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Subscribe to RSSThe Missouri Department of Transportation says it had no choice but to approve an application by a 9/11 “truther” group to “adopt” a stretch of state highway for litter pickup.
The agency recently OK’d the application from the St. Louis 9/11 Questions Meetup Group under the Adopt-A-Highway program. The approval means the group will have two signs bearing their names erected next month on each end of a half-mile stretch of Olive Boulevard east of Lindbergh Road in the St. Louis area.
In return, the group agrees to pick up litter along the stretch at least four times a year for the next three years.
Some members of the St. Louis 9/11 Questions Meetup Group suggest that the U.S. government may have been involved in the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Here's how the group describes itself on its website:
“We are residents of the Greater St. Louis Area (and other areas) concerned about the many disturbing aspects of the 9/11 attacks and interested in finding out more about those events. We have many disagreements, but we agree that 9/11 is worth inquiring into.”
Holly Dentner, a state Transportation Department spokeswoman, said the state can’t turn away a group’s Adopt-A-Highway application based on the group’s viewpoints. As long as the applicant fulfills the program’s obligations, which include collecting litter at least four times a year and submitting an activity report to the state, it can participate, she said.
“We can’t deny an adopter group a section of highway to pick up trash just based on their belief or opinions,” she told NBC News. “Should they not fulfill the obligations, we can cancel and remove the signs.”
A federal appeals court ruling in 2000 limited Missouri’s ability to pick and choose highway “adopters.” The 8th Circuit Court of Appeals upheld a federal judge’s ruling that Missouri could not reject the Ku Klux Klan’s application to adopt a stretch of Interstate 55 south of St. Louis. The Missouri Legislature later voted to name the stretch of highway in question the “Rosa Parks Highway,” in honor of the black civil rights activist from Alabama. The KKK was eventually dropped from the Adopt-A-Highway program for failing to pick up litter.
Other states have had Adopt-A-Highway controversies as well. In Georgia, a KKK chapter sued in September after the state rejected the white supremacist group’s application. In 2005, the American Nazi Party adopted a stretch of rural highway outside Salem, Ore., but their signs were quickly vandalized and later removed.
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Dentner said the St. Louis 9/11 Questions group is among more than 4,000 adopter groups who pick up a total of about 20,000 bags of trash along 6,463 miles of roads across the state a year.
The program saves the state at least $1 million a year in trash collection costs, said Tom Blair, assistant district engineer for state Transportation Department in St. Louis. “Without the Adopt-A-Highway program, all roadsides in Missouri would be much dirtier,” he said.
Donald Stahl, organizer of the St. Louis 9/11 Questions Meetup Group, believes the World Trade Center towers did not collapse strictly as a result of being struck by airplanes hijacked by terrorists. He says they may have been brought down by a controlled demolition.
As for why his group wants to adopt a highway: “Like all the other groups that do it, we like the free publicity,” he told KSDK.
Stahl did not respond to an email request from NBC News for comment.
The group’s philosophy doesn’t sit well with Warren Nelson, of the St. Louis suburb of Kirkwood. He and his wife lost their son, David Nelson, in the Sept. 11 attacks.
“Certainly we would not be in agreement with an organization that believes that our U.S. government had anything to do at all with 9/11,” he said. “No way.”
As to highway signs bearing the group’s name, Nelson said: “I would not want to drive down and see a sign like that.”
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I'll have to make sure I dump all my trash on that section of the highway.
Once we hear a satisfactory explanation of two 500,000 ton buildings turning to dust in about 9 or 10 seconds, hold onto that trash, because never in the history of humanity has a bigger package of false goods been sold to the public. And this is merely one anomalous event, of dozens that make no sense.
R. Scalzo-I'll gladly help you there, maybe that 3 story stack of Sandy debris will help too
Make sure to let the police know when you'll be there to litter.
If you think the 9/11 conspiracy was bad, you should take a look into the fact that the makers of jell-o purposely made the product jiggle so as to cause massive epileptic seizures among the public!! I'm telling, there are conspiracies everywhere! LOL
Woop2012 - what 9/11 were you watching? I saw those towers stand for quite a while before finally giving in to the weight of the planes and the damage caused by the flaming jet fuel. 9 to 10 seconds, my hind end.
In the movie "Loose Change 9/11", it shows a videotape of demolition-style explosions on the outside of the buildings coming from various floors at the time of the airplane crash. Numerous architects and engineers have said that there is absolutely no way that a fire could collapse a building like what we saw. I am convinced that our CIA knew much more than we were told. We were lied to, big time.
Did any of you see the film of Building 7? It was NOT one of the Twin Towers, but it came down just the same. If you watch the film (on Youtube), it drops like one of those old casinos that are demolished. Makes you wonder.
Also, have you ever seen the hole in the Pentagon? There is NO WAY that an airplane made that hole. The building on either side of the hole is unscathed (where the wings and engines would have been). There is also no damage at first above the hole where the tail section would have hit. You can look at it. Looks more like a missile hole.
I don't go for conspiracies, but this one seems legit.
Go haters!
Woop - the buildings were designed with flaws that resulted in the fires causing the structure to no longer be strong enough to hold the weight of the building above the point where the planes hit. Gravity took care of the rest. structural engineering + physics = dust. There was a documentary on TV a while back that explained the structural flaws. Buildings usually are not designed to withstand the impact of a large plane hitting them, especially ones that tall. It may make no sense to you, that does not make it false. Do you think somebody planted dynamite in the building, or some sort of death ray? SMH
Where did you get your engineering degree, Woop2012?
The Chair of the 9/11 commission is on record as saying the US government lied and withheld information regarding the events of that fateful day.
If for no other reason, we need another investigation to determine what happened.
Was Bigfoot there too? Jimmy Hoffa? Maybe the Easter Bunny was there. Whatever "truth" all you conspiracy nuts come up with, it's not gonna bring back those who died or magically restore the buidings. Get over it people and GET A LIFE!!!
And I guess you suckers swallowed the Warren Report too. Probably the same group pulled off both the Kennedy murders and 9/11. Probably a few involved in the Kennedy assasinations still walking around.
Mozzie I am an engineer and you have no clue of what you are talking about. Get an education!
Mostly like was referrencing the fact that the CIA had been telling Bush that al-Qaida had been planning an attack on U.S. soil since April of 2001. 7 different reports indicated an attack, but the administration did nothing, and then lied about not knowing anything
I wonder if the people who don't believe that our government was involved in 9/11, also believe that Japan attacked Pearl Harbor without provocation? Also, you should be proud that even "Nutcases" like a clean highway.
truthers are the dumbest of the dumb-fu cks. (well, maybe that is a little overboard - they are just TOTALLY inadequately EDUCATED - the BIRTHERS are the TRULY DUMBF UCKS)
What your pea sized brains fail to HAVE is ANY engineering knowledge about the building construction AND the characteristics of MATERIALS in high heat situations. You derive your positions from some IDIOT from BYU and other uneducated fools who think they have the answers. the ones that surprise me the most are the ones who deny that the buildings were hit by AIRCRAFT
and to YOU jeff - OK, then explain all of the 757 aircraft DEBRIS in the ground outside the pentagon AND the "pieces" inside - fan core, landing gear, other "stuff".
make sure you use REAL TIN for your hat - that cheap aluminium stuff doesn't stop the signals from the mothership
Whoop,
I'll explain to you how it happened. Two jet liners were flown full force into them. THAT'S how it happened.
I do not believe the building demolition theory, but I do believe that the cordial relationship of Cheney with OBL continued after the Russian-Afghan war. On September 17, 2001, Tim Russert on "Face the Nation" hosted Dick Cheney, and they talked about the tragedy, and Tim Russert showed a video of Cheney talking to OBL on a hillside in Afghanistan. Cheney waved it aside, but rather soon after that, Tim Russert died suddenly. Considering that Cheney knew precisely how dangerous OBL was (as OBL had been used against the Russians), and considering that every report about the danger that OBL was planning an attack on the U.S. was ignored by every possible Bush administration employee, I think there is too strong a link to be ignored. The fact that the World Trade Center was held together by little pins should have been a clue that it was meant for some grand scheme of collapse, but not that it would collapse on that particular date.
Cheney had a business (that was closed), a subsidiary of Haliburton, a nuclear power plant construction business, that happened to be around the 89th floor of the south tower of the World Trade Center.
"Mostly like was referrencing the fact that the CIA had been telling Bush that al-Qaida had been planning an attack on U.S. soil since April of 2001. 7 different reports indicated an attack, but the administration did nothing, and then lied about not knowing anything"
Thank god someone said it. There probably are a lot of secrets surrounding 9/11. But all of them have to do with incompetence and weakness on the side of the U.S. government, which certainly doesn't want to be exposed as having enough flaws and weaknesses as to make its citizens doubt its ability to protect them. Despite Al-Qaida admitting to and praising the attacks, despite the numerous self-admissions of Bin Laden of having planned and executed it, despite the mountains of evidence that make it obvious it was not an inside job, these 'truthers' apparently know something we don't. How do they know it? Because they know Bigfoot exists, too. It's freaking magic. Most of them look like they're meth addicts, anyway.
What exactly is the big deal here? I know I would like more facts and information about 9/11. This group was organized to ask questions and hopefully get some answers about the 9/11 attacks. It’s not like their bunch of insane birthers living inside the Fox News echo chamber.
I hope they're serious about getting to the truth about 9/11. Maybe they'll get lucky and shovel their way through the huge pile of B.S. Bush and Cheney dumped on us. It wouldn't surprise me at all if those two criminals were involved in some way to the attacks; or at least knew they were coming.
And good luck with your little choo-choo.
Whoop, Jeff, & mozzie
Get an oxy acetylene torch with a cutting head on it, light it, get the mixture right then hold the extra oxygen lever down. Put the tip of the flame against some concrete and watch what happens in about a minute. Don't forget your safety glasses although I don't think that will help as there are none so blind as those who refuse to see(or research and understand a little chemistry and physics).
Sounds like a good place for a full garbage truck to lose its load.
Did you hear the one about a plane that crashed into the Pentagon, but nobody found any wings of engines.? wing spans are pretty long on a jet, yet there is no impact marks further then 20 feet from center. gee I wonder why? So what kind of large object leaves a hole but no wing marks? hmmmm maybe a cruise missile? nahhhhhhhhh
The group should set up a surveillance system of that stretch of road. They will make a mint if they get just 20% of each $500 fine that their cameras document.
Hmmmm maybe just maybe the wings and engines are designed to break away under heavy impact since that is where the fuel tanks are, it's a safety feature to get the fuel away from the fuselage in a crash.
Woop2012, I guess you don't have cable because there have only been a couple hundred of programs that tell you exactly what happened in great detail. Here's a clue when you remove half the columns that support a structure then heat the remaining ones ----THEY FAIL!
georgepauljohn Clue two: a couple of hundred people saw a large commercial airplane hit the Pentagon from the highway that passes right by the building and not a missile!
Must be windy the tin foil hats have come off!!! 911 truthers or the KKK same kind of idiot cleaning the roadways and getting their name on a sign to do it!!!
That "movie" was bunk, and the "architects and engineers" you mention aren't even qualified in demolition work. I'm not sure they even work on skyscrapers.
There is precisely ZERO evidence of explosives being used, unless you want to count the improvised missiles used in the form of passenger jets.
The "truther" crowd are simply fools who have a severe distrust of government and can't accept simple facts or reality. Instead, they promote convoluted, illogical, and frequently conflicting theories. The "no planes" one has to be one of my personal favorites. That is one heck of a delusion.
For once, we seem to be on the same side of an issue. That's a refreshing change, isn't it?
Jim,
Nothing brings America together like a big dump of crazy.
Apparently you never looked at all the evidence from the Pentagon, or even bothered looking at all of the photos of the damage before that section collapsed (because you obviously weren't there). Your position is absolute nonsense, created by the deluded rantings of crazy people who cannot bring themselves to accept the truth.
Those who refuse to see or hear cannot complain they don't know what happened.
Sarah-3043284
Amen to that. The idiot "truther" crowd deserve to be run out of town on a rail after being tarred and feathered, but we just don't do that to people anymore. Too bad, because that would stop the silliness real quick...
Antistupidity
Hmmmm maybe just maybe the wings and engines are designed to break away under heavy impact since that is where the fuel tanks are, it's a safety feature to get the fuel away from the fuselage in a crash.
I'm on the fence about what happened, but I would like to know where were the wings and engines? I saw the videos of overhead footage of the Pentagon and didn't see the wings or engines. There were also no reports of pieces from the jet being found along the path the plane took. I would actually like to know where the parts were. Also, has anyone ever seen a plane shatter into tiny bits that were found at the location the 4th plane went down? For the size of the jet they were claiming hit the ground, there were no pieces out there that suggested that size of plane went down nor the size of the crater matching either. Plus there are a lot of conflicts in the time frames officials have reported, including video interviews of Bush giving 2 accounts of where he was when he was notified of the incident. So I'm scratching my head here with a few things. I'm not saying I believe the conspiracy theories, but there are a lot of questions that are not being answered very well and too many answers being given that conflict with statements that had been made over the years by officials and researchers.
If a bunch of loonies want to volunteer to do it, then more power to them. At least then they wouldn't be wasting ALL of their time, because Lord knows they're already wasting enough of their time concocting their "truther" stories.
I'm with you, Jim. The number of crazies here is scary.
Might as well just send an invite to polluters from hundreds of miles away just to dump @!$%# on this stretch of road. You want some truth? Pick up three tons of used baby diapers for a few hours.
Forgot to include you in post #1.30.
Clearly you've never looked at the evidence available, just the cherry-picked and doctored stuff you find on the "truther" sites. Clue: your position is ludicrous and not based on fact. Heeeere's your sign.
george - how does it feel smelling fecal matter all the time. that's a result of cranial-anal insertion. Pull on your ears hard enough and you can get it out.
IF you look at the net hard enough you will find pictures of the fan rotor of the 757 engine and landing gear from the rubble of the pentagon. Of course nobody expects you to go out and verify things which would contradict your "premise" - BUT IT IS THERE (also numerous picture of SHEET METAL SHOWING AMERICAN AIRLINES scattered on the grass in front of the impact area.) IT HIT AT ROUGHLY 450 MPH
As to the Shrub - it is WELL KNOWN that he was reading "My Pet Goat" - that's not even a point of discussion
Elizabeth, that never happened, you pathetic liar. Russert asked Cheney 'bout the video of him talking to Bin Laden? Lol.
Another one of the Truther's outright lies, which they have hundreds of. There is no such video anywhere and Tim Russert never asked him anything about it, and Tim Russert didn't die until 7 years later.
9/11 Troothers are the dumbest cattle alive.
While I won't buy into the paranoid fantasies that the US goverment was actively involved, I do think that there's still many unanswered questions about who knew what, and I wouldn't put it past Cheney to turn a blind eye so he could get his war and all the attending crap that came with it like Homeland Security and the Patriot Act. There's too much circumstantial documentation to dismiss out of hand....
Seems like a great place to drop off asbestos.
you're another nutjob trying to sound reasonable Crazyboy
Building 7 has never been adequitely explained. To have it conviently fall into it's own footprint due to a fire is an anomoly. If you could bring buildings down this way the explosive demolition industry would be out of business. WTC 3,4,5,and 6 were heavily damaged by the collapse of 1 and 2 and did not fall, while WTC 7 damage was much lighter, yet it fell into it's own footprint. It is no wonder that group wants answers.
As for the Oxy acetylene comment, jet fuel burns at a much lower temperature.
Why do I think this is a remake of a Seinfeld episode where Cramer adopts a highway and removes the signs to wash them causing accidents? LOL
State of Awareness
In a normal situation(crash landing at an airport or something of that sort) striking an object(pole) on the ground the wing would break free, the engines are also designed to break free of the wings, and would break away from the fuselage. At the speed the plane was going coupled with the geometry of the wings they would take the path of least resistance and fold back either under, over or into the fuselage and go into the building with the fuselage riding against the hole in the building.
Had it been a missile there would have been an explosion depending on the type of warhead, this was only an incendiary, hence the fire lacking an explosion other than the impact. Also if this wasn't a plane what did they do with that plane and the passengers, did they take the plane to a secret place, destroy it, murder all the passengers and then take their bodies to the pentagon, or did they just lie about it to the families, think it all the way through and you will see the absurdities of these conspiracy nutjobs.
Sarah, couldn't have said it any better
Isn't Photoshop wonderful!
#batsh*t crazy
Some have assessed that 7 came down due to fires that burned most of the day causing the structure to weaken and one side bulging after several hours. From what some of these analysts say, there was low water pressure at 7 and firefighters were not able to combat the fires that broke out properly. That's at least what I have read so far regarding reports that have been issued. Do I believe it? I'm still 50/50.
As if the accused body investigating itself wasn't bad enough, the media compares the critics to the KKK.
But over a long period of burn time with the added fuel from the building and and a through draft of wind temperatures reached close to 1900 deg F. which overcame the insulation melted the steel supports and is more than hot enough to make concrete explode.
Yea, I guess it was blind damn luck or maybe we can use a mathematician to explain how great the odds are that a metal beam would "Snap apart" too look like a cut?
https://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/WTCTorchAngleCuts1-full.jpg
And for the poster who said use a torch on concrete, my question is why use a torch? Are you saying that airplane fuel/ Kerosene won't do the same job? If it cannot, then your point is moot and invalid.Building 7 just so happened to house the SEC which refuses to release who and what they were investigating, before all of their data was lost and destroyed in the demolition. My guess is they were investigating banking fraud.2nd, look at how much the owner of the towers was going to have to pay out for asbestos removal and the attack happened and saved him from going bankrupt.3rd, Who profited from the put options on the airlines? Someone knew and made money off of it.And finally, You the sheeple gave the Bush Admin your full support in starting a false war with Iraq, based on false information, and you're too pig headed to admit you are wrong.
A steel-reinforced structure needs a temperature much, much higher than that of an oxygen-starved fire (orange flames with smoke) in order to melt and therefore weaken. A basic high school chemistry course could teach us all this, but people will only believe what they want to believe no matter what is done brazenly in front of their face. The fact that this article mentions the KKK's desire to adopt a highway vaguely alludes to the Nazi party's deliberate burning of the Reichstag- 9/11 "truthers" believe that the obvious demolition of the Twin Towers could have been America's "Reichstag event", using emotional triggers and fear to convince the people that we should go to war. Lots of people make lots of money off war.
Jet fuel can do the same thing but it is not easily accessible, someone had posted that they saw video and it looked like the concrete on the building was exploding like in a demolition, the point was to show that under high enough temperature concrete will explode. Therefore an oxy acetylene torch would be an easy was to observe the phenomena of concrete exploding. Go to your local muffler shop and they will attest to it.
I should know better than debate with people who can only relate to conspiracies and ignore science. Shakes head and walks away.
State of,
There have been numerous highrise fires around the world, many without functioning sprinkler systems, and none have collapsed because of the fire. They just burned themselves out.
Are some of you out there going to now say that the Building code in NYC 1983 (Work started on WTC 7 in 1983) was not as stringent as Sao Paulo or Shanghai?
I know they have some crazy ideals and all but some of you people suggesting that people drive by and purposely litter is awful. Anyone that wants to help clean up our roadways I say welcome.
All the people suggesting that these people are nut jobs should watch the video put out by over 1500 licensed engineers in the US that are protesting the findings of the government that state it is impossible for what happened to have happened without explosives being placed. And the explosives they have found traces of are only experimental and used by the military. I mean really, I am in construction and have seen a lot of things fall, and the odds of those buildings falling straight down with almost no collateral damage is nearly impossible. That would mean that on every floor, the steal beams were heated at the exact same temperature to cause failure. One floor after another. Not possible without planning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l-8PFk8j5I
After the last few years and seeing some of the crap that has come out, I wouldn't put anything past our government, supposedly by the people, for the people. Sheep don't need the truth, they just need a well trained dog to keep them in line.
Antistupidity,
Jet A is almost all Kerosene, easily available.
Spalling of concrete will occur due to high direct temperatures (torch) but this is due to the steep temperature gradient, and residual moisture content. A thin layer will pop off then the heating process must be repeated for the underlying layer.
I tried to tell
These were licensed engineers and architects. You don't know what you are talking about. (See John's comment #1.55).
Antistupidity
I have read back through most of your posts. I don't know what concerns me more, your belief that the government could not be possibly involved in such a thing, or your utter disregard for what private experts have stated.
I am not an engineer, however, I do own my own home foundry, and know a fair amount about metals. When it takes me an hour to melt 70 pounds of bronze(2000 deg F) in my blast furnace under a constant supply of propane and air, surrounded by refractory, how do you suppose steel(3000 deg F) lost its integrity in an open air fire in the same amount of time without an accelerant, and the jet fuel would have burned up in minutes, not hours?
In how the planes hit the towers, the one that I think about most is the one that hit the corner of the tower. Anything I know about structures, is that if you take out a corner, the structure will lean to that corner. And any fuel that the plane was carrying would be localized to that area. In theory of the jet fuel causing the collapse, that corner would have gone first, and the top floors would have fallen towards that corner, not straight down. Ever played Jenga? And considering that the entire structure is interconnected the top floors falling to that corner would cause the building to fall to the side, not straight down as happened.
The idea that it was the terrorists actions that was completely the cause of this simply is not logical. Like the video I posted states, they have been designing skyscrapers for a century, and no fire could cause a structural failure of this magnitude, and surely not as cleanly.
The truth about 9/11 will be lost in history. As will all events that have a conspiracy associated with them, to few see the light before its to late and then it become irrelevant. The most conservative right wing person I know still sides with me on 9/11. Regardless of what you think, ask yourself this:
(These are the most unbiased questions that I ask people. I don play into the looney toon conspiracy stuff (IE No planes, etc..)
*How do 2 planes take down 3 buildings? The 3rd building being further away than other buildings that still stood tall. All 3 of the buildings fell a free fall rate (as can be seen by youtube videos). Fire in building 7 - Was the reason given, which ANYONE should realize is complete bull@!$%#.
*Regardless of what "parts" were found at the pentagon, where are the wings or engines? Or any truly identifiable piece of evidence that a plane truly hit it. Many video cameras are on that highway, yet all that can be released the most pix-elated piece of crap video I have ever seen. Why cant they release one decent video?
It doesn't matter if you believe in the conspiracy or not, but ive never met anyone who could answer those questions without starting to see the cover up that took place on 9/11.
serial numbered nose landing gear good enough for you? It was there close to the inner ring penetrated. nothing quite like 450 pounds of steel moving at 400 miles /hour to chunk its way into a reinforced building. eh? Go find your rock - it misses you
LBJ is long gone.
I don't know, the single bullet theory is pretty high on my list.
If I was driving down the road and saw their sign I most likely wouldn't have a clue who they were and I suspect most other people wouldn't either. I also would not care... Whackos picking up trash? Good for them!
However we introduce the media, who then hype the thing into a life of its own where if they had just ignored it there would be no "free publicity".
Frankly, I don't care if the KKK, American Nazis, skinheads, black panthers, SLA, PLO, boy scouts, US chamber of commerce, GOP, or even Al-Queda decide to adopt a highway. So long as they pick up the trash, it saves money, prevents damage done to roads and vehicles and might save a few lives.
So we live in a free and diverse society, with limits. This group is within the limits -- they aren't hurting me or anyone else who chooses to simply ignore them. Conspiracy groups fascinate me -- how can people suspend reality to that degree? I'd love to sit down over a cup of coffee and talk with them about it, as long we all stay civil. Afterwards, I'd continue on with my business of living.
Here's a radical idea: teach people to understand the difference between a trash can and the side of the highway. Sorry, yeah, crazy concept. But I'd love to hear from anyone who actually does throw stuff out of their car, especially diapers, explaining why they do it.
Who really cares about this groups beliefs on 9/11. They are doing a public service.
Justme-123: States used to make a lot of money in big fines against litterers. While the states "save" money by letting others pick up the trash, they also encourage a lot of the trash to be dumped, and they no longer fine people as often.
State Troopers will still fine you if they see you throw something out the window.
I've seen them issue a citation for a cigarette butt.
They particularly enjoy issuing "must appear" tickets and taking the full amount of time needed to run plates on the car, then run each individual, separately and being sure to do a full field inspection of the vehicle.
Me too
They are not even a hate group, so why compare them to the KKK and Nazi party?
Because they, like the KKK and Nazi's have had their beliefs questioned and many people feel the government should not support them in any way, not even with a sign they earn by keeping the highway clean.
The government is not supporting them, and simple disagreement is no grounds for violating the First Amendment.
Not in our lifetime will all of the questions concerning the twin towers attacks be answered. The govenment has and always will keep certain information away from the public. There will always be groups such as these who question the "official" information. They are a necessary part of a democracy.
Yeah and I got a mole on my butt too. Doesn't mean it is a necessary part of my anatomy.
The information will come out long after anyone associated with it is dead and gone.
and the information will be the SAME as we know NOW
Yeah, we know now that Dick Cheney had a cordial relationship with OBL during the Russian-Afghan war, and knew better than to ignore reports about an attack by OBL on the U.S. That's what we do know, and that is fairly serious.
Goerge H W Bush has had a working relationship with the whole bin Laden family for 30 years. "W" Bush's partner in ARBUSTO OIL was Salem Bin Laden.
Why can't the people who embrace ignorance about 9/11/2001 simply admit that they don't want to know the TRUTH? When they then stand in the way of any, and every, REAL investigation of 9/11/2001, they become accessories after the fact to mass murder.
On January 23, 2013, OBAMA should appoint a special prosecutor, with subpoena power and unlimited security clearance to hear and compel classified testimony from people like George Tenet and Condi rice.
Your desire to not have 9/11 investigated doesn't trump the obligation of the government to properly investiagte the MASS MURDER of US citizens on US soil.
godammit paul - it WAS INVESTIGATED. You seem to think that everything was just hauled to the DUMP and everything was forgotten
It's funny that you say that because all of the steel from the two towers was hauled away and destroyed immediately after the attack before an investigation could take place. You don't think they would want to keep any pieces of the steel framework of the building to investigate why the whole building collapsed? WTC Towers were not burning near hot enough to compromise steel and certainly not hot enough to melt the steel all of the way down. Gravity and weight aren't going magically make the steel structure 50 floors below the impact sites disappear. I am not saying the buildings couldn't have come down, but not at freefall speeds and definitely not straight down. If there is a giant gaping hole in one side of the building and you believe the fire was hot enough to melt steel the top still would have fell off to the side. It's the path of least resistance.
go look at the NIST report and you will see pieces documented down to the in-building location. EVERY piece that went into that building was numbered and serial numbered
also remember the rubber connectors between the outer walls and the inner core at the ends of the floor joists. THOSE burnt thru and allowed the floors to bow the walls inward. The joist bolts broke and the collapse was on.
Yeah this is quickly going to become the
messiest highway in america, I hope they have a lot of volunteers and a big
budget for hefty trash bags because they’re going to be very busy during the
whole period that they have to tend to this highway. As crazy as they are
though these groups do tend to have a few really hot women that I’d love to
talk about my south tower with…
Let me ask a few questions to any 9-11 conspiracy theorist. First, does the Federal government perform its duties very well? example: the levies before & after Katrina. Answer: NO. Next, do you think the most incompetent presidential administration in history IMO could have pulled off an operation as logistically complex as 9-11 and then successfully cover it up this long? Bush couldn't do anything right, but somehow he got that right? try again.
Exploiting the tragedy to justify an invasion for oil is plausible.
Deliberately causing the tragedy and successfully pulling the wool over everyone's eyes is too hard to believe.
Mac, There have been quite a number of highly successful government conspiracies and subsequent cover-ups. For starters, we have the secret bombing of Cambodia, the Watergate DNC burglaries, and the Nixon "plumbers" burglary of the office of Daniel Ellsburg's psychiatrist, and the list could go on. They all remain secret to this very day. I don't even know about them.
I would hardly consider Watergate successful. If it were successful, Nixon wouldn't have had to resign, because none of the evidence would have led back to him.
No one ever said Bush was the brains of this. Maybe his dad, maybe Cheney.
SpaeCAptain - I actually think Bush Sr is a fairly honorable man and would not have had anything to do with a consipracy like this - do I think he was a good president -no but honorable yes.
The Bush Jr administration failed to pay attention to the intel they had form the Clinton team and their own teams, that is one reason the attackes were successful. No conspiracy just stupidity. Than they got so enamored of the intel available they (Bush/CHeney) started reading the rought reports, not the reports that had been analyzed by analysts who know what they are doing by the raw data - give a fool and meglomaniac raw data and you get panic and war.
sheesh - I DESPISE Shrub and his ilk - but it is PREPOSTEROUS to insinuate a connection between a bunch of ultra-fundy ARABS and a PRESIDENT (or any of his associates - crooks/ liars that they ARE)
What 9/11 PROVED was both Murphy's LAW and the First Corollary
1. ANYTHING THAT CAN HAPPEN, WILL HAPPEN
2. MURPHY WAS AN OPTIMIST
It isn't just stupidity if Cheney had a working relationship with OBL during the Russian-Afghan war. Cheney knew how dangerous OBL was, but ignored reports about OBL attacking the U.S. in 2001.
Mac, there have been a lot of successful government conspiracies, and here's something for you to think about in addition to all the thoughts from engineers about the collapse of the buildings.
1) The stupidist President would be the perfect one to do it under. The public would never believe he's smart enough to pull it off.
2) Think like a terrorist!!
a) If I were a terrorist what time of day would I have picked to hit the towers? 8:55 am with only 3,000 people or 12 noon with 10,000?
b) But some say 8:55 am was the easiest time for the terrorist to get through Logan Airport. Really! If I were a terrorist would I go through at 8:55 am when there are less people or 12 noon at the peak rush hour? When people are too busy, they make more mistakes; therefore, it would have been easier to slip through at noon when the airport employees were busy. How the h-ll did these terrorist get through our airport during a slow period? What does this say for our airport security at that time?
Hollykb,
Obviously you haven't researched papa Bush's connection to the Dallas tragedy. There were people who shed tears of joy when they listened to the honorable Hitler too. Here's a link to a quick scan of the issue of Bush's involvement, but there are many more detailed ones than this.
http://www.angelfire.com/ky/ohwhy/Bush.html
Anyone seriously interested in 9/11 should listen to the Discovery interview with Dr. Niels Harrit where he discusses the implications of the nanothermite discovered in all three buildings. This man is a retired chemist from the University of Copenhagen and has no irons in the fire other than his obligation to speak the truth of what he has found.
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20110307061747765
Holy crap, Angelfire still exists??? Not exactly a source of reputable or even merely questionable information, guys.
space cadet - go waste your time on 911"truth" if you wish - but don't try to sell that snake oil to anyone intelligent (oh, wait - you can sell it to the ones who say that there is no such thing as a single noia - they only come in PAIRS)
forkdude,
Not selling snake oil to anyone. The govt. took over that market long ago and there's no room left for competition. They started giving it away for free when they found out there were so many like you in need of it's mind numbing properties. Hopefully you were kind enough to thank them.
I have no problem with letting them have their section of highway. Cleaning up some litter might be the only useful beneficial activities that these nutjobs are capable of.
And here it is - The absolute dumbest of the dumb, the "Truthers." Even more brain dead than racist groups, criminals, and cult followers. I've never seen such horrible critical thinking skills. Not one of their arguments carries a tiny bit of logic behind it.
These total morons actually believe it's logical that the government spent months elaborately rigging the towers to implode in an "obvious" controlled demolition (and nobody saw these workers by the way) with no explanation as to why. Why did they want the buildings to fall in an obvious "controlled" demoltion? Why not let them fall in a non-obvious way? Total idiots! That there was no Flight 93. Then what about the hundreds of grieving family members? Oh, they're part of the conspiracy. Ridiculous! And who did all of this? Secret "government" agencies. Obviously they're all total psychopaths and the best secret keepers in the history of mankind.
When you try to explain logic to them they shut down. They get mad and claim you're just a mindless sheep. Don't even bother. These people need to go back to special ed and stfu!
Alright Smeado, that's enough logical and reasonably thinking for awhile. Troofers simply wave off logical, reasonable, sound arguments as another government conspiracy perpetuated by the communist NEA.
I agree that the towers weren't rigged, but I disagree that there was no complicity in the attacks by OBL. Cheney and he worked together during the Russian-Afghan war.
Smeado,
It's amazing how you've just described yourself with pin-point accuracy. Your complete and utter denial has prevented you from conducting even the most basic research on 9/11, but let me answer your questions:
As per countless eyewitnesses, there were construction trucks going in and out of the towers for weeks before 9/11. Now, according to the WTC Management, they were performing elevator system upgrades, which gave them direct access to the supporting beams of the buildings where advanced explosives could be and were planted. Dynamite is Stone Age, and would never be used for such purposes because you can find traces of it, so Thermite or Thermate were implemented. Why in "obvious manner"? Because there's no other way to properly bring it down 3 buildings of that size. What you fail to realize due to a complete lack of scientific knowledge is that the buildings had ZERO resistance during the collapse, and that is absolutely impossible. Even if 1 or 2, hell, even if 10-20 beams were weakened, there would still have to be resistance. Even NIST has admitted there was free-fall speed, which means no resistance and anyone with common sense and logic would know such thing cannot occur unless all points of resistance have been taken out, i.e., a demolition job. The WTC Towers were designed to handle 2 Boeings, a bit smaller at that time, but that's irrelevant. When the planes hit, the majority of the fuel went up in balls of fire, so that right there tells you that what was left in the buildings was very minimal. If the buildings had to fall due to the planes being the main cause, then the top of the buildings would simply fall over at 90 degrees, but here we have complete collapse and total dustification of all glass and concrete. The force required to disintegrate everything to this extent is impossible unless it's a demolition. In addition, the NIST is stumped as to how a steel girder (which is the only piece of preserved evidence left that wasn't disposed right away in violation of Federal laws) could have holes melted through it since no such temperatures from plane fuel could cause that.
Look at WTC 7, where was the plane that hit that building? Exactly, there was no plane hitting WTC 7, but it went down in an identical manner, and received very little coverage by the media. WTC 7 was one of the most, if not the most, reinforced building in the US as it served as a bunker in case of a catastrophe. There were also FBI, CIA and NSA offices in that building. You do realize that these 3 buildings were the first in the history of the world, not just the US, to collapse the way they did and for the "reason" they did, but I'm sure you bought the official story right away.
Explain to me the molten pools of steels being found months later. All this evidence can be found in videos and pictures and firefighters' accounts, but you still won't open your eyes because you think some dirty cavemen were able to plan and execute it all.
As for Flight 93 in Shanksville, please open your eyes! Look at ALL of the available footage of the area of impact where Flight 93 crashed. What do you see? I'll tell you what you see. You're looking at a little hole in the ground with no debris. No plane seats, no wings, and most importantly, no goddamn engines. According to the official story, the plane disappeared, simply vanished. Basically, they are suggest that titanium-alloy engines were disintegrated, so look at the temperatures required to be able to do so, and tell me, what could make it possible for such temperatures to be present to not only evaporate the whole plane, but the engines as well. Please compare actual plane crash sites to that of Shanksville and see if you can spot similiarities. Oh, and, almost forgot, that vertical scar you see in Shanksville was there since 1994-95, and there are available satellite images from that time to support that.
As for the Pentagon. I mean, this is probably the most obvious one, but you're too blind to look at things that you don't need a conspiracy theorist to point out. By examining the available evidence, you can easily see the intial impact on the Pentagon. What you will see is a 20 ft. hole, which eventually collapses into a 60+ ft. gap. So, you're telling me a wing span of 125 ft. could create a 20 ft. hole? All the while evaporating the titanium-alloy engines? My God, you are the true definition of sheeple, and it saddens me every time I come across people like you.
You don't even need to look into the Twin Towers. The evidence available on the WTC 7, Pentagon, and Shanksville is enough to suggest that the official story is nothing but fraud. There has yet to be a criminal investigation, how cute is that?
There's just so much more evidence that I simply wouldn't have space to type up, but I'm sure you will look it up yourself because you, too, will eventually wake up. I've seen people who were even bigger morons and skeptics than you, but were completely transformed once they finally decided to open their eyes and come out of the abysmal denial they were dwelling in, like sheeple that they were. So, do what your fellow skeptics and non-believers did and still do, and conduct some research, without bias. You're too afraid to alter your reality, so you'd rather take the approach of denouncing those who are after the truth, especially when the truth is so obvious and is plain sight. You must call yourself a patriot, too, huh? You're nothing but a @!$%#in' joke, so do your country a favor and research it. I guess the 9/11 Firefighters Organization for the truth are all idiots, too, right? Funny, most of them were actually there on that day and you will believe the crooked politicians over that which the firefighters who were there are saying? You're just another scumbag who believes the government is God. Pathetic.
Actually they DID see the workers. It was being done right under the noses of everyone in the buidlings. So what's your point? The same thng happened when Russia took p[art in building the U.S. Consulate in Moscow. Bugs & surveillance devices were discovered years later. Since then we implemented a CAG (Cleared American Guard) Program & hire CSTs (Construction Surveillance Technicians) to oversee any structure the U.S. gov't is building abroad.
YES, the TIME taken to do it was 'available'. The Security Co. for those towers were based out of Israel. Do I need to go on? You apparently haven't been doing your own research on this matter.
Youve ade excellent points that any American patriot who loves their country would make in support of their gov't. However, tere's an explanation on HOW it was done. The question now is what position do you take now htat tere's an explanation for what you previously thought there was none for? Do you blinly stick to NO WAY this was controlled demolition?
Why do u think the people on the lower floors heard explosions? C'mn, dude. WAKE UP!!
Dude,
"Marvin P. Bush, the president's younger brother, was a principal
in a company called Securacom that provided security for the World Trade Center,
United Airlines, and Dulles International Airport." And not to be outdone by
this fact, we also learn that "from 1999 to January of 2002 (Marvin and George W.'s cousin) Wirt
Walker III was the company's CEO." http://www.911hardfacts.com/report_09.htm
There is a huge difference between someone hearing "an explosion" and establishing that the source of the noise was actually caused by the detonation of explosives.
NO witness reported seeing explosives, wires, detonators, etc. NO audio recording contains the distinctive signature of detonating explosives. There is NO visual signature of explosive detonations on the video recordings (contrary to what the "truther" twits claim to see in the videos). There is NO evidence of explosives being present at all.
Sorry, but your story has no factual basis. C'mon, Dude-4015130, WAKE UP! Same goes for Synthetica in post #9.3.
See, they waive off logic and come right back with their ridiculous, illogical, and unprovable conspiracies. They throw around names, titles, and ranks that they regurgetate from some nitwit site like they did the research themselves. Not once even letting a morsel of logic enter their brains or saying to themselves, "come on, is it even possible for this many people to pull off something so elaborate?" Save it morons.
Smeado,
There's no need for any websites. All you need to do is examine available footage/photos/etc., on 9/11. Everything is in plain view.
But, see, in order for you to understand what you're seeing, you'd have to be somewhat intelligent and have an understanding of basic science such as laws of gravity and conservation of energy, which both were defied for the first time in history of humanity. If you look into these laws and understand them, then you will clearly see that what we're being told does not match, but what we're seeing does.
You still don't have an answer on how there's a 20 ft. hole in the Pentagon upon impact, do you? I guess it's possible for so many cavemen to pull it all off, eh?
You can argue all day long about where people get their information, and you will still lose, but go and look at the sites of crashes yourself. Perhaps only then will you be able to answer some of these questions because right now you're unable because you have no answers. "Disintegrated engines" lol!
Hey, Jim5769,
What you're saying is irrelevant. What's relevant is that there are numerous accounts of firefighters/rescue teams/survivors hearing explosions. Including the firefighters I personally know. That includes recordings and videos where explosions are heard. The traces of Thermate explosives were found in the dust, too.
Nobody wants to believe the gov't had anything to do with 9/11.
But the facts point to this being a conspiracy.
If you can't look at the facts with an open mind, you are ignorant. Sorry about that.
Enjoy trusting the gov't.
Jim,
http://911review.com/coverup/oralhistories.html
we originally had thought there was like an internal detonation explosives
because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came
down.
Ed Cachia, Firefighter engine 53
At least now they're going to be doing something useful with their free time. I'm thinking of starting a "truth" group to find out why Twinkies are no longer available. I think the government is behind it.
Now you're onto something.
indirectly the gummint WAS behind it - they made it profitable for companies to escape financial obligations (even after employees made wage and benefit concessions)
Trash talkers picking up trash. Makes sense to me.
As long as they don't adopt kids
I’m sure that the tens of millions of homeless
orphaned, foster-cared, etc. children around the world would much rather live
in the safety of a good home and have their basic neccessities provided for
than live in the tragic conditions that they do now even if that person who was
doing the honor of taking them in believed in something that you on your high-and-mighty-horse
don’t agree with, how ignorant can you be?
Yeah, but the kids would be under the control of the whackos - that's worse.
Unless the kids conspired to bump off the parents.. so it might come out okay
It is ironic that so many of the willfully ignorant refer to the informed and inquisitive as the "whackos".
Truthers don't have all of the answers, but at least they are aware of what lies they have been told.
Any good American must support the idea of a complete and PROPER investigation of the mass murder of their fellow citizens on American SOIL!
you mean blissfully UNAWARE paul - they are the dumber but not the dumbest - that title belongs to the BIRTHERS
If everyone in the group lays down on the roadside then we can all get together and pick up the trash.
I always thought that this 911 conspiracy people w I here way off..specially the lose change kids.
You have to pay attention to the source where information is coming from.. But now i'm slowly starting to change my mind..I believe in scientific evidence ...And now you have respectable people on board with scientific proof that things didn't happen the way we were told...
A scientist who is not connected to loose change. This is what convinced me. Most criminals leave traces that crime labs discover. Such is the case here.
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20110307061747765
And along with it being a "crime" there is usually a motive. How about using 9/11 as an excuse to start the arab wars and at the same time throw down a police state? Motive enough for the power crazed.
WHile I dont believe in the 9/11 conspiracy theory, something you said remined me of the following historical conspiracys (and no I cant remeber the plural of consipracy - sorry):
1) The Zimmerman Cable that helped drag the US into WWI.
2) The theory that Roosevelt knew about Pearl Harbor far enough in advance that he could have shoud have prevented it.
3) THe theory that Dugout Doug allowed the Japanese to attack the Philipines with out defending the islands on 12/7-actually he did.
4) The Gulf of Tonkin Incident.
Our history is replete with screw ups or conspiracy that led us into war or cost lots of lives.
ANYTHING you read from that site is a PROFOUND WASTE OF TIME.
It BECAME an excuse but wasn't intended to be one. AQ was trying to strike back at the USA and they succeeded far beyond their wildest dreams. Like I said earlier not only was Murphy's LAW proven, the corollary about Murphy being an OPTIMIST was also PROVEN
I believe that OBL and Cheney had worked together, and Cheney at the very least knew how dangerous OBL was. Intelligence community (and Bush Sr. got daily updates) knew that OBL had tried the same plane trick in Paris already. Tim Russert, on Sept. 17, 2001, on "Face the Nation," showed a video of Cheney and OBL on a mountain in Afghanistan during the Russian-Afghan war. Yet, despite knowing how dangerous OBL was, all reports about OBL attacking the U.S. in 2001 were ignored up to 9/11.
Add to that: all the military bases had been taken away from the New York City area. Notice that no military was available to help for hours after the towers went down? An international attack on U.S. soil was being fought by... local police and firefighters ????? Didn't that strike anybody (especially anybody who is military) as way off base? They all said that the fires could not be put out with the boats and equipment available, and that helicopters couldn't get near; O.K., I'll buy that, sort-of. But I saw pictures of the flames, and they were on one side of the buildings for a while, and nobody on the roof could be rescued?
Add to the motives of the wars that it would make the President look like a hero no matter what, and that there were some vital nuclear power plant plans in the south tower of the World Trade Center that might have shown flaws in the U.S. nuclear power plants. Cheney knew that because he had owned the power plant company that had been there in the 1980s: Haliburton had bought it. There are so very many leads in this case that nobody believes it, because it is just too huge a crime.
they are called false flag operations and they exist to start a war. pearl harbor was a false flag operation and i believe so was 9/11. and yes I saw the second plane hit live from across the hudson. no doubt 2 planes hit those buildings. we are entitled to question those in power. does anyone really still believe that JFK was shot by a lone gunman which is the conclusion reached by the warren commission? does that not give anyone the right to question those in power. do people not remember the vendetta GWB had to have had with Iraq over the plot to kill his father. did we invade a sovreign country in pursuit of the wrong guy?do people really believe saddam hussein had anything to do with 9/11? there are plenty of unanswered questions. thermite traces...no fuselage wreckage at the pentagon site, absolutely no wreckage in pennsylvania with f15s scrambled all over that flight. does anyone really believe that a diabetic obl controlled an international terror group FROM A CAVE?
How many airliner crashes have "vaporized" everything, including ALL human remains? Yes, yes, there have been some. They all happened on 9/11.
Pearl Harbor was NOT a False Flag Operation! The Japs did actually do the attacking. FDR was well aware that they were going to attack us at Pearl. What is really astounding about the attack was that none of our Carriers were in port, or in the area to launch a counter attack, and the Japs didn't think it was worth their trouble to hit our oil supply installations with incendiary bombs. If they had just set our oil aflame, none of the US Navy fleet would have been able to operate for 6 months or longer out of Hawaii.
see - Murphy favored the US and stymied the Japanese... Murphy always WINS (and Murphy was an OPTIMIST, TOO)
Looked at the link you provided in #14.1. It implies that someone employed a "soundless" explosive, which is physically impossible--an explosion cannot be soundless, unless perhaps one that occurs in the vacuum of space (still waiting to see the test results of that hypothesis). Please note that he changes his reference from "nano-thermite" to "thermite" when talking about cutting the steel beams, although he takes pains to note that those are different materials in the article. Thermite can indeed cut through a steel beam relatively soundlessly, because it ISN'T an explosive--thermite burns and melts through steel, it doesn't explode through it. Thermite also ISN'T used in controlled demolitions. So if he's claiming that he found "nano-thermite," which he claims can be used as an explosive, then its use would NOT have been "soundless" as thermite could be. Since there is ZERO audio or visual evidence of high explosive detonations, what does that tell you about the credibility of his claim? It is also zero.
I don't know why he'd bother making this stuff up, but I don't HAVE to figure out why crazies do what they do. I just need to be able to recognize that they're DOING it.
Wow..."truthers" are out in force on this article, it seems. Anyway, since the doors onto the roof of the WTC buildings were locked so that nobody was able to get onto the roofs, please tell me who exactly you are referring to in this line? Even IF helicopters had been able to hover low enough over the roof in all that smoke for people to climb aboard, there was nobody on the roof for them to pick up.
As for your claims about the military not being involved until hours after the towers collapsed, you've clearly ignored the evidence regarding the timeline and actions of the military. Go do some ACTUAL research and then you MIGHT get a clue. Stay off the idiot "truther" websites and do yourself a favor.
Jim,
How much do you know about thermite? Do you understand it's chemistry? It does it's work by generating extreme heat more than by explosive power. Nanothermite, while being called "explosive", may not produce the same sound as TNT. Look into it a little further before you call a PhD in chemistry a crazy.
Who thunk up the word "truthers"? It's not even a word. What the hell does it mean?
Another radical fringe group. I guess they're needed so the rest of us look sane.
The correct term is "troofers" alluding to their complete lack of education in any manner for form.
it derives from the "9/11 Truth" identification. Adherents are called "truthers" (I just call them stupid fuc kers)
I do look forward to the day when we can lock you up for being an accessory after the fact to mass murder.
I watched it live - were you old enough to understand what was happening?
As citizens of this country, we have a First Amendment Right, and I believe a responsibility to question what our government might tell us. While this group's concerns aren't high on my priority list, I support their right to pursue them.
yup - it's their money and their IDIOCY - "a fool and his money are soon parted"
I say look on NetFlix and watch any of the movies concerning 9/11, as I did, with an open mind, and tell me if you are not left wondering, just the slightest, if it is possible. I was convinced, that what our governemnt had told us about 9/11, and what video had showed us over and over again that it was all terrorist related, but after waching "Loose Change" and other documentaries regarding 9/11, I must say, there is reasonable doubt that it was solely terrorists and that our governement knowingly did some cover ups. Also, coincidentally, many of the 'witenesses' to the days events that have testified against what was fed to us in the media have 'died' under strange circumstances, i.e. not natural causes. See for yourself, don't have netflix, check them out on youtube. Makes you think....just sayin.
inherently intelligence challenged, aren't we? Loose change is the dumbest presentation (of course to someone who isn't TECHNICALLY educated, it might seem "plausible" but to the educated, it's as bad as trying to say "the sun goes around the earth")
You like technically educated conversations about this? Watch the Niels Harrit interview.
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20110307061747765
I really don't give a FU CK - I've looked at the various BULLS HIT and it doesn't measure up to REALITY. You fail to understand that this is OLD NEWS - not that part of the idiots in Missouri and their road clean up but the BULLS HIT of the 911 "truther idiots". interviews are just that - memory related telling of tales. Unless it's new (within the last 2 years or so) I've probably seen it, assessed it and discarded it as worthless "trivia".
I really don't give a FU CK - I've looked at the various BULLS HIT and it doesn't measure up to REALITY. You fail to understand that this is OLD NEWS - not that part of the idiots in Missouri and their road clean up but the BULLS HIT of the 911 "truther idiots". interviews are just that - memory related telling of tales. Unless it's new (within the last 2 years or so) I've probably seen it, assessed it and discarded it as worthless "trivia"
discarded it on your expert authority? state your claim to this authority. why should anyone here believe YOU Im interested in your..you know..qualifications other than your extreme arrogance
do you know what a PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER IS? I've been one (licensed) for 35 years
gee Fork I really don't know what a PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER is. Someone that makes the choo choo train go? The fact that you are an engineer ( of what distinction or specialty I don't know) does not necessarily qualify you to make such assumptions which is all you seem to be doing by casting aspersions and name calling and labeling things as bull@!$%# without looking at things from every possible angle. I would hate to think that anyone I know might occupy a building that you built or inspected (assuming that's what you do) You discount a lot of potentially viable facts in your vitriolic discourse but use no science or facts to back your beliefs up. All that people are saying on here is that more questions need to be asked and answered. I assume you witnessed the Congressional hearings on this. You discount the Northwoods operation as a falsehood but it is published fact from a presidential library. But I guess you're right ...a government would NEVER lie to its people to justify war against a common enemy. Hitler didnt do that right? and you must trust Dick Cheney implicitly How sad for you. I have this bridge I would like to sell you on the cheap
Forkdue,
No one gives a F___k if you give a F___K or not. I certainly don't.
not my problem - your opinion is your opinion - and you KNOW what they say about opinions - like an ANUS, everybody has one...
At least we have some thinking people in Missouri . 9/11 was a hoax and most of the world knows it.There are books in other languages with experts showing the hoax .Bush , Chaney and Co. did it to keep us in endless wars with the Muslim World-they should be tried for treason and war crimes. It was also done to keep Americans enslaved with the Patriot Act, to trash our Constitution. Arrogance of the neocons have no limit. They are a real danger to our National Security. The neocons use our media and their Imperial Parrots to brainwash the American public ( lies, censorship and distortion of comments) to spend money on our armanents and got us to bankrupcy. Now we have to borrow money from Communist China to keep our government afloat.
Exactly Joe-3496279, this country is full of wool over the sheeps eyes.
Hey Joe, I think your tin foil hat fell off, use some staples it will stay on longer.
nah - he needs to UPGRADE to the REAL THING - REAL "tin" foil is hard to find but does ever so much better of a job blocking the signals from the mothership
Troofers are the dumbest, least educated, least employed, laziest humans on earth. They'll blame the gubmint for everything (including socialism), yet they'll be first in line for gubmint handouts.
I'm on my lunch break, from work, where I have been employed for 11 years, I have no criminal record and have never had a gubmint handout as you so eloquently put it, I am just able to view things with an open mind and think for myself, and not be disallusioned by the media and government. PS, I work for the government :-)
try some REAL education - works wonder when you understand strength of materials and the inherent design flaws in the building design/ construction.
Why don't you come to this discussion with some real information? All you do is call "Truthers" names and assume that they are uneducated. I would say that anyone who can watch the multiple videos of WTC#7 coming down at freefall acceleration for the first 2.8 seconds of its 8 second implosion, and not realize that the official "explanation" from NIST doesn't explain this phenomenon, and still call themselves educated is either a LIAR, or cheated their way through school, or both.
you DO understand that the collapse time for 7 was NOT at freefall speed like 1&2. the acceleration was slowed by the relative low amount of weight on top of the immediate collapse area - it didn't have the weight to compress and collapse the lower floors like in the main towers. At any rate - 7 NEVER was part of the equation - the circumstances surrounding the collapse were well documented - in fact when the fire units were pulled back (just before the collapse) it was BECAUSE they heard noises and fully expected that collapse. So exactly WHAT do you consider REAL information? Reluctance to accept postulations from uneducated fools about failure? No sense trying to "discuss" anything with a TRUTHER - they won't LISTEN, so might just as well insult them.
By the way - this isn't a discussion - it's a sound off board for the collection of idiotic "truthers" to try to bleat (like a flock of sheep) their case to the public. Anyone educated (materials science and particularly ENGINEERING) will LAUGH at not only THEM but their conclusions as well - the object is to bluntly tell them to STFU and get REAL information - not third hand hearsay (which is utterly worthless). The truthers remind me of the spam we see from time to time on the vine - "My cousin's husband's cousin makes $162,354 every day on the internet..."
Wrong, dumbass. Even NIST admits that the FIRST 2.8 seconds of the collapse of WTC#7 occurred at Freefall acceleration rates. WTC#7 isn't well documented. It wasn't even mentioned in the 9/11 Commission Report. No testimony on WTC#7 has ever been subpoenaed or taken while under oath and threat of perjury. The first volunteer NIST Head Investigator was "fired" for asking too many questions.
not quite - he was fired for not moving quickly enough.
"Holly Dentner, a state Transportation Department spokeswoman, said the state can’t turn away a group’s Adopt-A-Highway application based on the group’s viewpoints."
That is such a crock and she knows it. You mean if the American Nazi Party wanted to Adopt a Highway, they put of their sign? You mean if Al Qaeda in America wanted to Adopt a Missouri Highway, they'd put up a sign with "Al Qaeda in America" on it?
C'mon, lady. Get real with us. Your truthiness is showing.
Had you read the article, you'd find that yes, that's EXACTLY the case, and the Nazi Party and KKK have both adopted highways.
Only an IDIOT or someone in a serious (but sorry) case of DENIAL will dismiss all the logical unanswered questions that were posed regarding 9/11 and the notion that the official story is a lie.
People on here are talking crap about 'Truthers' and believe 9/11 happened just as the gov't said, yet NO ONE who sides with the gov't has yet to explain, right on HERE, what caused Bldg 7 to fall the way it did. All 3 of these bldgs fell in the same manner, ..indicative of controled demolition.
The (supposed 2b) highjackers' photos were displayed by the U.S. gov't, w/their names, yet those very people who were accused had to clear their names because they were alive & well living in their countries.
Can any of you who believe terrorists w/box-cutters guided planes into the towers & at the Pentagon explain that? Can any of you 'believers' of this bull crap the gov't is feeding u explain how airplanes hitting those towers caused them to fall the way they did?
Look at the money that was made following this crap. Believers who dismiss all logical allegations against the gov't are no better than the Nazis who followed Hitler. Blind obedience is what it's called.
And as for not denying a group to adopt a highway based on their point of view; this group doesn't have a 'point of view'. They are simply questioning a tragic incident that happened to our nation for which our gov't has no logical &/or satisfactory explanation. neo nazis and the kkk (I never capitalize the title of such organizations) are obviously against what the USA is all about, ..people living together in harmony. These people (neo nazis & kkk) have a 'point of view' that promotes hate for other Americans. Totally different scenario, so don't evey TRY to compare the two.
I have yet to hear a logical explanation as to how those towers BOTH fell in the same manner, following planes hiting them. ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE GROUND, without any controled demolition, but from a plane hitting it up high near the very top portion of it. And what abt bldg 7, which fell the same way was never hit by a plane? Engineers, architects, and demolition experts all over the WORLD are in awe of how stupid we, as American citizens arre, to buy off on this sh*****.
The attack was to sell the American people on 'war'. Plain & simple. It actually didn't matter to the "CAP" (Clueless American Public), I call 'em --it didn't matter to them WHERE we bombed or which country we attacked. Any Middle Eastern natiion would do. Whichever nation our gov't 'claimed' was responsible, the CAP would've bought off on it w/no problem. That's evident by most of the posts I see in this discussion.
WAKE UP! & SMELL the inside-job COFFEE brewing right under your freakin' NOSES!!, u blind loyalty flag-wavin' IDIOTS!! You have NO EXPLANATION for the unanswered questions, yet u still side w/the gov't bull sh***** story. Lynch mobs do the same thing. Logic & truth is staring them right in the face, but they'll hang the wrong guy, ANYWAY.
I'm DONE here. It's like corresponding to a brick wall.
Peace.
USMC, Ret.
agree..and if you notice we stayed out of saudi arabia where the hijackers were from..gwb too busy holding their hands and kissing their ring in the rose garden
Dude-4015130 - Excellent post, top to bottom.
might have known a jarhead would support the truthers. Just a "SIR! YES, SIR!" (or was that "SIR! AYE AYE, SIR!"?) brick wall indeed.
Let me explain to you that the outer walls carried the structural load and that the inner core only supported the pipes, ventilation, electrical, and elevators. The building wad DESIGNED to grow/ shrink and flex a bit in the wind so the outer walls were connected by the floor trusses to the core rigidly at the outer walls and then thru RUBBER LINKS at the core. Additionally, that core was only "tack welded" instead of being fully thru-welded (sort of like a pile of bricks with only MINIMAL MORTAR) The impacts happened roughly 3/4 and 2/3 of the way up the building and one was CENTERED, the other took out a building corner. the fires not only weakened the steel (no, didn't MELT any - not high enough temperature - but enough to weaken the steel) BUT what it DID do was to burn thru the rubber connections between the floor joists and the core. That transferred the load to the outer walls. the entire corner of impact on the second impacted tower collapsed INWARD and simultaneously the the upper floors started falling and disintegrating - the IMPACT load of several MILLION pounds falling caused the LOWER rubber attachments to fail and BANG BANG BANG... the building FELL. NOW, that's almost (hell, not almost, it WAS) similar to a seismic disturbance (EARTHQUAKE!) things shifted a bit in the first tower hit. VIDEO shows that the central core collapsed FIRST followed by total building collapse. THAT is a synopsis of HOW both building fell.
The rest is details and without a background it is probably difficult to understand. I understoo it QUITE WELL.
Your entire statement doesn't match any architectural or engineering diagrams presented to the 9/11 Commission. You have just made this LIE up.
Why do you feel the need to LIE about 9/11 just to head off a REAL investigation of what you already clain to know the TRUTH about, when no one can claim that they know the TRUTH yet about 9/11/2001?
And why is it that you never voluntarily bring up any acknowledgment or explanation for WTC#7?
TRUTHERS do make the mistake of saying that all three buildings came down the same way. They did not. WTC#1&2 came down in an EXPLOSIVE fashion unexplained by fire, sructural damage, and gravity alone. WTC#7 was IMPLODED.
sorry paul - you don't have a CLUE. The buildings both dropped because of that load xfr to the outer walls (which were stable in compression but let go in BENDING) Once the first 2 floors collapsed onto the lower floors and the outer walls were pulled inward, the drop was ON and there was ABSOLUTELY no way of stopping it. once the load from above built up, the outer walls collapsed as well just due to impact load. Just NEVER try to be a witness in a structural collapse case - BUT I wish I could figure out what you consider to be the issues so that the next time I have to do a case I'm ready to try to explain to a jury of uneducated folks the nuances of you type of viewpoint.
So are you claiming to be an attorney or a professional "expert" witness in structural engineering? Okay expert, please direct us to the architectural drawings of WTC#1&2 which specify the "RUBBER" connections of the floor joists to the inner "tack welded" core. Doesn't rubber burn in any office fire? Seems unlikely that would pass muster on building codes for skyscrapers. I am calling Bullsh!t.
You won't be able to substantiate your "RUBBER" connection claim. Perjurer!
All these conspiracy questions have been answered, but like any conspiracy, no matter what evidence is submitted, the conspiracy theorists will find an irrational reason to reject it. To wit, "the evidence does not correspond with my presumption, therefor it must be wrong."
How can both towers collaps after being hit by planes up high? Well, first, those planes were big, carrying lots of jet fuel. We know each tower was hit by a plane, resulting in the planes exploding into the towers - there is video of that. Second, the towers' design employed the use of steel structural trusses on the perimeter, creating a "structural tube" that carried most of the structural load (as oppossed to the more common use of columns distributed throughout the floor plan); this allowed for a much desired open, flexible floor. When the planes flew into the buildings, they took out some of the steel structural trusses, and the impact weakened others. The resultant fires further weakened the structural steel (jet fuel burns at 800-1500 degrees; steel loses 50% of its strength at 1100 degrees; steel does not have to reach "melting point" to fail). Eventually, enough of the steel trusses lost enough strength to fail, allowing the floors above to collapse and cause a domino effect of a cascade collapse (the BOOM BOOM BOOM of the floors collapsing onto one another would account for the witness that claimed he heard something that sounded LIKE explosions). In addition, the planes took out the central cores, allowing jet fuel to spray down the elevator and utility shafts and ignite fires below. This was confirmed by eye witness accounts of the elevators crashing to the lobby, the doors bursting open, and flames leaping out, and of witnessing people burning.
WTC7 contained a 24,000 gallon deisel fuel tank for use by emergency generators. From the seventh floor up, it utilized a "structural tube" design at the perimeter. When the North Tower collapsed, it severley damaged WTC& and ignited fires, which burned uncontrollably for hours (the fire suppression system was compromised) until the building collapsed around 5PM. Conspirists always look at one side of the building, but images and video of the other side shows more extensive damage, and the outer structure buckling before collapse.
The Pentagon: contrary to conspiracy claims, there was airplane debris outside the building and INSIDE the Pentagon - after impact, the fuselage continued into the building. Also, the plane left a 75 foot diameter hole (bigger than a 747's fuselage) in the facade, but the facade collpased around it shortly afterward, making the hole appear smaller. One should also remember the reinforced concrete structure of the Pentagon was designed to resists blasts, and that is why the damage to the building wasn't more extensive.
not forgetting that the pentagon was RETROFITTED to make it more explosion proof (after and because of Okie City)
Curiously,,,,, it was only that section of the Pentagon, which had received the retrofit, that was then claimed to have been hit by a commercial airliner . That very section was commonly referred to BY FOLKS WORKING THERE as "the CATCHER'S MITT".
WTF happened to WTC 7? Never hit by an airliner but falls in its own footprint...
I know, only suckers obey the law of gravity...
WTC 7 had the unfortunate duty of having the emergency command center in it. there were big generators on the roof fed fuel from 10,000 gallons of storage in the "basement" - fed by either 2 or 3 inch pipes. the flaming debris from the nearest tower HIT 7 square in the lobby area and started a fire. it also broke the power lines to the command centers AND 1 of the FUEL SUPPLY PIPES AS WELL. The system was DESIGNED to start up on external power loss AND IT DID - so did the PUMPS with their own WIRES FROM THE GENERATORS TO THE PUMPS. 1 pipe supplied fuel to run the gen's, 1 gushed fuel and fed its OWN fire. The building design of 7 was not uniform - it was "open" at the ground floors up some 10 stories but at any rate, it was NOT a fully 4 sided structure - it was a 3-1/2 more or less sided structure. A good portion of that structural integrity was compromised during the initial impact of the junk from WTC (1 or 2 - don't remember which one) and the ensuing fire weakened the structure too. The VIDEO CLEARLY shows the collapse starting in the MIDDLE of the building and progressing to the outer walls when the collapse happened.
That's the 10 cent quick version. You need to read LOTS of reports and watch LOTS of videos to understand it all. Remember you don't get to pick and choose what to "believe" and what to "not believe" - it ALL FITS TOGETHER. it all fits - particularly when someone has a knowledge of engineering, mechanics and materials. In this case, it IS "rocket science". OLD ROCKET SCIENCE
Well, I for one am quite happy that someone as smart as yourself with your vast knowledge of engineering, mechanics, and materials is not responsible for building anything.
Buildings don't fall at freefall speed, maybe your too smart in other areas to understand physics and gravity, but things only fall at that speed with only air as resistance.
Buildings don't fall into their own footprints through air. Planes don't vaporize into dust particles.
Shyam Sunder, the NIST "investigator, says that fuel fires had NOTHING to do with the collapse of WTC#7. There you go making stuff up again.
Tell us what "flaming debris" portion of the WTC NORTH TOWER was able to travel all the way to WTC#7.
We should know what floor of WTC#1 it came from and its total mass. Then we can calculate the energy required to launch it laterally 400 feet and still have the energy to puncture a steel structure.
so you're a truther ross - that means that your knowledge of construction and design is NON-EXISTENT. I'm not too worried about the potential competition. And the planes didn't vaporize - that was just your brain on overload. YOU DO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE PICTURES.
BULLS HIT paul - the fires had everything to do with 7 falling - true, the junk penetrated the GLASS FRONT of 7 and smashed the structure but the continuing fire was responsible for weakening the material.
The LIAR from NIST is calling you a worse LIAR. Any piece of the North tower big enough to penetrate WTC#7 and break the emergency generator fuel lines would be recoverable and identifiable. Where is this alleged piece of the North Tower? You are just making sh!t up.
what mixed in with all of the OTHER junk from the collapse? oh, and LIKE IT OR NOT the ties between the floor joists and the inner core WERE RUBBER
here's a good site that debunks essentially all of the bulls hit presented by truthers here
h t t p://w ww. dot debunking911. dot com/index.html (edit to remove the spaces - the http, the www, the . in 2 places) www.debunking911.com/index. h t m l
People are looking for an explanation of why building seven collapsed,since it didn't get hit with a plane.
It just fell down,I guess.
Building seven also had traces of nanothermite.
the nanothermite claim is utter and total BULLS HIT.
No, but it was hit with debris from the collapsing North and South Towers, like so many other buildings int he area, and it had been burning for hours prior to collapsing.
No piece of any significant mass from the South Tower ever came anywhere near WTC#7. If any piece of any significant mass from the North tower struck WTC#7, it should be documented in some part of the 9/11 Commission report; IT DOES NOT APPEAR, so you are just making sh!t up. Burning doesn't explain freefall acceleration for the first 2.8 seconds of the 9 second implosion. Get better informed or STFU.
you are the one to STFU oh fountain of worthless "knowledge"
Any of you heard of "Operation Northwoods" from 1962?
Operation Northwoods proposals included hijackings and explosions followed by the introduction of phony evidence that would implicate the Cuban government.
The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere.
This plan originated within the US Gov.
and frogs grew wings so they wouldn't bump their a$$es when the JUMP, too. Go renew your tin-foil hat and make sure you get REAL tin foil. that aluminium stuff just doesn't do an adequate job of blocking the signals from the mothership.
Over and over the tinfoil hat comment - boring.
Doi you believe your government doesn't lie to you regularly? They only get caught at it all the time.
And by the way, I pretty much believe that 3 of the 4 planes did the damage that day.
the tin foil hat comment is a directed slur at TRUTHERS - they are incapable of observing reality, so they deserve what they GET.
As to whether or not I "believe" the gummint lies to me regularly - of course they LIE. When THEY control the situation they CAN lie - here, the situation was entirely out of gummint control and they COULD NOT MAKE IT UP. Interesting thing - the internet - too much happening too fast for control. The almost instantaneous exchange of info has made if difficult to LIE unless someone WANTS to be lied to (or doesn't have access to the net)
Calling a TRUTHER a tinfoil hatter is akin to calling an African American a NI66ER. The MODERATORS of this blog should incrementally eliminate the privileges here for the repeat practitioners of the tinfoil and black helicopter slur.
We OBSERVE that to date there has not been an investigation of 9/11 with the subpoena power, witness protection power, and security clearances which would allow anyone to believe that they have actually heard the full TRUTH of 9/11/2001. That is our REALITY.
nope - truther is an adjective related to a certain LACK of intelligence. remember one thing - TRUTH IS RELATIVE. the prime ass-h ole truther (Jones) doesn't have a BRAIN in his empty head - and IF he did, he'd take it out and PLAY WITH IT. Why ANYONE even considers his opinion as "valid" is beyond me, but some apparently are convinced that he is the pie-eyed piper of 9/11.
apparently, I have struck a nerve, eh?
If truther is an adjective related to a certain lack of intelligence, what term would be correct to define one who swallows any turd the govt. pitches at him? Questions of intelligence don't apply there. That is happening more on level of the reptilian brain, something along the lines of pure reflex.
Only thing I get from forker's posts is that he takes himself way too seriously.
nope - I put the truther claims at the same level as SCIENTOLOGY - space aliens did it...ROFLMFAO!!
This is no different than the "Birther" organization that adopted a stretch of road in Arizona last August....... Hey it doesn't matter what the organization calls itself as long as free trash and litter pickup gets done and the unionized state workers don't get a piece of it........
Hear, hear.
"The KKK was eventually dropped from the Adopt-A-Highway program for failing to pick up litter." Ok so they wanted their name up there for all to see but when it came time to do the work they bailed? Nice. Beer swilling lazy pathetic slobs couldn't cut it but hey they'll take a sign or two for free that promotes their hatred. Nice. Totally figures for a group like this.