.