So, you can be attracted to the same sex, but you can never have sex......got it......

No Eric, you can have sex - only with someone who physically repulses you.

It's a baby step, but at least in the right direction!

What is freedom anyway? What if we took that same approach to organized religion, saying that it's okay for you to believe in God, it's just not OK for you to act on it, speak of it, build temples in honor of it, share it with others...

Organized religion is the true sin.

rkaraluis

WTF is that suppose to mean?

Brooke, the gay people I've known were physically repulsed by the idea of intimacy with the opposite sex, which is the only thing they're allowed under Mormon doctrine. Is that clear?

The closer we all become to not judging one another, allowed to live our lives as ourselves to closer i have hope for the sake of the human race. i could careless about what my gay friends do in their bedrooms, just as much as they could careless about what my wife do in our bedroom. Regardless as to why anyone is gay it has never been about choice.

R - love it!!!

yeah, what Whatever_man said. XP

Do any of these religious organizations take into account the possiblity that homosexuality is simply God's way of controlling exploding population growth?

I believe firmly that what God was really saying is: suck a dick for Jesus; save the world.

Shaydie, social change takes time and wisdom does as well. Blacks had to suffer many years at the belief they were lesser than whites and the Bible was used to excuse the behavior...and no matter how much we grow as a people and see each other as humans and not the titles we place on one another there will still be those who will hate, just for the sake of hating.

The other point people miss is that it is also a SIN to have sex with members of the opposite sex if unmarried. So, a queer fellow, however repulsed by a woman (from replies posted), is still committing a SIN if they are not married.

"Sexuality is not a choice."

But statutory rape of minors is. Just ask Warren Jeffs. Seems the Mormons need to take care of what goes on behind their closed doors, and stop worrying about what might be going on behind the closed doors of others.

swing and a miss....

@ DOCJT: There goes pure ignorance again... Warren Jeffs & organization have absolutely nothing to do with Mormonism. But it shows the general public just how many uneducated folks such as yourself just want to sound of/to be heard/ to get the attention.. Cause it certainly isn't about a reasonalbe argument there....hope you are thoroughly embarressed by showing off your ignorance. Hey, but that's ok. It provides you with a chance to be educated.

Rick's Real,

Considering we continue to populate at frightening speeds, and that we already have an unsustainable number of people on the planet, with even more being added than removed every day, the theory that gays might be a form of population control seems rather unfounded.

I'm not at all knocking your suggestion that we're a natural part of the species, because we totally are, but there're a lot of people who try to say that, if everyone were gay, we'd die out as a species, so being gay should be illegal, missing the whole fact that not everyone is gay, and even the number of gays who currently exist aren't enough to even slow down population growth, let alone reverse it. I don't want to give them any more fuel to feed their fire of ignorance by suggesting that our existence actually does have a measurable impact on population growth when it really doesn't. ;)

Straights, unfortunately, are actually the ones leading to the inevitable extinction of mankind with their out-of-control breeding. Perhaps heterosexuality should be, if not outright banned, at least heavily regulated.

I would be in favor of gay unions with the same legal attachment currently afforded to others that get married. There is no doubt in my mind that their commitment to a marriage is the same. So I would expect the same failures and successes. If those couples belong to a church that recognizes same sex marriage then they can also get married in a church.

I agree that for the most part people don't choose who they are attracted to. However, with younger people I do see a lot of flip flopping from one sex to another with women. I don't see that with males. In the past gay men did marry a woman and then later came out. I think we are seeing less and less of that. So I think gay men are out with that early on now. Not all, but many. Lesbian relationships tend to be much different. There is a lot of experimenting going on there today.

With regards to sin, I can't comment on that having no voice there since I didn't write the rules. If two men are attracted to each other we certainly can't expect them to remain celibate their entire lives. However, to suggest that two men or two women having sex is how nature intended is just not true. The body parts don't match up. It really is that simple. It doesn't mean there aren't ways to still have sex, but to reproduce when the parts don't match up is impossible. I think that is where many feel uncomfortable and frankly confused.

What is happening and why the social acceptance is gaining is that many families today have a family member that is gay and thus the need to have a greater acceptance. Many family members love that gay family member and they want to understand and want them to be happy just like all the rest of us.

Churches of any sort should stay out of definitions. Leave it to the scientific community, we do a much better job of it.

Agree with LJRhodes. They saw the financial light. They're trying to expand their money vacuum a little wider (and half-heartedly), only no one is being fooled. Churches aren't supposed to serve God anyway, they're supposed to serve MAN.

Saw the above post about population and wanted to disagree about birth rates which in the western world are declining. A healthy population needs to at the very least replace itself which we currently are not doing in the US nor in Europe. It is true that other countries are producing more than replacement.

The bad news about not replacing ourselves is that the next generation is not large enough to support the old.

Looking back on my ancestors that came here from Ireland, the majority had 8-10 children with many living to be very old people. I had 1 child. I bought into the zero population growth which now I can see has come flaws. Look at the dramatic difference just in one family.

Rick's real - I've been saying this for years. I don't know if it has anything to do with god. But I do believe nature has decided that the human population has just about maxed out on this planet in terms of available resources. Without something to regulate population growth, we will consume this planet and move on to the next like locusts or die.

The history of evolution would simply have the stronger wipe out the weak to make room. But maybe evolution has gotten smarter. If the gay population increases they won't be adding to the population, maybe we won't have to kill each otherover resources after all (ie. Iraq war). It's either that, or we simply continue to sterilize ourselves by poisoning our food and resources. But that's for a different discussion.

@ DOCJT: There goes pure ignorance again... Warren Jeffs & organization have absolutely nothing to do with Mormonism. But it shows the general public just how many uneducated folks such as yourself just want to sound of/to be heard/ to get the attention.. Cause it certainly isn't about a reasonalbe argument there....hope you are thoroughly embarressed by showing off your ignorance. Hey, but that's ok. It provides you with a chance to be educated.

So, tell me ing, where did the Jeff's cult branch from? They are all Latter Day Saints. "Mormons" is just a way of attempting to disquise that fact.

And buy a dictionary. You should be thoroughly embarrassed by your spelling.

Here's some education for you: This stance by the Mormons doesn't change the fact that they are still practicing homophobia and bigotry. Just a wordy attempt, that when dissected, doesn't change a day-um thing.

Walter, grow up. Reported for violating NV policy (slurring).

don't like my quotes!!!!

theboys,

One needs to be concerned with global population, rather than local, in order to appreciate the scope (and dangers) of rampant human breeding and overpopulation.

A person's right and even left hands might be perfectly healthy, but the rest of his body could be riddled with cancer, which will still kill him despite said healthy hands.

Two areas out of the whole cannot illustrate the condition of the whole, and the whole is in dire straits, indeed.

@ ing:

You need to read up on Joseph Smith before you try to argue that Warren Jeffs has nothing to do with Mormonism.

I am a christian and I have a gay daughter whom I love very much and want nothing more than her to be happy. In my honest opinion she was born gay, she didn't just decide one day that men weren't her thing. She has been with her partner now for 6 years, that being better than most heterosexual relationships. Now if the Christians would follow what is taught, do not judge and treat others the way you want to be treated this would be a much better place for all. Merry Christmas All!

Mormon church: 'Sexuality is not a choice'

Thank god being a Mormon is. :)

Doesn't the bible say something about looking at someone with lust is the same as acting... these closet LDS types are trying to have their cake and eat it too.

John Smith, that irascable inventor of buried gold tablets in upstate New York, would be rolling over in his grave. Brigham, who ran with a good thing after John was done in, obviously preferred multiple wives over gender neutality.

It's a sin huh? So is adultery. Why not discriminate against them too? There's a heck of a lot more adulterers out there.

Just give the gays all the rights they want and then the crying will hopefully stop.The only thing that makes me mad is when someone plays the sympathy card like...You are making me pull guard duty because i am gay...BALONEY, it was your turn,check the DA form 6.Personally, i don't give two hoots in hell what your religious or sexual orientation is.When you go to work,leave it at home and do your job and keep your personal beliefs to yourself.

And if you look at the history of mormon men, you find murderers (John Lee), polygamists with child brides (B. Young), thieves/con men (J. Smith).

Does this mean we can still eat fish on Friday's?

a real lol captain!

this IS a step forward by the mormons, however it also demonstrates the bizarre and convoluted positions that dogma can still force a true believer to hold.

Hmmm... Jesus H. Christ, Mary, Joseph and Moses!! The LDS stated something I never thought I would hear. However, after thinking about it, I realized something.

This could be a clever attempt to gain more membership!! That would increase the tithing, or income to the LDS!!

wolfhound27 I agree with you. Please leave your religion, sexual orientation and POLITICS at home. Just work and do your job in an excellent manner. Do the best you can within your resources to do so, and be part of the team working for a good goal and outcome.

Now, if the LDS really wanted to do something that would be beneficial, they should get busy trying to abate pedophilia within the membership. That would mostly consist of grandfathers, fathers, uncles, brothers and cousins, doing inappropriate sexual things with underage children.

The LDS leadership needs to wake up and learn that denial is not a river in Egypt. Sex abuse can be found in any organization, even the LDS.

It means we can still eat fish AT Fridays.

well if the link from MSN does not describe prejudice I dont know what does..

Mormons: Gay 'not a choice'

you are Mormon in your past time, you are human first, a parent second, and an American third....only way down (WAY) are you Mormon...christian ect. STop introducing yourself with a color or a religion...

Hi im white and mormon...may name, why you need my name, I just told you EVERYTHING about me.

hey ing-2362851, warren jeffs sure has a lot more to do with mormonism than he does with the church of the flying spaghetti monster.

Wow, it's a good thing they saved this headline until after the election. It just might have tipped the scales just enough to put Romney over the top.

Forward>>>

The "church's" horror over homosexual behavior stems from the biblical story of the three angels (who appeared as men) visiting Lot's house in Sodom and Gomorrah.

The angels who are in the form of man appear first to Abraham. The three men reveal to Abraham that they are sent to destroy the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Because Abraham's nephew, Lot resides in these cities, Abraham begins to negotiate with the three men and finally they all agree that if there are 10 righteous men living there, the cities will be spared.

The three men proceed to Sodom and Gomorrah and meet Lot by the city well. Lot invites them home with him because it is not safe in the city after dark. Once inside Lot's home with the doors locked, the men of the city bang on the doors calling for the men to be sent out to them. Lot offers them his daughter for their pleasure but they refuse saying they want the men. In response to this, the three men tell Lot to get his family and leave and not look back. Lot's family does leave, but the wife looks back and turns to a pillar of salt. Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed . . . leaving absolutely NO trace to this day. Lot and his daughters proceed to sleep in a cave and the daughters get their father drunk with the intent of having sex with him so they can get pregnant.

There are several things wrong with this "story". The most obvious is that Lot was an extremely wealthy beduin like Abraham and DID NOT live in the city. He was a tent dweller just like Abraham. Second, in every instance of angelic appearance recorded in the bible, angels appear as them self not other forms. Third, if these circumstances bare any truth, Lot would have traveled to his Uncle Abraham for protection, not settled in a cave. Fourth, if the daughters were actually of child bearing age, they would have already been married and not living at home. Fifth, if God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah to rid the earth of homosexuality, why does it still exist in the world today?

Even if Sodom and Gormarrah existed and even if they were destroyed, that does not prove that Lot lived there. Nor does it prove that the behavior identifed as sinful was actually homosexual. It could have been sadist torture that included sodomizing. There are any number of explanations . . . this could be an environment in which all "outsiders" were robbed and tortured or beaten into the slavery trade. That could have been the commerce of the city . . . slave trade.

The Apostle Paul writes that it is wrong and ought not be. The Romans practiced homosexuality in the training of young boys to be warriors. I think that the Apostle Paul was more conscience of this as being wrong that the sincere affection and love that same sex people can and do feel for one another. The Apostle Paul made it clear that there was a difference between those who "practiced" and those who were actually eunuch . . . meaning that they were born homosexual.

The "church" has wrarpped itself around every sin so as to insure that it completely saves its members and isn't found being lax standing guard against the wiles of the Devil. It is this attitude that actually allows the Devil free reign within the hearts and minds of those who are too rigid and legalistic and can not feel compassion . . . the true Compassion of Christ love toward all men in how their genes have determined who they are. The "sin" we are born "in" or "with" is not anyone's fault. The definition of "sin" is actually not meeting the mark. The Creator missed the perfection mark when He created us. I do believe that it is true that the Devil can take advantage of us because of our imperfections, but not because we are sinful, but only because we are not perfectly made. Christ encouraged and did not discouraged men and women to seek the path of understanding and looking past the individual differences and be all inclusive. The church has forgotten its true mission and subbcombed to the "commerce" of church building.

The Mormon Chruch is positioning itself for the next run at the White House. There is no compassion or enlightenment in their new position . . just politics.

It shouldn't take a genius to figure out that the comments of intolerance and unacceptance are being lobbed by those who are intolerant and unaccepting themselves; however, in the interest of true tolerance, I will attempt to bring knowledge and wisdom to your hateful existences.

First and foremost, it is obvious that 99% of the posters here have never attended an LDS session, been to an LDS temple and sat down with and talked to LDS missionaries (perhaps with members, who are encouraged to act as missionaries, but cannot give the same talks and lessons as missionaries). Second, just to get this out of the way, unless you are going to, in the same breath, hold accountable all pedophiles who hold any position of power, not just religious, but political, educational and professional, you are just showing the colors of intolerance toward a single group. Having said all that, I do not see anywhere on this report or in the website that certain other measures were taken to "accept" gay and lesbian members in the church, which I will address later. I can only assume that any gays or lesbians who are members have in fact suppressed their personal desires which is a very "divine" thing to do by the teachings of the LDS church. I don't, however, see any mention of baptism, missionary service, priesthood endowment or temple marriage and sealing, all of which are requirements, by LDS teaching, to attain the highest level of heaven and somehow, I don't think an openly gay or lesbian person could bring themselves to do all those things, regardless of the reward.

I can only say that the LDS church does, and has always, preached tolerance to those who have different lifestyles, including homosexuality. LDS members are to live in the world, but not of the world. The teachings are that such acts are an abomination, but it is not our place to judge those people. That right is given solely to God, who, by all religious accounts and not just LDS, is perfect; however, even members of the LDS church are mortal and thus imperfect. So yes, there will be sins, some of them recognized by society, some not.

So, if you wish to continue in your ignorant and hateful ways, I will not stop you. At least now, when you continue in those ways, you will realize that you are being exactly that which you claim to despise.

Two things to clarify here:

1) The LDS church is not the FLDS church and has absolutely no association with it. Warren Jeffs, his crazy actions, prison time, and end of the world "prophesy" are in no way associated with the LDS church, because he is not a leader of that church.

2) It does not matter what the LDS church says its stance is. If you hate religion, like most of you do, then you will hate the LDS church no matter what they say.

Pre-puberty, I had always assumed that when I grew up, I would get married and have children. When I first realized as a boy growing up in the 70's that I was gay, I was terrified. I did NOT want to be gay. I prayed for God or whatever to please change me and make me straight. For those of you who are younger, you have NO IDEA what it was like back in the 70's for a gay teenager; even one in the closet.

I never remember "making a choice" to be terrified, teased, bullied, ostracized, etc. What rational person would?We gay people no more "choose" our sexuality than straight people "choose" theirs. This is what gay people have been telling you for decades, and still some of you still refuse to believe it.

The reason seems clear to me. Those with religious reasons to think that being gay is a choice (is 90% too low?) would then have to also accept that God made gay people the way they are. But since "the Bible says being gay is a sin" that would mean the Bible is in error. And that they cannot accept. The whole foundation of discrimination against gay people is that being gay is a "choice" and that "choice" makes them "immoral."

Big @#$@# deal....SO DON'T BE A MORMON...IT'S YOUR CHOICE....good grief, why don't we wail on Muslims and the way they deal with woman's rights? Is this a free country or what>?

Serious question here: If sexuality is not a choice, is pedophilia a crime, a disease, or just a natural sexual orientation?

"Intolerance and hate creates a tiny and miserable existence for the person who nurtures it." I believe the LDS church does a lot of good as do many religions, but they missed the boat on this one. I can't help but think it is motivated by greed.

ing-2362851

@ DOCJT: There goes pure ignorance again... Warren Jeffs & organization have absolutely nothing to do with Mormonism. But it shows the general public just how many uneducated folks such as yourself just want to sound of/to be heard/ to get the attention.. Cause it certainly isn't about a reasonalbe argument there....hope you are thoroughly embarressed by showing off your ignorance. Hey, but that's ok. It provides you with a chance to be educated.

Polygamy, especially as being essential to become another god, is still an official doctrine of mormonism. It was just put "on hold" by whatever "prophet" when the USA refused to admit Utah as a state unless the mormons stopped the practice. Should polygamy become legal, mormonism would jump right back into it. But, for now, according to mormonism's "prophets," the laws of the USA outweigh the laws of its god.

I'm not gay, nor rethinking that position, but what bends my mind are the Jesus freaks who are too stupid to see that Religion is like a cult. They get you early (as in childhood) and program you too think that if you don't believe in the magic man in the sky, that bad things will happen to you. When is the government going to protect us from those cultists like Baptists, Catholics and the other stupids that have wars over who's god is most peaceful.

Gays, women, Mexicans, what part of Equality for All, are you just not understanding?

Jerry, with all due respect. You don't understand what you are talking about. We don't beleive that you have to be polygamous in order to "become another god." Do we believe that at various times polygamy has been a part of God's plan and part of the gospel that was taught to ancient and modern prophets? Yes. It's in the Bible. If your Chrisitan read the Old Testement. Polygamy was practiced at various times (e.g., King David, King Solomon, etc.). Do we believe that polygamy is practiced at all times? No. If the the United States suddenly legalized the practice of polygamy, would Mormons suddenly begin practicing again? Maybe, but I doubt it. I am married to one woman that I love deeply. The practice of polygamy would be difficult at best, and I guess the same would be true for most married men in the Church. Despite what everyone else thinks, Mormon men are not sex crazed maniacs, and we don't sit around wishing we could practice polygamy again. Believe it or not, the President of the Church doesn't sit around thinking about it either. Then are plenty of other things to worry about.

In regards to the gay and lesbian community, the Church has always taught that we as members of our church should love them. But loving someone doesn't mean that you have to support or justify acts that you believe to be wrong. Do I as a member of the Mormon Church judge members of the gay and lesbian community? Absolutely not. I have far too many issues of my own to act like I have a right to judge them as people. The gospel of Jesus Christ teaches love and tolerance for others. It does not, however, teach that I have to accept or justfy another's morals if I don't believe in them. There are plenty of you out there that I'm sure adimatley disagree with me. That is your right. I respect your right to have those beliefs. I will continue to try and promote what I believe to moral just as I'm sure you will try to promote your moral values. Don't call me or other members of our church bigots simply because we disagree. If there is another group out there that understands what it is like to persecuted against it is members of the Mormon church.

Rick's Real

Do any of these religious organizations take into account the possiblity that homosexuality is simply God's way of controlling exploding population growth?

You may have a point there. When Apollo 11 was launched (in 1969) the world population was around 3 Billion, now it is around 7 Billion. We need to slow down.

Jesus, Mary and Joseph in a handbag! First of all, why do people who profess to be Christians always fall back to the old testament (basically Jewish law) when they find something in society they want to fear (hate simply being a magnified form of fear). If you are a Christian, live by the teachings of the New Testament and Jesus Christ. God stopped being angry and vengeful after he had a kid. The rules changed. Jesus taught love, generosity, peace and tolerance ... he was a Democratic Socialist.

If Jesus Christ were to come here today, who would He be more likely to condemn; people who just want to be allowed to love another person or those who want to go to war in His name and kill, kill kill to satisfy their greed and need for power?!?

Whenever I see people ranting about the horrors of homosexuality I have to wonder if it isn't really self hatred because they have had these 'feelings' and are scared to death by them. Go ahead. Come on out of your closet and walk in the sunshine! Don't be afraid of who you really are! We'll accept you just the way you are ... and Jesus will still love you, even if the LDS church will not.

The LDS church can try to do all the damage control it wants but the truth of the matter is that a WHOLE BUNCH of people now have painted them with a brush full of Mitt.

@ Andy-4176161, you left out:

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And they (the angels) smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

I think the Angels used a hand-held micro-blast laser to blind the men. Probably brought it from the space ship that was orbiting in the Heavens waiting for them.

Long live the separation between Church and State. Any Church in a Free society has no place enacting its Moral compass on others. Next thing you know. We would all have to be in some church praying to the same god 10 times a day. Or some other stupid thing.

God is a personal thing.

) It does not matter what the LDS church says its stance is. If you hate religion, like most of you do, then you will hate the LDS church no matter what they say.

Naw, I'm just not real fond of homophobes, bigots, liars, pedophiles, crooks, theives, mysogynists, intolerance, and hate. I don't care whether it is practiced under the umbrella of "religion" or secularly. In this case, it just happens to be under the umbrella of Latter Day Saints, whether they call themselves "Mormons", 'LDS', or 'FLDS'.

I call "baloney" on the Mormon Church finally admitting that being gay is not a choice. This is what us gay men and women have been trying to tell these churches for decades! At minimum any church should admit that being gay is not a choice. Having said that, let's put their "choice" to announce this into perspective.

Firstly, surveys are showing that more that half of Americans support same sex marriage. The article states that Mormon membership is growing. They are riding the growth curve and that, my friends, means more Mormons ..... and more tithing 10%'ers. They have demonstrated they love to use church money to buy politics (see 40 million spent in pro=Prop 8 campaign by the Mormon Church). Imagine what they could buy with more paying members.

Secondly and this applies to all anti-gay churches, they believe in Intelligent Design and therefore cannot also believe that God would create gay people and condemn them at the same time. It creates a rift among the believers to accept that gay people were made that way by the Almighty.

Lastly, no church has a right to condemn gay men and women for having sex by way of saying that only men marrying women are "allowed" to have sex. They are men, not God, and are forbid to judge others.

As for myself I will continue to treat any Mormon I meet the way I have always treated them- with kindness and respect until they start judging me..... then they lose my respect.

D.Appel- Amen to that!

As a Christian and Conservative Republican, I believe in individual freedom as did our founding fathers. We will all be judged some day, and the choices people make here on earth will be judged. It's not for me (as a sinful mortal) to legislate to others the lifestyle they choose to take, (that's not freedom). I have NO intention of telling others that which they can or cannot do with their lives. I hold this same belief when it comes to abortion, we all as Gods creation must make choices which I may not personally agree with, but it's not for me to decide and I pray for those who choose a path different from Gods wishes!

Joey, churches don't enact their morals on others. However, members of various churches may promote morals supported by the church. Saying individuals don't have a right to promote their morals is ludicrous. We live in a society built on the social contract. Religous individuals have as much right to promote their morals as any nonreligious individual.

Kurt:

To quote you, "the Church has always taught that we as members of our church should love them"

Can the church love them without accepting their money?

2) It does not matter what the LDS church says its stance is. If you hate religion, like most of you do, then you will hate the LDS church no matter what they say.

I agree with you there but that's only one minor reason I hate the LDS.

The other being they won't stop bothering me after almost 30 years because in the 80s I married a Mormon. I have had to go legal to finally stop them from harassing me and my current family. That's a pretty good reason in my book for not being Moron. :)

There are many more like me who have had to resort to legal threat to get them to stop the harassment. In that regard they are much like Scientologists.

DOC-Yes call us bigots simply because we don't agree with you. That's very grown up.

Jakrabt-The LDS Church didn't donate any money to sponsor proposition 8. The members of the Church donated personal money. That included high ranking officials within the church. The church's money was not used.

The Church opposes legislation that seeks to control conscience or suppress the freedom of the soul and has supported legislation that expands the freedom to choose same-sex relationships. It has also sought to preserve the legal definition of marriage as being between a man and a woman. These two things do not conflict.

There is a difference between supporting and protecting individual's freedom to choose how they want to form their families, and accepting their definitions as the legal definition that applies to everyone. Preserving the definition of marriage does not impose morality nor does it take away rights. The Church recognizes the unique benefit that a union between a man and a woman has to society and child raising and has sought to keep that recognition in laws. Individuals are still free to choose to form their families differently and the Church has supported laws that would help them make that choice.

In California, same-sex couples have many of the same rights that the state gives to married couples, including having their relationship legally recognized and subsidized by tax payer money. The church is on record as not opposing any of these rights.

Augmort,

I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. Can you clarify?

I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. Can you clarify?

I imagine he's referring to tything which matters little because even if they did what difference would it make, they still would be refused Temple access. :)

Any "worthy" individual is given the opportunity to enter the Church's temples. Their sexuality has nothing to do with it. I have friends in the Church who are openly "gay" (i.e., they are not attracted to women) who go to the temple. They simply have made the choice to not act on their sexual desires. The church applies the same standard to all individuals. If I had the desire to sleep with 100 women, and I acted on that, I would not be allowed into the temple either. Again, I don't see what the payment of tithing would have to do with extending love to others. Love is not contingent on the payment of tithes. Never has been and never will.

Kurt, I understand where you are coming from denying the Mormon church did not use church money to donate to the Prop 8 campaign. They HAVE to take that position because to use church money would have been a direct violation of their tax exempt status.

The article says it best,

There was nothing plausibly deniable about the Church’s relationship to the Proposition 8 campaign when, in Sunday meetings on June 29, 2008, a letter from Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints President Thomas Monson was read over the pulpit of every Mormon congregation in California urging Church members to “do all you can” to support the ballot measure.

http://morgantown.backpage.com/LegalServices/mormons-proposition-8-and-same-sex-marriage/1338017

One may argue the verbal semantics of same sex attraction all one likes, same-sex behavior is definitely a choice, whether you want to admit it or not. What's next, the search for a snicker bar or energy drink gene? For someone to argue otherwise is disingenuous and cowardly. I fail to see why the Mormon church is capitulating. Scientifically speaking, the matter is far from decided. The APA clearly states that no one knows for sure what the causes of sexuality are, it is believed to be.... so, for this church to make such an assentation is begging the question on their part. It's a shame so many feel sympathy towards an unsubstantiated ideology will get them somewhere. Homosexuality is not based in biology; there's no gay gene. It has no more ties to science than gender dysphonia. You can't change your sex or the sex you were intended for.

Where's Sarah? Thought she would be on here by now saying all sorts of hateful and illogical things about this.

hey bruce-308647, there is no way for a child to give consent for sexual activity. at least not legal consent. this is the crux of why pedophilia will remain a crime. pedophilia is abuse, pure and simple. that's not to say heterosexual or homosexual couples of consenting age cannot abuse their partners...it happens frequently and sometimes is actually prosecuted.

sex between consenting adults harms no one but one must consent as well as be of consenting age.

As far as gays/lesbians go, I think the subject is just a diversion to keep from talking about hetero adultery and other taboo subjects related to heteros (I am straight). Half of straight people live in an earthly hell at least once in our lives until we divorce. Why should gay people miss out on all that fun?

I doubt they can screw up the sanctity of marriage any worse than the rest of us. They might not cheat as much as the reat of us. Birth control/abortion is certainly less of an issue. They actually have to PLAN on having or adopting kids.

What if gay and lesbian couples end up being more stable than "normal" families? I think straight people are more worried about what gay marriages will say about the rest of us by comparison.

It sounds to me like the Mormon Church has simply adopted the Roman Catholic Churche's position on homosexuality. The attraction itself is not a sin, but actually "doing the nasty" will get you an eternal sentence in hell. It's no real improvement at all as far as I can see since all it amounts to is taking a vow of perpetual chastity without actually entering a monastery or convent. They are still not accepting you for who you really are since sexuality is an important part of most people's lives, including gays. If sex outside marriage is a sin, then they will have to approve of gay marriage in order for it no longer to be a sin.

ing-2362851

@ DOCJT: There goes pure ignorance again... Warren Jeffs & organization have absolutely nothing to do with Mormonism.

You tell that to Rev Jeffs. He'll kick you in the nuts and say his followers are the only true Mormons.

I thought it was a suicide bomber but it was a conservative head exploding.

Makes me want to move to Colorado City.

It's shouldn't you can't have five husbands. Pologamy is only 1 man and multiple women. If it worked the way you want all five men could each marry five men who could each marry five men etc etc. Flip flopping must be a Mormon thing. First plural marriage, then Black people, Now homosexuality.

The destruction of the family is rotting the foundation of United States. But what ever. If all you gays want to have all the same rights as married people I say let them have what they desire. Welcome to the wonderful world of family court. I don't know how you gays will work this out but lets say you role play. One is the man and one is the girl. This is how the game is played.

1st False allegations of Domestic violence.

2nd Restraining order ( Guilty until proven innocent)

3rd Immediate Spousal and child support orders.

4th Say good buy to your rights to 50/50 custody. With D.V. you will be lucky to get 15% custody.

5th Divorce advantage spouse now since you only have every other weekends you have to pay higher child support.

My advice DON'T get married. And don't get kids because you might find that you truly love your kids and you will find yourself wishing that the court just beheaded you. The courts will let her use them against you and I wouldn't wish that pain on anyone.

Oh yea lets not forget the best part. LAWYERS Now the judge will take everything you own and slice it up in four parts. HER LAWYER 25% YOUR LAWYER 25% Your wife's part 25% and your part after spousal support and child support, well lets just say FU

daniel cooper,

"The destruction of the family is rotting the foundation of United States."

I may be wrong, but I thought the foundation of the United States was the Constitution; not the family. In fact, I don't think the Constitution says much of anything about the family. Correct me if I am wrong. Otherwise, I can sympathize with your laments about marriage.

Midwesterner-

I have NO intention of telling others that which they can or cannot do with their lives. I hold this same belief when it comes to abortion, we all as Gods creation must make choices which I may not personally agree with, but it's not for me to decide and I pray for those who choose a path different from Gods wishes!

I was with you on the whole live and let live and let God judge thing until you decided that your beliefs were aligned with God's, as if you knew.

This article is a waste of space. The church hasn't changed their position at all. As long as they (the church) still believe it is a sin for gays to love and make love with someone from the same sex they haven't "evolved' at all.

Daniel Cooper-

One is the man and one is the girl.

That explains all your marital trouble right there. I'd have divorced you too.

What does your bad marriage have to do with two men or two women who love each other?

Wasn't this religion started by a science fiction author? Jules Vern or someone who had a being drop from the sky and direct him to a bunch of golden tablets buried on a hill in New York somewhere? Then, even though they were written in a language unknown on this planet, he deciphered them using a magic stone in a hat. Then he buried those golden tablets once again where no one could ever find them before presenting his new religion to the world?

I think the thing that really shocks me is that Tom Cruise isn't a member of this church!

If you are Mormon and gay, then you DO still have a problem.

SPOILER ALERT: The problem is NOT that you are gay...

If sexuality is not a choice, is pedophilia a crime, a disease, or just a natural sexual orientation?

First rule of sexuality. Both parties MUST COSENT. Second rule of sexuality is all parties must be of age and maturity to consent. Third rule of sexuality if not it's RAPE.

I do not hate gay people at all.. I wish people would stop saying christians hate gays. I have worked with gays and have been nice to them. I do however believe that being gay is perversion, just like pedophiles, and people that get-off-on rapes. I believe that there is a way out.. I mean if a man tells you he loves 10 yr old little girls JUST BECAUSE he LOVES THEM and is SEXUALLY attracted to them your telling me its okay to act on? i think not.. i know that being gay is a little diffrent because its two consenting adults, but i believe that man and woman were created for each other, thats why they have parts that actually fit and can pro create..Life is about growing up and getting married and starting a family. Theres a reason why two men cannot have children and two women cannot. Whether its God, mother nature or who ever you believe in intended it to be woman and man. If you want to be gay then be gay behind closed doors, but i do not support marriage because its unconstitutional. I also believe that there should be support groups who do not want to keep these thoughts and feelings and want to make a change and live life the way God and nature intended them too.

Sexuality has nothing to do with age. Now you are talking about laws. As described by homosexuals over and over this is a desire that they developed early in life therefor it was not a choice. Couldn't a pedophile make the same statement, this is the reason there are habitual pedophiles. Homosexuality really is very similiar to pedophilia it is a deviant sexual desire. The homosexual's want people to believe this is natural. I call it deviant.

Man people are straight up ignorant. Polygamy is still Mormon doctrine? Tell me how if you could please. I am Mormon and I can tell you that it is not just the same that I can tell you Jeffs has absolutely nothing to do with the Mormon church. You want to claim the church practices Bigotry and Homophobia ask yourself this there are only 5 million Mormons in the US so did all suddenly move to California to pass proposition 8? The church practices what it preaches unlike a lot of churches out there today. The church also doesn't preach politics from the pulpit like so many people seem to be determined to believe. Look up the articles of faith one of them regards the belief that we are subject to the laws of man. May want to understand that before you claim Jeffs is Mormon.

right on mark :)

Kurt-1087237

Jerry, with all due respect. You don't understand what you are talking about. We don't beleive that you have to be polygamous in order to "become another god." Do we believe that at various times polygamy has been a part of God's plan and part of the gospel that was taught to ancient and modern prophets? Yes. It's in the Bible. If your Chrisitan read the Old Testement. Polygamy was practiced at various times (e.g., King David, King Solomon, etc.). Do we believe that polygamy is practiced at all times? No. If the the United States suddenly legalized the practice of polygamy, would Mormons suddenly begin practicing again? Maybe, but I doubt it. I am married to one woman that I love deeply. The practice of polygamy would be difficult at best, and I guess the same would be true for most married men in the Church. Despite what everyone else thinks, Mormon men are not sex crazed maniacs, and we don't sit around wishing we could practice polygamy again. Believe it or not, the President of the Church doesn't sit around thinking about it either. Then are plenty of other things to worry about.

You really need to study what your religion believes. Mormonism still holds polygamy as a doctrine "necessary for salvation." In order for the mormon state of Utah to be allowed into the Union, it had to give up the practice, not the doctrine. Mormonism's god did not decide to just end polygamy; the mormon leaders decided not to allow it so they could be accepted into the Union of the USA. In other words, they sold out the mormon god. The doctrine still holds. Research it. The president/prophet/seer of mormonism doesn't, of course, sit around thinking about it because, since polygamy is illegal, there's nothing he can do about it. If it should become legal, just watch what he thinks, says and does. It's no different when, because of social pressures, the mormon president/prophet/seer back in the '70's, received a "revelation" from the mormon god that blacks could become full, practicing, priested, templist members of mormonism, even though that same god had mandated since the invention of mormonism that blacks never could attain to that, being "the cursed, marked children of Cain." The mormon god, unlike other gods, is not "the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow." Face it - mormonism believes, teaches, says and practices whatever pressures are put upon it, not by its god, but by human beings outside of it. It summarizes perfectly the saying: "man is not made in the image and likeness of a god; gods are made in the image and likeness of men." That goes for yours as well. I won't even get into mormonism's polytheism, Kolob, et. al., all of it made up by Joseph Smith.

Karen Konevia Facebook

I do not hate gay people at all..

Yes, you do.

I wish people would stop saying christians hate gays.

Christians hate gays.

I have worked with gays and have been nice to them.

How nice of you. I've also worked with christians (you know, those pushy have-you-been-saved? kind) and have been nice to them. I didn't even tell them that they were stupid, superstitious idiots who need mental health treatment.

I do however believe that being gay is perversion, just like pedophiles, and people that get-off-on rapes.

And I do, however, believe that being christian is a psychotic problem, just like serial killers and people that get off on murders.

Redhead:

That explains all your marital trouble right there. I'd have divorced you too.

That's okay, I doubt he would have married you to begin with, I know I wouldn't have. Since you seem to have no concept of the value of keeping a marriage and seem to think that a divorce is a 'teach him a lesson' thing.

I'd say it is your values that are highly questionable.

Not surprising that conservative Mormons will rationalize this strange line of thinking. To them, if you're single, masturbation is a sin because you acted upon yourself what you were imaging and craving for, of which satisfying this human drive is personal sexual "relief," and is thus, "wrong" because you gave into these feelings and inappropriate mental images.

"Lust," has these connotations of "temptation." And so they -- like most religions of the world -- consider this sexual drive, sinful, therefore wrong. Thus, in some oppressive nations, they make sex outside of marriage illegal by law, with formal penalties imposed upon all that express it within the privacy of your homes or anywhere else.

To enforce these anti-lusting laws and have people comply with this morality legislation, some suggest that placing government-controlled videocams into your bedrooms and bathrooms to monitor what you do, -- or for developing nations, volunteer tattlers, overzealous finger-pointers and Morality Police, are justified in the name of God, Family, Country, and Morality.

AMERICAN GIRL accuses NBC of " holding the HEADLINE until after the election "...

which is just another RWNJ knee-jerk reaction .

The article CLEARLY STATES

" the website, mormonsandgays.org, launched Thursday."

AmericanGirl opens her mouth in public & again destroys any shred of credibility she had .

Kurt-1087237

We don't beleive that you have to be polygamous in order to "become another god." Do we believe that at various times polygamy has been a part of God's plan and part of the gospel that was taught to ancient and modern prophets? Yes. It's in the Bible.

Glad to know you don't believe that you have to be polygamous in order to "become another God". Personally I don't believe polygamy has ever been a part of God's plan, it is rather men's plan.

If your Chrisitan read the Old Testement. Polygamy was practiced at various times (e.g., King David, King Solomon, etc.).

Everyone who has read the Bible knows that. I do not deny that it happened, but it was practiced especially in certain situations, like in time of war, when many men would get killed and therefore there was more widows then men. Also the rights and feelings of women were ignored for the most part in those times (at least in comparison of those of men).

Do we believe that polygamy is practiced at all times? No. If the the United States suddenly legalized the practice of polygamy, would Mormons suddenly begin practicing again? Maybe, but I doubt it. I am married to one woman that I love deeply. The practice of polygamy would be difficult at best.

For me, as a woman, the word would not be "difficult", the word would be "unacceptable". My husband is mine, sorry. Even cheating is not as bad as marrying another woman, marrying another woman is like adding the insult to the injury. Even in some Muslim countries where polygamy is seen often it is still not easy for the women. Just think of the way you would feel if your wife cheated on you, or married another man while married to you, well most women (who have been raised with the knowledge that they are not less then men) feel exactly the same way. And the ones who don't have usually been brainwashed into thinking polygamy was normal and that they had to submit to it.

Note that Jewish males were also allowed to practice polygamy and abandoned this practice by themselves, out of consideration for women, not merely because of the laws in the United States.

I have nothing against Mormons in general, and as far as I know most are not polygamists (I know one personally), but I absolutely despise the idea of polygamy.

Jerry, thank you for your response. I'm afraid you are just wrong on polygamy being necessary for salvation. I have studied the history of my church much detail. That is not to say I can tell you every single statement contained in the history of the Church, but I don't believe in simply adhering to the principles of the Church because someone else told me too or because it is the way I was raised. I believe it is important to study things out for myself. That has included studying the history of my church and its doctrines as well the history of Christianity in general. Beyond that I have been attending church for many years. I don't learn about Mormonism simply from books or what anti-Mormon authors have to say about my religion. I live it on a daily basis. You will not here the leaders of the church or other members of the church talking about the fact that if we don't practice polygamy we won't receive salvation.

Beyond polygamy being necessary for salvation, we will just have to agree to disagree. You have your subjective understanding of why African Americans didn't receive the priesthood until 1970 and why polygamy was stopped. I have a different point of view based on my experience in the church. I could try and explain those views to you, but I already know that you won't consider them and won't accept them anyways, so I won't spend the time to do it.

As far as the church's views towards gays and lesbians, they have not changed. The church has professed the principles contained in its new website for many years. That does not mean all members of the church have expressed those same views. Unfortunately, sometimes a culture develops that is not in perfect harmony with the doctrine of the church. Also, groups outside the church misinform the public about the church's true standing on gay and lesbian lifestyles. That is why the church released the website.

I admit on some level I think it is conceded of you to believe you know why Mormons do different things or why the Church acts the way it does. Unless, you practice the religion and live on a daily basis, you really only have a cursory knowledge of its true intentions and beliefs. However, I respect your right to believe however and whatever you may.

Anna,

Thank you for your comment. I do think its interesting that you don't believe polygamy was ever acceptable in God's plan or was a part of God's plan, yet you acknowledge it took place in the Bible. Why would God have allowed the prophets of ancient times to engage in the practice? He told Abraham to take a second mate according to the Bible so that he could have children.

I understand your feelings on polygamy. You are right. I would feel terrible if my wife cheated on me or married another man. But I think that when polygamy was practiced in accordance with God's laws it had the potential of being a blessing to the people. Now, in saying that, I am not saying polygamy would be my first choice. My relationship to my wife is very special to me as well, and I would not want to do anything to harm that relationship. But what was Abraham supposed to say, "No, God. I'm sorry I won't do it." I think anyone who believes in God would say they would do what God told them. That doesn't mean polygamy has ever been easy. I would imagine Abraham had plenty of discussions with Sara. I don't imagine those discussions were enjoyable between a husband and wife that loved each other very much.

Just like with Abraham and other prophets in the Bible, Mormons believe God commanded the early members of the church to practice polygamy as well. Not all men in the church practiced polygamy. In fact it was only a small portion, but some did. I believe they did so in accordance with God's will. Again, if you read our church's history, many men had a very difficult time with being asked to engage in polygamy.

On a side note, I think it interesting that many in the world today practice a form of polygamy by the number of partners they have without ever being married. There is no level of commitment and so many people find this acceptable. At least with polygamy they made a commitment to one another through a marriage covenant.

I know that we disagree on whether God commanded men to engage in polygamy in ancient or modern times, but I think we agree that marriage should be based on love and mutual respect. My wife is such a wonderful blessing in my life. I can't imagine what my life would have been like without her or our children.

Kurt. I'm sorry to say that I don't really believe God said this, I believe he simply wanted children and his wife couldn't have any. I had an aunt who's husband couldn't have children, she could have divorced him and marry another, OR, simply marry another while being married to him, how do you feel about this idea?

There is also an area in the world where it is women who practice polygamy (i.e. they are allowed to marry more then one men - from what I have read there isn't many men in that area, and this allows most of them to have children), how do you feel about that?

As I said just put yourself in place of the woman who would have to tolerate a polygamist husband and you will understand that it is unacceptable. Yes it happened, and it happens in some Muslim countries, and some women are even ok with that as it is the way they have been raised (to think that they are supposed to share their husband), but that doesn't mean its right, that doesn't mean its fair for the women, and that doesn't mean most women in such a marriage are happy having to share their so-called husband. Even in Muslim countries, despite the "brainwashing", many refuse polygamy and divorce their husband when they want to marry another woman. Also many Muslims are actually not polygamists, by choice, and respect for their wife, with whom they have a normal and healthy relationship. Note also that they are allowed to marry other women only as long as they can make all of them happy and if the first wife approves (but unfortunately her opinion is ignored in many cases, contrary to Shariah law).

See there is something about Islam, there is the Qur'an and there is the Hadith, one is believed to be the Word of God, while the other is Muhammad's actions, beliefs, opinions. Unfortunately there is no such difference in the Bible (as far as I know). Some Muslims prefer to live in accordance to both, some mainly to the Qur'an. My point is they make the difference between what they believe is actually the Word of God, and what isn't. I think polygamy would fit in the equivalent of the Hadith.

And finally the sex ratio of the world population is 107 males for 100 females, logically it is females who should practice polygamy (I wouldn't of course).

I meant there isn't many women (where I mentioned women practicing polygamy), there is a lot more men then women in that area, sorry.

I find it laughable to read posts from people insisting to be a good person you absolutely have to love and accept gays and lesbians without question and find all of it perfectly ok. Then out of the other side of their mouths they're stating things like all christians are psychotic, bigots, racists, greedy money grabbers etc.. To all those people talking smack like that I have this to say. Grow up, get over yourself and stop being HUGE hypocrites, bigots, racists and haters yourself. I don't practice any particular religion but I do believe in a higher power. Having some small smigden of faith has gotten me thru more than one life crisis and I have seen others beliefs do the same for them. I don't ever try to throw religion into conversations with strangrs or those of short accquaintance. I don't condem anyone who has beliefs tht are different than mine or than have no use for religious belief at all. I have too busy and full of a life to spend all the time some of you posters having criticizing and hating on people that you don't even know. You don't have to be religious at all to practice some of the things that the bible teaches. Many things are just good common sense and seem to be a good way to live. Like judge not lest ye be judged. Do unto others as you want things to be done unto you. etc. etc. I don't believe in running around sleeping with every available body just because I can. If your not married doesn't mean you have license to screw your socks off 24/7 or that you have to be celibate. What I do believe in is personal responsibilty and accountability for your own actions. With examples, if you have sex use protection to avoid std's and pregnancy. If your safe and protected you also are not likely to bring unwanted children into the world to be rasied by a single parent. Like I said some of these things are just common sense and the right way to behave. I also get sick and tired of people trying to force their opinions on everyone else. Some of you hating on mormoms, christians those that have differing beliefs etc.. are doing just that..HUGE HUGE HYPOCRITES. You need to wake up and smell the stick of your own bigotry and hate!!!!!!!

Why is acting on same-sex attraction a 'sin'? In biblical times, stoning adulterers and polygamous marriages were commonplace. Those and other customs of that time are now illegal. Have we not evolved beyond the ancient biblical concept of 'sin' in human sexual relationships between consenting adults?

We have laws in place to punish criminals, but same-sex attraction is not a crime. Why punish LGBTs by consigning them to a life of lonely celibacy with no hope of a spouse or a family? Doesn't that encouraage promiscuity and/or lead to depression and a life in the closet?

Same-sex attraction is not a choice. The real choice is for straight people to accept that. We didn't choose to be straight. We have the far easier path in life. Compassion for the struggles of the LGBT community is the moral high ground, in my opinion.

The Mormons have made a small step forward and hopefully they will continue in the right direction.

Let me see if I have correctly interpreted the logic espoused by the Mormon's statement. If this logic holds true then being a Mormon is not a choice but acting on it is a sin according to Christians. Does this seem to be the equivalent of what the Mormons have just stated about being gay?

This is perhaps the first baby step towards the LDS Church accepting homosexuality. If so, this is a self-serving, hypocritical move by the church to toss aside it's supposedly divinely inspired teachings because it knows the writing is on the wall, and that it needs to take this step if it wants to grow and collect additional wealth and influence in the future.

And yet this move, doing the right thing, to the least extent imaginable, and for the worst of reasons, is to be applauded. When it comes to organized religion, that is the best one can expect from them. Within the context of religion, that is the definition of "progress."

Mormons on lsd ok with carnality acts.

Rw,

Blacks did`nt endure centuries of murder, rape, mutilation, degredation, humiliation, terror, and hatred because they were seen as less then whites. This was done for profit and because they could.

Kurt-1087237

Jerry, thank you for your response. I'm afraid you are just wrong on polygamy being necessary for salvation. I have studied the history of my church much detail. That is not to say I can tell you every single statement contained in the history of the Church, but I don't believe in simply adhering to the principles of the Church because someone else told me too or because it is the way I was raised. I believe it is important to study things out for myself. That has included studying the history of my church and its doctrines as well the history of Christianity in general. Beyond that I have been attending church for many years.

Then you need to continue to study your own religion. It's a fact that mromonism did order the ending of the practice of polygamy in order for Utah to be allowed to enter the Union, but did not abrogate the dogma of polygamy. The religion simply decided to "bide its time" until the practice was again legally permitted. According to the mormon "prophets" who banned its use (right up to this day), it was done for societal acceptance. Now, let me ask you, what god would tell its people not to believe and dogmatic practice central to its theology? Can you imagine orthodox, mainstream (as opposed to mormon) christians being told by the government to stop expressing a belief in the "trinity" (the orthodox, mainstream view of it, not the mormon "godhead" view) and conducting rituals to express it? Mainstream christians would say: "Okay, our god wants us to be accepted, so we can no longer say 'In the name of the father, and the son and the holy spirit,' or make the sign of the cross, and if anyone of you do you'll be excommunicated, but we still believe in it, just don't say it or do anything to show we believe it." Would that happen? No. But in mormonism, that's a constant practice.

I don't learn about Mormonism simply from books or what anti-Mormon authors have to say about my religion. I live it on a daily basis. You will not here the leaders of the church or other members of the church talking about the fact that if we don't practice polygamy we won't receive salvation.

Of course they won't; it wouldn't be good "PR." And if facts about your religion come from anti-mormons, so what? Take them on; counter what they say with facts. If what you believe is true, that should be an easy thing. I once went to a lecture by former mormons who became non-mormons and told point blank what mormonism believes and practices. There were devout mormons in the crowd who expressed disagreement. When asked if anything the ex-mormons said was false and to show it, the mormons didn't do that. They became flustered (because they couldn't) and stormed out. They were devout mormons, who truly believed in what their religion believed and practiced and when confronted on it they were embarassed. A god who was a man who lived in the Kolob star system? People laughed at that. The mormons were offended and incensed. When asked to clarify, they stormed out. That says volumes.

Beyond polygamy being necessary for salvation, we will just have to agree to disagree. You have your subjective understanding of why African Americans didn't receive the priesthood until 1970 and why polygamy was stopped. I have a different point of view based on my experience in the church. I could try and explain those views to you, but I already know that you won't consider them and won't accept them anyways, so I won't spend the time to do it.

So explain why mormonism lifted its racist, prejudiced, bigoted, discriminatory stance against blacks. Why did your god, who said blacks were the descendants of Cain and carried the "mark" and could never attain to full member status suddenly change its mind? Gods cannot change; they are the same yesterday, today and forever. Please explain. Now is your chance. Go for it.

As far as the church's views towards gays and lesbians, they have not changed. The church has professed the principles contained in its new website for many years. That does not mean all members of the church have expressed those same views. Unfortunately, sometimes a culture develops that is not in perfect harmony with the doctrine of the church. Also, groups outside the church misinform the public about the church's true standing on gay and lesbian lifestyles. That is why the church released the website.

We know what your religion believes regarding gays and lesbians. It's just trying to "soften" that view because of society changing and it doesn't want to be left in the dust. Oh, by the way, I know mormon gays and lesbians who actually have sex and same-sex relationships and keep it to themselves but appear to be "worthy" of "temple ceremonies." Yes, there are mormon gays and lesbians who have SEX and live in secretive relationships and possess "temple endownments." Does that mean that those are "baptized" for "in proxy" are not really "baptized in proxy?" Face it - you have mormon gays and lesbians who are living the fullness of their lives and are doing things and still manage to get into your temples while many of your straight mormon members can't achieve that.

I admit on some level I think it is conceded of you to believe you know why Mormons do different things or why the Church acts the way it does. Unless, you practice the religion and live on a daily basis, you really only have a cursory knowledge of its true intentions and beliefs. However, I respect your right to believe however and whatever you may.

But why does your religion conceded its dogma to the world around it? Why does it not allow polygamy when it states it's a dogmatic necessary practice? Why did it allow blacks "full membership" when it stated that blacks are "cursed?" Face it - your religion isn't based upon an unchangeable god; it's based upon humans who say they speak for a god and that god changes when the humans are pressured to make it change. If you can accept that truth, I'd have some respect for you embracing your mormon religion.

JERRY

your response shows your the one filled with hate. I DO NOT AGREE WITH SAME SEX MARRIAGE.. but i have nothing against GAYS! yes i have personal belifs about the life style but i actually have class and morals unlike you.. You must be gay to be so defensive, and while some churchs are crooks, alot of them do alot of good for society so how dare you compare us to murders.. Some one like you needs help. Just because some one doesnt agree with something you dont need to attack them. i said i LIKE gay people and just because you say i dont .. your opinion is nothing because YOU are nobody.. you get off on being a bully.. you are someone people need to watch out for before we see you all over the news doing some crazy JAMES HOLMES STUNT

Karen Konevia Facebook

JERRY

your response shows your the one filled with hate.

No it doesn't. I pointed out facts about mormonism. Those who don't like facts, like you, instantly scream "hate!"

I DO NOT AGREE WITH SAME SEX MARRIAGE.. but i have nothing against GAYS!

If you DO NOT AGREE WITH SAME SEX MARRIAGE (i.e., marriage equality), then you have everything against gays, or GAYS as you like to say.

yes i have personal belifs about the life style

What "lifestyle (or "life style," as you call it)?" Please tell us what a "gay lifestyle" (I'm supposing that's what you are referring to) is?

but i actually have class and morals unlike you..

You do? It's not showing here.

You must be gay to be so defensive,

You must be mormon in order to be so defensive.

and while some churchs are crooks, alot of them do alot of good for society

I never said otherwise.

so how dare you compare us to murders..

It was one of your kind who compared gays to murderers. I was just showing him how imbecilic he is. But then again, more murders have been committed in the name of religion than anything else, so, yes, I do compare you to murderers (not "murders.." as you stated).

Some one like you needs help.

I don't believe that this world is ruled by a god who was a man in a star system named Kolob, where the "lords" there rewarded him by making him the god of this world (or whatever you believe). Someone who believes that obviously needs help.

Just because some one doesnt agree with something you dont need to attack them.

People who think I should be denied human, civil and Constitutional rights, including equality, are people deserving of attack. If someone doesn't agree with that, fine, so long as they keep it to themselves. But when they state that the law of a secular nation should reflect their beliefs, especially if those beliefs are based upon superstition, they will be attacked. In other words, keep you beliefs to yourself. If not, get ready.

i said i LIKE gay people and just because you say i dont ..

No you don't. You believe gay people should be denied the basic human, civil and Constitutional rights of equality. How about if I said I like mormons, but I don't think they should be allowed to get married or have other rights because I don't like their "lifestyle?" Would you think I still like them? (Or, if you're not mormon but some other religious whatever and I said the same thing, would you say I still like you?)

your opinion is nothing because YOU are nobody..

My opinion is based upon fact, and that makes me a very important somebody. Your opinion is based upon superstition, and that makes you a nobody.

you get off on being a bully..

You're the one saying gays should not have the equal protection of the law (while you claim you "like" them). That makes you a bully. You get off on thinking people are inferior if they don't appease your god and practice your magic rituals. You keep your god to yourself, bully. We've seen your kind before, from the schoolyard to the corporate office to the voting booth.

you are someone people need to watch out for before we see you all over the news doing some crazy JAMES HOLMES STUNT

You are the kind we need to watch out for before you fly a jet filled with terrified people into a skyscraper because you think your fictitious god wants you to. All you fanatic religious nutcases are the same - full of hate and evil. I so hope you don't have children. If you do, I hope the CPS finds out and takes them away. The kind of darkness you espouse should not be allowed to be passed to them; that would be child abuse.

OK, I don't want to understand it and I don't have to accept it. It's just wrong.

Wait, panhead, are you talking about the mormon religion or homosexuality? I honestly couldn't tell. Either way, whatever you believe in is probably pretty stupid.

Panhead, you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it is.

Whats to hate? A Mormon man can say ennie meenie minee moe, this is the Doe of wife #7 that is on deck tonight. Sign me up............

Let's see the heterosexuals go without sex ever and see what happens......oh wait....Catholic Priests.

How many millions of dollars did the Mormon church dump into Prop 8 in California? Jay, the Mormons need to go a long long way to apologize. For now they've got my hate.

Panhead-3909678

OK, I don't want to understand it and I don't have to accept it. It's just wrong.

For you it's wrong, and that's perfectly fine, as long as you don't dictate what conclusions others draw for themselves. Just as you wouldn't want someone forcing you to have gay sex, people also don't want to be forced to follow your religion or any religion, nor should they have to accept that. That is also just wrong.

To me, religion is pornography for the weak soul; i.e. others doing it for your pleasure while you sit there passively, letting those at the alter stroke and stimulate your spiritual ego into bliss while you benignly watch from a safe distance.

All are welcome on Kolob! As long as they remain pure as the driven snow, of course.

Walter, that's some fantasy life you've got there... yeesh.

when the law states I have to accept the filth, scat and rimming I speak up.

Actually, no law states you have to accept anything.

Just that you can't go around using it to deny them rights.

I understand now!!!

But only those in good standing are allowed to poop and urinate.

OK, I don't want to understand it and I don't have to accept it. It's just wrong.

When I first came out of the closet it was to my shrink and the first thing he asked me was "When did you first realize that you where having Mormon thoughts?"

: )

"Actually, no law states you have to accept anything."

Oh yes it does.

Read "Lawrence vs Texas" and Educate yourself.

Read "Lawrence vs Texas" and Educate yourself.

Nowhere in the decision of said case are you required to accept anything.

Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote the majority opinion which Justices John Paul Stevens, David Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer joined. He wrote: "The petitioners [Lawrence and Garner] are entitled to respect for their private lives. The State cannot demean their existence or control their destiny by making their private sexual conduct a crime." Kennedy reviewed the assumption the court made in Bowers, using the words of Chief Justice Burger's concurring opinion in that case, that "Condemnation of [homosexual practices] is firmly rooted in Judeao-Christian moral and ethical standards." He reviewed the history of legislation that criminalized certain sexual practices, but without regard for the sex of those involved. He cited the Model Penal Code's recommendations since 1955, the Wolfenden Report of 1963, and a 1981 decision of the European Court of Human Rights.

He endorsed the views Justice Stevens had outlined in his dissent in Bowers and wrote: "Bowers was not correct when it was decided, and it is not correct today. It ought not to remain binding precedent. Bowers v. Hardwick should be and now is overruled." The majority decision also held that the intimate, adult consensual conduct at issue here was part of the liberty protected by the substantive component of the Fourteenth Amendment's due process protections. Holding that "the Texas statute furthers no legitimate state interest which can justify its intrusion into the personal and private life of the individual," the court struck down the anti-sodomy law as unconstitutional.

Kennedy underscored the decision's focus on consensual adult sexual conduct in a private setting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas

Sodomy is now legal-

So? If you don't accept sodomy, don't do it.

At no point are you forced to accept it.

You are strawmanning.

Walter_P_Oreilly - Lawrence vs Texas

when the law states I have to accept the filth, scat and rimming I speak up.

I take it you support the Texas sodomy law in its original form?

No surprise given that you're obviously a bible-thumper and that law made it legal for you to rape your sheep.

It ought not to remain binding precedent. Bowers v. Hardwick should be and now is overruled

Bowers vs Hardwick is now illegal-

Walter, filth, scat and rimming? You seem very familiar with the terminology. Maybe thats just because heterosexuals practice all the same "perversions", just in bigger numbers. But don't let truth hamper your hate.

But don't let truth hamper your hate.

hate-just pointing out the errors of your ways-want you to go to heaven-how is that hate?

Walter you seem so very much immersed in what homosexuals do behind closed doors. Me doth think you protest too much. Son own your gayness, you will feel less self-loathing and as such you will be less likely to spew that loathing out on the rest of the world! Being closeted is unhealthy...and by the way, a "choice." Choose life as God intended it for you and stop trying to hide behind your fear and loathing; we will all be better for it! Be a man, not a coward! If you need help I am happy to point you in the right direction.

Have a peaceful day!

So your God ripped the homes away from innocent children because someone else stuck their what what in the wrong hoo hoo? Your God is sick and perverted himself. And you follow that trash.

the errors of my ways--- in your opinion. Go thump yourself.

tag-2907728

So your God ripped the homes away from innocent children because someone else stuck their what what in the wrong hoo hoo? Your God is sick and perverted himself. And you follow that trash.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I didn't make the rules, just follow them.

========================

fubar77

Walter you seem so very much immersed in what homosexuals do behind closed doors.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I don't care what they do behind closed doors, If gays stayed there, no problem

the need to pass laws-for same sex marriage and sodomy is my problem-talked about this earlier-pay attention.

Me doth think you protest too much.

+++++++++++++++++++++

just pointing out the errors of your ways.

=========================

Son own your gayness, you will feel less self-loathing and as such you will be less likely to spew that loathing out on the rest of the world! Being closeted is unhealthy...and by the way, a "choice." Choose life as God intended it for you and stop trying to hide behind your fear and loathing; we will all be better for it! Be a man, not a coward! If you need help I am happy to point you in the right direction.

Have a peaceful day!

+++++++++++++++++++++++

I love it when gays start the personal attacks-I know I have made my point then.

Can't argue with my message, attack the messenger, right!

=================================================

oh and "PRAISE GOD"

tag-2907728

the errors of my ways--- in your opinion. Go thump yourself.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Not my opinion, God's rule.

+++++++++++++++++++++++

I love it when gays start the personal attacks-I know I have made my point then.

Can't argue with my message, attack the messenger, right!

=================================================

oh and "PRAISE GOD"

====================

Walter,

so you don't want to accept homosexuality, but I have to accept your silly fairy tales?

walter,

my god, the flying spaghetti monster, is a tolerant god, may he dump tomato sauce all over all your white shirts

Walter, How did I attack you personally?...or should I call you Radar? Are you saying it is an insult to call someone gay? Why would you take it as an insult Sir? I mean thus far you have shown such tolerance, why the sudden change? *sarcasm*

Yes you doth protest wayyyyy too much. And you can rail all you want, but gays are here to stay and your lifestyle, which by the way you have chosen, because I don't believe for one minute you truly are straight, is in no danger from said gays.

Stop your belly aching already. The world is moving forward you can join us or be left behind. Hate is losing! You really want to be on the losing side of things? As for your God? If I were to believe in such things I would say, he is watching and taking note of your intolerance. So hit your knees to be with a man like you really want...or hit your knees to pray for forgiveness. Too mean of me? Maybe, just tired of your kind and your hate mongering!

Live your life and let others worry about theirs!

Walter, you must be a troll, but I'll bite.

Homosexuality is condemned in the same book of the Bible that condemns wearing 2 different types of thread, eating unclean animals (shellfish and the type), encourages stoning disobedient children, says women must live outside during their periods etc. So do you follow all that, or is there something that you just hate about gay people? Do you condemn divorced people too? Or people who work on the Sabbath (are also suppose to die)? Homophobic people using faith to justify their hate are disgusting.

Lori W-2777522

Walter,

so you don't want to accept homosexuality, but I have to accept your silly fairy tales?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Lori-your not paying attention

Read and Study:

www.end-times-prophecy.org/bible-prophecy-and-probability.html

then get back to me.

Hahahahaha......The Bible is fun!

Dom, Free country.....I will not STFU....and tell me does God frown on someone saying STFU? Not very Christian of you. Wait are you one of those hypocrites that I have heard so much about?

Take you own advice and then take your hate some place else.

fubar77

Walter, How did I attack you personally?...or should I call you Radar? Are you saying it is an insult to call someone gay? Why would you take it as an insult Sir? I mean thus far you have shown such tolerance, why the sudden change? *sarcasm*

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

that would be like me calling you "hetero" - insulting isn't it.

=====================================

I don't believe for one minute you truly are straight

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

What makes you believe that-because I'm trying to point out the errors of your ways?

=====================================================

Stop your belly aching already. The world is moving forward you can join us or be left behind. Hate is losing! You really want to be on the losing side of things? As for your God? If I were to believe in such things I would say, he is watching and taking note of your intolerance.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Intolerance!!-Where does it say in the Bible I have to tolerate your behavior?

================================================

So hit your knees to be with a man like you really want...or hit your knees to pray for forgiveness.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I hit my knees to pray everyday-you should do the same to-An eternity in Hell is no fun.
====================================================

Too mean of me? Maybe, just tired of your kind and your hate mongering!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

hate mongering-How to you figure I hate you if I truly believe your going to hell and I'm trying to point to your erroring ways.

===============================================

Live your life and let others worry about theirs!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I trust then you will take care to extend me the same courtesy.

=======================================

DomCarHer - You equate God as a flying spaghetti monster.

The difference is that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is real, while your god is a figment of your fevered imagination.

MrBurns

Walter, you must be a troll, but I'll bite.

Homosexuality is condemned in the same book of the Bible that condemns wearing 2 different types of thread, eating unclean animals (shellfish and the type), encourages stoning disobedient children, says women must live outside during their periods etc. So do you follow all that, or is there something that you just hate about gay people? Do you condemn divorced people too? Or people who work on the Sabbath (are also suppose to die)? Homophobic people using faith to justify their hate are disgusting.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Mr Burns-I've answered the above from Biblical illiterates like you many times before:

don't you understand in those days blended fabric caused rashes, pigs don't sweat, and beards identified pagans.

Read and understand:

Matthew 5: 17-18 and educate yourself.

Part of the "Sermon on the Mount"

And also: Read and pay extra special close attention to:

www.end-times-prophecy.org/bible-prophecy-and-probability.html

And Praise God!

Walter_P_Oreilly

when the law states I have to accept the filth, scat and rimming I speak up

How far up that gay man's ass was your tongue forced by the state of Texas anyway? I guess if you're straight and if that's what was mandated, you have every right to speak up. But it wasn't really, was it?

However I find myself being preached to, given links to bible related quotes, etc. in your posts. I don't see any quotes from people telling you how you must abide and do the things which you loath so much; but there are many, many persons, such as yourself, who are spitting bible quotes and forcing your pornographic links to bible sites on others, telling me what I need to do for my soul - MY soul. Keep your religious porn to yourself. My eternal soul finds your intrusive beliefs offensive, as it has for all eternity.

skrekk

DomCarHer - You equate God as a flying spaghetti monster.

The difference is that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is real, while your god is a figment of your fevered imagination.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Read this and Get back to me:

www.end-times-prophecy.org/bible-prophecy-and-probability.html

And Praise God!

=========================================

Rick's Real

Walter_P_Oreilly

when the law states I have to accept the filth, scat and rimming I speak up

How far up that gay man's ass was your tongue forced by the state of Texas anyway? I guess if you're straight and if that's what was mandated, you have every right to speak up. But it wasn't really, was it?

However I find myself being preached to, given links to bible related quotes, etc. in your posts. I don't see any quotes from people telling you how you personally should use your own body; but there are many, many persons, such as yourself, who are quoting pornographic bible quotes and forcing your pornographic links to bible sites on others telling me what I need to do for my soul - MY soul. Keep your religious porn to yourself. My eternal soul finds your intrusive beliefs offensive, as it has for all eternity.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

+++++++++++++++++++++++

I love it when gays start the personal attacks-I know I have made my point then.

Can't argue with my message, attack the messenger, right!

=================================================

oh and "PRAISE GOD"

====================

Walter,

One book and one way of thinking does not an educated person make. Have you ever bothered to challenge your ideals in any way whatsoever?

lavrn

Walter,

One book and one way of thinking does not an educated person make. Have you ever bothered to challenge your ideals in any way whatsoever?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yes many individuals and I have believed other but:

www.end-times-prophecy.org/bible-prophecy-and-probability.html

Walter....you assume I am gay just because I stand up for said individuals. I don't think anyone has ever used the term "hetero" as an insult. Do you even read what you write? You should, as it is really is sort of..... well ignorant!

As far as being called hetero is concerned....it wouldn't offend me regardless of my sexuality. Nor would being called gay. You are the one who uses the term gay in a derogatory manner. Look up derogatory if you have to.

Regardless and more importantly...from your mouth to God's ears! SCOTUS is going to hear cases on gay marriage. Hahahahaha your worst fears realized!

Booyah!

Keep railing...he is paying attention! Be at peace my friend!

Love my country!

Walter_P_Oreilly,

Nope, not a troll, just ignorant.

Im very Bible literate Walter. I've probably read it more than you have. Oh, and Im a straight Christian, I just follow Jesus's message not to judge people. You should follow what Jesus said Walter. When did he say anything about gay people?

Im not reading your stupid end times crap. People have been predicting the end times since Jesus died. Hell, there was an entire book of the Bible where a group of people were just waiting around for Jesus to come back and had to be told that it will happen when no one knows it. Even someone as "intelligent" as yourself dear Walter.

And I do realize that much of what was said in the book were things to help us out. Even my example, stay away from a woman on her period, good advice God. But do you favor killing people for these offenses? Do you go around huffing and puffing at people working on the Sabbath. There are many many sins, and Jesus spoke of many like divorce. But homosexuality is pretty absent. What makes homosexuality the thing that you hate that you have to speak out on? Again, just because you hate gays doesnt mean you get to distort the Bible to follow your ignorance. Stop making Jesus and Christianity about hate.

Talking to you is like shoveling sand against the tide.....you don't think logically. So I will let you have the last word, but I have faith in our Supreme Court.....you keep your faith in the Supreme Father...thing is he is on the side of justice too.

Try to let go of the hate, it is eating you up!

Off to strap one on and have "gay" sex with a male partner! Wait, if I am female and I strap one on and do my husband up the butt, is that gay? Is he gay or am I? Or are we both? Does your Bible say? I am curious!

Nice post Mr. Burns. I get hope every time I read a post from a "real" Christian , one who doesn't distort Jesus's teachings to support his own bigoted belief! I know they are out there and you are proof!

Thank you Sir and have a great day!

Thanks Fubar. I just hate seeing someone damage Jesus's teachings by making them about hate when they are all about not judging, forgiving, doing good, and showing mercy.

And I love your question there at the end. I started laughing when I read it.

Interestingly enough, I dont see "hate" from the church here.

I DO see "disagreement" with a lifestyle.

I DO see tolerance.

What I also see here, is the HATE against the church, from a lot of YOU on here.

First, I am not Mormon, and I am not Christian.

Second, what we see in this article, is the church:

1. acknowledges that "sex attraction, is not a personal choice."

2. reiterates that "sexual activity should only occur between a man and a woman who are married." - This is NOT hate, guys - not against gays and not against heterosexuals - it's simply their belief that ALL (do you hear me, haters ?) ALL extramarital sex is wrong - this is NOT anything CLOSE to differentiating between sexual preference.

3. That, "acting on that attraction (same sex) is still a "sin." BUT - "advising Mormon parents not to reject children who pursue a gay lifestyle." - THIS IS NOT "HATE"

4. "ended directives that Latter-Day Saints should oppose civil rights for gay families. In 2009, it officially endorsed gay rights initiatives in Salt Lake City that stopped just short of civil unions or marriage." AGAIN, THIS IS NOT HATE. Mormons are allowed to believe as THEY see fit. They believe that marriage is a union between a man and a woman (or plurality, but, again, their beliefs - it's not for you to say what can and cant be believed in someone Else's religion). They have called for, and worked for...EQUAL civil rights.

What you fail to understand here, is just how much a jump this Mormon stance IS. In Christianity (unlike Judaism), if you have "evil" thoughts, it is tantamount to doing the deed. (unlike Judaism, where you have to DO the deed, to get the "sin") HERE, the Mormons have said that attraction (thoughts) is not evil - that's a HUGE step.

Again, it seems that, if the Mormons dont believe in the gay agenda 100% they are haters...sorry, but I see different haters on here. These are the haters that would NEVER allow Mormons to practice as THEY believe, because it impinges on someone Else's agenda - just who are the intolerants here ?

Walter_P_Oreilly

Lori-your not paying attention

Read and Study:

www.end-times-prophecy.org/bible-prophecy-and-probability.html

then get back to me.

What you teach is the same old @!$%# that's been taught for thousands of years. You think the problem is that people aren't paying attention to you?!? What an out-of-control ego one must have to think his knowledge is the truth, that his knowledge is all knowledge!

It isn't that the word hasn't been spread far and wide for centuries; it isn't a matter of lost little souls just too simple minded to comprehend the word; rather it's a matter of rational, intelligent people reading, comprehending and then outright rejecting the word based on this real world right here - not on fears and irrational observations from centuries past. It's not that people are stupid, or that they "just can't learn". It's that there is nothing - absolutely NOTHING - new in your end-times prophecy link. Religious zealots are going to have to understand that we've heard your arguments, digested their meaning and then FEARLESSLY rejected them. You don't want to go to hell? Fine. Don't go there. Believe that there is a hell which you must avoid. Fine by me. But when you try to "teach" people your chosen ways, you assume I haven't clearly heard every bull@!$%# fairy tale your kind have repeated all my life - and dismissed it as folly.

Nobody's trying to get you to accept physical intrusion against your will. Stop trying to get us to believe what you desire to believe, regardless of your well-intentioned motivations. Stop trying to force upon us what can only be regarded as spiritual intrusions.

fubar77

Walter....you assume I am gay just because I stand up for said individuals.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

fag or fag enabler-God hates the later worse anyway.

====================================

I don't think anyone has ever used the term "hetero" as an insult. Do you even read what you write? You should, as it is really is sort of..... well ignorant!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

see above-gay or gay enabler-God hates the later worse

==========================================

As far as being called hetero is concerned....it wouldn't offend me regardless of my sexuality. Nor would being called gay. You are the one who uses the term gay in a derogatory manner. Look up derogatory if you have to.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So does God "Leviticus 18 22 Romans 1, etc.

=====================================

Regardless and more importantly...from your mouth to God's ears! SCOTUS is going to hear cases on gay marriage. Hahahahaha your worst fears realized!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

worse fears!!-no, their decision will speed up the Lord's coming-can't wait.

==============================================

Booyah!

Keep railing...he is paying attention! Be at peace my friend!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Love my country!

Yeah the countries DOOM will soon be here.

=================================

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On judgment day (coming soon) God is going to here the case also!

Betcha SCOTUS and God's final decisions are far different.

=============================================

I really dont understand why people believe that when you dont agree with something, its because you "hate" them! Thats ignorant at best! I think its easy to disagree in love, i do it every day with my kids. GROW UP people.

you are disgusting and shameful....How do you look in the mirror at yourself?

Un-natural --Do you know the definition? Can't take what is unnatural and turn it into natural no matter how you spin or twist it.........Clueless and immoral u r................

Walter_P_Oreilly

+++++++++++++++++++++++

I love it when gays start the personal attacks-I know I have made my point then.

Can't argue with my message, attack the messenger, right!

=================================================

oh and "PRAISE GOD"

Not gay, sorry to burst your tiny little bubble world. Married to the same woman for decades.

fubar77

but I have faith in our Supreme Court.....

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

so do I, Hey we agree on something, they will legalize same sex marriage and God will be here soon.

=============================================================

you keep your faith in the Supreme Father...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

I sure will

=========================

thing is he is on the side of justice too.

Try to let go of the hate, it is eating you up!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

you haven't answer my question about how you have come up with the fact that I hate you and homosexuals-do you truly want to go to hell?

=============================================

Off to strap one on and have "gay" sex with a male partner!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I'm sure you have a "BUTT BUDDY"

or enable many of them.

=======================

Wait, if I am female and I strap one on and do my husband up the butt, is that gay?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It's sodomy-

=====================

Is he gy or am I? Or are we both? Does your Bible say? I am curious!

the Bible says your both adulterers.

=============================================

Rick's Real

Walter_P_Oreilly

Lori-your not paying attention

Read and Study:

www.end-times-prophecy.org/bible-prophecy-and-probability.html

then get back to me.

What you teach is the same old @!$%# that's been taught for thousands of years. You think the problem is that people aren't paying attention to you?!? What an out-of-control ego one must have to think his knowledge is the truth, that his knowledge is all knowledge!

It isn't that the word hasn't been spread far and wide for centuries; it isn't a matter of lost little souls just too simple minded to comprehend the word; rather it's a matter of rational, intelligent people reading, comprehending and then outright rejecting the word based on this real world right here - not on fears and irrational observations from centuries past. It's not that people are stupid, or that they "just can't learn". It's that there is nothing - absolutely NOTHING - new in your end-times prophecy link. Religious zealots are going to have to understand that we've heard your arguments, digested their meaning and then FEARLESSLY rejected them. You don't want to go to hell? Fine. Don't go there. Believe that there is a hell which you must avoid. Fine by me. But when you try to "teach" people your chosen ways, you assume I haven't clearly heard every bull@!$%# fairy tale your kind have repeated all my life - and dismissed it as folly.

Nobody's trying to get you to accept physical intrusion against your will. Stop trying to get us to believe what you desire to believe, regardless of your well-intentioned motivations. Stop trying to force upon us what can only be regarded as spiritual intrusions.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

not much to comment on here-God sure has seized up your mind.

===========================================

Rick's Real

Not gay, sorry to burst your tiny little bubble world. Married to the same woman for decades.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

gay or gay enabler-God hates the later worse.

===============================

DomCarHer

You are a despicable, atheistic POS. I can't stand what you and your ilk have done to Tradition in this country. You equate God as a flying spaghetti monster. Stop repeating a phrase of what a much smarter but much more of an azzhole liberal has allready coined. The haters of religion and the acceptors of vice are destroying our once conservative country. If you don't believe in religion, STFU. If you are Pro-homosexual, STFU. It is all the trash can rattling you liberal pukes are doing that is most upsetting. Your causes are disgusting and immoral. You have single handedly turned things that used to be a literal circus into mainstream.

Wow! Do you use that same uncouth language when you pray to your God?

I can hear it now:

"Hey, God, f***ing kill all the queers and skanks in this world in the most f***king painful way possible. Let their f***ing bodies lay on the f***king street and f***king rot for all the f***ing liberals to see. F***king thank you. In f***ing Jesus name, I f***king pray, Gott day-um it!"

I think Walter is trying very hard NOT to come out of the closet. The real tell, though, was when he started buying stock in K-Y jelly.

Walter, why in the sam-T-hell do you (or anybody else posting so negatively about gays in this forum) give a rat's ass about how other people want to live? No one is forcing you to bend over or drop to your knees. You are like so many bible-thumping idiots out there who aren't satisfied with being allowed to have their own beliefs, lifestyle and faith; you feel some overwhelming need to control everybody else as well. Can't you be satisfied living your life in the manner you see fit and allowing others to do the same? Why made you the ultimate authority and enforcer of a blinder-wearing, linear-thought philosophy? Who ordained you to be the one to judge others? What happened to:

• Judge not, lest ye be judged

All your self-righteous bullcrap is tiring. It is little wonder why people are pulling back from organized religion, if they have to listen to the blustering rantings of people like you. How can you condemn others and call yourself a Christian? If Christ were to come to your door you would most likely turn Him away because He isn't lily white and He is tolerant. I am reminded of the shortest sentence in the bible ... it applies to these narrow-minded views:

• Jesus wept

By the way, I am straight, not that it matters.

MrBurns

Walter_P_Oreilly,

Nope, not a troll, just ignorant.

Im very Bible literate Walter. I've probably read it more than you have. Oh, and Im a straight Christian, I just follow Jesus's message not to judge people.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It does not say not to judge, just don't judge the way you don't want to be judged.

=====================================================

You should follow what Jesus said Walter. When did he say anything about gay people?

Im not reading your stupid end times crap.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

read it-it's not just end times - prophecy is the main point.

======================================

People have been predicting the end times since Jesus died. Hell, there was an entire book of the Bible where a group of people were just waiting around for Jesus to come back and had to be told that it will happen when no one knows it. Even someone as "intelligent" as yourself dear Walter.

And I do realize that much of what was said in the book wee things to help us out. Even my example, stay away from a woman on her period, good advice God. But do you favor killing people for these offenses? Do you go around huffing and puffing at people working on the Sabbath. There are many many sins, and Jesus spoke of many like divorce. But homosexuality is pretty absent. What makes homosexuality the thing that you hate that you have to speak out on? Again, just because you hate gays doesnt mean you get to distort the Bible to follow your ignorance. Stop making Jesus and Christianity about hate.

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not hate-just tryin to educate.

=========================

D. Appel

I think Walter is trying very hard NOT to come out of the closet. The real tell, though, was when he started buying stock in K-Y jelly.

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???

=====================

Walter, why in the sam-T-hell do you (or anybody else posting so negatively about gays in this forum) give a rat's ass about how other people want to live?

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the Lord commands that I speak up in 2 Timothy 2:4

==================================

No one is forcing you to bend over or drop to your knees. You are like so many bible-thumping idiots out there who aren't satisfied with being allowed to have their own beliefs, lifestyle and faith; you feel some overwhelming need to control everybody else as well. Can't you be satisfied living your life in the manner you see fit and allowing others to do the same? Why made you the ultimate authority and enforcer of a blinder-wearing, linear-thought philosophy? Who ordained you to be the one to judge others? What happened to:

• Judge not, lest ye be judged
• Judge as you want to be judged.

============================

By the way, I am straight, not that it matters.

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Thanx for the info

============================

Walter, you didnt answer any of my questions at all. Any challenge whatsoever you ran away from. Man up and answer why you single out homosexuality when Jesus said nothing on it, yet dont accept all the other "sins" that dont seem to matter to you. You're not educating anyone, you are just acting like an idiot. Ill give you a chance Walter to explain. Please do.

MrBurns

Walter, you didnt answer any of my questions at all. Any challenge whatsoever you ran away from. Man up and answer why you single out homosexuality when Jesus said nothing on it

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Jesus didn't have to say anything about homosexuality-he read Paul the riot act for 3 years and in Paul's first Book in the very first Chapter of Romans 1 (especially 26-32) summed it up-now read and educate yourself.

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yet dont accept all the other "sins" that dont seem to matter to you. You're not educating anyone, you are just acting like an idiot. Ill give you a chance Walter to explain. Please do.

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I never said none of the other sins matter, this is the one the blog is discussing.

================================================

Gee, Walter, revising the bible to serve your own narrow views, I see.

Matthew 7:1: "Judge not lest ye be judged", from he King James Version of the Bible. This is from Jesus' teaching in the New Testament, you remember ... the New Testament is the book Christians are SUPPOSED to be following. Funny how you always seem to fall back to the Old Testament, before Jesus, before forgiveness, in order to make your argument for your obvious bigotry and fear.

Revelations 22:19: "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." Go ahead, Walter, change the Book at your own self-imposed peril.

How can you profess to be Christian yet spout the old testament (basically Jewish law) when you find something in society you are afraid of. If you really follow the distortion of Christianity you profess, then live by the teachings of the New Testament and Jesus Christ. God stopped being angry and vengeful after he had a kid. You want to spout the Book of Leviticus and follow those teachings, it is your right, but live the ENTIRE book, don't pick and choose the parts that appeal to you and ignore the stuff you enjoy doing by rationalizing that only SOME of the Bible is valid. Stand by your convictions - ALL OR NOTHING. It's either completely right or completely wrong according to your black and white view of the world.

Do you not understand that the rules changed after Jesus was born? Has no one ever allowed you to be at peace and live in love? Jesus taught love, generosity, peace and tolerance ... he was a Democratic Socialist. You are a small-minded bigot attempting to use religion as a sword to injure others. You should be ashamed of yourself for having the audacity to try to represent God. Who gave you the right to do that? It certainly wasn't Jesus.

@Walter

the Lord commands that I speak up in 2 Timothy 2:4

2 Timothy 2:4, King James Bible: "No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier."

How is THAT a command for you to speak up?

Walter, you really need medication or professional help. All your posturing trying to defend what is nothing more than veiled bigotry and a lack of compassion, tolerance and understanding for others is just ignorant. The LDS 'church' also taught that "black people" were that color because God marked them as lesser beings.

All the vile hatred spewed into this world in the name of religion is so very sad. God must be shaking his head wondering how, after all this time, we still have not been able to learn how to live in peace with each other and why people are still using His name to justify their hatred.

You are what you are and I feel sorry for you.

2 Timothy 4:2 I believe is the correct passage

"Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction."

judging others

"http://www.openbible.info/topics/judging_others"

Although I disagree almost entirely in Walter has said. I have to point it out.

Some of the comments against him (some, not all) seem to just be attacking his beliefs and moral structure. If you ask "don't judge others" but aren't you doing the same? So far, I haven't seen him argue what legal or political matters is based on his belief. I haven't heard him write actions that need to be "taken" becuase it violates his morality, only really saying what his are.

I am a big supporter of the LGBT community. Mostly becuase I think What people think, act or feel, should be theirs. If that is the love of their faith and religeon, So be it! If that is their love for another human being, you know what, so be it! If you want to debate him on gay marriage and other civil legislation, feel free. However, don't just attack him as dumb or non-informed or some lower form of life just becuase he has deep seated religeous views.

Now Walter, this is for you. I understand you have strong religious views, but you must understand that this country was founded on freedom of religeon, where everyone can practice what they believe. To legislate with the sole rational of "my faith tells me so" makes us a theocracy. You have to realize that asking people to vote and support measures based on that is going to not work.

Now Walter, this is for you. I understand you have strong religious views, but you must understand that this country was founded on freedom of religeon, where everyone can practice what they believe. To legislate with the sole rational of "my faith tells me so" makes us a theocracy. You have to realize that asking people to vote and support measures based on that is going to not work.

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One nation "under God"and God wrote us a letter "The Bible"

The first amendment added because the original Constitution had nothing about religion goes something like:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Do all of you HATERS realize that the bible says that homosexuals will be cast into hell? "IF" you believe in the bible.. God LOVES everyone, but liars, homosexuals, theifs will not enter the kingdom of heaven.It sadens God that HIS creations chose to go against him.. Walter is just trying to tell you because thats what jesus would want us to do. Warn you that he loves you and wants you to turn from you sin and he has such big plans for your life.. And all you jerks are being mean an name calling!?! So you dont care about God an religion but you should have MORALS and treat people with respect! thats not a religious thing thats common sense..

Karen Kone - So you dont care about God an religion but you should have MORALS and treat people with respect!

Bigots like you who would deny the civil rights of other Americans deserve no respect at all.

Panhead-3909678

OK, I don't want to understand it and I don't have to accept it. It's just wrong.

Well then Panhead, you had better hope you never have a son or daughter who comes to you and tells you he/ she's gay. Because if that ever happens you will have the choice to either try to understand and accept your own child's sexuality and help him/her to cope, or refuse to accept it and make his/her life even more difficult than it already is.

Just a point or two, A Catholic priest thats male that has sex with littles boys that are also male makes him heterosexual ??? How so ? And that often quoted phrase, " Judge not lest ye be judged " is always dragged out to prove that we should not have or voice an opinion that differs with the sayer of the quote. But there are other quotes that come from the same book, and it clearly defines that practice. You see you cant take some of the Bible while ignoring the rest. That same book says that we have to be discerning . That we have to choose right from wrong as described in the bible. And the same book that says judge not lest ye be judged also said there is nothing new under the sun. That things that were wrong then are still wrong today. And that same book says that we all have been given a free will. So live your lives your own way, just dont think that everyone should see things your way as I dont think anyone should see things my way. If GODs lessons and warnings mean nothing to you so be it. The book of the revelation is filled with the results of those that did their own way.

Pretty much.

While your on that subject.

God's an absentee landlord. lol.

If there is one that certainly is the truth. lol

It's a very small baby step, since the Mormon church still is funding anti-gay hate groups and still opposes full civil rights for gays.

It might help reduce the physical and psychological abuse gay Mormons receive from their families, but that's about it.

Seems kinda cruel...

Really? Compared to what? He killed all the innocent "first born" sons of Egypt just to punish one guy.

Not really any more cruel than his messing with me by making me covet my neighbor's wife.

Actually, rules against "coveting" are in the Ten Commandments.

Nothing about gay sex though.

Apparently gay sex is not as bad as "coveting your neighbor's ox".

Scuba, no kidding. But according to Judeo-Christian-Islamic mythology, which millions of folks actually believe happened, this same God who loves us all drowned everyone on Earth except for one lucky family (as well as every animal except for two of each species).

Sam,

God was even crueler than that. Not only did God kill all the firstborn Egyptians because the Pharaoh wouldn't let the Jew's leave, God was the one who made the Pharaoh not listen to Moses!

But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

Exodus 9:12

And seven of each clean species.

Scuba, no kidding. But according to Judeo-Christian-Islamic mythology, which millions of folks actually believe happened, this same God who loves us all drowned everyone on Earth except for one lucky family (as well as every animal except for two of each species).

Billions, justme, billions. 1.5 billion catholics and 1 billion muslims alone.

is no God, is Satan who mess with God creation...

It would have been so much easier to just kill the Pharoah.

Are you sure he "designed" the universe? He doesn't really seem to be smart enough.

Maybe some other smarter God did the actual design work, and then subcontracted the construction out to the Christian god.

is no God, is Satan who mess with God creation...

And just who created SATAN? While your answering questions...I want to know who created satin....it's so soft.

Maybe some other smarter God did the actual design work, and then subcontracted the construction out to the Christian god.

I think the subcontractor must have had Satan on his work crew and that's where all the dinosaur bones came from.

Eric- I, as well as many other Catholics I know, don't believe that the Old Testament is all word-for-word truth, especially creation and the flood. Besides the countless translations it's been through, much of it is more along the lines of stories/fables/lessons. Parts of it are old Jewish laws that don't have any relevence anymore (seafood, anyone?).

My personal thought, especially on the creation story, is that perhaps God inspired someone to write that story as an extremely simplistic version of the history of the world. If you change the word 'day' to 'period of time', it's surprisingly realistic. Things like: night and day- our planet forms and rotates in orbit around the sun. separating the waters and land- geographical activity such as earthquakes and volcanoes forming continents. plants, animals, humans created- evolution puts them in the same chronological order.

sam-298381 - He killed all the innocent "first born" sons of Egypt just to punish one guy.

Even worse, he killed all the first-born farm animals.

That's one violent and psychotic imaginary friend.

Well, for the record, inmissouri, I was mearly correcting the general numbers justme had used for the followers of the Abrahamic religions. Though on the basis of Catholics alone, you sadly represent a minority of Catholics in general, which is something unlikely to change given the conservative tendancies of the current Pope(along with certain fanatical tendencies of the members). This also says nothing about members of the other varying Christian faiths, or the varying Islamic or Jewish faiths as well.

sam-298381

Actually, rules against "coveting" are in the Ten Commandments.

Nothing about gay sex though.

Apparently gay sex is not as bad as "coveting your neighbor's ox".

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oh yes there is sam

“You shall not commit adultery.-I'm sure you've heard of that one.

adultery-
Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse.

============================================================

skrekk

sam-298381 - He killed all the innocent "first born" sons of Egypt just to punish one guy.

Even worse, he killed all the first-born farm animals.

That's one violent and psychotic imaginary friend.

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maybe to you-but remember- you are a:

"MERE STUPID HUMAN"

===============================

Thanks for the advice Walter, but if I were a deity I wouldn't punish the innocent sons for the crimes of their fathers, much less the crimes of their Pharaoh.

Nor would I kill farm animals for the crimes of the Pharaoh.

And you worship a psychotic nutball that would do those things. Sounds like you belong to a rather twisted and unethical cult.

@Walter_P_Oreilly - you're covering homosexuality with the adultery thing? Seems like you have no pressure on the QB and no coverage on the wide-outs going deep. You're good with gay sex so long as no participants are married?

Walter, if you are so brilliant and enlightened, why don't you know that you can't quote a book to prove that book's veracity? That wouldn't get you past first grade. You can't prove you are right about any of what you are saying, and no matter how many times you post the same link over and over and over it won't make any more sense or be any more factual. Feel free to believe as you wish, but your freedom to do that means others have the same freedom...no one else has to believe as you do. Your God isn't any more provable than anyone else's, so please feel free to follow your own path and allow others to do the same.

ram-762581

Walter, if you are so brilliant and enlightened, why don't you know that you can't quote a book to prove that book's veracity?

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You don't have to quote the Bible, just look at facts.

===================================================

That wouldn't get you past first grade. You can't prove you are right about any of what you are saying

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no, just prove the prophecies.

==========================

, and no matter how many times you post the same link over and over and over it won't make any more sense or be any more factual. Feel free to believe as you wish, but your freedom to do that means others have the same freedom...no one else has to believe as you do. Your God isn't any more provable than anyone else's, so please feel free to follow your own path and allow others to do the same.

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I'm not saying anyone has to believe the Bible-just look at the facts.

==========================================

Walter,

Where in the bible does god define marriage as being between a man and a woman? I get the "thou shalt not commit adultery" argument for why unmarried homosexuals shouldn't be doing it. But I can't find a verse that forbids same sex marriage.

Walter, my neighbor sometimes mows his lawn on the Sabbath. Shall I kill him as is required by Exodus 31:14-15? My father remarried after divorcing my mother, but he's Catholic. Shall I have him stoned to death as well as commanded by the bible in Mark 10:11-12? And if you sit next to a woman in church who speaks, do you silence her? Because according to 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 women need to shut the @!$%# up when in God's house. Oh, and I hope you're not planning a trip to Red Lobster anytime soon, Walter, because Leviticus 10-11 states that it would be an abomination unto you. Do you suppose God meant that eating all that have not fins and scales from the sea would cause America to become an Obama Nation to you? Because obviously God's will has been done in that case. Just seafood for thought.

Scuby,

Walter

Where in the bible does god define marriage as being between a man and a woman?

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Genesis 2:24

For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh

=======================================================

Rick's Real

Walter, my neighbor sometimes mows his lawn on the Sabbath. Shall I kill him as is required by Exodus 31:14-15? My father remarried after divorcing my mother, but he's Catholic. Shall I have him stoned to death as well as commanded by the bible in Mark 10:11-12? And if you sit next to a woman in church who speaks, do you silence her? Because according to 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 women need to shut the @!$%# up when in God's house.

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all sin is punishable by death, and no you don't have to worry when and how-God will take care of that

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Oh, and I hope you're not planning a trip to Red Lobster anytime soon, Walter, because Leviticus 10-11 states that it would be an abomination unto you. Do you suppose God meant that eating all that have not fins and scales from the sea would cause America to become an Obama Nation to you? Because obviously God's will has been done in that case. Just seafood for thought.

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Jesus purified all food, In Matthew and Mark among others.

=====================================

I do not give you permission to edit my statements, Walter, in part or in whole. You may reprint my words exactly as written, but don't change or censor them. Put them in or leave them out. You are not God. I did not write @!$%#, I wrote @!$%#. If you don't like the word @!$%#, too @!$%#ing bad. But I most definitely did not write @!$%#, you changed my word @!$%# into @!$%#. I do not give you permission to evolve my thoughts and statements into something that makes you more comfortable. Don't change my words again.

@Scubasteve58001 - you get how the adultery commandment, specifically by the definition Walter_P_Oreilly himself helpfully provides, prohibits unmarried homosexuals' "doing it"? I don't.

Erik-Actually the view that a good chunk of the bible is not literal but parable, is a core Catholic belief. Vatican 2 was a big change in Catholic dogma (supporting the idea of evolution for example). There are many churches, however, that see it more literally.

Walter_P_Oreilly

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all sin is punishable by death, and no you don't have to worry when and how-God will take care of that

Like he took care of all the victims of 9/11 who suffered the carnage and torture of a few deranged men who used the same GOD DAMNED myth to justify their attack?

When one buries himself so deep in religion - in anything for that matter - he gets to the point where he can no longer see the forest because there are too many trees in the way. And from the point of view of those of us unafraid to reject Jesus Christ the myth in favor of accepting Jesus Christ as a young man who had a really good head on his shoulders and a good heart and soul, and he taught the world a lot. So have many great philosophers. But at some point Christianity got hijacked by greedy men who control much of it's wealth today. Follow the money to the wealthiest of these charlatans and look at the education of those within the area of the country where they preach, and on whom they prey. If the story of Jesus Christ spews forth from the mouths of the wealthiest men in organized religion - the South... well we've just come off an election that showed us to what lengths wealthy men will go to protect their vast fortunes. You have been fooled by the best at what they've done for generations, and boy have you made them rich. Oh by the way, if you haven't seen the movie "Paul" with Seth Rogen, I highly recommend it.

Walter,

Genesis 2:24

For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh

Where does the bible define wife as specifically female.

Logic Rules,

Any two non-married people would be committing adultery when the do it. My counter-argument is that the bible doesn't define marriage as between a man and a woman. Or, at least, I can't find the passage where it says specifically that marriage is between a man and a woman.

Walter_P_Oreilly

Rick's Real

Leviticus 10-11 states that it would be an abomination unto you....eating all that have not fins and scales from the sea...

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Jesus purified all food, In Matthew and Mark among others.

Yes of course. If you don't like the way the fable's going, simply change it. Pick and choose what and how the words best serve you and your beliefs, and because you're such a good Christian, you know your answers will satisfy the world because they satisfy you. How convenient.

Walter_P_Oreilly

Scuby,

Walter

Where in the bible does god define marriage as being between a man and a woman?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Genesis 2:24

For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh

As you of the religious persuasion are apt to do when it suits your chosen vision and when it's convenient, let's look at Genesis 2:24 literally for a moment, shall we? Because I can assure you that if a man and his wife became one flesh, the Right would shun them without pity or remorse. We saw a prime example of how the Right treats people with disabilities at the UN this week. Imagine the special needs access required to accommodate two people living within a single flesh. You think my point of view is extreme? So be it. But my view has the capability to evolve and grow with new knowledge, yours doesn't. And if there is an all-knowing God, then He determined long ago that change is the only engine that has the capability to make all things new again.

So, if you're homsexual, you just don't ever fall in love or have sex?

I guess you can just become a Catholic priest, so you never have love or sex. Voila! The perfect solution!

...oh wait. That hasn't really worked too well, has it?

Like my urge to tell you you're a moron. I choose not to act on it. Despite all evidence in your comment pointing to you being a moron, I refuse to act on the the urge to refer to you as such because I am such a moral and righteous person.

Humans aren't damaged goods

Oh Captain, what evidence in his comment makes him a moron? Because you don't agree with it? This makes you reek of self righteousness. You are always right and everyone you don't agree with can't possibly be right either. Grow up.

People are the ones who say it is sin. People can change their minds, grow up, and accept they are wrong about it. There is no one else, nor nothing else, that says it's "wrong," because there isn't anything or anyone else to say so except us.

So it's minds like yours that create this non-existent problem. Could you quit?

"Sin" according to who? Quakers once found "sin" in music and dancing. Catholics have a whole list of sins that Mormons don't share. Buddhists see evil in the taking of life. An Orthodox Jewish woman sins if she doesn't cover her hair. At one time, democracy was seen as sinful, as God gave us kings, and at one time slavery and wife beating were NOT sinful, and were justified with Scripture. Notions of "sin" HAVE changed, even within churches.

God may have given us "rules", but He also gave us brains. Most of us anyways. Mormon religious teachings once stated that black people are descended from Cain, that their skin color is a result of a curse, and that it's wrong to ordain black people to the Mormon priesthood. Those teachings, based on their interpretation of Scripture or "special insights", eventually changed. If sex is for procreation only, then what of couples who have sex but choose not to have kids? What of couples who have sex when they physically can't have kids? What of elderly couples who have sex when they're too old to have children? Sinful, all of them? Sex is for procreation, but also for bonding, affection, love, and yes - pleasure. God told us to be fruitful and multiply. Jesus didn't. Did He sin too?

MM12 and Captain Hammers:

Just one question: If your son or daughter told you he/she is gay, what would you do? Would you "counsel" it out them? Would you burn them at the stake? Would you throw them out of your house and your life? Would you tell them that they can be whoever they want to be - just not around you? Would you tell them you can't love them? Would you tell them you still love them just not their "lifestyle"? THEN, when they commit suicide because their parents don't love them or accept them, what do you do? Do you THEN ask your God for forgiveness for not loving your child unconditionally? I hope then that your God kicks you in your ass.

"what evidence in his comment makes him a moron? Because you don't agree with it?"

Beevs, you poor misguided simpleton, I'll try to be more clear since your reading comprehension isn't particularly acute. I never called him a moron. I directly and distinctly avoided calling him a moron, even if the limited available evidence makes it a distinct possibility. I'm not aware that he expressed a coherent enough thought that I could even attempt to agree or disagree with one, but ranting wildly about man being fallen from a state of perfection seems to lack any understanding of the history of our species. That, however does not necessarily make him a moron, merely ignorant.

It shouldn't. It's still a destructive cult that, in this case, wants to weed out gays by making them "sin no more." They don't want to realize that it's straight people who bring gay people into the world.

Occasionally, gays have heterosexual sex too, sometimes for procreation, and sometimes for "what the hell" (The Birdcage).

dante-2807719 - I'm moved by their remarkable change in stance in such a short period of time

Not much of a change since they're still funding anti-gay hate groups like NOM, and still say that gays should be denied full civil rights.

All they've done is admitted what medical science has known for 50 years.

How is this a big deal? So they are saying that people don't choose to be gay, so that means they are gay by design if you believe in God's making everyone. So did he make them wrong or perhaps right and those who deny them rights (you know, the ones everyone else has) are wrong? If they are "made" gay then why would God want them to be alone, unhappy, and unfulfilled all their lives? Is that the God anyone wants to worship? You know, logically none of the argument makes sense. Unless they are saying that gays should be treated like anyone else who was born as s/he is then they haven't gotten very far.

Ram-"unless they are saying that gays should be treated like everyone else who was born"

Thats exactly what they are saying. See, in many churches eyes, all human beings are born with frailties, with desires to "sin". It is the churches view that, this itself does not make you evil, but rather the act is a problem. Lets face it, almost everyone is born with the urge to have sexual intercourse, but to do so outside of the bounds of marriage is considered a sin in most churches. The people who want to do them aren't inheritaly evil, but may fall to their desires.

The reason this is a step forward, is that many other churches see someone who is gay as evil or inherintly corrupt. Now the church says that the person is not evil, but simply the act is what they define as "sin".

If the LDS church wants to have that view, thats fine. I just have a problem when they stick their nose into political debates and try to restrict Civil rights based soley on their religeous beliefs. I wonder if that is something that will change also?

I agree. How egotistical to think God would create certain people just as a test for you.

@ Human: As I wrote in reply to an earlier post, it makes no less sense than the notion that god made other men's wives attractive to me but will still punish me for acting on that god-given attraction.

What I find remarkable about this story is that it is yet one more rather recent revelation to this so-called church telling them that a prior revelation was wrong. How many mulligans does the Mormon church get before people give up on it as a source of any valid divine revelation?

ron, unlimited mulligans just like every other religion. i believe another religion just DECIDED that the afterlife place known as limbo wasn't real anymore.

@ Human: As I wrote in reply to an earlier post, it makes no less sense than the notion that god made other men's wives attractive to me but will still punish me for acting on that god-given attraction.

The critical difference being that you have the option of a non-sinful outlet for your desires - a wife.

According to the LDS view, a homosexual does not have a non-sinful outlet for their desires - the only option is a lifetime of chastity. Pretty unreasonable in my opinion.

OK, McGee. Interesting point. They are both examples of senseless cruelty, it's just that one is more cruel. I can buy that.

Tell that to my girlfriend McGee!!!!

Agreed. They're still not even sure whether mixed-race marriage is OK.

Who's god? Which saviour? Do you know how many gods and saviours are out there? You can't discount one of them without discounting all of them.

@ The Beevs: Your argument doesn't work. You're trying to not blame god for the fact that people have immoral desires by blaming humans for being "broken." Well, who made the rules under which we are "broken"? And who "broke" us?

If this is your God, he’s not very impressive. He has so many psychological problems; he’s so insecure. He demands worship every seven days. He goes out and creates faulty humans and then blames them for his own mistakes. He’s a pretty poor excuse for a Supreme Being.

--Gene Roddenberry

So let me get this straight...god creates an imperfect product that is inherently flawed, but gets pissed when that product does not work the way he wants it to? Crackpot.

@ Human #12.4:

Now you're catching on.

@RonB: I don't expect you to believe as I do and I know that no matter how articulated I am in a comment you won't believe but let me share my opinion. I'm fine if you feel completely different.

You can probably already tell I'm going to refer to the beginning of creation. I don't take you for a fool - you know that I'm going to say that Adam and Eve were created in a perfect world without sin. It was when they CHOSE to disobey is when sin came into the world. (Romans 5:12) - You won't accept this because you obviously don't believe in the Christian God, and thats okay because it is your CHOICE.

Mankind broke itself. If you touch a hot stove and you get burned, do you curse GE's name for making that stove? I would hope not. I would hope that you feel people should be responsible for their own actions.

So then, you're telling me that god is powerless to change any of that? That there are rules that exist irrespective of god?

Hmmmm. I'd like to hear more.

Oh we get it. God made people and then said to them O.K you can eat of every tree but not this one which is the tree of Knowledge . God made humans so he should know that if you tell a human not to be curious and take from the one thing while everything else is O.K then that 's the one they will go for every time. What exactly is sin anyhow? And they were given free will but told how to use this will which is not free will . Then God condemned them to die sinners so they then needed a savior to even the score so they can have eternal life and in doing so everyone who accepts this can have ever-lasting life . All others will be sent to hell forever and ever. How am I doing so far? If I were to believe this I would voluntarily commit myself.

Interesting question in there, Clarice. One of the punishments for Eve's misbehavior is supposedly the pain of childbirth. But the savior missed that one when he "took away the sins of the world."

I'm sure that if GE could create a stove that wouldn't burn people when they touched it, they would. That's the difference, your god had that choice and refused. he created a creature that would be flawed and completely dependent on him but then looks down on that creature with disdain for being flawed and dependent. Truely crazy.

Why would a legitimate God want to forbid anyone from learning? I want my children to learn all they can in life...why would anyone who had his/her children's best interests at heart want to limit what they knew?

It is vexing how people process information they way they chose. Where in the bible does it say that Mormons and what they dictate is actually how God feels or what the BIBLE teaches. Truth is truth regardless of what Mormons or any other denomination teaches. Simply because a mormon says it, does not make it Truth. The purpose of the bible is for life instructions, not to pattern ones life after the choices of the characters. If lives were lost in the bible catastrophically, most likely it was due to their own culture of sin and those around them that brought the destruction about. Religion gets into ones business, simply to help save souls, help the ignorant become aware of their fate, give them necessary tools to help enrich their lives and decrease stress as well as improve their quality of life. It also gives them hope assurance and a guaranteed return on their investment. It is for their benefit. A world without discipline (self-discipline) first, will only bring destruction and ruin. People and their souls are much more important than a 15 minute over-glorified physiological reaction. You are better off being a crack-head.

Homosexuality is not a religion. We have freedom of faith...what you are experiencing is the effects of sexual freedom, beliefs and the practice thereof between two consenting adults - as long as money is not involved.

It isn't a sin. It's normal. Stop trying to impose your tastes on others. People have died, have been killed, over something that doesn't hurt you, doesn't even affect you.

Being gay is no more a sin than having brown skin or green eyes is a sin.

What is sinful? Forcing or coercing someone into sex. An adult pursuing sex with a child. Failing to disclose a relevant medical condition with a would-be partner. Breaking a promise made with a partner. Those are sinful. Sexual activities in private between fully informed and consenting adults are not inherently sinful.

dante-2807719 - I think a lot of you saying that this is some political ploy are missing the point.

I think we got the point - after the Prop h8 debacle the Mormons realized that their bigotry and hate has created a huge PR problem for themselves and the state of Utah, and now they're trying to appear less bigoted while still continuing to fund anti-gay hate groups, and still lobbying against legal marriage equality.

In other words, they're still dumb bigots.

So after a soul-searching and serious discussion they decided that people are born gay but shouldn't ever, ever love, have families, and should live alone? Okay, that sounds like a lovely life, and why should a gay person consider being Mormon again? That really isn't progress.

It doesn't really change that for them. They're still against acting on homosexuality and gay marriage. They just think gays need to change and live in unhappy hetero marriages.

Shaydie - you don't realize how true that is. A gay Mormon friend of mine stayed in his marriage for longer than he should have. He's separated from his wife and is living true to himself. He's still paying for the mission of one of his children and is unable to get out from the hole dug for him financially, even with him working 2 jobs.

Why should just us straight guys be stuck in unhappy hetero marriages?

I'm all for equality!

I agree. There are alot of people who will say (when confronted by a gay relative) - "Well, I love you. You're still my daughter, son, cousin, brother, whatever. I love you and will always love. I just don't agree with your 'lifestyle'". THAT is a cop out. It's talking out of the side of your mouth. It's sitting on a fence. It's naive because that person doesn't really understand homosexuality and is confused by all the crap his/her religion is throwing at them. Religion, as well as Government, needs to stay the heck out of our bedrooms.

This is what churches do: Condemn what they view as sin, but extend benevolence towards the sinner.

This is what churches do: Condemn what they view as sin, but extend benevolence towards the sinner.

the appearance of benevolence toward anyone they judge to be inferior to themselves.

There. FIFY.

Well, jan, I don't know if I would call it benevolence, actually. Insisting at the top of one's lungs over and over that anyone they feel is a sinner shouldn't be treated equally doesn't sound very benevolent to me.

You seem to leave two choices to religion.

1) scarlet letters with imposed social shunning

2) God loves everyone, there are no commandments or rules otherwise God would be limited in his love

Mormonism believes that God has prescribed correct laws associated with human sexuality. If you don't, that is really between you and God. You are basically throwing out scripture and any potential divine guidance except for that which you claim enlightens your own intelligence. Sounds pretty convenient. Your best bet is that God doesn't exist, otherwise your going to have to explain your position against His. Good luck with that.

These are the people who don't use caffeine because it's a drug. What do you think their stance might be?

I could honestly see that changing someday for them. It isn't mentioned in the Word of Wisdom. Utah has the highest rate of prescription drug abuse in the U.S. If a doctor prescribed it and it wasn't specifically mentioned in scripture or by the prophet, they'd take it. They wouldn't smoke it, though. Would have to be in pill form.

If I understand correctly, Mormons don't use nicotine, caffeine or alcohol because, at the time it made up those rules, those things were thought to be harmful to the body.

Of course, it's now pretty clear that a glass or two of wine per day is actually good for your health. But has this rule changed? No.

You have to wonder if the reason it hasn't changed is because there's no money for the church in changing that particular one.

They are the same people who use logic such as : We don't wear crosses around our necks because that would be the equivalent of wearing a noose around our neck in memory of someone who hanged himself. I kid you not. I heard it with my own ears!

why do you always take two mormons with you on a fishing trip? Because if you only take one he will drink all your beer

After having lived in Utah for almost 20 years and recently (and thankfully) having moved away, it was my experience that all of the Mormon 'rules' (caffeine, alcohol, tobacco, etc) were basically given lip service by 90% of the attending members. They'd act one way around each other and then totally different when they weren't being watched, just like the fishing joke from That's What's Up.

In the mid-90s I marched with about 250 others to protest the local small-town newspaper that had refused to run a few days of a certain comic strip (For Better Or Worse) because the storyline was sympathetic to gay people. There were over 2000 counter-protesters (in a very small town) and I was thunderstruck by the number of video cameras. I (not a Mormon) asked the person marching next to me (a Mormon) why anyone would want to video this type of march. The person next to me said, 'so they can bring the tape back to their bishop so that those of us in the parade will be punished.' True story.

Nothing has changed.

@Perry-951512

The LDS church's view on marijuana is that it is against the word of wisdom. Members who are using recreational marijuana cannot attend the temple (which serve different functions than churches do, temples are closed on Sundays) but they are still are welcomed to church and other events. Use of marijuana under doctor supervision is fine. This is found in the Handbook for Administering the church found on the LDS website (www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church) Section 21.3.11

@Kynetick:

The churches council on caffeine is to avoid any addictive substance. Other than that, caffeine is not against the word of wisdom and will not restrict you from the temple.

@rumjo:

We don't wear crosses because we prefer to focus on the resurrection of Christ instead of the crucifixion. Your ears have heard a source which is not credible. Here is a credible source: (www.lds.org/ensign/2005/04/the-symbol-of-our-faith)

@ktrav:

Every person is at a different place with their faith and belief so you will always find some person within any denomination who is not practicing what is preached. However most practicing Mormons do believe that following the word of wisdom is important outside of the time they are at church being watched. The Pew surveys anonymously asked this of members of the LDS faith and found that 49% found it not only important but also essential to their faith. (See www.pewforum.org/christian/mormon/mormons-in-america-executive-summary.aspx)

As far as the protest goes there little chance that this is why the video cameras were there. Your source probably jumped to their own conclusion. First I doubt that a bishop would set you down and punish you for participating in such a march. There are LDS members who march in the LGBT parade in Utah every year. Second the numbers don't add up. What are the chances that 'Fred' from 'ward A' happened to record one person in a group of 250 (let alone mingled with 2000) in Freds same ward who has their same bishop when there are over 4815 congregations (each with a different bishop) in the area? Why would 'Fred' of 'ward A' be wasting his day with such an activity? Brings up the whole 'beam in thy own eye' talk. Fourth, lets say the event was small enough to encompass say only 1 ward. You would only need one (or only a few) cameras. Not a number to be thunderstruck by.

And a couple of notes:

I use the temple as an example because a member of the LDS faith has to be living to the highest standards prescribed to hold a temple recommend and it allows us something to measure by. Smoking recreational marijuana may keep you from holding a temple recommend in the LDS faith, but defining if and how much of a sin it might be creates a sliding scale of measurement based on ones personal viewpoint.

The Word of Wisdom prohibits illegal and recreational drugs, alcohol, coffee and tea. I tend to prescribe to the idea that while there may be benefits in some ways to these items, there are also disadvantages. Thus why they are included in the Word of Wisdom.

Being gay isn't a sin. Being straight isn't a sin. Being bisexual, transsexual, or transgender aren't sins, either.

It's NORMAL HUMAN SEXUALITY, and it manifests in different ways through the population.

Grow up.

Love the sinner, not the sin.

Precisely.

As in, that's precisely how I feel about Mormons.

Again, a cop out. Being homosexual is not like being a murderer.

Jstein7 - Love the sinner, not the sin.

"I don't hate fags, it's my imaginary friend who hates fags."

I always laugh whenever I hear that one. Love....it has to be the most abstract definition of love in the universe.

C NJ Mom

The site includes an unusual statement for a major religious body: that sexuality, including same-sex attraction, is not a personal choice. But it maintains that acting on that attraction is still a "sin."

OK, so let me understand this: God made you gay, but being gay is OK as long as you don't act on your God-given urges to have sex with another of the same sex, and if you do, it's a sin. Huh!

It's almost like saying that God made you so you were attracted to sex with little children or wanting to rape women. But it's OK as long as you don't act on those urges because they are sins...

I would only add that there must be a clear distinction between what you're saying about rape and incest and that of consensual sex between two adults.

Rick,

What I am saying is that the Church of LDS still says despite it being OK to be gay, it is not acceptable for two people of the same sex to have sex - that to the CLDS, it is the equivalent of the sicko deviant behaviors like pedophilia and rape.

IMHO, if you're gay, you're gay. This has no effect on my life, my husband's life nor my son's life, and therefore is none of my business. Religion should just butt out when it comes down to what one, who is of majority age, does in his/her life and in his/her home.

And I'd like to see equality in marriage whether it's a marriage between a man and woman or two gay people.

This will be a real big pill to swallow for fundamentalist religions. For them, being gay has to be a choice. Because according to them God does not create sin.....All religions require you to swallow a certain sized pill......Mormons,....well some pills are a lot bigger than others.

Single heterosexual members of the church are expected to not act on their urges, too. Like it or not, God did set rules on sexual relationships. If I decide to willingly act on my urges and violate God's law, it is a sin.

Perhaps the title of this article only confuses things further. The web page does not say "sexuality is not a choice", it says people with same sex attraction do not choose those feelings. It is a huge extrapolation to state that the LDS church is accepting that people are born gay. They are clarifying that whether it is nurture or nature, the feelings of attraction are not a choice. The reaction to them is.

A pornographic picture may grab my attention, but it is my choice to grab or not to grab the magazine from the rack.

I might find another man's wife attractive. Acting on that assessment will get me in trouble.

The LDS church didn't change their policy on homosexuality, they created a website to clarify to LDS and non-LDS what the official position of the church is. The intent of the website seems particularly aimed to LDS individuals that are so uncomfortable with the topic that they behave in unacceptably unchristian ways towards them.

For those that don't believe in God, the whole thing is probably silly. For those who believe in God, but have no problem bending and folding commandments into a more convenient and flexible format, they will see themselves superior in their understanding.

Hopefully this clarifies some things. Too many of the comments are dealing with the inconsistency between the implications of the title, and the message on the website.

@ L in Seattle-

LDS always bring that up as if it somehow makes the LDS Church's position make sense. It doesn't.

Sex for straight people in the LDS Church is only bad if it's before marriage. It's a matter of timing. Otherwise sex is fine— and even promoted because, well, it makes Mormon babies.

Sex is never acceptable for gay people unless it is with someone of the opposite sex. There is no way for them to be authentic and honest to their sexuality, and to be accepted as Mormon at the same time. The comparison to straight sex before marriage is a strawman argument because if this were only about marriage it could be easily remedied by making gay marriage legal. Right? Gays could get married and then have sex.

Truth is, in Mormonism gay sex is never OK. And by association many Mormonism feel the same about gay people. Truthfully I can't understand why any gay person would stay LDS. It would bad enough to have your sexual orientation called a perversion— but then to only be seen as acceptable if you choose a life of celibacy. Wow.

Well LDSRevelations, plenty of people remain celibate and manage to live just fine. The reason people remain LDS if they are gay is because they have had a spiritual experience that proves to them that the LDS church is the Lord's church. You don't have to believe it, but when it happens it is undeniable. God himself has ordained marriage between a man and a woman. Not any other way. He knows why. This article is about how the church is reaching out to gays and wanting to help them. The article simply states that being gay is not a choice. But, they didn't say anything else about it really. However, to other points, you need a man and a woman to create a child. If everyone was gay then there would be no children without help from modern medicine. Therefore, then, homosexuality is not normal as it would produce no offspring without scientific help. The whole race would die out. Mother nature or God takes care of that by making men and women the only way to create a baby. You can't deny that.

Homosexuality - a mockery of christian principles and marriage. Go visit a farm/ranch and observe nature of animal life. It is all heterosexual, and human beings are part of the animal world. Homosexuality is a choice. What is normal of a homosexual man sexually having anal sex with another man?

Dennis-655907

Homosexuality is a choice. What is normal of a homosexual man sexually having anal sex with another man?

I don't know how often you brush your teeth Dennis, makes no difference to me. But some people like to brush their teeth; sometimes once a day, sometimes twice a day; some are even addicted and brush and even floss multiple times every day. Some people think brushing their teeth is great, some people hate brushing their teeth. It's America. Floss or rot makes no difference what you do to yourself from my perspective. I don't care about their oral interests, their anal interests, their vaginal interests or any other orofice or appendage interests.

And I've also never seen a beaver using a toothbrush in the animal world. Does that make it abnormal for me to choose to brush my teeth as often or as infrequently as I'd like? After all, that kind of behavior certainly does not take place in the wild. And have you ever seen a Tampon? Do you know what women do with those? Can't imagine a chipmunk trying to struggle with something like that.

Dennis 655907....it is completely normal ( the homosexual lifestyle) because there is no good thing in the flesh. If we all were to do whatever the Desires and Lusts of our Flesh dictated we would be even deeper in That Pit of Debauchery than we already are. Bottom Line is This:

Homosexuality is not Who You Are but rather Its What You Do.
Every living thing on this planet Reproduces. We always have the Choice of choosing Life or Death. It's just that simple. Choose life. No matter what it is in life....what you eat, drink, watch, read, participate in- it will either lead to more abundant life or Death. Choose Life

@rick'sreal...hmmm, you are comparing brushing your teeth with the abnormality of homosexual...OK I dont know what is your point here with this comparison...Does it have something to do with choices???

I think Mormons are just like a lot of other Christians. And I could see why a lot of them would be republicans. They just seem to want to change the rules to fit what they want to do. I agree that according to the Bible that homosexuality, abortion are wrong, just as getting drunk, telling lies, are wrong. However, I think one thing that is really really overlooked is how you are to treat others who are homosexuals, have abortions, etc. A Christian is supposed to treat them as they would like to be treated themselves. And I wonder sometimes if God places these people in our lives to see how Christian we really are or not. When we mistreat them, we are not doing what God wants us to. And to top that off in our last election, Paul Ryan professed he went into politics because of atheist Ayn Rand. He liked and still likes what she stood for. And last time I looked atheism is not a forgivable sin. So to me you take a homosexual running for office and Paul Ryan. As a Christian I would vote for the homosexual. Many have not quite figured that out yet. And I am still stunned because Ronald Reagan appointed Alan Greenspan, another atheist supporter (read his book) to be chairman of the fed reserve for 25 years. Amazing! He is definitely not the person I thought he was - Reagan that is. I believe that God blesses people so that they can be a blessing to others. Some just haven't figured it out. We are to help others not insult them and say they are lazy and stupid.