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Subscribe to RSSMIAMI -- A Festivus pole made of beer cans has been installed at a large South Florida intersection, just a few feet away from Baby Jesus.
Deerfield Beach activist blogger Chaz Stevens wanted to express his nonreligious beliefs, so he cited his adherence to the made-up holiday celebrated on a famous episode of the 1990s sitcom “Seinfeld,” the South Florida Sun Sentinel reports.
The holiday was touted in an episode as a "Festivus for the rest of us!" Character Frank Costanza puts up the totem of the holiday, an unadorned aluminum pole, in protest of Christmas' commercialism.
With permission from the city, Stevens on Thursday assembled his metallic pole, consisting of 23 beer cans, at Hillsboro Boulevard and Federal Highway, the newspaper said. Stevens put the pole about six feet from a Nativity scene, which he for years unsuccessfully tried to have the city take down.
"Think of how many people have died over the years to give us our freedoms," Stevens told the Sun Sentinel. "So I've got to push back a little."
Also on NBCMiami.com: Millionaire asks Santa For "Latina Girlfriend" via billboard
A city attorney declined to comment.
One key ritual of Festivus is accusing others of being a disappointment, known as an airing of grievances.
Over the years, Festivus has been cited in protests across the country.
One case occurred in 2010, when a convicted drug dealer invoked the holiday to get better meals in a California jail. The inmate disliked the jail’s salami meals, so he used his Festivus devotion to get kosher meals reserved for inmates with religious needs.
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Good heavens, I hope we Christians can get a laugh out of this one! Festivus is hysterical - who doesn't enjoy a sanctioned Airing of the Grievances? Perhaps people of religious belief can disarm those like Mr. Stevens by laughing with him, and then offering with humility that Jesus came into the public sphere 2,000 years ago with no fanfare, no coercive authority, just a poor family bearing a child by the roadside. But many, many of us have found hope in that Christmas news.
"Stevens put the pole about six feet from a Nativity scene, which he for years unsuccessfully tried to have the city take down."
Now ISN'T that the Liberal Democrat way? If you disapprove of others' traditions, rather than respect and have some tolerance for them, you try to destroy them.
What a loser.
Everyone is welcome to their fantasies, but it can be useful to acknowledge that regardless of our mythologies, no one has any idea when or where Jesus was born, what he looked like, what his mother looked like, what her, ahem, romantic history included, nor how he spent his first 20+ years, assuming there actually was such a fellow. We do know that for many centuries the winter solstice was celebrated with great festivals of various sorts, before Christian leaders co-opted it for Jesus' birthday (I admit, there is a 1 in 365 chance they got it right). Whatever. A peaceful and responsible party is always a good thing. Happy Whatever Everyone!
Atheists discovering the first amendment are like sixth graders discovering the F word.
They don't know how to use it and make asses of themselves while trying.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Happy...whatever doesn't offend you.
A Festivus pole made of beer cans raises some theological and sociological issues for contemporary American society: e.g., are all of the beer cans a single brand (monotheism) or multiple brands of beer (polytheism)? Are any of the beer cans Corona, Tecate, Dos Equis or other Mexican brand (raising the possibility of illegal alien beers); were the beers bought with food budget savings because of the availability of food stamps?
Perhaps it would be better to avoid the controversy, next year, and forget the unadorned Festivus Pole altogether and just focus on the other great traditions of Festivus such as wrestling and other feats of strength and the airing of grievances!
;-)
Surely that could, Rev. Dave, but that would make too much sense. The zealots would much, much rather get indignant at him, shout him down, have him arrested, etc. etc. etc....
Atheism is a lack of belief in any religion. It is not an antireligous political/social movement. Neither is the democratic party. Please stop with the persecution complex every time some load mouth complains about your religious advertisements.
RWNJ Translator: "We have the right to express our beliefs, and you have the right to shut up and go along with it--or else."
Tell you what, Arthur, you show them some respect and tolerance. Hint: declaring "we are a Christian Nation (tm) and all atheists hate Amurka and are goin' straight to hell" doesn't count as respect...
i'm agnostic, don't give a crap. the miltant athiests and the bible beaters are exactly alike, acting like children throwing a tantrum, professing their "beliefs" (because for both sides, it is nothing but belief) at the top of their lungs and trying to shout down the other. if it doesn't affect you, in a materialistic and tangible way, then why do you care so much about what others think?
@BD-540164
Hear, hear!
Hey Arthur, how the heck do you know if he was a liberal democrat? I hate when people like you put politics in it as if the religious angle wasn't enough, or that only right wing people believe in Christmas.
Your ilk is why I left the right and became an independent. Do you know that we are the ONLY country where the right-wing equates to Christians? If you understand Jesus message, you can see why it makes more sense for Christains to be leftwing.
I do not practice any religion since childhood, and do not believe in the bible stories except as a parts of history exaggerated. I cannot see how anyone can believe it as it makes no sense to me on so many levels.
That being said, I still celebrate Christmas and disagree with anyone wanting to remove Christ from Christmas or taking down any nativities or Christmas symbols. IF you don't celebrate it, ignore it!
I celebrate Halloween too, but don't believe in ghost or goblins either, but don't make people take down jack-o-lanterns.
People should have there traditions and let us stop being so mean to each other.
Christmas is a celebration of a Christian holiday but it seems everyone wants to get in on the act and put their own spin on it OR have any reminder of it removed all together.
That's fine.
All in favor of these ideas please make sure that you work all day until quitting time December 24th and go in for a full work day December 25th. If paid any extra holiday money (overtime, holiday time, Christmas bonuses) from your employer, please make sure to return it. Keeping the funds would be unethical and I just know that everyone here has very high standards to maintain.
Please abstain from eating any of the food that co-workers may bring in celebration of the holiday and refuse any gifts presented to you by friends, family, etc.
Any mail coming in obviously Christmas oriented, mark as "return to sender" on the envelope and leave for your postman to pick up. That would include the nice check(s) / package(s) you get every year from family members.
I choose to celebrate the day designated for the birth of my Risen Savior. And just for the record, I work every single Christmas by choice to allow co-workers with children to enjoy the holiday.
MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!!!
Saint Chefaz - has a nice ring to it!
Must we wait for a posthumous canonization? Can your acolytes provide us with any sacred relics - nose hair, navel lint, a grubby old T-shirt, anything. Please? We want to be as sanctimonious as you. . .
Conjuring cat - to some extent you are correct. If we equally apply the first amendment, I get to say what I believe and you get to say what you believe. It appears however, that there are both Christians and Atheists who want to say, I get to say what I believe and you get to shut up. It is equally disrespectful for Atheists to say that because they don't believe in any God therefore it must be illegal to display any reverence for God in the public square.
Chefaz - You provide an interesting commentary. I would suggest though that there are, at least in the US, two Christmas holidays. There is the religious holiday and the secular holiday. Just as the early Christians co-opted earlier pagan holidays, the larger society has co-opted Christmas as a symbol of several things; some of them "good" (hope, end-of-the-year celebration) and some not so "good" (commercialized gift giving, overindulgence in food).
If we are truly Christian, we will care little about what the larger society has done with the secular holiday. For us, Christmas remains the celebration of the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ and in this great nation we are free to celebrate that event with people who believe as we believe. What we as Christians should take from Christmas is our obligation to share "our" meaning of Christmas (hope, peace, good will) with everyone around us whether they believe as we do or not.
Darde, we will, thanks for caring.
Merry Christmas to all.
Think how many people have died over the years from drunk driving! Stevens wants to glorify drunk drivers by putting up a pole of beer cans. Im sure the Dallas Cowboys are grieving today and would not appreciate this beer pole.
Use your GOD given common sense dude!
MERRY CHRISTMAS CHEF!!
I'm sorry but I'm an atheist AND a liberal. One has nothing to do with the other so enough with the f*cking dumbass political bull@!$%# in every goddamn post. (language added for emphasis)
I have no problem with Nativity scenes. It's a beautiful tradition. So don't try and paint everyone with the same brush just because some ass clown decided a Nativity scene offends his non religious ass.
Eric the Well Read... I usually enjoy your posts, however, your comment of...
Basically, there is no need for name-calling. I do not believe Chefaz is trying for sainthood as you try to belittle him with the "sanctimonious" title. If the Chef wants to work Christmas, then that is his right to offer it so other employees can enjoy the holiday with their families.
As for the delightful ceremonies that include gifts et alia, do you receive any? If you have, and degrade the ceremony, then you are a hypocrite with your verbosity. A personal opinion that Chefaz presented was critical (and I would say the same) based on the hypocrisy of those who receive the benefits, yet decry the beliefs of others in doing so.
You can believe anything you want to and so may others.
JUST ME: It always irks me when people say how the Christians "co-opted" the solstice celebrations. First of all, NO ONE OWNS the solstice. It happens around the world. For everyone. #2. The solstice is usually Dec. 21. Christmas Day is Dec. 25. #3. No one forbade any other celebrations of the solstice. Christians simply had their OWN solstice celebration for reason #4.. Christians chose December 25, because the solstice marks the lengthening of days, more daylight, so Christians chose that date to celebrate and commemorate Jesus's birth, Jesus being the light of the world. (See the connection there..LIGHT..symbolic? ) No one knows the exact date of His birth, but the time of year that it is being celebrated coincides with the solstice for the reasons I mention.
Why some athiests feel the need to crusade against ANY religion or religious symbols that are meaningful to that religion, and hurts NO ONE, I'll never figure out. I don't care if one puts up a Festivas Pole, or a Mennorah or any other symbol. I respect their right to do that. Religious symbols of any faith are not displayed for any other reason than for its members and faithful to commemorate and celebrate their beliefs and traditions. The Festival Pole itself does not offend me, but it does offend me because it was put up TO OFFEND. It's the motive that offends me. Jesus's message was PEACE...so who in their right mind would want to turn that into a "war" on the man who delivered that message and asked that of everyone. I personally think Festivas is fun, hilarious. Why make it a weapon?
“Because you can't argue with all the fools in the world. It's easier to let them have their way, then trick them when they're not paying attention.”
― Christopher Paolini
Conjuring Cat, people who feel offended when someone deliberately offends them are acting like one would expect people to act, not abnormally, not like crazies. And people not subscribing to your rather odd logic do not rate your general smear calling them zealots.
In another 1000 years, after civilization has collapsed, the descendants of today's atheists will find themselves kneeling before a pole decorated with old beer cans praying to their god, Bud and his son, Bud Light.
Simply stated, from a secular standpoint, the placement of the "beercan pole" is vandalism. The Nativity is zoned and approved, and the beercan pole is not, and should be removed and the vandals be charged.
Even as an Atheist, I enjoy the festivities. The nativity is a celebration of the winter solstice and the rebirth of the year. The baby Jesus in a bed of hay is a metaphor of the miracle of birth, rich or poor.
The bible is a work of literature from ancient cultures. I can admire it and criticize it from a modern point of view Christmas is a timeless holiday. Let's enjoy it as it is, and not sabotage spirit of the holiday.
So your "obligation" is to preach even if someone doesn't want to hear your preaching.
Then you'll get all offended when someone tells you to take your preaching and stuff it, or they wish to express their opinion on beliefs.
How do you think christmas got where it is today? By preachers feeling "obligated" to "share" (impose) their view of the season until the original reasons for a winter celebration were exterminated.
Get it through your heads.....not everyone wants to be saved!! It's your god and your hell...you're welcome to them both.
The guy is a hater. I protest that he has a right to incite hatred.
UMMMM.......Let's get this straight, CHRISTMAS.....FYI arguesforsport...got where it is today because of the BIRTH OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!! NOT because of any Santa Claus...the 'commercial' version of Christmas!!! Like it or not....the ORIGINAL reason for this winter celebration is HIS birth!! Neither you nor any of your atheist side kicks can change this. Go celebrate whatever it is you want....I personally don't give a hoot...I along with MANY others WILL continue to celebrate CHRISTmas in the way it began...celebrating the Birth of JESUS CHRIST!!!!! The ORIGINAL reason for this winter holiday, as you call it, will NEVER be exterminated!!! I along with all the many Christians have a right to our beliefs and just as you do...have a right to express them! If you don't like them...then don't read them. Nuff said!! Merry CHRISTmas to you and yours!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Christmas like most holidays is there because Christians hijacked a pagan holiday and took it over.
I really don't care what imaginary friend you have and let control you. So long as I am free not to be controlled by religious leaders and imaginary friend in the sky, you are free to be controlled by those things and I would never argue that you shouldn't be free to do so. The problem is that by demonizing atheists you have put them on the defense, and many are just reacting.
What the country needs is less antagonists and Anti-religious zealots.
If Jesus Christ really wanted you to celebrate his birth wouldn't he have told us what his birthday is?
Exactly! This is why I don't celebrate Christmas, but I'm a Christian. The Bible only talks about observing the
memorial of his death. That has real meaning.
Santa Claus was an actual figure--there was a toymaker in an Eastern European village who carved toys for children who were good throughout the year but whose parents were too poor to reward them with toys. He made them toys and gave them out on Solstice night. The figure grew legendary then the legend spread all over the world with the immigration of Eastern Europeans, and the tradition of giving toys to good poor children has been adopted in practically every country around the planet.
The original reason for the celebration on Yule/Solstice Night/Midwinter was the 12-day pagan festival of Yule--it was originally the one day if the year when the day was shortest and night was longest. It was on Dec 21 and was also the original day the year ended (before Julius Caesar changed time calculation to the Julian calendar, and then Pope Gregory changed it to the Gregorian calendar, which we still use today.) Because it was Midwinter, the idea started of bringing food to share and gifts to exchange with those who might otherwise not have enough to last them until the spring. It was a celebration of the Longest Night and the beginning of the lengthening of days which heralded the return of spring, and planting and growing seasons. Countries who still use the Julian Calendar celebrate Christ's birth in January.
Us pagans were around well before Christianity was even founded. For Christians, the celebration of Christ's birth is one of your most important religious holidays so you held yours right next to our most important holiday; the birth of a new year. As Christianity rose to prominence (originally through conquest of discovered peoples) and elimination of those who didn't agree with you (the Inquisition) and destruction of other cultures' historically significant artifacts, statues, and 'holy places' gradually your festival rose to prominence althouh symbols of the origin of the holiday still remain; the song '12 Days of Christmas' is one, as is the old designation 'Yule' and the tradition of a Yule log.
Historic evidence points to Jesus not actually having been born December. The 'star' that guided the wise men to the place where Jesus lay, in the Bible, could have been a supernova or comet and there was no astronomical phenomena in December of 1 AD. However, in March/April of 7 AD a supernova appeared in the constellation of Capricorn, was visible in the sky for 70 days, then faded.
And 'shepherds' would not be 'watching their flocks by night in the fields' in December--it would have been in one of the warmer months, not the colder ones. In colder months the sheep would be returned to a sheepfold/or barn so that they could stay warm, and so could the shepherd. During the colder months more predators (wolves and such) would be out looking for an easy meal and it made more sense to return sheep to the fold.
Celebrate the holiday for whatever reason you want. That's not going to change. The Conbstitution of the US gives you the right to call this holiday whatever you want--just as I am free to cal this 'Yule' per my beliefs. It is a free country and there is room enough for all.
The original reason for the celebration--the days getting longer and the return of warmer weather, thus being able to plant and grow food--will never change either.
To me, the compulsion to criticize or degrade someone else's beliefs indicates self doubt of one's one supposed beliefs.
John Raymound.... You sure hit the nail on the head, Thank You!
Charles the Hammerhead,
It's not vandalism if you have permission.
Why don't we all lighten up a bit, and just believe what we wish to believe? Is it really so important to assert with certitude the correctness of our own beliefs, and impose those beliefs on others who choose to believe differently? Is arrogance supposed to be a Christmas tradition, too?
We don't have to analyze whether this tradition had its origin in paganism, or if that observation was borrowed from the Winter solstice, or if we celebrate in the correct month, or on the right day, or if there actually was a real person archetype for 'Santa Claus,' ...etc., etc., ad nauseam. Why does one person's personal beliefs - however they may differ from your own - matter to you or anyone else?
Like it or not, Christmas in America - regardless of the origins of the traditions - has become a celebration of retail commerce. And most of us would agree that regardless of our own personal beliefs our American economy can certainly use the boost!
So celebrate long and celebrate well, each in your own way and with your own traditions and meanings. The bottom line is "the bottom line."
PS. As my Jewish cousin-in-law reminds me each year at this time: "Christmas is actually a Jewish holiday. Who do you think owns the department stores?"
;-)
Cheers!
Actually, that is the original reason for the celebration of Yule..whatever. December 25th and the traditional day of Christmas celebration has nothing to do with your pagan festivals. I know the competition for attention must really bum out the pagans, but there you have it.
Banging the gong over the Springtime birth of Jesus vs. Wintertime birth, and the origins of the Santa Claus fiction is all so boring (yawn) and every year, gets hashed over again and again and again. Nothing changes. It's not complicated. For Christians, we celebrate the plan of God that brought His Son to earth on the same day that pagans celebrate their Santa Claus and the shortest day and the leafless trees and the shape of snowflakes, even as they dance naked in the frigid cold to the rising sun. (There, I gave you the sole point for responding. I'll give you the start; "We don't dance naked in the frigid cold..")
Those who have been made alive to God through faith in Jesus Christ and the miracle of regeneration know that in this season, we emphasize that which we honor all year long; Jesus. We could do Christmas in April, and really, who keeps it in December if it was such a violation to have it on 12/25? Is it not the commercial interests? Is it not tradition?
Levi, read some history. The early Christian church, which later became the Catholic Church, specifically decided to celebrate Jesus's birth, his death, and various other holidays at the same time as when the Pagans celebrated their holidays with the sole purpose of converting, one way or the other, the Pagans to Christianity. This is a well-known historical fact.
Well done Grieving mom and Levi. You've managed to make yourselves look like absolute know nothings. You attempted to a respond to a comment and instead jump into preaching mode.
@Amanda - Well said.
Misscreant, to fill out your statement, it actually was initiated when Constantine, the Emperor of Rome, made Christianity the official state religion in 312 A.D. then went around enforcing it by conqeuring other lands.
Chris, sit down and read while you go to school and keep your yap shut if you have nothing of susbtance to offer.
Misscreant, Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this earth. If it were, My servants would fight." He said this to Pontius Pilate, when Pilate said, "So, You're a King?" So what right did Constantine, the Catholic church have to force conversion in the name of Christ? I'll tell you. Absolutely NONE! And if they had their way they'd do the same thing today. God's response to the failure of Catholicism to change their ways was the Protestant Reformation.
Now, when the Protestants left the Catholic church, and the Pilgrims sailed on their boats to the new world, leaving behind the similar abuses of church of England, they carried some traditions with them. Among them was the Christmas celebration.
Hijacked? Yes
Even stolen? No. Who owns the day?
Invalid? Not at all
God deals with faith, and the attitudes of people's hearts. So if in this season people such as myself choose to honor God and Jesus Christ for Jesus's birth, then I don't think you really have much to say about it, now do you.
And straight up, I understand what it is to have a Christmas that only entails the lie of Santa Clause, Grandpa getting drunk on egg nog and falling into the Christmas tree, and getting school clothes for Christmas. I know all that. That's a secular Christmas. And it never became the absolute blessing that it is today until I was reconciled to God through faith in Jesus Christ. Then it became all a matter of the heart, and if I never had another Christmas tree, or another decoration, or another present, I could be okay with that. I have Jesus, born of a virgin....
Levi, you have every right to celebrate Christmas how you see fit, but you also have to realize that so does everyone else. I never said you do not have the right to do that, nor did I disparage you or your beliefs, but, in turn, you have to accept that not everyone is Christian, not everyone celebrates Christmas, and that many people celebrate other holidays this time of year. Those things do not somehow invalidate your beliefs.
Son, I'm 39, retired Navy and I 've seen a lot more of this world, both the bad and the good than you will ever know. The only schooling needed around here is to teach you when to cease flapping those lips. I don't want to hear about your God, or his son every time you open your mouth. Keep that to yourself and find someplace else to evangelize.
retired Navy at 39? Former US Army Ranger, here. Thank you for your service (I mean that sincerely)
I celebrate Christmas because of Jesus and I do it from the heart. If you can't stand that, and can't stand me talking about it, I'm sure no one does it in China, at least not openly. And they certainly don't in Gaza, Syria, and certain neighborhoods in Lebanon. Feel free to jump ship there.
Misscreant, thank you. I agree with your statement 100 percent. There are plenty of those however (glance at Chris) who want to issue a gag order, tell me I'm going to hell for celebrating Christmas, that I have no right to celebrate Christmas because it was stolen from the pagans, and on and on. I know these things are usually hammered out every year, but this year it seems to be worse. I don't care. As I said, people can dance naked to the winter sun, I don't care. Me and my house, we celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, born in the Spring, celebrated in the Winter, adored all year round.
GM Fed.
Brilliant point and funny that this wasn't caught by those who approved the display. Surprising that MADD hasn't had something to say since this time of the year brings even more who drive impaired. Drink (or what ever you like to do) all you want - just please designate a driver, spend the night or use a taxi service.
GM jack.
Thanks so much for the vote of confidence. You really "got it" and you said it with so much more eloquence than I could muster. I owe you one!!! :)
GM Levi.
As always, insightful, interesting and to the point. Never get tired of reading your great posts and always learn something. Good to see you here.
Have a great day all.
Nativity scenes, as well as all other religious depictions, have no place on public property. If someone wants to put one up on private land, that is there right, but having them on public land should not be allowed. To do so would require that anyone else could put up whatever display they wanted that depicted their personal beliefs and this could turn public spaces into eyesores. To allow one display and not others would amount to an endorsement, or at least a move against certain beliefs which would be a violation of the constitution.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Happy...whatever doesn't offend you.
Precisely, elliot, which is why the Festivus pole stays up. Unless you only want certain religions (coughcoughconservativeChristianitycoughcough) to have the right to make displays on public land...
Sounds good JS.. We should deface the Lincoln Memorial, Library of Congress, White House, and all other public places where the mention of God exists. Burn past presidential speeches. We should also change the Pledge of Allegiance, remove the religious symbols from our money (both mention of God and Pagan symbols), use white-out of the Declaration of Independence, and strike in the year of Our Lord from the US constitution. Even the Statue of Liberty was based off the Greek goddess Hera, so bring it down! Tolerance of religion in public places should be abolished.
can the festivus pole go up at the county court house, next to the cross, the star of david, whatever the muslims use. we can celebrate everyone's diversity, instead of throwing tantrums over who's "rights" are most important?
Overreact much, Mike? The point is that if you allow sectarian displays on public spaces, you must allow all sects access to that public space. Or do only certain sects get the honor and the rest have to just go pound sand?...
Cat.. Not over reacting at all.. my point being when one (JS) says they have NO place then they should think about what they are saying. Often lack of tolerance is reserved for Christian symbols only. People can stick up others and few have a word to say about it.
As far as the pole, I think it represents the US well. We are a society that worships alcohol and willingly sacrifice our lives and 10's of millions of dollars to it a year, so I could care less if it stays up.
Conjuring cat - You are absolutely correct. I don't recall though any stories about Christians demanding that the symbols of other religions be taken down. It seems all we ever read about is atheists demanding the removal of Christian symbols. I would be happy to see a display in the public square that represents all religious faith traditions and have the opportunity to share with others how our diverse beliefs compare and frequently seek the same outcomes. It seems to me that many atheists want to tear down, not build up. What's with that??
In NYC and even DC we see state-sponsored Christmas trees. In NYC a big menorah is erected yearly and its lighting is a big deal. Why are some of these people complaining about stuff, artifices, trinkets, what ever you prefer, things the majority not only tolerates but wants put up with their money on their commons. When these professional nay-sayers reach majority status they will be able to stop this. Until then, let then and theirs not even clebrate the holidays.
Conjuring cat, what logic demands that you must allow all religions if you allow one? In this area, numbers count.
@Elliot- Your quote is awesome but you seemed to have misunderstood it. Yes, the government cannot prohibit your expression of your religion. That does not give you the right to use public property to express your beliefs. By allowing one or two religions to use PUBLIC property (paid for by ALL taxpayers) to endorse their religion the government is in effect endorsing a religion(s). The only fair way to handle this is to not allow any religion to be endorsed on government property. Quite simply (as your quote demonstrates) the government shouldn't be involved in religion period. I'm an atheist and I love xmas decorations (their pretty and I like myths...don't have to believe them). Put them all over the place!!!! Just not on government property. It is so simple a child could understand it.
I know where the festivus pole should go.
Its public property not government property... sheesh welcome to the USA comrade.
I'm just sharing the text. I have no problem with what he is doing, I have a problem with what he did (trying to get nativity scenes removed).
Freedom of religion not freedom from religion. Otherwise we would make all publicly elected people renounce their religion, or only be able to elect atheists.
Merry...whatever doesn't offend you.
Public property should also not be adorned or have any aesthetics, as they are an unnecessary expense. Trees, grass, fountains or frivolous additions of any kind are not to be supplied. Furniture and equipment should only be bought for basic needs. Cleaning and maintenance should also be done by employees like every other business. Do not support sloth in government.
elliot, freedom from religion is implicit in freedom of religion.
So people need to hide their religion from sensitive sallys like you?
I'm not religious nor atheist, I just don't care what you do with your life.
What if it wasn't religion? What if it was art that we couldn't let bother anyone else? I only accept Bob Ross paintings, anything else offends me and is harming my first amendment right to not have your expression pushed upon me.
Do you see how that crap works?
Grow the hell up and live your own damn life.
elliot, if we all need to grow up and live our own damn lives, why do you get to be so upset over the Festivus Pole?
I support Festivus, I'm not even religious, just pro liberty.
I was rasied Christain. I still hold some Christianic views and I have my own faith, and I think this is great! It needs to be recognized that not everyone is Christain, there is a multitude of religious holidays around this time other than Christmas, and that plenty of people celebrate Christmas, or X-mas as some say, as a cultural, rather than religious, holiday.
Misscreant - It is a shame that while you were being raised Christian that you weren't taught to spell it correctly. Also what are "Christianic" views as opposed to simply Christian views?
Baby Jesus getting angry...
I am very offended by the Festivus Pole being made out of beer cans - everyone should know that the Festivus Pole is "made from aluminum with a very high strength-to-weight ratio".
The person who put this up should be forced to remove that monstrosity and put up a proper Festivus Pole for all to enjoy.
Well-said, Rob. I had not considered that this was an unorthodox expression of Festivus.
Maybe he's into Reformed Festivusism...
Looks like this guy managed to mock the first amendment, as well as religious expression itself, by his sophomoric action!
This is exercise of the first amendment, not mocking.
No, you see, Holly, only "Christians" are allowed the First Amendment. No one else gets to use it without their permission...
it is mocking, or he wouldn't have put it up nearby. any moron can see that. but it is his right, just as the right of the church people to put up their stuff. shame everyone has to act like children...
Fair enough, BD. I think Rev. Dave in his first post hit the proverbial nail on the head; just have a nice cleansing laugh and get over it...
Thomas - He's not mocking the first amendment, he's using the first amendment. He may or may not be intending to mock Christianity but remember, a little mocking every once in a while helps keep up humble. Something your namesake would know.
I can't wear a shirt that says F$$k you, does that mean my first amendment rights are being abridged?
bob - Why do you think you can't you wear a shirt that says F$$k you?
Obscenity laws. There are reasons to temper societal behavior. The purpose of a norm in society is for continuity. When you deviate by allowing some to be abnormal, who decides what is and isn't normal? Pandora's box is more than just a mythological tale. It is a warning.
I only ask bob because I've seen the f-bomb on shirts several times and there wasn't a SWAT team in sight.
Then if a law is broken when no one is around. Did the law get broken? Eerily sounds like what congress does on their break doesn't it?
I see no problem with this. The problem becomes when people are EXCLUDED because of their religion or lack of one, not when other belief systems are allowed to be expressed.
Who was excluded?
If you have no religion how can you be excluded?
I'm not even Christian, but just put up my "Christmas" tree today. Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus any more. The US is a country where the carpenters are on food stamps and the money changers are fat and happy. Packed malls at Christmas and fighting over toys is not in the Bible AFAIK.
Darius - Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus anymore FOR YOU. It has everything to do with Jesus FOR ME and others like me. Merry Christmas.
Historically Carpenters have always been poor and bankers have always been rich, Maybe the carpenters should try another line of work if they do not like being poor.
Before you shoot from the lip, you should look up the Bureau of Labor Statistics figures for the average lifetime earnings of a carpenter compared to the average lifetime earnings of someone with a Bachelor's Degree. (Disclaimer: I am a carpenter)
hi bill, I am also a carpenter, actually I am a contractor, I learned all the trades and do all equally well, I refuse to pay someone to do something I can do and most times do better, But I have one question...define carpenter as classified by the BoLS, Are they describing those in the Commercial Carpenters union who mostly do form work for commercial buildings or are they describing those who are Residential Union and do residential work, Or are they describing the average guy who works for a contractor. Now about the degree thingy...I never went to college and although I have often wondered what my life would be like if I had gone to college I have no misgivings about where I am in my life, I am not a millionaire but I am successful, I served 2 tours in Viet Nam and even that part of my life has given me memories and life skills that I am thankful for.
Now as far as this guy with his beer can Festivus tree, Although he has every right to put it there I think he is a jerk, Most likely he never celebrated Festivus in his life and he did this out of spite simply because he did not like the Nativity scene and got tired of trying to have it removed and losing.
47-2031 Carpenters
Construct, erect, install, or repair structures and fixtures made of wood, such as concrete forms; building frameworks, including partitions, joists, studding, and rafters; and wood stairways, window and door frames, and hardwood floors. May also install cabinets, siding, drywall and batt or roll insulation. Includes brattice builders who build doors or brattices (ventilation walls or partitions) in underground passageways
My point exactly. I am actually a commercial construction superintendent, and successful. I have a degree in math and computer science, but never found an entry-level job in those fields that pays half of what a good superintendent makes. One tour in RVN was enough for me.
Agreed.
Unlike the activist atheists, this guy has a sense of humor and I appreciate it. Christians have no problem with this kind of display. My problem is all the public land that is reserved for the atheist religion. Everywhere I look, there is no display of any kind. This expresses preference for the Atheists that believe in nothing.
50% of public lands should be reserved for religious displays other than atheism.
I am pretty sure atheism is not a religion
CdB, these kinds of "atheists" - the ones who seek to destroy Christian traditions - are just as fanatical as any religious group's members.
You have the right to non-believe. So do so!
Just be tolerant of Christians who want to celebrate THEIR religion too.
Since when does celebrating your religion involve putting up religious symbols in conspicuous public areas? Here in Denver we have a gigantic year round lighted cross on a mountainside to the southwest of us. How is this celebrating your religion?
so Z, that lighted up cross hurts you in what way? does it make your eyes burn or something? if you touch it, does it burn your skin? if you don't believe, then why would you give a sh*t? does it bother you that much to let them have their "thing" ?
Cbd, unless there has been some groundbreaking proof that I missed, atheists still have yet to prove 100%, without a doubt that there is no God. Believing that there is no God is the same as believing there is one...or many for that matter. At the end of the day we are all believing in something, & I have seen many atheist clubs go after those who don't believe the same as themselves with as much zealous as any Bible thumper I have seen. Extremists are extremists no matter what it is you believe, & to those it is very much a religion imho :)
You are making the claim that a god exists so the burden of proof is yours.
You are making the claim that god does not exist so the burden of proof is yours.
Wrong. You claim a god exists. I don't believe you without evidence to support your claim. There may be a god but I haven't seen any evidence to believe there is. Show me your proof and I could be convinced.
Since before recorded history, if you are talking about all religions.
The cross you refer to is the largest lighted cross in the United States. It sits on Mount Lindo, on private property that is owned by the Olinger/Van Derbur families of morticians. It is part of the Mount Lindo Cemetary and Mausoleum, and marks the grave of Francis C. Van Derbur. It was constructed so that Francis' mother could see his grave from her Park Hill home. Perhaps your question rearding the celebratory nature of the cross should be addressed to Olinger Mortuary.
@cunical -- Well played.
Okay then, clearly a bad example as it sounds like some sort of large vegas style grave marker. Now can someone tell me why putting up conspicuous symbols of your religion in public areas is celebrating your religion? And yes, I do know that all major religion put them, I just would like to know why? No, BD-540164, it does not especially bother me. I'm used to such stuff. I grew up with it. I just don't understand the point in doing it. Does it make you feel like your pleasing god? It sounds suspiciously akin to erecting temples to please Zeus or something.
Z - virtually every religion has evangelization as one of its tenets or obligations. Placing symbols of the religious tradition in conspicuous places is one method of speading the "word" of that particular faith tradition.
denver bill 2 - Thanks for today's lesson. Always good to learn something new.
I personally do not care if you believe or not, I am not asking you to believe and I am not trying to convince you one way or the other, It is you choice what you believe or do not believe in, You know...That whole free will thing!
Since your very broad question addresses "your religion" instead of a specific religion, and there are thousands of religions and billions of religious people, the question could be rephrased and the answer will be general and maybe not satisfactory to you.
Q. What common reasons could there be for exhibiting a Christian Cross, a Satanic Pentacle, a Buddhist wheel of Dharma, a Pagan ankh, an Islamic crescent, a Jewish star of david, a Daoist yin and yang, or any other religious symbol?
A. Possibilities include a reminder to worship, a symbol of compelling ideas, a reminder to god that the worshipers are thinking of him/her/it, to evangelize to the neighbors, .......
But is it an obligation? Did Jesus decree that you should put up religious displays? I'm not well read in the Bible, but it doesn't sound like something Jesus would say....so I'm assuming he didn't. So it makes me believe that everyone just does it to fulfill some psychological/sociological need...or perhaps the desires of the christian church as an organization.
Not in so many words, but I'm pretty sure he said something about going forth and spreading the word. If you don't think that symbols are a potent way to spread the word, explain to me how so many people who have absolutely no idea what were the tenets of National Socialism can tell you what the swastika represents.
Z - putting up religious displays is not an obligation, I suggested that evanzelization was. In Christianity, the obligation to evangelize is most often related to Christ's instructions to the Apostles in the text of Matthew Chapter 28
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."
I love that exactly 23 beer cans were used in the construction of the pole. That means he drank the 24th can from the case while he was working on it. :D
Well, maybe he couldn't see straight enough to mount the 24th can. Isn't that some kind of blasphemy in the Festivusian religion?... :)
@cunical: LOL!
@JS in SD: Lighten up and take the broomstick out of your butt.
@Rev. Dave: Right on!
Public land belongs to the public, not the government. Public land is there to be used by the public, All members of the public.
However, the governments in charge of this public land can impose reasonable schedules for the use of public land, such as if the land only has room for 3 events at once, the government may tell groups "without any bias for against any group" when they can use the land.
Please not I have not mentioned anything about any religion or group, all I referenced was the public.
One group does not have more of a right to use a public space than another group.
This is why in some public spaces, you will see many different groups/ religions/ non religious side by side at the same time. They all have teh right to be there.
I don't attend church, but I do drink beer.
Goof for you, Do you have a Festivus Pole made from beer cans in your living room. The problem I have with beer cans is unless you rinse them they start to smell funny after a while I also prefer to crush them in my can crusher and put them aside so when I have enough I can take them to the Metal scrap yard and make money from them.
That should have read "Good for you", Geez...I must have had a beer too many last night.
I liked it the first time :)
I don't like the taste of beer in cans. I prefer craft brews, in bottles or on tap...
Now there is something we can agree on, If I drink a beer or other beverage from an aluminum can it always tastes like the can and I avoid them when possible, There is an increase in the number of craft breweries and micro breweries in my area and I enjoy the chance to sample something new whenever I have the chance.
let's get back to basics. Those of Mediterranean extraction can celebrate Kronia or Saturnalia. Those descended from Northmen can celebrate the Yule. Those of African heritage can observe John Canoe.
John Canoe? Er, Junkanoo?
America is tolerant of all religions (Freemasonry): Pastafarianism (Flying Spaghetti Monster-Look it up...), Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Native American Religion, Atheism, Santeria (animal sacrifice), Mormonism and Christianity, to name a few.
Is it so difficult to practice one's own religion and to leave other people to practice theirs?
I think perhaps people are a little sick of having a certain religion shoved down their throats. I have never been pressured into joining Pastafarianism, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism or Atheism. I have been pressured by the Mormons and Christians, though...
It seems like the Mormons and Christians feel entitled to impose their beliefs onto others, but they get a little testy when people do the same thing to them, or when they perceive someone doing it to them. When they bother me about joining their religion, I encourage them to convert to Islam. Or, go with me to the strip club...
"In 1985, the United States Supreme Court ruled in ACLU v. Scarsdale, New York that nativity scenes on public lands violate separation of church and state statutes unless they comply with "The Reindeer Rule"—a regulation calling for equal opportunity for non-religious symbols, such as reindeer."
So, basically, if this person wants to celebrate Festivus with a pole of beer cans, he is free to do so because this is America and the Supreme Court said so based on the Constitution. It is not an attack on any one religion. After all, the presence of the Nativity scene is not an attack on non-Christian religions, right?
At least he is not sacrificing animals there... The Santeria could... and nobody could do anything about it (Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye v. City of Hialeah)
If people in America are free to practice one religion, then they are free to practice all religions.
It is one of the features of living in a free country.
man i'm painting my face white, breaking out the bones, bloody chicken feet, and a bottle of whiskey and heading out there to join the party! now if i can only figure out where that doll and pins went...
You left out one detail and that is his admitted and known fact of hatred for the Nativity scene. Purposely attempting to infringe on others freedoms as Stevens has done in this case should have protections from jerks like him. How is it separation of Church and State when the government does not allow religious freedom? That my friend is oppression.
You left out one detail, Larry. In what way does allowing the Festivus pole disallow someone else's religious freedom? The Nativity scene is still up. The pole does not prevent someone from seeing it, believing in it, or out and out worshipping at it, should they wish to. So who, exactly, is being oppressed?
Poor Darde, I will pray or if that offends you I will hope for peace for you, It must be terrible to go thru life filled with so much hate.
Unless the "offended" is Muslim.
They seem to get away with stoning, blowing up, or otherwise killing those who they think make fun of their religion... with little consequenses to them, their relligion, or leaders.
Not in this country are they allowed to blow things up. An even in their own countries they get drone stikes for their troubles. Stop with the "poor poor me, I am a christian so everybody hates me" BS
Poor Darde...so filled with hate
Freemasonry is not a religion dolt.
Actually Hank, there are some that say Freemasonry is a religion.
I'm working on my own Festivus pole right now...'buurp'...I think I can outdo 23 cans.
One key ritual of Festivus is accusing others of being a disappointment, known as an airing of grievances.
In accordance with the intended perptrator's intention's, I hear-by voice my displeasure at the choosing of the site for the 'festivus'. The nativities were not erected to dis anothers belief. (Let's see which one is more popular.)
This Chaz Stevens must be a complete ass who deserves to have his ass kicked around a few times It is one thing to openly celebrate your beliefs and traditions but quite another when you attempt to destroy other peoples traditions and celebrations simply in the name of hatred and ignorance. Personally his beer can pole violates alcohol advertising standards and should be removed. If he desires a plain aluminum pole that can be erected. His present one needs to be shoved up his ass.
Darde...are you Chaz Stevens?
Larry - He is doing absolutely nothing that destroys or attempts to destroy other peoples traditions or celebrations. Lighten up.
No Darde, I am not a child molester, Are you, Are you so fixated on hating people of religion that you think everyone is a child molester, Were you molested when you were a child, Is that why you hate so much, Poor Darde, Maybe some counseling will help.
festivus is every bit as real as the virgin birth
And the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Now just wait a damn minute Tampa, I'll have you know I was a virgin when I was born, so you just shut your mouth about virgin births not being real or I'll have to ask you to sept outside and settle this with rock-paper-scissors!!!!
And that man evolved from slime
More real than you... who has no greater identity than that of a sports team fan. Important only because you watch others do things and do nothing yourself except express anger.
Good luck with that. Anger destroys the container. Suffer your own self-grown curse.
Maybe Tampa Bay Ray proves that to be true...
Religion, the entire concept is a joke, but if that is your bag go for it. Just don't shove it down others throats. One has just as much right not to believe in religion, as those have that do believe in religion. End of story.
I love beer and I say piss on Stevens and bless the Nativity scene. Just expressing my freedom of expression and not necessarily literally................
God Bless America and Merry Christmas to all.
Religion is about as real as the concept of Merlin and Harry Potter, with their magic brooms and magic spells, but if one wants to believe in all these fantasies so be it. I could care less.
Obviously you do or you would not have made at least 2 post in less than 20 minutes.
and if you do a little research you will find that Merlin was an actual person with some historical significance.
To me, this is no less an affront, than when the Nazis marched on Skokie, IL. I have no malice toward atheist, why is it that this particular one should dislike a singular group, that has done him no harm.
Maybe he is a gay man. The Religious Types have done immense harm to LGBT people.
I think you mean "some" religious types, And it appears that "some" LGBT people have done immense harm to themselves, recalling a number of recent articles where gays have reported they were assaulted because they were gay only to find out that they either did it to themselves or that one of the gay friends did it to them.
"The" is an all inclusive word, Notice when I responded I used the word "some" which is not all inclusive.
I don't get him. He expects the nativity scene to be taken down ,yet he has the right to display his pole.
Because he has failed at getting the nativity scene removed he is exercising his belief in Festivus and his right to have his religion represented alongside others.
The Author forgot the "Feats of Strength". Festivus needs to be celebrated properly.
"Think of how many people have died over the years to give us our freedoms," Stevens told the Sun Sentinel. "So I've got to push back a little." ...........as quoted from the article.
yeah, beers cans on a pole.......now think of the thousands of lives lost to some A-HOLE who had gotten behind the wheel after getting drunk. talk about the morons in society.
If you have a problem with beer cans and the "lives lost" due to Drunk driving then I think your grievance is with the Beer producers. I think the aluminum that the cans are made of is probably the real signifigance to the festivus pole this "religious freedom" proponant has erected. But by all means yell at the Coors family all you want (if the swill they sell can really be called beer) about the "lives lost" while they over-fund political campaigns here in Colorado with the profits.