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Subscribe to RSSA long-dormant national conversation about guns has reignited: some are calling for an assault weapons ban while other feel guns themselves aren't the root of the problem. So far the shootings have sparked several gun buy-back programs and even an anti-gun video organized by big-city mayors – but the NRA says it's the entertainment industry that is partly to blame. NBC's John Yang reports.
The National Rifle Association’s call to put armed guards in every public school in America has further intensified the debate over how to protect our nation’s children in class, with some districts saying they’re preparing to take just that action and other educators cautioning that doing so sends the wrong message about education.
And short of giving teachers and officers their own guns, administrators across the country are desperate to find a way to keep their pupils safe. Locked vestibules with buzzers, emergency preparedness drills, stronger glass and surveillance cameras are among measures being considered after the massacre last week at Sandy Hook Elementary School.
Even before the NRA’s Wayne LaPierre said Friday that armed police should be placed in schools, guards with guns were posted at all 14 schools in Butler, Pa.
This Sunday on Meet the Press: NRA Chief Wayne LaPierre
The district of 7,500 pupils about 40 miles northeast of Pittsburgh had already gone to court to get a judge's approval to have at least one armed retired state trooper in every school. They were in place as classes resumed Monday after the mass shootings Dec. 14 in Newtown, Conn.
"We plan to have that on a daily basis from now on," Superintendent Michael Strutt told NBC station WPXI of Pittsburgh. By the time the next school year begins, every guard in the school system will be armed, he said.
The sense of urgency is undeniable, with a few districts willing to fight fire with fire, as in Butler. Schools in Marlboro, N.J., for example, will have armed officers in place by January, Mayor John Hornik told NBC News on Friday.
After a week of calls for tighter gun restrictions, the National Rifle Association called for putting more armed security officers in the nation's schools and expressed concerns about violence portrayed in video games, movies and music. NBC's Pete Williams reports.
State Sen. Joe Scarnati, a Republican representing northern Pennsylvania, said there was only one important question: "What do we do to protect our kids?"
"If it requires to put armed individuals in our schools to protect our kids, then we need to do that," Scarnati told NBC station WJAC of Johnstown.
But that idea doesn't sit well with other educators, like Tony Scott, superintendent of schools in Bellaire, Ohio, where a local firearms association said it would provide free shooting training to teachers after the Connecticut shootings.
"I just don't believe our teachers signed up for this," Scott told NBC station WTOV of Steubenville, Ohio. "I know I didn't sign up for it."
Ronald Stephens, executive director of the National School Safety Center, a joint project of the U.S. Education and Justice departments, said there's no centralized database tabulating how many school systems have an official armed presence on campus, but he estimated it at 25 percent. He called the NRA proposal "unfeasible."
"We have to ask ourselves what kind of climate we want to create in our schools. Do we want our school campus to look like the Old West with people having sidearms attached to their hip, or do we want education to happen in a positive way?" Stephens told NBC News. "That's the hard part of this."
Michael Smerconish, author Steve Siebold and David Corn of Mother Jones debate the NRA's idea that more guns and armed teachers would curb gun violence.
Some administrators are looking elsewhere for solutions. After years of unlocked front doors and casual conversations about someday increasing security in the small school district of New Hartford, Conn., Superintendent Philip O'Reilly isn't wasting another minute.
Fearing a repeat of the tragedy in nearby Newtown, O'Reilly is planning to modify the district's school buildings so they each have a small, locked vestibule between the main entrance and the building's interior, which will hold visitors for screening.
O'Reilly wouldn't give the cost of these new entryways, but he said the money must be found.
Watch US News videos on NBCNews.com
"Cost is no longer the priority. Keeping kids safe is the priority," he said.
In some cases, parents are leading the charge.
"I've had superintendents and headmasters who have been fighting for a year or two trying to do this, and the parents have been fighting them hand and fist because they didn't understand, and now the parents are coming to the school officials saying, 'Why aren't you?'" said Michael Dorn, executive director of Safe Havens International, a nonprofit group based in Georgia that helps schools improve their crisis preparedness.
Michael Dorn of Safe Havens International relays tips on how schools and parents can keep kids safe.
Security experts recommend that school districts start with a security assessment. Because changing entryways or installing security cameras can be expensive, these experts said school systems need to figure out exactly what their biggest shortcomings are before plowing ahead.
"The number one request [schools have been asking for since Newtown] is to conduct a security assessment. We look at everything, from your written practices to the physical security devices and emergency plans," said Paul Timm, president of Illinois-based, school security consulting firm RETA Security.
He said his recommendations usually fall in two main areas.
"There are two categories that protect people better than anything else: access control, which includes a locked vestibule, running a closed campus, visitor management procedures; and communications.
Do we have public address systems, do we have telephones that are outfitted with emergency dialing instructions, do we have two-way radios?" Timm said. "Those two areas, more than cameras, more than metal detectors, more than burglar alarm systems, protect people."
Locked vestibules can literally stop an intruder in his or her tracks. As administrators have become more concerned about security, many schools have restricted access to just one main entry point in the hope of doing that, Timm said.
Another solution for safety-proofing schools: bullet-resistant glass. Timm recently helped a school in Hastings, Minn., replace all the tempered glass in the building with laminated glass after a student brought a gun to school, and the total cost was about $3,500.
But such a low dollar figure for security fixes is rare.
"A large percentage of our schools are not designed well for any of these things. Sometimes, something simple can be $5 million," Dorn said.
Federal funds for school safety — the Readiness and Emergency Management for Schools (REMS) project — were eliminated in March 2011. Now the money must come from local taxpayers.
"There's not much in the budget for security at all. I want to say that before Columbine, not many schools had a line item for security in their budget," Timm said.
One security measure that doesn't come with a hefty price tag is running drills with teachers, students and administrators for various scenarios.
"It prepares us to make life-and-death situations more quickly," Dorn said. "They have an opportunity do something like lock a door, move kids out of a classroom, and [if] for various reasons don't take that action, our casualty rate doubles or triples. The human brain works faster than my laptop to make those life-and-death decisions, but only if you've had the exposure to prepare you."
Andrew Mach of NBC News contributed to this report.
The manufacturer of a children's backpack designed to stop bullets says sales have skyrocketed in the wake of the Newtown massacre. But are some parents overreacting? KPRC's Courtney Zavala reports.
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- Video: Scammers prey on Newtown families
Leave a Comment:
NRA = Out of touch with sane people.
The NRA should just admit they are @!$%#s and try to avoid a Rick Perry, stepping in dung.
Those of you that don't want armed guards or Police should list your name here so we know how much you love your kids!
"other educators cautioning that doing so sends the wrong message about education."
The message we should be sending is we love you and we will do what it takes to keep you safe from sick people! I'm beginning to wonder who the sick people really are. Those that want to hurt children or those that want to make it so damn easy. Grow some balls and protect your children/family. Home made weapons like those they are finding in Mexico and other countries are not what we need in this country and that will be the case.
The NRA's idea is not new. My high school, located in generally safe suburbia, always had an armed cop stationed there during school hours, in response to Columbine. We even had it in elementary school within the same district, well before Columbine - we just called it the "Adopt a Cop" program.
Since we're all about distorting statistics in our favor these days, it was 100% effective since no mass shootings ever occurred there.
putting a cop with a squadcar parked out front is effective and doesn't cause a hubbub.... our city has been doing it at every school for over a decade since Columbine..... and we've got zero serious school violence in an urban area.
it doesn't cause a big problem at the school and turn it into an armed camp.... our kids never even think or talk about it.... and anybody thinking of pulling this kind of crap knows that they will probably get shot dead within a minute or two without accomplishing what they want...
an assault weapons ban isn't going to happen... congress already knows its' politically unattainable... maybe a magazine restriction, but how effective is that? Lanza had a couple of handguns and a bunch of smaller magazines and a shotgun with him, he would have just done the same thing, but had to spend a extra second or two once a minute changing magazines... and we would still be having this discussion, but people would be able to use the 'assault weapon and magazine ban' catchphrase without knowing what that really implies, how poorly it worked before, and how unlikely it is to make a difference now.
Closing the barn door after a million plus assault style rifles are already in circulation is stupid.... it's useless... we should be working on real, effective background checks, stopping insurance companies from screwing us out of mental health coverage, school security.... things that actually have a chance of working....
msn writes crappy prolonged propaganda spinning a liberal agenda....
this article is pure crap and very biased and totally is pure opinion
there is no news in this article, just some lame ass writers opinion
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!
OH NO! You mean the schools are considering doing these things?
Of course the little limp-wristed Libbies are in an uproar because the mean spooky NRA bogeyman was saying things they don't agree with.
I'm shocked I tell you, shocked. A dysfunctional Liberal/Progressive, can you believe it?
Of course the Liberals just want to keep that pathetically useless Assault Weapons Ban that had NO measurable effect on gun violence because it makes them "feel" better. All Liberal/Progressive solutions are based on emotions during crises rather than rational policies.
Liberals know more gun control won't work. They really don't care about preventing crime, they just have been indoctrinated into thinking that disarming law abiding citizens will stop criminals. This is the convoluted bizarre logic Liberals try to believe.
At least the idiot Piers Morgan was honest when he admitted he was happy this tragedy occurred so he could press the dysfunctional Liberal agenda of total disarmament. Of course the useful idiot Liberals will support a Brit trying to destroy our Liberties and Freedoms.
According to a 2004 study from the University of Pennsylvania regarding the 1994 assault weapons ban, "We cannot clearly credit the ban with any of the nation's recent drop in gun violence," the study concluded. "And, indeed, there has been no discernible reduction in the lethality and injuriousness of gun violence."
But the Liberals, in typical knee-jerk fashion will go through all the machinations to restrict our 2nd Amendment rights and totally neglect all the other issues such as education, safety, mental health concerns and social/moral collapse caused by Progressivism and political correctness.
But then again we have our buffoon vice-president, Joe "Bite Me" Biden, leading this evaluation. He'll forget what he was supposed to be doing in a few days.
Funny isn’t it? Barrack Hussein and his criminal A.G., Eric Holder, want to ban guns for law abiding citizens yet they give away 2,500 assault weapons to Mexican mafia and drug dealers without so much as asking for an I.D.
Liberal hypocrisy is only surpassed by its delusions.
We are slowly turning our schools into minimum security prisons. I dont know what the answer is but I bet it starts with ending bullying and better mental health care.
If the school district that my children go to starts to have armed teachers, guards, or police, then I will start home schooling.
You should probably start it now Brenda, because if your school district doesn't make a positive move to deter the crazies then your kids have a better than average chance of being a statistic.
out of touch is not arming our kids schools wake up !!!my children now 22 and 16 have had armed police in there middle and high schools for many yrs and now hopefully for the lil ones we have them in all federal buildings what those people deserve to be protected and our children don't? ..look whine about guns all you want they are here and so is the mentally ill having no where to get help do you think Adam yes Adam he was a 20 yr old boy who was given anti depressant by his mother who loved him and was trying to help him but it lists homicidal violence and suicide as a side affect and until you know someone who is so locked inside their illness because i do you dont have a clue what your talking about i have a friend who hears voices he goes to emergency room they shove more of these pills down his throat and sends him home to his family while i pray please dont let him harm anyone ..THERE IS NO HELP FOR THESE PEOPLE NONE so blame guns and the nra we live in a self serving country that blames everyone for their problems its starts with us and guns are to protect us from a corrupt government which sadly we have one ...you give up yours ill keep mine thank you but dont whine to me when some mentally ill person kills you or your kids im not coming to help you ..
What gun do you have that will protect you from the government? What gun do you have that will stand up to an M1A1, because if the government is coming to oppress you, that is what they will be coming in. They will not simply be putting themselves out there for you to shoot at them and they do have a plan for dealing with the armed public should that need arise.
One problem with arming schools is that there is no such thing as a good guy bullet. The rounds fired from a gun can literally end up anywhere once they leave the gun.. In gun training, any good instructor will tell you that there is no putting a bullet where you intended 100% of the time. What happens when the armed guard must use those weapons on a gunman that attacked a school despite having a security presence? What happens when kids get shot anyway?
I wish I could say that this move was not expected, but it was.. Just as this is the start of a fed up populace that will eventually start carrying weapons to protect themselves from guns that are, in some ways even scarier then guns themselves.
Are you ready for the escalation to come? Are you ready for the new tech coming down the line that will make guns 2end rate and are you ready for an ever expanding weapons and counter weapons race among the public?
By the time this is all said and done, we will all wish we had compromised on the control of guns, because now we are opening the door to new weapons and you wont like the world that creates.
The problem with EVERYONES' response is that they are WRONG. All these solutions are for the heat of the moment or after the fact. We need to confront the real problem and that is violent people and violence in our culture. We must start recognizing that escalating violence from everything through some sports, video games, neighborhood gangs, home life, nasty bosses, acceptance of crimes like rape, abuse or abusive use (of almost everything) has become "acceptable." IT'S NOT ACCEPTABLE. We've become calloused to it. And when it comes back and bites us in the a$$, then all the blame and fingerpointing starts all over again.
What can we do? We can start by figuring out what is violent and quit watching it, doing it and/or accepting its existence. It won't be easy. We have a lot of it! Example: The shootings at Sandy Hook School. It's on every media page and picture. It's talked about and analyzed on every level. Some folks are really into the bloody pictures. What horrors! Some folks are so rabid that they have even interviewed Lanza's hairdresser for more insidious remarks! Yes, this disaster does need to be talked about and analyzed to help prevent it from happening again. What it doesn't need is a bunch of armchair quarterbacks escalating the already terrible situation. And the media must stop this bunch of foolishness of making things worse!
Example 2: Westboro Cult of Loonies. They go about the country telling everyone that God Hates (choose any subject), and he wants more dead. Violence through a supposedly loving God who hates everyone? But the violence is again escalated on both sides. Most folks would be totally happy if a flaming meteor crashed into their church building during Sunday Services. The Westboro clan would be happy if everyone else on the planet was wiped out. Violence and more violence, one trying to top the other. (I'm not immune either, but I would prefer it was two meteors on the Westboro bunch, nuked from orbit, but that's just me. It proves that ALL of us have a lot of work to do.)
We can confront the after-the-fact scenario of school protection, child safety, gun control, but it won't fix a thing. What fix is needed is "us." And it's never too early to start.
START HERE: 26 Acts of Kindness. If you don't know what it is, look it up. I'm on number 14. (And these are SERIOUS acts of kindness, not just some lip service to an ideal.) I'm actually working on 28, just because of the 28 dead that didn't need to be. And I'll probably go further. It's a starting place, not a finishing place.
I'm quite sure the powers that be are running around with hard-ons, as we speak. They now can thank you, the weak population who is scared of your own shadows. I see our schools now being beefed up to the point of where you won't be able to tell the difference between schools and prisons. Not that it really matters, most of our kids will wind up in prisons after they steal more freedoms.
“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”Ben Franklin
If you can't understand what he is saying, then you don't deserve to live in my country. Yes, it is sad that kids died. But we need time to think, before we over react and push something through that is way over the top and counter productive to society. I still find it funny that everyone wants more laws on guns, but nobody wants better mental health for us all. I pity society, we never learn from history and are doomed to keep repeating it because of our failures. I'm a left leaner, and I don't think gun restrictions is the answer. We need more psychiatric evaluations before people buy firearms. Criminals will always have access to guns, but the magic question is, WILL YOU?
oldhamletman
putting a cop with a squadcar parked out front is effective and doesn't cause a hubbub.... our city has been doing it at every school for over a decade since Columbine..... and we've got zero serious school violence in an urban area.
it doesn't cause a big problem at the school and turn it into an armed camp.... our kids never even think or talk about it.... and anybody thinking of pulling this kind of crap knows that they will probably get shot dead within a minute or two without accomplishing what they want...
an assault weapons ban isn't going to happen... congress already knows its' politically unattainable... maybe a magazine restriction, but how effective is that? Lanza had a couple of handguns and a bunch of smaller magazines and a shotgun with him, he would have just done the same thing, but had to spend a extra second or two once a minute changing magazines... and we would still be having this discussion, but people would be able to use the 'assault weapon and magazine ban' catchphrase without knowing what that really implies, how poorly it worked before, and how unlikely it is to make a difference now.
Closing the barn door after a million plus assault style rifles are already in circulation is stupid.... it's useless... we should be working on real, effective background checks, stopping insurance companies from screwing us out of mental health coverage, school security.... things that actually have a chance of working....
in all police training classes, there is one thing that always comes out, THERE IS NO WAY TO PROTECT FROM A DERANGED, OR DEDICATED INDIVIDUAL PERSON WHO IS GOING TO GO ON A KILLING SPREE, the biggest fear law enforcement has is the single killer on a mission; the only protection is to take that person down as fast as possible, all the gun laws in the world have no effect on terriost, insane, or dedicated assassins; the ones who want to do harm will always find a way, it is sad but true.
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control.
From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. In 1911, Turkey established gun control.
From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
"Those of you that don't want armed guards or Police should list your name here so we know how much you love your kids!"
So you think the NRA's suggestion to put more guns in school and arm teachers is a good idea? Wow! If you're so scared you may want to lock your kids up at home and never let them out.
This has nothing to do with loving or not loving your kids. Its a stupid OVER reaction from a tragic but rare incident. It's far more likey your kids will die from you driving them to school than from someone shooting them in school. Get a grip on reality!
You will never stop insane people from doing insane things and that armed gaurd will probably just be the first person shot.
I never had a gaurd, locked doors, metal detector or armed teachers and no one ever shot up my school.
"other educators cautioning that doing so sends the wrong message about education."
The message we should be sending is we love you and we will do what it takes to keep you safe from sick people! I'm beginning to wonder who the sick people really are. Those that want to hurt children or those that want to make it so damn easy. Grow some balls and protect your children/family. Home made weapons like those they are finding in Mexico and other countries are not what we need in this country and that will be the case."
You're the sick person. Try using your silly little head. What are you going to say the first time an armed teacher snaps and shots the kids? Or maybe that minium wage securtiy gaurd that thinks he's a big wig now that he has a gun shoots some kid for not obeying him?
Schools don't need GUNs period!
"putting a cop with a squadcar parked out front is effective and doesn't cause a hubbub.... our city has been doing it at every school for over a decade since Columbine..... and we've got zero serious school violence in an urban area."
You probably wouldn't have had any serious school violence even with out them being there. While Sandy Hook and a few others were tragic events They are in fact rare when you figure in all the schools across the country. There is no need to over react and turn schools into armed camps. If I recall Columbine had an armed gaurd and it din't seem to matter.
As always, I checked the sources that NBC uses in their propaganda pieces. In this case, I actually had to laugh out loud.
NBC's primary source to respond in agreement with the NBC anti-gun agenda is Ronald Stephens, executive director of the National School Safety Center.
On that organization's website, the top two actions that HE believes that the Federal Government should take are:
"Place school safety on the national agenda."
"Permanently fund the National School Safety Center (HIS ORGANIZATION)."
WHAT AN ALTRUIST!!
What scares me the most is people on here advocating the right to carry a gun in the schools, but can't seem to form complete sentences or spell correctly. Now that is scary.
The same could be said for not gutting the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
The problem with physical and I should say superficial security measures alone is that they are only a temporary impediment to a determined adversary. The argument that having a well trained and armed person to respond once the physical measures have been breached constitutes having an armed camp is a strawman. The people who would argue against using firearms in neutralizing an active shooter are either shills for the gun control lobby or the same people who argued to mainstream these monsters in the first place, or both.
Brenda,
before people got afraid of guns, and gun bans started being put in schools, any people who went "nuts" never killed or injured more than a couple of people. They were subdued quickly by someone else with a gun.
Now, do we want that type of thing again, well, the lack of mass killings yes, but not the possibility of multiple gun related skirmishes.
The way to handle this has long been established to have a security person stationed near every entrance. This does not have to be expensive. There are plenty of enforcement trained people who are retired, or partially disabled that would perform quite well. By opening these possibilites to screened volunteers, or give them some extra money to to help the school kids be safe would be huge.
IF you have a security person watching the door, this kid may have shot out the glass to get in the, but he may never have walked more than a few steps further. This is no different than having a police officer at every street corner or a security person in a business building.
I was talking to a school adminstrator and chief of maintenance at a private school. The maintenance guy was thinking of looking into bullet proof glass for entrances. I think this only solves one scenario, not the many other problems that occur. While the school uses a lock down system, there are times were the doors are left unlocked and only supervised by a security camera system where there is not one constantly monitoring. Mainly the only time office staff looks up when someone buzzes to get in.
They do have people watch were the kids come in, but they are strictly volunteers and get called away. I have peformed this task often the last couple of years. The most you can do is alert the office of suspicious activity, and no, you don't have a radio to do that. I expect to see an upgrade in communication systems because this is a combined church and school facility with separate staff watching separate entrances.
While the schools are being armed, maybe they could also go back to teaching kids the difference between right and wrong....like 'thou shalt not kill'. Oooh, I forgot, they can't teach any of that evil religious stuff now, can they?
So... the answer is not "address the problem", it is treat the symptom? We have gone from a society where just a little while back kids could play outside and go adventuring on their bikes to talking about teachers carrying guns and police in the schools?
This looks to me like a trend I don't want to see continue. But how do we stop and even reverse the trend?
Well.. maybe we can start with reversing the notion that being selfish is a good idea. I read yesterday that the arguement against banning assault weapons is that the person couldn't shoot as many bullets before they had to reload.
Translation? I don't want to be inconvienenced even if it may mean that lives are saved. All of us in this discussion are adults, so of course we should take the course that is least a problem for us and just let the children suffer?
We are what we eat... If we raise our children in a "maximum security" environment where no one is safe, that is the world they will see as normal. And what will the ends of that be as this generation grows and assumes control? What are the psychological implications of children growing up surrounded by guns at home, in school, in cartoons, in movies, in games... just about everywhere?!
The zeitgeist has to change... We are walking backwards from civilization to savagery. We are moving back into the jungle but this time, instead of spears and clubs, we will have automatic weapons.
We watch shows about post-apocalyptic living... well, instead of avoiding it, we may just be welcoming it.
All cops at every school will actually do is make the insane shooters pick a new target. While it's admirable that they won't be shooting up schools you're not going to be happy when they move on to Target, Lowes, the malls (already a target), downtown shopping districts, fast food restaurants (already been done), movie theaters (already be done), strip malls, etc. I worked on a college campus. They had the second largest police force in the state. Real cops not security guards. They also had a lot of security guards and "greeters" at many doors. The place had close to 200 emergency phones and cameras on poles. Even more camera on buildings. The place was also patrolled by the police of the city. The point is they still had a enormous amount of crime. Muggings, rapes, armed robberies, aggravated assaults, car thefts, vandalism, drug sales, shootings etc.
BP, just when I was thinking you might have a point...."Or maybe that minium wage securtiy gaurd that thinks he's a big wig now that he has a gun shoots some kid for not obeying him?" You blew it
If armed guards in every school becomes the answer to this, the NRA has succeeded in destroying America to serve their agenda. The United States was founded on the idea that 'Rule of Law' was a citizen's protection against other citizens and the government, with force being the last option. The NRA's message of 'the law won't protect you or solve your problem, only a gun can' throws that ideal out the window. And if you think that our children in these armed schools won't absorb that message, you're fools...
Until America controls guns, guns will control America.
I'm not seeking more security in the schools any more than I sought more security at the airport. But I am certain it will shoved down myu throat wether I like it or not. You all may as well get used to more "security" and "protection" everywhere as the powers that be crush the spirits of the people in the last bastion of freedom in the world. It's too late. The demi god socialist control freaks have won. They bought off the country from the bottom up AND the top down. It only cost them 16 trillion to do it.
WTF? That is for the parents to do. You are one lazy parent.
spider-737231
Interesting, isn't it?
All the secularists in the Liberal/Progressive cabal and what was happening while this monster was killing people?
Prayer.
Teachers and children huddled together, hearts pounding, minds racing, thoughts confused and what overwhelms them?
Prayer.
I thought prayer was outlawed in public schools. Where is all the Liberal/Progressive/Secularists outrage? Where is the condemnation? Where is all the bluster about their "Seperation of Church and State" nonsense? I'll wager that all the atheists, agnostics and other pagans were involved in one thing while the fear of death was consuming them.
Prayer.
Just more evidence of Americas religious roots. As the old saying goes, "As long as there are tests in Public Schools, there will be prayer". The same is true for times of crisis. When faced with chaos, fear the unknown and impending doom everyone becomes religious. While this monster was massacring innocent children and teachers I guarantee you no one was praying for more government help. They were praying to a much higher power.
It's a shame religion has become a part-time belief system for so many and non-existent to others. I'm not saying one religion is better than another, but they all give you something nothing else can, hope. Unfortunately this monster snuffed out 27 innocent lives before he took his own. The tragedy is not just that he committed this heinous crime, it's that it ever happened. All the altruism in the world can't convince anyone that we can ever live in a perfect world. What we can do is make it as safe as possible.
Simply banning a few automatic weapons will not fix the problem. This is a multifactorial problem. Firearms, mental health, bullying/social issues and most importantly, education, are contributing factors.
Our government run Public Education system is such an embarrassment. There has been a dramatic shift over the past century, more exactly the past 50 years, in our education system. From academic education that predominated through the 1950’s to values education between 1960 and 1980 to the current workforce education training, or better known as outcomes based education, that obtunds our children. Education reformers have even found a nice term for our children, human capital. The mind of the average American has become “trained” (conditioned) to accept the idea that education exists solely for the purpose of getting a good paying job in the global workforce economy. Critical thinking, based on creativity and ingenuity, has been replaced with instructional adherence of programmed inputs.
Success or achievement has been minimized and mediocrity accepted and encouraged. If you can’t pass the test it must be because the test was unfair rather than the student was unprepared. Emotions have displaced competition, if you fail you still get a trophy, or in this case a passing grade. Students cheat, teachers cheat, parents cheat and we expect success. As we have produced two to three generations of illiteracy we expect parents to help our children achieve. The metaphor, the blind leading the blind, comes to mind. Ask 100 parents to locate Iraq or Panama on a map and more than 60% will fail. This is not wave theory in quantum physics.
As we lose the illiteracy war, we lose our great Republic. As John Kennedy stated, "Children are the world's most valuable resource and its best hope for the future." Today we must mourn for those poor souls in Connecticut. Once our grieving is tolerable we must apply ourselves to all the problems and find reasonable solutions.
I'd like to see the supporting evidence that there was an armed guard guard at Columbine. I have been seeing this posted and mentioned lately but nowhere in the official account is this documented.
The shootings at Columbine started outside the school. About 5 minutes after the first shots were fired, a Deputy Sheriff Gardner, ("assigned" to the school), arrived and engaged while the shooters were still outside. they exchanged gunfire and then the shooters went inside while the Deputy remained outside. You have to remember, that standard police policy at the time was to not pursue inside but to wait for the SWAT Team to arrive. In fact in Columbine, the SWAT team didn't enter the school until after the shooting had ceased and the shooters had killed themselves. This was at just 10 minutes shy of a full 2 hours after the first shots were fired.
Deputy Gardner and a second officer, Deputy Smoker, a motorcycle patrolman whose patrol area included the school got the radio call and arrived in time to also engage the shooters outside. He was writing a traffic ticket nearby at the time.
Now all of a sudden in the last couple days, these officers whose patrol area included the school, seem to have become "armed security guards at the school". This is pure BS. These officers were not stationed at the school. Deputy Gardner had the assignment which included keeping an eye on the school and being the official assigned officer. The other Deputy who was obviously patrolling his assigned area writing a traffic ticket at the time was clearly not specifically assigned to guard the school as people are trying to spin it.
Look people, this is how it typically works. Cops have a patrol area that will in some cases include a school. Often there is an officer who's assignment may include being a "liaison" to the school. His job may typically involve a presence at the school during start and end times doing things like watching for reckless driving and misbehaving in the parking lots, he might be the guy that gets called in after a fight, or to check on some vandalism or similar minor offenses on the school campus. Keep in mind that Columbine was in an unincorporated area in the county in the suburbs of Denver. Under the jurisdiction of the County Sheriffs department. Columbine is a pretty bigschool with about 1700 students drawing students in from a fairly wide area. This is a pretty big county covering about 800 square miles, with a mix of suburbs and rural areas. It is a relatively narrow county that spans about 60 miles from the extreme boundaries. Columbine and Sandy Hook are only similar in that they are both schools.
While I'm at it let's clear up some other things about Columbine that are being misrepresented lately. I have heard several "experts" in recent days talking about the use of "assault weapons" at Columbine. Not so. Columbine took place during the assault weapons ban. The closest thing to an "assault weapon" was a carbine known as the Hi-Point 995. Built in Ohio buy Hi-Point firearms. The 995 was actually designed during the "assault weapons" ban. It was designed along the lines of being a legal alternative to banned weapons. It was in this case chambered in the 9mm handgun round with a 10 round magazine. It looks nothing like the ARs or the AKs and most would not mistake it for a "military type" weapon. It is more of what is sometimes called a ranch or camp gun. It is semi-auto small rifle. The shooter who had this weapon brought 13 ten round magazines with him. 96 rounds were fired from this weapon. One shooter had a Tec-9. These were 9mm handguns designed to look like mini-machine guns. He did have extended magazines for these. They were banned during the "assault weapons" ban but many pre-ban guns and magazines were in existence. The company modified it removing the threaded barrel and producing it only with ten round magazines thereby becoming legal under the ban. The old pre ban magazines fit the new legal version. The threaded adapter at the end of the barrel was one of those cosmetic qualifiers of "assault weapons". The Tec-9 is a cheaply made 9mm handgun that looks mean. In reality it's a pretty crappy pistol as 9mm handguns go. Whether or not the Tec-9 involved was pre-ban or the legal version isn't 100% clear. The 3 magazines they brought with the gun were pre ban. A 28 round, a 32 round and a 52 round magazine. 55 rounds were fired from this weapon. That said, there is nothing extraordinary about these except their appearance. They are not very well made and aren't particularly reliable, but they are "scary" looking. Some very early versions of these were converted to full auto by some drug criminals. The one used in Columbine was semi-auto. The Columbine shooters also had two shotguns of legal design, but they sawed them off illegally to make them more concealable. The point is that the weapons were not illegal under the "assault weapons" ban. The only illegal weapons were the shotguns because they were sawed off making legal guns, illegal. The two shooter together had four weapons and fired about 180 rounds in total. They also had constructed 99 improvised explosive devices based on Internet information.
The two Columbine shooter broke a number of laws regarding the firearms, but the weapons involved were available even with the ban in place. They did not use anything that had some exceptional lethality over any other typical weapons. None of the weapons were "military style" nor would any ever be likely chosen for military use.
The two Deputies who now are being called armed guards by anti-gun pundits, were in fact not security guards. When they were engaged in the gunfire exchange outside the school it was from a distance of 60 yards. At that distance with a service pistol, hitting the intended target would require significant favorable luck. Had the two Deputies been in the school or had they entered the school early on it is highly likely that lives could have been saved. Two officers with standard service pistols and a riot shotgun which most likely was available to the first Deputy in his cruiser, would hardly have been "out gunned". The policy of waiting for SWAT contributed to the carnage, The shooting was over about 20 minutes before SWAT arrived. The two shooters killed themselves about ten minutes later. The SWAT team didn't enter the school until another hour later.
The complete distortion of the events a Columbine being made for the sole purpose of a political agenda based argument is absolutely disgusting. The distortion of facts at Sandy Hook by many anti- gun and political pundits is equally disgusting. I am getting really tired of hearing lines like the shooter using the "same weapon our troops in Afghanistan use." Absolutely untrue. They look similar, they both fire bullets. But they aren't the same.
One final qualifier. I am a Progressive. I am fine with sensible, effective regulations as long as they don't handicap law abiding citizens or infringe on our rights to defend ourselves. I have no need to have guns so "I can take back an 'out of control' government". I have no need to possess military weapons either, but that is not what we're talking about, even though they are being described as such. I have virtually no use for the NRA, who in my mind is little more than a Political Action Committee for the right wing. However, what Mr. LaPierre suggested yesterday is absolutely dead on. His proposal of getting trained police officers in the schools to provide security is definitely going to be far more effective than anything the anti-gun crowd is talking about. He's not talking about using armed teachers or rent-a-cops, but specifically trained law enforcement types and potentially specifically trained veterans. I am disgusted with many of my fellow lefties who are either just being stupid and uninformed and caught up in rhetoric, or they are deliberately spinning lies and misinformation to achieve an anti-gun agenda. This should not be about exploiting children's deaths to achieve some other goal. It should be about protecting our children from mentally ill psychopaths. It may be a complex problem that revolves around the mentally ill person, but some very simple, easy to implement measures like the NRA has suggested can go a long way virtually immediately. But rejecting this very logical approach only to avoid weakening a position on the anti-gun agenda, is just morally wrong.
Imagine yourself asking this question of all the dead victims, both children and adults. "Do you wish there had been an armed police officer providing security at your school the day of the shooting?" Even the most vehemently anti-gun people out there know how they would answer this question. So think about that and imagine their spirits observing you working to deny their wishes. I hope that keeps you from sleeping at night.
oldhamletman #1.4~~ I would not bet against the enaction of an assault weapons ban. WOMEN, moms dads, sisters, brothers and grand-parents, are all mad as he@@, and we are not taking this insanity any more. Our children are much more precious to us than the profit and wealth of gun manufacturers and the NRA, and elected officials, who have sold their soul to the NRA. The time is NOW for the NRA, gun makers and do nothing congress, to get out of our way. We will remember, we will not stop, we will get this done.
mandatory gun locks and gun safes
People, it just don't matter what you come up with, are gonna kill people. It's sad , but true!
"Those of you that don't want armed guards or Police should list your name here so we know how much you love your kids!"
And people not wanting sensible gun control laws should list their names here so we know how little you care about your kids. The selfish want for more and more guns is killing this country. I don't give a f$$k about your so called "right to bear arms". When that "right" allows crazies to endanger the lives of my,and my friends kids,it's outta here.
Any of you guys that want hunting guns and maybe a pistol for home protection aren't the problem,as long as you take personal responsibly and secure them. But idiots that think anyone should be able to have any man or child killing gun available ARE the problem. Every other civilized society has sensible gun laws and only a tiny fraction of the gun murders we do. I'm so sick of the crazies and their right-wing politician lap-dogs standing in the way of our kids safety.
The "black-helicopter" crowd here seems to think their assault rifles and automatic pistols would stop a modern army if they came for them. They might want to ask the zealot fighters in Iraq how well that worked for them. While ied's took a toll on allied troops there. Every firefight between rebels and American soldiers ended with dead rebels. Try your rifles against an attack drone,or tank,good luck with that.
We have set back and let the gun merchants of death hold our country hostage, periodicity demanding their blood sacrifice.And instead of facing up to the facts,and getting a handle on our gun problem.Known in other countries as "the American Disease". We refuse to take any action,and let more and more guns become available. Now those evil idiots want to militarize our schools.And there are plenty of fools,worshiping their guns more than anything else,jumping on the bandwagon with them.
What we need are NATIONWIDE background checks,a NATIONWIDE ban on assault and automatic/semi-automatic weapons,and NATIONWIDE registry of guns.And mandatory gun safety courses for anyone owning guns. Would that eliminate gun murders in our country,of course not. But just like car speed limits,stop signs,slow zones,and traffic lights,don't stop car accidents,they do make them far fewer. Anyone that thinks rules on guns "interfere" with their "rights" and that is more important than saving lives. Then they are too ignorant to be allowed to own guns in the first place.
Talking with some friends,before the NRA came out with their "ideas" on how to stop the violence. I said I thought the commission the President set-up should invite them to join them. That they and some other pro-gun Republicans should join the discussion. That way they could help shape common sense rules that protected hunters and home protection gun owners.While at the same time making it hard for loonies to get hold of guns. But now that I see their solution to the excess of guns we have now,is MORE GUNS. I think they have nothing of sense to contribute.It still might be possible to get useful input from pro-gun groups,but the NRA shows they are so far-out to not be helpful in any way.
I'm betting NBC has templates for just these sort of Newtown scenarios, they have a sequence of stories one feeding the next long before the event happens they know exactly how they will play it to maximum effect and profit.
Maybe it's time not only to regulate guns and clip sizes but to regulate the news media too? Hmmm? How about that you invincible, COMPLETELY IRRESPONSIBLE news outlets, you manipulate us while you gleefully anticipate and promote the next copycat massacre then strech it out as long as possible. Maybe you shouldn't be so smug and secure in your unlimited rights and power. I value freedom of expression above all else, but I'm thinking now that we may need to limit not only how many bullets can fit in a fire arm but HOW MANY WORDS may be spent on a small story no matter how horrific it maybe.
I have had MSNBC as my home page for a decade--that will change. They milk this and story and create the next chapters--'Parents are afraid to send kids to school', 'Surge in bullet proof backpacks', Predictable ridiculous NRA response....on and on and on.. Wonder why everyone is over reacting? You rotten to the core, bastard news organizations LOVE it when the rare shooting spree happens and do ALL YOU CAN TO PROMOTE the next shooting. No wonder you reporters and news ppl think your attentive audience are a pack of simple morons--putty in your hands. I guess we are.
Fuel, you're a moron. Actually, a dangerous moron. You're the Fox News government-paranoia type that goes on angry shooting sprees. Get back on your damn meds.
jake--did you read my entire post? Maybe you are as naive as I once was about the cynical news media and how the look down on all of us pawns. I'm just sorry to see my long time fave MSNBC become so FOX....so trashy and self promoting...sure it's not all that new but it really hit me this time around. (Notice that I don't need to use personal pejoratives to make a point--you might learn by that--how old are you?)
jake2247, you're a moron. Actually, a dangerous moron.
Fuel is correct in his/her statements. The media is just as much to blame for bringing violence into our homes. MSNBC has been riding this tragedy for political purposes.
I have a question for NBC, are you going to stop producing/airing all shows that have guns in them since you seem to be anti-gun? It's different when you make money from violent shows isn't it?
jdmb03, Good question and I think we all know the answer: they will continue to profit off both ends of it. And the more we fear guns the more enticing and dramatic they become for shows....and the perception of power guns acquire in shows fuels the real misuse by insecure failing young men. Nice biz strategy it seems.
all news organizations unfairly dramatize the news and work our emotions to get view time that results in money for them.... they are businesses that get paid for making us outraged... end of story
and if you don't think news organizations have a basic plan for 1st through 10th day stories for major tragedies.... you are the moron
everytime a gun tragedy happens... news orgs play on uneducated peoples opinions about guns.... which outrages them and causes them to ask for unreasonable and illogical change.... which outrages the educated gin crowd, who conflicts with them on these forums...and that drives up hit count, and this ad revenue, dramatically
there won't be a ban.... and new will work us every day to turn this into a 6 months thing and millions of dollars
As long as there are politicians and media stations pushing an agenda of hate, there will be few things anyone can do to be assured of safety. Putting armed guards at schools is little more than an illusion of safety. It may help settle a few kids down but not all of them. Far too often, the illusion of safety causes people to let their guard down. Doing nothing at least keeps people aware of their surrounding and the danger that may be present.
It is past time to quit with all of the illusions and face the fact that we live in a dangerous world that no amount of safety can completely protect us from. Those who incite anger or hatred need to be held accountable for their actions. Normal citizens would either be charged as accomplices or conspiracy if their inciting of hatred lead to violence. It is time for the politicians and the media to be held to that same standard of accountability.
Somehow a recreational and safety RIFLE organization
evolved into an influential CORPORATE lobbying group
that wants America
to become an armed society....... holding fast to semi-automatics.
Well road I'd rather have the illusion of safety and keep the armed policemen that we have and have had for a very long time at all the schools in our district.
Our biggest problem has been stupid teenagers calling in hoax bomb threats (we had 9 in 8 days this month) BUT every one of the little bastards have been arrested. In the 5 years we've lived here this is the only thing we've had to deal with.
Sure lets screw up America some more, Lets put the TSA (Tough@!$%#America) at every school..... We need to start really punishing people who are sent to Jail not turning them lose..... We need to start treating mentally ill people not just saying take 2 of these everyday..... We need to start KILLING people who commit Murder not just throwing them in jail so we have to support not just them but all their keepers..... We need the Public Workers to take some serious cuts in Pay & Benefits, we can not afford to support these people with their early retirement..... We need to stop all this Double Dipping, get out of the way so other people can work..... We need to kick some serious ass with our piss poor Representatives who put their back pocket before this country.....
Fuel is right.
I would also bet that Congress and the President love the media right now as it diverts attention from their inability to come to an agreement on the fiscal cliff.
Moreover, who would have thought that many of those in charge of schools actually agreeing that the NRA's school shield plan actually makes sense. It made perfect sense to me.
I fail to understand the sanity of having armed guards trying to stop a madman armed with an assault rifle and wearing a bullet proof vest. You would have to have the SWAT team there instead of a single armed guard.
roadhead: I agree with your comments. I don't think armed gaurds is an illusion tho. Physical presense of protection is effective tho maybe not 100 percent but it does act as an deterent for some crimes. I feel anything that will help decrease this kind of horrible crime to me is worth it even tho it is not going to stop all of this but it might help.
Fight fire with fire I read in one article. Well even tho I am not a violent person I have come to agree with that. I believe that the teachers will not let their gaurd down especially now. All of us are fired up now and hopefully it will stay that way. If a threat comes to the school and starts shooting and the guard brings that person down at least some lives are saved, not that this would always be the case I know.
My slogan is "remember Newtown", the children and adults.
We must in their memory do something. I would like to see assualt weapons banned from purchase but not all guns. I know this is not popular among a lot of gun owners but just giving my opinion.
I like what you have to say and how well spoken you are. And I totally agree with you regarding the media. The best response and action we can take is to turn the televisions OFF!! Unfortunately there are too many people who keep glued to their t.v.'s during a crisis such as this. It is a sad snowball effect.
on the lighter side..The security cameras might make an interesting reality show on teen activities at school.
Maybe Boehner and his house Republicans will allow money in their budget plan to pay for the armed guards in all the schools. I seriously doubt it but I do know that volunteers will not work for free ever day. Just like the volunteer fire department, it's fun for a while then it becomes work. People want paid for their work. Hell...some people don't think the police are worth what they are paid. How long would people pay for armed guards in schools?
Here's an idea...stop the madness in Afghanistan, bring our men home, and let one soldier in full military gear stand guard at every school. Would not be an increase in military spending since they're already getting paid and our schools would be safer for it. Gee...they might actually feel like they are doing something good for the country for a change.
oldhamletman
putting a cop with a squadcar parked out front is effective and doesn't cause a hubbub.... our city has been doing it at every school for over a decade since Columbine..... and we've got zero serious school violence in an urban area.
it doesn't cause a big problem at the school and turn it into an armed camp.... our kids never even think or talk about it.... and anybody thinking of pulling this kind of crap knows that they will probably get shot dead within a minute or two without accomplishing what they want...
an assault weapons ban isn't going to happen... congress already knows its' politically unattainable... maybe a magazine restriction, but how effective is that? Lanza had a couple of handguns and a bunch of smaller magazines and a shotgun with him, he would have just done the same thing, but had to spend a extra second or two once a minute changing magazines... and we would still be having this discussion, but people would be able to use the 'assault weapon and magazine ban' catchphrase without knowing what that really implies, how poorly it worked before, and how unlikely it is to make a difference now.
Closing the barn door after a million plus assault style rifles are already in circulation is stupid.... it's useless... we should be working on real, effective background checks, stopping insurance companies from screwing us out of mental health coverage, school security.... things that actually have a chance of working....
From the Deceleration of Independence:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —
Now you see, the long chain of abuses the founding fathers had just suffered were caused by the rightful king of England. They wrote the declaration of independence to explain to all mankind why they were declaring Independence.
They wrote the Bill of rights (the key 10 rights we all share) to set a basis of the constitution and lock the major rights in place so all understood.
Now the constitution was written at a time where people knew and understood a lot better then we do what a government is capable of in terms of causing harm to The People. And the Founders knew that there was no way in heck the revolution would have been possible without an armed populace.
Right in the middle of the Declaration they specifically state "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
That is the Founders outright saying that NO Government can be trusted to always put the people first, they believe that sooner or later the revolution may need to be repeated. They specifically placed the second amendment into the Bill of Rights to ENSURE it would be safe FROM Government.
Hugs Help
Without mentioning the eating establishment, many years ago I became friends with a family that owned a very popular barbecue place in the south. I mean this place was always packed with customers. Realizing that the total number of dollars taken in was huge, they ALWAYS had an armed guard working at all times. He was a part of the place. Nobody felt bothered by it, and in fact endorsed his presence realizing a robbery or worse was always possible.
You can argue that he couldn't stop somebody like Adam, but his presence eliminated most of the threat from others. Adam is a nutjob that no amount of security is going to be able to stop as long as he was willing to take his own life. We have seen that over and over again in the ME with those willing to strap on a bomb and blow themselves up along with countless others.
I think the security issue should be realistic that not every case is avoidable and the point of increased security is to reduce the potential. That is the best you can hope for.
We guard and protect our president, our elected officials, people at malls, our airports and planes, etc. Look in my town, on Thurs, Frid and Sat night police presence down on the university area where the bars are located is huge. They literally block off streets to control the mob. What is the message there? True, they can't control all fights, or mayhem, but for the most part they keep the peace.
I agree we live in a dangerous world. It always has been and always will be. It only takes a tiny number of crazies to cause tremendous damage.
BTW, I don't expect teachers to carry guns. I don't expect them to learn to handle a gun, but it might be a good idea. If I was a teacher, I would at least familiarize myself with a gun so in case I ever had to use it.
Years ago, I was riding a bus in a city. The driver, a big black man moved his newspaper one day to show me his gun sitting next to him. It was illegal for him to have that gun on that bus, but he did so because he felt he had to try to protect himself and those on the bus. He didn't want to be a sitting duck. This was back in 1980. I understood his worry. He was facing reality. We need to face reality now.
One armed guard or defenseless children, teachers and principals. I would choose an armed guard.
I just love all the hyperbole that is coming out on this tragedy.
Ban guns, ban this, ban that, make all new laws. Put armed guards in school, don't put guards, bad idea.
What everyone is missing, and this is the core of the problem, the problem isn't with guns, it isn't with armed guards, it's about our society.
Guns have been around this country since it's inception, we have had schools, we have had bullying, we have had gangs, we have had criminals, we have had all of these things. And it just gets worse. WHY?
Where do we put the blame? We start blaming ourselves, as a society. We are too busy to be parents. We would rather put our children in front of a television to babysit, instead of acutally taking the time to be a parent.
Our justice system is a joke. We would rather coddle the criminal, instead of punishing them. Prison should not be comfortable, it should be a hell hole to go to. But NOOOO, thats inhumane.
We would rather pass laws that infringe on other peoples rights, instead of respecting them, just because we dont some particular habit.
We have become a nation of apologists, just because we are American. We have no national pride, saying I am proud to be an American has become tantamount to saying I am a terrorist.
We have become a nation that has no identity. We used to say, I am an American, now we say, I am African-American, Japanese American, etc etc.
Want to blame someone for the tragedy at Newtown? Look in a mirror, and you will find your answer!
Simple!
Most of the rest of the world has found the solution! NO DARN GUNS! Period!
"Maybe it's time not only to regulate guns and clip sizes but to regulate the news media too?"
LOL while I agree I think there are a few Constitutional issues with doing that on both guns and the media :-). But I do think the new 24 hour news and our country being somewhat celebrity driven it might be a good idea to tune down the News so that the next nut job doesn't think the way for him to become famous is to kill 40 people more than the last nut job.
No, we do not.
We pay police to investigate after the fact.... they are NEVER in front of a situation to protect anyone, regardless of that "To Serve and Protect" logo that sounds so high and mighty. They are not required to put themselves in front of a bullet for you, though many of them would do so, especially for a child. Go ahead, just ask them.... or better, ask an attorney.
You are delusional.
Best front line defense is a canine trained to detect firearms. They can detect them under clothing, inside backpacks, and can act as backup while a panic button is being activated and help is being summoned.
FYI: Your president and Congressmen who are yammering about the cost of armed guards in schools to protect your children have armed guards protecting THEIR children, even in their schools, 24/7, at YOUR expense. So do the actors making videos about gun control... they have armed guards protecting THEM and THEIR kids 24/7.
A piece of paper served up by the law never stopped a twisted individual from killing a woman who had a legal restraining on him... just ask their families, and you can start with the family of the teacher who was shot in the parking lot of her school in full view of students last year. She had moved several times to try and get away from him and he had been jailed a couple of times because he violated the legal paper that said, "Hey don't do that."
So, yeah, pass a law about gun control. Let's see if the crazy and criminal element abide by it. Good luck with that.
The article states "Federal funds for school safety — the Readiness and Emergency Management for Schools (REMS) project — were eliminated in March 2011. Now the money must come from local taxpayers." I wonder whose Idea it was to kill federal funding for our schools safety network… Hum… Could it be the same @!$%#s who decided that too much federal money was being spent to protect our diplomats overseas? These morons hate our government; they border line in sedition, they hate our government and want to “drown it in the bathroom sink!!!” But as soon as there’s a national, local, state wide catastrophe these very same ignorant individuals are the ones to beg, demand, and implore for government intervention. Well stop trying to destroy our government, it is not our enemy, individuals who want to destroy our government are the enemies and it’s about time that they’re treated as such. In the 2014 elections we owe our people,our nation the duty to vote for a working congress; such thing cannot be achieve with the obstructionist tea-baggers in place. So let's head for the polls just like we did on the last elections and let us vote into place a congress that's functional, that will work for the people not the corporations, let's fire every single teabagpublican't!!!!!
If the teacher unions would stop sucking money out of schools for higher than average retirement give a ways the schools would have the money to protect schools. The cities should have today, a police force that's able to get to any school in the city with in two minutes time while schools are open. That cost money school boards should budget for it, it's an added cost to the city. All doors in class rooms should be bullet proof and lock from the in side no part of the lock exposed outside that cost schools money too. Bottom line if you want schools safe the Teachers union is gong to have to reduce their demands for more money on higher retirement pay outs and allow teachers op out of paying union dues.
Remember that criminals, kooks etc are self absorbed COWARDS. A trained armed guard is a deterrent to aggression, as is an armed citizen.
PS.... a two minute response time is 118 seconds too long.
SUPPORT THE REPEAL OF THE 2ND AMENDMENT.
America will be better off without firearms and militias.
Wow, there are a lot of brain dead, sociopathic, NRA-paid ($7.25/hr) gun nuts posting this morning!
In actuality, gun nuts are anti-modern, childish cowards.
Since the NRA wants everyone to be able to by high capacity magazine assault rifles, they should pay for the damn guards in our schools, NOT the taxpayers.
Or, the NRA and the student's parents should chip in on the expense. Don't tax me more to pay for it. I do not have any children in the schools.
@clwyd-2621393
You're twice as likely to be mugged in the UK and three times as likely to be raped in Australia. Countries that have banned guns and have a diverse population have a ridiculous crime rate. The only countries that have banned guns and are fine are those that have a homogeneous population. Why do you think cities that have all but banned guns have such high crime rates (Chicago, NY, etc), and states with the least gun laws have the safest cities? Bad guys are bad because it's easy, if it was hard, they'd get a job. So unless the neo-nazis win and the US turns into a country only for whites (but I guess even then it wouldn't work, Europeans hate other Europeans), banning firearms will increase violence everywhere by magnitudes.
The words of a man with no skills?
Many schools, certainly around here, have already had not even retired, but rather currently employed police officers in the schools. Not so much at the elementary level, but most assuredly at the high school level. They have to, many of the kids steal, and get into trouble themselves... Talking Mercer county however, so this would be round abouts Trenton and surrounding area. I imagine Camden county probably has to have 5 cops in the schools there....
For many of us, the presense of security in schools doesn't seem as big a deal. And this wasn't just from a week back, it's been this way for years.... And it isn't just the threat of armed individuals either, there's also the thieves, the drug pushers, and other such matters as well.... Many of our cities and surrounding suburbs had come to this point in days past. What made Newtown, CT somewhat shocking for many of the locals there, was that it happened, there... I think many would have said that if they were talking Detroit, or some other location, they wouldn't have been as surprised, but in their small town community, they didn't think it could happen...
So the brilliant solution to gun massacres the gun nuts have is.... More guns? What? Am I missing something?
Let's turn our schools into free fire zones! That will keep the kids safe when they have shootouts in the elementary school!
Has anyone actually thought this through rationally and without an agenda bias to blind them from all that is common sense? Once they get into the school with a gun, you have pretty much failed at stopping them. So the solution is to bring more people into the school with guns? We can't turn our schools into free fire zones! And how do we know one of those other people with guns won't have mental health problems and/or go rouge? Has anyone actually considered the consequences of this besides the tired line of guns supposedly being the ultimate form of protection? A sick person could blow up the schools, too. Guns won't protect you from that. My word!
If you need security, the only way to do it right is police trained specifically to do the job. Otherwise you are adding gasoline to the fire.
@Nuadormrac
No kidding. I grew up in one of the safest cities in the US and even we had an armed police officer at my high school. The people complaining about armed officers must live in some crazy gated communities.
@God of Fate
By your argument, a plane could fall out of the sky and land on a school, so why bother, right? Screw it, why even have any sort of maintenance for schools when chances are a gas leak could occur anyway and blow the whole place up.
It's called prevention. Every inner city school and many that aren't already have police officers on guard. They have not had some crazy massacre. Please don't call other people irrational when you yourself go off on a tangent.
Regarding the post at the top of this thread - everything in America runs on money. There is no governing body of virtuous people deciding what is on TV; there is only the marketplace. It is "capitalism" and "free market," but it unfortunately means "play to people's prejudices" and "sell violence" and whatever else it takes to make more money.
The NRA is not driven by the good of society, it is overwhelmingly directed by gun manufacturers (a huge industry) trying to maximize its profits. NBC is not driven by the good of society, it needs ratings, so yes, it will show violent TV shows and anti-violence opinion shows. It is not hypocrisy because it is true to its purpose - make as much money as possible. Nothing else goes into business decisions, and they are all business decisions.
We need to look into Adam to make sure this is not a Benghazi event.
Also not related to the Aurora Theater.
We could be under attack and not even know it.
leave no stone upturned.
"Every inner city school and many that aren't already have police officers on guard."
There are people taking the NRA's suggestion seriously? You're crazy on two accounts. First, where is the money for 90,000 new school employees? Second, and more seriously, you are going to take 90,000 gun nuts who like semi-automatic rifles, place them in the middle of our schools, tell them all the details of its security, and leave them alone? Look - it's not much advertized, but every week somewhere a teacher gets discovered as a pedophile. Pedophiles are attracted to theindustry for obvious reasons. So too would those who get off on killing be attracted to getting a job as school armed guard. This idea that there are "good guys with guns and bad guys with guns" fails to note that good guys can turn into bad guys, or bad guys can fool school personnel.
Gun lovers are like pedophiles - they have an unhealthy fascination, heavy secret fantasy life, and they have a tendency to sometimes go over the edge and live out their fantasies. We should treat excessive love of guns as a dangerous mental illness and sick perversion.
@noncoms
What are you talking about? I said police officers. And they already are in schools. You trust police officers when you need them to save your life, but you don't trust them to protect your kids? Why do you folks arguing against this make it seem like they're just going to take random people off the street, give them a gun, and put them in schools? Don't you think that they would do some THOROUGH background checks and tests before they let someone with a gun near your kids?
And yes, just like the world, there are good people and there are bad people, I would sincerely hope there are more good people than bad. Do you hate every teacher because a handful turn out to be pedophiles? Do you hate every police officer because a handful are corrupt? Do you hate every gun owner because... oh wait, you do.
So... the answer is not "address the problem", it is treat the symptom? We have gone from a society where just a little while back kids could play outside and go adventuring on their bikes to talking about teachers carrying guns and police in the schools?
This looks to me like a trend I don't want to see continue. But how do we stop and even reverse the trend?
Well.. maybe we can start with reversing the notion that being selfish is a good idea. I read yesterday that the arguement against banning assault weapons is that the person couldn't shoot as many bullets before they had to reload.
Translation? I don't want to be inconvienenced even if it may mean that lives are saved. All of us in this discussion are adults, so of course we should take the course that is least a problem for us and just let the children suffer?
We are what we eat... If we raise our children in a "maximum security" environment where no one is safe, that is the world they will see as normal. And what will the ends of that be as this generation grows and assumes control? What are the psychological implications of children growing up surrounded by guns at home, in school, in cartoons, in movies, in games... just about everywhere?!
The zeitgeist has to change... We are walking backwards from civilization to savagery. We are moving back into the jungle but this time, instead of spears and clubs, we will have automatic weapons.
We watch shows about post-apocalyptic living... well, instead of avoiding it, we may just be welcoming it.
Visitor management is an easy first step, and relatively inexpensive. Anyone visiting the school reports to the general office first and signs for a visitor's tag which they display on their clothing - most government and many private sector offices already do this. The 'visitor's tag' is handed back when they leave. This is required of EVERY visitor, even parents picking up their children if they do so inside the school. Then if a member of staff sees an individual inside the school not so identified they lead them straight back to the office (or use some other means to signal the presence of an intruder).
@Moroni,
Why stop there? Let's repeal the whole constitution. It's what you liberals want.
In actuality, Liberals are cowards! Instead of standing up for themselves and being part of the solution, they turn to the government for solutions. that's working real well.
We have had guns in this country from the beginning.
By liberal logic, we need to ban guns because of a few. Well by that logic, we should ban computers, since a few people bully online and cause the suicide of others, or ban automobiles, because a few drink and drive, or they are texting while driving and kill innocent people.
You can't legislate stupid. Of course, it is everyone elses fault, thats our society today. Let's have the government fix our woes, the Democrat mantra. Its not the Democrats fault, its the Republicans fault. Got news for you, it's YOUR fault and mine. But you will never be able to look in the mirror and see where the fault lies.
The truly sad thing is Fuel, is that it took you this long to figure it, but at least you did figure it out. Good for you.
et. al.
All news outlets are slanted, it is only Fox that has a conservative slant. That is why is seems so "radical" to you liberals, because the MSM spews left leaning propaganda, just as Fox spews it from the right. So if you think you are getting moderate or centrist news, when in fact you are getting left wing stuff, of course it is going to make the rest of it look even further right.
And this is the real world, you know Capitalism. What the hell did you think they were doing? There first and only mission is to make money. You think the MSM actually cares about the "real" news? NO, ratings. period. Because ratings equate to advertising revenue, and that means profit. period.
If they cared about the news, they would have waited until the police had a statement ready about the shooting at SandyHook. And given hourly updates instead of interrupting a whole news cycle to blather incessantly about essentially nothing.
If they cared about the news, there would be in-depth stories. Has MSNBC even mentioned yet that Ms. Lanza was reported to have been in the process of having her son committed? Or does that distract from the narrative "We must Ban Guns"
YOU ARE WELL AND TRULY STUPID IF YOU THINK THE MSM IS NOT PUSHING AN AGENDA, IF YOU THINK THE MSM IS FAIR AND BALANCED....
I found out in 1979. My parents and a brother went to DC in the tractorcade during "Farmer's Strike". The worst blizzard in decades followed them the whole way there. When it got there, the farmers that had blades on their tractors pushed snow, cleared street (for free). the ones that didn't, hooked chains to firetrucks and ambulances and drug them through snow covered streets to get to the people in need (for free, it's a farmer thing) Do you know what the MSM reported. "Farmer Tear up the Mall" "Farmers Terrorize Police...attack several cops" (turns out the cops started it) Nowhere did we or the rest of the country hear about the help and selflessness of these farmers (it takes a lot of expensive fuel to operate those tractors, and any other protest group would have expected the government to clear a spot for them)
Get you news from more than one source and don't trust either. There is what the MSM said. There is what the Government said. and then there is what really happened. And remember when reading a story keep thinking to yourself, Is it POSSIBLE? and is it PROBABLE?
No comment, I just wanted to re-post an excellent point.
et al
So when you lemmings on the left want to sit down and have a reasonable discussion about sensible censorship of the media and Hollywood, about sensible drug control laws and punishments, about welfare reform, about Social Program reforms in general, I would be happy happy to sit down and have a reasonable discussion about gun control.
Or are all you just like His Majesty Himself, and you only want to talk about what you want?
I like that. Put a limit on the size and number of news clips. I see the same mob with the same comments carry their bags from story to story.
And I have question for you liberals, I keep seeing "when I was in high school posts"
When I was in high school, there were any from 75 to 100 high power rifles, shotguns and pistols in those "Redneck's" trucks (mine included) in the parking lot across the street from the school.
Yet we never had even a single incident, involving guns, even though there were several fist to cuffs. I wonder why?
@CogitoErgo
Kids can play outside all they want (unless you're in some horrible part of the city or there is a crazy person kidnapping kids). It has nothing to do with the current discussion. And why is it so hard to understand that there are already police officers in many schools, and have been for years? Are you folks living in Beverly Hills?
Are you defining assault rifle as anything with more than 10 bullets in a magazine? Refer to my post above, limiting magazine size will not prevent massacres, and there are studies that show that.
I think you're kids will be able to think for themselves, if they aren't on some mind altering prescription drug. The police officer at my high school was in charge of truancy and delinquency. If it wasn't for him catching me every time I tried to ditch, I'd probably have failed a bunch of classes and wouldn't have gotten into a good university.
And seriously, you make it sound like it's chaos in the streets. Violent crimes are at an all time low, sir. Stop panicking. Most gun owners know the difference between a real gun and one they see on TV and in video games. They have more respect for firearms than that.
Well if LaPierre is correct(and would guess he is given the grief he would get if he wasn't) It was Obama who killed the REMS project. You should have listened to his speech, you may not agree with him, but he made several valid points.
And no "they" the TEA Party doesn't hate our Government, they hate the wasteful use of tax dollars on social programs that fail to perform their advertised outcome.
And if you wish so strongly to live in a Socialist government, why don't you move to one, there are several in the world, why must you drag this one down with you, Teabaggee.
If armed guards in every school becomes the answer to this, the NRA has succeeded in destroying America to serve their agenda. The United States was founded on the idea that 'Rule of Law' was a citizen's protection against other citizens and the government, with force being the last option. The NRA's message of 'the law won't protect you or solve your problem, only a gun can' throws that ideal out the window. And if you think that our children in these armed schools won't absorb that message, you're fools...
Until America controls guns, guns will control America.
I wonder how many people are willing to stop watching??
@Desertmo
A police officer as a truant officer in a high school does not equate to police officers carrying guns around children in an elementary school... it does equate to calls for principals and teachers carrying guns.
I'm not advocating a repeal of the Second Amendment... But these "solutions" are miss guided. Solve gun problems with yet even more guns?
You are putting us back in the wild west... the path you set us on has everyone carrying guns and that is not a wonderful reality. We have no other choice? Arm everyone?
We can work to evolve past gun violence just as we did the notion of clubbing women over the head and dragging them back to our caves. It doesn't mean we have to get rid of all guns, but we can start by scaling back the content.
Movies can't reach the masses unless there is a huge body count.. Even Star Trek is decending to the level of an animated first person shooter...
Life is precious and witnessing the destruction of it shouldn't be "a good time".
What good does it do to ban "assault weapons"? They are used in a miniscule portion of all other crimes. Remember Lanza had two handguns in his possession at that school, so the "assault rifle" he used was redundant.
Banning "black guns" is just a feel good measure for dope smoking hippy pinko liberals. It will have no impact on crime, but it will be one more step in removing the final check in the system of Checks and Balances in our Government.
The intent of the Second Amendment
and
The original intent and organization of the National Rifle Association
are fine.
It is the mangled, self-serving, erroneous 2012 interpretation that is all screwed up.... to the detriment of a "civilized" society.
@Crazy Steve-1996926
Please, PLEASE give your speech about "Rule of Law" when you hear your window break in the middle of the night or to someone with a knife demanding your wallet. Don't worry, the bad guy will listen to you and realize he was wrong. The law only protects you from those that following the law.
Boy you really hit the nail with that one, I have only seen Fox reporting on the 'Cliff' negotiations, everybody else is still stuck on gun control.
Don't want to make His Majesty look bad with the Benghazi, Fast & Furious Developments, and Fiscal Cliff
Most break ins occur in broad daylight as I experienced in my nice neighborhood in Phoenix. Remember the family in CT whose wife and daughters were followed home from the store and then raped and killed? The father was a doctor. It was just a few years ago.
Anyone stealing electronics or whatever DOESN'T want to encounter the homeowner. The myth of night time cat burglars was invented to cover whatever murder was planned for a spouse.
Not handing over your wallet, contents so easily replaced, is even more foolish.
If I were a thief, approaching an angry old white man with a bad $2 haircut/combover, would be a signal that there was nothing worth taking, so you're quite safe.
There's the NRA/RWNJ response... 'there is no law'
When I hear my window break, I'll greet them with my 9mm; that's my right and in the privacy of my own home, no danger to the general public. In public, I'll use my head and not put myself in the position to be robbed. But our failing as a society to address the reasons why someone feels the need to break in or rob someone does nothing to fix the underlying problem, does it? Selling fear is easy; finding real solutions is hard.
jake2247, RI MomI., OHGuy, M. Moroni, Larry-2260635, Never Stop Asking Questions, alan3008, God of Fate, noncoms, cheetah-822547, Crazy Steve-1996926, CogitoErgo, haggisbingo-2225582
http://money.msn.com/investing/11-things-wrong-with-congress
As usual the very same people continue to post their non factual emotive opinions instead of Facts on Newsvine's "Get Smarter Here" to dumb down America.
So it is all good when Senator Obama stated, Police on every street corner (Chicago, Illinois), (American) culture of violence, etc..
But when someone else says the identical things then you demonize them.
If you are even going to talk about NRA, Firearms, Law Enforcement, Laws, other Nations, etc. at least learn the Basic Facts.
From your uneducated posts it is like you walking up to someone and saying that in American Football the definition of a Touch Down is kicking the football thru the uprights, that is just how uneducated your posts are.
Once again:
http://money.msn.com/investing/11-things-wrong-with-congress
Do keep up with the Adult Discussion and recent (Current) Events,
Those that also want to Repeal the "Stand Your Ground Law" have already stated their intent on eliminating the "Castle Law". The "Castle Law" is you in your home, apartment, place of residence, etc. using a Firearm or Weapon of Any Kind to protect your life, your family or relatives lives, and property; instead of fleeing or locking yourself (yourselves) in a room and notifying the proper Authorities. So nope according to them, you "murder" or injure someone using a Firearm or Weapons of Any Kind instead of Fleeing, YOU are WRONG and will be convicted with Homicide (Murder), Aggrevated Assault, etc.; this also opens you up to Civil Lawsuits against you from the relatives of the person breaking and entering your Home, Apartment, Place of Residence, etc., just as it was before the "Castle Law".
@CogitoErgo
The officer at my school was armed. He had a pistol on his person at all times and an "assault rifle" in his car which was parked on school property. And this was in a city rated one of the top 25 safest city in the US in 2006. In 1997, a school shooting occurred in Pearl Mississippi. The gunman shot up Pearl High School and was ready move onto another before the assistant principal stopped him with the gun he had retrieved from his car. There is no getting rid of guns, you agree to that. So I would rather schools be protected rather than shot up by these 20 something year olds that snap.
More people have conceal carry licenses than ever. I live in northwestern Washington and after the cafe shooting in Seattle, hundreds of people went out and got their conceal carry permits. You can defend yourself or be a victim. I'd rather not be a victim.
Like I said in the previous post, we are safer than ever according to crime statistics. Gun violence itself is half of the 90s. Society is not about to collapse because of guns.
Fiction is fiction no matter the media. 'The Most Dangerous Game' is required reading at like 8th grade and that was pretty violent. As movies and video games become more violent, crime has gone down instead of up. I guess most people know the difference.
Come on people, we can not provide safety for all, all the time! The schools can not be made safe unless we make them prisons, and even then there is a chance of violence! Perpetuaters can attack during arrival and departure times,lunch times, outside play, and during times that allow children to enter schools. They can also enter the buildings by breaking glass and entering, or they might attack a school that has outgrown themselves and have separate modules set up as classrooms. One of the easiest ways to protect our young is to allow teachers who are properly trained to carry a concealed weapon that follow the school districts training, rules and regulations! We can only try to do our best and should refrain from taking rushed reactionary measures, and make thought out proactive responses!
How could you imagine that the government can solve mental issues when, in fact, too much government is most of the problem?
@Crazy Steve-1996926
I follow the law, so do most of the country, I would assume, seeing as how it's not anarchy. When did I ever say there is no law? On a side note, I am not an NRA member and have no idea what RWNJ is.
Oh great, you advocate the use of deadly force against a criminal in your house but not for criminals in an elementary?
I'm sure it's easy for people to avoid muggers. Are you one of those people that also say it's the rape victims' fault they got raped?
Our country is built on inequality. There will always be those that are rich and always those that are poor, the privileged and the not. Someone, somewhere, will always turn to crime. What you're advocating is some sort of Marx Communism. Maybe some future utopia will be completely safe where the law can stand on it's own.
Someone tell that crazy guy named noncoms that 1 security guard would make less than 1 teacher. The security guard that was at my high school made $40,000 a year. That averages out to $225 a day at work. I had some teachers would were making over $80,000 a year in pay - plus insurance coverage and a ton of retirement benfits. My small school district of 200 students per grade spent well over $10 million a year on teacher's payrolls alone (that includes salary, insurance and all benefits). Plus they had to pay the principles, school administration, janitors, secretaries, benefits for retired teachers and so forth. And a $40,000 a year security guard is just way too much? C'mon people, don't be rediculous.
That's right, the answer is more fear and paranoia.
Is America a civilized society?
That's right do everything the nice criminal tells you, You should Google "The Carr Brothers", those people did everything those nice criminals told them too. While your at Google "Warren v DC" and see just how much 'Duty' the police have to Protect you.
You make an interesting point and I would like the liberals in the room to respond
As a cripple i.e "Handicapped Person", I can no longer run, and therefore flee. (and I have heard this argument before, "Why didn't so and so run away") What do you expect me to do? I know all you liberals are advocates of "the Handicapped" rights, do I have the right to defend myself against aggression?
Probably, the quickest thing that government can do is nullify all dope laws. People are repressing their anxieties to the point of losing it. They are screaming at us but we are not listening. The problem is too many laws but americans dearly love them. We think that elected officials are not doing their job, if they are not passing laws.
Did you know that we have more people in jail, per capita, than any country on earth? Are you proud of that?
fishman-1985527, #2.18- Thanks for taking the time to type all that out. It was GREAT to read it and you bring up a good point about 10 Rights. 1-9 are Individual, the 9th being the Individual's Protection in regard to at least the 14th Amendment; and the 10th being a Republican favorite called "State's Rights", but the part that is conveniently being misinterpreted about that is that "The State" is a self-governing body of The People, as a collective, (of the People, by the People, "for" the People) and IS NOT SEPARATE with its own Rights, as "State's Rights", that are not of the People, and MOST CERTAINLY NOT to be against them. Basically, there's no such thing as "State's Rights" that are not "Individuals' Rights". What is called "State's Rights" is REALLY SUPPOSE TO BE "of the Individual", by the Individual, "for" the Individual", AS A COLLECTIVE! The Right of The People (2nd Amendment) to keep and bear arms is in a well formed Militia (of the State....a.k.a...of The People...a.k.a....of The Individual). period IT GOT "BORKED-UP" SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINE OF HISTORY. AND Congress seems to conveniently DISREGARD that they are part of the PROBLEM Government and not separate from it and actually who it seems is most referred to in the Declaration that you posted. WE DESPERATELY NEED A NEW CONGRESS THAT IS "OF THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE, "FOR" THE PEOPLE!!!"
Locked vestibules. I want to know who is entering my Grandaughter's School. I don't need to know that she's under security camera throughout her school. An establishment of a "Security" Office (kind of like the Janitor's office that she could know about and be aware of being an integral and interactive part of her school) would be alright with me. If it were to be done NOT in an overreactively-overbearing way. The backpack thing is more than over the top and actually, I think, more harmful than good.
And I have to go now and watch a movie with my Son, but will try and check back later.
@ Desertmo
Try reading my comment again. Nowhere did I say we shouldn't bother to protect our kids. Don't put words in my mouth. I simply said that this more guns frenzy is silly and irrational. And it is. If you actually read my comment instead of trying to rewrite it, you would know that I also said the only thing that would work for security is police specially trained to do the job. But that isn't just blind more guns. I hear and read things from people up to and including arming the teachers as a solution. Neither is hiring armed guards. That's idiotic. If you need security, bring in the people who are supposed to keep us (as a public) safe: The police. But don't just blindly add more guns to the problem, because that only adds more fuel to the fire. That's what my comment was actually about. Try again next time, Desertmo.
"Make a start by banning..."
You're aren't supposed to scream your ultimate goal - but thanks.
@God of Fate
Gun frenzy? What do police officers carry with them? Guns. If a teacher wants to conceal carry, have them pass a course and take annual tests like police officers do. No one ever suggested take a box of guns and tossing them into a classroom. I'm a libertarian. I will fight just as hard for the second amendment as pro-choice for women.
If you want to stop the shootings, address the demographic that are committing them. But for now, secure the schools.
So there was widespread "disbelief" a few days ago when the NRA proposed armed guards at all schools, and now many school districts are proposing just that, huh? Go figure. Security cameras would be worthless. Metal detectors would be worthless; the person manning the detector would be the first one shot in that case. The idea of having a locked, screening vestibule at the entrance of every school is an interesting one. I don't think it would be effective, though, because there would be a large crowd of kids outside that vestibule as soon as the school day ends. That would be a tempting target for any psycho.
@I.M. Moroni, repeal the 2nd Amendment? Take away the right for everyone to have a firearm. My question to you, what do you do with all the ghetto thugs/gangs, drug dealers, etc who all have illegal guns? They are not going to give them up.
haggisbingo wrote:
Gee haggisbingo, I guess you didn't know that Columbine happened when the assault weapons ban was in place. Not too up on things are you?
Jeez, you 'defenders of the second amendment' either can't read, won't, or logical thought is completely foreign to you. You're totally tone-deaf to any discussion outside your narrow world view.
Did I say anything about repealing the 'Castle' law? Stop changing the subject and answer the question I asked, instead of selling more fear. And I do have a problem with the 'Stand Your Ground' laws, as that puts me at the mercy of paranoid morons like Zimmerman. Don't try to tell me that if Martin had been white in a black neighborhood and Zimmerman black that Zimmerman wouldn't already be in jail. And you would be loudly proclaiming that Martin's mistake was not being armed too.
Again, where did I say that? And as you are so fond of pointing out in all your 'statistics', display of deadly force doesn't always lead to dead people. And where did you get the idea about 'my' ideas for criminals in an elementary school? Where did I even imply that?
No I am not, and is this your best answer to other views?
Where did that come from? Were you asleep and drooling on your desk in school during history and civics classes?? You flat-out missed the 'All Men Are Created Equal' line in our founding documents???? I strongly suggest you retake these courses so you understand what America is all about.
What I'm hearing is simple-minded people giving simple-minded answers to complex problems. And at both ends of this debate I might add, although you second amendment wackjobs seem to be totally unable to think outside the box you've put yourself in. Yes, 'banning' guns won't work, but the answer to gun problems isn't just more guns. What you're saying to the majority of Americans who don't want to be armed (as is their right, and many shouldn't be armed) that there is no 'equal protection under the law'; if something bad happens to you and you weren't armed, it's your own fault.
Not the America I want to live in....
"Those of you that don't want armed guards or Police should list your name here so we know how much you love your kids!"
And people not wanting sensible gun control laws should list their names here so we know how little you care about your kids. The selfish want for more and more guns is killing this country. I don't give a f$$k about your so called "right to bear arms". When that "right" allows crazies to endanger the lives of my,and my friends kids,it's outta here.
Any of you guys that want hunting guns and maybe a pistol for home protection aren't the problem,as long as you take personal responsibly and secure them. But idiots that think anyone should be able to have any man or child killing gun available ARE the problem. Every other civilized society has sensible gun laws and only a tiny fraction of the gun murders we do. I'm so sick of the crazies and their right-wing politician lap-dogs standing in the way of our kids safety.
The "black-helicopter" crowd here seems to think their assault rifles and automatic pistols would stop a modern army if they came for them. They might want to ask the zealot fighters in Iraq how well that worked for them. While ied's took a toll on allied troops there. Every firefight between rebels and American soldiers ended with dead rebels. Try your rifles against an attack drone,or tank,good luck with that.
We have set back and let the gun merchants of death hold our country hostage, periodicity demanding their blood sacrifice.And instead of facing up to the facts,and getting a handle on our gun problem.Known in other countries as "the American Disease". We refuse to take any action,and let more and more guns become available. Now those evil idiots want to militarize our schools.And there are plenty of fools,worshiping their guns more than anything else,jumping on the bandwagon with them.
What we need are NATIONWIDE background checks,a NATIONWIDE ban on assault and automatic/semi-automatic weapons,and NATIONWIDE registry of guns.And mandatory gun safety courses for anyone owning guns. Would that eliminate gun murders in our country,of course not. But just like car speed limits,stop signs,slow zones,and traffic lights,don't stop car accidents,they do make them far fewer. Anyone that thinks rules on guns "interfere" with their "rights" and that is more important than saving lives. Then they are too ignorant to be allowed to own guns in the first place.
Talking with some friends,before the NRA came out with their "ideas" on how to stop the violence. I said I thought the commission the President set-up should invite them to join them. That they and some other pro-gun Republicans should join the discussion. That way they could help shape common sense rules that protected hunters and home protection gun owners.While at the same time making it hard for loonies to get hold of guns. But now that I see their solution to the excess of guns we have now,is MORE GUNS. I think they have nothing of sense to contribute.It still might be possible to get useful input from pro-gun groups,but the NRA shows they are so far-out to not be helpful in any way.
RI Mom ...(#2.8)..."Somehow a recreational and safety RIFLE organization"
Your interpretation..The NRA has always been about protecting 2nd.Amendment Rights..
"holding fast to semi-automatics."
A revolver is a semi-automatic weapon....every time you pull the trigger it is ready to be fired again...with the next pull of the trigger.....just like an Assault-STYLE rifle .....just like a non-assault-STYLE looking rifle....Scheesh ......
"Speed loads" make reloading a revolver take about 2 seconds...
Seems like many school districts were / are already thinking about the NRA recommendations.....
Plenty of schools already have metal detectors and require clear backpacks....
That is the point as I previously state those that want the "Stand Your Ground Law" Repealed have stated their intent on Repealing the "Castle Law", so go argue with them. They (Lawyers) don't see the difference.
There you go, "Guilty Until Proven Innocent". How about this look at the actual environment at both areas at Florida that Trayvon Martin was at (why do you think people were willing to lock themselves in their own prisons as "Gated Communities" at Florida, Of course you bothered to do your own research (NOT)):
Britons shot in Florida killed as part of 'gang initiation'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8459813/Britons-shot-in-Florida-killed-as-part-of-gang-initiation.html
"Innocent Teenagers" as your new "Normal". What was Trayvon Martin suspended from School at Florida for, why wasn't he investigate for being a Drug Dealer, and Illegal possession of two "40s"*(he bragged about on facebook to his friends, while talking about "deals" (prices of drugs and meets)). So why didn't US Law Enforcement start tearing a part everywhere Trayvon Martin had access to as well as interrogating his "friends" about the two "40s". Why wasn't the marijuana confiscated by the school tested to see if it was the common street "Amp" marijuana (turns people into violent paranoid "nutjobs", believed to be the cause of the Rudy Eugene Canibal Attack at Florida, recent warnings to US Law Enforcement and Psychologists).
*slang term for .40 caliber handguns (usually very expensive).
AMP: a new form of marijuana.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4055712
Teens shot and killed Pa. woman over cigarette, police say
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57558728-504083/teens-shot-and-killed-pa-woman-over-cigarette-police-say/
Out of all of the hyperbole, all of the emotional reasons pro or con, screminmimi @2.25 had one of the most cost and results effective suggestions. Armed guards are still just humans and have human limitations. Trained dogs are cheaper and far more effective at sniffing out dangerous guns or explosives than even the best trained professional is. Most any experienced criminal will tell you that they fear dogs far more than they do just facing a cop. Dogs also have much finer tuned senses than almost any human, and can be trained to guard against specific situations. This proposal is deserving of being thoroughly reviewed and implemented if the positives outweigh the negatives.
Canine units patrolling schools on a random and rotating basis would be far more effective and an economically feasible option than armed cops in every school. Bandaid proposals are usually a stopgap measure that rarely addresses the issues in an effective or financially viable manner. We need well thought out plans, not emotional or knee jerk ones.
You are assuming that the very vocal and publicized MINORITY is the Silent Majority that is Voting with their Money as First Time Firearms Purchasers.
http://articles.cnn.com/2008-11-11/justice/obama.gun.sales_1_gun-shop-brady-campaign-gun-owner?_s=PM:CRIME
By the way Crazy Steve-1996926 have you ever been US Law Enforcement (Local, City, State, Federal), Law Enforcement or Government Workers Union Member, etc. before. LOL. I got your naive "Equal Protection Under The Law". Go get some REAL World Life Or Death School of Hard Knocks experience, that your Academic Idealism will only get you a Darwin Award.
Desertmo, #2.79- Just quickly, I think you drew an interesting parallel between ferocity of defending "Pro-Choice" and the "2nd Amendment" because many times I've stopped to ponder and question what seemed like some kind of a jealously vengeful-like (copy-cat and payback-like) something in the projected adamant skewing of the 2nd Amendment and "intent". And it's interesting how "jealousy" is specifically mentioned in the Declaration of Independence, which is in post #2.18. Could be twofold, corporate greed and payback for Abortion Rights, something like that.
Just one of those "ah-ha, so that's what I've been picking up on for a while moments" that occurred to me after reading your post. Just sayin', that's all.
Heres how I see our schools and a safe program to insure our childrens safety by a very large margin.... Two unarmed guards with police radios and locked doors only to be buzzed in by the office pesonel after being searched properly by the guards.... Bullet proof front door glass and a large monitor for watching the guards and persons entering a school.... Signs at all entrances outside saying no entry and inside signs saying no exiting this door unless accompanied by guards of 2 staff members.... A panic button for the persons or people who watch those guards and a major response time for officers to arrive on the scene where a panic had been tripped even in error.... During the morning and evening rushes the guards will split up and be accompanied by school staff and 2 exits only be used to enter or exit the buildings for better control.... All other exits will be monitored and rigged so the fire alarm is tripped and the fire and police arrive on any scene where the doors are disturbed.... I'll bet most of these systems are near ready or already in place in many schools and can be easily converted for such use.... In cases where you may have campuses, just enclose the entire campus and put guards at the gates.... More violence occurs at many schools than should ever be tolerated....
warthog-213-984171, #2.90- much EXCELLENT and commendable! BUT, I still have only a couple of concerns, 1) it seems to somehow go "a tad" (just a tad, somehow) too far and 2) and this may actually be what "that tad" is housed in, I'm not hearing any consideration to how "the Students" might react to or actually be left out of the equation, as to "affect" on them. Basically, I have a lot of problems with the "Armed Guard" routine, as to the level that it actually presents itself, not to mention from whence it arises; begging the reaction,"KEEP IT IN YOUR PANTS, BUD!!!" Can we temper Mongering with some Subtlety and still acheive? I also liked what I saw in roadhead's? post, above, about "rotating" being incorporated. (and the only thing about Dogs being the main "piece" is that a Dog could be blown away so much more easily than a Human Being, just beginning with "Conscience"-wise)
I came back to this thread to add just a quick reference to my above post and to see if there was a reply. Thomas Moore, in Care of Soul, has a GREAT! and "THE BEST" synopsis on specifically "jealousy" and specifically how I was using it in my above post. (Like a War between Worlds, on a very deep "archetypal" level)
AND, since I was back here, anyway, I wanted to say "HOWDY"! to IWonder-932455, #2.90- Therein lies the problem, AGAIN, "MISINTERPRETATION". The role of Government IS NOT to cure anything, BUT, it is to REGULATE those who are purporting to do so. Goes deeper than that, too, but like I said, just a "HOWDY!", to you. (much is like putting the layers back onto the onion, right now, in regard to your reference to "the Crazies!!!!", No? :)
Why not just make Drug manufacture (a poison) and possession(supporting the production of a poison) a Capitol Offense, then we can exterminate this pestilence on our society?
I fit is illegal, let us make it Illegal...with consequences.
But if anyone can show, or tell, why is smoking marijuana, as opposed to using synthetic THC different? or am I missing something as it relates to medical use?
.
The problem with EVERYONES' response is that they are WRONG. All these solutions are for the heat of the moment or after the fact. We need to confront the real problem and that is violent people and violence in our culture. We must start recognizing that escalating violence from everything through some sports, video games, neighborhood gangs, home life, nasty bosses, acceptance of crimes like rape, abuse or abusive use (of almost everything) has become "acceptable." IT'S NOT ACCEPTABLE. We've become calloused to it. And when it comes back and bites us in the a$$, then all the blame and fingerpointing starts all over again.
What can we do? We can start by figuring out what is violent and quit watching it, doing it and/or accepting its existence. It won't be easy. We have a lot of it! Example: The shootings at Sandy Hook School. It's on every media page and picture. It's talked about and analyzed on every level. Some folks are really into the bloody pictures. What horrors! Some folks are so rabid that they have even interviewed Lanza's hairdresser for more insidious remarks! Yes, this disaster does need to be talked about and analyzed to help prevent it from happening again. What it doesn't need is a bunch of armchair quarterbacks escalating the already terrible situation. And the media must stop this bunch of foolishness of making things worse!
Example 2: Westboro Cult of Wishing Everyone Dead. They go about the country telling everyone that God Hates (choose any subject), and he wants more dead. Violence through a supposedly loving God who hates everyone? But the violence is again escalated on both sides. Most folks would be totally happy if a flaming meteor crashed into their church building during Sunday Services. The Westboro clan would be happy if everyone else on the planet was wiped out. Violence and more violence, one trying to top the other. (I'm not immune either, but I would prefer it was two meteors on the Westboro bunch, or nuked from orbit [just to be safe], but that's just me. It proves that ALL of us have a lot of work to do.)
We can confront the after-the-fact scenario of school protection, child safety, gun control, but it won't fix a thing. What fix is needed is "us." And it's never too early to start.
START HERE: 26 Acts of Kindness. If you don't know what it is, look it up. I'm on number 14. (And these are SERIOUS acts of kindness, not just some lip service to an ideal.) I'm actually working on 28, just because of the 28 dead that didn't need to be. And I'll probably go further. It's a starting place, not a finishing place.
VERY well said and accurate!!! The Phelps family should be in jail with their father!! Good and articulate post.
zapper, there is nothing in society that could detect this Sandy Hooks shooter. He was by all appearances an every neighborhood 20 year old young man. Just like those that are probably in your neighborhood. The problem was the obvious internal problems he was having with his parents or something else. We may never know what set him off but it could have been something simple like his mother telling he was going to have find a job and be less dependent on her for a living. I don't know but I do know from what I have seen about this case is that the "authorities" could not have done anything that would not infringe on his right for the pursuit of happiness guaranteed in our Constitution.
Now if a person has a record of mental illness like the nut in Arizona he could have been denied a right to process a gun. The problem is the NRA and state like Arizona that fights for people like him to own a gun. In fact if he had been denied that right by the gun shop and the government most likely all hell would have been raised about this poor man being denied his rights. You can't have it both ways. Either nut cases are allowed guns or a profile of a buyer be made before purchase. NRA is against profiling people before a gun purchase.
I disagree that this particular event was not avoidable. Adam's parents got divorced. Today we view divorce with callous feelings. Nobody thinks twice about it. We never think about the long-term trauma kids feel about seeing their lives turned upside down. We are a selfish society. Adam stopped talking with his father because he remarried according to those that knew the family. This is a big deal and happens a lot across America. There are a lot of very unhappy kids acting out after a divorce. We all know cases. It just so happens very few take revenge like this kid did.
This mother allowed her troubled son to surround himself with violent material. Stupid. What was she thinking? It wasn't that she had guns in the house, but that the games he played used those guns to kill and kill a lot. We aren't going to stop this filth from being sold, but we can try to change the culture that watches this stuff. It isn't just make believe anymore.
The mental health issue in this country has been screwed up since the 70s when liberal rights groups stopped allowed people to have others committed without their consent. I am sure many were committed that were just wrong, but throwing the baby out with the bath water was stupid. Do a google and find out how many state institutions closed up with these civil liberty groups applying pressure. So where did all these mentally challenge people go ? They are with us coping without help as Adam did. I do realize there were many reports of widespread abuse in these state mental institutions. I have no doubt about that, but instead let's fix it and figure out how to deal with those patients. What is the hope for them? Can they work? Can they live on their own ever? Just because somebody is mentally challenged doesn't mean they can't contribute in some way. Everybody needs to be kept busy and contributing otherwise they feel worthless.
This isn't just a gun issue. This is a mental health issue. This is a culture issue that embraces guns as if they are toys. Many of our elected officials even after the AZ shooting, still used phrases relating to gun use when attack the other side. This includes the president that recently released some fun photos that included a toy gun and the threat of terror with batman. Yes, I realize he was just goofing around, but why those photos?
Hollywood is now out campaigning against guns. They are hypocrites. They hired protection and that protection carries a gun. Many own guns, or carry guns, or live in a culture where guns are totally accepted. Hollywood says one thing and does quite the other. To be blunt, Hollywood has done enough damage to our society with liberal views that have weakened the family structure. I can't believe that anybody cares a darn what they say. These people live in a bubble as does Washington.
I am no fan of video games -- particularly violent ones. And I will not go to see violent movies -- why ask for nightmares?
But I do not think video games or movies are the cause of the violence we are seeing. If these kids did not have access to guns, they would not have been able to do what they did.
And yes, they are kids. People mature at different rates. Some 18 year olds are mature enough and responsible enough that they could be considered adults. Some 25 year olds are not. An article I read recently, The Teenage Brain, in National Geographic, pointed out that the mid-20s is the most typical age for young people's brains to reach 'adult' development.
I would guess that violent video games and violent movies are cathartic for some people -- watching that kind of violence or doing that kind of violence virtually takes care of a certain kind of anger and the need for 'action' that some people have. And I agree that for other people, who have lost the boundaries between fantasy and reality, it could be what sends them over the edge.
BUT -- without access to guns, they could not live out their fantasy as these young men have. Plain and simple.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/10/teenage-brains/dobbs-text
Why is the movie Django Unchained coming out on Christmas day???? A movie that everyone laughed and clapped about people (bad as they might have been) being murdered...
Why is it in cases of divorces with a troubled child, the mother gets full blame and the father (never have heard if he was involved or just moved on with his nice life) no blame????
@morrigan-1568233
Agreed about video games and movies. Most people know the difference between fantasy and reality. They can tell that a video game or movie is not real and they shouldn't act such ways in normal day life.
But troubled people WILL find a way to lash out. Since the media turn mass murderers infamous, people like Adam Lanza will keep doing what they do because they get recognition for it. At the same time that the Sandy Hook story has been happening, a man in China hacked up an elementary school with a cleaver. At least 22 injured, not sure on how many fatalities.
A straight ban on guns will never happen in the US, not with how our country is run. So some crazy person somewhere WILL get their hands on guns, and if schools are still gun free zones, they will target them and more kids will die. Adam Lanza killed those people at Sandy Hook with a pair of pistols, which already have close to 10 bullets per magazine. A 10 bullet limit wouldn't have helped the situation at all.
In 2000 I became a high school English teacher and couldn't believe what became of Space Invaders and Centipede.
Rape and mayhem and guns and theft and murder in a teen's video game?? I see teenagers everyday. They are funny and silly and bright, but their sympathy/empathy/sensitivity barometer is all jacked up. It's kinda turned it off or at least turned way way down.
I mean movies are one thing. You're somewhat detached from movies I suppose. The Lion King and Bugs Bunny are violent. But, a video game is literally in your hands . You make the f-ed up, violent choices FOR POINTS IN ORDER TO TO WIN. And the little sticker on the back (that says RAPE) means nothing to a kid. They will get an 18 year old to buy it and that's it.
It's a super irresponsible way to make a buck off a kid and their sometimes clueless parents and it contributes to larger societal issues that are getting worse by the year.
What has been done is called "Conditioning", kind of like the MK Ultra. Previously known a "Brain Washing".
Just like this guy believing that he was born to be a Prisoner and Guards born to be Guards:
North Korean prisoner escaped after 23 brutal years
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50136263n
The Pavlov's Dog Experiments being just like the rewards, instant gratification, bragging rights, etc. of the current Murder Simulators (Video Games).
The current US Environment reflected by the John B. Calhoun Rat Study and the very old computer simulation Hamurabi aka The Sumer Game.
The Use of Violence for Revenge at High Schools as the solution as condoned in movies like, 2010, The Final.
By the way do you know why many Nations do not have this problem. Simple at Age 18, Mandatory Compulsory Military Service with few exemptions at most Nations; but not the US. Yes, during their induction to Mandatory Compulsory Military Service the New Recruits are Psychologically Screened, this was also done with the US Military even during the Selective Service (aka "Draft"). Like I mentioned before to get around the World War II Unconditional Surrender Limitations of the size of the German Military, what the Germans would do is release those that have served their Mandatory Compulsory Military Service to the Military Reserves and or becoming either active or reserve Law Enforcement and in either case they own a firearm (usually at least a handgun), this is similar to the Swiss Military Model of Mandatory Compulsory Military Service, except the Swiss actually have everything from individual weapons (military firearms) to tanks depending on where they live (Swiss Anti Aircraft Cannon maintained by the old couple that owned the Hotel that I was living at, along with their individual Swiss Military individual military weapons (handguns and rifles). Their "neighbors" down the road had a Swiss Military Tank in a Swiss Military Built Concrete "Garage" that they were responsible for maintaining.). Usually, they (Germans, Swiss, etc. do not talk about this unless they know (trust) you and you belong to another Nation's Military, as they find it unusual that we (US) centralize our Military Forces on Bases that are easily destroyed or targeted; the Swiss couple mentioned that we (US) did not learn from the Pearl Harbor Attack.).
People that have Served in the Military, find out very quickly, responsibility, accountability, all actions have consequences, etc.; from Combat that they are not invincible, the killing is not all one sided, mature really quickly or die, and from firsthand personal experience become some of the strongest advocates against violence, War, etc..
Since most of you do not know (Declassified US War Department information). One of the Primary Reasons why most of the "Classified" Secret Projects and Programs of the US were located in the Southern US States was the automatic suspicions and distrust of "strangers" by the Residents of the Southern US States. The second was that at most of the Southern States most of these Southern State's Residents were already armed (that old stereotype of Southern Farmers with shotgun and rifle racks in the back of their old pickup trucks and a handgun in their glove compartment) and knew from experience (hunting) how to use their weapons (including weapons safety). The third was the Southern States Law Enforcement being suspicious of anyone what was not a known longtime Resident. And Finally, the US Military Armed Security external and internal to the US Military Bases.
Nope, Hollywood, News Media, Gaming Industry (Video Gaming), etc. will not cut off their own testicles (source of incomes) by stating anything adverse against themselves.
This country will never get rid of guns. Even after the tragedy at Sandy Hook, gun sales and ammo rose. Hear me out. Every high school has bully problems. And usually it's the guidance counselor's job to fix it. But, it doesn't. So, our local high school hired a man who is now the Dean of Students aka 'The Bouncer' who takes care of the bully problem. Instead of arming the principal with a weapon, how about hiring an ex-military aka Dean of Students, who is already trained for combat in more ways than we know. Ex-military could stop it before it ever could get off the ground.
This is not new:
On May 18, 1927, a part-time caretaker at a school in Bath, Michigan, killed 45 people, including 38 children, when he blew up a school and then killed himself, along with two first responders at the scene. Another 58 people were wounded.
The 38 children were in grades three through six.
The Bath School Bombing faded quickly from history. What media there was in 1927 left the town after about a week, since aviator Charles Lindbergh had started on his flight to Europe.
However, there are parallels between the Sandy Hook and Bath disasters that are worth discussing.
The killer in the Bath School Bombing, Andrew Kehoe, spent months placing explosives inside the school. He used his job as a handyman to wire together two types of explosives, in an elaborate plan to bring down the building while it was occupied with students and teachers.
Kehoe also rigged his car with explosives and shrapnel, as well as his house.
Once Kehoe blew up his own house, he used a detonator to blow up part of the school. School Superintendent Emory Huyck performed heroically, rescuing children and adults from the disaster scene. After about 30 minutes, Kehoe drove up to Huyck and motioned him over to his truck.
Kehoe then blew up the truck, killing himself, Hucyk, and several others, including a child who survived the first blast.
Investigators later found more than 500 pounds of unexploded dynamite under the school. Kehoe had intended to kill hundreds of people, mostly students, but his wiring was faulty.
Kehoe had financial problems and was upset about having to pay taxes. He had killed his own wife before blowing up his house.
But the parallels to Sandy Hook are not in the method and motivation behind Kehoe’s madness. They come from the stories of heroism and compassion.
Bath was a small town, so all pitched in to clear the rubble, find the victims, and offer assistance. Help streamed in from the neighboring town of Lansing.
Michigan’s governor arrived that afternoon and helped to cart away the rubble. During the rescue efforts, the Michigan State Police had to disarm the huge cache of explosives that never went off.
In the days that followed, contemporary accounts said more than 50,000 people descended on Bath, either to offer help or to see the disaster scene.
“Relief workers could not get in or out of the village unless accompanied by motorcycle policemen and even then they made slow time,” said one newspaper account.
In the end, the state set up a relief fund for the school, which received numerous public and private donations. One politician wrote a personal check for $75,000.
And the population of Bath, once the outsiders left, went back to farming and grieved. Unlike today, there were no 24-hour TV news cameras remaining on the scene or talk shows debating the merits of the Second Amendment.
But the wounds from the Bath School Bombing followed the survivors for generations. In recent years, people who were in the building were opening up about their experiences, as they reached their 90s.
In 2009, National Public Radio spoke with two survivors and the daughter of a third.
“You wouldn’t think a church member could do such a thing, would you?” said a 97-year-old man, Willis Cressman. “He was the caretaker of the school. In fact, I saw him that morning. He was working on a door, and he smiled at us as we walked in.”
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Huge school bombing in 1927 puts Sandy Hook in context
Cressman’s niece noted something that will also follow the Sandy Hook survivors throughout their lives.
“Years later, we still look at ourselves as survivors. So you look after one another differently, because you know that the absolute unthinkable can happen, even going to school,” said Johanna Cushman-Balzer.
The Bath disaster hadn’t been entirely forgotten in recent years.
In July, The Christian Science Monitor spoke with author Arnie Bernstein, who spoke extensively with Bath survivors when he wrote his book, Bath Massacre: America’s First School Bombing.
“When I came in, it had been eight decades, and nobody had talked about it. It was just this scar on the land,” Bernstein said. He also spoke with a 99-year-old woman who wanted to describe what happened to her young brother, who was killed in the explosion, so other generations could understand.
“Out of that horror, out of the one or two people who commit these kinds of crimes, comes the good, the tremendous good that you see in the wake of these things. Our humanity comes through in the face of evil and the inexplicable,” Bernstein told the Monitor.
According to a detailed website about the Bath disaster, only 13 survivors were alive as of October 2012.
The Mayor and Police Cheif of Milwaukee are against Armed Guards in schools, while they did nothing and said nothing while Armed Black Panther Militia members were intimidating voters at voting places.
makes sense right? votes are more important than student's lives.
and the result will be that more children will be injured/burned/killed because they cannot get out of the burning school building fast enough
Can't you see that TPTB want you to live in fear. Live your lives like it could be your last day on earth, one day it will be true.
Armed guards at schools are more likely not going to work. Fort Hood was heavily fortified w/ armed soldiers, and yet the shooter managed to kill 13. That said, considering what happened in Connecticut over a week ago. I certainly don't blame schools for wanting more security. So we'll see if the NRA. Who I never see eye to eye on anything. Are able to put their money where their mouths are. And fund for these security measures at schools. But something tells me the NRA will renege on their promise of making "contributions" to school security.
Violent video games. Violent sports. Violence in movies. Obviously has an influence on why America is and has always been neck deep in blood. But the one constant in all this has always been the guns. America from it's inception, has always been a violent country. From the genocide of the native American indigenous people to slavery to all the wars America' been involved with to all the mass shootings in public venues to the right wing militia's terrorist bombing of a federal building in OKC etc.. And America' fetish towards firearms is a strong indicator that this so called great Christian Nation has a Culture of Violence. And if I upset a lot of the gun nuts. I apologize. Well, actually I don't apologize. And I never will.
doolittle13 said:
First, what game are you talking about that has a sticker on the back that says "RAPE"? They have ratings, one of which is M for Mature that is intended for those 17+. Otherwise, I'm not sure what you're talking about.
Second, the game companies are not doing anything irresponsible to make a buck off of kids. If an adult (parent or otherwise) decides to ignore the restrictions and give that type of game to a kid, it is their irresponsibility causing the problem. Parents being clueless is not excuse, especially now. You cannot imply a ban on games because someone is stupid. In fact, you cannot censor anything just because someone might circumvent the guidelines.
'Our minds' react.................that is why we get 'scared or sad' at movies. The better 'we respond' we are told the better it was 'fooling us'. We must be logical and tell ourselves 'it is only a movie' even though we may have reoccurring nightmares. For some, 'it will be a high' that is why they are obsessed with playing the games over and over. We are told 'kill him' 'get him' 'kill him' 'there is one over there' making a tense excitement. The mentally ill will get bored with this and need to go shoot 'for real' and in their minds, that have been trained with a violent action game that looks SO SO REAL.............and this problem will CONTINUE and CONTINUE until 'the mental health awareness problem' is addressed and regulated. But punishing all gun owners, that have followed rules and obey laws is a very socialist move that will cause get problems to even try to attempt.
What have we become because a few hard heads insist on free access to weapons designed solely for killing other people? Every single proposal for regulations to assure responsible gun ownership or restrictions on assault weapons is met with the utmost resistance. This latest massacre of young school children and teachers rests entirely on their shoulders. Gun control and responsible regulations would have been in place decades ago without their nonsensical pact with gun manufacturers and the Holiest Church of Deadly Weapons called the NRA.
Their cowardly denial of responsibility for this horrific act of terror is only answered by proposals that even more weapons of destruction are needed. Armed guards and ten foot concrete walls should greet our elementary school children. Can't afford bullet proof glass? Then block up the windows. Section off portions of the school with steel enforced doors with armed guards to allow entry to only sanctioned school officials. Does this mental image remind us of another government institution? It should. We call them prisons that contain dangerous criminals instead of innocent school children.
They blame Hollywood and video games for the extraordinary violence in our lives today. I tend to agree with them to a certain point. Those violent movies and video games of years long past may have convinced the many weak-minded and loyal members of the NRA that more and more guns are the only answer. Normal people of average intelligence know that it is all only make-believe. You won't find us armed to the hilt in dreams of becoming the next "Rambo".
We only need to take a look at the rest of the world's civilized nations and follow their example. They have much stricter gun control with a much lower crime rate. They seldom experience the horror of mass murder of their innocent schoolchildren. It's past time to take our country out of the hands of the crazies. The price has repeatedly been far too high.
Do not listen to them about how the barn door has already been opened. Pass strict laws and regulations concerning responsible gun ownership. Offer a short period of amnesty to those in possession of illegal fire-arms that surrender them, with serious penalties of imprisonment for those that don't. Never buy the argument that only criminals will then possess all of the illegal fire-arms. England and Germany have proven that restricting dangerous weapons to the populace also restrict them in the hands of criminals.
I refuse to acknowledge a single demand from gun nuts to provide links to prove my above comment. If you are reading this and able to respond, you have the internet at your command. Look it up yourselves and prove that I am wrong with reliable sources. We remain the most dangerous free society on Earth due to your madness. May God forgive you. I can not.
I don't read posts longer than 6 sentences, sorry.
The AR15 is not legal for deer hunting in my state, too light, just wounds 'em. It's been around over 50 years. Since January 2000, 2,400,000 Americans have purchased an AR15. That's 200,000 more AR15s each year out there. Few people know where they all are today, except we know 2000 were sold by the US Justice Department to gun walkers and are scattered among Mexican drug cartel.
Please don't say that. Now you will get loooooong rambling sentences that never end.
I like how everyone else thinks that what they think is best for them is best for others. That somehow what Tom wants, dick and harry want too and if they happen to disagree, they're nazi's, whack job child molesting satan worshippers who obviously have sexual relations with infants. It's that lovely heard mentality of people thinking that they can make grand sweeping gestures and assume that everyone wants the same thing and damn them to the lowest depths of the 9th level of hell for disagreeing.
scott-579755,
Haven't read many books or news articles lately? That would likely explain most of your dis-information. Fox News is only propaganda filled with lies instead of facts. A little comprehensive reading may enlighten you. Before I lose you with that dreaded sixth sentence, I would urge you to turn off the television and take an adult reading class for dummies. Good luck and goodnight.
Commonsense101:
Your entire rant is immature and moronic.
It begs the question. You assume that that current gun laws and regulations are ineffective. If you have any verifiable evidence to support this claim please present it, otherwise, your opinion is worthless claptrap.
Secondly, You assume that gun laws and regulations will assure responsible gun ownership. This is the thinking of a confused twelve year old child. Gun laws and regulations will assure that fire arms are purchased by persons that pass background checks for previous psychological and criminal offenses.
Gun laws and regulations will assure that the weapon is properly registered, and that the person buying the weapon take the required courses in gun safety and usage. Gun laws and regulations do not guarantee that the person buying the weapon will remain sane, or will not use the weapon to commit a crime.
Gun laws and regulations do not assure that the gun purchaser is any more responsible than any other citizen, accept in the use of the weapon. Gun laws and regulations can not assure that the gun purchaser's son will shoot and kill the gun purchaser, take the gun purchaser's weapons and murder 20 children and 5 professional educators.
You ask that rules and regulations, written on paper replace an individual's knowledge of right and wrong. You ask that rules, written on paper replace an individual's mental stability. To ask these things of the written word, is absurd. These things must be asked of sentient beings, who are able to reason with the written word.
You blame an organization that defends every American's Second Amendment rights for doing what they are meant to do, but you refuse to accept the blame for the part you played in the death of innocent children.
What happened in Newtown is the result of a sick society; a society that you are part of. When you observe the violence that has become commonplace in our culture without protest, then you are saying that you willingly accept it. It is the culture of violence that is killing our children. It has been killing our children for fifty years in African American and Latino communities, and now you have finally noticed it. Clearly, you can add hypocrite to your list of social shortcomings.
If you were serious about protecting our children, then you would be a willing advocate for everything and anything that shielded them from harm, not just the NRA. All you're doing, is paying lip-service to the problem by trying to shift the burden of proof for your idiotic arguments onto the readers.
You are morally obligated to support your arguments with verifiable evidence. To ask the readers to look for the evidence themselves is intellectually disingenuous.
26 acts of kindness will not stop a gunman from killing your child.
Only an armed guard or teacher will be able to do that.
I don't believe that we can require teachers to bear arms but, I don't believe we can prevent them from doing so either, at least there is no longer any way to justify denying them of their right to self protection.
We have invited these deranged murderers into our schools and turned the schools into shooting galleries by failing to provide protection and by allowing deranged people to roam our society freely. Turning the entire nation into the same type of killing field only invites our enemies to do the same with all of us and that is the real reason for the second amendment.
America does have enemies who would be all too happy to own and operate the worlds breadbasket and any opining to the contrary is Pollyannic insanity.
Muskets were the penultimate in ballistic technology at the time the Constitution was adopted and the founders would disagree that anything less than the best technology available today would be enough to defend ourselves in a firefight... that is what we all have the right to.
If you want to be safer in your own home and country buy a gun.
If you want a true friend and ally buy a dog.
China and Russia are not your friends.
Arkius
Wow, so your condemning rebuttal offers no moral obligation to support verifiable evidence of your own claims? You now stand as the accuser with nothing but useless rhetoric to explain or excuse yourself.
When the sworn testimony of a witness comes into question, it is the prosecutor's responsibility to discredit the testimony with solid proof of false testimony. Simply calling the witness a liar will always resort in a mistrial or contempt of court charge against the prosecutor.
My only moral responsibility is to see that schools remain educational institutions instead of fortified institutions where students huddle in fear. Accomplishing this only requires that we remove the tools that threaten their very lives despite the mad pleas of zealous owners, proponents and greedy manufacturers of these deadly tools.
Guns used for self-defense and hunting wild game with effective regulation similar to driver's license requirements and automobile registration may prove to be adequate. Maybe not. Anyone that suggests these measures are too extreme are too stupid to realize that irresponsible deadly fire-arm owners are at least as dangerous as irresponsible automobile owners and drivers. When was the last time an unlicensed driver in an unregistered automobile deliberately murdered 20 elementary schoolchildren?
I respectfully and dutifully rest my case.
An armed guard, a sheriff's deputy who was trained and ready, was on duty that day at Columbine High School. Twelve kids died anyway. Armed guards in schools will not end this nightmare.
We need an assault weapons ban, pronto.
Not true, Larry. The shooter was withdrawn and apparently unable to function normally. He didn't work or go to school, had no friends or social life to speak of, was estranged from his father and brother, and reportedly had not spoken to his mother in days before he killed her. He was hardly your average neighborhood 20-year-old.
There are always signs. We just need to learn to recognize the signs and act on them. His mother died because she failed to act in time.
A correction: there was no toy gun in those photos. The little boy was wearing a Batman costume and the President was pretending he'd been caught in Batman's web. There was no gun, just to set the record straight.
Commonsense101:
Your screen name is misleading. You neither have, nor do you offer any common sense.
You have no common sense, because you are unable to distinguish accusation and subjective opinion from argumentation, neither of which require verifiable support.
I accused you of begging the question, and I explained your assumption. You lose.
If you believe that I’m proposing an unsupported argument, then you are obligated to cite it, otherwise, you have no case.
Recall that you argued that the NRA blocked “responsible regulations […] decades ago.” You claim to have common sense, then by all means show us your intellectual acumen.
Tell the readers exactly what “responsible regulations” were proposed and exactly when this happened, and exactly what the NRA did to block those “responsible regulations.” Then apply some critical thinking and explain how those missing “responsible regulations” would have prevented the murders at Newtown. You are the witness proposing “sworn testimony,” you are morally obligated to supply verifiable evidence to support your own claims. You now stand accused of responding to arguments with useless rhetoric to explain or excuse yourself. Put up, or shut up.
You are intellectually bankrupt. You have not addressed these issues:
1) Gun laws and regulations will assure that the weapon is properly registered, and that the person buying the weapon takes the required courses in gun safety and usage. This is a common sense explanation of a general concept (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws _in_the _United_States_by_state).
2) Gun laws and regulations do not guarantee that the person buying the weapon will remain sane, or will not use the weapon to commit a crime. This argument does not require proof, because it is just plain common sense.
3) Gun laws and regulations do not assure that the gun purchaser is any more responsible than any other citizen, accept in the use of the weapon. This is my informed opinion, based on the information I read under federal law and my state (See #1).
4) Gun laws and regulations cannot assure that the gun purchaser's son will shoot and kill the gun purchaser, take the gun purchaser's weapons and murder 20 children and 5 professional educators. This is what actually happened; it is in the news. Are you current with the news?
5) You ask that rules and regulations, written on paper replace an individual's knowledge of right and wrong. This is a summation of your arguments, it does not require proof.
6) You ask that rules, written on paper replace an individual's mental stability. To ask these things of the written word, is absurd. These things must be asked of sentient beings, who are able to reason with the written word. This is a summation of your arguments, it does not require proof.
7) If you were serious about protecting our children, then you would be a willing advocate for everything and anything that shielded them from harm, not just the NRA. All you're doing is paying lip service to the problem by trying to shift the burden of proof for your idiotic arguments onto the readers. This is a summation of your arguments, it does not require proof.
Your analogy of the unlicensed driver is irrelevant. 26 people were killed by gunfire, and not by automobile.
Trying to shift the burden of proof for your idiotic arguments onto me or the readers, remains intellectually disingenuous.
Your continued avoidance of addressing the above seven issues will be viewed as morally reprehensible.
Kaybee, you wrote: "Armed guards in schools will not end this nightmare." You should be willing and enthusiastic to do everything to protect our children. Singling out assault weapons only addresses one aspect of the protection issue. Moreover, your argument is a slippery slope.
Just because it didn't work in one instance, doesn't mean that it is unworkable, or that it should be discarded out of hand. On-sight, armed gaurds are on duty in 30% of the schools in America (Craig R. Whitney:Living With Guns, November, 2012). You also claim that all the signs were there if only someone had noticed. Don't be absurd.
By your own admission, Adam Lanza was withdrawn, and was therefore, mostly at home with his mother. If "he didn't work or go to school, had no friends or social life to speak of, (and) was estranged from his father and brother, and reportedly had not spoken to his mother in days before he killed her," then who else was there to observe his behavior?
His mother may have believed that his behavior was not unusual, because he reportedly showed signs of withdrawal and depression on many other occasions. If this is true, and there is no reason to believe that it isn't, then can you please explain how his mother, a non-psychiatric/psychological professional, is expected to determine when one set of symptoms is different from another set of symptoms? For you, looking at the event after the fact, everything is clear. For her, it was just another week in the life of her and her son.
Unfortunately, we will never have the testimony of Adam or his mother to help us shed any further light on this event. All we have is worthless, subjective opinion.
WRONG! Our gate guards weren't armed until AFTER this happened. You spreading untruths is what's wrong with our society. I don't want to shoot you, but I do want to punch you in the mouth for your lie.
I'm trying to find a nice way to say things, but I cannot, you're a dumbass for thinking that just because we're a military post we're heavily armed. We are not. I'm going to stop here because your ignorance makes me want to vomit.
a Washington, D.C. area private school, has 11 armed security guards and is apparently hiring an additional police officer because Sasha and Malia Obama attend there.
So I guess his kids deserve protection but the rest of our kids don't, funny how that works.
Every Governor has armed protection, most Senators, even a large number Mayors have armed protection, the same ones calling for more gun control but not for their protection personnel, why is that.
Robbob
Don't be stupid.
As the children of the President of the USA they have a bulls-eye on them. That is why all Presidents and their families have protection, as do former Presidents. Even Presidential candidates do.
I don't know, i wouldn't feel comfortable with a group of people watching over my kids in what basically comes to a concentration camp that lets out at 3pm. Locked doors, armed guards? What's stopping the armed guards from losing their grip on sanity and not using their access to the classrooms to start knocking off a classroom or two. Everyone is so firm on the idea that if we put this to a vote and we allow some guy to guard a school with a gun or allow a teacher to be armed that they're the bastions of sanity and won't ever harm anybody.
Let's repeal the tax exempt status on the NRA
petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/revoke-non-profit-status-national-rifle-association/8cK8gcFW
copy and paste into your browser
Let's not. The NRA is compiled of parents who want to protect their kids too. The NRA works to protect YOUR 2nd ammendment rights along with every citizen in this country. You are out of touch with the violent culture of today. I'll do whatever is necessary to protect my kids in school. Since I have a CWL, I'll even volunteer.
We need to be VERY careful here.If we allow the government to do away with one ammendment,other ammendments will surely follow.
Welcome to the George Zimmerman school security seminar...
The second amendment is brought up a lot in defense of the no ban on assualt guns. The Supreme Court ruled that the amendment is not absoulute. Most people want the assaualt weapons banned but not all guns. Why would an ordinary person need an assualt weapon? Not for target practice I am told by a gun expert that goes to a gun range all the time. So the argument using the second amendment makes no sense in the case for assualt weapons.
Please read the 2nd Amendment again. It states that we have a right to a well armed militia that does not infringe on individual's rights. Here is a pretty good explanation of the Amendment:
However, there have been many court cases where the rights of individuals have been limited. Reasonable and rational gun control is definitely in order. The last 3 massacres all involved the AR-15 Assault Rifle.
A well armed militia is our state's National Guards units. The problem with pro gunners is that they take everything out of context and spread it in their churches and cults to mean that we are trying to strip them of their rights to gun ownership regardless of what was actually said and the sheep in their churches and cults take it all in vein and spread the lies to the rest of their families and or any one that will listen. I do not believe in the history of our nation that there has ever, even once, been a bill voted on to take away their right to own a firearm other than assault rifles and limit clip capacity.
In my family, I have a person that said they were voting for Romney because Obama said he is going to take away the peoples guns and he cant be allowed to do that. I asked who the hell told her that and she said her church talks about it all the time. I shook my head and simply said, "so much for your belief in God's love and protection", and walked away.
I agree drjill! Guns don't have to be banned. They should however be strongly regulated. They need to me more aware of the black market and enforce already made limitations. If a person has a child with a mental disability they should not be allowed to PURCHASE a gun.
Wryobserver You are wrong in so many ways. First, what is your problem with George? He will have his day in court and until then he is innocent. Your the type that sits on your mighty horse judging people by the lies and propaganda that are spewed by the media. Most likely the same type that wants them strung up, raped in prison or what have you.
Many sat here on MSNBC a while back spewing the same crap about the Htaree group after info was posted here about their arrest by the FBI on like 75 to 100 charges. Well their cases all except 3 of them were thrown out of court with a strong reprimand ffrom the Judge against the FBI.
Listen I would much rather have parents doing the patrols because the last thing we need is the Gov or Police with more power. Every thing they do is usually based around a power grab
Very Wrong MIKE, have you actually ever read the Declaration of Independence, Constitution(all of it) and yes this does include the Bill of Rights
From the Declaration of Independence:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —
Now you see, the long chain of abuses the founding fathers had just suffered were caused by the rightful king of England. They wrote the declaration of independence to explain to all mankind why they were declaring Independence.
They wrote the Bill of rights (the key 10 rights we all share) to set a basis of the constitution and lock the major rights in place so all understood.
Now the constitution was written at a time where people knew and understood a lot better then we do what a government is capable of in terms of causing harm to The People. And the Founders knew that there was no way in heck the revolution would have been possible without an armed populace.
Right in the middle of the Declaration they specifically state "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
That is the Founders outright saying that NO Government can be trusted to always put the people first, they believe that sooner or later the revolution may need to be repeated. They specifically placed the second amendment into the Bill of Rights to ENSURE it would be safe FROM Government.
If we are going to do history lessons let's really get in there.
Fishman,
"If we are going to do history lessons let's really get in there"
Have you ever read the history of the birth of our nation?
How can, as you say, the Constitution is based on the Bill Of Rights when it was written over a decade after the Constitution ? The Constitution was basically an operating manual for the structure of the new proposed government addressing division of powers and electoral processes, terms and limits. The Bill of Rights ( or the first Ten Amendments ) began to address the concerns of the actual population. The Founding Fathers knew the United States of America was a work in progress and things would change. Abolishing Slavery was a fight that would not come for almost one hundred years as many of these Divinely inspired gentlemen were slave owners themselves.
Well times have changed . If you are so self deluded that you think that the American People are going to organize and get behind one banner on anything , RISE UP and topple the Government using semi-automatic weapons against tanks, drones and the ever increasing national security net...... you need to wake the f@#k up.
So rather than ensuring only competent,sane and rational people are armed with hand guns and standard rifles by licensing and registrations, with severe punishment for illegal weapons ( the ones held by unregistered, unlicensed criminals ) you want an armed presence wherever you turn and limit free speech. That sounds exactly like the kind of world our founding fathers were against.
The human race IS INHERENTLY A VIOLENT SPECIES and we have evolved technologically much quicker than emotionally.... unfortunately.So to protect us from ourselves is necessary. Assault weapons need to be banned along with ammo drums and mega clips. If you want access to these types of weapons join the military or law enforcement. They will be using them as they take back all the illegal ones from a deluded population who think they will be needing them at Valley Forge II.
The vast majority of mass shootings are with standard hand guns so what do fascist liberals want to do? Ban assault weapons! Could your real agenda be any more transparent? In both cases an assault weapon was used, the shooters and handguns as well.
NOT ONE KID WOULD STILL BE ALIVE HAD THE ASSAULT WEAPONS NOT BEEN USED. The same with high capacity magazines, no difference in deaths.
Knock off your fascist gun grab, it isn't going to happen.
Porrohman, wryobsever, heidi-6712632, Mike-424215, drjill, SUIII,
http://money.msn.com/investing/11-things-wrong-with-congress
Ok, then you pay out the arse for someone else (like Million Dollar US Security Contractors) instead of the inexpensive NRA to train Firearms Safety, Marksmanship, SWAT, etc. to the US Law Enforcement at Police Academies. As well as pay someone other than the NRA to teach Firearms Safety, Reporting, etc. to Schools for Free as the NRA's Eddy Eagle Program.
BUT OF COURSE YOU KNEW THAT ABOUT THE NRA, Porrohman , BECAUSE YOU ARE OR HAVE BEEN US LAW ENFORCEMENT BEFORE OR ARE NOT TOO LAZY TO RESEARCH THE FACTS.
Most Nations including some Dictatorships have repealed their "Guilty Until Proven Innocent". How about you joining the KKK Lynch Mob's "Guilty Until Proven Innocent" and "Guilty based on looks (appearance)".
Your post indicates that you have NO idea what a REAL Assault Weapon is, the typical emotive uneducated "well it looks like".
And do not even know about the US Supreme Court Ruling pertaining to the Unconstitutional D.C. Anti Gun Law.
Read the US Supreme Court Ruling pertaining to the Unconstitutional D.C. Anti Gun Law.
And then what did President Obama's Political Appointee US Ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, propose to the UN as a US initiated UN Resolution pertaining to Firearms (that does violate the US Constitution).
How about you read the US Supreme Court Ruling pertaining to the Unconstitutional D.C. Anti Gun Law. You too SUIII.
During the US Supreme Court considerations of the D.C. Anti Gun Law the Historical Perspective was considered in that the Founding Fathers KNEW the difference between the Individuals as the "Minutemen" (shopkeeps, merchants, fur traders, hunters, farmers, etc., no uniforms, Asymmetric Warfare) and the "Well Organized Militia" (Colonist's Militia, Uniforms, Conventional Warfare, predecessor to the States National Guard) as "TWO SEPARATE AND DISTINCT ENTITIES".
As the Individuals as the "Minutemen" held off the British Regulars (British Military) after the British Generals Cornwallis and Henry Clinton had seized the Colonist's Militia's Armories before the start of the "War of the Colonies" (American Revolution).
Without any weapons the Colonist's Militias along with the Founding Fathers fled to "the Hot Bed of the Revolution" Philadelphia being chased as Traitors by the British Loyalists, Bounty Hunters, British Military, etc.; while the (Individual Firearms Owners) "Minutemen" fought the British Regulars until the Founding Fathers created the First Continental Army (after the Founding Fathers stopped arguing about funding and who would lead the First Continental Army).
Proof you know nothing about History SUIII, nor Warfare as Conventional Warfare or Asymmetric Warfare:
Do you even know why Valley Forge occurred (almost defeat of the First Continental Army). I am not going to spoon feed you, then have to change your full diapers. It does take some cognitive reasoning skills and cognitive research skills to figure out. Hint: Why did the American Revolution even start.
This guy was 100% correct:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57547353/david-mcculloughs-heroes-of-history/?tag=contentMain;contentBody
I can think of 26 deceased individuals who would disagree with you. Having retired law officers volunteering to patrol school grounds is a step in the right direction. However, that is a temporary patch. Security barricades, cameras, and locked doors are not going to stop someone who is determined to get in and is not concerned about getting out.
The only long term solution is to implement programs to recruit volunteer faculity members who are willing to carry concealed weapons. These volunteers will have to complete a training course, much like police cadets do and to recertify as police officers do. It's the only way to have armed first responders on campus, who can react in seconds and not wait minutes for the police to arrive. The teachers union is against this but I think that individual teachers would be more than willing to sign up.
Jan, I was thinking along the same line. Many buildings already have fire doors, doors that automatically close when the fire alarm goes off. It would not be difficult to wire them to close when a "lockdown" condition occurs. If used in conjunction with security cameras staff could remotely open or close depending on the situation. As far as arming teachers, I have not seen mention of non-lethal methods yet. Perhaps some staff having ready access to bear spray (not that wimpy pepper spray) or stun guns? And a security officer in schools might not be bad, if implemented properly would it reduce drugs/gangs or thefts that occur in schools? I know I don't have all the answers but with some brainstorming rather than finger pointing we can come up with some practicle solutions.
The last thing I want is a retired law officer with a gun my kids' school!
I would have thought the last thing you would want is a deranged person barging in & trying to kill your kids; choose one or the other.
Didn't Columbine have an armed guard?
Jan one of the school districts here in Texas (I believe it's Harrold county) have exactly what you're talking about since 2005, they've never had an incident, it's like air marshall's no one knows exactly who is armed. To be fair the reason they implemented it is because their closest law inforcement is more than 30 minutes away. It's all volunteer, the staff who are armed do it voluntarily and no one is forced to carry if they don't want to. Yes, theyre all trained and recertify all the time. Us Texans may be "crazy gun nuts" but in reality the last "school" shooting we had was UT in 1966, we must be doing something right.
Hey, why not also encircle every school with a 10 foot concrete wall that is topped off with coils of razor wire and has an armed guard sentry manning a Watch Tower at each of the four corners. Having all the kids wear a standard Black and White striped school uniform would also be a nice touch...
You need to see Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. A child's learning is deeply affected by chaos and violence. Concealed weapons adds to that confusion and chaos. School zones should be safety zones. A simple analogy would be that if a child picks up a rock and throws it at a classmate hurting the other child....one does not give the other child a roc and instruct them to throw it first. The weapons are removed so the children feel free to reach their fullest potential in their academic careers. Until we change this culture of violence, using many different strategies, the violence will continue. We need to begin changing to a culture of kindness. Check out the Practice Random Acts of Kindness site. They have free things for educators!!
Armed security is just dandy as long as the problem is not someone shooting up a classroom. The shooter could shoot the armed security first, end of his resistance. If guns were the solution explain the 13 dead and 30 wounded at the Ft Hood shooting. A military post, the same scenario, the first one shooting with an automatic or semi-automatic weapon does the most damage. And like Colombine the perpetrators didn't plan on going to Disneyland after it was over; they expected to die in a hail of bullets and 'glory.'
Is NBC going to keep running this story till they encourage a copycat shooting???
I don't think we're at the point where we need a have a gun on someone's hip. But I do think schools should have some sort or active defense (a gun) to go with the passive defense (locks). There should be a gun in a locked safe somewhere in the main office and maybe another somewhere else in the building which a gym teacher or custodian could get to (Lanza started his rampage in the office). If a teacher or administrator wanted to carry a concealed weapon on there own accord then I would consider letting them also.
I of course don't mean just a handgun. A attacker would most likely be encountered roaming the halls or trying to break through a locked classroom door. A terrified office secretary wouldn't be able to hold a handgun steady enough to hit anything at any range. I would instead suggest some easy-to-use small caliber semi-automatic carbine. Even a near petrified non-gun person could easily get it done with that. Training would take about ten minutes.
If I was a parent and was worried about the security of my kids while there were at school then I would insist that all classrooms be lockable from the inside, that all the locks be in working order, and that the school keep one or two Bad Guy Extinguishers on hand.
You think schools are peaceful places of learning and shouldn't needs guns? I agree. But, if you haven't noticed, the whole world is going to hell. We actually need things like this now.
@Will Miller
Are you aware that all military bases in the united states are gun free zones? The Fort Hood shooter was and he picked the area of most destruction. None of the soldiers were armed at the time of the shooting and the shooter was actually stopped by the responding police department.
"The last thing I want is a retired law officer with a gun my kids' school!"
Why's that? So they don't find your pot as has been done?
@Will Miller
Steveo8 already answered your question, but good god, sir, that was the first thing anti-gun folks brought up. Gun free zones are prime targets for people looking to do the most damage.
As for Columbine. The officers on scene were not trained or prepared for such an event. They weren't even inside of the building at the time of the shooting. Every police district have school shooting response tactics now.
wolf: Might want to consider that all the amendment were additions to the original 'sacred' document, including the 18th. Amendments aren't 'forever' - except for those that benefit from them - whatever their agenda.
By implementing this pie in the sky, armed guards at ALL schools, the NRA is encouraging another event....the one where the guard is the FIRST one killed before the rampage begins. What will be the solution then?
Same previous arguements about US Military Guards at Amories, Nuclear Weapons Storage Sites, etc., the whole purpose is to delay, until the reinforcements show up. In this case, just like those measures previously at Nuclear Storage Sites, the Armed Guard is behind Bulletproof Glass (similar to some current US Embassies).
That other uneducated post about children escaping during a fire, is simple, just like the US Embassies, push out metal grills over the windows (same at homes at high crime rate areas).
Ban and make Illegal Stup!d; just like the StarTrek Vulcans did before they almost wiped themselves out.
We protect OUR MONEY with an armed guard, why not OUR CHILDREN?' This is a GREAT IDEA because 'teachers do not want to have the worry of a student getting their gun, they want to teach' and 'the students' will have some safety with an armed police officer at their school. Many students are 'in fear to go to school'.....'ARMED GUARD is THE ONLY ANSWER' and must be PUSHED, our children are MORE IMPORTANT than OUR MONEY and our money already has an armed guard!
Actually, banks don't have armed guards anymore. Technology is the deterrent to bank robberies. But bank robbers don't commit suicide.
Hello, Will Miller?
Do you have the balls to respond to Steveo8?
If you are referring to the one retired sheriffs deputy who worked at Columbine and carried a gun mainly for his own protection... he was off campus, eating lunch and monitoring the "smoking pit".
There were no armed guards charged with the task of protecting students and teachers in the way that is being proposed now.
The title of the first article is "Intellectual Dishonesty"... apropos your "argument".
beforeitsnews.com/opinion-conservative/2012/12/intellectual-dishonesty-columbine-had-armed-guard-guarding-smoking-pit-not-inside-school-2546084.html
www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/columbine.cd/Pages/DEPUTIES_TEXT.htm
you have no argument against security in schools and you have not made a point. Furthermore even the most draconian gun laws imaginable will not reduce the need for such security measures.
Hopefully Obama will understand the situation as it is and not attempt to deny us our second amendment rights. The framers of our Constitution understood things differently and even argued that every citizen ought to possess a gun at all times, both for protection of oneself and ones country.
If you are decidedly liberal you might be surprised by his response to this issue. In the meantime chew on this...
“A free people ought to be armed.” – George Washington
“The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed.” – Thomas Jefferson
“Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms.” – James Madison
“To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them.” – Richard Henry Lee
“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined…. The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun.” – Patrick Henry
Thank you, BobbyGordon... Few people understand what the above quotes really mean or are all about, just as they do not understand that we were once a Republic, but that "we the people" gave up our Republic for a Democracy; government rule which the people only have the right to vote which side of government rule they prefer. Democracy is not a Republic in any sense of the word, it is a slippery slope to tyranny and eventual dictatorship. Disarm the people, and make sure government agencies and agents are highly armed and/or stocked with arms... This is a recipe for tyranny. In the words of Shakespear's Puk "what fools these mortals be."
Schools aren't the only places gunmen can target children. Bad guys can achieve much the same effects at amusement parks, summer camps, theaters, and other settings likely to offer high target density. Protecting schools and not these other places would be like locking only one door to your house.
Exactly. And don't forget the work place. Any large office needs an armed guard too. It's not just schools.
Armed guards? Seriously? Do we REALLY need to threaten our children to prevent an outsider killing them?
If you give one of those old prunish farts a gun, you'd best make sure they still have the brain to use it. You Southern Baptist Oh-God-Is-Most-Almighty-King-Ruler-Of-America-Hail-Westboro-Baptist-Church types fail to realize that screening of this nature isn't perfect, right? That means one old coot is going to slip through the cracks, and if you diss his Jesus King God, you'd best hope you're safe after death.
But then again, I don't expect the elderly to have a brain capable of reason. There's a reason the word "senile" and the complimentary phrase "senile old fool" exists.
NRA wanting to turn this place into a police state? Fine, but at least let me bust a cap in his skull first before you do.
Hatred and extremism need to go the way of the devil - its mere existence makes people like me say @!$%# like the above bolded issue.
Y'all were those hating against a police state, but then here you support BS like this? And you wonder why the world laughs at a nation of ever-dominant white trash such as us (yes, I include myself in the mix - because even I've been guilty of hate in my life).
There was also a certain person 'round this site, I reckon. They'll probably make a declaration that local authorities will be alerted to arrest me (since idgaf about this issue), but as last time, nothing will be done, because s/he ain't got the balls to make that phone call (and the FBI/Police haven't got nothin' on me).
You are one to be worried about Crimson; you don't even need to be evaluated; you just need to be isolated.
Exactly how are our children being threatened Crimson? I'm pretty sure there's not been ONE instance of the armed policemen that patrol the schools in my district "threatening" any of the kids, and we have two posted at every school.
@SGFitzWife - Maybe I'm overgeneralizing. That would explain a great deal. Then again, when LaPierre goes off on a tangent and starts acting like the fraternal twin of Jack Thompson, I do tend to get a little personal (especially since the above-mentioned types I listed have made no qualms about what they think of me and my family).
And of course, my reaction might've been a tad overkill considering my phobia of the cops (handcuffs are bad enough, but woe betide me if they bring a gun into the situation).
@Buddy - In what way, shape or form do you have any friggin reason to worry about me? I'd be more worried about an angry swarm of wasps I would about myself, 'specially when you consider how law-abiding I am (half the crap I say here I'd never follow through on anyways - I'm too much of a nice guy and a wuss to seriously consider it).
Thats what I was thinking! What about at concerts? So many people there! And malls? Those security guards are hardly security! They act like schools are the only places that need to be secured. These places should have been secured years ago...when the crime rate was higher.
@Raygirl - I can name far worse. Compton and South Central LA are never safe. Then again, California has a crime problem of its own that's far worse (I wouldn't know the situation outside that as I've never seen outside that area myself - living a sheltered life is terrible for one's empathy training).
crimson: Then again, there are the counterparts........immature, ignorant, sophomoric, childish, self-absorbed, naive.
Milwaukee Area Technical College, at their Mequon Campus has a history instructor named David Racer who, on the first day of school claims that he, "is the benevolent dictator" and he also has a Comunicable Disease that the deans and teacher's union knows about.
Putting a gun in his hands would be like lighting the fuse on a bomb.
He is abusive to the students, and many file formal complaints of abuse against him,(I did too).
The Teacher's Union helps him keep a job that he is not qualified to have.
allowing teachers to carry loaded guns would be as dumb as re-electing Obama*, and would increase the truancy rates nationwide.
Cujo:
Thorazine. Look into it.
At least 1 poll seems to agree with some of what the NRA said.
Gallup polled on how people view the effectiveness of six different responses to the Dec. 14 incident at Sandy Hook.
The ranking out Wednesday: increasing police presence at schools had 53 percent of those polled saying it would be very effective; increasing government spending on mental health screening and treatment would be very effective (50 percent); decreasing the depiction of gun violence on in on TV, movies and video games (47 percent).
Coming in fourth was banning the sale of semi-automatic guns and assault weapons (42 percent); followed by having at least one school official at every school carry a gun for the school’s protection (34 percent); and the news media refusing to print or read the names of the person responsible for the shooting (27 percent).
Thirty-six percent said banning semi-automatic and assault guns would not be effective, compared with only 12 percent who said increasing police presence at schools would not be effective.
yeah, Qxzsmith, the world has ended the Mayans were right...look at how crazy people are? Everyone is desperately looking for solutions and in the heat of trying to control our environment, we end up being the slave to it. The best way is to let crazy gun killers know that they don't scare us...we going to live life as usual. We're not going to let one incident be the determining factor for every incident.
But somehow deep down, I don't feel having someone armed that is responsible is a bad idea. I work in the schools. And there are many crazy people coming in and out. The schools need higher security. They need a gun man to scare the bad little kids into shape. They need a guard to assess situations that arise. Hey, sometimes you have to do what you have to do. And the guards can be discrete, they don't have to be flashing their peace everywhere. But just be there. Now having teachers armed? I'm not sure. Some teachers are just as crazy. But if they can designate teachers who seem responsible,I don't see why not...as long as a student doesn't magically discover it and take it.
More guns in more places is the answer to gun violence? Where does that take us, ultimately? Mogadishu? Peshawar? The good guys ramp up their firepower, the bad guys do the same in response.
Personally, I won't live in an armed camp - whether it's called Somalia, Pakistan, Bosnia or the United States.
The United States Supreme Court struck down the Washington DC gun ban because, "Gun Bans Are Unconstitutional". The same is going to happen in chicago and the murder capitol of the usa, (Chicago) will have a decreasing crime rate within the first year.
Joe "gun ban" Biden(D) and Diane"granny" Feinstein(D) are still trying to fool enough people into going along with another "assault weapons ban" even though the last one made No difference. The Fast and Furious assault weapons conspiracy, which resulted in the murder of a Border Patrol Agent still will be investigated and the guilty persons will be prosecuted. Executive Privelidge does not last forever.
Proof you are Uneducated SDN what were the Laws pertaining to Ownership of Firearms at Somalia during UN Mission Somalia II aka Operation Continue Hope. What have been the Laws pertaining to Ownership of Firearms here at Afghanistan and at Iraq or Pakistan.
Those are perfect examples of, "Only the Bad Guys have the Guns", that resulted in massacres of the sheep like you, or at the very least at gunpoint fingers, hands, noses, eyes, ears, arms, feet, removed.
Putting arm security in schools won't work. How many security people are needed in each school for it to work?
You want your children growing up in a police state? What are you going to do if one of those armed security people snaps?
You want to ban guns? Well if you do, your going to turn selling guns into a big money maker for criminals and smugglers who will cash in like they do with drugs.
A typical American reaction to over react without thinking through the consequences their actions might have. Your demanding that our country be turned into a police state and you still won't have gun control.
Fools. Be careful for what you wish for, you just might get it as the troops for Obama's new military Police Authority are being trained now. A military police Authority whose Authority isn't restricted by Constitutional protections afforded to every citizen.
You're losing your freedoms and you don't even know it.
That is pure paranoia. Where is your evidence? This is the type of delusion that we, the general public" are worried about. What will YOU do as a result of your thinking?
Yes, we are slowly loosing freedoms and rights, ie the Patriot Act. If you recall this was enacted by Bush. These are the things that we should be more concerned with. No one is advocating, at least right now, the repeal of the Second Amendment. What should happen is the banning of all semi-automatic weapons from the general public. One could still go hunting but the danger of a mass shooting is then eliminated.
stevenB
6 years as School security. Oh here we go its Bush's fault again. If you were informed you would know that Obama has signed Bills into law that are the Patriot Act on steroids stripping you of Constitutional protections.
Oops, your an Obama supporter and its unreasonal for me to expect that you would be informed.
You want proof, if you can your lazy ass to do something, look up the military funding Bill Obama signed into law on December 31. 2011. It created his new military police Authority. Troops have been getting trained to man it for the past year.
Or stay uninformed. I'll bet the house and barn that you choose to say uninformed, after all you are an Obama supporter that enjoys the bliss ignorance brings.
@what happened - That's funny, considering I've heard very few (if any) cases of white people being arrested, and this administration seems to act as if they've got a brain (Bush's brain was filled with nothing but "Honky-Tonk Long Live White Folk"), meaning that they don't make as many errors as Bush did.
You can cry "Benghazi" all you want, but when you compare 4 deaths in that incident to the millions of our sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, fathers and mothers who died fighting a meaningless war in Afghanistan and Iraq (a war which, oh, you Repugnicants are agreeing with me in saying we shouldn't even be there) - then I really think your hatred of Al Qaeda and your wounds of the first 9/11 incident have made it all too easy for you to blow that incident completely out of proportion (acting like 4 American lives are worth a million soldiers whose lives were ended or ruined completely).
And just to clarify, I'm one of the people that fits a majority of the subjects LaPierre covered (honestly, he's starting to sound like Jack Thompson the Second) - I'm a gamer, I'm mentally ill, I watch movies with guns in them, I listen to media outlets.
But y'know what? I'm different than Adam Lanza - I don't really want death upon anyone. I want semi-auto and assault weapons to be banned. It shouldn't take a 10 clip pistol to kill an armed assailant if you're a good shot (and if it does and you are a bad shot, then I apologize in advance for laughing at your obvious incompetence).
Obviously, these problems start at the parent level. The Newtown shooting had an obvious problem for anyone who could see it - the mother was an avid gun collector. That's scary @!$%# right there (and as if that weren't enough, she didn't leap on the chance to get help for her son when the opportunity presented itself).
So there's one of two problems here - either parents are doing a @!$%#ty job parenting or the kids themselves are problems in and of themselves.
And on a last note: I'm rather happy we have Obama instead of Mormon Emperor Romney. Get over it - your little sac of corporate scandalist bleach lost.
"What Happened" You've now told us what won't work; how about telling us what you think will work. And while you're at it, have some respect for the country that tolerates you & turn the Flag the right way up on your profile picture.
What happened's flag is correct right now, you put it upside down when your country is under duress, at this point we are and have been for quite a while.
THOUGH, I must say everything else he/she has just written was kind of out there, for the most part. Yes our freedoms are beingn stripped (starting with Bush's Patriot act going right into President Obama's Patriot Act on steroids)
for the record I'm a Libertarian (I believe what happened is too) so the Romney Obama thing doesn't work on us. But I also must say that What happened you're giving the rest of us a bad name, no wonder they think we're loonies.
Crimson it's very obvious as you've already mentioned that you're mentally ill, that sucks, I wish you could get the help you so desperately need but unfortunately our government is too busy bailing out banks, auto industries, and other countries, that you'll just have to wait for Obamacare to kick in and hope like hell that mental health is included.
edit: I stand on the armed policemen in every school it's worked very well in our school district here in Texas.
I agree with the armed policeman in every school...it works great here in Colorado, where it is implemented.
@SGFitzWife - I hate to be so brazen as to ask for this, but can we include "optimal" mental health care (actually, let's just nick off the "mental" part and be done with it)? Half the time I feel like the doctors taking Medicare aren't even interested in the overall wellness of their patients and are just milking my time for their annual paycheck.
Some doctors, I swear.... They really don't deserve the pay they get.
@Buddy - Holy hell, I hadn't noticed the reversed flag.
Hey WhatHappened, can you do me a favor and go give Satan a blowjob? When you come back maybe I'll consider hearing what you have to say. Oh wait, I forgot: White Trash Extremists don't have any potential for rational thought.
@SGFitzWife & GodBless: Regarding armed policemen, I got my education in Southern California (while I currently live in Oregon), so I can't say for certain whether the following would be accurate (especially considering my opinion would be of a 90s-early 2000s era student body):
If you pulled that @!$%# in my turf, there'd be a mock civil war, given how gangster ridden and hate-filled that place tends to be (especially the often-sung-about cities of South Central LA and Compton).
As someone who'd hate to have my old home soaked in blood, I'd kindly ask you to reconsider. There's gotta be another way that doesn't involve Crips/Bloods and Cops fighting each other.
P.S. On a final note, I would just like to say I hate politics. Just shove a can in it already and start playing nice.
Crimson- Get A Life. Stop trying to use the race card...Of course white people get arrested. Remember it's always better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool then to open it and remove all doubt.
NRA wants to put armed guards in schools fine I say TAX all guns,and tax bullets..after all they taxed cigarettes off the market,and now we should tax the @!$%# out of guns.you taxed on your car reg. that's OK nobody crying about that .every year you must have to pay a gun tax just like a car.
@Pheonix - Race card? That's funny; I'm white myself so using the race card would be kinda counterproductive and hypocritical, wouldn't it?
And I never did specifically mention any "race" when I made my rant. I was speaking from my heart what I've experienced (and I also believe I put a disclaimer saying that my thoughts may be blown totally out of proportion given that it's been a long time since I gave a damn about what anyone feels about the world - and as such am kinda uneducated in regards to social norms).
Also, "get a life"? As if you know a damn thing about me, you heartless spawn of Bertha.
@Richie - I wouldn't mind that. In fact, that'd probably be a great idea.
There's just one problem: The vocal minority pigs in the NRA'd never stand for it. They're comrades of Norquist, remember?
The Mayor and Police Cheif of Milwaukee are against more security in schools yet they said and did nothing as Armed Black Panther Militia members intimidated voters at voting places on election day, and in plain sight of news cameras.
As a result of sexual harassment of women officers and the adultery by the police cheif with a married woman, the Police chief got a 4 year extension of his contract instead of firing him like he did to other officers who did the same things as he did.
Democrats do things backwards.
No one seems to stop and ask why so many teenagers, 20somethings are doing this. Why can't we focus on prevention on the real front side? Killing the killer is all fine and dandy, but you're just gonna make more paranoid psychotic wackos putting an armed officer at the gate and using a bunch of expensive equipment that folks like the NRA want your schools to buy. What we really need is some real helplessness. Helplessness has an effect of its own.
I think the real reason these guys go bonkers and kill everyone is evident. Some people don't make it out of adolescence without a real need to hurt the people that hurt them. Some boys are tortured daily by their schoolmates. Sometimes teachers and parents help. Sometimes they don't.
Let's look at what happens to a good kid at school today. Let's say it was me. People think you're corny. People think you're weak. They find things to do to the weakest person to make themselves look good. The good kid goes years and years taking it in stride, crying, wrigning their hands, and feeling helpless in the face of so much careless psychological abuse, and snap. They finally decide that they can't take it anymore, and they won't take it anymore and they go get a weapon and start mowing people down.
I remember the yearbook at my school taking votes on "most likely to go postal," as we used to call it. We used to think that only postal workers went nuts and rampaged through town with a sawed off. Well, the real problem isn't guns or the media or the schools, really. The problem is, we leave our best and brightest out in the cold for their formative years, and after the 500th time they're threatened or beaten up outside chess club, they go postal. It's true.
Now to the real tirade. You people are so blind to what our culture means. We can handle violence, just fine, because it desensitizes you, and that's not what makes you go postal. It's what you do feel. There are good parents and teachers out there for the downtrodden, but sometimes that person is just so unlikable, so socially retarded (I meant that) thaqt they literally have no hope of reproducing. We give nothing to those who work hard and manage to make a good go at it but a free lunch if they're poor, and a degree. That seems adequate if you don't want to start giving away free money, but what do you do in a society where the one thing that keeps people sane is the one thing you avoid talking about in public? I'm talking, of course, about sex. Gobbs of porn everywhere and everyone's incredibly unattractive. 20% of your school is porn star material, 75% just want to get laid, and the last 5%, if left to their own devices will just give up and move on, probably removing themselves from the gene pool voluntarily, without a fight that is.
But there is a miniscule addendum here. .0001% just can deal with it, and we aren't helping them. They have few friends, they are quiet, and they would like to be treated like the rest of us, but we have no social resources we are willing to share at a young age. I found a lot of solace in older folks' company growing up, and it was hard buddy. I had plenty to eat and a car and my parents paid for college, but somebody, everywhere is last. Somebody fails almost every time they try something, and it piles up after a while. Eventually you don't want to try anything anymore. You're tired of being at the mercy of the boss, the teacher, the parent, the police, the folks who not only dont want to make friends, but openly ridicule others. I had to go to college for 3 years before I found any semblence of dignity in this world, and life goes a lot slower when you're young. I made it, kinda, but hey, who doesn't dream of killing a bully at the school except the bully? Who doesn't want to mow down their math teacher when she yells at the whole class when one person screws up.
The real problem is, some of us eventually give up on a basic sense of dignity, and that's linked directly to justice. Our society has become unjust, and many of us pulled out years ago. Why invest yourself into something that removes it's promise the second you come to collect? Kids know it too, because we don't shield them at all from it now. They aren't sick from bloody cartoons or gory horror movies. They aren't waiting to turn 18 to buy that ar15. They're too sarcastic for 8. They're too snide for 12. They're fully aware of being @!$%#ed by the time they're 15 and they are really pissed about not being @!$%#ed when they're 20, see AIDS, unpopular, ugly, afraid, and then find the ones I forgot. Our jobs or not jobs are @!$%#ing us right now, our government is being used to @!$%# us, see boomers retiring without paying for anything. We're @!$%#ed, and it's common knowledge.
So don't give me anymore about this guns and media bull@!$%#. A locked up gun can't kill and no one kills to be Swartzeneggar. They kill because they start to feel like the ones they will shoot deserve it. They kill to get back at the ones who left them alone. They kill to get back at the people who gave them life but gave up on their developement. They kill because society has left them in the dust. They kill because they have no friends to stop them.
My children attended a high school that had a police officer in attendance at all times. He was very helpful and his presence was a deterrent, and they had no issues. When my daughter's life was threatened by an infatuated young man, he intervened quickly and effectively, while the teachers and assistant principal laughed it off. I recommend the presence of a police officer. I also recommend closing campuses, keeping kids onsite for lunch, and not permitting anyone in or out of the buildings all day long, as it was when I went to highschool many years ago.
We must also re cultivate a respect for the inherent dignity of life.
Perhaps each school should have the nuclear option available as we progress further into our domestic arms race.
What a moronic post.
@Greg - Nuclear?! *facepalm* For Crocell's sake....
I know you're bed-buddies with Hitler and all, but would you mind not advocating genocide?! There are plenty of people who don't take very kindly to the whole procedure (myself being one of them).
@Buddy - I couldn't agree more. Where do they get these blind mice anyways?
I took Greg's post to be pure snark.
Many inner city schools have had security in place, check visitors for weapons and have had locked doors during classroom hours since the early eighties while chools in more affluent neighborhoods in the subarbs do not ...... Have you ever heard a news story about a mass shooting of children at an inner city school?
I read where kids have smuggled guns into those inner city schools. Give it a break. There is no excuse to give up a freedom the Constitution provides to you for something that can't be controlled.
Detroit public schools have a police department and we have never had any mass shootings.
http://detroitk12.org/admin/dpspd//
jdmbo3
They never had a mass shooting at the elementary school either. Isn't also true that Detroit has the highest murder rate in the country as a result of gangs having illegal weapons?
Is it Detroit or Chicago what? I'm going to go look ;)
okay this is too funny let's see if anyone else notices....
http://www.bet.com/news/health/2012/02/01/chicago-has-highest-murder-rate-in-the-u-s.html
(hint: look at "other cities")
Oh and what, you were correct that Detroit tops it for 2012.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2012/10/18/detroit-tops-the-2012-list-of-americas-most-dangerous-cities/
They ignore the Facts. They just like to spout off meaningless jargon and call people names.
Yea, without security there, the teachers would be killed by the students. This points to a severe people problem that is out of control.
There is no ,one answer to the problems. Every school will have to decide what they need. Some teachers will not train how to shoot period. Some who will train,will never be good at it. for those of you that don't think times have changed,You better wake up,and do it fast. If those of you do not want your children to see "sidearms" Home school them. It is all about the "Home education" anyway. Parents just don't spend enough time with their kids. The one's that do ,don't talk to them about life and how it really is. Educate the kids on guns and waco's out there. Just as you would teach them not to talk to a stranger,or do not get in a car with a stranger. Now it is time to teach them that "some children have bad thoughts and do bad things" Once we have the parents trained,Maybe the teachers and the police will have an easier job!
Of course they should have a police officer at every school now. At least until they figure out something better. WTF is nuts about that? I have two children and I want them protected against our society, and all these bleeding hearts haven't done sht to make it safer. In fact, they are working to keep it easy for this to happen again.
I appreciate this story. I've thought about some of these issues myself and I think a zero based assessment of security at schools is just what's needed. The sharing of ideas is surely going to improve security. Also, I think the way of getting the kids out of the building fast should be reviewed too. Anyway, I would think that a lot of innovative ideas will flow into the design approach for new school buildings.
I think it's sad that we're looking at armed guards and even armed staff, but if some districts want to try it out, I'm not going to object except to say: be careful; guns are a risk and completely unexpected stuff happens.
We had an armed policeman in the building where I taught. It seemed to me he spent a lot of time in the office they gave him. He carried only a handgun. Not much of a match for many of the weapons out there. So what arms should the guards carry? How many? I think we need a big tax on some of these weapons and some of the bullets they use to help pay for all the security we need.
The problem with you people who have all the answers is that you've never been there and one that. The reality is you only think you have all the answers.
You don't have a clue because you've never worked in a school as security. Even most teachers and adminsitrator only have a surface comprehension of the security needs of the buildings they work in.
Your right about looking at what to expect from a guard. I'll point out that if a system of security cameras is used, someone has to monitor those cameras.
What do you mean by "you people"? :)
If you don't think that a handgun is a sufficient weapon in the close quarters of a school hallway then you sir know nothing about weapons. Seems that to many folks telling the rest of us what to do know nothing about plenty.
melJM
You are wrong. Just because a school has security cameras it doesn't mean that someone is watching them. They record and are more for after the fact than real time. Money has a lot to do with the level of security a school district can provide.
jmdbo3
People who haven't worked in a school as security who have all the answers. You can't lock all the doors for safety reasons. The kids have rights and parents are demanding that those rights be protected.
He was not watching the security screens, which we had. He was shopping on the internet. At least that's where I found him when I escorted a kid with a knife down to the office - after getting no answer on office phones. QZX sounds like you are just the person for school security with your extensive knowledge about handguns in hallways. What about the library, gym, cafeteria, parking lot? We did lock all the doors to outside entry. There are lots of doors in a big high school. Kids open them for friends, etc.
I would rather have my children in a school with an armed guard and security system than without.
I think depending on the size of the school there should be no less than 2 armed guards. One to sit in the office and watch cameras/eat donuts and one or more to patrol the facility.
The deterrence is there and it is no longer an easy target.
A nice big sign out front stating the school has armed security will do it.
How about money for mental health and then support for people who need help?
I will have to go along with the NRA on this one.We pump billions of dollars into other countrys that dont even like us,but we cant spend less $ for our childs security?We put guards in court houses,and all sorts of other federal buildings,but our kids dont deserve this security?We have plenty of retired Police officers that I'm betting would be happy to hire on.We can trust our teachers with our kids now,but cant trust them IF they are properly trained with a firearm to protect our child?Right now these Gun free zones are nothing but Kill zones.Just fish in a barrel.
All this talk of banning high cap mags is a load of horse feathers.Its akin to stopping car accidents by only letting you put 5 gals of gas in your car instead of 20 gals.Makes no sense.My state years ago past the COBIS which is ballistic fingerprinting of pistol cases after firing and was to make us all safer.in over 10 years of operation it cost the tax payers 14 million and solved zero crime.It was another knee jerk reaction that didnt work.Military style bans wont work either.Just feel good laws is all they are.I do target shooting and I can shoot 26 targets with 4 different antique style firearms of the late 1800's design in an average of 35 seconds (no misses)and I'm not near as fast as some others I know.
I also think the news promotes these travesty's to push their own agenda.Just push,push push over and over again.Also the movie companys have marketed the violence by young learning minds filled with vile crap over and over again.Some kids it may not bother,but many have to be effected in some way by it.Our brave soldiers get effected by war,but we make videos of the same and feed it to kids?Doesnt make sense to me.
Right. Because having an armed guard worked so well at Columbine High School.
Just what we need: another gun for the attackers after they ambush and kill the guard.
First of all the officer at Columbine HS was in his patrolcar at the park eating lunch when it started.He then raced to the scene and engaged one of the shooters outside of the school.The gunman ran inside the school and the officer then followed protocal and waited for SWAT to show.Valuable time wasted! Since then protocal has changed for first responders to charge the gunfire not waiting on backup.
There is allot of misinformation being tossed around, like most everything else in the world today. Too much communication and not enough verification. You are correct about the guard at Columbine. It is also worth mentioning that those shooter's didn't have assault rifles but a $300 Mossberg shotgun. We should have more security in schools, not only from external threats but also from internal threats. We need an emphasis on guns in the US, but we need to enforce current laws before we add anymore that will not serve a purpose. The crime rates after the last assault rifle ban was instituted actually went up and they went down when the sunset clause kicked in. Only 1% of all shootings done in the US include assault type rifles. The rest are by handguns. I believe that the new legislation in Congress that covers automatic weapons will not go anywhere, because the people in the US do not want a ban. I think the anti gun folks know this. If these folks were serious, they would only had to push on thing is a change in the second amendment and they also know that will not happen because the people of the US don't want that either. The easiest thing to do is to try and pass a law to deal with guns. The hardest thing to do is to change people's thinking and cure the uncivil nature of the people of the US, poverty, education and a broken government which could take centuries.
The shooters at Columbine also had a TEC9DC which was at that time part of the 1994 Federal Assault Weapon Ban.
They of course had other weapons, shotgun, pistols, 99 gallons of explosives etc. etc.
I'm all for armed guards in our schools. Hell, we give billions of dollars away to countrys that hate us. Why not spend some of it on our childrens security?
janusz, dam the entire Tea Party would need psychiatric evaluations then, and a lot of gun permits would be recalled. LMAO
How about money for mental health and then support for people who need help?
And that sounds all well and good, sing me another chorus of kumbaya while you try to spot everyone in a population of 300,000,000. You must work for big pharma who would certainly agree with you that we need to medicate everyone. Bonus time.
How about a constructive response to the mans question rather than ridicule? He has a valid point.
The NRA call for an armed, uniformed officer in every school sounds good on the surface, but is fatally flawed. Schools have multiple main entrances, not just one; adequate coverage is an obvious issue. Then there's the issue of the uniform itself. The uniform tells the bad guy who is most likely to try to take him out. Now you have the potential for hostage situations or human shields; if you're looking for a way to neutralized armed, uniformed security, this is the way to do it.
Having school staffers trained in tactical shooting is a better option. The first step is to identify all the main entrances. Next, you get enough people trained so you can get adequate coverage to those entrances quickly. Most important, you maintain the element of surprise. The gunman does not know who is trained to take him out, so he has to keep his head on a swivel. This means more time for more people to get out of the kill box; if he's looking around to see who's going to shoot him, that's time he can't use to shoot kids.
I'm a huge believer in drills. But to become proficient in them, you need to have a real training program; you can't do it like fire drills. Intruder drills need to be all day, at least twice a month. Everyone needs to know the quickest way out, depending upon their location in the building. Everyone needs to know where the service, maintainance, and lockerroom doors are because they are the least likely to come under attack. Everyone needs to learn how to move effectively. This means breaking off into small, organized packs; you stay low, keep your eyes up, and move quickly. The class plans should be redesigned so you always have older students and younger students on the same floor. Using Newtown as an example, I would always have 4th and 5th grade classes in close proximity to lower grade level classes. Those 4th and 5th graders are most likely to have some Scouts/martial arts training, meaning they already have some training which will be useful in training them to lead a pack of kids out of the building; it's no different than training a kid to stand in a crosswalk with an orange flag.
I'm no fan of the bulletproof glass. It's a false sense of security, unless you're going to use the same glass used in the Presidential limo. Bulletproof glass does not stop all kinds of firepower. And there are no shortage of entry tools on the consumer/tactical market which can defeat it. I prefer windows which can be knocked down quickly from the inside. The net effect on a first floor is multiple quick exit points.
I am, however, a big fan of redesigning the classrooms. A single entry point at the front of the room near the teacher's desk is a terrible idea; you need a second door in the back corner on the same wall, opening into the hallway. You also need doors in each corner on the back wall opening into the next classroom. It's all about multiple entry/exit points and putting walls between bullets and people.
I'll take anything that creates speed and mobility in moving people out of a building any day. Newtown proved "lockdown" is a total failure that creates the "fish in a barrel" scenario. Speed and mobility will be what carries the day at the next Newtown, especially if that incident involves a tactical shooter or shooters. How bad would Newtown have been if we were talking about a tactical shooter? At a minimum, an entire floor would have been wiped out instead of two classrooms.
The only thing more gun control laws will prevent is law abiding citizens from breathing due to welfare monkeys robbing them then killing them. If you restrict a law abiding citizen's capacity to 10 rounds, as Dianne Feinstein wants to do, you will put that citizen at a severe disadvantage to that criminal who has an illegal, higher capacity weapon. What does this dumb bitch think? That you'll be able to keep popping 10 round clips into your gun while some welfare monkey is firing on you and your family, that's if she'll even let you buy them? The answer: make buying handguns/magazines with 20 rounds or less capacity, and ammo, as easy as buying a candy bar. It's the only way to keep America safe from Dianne Feinstein letting the welfare monkeys out of their cages.
Have you lost your goddamned mind? We cannot ask teachers to train for this. This is not part of growing up, either, and never should be. We have to do a better job of taking care of people and maybe we can build police sub stations closer to schools, but jesus, are you serious with this?
And that's how all this crap started, white people worring about the blacks getting guns. But take a peek at just who is shooting who in these mass killings. White people killing white people. I should say, crazy white people killing white people. And, Rodentwarrior, you are just kidding about arming the teachers, right?
You are damned right I'm serious. As I've said, the way the NRA proposes using uniformed officers is totally inadequate. You have more main entrances than officers, creating a glaring hole in coverage. And the gunman already knows who is most likely to try and take him out. NRA proposal, when you apply a reality-based situation to it, would be defeated quickly. When you train school staffers in tactical shooting, the gunman does not know who is going to take him out. If the gunman is spending time looking around for who is going to shoot him, that is time he can not use to shoot kids. I do not care what the combat situation is, I always want that "element of surprise" card in my hip pocket.
This country is doing a 100% inadequate job of hardening up the youngest noses in this country. If you think that teaching a kid to squat like a bitch in front of someone who could care less if they send them to the hospital or cemetary is going to save the kid's life, you are sadly mistaken. Like it or not, the world works this way: squat like a bitch equals die like a bitch. The sooner we get some hard-nosed, reality-based survival training into our school curriculums, the better; Newtown is all the proof you need to know that this candy-assed, squat like a bitch "lockdown" nonsense is a complete failure.
As far as Dianne Feinstein goes, if she is allowed to have her way on this issue, we will have thousands upon thousands of death certificates issued to law abiding citizens with "Cause of Death: Dianne Feinstein". The sooner Americans put an end to Dianne Feinstein, the better.
Isn't it funny that the solution is always more security, guns etc. This problem is just a symptom of our sick society. I don't see any discussion on our habits, behaviors, and choices that make our country more violent, isolated and parnoid that is already is.
Solutions addressed by this article is like is like trying to cure dental cavities by having more dentists instead of not consuming products that cause them in the first place.
Forty years ago the idea of having armed guards at schools would have been looked at as being crazy, now, many schools do. Welcome to the Great Society; I guess it ain't so great?
40 years ago, society had it's values in the right place.
40 years ago, it was a different society, with different moral values. America has burned it's draft cards and it's bras, and broke into Watergate since then. We have abandoned the idea of certainty, i.e., that something is either right or wrong.
We've become a culture that winks at braking the law when we think braking the law has a purpose, like sit-ins or Occupy Wall Street, and we do the same thing with violence. We will either continue to wink at violence, and accept it as part of our culture, or we will rebel and say enough.
We've become insensitive to violence when we're told it's just a reflection of the reality of certain sub-cultures, like Rap and Hip-Hop. Enough of our children have died. How many more are they going to kill, trying to inform us about the violence in their neighborhoods? It is a vicious cycle; when will someone stand up and put an end to the culture of violence that pervades American society?
Do we really need the mindless violence of Quentin Tarantino? Do we need Warcraft? Tokyo Drift? Do we need to shout and bitch at each other over our politics? Is our passion so out of control that we can't look at the NRA's proposal, and believe that they are offering one single reasonable idea out of the many that are needed?
According to Craig R. Whitney, 30% of American schools are currently patrolled by armed guards (Living With Guns, November, 2012). The NRA is suggesting that the percentage be increased. They are not proposing a new agenda, they are proposing an extension of an existing reality.
Shouldn't we be willing to do anything thing within reason that protects our children?
Can we talk about this without the violent dialog, as if we're working toward a common goal? Can we leave the smug, self righteous indignation at the door, and just discuss this like adults?
Can we just get along?
Putting an armed guard in school would make me feel a lot safer sending my little granddaughter to school. We are all only alive because of somebody elses good behavior. Putting an unarmed teacher or aide at a school door does nothing for you then creat a bullet catcher. You have military soldiers coming back from war and looking for a job. many are coming back here only to go on unemployment. Here is the perfect armed guard to protect our children, already trained and ready to go. If Newtown had a armed guard I am sure when Adam Lanza showed up two days earlier before the shooting, I am sure he would have never come back and kill all those people. Cowards prey on unarmed defenseless individuals . maybe the NRA is not so far off in their comments.
I have to agree, my next concern is Muslim terrorists coordinating a mass school visit across the country after seeing the effects of this last attack. They could even rig 100's of school buses to go off one morning. They need to be guarded as well.
The anti gun folks always point to other countries with strict gun regulations and say things are working. These countries still have mass shootings. In addition you go to these countries and where you have large congregations of people you will always see the two police officers carrying their fully automatic long guns. If things were so cool with their gun regulations, why the need for the machine guns.
Dave:
Adam Lanza wasn't a coward. If he was, he wouldn't have been able to do what he did. Adam Lanza was mentally unstable. It isn't an excuse, it is an explanation.
If a mentally unstable person shows up two days before an event, then an armed guard may, or may not prevent the incident from happening. Don't forget, the person is mentally unstable and cannot reason with information properly, i.e., he or she may not understand that the guard is an armed deterrent.
WOW - now the NRA is the problem? Because the stated their opinion? Opinions are like brains (or other body parts) MOST people have one. Doesn't seem to me anyone has the single answer and I doubt they ever will as this is not a problem that will be fixed by an Obama knee jerk reaction!
It's not much of a problem anyway--just a news feeding frenzy. 100,000 kids die from bad diet and sitting down too much for every one that gets shot at school. But we don't care about that common un-dramatic stuff. We focus all our energy preventing things that almost never happen anyway. Ppl worry about flying on an airliner when they should be terrified of driving to the airport. We go to the beach for a swim and worry about sharks while 6 times as many get croaked from falling coconuts.
The news media sells us what we will buy and that leads to wildly inaccurate perceptions of relative risks and massive waist of resources.
Steve
Its not the NRA's fault. Its all Bush's fault, just ask any Obama supporter.
Apparently you can ask not only Obama supporters, but police and victims of assault weapon attacks:
From September, 2004:
The expiration of the 10-year-old ban on 19 types of assault weapons Monday drove up business at some gun stores and set off sparks in the political world.
John Kerry, the Democratic presidential nominee, said President Bush had failed tests of character and leadership. But the National Rifle Association lauded the demise of what it called a "misguided law, which had no effect on the actions of criminals, but penalized law-abiding citizens."
Bush said in the 2000 campaign that he would sign an extension of the 10-year ban on the semiautomatic weapons. However, he did not press Congress to send him such a bill, and its Republican leaders never did.
"Why didn't you ask, Mr. President?" Kerry asked, surrounded by police officers and gun violence victims at a community center here. "Why didn't you fight for it?"
The answer, Kerry said, is that Bush caved to the NRA. "It is a test of character," he said. "In a secret deal, he chose his powerful friends in the gun lobby over the police officers and families that he promised to protect." He said Bush has made it easier for terrorists to do their jobs and harder for police to do theirs.
Source: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-09-12-weapons-ban_x.htm
And the GOP has never allowed the ban to be reinstated ever since, thanks to election threats from the NRA.
Want to comment on this some more, Steve?
@ whathappened
Why does it have to be any one's fault? And why do the gun enthusiast, hunters and/or collectors assume that banning from the general public the type of weapons that can mow down MANY innocents in a just few seconds would result in ALL guns being banned? I personally would like to see these weapons banned. But would it help with the mass murders we have seen here in our little part of the world?
Mental health has been the "stepchild" in the health industry forever. Of all the measures I read about in discussions such as this, I believe changing this approach to an age old problem would take too long, if it could ever work in the first place.
Police presence in our public schools...K through 12. This does not have to be a negative thing. I believe it would need to be officers that agree that our public schools are in dire need of protection. It would need to be officers that do not have to have the adrenaline rush of the "chase" that most see on a daily basis in the larger inner city scene. We need officers that care about the little ones and would have no problem relating to these kids.
My idea: Have a federal mandate stating that a study of each public school be set up by local authority using local security inspectors. This inspection must be completed within 4 wks of the notice to comply. Determine what each school building would need to prevent easy entry and if there's an issue... "fix it." While this study is being conducted, get your officers trained and ready to go into the schools. These officers must be especially adept at working with children and young people. They need to be respected and admired. And an added bonus would be kids starting out at a young age actually knowing and appreciating police officers.
I'm sure I've left something out, but I think I've gotten my idea across enough for you to know what I'm talking about. It may work great in this district, and not at all in that district.
Gotta hush...I'm a "mature" retired lady that's been typing too long...my fingers are aching.
Thanks for reading this far...
@The_Mick Would everyone stop trying to blame Bush for everything, it's getting ridiculous. Try to remember that the house and senate were both democratic majorities the last 2 years of Bush's presidency. So why didn't they send the bills extension to the president???
pheonix3
Notice that when Bush held the Executive office but the dems controlled the House and Senate it was the R's fault. Now that the Dems hold the executive spot and Senate it is still the R's fault. The blame game is all the libs know how to play.
Evil will find a new way to show itself each time we block it another. Marshall law could not prevent a crime if someone is hell-bent on doing something wrong.
Want to see the idiocy in America? Read some of these posts.
We are all flailing about with this subject, no one knows what will work but we do know what doesn't work. Everything else is a matter of agreement, right now there is not much chance of that happening, I fear government will just screw it more.