Sounds like someone was trying to cover up a murder with a fire and wanted to make sure no one found the body.

This isn't the NRA's fault. This isn't the gun manufacturer's fault. THIS IS THE CRIMINAL's FAULT. Why is it that whenever someone gets murdered, we blame the laws on the books or the gun industry, or the NRA. Why not be angry with the criminal for perpetrating the crime???

Here we go again with people beating up the NRA.Why would somebody commit murder on fire fighters?This is heart wrenching to know that these two fire fighters will not be going home to their families.The two that survived will have deep psychological problems.On top of that 3 homes were destroyed.This is tragic and absolutely unspeakable to have committed a murder on those who save lives.

My condolences, thoughts , and prayers to the families of these brave volunteer firefighters! I live in Webster less that three miles from this area...

More details are needed. were they a mob.? Was it racial or religious.? Organized crime ? Usually people are happy to see the fire fighters.More details!!!

I smell crack house.

So, another senseless shooting and all we do is blame guns and the NRA. The US is going bunkers and there's no one looking in a direction that makes sense.

It's terrible that firefighters of all people would get shot. How low our society has fallen.

But before anyone starts going on some rant, why don't we wait and get all the facts. Let's take a breath and not start spewing personal vendetta's. Sometimes it's better to make an intelligent comment after a period of time than to say things off the cuff....

However, just to state facts, last year 66 kids died in chicago. That city has some of the strictest gun laws in the land:

Must have been some whacked-out doper ? Normal person wouldn't do that.

Clearly, the holidays are hard for some people to handle and they go off the deep end. This isn't the NRA's fault, this is not the gun's fault. This happened because we don't care enough about people. We don't care enough to notice that there might be something wrong with someone in our family.

Maybe that someone doesn't give a @!$%# that you people think guns should be banned or whatever. The point is, once again, lives were lost. But because it happened with a gun, it becomes the complete responsibility of a gun. If this had happened with the guy putting small IED's inside the house and it killed people, nobody would be blaming the IED's.

Folks how about focusing on the families of the firefighters and the home owners. The rest of your comments are emotional and political rhetoric without any facts in this situation to say one thing or another...

What a horrible event...

Outside of the gun control issue, one has to wonder if the fire was set deliberately to lure them there for this purpose.

Yeah I would say this about the NRA, they showed a complete lack of empathy for the victims in Newtown, instead choosing to dig their heels in politically. That just makes them morally abject, but then again what does one expect from people whose primary purpose is to sell more guns. While the organization at one time might been about gun safety, now a days it looks like they are just salesman.

Someone didn't pay up. Plain and simple. What other reason, other than a cover-up, would FIREFIGHTERS be killed? If they put the fire out too soon, the evidence would still be recognizable.

Good job, people. Two firefighters are dead, two wounded, and all you can do is use this as ANOTHER opportunity to bash the NRA,

I don't like the NRA, either, but you seem to forget that there are people at the other end of the guns...so shut the @!$%# up and show a little respect for the men and women who do what you and I don't...two of them are dead...two families are having a very memorable Christmas this year.

If its a gun free state whats the person doing with a gun?

There is no hope, our society is doomed to fail. After Sandy Hook and now this I have lost all hope for a normal society. I was born 50 years too late!

New York State isn't gun free. It has guns laws modeled after the 1994 AWB though. NYC, is gun free...so they claim.

Kevin 50 years ago was the sixties, civil unrest was much worse.....its unfortunate how few see the reality of life back then.

Why blame the NRA? The NRA teaches safety and self defense, not terrorism as people have been stating lately. It takes intent of an evil individual to point a weapon at someone, pull the trigger, and kill them. It doesn't matter if it's a muzzle loaded rifle, a revolver, a pistol, a shotgun, a semi automatic rifle or worse. If someone wants to kill you the weapon of choice is of little importance.

I recall living in L.A. when the Rodney King riots broke out that firefighter as well as the police were fired upon and nobody back then was screaming gun controll. I also recall the crazy nut job who stole the tank with a gun in his hand and drove it through the neiborhoods and freeway in San Deigo, and nobody was screaming gun controll. I also remember two insane idiots with AK-47's who robbed a Bank of America in Hollywood and went on a wild shootout, and once again....nobody screamed gun controll. As much as i can't stand the communist state of California, i don't see how any of you can have the balls to cry about this incident, when hundreds of gang shootings, riots, or murders take place a year and you say nothing to those accounts. Grow up and grab your balls. If you want to have gun controll, get pro active in your area and/or write to those idiots you voted in office demanding reform, but stop your two bit whinning and stupid sacastic comments that show you know nothing about guns.

sheepled: B.S.

"Miserable thing to happen this time of year," Mark Johns, a state assemblyman who represents the area, told local NBC station WHEC. Is there a better time of the year that would suit this idiot more???

For anyone who uses Netflix, check out the excellent streaming 2010 documentary:

"Murder by Proxy: How America Went Postal"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To see a list of 2012 Presidential and Congressional candidates who paid contributions TO the NRA (rather than the other way around!) go to:

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/read-list-of-us-politicians-donating-to-national-rifle-association/310570-2.html

The NRA is a Protection Racket!

Must have been one large meth lab!

JonSmith93903

Maybe they need armed security guards....

Moral of the story: Don't bring a hose to a gunfight.

I have several guns and have had them for a long while. And yet they have not shot at anything on their own.

BAN ALL AUTOMATIC AND SEMI-AUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPONS OF WAR.

I completely proved you wrong earlier today in another article thread where I quoted stats and you just kept denying facts....and so you just irrationally continue on.

BTW...the 2nd Amendment isn't about hunting, sport shooting, or self defense...it's about war. As long as the military and police have weapons of war the people must have them too. The entire purpose of the right to keep and bear arms is to deter the govt from becoming tyrannical, and if it does become tyrannical it's there to overthrow them.

Please look up the Founders' words on the subject. They all, except Adams (who thought the militias should follow the law even if it was tyranny, and who made criticizing the govt illegal in his term of Office), wanted that right for ONLY that reason.

Some vile a$$hole with a gun shoots firefighters responding to an emergency. A sick, cruel beyond words horrific act; attacking first responders who don't get paid as volunteers. By all means, blame gun owners (or whoever) for a criminal act committed by the mentally unstable. Forget the grieving families. You people BELONG on the NewsVine.

The NRA is a Protection Racket!

They are funded voluntarily...a protection racket is funded via extortion. The govt is the protection racket...tax is extortion, logically. If you don't pay, the govt is who you'll need protection from...they'll kidnap you and put you in a cage and chains. If you don't fund the NRA no one will do anything to you.

You are so confused.

Where I live, all fire calls are accompanied by at least 1 squad car because incidents like that were so prevalent in the 80's. But this is volunteer fire dept so I guess they aren't protected.

7.62x39mm

"They're evacuating all the houses on the strip and going through them". "Residents of the area are being evacuated and searched as they leave"......Sounds like the United Police States of America are busy conducting ILLEGAL warrentless searches

I guess I missed the part of the story where it said the searches were INVOLUNTARY. It's not illegal if you agree to it and there is no mention of how they are dealing with those who don't

Honost to god, two good men are dead and two more hospitalized, and all you pathetic tards can talk about it gun control. Show some damned respect.

Also floyd-1128183

Bullets are designed to be forced out of a tube/barrel by the explosion. Mythbusters did a segment on this. When put under extreme heat, the gunpowder would ignite and explode, but the bullit was too heavy to become a projectile (since the bolt wasnt there to force energy out any barrel). Instead the shell flew off (but not at a lethal speed).

Most likely there be more victims when they search that burnt out house.

Some murderers try to cover up the killings with a fire.

silverton-2953905

BAN ALL AUTOMATIC AND SEMI-AUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPONS OF WAR.

Yeah, and now why don't you explain just exact how they are going to implement and then enforce that? Are you calling for a police state and door to door searches of homes? Because I don't see how anything short of that would work. But please don't let reality or common sense prevent you from putting forward your "solution".

floyd-1128183

There is one possibility that nobody has thought of so far. What if there was ammunition stored in that burning house and it went off when the firefighters showed up.

Without a barrel to build velocity and a chamber to direct the energy a shell that went off due to fire would do little or no damage. It wouldn't even have enough energy to make it through the wall of the house let alone injure someone outside of the home.

These were obviously criminals with illegally aquired firearms

I didn't see that in the article. The only thing that is obvious to me is that 2 firefighters were shot dead with guns.

Jan-21270

Backcountry, and the jerks on the right immediately made this about keeping their guns and advocating arming teachers, students and anyone else...hypocrite.

Immediately???? Even the NRA waited a week before they started spouting their nonsense after the Sandy Hook shooting and I also noticed that the Fox News coverage avoided the gun control debate until the next day. While the liberal pundits on other stations were crying out for gun controls before the bodies were even cold.

And there is a difference between responding to a comment and bringing it up in the first place. I'd also point out that I did none of those things so how exactly am I a hypocrite? Do you even understand what the word means?

i will gladly surrender all my guns as soon as the government confiscates all the bad guys guns. so i guess ill be keeping them for a while. i mean it wouldnt be pc to profile gang bangers and thugs!

Just a Cleaning Lady,

I totally agree with you...it is heart wrenching. Why do people keep beating up on the NRA? Did you listen to the interview Sunday Morning on Meet the Press? People keep beating up on the NRA because the NRA totally will not accept the idea that perhaps there should be some limit on guns/high capacity magazines. As the man pointed out, the mental health system is totally broken. He said that with the total de-institutionalization of mental health, the patients were returned to neighborhoods. Do you know who lead that approach? My wife got her first job in community mental health thanks to Ronald Reagan. Surprise!! Let's cut funding and work on spending.

Oh, I forgot...it's the media's fault, and it's the video games, and the movies.

Here's a concept...maybe the answer isn't just one thing...maybe it's mental health, responsible entertainment programing/games, banning assault rifles, high capacity magazine, cop killer bullets, armed guards in schools, theaters, shopping mauls, parking lots, churches...where else can we put armed guards? How many people, children included, get killed in drive by shootings? Maybe, we should put armed guards on street corners.

911 call...agitated woman calling dispatch, "My 16 year-old stepson just cursed at me. Come and pick him up, I think he is unstable."

OK, I vented, I feel better. It is a complex problem, it will be difficult to solve. We will never totally eliminate it, but the solutions start with being open minded and asking yourself, "What can I bring to the table to help."

@Ottawa

Fantasy 1: You would barely make it down the street if you took arms up against your Government, as your Black Ops 2 training and bushmaster isn't going to turn the tide against the best armed military in the world.

Gee, I guess someone forgot to mention that to the goat-herders who are driving us out of Afghanistan.

RIP Brothers, We'll take it from here!!!

Let me take a guess here, yea, most of you won't like it, but I'll guess anyway:

Even though these volunteer firefighters are probably not unionized (unless they are paid per call, "Call Men") , the shooters are probably to ignorant to know that, so, my opinion, two, POOR (financially) hillbilly white shooters, who don't like unions, are Romney followers, and belong to the 47% that Romney didn't care about..

Backcountry164

Gee, I guess someone forgot to mention that to the goat-herders who are driving us out of Afghanistan

It absolutely amazes me the number of you fanatics who actually believe you could beat America's Military in some type of revolution. The only way is if you have a number of heavily armed Military divisions/aircraft/ships join the civilian fight, maybe!

How much gun violence has Japan had in the last year... two years... three years... ten years?

Obviously, we need to arm the fire fighters.

and doctors, nurses, teachers, clergy, theater ushers, maitre d's, bus drivers, train condustors, pilots...

Did i miss anyone NRA ?

x

This has to be one of the dumbest posts I've ever read:

MikeSuicide

"anyone that thinks the status quo is working regarding firearms in this country needs to turn their firearms on themselves. The mere notion that we need a firearm to protect us from our government is nonsensical and makes one sound like a complete buffoon. Our government has, unmanned drones and satellite tracking. If it is tyranny that we need our guns to protect us from, a aware citizen would have expelled every round by now"

I don't even know what to say to such a moronic statement. Perhaps we should try two smaller countries, one in which every gun law imaginable will be passed and all guns turned in. The other where the focus is placed on giving criminals more time in jail for using a gun for a crime than for stealing money from the Govt. (10 years for shooting someone, 20 years for robbing an FDIC insured bank) Think about those two scenarios playing out for a minute. Bear in mind that criminals will keep their guns and ignore the laws (sounds a lot like reality).

I would vote for a ban on high capacity magazines in heart beat, ak-47's and cheap semi-auto rifles, again, in a heart beat. But guess what, criminals don't give a $hit what you tell them they can and cant have. That's just how it is. IMO

This story is not true... It can't be it must be fiction for propaganda purposes, I know because it is illegal to have a gun there and that law would stop anybody from killing someone else with a gun because they cant have the gun. How silly of them to try and trick us like this. Those gun laws always work well simply look at all of New York and Chicago there are not any shootings at all in those places because they are protected with all those great gun laws, like the ones bloomberg is calling for nationwide like the ones he has in his area that are saving so many people. He is so smart gee now everyone tell the criminals so they will play by the rules too ok. "Idiots"

We need gun violence to be addressed. Guns do not need to be banned, but control is necessary. For one thing this didn't need to hit the national news; local news is good enough. We have to find measures to end the violence through tougher laws, better treatment for mental illness and becoming more safety conscious in the home.

Also, I agree with many of the posts here, we will start hearing about more and more gun related crimes as the media rides the wave of ad cash generated by juicy headlines during a time of national debate.

To the families of those that were killed, my sincere condolences, a firefighter should never have to worry about such a thing happening.

Wow, why are the hateful NRA and Koch Brother paid and sponsored comments aren't collapsed, but citizens who revile the alternative universe that the NRA lives in are collapsed?

The NRA has already solved the problem. Armed guards at all fires... and schools... and malls... and cinemas...

The liberal rant lives on. I come to expect nothing but drivel from the left. On this thread I am not disappointed. I see very little concern for the victims and less attention to the shooter. Instead, as is so often the case, the left attempts to find a scapegoat to blame. Responsibility never seems to lie with the individual that committed the crime but is thrown at others in an effort to advance their agenda. So sad so many fall for the smoke and mirror tactics of the left.

A nation divided will fall. Such a sad day for this once great country.

Jesus is the light that pierces the darkness.

I wonder about Darthfrodo's "meth/crack house". Tweeker meth heads would have guns. A lot of meth heads are so paranoid I would not be surprised they would do this. Meth making houses are bombs already. This one just went off.

How do you put out a fire? NRA: More guns.

These Occupy Wall Streeters will stop at NOTHING. Shooting firemen???!!!

With all the collapsed posts I see someone is in favor of censorship

it appears that the holiday season is to stressful on the crazy crowd.

@huskergal

We need gun violence to be addressed

And lets' start by addressing the FACT that gun violence has DECREASED by 50% over the last 20 years and the trend is still downwards.

@Never Stop Asking Questions

Wow, why are the hateful NRA and Koch Brother paid and sponsored comments aren't collapsed, but citizens who revile the alternative universe that the NRA lives in are collapsed?

Why? Well I think it is fairly blatant proof that YOU are the one who is actually living in the alternate universe. Of course we would gladly welcome you back to reality should you wish to join us.

Luckily where I am the police are generally at the calls before we are. That still doesn't stop people from doing stupid things. As a Fire Chief much wiser than I once sagely observed - NO CALLS THE FIRE DEPARTMENT BECAUSE SOMEONE DID SOMETHING SMART. We as F/F's should always expect the unexpected. Admittedly getting shot at is unusual. But - it has happened before. Then again, any fire can be a potential bomb, collapse, accident with the truck, etc. Keep your eyes open.

My condolences to those who answered their last alarm and a speedy recovery to the injured..

@moshuluu

Even though these volunteer firefighters are probably not unionized (unless they are paid per call, "Call Men")...

Get yourself a dictionary and look up the meaning of the word "volunteer".

It absolutely amazes me the number of you fanatics who actually believe you could beat America's Military in some type of revolution.

Right, because the Afghans and Iraqis got their asses handed to them so thoroughly. What amazes me is how someone can look at an obvious example and then ignore it in favor of their own preconceived and utterly naive viewpoint. While you're looking up "volunteer" why don't you do some research on asymmetric warfare

This sucks! Find the perpetrator and drop them into a burning building.

Who made the match or lighter that started the blaze? Blood is on their hands!

The last two GOP canidates were McCain and Romney, and in the 2012 election, Romney dominated the independent vote, especially in a few important swing states. Yet, we still have low information sheep above saying that the GOP "panders to the fringe" of the party. If that was true, why did McCain and Romney get the nomination? And why did they focus on winning the independent vote this election? Seriously, you can't just make stuff up as say it's true.

Honost to god, two good men are dead and two more hospitalized, and all you pathetic tards can talk about it gun control. Show some damned respect.

What else do you expect after the massacre in Newtown? Someone above even suggested that the four fire fighters were hit by exploding ammo set off by the burning house. How likely is that? Cooking up meth and shooting first responders as one tried to get away, likely, for the culprit was able to shoot four before they had a chance to take cover, so yes, the NRA deserves smack-down already before the facts are in. I'll make another bet here... that the ammo used was of sufficient high velocity, (known as stopping power) that it caused major tissue damage in our government employees known as firefighters. Was that part of the founding fathers intent? I'd really like to tell the NRA and its loyalists what they can do with themselves, but that apparently is not allowed here.

NevadaJ-577866

sheepled:

AMENDMENT II

"A well regulated
Militia, being necessary to the security of a Free State, the right of the
people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Agreed; that's what the Second Amenment says.

Now, are you a member of this "well regulated Militia" or are you just some whackjob gun nut stumbling around with a loaded weapon?

As for myself, I'm neither.

*SHALL NOT BEINFRINGED*…END OF SUBJECT

Nevada. Please get some clarification on the Amendment's language. A "well regulated militia" back in those days were simple townspeople who kept weapons in the case the government became tyrannical, thus Joe Smith living on the corner would have weapons similar to whatever government forces would have so that he could ensure that once their rights were stripped away, the ruling class (whomever that may be) could not just walk in and force compliance.

Most people back then were willing to die for their rights and freedoms after putting up a fight for them. Most people today are willing to do whatever a presidential administration tells them what they should think and do, see the difference?

As for you calling others "whackjob gun nuts". We will simply wait and see what you do in reaction to some criminal or mentally challenged individual if and when they decide to come to your local establishment, whether that be a school or restaurant, and decide to shoot it up. Maybe you can stop the offender with your sharp wit or you could potentially throw your Obama phone at them.

Must be those damn violent video games and movies again...

First and foremost, condolences to the firefighters their friends and family.

This senseless killing has got to stop. But it is not as simple as any one side seems to make it.

We can start with the constitutional issues. First, the Constitution was designed to be a living document. It CAN be changed. It's been done 27 times. Sometimes it's been changed, and then changed back. The framers of the constitution realized several things ... one being that the world would change and that the constitution, in order to survive, must change with it. The other thing they realized is that religion has no place in government (so please quit equating God with guns!).

In looking specifically at the 2nd Amendment, you have to look at the weaponry that was available at the time. What were "arms"? The main one was the muzzle loading musket. An experienced soldier could get off approximately 4 shots a minute for about four or five minutes and then would have to stop to clean the weapon. It's effective range was less than 75 feet. Now let's compare that to the AR 15, one of the currently available "assault rifles" on the market today. It has a rate of fire of 800 rounds a minute on the full auto (fairly easy to switch a semi to full auto), and an effective range of about 550 yards. Quite a difference.

Let's continue the with the constitutional issues. Most arguing for no gun control say that the intent was to make armed citizenry able to withstand the government's use of a standing army against them. I'll grant you that. But even with assault rifles, the standing army of today has tanks, APC's, MLRS, helicopters, etc. Sorry, that makes that above mentioned AR15 a peashooter.

I have to think that the framers of our constitution were smart enough had they been in today's world, the 2nd amendment might look a bit different. They WERE smart enough to allow us to modify it. (In other words, they wouldn't want criminals and the mentally ill running around with assault rifles.)

However, the violence in our society isn't a one sided issue. I do believe that as a culture we have glorified violence. This is not new ... even back in the early days of TV we had westerns that glorified gun violence (the Lone Ranger comes to mind). Our culture has skewed history to make it as if violence is the only answer to our problems. You can see this in the TV we watch, the movies we make and the video games our children play.

A third important factor is mental illness. For one, it is a stigma. People don't want to get treatment. And if they do, it's very difficult. Mental illness effects more people than cancer, yet we have put very little research into it ... and have even lessened our efforts to treat it.

Yes, there is some bashing that needs to be done ... because all of the special interest groups, to protect their own little piece of the pie, have done nothing but blame the other guy. But in the end, we need to remove those special interests from the conversation. We need to make them irrelevant in a thoughtful, respectful national discussion so that no more children (or adults) needlessly die.

Solutions ... I certainly don't have all the answers and no one else does either (that's why we need the conversation, so we can put the pieces together).

Ideas ... here are a few.

1. Outlaw the ownership and sale of semi-automatic "assault" weapons. Put buy back programs in place to compensate private owners for their weapons. No grandfather clauses. Limit ownership to museums and private collectors who only pass stringent background checks AND can prove they have the security needed to keep the weapons out of the hands of others.

2. Close the loopholes that allow for the purchase of guns at shows without background checks. This should also apply to internet and private sales. This should be done with establishing a national data base that can be checked before a gun is sold.

3. More stringently rate movies and video games to keep young children from being desensitized to violence. Enforce it. Hold parents accountable. Children in their formative years do not need to play Call of Duty!

4. Give mental health screenings the same priority in schools that we give to vision and hearing screenings. The earlier it is caught, the more chance it can be effectively be managed. Make treatment available when it is detected.

5. Make it easier to commit adults with mental illness and open more facilities.

6. Most importantly, we need to make a cultural shift away from violence and more toward community and generosity. That too is a significant part of American history and one that often overlooked in our study of history.

Let the bashing begin ... or, how about this idea. Instead of bashing my post, why don't you provide reasonable, respectful and thought out ideas?

Beth

Excellent post. Here are some other thoughts.

Let's be clear. No one blames the guns. We blame the shooters. Guns are inanimate objects, but people and especially people like the NRA leaders have worked hard and successfully to ensure that we have lots of guns in our society.

When we have lots of guns, especially hand guns and assault weapons that are designed with the specific purpose of killing people lots of the problems become worse.

• People who wish to do harm to children or random strangers in a shopping mall can do more harm with guns than with other tools. If those guns can fire lots of rounds in a short period of time the damage is multiplied
• People who have anger management issues are far more dangerous to others, usually their own friends and family when guns are readily available
• Kids who "get into their parents stuff" are far more at risk when the "stuff" is firearms
• Depressed people with suicidal thoughts are far more likely to follow through with the suicide when guns are readily available

When guns are plentiful plenty of criminals will have plenty of guns.

fritter,

I think the point is reasonableness! These types of weapons and accessories can kill many people exceptionally quickly as was demonstrated in CT. Is it going to stop all attacks or murders? Of course not, but it's pretty clear that when someone wants to pull off something like this, they go to the most effcient weapon they can get their hands on. Unfortunately, these types of weapons are very efficient, especailly when paired with a high round mag. This has been the weapon of choice in the last four mass killings (all in the last 6 months by the way). There are NOT needed for self defense or hunting.

AND, they way we deal with a govt we don't like is through the demoncratic process of elections NOT by declaring war on it with your private gun collection!

It is ironic, but all these wackos are doing more damage than Al-Qaeda, as a matter of fact, when was the last time we heard that Islamic nut-jobs did anything on American soil?

Wow...our government is really trying to get support for a gun ban. The lenghts that they go through!!!

Welcome to Wayne's World!

I do not wanrt to live in Wayne's World. Regulate all guns like cars are regulated.

Ideas ... here are a few.

1. Outlaw the ownership and sale of semi-automatic "assault" weapons. Put buy back programs in place to compensate private owners for their weapons. No grandfather clauses. Limit ownership to museums and private collectors who only pass stringent background checks AND can prove they have the security needed to keep the weapons out of the hands of others.

Why outlaw private citizens who wish to own an AR15? Why? They dont commit crimes with them, sell them to cartels or gangmembers or terrorize towns with them. This is downright crazy talk. I worked for the DOJ when I got out out of the military and I know first hand I could buy any gun I wanted on the streets of Chicago for a few hundred dollars. These werent legally bought guns, mostly they were stolen or acquired by gangs like the Latin Kings through MS13 contacts who procured them illegally in Mexico.

Your constitution argument about tanks, APCs and missiles doesnt hold up either. Let me ask you this, if you are going to be forced to comply to oligarchies and/or dictatorship like rule, wouldnt you rather go down swinging or would you rather become a patsy for your government? I want the armaments that the tools have that will kick in my door. If they bomb my residence well then so be it.

2. Close the loopholes that allow for the purchase of guns at shows without background checks. This should also apply to internet and private sales. This should be done with establishing a national data base that can be checked before a gun is sold.

I agree somewhat with background checks but internet sales are made through someone who has an FFL and can vouch for the buyer. Considering what someone goes through to get an FFL, Im sure they wouldnt risk selling to someone of low moral standards as they could end up doing more jail time than the offender.

3. More stringently rate movies and video games to keep young children from being desensitized to violence. Enforce it. Hold parents accountable. Children in their formative years do not need to play Call of Duty!

Fine but you are walking a thin line. Funny how liberals are all about restricting the 2nd Amendment but are suddenly very careful about treading on the 1st.

4. Give mental health screenings the same priority in schools that we give to vision and hearing screenings. The earlier it is caught, the more chance it can be effectively be managed. Make treatment available when it is detected.

You are talking billions of dollars which makes sense that Obama and Feinstein will go after guns. Much, much cheaper.

5. Make it easier to commit adults with mental illness and open more facilities.

See costs above.

6. Most importantly, we need to make a cultural shift away from violence and more toward community and generosity. That too is a significant part of American history and one that often overlooked in our study of history.

This is so general and preposterous I dont know where to begin. It seems that you, like so many other left leaning thinkers are under the impression that we need to be softer as a society. Look at history. Societies that have become softer get overthrown, either from within or from the outside. Be careful what you wish for.

Let the bashing begin ... or, how about this idea. Instead of bashing my post, why don't you provide reasonable, respectful and thought out ideas?

How about we stay exactly as we are? The numbers of aggressive homicides with firearms is so low, you would even be hard pressed to say it was an issue. The reason you and many others are so up in arms is because of the brutal nature of the crime and because children were involved yet I dont see anyone trying to break themselves to get at the root of medical malpractice or drunk driving accidents in any mass numbers despite the fact that these kill 10 to 100 times more children. Get a clue, this is a knee jerk reaction by you and most liberals to do something that really has been proven not to work. The assault weapons ban in 2004 was a massive failure against violent crime with weapons, thus why try it again? Oh thats right, so you can feel better about yourself and so the politicians can proceed toward the eradication of our rights under the constitution. One step closer to having them tell what to believe, think and act.

If this guy decided to kill firefighters without a gun he could just have planted a bomb in the burning house and killed the majority of the fire department.

Beth,

I see no language in which you put ANY responsibility on parents or individuals. Hmmm. Outside of clinical mental illness, maybe THAT is the problem with this f***ing country. Blame and make everyone else responsible. Bunch of 'american idol' watching and tweeting morons running around.

MikeSuicide Comment collapsed by the community

anyone that thinks the status quo is working regarding firearms in this country needs to turn their firearms on themselves. The mere notion that we need a firearm to protect us from our government is nonsensical and makes one sound like a complete buffoon. Our government has, unmanned drones and satellite tracking. If it is tyranny that we need our guns to protect us from, a aware citizen would have expelled every round by now

So you think suggesting people commit suicide is the answer to gun violence. Bravo on this brilliant line of thinking. Then you go on to say you think the people who wrote the constitution are morons. More superior observations. You're obviously a genius with all these analytical skills at your disposal which addressed all the facets of this problem in a single paragraph.

What's nice about our constitution is that if a person doesn't like it they can move to a country that dictates as they like. Anyone even proposing to alter our constitution in ANY way is a terrorist traitor that should be delt with in an extreem manor. There's thousands of our soldiers that have died to protect our constitution and many that suffered injuries, and yet the idiot liberals just can't see beyond their pea-brain agenda's. Yes the USA is the most powerful nation on earth, and it's not becouse of our military that our leaders send to fight with one hand tied behind their back as the real power is We The People that will fight any invader.

as a convicted felon, he could not legally own firearms.

Oh yes more laws or bans would have stopped this Mentally Disturbed nutjob criminal.... OH wait I'm sorry HE WAS ALREADY BREAKING A BOAT LOAD OF LAWS WHEN HE DID THIS.

Now if he had been executed for beating his grandmother to death in the first place I can say with 100% certainty that this wouldn't have happened.

Liberals answer to these kind of things,

1.More gun laws and more bans.

2. Shorter prison terms for killers, more privileges for inmates.

3.Blame NRA, inanimate objects, conservatives, religion, for all these tragedies.

Conservatives answer to same tragedies.

1. Fry these types of criminals, or never release them.

2. Armed security like the Presidents kids get for all of our kids.

3. Allow law abiding citizens who want to own weapons to defend themselves to do so.

4. Comprehensive care and treatment for Mentally Disturbed people, not just throw them in jail or dump them on the street.

NOW WHICH ONE OF POINTS OF VIEWS WOULD HAVE STOPPED THIS FROM HAPPENING????????????

Yep lets try and blame the NRA for what is obviously the liberals fault of letting murderers out of jail and not giving them the death penalty in the first place.

So libtards, How are all those rehabilitation prgrams for criminals working out for you?

IDIOTS.

Wow ... so much for hoping for a RESPECTFUL discussion. No wonder we can't solve our problems ... we can't even post on a news board without name calling, etc.

@riley

How about we stay exactly as we are?

20 dead children.

As to the other topics you listed, not relevant as this is not a discussion about those. BUT, MADD certainly had a grass roots campaign against drunk driving and it was amazingly effective. Not perfect, but much better than it was.

As to the rest of your post ... not worthy of response since all you seem to do is blame who you perceive as "liberal" without offering a single constructive suggestion.

@ JS69

I see no language in which you put ANY responsibility on parents or individuals.

Might I respectfully suggest you sharpen your reading skills?

Enforce it. Hold parents accountable.

But also it was a call for RESPECTFUL submission of other ideas. I never said I had all the answers. I offered suggestions. If you have something constructive to offer, I'm listening.

@ 7.62

. Anyone even proposing to alter our constitution in ANY way is a terrorist traitor that should be delt with in an extreem manor. There's thousands of our soldiers that have died to protect our constitution and many that suffered injuries, and yet the idiot liberals just can't see beyond their pea-brain agenda's.

Interesting comment. You do realize the mechanism for changing the constitution lies WITHIN the constitution itself? That the framers MEANT for it to be changed when necessary. That the first 10 amendments, aka the Bill of Rights, are the first 10 CHANGES to the constitution? Might I respectfully suggest you actually READ the constitution, and pay specific attention to Article V? (BTW: I was one of those soldiers.)

@Don ... a reasonable voice in the wilderness. Thank you.,

Beth

Thanks for another good post. I'd like to offer a few other thoughts for 7.62 and others who believe that liberals don't care about the Constitution.

Those Second Amendment folks who continually bash those who advocate limits on gun rights should bear in mind that those rights hinge not on the original statement in the Bill of Rights, but in the Supreme Court INTERPRETATION of those rights. Had the court held that being part of a MILITIA was connected with the right to bear arms we could have a lot fewer guns in the hands of private citizens. In addition, there is nothing in the Constitution nor in the Second Amendment itself that precludes gun registration or the government's insistence on background checks, licenses, significant training or any other measure that reasonable people believe necessary.

First of all my condolences to the families and coworkers.

Now, the first question ANYONE and EVERYONE should ask is WHY did this individual only get 17 years for beating his grandmother to death with a hammer? If he had still been in prison (the very least that should have happened) or EXECUTED, as he should have been, then this tragedy would never had occurred. We need to stop letting murderers out of prison after serving a paltry few years. If you steal someones life then yours should be forfeit. PERIOD, end of discussion.

NV -- agreed.

This is part of what we need to look at, parole of those convicted of first degree murder. I'm personally against MOST executions due to the chance of executing an innocent, but life, definitely.

if you beat your own grandmother to death with a hammer you should never be allowed back into society so that was a systemic failure not a gun control need.

Fox

We have 30,000 gun deaths in this country. When people who love guns look at each incident they can always find a reason other than guns at the root of the problem. However, rational people understand the THE COMMON DENOMINATOR IN EVERY GUN DEATH IS THAT THE DEATH WAS CAUSED BY A PERSON WITH A GUN. Guns really are a major part of both the problem and the solution.

"The gunman who ambushed four volunteer firefighters, killing two, in upstate New York had spent 17 years in prison for beating his grandmother to death with a hammer in 1980, police said."

Alright there you have it people, guns don't kill people... hammers do! So now where is all your anger against the NHA (National Hammer Association)? So now we are going to outlaw hammers and the sale of tools in every Ace Hardware and Walmart? Like I always say, I could walk into a meeting with a dozen people, and take out at least half of them with a baseball bat to the head before anyone could figure what was going on and even attempt to stop me! A gun is simply a way to do it at a little bit quicker and at distance... period! It is simply another style of weapon, the power and action of the deed is in those of who weld it! So now more than ever, I dare anyone to argue the new and true phrase "GUNS/HAMMERS DON'T KILL PEOPLE... PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE"!!!

NRA fools and fools who think mental health issues are the only people who want to do nothing other than have more people get shot.

The rest of us are working on answers while the extremists are good for nothing but punching themselves in the face.

Sheepled wrote:

Noah Webster (Founding Father) believed that having an armed public would
prevent the government from becoming corrupted because the people would have
more power than the government itself.

Yet, and still, the government is corrupt. So much for that quote!

OBAMA:America's Eva Peron

..........and now for something completely different!

Actually, not different at all. Still the same anti-social, anti-Obama craziness that you've always got going for you.

GovHater

Alright there you have it people, guns don't kill people... hammers do! So now where is all your anger against the NHA (National Hammer Association)?

Ridiculous line of reasoning. We understand that people would die by the hands of others even if guns did not exist. The point is that guns just make it so damned easy. We all know that hammers and guns are just tools, but if you don't realize the difference you are dumber than a hammer.

Nevada. Please get some clarification on the Amendment's language. A "well regulated militia" back in those days were simple townspeople who kept weapons in the case the government became tyrannical, thus Joe Smith living on the corner would have weapons similar to whatever government forces would have so that he could ensure that once their rights were stripped away, the ruling class (whomever that may be) could not just walk in and force compliance.

Riley, you are half-right. People were not just allowed to possess and bear arms, they were required to provision themselves with a musket, a certain quantity of shot and powder, along with a few other items necessary for serving in a military campaign. This was legislated by the two Militia Acts of 1792.

The first gave authority to the President to call out the militia "whenever the United States shall be invaded, or be in imminent danger of invasion from any foreign nation or Indian tribe." or "whenever the laws of the United States shall be opposed or the execution thereof obstructed, in any state, by combinations too powerful to be suppressed by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, or by the powers vested in the marshals by this act".

The second required of all able-bodied, white male citizens that they enroll in a local militia and procure the military equipment I allude to above.

These two federal laws were passed in May of 1792, a mere 5 months after the adoption of the hallowed Second Amendment. It seems more than odd that virtually the same men who, by your account, provided the means for citizens to resist tyranny, would, less than half a year later, pass laws providing for a means to quell rebellions.

In other words, the maintenance of a local militia was a tool of Federal control, not a counter-balance to federal power. It was used as such too, in the suppression of the Whiskey Rebellion in 1794.

This unshakable belief by advocates of untrammeled gun rights that a heavily armed citizenry is somehow a necessity for the maintenance of democratic institutions ignores numerous examples to the contrary. All of the nations of Western Europe have far stricter gun control laws than does the U.S., and yet they have maintained democratic institutions for decades, and, in many cases, for generations. Portugal and Spain, both governed by totalitarian dictatorships since the 1930s, transitioned to democracies in the 1970s without any action by a citizen militia.

As for you calling others "whackjob gun nuts". We will simply wait and see what you do in reaction to some criminal or mentally challenged individual if and when they decide to come to your local establishment, whether that be a school or restaurant, and decide to shoot it up. Maybe you can stop the offender with your sharp wit or you could potentially throw your Obama phone at them.

Funny, Riley, but I cannot call to mind a single mass-killing incident where a private citizen used his lawfully carried firearm to end the killing. We've had half a dozen spree killings in the last month, in Colorado, in Oregon, just today in up state New York, and, of course, most tragically, in Newtown CT.

Tell me in which of these incidents did a private citizen use his gun to stop the wacko?????

Again another instance where if a gun WERE NOT AVAILABLE, lives would not be lost.

We're wise to you, LaPierre. It's all about MONEY. Congress, stop sleeping with the NRA! It's OUR MONEY that's being spent to clean up these messes!

The Constitution doesn't say anything about people being armed in order to be a law unto themselves, or to revolt against their own constitutionally-elected government (remember the Civil War?), it says for the security of a free state, probably due to the aversion to a standing army and military class. So the Militia Acts were in accordance with that.

Mother Jones has done some good research into mass killings (so much for the bystander with the concealed weapon saving us all!) and Atlantic Monthly has a good article on history regarding guns (including Ronald Reagan saying nobody had a good reason to walk around with a gun--in fact, interestingly enough, this was when the Panthers made a point of carrying around unconcealed loaded rifles as was, at the time, their legal right).

The justice system is to blame here. The killer should have never gotten out of prison in the first place. Why was he paroled? He should have gotten the death penalty and not freedom!!

Parole should never be granted to a mental patient that killed his grandma.

It is also illegal for him to have been in possession of a gun.

fatty

OK .... that prevents two unnecessary gun deaths. You now only have 29,998 others to prevent (that's every year!). Gun advocates always find lots of ways to prevent gun deaths, but none involve restricting weapons or placing limits on those who own weapons.

Every unnecessary gun death involves guns. Guns are the common denominator. Get it?

Wow ... so much for hoping for a RESPECTFUL discussion. No wonder we can't solve our problems ... we can't even post on a news board without name calling, etc.

@riley

How about we stay exactly as we are?

20 dead children.

And your suggestions my dear have not worked and will not work as I have pointed out. You are simply one of those people that disregards any other viewpoint other than ones that corroborate EXACTLY what you would like to see happen. Again, my liberal thinking moniker is on the money here. You just want people to fluff you, REGARDLESS of ideas that have proven NOT to work again and again as you suggest. You refuse to look at history, facts, past practices.

As to the other topics you listed, not relevant as this is not a discussion about those. BUT, MADD certainly had a grass roots campaign against drunk driving and it was amazingly effective. Not perfect, but much better than it was.

As to the rest of your post ... not worthy of response since all you seem to do is blame who you perceive as "liberal" without offering a single constructive suggestion.

I offered no constructive suggestions Beth because your choice in politicians will go after the guns because they are the cheaper alternative. The Obama administration WILL NOT put in play anything that is expensive, thus your mental health care reform. You are ALL about change insofar as weapon restrictions and gun law just to feel good about yourself.....they do NOTHING. Its been proven, but you dont get that.

Don,

Where do you get your stats? Out of your anus? The FBI stats are less than half of what you quote. Guess that makes you a liar.

This monster should have never been let out of prison. This is the problem in America. We don't keep crazy murderers in prison and we will continue to have this problem. Our laws are a joke.

On another topic, the school where Obama's daughters attend have armed guards on the campus and this policy has been in place even before Obama became President. David Gregory, a big critic of guns on campus, also has daughters who attend this same school.

So I guess their kids deserve protection while our kids don't deserve to have protection.

dman-353357

Funny, Riley, but I cannot call to mind a single mass-killing incident where a private citizen used his lawfully carried firearm to end the killing. We've had half a dozen spree killings in the last month, in Colorado, in Oregon, just today in up state New York, and, of course, most tragically, in Newtown CT.

Tell me in which of these incidents did a private citizen use his gun to stop the wacko?????

Of 5,000 incidents reported between October 2003 and November 2011, 488 involved home burglaries along with another 1,227 incidents where intruders fled when confronted by armed inhabitants. Another 34 concerned pizza delivery drivers defending themselves, along with 172 animal attacks. Concerns about an attacker taking a gun away from an armed victim were proven invalid, with 227 incidents reported where the intended victim disarmed his attacker, while just 11 attackers disarmed his victim. Twenty-five rapes were avoided by armed victims. Two hundred and one attacks were neutralized by armed senior citizens (over age 65, according to the authors).

Mass Killings Stopped by Armed Citizens

There are several documented cases where armed citizens have stopped mass attacks by gunmen. Let me list a few: The Pearl, Mississippi school shooting was stopped by the vice principal Joel Myrick with a Colt .45, The Appalachian School shooting was stopped by two students with handguns. Both of the above incidents were stopped by the armed citizens threatening the shooter without firing.

Pearl High School Link

Appalachian Law School Link

Plans to slay everyone in the Muskegon, Michigan, store and steal enough cash and jewelry to feed their "gnawing hunger for crack cocaine" fell apart for a band of would-be killers after one of their victims fought back.

Muskegon Shooting Link

The mass church shooting in Colorado Springs was stopped by the shooter being shot by a church member with a CCW permit.

New Life Church Link

The Santa Clara gunshop shooting in 1999 was stopped by an armed citizen after the shooter declared that he was going to kill everyone. Police found a list of intended victims in his car. Only the perpetrator, Richard Gable Stevens was shot.

Santa Clara Gunshop Link

The December, 1991, Aniston, Alabama defense where a CCW holder stopped armed robbers who were herding employees, customers, and his wife into a cooler. He shot both robbers, killing one.

Aniston Shoney's Shooting Link

July 13, 2009, in Virginia at the Golden Food Market: The gunman tried to shoot several people, was stopped by a CCW carrier.

Golden Food Market Shooting Link

Just recently, in Early Texas, armed citizen Vic Stacy shot and stopped a deranged man who had just murdered two neighbors and was firing at police with a rifle. Stacy made a very long shot with his revolver, three times as far as the perpetrator was from the police officer, who had an AR-15 type rifle.

Early Texas Peach House Shooting Link

That sounds like a very good story... but it never made the national news.

I wonder who made the decision to spike that story.

Of course, when a mass shooting is stopped by an armed citizen, there are not as many victims. This leads to the charge that it would not really have been a “mass shooting”.

I have added this incident at the request of a reader:

Abraham Dickman had a history of anger against employees of the AT&T store in New York Mills, New York. On May 27th, 2010, he walked into the store with a .357 and a list of six employees. He shot the first employee, but was stopped from further attacks when Donald J. Moore, an off duty police officer who was allowed to carry his own handgun when not on duty, drew and fired his .40 caliber, killing Mr. Dickman before he could fire any more shots.

AT&T store Link

Here is another likely candidate.

College Park, GA, May 4, 2009.

Two gunman entered a party and ordered the men separated from the women. Then they started counting bullets. “The other guy asked how many (bullets) he had. He said he had enough,” said Bailey.

When one of the assailants prepared to rape a girl, a student was able to access a handgun and engage the two attackers in a firefight, driving one off and killing the other before the thug could rape his girlfriend.

“I think all of us are really cognizant of the fact that we could have all been killed,” said Bailey.

College Park Link

Another off duty police officer stopped the Trolley Square shooting with his personal handgun. He stopped the killing and contained the shooter until police reinforcements arrived and ended the situation.

Trolley Square Shooting Link

Winnemucca NV shooting, 25 May, 2008

The shooter, Ernesto Villagomez, entered the Players Bar and Grill and killed two people. He reloaded and was continuing to shoot when a citizen with a concealed carry permit shot him and stopped the killing.

Winnemuca Shooting Link

Parker Middle School Dance Shooting

14 Year old Andrew Jerome Wurst Killed one person and wounded three others when he was confronted by James Strand who subdued Wurst with a shotgun and held him until police arrived.

Parker Middle School Dance Shooting LinK

Destiny Christian Center Shooting, April 24, 2012

Kiarron Parker rammed his car into another in the church parking lot, got out and attempted to kill multiple church members. He was only able to kill one before a member of the congregation, the nephew of the lady killed, and an off duty police officer, drew his handgun and shot Parker, stopping the killing.

Destiny Christian Center Shooting LinK

Tyler Courthouse shooting, 2005 While police officers were involved in this shooting before and after Mark Alan Wilson intervened, no more people were killed after he shot the shooter, who had body armor, and who was able to return fire and kill the CCW holder, Wilson.

Tyler Courthouse Shooting Link

Clackamas Mall Shooting

I include this story because it is recent and has been getting some interest on the net. This case is not as clear as the others listed. This incident is similar to the more common defensive uses of guns because the mere display of the gun was enough to defuse the situation. We can never know if the shooter decided to commit suicide because he was confronted by Nick Meli, the CCW holder, as the shooter is dead. However, many mass shooters commit suicide when they know that armed resistance is at hand.

Need more fruitcake?

Also DMAN, sent this to you direct just to be clear:

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they
are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America
cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole of the people
are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular
troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States."

Noah Webster, "An Examination into the leading Principles of the
Federal Constitution." in Paul Ford, ed., Pamphlets on the
Constitution of the United States , at 56 (New York, 1888).

Pretty clear to me. You guys love to use muskets, but this is about repelling tyranny in any form, using ANY weapon and Id rather die fighting it with whatever gun I have vs. tanks, planes, etc then roll over and succumb to whatever the POTUS and his administration recommends I should do.

I have worked for the federal government (and still do) and fought in the military. There are two things Im deeply scared of, God and my government. You can enjoy your Obama phone and be pacified all you want, it doesnt mean I will.

What the hey, how can I top the notoriety of the Newtown madman that massacred so many innocent schoolchildren? Well hell, first responders are the next easiest target. One purposely set fire and one 911 call will bring them rushing to the scene. Easy pickings for a simple man with nothing to lose and wishes only to be remembered by as many as possible.

While the foolish American public divides itself between gun rights and distrust of assault weapons, now is the time to strike. The NRA and GOP have my back. How long will I have before Newtown will allow the spineless liberal sissies to restrict dangerous weapons to those deemed sane? I would have had much more time to plan this thing and take a larger number of innocents with me had stupid Lanza had not jumped the gun.

Hell with it I want an M16 and a grenade launcher.. Its my second amendment right.

davefromdanapointca

Don,

Where do you get your stats? Out of your anus? The FBI stats are less than half of what you quote. Guess that makes you a liar.

Perhaps I was wrong. Perhaps you are correct. I may have quoted something that I read or heard that was incorrect. If so, I apologize. Perhaps we can agree on something, however ........

• THE ANNUAL NUMBER OF GUN DEATHS IN THIS COUNTRY IS IN FIVE FIGURES.
• THE NUMBER OF GUN DEATHS IN THIS COUNTRY IS TOO HIGH.
• WE SHOULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

Why do you want to quibble about minor @!$%# when there are big problems to solve?

this story goes to show you that this man would have murdered using anything he could....

NOTICE: what about the hammer used to kill a 92yr old lady...is that the NRA's fault or does Craftsman, Stanley have blood on their hands too???

Take a tip from Australia. That country banned ownership of weapons from its citizens 2 years ago and all but specific weapons were confiscated and turned in. Since that time Robberies have increased 69%, Murders are over 36% higher and Home Invasions are over 20% higher. Research it! You'll find it on Youtube and numerous other news outlets. Banning guns will never keep them out of a felons hands.

roadlesstraveled

this story goes to show you that this man would have murdered using anything he could....

NOTICE: what about the hammer used to kill a 92yr old lady...is that the NRA's fault or does Craftsman, Stanley have blood on their hands too???

Stupid, childish argument. Any fool knows that people will kill people sometimes whether or not we have guns available. The easy access to guns in this country just makes it so damned easy and so damned frequent. Do you really not understand that or are you so intent on gun ownership with minimal responsibility that you will try any argument, no matter how silly, in your feeble attempt to justify your position?

njofaustin

Australia has about 250 gun deaths per year. They could raise that if they took your advice and killed those people boosting stereos. I don't think they want to be like us. Why would they?

Beth-440386

We can start with the constitutional issues. First, the Constitution was designed to be a living document. It CAN be changed. It's been done 27 times. Sometimes it's been changed, and then changed back. The framers of the constitution realized several things ... one being that the world would change and that the constitution, in order to survive, must change with it.

No.

The Constitution is no more a living document than any other contract.

As Supreme Court Justice Scalia has so eloquently described in his argument of the Constitution being a living document.

"That's the argument of flexibility and it goes something like this: The Constitution is over 200 years old and societies change. It has to change with society, like a living organism, or it will become brittle and break."

"But you would have to be an idiot to believe that," Scalia said. "The Constitution is not a living organism, it is a legal document. It says something and doesn't say other things."

The Constitution is a legal document so was written to be unambiguous.

All you “living document” advocates would be screaming your heads off if your “collective bargaining” agreements were considered a “living document” wouldn’t you? Under that rationale the boss could arbitrarily change the employee’s compensation by saying, “The situation is different from when the contract was signed”, yet this is exactly what you advocate with the government we have with our government.

Yes, the Constitution is a contract. It’s a contract we all have with our government the instant we’re born here or become a U. S. citizen. A strong constructionist or originalist view of the Constitution is essential to guarding us from the tyrannical nature of man. This is the foundation of the rule of law concept. By demanding the written word be the criteria for deciding disputes we protect ourselves from the temptation of human nature to make emotional decisions.

The written word ensures a reliable and predictable justice. As we have see with Liberalism/Progressivism the written word is inconvenient for those who cannot transform society by consensus. We saw this during the FDR regime when the social reformers were failing to get the New Deal laws passed that would favor the structure of society that they envisioned.

They went to the courts and found judges who shared their radical transformational views and who were willing to use the convoluted logic of a living Constitution to make law from the bench. When this was finally being challenged in the Supreme Court the criminal FDR threatened to stack the Court with additional Justices in the name of helping the present Justices. This was the most blatant abuse of executive fiat that has subsequently created all the problems we see around us today.

Yes, the Constitution can be changed. But it can only be changed to strengthen that which it was intended to do, to be a “charter of negative liberties” directed by Article 1, Section 8. It cannot be changed to expand the function of our government. We have safeguards in place, checks and balances and separation of powers to prevent usurpations of our “Supreme Law”.

Nowhere in our Constitution does it give us the power to provide education, health care, welfare or protection of ourselves from ourselves. None of the abuses are allowed under, the “General Welfare Clause”, the “Commerce Clause” or the “Necessary and Proper Clause”. These are only to be applied to the restrictions given to the Federal government. Federalism separates the functions of our two sovereign levels of government, federal vs. state.

But even with assault rifles, the standing army of today has tanks, APC's, MLRS, helicopters, etc. Sorry, that makes that above mentioned AR15 a peashooter.

So, because our government has grown to this level of destructive capability We The People are supposed to just kneel and submit? If anything the level of ownership of defense mechanisms we citizens have should increase rather than decrease. First you argue the minimal impact that the Founders and Framers had regarding muskets as compared to an AR 15, but you don’t allow the same argument that our government now has a much more capable armament.

To stand with arms against an oppressive government assures Freedom, to lay those same weapons down, regardless of capability, assures tyranny.

Doesn't anyone see the connection? "They" just killed twenty 6 and 7 year old kids but when it was found out that the shooter didn't use the assault weapon he had in his trunk the momentum against a new assault weapons ban began to soften then up comes these murders of Innocent firemen with an assault weapon and large capacity magazine. You don't see how they are connected? This is not a coincidence. Clearly these are black ops used against us to disarm America. Never mind that this person was a convicted felon and shouldn't have had a weapon anyway. The rule of law means nothing to the Liberal/Communist. If "they" are willing to kill innocent children they certainly would have no trouble killing fireman? My guess is that this person was killed even before the house was set afire. This is war against the American People and it will not end until we regain control of our government. At least to the extent which we can fully expose ALL truths in the light of day. In plain sight where ALL Americans are free to see what's really happening. We must end this fraudulent reality thats been erected using the media sanctioned by the government. We need to expose this threat for what it is, a direct attack on the American people. Presently we are in a weakened state but we will become stronger with every truth exposed. Secrecy has gotten us JFK, RFK, MLK, Vietnam, Panama, Irak 1 and 2, Afghanistan and 911. Open your eyes. Settle for nothing but the truth. And remember, "Hearing the truth shall set you free".

I haven't responded to anything of late due to other concerns but this one had to be addressed.

Like the CT shooter? Oh wait....

Yes, that's right. He stole them from his mother. That makes them illegally acquired. Criminals and those who will become such most of the time obtain them illegally. Take guns away from the law-abiding and only the criminals will have and acquire them, whether from others from whom they steal or from other countries and Black Markets that still have them. The Law does not stop the Black Markets from distributing.

Take a look at what happens in gun-control states and cities. The murder rates are higher overall in those states and cities. More gun crimes take place in typically Blue States than in typically Red States, even with various pieces of gun-control legislation in those locations. Does anyone need really to wonder why that is? (Read the preceding paragraph to get a hint).

And, does anyone really need assault weapons with large capacity clips to defend themselves? If you ever have lived in riot zones during active riots, you will wish you had one if you didn't, particularly when you have dozens of people breaking into your home and taking what they want and/or smashing in the heads of family members (because you cannot defend yourself against large groups of rioters). Besides that, if America's economy collapses (and at the current rate the country is going it is very likely to come sooner than later) people will need them to defend themselves from mass looting and armed looters.

And, if there is ever an enemy incursion on American soil, assault weapons will be very handy things to have. If America keeps on weakening its military, with all the people we have pissed off in the world, the risk of this increases. "Be prepared." Call me a gun-freak but I prefer to be prepared for anything. I have saved my family's lives with an assault weapon and I would not hesitate to defend my country therewith--even at my "granddaddy" age.

And this guy got his gun from whom? Probably another "law abiding", Constitution citing, NRA card carrying CRIMINAL. Someone who believes he has the "right" to do whatever he wants to with "his" gun even if that means selling it to a convicted killer. No background check, just cold hard cash. Tell me again why every gun should not be registered and tracked to keep it out of the hands of these guys. Tell me why the last legal owner should not be charged as an accomplice in these shootings.

For the gun nuts out there, the NRA is directly responsible for lobbying to legalize assault rifles with high capacity magazines.

Really? How many automatic weapons and large capacity magazines were used in this case?

So, we have another societal monster and of course the dysfunctional little Liberals/Progressives panties are all in a bunch wanting to ban guns.

He’s a convicted felon.

He beat his grandmother to death with a hammer.

He’s an arsonist that started 7 homes on fire.

He murdered 2 innocent firefighters and injured 2 more.

He obviously killed his sister.

He left a note stating he did what he likes to do best, kill people.

Of course none of this makes any of you gun control advocates wonder about this miscreants psychological stability? Hell, he already killed someone with a hammer and possibly his sister in the burning house, so no one thinks this animal was unstable?

Just like most of the other sensationalist seeking mass murderers, these are criminally insane people first and foremost. To think otherwise is based purely on indoctrinated ideology, not rational argument. You Liberals know none of these are a purely assault weapon issue, but you don’t care. Just like your convoluted argument about higher taxes is fixated purely on ideology, you know it will do nothing to correct our multiple systemic defects in the economy.

Once again you prove how illogical your arguments are. As usual they are based on emotions along without any reasonable thought. Why do Liberals find it so easy to willingly kneel in front of a bloated bureaucracy and submit their freedoms for more promises of unattainable safeties? Why do Liberals hate America so much that they never want to do anything that benefits everyone in our great Republic? Why do Liberals hate teachers, police, firemen, first responders, our brave troops and other real Americans unless their cause benefits their convoluted argument about social and economic justice?

Over 4,500 comments, most by bizarre grandiose Liberals/Progressives, who continue to believe that more government will create a society based on equality rather than merit or accomplishment. They know they will never survive on their own and need the very people they vilify so much, the successful. It’s so sad to see so many Americans admit their insignificance and inferiority.

In the past at least they still tried to maintain their dignity.

Just did some statistic checking.

The last homicide rate due to firearms in the USA was compiled in 2009 at 3.7 per 100,000. That does not even get us into the top 20 internationally.

Then they stats were broken down further, 75.4% of the firearm related homicides were criminal to criminal. Interesting...lowers the effective rate down to .9 per 100,000. England, Canada, and most other industrial countries do not count criminal to criminal violent crime within their statistics, yet we do...go figure. Yet when we take out our criminal element, we are right with the other countries.

Next, we are not a homogeneous culture so that also reflects into the gun related homicide rate. Even though the two largest minority groups comprise less than 23% of the total demographic population, they account for almost 40% of the firearm related homicides annually. Surprisingly, one-fourth of those are commited by people that are not legally in the country.

Taking out those and we actually have one of the "safer" countries in the world.

Then there was this..."assault type weapons" were used in less than .001% firearm related homicides. The weapon of choice by a large margin, was believe it or not, a revolver.

Just food for thought: More people are killed by illegal immigrants by a 10-1 margin annually than by "assault" weapons....maybe we should outlaw illegal immigrants?

Just another nutcase with a bushmaster. And a felon to boot. 5 will get you 10 that he bought it at a gun show. I own plenty of guns and have no problem with gun shows. Go to them myself and buy guns there. But anywhere that anyone can buy a gun should require a background check and waiting period to make sure they dont have a record.

Beth-440386

Interesting comment. You do realize the mechanism for changing the constitution lies WITHIN the constitution itself? That the framers MEANT for it to be changed when necessary. That the first 10 amendments, aka the Bill of Rights, are the first 10 CHANGES to the constitution? Might I respectfully suggest you actually READ the constitution, and pay specific attention to Article V? (BTW: I was one of those soldiers.)

Beth, your statement about the mechanism for changing the Constitution being within the Constitution itself is indeed correct, but your assertion that the Bill of Rights was a “change” to the Constitution is inaccurate.

Americans have been concerned with maintaining our Rights for hundreds of years, and for good reason. As history has shown us, government is never concerned with your or my Rights, they only care about their self-appointed power over us. The first settlers were concerned with maintaining their Right to practice religion. The Right of representation and self-determination were some of the reasons for the Revolutionary War. The Right for personal freedom for all was why the Civil War was fought. Our history is filled with bills of rights, from the most famous included in our Constitution, to the Declaration of Rights prompted by the Stamp Act to the Virginia Declaration of Rights written by George Mason. Today we still seek the elusive Patient’s Bill of Rights.

The Bill of Rights were not 10 amendments added haphazardly after the Constitution was ratified. They were added because the States refused to ratify the Constitution without those specific 10 Rights being included at a later date. When the Constitutional Convention finished its work, it did not find it necessary to include a Bill of Rights because most believed the Constitution didn’t give the new federal government the ability to restrict inherent Rights, so no list was necessary. The Anti-Federalists and George Mason were most vocal about including a Bill of Rights.

James Madison, the father of the Constitution, presented his draft of a Bill of Rights in 1789. Eventually both Houses agreed on twelve articles of amendments. In 1791 the last 10 of of the original twelve were ratified. These were not changes, they were substantiations of what was assumed in the Constitution. The States wanted it in writing, for good reason.

The Framer’s did not MEAN to change the Constitution. The Amendment process is designed to just clarify the obvious Rights included to all American citizens. The Amendments are specifically for the federal limitations contained in the Constitution. As the 9^th and 10^th Amendments direct us to all other issues being responsibilities of the State and the People.

BTW, thank you for your service.

"So, we have another societal monster and of course the dysfunctional little Liberals/Progressives panties are all in a bunch wanting to ban guns."

Actually out of 170+ comments here exactly ZERO have called for banning guns. Perhaps instead of creating or cutting and pasting long winded self serving diatribes (ask Spence the time and he'll tell you how to build a clock) some here should spend time trying to read and comprehend a viewpoint different than their own and knock off the juvenile name calling. If the person or persons can be found who took this AR15 from legal to illegal by transferring it without a background check and registration they should be charged with murder as an accomplice. Any law-and-order types out there have a problem with that?

I Resigned

If the person or persons can be found who took this AR15 from legal to illegal by transferring it without a background check and registration they should be charged with murder as an accomplice.

And what, have him paroled in 17 years like this wonderful member of society?

Yeah, you Libbies always have the answers as far as more rules, laws and regulations but then when we slap these animals in jail your bleeding hearts start having palpitations and you want them all freed and their executions stayed because it's "not fair"!

The best thing most of these psychotic miscreants do is kill themselves so we real Americans don't have to listen to your pathetic social and economic justice nonsense for the collective.

Time to resign Spanky!

So, what you're saying Spence is that you think only the laws you agree with should be enforced because some parole board sent this nut job home? How many guns have YOU sold without background checks?

This just gets better and better as more info comes out. Apparently, the shooter didn't like anybody very much. No meth lab just a crotchety old man. And the weapon of choice... a Bushmaster AR-15... That ought to enhance their sales far into the future... and in a State with tough gun laws... and to a felon... maybe he liked to use it on Canadian Geese. Cover of Rifle Firepower magazine March 2013 issue... "Are your cartridges safari grade?"... "Colt Le 6920 All-Duty AR-15"... "Buck Blaster! Bullpup RFB .308 Kel-Tec's New Powerhouse"... and my favorite "Zombie-Ops Gear & Tactics" Don't tell me gun nuts don't have a sense of humor... Don't know whether to laugh or cry.

WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP. this man spent time in jail from 81-98 for manslaughter a felon who buy law can not buy a firearm yet got his hands on one. yet no one is blaming the feds on this the laws are there but they failed to enforce them. what about the number of firearm that come into this country through Mexico, including the one that Obama and his buddies shipped down there , that ended up back here on the streets? dont see anyone getting to upset about that. look at it this way if you cant stop drug and people from coming in this country illegally how are you going to stop guns from coming in?

muggy

The very large number of guns in this country and the very small number of restrictions on those guns, largely thanks to the NRA and the other gun advocates, ensures that it is very, very, very very easy for ANYONE to get any kind of gun they wish to own.

Jim Spence

Despite your rants to the contrary, no change in the Constitution would be necessary in order for this country to pass laws that very severely restrict gun ownership (and I hope we do). The Supreme Court chose to interpret the Second Amendment such that membership in a militia was not necessary for gun ownership. If the membership of the US Supreme Court had been different at the time, we could very easily be living in a country with guns laws a lot like other developed countries in the world, and our death rate from guns would be much, much, much lower than it is now.

@Beth-440386

@ JS69

I see no language in which you put ANY responsibility on parents or individuals.

Might I respectfully suggest you sharpen your reading skills?

Enforce it. Hold parents accountable

My apologies. I missed those three words in your 6 point post. I just think that point deserves a bit more focus instead of disarming the populace due to the acts of criminally insane people.

Hmm. I wonder if this is another example of 'responsible gun holders' who need to have an assault rife in their hands.. Next thing, the NRA is going to want to arm Firefighters. Oh wait, Firefighters are union thugs....

As for the families here.. thoughts and prayers for you. No one should have to endure this kind of a loss while doing their job.

nope people control

This is obviously deliberate and gun control would not have made a difference. Another sicko at work.

Thats interesting that you would bring up assault rifles seeing as how the article said nothing about assault rifles.

HELL NO, dont even try it.

The article has said nothing about a shooter(s). We will hear about every shooting from now on. It makes great media. Stir the pot folks.

Hey - ItsAboutTime-3704531 Those FF were not "Union Thugs"... They were VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTERS. Volunteering their time to help their community. Take your Union B*tching someplace else. People like you should have a sign out front so we know to let the fire burn if it's your house.

ThePanther1999

I wonder if this is another example of 'responsible gun holders' who need to have an assault rife in their hands..

It was more of a question then anything else.

We need responsible gun control laws.... if I have to license my car every year, why can't gun owners do the same thing? If I have to show my drivers license to get some over the counter medication, why can't gun owners do the same thing with ammo? Why should children be able to go the gun range, when they can't vote until they are 18? Drink until they are 21? Increase our mental health care funding, and if people are WILLING TO pay for it, better security in some public venues...

Bottomline, I think we are all fed up with seeing the loss of innocent lives... and there is not going to be one solution that works better than the rest...because no matter what we do, this is going to happen again.

@ ItsAboutTime-3704531 Firefighters are union thugs...You insignificant piece of crap...I'm willing to bet that you sit at home and live on everyone elses hard work (welfare) or you think an athlete is a hero. These men and women risk their lives everyday to save life and property...(today's story being a perfect example). How about you run into a burning building and save a person, child or pet...oh wait, you don't have the courage. You're a piece of work, and how hypocritical for you to sent your thoughts and prayers to the families. You disgust me...

We should ban fires.

Gun control would do nothing for these situations-criminals and thugs that want guns will get guns, why do liberals never understand this!! Do any of you idiots think that criminals all have registered guns?? Every mob enforcer, bank robber and ghetto thug will of course obey every gun law out there! And before you all start, I am not a member of the NRA nor do I own any guns myself, it's just common sense. I do advocate sensible gun control-strict screening and licensing processes and civilians do not need automatic assault rifles or AK 47 style guns, but geez people use your heads=if a criminal wants a gun they will get one.

Gun control would do nothing for these situations-criminals and thugs that want guns will get guns, why do liberals never understand this!!

Why do gun proponents insist on repeating this fallacious statement? As the gun proponents love to point out, guns are inanimate objects, and are not inherently evil - they are also not inherently illegal. All guns start out as legal 'tools' - and restricting the commerce and exchange of legal tools will inevitably restrict access to them on the black market.

Laws that restrict access to guns by everyone will also restrict access to guns by criminals. Immediately? Of course not, but inevitably of course. That's the whole point of having a law - any law.

It does not speak well of the gun proponents that their arguments against rational gun regulation are so consistently vapid.

Increase our mental health care funding

Who? From where?

Let me explain something, criminals do not follow any law that is why they are criminals. I do not own a gun but I would not surcome to the leftist attempt to condition the cattle/sheep of this country calling for gun control. Guess what there is already gun control, more than there was ever meant to be. Criminals pray on the WEAK, If 1 out of every 10 had a gun on their hip this place would be much safer. Ask Australia how their crime rates are after outlawing guns (doubled). How is Chicago's (one of the toughest on guns) crime rate and murder rate by firearm? Don't see those laws making any impact there so how would it anywhere else.

cibyll

@ ItsAboutTime-3704531 Firefighters are union thugs...You insignificant piece of crap...I'm willing to bet that you sit at home and live on everyone elses hard work (welfare) or you think an athlete is a hero.

The next time your house catches on fire.. I hope those union thugs don't show up. I am in the game pal and I work for a living. I don't require government assistance to make it and because of the right winged GOP, I pay more in taxes then YOU probably pay and I face discrimination for it on top of it.

These men and women risk their lives everyday to save life and property...(today's story being a perfect example). How about you run into a burning building and save a person, child or pet...oh wait, you don't have the courage. You're a piece of work, and how hypocritical for you to sent your thoughts and prayers to the families. You disgust me...

Yes, these UNION THUGS risk their lives everyday to save life and property, and yet you discredit them? How pathetic is that. The only thing that is disgusting here is your comment. Instead of saying anything about the loss for these families, you insult them.

How about murderer control? I think we already have laws on the books for that one, and that's what this is all about. For all the anti-guns posts, go back and re-read them. Insert the words criminal murderer instead. Once doing that, I think you will know where to point the finger. Tools are tools. People are the ones using them.

Many, many condolences to the families of the firefighters. This is totally and completely dreadful. Please accept my heartfelt sympathies for your loss.

Exactly sjacobs123!Maybe JonSmith everybody needs to get their heads out of the Ice Bucket,and have some discussion about Guns,and I ain't talking about the Draconiian Mentality,all these Gun Control Nuts are spewing out there.All this is going to do is cause a War.I mean that literally,because many many people are not giving up their guns period! Think I'm blowing this out of my back end? I'm not!

We don't know who or what did this to these Firemen,but I'm willing to wager,it was done by scumbags who had ILLEGAL GUNS and really don't care who they kill.Laws Biding Citizens with Guns don not kill kids, firemen,or any other person who walk crawls or Craps.

Law Abiding people people with guns are willing to talk about it,but not lose their freedoms in this country, for the idiocy and stupidity,and viciousness of others,that includes the Gun Control Nuts!

If common sense isn't used aboiut this ,how many more are going to die? Huh?

Yoda45

Why, you ask? ... the secret is in the math: Guns don't kill people, cowards and fools with guns kill people. Take away guns, and fewer people will die. The math is so simple that even the neanderthals at NRA can understand it. And, if the recalcitrant, ever-combative "throwbacks" at the NRA continue to refuse to join the discussion, in an effort to come-up with reasonable, realistic, 21st Century alternatives to this "madness", I'm going to lose my guns, as will millions of sane, responsible, gun-owners like me...and so will you!!! "We the people....", everyday Americans, unlike you and me, many of whom have never held a gun, much less fired one, have had it with the BS! This is America: THE MAJORITY WILL ULTIMATELY RULE... and since they don't know what we know about guns, hard-line, "gun-nuts" will lose. DON'T YOU GET IT?

This country was founded as a Republic, look it up and then you will understand why the majority will not rule on this as they did not on slavery.If you want to repeal the Second amendment to the constitution of the United States of America then start the process, otherwise enforce the laws already on the books.

Has anyone thought that perhaps those doing the shooting were trying to make sure the buildging burned to cover another crime?

Does anyone else realize that actions, such as these, are just grandiose imaginings of the murderer? He's seen how much media attention previous horrors have generated, and he just wants in on all the falderal. What kind of mind generates, accepts, and otherwise supports such violent and STUPID behaviors? This monstrosity is nothing more than a self-centered, "ain't I great," attention-seeking whore--the lowest of filth. May he reap what he has sown.

How about we all compromise and let the mothers and fathers of the children who were slaughtered, and the husbands and families of the teachers who were massacred, decide whether we need stricter gun laws or not?

And yes, the firefighters' families that will celebrate Christmas tonight and tomorrow by grieving over their murdered loved ones should be allowed a vote as well.

BAN GUNS.... grew up around guns and not one person was shot.

As to the majority will rule theme. Since when??? All it takes is one person and Christmas is not Christmas anymore.

ItsAboutTime-3704531

Bottomline, I think we are all fed up with seeing the loss of innocent lives... and there is not going to be one solution that works better than the rest...because no matter what we do, this is going to happen again.

Gun homicide is down by 50% over the past 20 years all without the worthless laws you (or anyone else for that matter) are calling for. The only reason you license your car every year is so the state can collect revenue, it is not a safety issue in any way. Most places already require ID for most ammo and no one under 21 is allowed to purchase handgun ammo. And finally, kids are only allowed at gun ranges if they are of legal shooting age and most places require them to be accompanied by an adult, a firearm is FAR LESS dangerous than a car when used properly and we let kids start driving when they are 14.

Also, it's worth noting that several people obviously thought you were dissing firefighters by calling hem union thugs when I believe your intention was to suggest that is how the NRA would view them, yes?

HURRY WAL-MART SHOPPERS!

Every parent needs to stampede over to Wal-Mart this morning. I saw a big display right in the middle of the aisle with BB guns in the shape of an assault rifle and an automatic handgun.

These are going fast, so if you want to arm your child, but he or she is not old enough to carry their own machine gun, then this gift pack is the next best thing. They can actually practice shooting their neighbors and school friends!

Hopefully, come next holiday season, we will all be wearing bullet proof vests under our Christmas sweaters.

Guess by the NRA's thinking we should put an armed police officers on every fire truck now also. Great idea, as long as the NRA is willing to pay for all the police officers we're now supposed to hire for schools, churches, work places and now fire trucks. They'll make the money back in no time through the additional gun sales I'm sure. BTW, are these police officers supposed to be carrying automatic assault rifles? Should be fun the first time we have a full blown fire-fight inside a school with automatic weapons on both sides. Hopefully it'll be in his grand children's school.

If you look at the examples of total firearm confiscation in the world today, the gun violence still does not vanish. Like the strict laws in some states, the criminals go to another state to get them. Even with full confiscation they still come from somewhere. 'Common sense' rules and 'confiscation' still do not work. We already have a vast quantity of 'common sense' rules.

What would work is if people were taught the respect for others everyone needs, from early childhood.

Trying to fix a people problem with object control still does not solve the root issue, which is how people behave.

The NRA is a terrorist organization.

Heck of a job, NRA.

how about a judicial system that has some balls. It seems to me that the bleeding heart liberals have whined about criminals rights that now the judicial system is a joke that criminals don't take seriously.

There needs to be substantial consequences to crime.

silverton-2953905 is a troll that keeps copying and pasting the same comments over and over and from one article to another. He hates guns and just keeps the same comments. Turning on Troll Control.

What is an "assault rifle"?

To Never Stop Asking Questions:

Let me ask you just one question. Why are your post so ridiculous?

As far as I know none of the shooters were NRA members. The NRA teaches safety, not mass murder. The idiots that shoot people are just that, idiots, and anyone that believes an NRA member would shoot someone are just ignorant. Put the blame where it belongs on people that are on the edge and moved by the movies, and videos that set them off. Society has deteriorated in the last 50 years, 50 years ago shootings were rare as were violent movies that are shown today. When God is kicked out of the classrooms satan moves in.

Rational thought, anyone?

People control, anyone?

Condolences to the families and loved ones and entire town, anyone?

I'll take all 3 of the above, Monte.

Let's take a moment to address all the people who say they need "killing" weapons to keep the government from oppressing them.

When the government comes with F-35 jets dropping twelve 500 lb bombs on you before you can see it or a 60 ton M1A2 Abrams with Chobham armor firing high explosives rounds with laser guided, computer controlled precision or an Apache helicopter firing Hellfire missiles or even a platoon of front line, fully trained troops: do you think your AR-15, Bushmaster .223, AK-47 or other weapons will stop them? Because that's how the government rolls, ask all the corpsified Iraqis planted into the dry desert sand.

The answer is no, you will be slaughtered if you don't surrender. Your precious stockpile of "freedumb" defending weapons will have been a wasted investment that just enriched supporters of the government that you believe is "out to get you".

The time for "Turner Diaries" and "Red Dawn" fantasies is over and long past overdue to end.
Wake up! Just because it will never be the 1950's (or the 1850's for that matter) doesn't mean the end of this country. Your rationale for owning military grade killing machines is wrong and wrong-headed and it's time for you to come to that realization.

Compared to the government, you ARE UNARMED! Sorry 'bout your butthurt.

Consider using the following as a template to correspond with your elected representatives:

Dear Mr./Mrs. (your Representative's/Senator's name here),

In light of the increasing frequency of killings throughout the country characterized by the use of assault style/military grade weapons, I am corresponding with you today to urge you to support legislation to put common sense controls on the use of firearms in this country. It is past time for this problem to be addressed and stop the scourge of this type of violence from taking more innocent lives.

As an American, I am entirely cognizant of the effects of this type of weaponry. I will state, without qualification, this type of weaponry has no legitimate place within civil society. I firmly believe that the onus of limiting these weapons falls upon you and your fellow elected representatives.

I respectfully request that you take the following legislative initiatives; 1) eliminate the gun show and internet loop holes on background checks, 2) eliminate the sale of assault style/military grade weaponry, 3) eliminate the sale of extended clips and speed loading devices, 4) legislate that firearms be registered in the same manner as motor vehicles with comprehensive written and skills demonstration before the issuance of any permits to own and operate firearms, 5) implement the mental health care equivalency provisions of the Affordable Care Act. I firmly believe that these steps will help increase public safety while at the same time respect the Second Amendment right of the nation’s citizenry. As you are aware, the Supreme Court has ruled that no rights are absolute, fully automatic weapons and weaponry that launches explosive projectiles have been severely limited within the Second Amendment "umbrella" of the right to bear arms.

In conclusion, I hope you will initiate this common sense legislative effort in the next Congress and that with your diligence and constructive effort, we may achieve the safety and security our citizens deserve.

Sincerely, (your name here)

Who knows how many lives you could save?

pete: Rational thought? Sure, people are in despair and getting very depressed over how quickly the President and the dems are destroying the country!

But, on this particular situation, with the facts being as slim as they are, it sounds like the fire was a result of a meth operation gone bad and the operators trying to make sure the cops didn't get any evidence (it needed to burn completely). Gun control? Like all things government, I'm sure it will work as well as their war on drugs.

The other possibility is it was arson. So, let's ban all matches!

The bottom line is that there will always be bad people around and there isn't a damn thing you can do to stop it, unless you want to live in a police state, in which case the bad people are put in charge of the asylum.

Apparently, Worm Meat, an assault rifle is a regular rifle painted black or camo. The fact of the rifle being semi-automatic or single shot does not seem to matter, it is more based on appearance. I can purchase a Ruger Mini 14 with wood stocks and it is considered a hunting rifle, but if I buy a black plastic after market stock that makes it look like and AR-15, the same rifle is now an assault rifle. So by this logic, black pencils are assault pencils and black dogs are assault dogs if I do something to make them look more threatening.

My prayers for the deceased and injured firefighters, the families and friends.

peteMT - I have no rational thoughts regarding this. It is beyond belief that someone would shoot firemen. It was beyond my comprehension that someone could do that in Newtown, CT as well.

I was a volunteer fire fighter about 20 years ago in the small town I lived in at that time.

I know banning guns is not the answer. Maybe getting more criminals off of the street somehow.

I honestly do not know the answer. I wish I did. God bless and Merry Christmas to all that can........

Anyone can complain...why not tell your "representation" in Congress -esp if they are owned by the NRA!

----------------------

For anyone who uses Netflix, check out the excellent streaming 2010 documentary:

"Murder by Proxy: How America Went Postal"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To see a list of 2012 Presidential and Congressional candidates who paid contributions TO the NRA (rather than the other way around!) go to:

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/read-list-of-us-politicians-donating-to-national-rifle-association/310570-2.html

The NRA is a Protection Racket!

anindividual: Gee, thanks for the list of people who believe in the Constitution! Yes, you are right, the NRA is a Protection Racket. They believe in allowing us the right to defend ourselves. Now, if you want to really be enlightened, watch 2016, Obama's America! Unlike the Michael Moore loony fiction, this is real and ought to scare everyone. But, for those who have been paying attention, it will come as no surprise.

For those who speak gun control, he was a felon and therefore not allowed to have a gun.

My take on this is simple, he beat his grandmother to death, and our system let him out of prison. Death penalty anyone? Life imprisonment with no parole? Our system thinks so little of our lives it lets a guy out of prison who murdered someone in his own family. Our system needs to change. A second chance for a thief, sure, but criminals of this nature do not belong in our community. We had a chance to stop this. We knew his criminal capabilities, and we let him out to prey on others. Shame on our system and shame on us for not advocating zero tolerance for criminals of his kind.

Should be asking who let this guy out.Not what gun he used or what mag. size.WHO LET HIM OUT?

Now that the article has been updated with info about the murderer, you will see that the judicial system is a crock. Like OCinLA said "WHO LET THIS GUY OUT?"

If the judges and parol boards had any balls this guy would still be in jail.

@Fore As the USSR and the US learned in the middle east and the US learned in Vietnam, firepower isn't everything.

Has anybody even wondered why this dirt bag got out after the first death in 1980. He should have gotten something liberals don't want to talk about. CAPITAL PUNISHMENT.

He gave the state a fiscal bonus by killing himself. He should have skipped the publicity and needless deaths by just offing himself last week.

bi-polar got no reason to live...they got little tiny brains going peeb-peeb-peeb...it shorts out they shoot up their hood...they won't take their medication like they should...doesn't do any body any good...don't need no ...don't need no bi-polar people around here...Merry Christmas...

Carry a firearm in to a fire? Now you are just being stupid.

Solution: let the place burn.

Oh Jacob, that makes total sense. F-it then, why even have a fire department? Seems like a fair trade for the continuation of the 2nd amendment.

@sjacobs123 - Sounds like they did let the place burn and the three homes around it. So this indicates that if I am unlucky enough to live next door to a gun-freak my house is allowed to burn down. Awesome. Thanks crazies.

Let the place burn. Once the flames go out separate the innocent from the guilty and rebuild the homes of the innocent. This is not so far fetched. I am subsidizing the reconstruction of the homes of people who built in high flood risk areas now.

If a "gun freak" lived next door to the shooter, he or she likely would have shot back at the perps. Only a crazy person would shoot at a firefighter battling a blaze. The 'gun freak' would be doing the world a favor.

The fire department is already letting the homes of people who do not pay for their service burn down. It was in the news about a year back. They also let burn homes that have solar power on their roofs because there is no way to turn of the solar panels and so the fire fighters get electrical shocks.

This pisses me off! Firefighters are heroes who risk their lives to save others. Anyone who would shoot at a firefighter is nothing but a piece of trash as far as I'm concerned. But that same sort of thing happened in Watts in the early 1990's. I think we are living in a rapidly decaying society.

Some a$$hole with a gun shoots firefighters responding to an emergency. A sick, cruel beyond words horrific act; attacking first responders who don't get paid as volunteers. By all means, blame gun owners (or whoever) for a criminal act committed by the mentally unstable. You people BELONG on the NewsVine.

Mickey-1983943

I think we are living in a rapidly decaying society.

It's not that society is decaying, quite the opposite, it's just that you know about things now that you never would have in the past.

Gun homicide is down by 50% over the past 20 years while over that same time media saturation is through the roof thanks largly to the internt. 20 years ago you never would have heard about this story if it didn't happen within a hundred miles of you.

@Sjacobs123 - ah yes, you're absolutely right. I totally missed the part in the article where it said the gunman (or woman) was using those super special cool guns that have bullets that stop at the boundaries of the owner's property/lawn. I didn't realize that the person shooting from the house would not possibly be able to reach the fireman battling the blaze next door. My bad.

Carrying a gun or not is ridiculous in an ambush. The firefighters were shot and killed before they knew what was going on. Having a gun when you're ambushed does not help you. Most murderers ambush their victims before they have a clue what's going on. What now? Should one walk around with a cocked gun at all times? Today, the only things you can do is to enjoy each day, hug your loved ones and let them know you care and then wait for your number to be called. You never know when someone's going to pop out of the bushes with a cocked gun and your number. Peace!

criminals and thugs that want guns will get guns

Yet that has nothing to do with the last two events. These were not "criminals and thugs" but the guy next door. That fact that they flipped out doesn't negate that fact.

According to Huckabee we just need more God in our schools, businesses and homes. Problem solved.

now lets see, its not safe for our kids, its not safe at church, its not safe for fireman, what propoganda will they come up with next. who will protects us from the NWO....who? its not our government.....?

The NRA and its fanatic supporters have bullied Americans who want reasonable gun laws for decades.

The NRA is interested in ONE THING and ONE THING ALONE ... MONEY.

The NRA hides behind bogus slogans like "protect the second amendment" and "protect your rights" for decades.

It only cares about PROFIT, and if that means putting automatic or semi-automatic assault weapons in the hands of American citizens, they will stoop to anything to make their millions.

Thank you to every politician of either party that stands up and says NO to the NRA and YES to the safety of our citizens.

I have owned a gun and enjoy target shooting, but I say

BAN ALL AUTOMATIC AND SEMI-AUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPONS OF WAR.

It is ironic, but all these wackos are doing more damage than Al-Qaeda, as a matter of fact, when was the last time we heard that Islamic nut-jobs did anything on American soil?

WOW SHOCKING! MSN will now daily publish every single gun violence crime that will promote their agenda. But I have a question. How come they don't publish the stories where someone that was armed prevented a gun crime? oh thats right, that doesn't promote MSN's agenda. For every one of these that happens there is one where someone who owned a gun or had a concealed carry permit that shot the bad guy before he could do more damage.

Israel does not have mass shootings. Why? because, the whole population has concealed weapons. How? mandatory military service. All citizens are in the reserve and carry concealed weapons. If a terrorist or nut pulls a gun everyone in the room or building pulls out their handgun. Now you know why Hamas does suicide vests and car bombs. If they tried to shoot up a market, mall or school the shooter would be cut down in seconds by literally everyone in the room building.

RIP my fellow men, My fellow Americans. And here we go again. I am getting sick of hearing that only bad guys are doing this killing. Most of the people that have done the killing we not criminals until they shot up the place and everyone in it. In CT. You can't say those guns were owned by criminals. The Owner didn't properly keeps these Guns locked up. More to the point, what kind of a person would teach her mentally Ill son how to shoot a AR-15, If you ask me she had some mental problems of her own, How did she get her hand on these guns. That just goes to show you that anyone can still get there hands on what ever they want. I can't wait to find out what kind of gun this guy used. Who he is and were he got his gun or Guns. God for bid we try to do something to put a stop to the madness. F the NRA, They are just protecting the profits of the gun company's and there jobs. We need to take them out of the pitcher. They have no interest in helping find the solutions, More guns are not the solution. Putting Cops in every school isn't the answer. Maybe we can put 2 seal team members fully armed in the schools. That might stop a few. 67% of Americans want this problem stopped with Assault Weapon control. I would say that takes the NRA right out of the equation.

Yet another member of the lower armed end of the gene pool, performing a copy-cat act to get attention... all of which could have been prevented with a condom.

"Guns don't kill people do!" QUIT SELLING GUNS TO PEOPLE! Children? Teachers? Fireman? The most innocent and dedicated people in the world and some mentally ill person, wants to go out in a blaze of "gory!"

I seems these murderers, are intent on finding the most inhuman and vile way, to get their names in the media. I cannot allow myself to think of something more gruesome than Newtown.

WAYNE LAPIERRE, you need to be shown pictures of these victims. You need to feel what the rest of America feels. It is time the NRA stop playing John Wayne and ban high powered rifle and assault weapons. CRAZY LaPIERRE, needs a heart transplant. He hasn't got one. He also needs a brain. The Tin man has more common sense. It is all about MONEY, not the second amendment. And most gun advocates choose to misinterpret the second amendment anyway.

I am so sorry for these volunteers and their families. I know those who lost their lives are in peace. They dedicated themselves to giving. God be with you, everyone.

The one officer/volunteer firefighter was good friend of ours. Our thoughts and prayers go out to the families of the West Webster Fire District and the Webster Police Department along with all the mutual aid Depts.

This story is not true... It can't be it must be fiction for propaganda purposes, I know because it is illegal to have a gun there

This happened 10 minutes from me. It's true. In your effort to be snarky, you failed to realize that only NYC has a ban on handguns. The rest of the state is allowed to have handguns (after a lengthy permit process) and long guns.

But when are you "ban everything" people going to realize. An AR-15 round is smaller and less powerful than most of the most popular deer hunting rifles, a 30.06 for example.

An AR-15 is NOT a military grade weapon. The government made up the term "Assault weapon" to place restrictions on them in order to make them illegal. Ruger makes a .22 rifle with a 10 round magazine. It's called the 10/22. It's been a popular rifle since the mid-60s. That is a semi-automatic rifle. You are screaming to ban a .22, calling it an assault weapon?

Typically, the only people in the US, who have a rifle that's capable of shooting more than one round per pull of the trigger (burst or full auto) are military and law enforcement.

If you ban semi-automatics, you take a tradition away from hunters, young boys shooting at squirrels, farmers protecting their herds from coyotes and wolves. At the same time, you guarantee that a sociopath will have at least 5 to 10 minutes of safety while gunning down as many people as possible before the police arrive.

But at least you'll be happy, right?

A MESSAGE FROM THE NRA:

Obviously Congress should act IMMEDIATELY to provide funding to arm every single firefighter in America, include semi-automatic assault weapons among the equipment aboard every firetruck and emergency vehicle and have an armed police officer assigned on every firetruck and emergency vehicle. The fact that they have not already done this is crazy. The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun!

In closing, I'm a little teapot short and stout,

here is my handle here is my spout ..."

Sincerely,

Wayne LaPierre, Executive Vice-President and Whackaddodle of the Board

National Rifle Association

BigDuke, if it bothers you much. Why in the world would you click the link. And then you actually clicked the link to comment. Please return to whatever news site that you regularly go to. The rest of us wish to stay informed.

Been lots of articles about guns and shootings, stabbings.

The NRA would have us arm all our schools, fire departments, public libraries, etc. without taking into consideration the costs we would have to endure. Instead of offering a viable solution to the gun problem their solution is to get more guns and hire more people to protect us... from ourselves! This whole thing is ludicrous.

I don't know why these people always have to shoot the good people. If were going to keep having mass shooting,s I wish they would start shooting the bad guys, drug dealers, big bankers, dishonest car mechanics, big oil executives, members of the military-industrial complex, NRA officials. I really hate it when they keep shooting the good guys, teachers, fire fighters, policemen, 7 year old kids. Really, if we have to have mass shootings, at the very least, they could start shooting the right people.

The NRA wants to turn America into a Terminator 2, Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome type of civilization...they want us to carry guns to schools, and maybe even to put out fires. They want us to buy automatic weapons and keep it in our homes so that troubled people with virtually undetectable mental illness (for which psych drugs only exasperate) to have access to them or for psychopaths to take out their rage on innocent victims. They see gun restrictions as an attack on their culture, their way of life. They lost the election so they are going to hold on to their guns in case the liberal, left leaning, hippies and yippies with their school busing and pro-choice, civil rights platform take over their neighborhoods.

This wouldn't have happened if all firefighters were armed to the teeth! Hell, let's arm EVERYBODY! That'll fix the heartbreaking genocide that is being inflicted upon our nation by gun-wielding murderers. Even if it doesn't, at least all of the selfish, immature wannabe Rambos who cling pathetically to the Second Amendment will continue to own their pointless arsenals of deadly playthings, right? Right?

Gun control now. It's the right thing to do.

The NRA wants us to have to travel to Jack In The Box with our own posse - like we are movie stars, musicians, and athletes. You can bet that the NRA CEO has his own posse everywhere he goes - likely at government expense.

This "more is better" idea never works - the more guns everyone has, will only increase the violence. Gun owners like to claim that gun violence has gone down - not buying it. The way this statement is true is buy separating gun incidents into categories, so it only looks like gun violence has gone down...just like George W. Bush not putting wars on the Federal budget.

The only acceptable number of crimes committed with a gun is ZERO - saying gun violence has gone down is like Geek Squad telling you they fixed 45% of your computer, and you saying "well, that's good enough for me".

guns are not going away..... they arent going to just get sucked up into the sky magically.... if you ban a few guns, it's pointless because there are already 300 Million plus out in circulation

you anti gun nuts don't get that? you can't possibly be so naive to think that banning a weapon that looks military, and is only used in about 2% of gun crime because its so large, will make one bit of difference in violence when there are 300 Million guns out there...

gun violence is down by half the last 8 years since the ban expired.... a ban makes zero sense....

if you guys get a ban, you are getting fooled by Congress into doing something that means nothing yet again.... and when 50 kids get killed next year by a guy with pistols... it's going to be ON YOU anti gun nuts because you've got the clout now to do something real and you are blowing it with this useless ban crap.... do... something.... real.....

comprehensive background checks... mental health... national hotline.... better security

What if the assailant stabbed these two firefighters to death? Would you call for a closing of all Kitchen Capers?

Seems to me that the shooting ended when police (with guns) showed up. Just saying. IF the NRA is to blame for EVERY shooting that occurs, then Walmart should be to blame for every stabbing. LIke a few months ago a woman a few blocks from me stabbed her husband with scissors. Maybe we should ban them too.

Goodness, frstrm! There are 50k people every year who are injured or killed in gun violence. When knives start to cause that sort of carnage, we can discuss it, but until your irrelevant fantasies come true, let's stick to the subject, okay?

Gun control now. It's the right thing to do.

Even if the firemen had been armed. Even if the neighbors had been armed, this ambush would have happened and the firemen would have been killed. I favor people's right to have a gun in their home. I favor strict registration, strict liability for the sellers, manufacturers, and the owners of guns. Gun owners should be required to carry a minimum of $2 million in liability. Background checks by states should be implemented, and the feds should require that the system be uniform and seamless for sharing and use among states and their public safety personnel.

Black ops

No matter what your religion PRAY for this country!! These sick sob's will find a way to kill people no matter what! Obviously we have a lot of mentally ill people and/or sadistic in this country.

Okay, okay....rather than making my very pertinent argument that, because the Neo-NAZI's of America are well-armed with untracable weapons that the Fed would never be able to confiscate all of, and because the Neo-NAZI's of America are also the one commiting these crimes; like the NAZI's during the Later Days of the Weimar Republic, as they sought to DIS-Arm any and all German Citizens who they "didn't like", like the well-armed NAZI's who attacked their OWN German Radio Stations - while wearing stolen Polish Army Uniforms - in order to "excuse" Operation Barbarosa; or, the Invasion of Poland that BEGAN World War Two; or making the point that, IF We, The People ALLOW these kinds of attack to do to us exactly what they're INTENDED to Do To US - which is to put us in a position where We, The Now-Disarmed American Veterans Who You Could Trust To Maintain The Civil Order Dictated By The Constitution and The Bill Of Rights, have to go up against a WHOLE BUNCH of well-armed, Neo-NAZI Thugs.....as they're undoubtedly taking steps to infiltrate the Police Forces, too; just look at what Ernst Rohm did!

Other than making these Valid Points, which are derived from my own personal experiences as a Civil Rights Activists (I'm the most "Pro-Gun Peacenik" you've EVER MET!), I simply have to point out that - even with just some basic High School Metal Shop-learned Machine Tool Skills - not to mention the kind of 3D Printer Tech that's now "out there" - as well as some basic Metal Stock that I could easily purchase in a zillion places, I could make a gun - any gun, even a Fully Auto Sub-Machine of Machine Gun - in about an hour or two.

Not that I feel that feeling that there is sometimes a need for We, The People to be armed is the 'best way' to feel......It's just that the ol Machivelian Analyzer keeps smoking and making strange noises every time I hear "Good Hippies" being led astray by the Appalingly Violent Actions of those who, very really, want to DISARM ALL OF US - just like they did to the SDP, CSP, etc., during the Rise of the Third Reich! - so that they can engage in EVEN MORE, EVEN MORE APPALLING STUFF!!!

@nyetGopper --- More government and more laws! Now there's a new approach. If criminals disregard current laws they will likely obey future laws. ROTFLMAO! Gun laws are not the problem. Personal conduct IS.

This is a very sad situation. One of the dead was a high school graduate 1 1/2 years ago. The alleged shooter was a convicted, jailed and released murderer (killed his grandmother).

We don't know who owned the weapons, bit it was likely not the shooter considering his background. If he did own them, the system failed in many ways. If he didn't who ever did own them committed the same wrong that the mother in Connecticut did, not securing their guns.

I don't care about the NRA. What we need is better control, licensing rifles, better background checks and followups, laws to secure registered guns (like in safes). No matter what laws are in place, the bad guys will get guns. We need our responsible citizens who chose to own guns to secure them.

As to the NRA's suggestion on armed guards in schools, it ain't going to happen. What should happen is to have several teachers, administrators trained to carry a concealed weapon so that a perpetrator wouldn't know who. Imagine CT if the Principal had a weapon when she tried to stop the shooter.

But this story is sad, volunteers responding. My heart goes out to the families.

OK- nyetGopper- YOU are the one person who I agree with MOST closely. YES- gun manufacturers and owners need to be held civil ally and criminally responsible. and why should gun manufacturers be able to keep manufacturing so many weapons? OH yeh- profit! Medications are taken off the market and banned from production when they do more harm than good, why not-so guns? there is NO reason in this advanced nation with plenty of law enforcement personal and grocery stores do we need so many weapons! Most people who own guns don't even get the chance to use them when there is a crime against them. those firemen , even if armed with 5 guns each, would not have had the chance to use them. Just like if your home was broken into in the middle of the night. If your gun is stored properly you would not be able to get to it, while being robbed. the mentally ill will get their hands on guns regardless of whether they themselves can buy them- case in point- CT. we need to stop gun manufacturing (there are already 300 million) If we at least TRY to make guns avail to the military and police, gun violence will eventually decrease.

I didn't edit my comment in time- meant to say if we at least try to make guns ONLY available to police and military!

Another "work" to get everyone into a frenzy...

Just asking the question? Would the media be capable of scouring the country for every gun related crime in an effort to abridge more of the rights of American citizens? After 9/11/01 it stands to reason. Yet with all the laws passed to secure out country are we any safer? No unless you factor in the assassinations of most of the terrorist leaders by our government. So in real life offense may just trump defense and more law...something to consider.

By the way before anyone jumps to conclusions I own no guns personally...but I do defend the right of American citizens to do so as protection against evil no matter where it resides.

And now, the police have chased and killed the shooter. What is going on?? The Big problem IS All the State and Federal mental Hospitals Shut Down by "BigPharma" Corporations so they can peddle their ineffective pills to Mentally GONE individuals, this NutJob shooter For One, whom will be revealed to have "Mental Issues". Our Founding ForeFathers had the "Common Sense" to build Mental Hospitals for these Mentally Deranged AND VERY VERY DANGEROUS NutCases, who were Previously running around with guns, like this NutCase, and Incarcerated Them where They Are Locked Up and Can't hurt anyone. Take All the guns away and shut down gun dealers and manufacturers in the US You Say???? OK, and ONLY the Criminals and NutJobs will get and have guns AnyWay. There are gun manufacturers Around The Globe with incredibly lethal weapons of choice ready to sell them to anyone with money like this NutJob. As lucifer has stated.."Now, the world is mine and i will fight to keep it." With our mental Hospitals closed down, a congress of Amoral AND Always "On The Take law makers" and a World Supply of Guns and Ammunition, We, America have a Real Problem.

Some get the death penalty for killing another..so they release this POS after 17 years..UNREAL.

The law should change..if you kill a human your freedom is over on this planet ( unless its self-defence)!

The best truthful and common sense post here is at... post 3.11 by Geriatric Gypsy.

You moron anti gun nuts, No amount of gun laws are going to stop these idiots from getting guns to kill someone. You just don't get it, unfortunatly you never will.

Just to let you know you are hearing more and more about gun violence for a reason, the far left loons want it that way and you all are so stupid you cannot see that. Gun violence overall is down in this counrty but to hear the so called media it's never been worse. When you all finally get enough of your fellow morons to follow you, then the goverment will have no choice but to outlaw guns or make them so hard to get, then you idiots will understand what gun violence is about. Those that don't follow the laws are going to have a field day. You will get exactly what you deserve!

I hope they drag his scum sucking arse out to the garbage dump and burn his remains. Who would shoot a firefighter who is risking his/her life to save others. This guy was truly a peice of human garbage.

Well if Capital Punishment would have been done the 1st time then this would not have occurred..... Commit Murder you need to be SHOT as soon as found guilty.....

This POS killed his own Grandmother with a hammer....That was a felony....He cannot own/possess/or even TOUCH a gun....To do so would be another felony.....Guess he thought all the laws on the books were'nt directed at him....More gun laws would do nothing....The EXISTING criminal justice system FAILED these Firemen.....So who is really to blame???..Maybe the people who cry about criminals having it too hard in jail...or why do we need the death penalty???..or why should the mental health care providers share patient information with law enforcement????..I'd like to know:..Why was he not given a needle after brutally killing his own Grandmother with a hammer?????.......Now if we only had one more law,,,,,...Maybe he would have obeyed it???????.....God Bless these Firemen,and thier families................U.S. Army Disabled Veteran

J_P_PatchesPal_1

"The NRA wants us to have to travel to Jack In The Box with our own posse - like we are movie stars, musicians, and athletes. You can bet that the NRA CEO has his own posse everywhere he goes - likely at government expense..."

Posse? Are you sure that you spelled that correctly? A BIG Posse! (What's the plural of posse?)

;-)

People can scream for anti gun laws all they want, we also can scream for illegal immegrants to go away. Fact is there is always going to be someone who will sell the guns and/or bring in the illegals as long as there is money to be made doing it. The reason I brought in the illegals idea is that we keep screaming for these laws that cannot or will not be enforced. I personally have a concealed weapon permit but also know of someone that sold guns without a dealers license and he was a retired LAW officer. Don't count on laws to protect us that is just a sad fact people who do bad things are not really interested in the law. God bless the killed and injured firemen and their families and I hope that the gun man's sister is found alive and well. I would however like to know how someone who beat their Grandma to death is out of jail this soon.

Obviously a criminal justice failure. The guy was a bomb waiting to explode.Never should have been freed.

Had he been executed after killing his grandmother with a hammer in 1980, he wouldn't be here to do this.

Everyone thank the liberals who are against the death penalty for this tragedy. I wonder who else they've let out because they just needed a hug or we just didn't "understand" them.

So he killed in 1980. He killed in 2012. Are we going to give him another opportunity to kill???

I'm sorry to have to come into this discussion in this area,but this is ,once again,the first time the word"reply" has been allowed.Prior to this no one was allowed to make any pertinent statement.

I am five feet tall,I weight one hundred pounds, I'm sixty years old,and I carry a .45 cal ACP,"automatic colt pistol".If you do not have a firearm,ANYTHING you own is MINE,because if I really want it,what are you going to do to stop me from taking it? Idiots,have alittle personal responsibility,the police may want to protect you from @!$%#s,but in all reality get serious! I carry a weapon because a police officer is too heavy. I trust my fellow human being to do what is right for them,which could be anything. Therefore I trust strangers as much as I trust a rabid dog.

"Gun control now. It's the right thing to do."

Yea. Granny doesn't need one.

Why was this lunatic let out of prison?

He should have been executed

If he was these first responders would be alive today

If NY had a death penalty these brave first responders would be alive today!

Under current gun control law this guy is already banned from having guns.You can see that does not stop gun crime.

This doesn't have anything to do with gun control.

It has to do with releasing a murderer back into society. This man killed his grandmother with a damn hammer. Anyone with the stones to beat to death another human being with a hammer... to stand there and pound another human to death... has no business being back on the streets.

The death of these firefighters lays at the hands of the parole board who felt he needed to be back in society.

screminmimi: if it there is a death and it is caused by a GUN SHOT WOUND, it has everything to do with gun control.

Another day, another two well publicized deaths.

ONE is too many. Time to repeal the "right to keep and bear arms" and YES, collect ALL the guns.

Anyone who disagrees just wants to be able to kill and should not have a gun in the first place.

So you can beat your grandmother to death with a hammer and get out of prison someday. Manslaughter? Exactly how do you repeatedly hit someone with a hammer and not intend to kill them. Typical "Let'em plea and we can have a three drink lunch and get in nine holes" type of prosecution and judicery in many parts of this country.

Under current gun control law this guy is already banned from having guns.You can see that does not stop gun crime.

One of the Jonesboro School shooters was stopped from getting a gun after he was released from lockup at 21. The backround check flagged his fingerprints even though he had a new name. The other Jonesboro shooter was released and went on to a long history of crime. Drug dealing and credit card fraud. He was caught with a illegally acquired handgun. The lessons here? Don't let them out or better execute more more often and backround checks can work.

The guy was a convicted monster who bashed in his Grandmas head in 1980....not stable and not allowed to own a gun,The NRA did not supply his weapon And really at this time nobody knows what kind of gun/weapons were used(they all can kill with use of a human who is blood thirsty,just as a boxcutter,knife,bomb ect) or how he got it.Maybe the missing sister's or The dead mothers,but this is no call for a gun ban,crap like this happens,especially after a tragedy like Sandy Point,there seems to be copy cats just as in Serial killers they get copycats,so hold on Libs and whoever deems this a crisis too good to let pass without kneeJerk reactions to punish innocent law abiding citizens.Im so sorry somebody's Son,spouse,Daddy,sibling and friends will not be home tonight,our thoughts and prayers from my family will be with all who have suffered in these last few weeks including soldiers who won't be coming home to those that love them and have fought to keep America free so we can have discussions and speak freely still.Thank You Family's for all the sacrifices you continue to endure.

Devil's Son,

"Exactly how do you repeatedly hit someone with a hammer and not intend to kill them."

I guess you tell the cops, "Oh! The hammer just kept slipping over and over again as I was trying to drive that nail into her head... Oh, I meant, into the chair she was sitting in." :)

dirp -

I live alone in the woods, am a 61 year old female who has had to use my rilfe twice to run off men trying to rob me.

You're not getting my gun.

And those firefighters would not be dead or injured if the damn "justice system" had done its job and the parole board and done its job. You can't take care of the people problem by trying to control the gun problem.

The guns are already out there and you can't "gather them all up" and thinking you can shows your ignorance.

Yup, you anti gun, anti capital punishment liberals just keep letting these @!$%#heads out of jail. How about they live with YOU when they get out???

Drip......................there is no hope for you. In your fanasty world of no real answers and knee jerk reactions life must be great.

I'm not saying some individuals don't deserve the death penalty.

For that matter, anyone who kills, particularly with a gun, should immediately be taken out behind the court house and shot or hung.

I'm saying remove the ability of ANYONE to have a gun.

Anyone who has a gun is just an opportunity away from being a killer. They already have means and motive.

To ...bigduke""""

Israel rejects US gun lobby claims on its security

Dec 24, 2012

By AMY TEIBEL
Associated Press

JERUSALEM (AP) -- Israel's policy on issuing guns is restrictive, and armed guards at its schools are meant to stop terrorists, not crazed or disgruntled gunmen, experts said Monday, rejecting claims by America's top gun lobby that Israel serves as proof for its philosophy that the U.S. needs more weapons, not fewer

Far from the image of a heavily armed population where ordinary people have their own arsenals to repel attackers, Israel allows its people to acquire firearms only if they can prove their professions or places of residence put them in danger. The country relies on its security services, not armed citizens, to prevent terror attacks

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_ISRAEL_GUN_CONTROL?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-12-24-15-16-29

I'm trying to see the gun-banning liberals point of view here.

They would want to know what kind of gun he used so they can try to ban it. After all it was obviously the guns fault this happened, not the psycho ex-con that had previously beaten his grandma to death with a hammer. The liberal justice system deemed him no longer a threat to society and released him.

Too bad he took his own life, I'm sure he could have been rehabilitated again if it weren't for that evil gun. It's the NRA's fault this happened. Let's lock that NRA guy up for life. He is the real cause of this tragedy.

Once we've taken care of the NRA and gotten rid of guns once and for all, we need to take a look at hammers too. Did you know that even a child can walk into a hardware store and buy a hammer in this country? And there's no way to track it.

We have banned smoking indoors almost everywhere and are restricting it outdoors in many places. We've banned large soft drinks in New York City, and Happy Meals in San Francisco. We've forced people to wear seat belts when driving, helmets on motorcycles, kids have to wear helmets to ride bicycles. No ban or restriction is too severe if it can save even one life.

Someday in the near future, we will have banned every way for someone to injure or kill themselves or anyone else. Then we can live our lives safely and securely in the loving care of our dear government.

Oh, and we really value diversity too, as long as everyone thinks like us.

Seriously people? Gun ownership is not the issue, but I'll address it anyway since the anti-gun crowd insists on blaming the gun every single time something bad happens. The real issue is with our criminal justice system. This guy never should have been able to commit this heinous act because he never should have been let out of prison. The psycho beat his own grandmother to death with a hammer for Christ's sake, and he's let out of prison after only 17 years? That is a total failure on the part of the criminal justice system and also a gun control failure. This is proof positive that gun control just doesn't work, because he should not have been able to aquire a firearm being a felon. It shows that criminals and psychos will still be able to get their hands on guns regardless of the law. Oh wait... I forgot. According to all of you anti-gun fanatics, the act of banning guns will magically make every single firearm out there disappear so we won't have to worry about criminals having them, right?

Is there such thing as ENOUGH! in the USA or shall we simply self-destruct?

The NRA would hate this one: the history of American killing sprees with some interesting studies on the causes can be found in this 2010 documentary (on Netflix streaming if you have it).

"Murder by Proxy: How America Went Postal"

Also - check out this very interesting list of 2010 Presidential and Congressional candidates who paid the NRA thousands to run for office! (A Protection Racket, indeed!):

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/read-list-of-us-politicians-donating- to national-rifle-association/310570-2.html

Still can't find the sister? Hopefully she wasnt burned after being killed in that house.

..Meanwhile, some scumbag lawyer is probably enjoying his money from getting this guy out of jail.

Why is he out of jail, should be the number one question, he did not shoot, but he killed his own grandmother to DEATH with a hammer, he bludgeoned an 90 something year old woman

60 years old and 5 foot tall . you need a weapon you got the short end of the stick. YUCK YUCK.

If you are worried about losing personal possesions you have already lost.

There is only one thing worth fighting for a human life. Guns will never go away and they should'nt for people who are responsible gun owners.This guy killed his grandmother with a hammer why was he even able to walk the street ? It just shows even nut jobs can get a gun if they really want one. There has to be someone that sells it to them at a huge profit. And this guy was not a gansta so please dont use the race card.

dirp

I'm not saying some individuals don't deserve the death penalty.

For that matter, anyone who kills, particularly with a gun, should immediately be taken out behind the court house and shot or hung.

I'm saying remove the ability of ANYONE to have a gun.

Anyone who has a gun is just an opportunity away from being a killer. They already have means and motive.

How in the hell did you come up with that? How does having a gun give someone a motive to kill? Do you even know the meaning of the word, or have you just been watching a little too much Law and Order through a smoky haze while hitting your bong all day? And as far as having the means to kill, do you have hands? If so, then you have the means to kill. Better cut them off and lock you up, because you are a danger to society.

You make it sound like all gun owners are blood thirsty monsters that live to do nothing but kill. I am a gun owner, and not once have I relished the thought of potentially needing to use a gun to defend myself or my family. Am I prepared to do so if the need arises? Yes. Does that mean I would enjoy it? Absolutely not.

La Musica,Thank you for being one of the few decent and caring posters.The previous posters have no compassion for others and that makes this an even sadder day for all.Two firefighters injured,two firefighters murdered and people can't stop with their gun issues for one moment to have a heart for these firefighters and their families.Thank you La Musica.

I live in Rochester and it is being reported that there is no active shooter. They have not said if they were dead or in custody. We are waiting on the press conference any minute. The place of the fire is a small community. These firefighters were volunteers. This sicko was laying and waiting for these firefighters to arrive to kill them. The fire was burning for over 5 hours before the firemen could get in there. Along with the SWAT team, the airport firetruck was called in as well. They are now in the process of containing the fire. It is a sad day. My thoughts are with the families of these victims.

The article said the shooter was dead after a police chase and that it wasn't clear if it was sucicide or not. So yeah, I think they'll have no problem catching him.

The article appears to be updated on the fly with more recent facts. So it's possible that it didn't include info on the death of the suspect when LaMusica worte his post three hours ago.

cleaning lady...yes, it's sad when tragedies like this happen and people care more about debates, politics, and blame than the innocent lives lost.

@Mark D, yes that is exactly what happened. When I posted, nothing was known about the shooter. Thank you for being the voice of reason for others.

LaMusica and cleaninglady, it's so nice to see appropriate responses to a tragedy like this one. Your concerns and feelings mirror my own. It makes me feel better to know there are still people who care and experience empathy and sympathy. I often skip the comment section because I find the number of hateful and disassociated comments as upsetting as what happens in the world sometimes. Today I'm glad I didn't. My thoughts are with the families of those killed and with their co-workers and what sounds like a small and nice community... all of them will suffer terribly.

Black ops

The story has been updated to reveal that this felon killed his Grandmother with a hammer in 1980.Had he have been given life or the death penalty this would not have happened.I'm hoping against all odds that his sister is found safe and sound.My condolences to those injured and those who are deceased due to this senseless and unspeakable crime.

Holly88,Thank you for being another caring and compassionate human being.I still have faith that as a whole society is good.Very nice comments for these firefighters family,friends,co-workers and the community as a whole.

Its amazing that people don't read all of the articles. The shooter shot himself once police arrived. It looks like gun laws really work being this guy was a convited murder who wasn't allowed to purchase a fire arm. Looks like law enforcement should have kept an eye on this guy.

They should have fried his arss in 1981 after he killed his grandmother. What a piece of crap!

It's so sad to hear about the deaths and injuries.

used a hammer the first time and gun the second time that he obtained illegally. Mental health was not a problem ether. Looks as sane as most nut jobs. Death penalty for murder . Might be a good idea. Or just let this sh## live with the rest of us.

Why in the hell was this dude out of prison in the first place!! For God's sake, he murdered his grandmother by beating her to death with a hammer! He should have received a LIFE SENTENCE without possibility of parole.. If he had, those firefighters would still be alive! As usual the system is more interested in handing out 20 year to life sentences to someone carrying a couple of ounces of pot then they are in sentencing those who are a REAL danger to the public! I think the families of these poor guys should sue the heck out those responsible for letting this killer loose on society, someone needs to own it!

Criminal Justice System in this country is broken.

The Mental Health System in this country is broken.

Our politicians are broken.

Our universal sense of morality religion, and ethics is broken.

Nutcases that should have been fried decades ago like they did in the 50's and crazy kids with video-brains and illegal weapons are murdering everybody - and we wonder why.

My condolences to the two firemen and the future victims of a culture and society that will keep having these incidents until they get their heads out of their asses and go back to the way it was 50 years ago. THAT is the ONLY solution.

you had me until you started talking about frying people. are you familiar with ANY of the stories of people who spent years on death row, only to be proved totally innocent? it could be your a$$ that fries someday - your innocent a$$.

can anyone tell me why a murderer was ever paroled at all in the first place? may god bless those innocent lives that he so ruthlessly impacted. why don't we bring back the death penalty for murder and then start using it? i have been told by some of my liberal friends that capital punishment does not deter crime. i beg to differ - it is a definitely effective deterrant to the criminal guilty of the murders. it is time to exact the ultimate punishment for these scumbags.

I guess if you live in New York you can kill your grandmother with a hammer, get out in 17 years and go for more! Why did he only get 17 years? Who was boohooing thinking about giving him the death penalty the first goround. Looks like he even knew thats what he needed!!!

Buttons51

quite simply put over crowding in prisons

A couple of the collapsed comments above ranted about banning hammers... and that people kill people, not guns.

If the guy attacked those fighter fighters with a hammer, I am very certain that no one would have been killed and he would have been subdued.

Once again...... a shooter that should have been BEHIND BARS already..... released on society to kill again.....

Why all of a sudden are all these crazies going on a murder rampage? Is it the holidays?

Firefighters should not have to carry guns to protect themselves.

From what the police chief was saying, it looks like this guy was trying to flush the residents out into open space where he could just pick them off. The original fire was apparently a car fire which later engulfed the house and spread to the others. If you want to use fire to drive a bunch of people into a kill box, a car fire designed to become a house fire then conflagration is definitely the way to go. The chief made another important point: this piece of land was a peninsula, meaning once this guy flushes residents into the open, it's "fish in a barrel".

As far as dangerous people go, Spengler is further up the food chain than Lanza; Spengler had a real gameplan for killing people. He set the car fire so he could have a conflagration in motion while he moved into position on high ground. The only thing that went wrong for Spengler is the conflagration did not develop fast enough. Responders were already on the scene before residents could be flushed into the open, meaning he had to take the responders out ahead of where he really wanted to. If the conflagration were to develop the way Spengler had planned, residents and responders would have been out in the open on a peninsula, with Spengler shooting down on them from the high ground; it would have been the "fish in a barrel" he was looking for.

One good thing that can come out of this is people learning to pay attention to their surroundings. Always observe people, especially behavior and demeanor. Understand something about a person who comes across as scary, menacing or dangerous: if they're the real deal, you not only know it but feel it just by being anywhere near them. Regardless of where you live, knowing the physical layout of the surrounding area will go a long way to saving your life. You need to be able to identify your quickest escape routes, your escape routes which put the most obstacles between you and someone trying to harm you, and routes you should avoid because they offer you zero advantage.

Yea buddy,Lets not have the death penalty and let these fuc*s back out on the streets to kill again. He was paroled after beating his grandmother to death with a hammer? I hope all you anti death penalty pukes enjoy this one.To bad this firefighter wasn,t one of your relatives. You all make me sick!!!!!

He got out on parole within a few years because he was charged with "manslaughter" after beating his grandma to death with a hammer.

Why was he charged with manslaughter is a mystery to me.

My condolences to these hero's families. So tired to hear of these stories on Christmas time. It's been too much already this month.