help is coming....you said......

Quote.....cars have killed a lot of people, but I have not heard anyone advocating banning cars......EndQuote

First, automobiles are NOT designed for the express purpose of killing human beings.

Second, automobiles are rarely used as instruments of murder.

Third, automobiles have been continuously and extensively upgraded and modified so as to make their operation safer.

Fourth, firearms GREATLY facilitate the slaughter of innocent human beings. That is a FACT. Anyone who opposes reasonable firearms regulations is complicit in that slaughter.

Another example of a gun just flying off on its own and shooting people.Very strict gun control is needed!. And declare the NRA as a supporter of terrorism. See you after the next shooting!

See, now if these little kids were able to practice their Dog-given 2nd Amendment rights, they could have all been armed and taken the shooter out.

**End Sarcasm**

you people are ridiculous. you're fighting about cars and knives and guns.... there were children in danger today. this has more to do with our failing society than it does with any one individual and their access to whatever object they want to use as a weapon.

get off the horses and put your feet on the friggin' ground.

yaypolitics,

You hit the nail on the head. The issue isn't with tools; it's with the society and families we grow up in. I was watching TV the other day and realized that almost every good show involves violence. I mean to the point where every show is predicated on the goal of killing another human being. When kids grow up watching this crap (and playing this crap on their XBox or whatever) how can we be surprised when they're desensitized to it? How can we be surprised when they think it's somewhat normal?

These criminals have decided to commit the highest crime in our nation on a public stage; they are NOT going to be concerned that they're carrying something illegal. What's 10 more years tacked on to 4 life sentences? Outlawing tools will just make another tool the tool of choice. I understand peoples' desire to "do something" but outlawing firearms is a pseudo-response. We need a real response to the underlying problem of our culture.

We need to get back to teaching some values to our children so they understand why a human life is precious.

• 
  
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• 
  
• 
  
• STUPID gun nuts and their gun culture!!!!!

Is this going on like everyday now???

Every day we see the news there's a lunatic shooting at people somewhere?

You know, there's an incident with 22 children being slashed in China, so I am okay with looking at gun laws, because I am not one of the vaporheads who things no guns should be allowed by anyone at all (anti-constitutional anyway) nor do I think you get to own a tank just because you have the money. Somewhere, common sense people need to have the arguement and win over the knuckleheads. But obviously violence is being committed with other weapons too. (@Sarah, yeah, I do not consider you one of the vaporheads, so don't worry :D )

But aside from that, there's a pathetic need for violent attention that isn't just in one country alone. From the Oregon shooter, to China to this....there's a sad, narcisitic, very wimpy and pathetic, yet entirely dangerous, if infantile, need for attention that people who commit these acts of violence against children seem to have. And while we really don't know specifically about the cases that just happened, since they have to be fully investigated, it certainly seems true with other cases, like the Norway shooter, or Columbine, or Virginia Tech.

So what is it that has people go into violent mode and attack defenseless people...kids no less? I, for one, have a hard time watching it make front page news. It is news, after all, yet with all the attention it garners, it only gives the killer what they seem to have wanted.

Leave it at that. I think if there was a simple solution, it would have been found already. But I think it needs to start being thought about in that regard.

Alechild, I doubt a metal detector would stop someone from coming into a school when his intention is to shoot people.. Pretty sure the gun going off would give him away, right?

Daniel564

An alarm sounds BEFORE a gun.

Banning guns.... great idea. Because it's so hard to get pot, cocaine, or anything else that floats your boat. Because DC and Chicago did the same thing and had the highest gun violence rates in the country for 25 years. And Prohibition worked great in the 1920s and early 30's, too!

Yes, sounds logical to me!

PJ-518978 um what????.....reading comprehension is a good thing....try it sometime!!!!

Derek - I hear what you are saying and I dont think there is a good solution.

maybe there's a reason suicide in japan is regarded as noble.

maybe it's far more noble to just off yourself, and only yourself, than to take a whole bunch of people down with you. maybe they already had this problem, and praising single suiciders was the solution.

it seems warped to be happy that someone offed themselves...but when the alternative is they take a bunch of people out with them, maybe it's not such a bad alternative.

and it's cheaper than medicating these people in mental health institutions when the reality is, they'll likely never get right in the head.

i know there are a lot of people who disagree with me, but sometimes you have to reinforce the best of the worst behaviour, simply because the alternative is that much worse.

@Dude,

Believe it or not, legally speaking, it actually is a fundamental right to be mentally ill, or "crazy," as you put it.

Now, behavior is another matter!

Do some homework on the point and you'll see.

The cars argument is a tad old. Let's replace it with alcohol instead. Alcohol serves no real medicinal purpose and how many deaths have some aspect of alcohol intertwined with them? Know why no one wants to get rid of it? becuase Dems and Repubs, gun owners and gun haters all drink. When you talk of banning something that people like, they freak out. Just like gun owners do not want to hear of all guns being banned. Personally, this country's inability to effectively treat and combat mental illness is a real issue, and will onyl get worse. Guns or no guns, you'll see people lashing out in violent ways.

RonB from Pittsburgh

1. No new guns in this country for civilian use for a generation. You can buy and sell existing guns. Law-abiding gun owners will take care of theirs. Criminals will tend not to, and will tend to have theirs confiscated when they are arrested. At the end of a generation, very few criminals will have or be able to get guns.

2. To drive a car, you have to take a test. To buy a gun, you have to take two. One is psychological.

3. If your gun is stolen or lost, and you don't report it, and it ends up being used in a crime, you get the same sentence as the criminal.

Problem not solved, but significantly reduced.

#1: Yeah, great idea. It's not like you can't bring in guns from outside the country with our big, wonderful, open borders. No one ever smuggled booze in from Canada back in the day. No one brings drugs over the borders now, either.

#2: This already exists in Connecticut, New York, and lots of other states. You cannot get a gun legally w/o a license, and you cannot get a license with any record of mental illness.

#3: So this will extend to stolen cars too, right?

@Jessica. Well, suicide is certainly another kind of problem. My only problem with suicide is that someone should be able to do it when it is proven that they are fully mentally capably. Committing suicide does not indicate mental imbalance. That's a religious ideal installed in a medical institution. Easiest example of that is someone terminally ill and in pain.

But back to us. You know, it seems we humans like to congregate in large groups. This is where these shooters go. And when I mean large, I do mean in places with over 10 people. And preferably, a lot larger than that. We're social creatures, for the most part. And for the most part, social creatures also have outcasts. Am I wrong for citing alienation as one of the problems with these shooters? You know, whatever was going on for them, they didn't feel included in society in some way?

And, then, of course, there's the distinction between getting alienated and why the hell that then goes and means you should go kill people over it. Specifically strangers. I'm no psychologist or psychiatrist but I can't help but think it has something to do with that.

Anyone who thinks that means having sympathy for a killler is wrong. What it means is it is a bit too late to handle the problem once bullets or knives or whatever starts flying. The problem should be identified beforehand, and ACTED on.

clflan2-1

I laugh at the fools that think they can ban or take our guns away here in America

So would I if I ever encountered someone who is serious about this as a viable thing to do. The reasonable people only think it shouldn't be so easy for a person who might use the weapon violently to obtain. Yes, criminals with the will would still be able to get them. It just becomes a hell of a lot more serious if you get caught with a gun you shouldn't have. See my previous remark.

It would be foolish to try and confiscate the legal weapons belonging to law abiding citizens - no doubt at all. Not an option. But we would be foolish not to do all we can to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous people. Even if it meant changing the constitution- lives saved would make it worth it.

Hal, It is impossible to prevent bad things from happeing in life and part of living in a Free Society is having to put up with wacko's everyday of the year. It is a pipe dream to think anything else. The will never ever be a Utopia on the Planet Earth.

@LWNJ Mark, do gun advocates tend towards some kind of car fetish? Why are cars always brought up? How many people have their cars stolen without reporting it? Geez.

It's because every year, cars kill more people than guns. Everyone (pretty much) owns a car, but no one (pretty much) wants to ban them. That's why. A thing is a thing.

It's always the sweet kid who has never caused trouble before - and would seem normal but for being a drunk, having just lost his job, and facing eviction. He's your kid, your nephew, and your neighbor and until you make an effort to get involved you can leave my rights out of your problems.

The greatest beneficiary of gun violence is the anti-gun Hollywood.

@Kaybeetoys: I should have added the word, 'necessarily.'

But you know you can't go back and edit stuff after like 5 minutes.

However, you'll know that to be true if you listen to actual psychologists or psychiatrists themselves. At least ones who think and are worth their title.

Banning guns is a band aid solution. This is a societal epidemic brought on by poor parenting, lackluster education, and a culture that glorifies deviance and spits in the face of spirituality, hard work, personal empowerment, and self restraint. We need leaders who see beyond the surface and can develop solutions that will actually solve problems. Unfortunately our representatives (Republicans and Democrats alike) have proven themselves unbelievably terrible at doing anything more than spouting rhetoric and pushing crappy legislation with one primary goal - to gain power and get re-elected.

The most troubling thing about all of this is apparently we have a large number of people in our culture that think wrecking lives through the killing of others is a mechanism to give them some sense of worth or acknowledgement in our society. Not sure what other motives they might have but obviously we have many people amongst us who think killing others somehow either validates them or gives them some sort of release. And the fact that so much of this is occurring probably means it is not going to stop until out society takes steps to curtail this behavior.

Kudos should be given to the Oregon authorities for the quick response and handling of the mall shooting earlier this week.

Maybe as crazy as it sounds we start having metal detectors and screening at every public facility. I don't know how you fix this or stop it, but this will not end soon or go away without a concerted effort by all of us to accept actions and changes that many will not like to curtail this activity.

At least here in the Dallas area most schools are locked after the students enter for the day and actually a few high schools do have metal detectors for the students to go through to enter school.

No easy fixes for this and lots of people are going to be unhappy about what is done to fix it, if we start addressing the problem. That should be obvious.

Barlow-1919963:
Wow!! Now the NRA will want 1st graders packin' heat!!!

Don't you remember "Naked Gun 33 1/3?" The scene where the cop opens the kid's backpack and pulls the gun out.

At least, I am pretty sure it was that movie.

George Hayduke Sr - George it is a wild exaggeration to even think that Obama will do anything to impose any sort of gun control in America. Gun advocates make every single attempt to put any limitation of guns, bullets, who can own them as some sort of slippery slope. What possible move by our government can a gun advocate point to in the past 50 years that has seriously impaired their ability to own as many and whatever types of guns or ammo that they want? The Assault Ban? Nope. You can still buy assault rifles, sniper rifles, etc. Hell you can buy a .905 cal sniper rifle! The only thing that the slippery slope argument shows is the gun lobby's use of fear mongering to get what they want.

I am not against overturning the 2nd Amendment, but there is no good reason why anyone in this country should be allowed to own an assault rifle, a sniper rifle, kevlar piercing rounds, etc. Gun advocates need to be willing to make concessions as well. And don't even remotely suggest that the gun laws on the books are enough...they clearly aren't.

Get with the program, NBCNews. ABC is already reporting at least a dozen kids dead. Absolutely tragic.

STOP publishing the names of these idiots that do this. Their life problems should go to the unmarked grave with them.

Reports are at least 27 dead, including 14 children. These are preliminary reports, which may explain why it isn't reported here yet (for your edification, Duderino - if you don't like the coverage here, quit yoiur whining and go to another site and stay there).

Guy was apparently a parent and was armed with at least one Glock. Very sad.

I have a hard time fighting for either side. Im not a gun nut by any means, however I do own guns and conceal carry. That being said, for the last goddamn time stop comparing cars to guns. Cars are designed for transport. Ive never met nor found ANYONE who decided they wanted to get in a accident. So comparing car deaths due to accidents vs gun deaths due to someone with the intention to kill is completely and utterly stupid.

Now, I could care less whether I own my guns or not. I was perfectly safe for the 23 years prior to owning any, and I would still feel safe even w/o them. I do not think we should ban guns, but something needs to be done about the out of control gun culture in America. Every legal gun owner is on a very thin line between a law abiding citizen and a criminal. All I simply have to do is use my gun ONCE in an inappropriate way and suddenly im a criminal.(That's true for EVERY legal gun owner). Crime is what the problem is. A high gun area or a low gun area makes no difference. Guns don't deter crime. If that were true than we should fill compton with guns. The problem is the gun culture. People see it as means to kill and it does it effectively. More guns on the street does not make it safer the way more cars on the road would make us accident free. People who want to ban guns cant make any stand because the 2nd amendment touting idiots dont want to admit that the culture of guns has serious flaws. Any regulations or laws are looked at taking away your freedoms. Its not and until both sides wake the @!$%# up, we will be stuck with people getting killed everyday. People need to learn how to respect the gun, properly use it, maintain it , and store it. (Such as everyone does for cars with a drivers license).

*You will always have people who use the equipment incorrectly.

*Taking away all the laws on cars would only lead to greater destruction on our roads. Guns are at that point right now.

*A guy going into a mall armed with a shovel is less likely to kill a ton of people than a guy going in with a gun. Guns kill effectively and that's all their is to it.

Why do so many of you keeping using that term "liberal"? I seriously doubt that you even understand what that means. just because someone is towards the center in relation to a conservative position does not mean that they are a liberal. Liberal is an extreme position. Slight tax increases, slightly increased gun control, etc are moderate positions....not only a liberal position.

Sam-1938777 - Well said.

I see the car argument again.

Cars are made with the purpose of transportation. If you have a license to drive and kill someone, they'll investigate to see if you did something wrong. If you didn't, then its not your fault. A gun or pistol is manufactured to kill people. There is a BIG difference.

We all know that guns don't kill people by themselves, but our Nation's culture is becoming one of anger and hate, and instability. These lunatics we hear and see everyday are not your typical hoodlums, drug dealers, or even criminals of any type. They're most times regular people who breakdown for different everyday reasons.

We have to deal with gun laws and regulations now. Especially, in a country like ours that is the most armed country in the world.

Left Wing Nut Job - So you're saying you get all of your news from one source? That's a great way to become brainwashed by the media.

5 to 10 year-old kids describing a shooting.

What an education for elementary school kids!

Hi, DB.

Would love to chat, but this same old argument has given me a headache, and the news about the children has made me sad and sick.

Personally, I live in the woods, and I need my guns. Feral animals, rabid animals, and men who think a woman living alone is easy prey make them necessary at times.

A minute of search showed homicide rate per 100000, across the globe:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

It really doesn't support either side of the gun debate. Countries have murders related to their cultures, not their gun laws!

What a terrible tragedy.

So many idiots defending their guns instead of taking a hard look at a society that spits these nuts out regularly. Look how many KIDS these GUNS killed.

How is irrational fear of taxes, blaming Bush, or governmental control applicable to anything here?

Sarah, I think you missed the point of Eva's post about how strident and uncompromising liberals can be.

And I agree with Eva.... our concern here should be on the victims, the children!

First of all this shooting is a complete tragedy. My condolences to the family/friends of the 26 victims.

As was mentioned several times above until people are willing to address & fix the root cause of these violent rampages nothing will change. Blaming inanimate objects is not going to change anything.

We as a society need to figure out why so many people are flipping out & going off the deep end. Years ago before the Gun Control Act of 1968, signed by President Johnson, guns were easier to obtain than they are today.

Back then, prior to the Gun Control Act, you could order guns by mail order & have them sent directly to your house. No background checks, no safe guards, nothing! Yet people back then were not shooting up their workplaces, schools, or shopping centers...What has changed with people/society?

Fix the root cause & quit blaming guns. Someone yesterday responded to me with a link showing that shooting rampages have quadrupled in the last 50 years. While shooting rampages have increased murders by firearms have been declining.

As you can see below (FBI stats) murders by firearms have been dropping, yet NICS checks ( National Instant Criminal Background Check System) & gun ownership have been increasing.

There are an estimated 85+ million gun owners in the U.S. with an estimated 270+ million guns.

While it isn't any consolation to the family/friends of murder victims a fraction of 1% of the 270+ million firearms are used in committing murder every year...In 2011 8,583 murders were committed by firearms out of 12,664 murders. Guns might be the weapon of choice but they are not the cause.

Trying to punish or blame 85+ million gun owners for the acts of deranged people who murder isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

Total Murders by year;

2006-15,087

2007-14,916

2008-14,224

2009-13,752

2010-12,996

2011-12,664

Total Murders by firearms

2006-10,225

2007-10,129

2008-9,528

2009-9,199

2010-8,775

2011-8,583

Number of NICS checks per year

2006-10,000,000

2007-11,000,000

2008-12,000,000

2009-14,000,000

2010-14,560,000

2011-15,142,400

More than 18 kids killed!! They are saying now that this is the WORST school shooting ever! I'm in tears right now.

No, Duderino, I am not like those that only sit around on Web sites to complain about how they cover, or don't cover, news. That is not gathering news from various sources, that is being a jerk. But at least you are very good at pretending how broad your knowledge is while proving otherwise.

Incidentally, a good news source will verify and be careful about posting "news" as opposed to placating low-information folks with supposed "facts" before they are proven.

Where is this country headed? Why these things happen here the most? It is insane and barbaric to kill innocent people.

RIP little ones.

Vin1112, you obviously have a deep-seated hatred of our president - thank you for using such a sad occasion to show your small mindedness.

IRESPOND-2315268

You know what they will say now is not the time to discuss gun control.

Should we also be allowed to own chemical weapons? Biological weapons? Nukes? Those all qualify under the "guns don't kill people" argument?

My heart breaks for these families.....another CRIMINAL with gun....Illinois give me my conceal/carry so I can protect my family...law abiding citizens DO NOT need more laws lets just do automatic death penalties for these cowards...everyone hug your children & be greatful they are safe & not attacked by a sick S.O.B that is too cowardly to just take his own life & leave the innocent safe.

ME,

a culture that glorifies deviance and spits in the face of spirituality,

Because religious and/or spiritual people have never killed innocents?

@Sarah - whats your point? Agnostics and atheists have killed innocents as well as spiritualists and devotees. That doesn't change the fact that our culture demonizes and makes fun of those that seek betterment through spiritual means. It in fact glorifies HAVING problems above WORKING TO SOLVE problems and improving oneself. Anyone who is seen as a 'goody-two-shoes' is vilified.

Yet people back then were not shooting up their workplaces, schools, or shopping centers

Yes they were. There's been plenty of shooting rampages throughout history.

Trying to punish or blame 85+ million gun owners for the acts of deranged people who murder isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

With respect, whenever somebody suggests keeping guns out of the hands of deranged people, some of those 85+ million gun owners cry foul and start spouting off about freedom. An obstacle, any obstacle, that prevents anybody from owning guns is seen as a bad thing. Whether it is law abiding citizens, criminals, or the mentally unsound.

I am not a gun advocate nor am I against owning guns. I am just a concerned American Citizen. That being said, here are some figures from the Australian Police after they banned citizens owning guns.The citizens were forced to turn the guns in so they could be destroyed. It cost the Australian tax payers 500 million dollars. So here are the figures since the ban took effect a little over a year ago.

Homicides up 3.2 % !!

Assaults up 8.6% !!

Armed Robberies up 44% !!

Homicides with Firearms up 300% !!

Time to re-think the banning of firearms. "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns", I did not completely understand that until I read these figures.

These poor children are now traumatized by this event, they are not traumatized by the guns used though. They are traumatized by the person using the guns. My prayers to the kids and their families.

For those arguing for more religion--America is more "Christian" than Canada or Europe but has far more violent crimes.

For those arguing for the holy 2nd amendment and that the easy availability of guns have nothing to do with gun violence in America--America has far more gun violence than Canada or Europe, ever wonder why?

Can someone explain with America is a far more violent society than Canada or Europe. BTW, AFAIK, Canadians play the same video games.

Rhetoric resolves nothing--it only increases tension. In the end, the answers are that you can't cure crazy and you can't always tell who's normal, who's crazy or who will go crazy under the right conditions. Gun control is only effective in the hands of the person holding the gun. You can't take away guns from the responsible folks and the ones who are irresponsible aren't likely to hand over their weapons without a fight. You can't ban guns because someone will find a way to get one, regardless of the law.

MANY LITTLE CHILDREN DIED TODAY AT THIS SCHOOL--DON'T ANY OF YOU CARE?

Show some respect, people. There are a lot of parents, a lot of families that are now mourning for their beloved children. The families of the principal and the psychologist are mourning the loss of their loved ones too. Your inane rhetoric means nothing.

Offer your condolences to the families, offer your prayers if you pray (and STFU if you don't). If you can't write something supportive or constructive about this situation, then kindly refrain from posting.

BenSnead:

Oh good God. Please name ONE, just ONE, law Obama has signed that deals with gun control.

Obama, Hillary, and Eric (with)Holder all have made it very clear they don't like the 2nd Amendment. Their words and actions speak volumns on the subject... those liberals who would deny this are deluding themselves!

There is zero evidence what you say is true.

Come up with one example, just one, that Obama, Hillary etc "don't like the 2nd Amendment" (whatever that even means).

Incidentally, "because Rush said so" isn't evidence.

So this is what we've come to as a society. Each twisted psychopath trying to out do the last.

My thoughts and prayers are with the families of the victims of this tragedy.

Anyone claiming the purpose of guns is not to kill other humans has no understanding of history. When firearms were first invented the sole purpose was to kill other humans. The Chinese created the first firearms and the knowledge was eventually brought to Europe where it was refined. The use of guns for sport and protection occurred much later. Millions of people throughout history have been killed by guns. To deny that fact is to try to deny history.

A minority of people might call for a ban on guns, another minority of people believe everyone should have a gun and a majority of people think there should be common sense gun laws.

Here we are again. Another day, more senseless killing of innocents. More foolish people shouting at each other from behind their blog monikers. The same tired arguments, the same tired excuses and perhaps as many as two dozen children killed just 11 days before Christmas.

I don't know which is sadder, you people or the tragedy at that little school.

You need to calm down and get a grip on reality.

I heard a reporter from England talking about the election a couple of months back and she was asked what the English/Europeans thought about America.

She said they all wonder what is wrong with America and our obsession with guns and religion.

Here we have another gun-related tragedy with maybe as many as 20 children killed and the pro-gun and anti-gun folks are posting rants about gun control instead of concern for the surviving children and the parents of the dead children.

The Europeans are right. You are all crazy.

Too bad the parents of the 20 year old shooter didn't kill their own child years ago.

Sarah:

I noticed that nobody answered your questions.

That's because their answer is too ridiculous to speak out loud. They have to whisper it to each other in their echo chamber. To wit: Obama sold guns to the drug cartels in Mexico, so that they would shoot people in America, giving them an excuse to ban guns. You know, because there aren't Americans randomly shooting kids in schoolyards daily. Also, they are banking on the UN to ban guns globally, so that they can send their non-existent army to our doors to take away our guns. But of course, they would use Obama's private army of youth volunteers to do that.

Luckily, they've banned Sharia Law, so we don't have to worry about that anymore.

Good grief, can we find out what happened first before launching the tired and utterly predictable gun debate?

Well what do you know? Looky here!

A sane question from a voice of reason in a sea of low-rent, low IQ and mindless anti-gun trash talking posts. Kudos to you, AG.

Not that your question will cause them to stop and think and get all the FACTS before spouting their nonsensical drivel. Jeesms!

btone

I don't really care about guns. I do laugh, though, at all the tough guys who use their guns as a replacement for a spine.

Or a penis. I really don't have a problem with folks who are genuinely hunters or who genuinely live somewhere where they feel like they need a gun for protection. What I don't understand is the swaggering, macho gun culture. They are fools and they are crazy and they are one bad day or unintended insult away from shooting any one of us.

im starting to think a lot of you are the crazy people we should be reporting to the authorities to ensure another elementary school, mall, or whatever isnt shot up...

clearly, this nutcase isnt the only one missing a few sandwiches in his picnic basket.

good grief people...many of you should be locked up so the rest of us arent destroyed by your insanity.

I'm just wondering. I've seen dozens and dozens of posts about guns being responsible, but nothing about the man who actually did this. Is he not responsible? I've even seen a few posts saying "it's the guns fault". Hmmm, I do believe it takes a person to commit this act. Imagine this, if this guy wanted to take out some kids, and guns were completely illegal here and he couldn't get access to them, maybe he would have gone Timothy McVeigh on them, taking out the entire school instead. Why is no one blaming him?

And for those on here who say the NRA is at fault, do any of you know what the NRA proposes, or do you just repeat MSNBC talking points. Because you may want to actually look it up. They do not make firearms, nor require anyone to buy them. They exist to support the 2nd amendment. Also, they are for having training and background checks before purchasing any guns. Do you not agree with this?

But there is nothing more violent or that glorifies the gun culture more than video games. Say what you will about free enterprise and parenting, blah, blah, blah, it damn well takes a village... or a global world... to raise today's children, and when today's global world says it's okay to flood juvenile minds with the graphic virtual reality of video games and the gaming community that is so real it can make you want to stay in that world instead of the miserable one you were born into, what the hell do you expect these kids to grow up and become?

THAT is where your gun culture has come from... NOT from the NRA and citizens who are responsible gun owners. The world is not real to these people, and neither are the people they interact with. They, themselves, are not even real. They are just blips on a computer screen.

Mimi, I must disagree with you on this statement. Being a part of a generation the grew up with video games, this is nothing more than an excuse to avoid parental responsibility. It is the same as blaming music and television for the Columbine shooting. Even before the days of video games, there was a gun madness in this country, however it was not quite as.... omnipresent as it is today. Someone who has difficulty distinguishing fantasy from reality is someone who is mentally ill, even without the presence of the video game culture. And given the overall saturation that video games have had, world wide, if the issue were what you had stated, then there would be far more instances of not only shootings, but hit and runs, decapitations, disembowlments, pikings, stabbings, immolations, bombings, beatings and I could go on and on about the wide variety of things one can do within the realm of video games.

The fact of the matter is so long as we shift blame to things that are otherwise neutral, then there will be no rectification of the problem. This is no different than what Tipper Gore tried to do with music, or what the PTC tries to do with television.

As I read through these comments, I'm struck by the hate and vitriol coming from both sides of the gun control argument...

I grew up in Texas and was taught by my grandfather from a very early age that guns are not toys and that they are to be respected at all times. He taught me the proper way to handle and shoot a gun, and that a gun is only ever to be used for hunting and self defense. I shot my first gun at 9 years old and have continued to shoot to this very day.

I voted for Obama, I believe in social issues and justice, and I own guns. But I don't wake up in the morning and go "I think I'm going to go and shoot up a mall/school/movie theater because I have a gun and guns are supposed to kill people". I was taught better.

These days, I live in California. A state with the most restrictive gun laws in the country. We have a 10 day waiting period, limits on the magazine capacity of all guns, and they're damned expensive. Yes, it's difficult for me to purchase a gun but it's something I'm willing to put up with as part of being a responsible, law-abiding gun owner. But there's a catch... I hear a lot of drum beating about banning guns but guess what? Automatic weapons are completely illegal in California along with extended capacity magazines. Yet if i was so inclined, I could drive across the bay bridge to a myriad number of neighborhoods in Oakland, ask a couple questions and pick up a fully automatic AK-47, Uzi, MP5 or any number of fully automatic weapons and the extended capacity (50 - 100 round) magazines to accompany said weapon for a couple hundred dollars and no background check... I don't believe that banning guns is the answer (and realistically, it's not going to happen thanks to the Constitution) but I am in favor of the checks and restrictions I have to go through here in California to purchase a gun. But it's not going to stop someone who wants to purchase a gun from getting one on the black market and unfortunately that's just the reality of the situation. I'm sure I'm going to get flamed from one side or another, or both, but I figured I'd attempt to bring a little rationality to a heated and emotional discussion.

-DPM

Put down the gun. Pass the doobie. America needs to chill out!

The guns...the guns...the guns. Every time...the guns. Never mind the people behind the trigger. Ban them? Hmmm...okay, then the cartels will just turn to gun-running instead of drug-smuggling, and we will have a whole new set of problems on our hands. Probably more money in guns, anyway. Border wars? Indeed. Complete with all the firepower that entails the meaning of the word "war". It is the law of supply and demand.

Mark from Bridgeport

RonB from Pittsburgh

1. No new guns in this country for civilian use for a generation. You can buy and sell existing guns. Law-abiding gun owners will take care of theirs. Criminals will tend not to, and will tend to have theirs confiscated when they are arrested. At the end of a generation, very few criminals will have or be able to get guns.

2. To drive a car, you have to take a test. To buy a gun, you have to take two. One is psychological.

3. If your gun is stolen or lost, and you don't report it, and it ends up being used in a crime, you get the same sentence as the criminal.

Problem not solved, but significantly reduced.

#1: Yeah, great idea. It's not like you can't bring in guns from outside the country with our big, wonderful, open borders. No one ever smuggled booze in from Canada back in the day. No one brings drugs over the borders now, either.

So you would rather do nothing because perfection can't be achieved? Great plan.

#2: This already exists in Connecticut, New York, and lots of other states. You cannot get a gun legally w/o a license, and you cannot get a license with any record of mental illness.

#3: So this will extend to stolen cars too, right?

Oh, please, not with the car argument again. In addition to everyone else who has thoroughly debunked it already in this thread, let me add this: on a per-use basis, which is more effective at killing or maiming? And on a per-theft basis?

I have to agree with the commenter above who likened gun fetishes to addiction. The depth of denial is just jaw-dropping.

Back when the West was really wild, everyone carried a gun or had a gun with them at all times. There were NEVER any mass murders at schools or churches or in town on Saturday when everyone was there doing their weekly shopping. This isn't about guns or gun control. Stop making this a political stage. These families are devastated.

If we really want to blame something blame it on two things. HATE and Drugs. Hate is everywhere. You don't have to look any further than this comment page to see vicious hate. Illegal and legal drug use is altering people's perceptions of right and wrong. Illegal drugs are everywhere. Absolutely everywhere. Legal drugs flushed down the toilet are in our drinking water.

Drugs and hate -- Each person needs to get their hate under control. You don't have to be religious to know that revenge is deadly. You don't have to be saintly to know that illegal drugs destroy everyone and everything they touch . . . look at the condition Mexico has got itself into . . . that's coming to the US before Islam can take us over

Wake up. Stop clinging to the easy gun control issue to express your hate. NRA, gets your damn politics off of this grief stricken event. Go after the drug dealers . . . God after the child abusers in the home . . . Go after the bullies . . . before its too late and America turns to Islam as the answer . . . just like the men in prison are turning to Islam because the system has failed them.

Wake up while there is still time for us to actually fix our problems.

Stop the hate and the revenge will end with it.

Someday, hopefully soon, our society and culture will grow up and do something about this destructive "gun culture" we live in. But probably not, as we won't be allowed to talk about it because it's "too soon", and by the time we CAN talk about it, the next mass shooting will have occurred.

What a sad and tragic day this is...

now our president will come on and say "OUR THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS ARE WITH THESE FAMILYS" (thank you M.M.Ohair for taking prayer out of our schools!!!) When as a nation we who find a manger scene and the 10 comandments offend and have gone away from the foundation this nation was built upon!!!!!! (i think it was the almighty can`t tell anymore)BUT NOW WE CAN PRAY!!!!!!!!!!!!! AS WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING ALL ALONG!!! AS OUR VETS COME HOME IN CASKETS.... ON 9-11. HOW MANY MORE SCHOOL SHOOTINGS? PRAY???? IF YOU DON`T THINK THIS WILL HAPPEN AGAIN WITH MORE DEAD YOUR A BUNCH OF FOOLS!! IT WILL THAN WE CAN PRAY......AS WE MOVE FURTHER AWAY THE ENEMY TAKES HOLD....

I grew up long ago listening to the radio and watching in amazement as the TV developed. Everyone had guns them, my father , his father , my friends fathers. We played cowboys and indians pretending to shoot each other. We watched Roy Rogers and Wanted Dead or Alive and Gunsmoke where guns were used. But things like this did not happen.

The society has changed. That's what's causing this behavior today.

This is a mental health issue, if memory serves me correctly all these recent mass shootings have been perpetrated by people in their late teens to mid twenties. Having spoken to my brother, a physician he told me this is the age group where almost all psychotic breaks occur. We need to re-open the mental health facilities that have been closed over the past 2-3 decades, profitability should not be an issue here.

I grew up watching war, western, police, thriller, and horror movies, around guns, shot my first real gun at 8 years old, had a friend that lived on a farm and had a .22 rifle at 12 years old, I got my first pellet gun at 7 years old, we never had things like this happen, we never thought about doing things like this. Most gun owners are responsible, all gun owners I know are responsible and follow all the rules.

Most people with a cwp are the first to step down and walk away, pulling the weapon is a lot of trouble and you better have good reason or you will pay a steep price. I know two people who have used a gun in self defense and neither would be here had they not, 1 lost his girlfriend to a nut with a gun and he shot and killed the gunman in self defense. I myself had a situation when I used to manage my building and told a "family" that was vandalizing the property to leave. The eldest "child" late teens to early twenties charged me with a machete, I was back peddling to make space and was drawing my weapon at the same time, the mother saw and recognized my motions and stepped in front of the son and steered him to the side, she showed no inclination to stop him until she saw my motion, I hate to think how this would have ended had I not been armed and have my cwp.

There are two sides to this coin, mental health care needs to be brought back, the price of not having it is way to high.

Blaming guns for this crime is a very basic straw man argument of the liberal mind.

It isn't the implement of crime that is at fault, it is the person.

My 'oh so scary' Colt M4 has yet to spontaneously go on a shooting spree and kill people, funny it hasn't made me want to be a criminal either.

Same with my dozens of straight razors and handguns. None have made me want to be a criminal, contrary to liberal minds who blame crime on the implements.

What is with all these posts being collapsed, this censorship by NBC/Newsvine needs to stop, people have a right to post and have their posts read, we also should not have to uncollapse these posts in order to read them.

What a horrible, senseless tragedy. My thoughts and prayers are with all the vicitims and their families during this time.

let us stop collapsing comments , just because they have a different opinion;

In almost every state a person under 21 , can not purchase a handgun.

two; this is like acting out a video game, killing for the sake of killing.

three; when the background on this POS, ( who now reside for all eternity in Hell; is known there will be signs of a building mental derangement.

How can a 20 year old have so much hate and rage is beyond belief, some one somewhere must have had a suspicion, but did not want to get involved.

if the other person is taken alieve, it will help put the pieces together;

I can't believe those who stand their ground on no gun controls. We as a country all know about our 2nd amendment but we all seem to forget that when it was written they had muzzle loaders. I also hate it when those from the NRA state, guns don't kill people, people kill people. If you think about it, a gun can't kill unless someone pulls the trigger so to me people kill people. For those who think we should all be carrying a weapon are also crazy because in reality when shooting starts everyone will be shooting at each other. We will never be able to completely stop the crazies because none of us really knows what will push us over the edge but we can make it harder to access weapons. The NRA are not concerned about the safety of our children because they are more interested in how much money the can get from you. Get real America and realize that those in the NRA are for the money and all those who are members are assisting their greed and allowing them to make their money through fear. I know there are those who are die hard gun owners but no one is saying we should take that right away but you must admit that if you have stricter gun controls need to be implemented. Our kids are being killed and if you think doing nothing about guns is acceptable then you are as crazy as those killers and shouldn't be allowed to have guns.

And you still cant figure out why these people are attacking kids? Who does it benefit? If your upset with the country or its direction why wouldn't you attack the law makers or the agencies of govt.?

The real purpose of these attacks is to move the country to gun confiscation. If you took a car and rammed through a fence during recess you'd end up killing more children than with a gun.

Yes cars are not made for killing people but they do kill over 30,000 every year.

Dont give in. Demand that the government hold hearings on the CIA's manchurian candidate programs that have been in existence since the 50s. Sirhan Sirhan was one of these CIA brain washed people. Ive seen a video of the CIA psychiatrist that did Sirhan's brainwashing. He admitted to everything. Within a couple of weeks of making this video he was killed. Tell the gov. that you want them to account for every single CIA agent, handler, psychiatrist, and contracted individual. IF you do that you will find the people that are behind this.

@2q3RtzL0w

This has nothing to do with liberals, you need to educate yourself, I consider myself to be centrist, but some of my conservative friends consider me a liberal, and some of my liberal friends consider me to be conservative, but we can discuss our differences and sometimes we agree to disagree, but we are still friends. We need to stop dividing ourselves with labels, we are Americans and we have different views on certain issues, but we also have common ground, we need to be able to come together on our common ground and discuss our differences and compromise or just agree that we disagree civilly.

Sarah and others.

"slightly increased gun control as a possible solution."

Please explain how that is working out for those in and around Chicago? How about New YorK.

Both places with extreme gun control.

Only a liberal can see a problem and decide more of something will solve a problem.

Problem with Murder, it must be guns, we need more gun control, never mind that guns only account for 2/3 murders. On top of places with less gun control laws have less problems.

Problem with Poverty, tax more, even though in the last 60 years of taxing to help the poor, we have spent trillions and we have the same amount of poor.

Problem with Education, spend more, but as Chicago and DC show that spending more doesn't actually improve anything, and right now we have more teachers per pupil than any time and history.

Next, they will try to tell you if you are fat, you just need to eat more.

Then say if you are in debt you just need to spend more, oh wait they already say that.

Holy Sh*t......I knew there would be some comments about gun control and banning them but this is insane. 18 children killed, young children and all you morons can do is argue stupid as* politics? You want to know what is wrong with society and people today? Then look no further than this board right here. Everyone wants to argue about who is right and wrong and non of you idiots are talking about the kids or the fact that there are a bunch of parents in CT that just lost kids that are about 4 or 5 years old. Grow the f*ck up and have some damn morales for a change.

Yet another senseless shooting, when is America going to address this with some intelligence?

Now, before I start in, I am a multi-gun owner but this stuff sickens me. I'm not a NRA member as I have violent disagreement with too much of their philosophy; some of the things they say make sense, but one place I part ways with them is their insistance on 'rights' and particularly their efforts to portray guns as 'commonplace' and a part of everyday life. Yes, they insist that education should be done but then turn around and again insist that this should be 'voluntary' as people need to take 'personal responsibility'. A nice ringing 'all-american' slogan, but it's just not working out.

All gun owners should be licensed; we do this for plenty of other things and there's little or no objection to that. You need a license to operate a vehicle, practice medicine or dentistry, perform electrical or plumbing work (in most states), even hairdressers need licenses most places. All these things are regulated to protect public safety and prevent unqualified persons from harming others. I fail to see the difference with guns; this should be a no-brainer.

Right here is where the hard-core gun nuts and the NRA start squealing that this will 'infringe' on their rights. But following their logic, this doesn't allow for any regulation on guns (as the NRA has demonstrated many times by their opposition to nearly every gun law) so guns should be available to anyone with the money to purchase one; children, convicted felons, certified crazies, anyone. If that's what they're really advocating (and many of the more extreme gun nuts do), then expect more incidents like this one or the mall shooting in Oregon, Columbine, Martin/Zimmerman, etc. You won't be safe anywhere, armed or not. And before someone brings up some antedotal story about how somebody defended themselves because they were armed, how many are dead from their own weapons? I personally know of at least two that were killed with their own guns and their attackers were unarmed.

One thing seldom mentioned is that this is the only place in the constitution where the founders attempted to regulate a technology. This is a 18th century document, and I doubt they forsaw the coming of weapons that could fire shots at the rate of one per second with large-capacity magazines. A random shooter can't get off too many shots if using a muzzle-load flintlock before being overpowered by survivors.

Are there other factors at work? Of course; violence in the media doesn't help, but realistically that only affects a small percentage of people who would likely find another weapon if not a gun. Watching video games won't turn you into a killer unless you run that way to start with.

This shooting is at an elementary school, so the shooter can't be older than 12; where did he get the gun? You can almost bet that it belongs to his parent or a friends parent. Maybe the answer is trying the owner as accessory to murder; if some of these owners get long prison terms, that may help keep this out of our public schools. And I don't want to hear any bleeding-heart nonsense about how they lost their child; other parents lost theirs but their kids weren't armed. As parents, you are legally responsible for your child's actions.

OK, edit. The update says this was an adult, but all the reasons stay the same. Either some sanitity needs to prevail, or our country is going to become an armed camp.

anti - It is the left that is do the dividing .

They are the ones that want different rules for every little group. They are the ones telling us there is a war on women, there is a war on immigrants, that people are racist, that the rich are the problem, that men that like other men need to have different rights, and on and on and on.

Condolences to the family and friends of those lost in this horrible tragedy. Senseless acts like this will never be explained.

Our thoughts and prayers are with you all.

Gee, yet another one-man well-regulated militia ensuring the security of a free state...

"Please, can someone name any other inanimate object that we would take pictures with and mail in Christmas cards???"

Uhhh - my ex-wife?

ME,

People have a right to make fun of spirituality if they want. That has nothing to do with this. Show me some empirical evidence that the decline of religion/spirituality even exists and that it is linked (I'm talking causality) to an increase in mass shootings.

Sally,

Just pointing out Eva's hypocrisy. But do you want to know what taxes and the government DO have to do with this topic...

They PAID for the "intrusive state actors" (i.e. the police) who risked their lives by running into that building today.

For everyone else,

I keep hearing gun control is a band-aid. Well, when the paramedics come, to they leave your wounds gaping open and bloody until they can get you to the hospital and fix the "long term" problem? Or do they bandage you up, first???

Military guns are designed to kill people, yes.

Most civilian guns are either for self defense, sport shooting and/or competition. Regardless, they are still only tools that can be abused.

Anything can be abused/misused.

Not having weapons if we ever need them for whatever reason is too late to get them.

Why do lefties hate Americans exercising their constitutional rights?

Tom - Plymouth-3672298

No it is not the left, it is both sides turned against themselves, we are one nation of many people with many different views, I voted for Obama, I am not a member of the NRA and know many members who I consider to be nuts, yet I have multiple handguns and rifles, including what would be considered an assault weapon, but in reality is just a semiautomatic rifle. We are dividing and conquering ourselves, I believe in the second amendment but there are people who should just not have guns, case and point today. In my opinion the right is more divisive, but you know what they say about opinions, both yours and mine

Sarah -

"People have a right to make fun of spirituality if they want."

Do people have the same right to make fun of ones sexuality? Race? Body size?

Or is this just another one of lefts hypercritical stances?

"What is with all these posts being collapsed, this censorship by NBC/Newsvine needs to stop, people have a right to post and have their posts read, we also should not have to uncollapse these posts in order to read them."

It's not Newsvine per se, but when a comment gets reported a certain number of times, it's automatically collapsed. Sometimes a moderator will come through and restore it, but the original collapsing was by the readers themselves.

I just got back from downtown and I'm sure not plowing through 185 posts to catch up so I'm done with this thread.

General statement: People should reel it back and consider this isn't a great time for pushing our personal agendas.

If you read into this, and you take it in, you'll realize that this is the time to think about the people who have been hurt and affected. That isn't preaching, okay? That's just an idea based on knowing there will be plenty of time to bicker later.

Sam-1938777

i don't believe having a gun is necessary but i know how to shoot and made sure my son knew how to handle a gun.

its like the president said during the campaign,

guns are not the problem its keeping then out of the hands of sick people.

the goof in Portland this week the only killed 3 people because his gun jammed.

guns are not the problem its keeping them out of the wrong hands.

Do people have the same right to make fun of ones sexuality? Race? Body size?

Yup, they sure do.

guns are not the problem its keeping them out of the wrong hands.

Exactly. And how do we go about doing that, if not through gun control? Yes, we have a right to bear arms and own guns, if we want to keep that right we need to make sure gun control is in place and effective.

Gun enthusiasts should be the first in line advocating for better gun policies. After all, if all you want is to legally own your gun, for WHATEVER reason, gun control DOESN'T stop THAT.

well i am totally at a lost for words...sadden by this act of terror...our country has become too much about a dollar...and not enough bout family and true goodness...to many acts of violence...for any morally responsible nation ...this goes beyond gun control ideas...let greed and headlines control your every move...oh great politicians of our time...now if that there ain't deep...i bet the shooter was deranged or disgruntled...they're seldom ranged and gruntled...what's up with that....

Too bad the state laws prevented school officials from having concealed weapons on school property. That alone could have caused the shooter to think twice and none of this would have happened in the first place.

What do you want to bet this guy stayed in his room all day playing violent video games on his spare time for several years?

Sarah -

"Yup, they sure do". Notice you did not expand on that, just a short answer. Hmm...

Anyway, I believe in the concept of personal responsibility. Now, unless a gun is an animate object with a mind and will of it's own...

Dave,

That's exactly what we need, citizens in a shoot out, inside an elementary school. Because handling a situation like this is THAT easy. There's no tunnel vision, indecision, panic, stress, confusion, piss poor aim...

It doesn't take extensive training, or anything, to be able to neutralize such a situation, any body can do it!

I've got news for you, if someone is crazy enough to shoot up an elementary school, they're too crazy to care if you're packing heat. They already realize their life is as good as over when they start.

At the time I'm replying to this post, there are approximately 200 comments in the thread. I've read or perused all of them. I think that I counted 7 that spoke directly of the tragedy those children, teachers and parents are now dealing with. Of those 7, perhaps 4 actually expressed condolences in some form. The rest were political and religious bickering; often not-so-nicely-stated expressions of why one or the other side could only be idiotic for believing as they do. The answer to 'what is wrong with us these days' can be found no further than the mirror. For proof one need look no further than Any comment section dealing with Any news story about how humans have demonstrated that their interest in the well-being of others is far into the (-)minus range. The proof found here, in this one page, is in how many of the comments have been collapsed. We are unable to even Talk to one another, leave alone the idea of Listening to one another, because no one is interested in anything except being 'Right', and anyone who does not agree with our version of 'right' is automatically an idiot, traitor, non-patriot, usurper, or a direct insult to our sensibilities. It's not videos. Its not firearms(per se), its not television or movies or immigrants or god or the devil. It. Is. Us.

The animal rights advocates want those who harm animals by any means strung up and acid thrown on them. The anti-abortionists want to slice open and gut those who are pro-choice. Those who appear in the news for having been charged (not convicted) of committing certain crimes have wishes for the most heinous and painful inflictions of torture heaped upon them before the entire story is even known. And I won't even start on the politics and those who choose one side of the coin over the other. Even the children are not immune from those who desire to have them beaten and beheaded in the town square when they commit crimes of any level. Anyone who has any kind of differing opinion, to judge by some of the comments on the Vine and other news sources, takes their very life in their hands by expressing it. And I am unable to believe that such 'comments' are restricted to a web-page...and not expressed at the television during the news-cast, or at the neighbor committing some perceived offense outside the window at home.

Do you Seriously believe that Your Children do not Hear how You talk?

These families will never be the same again, and whatever mad motive this young man had for committing this atrocity will never truly be known. Let's be respectful and at least considerate of one other as we send our condolences and hopes for a rapid return of peace of mind for those affected.

sahra's cool...ever now and then she's...even right...lol...

For some reason we can't seem to have an adult discussion about guns in America without people screaming about their rights.....I'm not for taking away the right to bear arms, I know no one who is....people are always saying "Freedom isn't free" and proudly point at the military and bravo for their sacrifices but freedom also comes with other costs, like the ability to sit down and determine what can be done to protect those most at risk in out society, our young people, the poor and the elderly.....if something can be done to stop or at least decrease these horrible events then we owe it to our children to do so.

AZ,

How many home runs would Babe Ruth have hit without the bat? Of course they're are underlying issues that need to promptly be addressed, but they're societal and systemic, those issues will never be fully solved. They're will always be crazy, sick @!$%#s, who slip through the system. So, if we want to maintain our 2nd Amendment rights, we need to understand that.

Yes, let's look at why we're such a violent culture, and why we have mental illness, and how to treat said illness, but let's also understand there will always BE mental illness, and the only responsible thing to do, is make sure our 2nd Amendment rights, not only protect the right of responsible people to own guns, but allow for us to KEEP that right, by cracking down on loop holes and unnecessary arms, ammo, and the like.

Gun control, does NOT equal gun banning. Anyone who wants to own one legally, and SHOULD be able to, will not be effected, they will STILL be able to.

Plain,

What can I say??? Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then.

benotdeceived -

Welcome to (by your own words)..."takes their very life in their hands by expressing it."

My thoughts and prayers go out to the families of those killed, first of all.

I don't remember now who it was that mentioned Timothy McVeigh and his bomb laden truck, it is for that specific reason if someone wants to purchase an out of ordinary amount of fertilizer, or fuel like he and Nichols used to manufacture their bomb that those attempted sales are reported to law enforcement. As for the man in China that stabbed those kids, for all we know Chinese authitories have already executed him. Yes, there are other countries that execute their convicts and also they're not being allowed to file one appeal after another like our criminal defense lawyers in this country do. Unless the 2d person perhaps involved in the latest shooting is adequately questioned and found to be part of plan, we'll never know the young man's motive just like the Ore. mall shooter that took his own life rather than be taken alive. I've received multiple invitations from NRA to join, and each time shredded that invitation because I don't agree with their lenient idea of gun ownership. I was in Air Force Air Police tech school at Lackland AFB, TX when the AR-15 was in development. The main/only purpose it was stated was for killing your enemy, not wild game hunting or target practice (except by military marksmen/women) but for some odd reason the NRA had come up with idea that every tom, dick and harry should be allowed to possess one of them. I don't own any firearms but am considering purchasing either a 9 mm or 40 cal and would have no problem at all with registering it. It was stated the gunman in Ore. stole the AR-15 he used, people secure your guns so that that can't happen, and this applies to gun stores as well. One last thing, I can remember as about a 10-yr-old my bro and I had a bb gun until he shot me in the hip. That bb gun was HISTORY, we never saw it again.

Oneslackr,

If you're going to use statistics, please learn to use statistics. The # of gun murders has been dropping, but the ONLY reason is because all murders have been dropping. Divide your figures to discover the truth: 67% of murders are carried out by a gun owner and this is constant throughout your data.

first comment jwill - says it all - jesus protect these children - what !!!!! - a little late there genius - and show me a jesus freak evangelical and i will show you a card carrying member of the NRA - ignorant and hypocritical - that covers it -

I have posted here many times in complete defense to own a firearm, as I do. No matter discussion, I have never insulted anyone, called names, blamed anyone; except those who are solely responsible. I actually detest anyone who spews their hate towards others that use this forum for conversation, gain some knowledge, and opening their eyes from another point of view, intelligently. But NO!!!!! You sit there, arguing about cars vs. gun vs. knives vs. bats vs. hands vs. whatever you feel appropriate to make your point. I get it. I really do. The only thing to BLAME here is the 20 year old guy who opened fire killing 18 children, seven adults, along with this psycho's parent. Not the guns, not the NRA, not Obama (now I am even more pissed because I am coming to Obama's defense).

So, here I go with my first official insult and spewing my hate towards YOU. GROW THE FU** UP, you heartless, soulless, excuse of a human. 18 CHILDREN ARE DEAD. Do you understand that? I am so FU**ING angry and my heart physically hurts about this entire situation and you sit here and argue over stupid sh**, that is not going to change.

This is NOT A TIME to defend your constitutional right. This is NOT A TIME to call right-wings or left-wings a gun nut. This is NOT A TIME to talk about Bush (WTF does this have to do with this tragedy?). This is NOT A TIME to point out your stance on guns (pro or anti). I know what it is. I have read it many times. I DO NOT GIVE A SH**. This IS THE TIME to have compassion for the parents, teachers, the detectives, THAT COMMUNITY who are right NOW looking at their dead child, parent, mom, dad. Never seeing their child grow up, get married, becoming a grandparent. A child NEVER seeing their mom or dad AGAIN.Their lives will NEVER be the same. But go ahead and argue and fight if that makes you feel better. I support ALL of you and what you believe is right for YOU. But EVERYONE here should be ashamed for being such jacka$$es arguing about guns.

Tell ya what, I am going to close in prayer, because THIS makes me feel better. This will help me understand. This will allow me to move on with my day, while my heart breaks and my tears continue to fall and I cannot stop. And I really do not want to hear about "where was God" because guess what? The thief (satan) does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. John 10:10.

I pray for God's hands on the hearts of everyone who is grieving and angry. My deepest heartfelt sympathy goes to the families.

God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in times of trouble. Psalm 46:1

.

I am a gun owner, and hate to hear talk of messing with the rights of law biding gun owners. I would lay down all the guns I own, and would insist others to the same, if it would stop the violence that occurs daily. The sad truth, is that it would not stop any of the people who would do evil in this world, as they are hell bent to hurt and kill. It starts with the irresponsible culture that has permeated from Hollywood, through the music industry, and the way events like this get washed all over every form of media. Not that we shouldn't inform people, but with every outlet there is these day, it is a 24/7 barrage of people doing bad things to each other.

Truly, guns didn't do this. It was a product of his surroundings.

I don't know how such a tragedy became a debate between pro gun ownership and against gun ownership. But since you are at it, the whole purpose of guns is to kill. Either humans, animals, self defense, protection. It all has the purpose of being prepared to kill. There's no other use for it.

And maybe our Leaders should revise that 2nd. Ammendment?

Sarah -

Fair enough. What are some of the loopholes, etc., that you are referring to? I know of a few. Especially when it deals with gun shows as compared to gun shops, etc. When you talk about "unnecessary arms, ammo, and the like", I am presuming you are referring to semi-automatic assault rifles, hollow point rounds, etc. To be honest with you, and this is coming from someone who not only served our country in the military but now works law enforcement, I agree with you to a certain extent. Now, I just ask you to convince me, or at least to give me some thought-provoking arguments to mull over and consider. Also, I am being completely honest in my request of you. I am not trying to antagonize or start a war of words. Let's just say I am on the fence, and a lot of people I have talked to about this subject just repeats what they have heard from someone else, and haven't really given me an original, researched perspective. You seem like a person who genuinely knows what they are talking about, and speaks from rational thought, not just on emotions.

Total Murders by year;

2006-15,087

2007-14,916

2008-14,224

2009-13,752

2010-12,996

2011-12,664

Total Murders by firearms

2006-10,225

2007-10,129

2008-9,528

2009-9,199

2010-8,775

2011-8,583

Number of NICS checks per year

2006-10,000,000

2007-11,000,000

2008-12,000,000

2009-14,000,000

2010-14,560,000

2011-15,142,400 TAKEN FROM 1.26 ABOVE

You know what this tells me, along with what I was originally gonna say, notice the numbers of background checks with murders, how many of those where first time background checks along with first time murders??? My guess would be a lot. Background checks are in place to make sure ppl who haven't previously committed acts of violence cannot get their hands on guns LEGALLY.

I do think mental evals should be required, just like they should be for our president, CEO's, any politician. They do it for cops and psychologists. How many guns do you think per capita where around in the early 1900's, I wish we had the numbers, the death rates back then wheren't the same, not because of the guns, but because of the MIND SET of the people. Throwing more money at the mental health won't help either, because those problems are coming from failed parenting and the decline of the family unit and discipline, morals (not religious crap either) there are basics to morality that aren't religion based to me like do not kill or steal @!$%# that isn't yours. Until the mindset of america and it's lazy parenting ways, undisciplined kids who can't take care of themselves, whiney little @!$%#s who think they rule the world, this stuff is gonna happen more and more, notice how fast these are coming now, buckle up america here it comes, reap what ya sow.

Banning guns and throwing more money at mental health will not change any of this stuff

What's worse, discussing and debating possible solutions in a rational manner, or it taking something like this to instigate that conversation?

It isn't callous to take this opportunity to discuss how and why @!$%# like this happens, or how and why we could/should fix it. It doesn't mean that we don't care. If we DON'T discuss it, we're doing a disservice. Obviously, OBVIOUSLY, something is broken here. We can continue to let it be broken, or we can start a conversation in order to fix it. That includes discussing both the rights issues, the cultural issues, and everything else involved.

If you want to go pray instead, or grieve instead, that's fine. That's your choice.

But, if I ever have children, I'd like to know we're better equipped as a society, than to allow this @!$%# to happen on a regular basis.

Sarah,

Anyone who's truly, only considering gun ownership as a rational self defense mechanism, they will have NO problem, instituting better control over gun sales.

I'm with you kid!! I have guns. I do not have any assault type weapons. I would have no problem being checked further and sales taking longer. However, I just do not believe it will stop anyone willing to die to do harm to others. It is my understanding that you can look up how to make a bomb on the internet and that it takes some very basic items such as fertilizer and gasoline.

May the Lord comfort the family of each and everyone involve in this tragedy. May the wings of the almighty God cover the soul of those little innocent children.

The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.

² He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

³ He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

⁴ Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

⁵ Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

⁶ Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever. These children have met the Lord and they are in the house of the Lord for ever.

GOD BLESS THEIR SOUL.

THE SCHOOL should reserve a permanent monument on its property.

Just a thought here but when the wackos of this world see this kind of reporting on the internet, reaching thousands of people. Who is to say they might react like this, WOW I can do better then that, Watch this.In their minds it is glorifying some weird ideology, or just a screwed up . What do you suppose would happen if this in a warped since of thinking was not glorified like it is???

AZ,

Thank you. I'd start with yearly registration of all personally owned guns. We have to register our vehicles each year, right? The government has a vested interest in keeping tabs on where those guns go, it would be minimally intrusive, and could stop a lot of thefts and illegal sales.

I don't agree with hiking the price of bullets, but limiting those available, as you said, hollow points, kevlar piercing, extended clips, are all unnecessary for hunting, target shooting or self defense.

Before purchasing a gun, you need to take a class, both on use and technical issues, but in basic criminology, self defense law and psychology. As I said, way more issues go into using a weapon, even justifiably, against another human, than mere "self defense". A couple Saturdays a month isn't too much to ask, to have a more educated population. If we're going to allow arms, education that accompanies those arms, makes sense to me.

Like you said, gun shows are out of hand. It should not be easier to obtain a deadly weapon, than it is to obtain an original copy of your birth certificate.

some thing else to think about

for those who think semi auto should be banned

read the whole description and see how much the crime rate is. and the number of gun related deaths. and then tell me we have a problem

I've been in that town, Newtown. It is an all american, sleepy, invisible town where nothing ever happens. Maybe that's why this guy was able to get into the school and get to the classrooms. Most of the schools have an unbreakable glass door with a buzzer and intercome. You buzz, and someone at the office answers, and you have to say the name of the child and the purpose of your visit. Someone comes to the door and you have to show an ID before they open the door. Then they escort you to the office, when your business is done, they escort you back to the door. If someone has a gun they have to shoot through the unbreakable glass door.

I don't know if this school had this kind of security system, or maybe the criminal got in while the doors were still open to the students. And this guy was 20 years old, I would say that if there was someone watching the doors while the students were getting in, they would have noticed, since this was an elementary school.

I can only imagine the terror these kids lived while this sick was shooting everyone, they probably saw their teacher being killed first. And I can only imagine what a tragedy for the parents of those kids, two weeks before Christmas, probably with their presents already bought. May these kids and all the victims rest in peace.

I don't know how some people in here can take this forum to argue about 2nd ammendments and their right to have guns. If you feel so strongly about it, collect signatures, make a forum and take it to your congressman and the White House. Just saying, I just had to take it out of my system. I am sad as hell today.

This has very little to do with guns: look at the attack in China using knives. I'm all in favor of stricter laws regarding guns - every attempt should be made to keep them out of the wrong hands, but not all hands. I for one feel safer knowing there is one in my home, especially during the weeks when the incidence of break-ins in the neighborhood (and I live in a good neighborhood!) rises, with family members tied up and the women raped. I do not want to kill, I shudder to think what taking a life would do to me mentally, but if it comes down to my innocent family or some rapist or murderer, I'm going to do my best to make sure it's him.

We need to look past the issue of gun misuse, the symptom, and look for the cause. What is causing so many people to snap, to not only take their own lives but the lives of innocents? Why do people not value life anymore, and think they have the right to take another's? Until that it addressed, these things will keep happening, whether you ban guns or not. Those who have no regard for human life will certainly have no regard for a law banning guns, and will find guns anyway. Or use another weapon, such as knives.

The second amendment gives us the right to bear arms, yes, but not to kill. Those who wish to kill will do so regardless of whatever the second amendment says.

Screminmimi (1.37) - Though I agree with you about the shows/movies that were on the screen when we were younger (I am a little younger than you, but grew up with Adam-12, Starsky and Hutch, and reruns of the cowboy shows, not to mention Star Wars) not being as violent, I have to disagree with you on the video game part.

I have played video games since the early 80's, when the Atari was out. Since then, I have owned and played almost every system, and quite a few of those games are what some would classify as "violent". However, I have never, nor will I ever, entertained thoughts of doing anything like what is done in the video games. Despite playing Grand Theft Auto, I do not go around running over pedestrians, or shooting innocent people. I don't even own a weapon of any sort in real life.

The problem is not with the perceived notion that video games influence young minds, but instead that the parents do not teach their children morals. Video games are a momentary escape from reality; not a replacement. And it is up to the parents to make sure that the children know that.

This is a reply to Sarah...

Your premise that handguns were solely created to kill people is the fatal flaw in your argument. As a shooting sports person, neither myself nor anyone I know buys a gun "to kill people". That you think that guns were designed or invented solely for "killing" only demonstrates your ignorance of actually gun owners. You are making an academic argument...nothing more. Sure, ORIGINALLY guns were crafted to kill either persons or game...but those days are long bygone days. People like myself enjoy shooting. I shoot guns, bows, crossbows, etc of all sorts...because I like shooting.

As you don't shoot, I don't imagine you understand this or even want to...it's simpler for you to make blanket statements about "what guns are for". The premise of your argument is flawed so then is your argument.

I don't think you want to acknowledge the truth that shooting sports of all kinds are recreational activities that people of all walks of life love to do and it has nothing to do with "killing people". I have noticed that you are a very "liberal" minded person...and that reality conflicts with your ideology is something I don't think you have it in you to deal with. You see only what you want to see and pretend the rest of reality doesn't exist. I own guns, bows and crossbows...none of which were even bought with the idea of "self defense" in mind. You just don't understand how wrong you are.

This young man was a very angry young man.

You have to start from point A, which is the home of this young man.

A guest on CNN said that we don't need metal detectors, we need mental detectors.

He's so correct.

Another guest said that our culture is going down the drain. He is also correct.

Things that were not acceptable years ago are now being accepted. Look at the stupid reality shows.

Young kids are committing crimes and using foul language. A teenage kid asked a woman for a cigarette. He killed her just because she told him to get a job. Really???? Young kids are attending church in lower numbers. We are losing our moral values.

This country is slowly going down the drain.

I don't think it's about the guns - this sort of violence is merely symptomatic of a continued breakdown of our society. We do everything we can in our culture to separate our children from the Human Experience.. We work very hard to make them 'part of the machine' - show no emotion when you make a touchdown, don't make eye contact, carry this card with you to school which will track every move.. Humans were just not meant to live like that - and consequently they lose touch with reality and their own souls...

Teachers can no longer hug a child who is crying and say "It's all going to be ok" (they are considered perverts now) We do anything and everything we can to stifle human interaction ... texts, instant messages, tweets, e-mail...

And now it's coming home to roost. Welcome to the society we have built for our future generations!

(It Would be interesting to know however, just how many people were on site who were able to shoot back.. a qualified marksman would have been able to put this turd out of his misery in a very short period of time. And for those who want to wail about creating the "Wild West", it's too late - we're already there.)

Wow - it's exhausting reading through all these posts. I just wanted to express my sympathy to all of the parents of children who attend this school that was attacked this morning. We have a neighborhood elementary school that is about 1/2 a mile away from our home. My youngest still attends this school. As soon as I heard about the attack my mind went right to where their minds would have gone - where is my child at this very moment? The not knowing, the fear, the apprehension - my heart goes out to all of them.

As far as the other rhetoric going on here on Newsvine - surely it could be saved for another day. There were babies killed today.

Sure, ORIGINALLY guns were crafted to kill either persons or game...but those days are long bygone days. People like myself enjoy shooting. I shoot guns, bows, crossbows, etc of all sorts...because I like shooting.

And that is why comparing them to cars is ridiculous. Especially when you think of the regulations we place on cars compared to guns.

As you don't shoot, I don't imagine you understand this or even want to...it's simpler for you to make blanket statements about "what guns are for". The premise of your argument is flawed so then is your argument.

I'm sorry, did I say somewhere that guns are ONLY used to kill people, or that people don't use them for hunting or shooting? The whole point of bringing up what guns were invented for, which you admit I was right about, was to debunk the car argument, not to make my own.

By the way, I've shot before, numerous times. A .44, a .9 and a .22. I'm by no means an expert or an enthusiast, but if I'm going to have an opinion on something I like to check it out first. I get why people enjoy it. I enjoyed it.

Please quote where I've said anything about curtailing sport shooting or promoted banning gun ownership??? If you're a legal, responsible sport shooter, you should have no problem with my stance on this issue.

Your personal dislike of me and/or assumptions aren't doing your argument any favor. Slow down on me and discuss the issue. Not that I'm not flattered by your focus, but really, this isn't about me.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Way to go United States! Let's keep arming the nuts all in the name of an antiquated and now deadly text.

Whats with twenty year old age group, Testosterone? Someone should do a study..It would be more productive than reading these garbage comments..

May God bless these sweethearts !!

I love how gun nuts say: "guns don't kill people, people do"

Yet these same people turn around and blame video games or movies. So guns don't kill people, a video game did? God damn you people are f***ing stupid.

Ad shut up with your stupid "god" sh**. Attending church, or believing in god, DOES NOT reduce this type of action. Countries with less religious influence are LESS violent than us. All religion, or "your god", does is give you justification for treating people like sh**.

This is what politicians who have no backbone and kow tow to NRA and Second Amendment wackos gets us. Anyone who supports gun rights, this tragedy is YOUR fault and is upon YOUR conscience. NO ONE EXCEPT POLICE AND MILITARY PERSONNEL SHOULD EVER OWN A FIREARM. Period. How many more children have to die before we decide to do what every other industrialized nation has done and severely restrict, if not all together ban, firearm ownership. There is absolutely no legitimate reason for a private citizen to own ANY type of firearm. You gun rights enthusiasts make me sick!

As a grandparent all I can say is God bless the children, parents and family members of all of the victims. Give your babies and family members an extra hug, no matter what your faith this is a tragedy. I do not pretend to understand this and am having trouble as I am sure many others are understanding the slaughter of innocent young children.

“We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.” ~Ronald Reagan

As simple as this is to understand, many diminish its accuracy.

This tragedy in Connecticut is not directly societies fault. As such it is not gun owners fault or the result of gun laws, or lack thereof.

This is a 24 year old monster of our society.

As much as we want to dismiss this notion, it is a fact. He murdered his own parents first and then went on a murderous rampage taking more than 2 dozen innocent children and school officials due to his distorted thinking. This was not the result of access to guns or current laws governing them. This, as is usually the case, is a result of our society’s structure.

We praise our diversity yet we dismiss the unintended consequences of it. We encourage tolerance but ignore its ability to create chaos. We demand political correctness but refuse to accept its abusive potential.

Most importantly we ignore the main cause of many of our societal ills, education. Our criminal public education system graduates illiterates that are never taught right or wrong because of the above issues in our culture. Families are fractured and result in dysfunctional ideologies. Our legal system has turned into a revolving door of repeat offenders who have more protections than the law abiding citizens. Criminals need to be punished, not pacified.

Our freedoms and liberties are built around laws, unfortunately no law, rule or regulation has ever been created that prevents crime. This is the reality of a free society. Our only solution to these incidents is to find out why a 24 year old man could commit this heinous crime and try to prevent it from happening again.

The immediate reaction is rage, anger, shock and then mourning. Hopefully we can learn from this incident.

Let’s all keep the families and friends of those lost and injured in our thoughts and prayers. If you have children hug them close, talk to them, reassure them and cherish them.

Children are the world's most valuable resource and its best hope for the future." ~JFK

Charlie-1915998 - Remember -- guns make us safe!!! No doubt in a few days the NRA will be out there telling us the solution is to make it even easier to get a gun and allow kindergarten kids to bring guns to school so they can defend themselves.

Typical:

Voters
Politicians manipulate voters every day with half-truths -- or outright lies -- about taxes, spending and many other issues that directly affect the nation's prosperity.

Too many voters embrace feel-good propaganda that they want to hear instead of learning the basic facts about issues they care about. They should do a better job of calling out dishonest politicians -- and shunning media outlets that stoke political food fights.

http://money.msn.com/investing/11-things-wrong-with-congress

The NRA also Teaches US Law Enforcement, Firearms Safety, Marksmanship, etc.. The NRA also turns over those deemed Psychologically disturbed into US Law Enforcement (those the NRA also trained).

KEEP RAISING YOUR CHILDREN USING MURDER SIMULATORS (AS MURDERING AS FUN AND ENTERTAINMENT FOR POINTS AND SCORES IN VIDEO GAMES) AS THE 24/7 BABY SITING DEVICE.

The Psychologists that demanded the ESRB Violence Ratings on Video Games told you what the RESULTS would be.

Reinstate the Selective Service and or Mandatory Compulsory US Military Service (Ground Combat Forces) for everyone starting at Age 18 like most European Nations that do NOT have this Problem, then they will know from Firsthand Experience just how f**ked up and horrible killing human beings really is. Statistics of Murders after: WWI, WWII, Korean War, Vietnam War, etc. when the majority of US Citizens Served in the US Military instead of the current 1% of US Citizens Serving in the US Military.

Ed Orr - I was in Air Force Air Police tech school at Lackland AFB, TX when the AR-15 was in development. The main/only purpose it was stated was for killing your enemy, not wild game hunting or target practice (except by military marksmen/women)

Wrong. The USAF Project Manager decided on the AR-15 (aka M-16, CAR-15) and the .223 caliber (5.56mm) because of ease of use (less time to train marksmanship), NOT Lethality; as previously the M-14 with the more Lethal 7.62 mm (.308 caliber) was used at the beginning of Vietnam. The .223 caliber (5.56mm) was originally developed as a varmint (small animals) round fired from bolt action rifles (as to one of many reasons why the original (and even current) M-16s jammed). An unstated (illegal per Civilian Conventions of the 1908 Hague Convention and 1949 Geneva Convention) reason is using less than lethal calibers (like the Japanese Snipers of WWII) wounding one enemy combatant would take at least two other enemy combatants off the Battlefield to evacuate the one wounded enemy combatant, the same with the less than lethal German 9mm of WWII versus the very lethal US .45 caliber.

Note: Do not even say that the weapon (AR-15, M-16, M-4, CAR-15, etc.) causes the bullet to become lethal by "tumbling" or I will know that you know NOTHING.

Ed Orr - I don't own any firearms but am considering purchasing either a 9 mm or 40 cal and would have no problem at all with registering it.

Do not buy a Firearm. If you are stopped for any reason by US Law Enforcement and your License Plate is run on their computer, it will state that you are armed and the US Law Enforcement will treat you as armed even if you are not. example: If the US Law Enforcement stops you, the first thing they must do is run your license plates, second if they tell you to place both hands on the steering wheel thru the loud speaker and you come out of your vehicle instead, they have every right to shoot you since you would be out of range of non lethal projectile type tasers.

As far as Gun Control, did not work at the Murder Capitol of the World aka Washington D.C., nor Chicago, Great Britain, etc.. Just a Fact, most Firearms are NOT manufactured at the US. example: To arm the Mexican Military, the Mexican Government has Manufacturing Licenses to manufacturer Military (Selective Fire including Full Automatic) M-16s, M-4s, M-9 (pistols), etc.. The Illegal Aliens used as Mules are not just smuggling in Drugs to pay the Coyotes for smuggling them into the US, these weapons are also given to the Illegal Alien Gangs as the Drug Distributors for the Drug Cartels and as Enforcers. Also at South and Central Americas, the more reliable and lethal weapons preferred by the Drug Cartels as the Russian Firearms are being brought by the container load into South America (Hamas Foreign Fighters, Hezbollah), smuggled into Guatemala (Organized MS-13 and MS-14, etc.), then to Mexico (Drug Cartels) and eventually the US (Illegal Alien Gangs and Drug Cartels like La Familia of the Northeast US).

mguy-478,

Surely you are aware of the suicide bombers that do this regularly in those other COUNTRIES you are speaking of, right? You know, those countries with very strong, religious influences. This guy was mentally ill.

Just another 26 poor innocent souls sacrificed on the Alter of the Second Amendment, not to mention the wounded and the collateral damage in the families and the community....Hope all you Gotta Have My Semi-Auto Cowboys are proud of yourselves!

My heart bleeds for the families!

Nearly all of these shooters whether its Columbine, Aurora, are ALL LIBERALS!!!!!!!

I do not know that this can be substantiated in any meaningful way, especially with mysterious perpetrators who are quite young and probably too young to have taken any interest in or solid position on politics of any type. But, depending on how one would choose to define liberalism, I can see a thing or two about this that could warrant some merit.

A lot of these young mass killers probably had quite the sense of entitlement, that the world owed them something, or even a lot, through the couple of decades they'd been alive, and whatever it was had not been forthcoming. I'm not sure just what 'it' would be; probably different in individual case. I'd imagine that we'd be talking the 'ingredients' of what one would say was a 'good life' that the killer felt were missing in his. Friends, popularity, a desirable reputation, relationships, success. I'm almost thinking that material possessions are down the list quite a way. The truly frustrated man feels that he has missed out on all of the intangible good things in life that, from his perspective, just seem to naturally come to everyone else.

It's hardly a stretch to envision where a young male adult, convinced that the world and society has made a hobby of dumping on him with no plans to quit anytime soon unless he acts to stop it, would lash back as violently as possible, striking at the things he feels are responsible for all of his problems in life.

I have no idea how we can effectively stop this, either. After the unthinkable has been done, it is no longer unthinkable.

Surely you are aware of the suicide bombers that do this regularly in those other COUNTRIES you are speaking of, right? You know, those countries with very strong, religious influences.

Yes... because overly religious countries are ALWAYS more violent. That was my whole point.

But we have people here screaming for more god and more religion. Ya, great... let's make things even worse.

I can tell you why this happens. 20 little innocent lives were lost today in a violent crime. Mommies and Daddies are in so much pain right now they can't breath. Brothers and sisters have had the magic of the season ripped out of their hearts. 20 little children, excited and anticipating a visit from Santa left for school this morning with their little back packs filled with books and won't be coming home. Now. look at this message board. Very few of you are even acknowledging the personal heartbreak that each of us should be feeling. Most of you are using it to vent your political feelings. We have become desensitized to violence to the point that we can't even express sympathy to these families, instead we sit on message boards being mean and angry with each other. I weep for these children and their families and their community. And I weep for our country, populated by the likes of people on these message boards. Shame Shame Shame

Stop the vitirol. Hug your children. Tell you partners you love and care for them. In the name of these babies, go to your favorite charity and donate your time, goods and money. Learn empathy from this.

Sarah

All mine are registered, I would not buy or sell one without changing registration, mandatory registration would eliminate the "gun show loophole" which really only applies to private sales. As far as kevlar piercing, the only handgun round that would was a certain round for the FN5.7 which has been banned. Hollow points serve a purpose, by opening and expanding it slows the bullet faster to prevent over-penetration and the bullet passing through the subject and possibly wounding or killing an unintended target, yes is also causes more damage to the primary target. As far as classes I could teach them but that is not my calling, and I have seen video of many police involved shootings where the police break many safety rules, and most of them don't practice sufficiently. I have seen them at the range and quite frankly some of them are scary. Responsible owners practice more than the police because we are held to a higher standard. Most people do not have extended mags, the factory mags of most modern guns hold 13-19 depending on model and caliber. My primary only holds 8 plus 1 and that is more than sufficient, I do have 1 extended mag for it that holds 10, but that is more because I don't enjoy refilling the mags at the range, and anyone that practices can change mags in under a second so that is not really an issue. Mental stability really is more the issue, and as far as background checks and metal evaluation, and classes goes I am all for it. Annual registration would be just like for a vehicle, a revenue generator at best. All my friends that are gun owners abide by these rules or I would not go to the range with them, there are enough idiots there to worry about, I don't want to worry about the people I am with acting safely unless I am teaching them. Safety rules never have an exception, a gun is a mechanical device and like any mechanical device there can be failure, it has happened to me, but since I follow the rules religiously there was no harm, just 2 holes in the carpet and fragments everywhere, but no injuries.

For the record, I am NOT a member of the NRA. However, for someone to even implicate that they are responsible for actions like these flies completely in the face of logic. You may as well blame Budweiser for drunk driving accidents.

I can if they are standing on the street corner handing out beer and telling people the government is going to take away their beer is they don't watch it. (pst, the word is "imply" Implicate means you prove someone is involved in something)

The scariest thing about the comments here is the people supporting no gun control legislation are the most unhinged people I've ever heard. They are fanatic and off the wall about their "right to have a gun" which by the way IS NOT what the second amendment says but we won't go there right now.

Not that I think this applies to this situation, because I'm with the people who think this has something to do with desensitizing children to violence and by the way, but it's hard to kill something with your hands, face to face. That takes real cojones. Standing across the room and shooting is a cowards way to end a life. It's the way a person who is disconnected from the act does things.

All of you little people here screaming about your guns are frightened little rabbits. A gun makes you feel like a big person--like someone to be reckoned with and that should scare all of us in modern society. Because you will shoot. You will shoot first and worry about the consequences later because you're terrified all of the time or you wouldn't scream about your right to own a gun.

Gun control is not getting to the cause. Maximizing (school) security does not keep people from violent acts; banks have maximum security yet there are still bank robberies and not all are performed using guns and people are still killed or injured.

I think this story and any story of violence tells us that we should be nicer towards each other because over time any harassment, however harmless at the time, can set one off to do violent things. Like with domestic violence or road rage, it starts small then builds until we blow. We all have a levee and pushed too hard, it can break at any time. On the other end of the spectrum, some people are just born evil. But do try to be conciderate and compassionate of others and fewer acts of violence will occur.

wal-mart is trying to buy and save the "Twinkies."

Wow, 24 of the first 25 comments on this thread already "collapsed" (effectively silenced) by others who do not like what the author had to offer!

What a wonderful society we have built in which rather than considering what others have to say, and responding to those comments with our own alternative ideas and opinions, ...we instead resort to attempting to silence them.

Is this the American way, folks?

Is this your response to the First Amendment free speech rights of others; just silence (collapse) any comments of those with whom you disagree?

And what are we to make of the Second Amendment supporters here on this thread who are collapsing (silencing) the every comment which does not appear to be fully supportive of gun possession?

Is your protection of your own Second Amendment rights that much more important to you than our countries First amendment rights? Is that your point, here?

If so I have a question for you: How many children need to be murdered by guns, how many children need to die accidentally by guns, how many children need to be wounded and maimed by guns, how many children need to be traumatized for life by witnessing the aftermath of gun violence ... before you will be moved enough emotionally to even be willing to read, and listen, and consider opinions of others who wish to have a rational, open national conversation about gun ownership and gun possession which may differ from your own opinion?

St Miller said:

There is no good reason why anyone in this country should be allowed to own an assault rifle, a sniper rifle, kevlar piercing rounds, etc. Gun advocates need to be willing to make concessions as well. And don't even remotely suggest that the gun laws on the books are enough...they clearly aren't.

In my municipality, you're restricted to one firearm purchase a month, and you have to have a background check run through the state's criminal justice information system. You have to have a license and permit in order to buy a Class 3 Restricted Firearm.

Now, all of that being said..I'm a biometrics tech for a private company who provides fingerprint scanning services, and over the last three months we have had this one guy come in to be fingerprinted or a restricted firearm background check three times--one per month. he has also requested fingerprint cards that he could send to two neighboring sates for restricted firearms purchases there.

By my count, he's purchased five restricted firearms in the last three months, one per month from my state as is allowed and two from neighboring states. One wonders why he would need to purchase so many in this limited amount of time--his explanation to me was 'it's a hobby'.

I realize he's purchasing legally, but I still feel uneasy. Does anyone know if there is a reporting agency or something like that?

Amanda,

I realize he's purchasing legally, but I still feel uneasy. Does anyone know if there is a reporting agency or something like that?

Good point. There is no national database to track purchases such as this. If this guy is buying from numerous places, there's no way to know. I imagine he could be using more than one finger printing system, also.

Just one more way we could implement rational reform. In the meantime, I'd report it to your superior. Perhaps there's an internal system of dealing with this?

George Washington said:

"A free people ought not only be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from anyone who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.

Violence revs up mentally unstable persons. Obama went to Michigan and revved up the Union protestors. The union persons were extremely violent beating other persons tearing down a tent that had a leagal permit with women and people in wheelchairs inside putting their lives at risk. Several congressmen approved of this behavior along with the president. They shouted there will be blood shed and today there was. When country leaders approve of violence to get their way, right or wrong, mentally unstable people feel they have the green light to do their own violence.

@RonB from Pittsburgh

1. No new guns in this country for civilian use for a generation. You can buy and sell existing guns. Law-abiding gun owners will take care of theirs. Criminals will tend not to, and will tend to have theirs confiscated when they are arrested. At the end of a generation, very few criminals will have or be able to get guns.

2. To drive a car, you have to take a test. To buy a gun, you have to take two. One is psychological.

3. If your gun is stolen or lost, and you don't report it, and it ends up being used in a crime, you get the same sentence as the criminal.

Problem not solved, but significantly reduced.

#1: Yeah, great idea. It's not like you can't bring in guns from outside the country with our big, wonderful, open borders. No one ever smuggled booze in from Canada back in the day. No one brings drugs over the borders now, either.

So you would rather do nothing because perfection can't be achieved? Great plan.

No, my point is that we already have reasonable safeguards. This is NOT bleeding Kansas out there. But the answer is clearly not disarming law abiding people that work in the school. That's borne out in ever one of these horrible events.

#2: This already exists in Connecticut, New York, and lots of other states. You cannot get a gun legally w/o a license, and you cannot get a license with any record of mental illness.

...

#3: So this will extend to stolen cars too, right?

Oh, please, not with the car argument again. In addition to everyone else who has thoroughly debunked it already in this thread, let me add this: on a per-use basis, which is more effective at killing or maiming? And on a per-theft basis?

I have to agree with the commenter above who likened gun fetishes to addiction. The depth of denial is just jaw-dropping.

Hey, if you can name something else that a state issues a license for that we can use as another example, feel free to put it up. Debunked in your head, perhaps.
How do you want to quantify "per use"? Everytime someone turns the ignition? Every trip? Every car on the road? No matter how you slice it, cars kill more people than guns in the US every year. QED.
I don't think even the FBI has any idea about on a per-theft basis for either guns nor cars.

Yeah, it's kind of like the fetish other folks who think that taking away rights from law abiding citizens makes them somehow safer.

I'm with you, Sarah.

If I die from cancer, I do want people to use the occasion of my death to redouble their resolve to help find a cure. If I die in a plane crash, I do want the search for answers and prevention to begin right away.

The actual meat-life family and neighbors of the grieving families are the ones who will offer condolences and comfort.

Of one thing we can all be sure: the grieving families will never read anything we post here. Condolences and high-minded expressions of grief in the comments section of this article are wasted.

This is far and away the most senseless of these many senseless acts. The root cause is so much deeper than more "feel good" laws that do absolutely nothing to protect society and infringe on the rights of Americans. A greater % of households had guns 50 years ago than today, guns could be bought anytime without any background checks what-so-ever, yet mass shootings were unheard of back then. No laws will protect us from nuts. It is obvious that the phenomenon of the mass shooter is a result of our "modern society" we must go back and embrace the old cultural foundations that produced far fewer of them.

To everyone, please accept my deepest sympathies for your loss. Every person in this world lost today. Everyone is grieving because these little ones were powerless and innocent. As a retired hospice nurse, I am familiar with death and dying but this was a mindless assault on humanity.

My brother-in-law was down right insulting, when we discussed gun control before the Presidential election, this year. He said our should "demand" everyone carry a gun. It is our right. He gave me that too often excuse, guns don't lill people, people kill people. I told him, if that is the case, guns should not be sold or provided to people. He hasn't spoken to me since.

I believe the increase, in multiple shootings, like this is due to violence portrayed on TV and movies, reality shows, video games, paint ball and even water guns. People who participate in "pretend " gun fights, half no concept, of the carnage, a gun can cause.

I wish I could put my arms around each and everyone, of those who are suffering because, of the madness. Random shootings will continue until, stricter gun laws are in place. Automatic weapons are banned and education on violence is required. This should not be a glorified incident.

I worked in an operating room, earlier in my career, I have seen the trauma a gun can cause. I have helped save lives, of gun shoot victims. It is a gruesome experience. And when the patient is a child, it affects everyone, from the child's parents, family, loved ones, school mates and the people who provide the care. Then next, someone says, guns don't kill people, people kill people, I am going to respond with this. How many people do you think would be killed by gun fire, if there were no guns? Yes, I know about knives and other weapons, can be used to kill. But how many innocent children, do you believe, would have been killed today, if the guy would have used a knife? At least the children would have had, a better chance at survival. Again, I am so sorry for your loss. These incidents affect our entire world. Rest in peace, little ones. And for all of the children that survived, God be with you. I wish you well.

Amanda

Class 3 weapons at this rate, I would contact the FBI and BATF immediately, not that they could do anything if the purchases are legit, but they could let him know that he is on the radar an possibly thwart anything he is up to. But any purchase of class 3 HAS to go through the BATF and he has to pay a surcharge tax on each one. That said it may well just be a hobby.

To screminmimi at #1.37.

Thank you!! I, also, am in my late 60's. I grew up watching that terribly violent little cartoon character named "Mighty Mouse". My hero's were Gene Autry, Roy Rogers and all those other cowboy heroes that carried guns. The old 3 Stoogies slapstick comedies with all their violence were hilarious. My favorite movies were the old WW2 movies like "To Hell And Back" with Audie Murphy. It's strange that all these were chock full of killing, death and violence. It never crossed my mind to kill anyone. Later, after I grew up, the Army taught me how to kill while in the service in the mid '60s. I then spent 25 years as a law inforcement officer. We spent hours on the firing range learning how to be better shots with, first, revolvers and later with semi-automatic firearms like the Glock and Sig. I still never had the idea to go out and kill anyone. People, it is the CULTURE we now live in that is the problem. Teachers are no longer allowed to discipline the children in their classrooms because it may "hurt little Johnny's ego". Parents are now longer allowed to say "NO" to their child because the child can run to Family Services and accuse the parents of child abuse. This country has become a weak nation of "it's somebodies elses fault" crybabies. If I do something wrong, it is never my fault. Until we get back morals and a sense pf responsibiltiy guns are going to be the least of our problems. How many people, including children, were killed by Timothy McVeigh in Oklahoma City? He didn't use guns. Richard Speck didn't use guns. Ted Bundy didn't use guns. Very few of the serial killers this country has had ever used guns. It's not guns, it is our sick society.

I don't care how many statistics those of us love guns put into this comment section. No statistics can compare with 20 childred dying because some jerk took his issues that he had with his Mom out on these innocent children....with a gun. This isn't the time to be saying "guns don't kill, people kill". We are as aware of that fact as we are of the fact that 27 people went to a school today and are now dead!

Mark, you know what else kills people? Cancer. Plane crashes. Wild animals.

Here's a clue: we aren't talking about those today. Looking for rational approaches to curbing gun violence doesn't mean we can't also look for rational approaches to curing cancer, making planes safer, or managing wildlife.

Nor does the fact that those other killers are out there provide any logical reason whatsoever not to try to reduce gun violence.

Please.

Lusitania

Whats with twenty year old age group, Testosterone? Someone should do a study..It would be more productive than reading these garbage comments..

Medical fact, most psychotic breaks occur from the late teens to mid twenties, the studies have already been done.

Rontron Comment collapsed by the community

It is probably more about failed parenting. Failing to teach children how to deal with lifes ups and downs.

Disagreed. Probably, this shooting was due to a narcassitic nut, who had a good life, who had good future opportunities, but who still felt deprived in life. This abberant person felt that he was entitled to more money, control and recognition. This predator was angry. He allowed his anger to fester. He felt that he would release his anger and make a splash in the newspapers for himself, although after his mayham and no longer alive. Unfortunately, in these cases the motives and delusional concepts of these "self-annointed kings" are always the same.

Sarah,

Hi cutie;) You and some cohorts asked for some "laws" that the POTUS has signed regarding gun legislation, I know of none. Given this is accurate, are you then actually saying he's pro-gun? Lets be real here. He's a Democrat. He's possibly the most left leaning POTUS we've had. I'd be curious who disagrees with that...but it's moot and not intended as an insult. I care little for him as you may recall but this is the mantra of the left; pro-choice, anti-gun etc. We have our mantra also; pro-gun, pro-life. And no, I don't consider it an oxymoron. We have different perspectives. It's amazing what can get accomplished when people with different perspectives actually talk without the insults.

Benot...

Well stated.

(Little ones...I weep for you............)

Second time this week we have a shooter taking innocent lives. The republicans must be so proud of their nuts.

Hey Capt,

I'm fairly sure Obama's personal feelings about guns don't mean much. What matters are his executive actions and whether he's used his power as POTUS to implement those personal beliefs, as well as whether he can legally justify those implementations.

That, as you said, he has not done.

I'm a liberal. I'm not "anti-gun". I'm anti-gun nut illogical arguments. Big difference. I also don't consider pro-life/pro-gun a contradiction, as it is your choice to believe when humanity begins and I'm assuming you don't use guns to kill people. Just don't try to force your choice about humanity's beginning to be MY choice, and we'll get along just fine. ;)

So many love to quote the numbers from Australia but only use the first year. They tend to conveniently leave out the ten year stats after the laws were passed.

So what have the Australian laws actually done for homicide and suicide rates? Howard cites a study (pdf) by Andrew Leigh of Australian National University and Christine Neill of Wilfrid Laurier University finding that the firearm homicide rate fell by 59 percent, and the firearm suicide rate fell by 65 percent, in the decade after the law was introduced, without a parallel increase in non-firearm homicides and suicides. That provides strong circumstantial evidence for the law’s effectiveness.

Ask the parents of those dead children if guns are to blame, or if poor parenting is to blame, or if violent entertainment videos and games are to blame, or if a society of hate-filled anonymous posters is to blame.

I bet the answer would be all of the above combined.

Sarah 3043824,

I respect your opinions and pragmatic stances but you are a little naive to think that if the shooter believed there were armed people in the school that it would not have dissuaded him. When was the last time you heard of a maniac walking in and shooting up a police station? Soft targets are always preferabale to these maniacs.

The number of collapsed comments on here shows what an emotional issue this is, the massacre of a room full of kindergartners who had the unfortunate luck of having this mans mother as their teacherto be in the wrong place at the wrong time is gut wrenching. Sill, people, quit collapsing comments just because you disagree with the others point of view.

Ron,

Yet look at other mass shootings, NOT taking place in schools. With the gun laws we have in place, someone could feasibly have been carrying in Tuscon, Aurora, Clackamas... That possibility didn't seem to stop them any. Not to mention that mass shooters DO know going in that the police will respond, and that response will be shoot to kill.

The shooters are aware that the odds overwhelmingly support their dying in the commission of these crimes, yet they do them anyway, more often than not killing themselves at the end. That doesn't speak to their giving a @!$%# if you're carrying or not. That speaks to their being irrational, crazy and disrespectful of their own lives, as well as the lives of others.

3043284... sorry, transposed a couple of numbers

Why am I not surprised to see some people trying to make this political? I would have hoped that a situation like this would be handled differently. and thank you to those who didn't make it political.

Insanity has no ethnic, political or religious foundations. Insanity is insanity, period.

What we really need to examine is how we deal with people who show signs of insanity and ask how can we prevent a situation like this. In an extreme case here in new jersey some years back. A kid named Manzie killed an 11 year old boy in a middle class neighborhood. The mother had tried over and over to have her kid committed because he was insane. the courts don't listen to such complaints because it takes money to house the insane. And so judge after judge refused to commit Manzie. And so a young boy died.

The question in my mind is this. What is the system doing to identify people who may be mentally ill and determine if they pose a danger. I find it hard to believe that this shooter was just a normal kid and went crazy in a moment. Somebody had to know he was a danger, or at least suspected such. We cannot help the families that suffer from today's tragedy, but maybe we can avoid this in the future. We really need to have a civil discussion of this and the experts need to start the dialog.

I'm not saying we can eliminate all tragedy, but we really need to give it an honest try. I'm sure schools all over the country will be re-evaluating the basics of their security. Most people don't know that the secret service and FBI examines cases like this to better understand them. And I know it's no easy task. But we really need to put more resources into this. and for decency's sake, please leave all the left right stuff out.

This has been a banner year for gun enthusiasts across the country! The casualties are mounting among the innocents whose blood is being spilled in the name of the Second Amendment. They should be very proud.

Sarah,

But, the Aurora and Clackamas shootings took place in gun free zones. The shooters knew that it was illegal for people to be carrying weapons there. They knew that most people obey the law so they did not fear return fire.

All I have to say about all this is that we have become a really sick society. We have a lot to answer for!

Certainly gun control is debatable. Maybe a waiting period would have helped, maybe not.

I'd rather focus on loon control. We need to hold accountable those people who shelter unstable animals among us. The parents, other family, doctors, therapists, etc. surely knew he was not rational, and should have taken steps to make sure this monster could not endanger others.

These people are among us...withdrawn, depressed loners that snap. The people that know them aren't surprised they would do such things.

Ron,

You're looking at the issue with the assumption that all criminals and crimes are rational. That's why guns don't necessarily deter crime, because crime and criminals, by their very nature are irrational.

A rational person, yes, they would stop and consider that return fire may be a possibility, but a rational person wouldn't do this in the first place. And, as I said, the shooter still knows that return fire isn't just a possibility, it's a guarantee, regardless of whether or not it's a "gun free" zone. As soon as law enforcement gets there, the shows over. They also, tend to kill themselves, which points to their not really caring about return fire, too much.

If someone is crazy enough to shoot up an elementary school, do you really believe the tipping point between doing so, or not doing so, would be the possibility that someone may be carrying a gun?

This is just heartbreaking. At what point do we realize we have the responsibility to enact strict laws around gun control and to provide care for the mentally ill? May this horrendous incident be what we finally regard as the turning point in helping us become a loving and responsible nation. My heart is with the families who have lost their children, spouses, and parents.

Capt

the mantra of the left; pro-choice, anti-gun

It's amazing what can get accomplished when people with different perspectives actually talk without the insults.

You should practice what you preach... because if you have EVER talked to a single liberal in your entire life, you would know they are NOT anti-gun.

If you actually took 5 god damn minutes to talk to the political side you hate, you would learn that they DO NOT want to take your guns. They want more laws that make it difficult for a mentally unstable person to get a gun. I have not met one liberal, not a single damn one, that wants to take every gun away. The vast majority of the party just wants reasonable laws to keep guns out of the hands of felons and mentally unstable.

Now, will laws prevent every felon or mentally unstable person from getting a gun? No. But laws also don't stop people from getting drugs, yet YOU support those laws. So what do you have against laws that attempt to restrict a crazy person from getting a gun?

This has little or nothing to do with violent video games, TV shows, guns, or mental illness funding. It has a lot to do with this:

Obama said Friday's shooting, following the massacre at a movie theater in Aurora, Colo., and other murder sprees, showed the need for "meaningful action…regardless of the politics" to prevent more blood from being spilled.

Unfortunately he won't do what would prevent these shottings from happening more often, and simultaneously keep criminals from keeping guns and raising violent crime rates outside of gun crime, while still securing the individual, negative, right to own and carry fire arms.

The problem is that these nuts who do mass shotting almost always choose no-gun zones to attack, because it's not going to go over well at places where guns are allowed. How many mass shotings happen at gun ranges or police stations? It should be legal for teachers and janitors and such to carry firearms like anyone else everywhere else. We don't have an epidemic of teachers killing kids, or janitors for that matter. Create a game theory mathematical deterent by allowing them to carry...it's counter-intuitive but deductively logical. Even if they don't carry the shooters will pick softer targets....or think twice about going in these places to kill a bunch of people. This loon would have waited, perhaps, for his mother to come home to kill her instead of going where he expected to meet armed resistance.

And if guns, drugs, mental health problems, TV, music, and movies are to blame explain to me why MILLIONS of other people have those problems, or own those things, or watch those shows/movies, or listen to those songs but DON"T KILL ANYONE? Logic shows those things are not the problem, or it'd be a hugely pervasive problem.

200 million guns / 13,000 gun murders = 15,384.62 guns per murder (that's a lot of guns not killing people)

Percentage chance a gun in the USA will murder = .0065% (or 6.5 in every 1000 guns...that's 993.5 guns in every 1000 guns not murdering people)

50 million gun owners / 13,000 gun murders = 3,846.15 gun owners not murdering for every 1 gun murder (that's a lot of gun owners not murdering anyone)

Percentage chance a gun owner will murder with a gun = .026% (or 26 in every 1,000...that's 974 gun owners in every 1,000 not murdering anyone)

315,000,000 American people / 13,000 gun murders = 24,230.77 Americans per 1 gun murder victim

Math done by me via Bing search engine and the DOJ, CDC, and FBI stats. I'd also mention more lives are saved a year by guns than taken by guns:

The FBI says that 750,000 crimes are foiled per year by guns. If only 2% of those cases are cases where a single life is saved (or 1% of them saves on average 2 lives, alternatively, et cetera), then no less than 15,000 lives are SAVED by guns a year, and that is more than the 13,000 overestimate I gave for lives taken by them via murder. That means at minimum, lowball estimate, guns are a NET GAIN of life, not a net loss. I'd also point out that's a very low estimate by me to make a point. The Clinton Administration did a study that said 2 million lives a year were saved by firearms...but I even think that's too high. I'd say tens of thousands to a hundred thousand may be a fairer estimate (an amalgam of all the studies I've seen and read). But regardless, guns save more lives then they take, and that's what is important to my point here.

I grieve for the families involved...I have myself carried caskets, even of children, from gun violence. But we need to be logical and rational. Gun violence rates aren't caused by guns themselves, as evidenced by rates of gun murder being higher in England where guns are basically banned, as compared to Canada where they are not banned and are far more pervasive per capita.

Percentage chance a gun owner in Canada murders you with a gun = .0012% (1.2 in every 1,000)

Percentage chance a English gun owner murders you with a gun = .0022% (2.2 in every 1,000)

The USA gun murder rate is 10 times England's...but that's because most (almost 70%) of gun murders are commited by criminals over drug crime. The largest number after that is deomestic violence (like against women)...another pervasive problem in our culture. We need to address the way we raise our kids to view domestic abuse (through spanking and other parental abuse on kids via threats), and end the Prohibition on drugs. Between those two types of causes we eliminate 80% of gun murders in the USA. And yes, murder rates, especially by gun, fell by 40%+ after the Prohibition was lifted in 1933.

Unfortunately, we can't strip the rights of 99.974% of gun owners for what the .026% do. Some crazies will kill people, and some will kill kids. It's horrific. But aren't headed toward a police state (if we aren't already there) as it is? I mean drone surveillance, the executive order Obama just signed that expanded on the Bush PATRIOT Act so Americans can be spied upon without even being suspected of any crime or harm? When does it end? When almost 100% of gun owners aren't going to kill, you don't let the state fool you into thinking guns and gun owners are the problem!

Ron B-2757074

the Aurora and Clackamas shootings took place in gun free zones

That depends on the state, here those are not gun free zones.

@RonB from Pittsburgh:
Mark, you know what else kills people? Cancer. Plane crashes. Wild animals.

Here's a clue: we aren't talking about those today. Looking for rational approaches to curbing gun violence doesn't mean we can't also look for rational approaches to curing cancer, making planes safer, or managing wildlife.

Nor does the fact that those other killers are out there provide any logical reason whatsoever not to try to reduce gun violence.

Please.

Um, no. You're talking about guns instead of how to stop murderers... about is disarming a law abiding population, NOT about how to make schools safer or keep the mentally deranged from causing harm to others.
If your approaches were rational, I wouldn't see them as a blatent attempt to make law abiding people even MORE helpless.

You want to reduce gun violence. That's great, so do I. Explain in detail how disarming the law abiding people does that. Because no matter what you say, you know you're talking directly against the findings of the FBI and every state that's instituted concealed carry.

Please.

Parental supervision, or the lack thereof is the most prolific problem, and leads directly to situations like this. With that being said, guns do make it easier to perpetuate mass killings like this. But to look to the government to fix such problems is like having the fox guard the Hen House. We have laws to keep guns out of mentally deranged, and criminals hands, You see how well that's working. When the government can't even balance their checkbook, how do You expect them to effectively regulate gun usage ? It would be nice for there not to be any guns, no tanks, bombs, and everyone to love one another, but it just isn't going to happen. As long as guns exist, there is no way to keep them out of criminals hands. And Sara, Obama is moving toward signing the small arms treaty, which would allow the U.N. to regulate gun control !That way He gets what He wants, but doesn't have to be the bad Guy, spineless Person that He is.

Blah blah blah!

If I was in charge I would try to discover the source of the problem, then try to do something, that could correct it. Bandaids are not the answer, that much I know.

I have noticed that the flakes come out of the cracks, during times of relative peace. You don't have to tell me that there is still war, going on in Afghanistan but maybe, the government and press should mention it to the crazies, rather than hiding it. I don't know why there is a connection between peace and insanity but I don't remember so much during WWII, Korea or viet nam.

If there is a connection, why not put some shrinks to work on it. These days they are afraid to stick their noses above ground. Politicians and the media are really not qualified in mental illness and we are not going to get a solution from them. I think that we are not going to get any help from the psychologists, sociologists and psychiatrists, unless we pass a good samaratan law that will protect them from the liberals, which probably means that we are not going to get any help.

Mass murders have occurred this year in a theater, mall, church, and in at least one school. The two things that connect these tragedies are guns and the idiots who are allowed to own them. This has got to stop.

Wow, this story broke me to tears. I was once an elementary grade teacher - we mostly worried about tornadoes. ALL OUTSIDE DOORS WERE ALWAYS LOCKED - we had a code, if Code 4 was on the intercom, we had an intruder - this could mean a parent abduction - this POS, probably gained access because his mother taught there. I do not claim to be superior to anyone facing a gunman - but as I taught shortly after Columbine, as a teacher, I did my own drills. AS PARENTS, ASK YOUR TEACHER FOR A DRILL THAT HAS BEEN PRACTICED! - More than the school asks alone!

I kept my door locked - not required. When the "code" came as a drill - I had each child hide against a wall, lights turned out ASAP...then I would look through my door (1/2) glass - If I saw a shoe, etc... I would mention the shoe (not child) and give candy to one child (even though I couldn't see 19 out of 20) - to say, good job, how did you hide your legs?..."Everyone practice that...until I see an empty class." The kids were not scared - it was a game, a hiding game with candy too. We were basement level - everyone could fit out a window (and my house was very close).... I always told them to run (to my house) if we heard "bad" sounds on our level [they really could be invisible & quiet] ...and we practiced getting out those windows (first out each window - lollipop, etc...)...the other teachers thought I was stupid, the kids thought of it as another recess...If you are a parent, know where your child's classes are and ask for the teachers to make it "fun" to either hide or exit the building with all children going to a safe place (hiding behind a close house, etc..)....

Every school - buck up and install metal detectors!

PARENTS: - if your child's teacher is not up to running, etc (elderly)... ask if YOU can teach quick exits - candy makes it fun and if practiced often, very effective. Demand your school has drills. Demand your teachers do extra.

May this never happen to any parent, I feel only sorrow - ...I couldn't imagine losing "my" students when I was a teacher - I know I can't imagine the infinitesimal pain these families are going through. May they find peace - although I don't know how.

oneslackr and bryan,

I'm not sure what those statistics mean to you, are what point you are trying to make, but here is what I see:

Despite a 50% increase in NIC checks over the last 6 years, the ratio of murder by gun to other forms of murder has held steady at 68%, while we've had 16% drop in the death rate (either way) in the same amount of time.

So you have a 100% greater chance of being shot to death as killed with all other methods combined -- note that vehicular homicide (drunk driver) is included in these death statistics. Since you didn't list the other methods individually, I can't do a comparison of say, stabbing vs. shot vs. drunk driver vs. smothered, etc. But I think the statistics you gave speak fairly clearly.

ProIndividual

The problem is that these nuts who do mass shotting almost always choose no-gun zones to attack, because it's not going to go over well at places where guns are allowed. How many mass shotings happen at gun ranges or police stations?

Fort Hood would like to speak to you about your retarded theory.

And if you think guns will stop people from shooting at other people, you should probably talk to gang members... see how "peaceful" they are towards other gangs who they KNOW are armed.

Antistupidity,

I know that a mall or a theater is not a gun free zone in every state. I have a license to carry and am well aware that laws differ from state to state. I am also certain that the individuals who carried out those shootins were aware that they were entering gun free zones when they planned their attacks.

Sarah,

My point is this. There are many psychos with grudges against cops. Some will shoot a single cop during a traffic stop to satisfy their need/desire to kill a cop. But, you never see these psychos go into a station and begin shooting because they know they will be shot quickly in return. They will not be able to cause misery to dozens of families if they die in a hail of gunfire before they can carry out their assault.

The threat of cops arriving is inconsequential because of the lengthy reponse time. The psycho has a great deal of time to carry out an attack before cops arrive. Even after cops arrive there is no immediate threat to the shooter because cops don't just storm into these places. How many gunshots were fired in Columbine and Virginia Tech while the cops were outside trying to assess the situation and get their $hit together?

Trained and licensed faculty, or a permanent armed police presence, who have ready access to a firearm could be armed and prepared to defend themselves and their students in a matter of seconds.

Ryan told police that Adam has a history of mental illness, according to the senior official.

So WHEN are we going to address MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES???????????

Why do they keep cutting funding for mental health?

http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=state_budget_cuts_report

Many patients are given medications with little or NO counseling! No one is making sure they are TAKING medications!

THIS is what happens when mentally unstable people get their hands on guns...it has nothing to do with guns! Look at the 22 children stabbed at a school in China today! Do we ban all knives too???

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20723910

Um sailcat, four people were stabbed, this week, in a house in my small home town. Stabbed, as WITH A KNIFE. Should you be so simplistic?

Ron,

I think having an armed POLICE OFFICER in every school is a great idea.

IWonder,

Um sailcat, four people were stabbed, this week, in a house in my small home town. Stabbed, as WITH A KNIFE. Should you be so simplistic?

And 20 children were SHOT, as in WITH A GUN. We can discuss rampage knifings if you would like, but knife control may be a bit more difficult, what with all the steak to cut.

Other forms of murder, do not negate the necessity for a solution, both long term and short term, to gun violence.

Fort Hood would like to speak to you about your retarded theory.

Incorrect...he struck in a place on base where no one was allowed to be armed except MPs who were far away.

And it still wouldn't hurt my theory as it happens FAR LESS in places that guns are allowed, and FAR MORE where guns are not allowed. Reread what I wrote.

Also, drug gangs kill over drugs. Guns are not causal, simply corrolary. I pointed that out too. Anytime you have drugs prohibited, whether alchol or weed or crack, gun deaths increase drastictally. Up to 70% of gun murders in the USA are drug related.

So what can we get from all these stats?

Population matters, as does other factors besides guns themselves:

The whole story is told in the percentage chance a gun owner will murder with a gun - USA is .026%, Canada is .0012%, and England's is .0022%.

As you can see, Canada has a higher rate of ownership of guns and more total guns than England, and yet has a LOWER gun owner murder rate than England! That means it isn't guns that are the factor making England murder more. So why is Canada so low, while England is nearly double that? Why is the USA more than 10 times higher than England?

All of this is adjusted for population and total guns in society...so what is the factor making us so much more prone to murder (even if it is a tiny threat overall to life) here in the USA?

THE DRUG WAR.

In England they have a drug war, but they do not focus on possession. Meanwhile we lock up nonviolent criminals at the almost the exact same rate as violent ones in America. Canada has legal marijuana in some areas, and has for years, and takes a very relaxed attitude toward drug use in general (although they have laws which are largely unenforced).

Just like during the Prohibition of alcohol, murder rates have soared under the Drug War. So has our incarcertations and incarcertation rates...we now lock up more people in total than any other country in the world (yes, even the vastly more populated China and India)! That's total and per capita! "Land of the Free"? Think again. "Land of the prisoner" is more accurate. We arrested more than 800,000 people last year for just marijuana! 86% of those arrests were for small amounts; simple possession misdemeanor charges. It's not only tyrannical, it's a waste of resources which fuels a black market run by criminals, and takes resources away from fighting actual violent crime like theft, property damage, assault, rape, child abuse, and murder.

This War on Drugs (and personal adult freedom) has given us the street gang phenomenon on the scales we see today. Chicago alone has dozens of separate drug gangs. They also have a high murder rate to go along with super-strict gun control in comparison to other cities...because guns aren't the problem, the Drug War is.

In Honduras where gun murders are most common and horribly frequent, they have gun rights...but they also have a country which is a main thoroughfaire for the illegal drug trade. By comparison, Uruguay has almost the same gun ownership rates as the USA and the same gun rights as well, yet they have a lower gun murder rate because they have no war on drugs. In fact, their govt is seriously considering selling marijuana to its citizens to get the drug trade completely above-board!

If you want our rate of murder to decrease via guns you don't take away guns, you end the Drug War. If you have any doubts about this go look at the murder rates after alcohol Prohibition began, and then after it ended. Also look at countries that have already ended their Drug Wars.

Crime rates in Prohibition rose immediately 78%, 24% in just one year from 1920-1921.

http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00492/Crime_Rate.htm

The murder rate was cut in nearly half, from 6 per 100,000 to 10 per 100,000 when Prohibition ended. This was directly caused by the repeal of Prohibition in 1933.

HYPERLINK "http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/alcohol-prohibition-was-failure">http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/alcohol-prohibition-was-failure"http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/alcohol-prohibition-was-failure

So I implore you...look at the stats rationally and logically. Think of why guns don't seem to be the direct cause of gun murders largely, when population, gun ownership, and chances of being killed are accounted for. Why does it appear that drug laws are the driving factor? You should be able, if you are truly open-minded, to come to the following conclusions:

1. Guns are not a major relative threat to life even now in the USA. They kill about 1/3 as many people annually as the simple flu virus. You'd need to be almost 3 times more afraid of the flu than guns, if you were being rational.

2. Even though gun murder is low threat to life, it is still WAY too high when compared with most other countries, apples to apples.

3. The Drug War is in fact the cause of our widespread gun violence...not guns themselves.

Although this mall shooting and some other recent mass shottings are not necessarily drug related, the major bulk of all gun murders are (somewhere between 60-70%). Freedom comes with risks...you cannot get perfect safety, or the very govt you want safety from will become the new threat to you. Some murders will occur, but that is the price of everyone else's (the VAST majority's) freedoms being respected. Gun bans and gun control has had little effect...the most serious factor is the Drug War.

I feel for the families of victims. I myself have carried several caskets of friends who were shot to death. But i lived in drug infested neighbrohood, and although not every dead friend was in the drug trade, even the innocent ones were shot as innocent bystanders in drug turf altercations between violent drug dealers (not all dtrug dealers are violent though, to be fair). The other 30-40% of gun murders in this country that are not drug related are dominated by domestic dipsutes...which no psychologist can guarantee wouldn't have ended in murder anyways had there been no gun present. The root cause of those crimes are violence against women (whether the man or woman was the murderer). That is another pervasive problem in our society. The very tiny minority of gun murders are mass shottings and just plain whackjobs who shoot someone in an argument.

And I'd point out one last thing. The FBI says that 750,000 crimes are foiled per year by guns. If only 2% of those cases are cases where a single life is saved (or 1% of them saves on average 2 lives, alternatively, et cetera), then no less than 15,000 lives are SAVED by guns a year, and that is more than the 13,000 overestimate I gave for lives taken by them via murder. That means at minimum, lowball estimate, guns are a NET GAIN of life, not a net loss. I'd also point out that's a very low estimate by me to make a point. The Clinton Administration did a study that said 2 million lives a year were saved by firearms...but I even think that's too high. I'd say tens of thousands to a hundred thousand may be a fairer estimate (an amalgam of all the studies I've seen and read). But regardless, guns save more lives then they take, and that's what is important to my point here.

I know some people's minds will never change, and I can already hear the ad hominems coming my way. But facts are facts, and they need to be analyzed rationally and logically, not based on particular ideological beliefs, partisan talking points, or based on emotions.

I did all the above math myself in about an hour while using Bing search engine and the stats come from the CDC, DOJ, FBI, and various international sources. I am not a member or supporter of the NRA (I dislike their racist history as a person of color), but I do support gun rights. Please keep your ad hominems, argumentum ad populums, and insults to yourselves. THINK about what I'm telling you here.

Ron

Trained and licensed faculty, or a permanent armed police presence, who have ready access to a firearm could be armed and prepared to defend themselves and their students in a matter of seconds.

You think that's free? You know what that is called? SPENDING

You ready to pay for it?

It may be a great idea but it still makes citizens sheep who need a guard dog around to protect them from wolves. A guard dog is nice, but I would prefer if the sheep had fangs and claws as well.

It just reinforces the notion that we are taught from an early age. "There is never a good reason to fight. Let the authorities handle it", we are taught, that is why school attacks and the terrorist attacks on 9/11 were so successful. We are raised as victims who need to be protected by our government. We should have the fundamental right to protect ourselves at all times. If a teacher wishes to be licensed to have a firearm in school then he/she should be allowed, provided they pass appropriate background tests (although they likely wouldn't be allowed to teach if they couldn't pass a background check).

Ah me sarah, you are just not getting it and I am not the worlds best communicator but I will give it a shot, will you try to meet me half way?

Would you agree that the fellow who killed these kids was crazy? Would you agree that the mall shooter was nuts? Would you agree that the red headed fellow was not all there? How about the one who shot gabby? The one at fort hood?

What is the common denominator? Is it insanity? Is there anything that we can do about it?

Would it make sense to enlist the folks who treat psychos as their profession? I have no answers but does it not make more sense to try to get to the root of the problem, rather than slapping on a bandaid?

Should you be so simplistic?

The thousands of people who have died this year due to handgun violence would argue that it isn't at all simplistic.

First and foremost, my absolute and sincere condolences to the parents, families, friends and loved ones who lost someone today in this totally senseless tragedy.

I've read a lot of posts here today, mostly from anti-gunners, and almost none of anyone posting said anything about the human element of what happened. Everybody, even for just one day, put aside your bickering blame games and concentrate on those poor innocent children and school staff lost today along with all their families and friends. That should not be too much to ask.

ProIndividual

Your "answer" is completely unreasonable. There will ALWAYS be places where there are fewer guns. Your goal to get a gun into EVERY SINGLE HAND is unrealistic... it will not happen.

You think teachers, who spend their life trying to educate children, will be able to react fast enough in a stressful situation like that? What, you think every teacher will turn into a f***ing action movie star when that happens? These people spend their lives educating children and dealing with name-calling, not combat.

And what of teachers who do not want guns in their classroom, do you FORCE them to buy one? Or do you require us taxpayers pay for all those guns? And who pays for all this training? Schools can not even afford new text books, so where the F*** is the money for guns and proper training going to come from? Don't you want to cut education?

Hell, maybe you can hire a private security company... just make sure to charge the parents and not the taxpayers. Then parents can pay a "protection fee" when they send their kids to school. "You want your kid protected, it'll cost ya. Big Tony ova here will make sure yo kid don't get shot, as long as you pay. Capiche?"

Sadly, it seems only too common for people to jump on anything that fits their agenda, including the president. Why can't we try to get to the source of the problem.

First of all my prayers and sympathy goes out to the parents, siblings, and family and friends of those innocent victims of this tragedy.

Now I have a thought that I have not heard discussed today. With the current confidentiality health care laws would a health care professional be aloud to voice their concern about a patient that they believe could be a risk to themselves or others. If so who are they aloud to contact and not get sued? I'll bet they can't do it without getting sued. The fact is they can't which no brings us to this type of tragedy. It is not the guns its is the person that commits the crime and tragedy and I suspect that there are people out there that suspected this could happen with this guy and never said a thing.

These guns today were bought and registered to the mother of this monster. So here goes the registration argument. This guy would never have a back ground checks since he did not buy the weapons. Monsters will find a way to inflect mayhem. If you don't thinks so look at the middle east.

I wonder why did the mother, a teacher, think that she needed these kinds of weapons in here house? Something flipped this guy over the edge and we may never really know the truth.

IWONDER,

The common dominater wasn't just insanity. It was insanity, with a gun in its hands.

Gun owners need to undergo a strict training regimen and a battery of tests in order to qualify as a gun owner. They need to know how to operate and store their weapons and ammunition safely and securely. They need to know all state and federal laws as they pertain to firearms. Applicants who fail to pass the tests or are deemed unfit to possess weapons by the trainers should be denied the opportunity to own a weapon and any weapons already in the possession of the applicant must be confiscated. If, however, an applicant passes the training and testing process, they must undergo regular testing and training updates to ensure they continue to maintain a broad understanding of the responsibilities of gun ownership. This is roughly what people must do get and keep a drivers license. We must do no less for gun ownership.

ProIndividual,

A well stated and rational position. I would agree with your theory.

Sailcat,

I don't need a license to own a car. I need a license to drive a car. I don't need a license to own a gun. I need a license to carry a gun.

I can drive vehicles on my property and not need a license. A license is required to drive on public roads.

I am an old maintenance man sarah, and from vast experience, I will tell you that it is best to fix one thing at a time. Once you have eliminated the basic problem, you normally discover that it was the only problem.

Let's say that you fall off a tall building and splatter on the street below, was it because of gravity? Or you fall in the lake and drown, was it the water's fault?

I would have to say that this shooting was worse than the one at VA Tech, at least those were all adults, these were children.

Besides guns the other thing that nearly all of these school shootings have had in common are that these shooters spent their childhood on one of those behavior controlling drugs - the ones that the schools force parents to make their kids take or don't allow them in school.

When I was a kid going to school, parents and teachers took the time to correct behavior in children without the use of drugs and there were no school shootings. There were guns in people's homes back then and fewer laws constraining the types of guns people could own, so there were more powerful guns owned - there were just none of these behavioral drugs. Of course, there are so many drugs and chemicals in our foods these days that unbalance the brain that I guess it seems logical to throw more drugs at the problem. But, I guess no one wants to take a look at this possibility even though it seems so blatant and obvious with so many of these people who've done these shootings having also been on these types of behavioral drugs. No, instead, focus the attention on something else and maybe put a band aid on that instead. The truth is, there is too much money being made off of these drugs to stop using them - it'd put someone out of work. The same can be said for the gun industry. So, it looks like we'll just have to live with horrific deaths such as this for the time being.

IWONDER,

I'm a young social worker and law student, and I've learned that although we can do better in our addressing of mental health, it is systemic, medical, and will never be "fixed". Therefore, there will always be crazy people, and if you truly want to protect the second amendment, than we need to come up with a way to keep guns out of the hands of the inevitable crazy people.

Sailcat, I am a responsible gun owner and I already underwent such training. It's called 20 years in the U.S. Navy and two wars. Was qualified expert with the Beretta 9mm pistol and sharpshooter with the M-14 rifle. Requalified several times over the years. Nuff said!

There has always been unstable people in the world. A classmate's sister, then about 15, was sexually assaulted and then killed after trying to help a young man previously incarcetrated for sexual deviance. He stopped at their farm to ask directions. That death has stayed with me my entire life which is now is over 60 years. He didn't need a gun, he just strangled her to death.

When I was a kid, the black woman that cared for me, was shot in the head by her angry black husband. That death changed my life.

No many years ago, I was sitting at a light when two young black boys with big hand guns were shooting at each other. The one rested his hand on the hood of my car as he took aim.

Yup, I really hate what guns can do.

This isn't a liberal or conservative issue, but I would say it is a rural vs city issue. Those not raised around fire arms often needed on a farm, are a lot less likely to understand why any gun is needed at all.

So we have always had nuts, always had guns, and yet these sort of sensational killings are becoming too common. Why?

Could it be the light of media. Did this sick kid decide to go out big? So do the worst possible to get the most attention even though in the end he is dead too? His name lives on.

Those killers that survive, what is their punishment? Maybe that is the trouble. Maybe the punishment is too easy.

I do know this for sure. The bad guys will always get the gun they need. It might take a bit longer, but they will eventually get access to one. In this case, the mother legally owned the gun as is reported. Did she know he was that troubled? Did she keep the guns to protect herself?

Let's pray for the families and bless those that survived and RIP those that have been taken.

Ben Franklin said it best-"Anyone who will give up freedom for a little security, deserves neither and will lose both." Gun control does not work. When they outlaw guns, only outlaws and lunatics will have guns.

Our society is failing. Plain and simple. I was raised on a farm. We had firearms of all kinds. we learned how to use them safely and for intended purpose. In fact I would guess that more people per capita had a weapon in thier homes 100 years ago than today. Why were there not mass killings back then ? To me the problem is not the weapon it is the person behind the weapon and the society that raised that person. We live in a time that is filled with the glorified representation of the taking of human life. In additon with the news media covering so much killing around the world we tend to hold less and less value on life. When you are expossed to something over and over it becaome more and more normal whether is is right or wrong . Many video games are so intense and the purpose is to kill people not some ficticious charactor. The moral fiber of this country is dying IMO and until we address that decline, no amount of gun control or training or preperation will stop things like we saw happen today. We are so interested in advancing our own personal freedoms and rights that we have turned our backs on what is good for us all as a society.

This is getting ridiculous. Shooting after shooting, tragedy after tragedy. When are we going to learn?

DID WE NOT JUST HAVE THE OREGON MALL SHOOTING A FEW DAYS AGO? NOW ONLY THREE DAYS LATER OUR KIDS ARE GETTING SHOT UP IN CONNECTICUT? HOW LONG ARE WE GOING TO STAND BY AND MAKE EXCUSES?

Something has to be done. For all those who think guns don't kill, what on earth do you think they were made to do? Throw parties? It's true that people kill with or without guns. Of course it is also true that guns help people kill. Guns are the deadliest handheld weapon we have ever made. We seriously need to consider gun reform. Now before you gun freaks jump all ugly on me, I'm not saying to take away your second amendment. You can still have guns. We just need to be a lot smarter about our gun laws and how we enforce them. No it will not stop every murder, or even every shooting incident. But we seriously need to reform our gun culture so that tragedies like this, which are picking up in frequency, occur much less.

Or are we going to let those poor people, and those poor kids, die without doing a thing like so many victims before them? Will we keep making excuses, while more and more tragedies and death result in increasingly common attacks? Will we continue to make excuses for not going through gun reform, and allow events like this to continue to get more and more common due to our ignorance? It has to stop. If this doesn't qualify as gone too far to continue to deny it, then what does? It shouldn't take tragedies like this for us to change, but we had darn well better change if we want to cut the number of tragedies like this down.

I do not own any guns and never needed them or felt the need to protect myself with a gun, BUT I do believe every law abiding citizen should be able to own one. Millions of people own guns yet a few commit crimes using a gun, and fewer stop crimes with a gun.

On the flip side: everyone argues and some arguments become so heated that eventually a irresponsible person will produce a gun. That is a statistic that just happens due to irresponsible behavior, which is comparable to drunk driving.

Having an armed guard at schools will minimize the amount of deaths but will not solve the problem. As bad as this tragedy is there will be another day that this is going to happen.

In response to Queenies post: mam forget Jesus he can't protect anyone......peeps need 2 protect themselves....don't u know that 2 hands at work will accomplish more than 100 clasped in prayer.....

Two hands at work didn't do sh*t either! Very inconsiderate of you.

Collapse away - but realize that I think people, not necessarily guns are the problem.

Today I asked for an appointment with a doctor, because I was a "new patient," I have to wait until mid-January. OK, I understand.

What if we had mandatory interviews with Psychologists/Psychologists for people who want a gun. I'm not anti-gun but checking a box does not make a person "non-psychotic" during a three day waiting person.

Interviews would be paid for by the gun "want-er," and they would have to pay for it (the Dr.'s time)... I'm not saying it will stop all bad people from having a gun, but - if it gave a better semblance of who could and who couldn't "maybe" that would help. PS: Feds & Cops - you still need to do the background check that IS REQUIRED - don't pretend you all do!

Ah sarah, we haven't met but I will give you credit for trying to meet me half way. You have my respect. My daughter is a psychologist and probably about your age. She is brilliant and I think you are not so bad, either. Both of you have a lot to learn. I certainly don't know it all, but at my age, I'm not likely to learn it either. I will try to pass on any wisdom that I can, not that I am always right.

I do not know about social workers but I know that psychologists have been burned too many times to allow their beliefs to become public knowledge.

Yes, I know that we will never cure all insanity, but these outbreaks are not the norm. What is the trigger? If I was a people person, I would be trying to discover what it is. I'll bet that it is a real condition of cause and effect.

I don't need a license to own a gun.

That must change as soon as possible.

mguy478

Ron

Trained and licensed faculty, or a permanent armed police presence, who have ready access to a firearm could be armed and prepared to defend themselves and their students in a matter of seconds.

You think that's free? You know what that is called? SPENDING

You ready to pay for it?

Gee, cut back on the million dollar football stadiums in high schools (there was $1,000,000 spent on a press box alone in Killeen, TX) and it might be able to cover the less than $80,000 to have 2 full time armed police on premises per school year. Or, instead of spending $500,000,000 on a school, as was done in California, cut back a little on the extravagance and police could be afforded.

By the way, I didn't mean to say that now is not the time for discussion. But there's a difference between discussing and some of these posts which are pursuing personal agendas. Those posts are self evident. I'm just hoping people have a nice healthy dose of thinking about what to do as an answer together rather than what ideas should not be considered. Plus, you know, I will just give you my opinion and impress again, think about the parents of the lost kids and what they might be going through.

Sailcat,

It won't change unless the Constitution for the U.S. of A. is changed. I don't see that happening any time soon. Having a license doesn't stop stupidity, irresponsibility or crazy behavior. If being licensed did stop these things then we wouldn't have thousands of drunk driving related deaths each year.

Derek,

Well said.

IWONDER,

I thank you for meeting me 1/2 way, as well. And, I DO respect the wisdom that comes with age. Especially when one has the wisdom to admit they probably won't learn anything else, lol.

As a people person, I wonder too about the triggers. How does this happen? It's beyond my comprehension. At least for the moment. ;)

Gee, cut back on the million dollar football stadiums in high schools (there was $1,000,000 spent on a press box alone in Killeen, TX)

Ron,

You think Republicans will cut back on their football?

Even better, you think Texas Republicans will cut back on high school football?

Ok... I didn't realize we were living in a fantasy world and coming up with ideas that will NEVER happen. In that case, why don't we attach force fields that repel bullets to every child?

Actually, THAT idea is more likely to happen before yours does.

It won't change unless the Constitution for the U.S. of A. is changed.

Not true. There is nothing contained in the Second Amendment that says gun ownership cannot be licensed and regulated. Nor is there anything in the 2nd Amendment that says the unfettered ownership of assault rifles, .50 cal sniper rifles, large caliber handguns, and other pointless toys should be allowed any more than the ownership of machine guns is allowed. All it takes is responsible legislation and one little supreme court ruling. That's all.

I think a life is more important than any right as the right to life takes president. What the heck was the kids mother doing with 4 guns in the house with a son with mental problems?More Amendments needed and the Constitution needs to be re-written to make it apply to America today not America of 300 years ago and the Wild Frontier!

CoCo-1551796 wrote:

" ...Obama went to Michigan and revved up the Union protestors. The union persons were extremely violent beating other persons tearing down a tent that had a leagal permit with women and people in wheelchairs inside putting their lives at risk. Several congressmen approved of this behavior along with the president. They shouted there will be blood shed and today there was. When country leaders approve of violence to get their way, right or wrong, mentally unstable people feel they have the green light to do their own violence."

CoCo, please try to bring your partisanship in check. The president did not approve of any violent behavior. No congressman approved of violent behavior. The protests in Michigan by Union members and supporters of worker's collective bargaining rights, ...and the counter-protests by supporters of the Republican legislation in the state assembly ...did not lead to this horrific event in Connecticut today anymore than they led to the mass shooting at a shopping mall in my own state, earlier this week (although I also saw that claimed by posts similar to yours).

The boogeyman that you visualize in the Oval Office, that you see as the root of all evil and the source of all of the ills of our society, does not exist. That boogeyman is a figment of your own imagination, and is a fabrication of the media voices whom you choose to listen to, and who guide, and influence and reinforce your own thinking. Turn off the broadcast media, and seek some balance in your reading and thinking. Expand your information sources.

Your post above -- connecting completely disconnected events in order to support your own outcomes (conclusions) -- suggests "motivated reasoning." You might want to do some reading about forms of cognitive dissonance, and if you recognize anything seek some counselling.

CoCo, President Obama has never approved of violence, nor has he ever approved of violent protest. Try really hard to see the world as it actually is, rather than through the comparitively foggy lenses of partisanship.

So, why are these people going nuts? Is it despair? History shows that it is not the norm.

With the internet, it should be simple to put our finger on it. Is it worse by eras and if so, why? Is it by presidential terms? Congressional terms? Wartime? Peacetime?

Seems like it has been worse during obama's tenure but my memory is not too good. If it is true, then why? If there is something the government is doing that makes us crazier than normal, can we change it?

I remember the guy at the university of texas, the one at Luby's. What was the political environment at the time? How hard would it be to find out. I'll wager that somewhere there is a psychologist, smirking, because he is stunned by our stupidity.

I wonder,

The trigger for the two mass killings here in Wisconsin was the nut case governor Wacko Walker's push for"Conceal and Carry!": Nothing like this had happened before until his NRA sponsored law.

Since it was enacted we've also had two unarmed young people executed by a man who felt threatened when he found them in his home. A boy was shot and killed when a homeowner felt threatened and went outside and shot the boy who was hiding under his porch! Walker should be charged with murder or a part of it!

proindividual,

I will never own a gun, never allow one in my house, never never never. I wouldn't let my cousin bring one in in her suitcase. She was so stubborn and insisted she had 2nd Amendment rights. I told her she did and she could sleep in a motel. The stubborn gal did! I was pleased with my rights! We need to take them away from people and to heck with the 2nd Amendment!

proindividual,

I will never own a gun, never allow one in my house, never never never. I wouldn't let my cousin bring one in in her suitcase. She was so stubborn and insisted she had 2nd Amendment rights. I told her she did and she could sleep in a motel. The stubborn gal did! I was pleased with my rights! We need to take them away from people and to heck with the 2nd Amendment!

Consider it took 319 posts for people to realize they were all responding to a simple notion thrown up.

Seems like it has been worse during obama's tenure

Pretty scummy attempt to blame Obama for this tragedy, IWonder, but your kind rarely refuses an opportunity to stoop to sub-basement levels to blame an innocent third party for things like this. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, though.