Until there is employment available and business starts paying real wages that someone can raise their standard of living on, the problem is unsolvable.

If you want to know where our country is heading (without a strong manufacturing base), you only need to look at Detroit.

Until there is employment available and business starts paying real wages that someone can raise their standard of living on, the problem is unsolvable.

Now. I am not anti-union, but you have to admit that the ridiculous Auto Union had a huge impact on Detroit's downfall and started the trend of manufacturing over-seas.

Is it the unions being unreasonable, or companies being unreasonable about how much a worker should make? Corporations think people should live on scraps or get a second job while CEO's make 300 times what the average worker makes. The attitude of business sucks in this country.

Funny, but no one seemed to notice the union's impact until, well . . . that big ol' riot back in '67 . . .

Dem-o-can, In the case of the Auto Unions, they were making way more than the job was worth. The people who are sour on Unions probably got that way because of the UAW.

Worry about what the CEOS make why should not a working man be able to make a wage to live on

Dem-o-can

Is it the unions being unreasonable, or companies being unreasonable about how much a worker should make?

I think it is both, with the workers caught in the middle....

I suppose there once was a time when Unions actually stood up for the little man, but now they exists for nothing but their own benefit.

Jobs and the economy pay the ultimate sacrifice.

Unions have nothing to do with the murder rate. The number 1 job in the city is selling drugs. All the dealers are armed, and usually better armed than the police. When they have a problem with someone they don't go to small claims court. They try and gun you down.

boon

Crime grows as the economy dies. The economy in Detroit is dying because the Auto Industry is dying and Detroit did not diversify. Part of the reason for the death of the Auto Industry is unrealistic Unions that care more for their own pockets than the workers they supposedly supported.

Unions share the responsibility for this murder rate.

@PJ - maybe you could explain to me how Germany auto manufacturers make tons of cash, make the best cars in the world - and their workers are all highly paid UNION WORKERS.

'We've lost respect for life': Detroit records deadliest year in decades

Respect for anything just does not go together with Detroit in the same breath. This sh*thole does not offer anything.

Raze it.

kev_mi

maybe you could explain to me how Germany auto manufacturers make tons of cash, make the best cars in the world - and their workers are all highly paid UNION WORKERS.

Because their unions are legitimately for the workers and not their own selfish goals. Greed killed our unions effectiveness a long time ago.

It's hard to make sure the workers get paid when you are so busy stuffing their cash in your Union pockets!

I'd be interested to know the grade point average and education level of the criminals. Most made the conscious choice to not learn, drop out and embark on a life of the gangsta attitude and crime - since they were kids.

Its simple math, if you can only hire 1 person because it costs to much due to unions. With out Unions you can hire 3 more people because its cheaper.

Sad story when you think about were this is happening, used to be a nice place.

I may be in error, but off the top of my head---there was a report about the tests given to Detroit 8th graders a few weeks ago---7% passed writing, 3% passed math. The reason? Demographics. Sadly, most will not admit that obvious fact.

The US government should build a huge military post occupying the East side of Detroit and have it fit snugly next to the US/Canadian border. Drug smuggling would take a massive hit, & Detroit would be under constant surveillance by our soldiers. The land could be bought cheaply, our government already has bottomless pockets in regards to military budgets, so bulldozing all of the abandoned houses could be done quickly. The soldiers on base would increase Detroit's economy 10 fold, and the typical Detroit scum would run for the hills.

Workingpoor is right, but not in the way intended. There will never be increased employment opportunities in Detroit, and there will most definitely never an influx of jobs that pay living wages. Therefore, the problem is unsolvable. The only hope is for the city to eventual disappear.

I ask a question. Why are the prices so high for everything we need to exist? It spelled Greed. Since Unions got into the battle over the paycheck, prices of every thing we buy has gone up. When Unions started to demand big paychecks prices of every thing has gone up. Union Greed is behind all of our problems. The Unions are the reason prices are so high.

So, with unions now at less than 10% of the work force, why are prices still going up? Greed. Even with the unions gone.

I ask a question. Why are the prices so high for everything we need to exist? It spelled Greed. Since Unions got into the battle over the paycheck, prices of every thing we buy has gone up. When Unions started to demand big paychecks prices of every thing has gone up. Union Greed is behind all of our problems. The Unions are the reason prices are so high.

That is a very narrow minded view. How about viewing NAFTA, instead. Things will come up, again, for workers. Unfortunately, it is going to have to be an international effort.

If you want to talk about greed, let's talk about the salaries and golden parachutes of FAILURE CEO'S (let alone the successful ones), Let's talk about making money for shareholders that do nothing but hold shares (why are they more important than those that work to produce?), let's talk about the U.S. economy that is dependent on the middle class spending money while the middle class is being squeezed out of existence.

Worrying about Unions and their "greed" is pretty lame, at this point.

So, with unions now at less than 10% of the work force, why are prices still going up? Greed. Even with the unions gone.

Well said. So Frederick, you want to talk about greed?

We can all agree that lack of work and poverty brings out crime and violence anywhere, but here we're talking about murders. There is obviously something wrong beyond poverty that an influx of jobs can't bring. And that is related to the human condition, or lack of.

We need to solve a much bigger problem in our country than just jobs and our economy.

Jake: It's guaranteed that your post is going to be collapsed, and you'll probably be suspended, simply because liberals hate it when they're forced to face reality.

I can't say that I agree with you on white people showing blacks how to act respectably, but you bring up an interesting question which is why are there no areas in this country with a high concentration of blacks or Latinos that is clean, has low-crime, and where anyone can walk around without fearing for their life?

Can't wait for the Pollyanish, liberal spin I know is coming...

.

Until there is employment available and business starts paying real wages that someone can raise their standard of living on, the problem is unsolvable.

So the people in Detroit have two choices - work or murder?

our government already has bottomless pockets in regards to military budgets

The real bottomless pockets are obamas welfare programs.

Ouch

Detroit needs more morals and less gun control. Seriously. I just did a quick check. Utah, which has some of the most liberal gun laws and some of the highest numbers of people who go to church on a regular basis has a murder rate of 1 in 54,000. compare that to Detroite with a murder rate of 1 in 1,700. It's not about the guns, it's about the culture. Crack down on the moral decay of the society and you will see the murder rate go down. It's going to take moms and dads getting married and staying married and actually raising their kids. It will take parents actually going to church and teaching their kids morals. It will take a while but it is this countries only hope.

Detroit Police Chief Logan said the criminal activity in the city comes from a small minority of the city's population

If the problem comes from a small minority of the city's population why can't they get them off the streets permanently?

I feel so sorry for the people who are trying to life good decent lives and every day they have to live in fear because some criminal element might be out looking for trouble.

The population is dwendling because people who do not choose to be abused by the "minority" are getting out. I don't blame them.

I still say, wall up the city after you get the respectable people out and let the criminals have it. No guards to pay, just let them see how long it takes to either decide to live life respectably or die as criminals.

“We’ve just lost respect for each other; we’ve lost respect for life,”

The problem is that no one has a sense of PRIDE anymore. Once the jobs were gone and more people became dependent on the government to help them out, they lost their pride.

They have nothing to be proud about. They don't work, so there is no pride in a job well done, if they don't work, they cant afford a home, therefore, there is no pride in a lovely home. Its a vicious spiraling circle. This eats away at your self esteem and eventually they become so numb that they turn to crime.

They are just dependent on the government and jealous of one who tries to become successful and self supporting trying to break the cycle.

And yes, unions did destroy that city, just as they destroyed the steel industry in Pittsburgh, however, Pittsburgh bounced back and found other resources and is now thriving. Unions USED to be for the worker, now its just about lining their own pockets and bankrupting cities....all while brainwashing its members.

Zero respect for life begins with abortion.

5,140 African American babies were aborted in Detroit area in 2010 alone.

www.toomanyaborted.com

Abortion=culture of indifference to death/life

clwyd-2621393

The loss of "Respect for Life" begins with gun ownership. It continues with the words of the NRA! Gun ownership then continues to breed lack of respect for life!

That's completely assinine. I own weapons, because I value my life and the lives of my family and neighbors. I don't go out randomly shooting people. I use my weapons primarily for hunting, but should someone threaten me or mine, I feel comfortable that I can respond faster than the police.

The 2nd Amendment should be repealed. It begins with the words for a Militia and never meant for everyone to have the right to own guns!

Do you understand how our country was founded? Were the subjects of English crown armed before forming militias or after. Before. The citizens had arms, formed militias and overthrew the tyranny of crown. The founders of our country and authors of the Constitution were quite aware that a disarmed citizenry was powerless against an armed government.

Nice to hear from someone like Atlas. CLwYD isn't proud to be an American. The NRA is to blame? cyywld, do some research. The gangbangers rule that city, and they don't use legal guns. A question, what percentage of blacks and hispanics are responsible for the violent crimes? Just a question. Anyone have the answer? How many of the criminals are on public assistance? Just asking.

gorushandbeck,

So legal or illegal, how did those guns get there in the first place? When someone is downing you don't throw more water on them nor do you make more guns available!

gorushdandbeck,

I don't know how many are on public assistance and neither do you!

Probably not as many as you think or as few as I think!

Atlas, your completely right! The problem most of these people will not recognize or admit is that we've raised 2-3 generations of people who are 'entitlement' babies; they don't want to get a good education; they don't want to work at a job and move up; their parents don't care because they did the same thing growing up; the 'ganster lifestype' is admired and promoted all over the place; there is no 'moral compass' in the country anymore becuase we can talk about God in the public square, schools, ect......the result of all this is cities like Detroit all over the place where people don't care. That's why Obama won these people's vote......it's not your fault, it's the rich people's fault and I'm going to take their money and give it to you'! Sound familiar? I'm afraid we're headed down a 'long-dark road'!!!!

Atlas,

You are talking about 200+ years ago and the 2nd Amendment begins with to form a militia. I don't read anywhere in the news about people protecting their families and neighbors all I read is about the killing of family members and neighbors with guns!

Detroit is in their fifty-first straight year of Democratic leadership.

Chicago 81 years.

New York City murder rate has dropped significantly. They've been under Republican/Independent leadership for the last 18 years.

Any correlation? Just posing the question and I am NOT a Republican...Libertarian.

Oh geez, clwyd...read a little further. It also says the "right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." So, if I understand you right, people means militia? Or does militia mean people. I'm so confused.

pj-965429:

It is not unreasonable for a worker to make 30 dollars an hour or so when the company for which he works, for which he adds value, is bringing in 10s of millions of dollars and hour. It is only unreasonable to believe that wages have much impact all on the cars that the automakers sell. As production shifts overseas, do we notice any reduction in price related to the significant savings in those wages recognized by the company. The answer is a resounding "NO."

"People don't care when they hate their lives . . . "

When the economy, created by capitalism, squeezes and squeezes and squeezes, the cogs (common people such as myself) are going to get hot and bothered. We can argue whether capitalism is the best system but the symptoms of chaos are starting to nibble at the edges of our lovely country.

If you are in a position of control and power presently please read this: If you can somehow change your consumption rate and substantially share your wealth and power with those 'under' you, you will be doing what needs to be done to save yourself and to save our country.

I ask you: How many houses can you occupy at one time? How many automobiles can you drive? How many suits, shoes, dresses, etc., can you wear at one time? People aren't stupid, the 98% beating themselves to pulp trying to make a living while the upper crust have fur-lined sinks are growing extremely frustrated.

It doesn't take government action. It only takes for the powerful to let loose and quit acquiring and start living in a slightly more humble manner. (This might apply to sports people and entertainment people as well.) We've all read how so many people in management/owner positions make SIX HUNDRED TIMES the salary/wage of most others in their employment. That right there is the problem in my opinion.

So, corporate America, you have in large part created and are in large part promulgating this situation. It's yours in large part to solve. Hopefully you can do this without guns/police/violence. Time will tell.

Atlas,

Oh God Atlas. Those words are preceded by the words to maintain a militia first. We don't maintain a militia except for the National guard and those people should own guns. We are not living with a threat from the British, but a threat of too many guns!

Atlas,

Unless you have been asleep? Michigan has a republican governor!

Once again you right wing nuts have added words that I never said! I never said I wasn't proud of America. I just don't think more guns will solve a gun problem. More lies from the right! That is what lost the election for Mitt by 5,000,000+ votes. His many lies and being given the years Worst Lie Award from the Liars Club for saying, "Jeeps were going to be made in China. It lost him an election and will lose for you again!"

It is too bad Detroit isn't an island like Manhattan. It would benefit us all to turn it into a prison. (Escape from New York Reference)

Carryingconcealed, I know of a place that is 95% Latino and voted one of the safest cities in the U.S. for the last couple of years. El Paso, Texas. You keep thinking the way you do since us white folks never comitt murder and our white cities are so safe. Does the name Colorado and Conn. ring a bell genius?

if anyone is interested in what the problem is in Detroit; go to the Housing assistance web page, then go to the assistance web page for Detroit; a quick review will tell you, that 64% of all of Detroit is on one form of assistance or another; the city is now a majority Black community, with no employment opportunity's, terrible school system, collapsing infrastructure, surviving on Government handouts, a collapsing tax base, over 50% drop out rate from high school and inner-city gangs all over the city.

Chuckster,

Did an armed guard in Columbine save any lives? Great for El Paso, but I'll live where we don't have to use iron bars on our doors and windows and most people don't own guns! Most don't even lock their doors. It may be hard for some of you guns nuts to believe it, but it is true. No guns, no crime and no murders, of course, we are a medium town! I would never live in the state of Texas as it has destroyed its environment so badly I couldn't find one clean lake to swim in while visiting our friends there. They have the bars on everything and live in fear, but don't own a gun. They fear some of their neighbors who do own guns!

Its amazing how every one of the cities mentioned in the article is and has been run by liberal/progressives mayors and councils promising “justice” and free goodies to all their followers. While they get to travel around their cities in armed, military style convoys stuffed with paramilitary body guards dispensing a few crumbs, their citizens get slaughtered.

clwyd,

Curious. Are the "people" mentioned in the 2nd Amendment different from the "people" mentioned elsewhere in the Constitution? Such as the third word in the Preamble?

"We the people...."

The people, ARE the people.

Clwyd: are you Canadian? Because you sound like it. I live in an area with very low crime, friendly neighbors and almost everybody owns guns. Not just one or two but a dozen or more. Detroit does not have a gun problem, they have a morality problem.

Nothing "tim" said points to him being a nut. It's all true, just as it's true that all the politicians, from the president on down to the local politicians calling for banning guns, all carry weapons on their persons, and don't take a leak in a restaurant without a contingency of armed guards.

The newspaper that printed the names and addresses of all gun owners in the area hired ARMED guards to protect the person who printed the information.

You, clwyd, are the nut here.

"Jeeps were going to be made in China. It lost him an election and will lose for you again!"

I dont know about Jeeps but GM sure used their bailout money well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=Lvl5Gan69Wo

Did an armed guard in Columbine save any lives?

I keep seeing this question on the Vine.

My thought is that Columbine was the front runner in school shootings by students. The guard was most likely in a state of shock at the idea that young students would do something so cold blooded and evil. He never expected a threat like that to come from such a quarter and he was caught in such an "OMG!" moment he couldn't respond appropriately.

And he had probably been repeatedly cautioned to never, ever, fire his gun if a student was in the path of fire. That mental conditioning would have emotionally conditioned him to not harm a student in spite of what his eyes were telling him.

Detroit is a prime example of when savages take over a city.

It could be cleaned up, but they are not willing to state the true problem because it would be politically incorrect. It's a culture in that city now and it won't change with pretty words.

You're going to have to hurt some feelings. You're going to have to knock some heads. And, you're going to have to "eliminate" some people who refuse to change.

Detroit does have a problem it is the lack of police!! they had cut back on the police force because of poor spending. LESS police MORE CRIME. The democratic government of Detroit got them into deep financial problems. SO blame this on guns NOT, on Criminals, well depends on your definition of criminals. On stupidity well that is my opinion but then that is me.

clwyd-2621393, I honestly wish I lived where your ideal world is.

The only reason you need more police is because the people of this fair city have become to morally bankrupt to police them selves. It appears to me that the concept of right and wrong no longer enters into most of their thinking. It is about what they can get a way with or how they can take whatever they want. There will never be enough police to solve that problem.

rocky -

Regardless of how many police you have, if the people in a community won't help them when they try to investigate a crime the neighborhoods will never be safe.

There have always been areas in the big cities where law enforcement would not go except to pick up bodies, and then they would accompany the "meat wagon" in force, question the people gathered around the corpse who would say they knew nothing, leave, and that would about be the end of it.

Known drug dealers hang out on street corners and around the schools, drive by shootings, kids sleep under their beds instead of on them... and when children die walking home from school as collateral damage to the street gangs, the mothers cry and demand "justice," but these are the same mothers who won't talk and tell law enforcement anything about crimes in the neighborhood... because our laws are so screwed up they have no way to hold the criminal and keep him from killer the mother so she won't testify against him.

clwyd,

The definition of Militia, when the Bill of Rights was written, was every able bodied man of age to be called to service.

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials."
— George Mason, in Debates in Virginia Convention on
Ratification of the Constitution

"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then,that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom? Congress shall have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American ... The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the People."
— Tench Coxe, 1788.

Did an armed guard in Columbine save any lives? No. He was on lunch when the attack started and then only exchanged gunfire outside. He, and the resopnding police, did not go inside to confront the gunmen. They were cowards who hid behind their protocol to protect themselves instead of the defenseless people inside.

The 2nd Ammendment was absolutely written to expressly give rights to the people to keep and bear arms. The 2nd Ammendment contains 2 parts." A well regulated militia being neccesary to the security of a free State," that is the first part. Militia already being defined as every able bodied man of age to be called to service. Every man is to keep a suitable weapon, ammunition and a field pack ready in the event that they are called to sevice. They are required to have these things. "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.". The people, in every instance in the Constitution refers to every single citizen. Every citizen has the right to keep and bear arms. You believe that in this one instance that the framers used the word People and did not mean every citizen?

Say fedupwithfed, how do you reckon a person gets any pride in themselves, anyway? Do you think that the number of people you have killed, will do the trick? Or how many fatherless children you have? How about the number of your babymamas? Or the number of your prostitutes? How much dope you sell."Yep, I can see how that might do it.

Adversity strengthens assistance weakens. I really can't see how getting government's handouts, could foster pride in one's self. I have worked all my life and I am proud of it.

Paws93

Detroit is a prime example of when savages take over a city.

It could be cleaned up, but they are not willing to state the true problem because it would be politically incorrect. It's a culture in that city now and it won't change with pretty words.

You're going to have to hurt some feelings. You're going to have to knock some heads. And, you're going to have to "eliminate" some people who refuse to change.

No racism there. Let's "eliminate" the problem. Adolf is calling my friend....

I don't think I'm being hyperbolic at all. Honestly, do you hear what you're saying?

Smart Liberal .......isn't that the definition ;- )

I honestly wish I lived where your ideal world is.

My town is like that.

I think most of the country is like that. It's only the caricature that is the opposite.

Watch Bowling for Columbine again and see how the issue is fear, not reality.

Guns only make the fearful feel safe, and the criminals more effective.

clwyd,

I don't read anywhere in the news about people protecting their families and neighbors all I read is about the killing of family members and neighbors with guns

That would be because you are not looking for, or you choose to ignore, the many instances of guns used for defense. You could spend all day looking at videos of people defending themselves with guns; and those are just the videos available. You could spend weeks on google reading about the thousands of instances where people used guns in self defense. I will also call you a liar. While most instances do not fit the liberal media anti-gun position, some of those instances actually make national news. Remember the young mother in Oklahoma who was on the phone with a 911 operator while men were trying to break into her home? She shot the knife wielding intruder, to protect herself and the baby in her arms, as he broke through the door. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/05/okla-mom-shoots-intruder-no-charges_n_1186096.html

How about this 12 year old girl? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/20/oklahoma-girl-shoots-home-intruder_n_1992381.html

How about this 15 year old boy who used his Dad's AR-15? http://www.khou.com/news/crime/Burglary-suspect-shot-by-15-year-old-son-of-deputy-97430719.html

How about this 14 year old, babysitting 3 younger siblings, who shot a gun wielding intruder? http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/06/23/phoenix-boy-14-shoots-armed-intruder-while-watching-three-younger-siblings/

There are many more instances. You just have to look or at least be willing to see. You will likely dismiss these as meaningless because they do not fit your cause.

I wonder,

Adversity strengthens assistance weakens. I really can't see how getting government's handouts, could foster pride in one's self. I have worked all my life and I am proud of it.

How about your Mom and Dad, your school teachers, coaches, bosses? Did they weaken you when they assisted to you to become what you are? Why is help only bad when it comes from Government?

If you think you have lived your life "unassisted" by government, you are not being honest with yourself.

I've worked my whole life too, and I'm proud of it, but I also understand that those SBA loans helped a bit too. Not to mention all of the other people who are not government that helped get me where I am. Nobody can make it alone. A functioning government is a good thing for all of us. We can't do without it so we should stop trying to kill it.

smartliberal1,

Just move out of the South and move to the Midwest! Try Minnesota or Wisconsin. I live in the alter! However, we have too many deer hunters with guns here too!. Not in my neighborhood however!

clwyd................you obviously hate guns and think they are the problem. Silly notion but none the less YOUR opinion. Great, no problem, don't buy a gun. BUT, stay the @!$%# out of my business and MY right to own them. You anti gun loons blame an inanimate object and ignore the real problems while thinking you are doing something by screaming for more gun bans. Look at the liberal run cesspools like Detroit and Chicago with their gun laws. Highest murder rate in the nation and the worst crime. Stupid is as stupid does they say.

SmBusOwner,

Wrong, there are less than 200 deaths a year due to accidental gun discharges. Guns are used in self defense tens of thousands of times each year. They are not always fired but they are used to thwart crimes.

The self defense issue is secondary, because the primary purpose of the right to keep and bear arms is to repel invaders and remain free from a government that could potentially become destructive of it's own people. The only reason we haven't been invaded since 1812 is because of the widespread ownership of guns. That is historical fact. We would have been invaded in WWII, if not for our gun ownership. We, the American citizens, even went so far as to donate thousands of guns and more than a million rounds of ammo to Brits who had no means to defend themselves from a potential German invasion.

If you think our government could not become tyrannical is a ridiculous stance. No government will be on this earth for eternity. Every government will eventually fall from without or within. That is inevitable. The 2nd Ammendment gives the People the right to form a militia in order to defend themselves.

USA,

You can't argue that if government took ALL the guns away there would be virtually no gun violence. No guns, no gun violence. It's true on the face of it.

The issue is that nobody is going to do that. It's in our Constitution, and there are good reasons to have guns---hunting, protection, sport, whatever. Guns aren't going anywhere.

You don't have to panic about Obama or anyone else "taking your guns" away.

Who's the stupid one? The one who's making the Pollyannish, but true, claim about gun removal from society? or you, who is worried about actual gun removal, which will never happen?

clwyd:

You sound like a guvment crumb dispenser

Ron,

I call historical lunacy!

Self defense "tens of thousands" of times each year? Source please!

We would have been invaded in WWII, if not for our gun ownership.

The ONLY reason we were not invaded is because of personal gun ownership? The Atlantic and Pacific Oceans had nothing to do with that? I'd love to hear which academic historian has claimed that?

Next you're going to tell me Red Dawn was a historical movie.

My only question is why do you think our government is destined to become tyrannical, but for personal gun ownership? You don't think the US Army would overrun us if they were so inclined? Is France or Britain tyrannical over its citizenry? There are plenty of countries that do not have a gun ownership right that are not tyrannical (most of them?). Your argument doesn't make sense.

Our government will never have a reason to take our guns away to subjugate us. There is no reason for them to do it, and even if they did, you would never win anyway, with your guns or not.

You're dreaming if you think the 2nd Amendment is the thing keeping us from tyranny. It's the political system that's preventing that, and has proudly for nearly 150 years since the end of the Civil War. We almost lost it then, and it wasn't that the militias that saved the nation, it was Abraham Lincoln and the Union Army.

clwyd, I was responding to carryingconcealed who asked for places in the U.S. with a high Black or Latino population with no crime. Even though I am not Black or Latino, I found his comment to be extremely stupid and absurd. That's why I mentioned El Paso, Texas. When I was a little boy we used to go to sleep at night with the doors open too, so f-ing what? Times have changed. I currently reside in the mountains of Ruidoso NM outside of El Paso. I do own several guns but that does not make me a nut. I tell you what though, you mess with me or my family and i will turn your head into a canoe.

The great thing about this country is that you can live where ever you damn please. How old are you that you act like a spoiled brat. " I live in a better place than you do, Nananana googoo." And you have the gull to call other people nuts.

I know the economy is bad, but people feel tempted to steal when they don't feel like they have enough to get what they want regardless of their income (see Madoff). And even if someone loses their job, it doesn't mean that they will feel it's okay to kill someone.

The rise in murders has more to do with the lack of law enforcement. Police services were gutted out. Now the crime lords have moved in and are bringing their violence with them.

Chuckie,

I do own several guns but that does not make me a nut.

I tell you what though, you mess with me or my family and i will turn your head into a canoe.

Chuck's not a nut though, no.

BTW, most of the country is perfectly safe, with no need for the threat of machine gun massacre to make it that way.

It's not fear that keeps it that way, it's trust that your neighbor is on your side, not about to stick a gun in your side.

What holds this nation together is trust that we are a country. Without that, we're Syria. Remember that, if you remember nothing else.

Lack of jobs is certainly one of the issues and you can thank the auto unions for that. To whomever made the statement that the German car companies are financilly successful, make a great product and are unionized, I would remind them that in North America, Mercedes production is in Alabama and BMW is in South Carolina specifically because those are non union states that offered terrific tax packages for economic development purposes. In fact, the union presence in Detroit has led to more production moving to the south (TN, AL, SC) that to overseas.

pgulrich

Companies, whether German or American, moving to places with "terrific tax packages" is economic for them. Same thing for American companies moving production to Mexico or China. It's about economic competition--companies will go where the best deal is. They couldn't care less about employees (clearly) Now, if South Carolina poaches a factory with a tax deal, that's not "because" of those terrible unions in Michigan, and the fact that Michigan can't do the same tax deal, it's taking advantage of it. It's South Carolina cheating. Don't think for a moment the same thing won't happen there somewhere down the road. It's not about the unions at all, except the fact that the only way out of paying locally reasonable wages is to pull up stakes and try somewhere else.

This is for clwyd...you are absolutely correct. You do NOT read about honest citizens employing firearms for legitimate defense of their homes, their families, or themselves. You DO only read about criminals and the mentally unbalanced using guns to take the lives of the innocent. Please, don't be a fool. You are not reading about it because the former never occurs, you're not reading about it because the media chooses to only publish and broadcast stories about the LATER. Just this past week, a twelve year old girl was home alone when an intruder broke in to the home and attempted to attack her. She managed to retrieve a gun and kill the man. This story received less media coverage than the International Card House Building Championship. You don't read about these cases because your news intake consists of what your chosen media outlets CHOOSE to show you. What gets more headlines? Sells more papers? Draws more viewers? Encourages more link clicks? A story about a man using a shotgun to stop an intruder or a lunatic storming a mall? The media is yanking us in the directions THEY wish, and in my opinion they are also helping perpetuate this cycle of killing. Years ago before the advent of instant media news trickled to us. Now it is splashed before us as it's happening. Now, sitting somewhere in a dark room, an unbalanced person is reading about the most recent killing in Aurora, CO. or a recap of the horrific events in Newtown, CN., and they are seeing the names of these animals plastered everywhere. Perhaps this person has been contemplating taking his or her own life of late. They are buried in the same media we are, and they start to think...If I do that I will be remembered! This person feigns wellness, buys a gun, and goes to a supermarket and opens fire, killing eight, wounding eleven, then putting the gun in his mouth and pulling the trigger as he hears the sirens approach. Suddenly we all know his name and, as he hoped, he died as some twisted version of a celebrity.

...a week later a diagnosed bi-polar/schizophrenic is watching the news, surfing the internet, reading stories from every angle, about the disturbed young man who took eight people with him. He has lost hope, lost faith in life. In the top of his closet are the two pistols his father had left behind when he died. He rarely takes his meds, so the few friends he had have distanced themselves. He walks to Walmart and, with only a brief glimpse at his drivers license, a bored employee sells him a hundred rounds of ammunition. The next morning he wakes with his mind at ease for the first time since his disease surfaced. He walks through the front door of the library three blocks from his house with a smile. Five die, three are wounded.

Five days later a man is watching the news and surfing the internet. Pictures of police cars in front of a library cordoned off with Police Line tape. His life has turned bad in the past six months. He'd lost his job. With a sudden surplus of time he found himself at home one day when the phone rang. He lifted the receiver to hear his wife whispering to one of his former co-workers about how hard it had become to sneak out and meet him with her "...useless husband" hanging around so much now. He confronted her, and she'd taken his children and left. He glanced out the front window and saw his neighbor and his family leaving the house when inspiration struck. His neighbor was a police officer and competition shooter and, having visited the house before, he knew the man was fairly lax in his storage. At dusk the desperate man jogged across the street and around the back of the house. High hedges hid his swift kick to the basement door. In the master bedroom a flimsy hasp and paddle lock were all that kept the guns secure. Plenty to deter small children. A ten second chore for a desperate man. The door swung open and he quickly selected a semi-automatic FN-FAL assault rifle. His neighbor was even accommodating enough to have several loaded magazines on the top shelf. A fifteen minute drive took him to the home of the old co-worker and, behold, there was her car as well. Ninety seconds after entering the house the adulterous man, his estranged wife, and both his sons were dead. Police were there in minutes and, unaware of how well armed the intruder was, approached the house. Three officers are gunned down before the fourth can shoot him down. Seven dead.

The next morning an elderly man, known by all his neighbors to be a "mean old man", is watching the news. His angry demeanor is not just attitude, he suffers from the early, undiagnosed stages of dementia. At a recent gun show he'd bought two rifles. Twin SKS 7.62mm rifles. As he sat with his morning coffee he felt his temper flare. Out the window he witnesses, yet again, his neighbors wife letting their Husky defecate on his lawn. He looks back at the TV, police cruisers, coroners truck, police tape, and in his mind he thinks of the dead shooter and mutters, "...good for him!".

THIS is the cycle media is creating. It's no longer ENOUGH to take their own life. They want to be REMEMBERED. They believe in the twisted notion that they'll be "HEROES".

IF NOT FOR THE MEDIA SENSATIONALISM OF THESE EVENTS THE VAST MAJORITY OF THESE PEOPLE WOULD BE FOUND IN THEIR GARAGES WITH A HOSE FROM THE TAIL PIPE RUNNING IN TO THEIR CAR WINDOW!

And if you want to lay blame exclusively on the inanimate object called "gun" you are censoring your OWN news intake more than the media outlets are. Several months ago a young man went on a rampage with a bow and arrow. Recently in China there has been a rash of attacks in which men, armed with knives ran in to schools and killed many children and staff. About a year ago in Japan there were a number of the exact same kind of attack. Some years ago a firefighter I know was called to a daycare where a man, recently dumped by his girlfriend, had been driving by. The sound of the children laughing and being happy infuriated him so much he aimed his car at the playground and hit the gas. Two children died, many injured. Certainly guns can kill, but so can fourteen objects I am looking at right now just sitting in my office. The sad truth is that when the human animal makes up its mind to kill...it WILL kill.

At the risk of continuing the be long winded, that many people have, "...lost respect for life...", is only half the problem. Back in the early 70s the country saw a movement I refer to as "The New Age of Discipline". It became politically correct to try and be friends with their children instead of oh, I don't know, parents. This movement has since been altered so much that the word "discipline" should be removed from the term. It has become more important for parents to allow these kids to be free to express themselves and explore. The result is children who do as they please and never learn a think about consequences, do not learn the importance of a work ethic having had everything handed to them, and imbibe freely in drugs and alcohol and sex. The first generation of this social experiment has now reached young adulthood. I've tried hiring a number of these young people. Their idea of hard work is the effort to use the time clock. They want a pay check but whine as soon as I tell them they have to do something to earn it. Thrust in to the adult world unprepared and having never learned that bad actions are not tolerated in the real world they feel they are well within their rights to acquire whatever they choose by taking it, with no thought to who they hurt or how they get it. When the world tries to teach them otherwise these kids get nasty and belligerent. As they grow older they don't learn usually...they start getting nasty about it. When some of these young adults develop mental health this "New Age of Discipline" deprives them of any of the coping mechanisms or common sense to seek treatment. And not they are having children...

There are a LOT of factors. I am a firearm enthusiast and I can easily agree big changes need to be made to the regulations regarding gun purchases. Gun show loop holes. Guns as bequests in wills. Access to firearms for those unfortunate enough to suffer from mental illnesses.

But it's not the only change that needs to be made.

Sorry for the long winded post.

You are right! It never occurs so there is no reason to have it in the media when it doesn't exist.

1. Today, a son kills mother in N. Y. over the TV show they were watching.

2. Today, 4 dead in Aurora, Colorado!

These occur!

What will the list consist of tomorrow? 36 dead on a college campus? 27 in a grade school!

Guns need to be banned for all except the military and cops!

SmBusiness, in fact he is correct. Japan DID invade American soil in WWII. They had forces take two islands in the Allusion chain. It was, in fact, taken back by groups of indigenous Alaskans using their own firearms drafted in to service by the U.S. Army as scout patrols. Without these armed citizens, or militia, even the army admitted that die to the conditions and geography of the islands their troops could not have done it. In fact, it's well known that many of those regular army soldiers would have perished if not for the hunting and survival skills of those courageous natives.

Also if YOU take the time to research, and the information IS out there, it IS true that tens out thousands of people employ guns each year to stop and deter crime. I have done so four times in my life, twice just in the last twelve months.

CLWYD, and I'm guessing you're one of those who believes the holocaust didn't happen, we never really landed on the moon, the government is hiding space aliens, and Pam Andersons boobs are real. You're a goddamn fool. Go to the tampon discussion like I advised you elsewhere, it's for pu**ys like you. Guns will never be fully banned, and if any legislation IS passed people like me will be grandfathered. Good thing I, unlike you, am an intellegent, rational law abiding gun owner. Then all you'll have to worry about is the criminals who will ALWAYS be able to get guns. Hey...you're rose colored glasses are slipping...God forbid you face reality!

Here, chew on these clwyd. Bare in mind that even I admit no statistic is perfect, they will vary depending on where the research was carried out and by whom. But ALL of these reports, even the Department of Justice report, will show you that each year guns are employed in self defense. Hopefully these post as links, but if you employ that IQ of eleven, clwyd, you can cut and paste. I'm betting, however, that you WON'T, because all of them prove you as wrong as you ALWAYS are.

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/stats.html

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/30/opinion/frum-guns-safer/index.html

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/ascii/hvfsdaft.txt

The REST of you, who I see from your manner of discussion are intelligent people capable of true debate, please read for yourselves. This is from about a minute of research. There is MUCH more information available.

MR,

Japanese landing on an Aleutian island? That's a stretch. Without those hunters, the Japanese surely would have gained a foothold and eventually occupied the entirety of North America.

Two times in a year?...OK George Zimmerman, looking for a crime that may not even exist. Who encounters two crimes in a year beside a cop or someone looking for trouble?

Oh, again on your "...never happens...", head in the sand attitude. I was a little off on the time, but...

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/10/23/12-year-old-girl-shoots-home-intruder/

I can do this all day.

My wife and I own apartment complexes just outside Atlanta. Running across criminal activity that requires intervention twice in a year is a quiet year. Try it. You'll be applying for a concealed carry permit within a month.

As for the Japanese invasion of Alaska, are you saying it isn't true? Here's a free history lesson, but in your defense the vast majority of Americans don't know anything about it, and I'm sure NO ONE under the age of around 30. AS for your cynicism, the Japanese plan was not to take over mainland America. Think, man! WHY did Japan feel pressured in to attacking America at Pearl Harbor in the first place? Could it be because we had blockaded them and deprived them of natural resources? And what did Alaska have in abundance even in 1941 that they've found far MORE of now. As for invasion, yeah, and Hitler was convinced the Allies couldn't pull off Normandy either.

http://www.history.com/topics/battle-of-the-aleutian-islands

Pity, the tone of your last statement tells me I was wrong in assuming you'd be a good person to have a discussion of opposing views with. And by the way, as a gun enthusiast, I have absolutely no problem making my opinion of the Zimmerman case public record. The man is guilty as all hell, Stand Your Ground in NO WAY is an acceptable defense for what he did, he is a racist guilty of second degree murder, and I am torn between wanting him to rot in jail or getting shanked in the first week.

*SIDE NOTE REGARDING COMMENT #1.97* I Said the press doesn't WANT you reading these stories. The FACT that this occurred in October and we're just learning about it in the national media now seems to say, oh, that I'm right.

Dear Chuckster: I find you extremely absurd and stupid as well. You take one rare exception (El Paso which, by the way, is not 95% hispanic but thanks for lying to try and make your point), and you tout that as the norm? Are you out of your mind? Okay, well I accept your challenge so let's go ahead and play this game:

Name five places in the United States consisting of either a majority of blacks or hispanics that would be safe for white people to walk around in at 2:00 AM in the morning. And what I'll do is name ten places for every one of yours that is dominated by whites but is safe for anyone to walk around in at 2:00 AM.

C'mon smart-guy, let's see who can validate their point, and then let's see who just looks like a stupid, naive liberal who chooses to ignore the reality of the world they exist in.

M.R. :

While I agree with your sentiment I have to correct you about the Aleutian conflict. My father was part of the American Army forces that re-took Kiska and Attu. He was at Dutch Harbor when it was simultaneously attacked during the Battle of Midway. While there may have been indigenous Alaskans involved in various engagements it was American volunteers like him who engaged the Japanese early in the war, often using inferior weapons and hampered with inadequate supplies. They endured brutal conditions, withstood Japanese strafing and bombing missions and eventually repatriated the only American soil occupied during the war. Thankfully he and all but one of his squad survived the war.

An avid hunter and patriot he taught me how to use and respect firearms. He also ingrained in me the importance of affirming and protecting the second amendment. I was lucky to have such a wise father. I would suggest that clywd was not so fortunate.

CLWYD said: "I don't read anywhere in the news about people protecting their families and neighbors all I read is about the killing of family members and neighbors with guns!"

Well maybe you should pull your little confused, naive head out of your arse, go to the NRA's website, and subscribe to their Armed Citizen newsletter where every month you can read about the numerous citizens around this country who have protected their families and their homes with privately-owned firearms.

I blame Honey Boo Boo.

Hello folks, they are just building a case to take your guns.

According to FBI.gov statistics not those from a lobbying group who advocate policy.

Since 1992 Violent crime is down 50% the Murder rate is down 54%.

But of course they are going to cherry pick statistics.

Why isn’t the Media talking about it?

Why? Because the deaths foster their agenda–gun control in the US.

When I hear people talk about “gun violence,” I wonder what has happened to language. A gun is an inanimate object. An inanimate object cannot cause violence. Humans cause violence. The relevant question is: why do humans cause violence? This obvious question seldom gets asked. Instead, inanimate objects are blamed for the actions of humans.

M.R. Chase: I agree with most of your posts. However, when it comes to Zimmerman you are dead wrong and here's why:

1. Just because the dispatcher told him he shouldn't get out of his vehicle, he broke no law by doing so.

2. Zimmerman had every right to follow the black man in the hoodie, especially given the recent crime in the neighborhood.

3. Martin had every right to confront the white man following him. However, since there is no indication that Zimmerman was following Martin with his gun drawn, there was no provocation for Martin to physically attack him like he did.

4. Because Florida has a Stand Your Ground law, and because there's every reason to believe that Martin physically attacked Zimmerman rather than just verbally confronting him like a more civilized person might have done, Zimmerman was within his legal right to introduce deadly force when Martin began beating him, no one answered his cries for help and Martin gave no indication of stopping anytime soon.

Given all of this the charges against Zimmerman should be summarily dismissed, and everyone should just chalk it up to another black man making an unfortunate decision to use violence to resolve a situation that didn't warrant it.

SmallbusinessownerinNY -

You clearly hear what you want to....The gangs need to be eliminated. The national guard needs to be brought in. They need to institute a curfew. They need to tear down all those burned out buildings from the riots. It's going to be a war to restore safety there. The good people are going to have to get guns themselves and fight the thugs themselves because there are not enough police. When the police catch a thug, the courts need to make the penalty hurt and long prison sentences. They'll have to take that city back block by block. And when a gangbanger gets shot, they need to celebrate rather than feel pity on them.

SmallbusinessOwner....You sir want to hear racism. You think because I used the word "savages" that I meant black people. That's your own racism talking, brother. You think black people are savages....not me.

No one is going to build businesses and invest in an area where your customers or workers might get killed daily. Peace needs to be restored and it is going to take some difficult decisions by those in charge to get it there.....The people won't change themselves until they feel like someone is in control. Society is not tough enough on crime these days...They feel bad when a criminal gets killed. I don't...good riddence.

Until the good guys start killing the criminals instead of the other way around, it will never get any better in Detroit.

Carrying, I can not agree. If Zimmerman was not looking for a confrontation and intended only to follow Martin to observe, why take the gun in direct violation of neighborhood watch policy? If only observing why even get out of the car? Martin was walking along the street, not ducking behind houses and bushes, so would have remained in sight from his drivers seat. As for Martins reaction, if you or I suddenly found ourselves being followed by a stranger, what would we do? I would take the offensive. Who goaded whom? We can never know because we can never ask Martin. We have Zimmermans claim that Martin turned in him or that he called out for help. If Martin turned back toward him and George felt threatened why wait to employ the gun? I believe Zimmerman thought he had the upper hand and only resorted to the sidearm when Martin defended himself. We have only Zimmermans word Martin struck first. No, Zimmerman broke no law by following Martin, but with the act of pursuit he tossed SYG out the window. Standing his ground would have involved either him staying in his truck and being approached by the young man or him standing on his own property and being approached by Martin. The whole incident would never have happened if he had stayed in his home and waited on the police who were already on the way. Oh, you may want to try to avoid using statistics compiled by the NRA in future comments. Too many anti-gun and even neutral parties (if they exist) will put no stock in anything the NRA says as they are slammed in the media for being biased on the issue. LOL, imagine that, the NRA being biased about the reason for their very existence! LOL. I try and find sources people can't scream "FOUL" over. The column IS a good one though.

Timothy, the natives played a larger role than even most of those who even know it happened understand. As you read replies to my information above your average American doesn't even know Japan gained a foothold in Alaska. The Cutthroats, as they came to be known, pulled off raids, engaged the Japanese, and used their survival skills to help our soldiers, sent unprepared for the climate and apparent resupply problems, survive the elements and provided them with food.

As a Former Marine, I salute your father!

SmBusOwner,

About three-fourths of the victims who used firearms for
self-defense did so during a crime of violence, 1987-92

Average annual number of victimizations
in which victims used firearms to defend
themselves or their property
________________________________________
Attacked Threatened
Total offender offender
________________________________________
All crimes 82,500 30,600 51,900
Total violent crime 62,200 25,500 36,700

With injury 12,100 7,300 4,900
Without injury 50,000 18,200 31,800

Theft, burglary,
motor vehicle theft 20,300 5,100 15,200

Note: Detail may not add to total because of rounding. Includes
victimizations in which offenders were unarmed. Excludes
homicides.

*In most cases victims who used firearms to defend themselves or
their property were confronted by offenders who were either unarmed
or armed with weapons other than firearms. On average between 1987
and 1992, about 35% (or 22,000 per year) of the violent crime
victims defending themselves with a firearm faced an offender who
also had a firearm. (Because the NCVS collects victimization data
on police officers, its estimates of the use of firearms for
self-defense are likely to include police use of firearms.
Questionnaire revisions introduced in January 1993 will permit
separate consideration of police and civilian firearm cases.)

Taken from this link http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/ascii/hvfsdaft.txt as provided by M.R.Chase.

The standing military of the U.S. could be outnumbered more than 40 to 1 by a civilian militia, should the people form a militia in response to government abuses. A civilian militia would stand more than a chance against the U.S. military, if the government employed troops against civilians. A civilian militia would stand little chance, however, if we were effectively disarmed and left with nothing more than revolvers, single shot rifles and shotguns.

You seem to think that it is an impossibility for people to usurp power or carry out a coup in our government. It is not impossible. It happens all around the world even today. The surest way for such action to succeed is to disarm the general population.

Clwyd,

Here are a couple of incidents in the last couple of days showing guns used in self defense.

3 January 2013 http://www.cantonrep.com/news/x1896978485/Meat-market-robbery-ends-in-gun-battle

4 January 2013 http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/article/Casper-police-say-armed-hotel-clerk-foiled-robbery-4168665.php

You are an idiot to believe that if the government bans guns that criminals won't still have and use them. Guns would be smuggled into the country the same way drugs and illegal aliens are smuggled in.

The gun ban in the U.K. has not resulted in a drop in gun crime. From 1998/1999 to 2009, gun crime was up 89% in England and Wales. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html The number of people injured or killed by gun violence was up 104% in the same time frame. Gun bans do not stop criminals and bans do not make law abiding citizens safer.

from #1.39

5,140 African American babies were aborted in Detroit area in 2010 alone.

I'm guessing you are supporting the abortions since it in all likelihood prevented 5140 more welfare recipients. I also respect their decision to not bring more mouths into the world when they knew they couldn't afford to support them.

Ahhhh..... welcome to the future of America. This is the land of the people who vote for democrats. Oh, and for all of you socialists who also think that banning guns is the answer, how is all that banning drugs working out? Of course, we all know how well banning alcohol worked out too.

Just wondering though, how bad does it have to get before dems realize their policies don't work? I suppose the sad fact is... never. Even after socialism brought about the downfall of the Soviet Union, there are still those who think it's a great idea. But, I suppose as long as you are able to work your way to the bottom of a vodka bottle, anything looks good.

As I thought. CLWYD has not posted. The zealots on BOTH sides can't stand to see facts they don't like. Those of us NOT afraid of facts must make our voices heard! We must be certain that we help shape the changes that must come, that will come. Reasonable changes can help keep guns out of the wrong hands with only minimal inconvenience to those of us who obey the laws governing ownership of our guns. I would gladly tolerate new laws that ascertain a persons mental health status before a gun purchase if it saved even one life. I spent fourteen years saving lives. I'd be happy to do so again.

Witchrunner, a fact you forgot to mention...not only do we outnumber those in uniform, many of us have military service in our backrounds as well. I, personally, don't see an uprising against The Man occurring. My vision of the collapse of America is that the economy will suffer critical failure, trade will break down, the dollar will become more worthless than the paper it's printed on, and the states will become individual countries. Life, for most, will revert to something resembling the day to day existence of the early 20th century, only with technology, because technology will just not cease to exist. That, of course, opens those individual state/countries to invasion from foreign countries. THEN those guns would be useful. Regardless though, even as an intact nation I support my country mistakes and all. Were it threatened I would take up my gun to DEFEND my country.

Thank you for checking the links. Our best defense is the knowledge that's already out there. I'm glad there are others out there smart of enough to know it.

M.R. Chase:

1. I didn't post or reference any statistics from the NRA. I simply recommended that CLWYD subscribe to the Armed Citizen newsletter. It contains articles about U.S. citizens who have defended themselves, their families and their businesses from criminals, and each one contains a link to the original article, none of which were written by the NRA.

2. Regarding George Zimmerman, you're still wrong but because you want to be right on this so badly, you're ignoring the critical part of Florida's Stand Your Ground law, which states that a person has the right to use deadly force if they feel their life is in danger, EVEN if they instigated the initial incident. Read below:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—

The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

Based on this alone, and the physical evidence released to the public, all charges should be dropped immediately.

I know, Carrying, just wanted to give you a heads up. If you are attempting to debate with someone who'd pro-gun control using NRA statistics is a futile effort. Most people link the Armed Citizen column with the NRA magazines. And I'm not saying I HAVE TO BE RIGHT, simply that I interpret the law in a way that makes him guilty. You raise good points, but these are my own personal feelings. No offense meant.

Good enough, and no offense was taken. :-)

"In Washington, D.C., there were 88 homicides in 2012, the lowest total since 1961. With a population of 617,966, that puts the rate at one per 7,023 people."

Washington D.C. now has a right to defend themselves. That may be why the rate there is lower. Cowards pick on those that can least defend themselves.

Seriously? Think skinned, are you? That same shirt can be found in just about any major city. Its tounge and cheek humor.

You REALLY need to get a life...

I agree IXLR8 .... The "attitude will change when we as a nation coalesce around the idea that all life is sacred:

"There are, as the chief said, he can have an additional thousand cops, but there are things that are happening in homes and families in the communities and the neighborhoods that whether a cop was there or not is not going to stop the crime.”

This quote parrots what I've been "preaching" all over the Vine: Teaching respect, Demonstrating respect, Reinforcing respect. Degradation of morals.... "moral relativism".... I have a Christian background... I taught my kids the same. They (now adults with there own kids) don't necessarily follow my devotion BUT they follow the demonstrate some of the principles (golden rule.. etc.).

Now I do believe that Christianity is the answer BUT even if it not (any) Religion, we should get back to teaching that life of/to others is just as important as your own life. I feel that we are demonstrating (whether intentionally or unintentionally) that life is relative: It is just a fetus, not a child... We are like any other animal.. not below or above.... Hurting a Dog is a bigger crime than hurting a person etc.

Fatherlessness is a trend, single parenting is "faddish", prisons are businesses and full. Smoking Pot... ok... a little alcohol.. ok.. It is ok to be dishonest in some circumstances because it is freedom of speech. (The man who lied about military awards to get a job... Court ruled that that was freedom of speech.) I told my kids: "Do as I say... AND as I do." Not: Do as I say and not as I do." Big difference when you all know that kids tend to "copy" what they see. We don't want to teach "morality" because we don't want to be "intolerant" "It's up to the individual." we say.. till that Child decides that taking a life is NOT immoral...

I'm not saying movies or video games are to blame... but as some of you retort: "My kids never seen me kill anyone." I'll ask you this.. do you counter the culture and influence that your children are exposed to? Do you visit them in school.. or do you wait till there is a problem... do you go through the child's phone, Facebook, room or is their "privacy" so secure.. good or bad.. you wouldn't know. I'm not accusing anyone here on the vine as a "bad parent" but I'm making the point... what kind of example are you to others... or does your "example" stop at the mirror. God Help us.

Col 3:8-15 KJV But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. (9) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; (10) And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: (11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. (12) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; (13) Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. (14) And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. (15) And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

Sadden, sad for you as you must live in a gopher hole in the sticks?? I fly all over for business and not one other city I go to is proud of their murder reputation trying to make money of it. Try again.

See if mommy will give you the car keys tonight, LOL.

Flame, read the first half of your bible. That was how god helped people. Detroit sounds like a normal biblical place really.

I understand your comment Boredo.... But we are supposed to learn from the Old (testament) but live in and by the New....".. seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; (10) And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him.." For this reason we are called "Christian" like Christ.

But I do understand what you mean... A regular Sodom and Gomorrah.. But I hope that the city is able to turn around.. Save the children... you'll save the city.

I am in 100 percent agreement with Flame, and the officer's quote about what is going on in the families and homes in not just Detroit, but America. What we are (or not) teaching our kids about life and treating others. It was always based on the 10 commandments--do not kill, lie, steal, or commit adultery. Honor your parents. Many families do not even practice these things anymore, let alone teach them to their kids. The movies and music and games the kids are constantly exposed to don't honor these rules. So how can we be surprised at the awful, awful fruit we see coming out of this neglect??

I was raised to be not particularly religious. But somehow I do follow most of the "ten commandments" and i do't know why. Maybe its becasue it is part of my moral fiber to do what is right and live by the golden rule. Such a life does not come without cost. I have been walked over, insulted, spit on, and made a failure by my own courtesy.

You can get so much by stealing, cheating, hurting others, and lying, it seems.

Bob.. How true... that is the crux... It takes 60 sec to break into to most cars... A gps, cd/dvd player and disk will get you an easy 50 bucks... (don't ask how I know). It takes a whole day of work to "earn" that.. It is and always will be "harder" to live honestly than to "take from the weak." When my Children played video games they would often go on the internet and find "cheat" codes or shortcuts so I would tell them "There are no cheat codes in life." I encouraged them to complete the game without them first. I don't know if this made a real difference but All the Children grew to realize that there is no easy buck.

I do believe in spanking children... (only to a certain age) I lectured them and "stuck my nose in their business. I was called insensitive, old fashion and by my peers I was a "over bearing" parent.... I did 'drag' them to church but was careful to "practice what I preached", I encouraged when they took on "impossible" projects and admonish with as much love as I could muster.. BUT I failed not to back up my wife and just tell it like it was even if it hurt. All the the children (4) said at one time "I hate you!!'... All of them as adults, with there own children, say "I love you, respect you and thank you."

And one final thing Bob... Jesus felt the same way as you..."Doing good and get crucified for it but he did good anyway."

Heb 12:2-3 KJV Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (3) For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

and yet later on:

Heb 12:9-14 KJV Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? (10) For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. (11) Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. (12) Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; (13) And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. (14) Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Morality is hard to "teach" without a guide.... I know how many feel about Christianity but... I do ask the question.. If NOT Christ then What "guide" are they using?.. If we are our own moral compass then the answer is "NONE" then that is their answer.. and that (I believe) is the problem.

"This town needs an enema!"

This article is leaning over backwards to be politically correct and so is the African-American Mayor. Almost all the homicides are drug dealing African Americans against young under age 25 African Americans. The number one reason: the drug trade. Turf wars are number one and there are many police officers scared to respond to a call deep in the hood when someone calls 911 and screams, "I hear a gun - OMG - he's on the street bleeding..." The paramedics don't want to go in there. Detroit finally got Obama to send in THE BORDER PATROL.

The BORDER PATROL spend all of their time chasing leads on how the coke, herione and everything else got in somewhere between the Mexican Border, the Canadian Border and Michigan - and they are exhausted. They are continually assailed for racial profiling. Every African American male in Detroit that lays eyes on them dreams of popping a cap in their #!@#! and have repeatedly tried.

The Canadians have used GPS to find anyway - any route around Detroit because they are scared #!@@## to drive their Mercedes while being white. Meanwhile every African American who drives a Mercedes is pulled over and drug sniffing dog is unleased into their vehicle.

The culture has so eroded that the upper middle class has figured out they can have all the marijuana and coke they want and avoid crack because it's whack. They have little peddlers they send down there to dodge bullets and make deliveries like Pizza Hut.

The inner city schools of Detroit are little more than day care centers and no one even hopes to get an education. They see the whole building as either a day care center building or a place to meet up and gang bang.

Personally, I think it is because people have despaired of God himself. Their rapped poets sing only of despair, catching a fed case, catching a bullet, banging a ho, or getting popped by a bro. No one is there to sing of any hope - only God can help these people. What else but divine intervention is going to get scores and scores of young people refocused on something other than either numbing themselves into addiction or exploiting their own brethren to drive a Mercedes for a couple of years - only to die in a hail of bullets themselves?

Mandie Grace Taylor - not to knock god, but if it can help these people as you state, when is this going to happen?

Leaning on god lets people live stupid, greedy, trashed lives. If you need an example, look at America - a so-called christian nation. Even at its inception we were already engaged in chemical warfare - with extermination of native people and enslavement of african people two of our first achievements! What shining achievements they were all done in the name of god and singing the 'song of manifest destiny' all the while.

When people take responsibility for themselves life will improve.

Hope-???? Where did the mayor say anything about religion? He spoke of families teaching their children respect for life and property---taking responsibility as you say. However, I think it is very easy to make the connection that our laws, having in the past been rooted in the values expressed by the 10 commandments (don't kill, steal, lie, cheat, commit adultery, do honor parents), are meant to promote a culture of life and respect. However, many, many people in our society "dis" these commandments, and do not teach them to their kids. No wonder we have problems with---killling, stealing, lying, cheating, adultery, hating and rebelling against parents. And much more besides. Pretty much of a no-brainer, if you ask me.---And it's not just a race thing. It's all over America in one form or another, and getting worse. .

Unions and drugs.

"Hopefully we can learn something from it"

Not with Democrats in control and blaming everyone and everything but themselves. They need to dig themselves out of the mess. "respect yourself".

Dan -

That's the liberal way. Just throw good money after bad and hope it helps and when things don't change, blame the republicans (or Bush, or conservatives, anybody but yourselves).

The MAJOR decline happened when the black community took over Detroit and the white community fled. Detroit was once a thriving city, with businesses making money. The criminal element came in with blacks (no such thing as "African-American"). With the "White Flight" of the 60's and 70's, Detroit's economic infrastructure left with them. The black population, dependant on social programs for income, did little to help Detroit. You have a black city council that cares more about looking good that having a strong city, the last mayor stole MILLIONS out of the coffers of Detroit (so they re-elected him), you have a Police Department that is ineffective due to cuts, and no major exports. The city is dead... and it's NOT coming back. Thank you to the citizens of Detroit for that...

Sadden American, what you said might well be true but I am very surprised your comment has not been deleted. Many parts of our major cities have the same problem but we cannot say why because it's "politically incorrect." And until we do, we'll never find a solution.

It isn't that it's "politically incorrect." It's that if you say it, everybody knows for a fact that you're a bigot.

That's the liberal way. Just throw good money after bad and hope it helps and when things don't change, blame the republicans (or Bush, or conservatives, anybody but yourselves).

Almost. While they do blame others for their failings, they double down on funding failed programs - "what we need is more money".

It's that if you say it, everybody knows for a fact that you're a bigot.

If you don't say it you're not a bigot? Is it really bigotry when it may be the truth - spoken or not? People didn't flee Detroit because the blacks moved in, they fled because of the crime. How is it bigotry that people want to live in a safe town?

Exactly the same story as the south side of Chicago, black on black crime fueled by drug related gang activity. Out of wedlock births, single parent (if any) homes, rampant drugs, failed education system unfixable thanks to teachers unions and lack of parent involvement, death of the auto industry thanks to the auto unions, white flight to the suburbs or out of state, survival of the most brutal on the streets. Mix them all together and this is what you get. Throwing money at it won't fix it because the problems is values and the goverment can't provide that.

Wonder what the murder rate was prior to the influx of blacks following the 60's. It seems that race is conveniently left out of the discussion, in order to be politically correct. There are places in white Appalacia, for example, that are poorer than many of our 'urban' centers, yet the murder rate can't even be compared to what it is in so many inner-city centers. It is a disgrace to every hard-working, law abiding black person, to have these low-life thugs running the neighbors targeted in the discussion!!

"If you don't say it you're not a bigot?"

No, but if you do say it, as you did, you remove all doubt.

+1

Couldn`t have said it better...

There was a time people migrated to where the jobs were, not they sit and collect government benefits and wait for the jobs to find them.

I agree, and if not farmland green spaces for trees, flowers, birds and wildlife. If an abandoned industrial site was dated to 1950 or prior, flatten it, and farm it. Let the neighborhoods compete with each other on who grows the biggest tomato, or pepper, or who has the best flowered landscape on previously condemned property. You can have your competitions for the enjoyment of life, not the taking of life.

My spouse and I acquired some abandoned "industrial grade" property for a garden area and urban wild bird scantuary, and have puttered around with it over the last 5 years or so. The neighbors we have found really enjoy it, strangers stop and comment on it, and we have birds from hummingbirds to hawks. By just working at just picking up the trash, we have found that the neighborhood is more conscientious about litter. Now personally we tend to plant shrubs and whatnot, which are bird friendly species, and some work, and some don't, but vegetable gardens, or flower gardens, or a combination will work. We've incorporated waste concrete which couldn't be removed, old utility poles, pieces of pipe... which unto themselves are industrial junk. We even have a large area which is an old coal cinder pile. The area probably last saw commercial/industrial use in the late 1970's.

So who are the neighbors? Asians, Blacks, Hispanics, Bosnians, Gays, elderly. Visitors include professionals taking lunch in their cars, outlying gardeners, walkers and joggers. Wildlife visitors include deer, fox, raccoon, opossum, as well as the resident groundhog Floyd, rabbits, squirrels, chipmunks. Some neighbors don't like the barred owl hooting at 3:00 AM sometimes, and flocks of crows in the fall crap on cars as they move through the city, but it isn't a shoot 'em up place. It's not the wilderness. There are motorcycles and loud boom boom music in the neighborhood and on main roads in warm weather. I think our city's homicide rate this past year was 12 for about 350,000.

So greening up old abandoned property isn't the solution for all ills, but lots of people really enjoy flowers and trees and birds, and seeing old Floyd the groundhog. Our spray paint vandalism once somewhat common has been replaced with vines the hummingbirds like. Have you ever tried to spray paint gang graffiti on woven wire fences? Take down the block walls, and put up something vines or flowers take to. Talk to the kids about the birds or the flowers. Give the neighbor a fresh tomato that they watched grow.

T.Neville... The tomatoes and other vegetables are in raised beds. Trees like Viburnum or Serviceberry for the birds are planted where they fit, as are the flower bulbs. Get yourself some old bricks, build yourself a design, fill it with dirt and plant something. If you are afraid of fresh tomatoes in Detroit, I think you missed the point of this news item.

not [now] they sit and collect government benefits and wait for the jobs to find them.

Not exactly. If they work they will lose those government checks. They want the government to do it for them and still collect those checks. Take for example the victims of Katrina. They are still waiting for the government to come and rebuild New Orleans for them. Other cities struck by natural disasters have already been rebuilt or are rebuilding.

Obama has sent in the Border Patrol - all that is left now is to send in the National Guard - enforce Curfew - and limit the freedoms of hundreds of thousands over the craziness of a few thousand. The drug lords in Detroit have made all law enforcement in Detroit look like FOOLS. Many a Canadian has asked, "is that the United States?" When shown a movie of Detroit and a lot of them believe it - there are Canadians claiming they hear gunfire in Detroit - they hear sirens and think the US is having a Luftwafte moment in our own civil war. It's embarrassing - and president after president has just hoped and prayed in the oval office that Detroit will save herself - and she just can't - she looks like the drug lord ridden towns along the Mexican Border -and all law enforcement there in Detroit have said, "the inmates run this asylum."

thinker -

While some will wait (primarily those on public 'assisstance'), most rebuilt and got on with their lives in the New Orleans area. I know this because I live and work here.

Mandie Grace Taylor, when was the last time you were anywhere near the drug lord ridden towns along the Mexican Border? Never? That's what I thought. Diarrhea of the mouth is a horrible disease, you might want to get it checked out by a professional.

Got out of Detroit with my life after being mugged twice in 1980 - in my white neighborhood!

What we witness in Detroit are feral pack animals that inhabit an 84% Black city of dwindling population. No racism here, where the mayor and police chief and city government are all Black. Regardless of what leaders (?) encourage, the inmates will run their asylum and kill their own. Sad-but-evidently true.

And there is suggestion that outside money will help this problem city. Really?

Tammy - While there are those who got out and started rebuilding, there are a great number that have just sat around and waited for the help. I have several friends that move around the country and try to help communities hit by devastation try to rebuild through charitable efforts. They weree not down there at the same time but without exception they said that the mentality of the people they were trying to help would rather live in a pig sty than get off their ass and help themselves. They left in frustration and went to other areas that wanted and appreciated their assistance.

Ban handguns.

Jeffersonian3,

You have your metaphors mixed up a bit. NYC has the strictest gun control law in the country. You are correct that is does target suspicious individuals with its "stop and frisk" policy.

The entire nation needs to emulate NYC gun control to keep guns from migrating from those concealed carry states to Chicago and Detroit.

Most of the homicides are due to handguns and likely gang related.

Those, like you, who argue for guns for protection are most likely never to be a victim of gun violence, assuming you are not a minority gang member. Rather, families with guns at home have an 18 times greater likelihood of a family suicide or family homicide than gun-free families. The risks to your families lives come from within your four walls, not from the outside.

Recent massacres may be an exception. The only way to stop those is to drastically reduce the number of guns and reverse the growing gun dependence/addiction. In Lanza's case, this was a typical "in-house" homicide-suicide, though regrettably it involved many other innocents.

D.C., Chicago, Detroit, Philadelphia, etc. all have the same gun laws and bans as NYC. The reason NYC has a lower homicide rate is that it at least has the guts to target criminals. It isn't just the "stop and frisk", it's also programs such as CompStat and Broken Windows...which target the areas where most of the crime is occurring and criminals are located.

You're right about one thing, most of the homicides are gang related as over 70% of homicide victims have criminal records. Overwhelmingly the crimes are being committed by repeat offenders against other repeat offenders, using guns that are already illegal for them to own because they are felons, are underage, existing gun laws, etc. So how in the world does it make sense to enact more gun control laws that target law-abiding citizens when we know that they aren't the ones committing the crimes???

Remove the criminals and you remove the crime...it's very simple.

Jeffersonian3,

We agree on quite a bit. I'll take our discussion a step further:

1. The majority of gun homicides have been gang related. The related fallacy is that a law-abiding citizen owning a gun will provide them protection. This is an unfounded notion.

2. The clear threat to law-abiding citizens and their families who have a family gun(s) is family murder or suicide which is 18 times greater than for families without a gun(s).

3. The average law-abiding citizen is being led to greater risk of harm with the errant belief that a gun at home will protect them from harm. Those who own guns need to study the gun homicide data for their locale carefully. Very likely in an effort to protect their family from outside harm that never comes, they expose their family to self-inflicted harm from murder by family members, suicide or accidental death by gun.

4. America has become awash in guns. Likely 90% aree not needed for protection for law-abiding citizens, but can increase harm to your family or others if stolen or sold. Once legal guns are finding their way to embattled inner cities.

5. The rising phenomena of massacre of innocents seems to be the extreme of our country awash in guns and the mistaken belief they serve a purpose of family protection. A more extreme inaccurate belief for some is guns serve as a way of coping with anger/rage. This is not surprising as we habituate to the presence of guns with nearly one registered for every man, woman and child. Guns, so commonly around us, no longer are viewed as an item whose sole purpose is to take a life, but as an everyday personal item, such as a smart phone (thank you concealed carry). To those on the "edge" it is becoming the item of choice for expressing rage/revenge.

Reversing the massacre trend is going to require guns out of daily life, and once again viewed as sport or killing weapons--not something every family needs or wants or can't leave home without.

Quite a challenge for the USA, but if most every other civilized country has accomplished this, so can we.

"The entire nation needs to emulate NYC gun control to keep guns from migrating from those concealed carry states to Chicago and Detroit."

Please tell us precisely how you are planning to motivate criminals to obey the laws you pass.

"Those, like you, who argue for guns for protection are most likely never to be a victim of gun violence, assuming you are not a minority gang member. Rather, families with guns at home have an 18 times greater likelihood of a family suicide or family homicide than gun-free families. The risks to your families lives come from within your four walls, not from the outside."

Precisely where are you quoting this nonsense from I wonder? The CDC? Handgun Control?

I`ll leave you with this;

"Senator Dianne Feinstein,

I will not register my weapons should this bill be passed, as I do not
believe it is the government's right to know what I own. Nor do I think it
prudent to tell you what I own so that it may be taken from me by a group of
people who enjoy armed protection yet decry me having the same a crime. You
ma'am have overstepped a line that is not your domain. I am a Marine Corps
Veteran of 8 years, and I will not have some woman who proclaims the evil of an
inanimate object, yet carries one, tell me I may not have one.

I am not your subject. I am the man who keeps you free. I am not your
servant. I am the person whom you serve. I am not your peasant. I am the flesh
and blood of America.
I am the man who fought for my country.

I am the man who learned. I am an American. You will not tell me that I must
register my semi-automatic AR-15 because of the actions of some evil
man.

I will not be disarmed to suit the fear that has been established by
the media and your misinformation campaign against the American
public.

We, the people, deserve better than you.

Respectfully Submitted,
Joshua
Boston
Cpl, United States Marine
Corps
2004-2012"

Eww Rahh...

BrianPatronie,

Here are just a few definitive reviews indicating the risk of death for those with guns in the house far outweighs any belief of protection from harm. I hope you review carefully. The like you save may be your own of someone you love.

http://www.upenn.edu/ldi/issuebrief8_8.pdf

http://www.minnpost.com/second-opinion/2012/12/health-risk-having-gun-home

http://www.news-medical.net/news/20100204/Guns-in-homes-can-increase-risk-of-death-and-firearm-related-violence.aspx

http://www.salon.com/2012/12/18/the_answer_is_not_more_guns/

Kamaaina, you are missing the boat with your argument that "the risk of death for those with guns in the house far outweighs any belief of protection from harm."

Gun ownership is a personal decision that is not affected by your statistics. If someone lives in a dangerous neighborhood or has been a crime victim then the protective benefit may be very real. Or if someone has lived for generations with responsible gun ownership then the risk in the house can be greatly reduced.

You believe in total gun control to reduce the availability of guns. You are correct that partial gun control provides steady access of guns transferred from legal to illegal areas. However, you don't say how to implement national gun control on a divide populace or even in the hypothetical that it could be implemented, how to prevent a thriving black market of imported guns. Demand will always create supply and Americans love and want guns more than other nations without a gun culture.

706,585 people...Detroit’s total of 411 homicides in 2012,... includes 386 criminal homicides and 25 “justifiable homicides”...

That makes it one murder for every 1719 people.

families with guns at home have an 18 times greater likelihood of a family suicide or family homicide than gun-free families.

By your numbers, that would mean that 390 of those murders were acrtually committed by families with guns in the homes rather than street criminals.

Britain is the violent crime capital of the Europe with very strict gun control laws, higher than the U.S. and South Africa.

I wonder why so many people are victims over there? Many people here are serious about self defense, If that is a deterrent then what you don't see is a result of it. Why is it these very rare shootings happen in gun free area's?

People with a gun are more likely to use it in a suicide, wow, pure genius remark there. It doesn't say a thing about the number of suicides increasing BECAUSE people have guns, people just use another form like drugs, or cars or...

Maybe people who use a gun in a suicide just know the end will be instant instead of long and drawn out.

History Addict! ~ When it comes to serious crime Britain doesnot even appear on the Richter Scale! ~ Just where the hell are you getting your skewed and distorted figures from?

It saddens me to see the city I was born and raised in come to this sad point. In my opinion there are several factors for Detroit's downfall. The complete lack of leadership within the now largely black community, the departure of most business, the failure of schools and parents to teach children the very basics of respect, dignity, and discipline. A much too much attitude of entitement - society owes you nothing but you do owe it to to yourselves to rise above the "easy money" of drugs, instant fame of playing some sport, or behind a gun. Unions (what a joke) whenever I see union (mostly auto) workers acting like a bunch of thugs I know why I left Detroit and Michigan at such a young age and have never looked back. I could not then nor now understand the "union mentality" of such a large population of this city and its suburbs as well. Most of my family are "blue collar" workers and I feel no sympathy for them or the situation they have created for themselves. Young people today have no values, no respect for elders, no respect for authority and certainly no respect for themselves. I know there is certainly much more to the problem and I ramble but all I know is I left Detroit at a very young age (17) and I am now nearing 70 and I still don't miss it

Mighty Mouth, 4.2 million crimes were reported in Great Britain in '10-'11. Of those 20% were violent crimes. Roughly 840,00. In 1997 there were 250,000. Say again?

stats are from homeoffice.gov.uk

Mikimi

You hid the nail on the head in so many ways that most people here just close their eyes to. We just want to talk about guns (which I hate by the way), but refuse to discuss the issues you mention as dangerous contributors to this problem. And because of our violent media, dysfunctional families and lack of respect for each other, this problem is spreading beyond Detroit. I think, personally, unless we face these things we going to see the continual decline of our whole country. Sad.

New York has a lower homicide rate because, the statistics are based on a homicide per hundred thousand people. Since NY has 8 or 9 million people, it is easy for them to appear to have a relatively low murder rate. What these erstwhile experts should state is: What are the total number of murders per city ? You would see a vastly different comparison.

Since NY has 8 or 9 million people, it is easy for them to appear to have a relatively low murder rate.

There are no appearances. There are more people living there with fewer of them killing one another.

What these erstwhile experts should state is: What are the total number of murders per city ?

For 2012:

New York: 414

Detroit: 411

There isn't much of an illusion here and I recommend you read up on basic statistics. There is a reason murders are expressed in rates per 100,000 people.

Detroit is doomed. Even the Muslim immigrants being funneled into Detroit don't stay. The people of Detroit have a choice; stay there, or pack a suitcase and leave. They choose to stay, so live with it and quit complaining.

Such a shame. Part of the problem is definitely that it has been a union centric city for so long their has been limited innovation that would help diversify the economy. Letting GM and Chrysler go through the normal bankruptcy court would have been a good start to getting the city on the right path.

San Diego and Pittsburgh both have a lot of union jobs but neither has this murder rate. In fact, where you have good jobs with good salaries, you usually don't have a lot of idle, Jerry Springer people causing trouble. I agree with Celtic, read the Paul Kersey book.

At least with a gun you can kill your own food, feeding you much longer than the lone chicken ever would.

You Mary, are a fool. Research the NRA. You've found the wrong boogieman.

Hey Mary, your another clueless liberal. The NRA DOES NOT want a gun in every hand. Nice try liar. The Democratic party...the party of hate, lies and distortion.

clueless,

Please enlighten me then. Why doesn't the NRA want a gun in every hand? They oppose any barrier to gun ownership at every turn regardless of age, criminal status, mental health status, or disability. Is what they propose the honor system? Such as, if you have a criminal record please refrain from acquiring a firearm. Because no such barrier is allowed for in the constitution. If you explain it to me I will understand, but I don't understand right now.

Unlike Detroit those cities have strong work ethics, low crime, strong families, high educational levels etc..etc.. I could also point out the obvious.

Well, as the article states, " Chief Logan said the criminal activity in the city comes from a small minority of the city's population." So it's obvious that he's referring to the white population. . .

Hell En, Check out Japans laws on gun ownership.You will be surprised at what you see. The only people to own guns are sportsmen. They are not allowed to have any ammunition in their homes. To enjoy their sport they must go to the Police to buy their ammo. When their day of pleasure is over they must return all unused shells and empty casings. Credit is given for unused shells. Check out their laws and you will find they work and people are happy with it.

Frederick,

The US is not Japan, you are comparing bananas to oranges. Americans WANT guns and would not "be happy" with Japanese gun restricions. Why do Americans want guns?

1. Second Amendment to defend against tyrannical government takeover (as occurred in 20th century Japan, Italy, Germany).

2. Sport shooting and Hunting

3. Protection.

Gun ownership is a very personal decision If someone lives in a dangerous neighborhood or has been a crime victim then the protective benefit of gun ownership may be very real.

The partial gun control in the USA does provide steady access of guns transferred from legal to illegal areas. However how to implement national gun control on a divided populace of 310 million with as many guns? In the hypothetical that complete, Japan-style gun control could be implemented, how do we prevent a thriving black market of imported guns? Demand will always create supply and Americans love and want guns more than Japan and other nations without a gun history and culture.

Demand will always create supply

That's not what I learned in Econ 101. Supply and Demand are separate but inter-related. Just because I may want a gun doesn't make one magically appear.

I want 100 naked dancing beauties and I'm still looking.

You must have slept through Econ 101. It doesn't matter if we implemented a total gun ban, if you were willing to pay a high enough price for a gun, somebody would be willing to supply you with one. Same with the 100 naked dancing beauties.

You need to know why Japan is the way it is Frederick. Because of their past atrocities they were stripped of any arms and the world saved by an armed society US!

They were the criminals that the law went after and imprisoned, not the law abiding giving up freedom so that the criminal could run over us.

You must have slept through Econ 101. It doesn't matter if we implemented a total gun ban, if you were willing to pay a high enough price for a gun, somebody would be willing to supply you with one.

Then only the rich would own them. And anybody who managed to steal one.

Lack of Education is the root of the problem.

Detroit is going to loose its legs to gangrene......

And putting about 100,000 violent felons in prison and keeping them there for life...which is hopefully just until their lethal injections.

Not enough, you have to have a culture that wants educational achievement, not shuns it. A culture that rejects gangsta rap, being "hard" thug life, etc.. One that respects law and order, family, hard work, virtue, honor. If you watch "Hardcore Pawn" one episode, you can summarize most of Detroit's problems in a 30 minute TV show

i be agreeging with you, i wish the white peoples would come back so our city can move forward again, cause killpatrick really kill the whole city,and the peoples just dont wants to work in detroit they all on wellfair

joe slav - You want the whites to return so you get a better return on your criminal activity? I understand. You can only get so much money from welfare and food stamp recipients and you are only employed for those few days of the month when those checks arrive. But look at it this way - 2 days of work and 28 days of resting for your next 2 days.

i wasnt even thinksing that way, but it dont be sounded like a bad idea lol

The biggest reason it was a thriving city in 1950 was that is was a majority White City, it used to be called the Paris of the West. The city is now 80% Black, the comparisons to Paris stopped right after the race riots in 1967, when Whites fled in mass.

Ya finally got there, Celtic ! Nothing seems to grow in the ashes of '67. Just ask Newark.

Oh yeah the riots. Forgot about that. I think I read about that in a history book: Decades of police brutality. Racism keeping black people from having good jobs. Freeways built right over black neighborhoods (that got razed in the process). The "Black Power Movement". Yeah, that place was a tinderbox waiting for a spark...

You are absolutely right, of course. The tension that burst in '67 had been building since at least 1943. The "mysterious" death of the umpteenth black man in police custody was the last straw, not some perverse decision to set 2500 buildings on fire and damn the whole city for eternity.

Agree.

Lack of diversification killed this city.

But think about it, a city dying is never really a sad thing, it's not like it's a living individual, it's a place. People that lived there have left and are surely living better lives elsewhere or why the move? Only those that are too lazy, dumb, or incapable of moving have stayed. The only ones I feel sorry for are the incapable. A city filled with lazy and dumb as it's primary population is naturally going to be violent.

I feel nothing for Detroit except that it serves as a perfect lesson in economics that anything built on one industry will NOT last....

There is a perfect example of this in the South as well: Birmingham Alabama. Birmingham used to be a thriving steel town. But steel was it's only trick. It has long since declined with that industry. But look at Atlanta Georgia thriving. It's thriving because it has many more than just one trick.

Birmingham is a veritable paradise compared to

Gary, Indiana, Camden, New Jersey or East St. Louis, Illinois.

Yeah Birmingham has bounced back at a decent rate over the past decade but the decline of the steel industry definitely hurt it severely. It wasn't necessarily a one trick pony when it came to economics but at least 80% of it was steel dependant.

Just the only town in the South that I knew that I could use as a comparison to what has happened in Detroit.

It used to be called the "Pittsburgh of the South"...

411 less lives as of Dec 31.

Bingo! we have a winner.

Here are some facts about Canada, and I'll throw some in for England and Australia as well...other countries that are often hailed as "gun ban victories". The fact is that gun bans do reduce gun crimes...but other crimes go up...including assaults and rapes. These stats are per capita crime rates and show that banning guns make societies more dangerous ESPECIALLY for women:

Facts about crime rates in England:

Total Crime Victims....3rd highest in the world and 25% higher than the United States.

Rape Victims...6th highest in the world and 125% higher than the United States.

Assault Victims...2nd highest in the world and 133% higher than the United States.

Facts about crime rates in Australia:

Total Crime Victims...THE highest in the world and 100% higher than the United States.

Rape Victims...5th highest in the world and 150% higher than the United States.

Assault Victims...4th highest in the world and 100% higher than the United States.

Facts about crime rates in Canada:

Total Crime Victims...7th highest in the world and 13% higher than the United States.

Rape Victims...8th highest in the world and 100% higher than the United States.

Assault Victims...5th highest in the world and 92% higher than the United States.

Jeffersonian3

So what are you saying man?!

That regardless of all our guns, we are still one of the best nations to live in as far as crime rate is concerned?

Blasphemy!

No, (s)he's trying to say that those countries that are "primary" WHITE have a worse record for crime...(S)He forgets that they all have a large quantity of NON WHITE immigrants and others from third world nations, who immigrate (or come illegally, sound familiar?) with their third world values...

Where did you get these stats from, Jeffersonian?

Angela - You need to get out a little more often - or do some research. Check on the percentages of whites versus minorities in thoswe countries. But the real thing that stumps me about your "white" majority comment is how do those whites get the minorities to do those crimes?

I posted that that what (s)he was ASSuming...nor did 'Jefferson' bother to post ONE cite.

As to the rest of my post, what are YOU referring to? Even our statics bear out my post. Most crime IS comitted by people of color, but especially violent crime. Frankly, I don't care what race, creed, color, or whatever else you deem, I just want them to STOP. It's not mine or anyone eles fault that they decide not to become educated, get a job or be responsible for themselves. That welfare, popping out babies for a check, joining a gang are not LIFESTYLES. I'm sick of paying for them. Lucky me though, since I live in California, I get to pay for the illegals too. Am I pissed off, you bet! I'm going to ask you, why aren't you too?...

www.fbi.gov/stats-services/crimestats

I've actually traveled, not as much as I want, but I've seen enough to know that a lot of major European cities are populated by people who were not born there, or are first generation. Jeez, I live in suburb of L.A., I'd never actually live in the city. It's disgusting. Guess you don't get out much yourself.

Angela - My apologies. I misunderstood your post. I agree. Their culture of irrepsonsible breeding practices because they know the government will continue to pay has only perpetuated the problem. They have absolutely no desire to be self sufficient. Because they may have had some very distant relative that was part of the slave trade these current generations feel slighted. Unless and until they decide to stand on their own two feet they will continue to be sub-standard citizens. And deservedly so. What incentive is there for me to work harder so they can live better because of some liberal politicians. Granted, there are people who need support but when there are fifth and sixth generations of families who have never held a job it isn't because of need. It is because of desire.

YES! I am also P!$$ED OFF.

As for travelling, I have only travelled to all 50 states and all of the Canadian provinces, lived in several foreign countries but have yet to get to Europe.

My daughter lives in Melbourne, Australia. All private ownership of guns was banned in Australia a few years ago. Not only were there no more guns sales to citizens but anyone who already owned a gun was legally required to turn it in or face stiff fines and/or jail time. The following year violent gun crime went up by 45% and has stayed higher ever since. The criminals still obtain weapons but now know the potential victims are unarmed.

this is what happens in blue states. strict gun laws always have the most murders,look it up for yourself. they have to go easy on the stereotypes cause they are the voters in the inner-city. they treat drug crimes so laxed it's not even funny.i would offer my services at a fair price and guarantee results in two years. i would lay out a plan that would frighten the most dangrous criminal. chain gangs, and drag-lines is what would be called. Chi-town would be brought back and the element would be crushed. only the libs would oppose such a plan. that is why the city is a mess.

Yes but at least all of their gun laws are keeping firearms out of the hands of dangerous people!

(oh.. wait....)

Whoa! You cannot just throw these actual facts out to liberals! It doesn't make them "feeeeeeel" good.

Bravo and well put!

For those under the illusion a gun in the home will protect them or their family, please review medical studies below. Having a gun in your home increases the chance of death for you or a loved one!

http://www.upenn.edu/ldi/issuebrief8_8.pdf

http://www.minnpost.com/second-opinion/2012/12/health-risk-having-gun-home

http://www.news-medical.net/news/20100204/Guns-in-homes-can-increase-risk-of-death-and-firearm-related-violence.aspx

http://www.salon.com/2012/12/18/the_answer_is_not_more_guns/

Kamaania,

I would much rather have my wife or child, ( God forbid ) accidently killed by something than to have them raped, murdered, etc. because I or my wife had no way to defend themselves from the scumbags that do that sort of thing. Unintentional firearm deaths do not even rank in the top 5 causes of deaths in the home. Here is a listing that was taken from eHow Home as of 2011, ( the last year of statistics ).

1. Falls. I guess we need to make it illegal to have anything in or around your home that may cause you to trip or fall. After all, they cause a third of all home related deaths so we must outlaw stairs, steps, ladders, roofs, trees, etc.

2. Poisoning. More children under the age of 6 die because of poisoning than any other cause in the home. We now must outlaw all perscription drugs, dish soap, detergents, all cleaning chemicals, etc. because parents are too freaking stupid to keep them out of reach or educate their offspring about the dangers of the products.

3. Fires. Outlaw all fireplaces, stoves, ( whether gas or electric ), water heaters, lighters, grills, candles, etc. They cause the third highest rate of deaths in the home, so it must be bad and hence made illegal. Also, you must ban electricity because a lot of fires in the home are started because of elecrtical problems.

4. Suffocation and choking. Hey! No more eating solid food for you! Make it illegal to eat solid food as you may choke on it. All food must be in liquid form or pureed. Also, a little off subject, but fellatio must be outlawed too. You don't want your wife or girlfriend, ( at least in my case ) choking on your over-sized shlong.

5. Drowning. No more bathtubs, no more pools. Outlawed.

6. Firearm deaths. Outlaw all firearms. Only the police and military can have a means of defending themselves if needed. When the bad guy comes to your house to rape, rob and kill you and your family with the gun he has, ( bad guys don't care about the law, they will have a gun ) and you have no way to protect what is precious to you, just remember as you or one of your family is dying, that at least you obeyed the law. The good guy with the gun, ( Mr. Policeman ) will show up after the fact, process your bodies and send you off to the morgue.

The scenarios next to each incident sound kind of stupid, don't they. The biggest problem with firearms in the home is the owners not educating their children about the dangers inherent to said firearms. Studies have shown that children whom were taught the dangers of firearms and firearm safety were 73% less likely to be injured or killed by a gun kept the home. Most gun deaths around the home are not accidents, they are either murders or suicides. That gun can do absolutely nothing unless some person pulls the trigger or otherwise jacks around with it. It can sit loaded and cocked on your nightstand for a thousand years and never fire unless someone messes with it. Just like a knife, sword, hammer, axe, lead pipe, or rope, it is an inanimate object.

Well put, arg!

As for you, Kamaaina, Those stats can be said for cars, steak knives and hammers. I was once a Boy Scout, taught to always be prepared. I'm prepared for an intruder. Our big dogs are the first defense and our guns are our last. A gun in our home has more than once paid for itself in peace of mind and protection. You don't want guns - don't buy one. Keep your rights and let me keep mine, simple as that.

What's wrong with you people? The NRA supports the right to choose to own a gun or not - not the mandate to require everybody to have one.

Phone companies fight tooth and nail to let people text and twit and tweet and talk while driving. So what if a few phones kill people. It certainly had nothing to do with the driver that was using it.