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Erik S. Lesser / EPA
Ron Moon, co-owner of CJI Guns in Tucker, Ga., holds a pair of 100-bullet-capacity magazines for an AR15 assault style semi-automatic rifle on Wednesday.
Anticipating staunch resistance from gun-rights groups to any effort to ban assault-style rifles, some pro-gun control lawmakers are instead trying to leverage the national outrage over the school shooting in Newtown, Conn., to enact federal legislation outlawing high-capacity ammunition clips.
House Democrats, emboldened by President Barack Obama's call Wednesday for quick, "concrete” proposals to curb gun violence, are pushing House Republicans to quickly consider a ban on high-capacity clips.
The move follows the massacre of 20 schoolchildren and six adults on Dec. 14 at Sandy Hook Elementary school. The gunman, 20-year-old Adam Lanza carried three guns, primarily using a Bushmaster XM-15 — an AR-15/M4-type rifle -- which police said was fed by 30-round magazines. He also was armed with a Glock 10mm handgun and Sig Sauer 9mm handgun. Although authorities didn't reveal the models of those weapons, both of those handguns allow high-capacity clips -- including 15-round magazines for one model of 10mm handgun that's sold by Glock.
The bill’s list of co-sponsors this week grew from 113 to 135, according to a spokesman for Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, D-N.Y., the measure’s author. In 1993, a man armed with a gun and several 15-round magazines shot and killed McCarthy’s husband, Dennis, aboard a Long Island, N.Y., commuter train. Five others also died and 25 were wounded.
“We've been here before,” McCarty said Wednesday on Capitol Hill. “All too often, we see these mass killings and yet all our lives go on. Everybody is asking: Is this time different? It is ... This time is different because there is so much anger.”
“We can get the job done,” added House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., one of the bill’s co-sponsors. In an interview Tuesday with NBC’s Andrea Mitchell, Pelosi predicted: “Right away we could pass ... the ban on the assault magazine.”
Related:
NRA blames media, music and more for culture of violence
Obama demands 'concrete proposals' on gun violence by January
In the other house of Congress, Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J., is simultaneously pushing for a rapid vote on his almost identical proposal to outlaw the possession, import or sale of any ammunition clip that hold more than 10 rounds, saying: “These high-capacity magazines, which were used in Newtown, Aurora, Tucson, Virginia Tech and so many other tragedies, were designed for one purpose only — to shoot and kill quickly.”
From 1994 to 2004, high-capacity ammunition magazines were illegal as part of the Federal Assault Weapons Ban, but that provision lapsed when the legislation expired. Congressional Democrats have made several attempts to similar legislation barring possession of rapid-fire assault-style weapons since then, but those efforts have failed.
Legislators also have pushed legislation banning specific types of bullets – with one notable success: In 1986, President Ronald Reagan signed legislation that outlawed armor-piercing "cop-killer" bullets.
But other recent ammunition-cutting proposals have failed to gain traction in Congress. Last summer, a bill filed Lautenberg and McCarthy sought to significantly curb the ability of Americans to buy unlimited amounts of ammunition via the Internet. That bill never made it beyond the Senate Judiciary Committee, a spokeswoman for Lautenberg said this week.
So in a country where the right to bear arms is held sacred, firearm foes are refining their pitch to focus on the delivery mechanism. One of their main talking points is asking why such high-capacity clips are necessary.
“I've been a hunter all my life, and there's no reason to have a magazine that holds 30 shells,” said Rep. Mike Thompson, D-Calif. “Call it what it is: an assault magazine. And we don't have any reason to assault anyone in our communities, in our neighborhoods. ... Why do you need 30 shells in a magazine?"
“Who needs these? The answer is sports shooters,” responds Mark Walters, co-author of "Lessons from Armed America" and host of a syndicated radio show “Armed American Radio." “For example, if you were target shooting or practicing for an upcoming (shooting competition), it’s nice not to have to change magazines on a regular continual basis."
In the wake of the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, the National Rifle Association held a news conference in Washington, D.C, on Friday and blamed the media and video games for cultivating a culture of violence.
What’s more, many ranchers use firearms like AR15s — manufactured to carry 30-round magazines — to protect their herds from coyotes and clear their land of prairie dogs, added George Hill, an employee at Basin Sports in Vernal, Utah.
The talk of banning “assault magazines” emanating from Washington appears to be driving sales of the high-capacity clips, according to Walters and Hill.
“I came in at 8 this morning and I have been non-stop on selling AR15s and ammo. Nonstop,” Hill said Wednesday afternoon. “Those (30-round clips) have been going out, and I’ve been selling those two, three, 10 at a time. Everybody’s worried about the politics behind it and that’s generating a lot of these sales. They’re worried about it being banned.
“I would be real happy to only sell Benelli goose-hunting guns and Browning deer rifles. And that’s normally what we sell this time of year. But the politics has super-heated the tactical market. Normally, I sell somebody 50 rounds, maybe 100 pounds. Instead, I’m selling them 500 or 1,000 rounds.”
While Walters and Hill each oppose the proposed ban on high-capacity clips in principle, they argued as well that such a crackdown won’t slow gun violence in this country.
“This is all symbolic legislation that will do nothing. Absolutely nothing. If I could say something different, I would admit that,” Walters said. “But the facts don’t bear that out. It’s just feel-good legislation being backed into a horrible event.”
They note that gun ownership has increased over the past decade, with the number of instant criminal background checks conducted by retailers required by federal law rising each year. In November alone, more than 2 million such point-of-sale investigations were performed nationally on people seeking to purchase firearms — the most in any single month since federal officials launched the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) in 1998, according to the FBI. By comparison, gun retailers and federal authorities completed 842,932 background checks in November 2003.
“There are millions of rounds of ammunition already in the public’s hands — high-capacity or standard-capacity magazines already in the public's hands,” Walters said. “If they pass this ban, in the days prior to the date (it goes into effect), stores will sell 10 years’ worth of these capacity magazines.
“But beyond that, it’s irrelevant. A seasoned, experienced firearms enthusiast, including myself, can change a magazine out, including a tactical reload, in under a second,” Walters said.
Moreover, such ammunition doesn’t degrade over time, he added.
“It’s a plastic magazine with a spring. Magpul (based in Erie, Colo.) makes the most popular 30-round magazines, PMAGs, which are selling for $13.99,” Walters said. “I have five of them being reserved at my store because they’re selling like crazy. I know I could keep them in my safe forever. I can open it in 20 years, take it out of the plastic bag, and if I want to use it, I can use it.”
Any federal ammo ban — or mandated purchase limits on certain clips or bullets — would simply create an “underground market,” Hill said. Today, scores of gun enthusiasts — including many hunters — make their own bullets as a hobby. They’re called “reloaders.”
“People have been making ammunition themselves since the 1880s. That’s something anybody is capable of doing with a little bit of know-how,” Hill said. "Those kinds of bans are like throwing a steak on the grill for like 10 seconds and calling it cooked. It just looks like it’s cooked but it’s not.
“You can reload. Or, you can order online and get stuff from outside the U.S. It’s too late for any of that,” Hill said. “And it never works.”
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The democrats have left the door wide open for the republicans to take advantage of this situation. While Obama is spending his time policitizing this tragedy and focusing on "gun" violence(I guess to the liberals killing a student with a knife isn't so bad), the republicans should quickly move on items that will really addressing the issues - bullying, paying attention(in a positive way) to those that are less socially capable etc.
Oh, and one more thing - the libs keep saying these ARs are "high powered rifles"... uh NO - again it is their ignorance that these are high VELOCITY rifles however they are only .22 caliber! They are actually too small and underpowered to even be legal to hunt deer or larger game in Colorado.
Story is WRONG!! The Bushmaster AR-15 was left in his car, only the pistols were found next to his body. Very poor reporting and journalism by the national media!!!!
This is true and is shown on video.
But it don't fit the agenda.
How is it that we all know this, but the "media" isn't asking questions about Lanza's alleged Bushmaster rampage, when all that he had with him were handguns when he died??????????????????
A group in this instance the NRA tries to fight to uphold our Constitutional Right in the face of a tragedy being used by political elites and 1%ers, and they are condemned
The second amendment is a CIVIL LIBERTY
not for one second should anyone back those in power who try to curtail ANY of our Constitutional Rights.
To trade any of our freedoms for a false moment of safety will leave us with neither.
Since when did LIBERALS feel the Federal Government should provide less rights and not more freedoms?
shame on you "progressives"
women should have the right to chose
gays the right to marry who they wish
and ALL Americans the right to bare arms and freedom speech
I don't think we should ban guns. People love their gun collections, and the NRA folks are correct, we have a right to bear arms. We just don't have the right to kill people. Guns don't kill people, bullets do. So how about we start taxing bullets? I mean really taxing them. If a single bullet costs $100, I'm going to think it's a small price to pay to stop the fool who just broke into my house - but I won't be keeping a lot of ammo around and I'll make sure it's locked up with other valuables. Think of the tax revenues - maybe enough to start taking down the deficit? And we could make people sign for the bullets... I know that sounds radical, but I have to sign my name and show ID to buy cold medicine. So the precedent has already been set.
Don't quit your day job.
We should ban ski's. Think of all the people that are injured or killed each year by skiing. Or just make the tickets prices $1000 per day, they no one can afford to ski and nobody will be killed or hurt by skiing.
JD
I hope your comments were meant to be sarcastic, if not, your post wins the "most assinine post" of the day award.
The only outrage is from the media who is lying about what happened from the get go.
The rifle was in the car.
Dear MSN, please, please PLEASE keep saying "clip" when you mean "magazine." We certainly wouldn't want or expect you to actually learn what you are pontificating, er, I mean reporting, about.
Accidental death by gun, tragic.
Murder by gun, evil.
Blaming the gun instead of the person shooting it, idiotic.
There are two kinds of people in this country concerning laws to protect citizens: law abiding citizens and criminals who ignore laws.
When you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns; they steal guns instead of buying them because that is what outlaws do.. Traffic accidents kill more people yearly than guns do but no one wants to outlaw cars.
As a 35 year educator in public schools I have seen an increase in the number number of students who constantly cause trouble in school: disrupting class so teacher cannot even teach, gangs, fights, disrespect for all authority, guns and knives brought to school, belligerent students and parents, sex in unoccupied areas of school. Fortunately these people usually represent about 10% of the student population.
If you haven't been in public school in the last 10-15 years during the school day you would be shocked by what goes on in many buildings in spite of the faculty's best efforts to do their job. Watch the video games kids play. One popular one is of outlaws killing police officers in the city. Movies with extreme violence (Scarface) and sexual themes.
When the 10 Commandents were "removed from schools" so was respect, morals, and values for others. LaPierre may have his own agenda but he makes good points. There were many days at school that I thanked God we had a police officer on duty!
you people voted him back in...now big brudda comin' ta get ya with all his liberal demoncrat minions foaming at the mouth to disarm amerika. maybe if the liberals and aclu lawyers in the mid 70's who began the dismantling of the mental healthcare sysyem would of had a plan in place to help the mentally ill you'd see a lot less of this.keep giving up your freedoms amerika and see whats next...
A simple point of information is that based on the article the weapons noted are typical of Law Enforcement or similar to those used to protect us all. So apparently when 30 shot magazines are outlawed will the police be restricted. This would put more Law Enforcement personnel in danger. If I need police protection I don't want them to be outgunned as they are in many instances.
If I want to buy an AR-15 and can only get 10 shot magazines then do I just buy three times the number. Again I don't want any of you armed. Then I will be safe from you and will still be ready to respond to you shoul you decide that what I own should be shared.
Besides the higher volume magazines are usually sold out or on back order. So much for Barry's new America.
GBA
ummm... a 30 round clip ia normal for an AR15 or M4, BECAUSE the cartridge is a low power rifle cartridge. a .308 or 30-06 would normally have a 20 round clip. The 5.56/.223 is usually requires multiple rounds. You cannot hunt deer in most states with it because it is not considered lethal enough. The round is also shorter range (effective only to 350-400 yds).
It is not the AR15. Compare that to a Ruger Mini14. One is considered an assult weapon the other not, even though they are functionally the same.
This is what happens when you have idiots deciding gun issues that are clueless.
The 15 round magazine is fairly standard for 9mm... I don't think you could find a pistol today that doesn't hold 8-16 rds.
The size of a magazine makes little difference. They change out very fast. A little training and you should be able to do it within 1-2 seconds. So that is not the answer either.
The problem is not the firearms, the problem is all the insane and criminals out there that ignore gun laws. CT had an assault weapon ban already. It was illegal to bring a gun on school property. Guns are not the problem. The police have them, and rarely is there a problem. We need to lock up the insane, inspite of what the DEMOCRATS want.
Check out Obamaville (Chicago). Guns have been illegal there for a half century. They are the murder capital of the USA. This weeks gun death betting over/under betting line is 7.5 this weekend, Merry Christmas!
When seconds count, and your life is on the line, police are but minutes away... Remember that, and stay out of Obamaville...
I own an AR-15 and I have a 30 round magazine (NOT "clip") for it. I guess that makes me a murderer too.
My wife smokes. She owns matches. I guess that makes her an arsonist.
We must stop arson. BAN MATCHES!!
Only similarity is they share a caliber, and are gas operated. The M-16/M-16 variants are a Stoner design, the Mini-14 is a modified Garrand design, there is a big difference in how they function, like saying a Browning design is the same as a Colt design.
@ Mirage-4062086
Gotta like the AR 10, with any normal capacity mag (10, 20, 30) it makes for a great varmint gun, and you can hunt deer with a 308. When hunting a couple of 10 round mags makes an easy carry (don't have the big banana catching on brush) if you go deep into the woods, hunting with a 100 round mag IMO would get tiresome to be lugging around all day. Those silly 50 and 100 round mags for an AR are IMO Hollywood props as the are more likely to jam. Anyone who shoots regularly knows a jam takes much longer to clear than changing out a empty mag.
Merry Christmas everyone.
How do Lautenburg and Feinstein feel about high capacity magazines in Israel?
That's OK.
but we don't need them.
I love the sensationalist tagline under the photo.
"Assault Style"
It is cosmetics. There is nothing in the looks (style) of a weapon that makes it more powerful or dangerous.
I will agree that there is no need for large capacity magazines. But guess what? It takes less than 5 seconds to switch out an empty normal capacity magazine for another loaded normal capacity magazine. Those same unarmed, unprotected people that have fallen to the ground in fear aren't going to get up in those 5 seconds and somehow magically fight back.
But a properly licensed concealed carry gun owner could definitely rise up and shoot the criminal in those 5 seconds.
Why do all the mass killings take place only in places where law abiding citizens are not permitted to carry their legally licensed weapons?
Even in the ready room on Ft. Hood soldiers weren't allowed to carry weapons. That's how Hasan was able to kill on a military base. It was only two regular cops that were armed in that area and able to defend themselves.
Tell you what. When Obama bans guns I want to see the Secret Service stop carrying guns. There should be no need for them to carry them right? How about it Mr. President.
The issue is that shootings don't just happen at schools. Shootings occur at movie theaters; do we need armed police at movie theaters? Shootings happen at malls; do we need armed police officers at all malls? Legendary guitar player Dimebag Darrell was murdered onstage at a Damageplan concert by Nathan Gale - who was kicked out of the Marines for being MENTALLY unstable; so do we need armed police officers at all concerts? By the NRA logic, we need armed police officers everywhere that shootings occur - which is EVERYWHERE. So do we need armed police officers everywhere? I'd rather ban assault weapons and start having severe penalties for mere possession of illegal firearms than live in some insane police state where you cannot turn a corner without seeing another police officer.
Let's make the White House a gun free zone with no weapons at all permitted not even by the Secret Service. Obama and wife Michelle will agree to that right?
Daniel
The Israeiis do this. They have armed military in all places where large crowds are. There are metal detectors at the entrances of most markets, theaters, malls, etc. Granted they have a lot more to worry about, but the point is, they do have a large armed public presence.
DanielS007
Excellent question.
Do you feel safer (better yet, are you actually safer?) when you are at the police station or airport security lines where armed officers are there who can respond in the seconds to a public threat?
Adding a uniformed and properly armed guard at schools, malls, theaters, etc., would be a fantastic job creation tool, and would boost tax revenue through the onboarding of these new officers. Sounds like a win-win situation to me!
If the public does not support this option, what is the next best thing? Pass laws to ban guns and trust it will work? The laws against murder, rape, stealing, speeding, etc., have little effect on those who want to perform the illegal action, regardless of the legality of the action. Why would we believe that banning guns or any part of the gun (ie. "clips") would work this time? What am I missing here, why would banning guns be any different from the other laws that ban actions or possession of illegal items we have today?
I'll offer an alternative. Let's allow people to apply for permission, and give them a permit (let's give it an acronym such as CHL or CCW), to carry a weapon out of view from sensitive members of society. This way we know that people (not guns!) have been pre-screened to be safe to carry a weapon for the protection of themselves and their families.
Through the course of time, those who can immediately respond to a threat on either their own life or the life of their family, all will survive our society while those without the same protection, and without an officer immediately available (not "to responding to", but "immediately available to") protect their life will not survive as long.
Personally, I want to survive and prosper, I want my posterity to survive and prosper, and I cannot afford to wait minutes while an officer who is not on site and able to immediately available within seconds to show up.
My apologies if I came across as offensive, but I would like to get your feedback. What are your thoughts?
Chuckzul, you will not like the gun laws in Israel. Unless you are in the military or registered security force, you are restricted to your sidearm and a limited amount of ammuntion a year.
We should hand out government issue single shot handguns of a unique caliber. All other guns, except hunting rifles and shotguns, must be remitted to the government for a tax credit. Possession of any ammunition other than for the single shot government issue or the hunting rifle or the shotgun, will result in a felony charge of 5 years in prison for every 100 illegal bullets. This should be enforced by Jan1, 2014.
Boycott Walmart for selling DEATH
Don't forget Planned Parenthood as well.
So we don't need 30 round magazines? OK, we also don't need autos that can travel all day at 150 MPH. I will help you collect and destroy all the high capacity magazines exactly one day after you ban Corvettes.
What's that you say? Why single out the Corvette when so many other autos can go that fast? Well, it, uh, LOOKS fast and dangerous even when it's sitting still. That's enough for me, it MUST be pure evil. The way someone might drive it obviously does not matter.
Sheesh!
The previous ban on so-called "assault rifles" and high capacity magazines did not reduce gun crime the first time around under Clinton so Obama wants to try it again expecting a different result?
It's been said that doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result is the very definition of bat$hit crazy.
Sorry, but I'll take the NRA's proposal over that of a crazy man.
Isn't this the definition of insanity, try the exact same thing over and over again and expect different results.
Yes Chuck you're right. But still...if the shoe fits.
Insanity rules at Obama's house.
There is a lot of talk about having guns to kill criminals---that sounds good, but lets compare how many criminals have been killed by guns in the past 10 years compared to the number of innocent people who have been shot and killed during the same period of time!!---(Google it!)
I did Google it, the ratio is about 10 to 1 (criminals killed vs innocent people). What's your point other than guns saves lives?
People defending themselves by merely presenting their weapon are not a stories that the main stream media publish.
You don't have to kill someone to save a life. A gun is the perfect equalizer particullarly for women, the disabled, and the elderly.
Bill O'Reilly on "The Five". "I want to protect my family, I do not want to depend on the government to protect my family"pp. There it is. No way in h--- am I going to trust my family's safety and security to obama. If you do you very well might be the next one we read about. In a word-Benghazi.
In a word-nut.
I just can't understand why these leftwing nuts think another law is going to make things better. Banning "assault" weapons ( which they are not, they are simply SEMI-AUTO LOADING weapons cosmeticly dressed up to look like an assault weapon) or high capacity mags are NOT going to make a difference to someone who wants to commit a horrendous crime. These laws will stop nothing, but will infringe on MY right to choose the type of weapon I wish to hunt with. I use my AR to hunt coyotes and prarie dogs, the 30 round mag makes it more convenient when hunting dogs, but outlawing them would not stop a sick person from doing the same amount of carnage. I could put 00 buck in some of my shotguns and put 45 lethal pellets in the air with only 5 pulls of the trigger.This is a feel good measure that will make no difference, put well trained, well armed guards in our schools and these tragedies will stop.
You people trying to ban high capacity clips are idiots. If you knew if only took a second to change clips and that you could carry many smaller clips, if you had a clue what you were talking about you would drop this. Maybe you want to make a law that you can only have 1 bullet on you at a time? dbags!
Mag change for a trained individual about two seconds.
30 round dump about 30 seconds of aimed fire.
Three 10 round Mag dumps 34 seconds.
Yeah that Law will help.
Are these psycho killers trained? NO.
Everyone who actually read the article please indicate by raising your index finger off the keyboard. Thank you.
What happened was one of the worst things in the world. Being a parent I totally understand why people want to blame someone or something. I was listening to a radio yesterday to some guru Dr. that was saying how the high capacity clip was to blame. Well there was little to no way to prevent this attack. People say that a 10 round clip or something less could have prevented this. In reality regardless of the weapon he was fighting woman and children age 6 and 7. If he had had a six shooter he still would have had time to reload with a speed load taking about 1.6 seconds to reload.
I believe firmly in guns in schools with individuals that go thru specialized training class and mental assessments and have a gun safe which is secured by concreate or some other method to prevent it from being stolen. We can no longer count on the police or swat to be at a school within less then 5 minutes to save a our school. We America needs to prevent actions like this in the future. In five minutes he killed 26 people and without a gun in the school there is no way to prevent this. And keeping our head in the sand just hoping to prevent a crazy person or disgruntled student doesn't attack is no way to live. if I thought for a second that criminals would not be able to get their hands on guns and high capacity clips I would say great but that is not the case and the danger of allowing only criminals to have them is unacceptable to me.
Watch out gun nuts.......the freight train of gun control is heading down the tracks. Either get on board, get out of the way, or get run over........lol.
In gun crazy Arizona they took the perp down (tackled him) when he had to reload. I want the killers to have to reload. Barney Fife concealed carry was no where to be found.
11 madness, you do realize that one of the gentlemen that tackled the AZ shooter had his ccw pistol with him but opted not to use it because of the bystanders behind the shooter? So much for the gun crazy people that legally carry firearms.