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Sandy Huffaker / AP file
Jeff Hall holds a neo-Nazi flag while standing at Sycamore Highlands Park near his home in Riverside, Calif., on Oct. 22, 2010. Hall's 10-year-old son is accused of murdering his father, a 32-year-old plumber, at their home.
Attorneys finished their closing arguments Wednesday morning in the case of a 12-year-old boy who admitted to shooting and killing his father -- a leader in the National Socialist Movement -- as the Southern California man slept on the family's couch in May 2011.
The Riverside boy, 10 at the time of the shooting, faces a murder charge that the defense argued Wednesday should be downgraded to a voluntary manslaughter charge. Defense attorneys claimed domestic violence, child abuse and violent video games "neurologically damaged" the boy and programmed him to be violent.
Attorney Matthew Hardy told the court the boy was trying to protect his family from his father, Jeffrey Hall -- the regional director of a neo-Nazi organization. He claimed the boy's mother encouraged him to kill the father.
"(The boy) saw what seemed to be a simple solution to his problems," Hardy said. "Stop the violence.
"He certainly did not know the wrongfulness of his actions."
The boy did not testify on the stand during the trial, which began in October. A recorded interview with a detective was shown in court.
If found responsible for Hall's death, the boy could remain in juvenile custody until his early 20s.
Prosecutors, who called the shooting a "case that shocks the conscience," claimed the slaying was not related to the father's neo-Nazi beliefs.
During the trial, prosecutors attempted to portray the boy as having a history that led to "cold, calculated murder." The boy was kicked out of as many as nine elementary schools for bad behavior, prosecutors said.
He allegedly stabbed a teacher with a pencil once and choked another with a telephone cord.
"It's time for (the boy) to learn that the legal system works," said Deputy District Attorney Michael Soccio, referring to the past cases. "It is beyond obviously clear that (the boy) knew what he was doing was wrong at the time of the killing.
"(He) is talked about almost as if he's an idiot. That may be a good defense in court, but it's just not true."
The boy's sister testified during the trial that the boy told her she planned to kill the father. Prosecutors played an audio recording on which the boy's sister said, "I thought he would hit him in the stomach."
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2 more defective humans off the streets.
This "KID" will never be O K .
He will kill again. But he will be free when he is 20.
With any luck some other punk will shank him so he never gets out to kill again.
Damaged goods.
MC Gusto, You need to lay off the cheap horror films. What do you mean when say "KID?" Please tell me you also have a crystal ball that knows what this child will do in 8 years. Will there likely be some problems? Yeah, probably. If he's a violent kid like you claim, it's probably a result of his dad who sounds like a real model citizen. I don't blame the video games either, sounds like the lawyer is reaching too far. But to say this kid doesn't deserve a chance is ridiculous. Maybe his dad should have been doing a better job teaching him instead of preaching neo-nazi BS.
Like I claim,,,,,,,,, ???
He tried to strangle his teacher with a phone cord.
He stabbed another with a pencil.
He killed his father as he slept.
He was kicked out of 9 schools.
Looks like I just did what usually bugs the hell out of me, which is commenting without reading the whole article. Been a long day and I got sick of reading so I missed that part, so I appologize. Anyway, I agree that in all likelihood this kid will never be normal. Unfortunately, a LOT of time and money will now be focused on rehabilitating him and who knows if that will work.
How come no one is wondering what kind of upbringing this kid had? It sounds like the parents had not been doing their job. My only question is who or what put these kind of ideas in that 10 year old kids head? This kind of stuff doesn't happen overnight
Thanks One-Two BBQ.
No harm, no foul.
With parents like that.....is it any wonder????
And what happens to the mother who encouraged him or the sister who knew?
Dr Phil....Where are you?
In more than two decades working with youth in crisis, who had emotional, mental issues, problems that got them in trouble legally, where I worked with them as they kept coming through, as we tried to keep them from ending up in the jail or prison system, you learn eventually that there are some children, you just can't "fix." It doesn't matter how much you care, invest time, compassion, resources. A child who starts even as young as four or five, who has gone through certain events because of abusive parents, which leaves them violent, antisocial, can end up being just too broken by that age.
There are certain needs and requirements that every baby needs, at certain critical stages following birth. Emotional needs, physical and mental, which if they don't get, can create literally, life long problems. This wasn't really understood by the medical community for a long time. Only through happenstance were some profound discoveries made, which has led to much improvement in the care and treatment of all newborns.
Unfortunately for this boy, based on reports, it sounds like he has already reached some very critical stages in the development of his core personality. With a great deal of anger thrown in for good measure.Reactive Attachment Disorder may be something he is dealing with.
At any rate, no child at age ten is capable of really comprehending the ramifications of killing another human being, let alone committing Patricide. Their brain hasn't even started to develop connections with the frontal lobe, which allows for the comprehension of logic and reasoning.So he literally is unable to comprehend what he has done.Voluntary manslauder should be what he gets.Regardless how much others say he knew he was going to do this.
It is like saying a ten year old boy was planning on jumping off a building because he wanted to be superman, only using a sheet for a cape. Then does so.If the boy ends up with broken legs and unable to walk, do we blame him for not knowing what would happen? Of course not.Even if he kept jumping off chairs, tables and his bedroom furniture.
In the end, his father is ultimately to blame to some extent. For he is the one who needed to set the example, get his son help if he needed it.Think about his child above his own needs. That is the role of a parent. His mother also played a role, which I am sure we are not hearing about.I suspect there is some responsibility on her part that needs to be taken in account. Children come into this world, totally dependent upon their parents.But if those parents abuse them, violate that trust, harm that child and push them to the limits, then that child will end up reacting. There will be consequences.
People can be driven to do things normally against their nature when hurt constantly. Even permanently altered to adapt and survive. There will still be some accountability.We must remember,children are always watching us as adults, learning from our examples, which speak far louder than words so often.Though words can be so much crueler than any physical pain. I do wish the best for this child.That he get the help he so obviously needs and a new start towards a more brighter life.
if ever karma was a bitch...
Killing to stop violence is kinda like screwing to end the population problem.
"Whatcha doin' with that lawn mower blade, Karl?"
"I aim to kill you with it."
Really? Wow... Shove a wiffle ball bat up my arse and call me Susan!!!
Let me guess, it was Call of Duty that taught him how to shoot?
Windancersong
I wonder if that would include bonding with its mother for more than six weeks before it is dropped off with strangers and she goes back to work?
Look no further for the epidemic of so-called autism in this country.
Not really. If someone had killed Hitler early on, many lives would have been saved.
@ one-two-bbq
What bothers me even more about the fact that you did not read the article is that the 5 morons who voted for you also didn't bother to read the article either before they voted. Kind of explains how we ended up with obummer for a second term. I would laugh it it wasn't so sad and true
@davefromdanapointca Now how did the President get into this conversation? Get over your hatred of this man. He won 51 to 47%! That was not a squeaker. We who voted for him obviously knew who we were voting for the FIRST time & put him in again. Deal with it!
And I am sure Dave that the dad voted for Obama...
Dave, you're an emotional adolescent. I hope you don't own a gun.
Despite your off-topic comment, I had to reply: I quit work after my son's birth and stayed home for nine years with my son, and he's autistic. Your theory is blown out of the water.
Now, regarding this story: The father reaped what he sowed.
I see special Ed Burke gave bbq a thumbs up as well. My comment and point verified.
Posted by: denver bill 2
So, what you are saying is that you are opposed to guns and to Colorado's "Make My Day" law too???
Why is it when an adult female rape victim manages to kill their attacker they are regarded as some kind of folk hero, and yet when some kid who has suffered years of daily violent emotional, physical, and sexual abuse finally stands-up for themselves, the State Attorney always wants to call it first degree murder?
Like Windancersong, I too worked with victims of childhood abuse for several years, both adult and adolescent victims, both later in life and during ongoing abuse too. My involvement was through an online crisis support group rather than through the criminal justice system. I will admit that no treatment program is 100% effective, but that most victims of severe child victimization can enjoy a much better and much more productive adult life if we are willing to give them the opportunity.
Depending on the severity of this boy's victimization it might take 3-5 years of twice-weekly therapy to substantially repair most of the damage that he has suffered. Taking him away from society will also damage and harden him as doing so will take him away from normal socialization and the chance of meeting positive role models. This isn't a case of right versus wrong as this boy has already been wronged repeatedly, and far too many of us are guilty of failing to empathize with the boy as a victim.
Conservatives always want to point to an ability to know right from wrong, which is a Christian value and only one of several issues involved with criminal juvenile behavior. Juveniles also lack an adult ability to reason, which is why we don't allow them to drive cars or own guns, and they also lack the ability to judge the chance of getting caught from an adult perspective too. Many juveniles especially those who have suffered violent victimization lack adult empathy and juveniles also are not as easily physically injured as adults are either. How many times did you fall off your bike as a kid and walk it off? What would happen at the age of 50 taking one of those same falls, a trip to the ER?
Frankly, kids are not adults, and they have no developmental chance of possessing an adult sense of "right and wrong" either. Almost all young people who are involved in violent criminal behavior are excellent prospects for recovery. No program is 100% effective, yet. But the Bible does say to turn the other cheek too.
I could see the development of an intermediate judicial system to deal with older violent juveniles and first-time violent young adults in order to satisfy the seeming need of some of us to punish offenders, but given my experience in the crisis and violent victimization support community, I can not possibly deny any young person another chance, and most-certainly not a kind that has suffered a violent and abusive upbringing.
Tell you what, why not more-harshly deal with those young people who re-offend following an extensive treatment program rather than deny all young offenders as good a chance as is possible to enjoy recovery and a chance at a much more productive life? There is a 90% chance that the recovery community can repair what is wrong with this kid in 5 years time. Should we deny him the chance because of that 10% chance that our community will be unsuccessful in turning his life substantially around?
Dr. Phil is as screwed up as anyone. The dude is a drug addict and divorced.
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The boy should be executed. He murdered, and knew what he was doing. We can't ever allow him back on the streets to kill again, so either we execute him, or he will cost us millions of dollars to keep incarcerated for the next 90 years. Just fry the little son of a bitch.
Sorry rocky, but execution costs way more than life sentences. You don't sentence someone to death and do it the same week.This has only been stated hundreds of times in every type of medium there is.
Socialist shouldn't be killed just because they are socialist.
I ain't buying the video game argument.
Was any physical abuse documenedt by social workers, police or teachers?
I NEVER buy the video game argument, or the desperate effort to lay blame on music, movies or television for what a kid does. I watched re-runs of "The Monkees" growing up, but that didn't turn me into a retro-hippie with bell bottoms in my closet and flower tattoos on my butt. To that effect, Denis Leary had a joke: "Can I sue Dan Fogelberg for making me into a p*s*y in the mid-'70s?"
But oh, we do so love to make people the victims of society these days! We blame fast food and sodas for jumping down our throats. We blame (and sue) cigarette manufacturers and beer companies for forcing their evils on us. There is never any personal accountability laid out, though. Somewhere along the lines, we got the idea that it's okay to blame others if we are obese, or abusive, or whatever our individual ills are... and now we have the twisted notion that society owes us, that we have the right to sue for the things we do and get money out of someone else.
Huh, MCG? Socialist does not equal fascist. Far right-wing does equal fascist. Try taking a history course.
Ignorati seem intent on misunderstanding that the German National Socialist Party was not at all socialist, but fascist, a far right infection of nationalism, racism, bigotry, corporatism, and rage against perceived outsiders.
Can a 10 year old turn it around in the absence of the venom that was his farther? Maybe. I would predict that he will forever seek out ultra-radical belief systems in the absence of his father. FOX NEWS can provide him with all the hatred and rage he might seek.
Hey, Bill
Once you reach the extremes, it really doesn't matter about the ideology. Hitler=Stalein=Mao. etc.
So was the boy just 'born bad' or maybe that kind & loving place he grew-up had a little influence in his behavior. Kid did the world a favor taking daddy out of the gene pool
No, no, no. Didn't this attorney get the memo? It had to be the guns fault! It's always the gun's fault and never the person pulling the trigger! <sarc>
Was it the video games or living with a socialist that drove him mad?
When did Socialism" become a dirty word?
It was at least partially his dad's fault for being an irresponsible gun owner, as any time that a gun owner's 10 year old get's ahold of one of his parent's guns and shoots someone with it, the reason is because of irresponsible gun storage practices by the gun owner, period, no if's, and's, or but's.
I'd say in the last century when over 100,000,000 people died at the hands of socialists mainly in China and in Russia.
Just curious what evidence they have of child abuse. Did any other sibling vouch for that? It certainly would make a difference. Something made this 10 year old behave so badly.
NStiz -
I think there are just some "bad seeds." My exe's sister is a case in point. One of five kids, she was a junkie, prostitute, thief, assault (including with a deadly weapon), fraud ,forger, etc . . .
Same parents (both in the home), and the others had NO criminal issues.
Mpa, because a group of kids have the same parents doesn't mean they get the same upbringing. We had a similar situation in my house. We were four but only my oldest brother became a criminal but he did not have the same upbringing I had. He was the oldest, he saw more than I did in my parents early life. More was expected out of him and when he started to revel, my father committed the horrible mistake of sending him to my aunts house in PR where he was exposed to drugs and crime.
It is entirely possible that your ex-niece was a victim of abuse or a victim of sexual assault outside of her parent's house too, as her symptoms are consistent with suffering such victimization. All too often many of us who do not know enough about the recovery issues involved in childhood abuse and/or childhood sexual victimization fail to see the victim's symptoms as obvious signs of distress, and we try to shame the victim for their symptoms/problems which further exacerbates their isolation. There have been plenty of cases over time where loving parents favor one child over siblings and/or unfairly ostracize one child too, and I would hope that the young lady in question has not suffered that form of abuse too.
While I worked with male victims of childhood victimization at male survivor.org, there are plenty of resources available to female victims too. See if you can get your former niece to take a look at what is available at http://www.rainn.org/
Please also be aware that there is no such thing as an overnight cure, and the road to recovery is especially difficult if a young person does not have the support of their family and friends too.
"This father and son thing had to come to an end" . What a life the boy had. How can you possibly find him "guilty"? What you know at that age is largely what others have put into your head. Your dad and mum are like gods. He stopped believing.
How about they find him guilty because,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He did it.
Well MC, that is open to interpretation. He may have actually pulled the trigger, now the prosecution needed to prove that he had the intent and that he understood the consequences of his actions. Blaming violence on a video game is idiotic, because IMO it deflects the blame from the family (Standup said it better than me before). But it is also true that you need to find out where that violence is coming from. How come the parents did nothing (or at least we don't know that part) when the child was kicked out of 9 different schools. And how the system (because the state should have been involved) let this child choke someone with a phone cord or stab a teacher with a pencil?
Early on you posted that they should toss this kid away like the old Greeks used to do with damaged goods.' So, it is your idea to dispose like that of another human being when it does not comply to the rules of society? What is going to happen when they downgrade the rules and both you and I fall below the line?
Like father Like son huh?
Children learn more from your actions then your words.
Did the father kill some one?
I must have skipped over that part.
Which paragraph was it in?
Murder isn't the only thing worth an execution, in my book. For instance... even if the woman in India had survived the horrendous, murderous assault, any involved should end up dangling, and the cowardly, useless, complicit police, straight to the top, should be fired, indicted, stripped of retirement and barred from the force for life, and serve some serious prison time.
I feel sorry for the family. First they lose their Father now the kid is going to go to jail. They seem like such a well adjusted group to begin with.
AFU, for sure.
They should lock this guy up to protect society. How he got to this point is less important. He is obviously dangerous.
What would happen happy when society lowers the requirements and both you and I fall under the line?
Geez, justice, there will plenty more to take your place when that happens. You should maybe change your name to "freepassforall."
PS - would you take the kid into your home?
The apple doesn't fall far from the tree
Sounds to me like Daddy might have gotten what he deserved. Thanks, kid... too bad you didn't get the whole gang.
Nobody deserves to be killed for their beliefs. There is no evidence that the father committed any sort of crime.
Joe, I don't think the child killed him for his beliefs - - the article mentions domestic violence & child abuse. I think that is what bram-1 was referring to as Dad getting what he deserved.
hockeymom -
Then what "gang" was he referring to? You think he was talking about the family and not the neo-nazis?
psychological abuse from his father and likely physical abuse from someone with a neo nazi mindset is enough for me to excuse this boy. Can you blame him? Look what kind of rotten scum "raised" him.
Wait! Killing Nazis is illegal?
A neo nazi raised a violent kid? That's a shocker.
Sounds like the boy did society a favor. US = down one crazy extremist.
I can't say I feel bad for the "father" at all. I understand why the boy did it. These kinds of people like to teach their children violence early. I watched a documentary about Neo Nazis recently and one man put a piglet in the middle of the field and told his 3 children (ages 10 and younger, one as young as like 3 years old) that the piglet represents minorities, and it must be beaten to death. The children, being desensitized to violence, chased the piglet through the field and beat and whipped it to death with rocks and sticks. It was deeply disturbed and very outraged. The children were laughing while being to death the little pig and then the "father" (if that's what you can call the piece of s***) was telling them how they make him so proud. It was sick. This is the kind of people they are. While I never agree with killing another human being, I just can't say I feel this kid should feel guilty. He was raised by evil people and he didn't kill his dad to be like him, he killed him to get away from him and to get away from his abuse. I know if I had a neo nazi for a father, I would want to kill him. I don't know if I would, but I would want to. He doesn't need prison time. He needs counseling and nurturing he never had throughout his life. He was robbed of a life worth living. Now he needs to heal. He should have been on social services' radar from the moment he was born and he should have been taken away and put with parents who would have raised him right.
.
Child abuse, domestic violence - sounds like this kid had a charming home life. I'd say he took out his anger/rage/intolerance on the right target. I would vote to reduce his charge to voluntary manslaughter.
Too bad breeding doesn't require a license
the kid is a Neo Nazi to . put him away for good.
Umm...what?
I saw that, too. It is so common on NBC I didn't bother to comment. Proof-reading is passe.
Seems to me like he found the Final Solution to the Neo-Nazi Question.
I bet he never thought the monster he was raising would turn on him..
the father got what he deserves--he was an evil, sick person-1 less pce of s*** out there.
he really screwed up his son big time , i pray the boy gets real mental help so he might have a normal life one day
jail is not the answer for the boy, lots of therapy is
Reading the story it sounds like the kid was growing up in a violent atmosphere. He may have been abused by both parents and controlled by the mother. A kid under those conditions would lash out against anybody. What's more, if the kid complained in school about being abused and was ignored, he would tend to be even more rebellious but we don't know about that.
There was a similar case, maybe 20 years ago, of a couple of kids who killed their abusive father. Nobody listened to their complains, so they used the techniques they learned from their father. I believe they are still in jail because our society doesn't seem to see that as self defence.
To Wolfe-1579073....if the Jews would have had guns...Hitler would not have existed for long...but...he took them away...then he commited his crimes. Obummer wants to take our firearms away. I wonder why?