Outstanding move by this California Chapter of BSA. Finally, America is slowly moving towards equal rights for all Americans.

Tolerance-1

BSA-0

It has to do with religion.....About being Reverent....

And guess what? Numerous religions accept homosexuality, including many sects of Christianity.

So no, its just about being bigoted idiots.

@Lawrence Kansas: There are very many religions that embrace LGBT people as full human beings just as God created them, and being gay is no barrier to being reverent. See, e.g., Episcopals, Jews, Unitarians, United Church of Christ and so on and so on and so on.

Nothing in the Boy Scout oath, code or rules says you have to be a protestant evangelical christian fundamentalist.

Glad to see an update on this article, I was a scout too and ashamed over the BSA's stance. But don't start the end-zone dances yet, this is just the Chapter's stance, the BSA is still opposed to it.

It's time for the Boy Scouts organization to GROW UP.

Join the rest of the real world and participate in freedom, personal liberty, and equality.

Reverent also means deeply respectful.

"Gay people?!?!? Ewwww ... Hell No!!"

"Child molesters .... oh, uh, well, ..... er, there's always a few bad apples I guess, he he."

Ohhhhh America .... you cute little ignorant inbred .... I wish I could quite you ....

And guess what? Numerous religions accept homosexuality, including many sects of Christianity.

Uhhhh, yeah. And why is that exactly?

It sure as hell didn't come from studying the Bible any closer.

It came because secular society FORCED religions to rethink their backwards, archaic views on the matter(s). It's the same thing for practically every subject you can imagine ... science, social values, etc.

If religion had its way, we'd still be skipping along gleefully thinking we were at the center of the universe and mental illness came from the impurities of sin.

It sure as hell didn't come from studying the Bible any closer.

Actually, it could've. The Bible, in its original languages, doesn't condemn homosexuality.

Just make a gay boy scouts of America organization. Everyone will be happy then.

Actually, it could've. The Bible, in its original languages, doesn't condemn homosexuality.

Fair enough, but if I were a betting man, I'd be willing to guess the further you go back and the further you wade through the linguistic nightmare that would comprise discovering the more accurate reading/meaning ... my hunch is it would only become more and more intolerant towards the idea of "man on man" relationships.

I think, as you pointed out, you can make the argument that the true language centered more around "promiscuity" and "impurity" as opposed to specific language condemning "homosexuality." But, it's beside the point anyways.

The point is, why the hell are people trying to maintain their ethical calling through a moral compass that includes mandates for slavery and the stoning of insubordinate women and children?

I can think of few LESS moral documents than the Bible, and thousands that are infinitely more compassionate and spiritually uplifting. This is probably one of life's great ironies ... the depths people go through to lose themselves in the Bible, all the while ignoring the grandeur of reality they find themselves in every day.

The Boy Scouts have a Constitutional right to make whatever rules they want. Agree or disagree it's their right. This is where the extremist gay lobby screws up. I could care less what two consenting adults do behind closed doors. But when they try to force their agenda on a private organization that's where I draw the line. You want to allow people of all sexual orientation into a club that promotes the development of youth into responsible members of society be my guest. Start your own organization. Call it whatever you want.

my hunch is it would only become more and more intolerant towards the idea of "man on man" relationships.

To a slight point. The issue wasn't the sexual relationships. The issue was that, to the ancient Jews, sex was only for procreation...and every male was ordered by god to procreate. Therefore, any sex that wasn't for the production of children was taboo. Its the same reason why men were allowed multiple wives if the first was barren.

The issue was that, to the ancient Jews, sex was onlyfor procreation...and every male was ordered by god to procreate. Therefore, any sex that wasn't for the production of children was taboo.

One has to admit that there was probably a little: "Ehh, that's kinda nasty" involved as well, too.

Plus, why do Orthodox Jews almost always omit the point you've highlighted? You never hear them rally against heterosexual couples with a biological inability to procreate. They only get involved when it's sweaty man-on-man action. I have a hypothesis here, but I'd love to get someone else's view on the matter.

Most religions (maybe all) call for virginity until marriage. Perhaps BSA should ask ALL scouts to sign an oath of celebacy. If they aren't going to make a blanket "moral" policy, they should keep their nose out of the kids' sex lives. I doubt they've refused to give Eagle Scout status to a straight boy for bragging about his "sexual prowess".

I had understood that the BSA gay ban was for the adult leaders, and not for the Boys Scouts themselves.

You never hear them rally against heterosexual couples with a biological inability to procreate

I suspect it started getting abused fairly early on, and then overturned at least in practice.

inMYday - I had understood that the BSA gay ban was for the adult leaders, and not for the Boys Scouts themselves.

The BSA national organization has kicked out both gay scouts and atheist scouts, even though the local troops had no problem with those scouts.

Okay, so they go ahead and make him an Eagle and he becomes a Scout leader somewhere else, and on a campout forces himself on some poor unsuspecting 1 or 13 yr old boy. The parents of that boy then sue Boy Scouts because they knowingly allowed an avowed gay to be a scout leader. My guess when all the fire is settled, that whole outfit will be disbanded and therewill be nbe no more Boy Scouts in CA.

riverboy

I'm right there with you, and I hope the BSA will come to its senses so we can do that touchdown dance. I'm worried, though, that BSA will stick to its outdated guns and do a Tebow.

The reality of the situation is that the Boy Scouts are a private organization and as such have the right to set their own membership requirements. You do not have to agree with those requirements, but if you believe in our constitution and the freedoms it guarantees us then you should support their right to set those requirements. If you do not, then you are nothing but a hypocrite who only believes in freedom when it follows with your beliefs of how things should be. This entire controversy was deliberately manufacturer by this kid and his parents. There is normally a very brief period between completing the requirements for Eagle Scout and receiving the award. It was not accident that this kid chose to publicly come out between the completion of the requirements and getting the actual award. The entire thing was set up to create this controversy and generate the lawsuit, which they lost. This kid and his parents were well aware of BSA's views on gays. They did everything they could to set up this conflict to generate press for themselves and stir this up. For that reason I have no sympathy what-so-ever for this kid and support BSA in denying him the award. His conduct in participating in this set up to manufacture the controversy tells me that this kid is not worthy of being an Eagle Scout. No worthy Eagle Scout would ever deliberately go looking for trouble and controversy the way this kid has. You can try and say it was his parents that used him, but this kid was more than old enough to know what was going on and was definitely a knowing and willing participant in this deliberate set up. By these actions he has displayed a character that make him unworthy of being an Eagle Scout. It would be a different story if it had come out that he was gay through no action on his part, but this was done deliberately just to thumb his nose at the BSA membership requirements and he is going to get, or should I say not get what he deserves - he will not get his Eagle Scout Award.

JS in SD - The reality of the situation is that the Boy Scouts are a private organization and as such have the right to set their own membership requirements.

Sure they do, and the rest of us are free to ridicule the dumb bigots and to encourage the few remaining corporate donors to stop funding the dumb bigots.

Ed - Gay does NOT equal pedophile. In fact most pedophiles are hetrosexual adult males who get off on having POWER over a child.

And if the ACTUAL pedophile scandal where the BSA buried the files of those leaders they found to actually be abusing scouts hasn't ended the BSA allowing gays to be leaders and scouts wont either.

So grow up and broaden your mind -- If you can.

Okay, so they go ahead and make him an Eagle and he becomes a Scout leader somewhere else, and on a campout forces himself on some poor unsuspecting 1 or 13 yr old boy. The parents of that boy then sue Boy Scouts because they knowingly allowed an avowed gay to be a scout leader. My guess when all the fire is settled, that whole outfit will be disbanded and therewill be nbe no more Boy Scouts in CA."

chad-1841583

It came because secular society FORCED religions to rethink their backwards, archaic views on the matter(s). It's the same thing for practically every subject you can imagine ... science, social values, etc.

Christians do not “accept” homosexuals in the way your wording seems to suggest. We accept that we are all sinners, including those who choose to live a gay lifestyle (note I didn’t say “choose to be gay”). God
expects us to love our fellow man; however, we are not to say “homosexual? That’s great!” and we don’t. We do say “homosexual? Well, God’s word is clear that homosexuality is a sin just as is adultery or sex outside of marriage but yes, God loves you, just as He does any other sinner and if you ask for His forgiveness, you will receive it.” For the record “secular society” doesn’t have the ability to force God’s people to accept anything –any more than we, as Christians, have the ability, or even the desire, to force
you to act righteously. Usually we just shake our heads, pray for you and continue to serve God, letting you do your own thing. After all, you are the one who will have to answer for it, not us.

Ed, you are an idlot.

@Lawrence Kansas #1.1

"It has to do with religion.....About being Reverent...."

Gay people can't be reverent? Since when?

A Scout is -

Trustworthy

Loyal

Helpful

Friendly

Courteous

Kind

Obedient

Cheerful

Thrifty

Brave

Clean

and Reverent

notice reverent comes last. Guess it wasn't so important after all.

I'm sorry to say this, but the local organization is wrong on this one. As a private organization, the BSA have set forth their rules for membership. One of the rules is that you can't be gay. If you don't like the rules, don't join. Or you can try to get the rules changed.

This truly is no different than a black man trying to join the Klu Klux Klan, a Jew joining the American Nazi Party, or any minority trying to be a leader in the Republican party. Your voice may be heard, but you won't get what you want.

I have no doubt that the ruling body that makes final determination of who qualifies as an Eagle Scout will simply say no, without comment.

Simple: if YOU do not like the rules of an organization don't join. If you are a member: quit.

justicenonexistent - Christians do not “accept” homosexuals in the way your wording seems to suggest.

Not all Christians are members of the American Taliban. Many have no issues with gays at all and don't interpret their bible as you do.

Ed, Nice comment.

The BSA is not a goverment fund org. so there for there laws do not apply.

The BSA should not be forced to allow this type of BS to go on.

They need to turn him down and pull the chapter from the group who is tring to push this thur.

justicenonexistent

What ever made you think I was gay .... just because I call out hypocritical bull@!$%# when I see it?

I'm not gay, I'm actually quite straight. I'm also married and give the Mrs all she can handle (sometimes to the point where she wishes I was gay). Now that we've gotten that out of the way....

I think it's really cute that you think I need to be "prayed for" and "saved." No thanks, your brand of salvation is not for a thinking person to bother themselves with. Don't get me wrong, I rather appreciate the Bible (and your religion's historical significance). But that's where it ends, as it should.

I'm no more fearful of your god's wrath as I am of Poseidon sticking a trident in my ass as I make sweet, sweet love to the wife on a water bed.

Bring them out so they can be guarded, do not want the Sandusky type alone around my kids, otherwise to each his own.

What I don't understand is the militant view by the GLBT community... the BSA does not hide the fact they don't want you in their orginization... so why would you want to be part of it??

Stop pushing your views and values onto everyone else. The BSA has said it's not part of their beliefs or teachings, so move on.

Just another aspect of the world the GLBT community wants to impose their agenda onto...

Well, Chad, you are making a big mistake if you ignore Jesus Christ. if you ignore what he had to say along with the Apostles, I feel real sorry for you.

justicenonexistent

Christians do not “accept” homosexuals in the way your wording seems to suggest.

This is where Christians start to argue with each other over who is "more" Christian. Apparently you believes that your interpretation of the bible is paramount to others who claim to be Christian.

God’s word is clear that homosexuality is a sin

Considering that the word "homosexual" did NOT exist in the time the bible was written, it is definitely NOT clear.

What you should say is: "God's word, as translated, altered and interpreted in the way I support, makes the claim that homosexuality is a sin"

Historians have already shown that the context of the words you interpret as "homosexual" deal in greater part to the instances of rape at that time, and the rampant use of rape (often between two men) in war times to demoralize the opposition.

But don't let historical facts and relevancy get in your way.

any more than we, as Christians, have the ability, or even the desire, to force

Yet you still try, every day, going door-to-door, attempting to force your christian lifestyle on others. Ironically, the same people who will come to your door in an attempt to "convert" you, are the very people who complain that accepting homosexuals in society is somehow "forcing" their lifestyle on them. Can you imaging the Christian outrage if homosexuals went door-to-door in a similar fashion... ahhhhhh hypocrisy.

davsie

I don't ignore Jesus Christ at all ... that's what you Christians do.

I think Christ was actually a pretty swell guy. It's what his followers did to his message of peace, tolerance, and love that makes a lot of people down-right sick.

Feel sorry for me if you must, just do so knowing that I won't be returning the favor.

Sadden American 2012

You know we are talking about children who join when they are six, they hardly know what sex is yet alone whether they are gay or not. DO you propose that after 10 years of work that a kid just says "Sorry I'm gay I can't accept the award I worked hard for using my time and skills, and my parent's time, support and money to gain."

Get real.

Chapters are beginning to accept gay parents and scouts. BSA HQ is being left behind.

@mguy-478 liked your post. You should also add what gives some of these people the gall is presume they know the mind of God?

Don't get me wrong, I rather appreciate the Bible (and your religion's historical significance). But that's where it ends, as it should.

It ends in a room where you don't confess, get some class, maybe then I'd understand your meaning, oh wait you have none.

The Boys Scouts of America have rules just as any other group does. IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE RULES DON'T JOIN. IF YOU CAN'T LIVE BY THE RULES ONCE YOUR A MEMBER QUIT. IF YOU WANT DIFFERENT RULES,START YOUR OWN CLUB. This has nothing to do with religion those of you who say it does are adding it to the mix to make you opinion stronger too your own way of thinking.If the Boy Scouts don't want gays in the club then so be it. This former scout and his whinny father are free to start thier own club. they can call it Gay boys club of America if they like and they can make thier own rules.

I am growing more and more tired of minority groups attempting to change the world to suit THEM .The next step would be that gays would want to change the uniform to pink because that is a better match to thier personality. At some point we have to stand up and say that gays are not always a fit and should not attempt to over ride common respect for others.

Lawrence Kansas

It has to do with religion.....About being Reverent....

No, it's not about A religion, it's about forcing ONE version of a religion upon everyone, regardless of our constitutional freedom to believe whatever religion we wish to.

And by that I mean that this is nothing more than another way for the traditional 'righteous Christian' to enforce his beliefs upon all others as if this was the only possible way to be religious.

The problem is that there are thousands of ways to believe that one is Christian. Why do you think that there are so many religions under the name of 'Christian'? Because every one of these splinter groups has at one time or another thought differently and decided that to be true to thier understanding of thier faith, they had to break away from the religious denomination that they were part of.

Why do you think Anglicans (aka 'the church of England') is different from Catholics, and Methodists from Quakers, Lutherans from Catholics, Baptists from Southern Baptists and American Baptists, Evangelicals from Catholics and so on? Because each one has different beliefs in what it takes to be a Christian. Sometimes it's minor differences, sometimes it's massively different.

It's pathetic that Christians who claim to be all about 'Christian charity' and purport to be following the teachings of Jesus in caring for others must be so intolerant and divisive when it comes to anyone who dares to be different.

And don't worry - I believe myself to be Christian. Not in the 'holier than thou' way that these so-called Christians who do not allow anyone to dare think of being different in thier beliefs, but in the way Jesus intented us to be - to love our fellow man no matter what.

What I don't understand is the militant view by the GLBT community

Me neither????

I mean, what on earth could possess someone to actually want to be treated with the same decency and respect that you and I take for granted? What is it with these animals?

Avenger-2464988

I'll say again kids join when they are 6 for goodness sake! Then you work hard then these guys kick them out. Our local chapter has Gay dads and moms involved, no one cares here, so why should you?

For the record I am get tired of people wanting to exclude others for no other reason than they are a minority.

-

..

Krestov ... did you do the same thing I did? I responded to your post, but only after I realized I read it wrong ... hence my deletion. Maybe you saw what I wrote?

Exactly! Lets agree not to skim read! Had to laugh at myself!

Ha, I knew it ......

I've been inside a hundred churches, am only consistent in one, nowhere ever did anyone force anything religiously on me, people have squandered their christian beliefs but none have forced anything on me, I don't know where this malarkey comes from. I and I alone choose how deep I want to dig into Biblical references..Now if you were in a Muslim country and you weren't Muslim you could end up dead for being Christian, Jewish, something other or Gay..

I am growing more and more tired of minority groups attempting to change the world to suit THEM

Wow, I guess some of you don't even try and hide the bigotry anymore .... you would have fit in perfectly a generation ago.

Lusitania

Now if you were in a Muslim country and you weren't Muslim you could end up dead for being Christian, Jewish, something other or Gay

I think it's funny you bring up this point.

If you were born into a Muslim country, chances are ...... wait for it ........ you'd be a Muslim.

You'd be on this same thread telling us all about Muhammad and how he's the truth and the light and how you "dig deep" into the holy Qu'ran for your guidance and wisdom.

Doesn't that give you the slightest bit of pause .... the fact that your faith is a mere circumstance of geographical birth and cultural inheritance?

Don't you take even the slightest pause at that idea? I guess not.

If a person does not fit the criteria of an organization, why must ppl try and change this to meet their needs.. Why don't the gays just form their own Scout troops? The BSA have rights as well. When everyone begins to realize this, a better world it will be.. There are atheists, Gays, and so many more that want to take our rights and freedoms.. Get over it and create your own.

Next they will insist we all partake in their Gay agenda's. Sick Sick Sick

Avenger

I am growing more and more tired of minority groups attempting to change the world to suit THEM .The next step would be that gays would want to change the uniform to pink because that is a better match to thier personality. At some point we have to stand up and say that gays are not always a fit and should not attempt to over ride common respect for others.

Right... those gays keep trying to change the world to fit their needs. Damn them.

What next? Are gays going to start building giant, monolithic temples in every city, where they can ring a giant bell to let the surrounding area know they are meeting. Then, every time someone drives by, they have to see a big "gay" steeple and know that is where the "gays" meet.

The next step would be for the gays to STEAL a holiday, and claim it to be their own. Then, whenever someone does not follow their holiday, as they intend, they can claim there is a "war" on this holiday.

Finally, the gays will probably start going door-to-door, trying to "convert" people to their lifestyle. Can you imagine sitting in your home, enjoying dinner, then being interrupted by a knock from someone who wants to talk to you about their lifestyle? Talk about invading my privacy and forcing yourself on someone.

I mean, can you even imagine is those "gays" started doing that? Well, thank god there is no one currently doing all this, am I right?... oh wait.

If he completed all the requirements for Eagle Scout then he deserves the award. He did the work now he deserves the badge.

Stick to your guns BSA , the VAST MAJORITY of the country is behind you !!! The LOUD LIBERALS are just that and if you want a petition with MILLIONS of signatures on it, ask who supports the BSA !!!

That is where the term-agressive militant gays come from. Force everyone to do what they want.

Christianity that accepts homosexuality will be condemmed by God and always has been.

Howy61

It is about time BSA is forced to deal with reality that sexual orientation has nothing to do with being a good citizen.

Give me just one example of "forcing" anyone to do anything that turned out well. What the BSA needs is internal and voluntary change and this action is certainly a step in the right direction. Hopefully it will encourage more people within the organization to stand up for what is right.

Johnny N.

Stick to your guns BSA , the VAST MAJORITY of the country is behind you !!!

Sorry dude but your "majority" is a minor one at best and diminishing all the time. In fact I'd bet the majority of Americans would support the BSA allowing gays, it's only when you talk about marriage that the majority swings in your favor.

This is stupid and no he did not deserve an eagle scout badge - he has lied from the start - he has been dishonorable to all by lying about his sexual orientation. You don't follow the guidelines, you do not deserve to be honored! I dont care if you are a purple 3 legged space creature, if purple 3 legged space creatures are not allowed, then they are not allowed. I personally do not find it appropriate for homosexuals to take showers with my boys in summer camps no more than it is appropriate for heterosexual males to shower with your under age daughters. That's part of the reason I trust Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. AND if you want to make a comment about how there have been molestations in Scouts... Remember that would be a homosexual lying about their orientation to get in and do those despicable things.. just like this dishonorable individual~

If the BSA shouldn't discriminate about sexual orientation then should they discriminate about sex, gender and age which is all illegal under the law for most businesses. I guess the BSA will no longer just allow girls in the girl scouts or just boys in the boy scouts, and what about age can a 60 year old man join the girl scouts?

I'll give it a shot, chad-1841583...

allswell, saying that the well-known Leviticus verse is really about sex-without-procreation is kinda like saying the Civil War was really about States Rights: correct in a very loose, technical sense but it completely disregards that the central issue was slavery, plain and simple. It's what us Southerners say when we want to put a good face on the fact that the South fought to keep human beings in bondage.

And so it is with that verse. The central point *of that verse* is that homosexuality is a sin and offenders should die. Plain and simple. And it has been interpreted by all the Abrahamic religions as such for the thousands of years since it was written, even if the killin' doesn't happen so much anymore. Specifically, homosexuality isn't treated as mere fornication. It is a sin in and of itself due to the fact that it involves man-on-man, exactly like incest and bestiality are sins separate from fornication and adultery. Question: do churches treat heterosexual fornication the same as homosexual fornication?

To Chad's point about secular influences, when a congregation or pastor accept *practicing* LGBT members it's not because the parent religion suddenly says it's ok. It's because the congregation and pastor have very secular feelings about fairness and equality and interpret the love, tolerance and acceptance as Christlike through those secular views. Often, this will happen over the ojections of the parent religion.

To JS in SD and others with the "The BSA can do what they want. Join or not as you wish"...

You are absolutely correct: It is their organization and they can make the rules. But, this isn't about laws and most people who castigate the BSA for this understand. The issue isn't that the BSA should be forced *by law* to allow LGBT members but rather that organizations like this are made of up people who volunteer their time to an effort that fits them and their lives.

My guess is many boyscouts who are gay didn't come to the realization that they were gay until after they joined. For those who started out in Cub Scouts, I guarantee that they didn't know they were gay when they joined. If they did know they were gay, they probably couldn't bring themselves to admit to themselves and/or their parents. Can you imagine this scenario?

MOM/DAD: Well, Timmy, you're 8 years old now and we're going to put you in Cub Scouts.

TIMMY: Sorry. Can't. I'm gay.

Scouts and the parents of scouts usually get involved in scouts way before the kid understands his sexual orientation. So, it's really not a matter of "if you're a gay 12-year old, don't join".

Decades ago, the idea of homosexuals and atheism as sinful was held by the majority of Americans. Not so much now; even to the point that we're seeing major demographic shifts in this.

The BSA used to have a very respected place in our society as a place where boys are given examples and lessons on being good, responsible people that strive to make our country a better place. But when increasingly people feel that the lessons and principles are based more on bigotry and exclusion than tolerance and love, the BSA's will lose it's respected place. Those like the California chapter see where it's heading and want to prevent it. I'll wager they consider that ignoring the ban is a way to save the BSA's reputation as a relevant, safe place for their sons to continue to grow and learn how to become good and responsible men.

The BSA has no problem protecting pedophile scout leaders but it will not tolerate gay kids. Their stance is kind of t like the Roman Catholic church, that they are often affiliated with.

Maybe there is a message here that we are missing?

Sadden American 2012 - What I don't understand is the militant view by the GLBT community....

I'll bet you also didn't understand why blacks wanted to ride at the front of the bus.

justicenonexistent;including those who choose to live a gay lifestyle

Seriously? Ok if it is a choice, tell us when it was that you made your mind up that you are hetro?

What???? you've always known....News Flash...The same is true for us.

The only difference is we have to spend part of our lives questioning who we are because of people and their belief that somehow this is a choice....and the GOD thing.

Realize that many youth that are LBGT try suicide, and turn to addiction,and have a negative self image because of those views. Go ahead use the bible....But be careful...Remember Jesus stood with a whore and said?

For all you others out there......Private clubs have been sued for not letting people of color, different religious backgrounds and I might add sexual orientation join.

Let the boy have his badge, I'm sure God won't be pissed......If you think he would I suggest you ask him when you see him. Some how I don't think the LBGT community is first on Gods list of the condemned.

All we are asking for is not special rights...But equal rights under the law. The sooner we see that the sooner we will stop making a fuss over it....until then you'll continue to hear stories like this one.

And Oh by the way......Do some research

King James ( attributed translator of the modern Bible that you use) Was Bisexual.

I've read through most of the comments here, and I've watched most of the news reports about this particular scout over the past year.

I speak as someone who was an assistant scout master for years in a local troop, and as someone who has a brother & close friends who are currently involved in local scouting leadership.

I don't necissarily agree with the stance that BSA has taken, but the way the SCOTUS has ruled, the BSA are not likely to change their stance any time soon. My guess is that at the national level, they'll recieve this latest local recommendation on this scout, reject it, and either say nothing or repeat what they have said in the past.

The law allows them, as a private organization, to govern their rules for membership with regards to sexual orientation any way they choose. The reason they are not likely to change has been touched on here by a couple of people, but here is my take on the rest of that story. The main reason they are not incented to change in any way is that their main sources of support and revenue come directly through churches.

As a side note, before I proceed with the explanation of church support, I did want to mention that BSA used to recieve significant subsidies from governments at all levels. A number of years ago, due to court decisions I believe, the organization changed it's official policy to discourage public subsidies. They did this in order to more clearly demonstrate they are a private (not public) organization subject to the same rules, charges, and regulations that other private groups are subject too. So although some subsidies might still exist here and there at local levels of government, those are exceptions that can be challenged and not the rule. I was told that the official position of the BSA was that troops were to pay for things like overnight campground charges at federal recreation areas, and entrance fees at national parks, city/county rental/activity space, etc.

But here are the important numbers for BSA. Of the top 10 chartered organizations that sponsor BSA, 6 of them are churches (LDS, United Methodist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Lutheran, & Baptist) The top 10 represent about 81,000 total troop units. The top 3 alone (which are churches) represent more than 57,500 (71%) of these total troop units. Of the top 10 troop units in the US more than 85% of them are church affiliated. Overwhelmingly BSA are supported by churches. So local government subsidies that may have disappeared over the past decade matter less because your local congregations are there to pick up the costs.

Here is what else it means. BSA's annual income from 2008 (what I could find on the internet) totaled more than $133 million. 60% of their revenue comes directly from membership fees for each scout. In most church affiliated scout troops these fees are paid by the church. Another 6.5% of revenue comes from post sales to troops for things that scouts will use like handbooks, manuals, patches, etc. and magazine subscriptions for publications like Boy's Life. Much of this is also paid for by the local troops on behalf of the boys. So you have an organization dealing in annual revenues of hundreds of millions of dollars of which upwards of two-thirds of said revenue comes in payments directly from churches.

So, it is easy to see that for BSA the religious affiliation is vital to their continued existence.

Now ask yourself, how likely is the Catholic Church (or the Pope) to change it's stance on homosexuality? How about the LDS (Mormon) Church in Salt Lake City? Southern Baptists? Methodists?

Not very likely. So as long as BSA keeps the status quo with regards to their stance on not allowing homosexuals to participate, they keep their relationships (and funding) in place with these churches.

Another point to be made here, it isn't some kind of nefarious, secret pact that they have either. If you have ever been affiliated with scouting before, then you know that all local leaders in the troops as well as area council members and regional leadership all the way up to the national organization are largely volunteers (there are obviously paid employees at the top, but the vast majority of human resource infrastructure of the BSA is volunteer). They are elected & as a result the leadership is reflective of the membership. They make decisions based on their affiliation with their home troops. So if an area councilmember's experience has been as a scout master in a Catholic troop for 20 years, then that is what he will bring to his leadership position.

So even though they have lost out on some corporate sponsorships over the past decade, their main gravy train continues. It will stay that way until the major organized religions change their stance on homosexuality. And no amount of posts on the internet, or signatures on petitions, or public outcry is going to change it. This is my take on it. Feel free to disagree, but as with most things, you simply have to follow the money.

It's very sad in this day and age when Human Beings STILL cannot overcome their hatred and fear of anyone who does not follow what THEY perceive as the mainstream.. Ignorant people in this world seem unable and unwilling to accept the fact that people everywhere are BORN different and nothing they can say or do will change it.. So, they rant and rave and they protest and they call these people names and they even make laws, rules and regulations trying to prohibit them from being productive members of society.. In some cases and in some countries anyone with a different sexual orientation are jailed and even murdered by others who are literally terrified of them!

I've never understood this, never understood the bigotry and intolerance for another person simply because they don't feel the same way, sexually, about the opposite sex as I do.. Who cares?? They aren't hurting me, they aren't forcing their morals on me or anyone else! What they do in private is THEIR business, not mine! I only know them as friends, friends who, no matter what the hell their sexual preference may be, would go out of their way to help me if I needed it!

People are people and if you would turn down the friendship of someone because of their sexual preferences, then YOU are the one on the losing end of life, not them! In reality, there are laws against YOUR intolerance and bigotry and THAT'S how it should be!!

Well stated Seabreezin ;)

Ghengis Khan - Now ask yourself, how likely is the Catholic Church (or the Pope) to change it's stance on homosexuality? How about the LDS (Mormon) Church in Salt Lake City? Southern Baptists? Methodists?

The Southern Baptists won't change for a very long time, but the LDS church and Methodists are already changing. The Catholic hierarchy is very resistant to change but the vast majority of Catholics already support gay rights - in fact 71% support marriage equality.

Your point about church sponsorship is a good one, but remember that the BSA changed its policies about racially segregated troops not all that long ago, and that was while the BSA was still completely controlled by Southern Baptists who founded their cult on slavery and white supremacy.

Regarding their funding, the BSA has already lost most of their big corporate donors due to their bigoted policies. They've also had a number of key board members resign over this, and many Eagle Scouts have returned their badges in disgust.

Scout Oath

On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

As has been mentioned BSA is private if you can't keep the Oath why would you want to join? Morally straight would exclude sexual activities (remember troops are usually chartered by religious groups). To be blunt most teenage boys would try and nail a knot hole. One of BSA's purposes is to redirect those energies. Sex belongs in the parents realm and is not (nor should it be) BSA responsiblity. There is no need for BSA do know someone's sexual preferance. If sex is one of the activities involved is scouting, there is something wrong.

Local review board urges Boy Scouts to award Eagle rank to gay teen

Money!

People are pizzed and pulling away from the Boyscout of America and they want your money, so pony up the medal/award now.

Now that they have been exposed for their bigotry against gay kids, they have now learned a hard lesson that the people of the USA are more accepting of gay people and they pulled away from the Boyscouts for discrimination and bigotry.

The kid earned his award/medal, so holding it from him was just wrong and criminal, and I do home they sue the Boyscouts out of business as well.

Kudos to the kid and his parents, and I say sue them, sue them for bug dollars, and sue them for discrimination.

Why would anyone want to join this hate group anyway ?

Its shameful but the BSA has every right as a private organization to admit who they want. BUT, they should not be allowed to have any public funding at all or be allowed to use any public facilities at taxpayer cost. No school facilities, community centers(without paying for them) etc. Also should be classified as a hate group.

The only way I stop giving to the BSA is if this kid receives the Eagle Scout badge.

Seebreezin'

"They aren't hurting me, they aren't forcing their morals on me or anyone else!"

Uh, Seebreezin, did you even read the article? The subject matter is gays trying to FORCE their morals on the Boy Scouts, first through the courts and now through public discussion.

"What they do in private is THEIR business, not mine!"

Wouldn't have a problem if that were the case, but this is public, not private. What someone does in public view is the business of the public.

"In reality, there are laws against YOUR intolerance and bigotry and THAT'S how it should be!!"

And you are not being intolerant? You sure sound intolerant. Some people have firm and high moral beliefs, and live by them. These people are rare nowadays and should be praised, not ranted at by people who themselves meet the definition of intolerant and bigot. Do not try to force immorality on others under the guise of enlightenment or being modern versus dark ages. Simply admit that your moral standards are less than theirs and you want them to adhere to your level of morality. Don't even attempt to take the high moral road in trying to get the BSA to lower their moral standards.

"It is about time BSA is forced to deal with reality that sexual orientation has nothing to do with being a good citizen."

Why should anyone be "forced" into doing anything that they feel uncomfortable with, feels that is wrong, or goes against their beliefs? The idea of "forcing" anyone to do something they are against is quite disturbing to me...

I just don't understand the need of people to try and force other groups to change to fit their ideas. When the young man realized he was gay he had an obligation to drop out, he was violating the BSA rules, even more confusing is him wanting to stay in BSA.

Funny how so many are saying they quit supporting the BSA because of this. Why would you support an organization that has rules that are fundamentally against your standards in the first place. Most likely you never supported them to begin with, so why the fake outrage now.

Why would any gay person want to be part of the BSA in the first place, if the LBGT community has soooo much support that you all calm to have then go out and start the Gay Scouts of America. Then you can just look at the BSA and pity them all you want, learn from the rest of us minorities go out and start your own thing, then you can make all the rules.

allswell, saying that the well-known Leviticus verse is really about sex-without-procreation is kinda like saying the Civil War was really about States Rights: correct in a very loose, technical sense but it completely disregards that the central issue was slavery, plain and simple. It's what us Southerners say when we want to put a good face on the fact that the South fought to keep human beings in bondage.

And so it is with that verse. The central point *of that verse* is that homosexuality is a sin and offenders should die. Plain and simple. And it has been interpreted by all the Abrahamic religions as such for the thousands of years since it was written, even if the killin' doesn't happen so much anymore. Specifically, homosexuality isn't treated as mere fornication. It is a sin in and of itself due to the fact that it involves man-on-man, exactly like incest and bestiality are sins separate from fornication and adultery. Question: do churches treat heterosexual fornication the same as homosexual fornication?

Sin is not mentioned in Leviticus under the original languages. Instead, a word with a meaning closer to "taboo" than the commonly mistranslated "abomination" is used. One only needs to take a briefly look at Jewish history to know that Leviticus was entirely a social code.

In addition, the first person to claim homosexuality as a sin was...brace for it...a Christian translating the Bible into Latin. St Augustine, regarded as perhaps the most prudish man in history, who took every sexual act under the sun that wasn't married, missionary sex and labeled it "fornici". Interestingly enough, you wanna know what that word actually refers to? Prostitution. That's its historical use before St Augustine got a hold of it.

To Chad's point about secular influences, when a congregation or pastor accept *practicing* LGBT members it's not because the parent religion suddenly says it's ok. It's because the congregation and pastor have very secular feelings about fairness and equality and interpret the love, tolerance and acceptance as Christlike through those secular views. Often, this will happen over the ojections of the parent religion.

Except, there is no such thing as a "parent religion". Religions are not thinking, approving entities unless they are like the Catholic Church, which has a formal head. So guess what? When the Evangelical Christian Church decided homosexuality wasn't a sin...it wasn't a sin anymore to anyone practicing that religion.

Dick-2100935

If the BSA shouldn't discriminate about sexual orientation then should they discriminate about sex, gender and age which is all illegal under the law for most businesses. I guess the BSA will no longer just allow girls in the girl scouts or just boys in the boy scouts,

Girls are already allowed in the Boy Scouts and I'm sure if you wanted to join they'd let you too.

Allswell, first, thanks for an intelligent, reasoned discussion. So many comments on here devolve to insults. I hope we can continue in this vein...

Sin is not mentioned in Leviticus under the original languages. Instead, a word with a meaning closer to "taboo" than the commonly mistranslated "abomination" is used. One only needs to take a briefly look at Jewish history to know that Leviticus was entirely a social code.

In addition, the first person to claim homosexuality as a sin was...brace for it...a Christian translating the Bible into Latin. St Augustine, regarded as perhaps the most prudish man in history, who took every sexual act under the sun that wasn't married, missionary sex and labeled it "fornici". Interestingly enough, you wanna know what that word actually refers to? Prostitution. That's its historical use before St Augustine got a hold of it.

You're right that the Torah/Old Testament is more than just a list of commandments. It's a history, a tradition, a faith, a culture and every other aspect of a society in one rich document. But, focusing on whether a word translates to "sin", "taboo" or "unlawful" is missing the forest for the trees. Regardless of the term, it was an activity prohibited under punishment of death. And this attitude pervades the Abrahamic religions and the legal systems based on them.

And that's rather the gist of my argument. We can debate the original wording, the different languages it's been translated in, the different ways the translations can be interpreted and how the interpretations have changed over the centuries. But historically, the Abrahamic religions have interpreted the scriptures to mean that the sin of homosexuality is different than mere sex-without-procreation. In other words, how a scripture is put into practice by the overwhelming majority of the religion and it's sects has more meaning than a dry, syntactical analysis of the words.

Except, there is no such thing as a "parent religion". Religions are not thinking, approving entities unless they are like the Catholic Church, which has a formal head. So guess what? When the Evangelical Christian Church decided homosexuality wasn't a sin...it wasn't a sin anymore to anyone practicing that religion.

I agree, there are christian denominations that don't have an organized head. Southern Baptist is one I believe as well as the thousands of small congregations started by honest, god-fearing pastors that lead their flock as best they can.

But you also mention that some organized religions have parent organizations that establish the doctrine and policy of all congregations. How binding the decisions are and what the consequences are for pastors/congregations varies.

But I say that all the major organized christian churches -- the three Catholic churches (Roman, Greek & Russian), Episcopalian, Methodist, Lutheran, LDS, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists - all have a central counsel or person that acts as the Mouthpiece of God, as it were, to establish the official stance of that religion.

As an example, the Episcopalian church recently had a tussle with a California diocese (correct term for Episc?) over the appointment of an openly gay bishop as that was a violation of the Episcopalian doctrine. Just this past week, the church changed their position slightly: Gays can become bishops as long as they remain celibate. In other words, they can't be a practicing homosexual. This is a perfect example of how the secular ideas of equality, acceptance and inclusion are influencing the religious interpretation.

Reminds me of a joke: Man tells his friend he's moving out of the country forever. His friend asks why.

"150 years ago, if you were a homosexual, you were put to death. 100 years ago, they just put you in prison. 50 years ago, you were villified and discriminated against. Today, homosexuals get legal protection. I'm gettin' the hell outta here before they make it mandatory."

all have a central counsel or person that acts as the Mouthpiece of God, as it were, to establish the official stance of that religion.

While the Catholics may see the leader as a mouthpiece of a deity, this is not the case with the Protestant sects. In fact this was a major part of why they broke off in the first place.

Fishead-62 - As an example, the Episcopalian church recently had a tussle with a California diocese (correct term for Episc?) over the appointment of an openly gay bishop as that was a violation of the Episcopalian doctrine. Just this past week, the church changed their position slightly: Gays can become bishops as long as they remain celibate. In other words, they can't be a practicing homosexual.

Ummm......I'm pretty sure the Episcopal church not only allows gay bishops to be married, but there's also no celibacy requirement. I suspect you're thinking of the Anglican church.

allswell, I used "Mouthpiece of God" as a kind of shorthand: Organized religions generally consider their doctrine to be the Word of God and the doctrine is set by a man or group of men that understand and proclaim God's doctrine as He wants it dispensed. That doctrine is applied at the local level by pastors & congregations. Depending on the church, the council/prophet may have more or less authority to exact compliance.

But the driving point is that in general, organized religions establish doctrine that is intended to be followed by all adherents of that religion as the accepted Word of God. And, although there are some exceptions, in general the doctrine of the Abrahamic religions consider and treat homosexuality is a sin beyond the general taboo of sex-without-procreation.

skrekk, I found this on Huffington @ when I made the comment:

CANTERBURY, England (RNS) The Church of England on Friday (Jan. 4) confirmed that it has dropped its prohibition on gay clergy in civil partnerships becoming bishops -- but only if they agree to remain celibate.

That was the first Google result I went to. When I saw your post, I glanced over other sources and the Huff may be the only one making that claim. It could also be that here celibate means "no sex outside of the union" as opposed to "no sex".

However, whether the Episc still have a celibate requirement or not isn't nearly as significant as the fact that they changed at all. In fact, it's relates right back to the general discussion of the BSAs and their gay position. (Pun not intended, but kept when I read back what I wrote.)

One of the points of my original comment was the idea that the governing board has complete freedom to set policy as they wish. However, you can't separate the people from the organization, especially one with a huge participation of volunteer members that are both administrators (Scoutmasters, Den Mothers, Council members) and beneficiaries (their sons are scouts). The same holds for churches, especially where the congregation volunteers as Sunday School teachers, youth program leaders, etc. And especially when the organization is perceived something you need to be a good person, to be saved, etc.

Many people won't abandon a beloved and revered institution because they don't like what it is becoming... or not becoming, as the case may be. Many people will try to change it to what they feel is right and good. In the particular case of homosexuality and the BSA... or the Episcopalian church, for that matter... the local members feel that the ban is not right and good. They feel inclusion and tolerance is the right and good thing to do, at least in their particular chapter/troop/diocese. They feel the governing body's refusal is a bad thing and want to make the institution they love good again... or at least better in light of the changing values of our culture.

The institution can accept the changing demographics, as the Episcoplians have, and stay relevant and perceived as a good organization. Or they can dig in their heels and risk losing members and the respected status in the society.

@Retief94

To say you believe that the BSA is 'lowering' their 'moral standards' by allowing gays to join is pretty much beyond belief to me and terribly sad! I pity you, your intolerance and bigotry is the same type that tortured and burned innocent people at the stake because they didn't believe in the same faith as you or were, in your eyes, 'witches or warlocks', so therefore, deserved to die.. You are the same type of person who placed burning crosses on the lawns of black people who were fighting for their civil rights and the same type of person who threw men, women and children to the lions because their ideology was different then yours..

I realize talking to you, trying to make you see that you are the type of person that abhors change, that is terrified of anyone who is different in anyway from you, is pretty much a useless effort.. The world has always had to put up with people who put themselves on their own pedestals, declaring loudly and self-righteously, that they are perfect and refuse to condone what THEY see as deviant, but their version and your version of perfection is not mine, thank God!

The laws of this country say discrimination for ANY reason is wrong, it's sad that private organizations such as the BSA can bypass those laws that every other business must obey.. Hopefully, things will change within the hierarchy of the Scouts themselves and those who do NOT want to uphold intolerance will take a firm stand against it.. It might not be today or tomorrow, but change will come and, hopefully, people with your sad, old beliefs that different is bad will slowly fade away until none are left to remember your foolish fears..

Fishead-62 - CANTERBURY, England (RNS) The Church of England on Friday (Jan. 4) confirmed that it has dropped its prohibition on gay clergy in civil partnerships becoming bishops -- but only if they agree to remain celibate.

That's my point - you confused the Church of England with the Episcopal church.

The Episcopal church has no celibacy requirement for either its gay or straight bishops.

I gotcha. Thanks for the correction.

""it's time the BSA was wrested away from the Mormons and given back to the actual boy scouts.""

No kidding it is a shame that one Bigoted organization/religion can dictate how the program - FOR YOUNG BOYS is run. If it were not for the adults Boy Scouts would be great.

Just think if Romney had won how many other facets of our lives would be controlled by this crazy group.

If it is Reverence you are looking for do you really think Jesus would hate so vehemently? NO (and I am not a religious person)

Why does it always seem globally that it is religion that really messes things up? Believe it what YOU want but don't push your beliefs on everyone else. That is what America is all about.

XX.

Bigoted?? THAT'S what the GLBT communty is ALL ABOUT! They have no respect for the straight communty... in the GLBT view, ALL SHOULD ACCEPT THEM. How is THAT not bigotry?? The BSA has stated they wish to keep that acpect of life out of their organization. So why do the GLBT orginizations wish to impose their bigotry onto the BSA??

No, it's not a public orginization, the GLBT has no right to demand acceptance or inclusion.

No, it's not a public orginization, the GLBT has no right to demand acceptance or inclusion.

Of course they do. People can demand whatever they want. As constituents of the organization, they can exercise their 1st Amendment rights to say whatever they want about the organization, provided they're not being slanderous, which they aren't.

You are correct in that they have no legal route to force acceptance or inclusion. However, they are free to make their case in the court of public opinion, and let the world decide. And each time it gets challenged, opinion moves more and more in favor of letting GLBT kids in.

As an Eagle scout myself, I'm happy for this challenge. I think it's time for this policy to go. And it will. Just a matter of persistence and time.

Sadden American 2012 - Bigoted?? THAT'S what the GLBT communty is ALL ABOUT! They have no respect for the straight communty... in the GLBT view, ALL SHOULD ACCEPT THEM. How is THAT not bigotry??

Just an FYI, the vast majority of us who support equal rights for gays are in fact straight ourselves.

Bigots like you are in the minority today, and it's a rapidly shrinking minority.

The LDS church bailed out the BSA in the 70s when it was floundering based on a "revelation" from God to the head of the church in Salt Lake City. The leadership of the BSA is MORMON. The anti-gay policy was initiated as a memo written in the late-70s by the then President of the BSA, a Mormon. The LDS church runs over 30,000 troops. No non-Mormons are allowed to join these troops and these troops shore up the BSA financially. When the fight began last year, the LDS church threatened to pull all 31,000 troops out, which would basically collapse the BSA. The current President of the BSA, by the way --- is a Mormon. The Mormons evidently believe homosexuality is a choice and in any case, are holding the entire BSA organization hostage. That the President of the United States is listed as "Honorary President" of the BSA. If the US really wanted to do something Obama could resign his honorary post and stop renting government land to the BSA for their jamorees until the LDS church stopped legislating their own twisted morality on the American youth.

I'm Gay and I love straight people.....My parents, my sisters, most of my friends all straight.

I think Sadden American 2012 must have had a gay person tell him NO! GO BACK TO YOUR WIFE & KIDS.

It's that or something else. How else could he make that kind of general statement without having any interaction with the LBGT community. I'm not aware of any LBGT groups that target straight people......If they are out there please inform us Sadden.

BTW Sadden there where until just a few years back private golf courses that denied entrance or memberships to people of color. They where sued. This is no different.

Thank You Skekk ;) for your support

Charles. One could make a point that BSA would not survive without the "Mormons"

LDS church has 37882 troops chartered, Methodists 11078, Catholic 8870, parent groups 3712, Presbyterian 3663, Lutheran 3902, Baptist 4099.

Sadden American, you're trolling, right? I mean, you gotta be...

Bigoted?? THAT'S what the GLBT communty is ALL ABOUT! They have no respect for the straight communty... in the GLBT view, ALL SHOULD ACCEPT THEM. How is THAT not bigotry?? The BSA has stated they wish to keep that acpect of life out of their organization. So why do the GLBT orginizations wish to impose their bigotry onto the BSA??

So, trying to end bigotry *IS* bigotry? That sounds an awful like Orwell's doublespeak: "Ignorance is knowledge", "Weakness is strength". By that logic, Martin Luther King, Jr was racist and Susan B. Anthony was sexist. How is insisting on acceptance NOT bigotry? By the very definition of bigotry, that's how.

Bigotry is non-acceptance. Acceptance is non-bigotry.

You are a credit to the Boy Scouts. Thank you for your tolerance and humanity.

As an atheist, I was lucky to have a Scoutmaster like you. I enjoyed my time with the scouts immensely, but I'm ashamed of their national policies.

I never allowed my son to scout as all the leaders I knew were nothing how you say you are.. What a shame more do not follow your policy.

As a former Scoutmaster and Verturing Advisor, my scouts LIVED the 12 principals and none of those principals had anything to do with sexual orientation. My boys and female venturers were taught:

A Scout is:

• Trustworthy,
• Loyal,
• Helpful,
• Friendly,
• Courteous,
• Kind,
• Obedient,
• Cheerful,
• Thrifty,
• Brave,
• Clean,
• and Reverent.

Notice it does not say straight or gay, nor does it say you must be intolerant.

Being in violation of the policies of the organization you claim to be a part of is neither reverent, trustworthy, obedient, loyal, or courteous.

There ya go...

enderover - then you shouldn't be affiliated with the Boy Scouts. If you aren't following their rules, then you shouldn't be a part of the organization.

Scouting is bigger than those that run the organization...

Teaching young men to be moral, responsible, respectable adults is more important than a close minded, exclusionary policy.

Ryan's (and BSA's) quandry is that they are dealing with an age progression. It's one thing to ban someone from the outset, another to ban them at the zenith of their scouting. Ryan was a long-time scout, well before his sexual orientation emerged. He didn't join the scouts knowing he was gay. To be told "you have to leave now" after that investment of time and membership seems both mean and pointless. The Girl Scouts are so much less self-righteous.

Again the scout law is given with out the scout oath, which is not objective. At the risk of being redundant;

On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight

And morally straight has nothing to do with a person's sexuality.

He obviously is in the wrong religious organization. Why did he become a scout if he was gay. That's like being upset the KKK doesn't want you. They don't accept homosexuals, get over it and don't participate. WTF..

To do my duty to God and my country

Knowing this is your focus, where does it say this god is the Christian god?

If the best leaders are in the military, why then have so many flag rank officers been punished for bad acts here recently!

The US Military is ONLY okay with gays becasue liberal govermnent forced it to happen... you'll still get your asss beat if you come out as gay in the Army or Marines... not so much in the Navy.

Why should the BSA be forced to change their core beliefs becuase a minority group says so?

...you'll still get your asss beat if you come out as gay in the Army or Marines

Can you cite credible sources for that claim? I don't mean one or two incidents ... those can happen anywhere with anyone. I mean proof that its a systemic problem.

Yeah, the only incidents I've really heard of involve Republican Congressmen trying to pass legislation to harass LBGT service members.

http://www.metroweekly.com/feature/?ak=7759

Don't ask don't tell, doesn't work for adults. In a boys organization, where sex is not an approved activity, it would work.

The US Military is ONLY okay with gays becasue liberal govermnent forced it to happen... you'll still get your asss beat if you come out as gay in the Army or Marines... not so much in the Navy.

As a serving member of the armed forces, I have to say you're full of @!$%#.

The soldiers and marines could care less, so long as you do your job like you're supposed to. The marines I've met have stated it most clearly: "when the bullets fly, the guy next to you isn't gay, straight, black, white, jewish, atheist...he's a marine, and he's watching your back."

@allswell...That is so true what you said about the Marines...Thank you...

Basic human rights and equality are never "old stories."

Corona - This is not a "basic human rights and equality" issue. You don't have the right to join a private organization in the United States JUST because you want to. The Constitution clearly states that you have the freedom to associate with whomever you want.

Whether or not the Scouts stance is morally wrong I'll leave to you and everyone else to discuss, but from a point of law view there is no rights or equality violation here. Please don't claim that which does not exist...

in case ya'll missed it, you take an oath, and when you take that oath you live by it. you know what you are getting into, so this is pure BS. the last two words of the oath are "morally straight". he knew he was gay, and gay is not part of Boy Scouts.

And "morally straight" has nothing to do with sexuality, nor is homosexuality immoral due to the fact that the BSA includes more than just Christianity.

texas patriot (we all know what that is code for).

Intolerance is immoral.

Hatred is immoral

Discrimination is immoral.

texaspatriot

Do you really believe the term "morally straight" referred to one's sexual orientation? As a boy, my Dad often said, "You'd better straighten up and keep your room clean". I don't think there was any sexual connotation in his demands. "Keeping to the straight and narrow" doesn't require heterosexual participation. "Going straight to hell" does not exclude gays.

texaspatriot

in case ya'll missed it, you take an oath, and when you take that oath you live by it. you know what you are getting into, so this is pure BS. the last two words of the oath are "morally straight". he knew he was gay, and gay is not part of Boy Scouts.

In case you missed it, you took the context of two words of the message out of context.

The Boy Scout Oath:

"On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight."

Morally straight...hm....when reading the full oath it sounds more like it is regarding morals (treat others with kindness, do no wrong unto others, be respectful of your elders and peers, be honest to yourself and those around your, etc.) not one's sexual orientation. It talks of being physically fit to do what is required, mentally alert to concentrate what needs to be done, and stick to the morals that make a person a valuable asset to their group.

An observation about the 'oath': Is it kind to discriminate? Is it friendly to judge & condemn? Is it helpful to hurt someones feelings? Is it courteous to insult someone? HOW can anyone take this oath and 'swear' to be kind, friendly, helpful and courteous and then NOT be kind, friendly, helpful and courteous to someone they disapprove of? If the ban on gays is not lifted then I think the Oath needs to be amended to better reflect the reality of the situation (fear, intolerance, unkindness, hatred)

Oh Texas, your citizens are a gift that keeps on giving, much like an STD.

texaspatriot-or rather, texasbigot- Morally Straight is defined as "To be a person of strong character, guide your life with honesty, purity and justice. Respect and defend the rights of all people.'' Now, my son is gay. He has never been involved with anyone in a sexual relationship, because he wants to finish school and concentrate on that. He is in the group at school that follows children who are bullied and defends them. He takes in injured animal and cares for them. He is respectful to his parents, helps the elderly and is, in general a great kid.He would have been a terrific Boy Scout. According to your assessment however, he is not "morally straight". My son is more "morally straight" according to the definition of the Boy Scouts of America than probably you are.

Morally straight?? Hmmmm. In my three years as a scoutmaster, I would have to say that a good number of our straight scouts would not have been able to live up to the scout oath or law, becuase every summer camp and on occasional campouts I had to confiscate "Anatomy Merit Badge" materials (if you know what I mean!) many times. I don't know if any of teh scouts in our troop were gay, and guess what, I would not have cared if I had known. I would have rewarded any scout for achieving the Eagle badge with my signature (gay, straight, black, white, god-fearing, athiest, etc. etc. etc.) becuase it WAS an achievement. The BSA is a private organization and can enforce any rules it wants, but I hope that some day the BSA will finally recognize that they are only hurting themselves as an organization and many, many scouts and prospective scouts by their biggoted practices. And to those 'enlightened' posters who equate homosezuality with pedophelia, I only have pity for your ignorance.

he knew he was gay, and gay is not part of Boy Scouts.

That's an interesting point. Did he know he was gay when he joined? Probably not in any definable way. In retrospect, most gay guys knew they were gay from childhood. But, only in retrospect. Many guys don't recognize (or accept) their sexuality until college or later. So, you're punishing him for joining the organization in good faith, only to deny him the product of his hard work because he has come to recognize who he is? Really makes a lot of sense.

Barry-NJ

I don't know a lot of gay people. The few that I do know seem much like many of my straight friends other than their sexual orientation. I know that I preferred the company of other young boys in my early age much over the company of girls. We played cowboys and Indians with sticks for guns and bows and arrows. We wrestled and fought one another to the tune of many scrapes and bruises. We built forts of snow blocks to engage in snowball fights.

The girls played with Barbie dolls. had tea parties and played dress-up. My friends and I had absolutely no interest in any of that. The few girls finally accepted in our midst must first prove themselves by being as tough as the rest of us.

Many of us did a 180 once the girls began to fill out. They suddenly peaked our interest and became our main focus. Buds were still fun to hang out with, but only if you didn't have a date with a girl. There are always exceptions to every rule. However, I doubt that many gay kids reached the point of sexual awareness before the rest of us. The six, seven and eight yr. old scouts had no idea they would later be attracted to members of their own sex.

That is what's so immoral about the policies of the B.S.A. The kid is already indoctrinated and devoted to the Boy Scouts long before he is aware of his sexual orientation. Suddenly, this cherished organization turns their back to him (to no fault of his own) when he needs them most. I find it indefensible.

Commonsense101

I about fell on my ass laughing with your comment (8.4)

Thank You :)

Ragtop why did you confiscate the " Anatomy Merit badge materials" (LOL) was it perhaps in had no place in your program? I have never seen where sex was an approved activity in scouts if it is ever involved it is wrong. Sexual preferance should not (nor need it) be an issue.

"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid." John Wayne

Your comment screams "LOSER".

I wouldn't let my kids near that organization.

redjoe, that's becasue you have no respect for your children, or yourself. The BSA is an orginazation that promotes Citizenship and is a VERY good group to belong to.

They make no beans about not wishing to promote homosexualtiy, and wish for those of the GLBT community to respect that... yet the ONLY thing you people wish to have is EVERYONE repect your liberal slant on life. Not everyone sees the world as you see it.

If the BSA wishes to keep homosexuality out of it's orginazation, who are you to decide what they should do?

Yes so many Eagle Scouts grow up to be losers. lol

LOL! good one :)

to the un-edjumacated it is!!

Uh-oh, not more 'Truth' ...

Or maybe we just pull the BSA out of the International Scouting Movement.

Yank their ability to use any and all symbols or names associated with Scouting. See them survive now.

Yep doug - TruthComesHere

uuummmm...allswell - The BSA would be able to stand on its own I think since the A stands for America. Also, since it is a private organization they can exclude those who don't follow their principles. If you were ever a scout then you would know the twelve laws. Those would be: Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean and Reverent.

Yep, that's right...REVERENT. So like it or not that is their rule for now. Perhaps the gay community should start their own scouting program instead of trying to change one that rejects their lifestyle on their organizations principles.

TruthComesHere - Perhaps the gay community should start their own scouting program instead of tryin to change one that rejects their lifestyle on their principles.

Just like black kids had to start their own troops, right?

REVERENT: honor or respect felt or shown. Don't see any conflict with the gay community to me.

uuummmm...allswell - The BSA would be able to stand on its own I think since the A stands for America.

Well, hope they like being the "B of A" then afterwards. Having watched the fallout from past name-disassociations, they will lose all of their credibility and prestige.

Yep, that's right...REVERENT. So like it or not that is their rule for now.

I'm an Agnostic Eagle Scout. Reverent means "respectful". Even if you take it to require a deity to respect, it does not require that deity to be the Christian one (and many Christians sects now do not condemn homosexuality anyway).

You really should learn when to stop talking.

You cannot be and Agnostic Eagle Scout... one of the tenants of Scouting is your belief in God... you sir, are a liar if you call yourself a Scout...

Umm...sadden..you need to look up the definition of Agnosticism as you seem to not understand what exactly it means.

You cannot be and Agnostic Eagle Scout... one of the tenants of Scouting is your belief in God... you sir, are a liar if you call yourself a Scout...

And if I met you, "sir", I'd shove the badge in your face. I was very adamant in my disbelief in any particular god concept, and I have been ever since: I did not swear on any god for my oath in the military, I will not bow my head for an invocation, and I will not let theists or atheists dictate my beliefs.

Considering the Founding Fathers were explicit in their addition of "freedom of religion" (which includes freedom from religion), I would have to say I'm more of a citizen than you're demonstrating yourself to be. As someone stated before, the purpose of Scouting is to create good citizens.

"It's fun to watch all the pro-gay post. Gays/Lesbians are the least "tolerant" group in today's society." HA! Says the guy who obviously has no tolerance for the gay community. And if your opinion is directed at the anger and frustruation expressed by these people every day, maybe it's because these are the most persecuted and vilified group of people in modern day history who in the 21st century are still fighting for basic rights - hell in some states you can be fired from your job for being gay - talk about archaic. You people are so typical - lots of opinions with no respect for your fellow mankind or knowledge of the fundamental problems these people face every day. Republican much?

I have no problems with G&L as long as they aren't trying to dictate my life or the policies of other private organizations/individuals. Like I said, G&Ls need to learn "tolerance" is a two way street. It's not "think as I do or you're intolerant" ...You're a perfect example.

And they have no problem with you as long as you aren't trying to dictate their life and the polices of other private organization/individuals.

Hey that's where you're wrong. I am very tolerant of you because I do think like you. I agree that they a private organization can do what they want - although I would disagree to be a part of such a racist, intollerant, hateful organization - but that's just me. Now on the topic of "private" organizations, the BSA needs to start acting like one. They can't have it both ways. They need to stop seeking government subsidies and embedding themselves in government establishments such as parks and military bases to fund and hold their programs at a reduced cost. Those are government institutations paid for by all of us. They can go get their money from Target or Halliburton and build their little camp fires in the woods but stay away from government funding.

Yes, tolerance IS a two-way street. But in the case of the G&L community all they ask is to be treated as everyone else. They aren't asking for you to become 'gay'. As far as I know there aren't any so-called therapists who will treat you and try to make you gay. They just want to be included in society as equals.

I'm really sick of the bigots claiming that the G&L community aren't 'tolerant'. Perhaps you should look up the meaning of the word. You seem to be confused. Or maybe you just don't want to admit that you're a bigot.

As for the young man in the story, I would bet my house he joined the Scouts long before he figured out he was gay and had earned quite a few badges by then. Why should he have to throw that out the window?

I'm getting pretty sick of the 'well, I thought

dontbefooled, expressing disagreement and displeasure over something is a far cry from dictating life and policies. Fore example, we pro-rights people are not lobbying for legislation to make the BSA accept gay people. We are merely stating our pleasure at the changing tide, and providing public pressure.

In contrast the anti-gay block tries to legislate discrimination.

The BSA does not recieve any public funding. As for the use of public land and resources, well, your right we should have access to those because, well, they're public.

This story boils down to some one who chose to ignore the rules and now is crying foul because he wants the rules changed after the fact.

dsb: Great point. These are kids. I would also conquer that he wasn't even aware of his sexuality when he joined at a young age, not to mention the fact that his parents most likely placed him in this organization to teach him skills and values. Are parents now suppose to take their little kids to a doctor and hook them up to a machine that calculates what their sexuality will be so they know what clubs their kids can and cannot join??? Give me a break - I'm not even going to go so far to call 'dontbefooled' a bigot - just a complete idiot will suffice.

“Critics of the Boy Scouts, like the American Civil Liberties Union, make one strong argument against the organization's private status. The Boy Scouts enjoys massive and unique tax-funded support from governments both local and federal. On the local level, for example, the city of San Diego was targeted because it allowed the Boy Scouts' headquarters to operate in a city-owned park for $1 per year and to use other city-owned facilities without any rent.

On the federal level, the Pentagon provided an estimated $6 to $8 million from 1997 to 2001 to assist a Boy Scouts Jamboree -- an event which is traditionally held on military bases.

Linda Hills of the ACLU aptly states, "The Boy Scouts can't have it both ways…If they truly are a private religious organization, free to engage in any form of discrimination they choose, then they are not entitled to a government subsidy."

The BSA is an organization for KIDS! They aren't swearing to anything sexual when they take the oath.

Both those examples are city or federal government decisions. If either the state or federal government decided not to lend support to the BSA, so be it.

If I'm willing to give you office space or money for free are you going to bitch about it or just take the office space &/or money. If I want to put limits or requirements on what you need to believe before I give you that office space or money: you have to decide if you still want either. I CANNOT force you as a private organization to make changes to your core values or beliefs; but I can deny you the office space/money then too if I so choose.

What most of the idiots on here seem to forget is this: The Boy Scouts of America are a PRIVATE organization. The GET NO state or Federal funding. As such they can set their own rules/regulations. If you don't like them DON'T JOIN. But if you do join, don't cry foul after the fact when you find out they do something that you don't like!

Dave-659903 - The Boy Scouts of America are a PRIVATE organization. The GET NO state or Federal funding.

Until a few years ago they did get some federal subsidies, and they may very well still get subsidies from state governments. However, the local government subsidies they still get are just as wrong as the federal ones they used to get.

To the extent that they get subsidized rent of any public facility, they should be forced to comply with non-discrimination laws.

They also still have a Congressional charter, and they still get explicit exemptions for their discrimination written into federal law on their behalf (ie, the 2005 education act).

The BSA is tax exempt, isn't it? And, contributions to it are tax deductible? I'd call those subsidies. Just on that basis alone, the Boy Scouts should be expected to conform to anti-discrimination laws.

Barry-NJ, skrekk, and Dave-659903 - An FYI if I may.

The BSA is a private organization. They are allowed under the Constitution of the United States to associate with whomever they want (or don't want). Like any other private group they are allowed to use government facilities (federal, state, local) providing they pay any fees or meet whatever scheduling requirements there are, etc.

You cannot ban them from government property just because gays are not allowed in their organization because...that is discrimination.

Discrimination is a two way street.

It would be no different than banning an all-female group from facility usage just because they don't allow men, or banning an all Swedish group because they don't allow Irish.

You also can't take away their tax-exempt status for basically the same reasons. Tax exempt status requirements do not have anything to do with discrimination laws.

The BSA does not receive tax dollars and therefore is not subject to discrimination laws.

The moral implications of their rules I'll leave to everyone else to discuss. From a legal point of view you three are incorrect.

Ah Barry churchs are tax exempt also are you going to make them accept gays too.

GS ... most churches, regardless of their position on homosexuality, don't prohibit gays from attending services or even from becoming members (that whole "love the sinner" stuff), so your analogy doesn't apply.

But, personally, I don't think that churches should be tax exempt except to the extent that they engage in legitimate charity on a non-discriminatory basis.

The BSA is a private organization. They are allowed under the Constitution of the United States to associate with whomever they want (or don't want).

But, the Constitution doesn't require that they be tax exempt.

Most churches? splitting hairs (but thanks for the spelling tip thought churchs looked wrong lol) I agree about tax exempt status for churches and I'll add charities too. "...no law respecting an establishment of religion,..."

Dontbefooled the BSA is a tax exempt industry, therefore in a way it does receive benefits in reduced rent, non taxed..oh yeah it doesn't get any assistance from the goverment...you're absolutely right.

Barry...what exactly is your point? Tax exempt status has nothing to do with discrimination laws either. If your organization fulfills the erquirements to be considered tax exempt, you are tax exempt.

If you want to clarify what you meant that would be great, because I am befuddled my your retort...

I'm ashamed of your son... as an Eagle Scout, I'm very proud of my accomplishments, both as as Scout and as a man. Your son is an embarrasment to Scouting... I hope he does turn it back it... one less shameful person in Scouting.

The Boy Scouts of America teach you to believe in God and be reverant to God. If those teachings are predicated on the belief that homosexuality is NOT part of it's agenda, then either leave the orginzation or follow those teachings. If the GLBT wishes to have an orginization that encludes it's membership, then so be it.

Your a pompous ass Sadden: If your looking for everyone to think as you do walk and talk as you, what the hell would be the point of calling us the United States and why would we even want a constitution.

As a boy scout myself & gay I might add.....I thought I was different when I was younger but didn't fully understand my sexual orientation until later. These are kids we are talking about here, sexuality in any form would be inappropriate as a talking point in any scouts, as would be teaching the bible.

God is used in a general term in the scouts, just as "in god we trust" on our money.

So how on earth do you tell a child no sorry you can't join you may be gay. The fact that this young man came to terms with himself should be enough to get him a badge. Most people spend their whole life denying who they are......You could be one of them.

Steve you were a little blunt with Sadden (but I agree). I also agree with

"These are kids we are talking about here, sexuality in any form would be inappropriate as a talking point in any scouts, as would be teaching the bible"

A child's sexual preference should never enter into scouting.

Sadden American 2012, YOU are an embarrasment.

The scouts taught you to be a bigot? Thank GOD/ Zeus/ or whatever fairy tale is out there I quit the scouts when I was 10.

@kaquino,

I don't argue for or against this Scout issue, pro-life/pro-choice and others simply because I don't have the wisdom and information sufficient to "judge," but I do have a problem with your logic--not with what you think, but the logical argument you presented.

Your comment is self contradictory. In your own words you are against the way others "think." No one has the right to pass judgment based on what they perceive to be what someone else thinks.

Tolerance is good and essential in many ways, but it is used far too often as a pretext to persecute others who do not have the same opinions and beliefs that fall into the "politically correct" category. It's happening on both sides of all the contemporary arguments and issues, and most of all on these internet wars.

Instead, let's base our opinion on something we can observe, instead of speculation. We can observe behavior. We cannot observe thoughts of another person. Period.

Also, the behavior in so-called "hate crimes" is terrible and should not be tolerated, but they should not have a legal basis of what a person thinks. This is why I am against the legal use of "hate" crime. Crime is behavior, not thoughts (other than mens rea, of course). The law is flawed in this instance.

That's bull, and you know it... you have all the same rights that I do, as a straight man.

You want special rights just for you!

What rights don't you have that I have??

Sadden American 2012 - What rights don't you have that I have??

The right to be exempt from estate tax if your legally married spouse dies, for one.

Speaking as a straight guy with a gay daughter, privileged and greedy bigots like you disgust me. Apparently you need special rights and privileges to get by and can't compete on a level playing field.

Those aren't rights. They are privileges for individuals that meet the requirements to obtain that particular license. Blind people can't get driver's licenses. Felons can't get a liquor license for a business (at least in my state). A marriage license is no different than any other license - if you meet the requirements and pay your fee, you are allowed to have the privileges associated with that license.

Gays have all the same rights as any other American. They do not have the same privileges...

Tim-874396 - Those aren't rights. They are privileges for individuals that meet the requirements to obtain that particular license.

Actually the relevant right is called "equal protection of the law", a concept that appears to be far over your head. In the case I mentioned the couple was legally married but denied the estate tax exemption because the deceased spouse was the wrong gender.

Gays have all the same rights as any other American. They do not have the same privileges...

It does sound like you bigots think you deserve special rights and privileges, and that you can't compete on a level playing field. Enjoy it while it lasts.......in a few short months you'll no longer have that special privilege.

No surprise that you bigots want some Americans to be 2nd-class citizens.

They were legally married in one of the states I assume, but they weren't allowed the estate tax exemption at the federal level (you didn't specify what level of government you are talking about)?

If my assumption above is correct, that doesn't have anything to do with equal protection under the law because state laws do not supercede federal ones.

As for me being a bigot - If it makes you feel better to call me names go ahead and do it. It's better to vent your stress than hold it in. But all I did with the rights/privileges comment is explain the difference between a right and a privilege. Marriage is not a right in the U.S. As far as the government is concerned it is a section of the tax code that provides certain benefits to those that meet the requirements of the license and pay the fees involved. The Supreme Court ruled that a license is a privilege years ago. That is all I was pointing out. How does that make be a bigot, skrekk?

Tim - did you forget loving v virginia ?? i'm pretty sure with that court case and a few others, they established that marriage is indeed a right as far as the government is concerned...

maybe look it up ?

That doesn't sound very tolerant or objective of you. You used the word "think" and what others think is none of your business.

You have a right to judge what someone does, and not what someone thinks. Period.

That's exactly how the BSA dealt with racism for many decades - they allowed the local troop to decide if it was whites-only.

That policy was just as screwed up and unethical as the one you advocate.

If boys shouldn't have to worry about the implications of having a gay teen in their troup, then gay teens in a troup should not have to worry about the homophobes in that troup.

Gay men do the same things in the bedroom that a majority of straight men do (or try to do) with their partners/wives. If it's a perversion in one home, it's a perversion in the other. No where in the Bible does it say "sex with another man is an abomination but it's ok to get some nasty back door action from the wife".

Granny, not to divert the discussion away from tolerance, but actually I think it does say something about not doing it "unnaturally" with one's wife--and my memory may be mistaken. It would take me a while to research that for you, if you're interested.

And you are correct that gays should not have to worry about bullying and other behavior of homophobes. Teens are a very, very cruel lot, mostly because they have not matured their central nervous system to fully understand empathy. As I recall, empathy should be fully developed by the age of 20...but again, my memory is past "mature." LOL

Hello? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the children's safety is priority here and that is the main reason homosexuals are not allowed in the Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts! Sexual orientation is huge when it comes to comfort and safety of children. The scouts are so serious about protecting children that at camps, a minor is only allowed to share the same tent with his father - no one else. Adults are not allowed in the same restrooms or showers either! Have your child molested and tell me that you are okay with it. I know because my child was molested by a homosexual (not with the scouts) and it is not okay with me! I want safety for my children. Try and understand thats what they want too...

Here are the facts and why they are banned from scouts. You make the decision from the raw data yourself...

How Much Child Molestation is Homosexual?

Do homosexuals disproportionately molest children? Gay activists vehemently deny it, yet the empirical evidence says otherwise. The key concept is proportionality. Probably a numerical majority of child molestations involve a male adult and a female child, but given the small fraction of homosexual practitioners, the number of homosexual molestations is disproportionate to the percentage of homosexuals. This briefing summarizes some of the key evidence.

Three Critical Facts

• Homosexuals comprise < 2% of adults
• 90+% of child molesters are male
• The Gay Report — 23% of gays reported sex with boys aged <16; 7% with boys aged <13

From Facts to Disproportionate Reality

• Human Rights Watch 2008 World Report — ~150 million girls, ~73 million boys “have experienced rape or other sexual violence”
• U.S., Canadian reports — girl/boy ratio also about 2:1
• 25-40% of molestations are thus same-sex, far in excess of the percentage of homosexuals

Homosexual Molestation in Positions of Authority

• ~43% of sex between teachers & pupils
• ~50% of sex between foster parents & foster children
• 21 group home sex scandals — 71% were same-sex

Sex With One’s Own Children

• Homosexual parents — 18%; Heterosexual parents — 0.6%

References:

• Sahil (2009) Cruel Numbers 2009
• Freund K, Watson RJ (1992) The proportions of heterosexual and homosexual pedophiles among sex offenders against children: an exploratory study. Journal of Sex & Marital Therapy 18:34-43
• Jay K & Young A (1979) The Gay Report. NY: Summit
• Cameron P (2007) Teacher-pupil sex, how much is homosexual? Empirical Journal Same-Sex Sexual Behavior;1:1-19 (on-line)
• Cameron P (2005) Child molestation by homosexual foster parents: Illinois, 1997-2002. Psychological Reports 96: 227-230
• Cameron P (2005) Are over a third of foster parent molestations homosexual? Psychological Reports 96:275-298
• Cameron P & Cameron K (1996) Homosexual parents. Adolescence 124, Winter, 757-776

What you have there, Jim, is not "raw data". It is homophobic malarkey. To put it as kindly as possible.

Your statistics seem dubious at best, especially the Gay Report, where the researchers mailed out 500,000 16-page surveys across the country and tabulated the 5400 responses they got (a response rate of 1%) and presented the results as being representative of all gays.

I note that you cut and pasted this post from the Family Research Institute, an organization classified as an anti-gay hate group by the South Poverty Law Center. The FRI is run by a Paul Cameron, who has been thrown out of the American Psychological Association for ethics violations, and condemned by the American Sociological Association for "consistent misrepresentation of sociological research on sexuality." The man is obsessed with proving gays are all pedophiles, and does not intend to let a little thing like reality stop him...

It doesn't help that 90% of male-male sexual child abuse is committed by married heterosexual men.

Here's more facts for ya:

Other researchers have taken different approaches, but have similarly failed to find a connection between homosexuality and child molestation. Dr. Carole Jenny and her colleagues reviewed 352 medical charts, representing all of the sexually abused children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children's hospital during a one-year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992). The molester was a gay or lesbian adult in fewer than 1% in which an adult molester could be identified – only 2 of the 269 cases (Jenny et al., 1994).

And in regards to the difference between sexual attraction to mature adults vs children:

"Findings indicate that homosexual males who preferred mature partners responded no more to male children than heterosexual males who preferred mature partners responded to female children."

By the above and your statements, obviously all heterosexual men must be pedophiles of female children, right? And hey, there are a lot more heterosexual males than homosexual ones...that makes them more of a risk, right?

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

It's actually not the first big crack given that several other major troops like the Northern Star Council in the Minneapolis area have publicly rejected the BSA's bigoted policies.

http://www.startribune.com/local/west/162817346.html

Anyone who disagrees with BSA policy will be asked to leave I'm willing to bet. Maybe that is a crack, and maybe it isn't. But with millions of scouts I don't know that the BSA is ready to come crumbling down...

Tim, the real problem for the elderly bigots who run the BSA is that most of those young scouts don't support that bigotry.

That may very well be skrekk. I haven't seen a poll or survey of young scouts that affirms or refutes your claim, but if you want to make it so be it...

I explained at length why this line of thinking is wrong Patrick. Please see post 14.14 for the details of why. Peace.

Tim

Your explanation isn't worth a pile of dog crap.

BTW I think Lassie is calling you

You may not think it is worth a pile of dog crap, but it is entirely accurate and in line with the law. You don't have to take my word for it. Go ask any attorney and they will tell you the same thing...

Well that would be my oldest son....an attorney........yup you're full of sh*t

Timmy....is that Lassie I hear calling you?

I hear an ambulance. Tell you son to start chasing.

Pat, you're making personal attacks with the Lassie comments. No matter the side, please refrain.