Must be an academy thing. Or maybe an Army thing. In 20 yrs in the AF as an atheist, I never encountered religious discrimination. No one cared.

Do you actually believe the nonsense you spew? "Taliban-like philosophy"? seriously? not even sure you know what the Taliban actually is, much less their philosophy, and instead are just parroting your anti-religious garbage. Nobody is forcing this guy to be religious, violating his Constitutional rights, or giving any "if you're not with us, you deserve to die" treatment. He is not courageous, because if so, he would just ignore the religion that permeates many aspects of life, and just press on with pride. Did you serve? I did. And when it was "time to pray", I stood there silently and allowed the reilgious people to have their little moment. Didn't pitch a fit because they were exercising their rights, didn't whine they were violating mine. Give me a freaking break...

He's a wimp..glad he quit, the Army doesn't need quitters!

What war on those who reject religion is going on in the military? i wasn't, nor anyone else, beaten, ridiculed, or otherwise mistreated when I didn't bow my head in prayer like all the religious folks while the chaplain offered his prayers at any of the ceremonies, banquets, or other events i attended, or was forced to attend. no one ever dragged me to the chapel kicking and screaming, flogging me and screaming "repent sinner". I was never denied advancement, assignments, services, or anything else. So exactly what persecution was/is going on? Maybe we should just burn down the chapel and slaughter the chaplains so we no longer hear or see any signs of that dreaded religion stuff?

He stuck it out so far and now he is complaining.Where are hi fellow students who have also been subjected to this os called religious dogma? It's not that I don't believe him but quite frankly he needs the proof to back up his allegations. This young man should have dropped out long ago and went on with his life without getting in the media and starting up his little social group.

Prissy twerp. Obviously not suited to being a part of any team. No loss to the army.

During my 30 years in the Army I was never required to attend religious services and I was never discriminated against because I did not demonstrate a religious fervor. It occurs to me that the military really doesn't care what your personal preferences are if you keep them to yourself.

He is claiming criminal actions on the part of those he accuses. I would say he probably knows very well the seriousness of the claim, and the facts involved. This man is a true leader, he's working to purge the ignorance that is working against our democracy and constitution. You folks ought to find out more about the issues, it will be good for the country. And, take a look here: Mikey Weinstein is working the same issue, the illegal prosletyzing in the Air Force Acadamy. Ask for his newsletter.

@NIORD50, keeping these issues to onesself is the problem. This person, and Mikey Weinstein are working against what they claim is actively organized religious prosletizing BY the military. There is evidence presented that criminal activity is involved, and I think that all can agree that these great schools need to be pristine in their efforts to educate our future leaders. If in fact it is proven that christianists have been forcing their religious views on these young minds then they must be prosecuted to the fullest.

@jimboz. You and this idiot and Mikey are just another minority trying to keep the rest of us from exercising our right to worship as we see fit. This country is historically christian, so yeah, there are probably some christians who are in leadership positions in this country. And they may even talk about their beliefs. I think I know that is allowed in this country.

well, for one, we don't live in a democracy, so no one is "working against our democracy" or the constitution. but you probably haven't read that, or you would have known we have a republic. there is no prosletizing by military, it is not an organizational effort, the military is secular. if individuals in positions of authority are prosletizing, then those individuals need to be dealt with.

Any chance that Page is just a loser who wants to think that the reason for his troubles is his being an atheist?

West Point is well rid of this whiner. One of the characters on this site said that he was being persecuted because he wasn't religious. Well, it seems to me to be the other way around. Athiests are always complaining about everything religious. No one is forcing you to become religious or cares what you believe or don't believe. Live and let live is the motto of most of us. Whatever happened to majority rule? I think there's more to this than what we've heard and read. If he was persecuted, it was wrong, but I doubt it. If he tried to stop a practice that most want, the he should move on. He's had his 15 minutes of fame. Can you wait for the TV interviews? I can.

@NIORD50 See, you framed the issue exactly. Because you believe in a non-existent supernatural being you give yourself the position that anything you claim is right is what all the rest of us have to cleave to. In fact if you are a christian you have an obligation to convert non-christians, as I understand it. Catch a clue, bud, we don't want to be converted. Our beliefs are as important as yours. We don't want the government working actively to convert us and ours. Just for a second, let's imagine the government is pushing say Islam. You know, President Obama etc, etc. How would you like your kids constantly being badgered by Islamists, you can't watch a sporting event on tv without some crazy person throwing down a rug.... You get the idea. On second thought, you probably don't.

Majority rule? You're joking, right.

One of the most important functions built into the Constitution is the prevention of the "Tyranny of the Majority." If the majority always rules then we could still have slavery, all it would take is a majority vote and any Right could be taken away.

The way I figure it, you are all wrong...This kid is just out to make a buck. After spending several semesters realizing that the military wasn't for him, he decided he was going to make a name for himself by "going public." First come the interviews, (The View, Good Morning America), then the book he says he plans to write and last, but not least, the movie deal based on the book. He stands to make millions. And it all works because you religious and atheist nuts can't help but bicker at each other about who's forcing what upon whom. People like you are the only reason militaries are necessary. Grow up...seriously!

Prevention of the "Tyranny of the Majority"? Hmmm. Follow me here . . .

1. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land but it can be amended.

2. Assume the legislatures of 34 states request a national convention be assembled for the purpose of proposing changes to the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Specifically, that the phrase "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" be stricken and replaced with "The official religion of the United States is Christianity." (Take a look at recent presidential election maps . . . getting 33 states to vote as a conservative block is not so far fetched.)

3. Once that occured, the U.S. Congress would have no choice but to send the proposed Constitutional amendment out to the states where, upon ratification of the proposed amendment by 38 states, Christianity would become the officially recognized religion in the United States.

4. Voila, majority rule just made a fundamental change to American society.

The Constitution does not prevent the majority from ruling. It makes it very difficult, but not impossible.

Im very sorry but half the comments here are invalid, simply because few who have served. The ones that have served have clearly stated that it was rarely a biased experience. I was in the Marine Corp and trust me if youve ever had someone's will imposed upon you, that would be the branch where it would be done and I, like many other veterans who have weighed in here NEVER really experienced much bias.

I wish others would get off their soapboxes abouthow they think our military is an Orwellian Christian propagating sledgehammer. You are wrong, please come to grips with the facts that your opinion doesnt have merit here.

So on a similar note did anybody ever see the news story a couple of years ago about a company that manufactures rifle sights for the military named Trijicon had en-scribed bible verse locations on the rifle sights it was providing? 2COR4:6 and JN8:12. Trijicon admitted it when asked. Look it up.

@riley. Really? Who dropped you out of Starship Troopers into the real world?

Publia, Tracontech, and jimboz are right on!

BD-540164, Elder, Prism Lady, mike277, and Cincinnati Rick are either willfully ignorant (a requirement for the religious mind) or active anti-Constitutionalists.

I'm on active duty. I am an atheist. Everywhere I've gone in my 14 years of military service (in all three branches of the military) at every formation or formal ceremony, there is the chaplain leading everyone in prayers. I would not mind if they dismissed the atheists first and had a separate chaplain to lead prayers for every denomination present; that would be fair. But that is not the way it is. Everyone is expected to participate. If you don't participate or they find out you are an atheist, you do not get all the perks of the religious in-group. It got so bad during my tour at the National Guard Bureau last year that, although I received outstanding marks on my OER, I did not get an end-of-tour award as most do.

The military needs to end the Chaplain corps; an out-right endorsement of religion by the government. People may argue that the Chaplain Corps is a tradition going back to George Washington, but so was slavery and non-suffrage for women; I believe if religious people had their way, they would bring back those two as well (if you read their Christian Bible closely).

We need to tax churches too! Why do they get all the perks of citizenship without contributing to the luxeries of our civilization? (Like running water, sewer, electric, gas, good roads, 911 service, police & fire protection.) Taxing churches is the fastest way to end organized religion in this country.

As one who served in our Army as an Officer I must say at no time was I forced to attend Religious services but I was aware that belonging to a certain Church gained unwarranted favor. It appears to be an avowed atheist is to ask for oppression. Isn't it only fair that freedom of Religion also mean freedom from it?

.

C'mon AG99. That's like saying since you were never raped while in the military no other woman could have possibly been raped. Very disingenuous.

@BD-540164. Were you free to leave before they had their little religious thing or did you have to stand there and listen until formally dismissed? I'd bet if you had walked off before they were done praying you'd have faced disciplinary action. Sounds like you went with the flow and let others think you were christian and you did nothing to make them think otherwise.

@NIORD50. Oh please with the historically christian crap. While many of the founding fathers were Christians many of these same Christians were very much against organized religion. Many wrote extensively about it and it's there for anybody who cares to try and look but many would prefer to ignore evidence that may prove contrary to what they already believe to be true. You know like trying to burn Galileo for daring to say the Earth wasn't the center of the universe. It amazes me how many people want to ignore history because it may conflict with what they've decided to be the truth. It doesn't surprise me though since there are many that would be more than happy if most of us remained ignorant so they can keep pulling the same scams.

I have to wonder. What would happen if someone Muslim tried to join...

I had never thought about the advantages of removing the Chaplains Corps from the military. After serving my four years in the Marine Corps, I've found the Chaplains to be somewhat supportive of those of a different faith. Now, that said, I was in the Marine Corps a long time ago, and the religiosity of some of the christian evangelicals bay have changed that ecumenism.

I believe, that what I have read in the last few years about religious scandals at the Air Force Academy, and this at West Point, there may very well be something fishy going on in the Officer's Corps in those institutions. Interesting though, I have not heard anything, yet, from Annapolis. Maybe it is there as well, but hasn't bubbled to the surface yet. Time will tell.

As for amending the Constitution to enable a christian country, just look back to the Treaty of Tripoli of 10 June 1797, which reads in part... As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,

FloridaMaggie said, "Doing it for the easy life and taxpayer paid pension and lifetime medical benefits, no doubt."

Wow! You have obviously never been in or around the military.

I signed up for the military to support and defend The Constitution, which I believe in firmly. I did not to join a club of religious freaks. I support The Constitution because it is real, it works when good people (not religious people) enforce it; it doesn't require "faith."

Who said I was miserable?

Who is more arrogant and self-centered? The atheist who demands proof or the theocrat who demands you respect their lack of proof?

We did find a country where we could be free of the rest of you religious loons; it's called The United States. We left Europe because of the centuries of wars caused by your irrational religion. Apparently you don't know your own evil Christian history.

AG-99 - Although I seved in the US Navy, I totally agree with you - No one cared as to anyone's religious beliefs or if you had none.

While I try to relate to this, I know "Boot Camp" in the Navy was to "Break" one down (making your old self feeling lower than Whale sh*t) in order to "Rebuild" one into a "Sailor", where everything about you (for the most part) is the same as your shipmate - right down to the way you fold your clothes.

I have not attended college, but one hears a lot of stories about "Frat parties" and maybe "Officer Cadet 'Boot Camp"" in simular to that in the way of "acceptance" is to have "Alcohol poured down their anis" and this guy was expecting/wanting this to happen, but instead had to sit in "A Religious Service at the Chapel as punishment for something - where as if it we a regular "Boot Camp" as an enlisted service member - they would have been cursed and demaded that they drop and give them 100 pushups. It just sounds like this guy is a reject and could not cut the grade. When you are in the military - You're superior's are your mother, your father, your god PERIOD - They own you. If you cannot cut the grade - out you go with your Dishonorable.

We did find a country where we could be free of the rest of you religious loons; it's called The United States. We left Europe because of the centuries of wars caused by your irrational religion. Apparently you don't know your own evil Christian history.

Captain Jack Wignal: Actually we do know our own "evil" history. The excesses of the Church of England was based upon a feeling of morality; not on the bible. In other words, the way the govt. is now. No biblical basis, but a "feeling" ( which can change at any moment).

In short, dictatorship ruled the masses. The govt. was so corrupt, there was nothing to do but leave.

Even George Washington ( our first President) said;

“It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor.”

Thank God persons are utilizing the system; freedom to quit....nobody's a slave, freedom to take legal action.....not afraid of the Government. The truth will set us free. I'd like to hear from the people who argue it's costing tax payers dollars, when I say those people get paid whether or not there is a case in front of them or not and I suspect they would prefer there wasn't.

What your not getting is that nobody in high rank cares what the non com. or lower thinks. When you graduate west point, your in the big boy's club. the Elite Citizen group that was once for white christian men only. First it was hazing, now religious discrimination. here's a crazy idea, Lets keep our religions in our hearts instead of using them like swords. And yes This is no different then the mentality of the of the witch hunters of Salem. And yes, conservatives do have the mentality of "if your not with us your agin us". (not all, but many) It goes so well with he red neck. When people have moderate view points, I have heard conservatives on TV say many times, things like "he doesn't know what side to be on" or "maybe he should come down of that fence". usually followed by forces laughter. humanity has come so far, but has so far to go.

Bye bye, wacko,....and good riddance! I served 22 years as an officer and never experienced anything like this guy. I think he got cold feet (or turned yellow) and is looking for an excuse to weasel out.

Darde....have to agree about Floridamagge. I've never once had an atheist knock on my door and hand me a pamplet. Never once has an atheist stopped me in a mall, the airport, the grocery store, etc to tell me how wonderful their non-religious experience has been. Never once have I driven through a dirt-poor southern town filled with trailers and broken down homes only to find in the center of town a big beautiful building dedicated to worshipping an atheist deity. Personally, I can't think of a more arrogant group of people than those that worship an invisible sky being with virtually no proof of existence then expect me to follow along with their concepts.

Captain Jack Wigal

Taxing churches is the fastest way to end organized religion in this country.

Perfect example of the standard victim mentality perpetrated by the Left. "I don't want to do it so nobody should be able to."

I'm agnostic but I'm not militant about it. In my experience, that's the primary difference between atheists and agnostics. Atheists, in general, proselytize more than Mormons or Jehovah's Witness. We get it. You don't want to pray. That doesn't mean you get to stop someone who does.

The fact that the above position also puts your hands on another batch of OPM (other people's money) is only gravy. So what are you bastards going to do when you get your wish? When the people willing to shield you from the consequences of your own stupidity don't exist any longer? When pacifism is faced with militant Islam in your backyard because you wanted appeasement for the PLO, or the MB, or whoever? Good luck with that. That burqa will look good on you.

To repeat: I'm agnostic and I don't have a problem with any religion, save one. There's only one religion these days still actively practicing murder and rape as a form of worship, and, news flash, it ain't Christianity, Buddhism, or that moronic Church of Body Modification. The religion you Leftists cozen the most is the most dangerous mindset on this planet with your own being a close second. Christians, far and wide, are some of the most generous and giving people on this planet. Deny it all you want. It's a flat fact. People would die by the thousands every day from treatable conditions if it weren't for church hospitals. And that, my friends, is only the very tip of the iceberg of Christian charity. Sometimes, I wish you could get your wish but that only you could suffer from it. Unfortunately, the Left is all about making sure everyone is miserable, not just themselves.

Captain Jack - You just compared the chaplain's corps to slavery and suffrage. Really? Does someone saying a prayer for peace and well being offend you that much? Glad you were only in the guard. Man up son. The world is a rough place, and if you can't handle good words being spoken, I can't imagine what you would do when someone is actually mean to you. Much less if you were in combat. Wow, god help you. Sounds like you'll need it.

This kid washed out, and is leaving kicking and screaming. Nobody forces religion on anyone in the military at least while I was serving (USMC - semper fi). Only the people looking to make a big deal out of it will.

Stevefoo...that's the problem with atheists or any other people that say "there is no God" because there is no "proof". The type of proof you require, something you can physically see, feel, or experience, would give you a problem even proving that George Washington actually existed or that you actually have a brain. The same "proof" that you would use to prove the existence of these two things is the same "proof" used to prove there is a God. Yet you choose to not believe it. That is your right. I have the right to believe He does exist. There is no one more arrogant or selfish than a person that requires everyone else to adhere to their standards or beliefs. ALL of the christians I know or spend any time with would never "force" their beliefs on anyone. They may talk about what they believe but we all do that. You like to take the actions of a very few and blemish a whole very large group. Thank God, all atheists are not like you. All of your assertions about the "evil" christian regime in this country are not only false but they are ridiculous.

20 years in the military and I never came across people pushing religion in my face the way this guy describes. Yes, at some ceremonies, there was a prayer, but it all depended on what type of ceremony and the person it was for and such. Let's say a change of command or a retirement, the people it was for got to choose if there would be a prayer according to their beliefs because the ceremony was for them. This guy seems more like he is out to grab attention and promote his beliefs. I bet you a dollar if the Army does charge him for his education that this non-profit organization he is working with will pay it off!

"Page said he is planning to write a book about his experiences."

The last line of the article gives you the true reason he is doing this! MONEY MONEY MONEY!!!

Sttester....sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree with you. The real problem with the beliefs that you espouse is that it narrows the field for allowing the existence of 'actual' proof. People used to believe the earth was flat, that leeches cured ailments, that Zeus, Thor, and other 'gods' were real. When proof actually came along, there was resistance, but eventually people capitulated. Organized religion makes it incredibly difficult for science to make strides in this country (see stem cell research).

CaerRaven

I have to wonder. What would happen if someone Muslim tried to join...

We had muslim religious services at Ft Jackson, while we didn't have any muslims we did have a few privates decide to go. No one really cared, but no one went around on their high horse that they were going to muslim services. The military really doesn't care what you do so long as you keep your nose clean, pass PT, and keep your quals.

Now when you make a scene... that's entirely different. For this cadet, his problem was trying to do the very thing he was fighting against, that is forcing his views on others. The military doesn't like squeakywheels. I'm not baptist, but I have no problem when the chaplain comes to give a prayer. But the cadet would have been introduced to this part of military culture at the very start. Most BCT sites has a baptist for their battalion chaplain, and had him give a prayer at a mandated class on your religious rights during BCT as well as giving a prayer at graduation. It takes his enlistment career then almost 4 years at west point to figure this out?

I see he is a quitter and found this 'religious persecution' as a legal way out of his obligation. Shame on him and I hope he gets nailed.

No one is forcing you to become religious or cares what you believe or don't believe.

Wake up, look and listen all around. If nobody cared what religion anyone else was, there would be no religious advertisements or evangelicals of any type.

Live and let live is the motto of most of us. Whatever happened to majority rule?

Live and let live but only as long as it's OK with the mob?

@Captain Jack Wigal. Be very careful here about what you are saying, especially if you are truly a captain in the military and your name is Jack Wigal. By including the title Captain in your name, you are creating the appearance of an endorsement of your personal thoughts by the branch you serve in. You, sir, are then guilty of proselytizing atheism in a position of authority. I may or may not still be a member of the military, but I am a Christian who attended the Air Force Academy as a contemporary of Mikey Weinstein's son. If there was any supposed discrimination, other than tolerating prayers at functions, I was not aware. My roommate was an atheist and he saw no problems either. I know because we had many lengthy discussions about it. Nearly every part of my day is subjected to the secular society that we live in, so I am not sorry when a few atheists in a crowd are inconvenienced when they need to stand still for a moment in silence. And to another point that many atheists I have talked to hold: if you believe that Christianity or religion is only for the uneducated or ignorant, I graduated in the top 1% of the Air Force Academy and have a Master's Degree in Applied Mathematics from Rice University. Oh, and by the way I am only a few months away from my PhD. It is only ignorant to assume that God cannot be real. There is quite a difference between saying there is no god and there cannot be a god.

When you join the military, you already give up some Constitutional rights. You give up your freedom of expression by being forced to wear a uniform. You give up freedom of speech by being not allowed to smart-off to your superiors. You give up your protection against search and seizure by having drill instructors inspect your quarters.

Notice that the article does not explain exactly what actions this guy is claiming were discriminatory. Let me guess: the officers in question probably mentioned their faith once or something and this guy decided that was evangelizing

Notice that the media never reports cases of discrimination against Christians. Just recently there has been a push to force Christian military chaplains to perform same-sex marriages. How come that never gets reported by anyone other than life site news and focus on the family?

Captain Jack Wignal, congrats on 14 years of service. In my 26 years of service I was never forced to participate in any religious service or prayer at any function. My not participating it any religious group or function never hindered my career. As for end-of-tour-award, there is no such thing. Any award is based on how well you did your job. Maybe you just didn't do anything above going to work and doing your normal job. You say get rid of the Chaplain corps and taxing the churches. Quit complaining, leave the military service and run for public office so you can submit a bill to do it. I'm guessing you have never been on the front line or any where near it and getting shot at. Then you never heard "There are no atheist in a foxhole". When being shot at, people believe in or hope for a higher power to save them from serious injury or death. If you wish think about joining the Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers.

ddough whatever your name is, and then that ammendement would be challenged and the supreme court would throw it out. Protection of the minority. Didn't any one take civics? Pathetic. Religion has no place dictating the laws of this nation, in and out of the military. The christian right is a movement born of ignorance, the result of one of the worst public education systems in the world. Loud and stupid, that's the American Way.

To those claiming that there is not religious bias in the military, I say bull@!$%#. The army can send you to "remedial training" if they deem you are not spiritually fit. There was a big story about this not long ago. Here's one link to it: www.npr.org/2011/01/13/132904866/armys-spiritual-fitness-test-angers-some-soldiers

An army of zealots is dangerous and needs to be avoided at all cost lest we revert back to crusade-like campaigns.

Emily -

You understand that the Consitution did not have any amendments when it was first enacted, don't you? It was adopted in 1787, ratified and went into effect in 1789 and the first 10 amendments (the Bill of Rights) were ratifed two years later in 1791. It is this amendatory process that I spoke of in my earlier posting. By amending the Consitution, you change the law that the Supreme Court interprets. Thus, your comment is exactly backwards.

For example, until January of 1920, it was perfectly legal to make, sell and transport intoxicating liquors within United States. Then those activities were declared unconsitutional after the XVIIIth Amendment to the Constitution was ratifed. Then, in 1933, those activities again became lawful when the XXIst Amendment to the Constitution (which repealed the XVIIIth Amendment) was ratified.

The Supreme Court determines whether a law is Constitutional by comparing that law or its application against the various provisions of the Constitution. If the Volstead Act (which implemented the provisions of the XVIIIth Amendment after its ratification) was enacted prior to the XVIIIth amendment's ratification, its (the Volstead Act's) provisions would likely have been declared unconstitutional as violating the Commerce Clause. It was only after the Constitution was changed via the XVIIIth Amendment that it was possible for the Volstead Act to be enacted and Constitutionally upheld. Likewise, if a bill had been enacted allowing for Jack Daniels Distilleries to manufacture whiskey after 1920 but prior to ratification of the XXIst Amendment, that law would have been declared unconstitutional as violative of the XVIIIth Amendment. You understand? By enacting amendments to the U.S. Constitution, the body of law against which all other enacted laws are compared can change.

What I learned in my high school civics classes, as well as in my collegiate history and government courses, law school Constitutional Law courses and through years of independent study is that the United States Constitution is a living document; meaning it has the ability to be modified to reflect society's ever-changing mores and beliefs.

Education is a wonderful thing. Applied often and with vigour, one can overcome most any handicap.

Just read back through my prior post. My apologies for the typos.

If you like Cadet Paige, then you're probably one of those people who brings up politics or abortion at the company potluck.

Wow, so this character is using his religion (atheism) to criticize other religions as his reason for leaving.

Okay *eyeroll*

NIORD: " It occurs to me that the military really doesn't care what your personal preferences are if you keep them to yourself."

It occurs to me that "if the military really doesn't care what your personal preferences are--there would be NO NEED for you "to keep them to yourself," would there?

You proved this young man's point.

You and this idiot and Mikey are just another minority trying to keep the rest of us from exercising our right to worship as we see fit

You got it exactly backwards. This guy is saying he (as another minority) does NOT wish to be forced to worship as YOU see fit. He doesn't give a damn how you worship. He just doesn't want to be forced to worship how YOU see fit. See the difference?

Besides, you already told us you had to keep your personal preferences to yourself in the military or face the consequences. You proved this young man's point very eloquently. Thank you!

Jo Ann-666954

Wow, so this character is using his religion (atheism) to criticize other religions as his reason for leaving.

Okay *eyeroll*

I nominate this as stupidest post of the day.

I was Air Force 22 years - From the time I enlisted to retirement, I've seen this type of persecution of the "non-christian" throughout my career. From S**t jobs and shifts to confinement to quarters. Commanders who tried ramming their views down the throats of their troupes while standing in formation while he preaches at us for hours at a time. If it wasn't for the JAG, I don't think I would have ever seen MSgt. Was I vocal, obstinate or outspoken? No, I just choose not to participate. It was noticed.

I'm not an atheist ether. I am an organised religion hater. All organised religions. Each and every one.

Scott, what is stupid about my post?

The guy's religion is atheism. He practices atheism and he doesn't like that Christianity mingles with things of the military. He is upset because of prayer and other things.

The lack of a belief in a god is not a religion. Only a religious practitioner would try and equate not believing in something with a religion. Look up atheist in the dictionary, then look up religion, and then rethink your position. The only thing that atheists have in common, is that they don't believe in a god, that's it. I don't even understand why there is a word like atheist. I don't believe in unicorns, but no one calls anyone an aunicornist, or suggests that we aunicornists are some kind of organized group with a shared set of values, we just don't believe. Period.

Christianity is not a religion, it's a belief.

This guy, on the other hand, believes there is no God. This is what he practices. He practices his belief and he is imposing his belief on others.

It's pretty funny that this article fails to mention that he was deemed to be unfit for commission due to depression a couple of months ago, whats up with that?

This guy, on the other hand, believes there is no God. This is what he practices. He practices his belief and he is imposing his belief on others.

Not believing in god is not a belief! And exactly how is he imposing his non-belief onto others?

The guy's religion is atheism.

That's an oxymoron. Atheism is not a religion.

He practices atheism and he doesn't like that Christianity mingles with things of the military. He is upset because of prayer and other things.

He's upset because he's getting religion pushed onto him, which does violate his rights!

Deafman,

You are absolutely right -- it's all about the money!

Jason,

Actually there are medical purposes for leeches -- they are used when there is infection at a wound site. The leeches suck the "stagnant" blood from the wound site and stimulate circulation to increase healing.

That's an oxymoron. Atheism is not a religion

Atheism is not a religion, its a belief. (I agree with you.)

Christianity is not a religion, its a belief. (this sentence is a repeat. Look at my post #1.61)

This guy is pushing his belief in atheism on them so he is violating their rights too. It works both ways.

He's going to "write a book about (his) experiences." But of course. That's what it's all about. He's just another arrogant, attention seeking atheist out to force his agenda and get rich while doing it. And since our culture has become such fertile ground for his ilk, he'll probably succeed. Too bad.

COWARDS AND DIRTBAGS, most of you are. I served as an enlisted man in the Army, got my degree then became a Marine Corps Officer (Ret). Prayer at Christmas functions, pre deployment and other special functions no big deal. Never forced to attend anyones services, or had my promotions stalled becuase I BELIEVED different. To be accepted into West Point is an HONOR, you know what you are getting into. To those that served you are the ones that have comments that count, the rest need to jump back in the holes you crawled out of till your sorry asses need saving again. For those that don't believe in a higher power great, for those that do great, and by what ever name you call them or don't great. The United States Military is the finest in the world, with the bravest people in the world. For all the people I served with we all prayed and had prayers said for us to hopefully make it home. Those who don't believe in a higher power, have never been to combat and had to check to make sure they had all body parts accounted for after a fire fight. You don't want to pray fine but don't talk while the rest of us are to our own personal saviors no matter what we believe.

those who don't believe in a higher power, have never been to combat

Not true. I respect that you're religious, but that doesn't mean that we military agnostics nor the military atheists suddenly become religious when under fire. Most of us don't. I get that you can't grasp that some of us have a different cosmological worldview, but we exist just the same.

Never forced to attend anyones services, or had my promotions stalled becuase I BELIEVED different.

Then you're one of the lucky ones, and you shouldn't be so foolish as to think your case is universal.

Those who don't believe in a higher power, have never been to combat and had to check to make sure they had all body parts accounted for after a fire fight.

Plenty of Atheists have survived combat and atrocities, including the Holocaust.

Thanks for your service, but grow up, seriously.

Outrageous...honorable discharge???

No charge for years of exceptional education???

Should be held in the brig at Leavenworth until he proves his allegations. If the allegations ARE true, and as pervasive as he claims, not just a periodic occurrence, then I want to know why it took him 3 1/2 years to take a stand.

Seems to me he was only out to make a name for himself and to embarrass a long standing institution and the US Army. Too bad the Point didn't identify his lack of officer qualities earlier. He is definitely not someone I would want to serve with.

Should be held in the brig at Leavenworth until he proves his allegations. If the allegations ARE true, and as pervasive as he claims, not just a periodic occurrence, then I want to know why it took him 3 1/2 years to take a stand.

What you don't seem to realize is that a trial would force the officers he's accusing to take the stand.

And West Point very obviously doesn't want that.

I served 14 years in the Army. As an enlisted man I was also targeted at times early during my career because I was not "in the club".

While it was not as pervasive as it appears now, even my old dog tags still have "christian, no denomination" on them for fear of being found an atheist and/or from a jewish upbringing.

Those that think this isn't happening in the military are either non-serving, deluded, served with a rank where the effect was mitigated, or those making up "the club".

When you didn't go to church on Sunday, guess who had detail during that time? Guess who had to stay in the field or guard the motorpool.

This young man is exactly the kind of soldier we need. One that stands up and leads by example, not some sheeple that would take orders from a religious group over that of the leadership in the country.

Those of you that think he should just sit there and take it are most likely the first ones that would bitch if it were you and something you strongly disagreed with.

Religion is quickly being realized as the mythology it is. Younger people today have access to more information than ever before and can clearly see the BS.

@AnotherRealFather

You are completely full of @!$%#. I've been in two wars, was a VFW post commander, knocked my buddies legs off of roofs, and been there. Guess what, not only still an atheist, but now an ANTI-THEIST.

You go do your god bothering BS but don't speak for me. I've seen plenty of dead christian soldiers in foxholes who prayed. Makes no difference.

Never bothered me that they did, only that they expected me to as well. Suck it up and support the constitution you promised in your oath. That means freedom FROM religion as well as freedom for it.

NIORD50, your beliefs are not my beliefs with that said religion fits into this statement. No where in the Constitution does it state this country was founded on Christianity. In fact it has a clause of separation of Church and State. The West Point Military Academy is a State operation and therefore any religious mandate of clicks should be held as being in violation of this clause and an abridgement of the Oath every student/soldier took upon entering West Point of other US military academy.

I have witnessed the same behavior in the federal service as well. If you as asked your belief system and respond honestly which goes against the prevailing groupie belief system you become ostracized by this same group or organization. Is there anything ever done about it? Can this person who has had their Constitutional rights trampled complain? Sure they can but it will cost them their career not to mention the harassment from those Believers in his/her federal office. There is no room for this bigotry within the Federal Government as it is endorsing a religion. I for one want the freedom to think for myself and be a Freethinker. So your opinion is just that, an opinion and not a statement encompassing the thought of belief system of every citizen of this country.

"Captain" Jack. You are a liar through and through. You have nevery served in the military and I hope that people can see through the bull@!$%# of your comments. "Tax churches?" HAHAHAHA do you even believe the vitriol you spew?

Atheism is not a religion, its a belief.

Atheism is, by definition, a non-belief. A theist is one who believes in a deity; an a-theist is one who does not. It's as simple as that - nothing complicated about it.

Christianity is not a religion, its a belief.

A Christian is one who believes in the divinity of Christ, ergo: a religiounist.

To equate the two is preposterous.

"Tax churches?"

Any church that violates the requirements and restrictions of the tax-exempt status it enjoys should be taxed, immediately. This includes political speech. They want to speak politics from the pew, they can change to a tax-exempt status that allows it.

Of course Christianity is a belief, and one I share. But it is also of course a religion, since it involves believing in the divinity of Christ, through whom salvation shall be acheived.

Sounds like Joann and her friends have been listening to Bill O'Reilly, who said Christianity wasn't a religion, it was a "philosophy".

Well, you can't have it both ways. If it's not a religion, then why should it be protected under the First Amendment?

And if Christianity is not a religion, then why should its churches get a tax exemption?

@DRK-1183578

And if Christianity is not a religion, then why should its churches get a tax exemption?

I'm of the camp that even if it is a religion that they should not be tax exempt for things like property taxes and income taxes above a certain point.

My kids got visited by Santa last year, I don't get a tax exemption because of it.

I don't consider his allegations and whistle blowing anywhere near what Rosa Parks did and stood for.She was a brave woman in those days who was risking her life when others just let themselves be pushed around like sheep.

j.a.c.lady, "just let themselves be pushed around like sheep." being a little harsh from the comfort of your own home 60 years after the fact aren't you? do you not realize the fear and terror millions of people lived under and felt? when an entire (black) culture was peopled by those who knew all the stories (by word of mouth, and by experience) of their brothers who were murdered and lynched by white people for 300 hundred years before the end of slavery, and then for another 100 years when the country in which they lived as citizens did little to protect them? certainly what rosa parks did was courageous, but try to learn what the word "empathy" means before you disparage others. just let themselves, indeed. shame on you!

Good riddance Page.

Well it wouldn't have been much of and ending for his book if he had just graduated and tried to change the system from within.

Play Nice, it wouldn't be much of a hardship if he didn't instantly owe the government $200k-300k upon leaving.

He knew about the prayer at events BEFORE ever trying to attend. So now he blames the school because the students can't abide him? Typical atheist trying to ram his own"religion" down everyone else throats.

Here is an excellent take on this whole fiasco:

How do you "put up with something" like religion for 3.5 yrs then all of a sudden do this... First of all, he knew what he was getting into when he went. (he was already in the army). Second, look at his picture, I doubt anyone will miss this DRAMA "QUEEN at West Point.

Watching these institutions which have been around for hundreds of yrs change for ONE person is getting tiresome. He should have went to a liberal school if thats what he wanted.

There are literally thousands of kids who go there for what they offer, not because they want to change it. If you don't like our country the way it is. get the f**k out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lancepilot, There's a last straw for everything. He's mad as hell, and he's not going to take it anymore. Plus filing a complaint warrants no such thing as a gtfo. In case you hadn't realized, because you're on the internet, people CAN file legitimate complaints about their rights in this counrty if their feeling that theirs have been violated. Changing the behavior of a traditionalist method is not neccessarily a bad thing. This is how society as we know it evolved and is evolving.

This guy simply could not handle the stress of the military. The anti-religious story is just an excuse. If you are strong and have strong convictions, military people will respect that. But if you are a pu$$y just blaming others for giving you hard time, it only gets worse. Been there and seen that.

By the way, you don't actually have to say "So help me God" in the commissioning oath; it's optional.

This guy is an idiot

While I did not go to West Point, I DID spend 20 years in the military. And NEVER once was I forced to participate in ANY religious ceremony. If he didn't want to be in the military why did he sign up for West Point.

Another point might be that for someone to say they are a atheist they have to acknowledge that there is a God to deny believing in him.

Spicy Bamburger---More to the story than this, this loser and I mean loser got within view of the end and then realized he did not want to be there. He took either a job with someone else for more money, is trying to get money from the government or realized he would never get anywhere with a military career, either way his motives are not related to God fearing, whiskey drinking, smokers of death who are the military. The truth is the military always errs on the side of the minority because of crud's like this who are trying to get money. This dude will slide perfectly into the group who are incompatible with the mainstream military who are there everyday doing the job without regard to the personal beliefs while serving their country. That is why they will not miss this idiot at all. The problem is this guy does not think anyone should have freedom of choice. This story is filled with lies and hate. Typical liberal @!$%#.

Hey Blake, when you swing for the fence, it's best to have a pitch you can hit. But on the bright side, McDonald's needs uniformed employees, "how about some fries with that burger sir".

@carl6352, you should also point out that there are more "chickenhawk" republicans than democrats. I do not believe that one party is more patriotic than the other. I have three great uncles who served valiantly in WWII (front line with MacArthur, Patton & Bradley), uncle and father who served in Korea and Vietnam and two cousins who have and are serving (Afghanistan and Iraq) and we have voted for both Democrats and Republicans. Please do not demogogue one party over the other when it comes to patriotism or loyalty.

Liam,

Take a look at the world today, a hard look, and if you can not answer that question for yourself, well then, you are actually part of the problem... A need to be Free, Safe, Protected, Provide for ones-self & family, etc, etc,...

This is B.S., and here's why; cadets at all federal academies can transfer out, without any obligation, after their sophomore year. The traditions at each academy, West Point being the first and oldest, haven't changed since time immemorial.

He knew what it was like; knew what he was getting himself into, and he could have left there two years ago without fanfare, and without obligation.

Instead, he chose to continue on, and resigned during the Christmas season of his senior year. Talk about drawing attention to yourself, and making a "point!"

My guess is that this kid has some sort of foundation behind him, who will foot the bill for his time at West Point. Then, he'll write a book for which he will get a healthy advance from some publishing company, and he'll make speaking engagements for a tidy "little" fee. (I wonder when his first appearance on "TODAY" will be?)

The shame of this is that some other kid, who really wanted to be there, to graduate, and to serve as a leader was denied the slot that this guy occupied for the last four years.

I don't deny anyone the right to be an agnostic, or even an atheist if that's what they choose.

But, to use such things to draw attention to yourself, and/or to tear down the traditions of an institution such as the USMA, that have existed for close to 200 years, is dead-ass wrong.

Spicy Bamburger hides behind an anonymous name and expounds on the requirement for principled men and women. Way to take firm stand buddy!

Spicy Bamburger hides behind an anonymous name and expounds on the requirement for principled men and women. Way to take firm stand buddy!

Yes, something tells me his motivations are much more different than Rosa Parks.

"Page said he is planning to write a book about his experiences."

Sounds more like he is using this as a platform to earn a little coin!

This guy new what the Academy entailed and he new what his rights were before he joined. He just got scared about being deployed or else he just relized that he wouldn't be a good leader. Regardless he should get a dishonorable discharge and be forced to pay the military back that would stop all these insecure people from jumping on the pity wagon because they know they can. Just fade away mr. Page and don't try and make the money writing a book because your to lazy to find a job after the military. My nephew is on his 13th year in the Marine corp and is going for his 6th deployment between Afganistan and Pakistan. Master Sgt. United States Marine Corp.

It's hard enough completing West Point training but when the god people throw extra problems at you that have nothing to do with the military then, evidently, it became unbearable.

Notice to all god people: If you want to force your beliefs on others go to the middle east, you will have much company.

Very well stated ZMan2012. This kid should have never been allowed on the hallowed grounds of West Point. What a waste.

Tell me I'm old - You're Right... tell me my faith in my Lord and Savior is wrong... I'll fight - Because You're Wrong! What we have here is a young man who has never known oppresion... and saying U.S. Army Officers should not be allowed to worship their God! He should hang his head in shame. My ancesters arrived here in my beloved America in 1635 in Boston. They have faught and died for my beloved country. I can only pray that your actions by doing this do not ruin your own life. The 'courage' you say it took to follow your unbelief... is nothing but fear of serving in my eyes. My father was wounded in WWI, my uncle was killed in WWII, my son faught in the first Gulf War.. AND YOU WANT SUPPORT FOR WALKING OUT ON YOUR SERVICE BECAUSE GOD IS PRESENT AT West Point!!!! I Pray Not!!! My family over the years told me their are no athiest on the battlefield. They told of many non believers who screamed out for their God with their dying breaths. My son and his comrades worshiped their God together, he Catholic, protestants of many churches, Jews - all together in their knowledge that God would stand with them. This nation was founded as One Nation Under God young man. This nation was guided to it's greatness by our Lord. You and non believers have wresteled Him from our Schools, our courts, our Holidays. Christmas is Christmas.. not Xmas.. Channaka is the Festival of Lights.. Not a Jewish Christmas. We were established that each can worship God in his/her own way and not be put down or endangered. You sir, since you don't believe should have turned down your 'free college' prior to wasting my countries time and money. No one made you go... no one will miss you at graduation. But this country is my country and God and all His values and commandments are part of this wonderful countries greatness. I pray and pray that our God will heal our land, open eyes blinded by the devil with hatred and bring us back to a country free to worship - prayer in school - in the courtroom- at baseball or football - all sporting events. When I see a player down... I pray that he will be strong again. Sir if you must leave West Point - and you did... I will pray that reality of what you have done will not contribute to further distruction of Religion in my country.

Dave Simpson,

I take it by your post that you went to West Point!?! Thought Not! Then how can you say what you did or take his side from this story? Were you in the Military? I am a 'Two Tour Viet-Nam Combat Vet', I do not remember being told I had to do anything religious! In 'Boot Camp or After', we had a choice... I from this story take from his tenure at the Point, something else is awry, and he had a choice, out or else! But to just quit in your 'Senior' year, so close to graduating, come on, gotta be a lot more to this story... If this story is true well in my books for quitting when so close, and not fighting on from within, well to coin a Arnold phrase, "He's a Girly Man"... Capt. C. Burroughs

Dave Simpson, I too am sick of it. Its weird but people claim that a religious figure created the world, and now we are hell bent on destroying the world for this religious figure....may mother nature cure us.

just because you served does not mean your experience is all inclusive....wow even some of our x soldiers cant see past their own nose...err superior like position against anyone not serving....

CBurroughs hey yo....unless you served in congress you have no right to vote or have an opinion of what they do....hows that

Very well stated ZMan2012. This kid should have never been allowed on the hallowed grounds of West Point. What a waste.

Quite obviously you know nothing about the purpose of the military or their academies then, if you think their grounds remain hallowed after performing such blatant violations of the establishment clause.

The idea expressed here that this nation was founded under God means nothing. Every person has the right to believe as they wish. Me, I don't see much of any God these days other than lip service.

The very idea that any one , military or not, can be pressed into a culture that is allegedly something God wants is rediculous. Why would an omnipotent God need go betweens to make stuff happen?

This is the sort of thing we can expect from the Mulhas of Iran and many places in the Mid East.

Religious belief should be and remain private and not become some sort of Un-God like wedge used against alleged "NON BELIEVERS"

Roadlesstraveled,

See you can not tell the difference in when a story is told in the media and when issues are put forth for the nation as whole to vote on. In one we usually just get one side of the story in the other both sides of the issues are put forth for us to decide on and vote for. Anything else I may help you with just let me know...

Allswell,

I did not see where they posted the Point's side of the story yet... So, I guess if you get into a fight with your neighbor and the police respond, the police need only get his side of the story!?! Correct? That is what you and other's are doing about this story... I only said if it is true, if he is correct and the Point is in the wrong well, get them, but we have to hear 'BOTH' sides...

This story "sounds really Familiar" with one guy in our Company doing the exact same thing. It was at a time while we were getting ready to go on a flight out a week prior. Everyone was on a "Thrill High" for the action coming. But there was One new guy saying he didn't want to go fight with us in the jungles and he had been constantly on the phone with his Attorney to get out of leaving the country. His attorney then brought this "proselytizing" up to argue with our CO. We didn't think much of him at the time, we all were just getting Hyped into leaving... counting the nights in our 'lock-down'. After a couple of days the MP's came taking him out to some location and we never saw him again. My Question on this issue is "Could this be one of those moments when someone doesn't want to be in battle for fear of dying?"

Ex-Combat Vet

Dave Simpson, just because you're only exposed to the loony Christians doesn't mean the rest of us aren't doing it right.

Carol-Charlie, I think you're fighting the wrong point.

roadlesstraveled, put the crack-pipe down, dude. Your concept of religion is pathetic. Nobody's on a freaking Crusade here... though people keep butting heads over whose side is right... someone always has to prove that they're right, especially on the internet, instead of just saying, I am x, and I'm okay that you're not and don't want to be x.

Another point might be that for someone to say they are a atheist they have to acknowledge that there is a God to deny believing in him.

Robert: um, what??? That makes no sense. It's *exactly* like saying you have to acknowledge that there is a Santa Clause or an Easter Bunny in order to deny believing in them.

I was in the Navy for 8 years, did 3 overseas deployments to the Persian gulf (Cruises) and was never accosted once by any of my superiors. As my name sake suggest I'm agnostic, and sure I had many deep discussions and even debates with fellow sailors and marines (many friends) about religion; I never once felt threatened at any capacity. I think this guy is making a huge mistake and there might possibly be a hidden, premeditated, ulterior motive.

@Carol-charlie, Really ? This man never once said that others cannot believe ! !

And for the record, this nation was never founded as one nation under god. In fact the founding fathers made it loud and clear this was to be a secular country. And 'under god' was added to the pledge of allegiance in the early 50's as a knee jerk reaction by a red-scare congress .

First Amendment : "Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances"

Treaty of Tripoli ,The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797 : "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

And I won't even start to Quote Thomas Jefferson on this matter.......

Carol-Charlie, Xmas is an acceptable abbreviation for Christmas. X is the greek symbol for Christ and has been used for thousands of years. Do a smidge of research, you ignorant moron. Oh, and "...under god" was added to the Pledge in the 1950s, so nice try there. Also, our Founding Fathers were deists, most subscibed to the wound-clock theory of a higher power, if they believed in one at all. You don't know what you're talking about because your wack-ass religion is built on lies.

This is utter BS!!! This guy is trying to walk away with a free education without fulfilling his active duty commitment. This trick is one of the oldest in the book and has been tried numerous times. Some cadets even "become" mysteriously unstable or contract vertigo or have adopted a new religion during their final year which now makes them a conscientious objector to war.

Utter nonsense!!!

Founding Fathers were deists

Some were like Thomas Jefferson. Some weren't like Ben Franklin who was an atheist. Some were very Christian like Washington and Adams.

The beauty of the founding fathers was that although they all believed different things they found a way to get along for the most part (Hamilton and Burr). Freedom was placed above all else!!!

However, in one particular document The Declaration of Independence" there is one line which somes up their agreement on tolerance. "We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal. They are endowed by THEIR (not THE) creator with certain inalienable rights..."

In otherwords they wanted the Church of England who King George was the head to know that in America all freedoms of thought including the "here after" was accepted.

The traditions of West Point no doubt adhere to and coincide with many traditions of Christianity. The fact is this country was predominately a Christian country long before people began believing in all sorts of other belief systems and ideas. We are rooted in our past with a common thread of our forefather's religious heritage for the most part. If that troubles you and causes you much strain and discomfort today, I would say you need to seek some help. There is no King requiring you to attend church as was the case in the 17th Century. There is no denying you of an education because of your religious affiliation today. As a matter of fact on many religious affiliated campuses today you will find atheist groups who meet much like a fraternity would. Finally and to the point of this article, Chaplains of all faiths are now provided and found in the military. If you are asked to pray you may choose just to take your moment of silence and become one with Buddha if you so choose. As I said above, this whole contention is a croc of crappola!!!!

It seems this jerk is offended by what he characterizes as "fundamentalist Christian proselytizing" as a violation of the first amendment but conveniently ignores the free exercise clause which states "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". These officers he is critical of have every right to espouse their religious beliefs, something atheists loath since they wish to project their beliefs while suppressing the beliefs of others.

The academy is far better off without him.

JK-4363698

Good riddance Page.

Yep, can't allow religious freedom in the US Military now can we?

Freedom of Religion includes Freedom from Religion!

Wet Willy

It seems this jerk is offended by what he characterizes as "fundamentalist Christian proselytizing" as a violation of the first amendment but conveniently ignores the free exercise clause which states "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". These officers he is critical of have every right to espouse their religious beliefs, something atheists loath since they wish to project their beliefs while suppressing the beliefs of others.

The academy is far better off without him.

Really Willy? Atheists are projecting their beliefs on others by objecting to being strong-armed but to "force and coheres" young people to adhere to YOUR religious beliefs is merely exercising your rights?

You have a strange concept of freedom!

Hey

BDnSC, did you read the non-sense you wrote?

He knew about the prayer at events BEFORE ever trying to attend. So now he blames the school because the students can't abide him? Typical atheist trying to ram his own"religion" down everyone else throats.

Who is trying to ram what where???

Put him in a fox hole and see how fast he finds God! A God! Any God!

Put him in a fox hole and see how fast he finds God! A God! Any God!

Likely never. The "no atheists in a foxhole" phrase is demonstrably false.

America has rejected our history and our foundation as a Christian nation.

We were founded as a secular nation. I suggest you read what the Founding Fathers had to say as to the creation of the nation (not what their personal religious beliefs were; they were smart enough to separate).

Mark this day on your calendar.

Sure thing. I'll label it: "freedom from fiction day".

Oh, and can you prove your god's supremacy without proving every other god at the same time?

THEY MAKE THE CADETS PRAY???!! My tax money goes to a school that makes its students pray?

This is a SECULAR country. Government institutions must remain SECULAR.

This young man is a hero.

Seriously, if there are military leaders who go around demanding that you must believe in god, those leaders embarrass America.

He knew full goddamn well what he was getting into when he went to West Point. He is just a little drama queen trying to get attention to himself. Good Riddance to trash, to try and disparage West Point is very pathetic since West Point has been what 200 years??? Did he not research it before going there? He knew and went to try and make a point....nothing like trashing a tradition for what $$ and attention....I dont want to hear about religious freedom, he KNEW about West Point and still went!

Bart you know nothing, its a Military school with set traditions, that little punk is not hero more of a attention queen.

And I can make mine bold too Bart

Robert-2302414
...
Another point might be that for someone to say they are a atheist they have to acknowledge that there is a God to deny believing in him.

LOL. So then to deny the exisitence of the Easter Bunny, one must acknowledge that there is an Easter Bunny to deny believing in??? Please explain your logic.

He knew full goddamn well what he was getting into when he went to West Point.

No one goes to a secular military academy and expects to be preached to or punished for not holding a religious belief.

Bamburger: "JK-4363698 would have us fill the military with unprincipled men and women."

You remind me of my cousin who was busted with a joint (marijuana) in 1968--and was rejected from being drafted to fight in VietNam War because he was (and I quote) "morally unfit to kill."

HILARIOUS!

Carl: "the so called right wing tend to be more patriotic in defending their country so most join the military, left wing cowards just blovate support for it and hide under their beds when called. thats why over 70% of the military supported romney

SERIOUSLY? It's true that Romney supported the Viet Nam war -- but he himself refused to serve. Instead he got a deferment for roaming around France as a Mormon missionary. Very patriotic! NOT!! And then "over 70% of the military supported Romney--! HILARIOUS!

Of course most Evangelical Christians supported Romney also--even though Mormons are technically not "Christians" since they do not believe in the Nicene Creed. But don't believe me--look it up! It just gets better, doesn't it?

Liam: "What is it that makes men embrace guns AND religion ?

RIGHT ON! God guts & guns. I know I can see Jesus roaming the Middle East with his AK47, bombs and other weapons of mass destruction blowing up "the enemy," can't you?

NOT!!!!

So, do you think that Mr. Page was unaware that West Point invokes God along with Country in their moral values? What military service (of any kind) has anyone EVER attended where God and Country were not mentioned?

I have no problem with Mr. Page not being a religious person, I'm not, either. However, I don't go to certain places (Congress, for example) or weddings or funerals and expect NOT to hear some religious reading or reference. Whether I believe or not is irrelevant. If I NEVER want to hear religious sayings or references then I should only go to the grocery store and the mall. Otherwise, you live and let live. Of course that would include those at West Point just leaving the guy alone, too.

What military service (of any kind) has anyone EVER attended where God and Country were not mentioned?

God was never of required mention in any service I was involved in. If you mean service as in Air Force, Army, etc...the same applies.

ROBERT 2302414:

I deny the existence of Bigfoot. Therefore (by your reasoning) Bigfoot exists. (?)

Allswell, I don't understand what you mean by "attending" the military.

The Air Force Academy has gotten in trouble before on this issue. They've pushed not only religion, but a particular kind of fundamentalist Chritianity, on their cadets by having sectarian prayers at events that all cadets are mandated to attend. They have tolerated bigotry and slurs towards cadets who are atheist or not Christian. Faculty members were proselytizing cadets, and in at least one case, a Jewish cadet was told he would be going to hell since he was not Christian. Cadets got special passes for attending religious events, while cadets who did not attend those events were referred to as "the heathen flight". The Academy Commandant, Brigadier General Weida promulgated the National Day of Prayer, encouraging cadets to proselytize others, and led born-again Christian cadets in a chant/response at a mandated Academy event to encourage them to proselytize. Faculty members under his command were sending out emails with Bible verses at the end of the text.

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/security/has179020.000/has179020_0.htm#0

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/2011-03-13-Air_Force_Academy_13_ST_N.htm

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-aslan22aug22,0,4674900.story

In spite of promises to reform, the Air Force has continued to be censured for overtly promoting a form of Christian supremacy. In 2011, the Air Force had to pull a nuclear ethics training course at Vandenburg AFB because the material was full of Biblical references and quotes. After this event, Air Force Chief of Staff General Norton Schwartz sent out a service-wide memo entitled on "Maintaining Government Neutrality Regarding Religion" last September 13th. However, the Air Force Academy sat on it until September 26th, only releasing it to the cadets and faculty after public outcry.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2011/08/air-force-nuclear-ethics-course-yanked-080411/

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Air-Force-Academy-Was-Agai-by-Chris-Rodda-110930-183.html

The idea that this young man was discriminated against at the Air Face Academy is not really surprising, then, especially given that a mjority of the faculty at the Academy, not to mention 33% of all military chaplains are Evangelical Christians. (Only 3% of service personnel are Evangelical, btw).

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/HQ_Review_Group_Report.pdf page 83

http://gum.afpc.randolph.af.mil/

Attending was not a word I myself used, it was quoted.

I've never attended a military academy. I was commissioned through ROTC.

Oh, OK, I'm sorry, allswell, I misunderstood. Hey, my spouse was commisioned through ROTC, too, a (ahem) long time ago. Go middies!

No worries. I'm so glad I went ROTC, I got a much more interesting and diverse college experience.

Don't worry. unless his book is a best seller he'll still end up in the red when uncle sam tells him he own 3 1/2 years of tuition to one of the top schools in the nation.

nope. he'll hire some lawyer who will argue his rights were somehow violated, and the whole debt will be washed away. hell, he'll probably get paid. and the taxpayers will be on the hook for the wasted and unused education.

"War on religion" = "Finally standing up to the Talibangelical bullies and refusing to let them get away with their crap any longer."

That cadet has balls of steel, to do what he did.

this cadet was a pu$$y...

I find it ironic that NBC presents this issue. I've given up watching sports on television because agencies like NBC force their religious views on those who watch when they present the fools with their religious posturing. Forcing their christianist crap on Americans is just what this issue is about. We Americans don't want this garbage, based on people who believe in a non-existent supernatural being. I have a message to nbc - most of the stuff you offer is pure crap, so when you chase my family and me away you lose any chance I'll buy your goods. I don't expect you to change, you're not smart enough to understand the issue. You are clowns.

Too bad he didnt understand what was meant by filling the hole in his heart. He will come to see that his superiors were right: he will never be a good leader. Best of luck with his book and I hope there is some way around him having to pay back a minimum of $200,000. that would suck.

He is whining about having to tolerate others beliefs.... but is he ok with US whining about his beliefs? I doubt it.

jimboz... you know NBC is biased and they favor liberal democratic views right? So I don't know what you are talking about... if your post replaced the two "NBC"s in it with "FOX" it would make sense. Otherwise, I have no idea what you are talking about.

In fact there apparently few real leaders in the sections of the military that violate their obligations. Military people are mandated to object to the actions of the christianists and those of that ilk, just as apparently christians are mandated by their religion to convert any non-christian. Someplace in this thread an idiot said something about the majority dictating. The constitution talks to us about this, in fact especially about the actions of religion in this context. Religion = believing in a non-existent supernational being. Please, we won't accept your religious views being forced on us. Just as you wouldn't.

Ohio, he is "whining" about having to tolerate others, who have great power over him, forcing their religious views on him in violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the Constitution. For a superior officer to try to force religion on a subordinate is no different than sexually harassing them.

What bothers me is this idiot used up a spot that could have been occupied by a real soldier. A patriot that doesn't whine and cry because nobody bows down to him. What a moron, 5 months away from his degree from West Point, his ticket would have been punched for life. He was on active duty before attending W.P. so he knows nobody in the military gives a hoot about his religious beliefs as long as he doesn't slaughter goats in his quarters. There are young men and women that would jump at the chance of attending West Point and recieving a regular army commission. He probably knew he was going to flunk his finals.

He is a wimp,and needs his ass whipped!

I would have to agree. Who would quit their schooling over having to attend religious functions? He KNEW when he entered West Point, what was expected of him....

I don't go into a secular school and demand that they automatically make allowances for me for being a christian. If the tests are held on a Sunday, then I have to go. That means I can separate church and state.

What makes him think he deserves special treatment?

There is much more to this story than is reported.

I for one do not understand how any one can call themselve an atheist because by definition it means you are a person who dnies or doesn't believe in a supreme being. Well in order not to believe you have to understand that there is something not to believe in. Additionally this country has become a country that belives it is alright for every one else to stand up for what they believe in but as soon as someone with Christian values stands up for what they believe in its a problem. I appluad the gentlemen of the US Army who opposed of this cadet's views and will support them until the end of days. I am a believer in the most high God and I will never back down those who will not acknowledge His soverignty. Jesus is and always will be the most improtant thing in my life.

Unhappy, but you see, West Point is NOT a religious school. It would be unconstitutional for it to be so. That is the entire premise of this issue. No amount of tacit acceptance of how people traditionally held beliefs on campus changes the unconstitutionality of the fact either.

God bless this man for standing up for his (non) religious beliefs

(....hmmm...wait a minute. Does that make any sense?)

If what this former cadet says is true, then those of you arguing that this is just another example of Christians being denied the right to stand up for themselves belong in one of two camps:

1. People who didn't read the article

2. People who comprise the majority of this country. Instead of facts, you prefer when people affirm your overly-emotional opinions of things.

If the allegations here are true, military officials used affiliation of religion (or non-affiliation) to abuse and deny the rights of not simply citizens, but active members of the US military. Again, if all is true, these officers pissed on the Constitution they were sworn to protect and sent the message to subordinates that the Constitution is not the law of the land, and will certainly not protect their inferior status.

Of course, we need to hear exactly what happened here, but one last time, if these accusations are true, those of you defending the military officials have an inexcusable argument and you do a disservice to what it means to be American despite all your fiery patriotic posturing. At the very least I'll leave you with this, if military officials indeed behaved in this manner, they cannot be said to be men of Christ.

I am an atheist in the foxhole. I have been serving for 8 years. I have had top notch evaluations every single time. I was sitting in a group with other commanders not long ago when the guy who evaluated me as the best told the group that he did not trust or understand atheists and did not believe they could live the Army values (this is a senior Officer). Obviously I have kept my religious non-belief held tight for 8 years. But I have had religious words thrust upon me and the Soldiers I work with at least 10 times per year for the past 8 years.

Oh and by the way, I know full well that if my evaluator had known I was an atheist not only would I not have been rated at or near the top each time, I would have been middle of the pack or lower. It would have negatively impacted my career. My senior rater was a good man and I would still very much enjoy serving under his command, but his faith would have blinded him to my solid performance. So to not be discriminated on a religious basis in the Army you hide any counter to mainstream religious beliefs.

Chaplains should still be available and within the units, but they should not speak at every ceremony and military ball, they should be there as counselors for those that wish to see them. Religious content should be highly frowned upon, especially from the highest ranks.

I commend this kid for having the guts to stand up and say he did not want to spend a career in an organization that is counter to his beliefs. As for me, I am waiting until I have reached a couple of career milestones before I am openly atheist in uniform. For the time being I have to live with the fact that I am a supporter of the constitution and the laws of our land and that any Soldiers under my command will be be persecuted on religious grounds.

Unhappy, but you see, West Point is NOT a religious school. It would be unconstitutional for it to be so. That is the entire premise of this issue. No amount of tacit acceptance of how people traditionally held beliefs on campus changes the unconstitutionality of the fact either.

aardvark: Like many people, he was not forced to go there. He chose. Which means he was required to fulfill all of his duties as an officer.

It's funny how all these secular schools won't take into account what christians go through. Even on most secular campuses, you see "rules" being broken.

example: No chalk writing on school grounds -except when the gay clubs do it.... then its allowed

(And yes, they do make a point to erase any christian references, but ignore the ones they like.)

You were so mired in your thoughts to write a "good" post, you missed two facts. West Point is the same as it was 100 yrs ago. Second, the Drama Queen knew it and it will come out that this was planned all along.

Big difference between violating a law of a college or state and being denied a right protected by the Constiution of the United States.

Sorry, I missed an important word in the last sentence.

For the time being I have to live with the fact that I am a supporter of the constitution and the laws of our land and that any Soldiers under my command will not be persecuted on religious grounds.

my take is he is a coward and facing the fact of being sent over to afghanistan and leading a squad of solidiers in a platoon just scared him. because that is where he was headed which is sop for 1st year lt's

Unhappy-1583758 wrote: "I don't go into a secular school and demand that they automatically make allowances for me for being a christian."

that's just it, Unhappy. Our Military Acadamies aren't RELIGIOUS SCHOOLS!!! By requiring cadets to participate in religious observance, the acadamies are becoming de facto parochial institutions. That's what this young man is protesting. To re-work your statement to apply, you'd have to say that "I don't go into a christian school and demand that they automatically make allowances for me for being an atheist". He went into a secular military institution (as all our military acadamies are required to be, by law) and is told that to succeed, he must participate in religious observance. The military is NOT a religious institution. And the officers are prohibited, again by LAW - military *and* civilian, from proselytizing and requiring their subordinates to participate in sectarian observance. But they aren't adhereing to that standard. And nobody in the upper echelons seems to care. So this kid makes a statement that he will NOT stand by, and he will NOT participate, while the US Military is converted into The Army of God.

good on him, I say.

By requiring cadets to participate in religious observance, the acadamies are becoming de facto parochial institutions. That's what this young man is protesting.

Mara: Wouldn't he know what the school expected of him during the first semester? Why would he wait 3 1/2 years before he finally said something?

You are giving this guy too much credit. Either he agreed to put up with it (which is probably true), OR there is something else to this story that the article is not covering.

Carl- Would your take be the same if his allegations are proved true?

Unhappy, He chose to go there, but 'fulfilling one's duty' is not the same as converting or going against one's religious beliefs because your CO told you to. The issue is being treated differently for the religion or philosophy, in this case, being harangued for being atheist. As a military school, shouldn't there be separation of church and state? Clearly that's being violated, and this kid actually had the gumption to stand up and say that things aren't right instead of just taking it like a good little sheep. It takes a lot of mettle to stand up against an opposing force like that.

Carl, as the inkeeper is, so he sees his guests.

robbopaloobop

God bless this man for standing up for his (non) religious beliefs

(....hmmm...wait a minute. Does that make any sense?)

yes, it does, because its what you want...and Im sure this is what "God" was meant for...would this guy deny your words, no..because you didnt make him light a candle and pray before you were willing to say it...that is what freedom means. Thank you...Your words come form you, not your church or your pastor...but you as a token of understanding, not force. This is the very thing i believe religion was meant for, YOU, not me, but you...and i hope when i tell you i do not believe in "God" you will respect that and say it without sarcasm...because that is what is for Me, not you, but me. I will never want you to believe what i think...because that is not for you, its for me. much like my opinion is for me....and should not reflect on you. I am an individual...and i thank you for being one too.

Carl, Second Lieutenants are not squad leaders, they are platoon leaders. Staff Sergeants are squad leaders and sergeants (E5) are team leaders.

Unhappy wrote: Wouldn't he know what the school expected of him during the first semester? Why would he wait 3 1/2 years before he finally said something? --

What if, in the first three years, he sucked it up because he really, really wanted to make a career as a military officer? What *if* it took him three years to determine that such discrimination is institutional and not centered on one person or small cabal? What *if* it took him some time to realize that the 'teachers' at the school are, in fact, violating the Code and Federal Law and that the Higher Ups are either complicit or apathetic...he's should suck it up because there's some sort of statute of limitations on systematic discrimination?

KEVIN GAUTREAU

He is a wimp,and needs his ass whipped!

Yea, that's what Christ would do.

Well in order not to believe you have to understand that there is something not to believe in.

RBryan: Um, what??? So, in order to not believe in the Tooth Fairy, I must first understand that there IS a Tooth Fairy, which I choose to not believe in? Ditto for Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Your logic is, well, illogical, to say the least!

There is a Middle Eastern word for West Point and the Air Force Acadamy in Colorado Springs;

Madrassas.

This guy is absolutely right. Its time to stop pussy footing around. WE ARE CHRISTIAN. What we need is to pass a Constitutional amendment stating that Christianity is the law of the land.

Getmadstaymad: trying to start a REAL war, are we?

What we need is to pass a Constitutional amendment stating that Christianity is the law of the land.

Would never make it through Congress let alone the states. Most Americans are pretty happy having the First Amendment.

For the record, I am not advocating that we actually pass a constitutional amendment making Christianity the official law of the land. I would not want that anymore than I would want Islam or Hinduism to be made the official religion of the US; or for all religions in general to be outlawed.

I was simply using my "Christianity amendment" post above as an example of how the majority CAN rule, in spite of the position taken by an earlier commentor.

I've never been in the military. Found out it was not for me by participating in ROTC program in college and continued on in an academic career. I don't have any bad feelings about the military at all. In fact, there have been many who have made fantastic sacrifices for our country. What this young fellow is doing is very strange to say the least - simply doesn't add up. He certainly must have been able to collect enough information in over three years as a West Point cadet in order to put together a book. A book with his paticular point of view as an atheist could be biased and hurtful to the Academy. I am an atheist myself and I'm sure that there must be some at the Academy and throughout the military who are more or less predgudicial in their judgement with respect atheism and other religions as well. That is no reason to condemn the whole institution or make out that it is some evil scheme by so called "fundalmentists". We all aren't perfect and all knowing are we. Trust and mutual respect is the key to getting on with things that need to be done. This poor boy has made a serious wrong turn, hopefully he will not gain from it.

This guy is absolutely right. Its time to stop pussy footing around. WE ARE CHRISTIAN. What we need is to pass a Constitutional amendment stating that Christianity is the law of the land.

Sorry bub, but our nation is secular. Go read the words of the Founding Father on the matter.

" Frankly, I would rather not have atheists in the military - you don't believe in anything but yourselves and I wouldn't want a kid of mine fighting alongside someone as arrogant and self centered as atheists all are"

Thank you for proving this guy's point. I and many of my friends are atheists. If we didn't care about one another, how could we be friends? I am also lucky enough to have Christian, Muslim, and Taoist friends. And despite what one guy says about taxing churches, not all of us feel that way. Everyone deserves religious freedom. They also deserve the right to not have to sit through sickening prayer services if they don't want to. Well gee, let's pray instead of doing something useful. Give me, this guy, and all atheists a break. True Christianity shouldn't be about pushing some agenda every two seconds.

Amen, motegaze. If the Believers want to believe it is okay. Once they cross the threshold by preaching, mandating prayer parties or any other nonsense then they have violated my rights. Of course many are so brainwashed to converting all to believe like them they have forgotten there is more than one school of thought. How about the agnostic group? Prove there is a deity or deities.

the militant atheism is just as big of a threat. neither side can live in harmony side by side. the religious want to push their religion on everyone, and the athiests somehow think that it is their great duty to rid the world of the great evil of religion. both sides have their heads up their a$$'s...

I don't consider evangelical worshipers as a threat.This man made allegations.I want to see his proof.I think he is shirking his duty.

Atheists are not a threat, but extremist christians are. Atheists just don't want people shoving their religion down their throats, evangelicals are the ones trying to convert the world.

Kind of like what this guy is doing right now?

Anyone who has visited West Point, knows that this is just more propaganda by MSNBC. First it was the " gay wedding" ; now it is the cadet who leaves based upon different beliefs.

Why can't MSNBC do a real article- say the thousands of christians who are discriminated against when they attend secular schools.

Forced to attend religious services? ( hahah) What about being forced to NOT attend religious services, because your professor decides to hold class or a have a paper due on that day. A 'day of rest' isn't a valid excuse to a professor.

Jake, I doubt it. There are some pretty nutty atheists out there too, the ones that want everyone to stop using the term Christmas, the ones that want "One Nation Under God" off the money, and there's certainly no end to the atheists who slam Christianity and other religions. So, no. You can't defend non-religious lunacy any more than I can defend religious nuts.... and I won't, because they're the ones that make the NORMAL religious folks look bad.

@ Azindy do you have an example?

Pray tell, what is "militant atheistm?" Funny how nobody can give any examples of it when I ask...

Why can't MSNBC do a real article- say the thousands of christians who are discriminated against when they attend secular schools.

Forced to attend religious services? ( hahah) What about being forced to NOT attend religious services, because your professor decides to hold class or a have a paper due on that day. A 'day of rest' isn't a valid excuse to a professor.

What secular schools prevent you from attending religious services? What are you, a *Fifth* Day Adventist?

As an atheist, I don't care what you believe, as long as you keep it out of my face.

So called evangelical Xtians are the greatest threat to freedom and the constitution in the US today.

Indeed! And they go by the Name of David Barton or the Wallbuilders, and the like.

the militant atheism is just as big of a threat.

I'm not aware of any atheists striving to remove religion or god entirely from our freedoms. Are you?

and the athiests somehow think that it is their great duty to rid the world of the great evil of religion.

Sounds like you listen to too much anti-atheism propaganda.

the ones that want "One Nation Under God" off the money

God wasn't origianlly on the money and its inclusion there, as mandated by law, is inherently unconstitutional!

and there's certainly no end to the atheists who slam Christianity and other religions.

The reverse is true too.

You are certainly correct, however, all those complaints were the gossip, backroom/bathroom type. No one had enough courage to bring it to the front page of national attention. Blake Page did it.

Actually no, we had a friend who filed a complaint when the BN commander kept bringing up the Christian Officers Organization at command and staff. Not national news but it took some nerve to do it.

you mean there's a chapel and chaplains on the military installation?!?!? or one of the religious clubs is sponsoring some sort of event? gasp! commander better not tell anyone about it. word might get out...

This was a commander emphasizing a religiously orientated organization to officers and NCOs under his command which is inappropriate. It's not the presence of Chaplains or even religious events, it's leaders and commanders using undo influence and being biased that is unlawful.

if there is undue pressure to attend and participate, then that is not kosher. if he was just disseminating information about events or functions, with the intent that the leadership and staff in attendence pass that info down the chain of command, then perfectly acceptable.

There is a difference but when it's a perceived bias then it's an issue for those that do not participate. NIORD, yea, I'm going to name names......

There have been a number of incidents of religious worship and events made manditory for soldiers since 9/11. They have been reported on in the Army Times, but few have made it to national news coverage. They tend to be hushed up, unless they involve a lot of money spent on the "entertainment." A prayer by the Chaplain at an official event is not the problem. Being told you can choose not to attend the mandatory religious concert, but if you make that choice you will be required to clean the entire barracks before the rest of the soldiers get back is. It runs in my mind it was Ft Bragg where that happened, but I am not positive.

I was wrong, it wasn't Bragg, it was Eustis and Lee. I can't post links so if you are interested you will have to google it yourself.

For the most part, among the enlisted ranks nobody cares. However I would note that even in basic training (Ft. Leonard Wood) the "set up" was this: If you went to church on Sunday you got to leave the barracks, attend the ceremonies, etc... Meanwhile everyone that didn't go to church got to clean the barracks.

But that's the enlisted ranks.

There has been a lot of evidence over the past several years that the military academies (particularly the Air Force Academy and now West Point) have skewed heavily Evangelical Christian. Likewise most of the chaplains in service would qualify as Evangelicals. Now...it may be that once you're out of the Academy nobody cares...or maybe it isn't. Either way, it's been conclusively proven at the Air Force Academy, so it isn't like this problem hasn't occurred in the past and may well have occurred here as well.

The cadet in question is no "wuss" or "wimp" if he made it through 3 1/2 years at West Point. He'd have been kicked out long ago if his conduct or academics were unsatisfactory, and already made it through the worst (physically) portion of the training there. He was not kicked out...he voluntarily resigned.

The cadet in question is no "wuss" or "wimp" if he made it through 3 1/2 years at West Point.

Jmacq1:So after 3 1/2 years, is when he finally gets upset that he has to attend religious services?

You can't be this ignorant.

if there is undue pressure to attend and participate, then that is not kosher

BD, you're mixing your religions up, man.

So after 3 1/2 years, is when he finally gets upset that he has to attend religious services?

You can't be this ignorant.

Apparently you can, Unhappy. This was probably over many incidents over his entire time there, apparently enough for him to fill a book with. His frustration built over time, until it was the straw that broke the camel's back. It's not likely that it's over having to attend services, but rather the treatment he was receiving for not converting... continual harrassment and prostheletizing. At some point, he just wasn't going to take any more.

Here's that link, Amy. It wasn't church, though, it was a command-sponsored Christian Evangelical band concert. If the soldiers didn't go, they were confined to barracks all weekend and forced to clean them from top to bottom. Disgraceful.

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2010/8/19/113223/843

Just out of curiosity, why can't you post links? I've read people saying that before -- is it because of work computers?

It's "The Point"!

what do you know?

Besides not reading the article.

Having served and known at least 34 USMA graduates during OIF/OEF position's ranging from PL's to BDE CDR all Combat Arms. They have given me there spill about life as a cadet at the Academy each story was similar but they weren't alike. The perception I got from these men is that they did believe in a higher power but never did they try to push there views on others. Before we went on patrol's we prayed and no one objected. When Our brothers were maimed and killed we prayed together as a family and no one objected. What I have seen now is leadership that does not care for it's Soldier's and some Officer's that think they know everything refuse to listen to there NCO's and have that mentality I went to West Point I know everything!! There has been A stigmata has been that only if you went to West Point and graduated you were fit to lead!! BOGUS I know several men that went to ROTC or came up the ranks who were Mustangs and were great leaders. I don't like what this kid did in my eyes he is a punk. I'm implying the quality of leadership is slowly getting worse must be something in the water!!!

Too many people and blood thirsty lawyers will help this kid. They already think he can be compared to Rosa Parks. It's pathetic that he is already getting so much credit.

totherepublic, that's like saying,"Pics or it didn't happen," to a sexual harrassment or rape victim. This is why we have a justice system, to defend against morons like you.

Yeah, those bloodthirsty lawyers... Where do they get off standing up for the whole "Constitution" thing?

Good post BD.

Not a good post BD. In point of fact a straw man argument. The former cadet is not trying to abolish religion from the military. He is speaking out against mandatory participation in religious proceedings, or the intrusion of religion into official matters.

An atheist or a non-Christian shouldn't have to "stand silently while others pray" at a mandatory or official event. You speak of a leader having to attend to the spiritual needs of his troops, but casually dismiss the rights of those that are not religious (or in this case Christian). Typical double standard.

He knew what he was getting into when he entered that school. It is no different than the thousands of christian students who attend secular schools.

Paper due on Sunday? Too bad..... No 'day of rest' for those students.

So why should he get special treatment.

I have never met a Christian who actually takes Sunday as a 'day of rest', other than maybe going to church. People just don't do this anymore... maybe the Baptists, I dunno. And, well, old and traditional as the Netherlands is, nothing is open Sundays. Kind of undermining my point, and having a paper due on a weekend is kind of out there as it is... but if this was the case, in my eyes those citing religious reasons are just using it as an excuse because they didn't get it done on time in the first place. Most people, Christian or otherwise, would shrug and say, okay, that's weird, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

Sorry BD, but this man put integrity above a rewarding career. That shows that he would have been an excellent officer in this nation's armed forces.

Jmacq1, an atheist shouldn't have to stand silently while Christians pray?

Yes, he should. Because it's a custom. It's something you do for people because it's polite. And important to them. You say "but official events..." doesn't matter.

You have to stand silently, then say "here here" or "to the King" when they toast leaders of allied countries (i.e. King of Saudi Arabia) at these miltary banquets.

That King Abdullah is pretty oppressive, Cadet Paige, I hope you exlaimed "NOT!" or something likewise obnoxious during the toast. Principles-gotta stand for them!

We work in Islamic countries. We do things in these Islamic countries out of deference to Islam. It's polite. It's important to them.

There are difficult people who go through life stirring up problems. This kid is one of them.

Lol, what does he do during a meal prayer at his family reunion? Atheists aren't precious. I don't like prayers any more than you do, but I realize that I'm not too special to give a little and allow others a liberty that is so important to them.

How about a little fire for your starwman BD? What the people were doing at West Point was ILLEGAL. It is a government facility and they are not suppose to push a religious agenda. Why should non-christians "be polite and be quiet" when christians decide that tradition is more important than the law. Being coersed to pray during required official events matters because it is directly against the Constitution.

No US citizen should be required to partisipate in a religion they are not part of.

Hey Unhappy,

Religion is a choice. Atheism is the natural state of things. Secular public institutions in the USA are the rule, not the exception. "Christian Warriors" belong in the brig, not running military training institutions.

End. Of. Story.

Nobody is trying to "take away your values." They're just trying to not have someone ELSE'S values pushed on them. Funny how you think it's OK for Christians to force their values on others but not OK for others to push back.

You're a hypocrite to sit here and claim "if you don't like me, stay away from me and good riddance" when that's basically exactly what the cadet in question is saying. He doesn't want Christian religion forced on him in official and mandatory events.

Then he should have gone to a different school. Nobody told him to attend West Point.

He attended West Point under the assumption that they would follow the Constitutional separation of church and state. When he became disillusioned of that, he made a conscientious objection to this blatant unlawful practice and refused to be a part of it. If only more people in the military had this man's integrity, we might not have come to this unfortunate crossroads.

Which God? In case you forgot this is a secular country. West point is open to ALL US citizens, not just the christian ones.

Yep. And bald is a hair color.

A "belief" and a "religion" are not the same thing.

Yep. And bald is a hair color.

I believe the term you atheists like to use is " a lack of belief" in hair.

Just because you don't have it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, right?

Atheism is protected under the first amendment just like religion is, so why shouldn't it be treated as a religion?

Unhappy, I've been slamming you a lot here, but 'lack of belief in hair' was pretty funny. *l*

arguebutfair, Just like ticking the 'none' box under religious preference questions, if you should ever run into any. There still has to be an option for everyone.

Atheism is a religion in the same way that "not collecting stamps" is a hobby.

I think Agnosticism would be "not collecting stamps". Atheism looks like collecting negatively valued stamps to cancel out other people's stamps.

That's what it looks like to me. I respect anyone's faith that allows them to sleep at night with an "answer" to unanswerable questions. In that way, Christianity, Islam, Bhuddism, and Atheism are alike.

No, atheism is just a lack of belief in gods. Agnosticism is just the position that the gods are unknowable. Completely different. So no, Christianity, Islam, Bhuddism, and Atheism are not alike.

If Atheism is a religion then not-playing-football is a sport.

In Atheism, you have to prove the existance of a god. That's not belief. Saying there is a god despite the lack of evidence is a belief.

If Atheism was a religion, how would you feel about an Atheist drill sergent berating believers the same way this cadet was treated?

Isn't atheism a 'religion' too?

No!

These people have 'faith' that there is no God or Creator or what have you.

That's an oxymoron!

If it is so prestigious, and he puts so much weight into his oath and the constitution, wouldn't he be aware that there is NOTHING in the constitution that separates church and state, other than prohibiting the establishment or practice of a religion.

Really? So rules and regulations that specify that it's illegal to discriminate on the basis of faith (or lack thereof) means nothing?

Good luck with that.

There is very little difference between religious harassment and sexual harassment, they are both power trips.

Call me crazy, but wouldn't be surprised if this young man has some mental health issues.

Ah yes, the "He must have mental health issues" argument.

As opposed to feeling as strongly about his principles as some vocal Christians do about theirs. Because it's unfathomable to those Christians that anyone could believe in something as strongly as they do about God without God being involved.

He made it 3 1/2 years at West Point. If his conduct or academic performance were unsatisfactory, he wouldn't have made it that far. West Point doesn't play around where that stuff is concerned. If he was in fact on the verge of "flunking out" or had a history of poor behavior I would imagine the Army Public Affairs would have made that known.

okie joe, you're being too sensitive. Mess with me for my lack of faith, and I appreciate your concern for my soul, but I'm fine-really. I'm not sensitive about not having spiritual answers. If you've found "answers" I'm glad you found something that works for you!

Mess with my bum, and it's a different story. So no, religious harassment and sexual harassment are not at all alike.

The Constitution also forbids religious requirements for public office. By requiring cadets to attend religious events West Point was establishing one religion over others.

wouldn't he be aware that there is NOTHING in the constitution that separates church and state, other than prohibiting the establishment or practice of a religion.

Actually, separation of church and state IS in the Constitution, specifically the first Amendment, as deemed by the SCOTUS itself! The Founding Fathers were quite clear about separartion too!

So no, religious harassment and sexual harassment are not at all alike.

Depends on who you ask and who's being harrassed.

relaxdontdoit, you are expressing the difference between "harrassment" and assault. If someone is messing with your 'bum', that's assault. Harrassment is when they follow you around commenting on your bum, discriminating against you because of your bum, and using your bum as an excuse to ostracize you.

So you are wrong. Harrassment is harrassment, whether it's sexual or religious.

Ah... you are correct, Mara.

He knew that after graduation his reputation would follow him into the field and he would get all the worst scut jobs available. He would be ignored for promotions and advanced training, placing him on a dead end trip out.

dotts, have you never been in a situation that, over time, become untenable? I'm sure he didn't think he'd be *required* to have religious beliefs to be a soldier. I'm sure he believed that the officers were honest, upstanding men who adhered to the highest measure of military deportment, not wanna-be preachers looking for unsuspecting prey. He wanted to be a military officer like he thought military officers should be. I'm sure he didn't know that belief in your god would be a leadership requirement at a secular military academy. I really doubt he thought that he'd be actively discriminated against by those who had the right to command him. And after three and a half years of eating that kind of garbage, you find it hard to understand why he finally walked away and refused to condone or participate in such illegal (though tacitly condoned) activities? I don't find it difficult to understand at all.

No, it doesn't work like that. He would have graduated to a 50K/year job and been promoted to Captain before he left the military after 5 years, making almost 100K at that point (all bennies included). Those promotions are fairly automatic. From there, he could have gone into mid-level corporate work or a top-teir grad school (think HBS, Kellogg, Wharton).

This kid has permanently damaged his future careers, military and civilian. Even atheist employers will look down on his not completing West Point. Mickey Weinstein would pay Mr. Paige less money working for him, having not completed West Point.

Either Paige was in the process of being kicked out of West Point (not unusual at all right up to the day before graduation) or he is a very short-sighted kid.

Or maybe he just has convictions that would not let him support a blatantly unlawful practice.

It's called "having priciples", something many of the elitest christian posters here know nothing about.

He would have earned credibility by graduating. By choosing not to graduate, he's required to pay the education or serve as an enlisted soldier for about 2 years. His actions aren't rational even by his own explanation.

How does putting himself in the position to take orders rather than give orders, while still serving in the "corrupt army" (a) make a statement or (b) do anything other than empower the offending officers over him?

I know you guys feel a kinship with him, but I suspect his classmates would tell you a different story than the one he's telling you.

He would have earned credibility by graduating. By choosing not to graduate, he's required to pay the education or serve as an enlisted soldier for about 2 years. His actions aren't rational even by his own explanation.

For note, in the story's update he was given an honorable discharge and the cost waived.

Bull. I just retired from the air force. we had no institutional pushing religious problems. on rare, and yes i mean rare, occassion someone would overstep those bounds and push their religion, and when someone complained, it was stopped. there was no retailiation. Schwartz didn't put an end to squat, he sent out a friggin policy memo lol. There will always be someone who will cross that line. so what exactly is this "freedom from religion" you speak of? do you think the world will be without religion, and every church, religious symbol, saying, expression, so on and so forth banished from the face of the earth just because you should have this made up "freedom from religion"? man up, learn to ignore it like the rest of us, and press on with pride...

I only know what I read in numerous articles about the situation. If it wasn't a problem, why did Gen. Schwartz have to issue a memorandum? Sounds like I struck a nerve. The freedom from religion I speak of goes to the INDIVIDUAL freedom of choice we all enjoy under the Constitution. Just because you are a Christian, doesn't mean I have to be one. Just because someone else is a Muslim, doesn't mean YOU have to be one. Just because someone believes in God doesn't mean someone else has to. Even God gives us ALL a choice if you believe in the Holy Bible. People who "cross that line" are WRONG in doing so. It doesn't matter if their Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or any other religion. The primary mission of the Armed Forces of the United States of America is to protect this country against all enemies foreign and domestic. Missionary work is not in their mission statement. In Mark 12:17 Jesus said; "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." Even Jesus didn't "cross the line."

you are right, no one in the military should be prosletizing, doing missionary work, so on and so forth. but religion does exist, people will practice it in the civilian world and the military world. you can't get away from it, there is no such thing as "freedom from religion" because that goes against "freedom of religion", which does exist. freedom of and freedom from can't exist in the same time and place, kinda like those sci-fi movies. the best you can do is just tolerate it, smile and let them have their little religious thing. trust me, doesn't hurt a bit.

now if the god squad tries to take away my beer on sunday while watching the game, then we got problems!

BD, I respect ALL religions. My family is pretty diverse. My mother was Lutheran, my father Baptist, and my sister Catholic. My parents gave me the freedom to seek my own spirituality. My paternal grandmother was a devout Southern Baptist. I would go to church with her often as a small child. What little I know of the Bible I learned from her. The woman could have taught theology. It was she who taught me God gives us choice. I was exposed to religion. It was never forced upon me or my siblings. Thank you for your service. Former Air Force myself. ONE OVER ALL.

there is no such thing as "freedom from religion" because that goes against "freedom of religion", which does exist. freedom of and freedom from can't exist in the same time and place,

Bullsh!t. Let me guess, you retired as an E3, right? Only someone with that low of a rank could possibly be this ignorant.

"Freedom of Religion" and "Freedom from Religion" can and do exist in the same time in place. One is a choice - "Freedom of Religion" - and one is the absence of being forced to make a choice - "Freedom from Religion". Some what simple - though if you'd like, I'm sure I could Explain It Like You're 5...

BD you cannot have "freedom of religion" without "freedom from religion". As for your own experiences, I suspect you are either lying or in denial. They didn't affect you so you turned a blind eye. No one is saying soldiers can't have religion, but they can't force other people to partisipate in it. First you say "we had no problems" then you admitted there were some. There were probably a lot more but you didn't let yourself see it.

those bible beaters must have been beaten back at the gates, because i served from 1989 until recently. promoted all the way up, my lack of religion was never a factor. probably because it isn't part of the promotion system, not marked on any appraisal, not evaluated by any promotion test, not scrutinized by any promotion board, and not anotated on any data brief the promotion board sees. and the promotion board changes every year. so i'm not sure how the promotion board ensures it is made up of bible beaters, nd how those bible beaters on a promotion board in texas will know the religious affiliation of any potential promotee around the globe. please explain.

My lack of religion was not an issue when I served either. I did have to endure a lot of prayers at dining in/out banquets, the chaplain blessing the mission we were about to go out on and the like, but it did not bother me in that I'm not a "Shiite" Atheist. On my dog tags it said "None" for religion and unless one of my soldiers saw it and asked me about it, I never talked about it. I hate proselytizing from believers as well as non believers.

cappy, do you mean you just stood there quietly, let them do their little religious thing, and then just pressed on like nothing happened? you can do that?! though pitching a fit about violation of rights was the required and appropriate action...

BD, most of us just sit or stand quietly while the chaplain does his thing and then we get on with the job. After all, for now we are in the minority so we just watch. That is what I call freedom of religion; you can practice your religion all you want, just don't practice it on me.

@okie joe and BD. . .

". . .most of us just sit or stand quietly while the chaplain does his thing. . ."

So you would have no problem with, say, a Satanist chaplain invoking the blessing of Satan?

What about a Greek Mythologist invoking the blessing of Zeus to help with the cause?

What about a Norse Mythologist invoking the blessing of Thor?

What about a Pastafarian Priest invoking the blessing of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

You would not find anything wrong with these?

Religion is less of an issue among enlisted ranks as it is among Officers. Being non-religious won't affect you much as an enlisted man. As an officer...it can be a whole different ball game.

So unless BD was a 4 star general...the concern may still be a very real one, and I'll posit this: If an enlisted man were as "vocal" an atheist as many Christians are about their faith, do you really think they wouldn't suffer professional repercussions from that? Sure, "just ignore it" works just fine when the Battalion Chaplain is giving his prayers, but it's telling that they don't usually offer the OPTION of being there when the prayer is spoken or not. Now imagine the outcry if instead of a Christian chaplain giving a prayer, a Muslim chaplain got up and offered a prayer to Allah. Or an Atheist officer got up and offered a lecture on how God isn't real. How would these examples be any less wrong than the Christian prayer?

I beg to differ with one point, Jmacq1. I was an Officer and I never had a problem being non religious. Again, I did not proselytize or pitch a fit whenever there was a religious event, I just did as I wished others would do: keep my beliefs to myself. One of my NCOs invited me to church several times and I and I gladly went with him whenever he asked. I do wish that as a people we would move beyond the need to believe in a supernatural being that created all that is, but I don't see the need to bellyache about religious freedom every time I see a nativity scene or a cross on the side of the road where there was an accident.

I retired from the Air Force Reserve last year. Bibles on display throughout the building, prayer at all events. The whole person concept now includes a spiritual section, same as the Army and Marines. The Air Force Academy is constantly in the news for religious extremism. Loved the Air Force in 1985 and counted the days to retirement.

Captain Jack Wigal,

Out of respect and being an adult with manners 'No Iwould not mind', I would stand by while they did their ceremony, as I do not believe their way... I would expect the same response during the ceremony of my beliefs... You do not have to believe, but out of good conscience, manners, and being an adult, stand by during the ceremony...

Have you ever attended the Point? Any military school or academy? Me, well I'm a "Kemper Camper", this is nothing new just surprised it took so long.

I spent several years in the Air Force...I saw this behavior for myself and was, at that time, a "Chrisitian".....I've come to realize that many (though not all) "Christians" have an agenda to convert any living, breathing being and if one doesn't convert, one is told you are "going to hell"...yet those same hypocrites will exclude from the so called "love of god" anyone who doesn't blindly follow that path. The god I serve and love is one that welcomes and includes, not EX-cludes. It's those hypocrites who will cover up and lie about the sins THEY commit (i.e. the Roman Catholic Church and other denominations hiding those pedophiles who prey on children). Give me an atheist, humanist, agnostic any day who is honest and who will go out of his/her way to make the world a better place.

is that the God you serve. I never say that I am perfect, far from it. Yes, He includes everyone, but He also condemns sin. It is not up to a person or Christian to say you or I or anyone is going to hell. Though it is clearly written in His word. It does expressly say Christians are to spread the Word, both parts of it, the good as well as the hell.

is that the God you serve. I never say that I am perfect, far from it. Yes, He includes everyone, but He also condemns sin. It is not up to a person or Christian to say you or I or anyone is going to hell. Though it is clearly written in His word. It does expressly say Christians are to spread the Word, both parts of it, the good as well as the hell.

is that the God you serve. I never say that I am perfect, far from it. Yes, He includes everyone, but He also condemns sin. It is not up to a person or Christian to say you or I or anyone is going to hell. Though it is clearly written in His word. It does expressly say Christians are to spread the Word, both parts of it, the good as well as the hell.

OH come on! You are exaggerating and extrapilating worse case scenarios! You are painting with a broad brush! I was raised a military brat and had to attend services at Langley AFB, Lackland, Andrews etc....I was indoctrinated as a child into catholicism and at 15 when I finished the old and new testaments (right before I was to go through a process called confirmation) I told my parents I had issues with many passages in the bible and I no longer wanted to go to church or catechism. They grudgingly accepted my request and from then on until I moved out at age 19 I was not "
harrassed, pressured to "go back to the church" or any of that stuff by friends neighbors or family. Yes there were some horrible things done and covered up such as the molestations, the cover ups etc... And please show me the statistics where it shows atheists, humanists and agnostics have never committed sexual assault, pediaphilia, molestation etc....??? And by the way, it is a statistical fact that CHristians on a percentage basis as whole donate more money and time and activity to charities and helping the poor on a NATIONAL AND WORLDWIDE scale than any religious or non religious groups combined (even your aetheists, agnostics , humanists blah blah etc... Give me a break. You must have had a really bad experiences because your views and beliefs that most all are out to convert etc..... is complete and utter nonsense when held to reality. The majoirty of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Quakers, etc... DO NOT try to force you to convert. This isn't the "Crusades"

Cat - I'm a Veteran also. I knew people of all religions and some without any religion, or at least professed not to have any belief in God. The truth is religion was never discussed much that I knew of. However, it is every Christian’s duty to share the Gospel, in hopes of putting someone on the path to Eternal happiness. Although, everyone has their free agency and can accept or reject their Heavenly Father and the gifts that he wants to give them. If someone does this with other than love and as a selfless act, they are missing the example that the Savior set. I've had people of other religions than mine; tell me that I was going to hell too. They profess to know more about what I believe than I do about my own religion. I rarely let it get to me, because I know the truth about what I believe and that the Savior knows my heart and faith. Don't give up because someone has hurt your feelings or offended you. If they have unfairly judged or treated you, they do not speak or act for God. They are just a mortal man / woman that doesn’t understand the Savior's example on humility and love. Pride is never a good thing for either the believer or non-believer.

I am confused about one thing that you said. It seems you felt excluded. Excluded from what. If you are not interested, why would you be mad that someone leaves you alone?

No one can tell you that you are going to Hell. The Judgment of the Savior, will determine rewards or punishments. Heavenly Father loves all of his children, even the ones that reject him. Eternal salvation is based on God's laws. He doesn't want you to fail but in order for the law to be just, your free agency comes at a price. If you fail, to return to the Father that loves you, it will be based on your choices, actions (Whether you accept the Savior). Success is very simple, accept the Savior's atoning sacrifice and ask for forgiveness for your mistakes / transgressions. Then try never to repeat the mistakes again. If you are like me, repentance is a never ending process but I keep trying.

I wish the best for you and hope to learn of your success in receiving Eternal Happiness. I wish the same for myself.

I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and yes, I'm a Christian.

Bob. I spent a long time in the military and there was no forced church services on anyone period. There was no forced prayer and if someone was trying to get you into a religion it was probably personal beliefs of other soldiers and not a military ordered assault. It was very ovbious and clear in all the units I served in that religous or non-religous beliefs were respected. If people think your a wacko and you have a screw loose like the guy this story is talking about then it's their problem. If Page wanted to truly make a difference he would have stayed in a used the proper military channels which goes all the way to the president. Usually it takes one call to a congressman and the problem is addressed swiftly. If you join something you do not believe in then why did he join in the first place. A dollar bill says "In God we Trust" on it I guess since your not religous you won't touch the money?

Because, Mr. Anderson, the U.S. Military has to adhere to the U.S. Constitution.

I have to literally LAUGH at the stone age mentality of most of the "believers" responding. It's not like there is ANY "substantiation" to ANY of the dogmatic BULLS HIT - indeed, IF we examine the basis for ANY religion (particularly the one named "christianity" and apparently favored in the US) we find a massive amount of HYPE mixed with a bunch of "good ideas" promoted thru fear of DOGMA and retaliation of some mythical sky fairy... oh wait, that's the OLD book - the NEW book is far less vindictive.

SO I CHOOSE to tell the purveyors (as in "sellers") of the drivel to TAKE A HIKE and not to let the door hit them in the ass as they LEAVE. When I was in the military (oh, so many years ago), the religious aspect was not so pronounced. I used to change religions based on which one was having a "retreat", so I've seen ALL of the "western" religions up close and personal (and snickered under my breath about their collective stupidity, too)

Oh, and Jim - I tell the mormons who very occasionally come to the door to piss up a rope. Might as well be blunt. I actually prefer handing them some JW literature and telling them where the local assembly hall is located. (That way the stuff gets at least SOME use - even if only to irritate mormons)