Jo: that will be a horrible burden to bear for the rest of her life. I am still sick to my stomach as more information comes out about the shooter and this story. My all those little/grown up souls rest in peace.

butters, rick's view is factual, arguably unstable man shoots many innocent kids. The pastors view is his opinion on something he couldnt know.

Actually, it always felt to me that it would be offensive to the families of those who didn't get saved to say that the survivors were saved by divine intervention. Although I certainly can't imagine what is going through their minds right now, I think I would be more offended by the pastor's words than by Rick's. That's probably the last thing the pastor intended, but I think it's safer to stay away from praising God in a situation like this.

If you were a parent who lost a child in that classroom on Friday, how would you feel if you heard a pastor say that 'divine intervention' interceded on that little girls behalf? It would rip your heart out all over again because you couldn't help but wonder where the 'divine intervention' was for your child. I've heard remarks like that all of my life. They are intended to bolster the faith of the congregation but they can't help but be devastating to the families of those who didn't survive.

There is a special place for you that many know as Dante's 9th ward.

Sure! IF THAT IS TRUE: You will be there as well, because I can tell just by reading your post that you support the NRA and the "Freedom of using weapons"

PFFT!

Mental Illness is at the root of this issue, and like Physicist-retired, I don't believe we'll be able to keep these type of semi-auto, large ammo clip weapons of of their hands unless we (1) ban these type weapons (2) close the loop hole of gun show sales without a background check and, most importantly (3) get help for these mentally ill people.

When my DIL was doing Pediatric ER rotations during her residency, she said the families would bring these kids (and young adults) in the ER as a last resort, hoping to get them committed to a Psych ward for help. There are not enough beds or if they are 18 and over they can just walk out after a day or 2 of "being nice". When are we going to get serious about Mental Health care in this country?

Intervention? These people never consider the logical fallacies of assuming God.

T Diddy, do not even go there. People DO BELIEVE IN DIFFERENT THINGS. Especially when it comes to religion! I do not believe god did anything to help or to prevent in this tragedy!!!!!! And I don't think any preacher should say he did!

The crusading atheists have to come out and spew there hate over what family and friends say over what happened to their child.

And the cruisading bible thumpers try to shove their "beliefs" into something that has absolutely NOTHING to do with a "Guardian Angel"

Those children were murdered, and one escaped because she was down in the floor, and the bullets did not hit her. That is what we should do: Start drills in schools about getting down in the floor as soon as you hear the bullets. The "Guardian Angel" theory is just MORE PAINFUL FOR THOSE THAT BELIEVE THEIR CHILD WAS NOT WORTHY!!!!!

The main point here is we want to comment on the story's sadness etc...

If you can't take it back, don't shove it in the first place~!

Girlfriend...(Santa, make sure she's pretty)

Maybe God has a plan for that little girl. Who among us knows His plans? What He gave us was free-will. some of us use it for sensible things...others for pure evil. Free-will also gives us a chance to decide if we believe in Christ as our Savior or if we choose to reject Him. It saddens me to hear people trashing God or blaming him for someone choosing the evil path. No matter how we each believe...or choose not to...we each will stand before Him at some point and account for our choices. My prayers are for those kids to be with God. I pray for those left behind. And I pray God does not hesitate for a single second to take that little girl who was spared and fill her with the Holy Spirit as her life continues. Prayers to help her find a strength in the presence of that Spirit. And I pray for all the haters who will jump on this post to speak you hate if it helps you feel better. I don't need your approval. I only ask for healing. We had enough hate last week...

LH, I don't care what you believe anymore than care for my beliefs. My mother told me that if you don't have anything good to say, you should keep your mouth shut. Due to current events, I think that this happens to be one of those moments. How cruel is it to kick people when they are down from losing 20 frickin kids?

People who know God understand that afterlife is not a horrendous thing. I am sure that the parents that have lost their children are not "mad" that another child made it out. God is good, and He is with each one of those little kids, and their families right now.

You ask "Where was God?"

Well, where was your "nothing"?

If you TRUELY don't believe that there is a God, then you dont believe that there is a transceanding purpose to this life, and you shouldn't be grieving for the little kids and adults at all. To you they were nothing but accidental matter anyway. Tell me who determines right and wrong then? Do we (a flawed and selfish human race) set those perameters? Who has the ultimate say? There are way to many dead ends to that logic. You probably say "If you have walked in my shoes", "or "if you have lived my life"--well have you lived mine?

What a poor miserable existence you must have! No purpose at all. Just breathe, eat, and die? If you truely didn't believe that there is a God, you also wouldn't debate and slam people who know that there is one. Why can't you be honest with yourself.

When people talk about aliens coming to take us away, I dont critisize. I don't care what they believe. If people wanted to believe in Santa to help the grieving process, then let them do it! Many of us will never face this kind of pain. Why are people so hostal to us who DO find comfort God. The parents, friends and family have a long road ahead of them. I have cried and prayed all weekend for every family and friend thats life was changed because of this tragedy.

If someone wants to use the term 'divine intervention' to explain the fortune of one child, then let them do it. Who cares about your worthless opinion about religion? People are looking for hope during a terrible event. Whatever outlet they decide to use to cope with this situation, let them do so and leave it be. YOu and I have no involvement and no idea of what they are going thru.

What is divine intervention?

Poor little girl, I can't even begin to imagine how horrible her experience must have been. I hope the same strengths that helped her survive physically will help her heal from this unspeakable tragedy. As for those of you participating in religious debate, the subject may be worthy of discussion but it doesn't belong in this forum please, have some decency and take the conversation elsewhere you are all behaving insensitively (Christians & atheists alike).

God gives us free will. We are not His robots. Free will means we will have drunk drivers, Adolph Hitler, and this maniac. I am a "believer" and I am not arrogant enough to believe I know God's plan. I do know he has a plan.

This world is not meant to be heaven. People get cancer, die in accidents, get killed in wars, and get killed by nutjobs. There is a heaven available to those who believe in Jesus. A place with no more tears.

If you TRUELY don't believe that there is a God, then you dont believe that there is a transceanding purpose to this life, and you shouldn't be grieving for the little kids and adults at all. To you they were nothing but accidental matter anyway. Tell me who determines right and wrong then? Do we (a flawed and selfish human race) set those perameters? Who has the ultimate say?

Concerned- I would tell you this, because I am an atheist I value life far more. I believe that this life is all that we get. There is no after life, there is no chance for eternity. Because I DO believe this way I value life far more. All life, from my own to those children and everything one and everything else. How terrible that those babies had there one shot taken from them.

Not believing in God does not make me a bad person. It does not make me immoral or unable to understand right and wrong. I know that my actions have an impact on others and their experience on this planet. I want all of us to have the time of our lives, in a respectful and sustainable way.

I do not believe this is the place for this discussion, because we are all entitled to believe what gets us through the day. I just ask you to not assume you know what someone values simply because they do not believe in God.

Why must people think God did this, he didn't do this. Satan did this, he caused this to happen not God. So people put the blame where it belongs on Satan. God loves all no matter of color or race God does not make bad things happen Satan does. God is good Satan is bad and the cause of all evil in the world.

Agreed, Rick. At this point, I'm pretty sick of hearing people parroting brainless pap like "oh, if God were in in schools, this wouldn't have happened." It's my understanding that followers believe that God is everywhere, so how does this make any sense at all? Carry your god in your heart at all times, but if you want to impose your belief system on my child, we've got an issue. Odd how these people who want to impose their beliefs on my constitutional rights are the same ones crying about the 2nd amendment.

As for concerned, who thinks that a belief in a deity is the only thing that imparts morals or compassion, some of us don't need a rule book - we feel compassion for others, we don't lie, cheat or steal, we help those less fortunate than us because it's the right thing to do - it feels right, it's what civilized people do. Not out of fear of hell fire, not out of fear of judgement. Not everyone needs the carrot and the stick.

Peoplenowadays: God and Satan are mythology. Stop blaming this on imaginary beings and step up and take responsibility for your actions. Satan didn't cause these deaths. A mentally ill man with access to too much firepower caused these deaths.

I never said it made someone a bad person OR immoral if they were an athiest. I asked what determines right and wrong, and I asked what determines those values. I havent had anyone answer those questions yet. I don't understand being satisfied with an existance without purpose, or having right and wrong determined by...I dont know what.

I value life because of what it is. Life created by God. Human life even more. I know that it is sacred and loved by God, and that he cares for you and me the same. Therefore my life and actions have an impact on everyone around me. Just like you, I am tired of being attacked for living my life according to Gods values. My post was directed at the people making fun, and critisizing the family and friends of the ones that had their lives taken from them. My whole point is to just let these people grieve in whatvever way they want to.

I think we have different views, but are really on the same page.

And yes, this is a forum for discussion.

Heather in Oregon - You are a beautiful person! Well said.

As for concerned, who thinks that a belief in a deity is the only thing that imparts morals or compassion, some of us don't need a rule book - we feel compassion for others, we don't lie, cheat or steal, we help those less fortunate than us because it's the right thing to do - it feels right, it's what civilized people do. Not out of fear of hell fire, not out of fear of judgement. Not everyone needs the carrot and the stick.

Again... please tell me where that sense of "right and wrong/ civilization" comes from. And please dont say "We are all born with a moral code". A child will lie and feel no remose unless it is taught otherwise.

I don't believe for "fear of hellfire". That is an untrue steriotype of Christians. Maybe if we understood each others views and answered each others questions, we could learn something from this discussion.

butters-5794795

What a narrow minded point of view regarding something that you couldn't possibly know. Get off your high horse Rick.

No, a narrow minded point of view is simply praising God for "good" things, and blaming Satan for "bad" things. I can see further from my high horse than you can from your socially-embedded myths.

And I really don't think a moral code should be set on "what FEELS right". It leaves a door open for justification. "It felt right to rob the bank to feed my starving family".

You state "civilized", but how is that determined?

That really doen't make much sense. Help me out here. These are honest questions that I have yet to have someone get to the bottom of.

Solomon said the little girl couldn't have survived "outside of divine intervention."

Well then F him for not saving the others!!!

So many intellectuals feel the need to show up and correct the Reverend. Why not piss off for a day?

by telling the parents who lost their children that this guy is wrong, aren't you telling them their kid is not in heaven? Please stay out of it. This is not the time and the place.

Wow, the Christian love is so warm in here. I love the, 'I'm such a wholesome Christian that I'm better than you, and I have so much Christian love in my heart that I wish eternal damnation on your soul," attitude. You're a bunch of hypocrites. You don't even practice the very nature of what you constantly preach at other people. You should all check yourselves before you go judging every person that doesn't see God working in the slaughter of so many innocent lives. How miserable your lives must be when your first instinct is to condemn a person you know nothing about, to eternal hellfire, instead of offering compassion and understanding, which your holy book demands of you. You'd know that if you actually practiced what you so hatefully preach.

ugh, this whole thing is a mess. There is no "right" thing to say. Someone will always critisize.

Your horrible if your a Christian.

Your horrible if your not.

The pastor was a jerk for saying that.

Your a jerk for standing up for the pastor.

The pastor was just trying to help.

Quit jumping on someone trying to help.

It's Gods fault

Its Satans fault

It's the parents fault

Its the guns fault

its Obamas fault

Its Republicans fault

Its Democrats fault

Thing is...it is a horendous act of violence that has shaken the world. One thing we can ALL agree on is that any act of voilence (expecially toward children) is horrible. My heart breaks for eveyone affected by this. This world is becoming worse, and no one notices because they are to busy arguing. Each one of those children are special, and each one was brave. Each one was a light in this dark hurtful world, and will not be forgotten. It is amazing that anyone survived. For the parents who lost their children I pray you find the strength to keep going in this difficult time. There is a confused nation and world that is hurting with you, and only wishes you strenghth, peace, and love in the coming years.

and DR-

No one is better then anyone else. Most Christians need to remember that they were not "saved from the womb" either. There is hate form both sides.

ConcernedByStupidity

You know, as an atheist and a former youth pastor, I usually feel obligated to point out the gross callousness of people like the man who says, "Thank GOD my kid is alive,' in the midst of dozens of dead children. How arrogant, insensitive can you get? You think Rick's post was insensitive? Religion and faith get passes NO other human ideology would ever receive, and yeah, I think it's high-time it's called out on its merits.

But I wasn't going to say anything until I read your drivel.

Nothing we say or do not say will help this situation—many children are dead, and many more permanently damaged by a mentally unstable psychopath. So my rebuttal to you will do no harm, but it may enlighten you, and others, as to the fallacy of your thinking—a thought process that is causing far more harm in the world than good.

People who know God understand that afterlife is not a horrendous thing. I am sure that the parents that have lost their children are not "mad" that another child made it out. God is good, and He is with each one of those little kids, and their families right now.

Which god? There are thousands, you know.

And you cannot know God, even if you pick the one of your choice. You can only "believe" in God. You can no more know he/she/it/their character than you can know what a stranger is thinking. You can guess, and most often, you're wrong. History is on the side of this fact.

But let's say you're correct. Are you really willing to sit there and defend a deity who would send children into an afterlife, no matter how 'nice' it is, via abject suffering? Have you forgotten about the suffering of those who your god allowed to LIVE through this, or how damaged they will be for the rest of their lives, all to give these other children a short life here with an 'afterlife' of pleasure? Do you believe they simply forget the agony of their parents and friends as they sit in the heavens?

Simply put: have you given this ANY rational thought whatsoever?

You ask "Where was God?"

Well, where was your "nothing"?

Where was "nothing?" Is this a serious question?

"Nothing" doesn't exist. No atheist counts on "nothing". We don't pray to "nothing". Best of all, we don't dream up dogmas and doctrines about "nothing" and attempt to force others to live under those standards.

A much better question from an atheist's point of view would be, "Where was the security guards," or in this case, "How can we take steps toward the prevention of more of these senseless tragedies?"

On the other hand, you simply CANNOT posit a god as a "savior" of one girl without, at the same time, giving him equal blame for the loss of the others. Oh, you try... all believers do. Yet you contradict not only common sense and reason, but the Bible itself.

Your "god" ordered the murder of every first-born in Egypt as a punishment. Your 'god' murdered pre-borns, newborns, and who knows how many children of this exact age in a supposed flood of a "totally wicked" earth, only to have it become, virtually instantly, wicked once more. Your 'god' ordered this in Ezekiel: "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." And currently, your 'god' allows the slow, torturous death of three children every MINUTE due to starvation and environmental causes that we don't have the science or ability to address.

So don't give me this "where is your nothing", especially when I don't purport a "something" this downright evil and incompetent.

If you TRUELY don't believe that there is a God, then you dont believe that there is a transceanding purpose to this life, and you shouldn't be grieving for the little kids and adults at all.

Wrong. I don't believe that there is evidence for any god or gods, especially Yahweh, and yet I have all the purpose I could ever dream of having in this life. Purpose is what YOU make it out to be. "Transcendent" is the word you're looking for, and for me, that means living a life for and beyond my own means for the benefit of others.

To claim you need a magical sky-daddy to grieve is just utterly stupid. Animals grieve their dead, and the last time I checked there wasn't Moses the Elephant in an ancient book somewhere.

To you they were nothing but accidental matter anyway. Tell me who determines right and wrong then? Do we (a flawed and selfish human race) set those perameters? Who has the ultimate say? There are way to many dead ends to that logic. You probably say "If you have walked in my shoes", "or "if you have lived my life"--well have you lived mine?

Ah, the argument from morality. One of my favorites.

Despite the fact we SEE the evolution of morality, literally in our lifetimes, you simply cannot conceive of morality without an objective source, can you?

Well, there's so many problems with that logic that it would take a book to address it, but I'll just give you a few.

First, you obviously believe your god is the moral lawgiver -- yet you reject his moral laws. You do not stone disobedient children, as Deuteronomy demands. You do not kill witches, enslave your daughters, sell your children as property debts, or stone people for working on Saturdays.

The way you get around this is abject bullish*t—"the old law vs the new covenant." Yeah, nice try—but the fact of the matter is these issues are immoral by our standards NOW, and would be ANYWHERE at ANYTIME. And since your god is unchanging, that means infanticide is on his morally "okay" list, along with slavery, etc.

Some moral compass you got there.

On the other hand, look at reality. Goodall's research into the morality of apes would be a great place to start. They have many of the same moral traits we do, including punishment for wrong-doing and giving their lives willingly for another ape.

Monkey Moses? No. Evolution -- in this case, societal evolution.

We are a species that demands cooperation and co-habitation. Within groups, "laws" naturally form and evolve. That's why our current laws change over time, and they will continue to change as we, as a collective, evolve.

I'll take THAT morality any day over the morality of a megalomaniacal monster who considers it "moral" to inflict infinite punishment for finite crimes, or to visit the sins of the father "12 generations deep" -- yeah, it's all in the book you claim gives you your moral compass. Just look it up.

What a poor miserable existence you must have! No purpose at all. Just breathe, eat, and die? If you truely didn't believe that there is a God, you also wouldn't debate and slam people who know that there is one. Why can't you be honest with yourself.

I'm quite the happy camper!

As for your next breech of logic (I do recommend a class on logic so you can learn the fallacies), that of, "If you truly didn't believe there was a god you wouldn't debate it..." blah, blah, well that's just beyond stupid.

Let me spell it out for you:

1. I do not believe your god exists. "A" superior being of some kind may exist somewhere, but so far 'zero' evidence for this being exists.

2. I also do not believe Harry Potter exists, except, like Yahweh, in literature.

3. IF people believed Harry Potter was real... and if Harry Potter, in literature, claimed that the only way you could escape eternal torture is to believe contradictory, immoral commandments and in him personally, despite NO evidence for him even existing, I'd be on every Harry Potter forum, trying to talk sense into my fellow humans.

4. And, if Harry Potter demanded DEATH (as Yahweh did in the old testament), and promised to answer prayers (common sense and The Harvard Prayer study are just two things to put an end to that promise), and at the same time people like you THANKED Harry Potter for sparing the life of one child while 20 others died, I'd be verbally slapping you about, just like I am right now...

...and...wait for it:

...this would NOT mean I truly believe in Harry Potter.

Does this analogy help you understand why you should consider changing your moniker?

When people talk about aliens coming to take us away, I dont critisize. I don't care what they believe. If people wanted to believe in Santa to help the grieving process, then let them do it! Many of us will never face this kind of pain. Why are people so hostal to us who DO find comfort God. The parents, friends and family have a long road ahead of them. I have cried and prayed all weekend for every family and friend thats life was changed because of this tragedy.

And if god-believers had the same dogma as preached by aliens and Santa, you'd never hear a peep out of us. But religion goes infinitely further. Religion promises things it cannot deliver (like Santa), but demands you believe ANYWAY, despite the lack of anything under the tree.

Finally, you and others here speak of Rick being on a "high horse." Let me tell you what's the real high horse: professing belief, even PRAISE, for a deity incapable of preventing 'anything'.

Do you have any idea how many children died of small pox? Have you ever seen a victim of small pox? It's a horrible, painful death. 600,000 people DEAD from this virus.

On what day did your god create small pox? Ebola? The bubonic plague? The immune system? (After all, the original intention was two people in a garden forever without sin... why the need for an immune system?)

You can believe whatever you want. That's what's great about America. But you were never given the right to be free from the "consequences" of your freedom of religion or speech. One of those consequences involves being bitch-slapped by reason.

How many people think this is the time and place for an atheist and religious war?

Get off the soapbox and think about the terror this poor sweet little child has to go through for the rest of her life. I’m asking you, no I’m begging you to stop. In my travels I have met a Nurse that had nightmares for years after going through the Delta crash 191 seeing burnt bodies and another friend a chemical engineering student working with the coast guard that had to pull out bodies from a boat wreckage. By the time they got there the bodies were bloated. He couldn’t sleep. His only sleep for a long time was when he passed out from reading.

This is a small little child. Do what you can to solve this? There is no way any of us should accept what happened to these babies. It is like someone waged war on the babies. It's sick!

Mental Health is the issue. The mental health system in this country sucks. It has been a total disaster for decades. We treat our pets better than the mentally ill. Everyone including this killer’s mother expects them to be normal. They are not normal. How many people expect a 75 year old heart patient to run a mile in 4 minutes flat? Why doesn’t this country treat the mentally ill the same as someone dealing with a heart condition? Nothing is going to change unless we change it.

The news stated this woman got over 260,000 a year and knew her son could not socialize. Her solution give him computer video game and teach him how to shoot. Where was the counselor? Please help us cure this crap.

Here's a link so everyone can see what kind of guns killed these children. These were assault weapons, not guns for hunting animals, but guns for shooting people. Some say the semi-automatic handguns killed the victims, but last I read, the coroner said they were all killed by the assault rifle. Does it make any difference which weapon of war killed them?

Today is a day to mourn for these precious children and their teachers and today is the day to speak up, Americans, and tell the NRA that we will not let them or their supporters bully us anymore.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/15/inside-sandy-hook-elementary-school/1772307/

BAN ALL AUTOMATIC AND SEMI-AUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPONS.

WOW! Some find comfort in a belief in God and others lack the basic human compassion to not be jerks. Great job! The fact that so many thumbs up the comment(s) shows how pathetic newsvine readers have become. Talk about being intolerant and bigoted. The US at one time was a country based on the supporting of other's rights to their religious beliefs, now its becoming a country filled with angry and miserable people who have no compassion for anything or anyone.

Very true, Mike.

It is hard to state an opinion or comment in this Vine without being attacked, cursed, vilified, etc.

Whenever I talk about being a Christian or believing in God, I am assaulted from the left. If I mention stricter gun laws, I am attacked from the right.

I've learned to not let it get me down. Trolls will be trolls. Narrow-minded people will be narrow-minded. Jerks will be jerks.

Actually, it is rather amusing at times to watch their blood pressure rise.

@ Jon. Well said.

@ Talk.

I hope you enjoy your perceived invincibility........at least as long as you have it.

Another snotty, condescending comment just because someone doesn't believe in your particular fairy tale. And you wonder why we don't want to be like you.

To all of you posters hating on Rick, let me tell you this; I wanted to reach out an strangle the person who told me it was God's will after my loss! Why must people say it is "divine intervention" or "God's will" when they offer sympathy? Why not just say you are sorry? I agree with the poster who asked how the other parents are feeling knowing that God did not intervene to say their children. It sounds like platitude to the grieving person. I know we fall back on our religion when we don't know what to say.

People, I beg you to tell families who lose love ones that you are sorry for their loss or nothing at all. A hug would suffice if you are at a loss for words.

Houstonite

How miserable must you be, that you have to post something like this instead of just looking the other way.

Blind faith will not even begin to stop this problem. Your advice that I simply "look the other way" seems to be what America has done for decades. How's that been working out? Is that what you would have done had you physically been in that Sandy Hook elementary school last week: you would have just "looked the other way?" How miserable it must be to live with such cowardice. I'm not ever looking away again, not as long as little children can be shot at will by any motivated individual with a trigger finger, unprotected by people too afraid to look hard at a real problem in favor of simply putting it in "God's hands", totally oblivious to the kinds of decisive actions that are needed to prevent another tragedy.

This is what I get sick and tired of: people making claims about God's great hand being there to protect some, while ignoring the others. Give it a rest. So what was so divine about this child that saved her, and not the others? She was fortunate enough, probably in shock, and did what was inherent in her nature and it worked. Tell the parents of those whose children were lost that their babies weren't divine enough to warrant God's intervention. Enough of the fairy tales and myths. A man had guns and many bullets, he pointed it and shot little children to death. Deal with FACTS for a change! Wringing hands and praying to an invisible God in the sky isn't going to solve this problem and bad habits of reinforcement should have been put to rest centuries ago. After all, that defines insanity perfectly: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

Thank you Rick! You said it all and said it well. And look at all the babbling Christian reactionaries after your post: blah blah blah. Same old blithering idiots.

I'm sick and tired of all the deity references to what happened. Some even suggest a lack of prayer in school was the cause. How absurd and stupid. Religion has caused more ills in the world than any plague or other social infection. Be gone with it.

As sad as it is, at least she is young enough that she may not always remember what she saw. The mind has a way of stashing those things away so they never have to be recalled.

I do not understand why the religious get so upset when their views are challenged. There are many things I believe. I believe all life is beautiful-I do not kill even a spider (in fact I hide them from my fiance so he won't kill them). I believe in a vegetarian lifestyle (my family are omnivores). I believe eating genetically modified food is dangerous. I welcome discussion on any of these beliefs. I am always interested to learn why I might be wrong.

In religion the discussion is even more important. It is my belief that while people believe that there is a Father looking down from above that they will not feel personal responsibility to act on their own. If I see a starving child what should I do?

a. Pray that the child be fed.

b. Feed the child.

I highly recommend the program "Letting go of God". It is almost precisely the journey I went through in arriving where I am now.

Rick's Real - NAIL ON THE HEAD ON THE BELOW!!! NAIL ON THE HEAD!!! Best comment I've read on here in very long while.

This is what I get sick and tired of: people making claims about God's great hand being there to protect some, while ignoring the others. Give it a rest. So what was so divine about this child that saved her, and not the others? She was fortunate enough, probably in shock, and did what was inherent in her nature and it worked. Tell the parents of those whose children were lost that their babies weren't divine enough to warrant God's intervention. Enough of the fairy tales and myths. A man had guns and many bullets, he pointed it and shot little children to death. Deal with FACTS for a change! Wringing hands and praying to an invisible God in the sky isn't going to solve this problem and bad habits of reinforcement should have been put to rest centuries ago. After all, that defines insanity perfectly: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

T Diddy

Rick (and all those who agreed with your statement), There is a special place for you that many know as Dante's 9th ward.

Really? And where would this place be? Be specific. Use real world standards, not myths, legends and fairy tales. Hell? Where exactly? Not of this world? What an eternally convenient con that has been perpetrated upon this world for too many centuries. Time to wake up.

Slimyone

Rick believes that God had nothing to do with it because he doesn't believe in God.

Slimyone seems an appropriate username for you. Who the @!$%# are you to tell anyone what MY beliefs are? Don't comment about what you think I believe because you cannot even begin to know what I believe.

I highly recommend Lee Strobel's books The Case for Christ and The Case for Faith. Written by a former atheist, it addresses the toughest questions that atheists asks and answers them very thoroughly and well.

Also, C.S. Lewis's book Mere Christianity is a classic book written by one of the greatest scholars and philosophers of the twentieth century. A bit more in depth to read, but for those who are intellectual skeptics, it is fascinating.

And yet, neither of those book give PROOF to your fantasy called 'God'. Frankly, neither does the Bible, for that matter.

Rick's post was probably one of the most thoughtful and well written I've ever seen on this 'news' site, ever. Thank you Rick for your intelligence and whit.

Rick's Real's original comment has evolved here into a battle of insults between believers and non-believers. That's because of a lack of comprehension of what his message WAS. It doesn't matter who believes what or who's right, you don't even have to bother professing whether you believe or not. It doesn't matter what the parents of either the dead children or the surviving children believe. All of us know about God and what he's supposed to represent. So when the pastor says this little girl survived because "God intervened" on her behalf, the flip side of that statement is telling the parents of the dead children that their children died because God DIDN'T intervene on their behalf. Whether they believe in God or not, it's a slap in the face to THEM. What do you think this girl's mother would answer if the mother of a dead child asked her "Why did God save your child and not mine?" I wonder how that pastor would answer that? I mean, other than with that usual cop-out "It was God's plan" or "will" or "God works in mysterious ways.", or "No one knows why God does what he does." A REAL answer, why was the dead child not worthy of being saved? If it was an adult, some might reason "Well, he must have been an evil person, so he deserved it." But one six year old over another? I would not want to try to answer that. I would not want to cause the victim's parents, in their grief, OR the survivor's parents in their guilt, to begin to think like that. I believe in God (for those small minds who will not comprehend what I'm saying here), and I would offer comfort and solace and God's Blessing for the victim's families. But I would not have told the little girl's mother that God saved her daughter, (but not the rest. Flip side!) I would have said, "She's the luckiest, smartest, bravest little girl in the world." But I wouldn't have made the suggestion that she was 'chosen' over all of her friends by God. I can see her growing up hating God for killing her friends if she believes that.

Poor baby. What a burden to carry in her life. And the suggestion that God somehow chose her to survive while letting her little friends perish is REALLY toxic.

I highly recommend Lee Strobel's books The Case for Christ and The Case for Faith. Written by a former atheist, it addresses the toughest questions that atheists asks and answers them very thoroughly and well.

Also, C.S. Lewis's book Mere Christianity is a classic book written by one of the greatest scholars and philosophers of the twentieth century.

You're kidding, right?

Strobel is perhaps the WORST of the apologists, and Lewis' straw man count nearly reaches infinity. I personally asked Lee to explain Genesis 1:2 in any rational sense. He could not. He posited 'magic' as the final answer. He's moved on from being a Genesis literalist, but that raises a HOST of problems; namely the need for a savior to begin with. No literal Genesis, no literal Adam, and no literal fall. A literalist cannot explain a thousand passages, but Genesis 1:2 is one of my favorites (most apologists don't even know why it's a problem passage.)

If you're interested, and I realize you're not, feel free to google the mountainous amount of rebuttal against each and every argument presented by these guys (although I do think Lewis was a decent writer, which is a far cry from most apologists.)

Thanks "Want to Know". That's the problem here. The pastor's probable good intentions seemed to have been outweighed by the desire to make dramatic, over the top statements. I call them this ONLY because either there was no consideration or a complete disregard of how this comment might make this little girl feel, or how it would make the families of the all the children who did not survive feel.

Talk to the Hand

Rick's post with 105 up votes exemplifies what is wrong with society today. There is no one but me me me that controls my life. I was created because I evolved and therefore control my own destiny.

You go, Ayn Rand, you go.

No... wait:

"I was created because I evolved..."

You realize that statement is batsh*t crazy and the very definition of anti-reason, right?

Well that you do Rick. God gave all of us free will. what we do with it IS your destiny. I hope you enjoy your perceived invincibility........at least as long as you have it.

Free will, eh?

So, your argument would be that your god gave this psycho the 'free will' to incur some mental condition and blow away a school, and that's it's not GOD'S fault because of that free will.

Listen, Einstein: If I told my kids they were free creatures—that no matter what I would not interfere with their 'free will'—and one of them lit the house on fire, who would the police blame? Who would YOU blame? The parent, of course, for a lousy-ass job of parenting.

Now, even if your free will myth were true, that would also by definition rule out ANY interference from god in any way. A miracle save would be a VIOLATION of free will.

And, whose 'free will' is it that allows, say, 15,000 children a year to die in remote, impossible-to-irrigate places on the planet, exactly?

We have to put this fairy tale nonsense behind us so that we CAN come up with real, tangible solutions. The old saying, "Two hands in labor is better than a thousand in prayer" rings more than true right now. The belief in anything that removes us from the equation, even in mourning, is disempowering and counterproductive. People have the right to belief what they will, but that belief may be the death of us all.

It is amusing to read comments from people like Angela and Jon about Lee Strobel's books and C.S. Lewis, too. Obviously, neither of the posters had read either of the authors and yet felt compelled to say negative things about them although they possessed no knowledge of them.

This is called narrow-minded and prejudiced thinking, and renders their own posts unintelligent and unpersuasive. Also, neither poster seemed to possess the verbal and cognitive abilities to grasp Lewis' writings, but if they ever read any of Strobel's writings, they would find themselves face to face with difficult arguments.

I call it laughable myself, but it actually quite sad. I would prefer to debate with a more rational opponent.

@ rick

thanks for being honest about your opinion regardless of the harassment..... religion of any kind is a virus of the brain {much like a virus in a computer}

it is unfortunate but religion teaches people to think in such a way as to open them up to believe they are special ....this specialness can and dose lead to thinking they have the power to inflect their brand of justice .

this is what we have all just witnessed in this tragedy

Wade, it seems that you try to explain the spiritual in physical and psychological terms.

So you are starting with the wrong premise in the first place, which probably explains why you cannot find the answers.

@silverton

what wait how can you say that how do you know I haven't found the answers form Zeus "lol" .....what a ridicules thing to say. your just proving my point.

it is physical and psychological . religion "the virus" has corrupted your hard drive to the point you cant see the illogical premise of your statement.

"spiritual" is just an illusion brought on by your brains mapping ability IE:if you are the center of the map you imagine you must be the center of the reality you see.

Talk to the Hand

Rick's post with 105 up votes exemplifies what is wrong with society today.

Up to 138 votes now. "Talk to the Hand" in today's term defines an unwillingness to listen, no? Maybe I'm really what's right with society today.

There is no one but me me me that controls my life. I was created because I evolved and therefore control my own destiny.

You have no knowledge of my mind, no comprehension of who I see myself as, nor any ability to define with your tiny words my eternal self. Guessing simply ends up making you the fool.

Well that you do Rick. God gave all of us free will. what we do with it IS your destiny. I hope you enjoy your perceived invincibility........at least as long as you have it.

My invincibility, perceived or otherwise, means nothing compared to the real invincibility which Adam Lanza posessed last week in the form of two handguns, a shotgun, an AR-15 assault rifle, hundreds of rounds of ammunition and a trigger finger. Nobody gives a @!$%# anymore whether or not you believe he went to hell. It is of no value or consequence relative to the murder of these lovely children, nor to the suffering of their families whether or not God is punishing him.

You can talk about your beliefs all you want. What you cannot do anymore is project your beliefs onto me, nor onto others for the purpose of pushing forward a Christian point of view which I, as well as so many others, believe is a moneymaking venture and a con perpetrated on humanity for centuries by far too many who have the arrogance to dare think themselves representative of God, and worse, even to believe themselves Holy.

Wade,

Ah, I see ... so you are saying you have no soul.

NOW FOR THE FIX

we need a mandatory counseling for ALL students by a real psychiatrist.

the details to be worked out but lets say 4 times a year with the option for more when the DR see's fit.

this will cost but not as much as most other options and will be more effective.

@ silverton

must I spell out every thing ....yes I have no soul you have no soul NO ONE has a soul it is just an illusion .

whats more only a human that has been trained to think in a religious way can think the way this "killer did".

and those of us that think clearly and don't need a psychological crutch DON'T forgive you for you know not what you do......

To Rick

This is a prime example of why we are witnessing so many tragedies in the world today. The majority of folks have no faith in God, just like Rick..There was a time when Rick probably believed in a supreme being until so many expressed their anger and non belief in God and he chose to side with the majority.

He, along with believers, have no assurance of whether or not there is a God. We only have faith in his word, which has survived the test of time over and over again.

He is in our prayers.

silverton-2953905

It is amusing to read comments from people like Angela and Jon about Lee Strobel's books and C.S. Lewis, too. Obviously, neither of the posters had read either of the authors and yet felt compelled to say negative things about them although they possessed no knowledge of them.

Silverton, would you care to debate the issue? I do hope you agree, as I'm a former pastor. These were my 'secondary bibles' in school.

I know it's difficult for theists of any brand to reconcile that someone may know their source materials far better than they, and yet still disagree with the conclusions drawn. Yet, such is life. Such is reality.

Or, feel free to PM me and we can chat about Strobel's empty tomb argument, his fallacious argument from design, or Lewis' ridiculous morph on Pascal's Wager.

Either way, it's best not to make assertions about someone whom you do not even know based solely upon a knee-jerk emotional tick.

@kkwilson

so the only reason you don't do something bad is your fear of the God?????? you need to seek help PLEASE before it's to late.

unlike rick who seams to just know rite from wrong you have to be forced to do rite ....you my friend are sick!!!!!

Ban handguns and semi-automatic weapons.

Rick's Real,

Your disrespect for another's comment is appalling and ignorant especially when your focus is mainly on your hate for religion and God. The article is about a very young survivor of this tragric event and not your dislike and disbelief of someone else's religious beliefs.

People like you use forums like this to bash anyone who doesn't fit your criteria or non beliefs instead of little girl's amazing survival. Keep your self righteous hate to yourself.

Wade, how do you know if you have no soul? Or perhaps yours is dead or just empty?

You cannot prove spiritual things by science. They require no physical proof.

And Jon, perhaps on another date we shall debate. I'm off to bed now.

@kkwilson

To Rick: This is a prime example of why we are witnessing so many tragedies in the world today. The majority of folks have no faith in God, just like Rick..There was a time when Rick probably believed in a supreme being until so many expressed their anger and non belief in God and he chose to side with the majority.

You twit.

Over 2/3 of the planet believe in one form of imaginary sky-tyrant or another. And, when you read your god's 'holy book', you'll see more violence in the Pentateuch than you'll witness on the nightly news in a decade. So please... stop (or start) smoking whatever it is that's giving you fits of delusions, or simply read a f*cking history book.

There was a time you were an atheist. Someone indoctrinated you with the beliefs you currently possess. All children are atheists until otherwise told what to believe.

So freakin what?

He, along with believers, have no assurance of whether or not there is a God. We only have faith in his word, which has survived the test of time over and over again.

The onus is on the person making the claim.

You have zero assurance of their 'being' a god; only blind faith. We have no evidence for your god. There's a massive difference, especially given the counter-evidence against the existence of Yahweh, starting with the utter fail of Genesis, and concluding with the gross errors of Paul.

Oh, that Paul... from the 'near end of times' errors to 'the gospel has been preached in the entire world' botch. Yeah, Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, thought the gospel had reached Japan, New Zealand, and the Americas. You'd think the Spirit would know better. (And, yes, in case you're going to make the claim of context or verbiage, the Greek work is "kosmos", which means "planet".)

In short, a book rife with cosmological, historical, prophetic, and technical error and contradiction upon contradiction is why we don't believe in your particular god. The violence and chaos of the universe is a reason to doubt there being 'any' being that gives a sh*t about humanity existing at all. Perhaps you've been reading your tracts a bit too much to notice, but 99.96% of all life on planet earth has gone extinct, 3 children die every minute from hunger and environmentally unpreventable causes (thanks Yahweh!), and Justin Bieber is a thing.

Ya... no god.

As for your god's book surviving: perhaps you should look into how the Bible you now think is his word came into being, including all the books that mere mortals tossed out. Have a look at the council votes on some of the books, as it was basically a flip of the coin. And, we know without a doubt there are books referenced in the Bible that are now missing.

So much for his perfect word staying in tact over the centuries.

Oh, and have a look at the Egyptian Book of The Dead. Then read Exodus 21. See if they sound a tad familiar. Then come to terms with the fact Exodus was written centuries after. Did he also inspire the Egyptian text, as it came first? If so, he's a bit confused on things.

He is in our prayers.

Yes, of course he is. You accuse him of having the mindset that's destroying civilization (i.e. your narrow worldview), and then ... you pray for him.

Don't worry... the rational among us will think for you.

@silverton:

I'd enjoy that.

As for your claim: all things require evidence. Period. You believe because of evidence, be it written (the Bible I presume), be it miracles in the Bible, which Jesus HIMSELF said were done so that 'you may believe' (i.e. evidence), or warm fuzzy feelings, which is 90% faith, and zero percent evidence.

Over a billion people believe in reincarnation. Prove them wrong.

You cannot... nor should you even have to. The onus is ALWAYS on the claimant. And, the onus is on you to give evidence for souls, and afterlife, or whatever supernatural claim you posit. Stating that you cannot prove the spiritual with the physical, by definition, means you cannot make any claims about it at all. For, all claims would be made 'from' the very physical world you claim cannot serve as proof of the metaphysical. Even saying, for example, "I've experienced Jesus," is a physical claim about a metaphysical event. It's physical because you've mentally processed through chemical reactions and neurodendrites an event to mean X.

Sleep well.

god only had one son! What a waist. Why not 100 or 1000. If one has done so much , think of what a 1000 could have done. only one and it was not even his wife. Oh because he is god he can do this. Sounds like he is crazy like CM

amazing....even an event like this - no one brought together

I have lost a child and I can tell you that the parents who have lost children DO NOT WANT to hear that one particular child was saved while the other was murdered. What kind of God is that cruel? So take it from someone who knows the agony and heartache of these parents... don't stay STUPID stuff like this was God's will and it is not our place to question God! This was a heinous act by a murderer and some children were just plain lucky while others were not. Do you honestly think God chooses which people are going to die every day and allows young, innocent children to be killed in such a horrible way? Just use your brain. That pastor was not very bright making such a cruel, but well-intentioned, statement. When my own son died, I actually vomited when people made such insensitive comments like that preacher made! So regardless of what you believe, have a little concern for the parents... the parents of the ones who died!

Another line that made me throw up was "God needed another flower in heaven." Are you kidding me? He needed a flower so he allowed my son to die and caused me unbearable pain and sorrow? Come on people... if it was YOUR child who died, you might not receive those inane comments so well.

Just a couple things. To thank God that your child is alive even though there are so many dead is anything but callous it is Love. Sure your heart will bleed for those lost, but every fiber of your being rejoices that your child lived. I will guarantee you that child's parent will remember the second that they saw thier baby alive forever. Second thing. "If there is a God why would he save one and not the others" and any other comments about what a monster God is if this is his will. The bible says sin is not from God. Sin is from the flesh. The bible says God (with much suffering) allows the vessels of destruction to live. These kinds of events hurt God much more than they hurt us. Third you must realize God does not view death as the end. Especially for these children. For God and the children this day marks a new beginning. Now I did not write this with any belief that it would sway you, but maybe you will stop for long enough to see that this is what we believe so that maybe some of your anger towards us will recede a little. There is nothing in our beliefs that should cause such anger as I see on these post.

I'm happy she is alive, but sad that this thread is so badly derailed. Well done all of us. /golfclap

I'm with Rick on this one. There was no divine intervention of any kind here, just a combination of luck and circumstance. The kid most likely hit the deck when the bullets started flying then was probably under a pile of bodies, making it easy for her to play dead. She gets lucky when Lanza thinks he's wiped out the whole room and moves on.

Where I come from, survival rule #1 has always been "It's Up to You to Help Yourself". Depending on the exact circumstances, either there will be no one around to help you or there will be plenty of people around and they will all be looking out for #1. The only time anyone might, and I say might, help you is if it does not come between them and their own survival. In terms of emergency responders, you need to have the basic capability of doing something that allows them to get to you; this does not mean hiding in a hole somewhere so they can look for a needle in a haystack.

Divine intervention is nothing more than an invention of people who make a living using religion to separate people from their money. All you have to do is browbeat people long enough and they'll start to believe anything you tell them, like they'll never amount to anything or accomplish anything without some sort of divine intervention. It's all about controlling people to separate them from their money.

Oh look! Yet ANOTHER thread meant to commemorate the deceased in this tragedy hijacked and completely ruined by the so-called "tolerant", "open minded" and "new age progressive" crowd. Now let me put on my suprised face.

Carry on, children. Carry on.

Pfffffffffffffft.

If mothers and women can't be more influential with gun laws than the stupid NRA then I guess we deserve our fate.....

After reading the last 100 posts... I blame all of us for the shooting.

Why the heck is there even debate about religion up here? This little girl is traumatized! For life! All her friends are gone!

Boy, there should be no surprise as to why shootings occurred the way it did...people argue over the silliest things! People are too hostile today! I don't know who to blame for it or what. And although the crime has decreased according to statistics, the reasoning behind these cases is unimaginably horrifying. you say they were mental? Well look at HALF OF AMERICA! Half of America is crazy! So I guess we should all be sitting in a mental institution! What next, we're going to be arguing over left wingers, right wingers, liberalism, conservatism, the whole nine yard....sigh.....

The end of the world? December 21st? The world has as we know it has already ended, a long time ago....

Raygirl, that is the best post on this thread, especially your last sentence. What is even more unfortunate, some yelling the loudest are the ones that are probably most unsure about their true beliefs. I do know that God has a way of changing hearts. I know because I was an atheist in my youth, too, for almost 20 years! I would actually laugh in the faces of believers. They got the last smile!

Raygirl,

The debate about religion is because the original story (the girl surviving) was hijacked by religion. When I read that I was deeply offended as was Rick.

Then listening to these neochrists posting here with the shut up or get out posts while being able to state anything they like made it worse. Those saying Rick should shut up if he doesn't like what the pastor said should really take their own advice.

Religion is an anathema. A blight on the human condition.

Consider this: 6,000 yrs of abrahamic religion, 100,000+ yrs of human existence (if you understand 7th grade science), and 400 yrs of scientific enlightenment.

Within that 400 year hairs-width of human existence we have doubled our life expectancy, eradicated diseases, discovered flight, invented radio/television/cell phones , computers, discovered electricity, flown to the moon, unraveled our own DNA, heart and other vital organ transplants, and almost any other major human achievement has occurred within the last 400 years because someone concluded that god was not the answer, not the reason, and that only with critical thinking and rational logic could these things be achieved.

Furthermore we live in a country that is most certainly not christian, see Tripoli Treaty ratified by the US congress in 1797 stating that very thing:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,...

We live in a country, the only one on the planet that specifically invokes a secular constitution. The only one of it's kind, and of that, the most innovations on the planet came from it.

There is no arguing with this. The less mythology fills our answers for things, the more things are discovered, treated, understood.

If you reconcile that god dunnit with a mysterious answer to a mysterious question you need to reflect. If you truly believe a god allowed those other children to die while saving one is true, then you need to reflect on what kind of monster you worship and why you worship it.

Jon-2730330- That was probably the greatest post I have ever read, Thank you!

My favorite is the "God has a plan but we have free will" contradiction. Its one or the other but it can't be both.

Jon-2730330- That was probably the greatest post I have ever read, Thank you!

My favorite is the "God has a plan but we have free will" contradiction. Its one or the other but it can't be both.

Hi Group:

I admit I am trolling, but I cannot help it after reading all of the above posts:

"In the beginning there was nothing.....

Then GOD said "Let there be light"

There was still nothing, but now you could see it."

Did GOD create man, before man created GOD?

There is only one way to truely discover if there is a god, but by then it is too late.

OK. I feel better (and, I even voted for myself)(so there)

My baby would have been 26 this past April had a drunk driver not killed her. God allows us the people to do our goods and bads. We all have our hours of death and a way of dying. Now I just need to work harder to get to be with my baby girl. Until one of you prove to me that my child is not sitting on the lap of my God then I don't need to hear it. These parents seem to have enough religous strength to know that they too need to work to be with their child again. Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 helped me make it through the hardest time of my life. Have I forgotten her, never, there is not a time that goes by that I don't think of her smile, her giggle, but I know now what I have to do. May God bless each of you and touch you with a healing hand.

Creek Dog and the others bashing Rick:

You are spot on! I think Creek Dog even said "We want to express how sad it is". You are thinking ONLY of YOURSELVES. Who cares what you think? Your child was not in the middle of this. Your son/daughter was not a witness or victim. You call Rick cold-hearted? LOOK IN A MIRROR!!! All you care about is YOUR belief and how YOU feel. You care not for the families of those who have passed, or you would understand what this statement means to THEM. You don't even care that statements like this are detrimental to the surviving child and her family- they are ALREADY going through Survivors' Guilt- now you wish to make that guilt WORSE??? By insunuating that their child was somehow more deserving of life than the other children? That they were more deserving to keep their child than the other parents?

You cruel, selfish, small, and close-minded people. But its OK because like your holiday, its all about you, right? Its "Merry Christmas", not "Seasons Greetings" or "Happy Holidays", right? Peace on Earth, and Goodwill towards all mankind (but if your not Christian, then @#$%! you).

Do these families a favor: Shut Up and Sit Down until you can grow a heart.

Losghost and shawn1999: Thanks for having my back. Great posts.

Jon 2730 -- My problem is not with God (one way or the other). It is with men who absolutely
are certain they know the mind of God. If they knew the mind of God, then they would be God, which they absolutely are not. The Civil War is one of the more horrendous examples of men knowing
nothing of such matters. Carnage, bloodshed, and death on a grand scale - with each side being
led by those who were absolutely certain God was on their side and supporting their cause -- due
to their interpretation of selected out of context scriptures. Yet at the same I have a difficult time looking at a clear starry sky at night and thinking their is no meaning, no purpose. So I will continue to be uncertain, and continue to ask God for comfort and solace for those who are suffering - no matter who they may be. "Where have all the flowers gone" ? -- old white men and their politics and greed have picked them. And I am an old white man - coming to my senses only a few years ago when I was diagnosed with cancer, and began facing my own mortality.

ConcernedByStupidity had this to say:

I never said it made someone a bad person OR immoral if they were an athiest. I asked what determines right and wrong, and I asked what determines those values. I havent had anyone answer those questions yet. I don't understand being satisfied with an existance without purpose, or having right and wrong determined by...I dont know what.

Actually, no. Here's what you said:

If you TRUELY don't believe that there is a God, then you dont believe that there is a transceanding purpose to this life, and you shouldn't be grieving for the little kids and adults at all. To you they were nothing but accidental matter anyway. Tell me who determines right and wrong then? Do we (a flawed and selfish human race) set those perameters? Who has the ultimate say? There are way to many dead ends to that logic. You probably say "If you have walked in my shoes", "or "if you have lived my life"--well have you lived mine?

This is called using loaded language to project your own view of someone else's viewpoint. Where do you come off saying that this or that person cannot grieve for people because, as atheists, they must believe that the dead are "accidental matter"? Also, where do you come off saying that there are dead ends to someone else's logic? Both these things are statements--both imply that a person cannot grieve, and therefore is a bad person. If anything, these statements are themselves an exhibition of someone making up his own rules as he is going along.

I realize that you are just trolling, but for anyone else who happens to be reading, it works like this.

If there is no God who controls things and determines values, then we have to determine values for ourselves. We also have to do our best to control things. We don't do this because we will get rewarded if we are "good," we don't do these things because we will get punished if we are "bad," we don't do these things because there is some transcendent purpose. Some of us aren't little children that need to believe that there is a set of god-given rules to abide by--and that we will be rewarded or punished.

Standards come from our agreements--we do the best we can in any situation, knowing that we could be wrong. We agree that it is a bad thing to kill little children--we agree that it is unfortunate that their parents are sad (though "sad" doesn't begin to say it). We can grieve over the sadness of the parents, the fact that those little children won't get to experience joy any more, and the fact that we are all impoverished by losing whatever kind and helpful things those children might have done. We value human life because life is all there is--it may be an accident, but it is a wonderful and happy and serendipitous accident.

On the other hand, those who believe in a God and believe that others will be punished can easily walk by suffering and not feel a compulsion to do anything about it. If it weren't intended punishment, then God wouldn't allow it to happen--so if gay men are dying of AIDS, then it is God's will, and we have no need to intervene. If we are Amish and believe that God punishes all wrongdoing, then we have no need to incarcerate people who molest small children because the punishment that person will receive from God is far greater than anything we will do (and, by the by, the Amish do not punish child molesters beyond ostracizing them for a while--and then accepting them back into the community).

Apparently you need to think that there is some cosmic rule before you are going to bother to follow it. I don't need a cosmic rule. I prefer to see people happy, I prefer to do what is kind, I prefer to do what will decrease suffering--because I happen to have the capacity to empathize with others and to prefer that they not suffer. It is my observation that when people are kind to one another and increase the happiness of everyone in the community, that I tend to be happier also--but that people after me will be happier also. It pleases me to think that the world will be slightly better for those who come after me because I chose to try to help others. That's really all I need.

If you need a cosmic rule and a reward and punishment--well, I feel sorry for you. You have little capacity for empathy and little concern for your fellows. If there is a God--and, well, I'm willing to admit that it's always possible that I'm wrong--I suspect that he will frown a lot more on someone who only behaved because he feared God's wrath than he will frown on someone who lived by the same moral code simply because it was a pretty sensible one which led to greater happiness for all.

I believe that it was Randy Gervais who played God as someone who enjoyed greeting atheists as they entered heaven--he enjoyed their surprise, but he also was impressed by the fact that they lived their lives doing things for others when they expected absolutely nothing in return and no punishment if they lived selfishly. It really is a lot more impressive when people behave "just because." And, if there is a God, I expect that the take that Gervais has will be right--and atheists (who, in general, tend to be kinder, donate more money, and engage in social welfare projects at a higher rate--though, of course, there are exceptions) don't have anything to worry about either way.

Still, those people who want to believe in God don't have much to worry about either--unless, like the fellow who turned down two boats and a helicopter waiting for God's intervention, they don't avail themselves of human help or refuse to offer similar help to others. Even if there is no God, they will never know the difference. Six of one, half dozen of another.

shawn1999

Do these families a favor: Shut Up and Sit Down until you can grow a heart.

I invite debate while your side continually attempts to repress it. Do us all a favor: Stand up, speak up, until you can grow a brain.

Hopefully the parents will have her in therapy immediately.

The absolute worst thing to allow, with a child that has had such a terrifyingly unimaginable event such as this, is to indicate to them just how terrifyingly unimaginable event it must have been. Children are very resilient. If they are allowed to heal they will heal. Provide the support and comfort but don't ever dole on how horrible it must have been...kids will start thinking they're supposed to be f'd up after experiencing something like this.

.

I'm tired of all this religious BS. Christians think they are right 100% of the time. There can be NO other viewpoint/belief. I think that is just ignorance. You tell people they are wrong because they don't believe every word of the Bible. How do you know that you are right? Have you seen God? Have you died and come back to life? No. Otherwise you'd be "Jesus" and we would call you a false prophet. You assume everyone is wrong except you. Get off all YOUR high horses.

What is unfortunate is that with her age she will not be able to completely bury the memory in all likelihood.

Which means that in all likelihood without years of therapy with a good therapist she will never be well-adjusted, so hopefully she will get a quality therapist.

I'd probably investigate her family for abuse actually. I knew to play dead/hide from my dad by the age of 3. It's not generally innate knowledge.

so sorry for your experiences. abuse of any kind should be intolerable!

I kind of doubt abuse is the case here, it is a possibility out of numerous, a few of which are probably more likely.

In all likelihood she didn't act as she did out of intelligence, but rather she went straight down upon hearing a loud noise (gunfire towards a different part of the classroom). Multiple other bodies landed over or at least around her, and shock combined with a biological reaction caused her to be still.

When one considers that first graders (6 years old) spend large portions of classes on the floor the idea of bodies landing on her is highly likely.

Let's not jump to conclusions and put more stress on a family that is terrified their daughter will never alright mentally again, and feels guilty for feeling good their daughter is alive while so many people they know's children are dead.

A terrified child or adult even sometimes cannot move for an extended length of time. Their bodies freeze making it impossible for them to move or run.

No little child should go through this.

While I completely agree with you Gossamer, it is sad that in parts of Africa and the middle east that have political violence there are children that go through this regularly.

So Sandy, it appears that you do not believe in God, but you do believe in hell! Interesting!

Sandy, maybe you could try to be a bit more tolerant of others now. I too was struck by the remark that it was Divine Intervention that saved that child, if so, were the others not part of God's plan to save. Be that as it may. this is a time to support each other not to denigrate one another. this is a time for everyone to come to the table to end this violence. for many people, there is comfort in a belief in a Higher Power.

Laura, I never said I believed in hell you made that assumption out of thin air.

for ever dem, I am mad because that Solomon character is being an opportunistic jerk trying to capitalize upon that brave little girl. He is USING HER bravery to try and bolster himself, his church and his religion. It is disgusting.

Quoted from you Sandy, "If god was involved then why the hell didn't this mythical being..." You are attempting to bolster your lack of faith in anything every bit as much as you accuse Solomon in bolstering his religion. Yet you feel the right to call Solomon "disgusting."

Laura, one difference. The minister is speaking from a position of authority whereas Sandy is speaking as an individual. Sandy is correct. Religion needs to give us all abreak on the propaganda.

Wow Sandy. You have an anger problem for sure. This post is about the sadness of the situation, not a chance to sell your anti God platform. If you don't have an answer or something positive to say, say nothing.

Laura, stop your damn judging!!! That's what a lot of so-called Christians do well...JUDGE!!! You are atypical modern Pharisee!!! I'm sure you know who they were...the religious pious people who murdered Jesus! If, in fact, your god allowed the others to be unmercifully massacred like cattle in a pen, then that makes your god as much a monster as the killer. It is people like you who need to shut their pie whole because you make anything that has credibility to religion secondary at best to the outrageous comments people like you make!

As for you Rob....according to your "logic" God aborts millions of "babies" (fetuses) in any given menstrual period. Your a joke. You can shut your pie whole as well. You make a mockery out of any reasonable spiritual belief system.

rob, what if the shooter had been aborted? just a thought.

You're pathetic Sandy. These people come together to cope with tragedy, and you use what they say to spew hate on religion. Im glad not all atheists are as close minded and hateful as you.

Rob - or the millions of babies that die in kleenex or socks, from men masturbating.

right?

What a clever little girl. I can't imagine what it will be like for her growing up. I almost hope the trauma gives her the blessin gof amnesia, she is young enough. I can't imagine the night terrors she will have the rest of her life if she doesn't.

It seems as though Sandy is on a mission to be right about what she believes, then to have sympathy for others grieving.

Yeah, Sandy I have to belive that you must know everything there is to know, just as you bash those who belive in God, where is your proof that he dosen't exsist? why because he didn't save all of those lives? Did you read the one post that mentions God sees life on both sides of the veil, so if you see both life before and after what would be your fear? he loved us so that he sacraficed his only son. You may want to look at things from bith sides and not just one side.

John Adams "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

this cracks me up!

I guess moral and religious people dont find any issue with slaughtering off the natives (aka manifesting destiny), enslaving the rest on reservations...shipping in slaves that will actually work (unlike those lazy natives) and kindly calling them 3/5th human in said constitution.

well, those moral and religious people - thankfully - didnt set the bar too high.

The shooter didn't truly believe in God either. If so, he never would have done it. Just saying.

Yes, ConcernedByStupidity, those who believe in God never would have done this. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

Morton- there is a big diffence between true Christians, and those who do selfish things useing Chritianity as a banner to hide behind.

Let people pray to an f'in door knob if they want to. Everyone needs to get off their soapboxes and just let people heal!!! My friend lost her little cousin in this tragedy. Would like to tell her family right now that god doesn't exsist or would you just give people a break to pray or worship however they see fit.

R.I.P to the ones we lost

CT Stay Strong

People spewing hate. I heard the westboro baptist church is recruiting go join them cause all of you people spewing hate are the same as these idiots (WBC). Keep your views to your self and stop spreading hatred.

Jessica, sperm are haploids. So you are not correct.

Peoplenowadays- your post makes it sound like the hatred is being only spewed by Christians? I see people critisizing the friends and family for trying to find solace the only way they can. I guess your okay with that???

Sandy, don't let the hateful Christians get you down.

JB -- I think Sandy's point, aggressive as it may have been, is that this is not the time to interject Pro-God propaganda either. I understand a Christian's need to bring faith and prayer to such an event, but such a statement about divine intervention is hard to imagine as anything more than melodramatic in the worst of the reality TV generation's terms. If he did not know that his statement would be a stab in the already ailing hearts of the parents of non-survivors, then he really has no business preaching anything to any people.

Jessica, What about the millions (one egg per time of the month times how many women menstruate in the world)of babies you women lose every time you menstruate in to your pads tampons or rolled up toilet paper. If your egg dont get fertilized it is then washed out with the blood when you menstruate. So don't blame only us guys you man hater.

Ok the whole mentral abortion is just dumb. Until the egg is firtilized it in no way can ever become a child it is just an egg. Same with male ejaculation. Now mix the two and get the egg fertilized then you have an abortion. Second thing. The way I understand it the preacher is the child's preacher so he is not just some dude drumming up business he is thanking a God that both him and this child believe in for her safe delivery. How has this in any way harmed any of you? I imagine he has also prayed for the 27 or 28 souls who have passed. He is a preacher that is kinda what he does. Third I haven't seen anyone getting yelled at for using this event to further thier gun control propaganda.

Allislost, I was making a rhetorical statement in reply to what jessica was saying.

people, sperm and egg alone is not a human being. Only after fertilization, so I think there's a diff

allislost. that's not even true. what about miscarriages? those are fertilized eggs. are those abortions? also fertilized eggs can be menstruated. if the egg doesn't attach to the uteran wall then it is discarded through menstruation- eggs are not discarded simply because they are unfertilized.

I try not to comment on religious debates because I find atheists and theists to be equally annoying (I'm a Pyrrhonist, if you actually know what that is I applaud you), but I am truly concerned by the stupidity concernedbystupidy presented. There are few people who are more true christrians than Torchemada. He was famous for his incorruptible belief in Christianity as the one true faith, and his untempered hatred of people who claimed to be Christians when they actually only used the moniker as a way of gaining advantages.

Being Christian and being a moral person are not the same thing. I am not stating they are mutually exclusive, as some Christians have been truly good people, but they are certainly not the same thing. Plenty of people follow the tenets of Christianity based on a specific interpretation (PS I have read the Torah, Tanakh, Gospels, King James translation, Quran with two translations, as well as plenty of Abrahamic secondary texts) and would not be considered moral people by any universal theory (God command moral theory is not universal in accordance with meta-ethical procedure). Likewise, plenty of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, atheists and even modern Stoics do qualify under a wide variety of universal theories.

As someone that could be classified as 'mentally disturbed' how do you propose that the world monitors me? I am highly functional, well-maintained, and self-sufficient...I've already (legally) lost the right to ever own a firearm, without a doctor's note there are certain activities I am precluded from doing...so what other 'rights' and 'liberties' as well as losing my freedom do you suppose should be imposed on me?

what does mentally disturbed mean? people prescribed antidepressants? who see a shrink? people afraid of the dark? people afraid of heights? there are a million mental disorders.where does the line from sane to insane lie? and who says that is where the line is? you cant label it, you cant monitor it.

Umm, Stang, perhaps the point wasn't to pick on you personally...did you think this comment was directed at you? The point is that if any family member or friend is in need of counseling or further help the time to do it isn't after s/he hurts someone, including him/herself. If I become very depressed or so angry or unreasonable, paranoid, or delusional that my family worried for my safety I would hope they would monitor me, and if I had a history of any disorder or tendency to harm anyone or become impulsive or delusional I hope they would be monitoring me to whatever degree was needed to keep us all safe.

Perhaps you don't need intense monitoring and that is awesome, but I'm glad to hear you have a doctor whom you hopefully see as recommended and follow her/his advice appropriately. Who said anyone was going to take your freedom? You seem to be already monitored...if you went in and your doctor saw you were having difficulties wouldn't s/he try to monitor you more intensely and help you stay healthy? Where did you get the idea anyone was going to take your freedom? I personally would rather be monitored than find myself with blood on my hands, and that is all I got from savior's post. Many people who need help don't get it, don't get monitored well, and have family members with guns in the home even if they don't have them. I don't think anyone was referring to you personally or inferring that all people with illness should be totally restricted in life.

@ram

I guess my point was more along the lines of already having lost the right/freedom to bear arms, fine..understandable, warranted...not per se. As for other freedoms, maybe I had this mental picture of monitoring devices, I did not think of counseling/psychotherapy as a form of monitoring. It seemed that savoir had a broad brush of 'monitoring the mentally disturbed' that I objected to. What happens in my life doesn't necessarily need to be monitored, and likewise with many others like me.

I agree gun laws need to be tightened, but guns are not to blame.

Did you read about the Chinese guy that stabbed 20+ children on Friday also? This has been the third or fouth time this has happened this year. Should we ban knives to? Hammers? Both were used by mass killers on school children this year. China has very strict gun laws.

I think we all can assume that there are people who knew this guy, and after it happened said "yeah, im not shocked".

and then i look at people in my own life and there's only one person I can say that about, my spouses mom. she's bipolar, and when not no her meds...hard to say what she's capable of.

that doesnt mean I think she WOULD do it...odds are she never would.

but it takes that one time, when a series of things line up - and the person just SNAPS.

and how can I beyond a doubt say those events wont line up at just the wrong time, and my fear comes true?

I cant.

yet, how could i lock someone up on my fear?

how can we be the land of the free, if we are just locking up people we "think" "might" be capable of something awful?

and then who's to say the people we dont lock up, wont be the ones to do it anyway?

Concerned - but the thing you left out is that those victims, all survived.

call me crazy, but id rather heal 20 stabbed and scarred children...

than to bury them.

but maybe you disagree?

Savoir this is the problem. We all see that something needs to be done. This stuff is happening more and more frequently and seem as though they are trying to out do each other. The problem is what to do. The obvious one is gun control. Remove the guns, but I believe prohibition and our War On Drugs have proven beyond a doubt that a ban no matter how strick will fail. Also on the gun control there are every year people who use guns to protect themselves from rape, assault and murder. You have now made victims out of them. Monitor the Mentally Ill. This also sounds great till you finish thinking it through. Say you draw a line somewhere that says ok if you are this mentally ill we are going to take away your gun rights, your drivers license and what ever else that makes us feel safe. If you do this then fewer mentally ill people will seek the help that they so desperately need. If either of these where implimented today it would take years to get them set up properly and even longer to see if they are giving positive results. I think something that we could do that sounds bad, but is both easier to achieve and would show results right away would be post a cop or some type of law enforcement officer at the schools. This would be expensive, but I think if gun men knew that there was an armed Officer in the school they would not target the schools ( you are left with the fact that they will target somewhere else, but it would at least protect our schools) A couple big things here though 1. You cannot hire some idiot off the street and call him a cop. I am talking someone who goes through the same training as a trooper. (or even a retired trooper). 2. The officer could also be used as a support staff to help mentor children that are getting in trouble (basically schools have hundreds of places that a second set of hands could be used. Don't think of it as some fat cop getting paid to eat donuts)

The Hope of having an Officer in the schools would not be to have a shoot out at high noon, but the knowledge that there is an armed person in the school would hopefully deter shooters from schools.

I don't know the best answer and many of you probably see the flaw in my plans, but what we need is plans not name calling and bickering like a bunch of 2 year olds.

I also really like the idea of erasing anybody that commits a crime like this. Thier name cannot be published, all of thier online accountes erased, Name taken off all records, body thrown in an incinerator with no grave stone to show they ever existed. If they feel like they where invisible in life. Make it understood that if they do something like this we will make it like they never existed.

Allislost:

I have no intentions of bashing you at all, but I do disagree. I do not believe that an armed officer in the schools would act as a deterent to a person such as this murderer. For some reason, he elected to return to the school he once attended, and do what he did. I do not believe that the presence of an officer would have changed his reasoning, nor stopped his attempt. I do not believe that he had the mental capacity to engage in that level of higher intellectual contemplation, otherwise, I believe that he would have worked out to the logical conclusion that his course of action was wrong and have not committed this crime.

As far as making his existance a non-existance. I am all for it. I believe that we far too often either deliberately, or inadvertantly, glorify these scum sucking bottom feeders. Strike their names from all written records, and make the utterance of their names a crime. So let it be written...so let it be done.

Actually, I think an armed person (that the public is aware exists) in the schools WOULD have stopped even this obviously ill person. First, he was obviously NOT so ill he didn't have the capacity to learn how to use the gun (with his also SERIOUSLY ill Mom's help). Second, he chose to bypass his 'more recently attended high school' to continue on to the elementary school. We 'supposedly' don't know why, but I have an idea. It's been proven he was so withdrawn he would cower against the walls in the halls of the high school when other came near, and a number of other 'tendencies' he had (to save time and space here). SO....I personally think he wasn't as 'mentally impaired' as many think. He chose to bypass the high school (IMHO) because TOO MANY bigger, tougher people there would have attempted to stop him, and he wouldn't have gotten nearly the attention (I also believe he was seeking) that the killing of so many defenseless children has now garnered him. JUST LOOK AT THE RESULTS. "He KNEW" the WHOLE WORLD would now know him. (Of course he was 'sick' to think this way, if this is how it went in his head as I'm proposing here, but that is what mental illness is, a sickness) He was considered by some to be nearly genius. We all have heard about the fine line between genius and insanity. Apparently, this young man walked that line everyday, and one day stepped over and couldn't (or wouldn't) step back.

Really? You found the time to make such comment at this point?

And those were nice words to read ABCXYZ2, even if John found them to be discusting.

"Play dead" or "play possum" is very ancient reflex widely used by many animals including insects. By luck, she had time to react. In respect to parents of killed children I would not distinguish this lucky (and smart) girl from other kids as "special" whatever people are believing or not believing in. I'd be simply happy for her (and I am).

Yea! Thanks super invisible God daddy for saving this girl!

Oh..watch your step on the way out. Wouldn't want you to trip over the bullet-riddled child corpses littering the floor.....oh uh....

...God is great n stuff!!!

I find it so incredibly sad that so many get on here to argue their faith or lack thereof. I lost my youngest son 3 yrs ago and my mother 3 days before. And I will NEVER be the same. I have been a Christian for over 40 years and I felt that I had been betrayed...My mind swirled in darkness and despair. The grief and pain never leaves when you lose a child. And my heart aches for all these children and teachers and the families left behind. However I still find my hope and only peace through Jesus Christ who is our salvation. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not yet seen. It would not be faith if we could see and prove everything. I will not argue with those who do not believe but I do speak of my faith because it may comfort and help others. I know first hand how traumatizing it is to lose a child but all these arguments on who is right or wrong helps no one. Do so few have compassion for those hurting? I thank God for the time I had with my child but it is pointless to be angry or rebellious because it won't bring him back... And none of us know the future. Perhaps there is a reason for my loss. Perhaps not. There is so much evil in the world and those who do not know Him are not going to be listening to Him. But I still believe God is good and loving - it is not easy, by any means but my faith gives me the strength to struggle on in this world. And I have found that my pain helps me to understand others so much better - believers or not. I understand how hard it is. I have many friends who do not believe as I do but we are close in that we all understand how hard it is to lose a child. And that binds us together in love and support. I just wish there were more that would offer their support for these families instead of arguing who is right or wrong in their beliefs.

Hi Sadmoma,

Sorry for your losses. I think 'most' of these people actually do feel deep sorrow, shock and pain from this. That is why the 'arguments' are so fierce. The 'pro-God/no-God' fight has gone on forever, and it's events like these that really crank up the battle. It's the same with the wars we wage. Some think it's heinous and some think it's righteous. Using nearly the identical arguments we're hearing here.

And, as unfortunate as it is, because of the deep divide this whole god/no god situation is; we HAVE to have this debate. Than we can finally get past this and start to think as rational human beings and solve some of these daunting problems. Also unfortunately, there are 'many' in many different religious communities who will fight to the death their beliefs in their gods, and are more than willing to kill any others who do not. And we also have to deal with that.

As far as my personal beliefs...I don't really see how humans (as compared to the rest of the animal kingdom), AND the rest of the animal kingdom, and the Universe; could have just 'happened' through natural selection or chance. I personally believe there HAS to be (my belief mind u) some sort of 'intelligent design' (call it God if you prefer) behind it all 'at it's inception'. I don't, however; believe he/she/it is sitting around watching all this mayhem and allowing it to go on.

As a very powerful individual once told me, God is dead. I mulled that one over for nearly 40 years now and have come to somewhat of a conclusion on that one. WE, humanity, hold the last vestiges of this 'God' within, and everyday is a battle between choosing to 'do as a benevolent God' would do each day, or worship at the mantle of Mammon (materialism), You either choose to 'do good unto others' or choose to be self indulgent and not care about anyone other than yourself. We CAN look out for others and ourselves, but at some point self interest steps over the line into greed. (In my opinion).

I have found much wisdom in the Bible (the book I was haphazardly raised up being taught), as well as some of the most heinous events imaginable, supposedly at the hands or direction of God. There appears to be ample proof that many of the 'main' themes of the bible were 'ripped off' from earlier 'main themes' from earlier belief systems and/or religions. I can also see the argument for US being put here as an experiment (it's not working out too well and the 'scientists' who started this experiment have long ago abandoned the lab) and recently came across a very good video that makes a strong argument for the sudden appearance (relatively) of the 'advanced race' (I use that term loosely) that we are, or have become, as being attributable to some 'other worldly' creation. IE: not from this world, or alien(s) if you will. Unfortunately for the ones who will claim this last statement means a 'god', that wasn't the point of the video. The point was based on some pretty compelling 'scientific' evidences that were presented and had nothing to do with a god.

We must continue to have this debate until we at least learn to love and care for one another, regardless of our personal beliefs in a god/no god status.

It must be said though, to claim this event was guided by, interrupted by or 'the will of' some all-knowing being called God, is an abdication of (whoever claims this) their responsibility to act as the 'intelligent beings' we're supposed to be and come up with meaningful solutions to all the problems that the world faces today. And please don't hand me (not you personally Sadmoma) the line that 'we can't know his plans' or 'God works in mysterious ways' crap.

If there is a plan I'll be happy to tell you what it is. It's to get our sh*t together, stop fighting with one another, stop the lying (the seed, in my mind, of all evil) to ourselves and each other. No more lying means no more stealing, no more cheating, or killing, etc.

Unfortunately, I also believe there are MANY powerful and/or wealthy interests that want and prefer the world the way it is. They actively pursue the goals of mass confusion and mayhem, as that is what they profit from.

As far as there concerned ('God' forbid) they don't want us to learn WE are the gods after all. Then the many charades that pass for knowledge and wisdom will be done, and we will no longer be able to be controlled by special interests.

Ok, a little levity here.

(Caution: sarcasm ahead) But, maybe God had some pressing engagements on the other side of the universe, and when he/she/it gets back and see's what we've done to the garden, someone's getting their ass kicked! I'm just sayin'.

Best wishes for you and yours Sadmoma.

You got that right. Where was God before the killings?

God is mind. And George, God doesn't control those that do evil. They are Godless.

JB excellent!!! But so many just don't get it. Sad!!

Another crusading atheist using a tragedy to spew there hate. Pathetic

@ JB

Wait god is mind?? So God told this smart Girl to play dead, but could not tell the Killer to stop killing....wow talk about being all mighty.

Mr. Burns, if you're going to be that guy, you could at least come up with something original ,and not something that is verbatim the same sentiment , literally two threads up. Also, 'their' hate. I'm just another spelling nazi using a spelling tragedy to spew my hatred of self-righteous people making spelling mistakes.

Maybe (s)he was on a potty break..? What I still can't get my head around is.. why did (s)he allow that asteroid to wipe out all the dinosaurs?

And who do you suppose gave her that intelligence?

Its pathetic to use tragedy to spew hate on religion.

Is it pathetic for the preacher to be using this tragedy to push the idea that god saved this child?

Is it also pathetic for this preacher to be torturing the parents of the 20 children who died with the idea that their children were not worthy of being saved?

It was the religious who started this spewing; others are just commenting on it.

And why do others have to comment? Can't anyone be grateful for the fact that she lived and be supportive for the rest? I pray for all concerned but if you are not a believer, can't we at least agree to differ and and offer our condolences and support for the bereaved families?

The others aren't commenting on the trajedy, they all probably feel the same about it. It is a trajedy, I'm glad my children/friend's children were not involved. Indeed, I think that is all they should feel directly about the trajedy. It is unfortunate that the preacher felt the need to use one of the few positive stories to come out of this trajedy as a platform for spreading his religion.

When people speak negatively they are not referring to the trajedy, they are referring to callousness of an opportunist. Any person who attempts to use the trajedy directly in a similarly opportunistic fashion for any belief system should be criticized as well.

If you don't think the preacher should be criticized, then it is only fair (and logical) that you also don't think atheistic opportunists should be criticized. If you don't belief opportunists should be criticized, or if you are illogical in you dislike to only target people who aren't speaking directly to the families of people who's children have been murdered then I pity you more than anything else.

Evidently, Soloman was wrong.

God doesn't control evil doers. They are Godless and have no control.

Evidently, God didn't protect the 26 other victims, either. Were they all evil doers?

These beautiful children are in heaven safe in Jesus' arms and the shooter is in hell with the rest of the murderers.

They should not be in Jesus's arms...they should be in their parents arms.

Who says God didn't intervene for any other children? A lot of children survived that day. Sadly, many were lost as well. I won't even try to explain why God would allow that. I don't know why He would intervene for some and not for all. It doesn't prove that He is capricious or non-existent. That's one way to look at it. Another viewpoint is that His ways are higher than our ways and that one day He will wipe away every tear. I choose to believe the latter...or perhaps God chose me to believe. I wouldn't presume to tell the families of those who were lost what they should think, but I pray that many of them are eventually able to find hope in God, because there is certainly no hope in the theory that it is all just meaningless.

Something that none of you not even the religious people are taking into account is God does not view death as the end. We can cry and scream all we want about it, and it is natural for us to be upset and even pissed. For God this event is more of his children coming home. For God the tragedy is two fold. 1. he lost yet another soul to this world. Andy Lanza is lost from God for ever and will spend eternity separated from the creator. 2. There was a time when we would all pull together and do what we could for one another to get though this terrible day. Yet with our moral corruption; today we all decided to get on the internet and throw venom at each other.

Gus what, he didnt use a machine gun. He used pistols. Maybe more people would listen to you libs if you used facts.

Um, MrBurns he used a military assault rifle. Get your facts straight before you become so smug.

Umm, no. He only used a pistol on himself. He used the Bushmaster AR-15 (sort of like a civilian M-16) on the innocents. However, I won't call you any names to insult your intelligence. I just suggest a little more rigor in your own fact finding.

MrBurns....I am a lib...and I have my facts straight.....maybe thats why we "libs" don't listen to you, you do not know what you are talking about. He used a ASSAULT RIFLE on those kids...the pistol only came in to play when the madman killed himself.

This little one was very lucky and very smart to pretend she was dead. I feel so bad for her knowing what kind of nightmares she will suffer.

"or blessed by the hand of God"

"save the theology for another page"

Do you know what cognitive dissonance is?

Do you know what cognitive dissonance is?

There is a lot of that going around. I'm not immune.

Its going to take a hell of a lot more God's grace to help this poor child survive what she has been through.

While you are praying to your god could you also as it why it allowed the others to die? If your god can save this one child but allow the others to die then this is not a god for me.

No one can know exactly why this child was spared but to blame God is foolishness. I used to think that as a Christian, my children were protected by God's grace and love. However my son died very suddenly 3 yrs ago from a 'superbug'. As long as there is evil in this world, people of all ages will suffer. I do struggle with this but I cannot and will not assume that I know the answers. But I do believe that God can give peace, even in such things as this. How does anyone know if any of these families were believers or not? At any rate, to rant about our own beliefs does not help anyone. I hope that more people will be supportive in every way for those who are grieving. And this pastor was speaking only of this child that he knew, I don't believe he meant to hurt anyone in his statement.

Whatever works for parents and coping, I respect that, I dont think they are seeking answers on this board.

The comments were for the story. I think if this pastor used this in his Sunday service and my child was one of those who is now dead, I would find it offensive and then ask why God TOOK my child.

- There isn't any legitimate answer to be given as to why some divine entity spared one life yet allowed 20 others to die. The more people look to God for answers, more draw these conclusions in a secular way. They need something real to help them.

Prayer vigils are always packed after incidents like this. But are you to tell me that all of the prayers the people send out everyday asking that are loved ones be safe are not heard PRIOR to these things happening? Are you saying that we are supposed to turn to God for comfort after these events, but not expect our faith in him and prayers to him and worship to him to get him to prevent things like this.

You want to know why people who don't believe in God are so quick to put down others? Because you people are so quick to put religion into God into place he never is. I would dare someone to say that one child was spared because of divine intervention, when my child is lying dead. Do you know how cruel and asinine that sounds from a so called all powerful being? Or even the president's comment that "God called the home." Are you saying that you believe in a being so cruel and benevolent that he would actually take 20 young children in such a horrific manner because of his "plan" or he "needed another angel." We get upset because you have no idea how idiotic and downright crazy and cruel that sounds. Church vigils are packed because people want ANSWERS. People want to know what "God" could have possibly had planned to allow something like this to happen. People want to know what they have been praying and worshiping for all this time if at the moment that the innocent children needed him, he was absent.

You are living in a fantasy world if you think for a minute that all of those people were there because of there "faith" in God. They were there because they have nothing else but a false hope that they must now cling to. People turn to religion in time of need because the have nothing else. They turn away from it, because they realize religion is nothing more than a hope that has yet to be realized.

People like me get so fed up with religion because it takes time away from addressing the real issues. It tries to mask what is actually wrong with people by blaming the devil, and then it tries to credit God for the selfless acts of these heroes or the quick thinking of a small girl. I pose this question to you... If we are all responsible for both the good and the bad that befalls us...why do you not hold your God accountable for both the good and bad that occurs on his watch? If God is so good that why has he continued to let bad things occur in his name. It amazes me how quick you religious fanatics are to stand up for an all powerful being and give him undeserved praise, when he has yet to do that for himself.

People like me are so quick to put religion down, because people like you are so quick to lift it up even in the most horrific situations, such as this, where God was simply non existent. If you want to praise anyone, praise the first responders and policemen, and troopers whose arrival put a halt to further shootings. Apparently it was they who had to be God that day.

meggers12 - I think you answered my questions AND proved my point.

Its because they are insecure and angry.

When tragedy strikes, everyone wants "answers". Sometimes there are none.

Let these people grieve and find whatever comfort they can.

God did not take anyone's child, Satan did.

Shoe Diva- I guess my question to you would be, if your faith is so strong, why does it bother you so much that I have none. It doesn't make anyone less of a person for not believing in "God." And it certainly does not make this tragedy any less real or hurtful to those who do not believe.

Mr Burns- You are right, it is because we are angry. I think you would find that many of those parents are angry and insecure. That's what happens when your faith is shattered. It is much easier for those who have their loved ones with them to find solace in "God," then it is for those who have had their little ones taken. I would also imagine that many of those who seek religion are insecure. After all, they are just looking for something to believe in.

meggers12

Because they equate atheism with immorality and hopelessness. Time and time again.

In times like this, they need someone to blame. It must be those damn atheists, they say. Corrupting our society, they say. The truth is that Mr. Burns and his ilk hold much of the same anger towards us. There have been a number of comments made by his kind in a multitude of articles about this tragedy. Guess what they try to argue? But that's not hate. Not at all. /sarcasm

I'm glad that more are confronting the false notion of supernatural beings or interventions. Of any kind. It's time to move on from mysticism and myth. It's time to move out of the temples and churches that claim secularism is at fault for such events. Manipulation is rampant among believers.

To say that it is hate that motivates atheists, while believers have already begun spewing lies and misinformation regarding shootings like this, is abominable. To them, they are the only ones with good intentions and any challenge to the contrary is viewed as "hate". This is the fundamental problem. That's why we're here and why we will continue to comment on this vine.

CalvinOR and meggers12: I never said I believed in God. You read that into my comment because I was questioning why people who don't believe in God always seem to have the need to put down those who do.

shoediva2000

Well, I hope I answered your question sufficiently. Not a "put down". Just a reference to reality.

CalvinOR:

Without promoting one religion over another, or promoting religion in general, I would say that humans are social animals. Gathering in a church is a natural occurrance. Humans, generally, gather together in times like these to share their grief, and try to lessen its impact through the sharing. If they have a history of attending on a regular basis a certain church, it would be natural for them to share their grief in a familiar environment with friends and family that may attend at the same church. I would be more concerned for someone who regularly attended, but chose not to share their emotions after this kind of event with their church. As for the Pastor, I believe that his choice of words were poor, at best, but had no ill intentions, and, this being a small town, were probably not taken to be offensive by those parents that lost children, buit might be familiar with the Pastor.

BullwinkleMoose

Yes, I can understand why they would want to share. In fact, I've already commented about it in a different article.

The problem is that those very same places of comfort become conduits of misinformation (it's funny, because NBC has already posted an article about this). There are too many people that are convinced that a so-called Godless culture is to blame. Not only is this completely false (most Americans identify as Christian), but it also shifts the conversation away from what really matters - the issue of mental health. It is sickening.

If they want to come together, they don't need a church for that. Nobody does. Simply expressing their grief in a community center, a HS football field, or their own homes would suffice. Religion, spirituality, faith.. whatever you want to call it is unnecessary to reflect on a very human tragedy.

To single out one person after all others were dead and say they were somehow special and the others were not is a slap in the face to the other kids' parents. This is why I am not religious. Just because a child is wiser than average does not mean there was anything divine involved, it just means the girl was smart. But do not knock the other kids saying by she was special and they weren't somehow special since they died. They were ALL special to someone.

Willow no one said those other children were not special. God loves each an every one of them. The preacher man is saying divine intervention saved her. That does not mean that God thought the others unworthy, or even less worthy than the young survivor. The pain we all feel for these lost children is only felt on this side of death. God lives on both sides of death so as devistating to life as death is to us. God does not see it as such. I'm not going to go into it, but I would just like to say that in our belief system what the preacher said in no way diminishes how much God loved those lost nor does it place the survivor above those that died. In our belief system even our Jesus died and he; like these children lives again.

The killer was Godless....no divine wisdom there. Pure evil at work.

Mentally ill MAN at work.

Indeed, if what the pastor said was true then God wanted the rest to die and only felt like sparing one.

JB

Godless

Lies.

Stop distorting/manipulating the events. To say that a lack of belief in a supernatural deity is at fault is utter BS.

Pure evil at work

And what created everything again?

And they cry "free will, free will!"

Sorry, but what you believe to be free will is nothing but an illusion IF an omnipotent, omniscient being exists. You can't separate what happened from your God. You claim that God created everything? Then it follows that everything is attributable to God. Your so called God knows what will happen at all times and in fact created the circumstances which allows human beings to act in such terrible ways.

"But it was Satan!"

Think again. Even if Satan exists, God surely created it, knowing well that the angel would fall. So it was ultimately your God to blame - because again God created everything and knows everything.

"But.. original sin!"

Again, if this was the case, it was all part of the plan. God's plan. See above. You can't have it both ways, dear believers.

But this all assumes such a being exists, which is nonsense anyhow. So back to reality. Another tragedy.. Mourn the victims, debate politics.. ask yourself why, just don't expect an answer you want to hear. People work in mysterious ways.

CalvinOR, you are seeing with the eyes of the world... Others see with the eyes of Faith. None of us knows the mind of God... All you can do is pray and have Faith that God will triumph in the end. God is not responsible for the choices that this person made. We are all given Free Will. Some use it wisely, others do not.

Karen

If you believe in an omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (all knowing), and omnipresent (everywhere at any time) being, then it follows that what you experience as free will is a mere timeline of events that have already been determined. Do you understand this?

Free will cannot be achieved under such circumstances. That was my point.

This is what I get sick and tired of: people making claims about God's great hand being there to protect some, while ignoring the others. Give it a rest. So what was so divine about this child that saved her, and not the others? She was fortunate enough, probably in shock, and did what was inherent in her nature and it worked. Tell the parents of those whose children were lost that their babies weren't divine enough to warrant God's intervention. Enough of the fairy tales and myths. A man had guns and many bullets, he pointed it and shot little children to death. Deal with FACTS for a change! Wringing hands and praying to an invisible God in the sky isn't going to solve this problem and bad habits of reinforcement should have been put to rest centuries ago. After all, that defines insanity perfectly: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

Why does this bother you so much? I am making an educated guess that this comment has more to do with a conflict with your beliefs rather than anything else. Why does a preacher who out of the kindness of his heart and his own beliefs makes a statement that is obviously meant to try and comfort the survivors of this tragedy prompt such a tactless statement from you? Why are you taking such offence? Also, are you not doing the same thing? Can you prove it was not divine that this girl was saved or others died. You may not think that a god who exercises his divine will in such a situation is good god or a god worth worshipping and I would probably agree with you, but do you have the empirical evidence to prove the truth in this situation any more than this pastor has to prove his. Both cannot be proved empirically! The one difference is yours was made out of offence to your personal beliefs and his was made in an attempt (however misguided) to comfort people who do not understand this situation and have to deal with things like survivors guilt.

Karen

If you believe in an omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (all knowing), and omnipresent (everywhere at any time) being, then it follows that what you experience as free will is a mere timeline of events that have already been determined. Do you understand this?

Free will cannot be achieved under such circumstances. That was my point.

It is just as likely that free will cannot be achieved in a wholly naturalistic universe without a god as with an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient god. In fact the debate of knowing if free will exists and if so to what extent has been going on since at least 400BC when Democritus speculated on the existence of atoms and continues on in agnostic, theistic and atheistic realms. There are interesting arguments for and against the existence of free will on all sides of this debate from those who have all different kind of beliefs. Therefore it is a bit naive to believe absolutely that free will cannot exist if an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient god exists.

R.I.P to all the victims of Sandy Hook Elementary, I have started a page to show love to the victims, families, and the community of Newtown, CT. My prayers are with your community!!

Coloradosarge

Therefore it is a bit naive to believe absolutely that free will cannot exist if an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient god exists.

It simply doesn't make sense to say that it does. If everything is known from beginning to end, there is no free will. We experience life events as if there is such a thing; after all I can "choose" an apple or orange, to walk or drive, take a gun and shoot people or not. But this in no way means free will is actually achieved. If a perfect God, in all aspects imaginable, actually exists - then outcomes are fixed.

As to why it bothers us so much, please refer to my comment #22.8.

It does make you wonder is there a god ? So many children are dying , if there was a god this would not be happening. So ask yourself that question and no one has that answer . these childern will be remembered in our hearts. And i refuse to tell my childern that there in heaven because god would not take a child like this in this way. do i belive in god not sure. But i think there is evil in this world and it will never change .

Guns do kill but it is the person behind the gun that does the killing . The gun does not have a brain or can think for its self. Its the evil person that pulls the trigger.

why do we only believe that God only wants to take the old, sick and the evil?? We are here for him to do with us as he pleases. i like to believe that he has a plan for us. Can't god want beautiful little children sitting with him "angels" to help brighten up the heavens a Little more . i lost a child in a tragic accident and it is my belief that i will someday see her again that helps me cope with it.

just sayin !!

Exactly. Do you think that this story could be kept quiet for almost 3 days until Sunday night when the President is speaking? Seems like an opportunity for druming up business for this pastor. Until authorities verify the existence of this child I will view this with the skeptical eye.