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Topeka Police Department
Cpl. David Gogian, 50, had been with the Topeka Police Department since September 2004.
TOPEKA, Kan. — A police standoff in connection with the fatal shootings of two Topeka, Kan., police officers ended with the suspected gunman dead from police fire early Monday, according to local officials.
After the man refused to exit a home police had surrounded, officers launched tear gas to drive him out.
“At approximately 6 a.m., after numerous attempts to make contact with the individual, gas was deployed, and the suspect came out carrying a gun,” Jay Simecka of the Shawnee County Sheriff’s Office said in a press release. “Shots were fired by law enforcement, and the suspect was hit and transported to a local hospital for treatment. It is unknown at this time if the suspect fired the gun he was carrying.”
The man, who police identified as 22-year-old David Edward Tiscareno of Topeka, later died from his wounds at the hospital, NBC station KMBC in Kansas City, reported.
Police believe Tiscareno shot and killed Cpl. David Gogian, 50, and Officer Jeff Atherly, 29, while they were responding to a report of a suspicious vehicle at a grocery store. The gunman opened fire on them within minutes of their arrival.
They died later at the hospital, Topeka Police Chief Ronald Miller said, calling the shootings “unspeakable,” the Associated Press reported.
A third officer was at the scene when the shooting happened, but was not injured.
Topeka Police Department
Officer Jeff Atherly, 29, had been with the Topeka Police Department since April 2011.
Miller said there was more than one person in the vehicle that police were investigating. Officers later found the vehicle outside a house about 10 blocks from the grocery store, but when they searched the home they didn't find the shooting suspect, the AP reported.
The chief declined to say why officers were investigating the vehicle and why it was considered suspicious.
A small crowd met for a candlelight vigil outside police headquarters after hearing about the shooting. As the group gathered, police officials announced to reporters nearby that the officers had died, the AP reported.
Gogian started with the Topeka Police Department in September 2004. Atherly had been with the department since April 2011.
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Leave a Comment:
When will this crap end? I f'in hate guns.
You probably hate gravity too.
Jim is the master of the irrelevant comeback. Very pointless of you, Jimmy.
It is not about guns. It is about the way society is becoming more rude and more violent to start with. Back when I was in high school (early 80s) the per capita of guns to population was at about the same as it is now but back then you didn't have this violence going on. No, it isn't all to blame on tv or violent video games but they do play a big part in it. There is a huge break down in the civility of our nation. You see it everyday with the driver who is weaving all over the lanes while texting and if you blast your car horn at them (to try and prevent them from side swiping you) you get the finger or they try and incite a road rage incident. You see it at the movie theater where inevitably some idiots think they have the right to be disruptive during the show. You see it at the restaurants where you take your family to dinner and someone thinks it is ok to talk loudly on their cell phone and use foul language. Parents don't know how to raise their kids and rarely ever discipline them. Then we wonder why they become criminals or killers when they get older and some blame the gun. Yes, a gun does make it easier to kill but it also makes it easier to defend a family as well. According to the FBI, guns were used 2.5 million times last year to stop a crime by private citizens. If those 2.5 million folks didn't have their firearms then I could pretty well guess the murder rate in this country could be ten fold of what it is. Last week in Clackamas county Oregon a civilian stopped the guy shooting up the mall with his concealed weapon. The citizen never fired a shot and the assailant ran from the scene of the shooting and shot himself. So the argument that these people are hell bent on killing others and don't care because they plan to die anyways doesn't float here. otherwise this guy would have tried to shoot it out with the citizen who was pointing his gun at him.
You can read about it here.
http://www.examiner.com/article/media-blackout-oregon-mall-shooter-was-stopped-by-an-armed-citizen
So parents, hug your kids and tell them that you love them but do what my parents did as well and teach them right from wrong and don't be afraid to be a little harsh in your discipline
@davefromdanapointca
Yes. The good old reliable 'guns don't kill people. people kill people' garbage. I suppose bombs grenades, bombs, nuclear explosives, tanks, and all other forms of weapons that are forbidden from private ownership don't kill people either...
More guns didn't do much good in this case.
@zaruski
Only when instructed to do so by PEOPLE.
Over 20 Million Law Abiding Gun Owners in the United States and a few bad apples to give Gun Ownership a black eye. If people didn't have guns they would use knives and sticks. Nobody will ever take all the guns. Guns were taken away in England, Australia and Canada. Now, Only the bad guys have guns and Criminals ruel.
davefromdanapointca, you're exactly right, and the key to the whole problem is your comment:
America let the liberal "we know better than you" nutcases ruin the country with their "Don't spank your kids" and other similar nonsense.
I left America. I spanked my kids. And now I have one son in Med school and a second son in high school also on his way to something admirable.
Deweydan , There is a hell of a lot more than 20 million gun owners in this country. Maybe add another 100 million to your number and you'll be in the ball park.
You think all this violence start now? You must have not pay attention to newspaper back then.
These things happen a lot before, it's just that people rarely know about it and it usually happens locally. Now we have internet, we can learn thing half way across the world in an instant.
The violence we have right now is almost the same scale as before. The target is different. Time changes, target change.
@ Zaruski,
No one is advocating the ownership of bombs and nukes. Your tired old argument makes you sound unintelligent and shows you have an irrational vision preventing you from have a rational debate.
You come trolling on here and want to insult others while not supplying one idea as to a cause or solution. That makes you part of the problem. You will never be able to confiscate all the privately owned firearms in this country and are only going to end up with a lot more dead cops in the process. That is why most cops would say no to that idea. I asked a friend in law enforcement that very question and he said "NO WAY" he would rather resign.
Think long and hard about banning the 2ND amendment. Once you allow the government to do that all your other rights under the constitution will become endangered species as well. The first will be freedom of speech. Unpopular talk will land you behind bars. Unlawful search and seizures will be next as there is nothing you can do to protect yourself against it. On and on and on. Not the slippery slope you want to go down if you appreciate your rights.
These shootings are awful. But blaming it on a gun isn't the reason why they happened. School psychiatrist prescribing psychotic drugs to every kid he deems to have any type of social ill isn't helping either and neither is the fact he is given an incentive from the drug companies to do so. Parents let their kids do what they want these days and it isn't working. I see too many of them turning out to be bad apples. They don't even know what reality is anymore. They sit in their rooms playing video games like grand theft auto and call of duty or watchng violent movies and then they go and act out the role in the real world.
There isn't one easy answer to this problem. There is a lot of blame to go around, but the majority of the blame lies on who and how kids are raised and that needs to be changed. Denying that won't improve the situation one iota.
Really Cuong? We didn't have the scale we have today.
And criminals rule, deweydan ?
I suggest you compare crime rates in countries you mentioned to those in the United States.
MJ - This "crap will end" when the Gun-Free Zone signs are replaced with signs reading "Adults in this school are trained and armed with various types of firearms. Do not enter these buildings with a gun or any other weapon or you will be shot".
A Gun Free Zone sign means - The people in these buildings are unarmed and locked in. We cannot escape. We cannot defend ourselves. So, if you are a nut case wanting to kill some people, just come on in.
I wonder if any of the teachers, janitors, staff wondered for just a spilt second, "I wish I had a gun"???????
And what IF they did have a gun? Lives would most likely have been saved.
It's a pointless debate. People who want to own guns will never admit that they are a danger to society. People may kill people , but guns make it WAY easier for a person to kill a bunch of people all at once who have little ability to defend themselves against the bullets. Even if you are armed, your chances of surviving a surprise attack are minimal. It does not make me feel safer knowing there are people around me with concealed weapons, it makes me worry how intelligently they will behave in a crisis.
And most people who are parents today won't fess up to the fact that they sukk at it - they leave the job of parenting to the X BOX in their kids' rooms.
If you're going to dish out blame, the least you can do is put it where it belongs.
Condolences to the families of these fallen officers.
You people with this sick obsession with little kids butts are creepy. You do know that there are violent criminals who were routinely beaten as kids, right? Can you please show me the proof that these shooters were not hit as kids? Do you know that we are probably the only civilized nation where kids are still routinely beaten in schools by basically two by fours by government employees. And you're advocating MORE violence? How manly of you. You can beat up kids. We're impressed. Are you aware that there have been several shootings that happened after the kid was beaten? If beatings stop this, why would that be the case? But again..where's the proof that these shooters were not routinely hit in the home? As someone who deals with troubled kids, I can tell you that the most troubled are VERY familiar with HARSH discipline. The kids who are hit, are normally the bullies.
I was never hit, my husband was never hit and our kids were never hit. We had parents with integrity. Anyone can torture a two year old. They chose to lead by example, defining discipline as teaching and guiding, not bodily torture. We did the same. Three out of three of our kids earned academic scholarships and one was a Presidential Scholar Award winner.
And when someone commits murder using a knife, where is all the anti-knife propaganda?
The police stated that they were looking for a 22 year old so they must have have a good discription of the shooter yet MSNBC fails to provide any discription other then the age?????? The only conclusion to come to is that the shooter is black.
We will talk about murder with knives when they become as deadly efficient at mass murder as a gun. The notion that the 2end is necessary to defend all other rights is a brain wash. You have NOTHING in your house that will stop the US military if it follows orders to take away your rights. OFC, your lucky because the US military is unlikely to follow such orders.
There is another amendment to the constitution that holds just as much meaning as the 2end. That amendment is the 14th. The 14th, among other things protects American's right to LIFE. No government in the US can deprive a person of the right to live without DUE PROCESS. If the government can not deprive people of life for no reason, then neither can an ordinary citizen.
Yeah, you can defend yourself with deadly force, but when your gun is taken by a person who should not have it to commit murder, or, in the commission of self defense your round takes the life of an innocent by stander, then your 2end Amendment was used to strip someone of their 14th...
The brainwash about defending against the modern military with your peeshooter is just that, brainwash and by the time you fully understand that, you would be under an M1A1 without the army even flinching about your weapons.
Again though, you do not need to worry about that. Your brothers and sisters in the US Armed services will not obey orders to take your freedoms. They have just spent the past 20 years in one conflict after another to protect them..
The assertion your 2end is more important or used in anyway to support my 14th is a bald faced lie, and it needs to be exposed as such.
It was a law abiding citizens guns that where used to destroy young lives. Either you people secure your weapons or people will be glad to take them from you.
From the POLICE REPORTS -- not "telephone surveys" -- in Britain and Wales, where the private ownership of firearms is so restricted that perhaps only 2% of the people have a firearm:
ukcrimestats.com/
Please note that in October alone, there were 53,871 VIOLENT crimes in two nations, which even combined have far fewer people than the U.S. (census.gov). Now take a look at Switzerland, where Citizens are REQUIRED to keep their military firearms in their homes after being discharged from the Military -- and the highest per-capita rate of (legal) firearm ownership in the world:
Murders with firearms: As of 2002.......a total of 68 -- compared to the U.S., which had 9,369 (nationmaster.com/compare/Switzerland/United-States/Crime). Keep in mind that the Swiss population in 2002 was 7,301,994 in an area only slightly larger than twice the area of New Jersey; it was still less than 8 million in 2010. The U.S. population in 2002 was 280,562,489. (faqs.org/docs/factbook)
Now, what was that you were saying about comparing crime rates?
7.67,
Give us some back-up on your conclusion "besides" you being a racist.
Really? That's your only possible conclusion? Based on what you have written here, the only conclusion to come to is that you must be white...... Yes, that was sarcasm, you racist.
@The Quacked One
The last time I checked, the Swiss have a tighter control over the ammo that goes with those guns. This might not have been the best example.
Guns were not taken away in Canada,
There are a few restrictions to owning a hunting rifle, like following a gun safety training course.
And there a a lot of restrictions to owning a handgun.
I know a lot of peoples who have hunting rifles and shotguns at home. But I only know of one person owning a handgun, and it's a six-shooter probably too old to to fire.
And no criminals don't rule. Very far from it. You'd have to be one huge chicken@!$%# to be afraid of criminals in a country with such a low criminal rate.
QE137;
Here is the full text of the 14th Amendment:
1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.
3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
Your thinking that it pertains to self-defense of private citizens is not just wrong, it is dead wrong. You would have every person in the U.S. unarmed, unable to actually defend themselves against corrupt ARMED police, corrupt ARMED government agents, and ARMED criminals.
Next time you need to call the police and there are only a few seconds before you or someone else is either injured or killed -- just remember that the police are only minutes away.
Jo-3665773;
Here is a link for the statistics on Canada: statcan.gc.ca/pub/12-581-x/2012000/cri-eng.htm
Take a good look at it, ALL of it. Then tell everyone how there is very little crime in Canada. Last time I checked, rape and assault were up-close and personal -- and extremely violent -- crimes.
"Jim is the master of the irrelevant comeback. Very pointless of you, Jimmy."
You accomplished the same thing while failing to add your usual, "Only police should have guns."
For the next 90 dyas...ANY story that has anything to do with guns will be spread all over the media...these trolls want to sell newspapers and advertising...not cover valid news....
@The Quacked One
I said the 14th protects life and it dose. BTW, what weapons do you possess that takes you toe to toe with the US Gov?
I carry no guns and I am no more likely to be a victim of a criminal then someone who carries a gun. I have been trained to defend myself with both close in hand to hand and to deal with gun carriers with nonlethal weapons. I am as certain of my ability to disarm you as you are that your gun will be of use against me.
The fact that you think a gun is the only protection in the 21st century is an extension of your brainwash. You would never forget folly of pointing a weapon at someone trained with the same or better self defense capabilities. Can I be shot using my methods? Yep, but I have no more risk of that then you do with a gun.
I will be one of many training people in self defense without a gun. Our aim will be to make people think 2 times before they show a gun in public, let alone try to use one. Will we be successful? I don't know, but I do know that if you ever put a gun at someone like me, you will find out real fast how utterly useless it was.
By the time I call the police, the purp with a gun will be blind, on the ground and waiting to be taken away.
Last time I checked, a person has to show I.D., proving that they are at least 21 years old, to buy ammunition in the U.S. They also have to prove that they are authorized to buy armor-piercing ammo, when they do buy it. And if they are a known felon, they are subject to arrest for and conviction of yet another felony. How is that any "looser" than what is done in Switzerland -- where all adults are REQUIRED to have their military guns, with the ammo for those guns, in their homes?
Criminals simply do not care about laws, and will simply ignore laws. That is what makes them criminals. Look at how strict the gun (and if they could do it, ammunition) laws are in Chicago -- the "Murder Capital" of the U.S.A. There is a definite correlation there, but you choose to not see it.
Your example of how my example was not the best is also not a very good example.
QE137
The 14th Amendment does not "protect life" at all. It protects your right to life -- but it does not in any way protect life itself. You seem to think that you can defend yourself against any attacker no matter the circumstances, such as with you confined to a wheelchair or on crutches -- or when faced with more than one attacker.
You really are not any safer than I am with my legally-owned and legally-carried gun when faced with a criminal and their illegally-owned and illegally-carried gun.
Know why there are so few home-invasions in places where people are allowed to have guns? IT'S BECAUSE THOSE WHO DO THE HOME-INVASIONS DON'T WANT TO GET SHOT.
@The Quacked One
Head on over to Switzerland and try to by some Ammo, then tell me how well that worked for you. When I said it is more tightly controlled, thats what I mean. If you are suggesting that less crime is the result of the mentality of the people there, you are correct on that, but that is not the only reason for the lower gun play.
[quote]
Rafal W
And criminals rule, deweydan ?
I suggest you compare crime rates in countries you mentioned to those in the United States.[/quote]
The crime rate in other countries that banned guns is much higher than in the united states. For example, when australia banned guns, their crime rate jumped well over 200%.
F'ing bull@!$%#. I can't believe the stupidity of people suggesting that gun crimes will end when we arm MORE people in classrooms. The logical disconnect here is astounding...
I mean seriously. You people are nuts. Sure, there is a small, infinitesimal chance that had a teacher been armed in this school they could have taken the shooter down earlier, more likely, they would have presented an easy target considering he had an assault rifle and would have only enraged and further armed him, but alas, let's assume you're average 5th grade teacher is as skilled with a weapon as Rambo. Fine, MAYBE the severity of this incident could have been lessened.
But of course, by arming everyone, every bar fight, road rage incident, and stadium parking lot argument would end in homicide (as everybody's packin') and would these idiots response be to that? Why of course, MORE GUNS!!!
The people that argue this strongly in support of more guns are EXACTLY the type of people that should be prevented from owning guns. They're nuts.
The 14th amendment protects my RIGHT to life, just like the 2ned protects your right to carry. The 14th may not literally protect my life, but it dose give me the right to live. The 2end gives you the right to carry a gun. It also would be CONSTITUTIONAL to place restrictions and limitations on that right within reason to protect an other CONSTITUTIONAL right, such as the 14th. The attitude that any restriction is an abridgment of the 2end that can not be tolerated is a farce.
It was a legal gun owners weapons that cost 20 kids their lives. She did NOT secure those weapons. She exorcised her 2end irresponsibly and it cost 20 kids their right to LIVE. How do any of us know how many legal gun owners are just like this woman? Why should there not be tight restrictions based on that alone? There is no good reason.
I did not say my self defense makes me less likely to die, I said it makes me no more likely to die in self defense as someone who caries a gun. All the weaknesses you listed such as wheel chairs and such are an impediment to ANY form of self defense, including using a gun. It is a lot like a gun carrier being shot in the back of the head by a purp BEFORE they even knew they had a need to use their weapon in self defense.
No defense is a 100% deal, but someone with a gun entering my house would leave in handcuffs blind and alive and I would not have been in any greater danger of being shot while blinding the purp as you would have been in shooting back at him because my blinders work at range. I don't have to be close to him to disable him.
The point is, that if you have a gun, you should be willing to accept the full reality that other legal gun owners have been reckless enough to lose control of their weapons and that is enough proof that something more needs to happen with these weapons then are being done right now.
In combo with mental health services and a gun owner registry that the general public has access to, we should be able to reduce this and protect everyone's rights.
@1devon.......You and your like minded ilk is what has totally destroyed this nation in every concievable way possible. If and when there ever is another civil war in this nation it will be started BECAUSE of you and your ilk and your totally irrational ass backward way of thinking.
Once again an armed dangerous fugitive at large and NO DISCRIPTION? only 22yr. old? Can the media but aside their political agenda for a moment and do a little public service?
America is crazy for guns, the rest of the "civilized" world is perplexed at our laissez-faire stupidity, it is way past the time for sanity to prevail and for reasonable minds to crush the gun lobby, and enact sensible ,enforceable gun laws...this gun crap is pathetic, and the USA stand embarrassed among "civil societies" of the World.
We have lost our Moral Authority as a "civilised society".
Me and my ilk? I raised three children who weren't tortured as discipline. They are excelled in school, are kind, compassionate and self sufficient adults. As a nation, we still beat kids in public schools. Routinely. As a guardian ad litem, I can tell you that the interest of our courts is always with the abusers 'right' to torture a child at the expense of the child victim. Keeping the family together, aka returning the child victim to the abuser time and time again, often resulting in the death of the child, trumps the child's right not to be tortured for being born a child. Americans routinely brutalize their kids. Those kids are not better off for it. Discipline should be teaching and guiding, leading by example and establishing healthy routines and attitudes. Sadly, people like you define it as the physical torture of infants, toddlers and young children. More kids are killed by this mentality in an average year than by a psycho who has easy access to guns.
Again, please show me the PROOF that this shooter, raised in a state where I believe kids are still beaten in schools, was never hit. That's your answer to everything right? Beat the kids more and more and all violence will go away? Delusional. Believe it or not, you can trace massacres commited by people of all ages back to the dark ages. A couple of things have changed: easier access to more dangerous weapons, a sharp decline in affordable care for the mentally ill, and a news media that will ensure that the killer will get the notoriety many of them seek.
You think all children who are hit in the home will automatically be just fine. Go to your local prison and talk to many of the violent offenders about their childhood. There's a reason abusers don't fare will in our prison system.
On the same day this tragedy happened, a man went ballistic in a school in China with a knife. Many kids were injured. ALL are alive. Therein lies the difference. Nobody is saying we should ban all things that can be dangerous, just use commons sense. I know, I know...if we simply brutalize more kids, ignoring the fact that many violent offenders were brutalized as kids, everything will be okay, right? Again, delusional. And sick. The gun man massacred kids, you want them all beaten. The mentality, violence is best, is not that much different.
DrowningGrover,
Gun nut here. If I knew "everybody" was packin' heat, I wouldn't start and argument in the first place. Funny how you mention that everyone with guns are nuts etc...
And in the same comment mention that if the teacher was packin' heat, this tragedy may have been minimal.
BTW, I've been highly trained with both pistols and rifles and it's a well known fact that at close range (or within 100 feet) a pistol has the advantage over a rifle since a rifle is more cumbersome, takes two hands to raise to the shoulder "THEN" you still have to aim whereas a pistol would've pulled off 3 to 5 shots by then.
As I mentioned to others like you, good luck beating down a home invader with a roll of paper towels (since you're such a law abiding citizen and don't own a gun) while he's pointing the barrel at you.
Have a nice day...
CD
Rubber bullets work better then paper towels, They are even available in 12 gauge scatter pellets. But, hey, if your only idea is deadly force,then that is all you know.
@1devon (the rest of you excuse my rant)
No! What's "creepy" is not being able to go anywhere...not to McDonald's, not the grocery store, the mall, the theatre, a concert....without the FEAR of these "me, me, me. I'm the only one that matters...me and my feelings" brats having a temper tantrum in public and taking the lives of hundreds of innocent people and CHILDREN, just because they didn't get their way like mommy and daddy usually does for them.
This taking their phone or computer away for 2 hours when they call you a "b1+ch or threaten to kill you or someone else, ISN'T WORKING! They have absolutely ZERO RESPECT for anyone but themselves because you all pamper and pet them throughout their lives, telling them how special they are. Yea, they're special alright. Special self-serving lunatics with no manners or morals or remorse for anything they do or say, or the way they treat other people. Why do you think they HAVE these temper tantrums? Because mommy threatened to take my phone away, but then gave it back. She wouldn't DREAM of spanking me. That's child abuse! Oh, and I'll call CPS or DHS if she touches me!
Oh yes...real special children aren't they? Gosh, when does it sink in that that special child of yours is holding you down with a knife at your throat? Or worse! Out on a killing spree!
It's not an obsession with children's little butts. It's the reality that children without discipline become hateful, improperly trained BRATS, and you expect the rest of the world to abide by their every whim, just so you don't have to be the "bad guy" and can remain their "friend" as they grow. Apparently that isn't working either, because a whole lot of these "special" children...your "friends", are KILLING their parents, grandparents, siblings and others.
I am sick to death of your brats pushing me around in public, calling me names and getting away with rude and obnoxious behaviors even when you're standing right there WITH them, because God forbid you actually have to discipline this creepy little hellion. That would hurt his feelings. Oh boo-hoo!
What about the feelings of those 20 little children and their teachers and administrators? What about the feelings of those students and faculty of Virginia Tech? What about Aurora...the feelings people went through in a theatre massacre that was supposed to be just a friggin fun night out? What about the cops that just got killed in Kansas? I bet those killers never felt a hand across their arse either!
That's just a few. Good Lord WAKE the h311 up, America! You are creating a hellacious nightmare for the rest of us with your "precious" psychos!
Oh, and before you give me the same "beaten children" speech as you spewed about in an earlier post....don't bother. There is a HUGE difference in disciplining a child with a whipping, and beating a child!
LEARN the difference! I was whipped and by God, I know what is right and wrong, good and bad. I KNOW respect for others and their property. I KNOW not to hurt someone else. I KNOW my dad loved me and I KNOW everything he did was BECAUSE of that love. He taught me how to take care of myself and how to feel compassion and love for others. NOT JUST MYSELF!
And I didn't grow up mentally broken because I caught a smack or two either. And yes, maybe my feelings were hurt at the time of the spanking...but it certainly didn't last throughout my childhood or adulthood and I knew WHY I was getting it and learned not to do that particular thing again!
Perhaps YOU would be smart enough to not start a parking lot argument, but do you trust everyone else out there to do the same? I don't. And you completely missed my point about an armed teacher possibly saving a few lives in this Connecticut incident. Perhaps, if everyone were armed, in this ONE incident, a few lives might have been saved (but more likely than not, it wouldn't have mattered as the kid had more firepower than anything anyone in the school would have had), but it would come at the expense of 1000's of more gun homicides every year, because again, everyone's armed.
By arming everyone, you're trading the minute possibility that someone might play Rambo in one particular incident for the far more likely scenario of tragic gun death incidents increasing ten fold...
I'm not so much worried about a home invader as I am my own weapon being used against me by a spouse, friend, family member, or just a freak accident (you know, as is statistically speaking, FAR MORE LIKELY TO HAPPEN IN HOMES WITH FIREARMS IN THEM).
For every person that fights off a home invader with their personal firearm, there are 100's more that die by the hand of their own gun in a domestic dispute...
And in addition, I am not arguing that people should not be allowed to keep a handgun or hunting rifle in their home, i'm completely fine with that to some extent (provided they are locked up so that kids can't access them). But those arguing that we should just arm everybody, including teachers and administrators in our schools, are completely bat@!$%# crazy and should not be listened to. Period.
The criminals are getting smarter now. They aimed for the heads first and didn't even say hello to the cops. It was too much for the third cop so he decided to quit.
"The last time I checked, the Swiss have a tighter control over the ammo that goes with those guns. This might not have been the best example." - QE137
Actually, people are also required to have their weapon (SIG Steyr) loaded and/or ammo readily available.
FYI I lived in Switzerland for a short while.
Well, I wasn't and I've never been in even the slightest amount of trouble.
It's quite simply not as black and white as you make it out to be. Kids can be punished and their misbehaving dealt with, effectively, without physically hurting them. No doubt that lots of parents nowadays aren't parenting well enough, but that doesn't have to mean hitting them.
It's not even about being "too liberal". Some of the parents I know who treat their kids exactly the way you seem to dislike are conservative politically. So you can lay off the blame game.
Sorry but your wrong, the shooter was First Nations, nDn,
There is only one Race The Human Race.
1devon - pain is the great educator. If you do something like stick your hand in a fire and get rewarded with pain you usually don't do that again. If your child talks back or doesn't clean their room when told to and they get spanked a few times they will learn to not talk back or to clean their room when told. No one is talking about torturing children. They are talking about teaching their children what is right and what is wrong. If you do something wrong and there is no consequence then why not do it again. Yes there are parents and people that don't know when enough is enough when it comes to spanking a child, but the solution was to fix the symptom not treat the disease, like it should of been.
@ the quacked one,
We were talking comparison, not crime rate alone.
Go read this direct comparison and come back :
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/85-002-x2001011-eng.pdf
Homicide rate 3 time higher in the US.
and:
"Similarly, the aggravated assault rate in the U.S. was more than double the Canadian rate in 2000.
The U.S. also showed a higher rate of robbery (65% higher) than Canada. About 41% of robberies
in the U.S. involved a firearm, compared to 16% in Canada."
Granted this report is from 2000, but since both country share the same trend in crime, both would have less crime than in 2000 but the ratio would not change much.
@ Matt,
Since guns are not banned in Australia then I guess your point is void.
Know what "banned" mean ?
1devon, you're full of it! Children are not beaten in schools here (Kansas). Nice of you to take a verbal shot at all Kansans as being backwoods rubes. Nice to know that your liberal views are the only views that should be allowed. If you want to talk down to someone then go look in a mirror and talk down to yourself!
The only good out of this is the cops killed the guy and saved the tax payers Millions....
Only PART of the story. Yes, the Swiss have the firearms. But first, they are ALL military trained. And no, they are not required to keep their firearms after being discharged ... ONLY while still in the "reserves". After they get out they can CHOOSE to keep it, but if they do the rifle is sent to the factory and reworked so that it is no longer an automatic weapon.
Additionally, the Swiss USED to be issued sealed boxes of ammunition, which were periodically inspected to make sure there was no tampering on the ammuition. However, about four or five years ago, the Swiss passed a law that said no more, and all who had it had to return it and it wasn't issued after that. They can still purchase and use ammuntion for the firearms at ranges and other shooting facilities.
A great quote from a BBC article:
We don't have that sense of responsibility toward weapons in this country. We have the "take it from my cold, dead fingers" attitude.
Guns, knives, bombs, cars, .... do NOT kill. PEOPLE KILL. Remember when locking steering wheels was going to make car theft a thing of the past? All it did was create car-jackings, a more serious crime. Making devices like guns more difficult to obtain will not make things better. The bad guys will always find what they need/want.
Remember when we had government sponsored mental health care? It was closed down because it was too expensive. People who made that decision are IGNORANT. This is the result. We need to bring back mental health care and we need to carry out executions for those who commit willfull serious crimes.
#1.3 - Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:47 PM PST
davefromdanapointca said
Can you show me where you saw that stat?
It's time to make the guns hard to get. More guns don't help...what about the 4 cops shot in the starbucks in washington I think it was? They were armed and still couldn't stop the person shooting.
Shhh, don't argue logic with people... the mere discussion of gun control endangers their Second Amendment rights... (as if there can ever be such a thing as Prohibition for guns in this country!)
That's because they're lazy and stupid. Guns make cops only more dangerous and more stupid.
Cops have the support of each other. How does some vigilante who owns weapons shooting them off in the forest by themselves make them justify the 2nd amendment. Cops are there to serve the public. More regulation is what is needed not an outright ban. For example at the Clackamas shooting incident there was a concealed permit holder who was right there with the shooter who ended up getting tunnel vision and was worried about hitting bystanders so he didn't use his firearm. You need training and you need the support of others as well. If you belong to some community ran group who designate permit holders responsibilities then that is different.
How come you libtards never show up to comment on one of the countless stories of gun owners who are able to stop a criminal?
jimbo,
Open your eyes. What do you see?.......... Your colon?!......Ohhhh,..... reahihihllly.
GM CD
I am pretty sure it is a "Chitty" view at best!
But they make other people smart, jimboza, right?
News Flash: Cops and private citizens are members of the same species. The species which put a man on the moon, but also invented lawn darts.
Putting on a uniform doesn't make you any more intelligent or more stupid than anybody else.
Switzerland has more firearms per-capita (that means per actual person) than the U.S. -- yet there is far less actual crime per-capita there than in the U.S.
Damn, how can that be, if it's the proliferation of guns in the U.S. that is the problem?
Sure make them harder to get. Like the Mom knowing she had a mentally whacked son living with her and somehow he had access to her arsenal. So no matter how hard it was for this mom to acquire her weapons it didn't slow down the school shooter.
Out of frustration people grab at any action as a solution. Doesn't work that way. The dynamics are very complex and it will take more than just having stronger gun control laws.
We need to stop blaming guns for peoples actions. Gun control is not about guns... its about control.
The Quacked One, that's not true. Please check your stats: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
Also here, the second chart: www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/15/what-makes-americas-gun-culture-totally-unique-in-the-world-as-demonstrated-in-four-charts/
Actually, Switzerland is behind the U.S. in guns per capita, and while their gun related homicide rate is better than the U.S., it is still significantly higher than a lot of other countries. Not to mention that, in order to get those guns, government training is involved. But hey, keep pretending Switzerland's situation has any bearing on the U.S.
Quacked One, you state that Switzerland has more weapons per capita than the U.S. Several websites post the per capita gun ownership of countries around the world and all seem to agree that Swiss gun ownership is 46 per 100 citizens; U.S. gun ownership is 90 per 100 - the highest rate in the world.
In fact, our 300,000,000 population owns 230,000,000 firearms.
@ The Quacked One,
Because all criminals are actually real "pussy's" and if they know the ordinary citizen is packing heat, then they're too scared to put one in your face in the first place in fear of retaliation.
Also, the proliferation of guns are in the wrong hands in the U.S.
Switzerland actually requires you to be part of their defacto militia, military, in other words here in the US if you join the national guard or the army or marines, you get to own a gun if you follow similar rules that is.
Training is required by law, and again you are essentialy a defactor member of the national guard, so here in the US equivalent to national draft, with all men and women required to be a part of it, and then you can have any gun you want.
So if you are a gun owner, I don't think you want a Switzerland scenario, so stop using it as a example.
I have to laugh when people bring up Switzerland. Population - 7.7million, Land area -15,942 sq mi. Size of WA state - 71,342 sq mi., Population -6.8 million. So you really think you have a valid argument??
FlatIron72-7314662: Because no gun owner could stop a criminal, nor has one ever stopped a criminal.
The BS detector just went off the chart.....
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/20/oklahoma-girl-shoots-home-intruder_n_1992381.html
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/06/23/phoenix-boy-14-shoots-armed-intruder-while-watching-three-younger-siblings/
http://www.11alive.com/news/article/257840/40/Suspected-home-invader-shot-killed-by-homeowner
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Police-Home-invader-shot-killed/-/1637132/17456912/-/format/rsss_2.0/-/10lacccz/-/index.html
http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2012/12/candian-home-invader-shot-killed-2511098.htm
http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/21007645627820/armed-home-invader-shot-killed/
Those took about 10 sec to find, so you're greatly confused or an out right lier, Leftwing liberal lie that is so full of BS as not to be believed.
Good shooting, officers... looks like the bastard got what he deserved. Saved the taxpayers a bunch of money too.
As I mentioned many times before, fight "fire" with "fire".
Handguns will never go away so carry if you can. It'll be one of the only chances you get if you should be confronted by an A-hole with bad intentions.
Kudos and good work Officers.
RIP Comrades
Maybe because a) all adult males in Switzerland are required to serve in the Swiss Army, where they get trained in the use of guns and their legal responsibilities, and b) the majority of the guns in Switzerland are military weapons, which can only be legally transported under specific conditions.
Concealed Carry Permits (CCP), the holy grail of U.S. gun rights advocates, are virtually unknown there.
You ain't a fireman, I hope.
Theory: God is punishing Topeka because they allow the Westboro "Church" to operate there. Hey it's just as valid as what Huckabee said about the Sandy Hook Shooting being caused by god's vengeance on us for abortion. Only difference is I did get paid $100K to say it.
The thing that we don't seem to know for sure is, do guns make you safer? Is an armed person safer than an unarmed person?
The police want guns ,so yes armed is safer.
My brother is a retired policeman. He said when you are wearing that gun and badge, you feel ten feet tall. People who have a gun on their person will do things that they ordinarily will not do. We need less guns on the streets period. It will not stop all the violence, but every life that is saved in a good thing.
Is the armed person safer? Clearly these policemen were not.
If you bother to think about for a second, you'd realize that ability to own and carry a gun makes the person without a gun safer.
It seems to me that trying to fight guns with guns is like fighting fire with fire. I have heard that the Police in London England don't carry guns. I've also heard that if you are caught carrying a gun in Moscow Russia you will be thrown in jail for breaking the laws there. Personally, I hate guns. I have never liked guns. Guns scare the "ba-geebies" out of me! I'm sure John Lennon felt this same way, especially after being shot and killed by a gun. Those who believe in the saying... "guns don't kill, people do" miss the point. More guns means more killings. Less guns, less killings. Why is this point so hard for some people to comprehend?
That makes no sense whatsoever.
Seems like one of the big differences between police and so many civilians is that the police have lots of on-going training in the use of their firearms.
I have no training with a gun and I do believe that I could buy a hand gun.
@ Davey
Not in Kalifornia. You have to pass a written test first with a bunch of BS loaded questions.
I voted for Ralph Nader in 2008
There are over 300 million firearms in the US and less than 10,000 homicides by firearms each year. By your logic everyone in this country would be dead because the number of firearms is roughly the same as the current US population. And if you actually check crime statistics you'll see that crime has been on a downward trend for the last ten years. Part of the problem is so many people have access to the internet and the media sensationalizes all acts of violence.
Yes
Try telling that to every murder, rape, burglary, robbery, assault victim in Chicago, where only the police and the criminals are allowed to carry a gun. Oh, wait, that's right...criminals are not allowed to even have a gun, much less carry one -- yet they just don't give a flying fig about silly little things such as laws.
Thats what self defense and nonlethal weapons are for. If you live in an area where you can not have a gun, you have effective choices. Ones that the criminals will never forget if the come up against someone so equipped.
In the end, your better off learning how to defend yourself first with your hands before you get a gun. I mean, some people make it sound like your gun can not be taken from you and used to kill you.. Oh, wait! That is what happened to the school shooters mom.. She owned guns. They where taken... Used to kill HER.... Then turned on innocent children...
Yep, guns are great and they fix all violence problems.. Legal guns never kill people... Oh wait... Yea they do.
Nightwalker, your grasp of facts and logic is somewhat limited. Last year over 31,000 people in the US died from gunshot wounds. In your response to I Voted for Ralph Nader, you state: 'By your logic everyone in this country would be dead because the number of firearms is roughly the same as the current US population.'
Obviously, logic was not part of your education. Nothing IVRN said leads to your claim. What you seem to be missing is that more guns sold in an NRA marketing frenzy equals more gun deaths, not that everyone will go down. What is clear is that an unacceptable number of innocent people will.
With your level of higher thinking skills, I certainly hope you are not one of the paranoid NRA members rushing out to buy more assault weapons and ammo.
Answer me this, if guns were made illigel to own and according to government reports, everyone in the U.S had turned in their guns, ask the cops if they are OK with not carrying guns anymore, just mace and batons, see what their answer would be. They would say "hell no", why? because they know that criminals will always be able to find guns. If I had been one of those teachers or office personel I would much rather have died in a shootout with this guy than cower in a corner and wait my turn to die.
Ok...Lets say we ban guns....Guess what?? Aholes aren't going to stop killing,robbing or raping...Now they'll use knives...So then we'll have CC laws for knives..And then people will get killed and asshats will call for the banning of knives...Then clubs...And then we'll just chop off everyone's hands so they can't hurt anyone with anything....
The only reason I can see for them saying this is because they are american. I've come to this conclusion because the police in the UK are regularly polled on whether they want to be armed and they have (so far) consistently said "no".
I think that the 'gun discussion' is a little more nuanced. I don't think a ban is realistic and I don't think people are going to have to surrender their weapons.
Can you think of any common sense adjustments to gun policy the US? Maybe something that would reduce the chance of a massacre happening?
Mental screenings for anyone wanting to own a gun, then disallow accordingly, it might take some time to go through but better than letting a crazy person or somebody simply not competent emotionally to own a gun.
Like me and my family shouldn't own a gun, but its not like there is anything that would stop us from owning a gun, and we get into knife fights, dread to think what guns would do in that equation.
hear that gun loving freaks...............these are the guys that legally carry the guns that were taken out.........that didn't stop anything now did it.
GOD bless them and their families.........as well as the upcoming gun deaths that settles this......
Yup. Just because you legally carry a gun, doesn't mean that you're not stupid.
Gun a tool. It can't kill or protect anybody by itself.
Think before you post... and learn English grammar for a change.
The 1st step is the media making a continous report on who did what over and over and over. The copy cat wants his15 minutes of fame. Yes there should be new releases, but only after the facts are known, Do we really need to know every detail? I think NOT. Do NOT give the prep all the face time and put the story on page 8, not the headlines. Second we have to do something about the mentaly unstable. Yes, many of them need to be confined or at least under strict supervision. Also the Bull S---- about their privacy being protected need to change. Doctors or whoever need to be able to contact Law Enforcement when they are aware that someone is a danger to the public. Then you can start worring about "gun control".
Hear what? Non gun loving freak.
Alex5150;
And if the killer had used a knife, come from behind and slit their throats, what would you be saying?
Where was your God when these good men were shot?
Why doesn't it work that way, hmmm?
@pete - did you blame yourself when your son started smoking?
The reality is that people have a choice when it comes to their actions. If people did not have such a choice they would be quite like mechanical toys.
Max - very true, and if there is freedom of choice, is this part of His plan?
I just tire of people bringing God in as an afterthought. Pray, bless, on and on, as if that's going to make a true measurable difference in the world other than to make the one praying feel better. Not that that is a bad thing, it's just not going to prevent things like this from happening again.
Unless it does.
We can't prove it either way.
You're right MJ!!! Those lousy guns jumped out of the car, all on their own, and shot the two officers! When will you understand that it is BAD PEOPLE that we need to get rid of.
of course we'll get rid of them via more guns ....right.......
Get rid of bad people?
kill the bad people ? we have a millions ! were you wanted star wih the politicians ?
How about the bankers and lawyers, as well as the politicians.
And the Jews...we know they're bad, right? They've been bad before. Turn in all enemies of the Fatherland to the proper authorities...we'll keep your involvement secret.
How about we get rid of all these judges that let the criminal back on the block. The same ones that refuse to allow the death penalty to be enacted even after all avenues of appeal have been exhausted.
What the F__K is WRONG with people ??????????????????
The pampered little bastards never had any descipline.
When you grow up around violent peoples you end up violent yourself.
If you can't discipline your children without beating them up you should not be a parent as obviously you don't have any parenting skills.
Fred...nail on the head. We shall reap what we sow.
Beating NO but smack on the bottom never hurt anyone except maybe their pride. Spare the rod and spoil the child.
MeetURMaker66 - You are foolish! Take the guns away from the BAD PEOPLE and they wont be so BAD! People THINK they are badder with a gun. The fact is if the idiot who shot these two police officers did not have a gun, he most likely would not have killed them. Take the guns and you take the cowards backbone!
Guns will never be taken out of the hands of criminals.Harsher laws with stiffer penalty's may stop some of these crimes.
He is a criminal, he is not going to give you his gun. How do you purpose to take it. Taking the law abidings citizens gun won't get his. You are foolish if you truly believe this, and lack a sense of reality.
Attrition. Every criminal in posession of illegal firearms have them confiscated when arrested. Without a fresh supply of new guns hitting the streets, the numbers will go down.
How will the criminals get guns if there aren't law-abiding gun owners for the criminals to steal them from?
Attrition? Dream on! There will always be guns in the hands of gangs and criminals. Black Market and they will manufacture themselves. Guns are not that difficult to make. "Zip" guns were made and used by street gangs in the 50's-60's. Zip guns were even made in the prisons. There will always be guns of some sort and plenty of them. Gangs will always have their guns and there will be an underworld element that can manufacture and provide them.
A zip gun. Seriously? You really feel threatened by a zip gun? I'd hate to be such a paronoid little twerp as you are.
Not berating the cops, but you would think they would have had their weapons drawn and been overly cautious in approaching this car. There is more to this story than is being told. My sympathys to their familys.
Jersey Michael; there will always be a fresh supply of weapons just as there is always a fresh supply for illegel drugs, making it against the law to own will only make them more expensive.
Jerry,
I live in NJ and in NJ we're not allowed to have dark tinted windows just for this reason. Too many cops were being killed approaching very dark windowed vehicles.
The perp would be pointing a gun at the cop on the the other side without the cop knowing. Then roll the window down and.... you get the picture.
This may be the case here. Just sayin'.....it's quite possible since the guy was able to shoot two cops in the head without them getting a shot off. It also could've been one cop on each side of the car and two guys within, doing the same thing simultaneously.
This was such a senseless crime.My condolences to these officers family members.
Thank you cleaning lady for your respect to these officers and their extended families. I also send my condolences to these people and their friends. R.i.P.
I also hope when they get the perps they choose to go sucide by cops.
Police write reports after the fact. This is a evil world you can hope nothing happens to you or you can be prepared, your decision. But you are not allowed to choose for me that's my choices.
I am starting to think the NRA is really a terrorist organization which brilliantly planned to destroy America from within by flooding it with guns and enraging those ill equipped to think with nonsense about the applicability of the 2cd amendment. Come to think of it, Carl Rove is well-equipped to devise this plan so catastrophic to the American way of life.
No, the NRA is a bunch of rich gun manfacturing CEOs and the pawns that have bought into their propoganda. They don't care how many Americans die as long as they get their multimillion dollar bonus at the end of the year.
Jersey Michael--same thing!
Kamaaina, sorry, but your guys own this one. The only people sick enough to devise a plan like this are the gun control nuts, under control of Obama and the UN.
Ban handguns.
I don't understand why we can't deal with the gun lobby the same way we dealth with the tobacco lobby. (1) Tax the crap out of guns and ammo... "the right to bear arms" should cost an arm & a leg. (2) Criminal background checks on every employee of every general retail store that also sells guns (Walmart, Kmart, Academy, Sports Authority, etc.) Fine a single convicted felon working at even a single store... pull the entire chains license to sell guns. It's the law. "the right to bear arms" doesn't say "easy and cheap to get arms." (3) Do a safety recall of all ammunition. A bullet is at least as dangerous as a jar of peanut butter. Conduct rigid safety inspections on ammo and take you're time doing it. When done, return the ammo along with a stiff 'safety fee' per each round. The "right to bear arms" doesn't say "the right to bear bullets." The way you "control" something in this country is to make it more expensive. Stop trying to appeal to the NRA and the politicians they control through their hearts or heads. They haven't the former and the latter is empty. Aim for the wallet.
BS- and require all permit applicants to pay for psych evals for everyone in their home.
The Gun Business star when the europeans come in to America, they sell the guns to them to Kill the Native Americans, they sell to de native Americans to kill the white invaders, later they sell to the rebelds europeans to kill the british, and on, and on, and keep their profits protect for the early Constitution
BS, you forgot a step. 4) All victims of gun violence or their families should file a class action lawsuit against the gun manufacturers.
And here's Takenaka again with his tired shtick.
Because the first thing a criminal does is consider the law.
Talk about naive.
Pete, you guys are boring. All we hear from the gun lovers is
You need to ask the NRA for some more propoganda. The same old BS is getting boring.
My deepest sympathies to families of the officers, their friends and co-workers. No words can express condolences to the Sandy Hook families, either, who just before Christmas have lost those beautiful children and the adults who cared for them.
I wish to be prepared, there will always be a chance of a threat, and chances are those threats dont come when cops are standing close by. There are many cops that believe people should protect themselves. My concealed weapon doesnt come out to settle an argument, doesnt come out because im upset that im getting the short end of the stick, nor does it come out because I forgot my wallet and im at the checkout. Its there because someday I might just need it to save myself or others from a life threatening situation.
That is very likely what Lanza's mother thought. Your comment about your wallet reminds me of the news story several months ago about the patron at the checkout at Walmart who reached into his pocket for his wallet and accidentally shot himself in the butt. He then ran out of the store.
I believe your intentions are noble, but those officers were well trained, well prepared and well armed. The Ramboo fantasy is becoming too costly to America. Unless you sleep with your gun and shower with it at your gym, for example, it is more likely you or someone like you will have your weapon stolen an used in a crime than fulfilling your rescue fantasy.
Really, usually the cops add to the threat because of their stupidity and sloppiness.
Not true if she had them in a safe this wouldn't have happened if you own guns you need to be a responsible gun owner...and I'm not talking about a Bimart safe a real safe one that coast 1200/2000$ and it is bolted to the floor..This is why she is dead and all of the children and the 6 very brave women gave their lives trying to save the children!!!!!!!!
It is truly sad that education professionals and children have to loose their life do to the violence in schools. We need to NOW make a difference and our Senate and Congress needs to pass laws NOW!! Not after they had a vacation and then slow stepping around it like they have for fare to many years and so many have lost their lives because they can not do their JOB; but they sure have no problems collecting their benefits and pay while the rest of us have to live with their incompetence! I have owned many firearms and we as respected gun owners need to send a message to the NRA Now sad to say I am a long time member of this group and sad to say they didn’t even have the F***** Balls to have respect for the innocent children and or respect for their families. We need to send a message to them; get your head out of you’re A** and start working with the people that pay your benefits and pay your check and do the right thing NOW. We have had enough of the good old boy’s club now it’s time to be real men and real humans. Everyone needs to start calling your congressman or woman and tell them if they want to keep their set warm next term they better start doing what we the people expect them to do and pay them to do!
Hope, your rambling is all over the place and makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Go to bed and get some sleep. Really, I read that twice and it still makes no sense and no real point was made.
You will never keep guns from the criminal element, they will always be able to aquire what they want, hell eric holder and comrade obama will even help.
Yes Archy,
You are correct. That is the problem. The guns flying off the shelves to privarte owners are the ones being stolen and used to commit crimes or "borrowed" from family members. You are getting close to putting 2 + 2 together.
Maybe we need to start making ALL Firearm Homicides front page national news. If we did then maybe something would be done about the easy availability of guns.
We would have stories in the national news about 30 people killed by guns EVERY DAY in the US.
Imagine stories everyday as a national news event detailing the 11,000 deaths by firearms each year in the US.
It doesn't look like the NRA's propaganda about more people having guns means we are safer really has any basis in reality. It's just some fevered fantasy created by the scared and timid.
Hell if guns can keep us safer then why not make it legal to own hand grenades. Then we can be even more safe. How about rocket launchers as they can make us even more safe than guns as we can take out more than one person who might try to hurt us.
How about cars? Cars kill more people every day, thousands a year. What about medication errors from Doctors and Nurses(40 plus thousand a year). The logic doesn't hold up. As far as rocket launchers and grenades? That will depend on how represive of a government I live under.
Let's put the same restrictions on guns that we do on cars. You would need to pass gun safety test. You would need to have your guns inspected and pay insurance on it once a year. At the state inspection they could do a ballistics test. No more unsolved gun murders.
Hand grenades kill in wide areas, a hand gun or rifle has a more direct target. There may be times you'd want to deploy a hand grenade but it is so rare it wouldn't justify letting everybody have one. Plus they don't have a safety device making them too dangerous to keep in the house.
How about we make the 400,000+ smoking-related deaths front page news?
How about poisoning? Kids are 6x more likely to die from that.
Pick your battles rationally, not emotionally. Otherwise, stay in bed all day and cower. It's a scary world!
Again the "Everyone should have a gun" crowd just don't get it and bring up crap that doesn't even mean anything in relation.
Willian, car are ment only for DRIVING while guns are meant ONLY FOR KILLING. You can make that silly claim that they are meant for target practice or hunting. The ONLY reason for handguns and assault STYLE rifles is for KILLING. Handguns are designed to KILL PEOPLE as they are virtually useless for hunting. And the same is basically true for rifles except they can be used for hunting. Most hunters don't even eat what they kill. They just kill animals because they enjoy the rush of taking a life that can't fight back.
Jersey, that would be PERFECT but the NRA and gun rights nuts would be up in arms, literally, if they actually had to do something LOGICAL AND RESPONSIBLE with their weapons like that. They would be screaming 2nd AMENDMENT like rabid dogs if you tried to force gun owners to treat their guns the same way they have to treat their vehicles. BTW, I own a handgun and rifle and would be more than willing to do what you meantions but I am the RARITY when it comes to sane gun owners.
Bullet, yes grenades do kill wide areas and so do SEMI-AUTOMATIC HANDGUNS AND RIFLES. You can spray a wide area as fast as you can pull a trigger. Some weapons have easy pull triggers or can be modified for a light touch so they can be fired at a high rate. If you don't know it many semi-automatic assault style rifles can fire around 20-30 rounds in under a minute. In a crowd there could be up to 30 casualties in a minute. What about the person with two semi-automatic handguns with extended clips. Just as bad as a grenade but you on the NRA side think that is just fine.
Pete, that is total nonsense and someone would only bring up something like that when they don't have any way to logically refute what I mentioned. It's like trying to compare apple to oranges. In other words a stupid and illogical comparison.
You must remember WHY there is a 2nd Amendment. The right of citizens to bear arms is not for sport or hunting. It states, "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." That means that the citizens of this nation have the right to bear arms to offset any threat of tyranny from the government. You have a handgun for self-protection, you have a shotgun for home protection, and you have an AR-15 for when the government says you can't have weapons any more. This government must recognize that it is a government for the people, BY the people and that the government should be afraid of its citizens, not the citizens afraid of the government...
The notion of owning a weapon for hunting or sport is inconsequential when it comes to the 2nd Amendment. Any weapon that a civilian uses today is a semi-automatic weapon. That includes revolvers. That means you have to pull the trigger each time you want to expend one round from the weapon. Automatic weapons are cost prohibitive and are tracked by the BATF. I am not saying it is impossible to get, but an average AR-15 costs only $1000 where as an MP-5 submachine gun I saw this past Saturday was going for $18,000. At the this past weekend's gun show I bought a Smith & Wesson .40cal Military & Police model handgun and I purchased a Sig Sauer SIG516 Patrol AR-15 semi-automatic rifle. At this gun show, I had to fill out two forms that asked me a series of questions about whether or not I had any arrests, was I medically discharged from the military, have I ever been treated for a mental illness, etc. If I answered these forms untruthfully, the background check would have came back unfavorable and I would have had to answer a lot of questions from the State Police officer that was standing by the door. Had I answered truthfully with a yes response that too is bad because the form specifically states that too is against the law to try to attempt to purchase the weapons knowing I had an unfavorable background.
Ignorance of the law is not an excuse. As a responsible, law-abiding citizen, I am fully aware of the ramifications for not following the law and as a responsible gun owner, I am fully aware that gun safety and preventative, risk mitigation strategies rests soley on me. I have a gun vault and my house is alarmed. For good measure, I even removed the firing pins from my ARs in case a determined individual really wants to grab my weapons. Where did I get all this from? The NRA.
I wonder what the criminals and illegal gun owners have for a set-up in their homes? I wonder what they think when they see signs at Bufallo Wild Wings and the schools that say, "This is a gun-free zone"??? As a law-abiding citizen I cannot bring my weapon into these establishments, but I wonder if the criminals follow the same suit?
PS: Hand grenades and other military-type weapons are prohibited by the National Firearms Act of 1935. You have to get a class 3 license to even play with those things and that is NOT easy to come by.
PPS: Cars ARE meant only for driving, but how many times have they been used as a lethal weapon? Check the stats; there is a reason why cops fire on cars, because they felt their life was in danger when the driver tried to ram them with their car. Also, other people have used it to plow into pedestrians; that is why there is a hit and run statute.
Lastly, I am not advocating that EVERYONE should have a gun. I am saying that EVERYONE should have the right to choose which side they are on. Just because you choose NOT to own a weapon should NOT preclude my right to own a weapon. I chose. I refuse to be a victim. It is my inalienable right to own weapons and I don't need have my weapon inspected. If it misfires, I take it to my gunsmith and he knows what to do. I don't need insurance because if I intend to draw my weapon on another human being it because he meant to cause me bodily injury to include death and I have the legal right to defend myself up to and including the use of lethal force against my assailant. There is no need for insurance because the assailant is dead and he cannot sue me. If it was a legal hit, then I will be released on my own cognizance. If it was an illegal hit, I will know because as a law-abiding citizen I stayed at the scene of the incident to report to the authorities and demand to speak to my attorney. THAT'S CALLED DUE-PROCESS OF THE LAW.
CORRECTION: A government of the people, by the people.
:-)
Bear in mind that the NRA-types LOVE destruction, and they like and approve of this. Two police officers shot dead, fine, satisfactory.
The unspeakable fact of 20 dead children provoked no comment from the NRA, not even sympathy. Why? They think it is satisfying and justified.
Oh, and those of you who support the NRA? Look in your mirrors. You are accomplices.
Time for us to go after them.
Yoyu need to up your medication, you are starting to sound like the nut cases before they snap.
You are absolutely crazy, united a$$ welder shop stupid
The National Rifle Association does more to protect, defend, promote safety, encourage responsibility in gun ownership, promote the general welfare and secure freedom of choice in this Great Nation, than do many, many other Organizations.
"How ridiculous"
What a preposterous statement SS. Why? ? would responsible persons, advocate any death let alone feel any satisfaction for police officers being murdered?
Surly, you must believe that you are clairvoyant, perhaps you should turn that gift into a bit of introspection of yourself.
This look at You would/could, possibly illuminate just how Unjustified your stream of bovine excremental total jerk comments, really are hyperbolic vitriol.
Just who is "us" UAW ?
Are you talking to your "Buddies" Who tore down the tent in front of the capitol in Lansing Michigan endangering innocent people, Destroying a business mans livelihood and property all the while slinging racial epithets at him. Beating up a journalist who was merely asking questions of union attendees "Why they are demonstrating?".
Where did your Upbringing go wrong with, You and YOUR accomplices UAW?
I can only suspect that you may be a steward in a paint shop, and have been breathing the fumes for so long it has had a detrimental affect on your cognitive brain function. Which has lead you to these insane rantings. Apparently, this is a growing phenomenon among United Auto Workers Leadership?
One Question? UAWSS. Just how many of your Union's Members, Are also members of ...................................................The National Rifle Association ???.................................................
Get Used Too It... 4ward
UAW Shop Steward
Please take your demented views of the NRA and those of us who belong to that organization and shove it so far up your a$$, you'll be able to pick them out of your nose when you go brain digging up there.
You're now permitted to crawl back into the cesspool your slithered out of.
UAW you don't have a clue. It is apparent you know absolutely nothing about the NRA.
You can help us all out with how to accomplish shoving stuff places by using your gun as an example piece. As soon as we learn your methodology for "packing" your gun in certain places, we might be better equipped to know how to shove our thoughts of the NRA where you suggest.
Time to BAN Guns NOW. If you want absolute freedom then move to Somalia.
Stupid comment of the day! Congrats!
Banning guns does lead to absolute freedom!
Just ask Pol Pot. And Adolph Hitler. And...
It's called history. Look into it.
Ban guns? Never going to happen.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!
Drugs and aliens are illegal. hows that working out...
@Johnnyjustice --- The same way a "war on guns" will. The Feds do very little right other than conducting parades with less than one person marching.
Why is this front page news?
If you were killed and it made front page news, wouldn't it be sad if someone posted "Why is this news?"
Just because it was only two people, doesn't make it any less important. How many people have to die before YOU think it should make the front page? 5? 20? 30?
The gun proponents claim they fear their government, they say they need guns to prevent tyranny. I say if you fear your government so much that you think you need guns to protect yourself from it THEN MOVE somewhere else and take your guns with you.
You are the tyrants. Tyranny of the people by the people is still tyranny!
How about this for a slogan; instead of I love my country but fear my government, it should be; I love my country but fear my neighbor. gun violence kills 9 to 10 thousand people each year in the United States. The gun rights advocates care more about their rights than the lives of the innocent. I am sick of the refrain, "guns don't kill people, people kill people".
This should be rephrased, it should be "guns don't kill people, COWARDS with guns kill people"!
Regulate, license, test, train, BEFORE they get to buy a tool that makes it so easy to take a life!
Attention, responsible gun owners, YOU need to join with the rest of us who are outraged over this crap! YOU need to get involved or YOU risk losing the right you so vehemently defend!
Guns for hunting or home protection are fine, guns for target practice are fine but your right to own them shouldn't place the rest of society at risk of harm. If your right to bear arms means I have to live my life in fear of some foolish coward, then I say HELL NO, you don't get to have them any more!
Oh, I know what the next words will be, "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns". Such a catchy phrase, backed by so many stories of what has happened in places where guns are not so easily had, but the reality is that NO other modern, western country has a population so heavily armed and the number of people killed here is second only to countries where law enforcement is nearly non-existent, in other words where tyranny rules.
Tyranny of the people by the people is what we live with today, the armed against the unarmed. If you don't already own a gun then you must go buy one, get a concealed weapons permit to carry it and then practice, practice, practice so you can be safe. AMERICA THE BEAUTIFUL??? The land of opportunity...does opportunity refer to the opportunity to kill people? Are we nothing more than moving targets for so many mindless NRA shills?
Who profits from gun and ammuntion sales? Ask yourselves, who are you enriching? Could they have a motive for spreading fear, discontent, hatred, for promoting war? WAKE UP!
Very well expressed, sighber. It is time to take America back.
I agree 110% this needs to end and assault weapons only have one place in the hands of a soldier and in a war not in the hands of any civilian, last time I went hunting it only took 1 round to get the job done and if you need more than 3 rounds in a rifle to hunt you should start thinking about selling your assault rifle and hunt at your local grocery store! YES I HAVE HAD IT I am a competitive marksman and yes I have been doing it for many years but this S*** Needs to end now and yes we need to work with the people!!!!! Make the age to own one in the thirty’s and make laws that if you get caught with a hand gun or an assault rifle and or a high capacity magazine you go to jail for 10 years and make it mandatory!!! Sorry but I am F***in pissed of all you want to be and think you are responsible gun owners.. You sure would be singing a different tune if this was your child that you had to put in the ground because of the poor choices that were made by a NOT RESPONSIBLE GUN OWNER…
Not true if she had them in a safe this wouldn't have happened if you own guns you need to be a responsible gun owner...and I'm not talking about a Bimart safe a real safe one that coast 1200/2000$ and it is bolted to the floor..This is why she is dead and all of the children and the 6 very brave women
It is truly sad that education professionals and children have to loose their life do to the violence in schools. We need to NOW make a difference and our Senate and Congress needs to pass laws NOW!! Not after they had a vacation and then slow stepping around it like they have for fare to many years and so many have lost their lives because they can not do their JOB; but they sure have no problems collecting their benefits and pay while the rest of us have to live with their incompetence! I have owned many firearms and we as respected gun owners need to send a message to the NRA Now sad to say I am a long time member of this group and sad to say they didn’t even have the F***** Balls to have respect for the innocent children and or respect for their families. We need to send a message to them; get your head out of you’re A** and start working with the people that pay your benefits and pay your check and do the right thing NOW. We have had enough of the good old boy’s club now it’s time to be real men and real humans. Everyone needs to start calling your congressman or woman and tell them if they want to keep their set warm next term they better start doing what we the people expect them to do and pay them to do!
I wish I could give these families their children back and the mothers and daughters and sons but I can’t but like this man wrote we as responsible gun owners need to draw the line now and start doing some thing about it because if we do nothing we will loose the right to even own a bbgun and I for one love my sport way to much to let NONE COMPLYING RESPONSIBLE GUN OWNERS RUINIT FOR THE 99.99% OF US THAT CARE ABOUT OUR CHILDERN AND MOTHERS SONS AND FARTHERS…STOP AND THINK WITH YOUR BRAIN INSTEAD OF DOING NOTHING LIKE WE HAVE BE DOING FOR THE PAST 20+ YEARS. I PRAY TO GOD THAT YOUR LOVED ONE DOESN’T HAVE TO BE THE ONE THAT FINNALY MAKE THE LAWS CHANGE!
Sorry but I am very hurt and it wasn't any one that I loved, I just have a hart!
Because historically, governments have never oppressed their people, and have never slaughtered their own after banning or strictly controlling firearms.
You have no knowledge of history, or of real life out in the rest of the world, and it shows.
Painfully.
Pete,
As I point out, you and yours have become what you profess to fear. Our government isn't killing 9 to 10 thousand citizens a year it is the armed faction of our society that is doing so. Tyranny of the people by the people is still tyranny. If you read my post then you know I don't advocate taking away people's weapons but I do understand that cowards with guns are ruining this country and taking far too many innocent lives.
Your attack is personal so let return the favor, YOU apparently care more about your gun(s) than you do about the safety of the unarmed population at large. In the aftermath of the deed of a psychotic coward with easy access to guns I am not about to relax my position and I suspect the citizenry are just about at the end of their patience.
I don't know my history? BS! What number constitutes slaughter? is it 1,000 or 10,000? How many people does our government kill each year? I say again, if you are so afraid of your government then go find somewhere else to live.
The killing of 100,000 people over the course of the last ten years by armed citizens in this country is not defensible by rational minds. Go ahead and try but just the act indicates that your guns are more important to you than the lives lost through the actions of gun owners, not the responsible ones but the foolish, careless, cowardly, irresponsible, unstable gun owners. It is the actions of the latter group that ARE LIKELY to result in YOU having YOUR right to bear arms challenged. If you hunt, plink, or just want a gun for home defense that's fine with me, but when your right to gun ownership comes before the lives of innocent children, public servants, etcetera, it IS time to discuss how to make this situation better for everyone.
You speak of oppression, what do you think happens when armed people show up at political rallies? Do you not understand that the armed individuals by their very presence oppress the unarmed people at the gathering? Oppression, and slaughter happen here all right, at the hands of gun owners NOT THE GOVERNMENT!
sighber -
Hey, I read your original post again and then mine and I think I typed that initial response to the wrong comment - wasn't meant for you! I apologize for the mixup. And you do have some great points.
Pete,
Apology accepted, I know how big an issue gun ownership is, I am just so tired of the carnage. I hope we can find a reasonable path to a resolution that actually makes a difference.
Clearly you have no clue what the 2nd Amendment is all about...I feel so sorry for you...I shall weep for you.
<:-\
Johnny, So true. They banned booze and people still got it so they made it legal again. They banned pot and people still got it and now legal in 2 states and growing. Bans just help the criminals. But i do believe in gun control like on magazine capacity and assault weapons.
ban everything ...including banning
Does that include takenaka?
Wow, two well armed police officers not able to stop someone with a gun from shooting and Killing.....
Yet many will say they need guns to save their lives from armed criminals..
What a false sense of security a warm gun brings...
I am sorry that these civil servants paid the ultimate price.
My most sincere condolences to the families, friends and co-workers of the slain police officers. On the same day, at about the same time, as the elementary school shootings in Newtown, one female police officer was shot and killed and one male officer is recovering from a gunshot wound in Memphis Tennessee. Both were 32 years old and the female officer was a single mother with four daughters, 14, 13, 12 and 2 years old.They were both shot by a twenty year old male. We must work together to stop these senseless killings, and it must be a combination of reasonable gun control and a solution the the lack of options for caring for the mentally ill!
The main problem I have with all the screaming about gun control are the uninformed arguments being driven by pure speculation and emotion with a blatant disregard for facts. If there is a reasonable discussion to be had, fine, but lets make it reasonable. As hard as it may be, let's try and keep the "guns are for insecure coyboys with tiny schlongs" comments to a minimum if we can. Uninformed need not comment, such as those discussing 'automatic' weapons which have never been an issue - that small word tends to lose you all credibility. The less we roll around on the floor banging our fists into the ground, the better. That only worked when your brother took the Tonka Truck away when you were 8.
Homicides are down to the lowest levels they have been since the late 60s. That is a good sign of progression for safety, of which many are arguing we have none. Even though it has been referenced many times (by false data, I might add), firearms are not exponentially more likely to make you the victim of a gruseome death if you have one in your house. In fact, a swimming pool is around 100 times more likely to kill a member of your family if you possess both a gun and a pool (Steven Levitt of economic fame did that particular study). Seems pools should be far scarier than the evil black rifles that are the nightmares of so many. Firearm deaths are far below what they were in the 90s. And the Brady Bill, which is the direction current legislation is going, already didn't work once. Wasn't there a smart man that once said something along the lines of insanity being trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results? Bans on steel coated in black polymer and magazine size restriction are likely to do no more than slightly inconvenience recreational target shooters. That is the proverbial definition of band-aid on a chainsaw wound.
The main issue, as I see it with this new gun control push seems to be a bit hypocritical to general government policy. Submitting to the crazy whims of domestic terrorists. Changing the foundation of our Constitution - our concrete rights, because of terrorist activity. The things that made this country great, stripped because of the actions of the insane and evil. That is the only action we can take where even in death the crazies win. Punishing the law abiding overwhelming majority at an unknown expense. Whether or not you see a need for guns, shooting, or collections is not the issue - the issue is what you do possess, what you would be willing to fight for potentially being stripped away. That being an infinite number of things. Opening these new regulations, already proven to be ineffective in the past, only opens a Pandora's box of possibilities for further rights being stripped.
There is an agenda here being driven by speculation, emotion, and fear after the most terrible shooting we can remember. And make no mistake, everyone is together in being devastated by this tragedy. However, the one thing we have always known, what has helped us to be great is to not be stripped, destroyed, then molded again by fear and terror. Time to put the emotions aside and think rationally.
Remove the regulation exceptions for gun show and private sales that allow guns. Require every purchase of a gun to be traceable and demand a background check and training certificate of both purchaser AND seller
If we can't drive a car in public without a license then we certainly should not be allowed to purchase, sell or own a gun without one.
yes, just the other day, my neighbor's swimming pool massacred 26 people, then a few days later, blew away two cops in Kansas. A few weeks before that, it terrorized a mall in Portland and had a vacation at a movie theatre in Colorado and a temple. The most fun the pool had was as a youngster in Columbine, what a hoot!
A swimming pool's primary function is not to drown people - what is primary usage of a handgun?
Well if the police officers had guns, this wouldn't have happened...