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Subscribe to RSSSubway trains in New York are entering stations more slowly because of a union safety directive made in the wake of deaths of two passengers pushed onto the tracks.
The city’s transit workers union put out advisory signs instructing drivers to take greater caution, but the MTA says the move throws off subway schedules and is counterproductive to straphanger safety.
The union says having trains enter stations more slowly helps train operators stop if someone suddenly jumps or gets pushed onto the tracks.
According to the union, the normal speed for trains to enter the station is 30 or 40 miles per hour. But after the union released advisories over the weekend, trains are entering stations closer to 10 miles per hour.
Read more stories at NBCNewYork.com
The safety initiative comes in the wake of two recent incidents - one at 49th Street, another in Queens - in which people were killed by trains after being pushed onto the tracks.
"They should come in slowly, at least tap on the brakes and ease their way in," said one straphanger. "Coming into the station, it's safety first."
But the MTA doesn't approve of the slowdown, saying it throws off the existing schedules and that there are other ways to make the system safer.
"Some of the actions they are recommending, if implemented, could result in even more hazardous conditions due to overcrowding on platforms and on board trains," an MTA spokesman said in a statement.
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Then the train can hit them at a slower speed. Great. How about railings.
Perfect union solution: Instead of lobbying for safety railings on the platforms, slow the trains down so that drivers and conductors get more hours.
Railings wouldn't help. This isn't a ride at Disney world. There would either need to be gaps in the railings for the door or there would need to be gates that open when the trains arrive. If there are gaps, people will be forced to crowd around the gaps and can still be pushed through. If there are gates, well, can you imaging the nightmare that would entail? Gates not opening, gates not closing, opening and closing at the wrong times, having to line the cars up with the gates exactly right. Railings are a solution proposed by someone who has never ridden a subway.
Now, in the DC subway there is an area of refuge under the platform on the track side. Not sure why this isn't standard, but that would be a more logical solution. It doesn't have to be more than about two feet deep, just enough to squeeze yourself in. And if the train has slowed down, it would give you enough time to slide in.
They aren't talking about slowing the trains between stations, they are talking about the 30 seconds it takes to pull into the station. You anti-union nuts are just making fools of yourselves.
If pushed over a railing, then it would be even harder to climb out in a timely fashion. If your thinking railings, I think the appropriate thing would actually be 10 ft fences. But then there would be the issue of always having to stop these huge trains in the exact perfect spot for openings to get on and off the train.
Not to mention what it would cost to do this. Everyone's tickets would double. Railings and fencing simply is not practical.
Let's pass a law that makes it illegal to push someone on the tracks.
MDrn... could not have said it any better. Some of these people see the word union and automatically all is going to hell.
Love how Denver Bill just made an azz of himself talking about something he clearly has no clue about!
Let's pass a law that unions can't pretend to regulate anything. Unbelievable how much power unions still have.
Haven't ridden one, so I can't weigh in on railings, although it sounds logical on the surface. As far as throwing off the schedules, I can't be the only one who's thinking, then just adjust the schedules. It can't add that much more time and what the union is doing also seems sensible until a better solution is found.
And how is that slower speed going to help someone who suddenly got pushed onto the tracks? They will still die and it will get millions of people longer to get to work. Just another 'feel-good' nonsense this country is famous for.
The MTA has done NOTHING, a union comes up with a sound logical idea that would add a couple of minutes to a trip but would be effective and can be implemented immediately. Right away all the anti union, anti workers rights dirt bags jump on them for having a good idea and taking action. So they will have to adjust the schedules a little, so what, nothing else is being done, or is there a big lucrative multi billion contract in the works to be awarded to one of Bloomberg's big corp buddies that doesn't like cheap common sense solutions.
It wont help to get out of the way, it will enable the train to be stopped a lot sooner, likely not running someone over, whats the stopping distance of a train moving at 40 mph as opposed to 10 mph. Basic physics, crack a book. Here's a little experiment, drive your car at 40 mph into a brick wall hit the brakes 20 feet from the wall and then do it at 10 mph and see how much faster you can stop at 10mph. DOH
It all depends WHERE in relation to the moving train the person is pushed onto tracks. Most time they do it right in front of the train. DOH to you my friend.
If it will take 5 times longer for a train to pull into the station (and these stations have very long platforms) the commute will take much longer, costing the people lots of time wasted for nothing.
You can't protect people from random acts of violence. Never did, never will.
@Max:
You slept through 3rd-grade math, didn't you? If the train is entering the station at 10MPH instead of the current 30MPH, then they'd be able to actually stop the train before hitting the person that was pushed onto the tracks. Sure, it's not a guarantee, but it certainly does increase the chance that the person pushed will survive the incident.
As for adjusting the schedules, they could compensate for the extra few seconds per stop, by slightly increasing the transit speed between stations, by no more than 2MPH. Or, if that isn't safe, then they could just adjust the schedules to compensate.
If I recall the 1st man pushed had enough time that he was trying to get out and in the 100 pictures that the photographer took to "try warn the train" there was a fair amount of distance, he was not pushed right in front of the train. Had the train been going 10 mph it would have had a lot more time and distance to stop in and would likely have stopped in time. From your previous posts I expected a moronic response like this from you, that's 2 DOH's for you, go back to 3rd grade and go back to sleep
It will take a lot longer than a few seconds extra travel time to reduce station entry speed from 30 mph to 10 mph. You will have to start applying brakes a lot sooner, and for much longer period of travel time. Multiply that by a number of stations and the number of people using the subway system and you will see how much time the public will lose in this misguided attempt to prevent random acts of violence.
According to Wikipedia about 5.25 million people ride the NYC subway every weekday.
If each of them gets delayed by 5 minutes due to the new speed, that is 437,500 hours lost per day.
At an average rate of $10/hour (which is low), that equals a time cost of $1,093,750,000 per year (only counting workdays, which I pegged at 250/year).
That is, conservatively, $1.1 billion dollars worth of people's time wasted, per year.
Scuba, your reasoning would be valid if people were paid to ride the subway. Spending 3 extra minutes on the subway every day would probably just mean 3 less minutes watching TV. Sounds like a reasonable tradeoff for increased safety.
You wouldn't multiply it by number of riders, you would multiply it by number of stops, once stopped loading and unloading time would be a constant. I see 7thgrade word problems are not your strong point, either that or a lousy attempt to try skew the numbers to fit your anti union argument. FAIL either way.
The same people that push all these right wing, anti union, anti protection agency, anti science, wild conspiracy theories, not that the far left is any better, but it's easy to see why they are so gullible.
Truth,
Have you ever heard the expression, "Time equals money"? Just because someone isn't being paid for their time, doesn't mean their time doesn't have value.
How much would I have to pay you to give up an hour of sleep on a weekend? Or an hour sitting with your family? Or an hour doing whatever your favorite activity is? I bet it's more that $10.
Antistupidity,
Why wouldn't you multiply it by the number of riders? If 10 people have 5 minutes wasted each, isn't that 50 total minutes wasted?
I took the number of stops into account when I said each rider would be delayed by 5 minutes on average. I figured it normally take about 30 seconds for a train to enter a station, and it would take 4 times longer if the train was moving 4 times slower. That added an additional 1:30 delay per person, per stop. I figured the average person rides the train for 3 or 4 stops, so I settled on a total delay of 5 minutes.
Wow what twisted logic, the total travel time is what would be lost, everyone would have to take an extra 5 minutes to get where they were going on time, by your argument, we shouldn't have traffic lights to enable a safe commute by car either. You must really worship corporate manipulation.
Antistupidity,
Why the vitrol? I never even said I was against the plan. All I did was point out the true economic cost of the proposed changes.
And the traffic lights argument is a bad one. Getting rid of traffic lights would increase travel time because people would have to stop at every intersection or risk getting into car crashes.
P.S. You never explained why I shouldn't have multiplied the delay time by the number of riders.
Scubasteve58001
You would multiply it by the time because there would be no productivity loss, no employer would tolerate a worker being 5 minutes late and leaving 5 minutes early every day. The time would come out of personal time, therefore there would be no productivity loss. It would mean 10 minutes less tv or internet time each day, not really a loss, most of us spend too much time in front of either screen every day. 10 minutes less tv or internet multiplied by number of riders each day would save X amount of personal electricity use per year, thereby creating an energy savings, some of this may be offset if any extra energy is used by the trains coming in to the station slower. So maybe the energy would be a wash but I doubt it.
I am sick of everything being boiled down to money, our whole lives revolve around this rat race while the joy of life passes us by, all for paper. The corporations have manipulated individuals to wrap their lives around corporate profits. The top people in the corporations live lavish life's while the vast majority struggle to pay for food and shelter, with little to no luxury, I remember when it was different, I remember having personal time. I remember having labor day off, I remember Thanksgiving being a family day, not a time to rush down a meal to go to sales, and people being forced to come in to work for a sale at midnight on thanksgiving, when this may be one of the few times that extended family got some time together. Now that is lost to corporate greed, and we just allow ourselves to be treated like this and start to think this is normal.
I see people attacking unions that are fighting for individual and family rights because they are so brainwashed by corporate greed. Yes there are corrupt unions but the answer is not to attack and get rid of unions, it is to clean up the mess so there are unions fighting for the individual workers rights and safety, so that there is a successful middle class again. Without it the America we know is doomed to be a corporate oligarchy and we will lose the great country we have become, it is already slipping away. It has been engineered, and we are being sucked right into it without even realizing it.
The vitriol is not personal, it is disgust at what I am seeing in general.
Anti,
It's not productivity loss that I was talking about, it was time lost. Just because you are not getting physical dollar bills for your time, doesn't mean that your time has no value.
Think of it this way, how much would I have to pay you to sit on the subway for an hour of your spare time? You wouldn't do it for free. You (probably) wouldn't do it for $1. You might consider it for $10. And you'd almost certainly do it for $100. You can determine the value of time by finding the lowest amount of money that someone would accept for a given amount of time.
And it's not that everything boils down to money, it's that money is a universally understood concept that is useful for comparing things. How do you compare apples and oranges? Well, if someone will pay $3 for an apple or $4 for an orange, than 4 apples = 3 oranges (assuming no diminishing values).
I guess I could have said that it would cost. 110,000,000 man hours/year, but people have an easier time visualizing $1.1 billion dollars than 110 million hours
Scuba
No matter how you phrase it you keep coming back to dollars and costs, that is my point exactly our whole mindset is on dollars and costs, while they are tangible they are abstract. They only have a monetary value because we as a society have assigned it a monetary value. That have become the only value that is counted anymore.
Anti,
Ok. But if you don't like inches, that doesn't mean that things don't have length. And just because you don't like that society has settled on a dollar to measure costs, doesn't mean things don't have costs. In this case, the economic cost of the proposed changes would be $1.1 billion/year in lost time. Nothing you said has countered that number.
I'm not trying to counter that number, it is the importance put on that number that I object to, it is a measure that cannot be compared, how do you compare it to the value of family's being together on Thanksgiving. The family bond and values built into children and their future actions. These values are being replaced by the value of money, going out to buy stuff or to work to sell stuff and in some cases accumulate stuff by any means necessary, sometimes criminal. These are not comparable values, safety vs money are not comparable values except in lawsuit award. The emphasis being put on the monetary value above all else is the problem, it is already contributing heavily to the breakdown of our society. While the forefathers were wealthy men, they put the value of the constitution on freedom and the pursuit, of life, liberty, and happiness not the pursuit of money or money above all else.
You weren't arguing against that number? Then what do you call:
Post 1.17:
Post 1.21:
and Post 1.23:
And to answer your question about Thanksgiving, you would offer a person increasing amounts of money to not spend Thanksgiving with their family. The value they place on spending Thanksgiving with family would be the lowest dollar value they would accept not to spend Thanksgiving with their family.
I fail to see how using the dollar as a unit of measurement is leading to the downfall of society.
It's not like they have an option not to work if scheduled on thanksgiving, I worked at one of the big boxes and black Friday everyone worked, no ifs ands or buts. God help you if you called out sick, you would get fired, not for that, they would find another reason, I am in Florida, a right to work state, regardless of what they say on the news and what they say about paying extra is promotional bs.
As far as using the dollar as a unit of measurement, that is what I was arguing, you either fail to understand my point, or I can't communicate it sufficiently, either way I am not debating it any further.
Not good enough. These trains need to be banned NOW!
Blood is on the hands of the subway authority!
You speak of banning trains, but trains were made for transportation, whereas pushes were specifically created to injure, annoy, or kill as many people as possible. We need to get serious about a pushing ban otherwise the violence will never stop.
I will support your pushing ban if you support my murder ban.
"If we only save one life, then it will have been worth it."
Vice President Joe Biden
Ban pushing.
Thats a nice easy way to help deal with the issue. Good for the union. Its not a perfect solution, but it certainly is a start. Getting people to stand back from the edge would probably be a good idea too. They should paint lines on the platform to remind people to stay back. Another simple and inexpensive way to make things safer.
That's the point of the big yellow section at the edge of the platform. However, even if you stand back, someone can push you onto the tracks if they want to. It's a simple matter of force plus the element of surprise.
Good ide slow down before stop but from 30 to 10 mph ? is to much ! ho is the owner of the trauns the MTA or the Union, who pay the personel, MRA or the Union ? so Ho is the Boss the MTA or the Union ?
baco78, you make a legitimate point. There is unity of command issue involved. A man cannot serve two masters and all that. The reality is that the Transit Authority is the boss. The union has an advisory role in operations. The headline "Union orders . . ." is misleading at best. The way the story reads, the union is advising slower speeds, as they may, not ordering them, which they may not. If drivers are adopting the advice, it's a choice, not a requirement.
Meanwhile, as others have pointed out, what is needed is a barrier system that prevents pushing someone onto the tracks in the first place--at least before a train has stopped--instead of something intended to save a life after a "pushing" has happened.
The unions always push their will on the very people they rely on for their outrageous pay and antics and it is NEVER good.
So, the idea of not barreling into the station is a horrible idea, only because it came from the union? It's cheap, it's effective, and it can be immediately implemented What exactly are you so angry about?
I'm sure that if the MTA had proposed the slowing of the trains and the union complained you would be blasting the union for their flagrant disregard for public safety. Really, think before you post such nonsense.
Great point. The MTA is worried about schedules the union is worried about more copycat pushers. I have yet to hear the MTA's ideas for a solution that could be quickly implemented. Gates and railings? When? How much?
There is no reasoning with anti labor fools.
You can't stop crazy or stupid. Whether a train is going slower or not someone can, and eventually will, be pushed into the oncoming train. Let them roll and get people to and from their destinations as quickly as possible. It is NOT the unions job to address public safety although well intentioned as it may be their job is to move people and do it by the policies in place by their employer, many times the unions have overstepped their bounds. The unions lately have done more to hurt this country and themselves than help, case in point Hostess and their stupid strike, now they are without a job. Yeah, that was smart. End of story.
So you think the union is in cahoots with the pushers? That this is some dastardly plan by the unions to get something out of their customers? I have a relative who counsels train drivers after they have been involved in a suicide attempt by train and let me tell you, it's not pretty. Those drivers see ahead what is happening and can't stop in time. It is a disturbing event that they have to live through - pretty much like someone in the military being powerless to help a comrade. In fact, drivers suffer a form of post traumatic stress. It's understandable the union would want the drivers to slow down and try to prevent more of these deaths. Your knee jerk anti union reaction just shows that you have little true empathy for the victims and drivers in these situations. Hate much?
"Truth": Like many who share your opinions, you are ill-informed of the actual facts of the case, as opposed to BS propaganda. You should learn the actual facts of the Hostess situation before offering opinions. You'll sound less like an ignorant blowhard once you do.
In this instance, the slowing of trains moving into the station for safety is a common sense issue that should be absolutely non-controversial. Your illogical anti-union zealotry is showing.
A perfect example of the problems with unions. Who manages the system? The managers and administrators, or the union?
They're way out of their role. It's symptomatic of union overstepping. In this case it's use of a safety pretext to lower productivity so the system will need to hire additional workers. Another good reason why there should not be government employee unions at all.
Another paranoid conspiracy theory. My guess is that the real reason that unions advocate slower entry speeds is to allow operators to stop more quickly. Administrators of the system just complain because they don't want to alter the schedule slightly, That would be work on their part.
Letusreason your'e an idiot
If you were a train driver how would you enter a crowded station? Fast, slow or somewhere in between. People to move or safety? Then if someone uses your train to murder another, how do you shake that off? I don't blame the union for getting involved but management does have a point, a slowdown would increase crowding and be perhaps counter productive. Even in Boston I've always been amazed at how fast a big train filled with standing passengers enters a station and comes to a complete rest. Oh by the way, the third rail that I seem to recall is positioned on the far side of the tracks from the platform is charged to about 300 volts DC and if you stumble onto that to avoid a train will kill you just as bad as being run over by a train. I'm just amazed how many people survive a subway ride unharmed.
wje37fcsm -
Actually, if I had the choice between getting hit by a train and electrocution by the third rail, I'd take the train. One moment of pain, and you're a splat. Electricity, on the other hand, will set off all your pain receptors simultaneously, so even if you die quickly, that one moment will be stretched into agonizing eternity as far as your brain is concerned.
Janstince... Agree, poor choices. I used to work telephone systems.. Huge battery supplies... 52V DC. That current is spread to every land line in the country. Take a volt meter and that is what you will read in your house. Skin resistance is such that there is little to no current flow on the surface of the skin, hence it is considered a low voltage device and safe for human consumption... even a toddler sticking the phone cord in its mouth. However above 100 volts current starts to make its way into your body looking for a way back home and at 300 volts, even if it were a series of flashlight batteries serious things start to happen. As for the train, it doesn't look like there is much room below the platform and by the tracks, nor does there appear to be a lot of room under the train. Bottom line... if you're pushed off a subway platform, hope you are agile enough to hop back out.
Ban blogs.
ban unions
ban inter-species mating.
Been wondering where you were, haven't seen anything from you in a while.
He probably got banned
Unions doing what's necesary, and it makes sense. MTA needs to pull it's head out and work with them.
Keep pushing boys! New York's electoral votes are dropping with every shove!
What a vile, despicable comment.
Oh lighten up. Two, count 'em, TWO incidents have happened and the everyone's willing to build the Berlin Wall between the platform and the train at taxpayer expense. Sure, it's tragic, but have you ever seen the number of deaths per year for trampolines? This is not news. This is fear mongering, just like the feel good measures people are trying to take with assault weapons. It's not a high frequency problem, it's a high profile problem. The media is under constant strain to produce "news" 24/7 and as a result, they're reporting every little minsicule story, injury, and death they can get their hands on trying to keep people on their site. As a result, folks feel like the world's falling down around them and overreact to everything. We've become a nation of knee jerk reacters. No, Sandy Hook was not "minsicule", but the updates every 2 seconds with new comments from the most extreme left and right wingers the media can find and focus on the gun that was used ensures any meaningful legislation that could actually prevent future tragedies will be lost in the verbal chaos of the media officials, lobbyists, and politician's three ring circus. I'll hand it to you that my comment may be in bad taste, but in all honesty I'm surprised anyone on here even read it. Mainly it's just my reaction to all these New Yorkers comments on here that I feel all but suggest that this is and should be national news and drastic measures should be taken. And I'm thinking, "Good Lord, and these people vote". Look, subway deaths happen in the city and this happens every now and again and has happened ever since I lived in D.C. back in the 90's. In the rural areas of the country, you have boating accidents and deaths. It happens. It's not national news, and it's not a Defcon 5 issue that warrants any new rules, regulations, or structures to be built. We're all complete idiots if we can't understand how paranoid the overreporting of isolated, local incidents is making us.
who cares what the MTA says. We have a high vis problem and we need an equally high vis knee jerk reaction. i mean come one. thousands of people die from handguns each year but we're going after the mean looking guns responsible for a tenth of the problem.
To the people that say railings won't work, take a ride on the S line, Times Square end has railings and they work just fine. You can alo take a ride on MTA-North and visit a station or two where the lines are being repaired in the vicinity and can see how well a conductor can line the doors up with platforms spanning the gap of the line that is closed.
Gee New York deaths are being caused by thugs and mental cases pushing people in front of trains. Better ban the trains as well as assault weapons.
I am beginning to think that some of you idiots have never ridden the subway or at least, have seen it. There are yellow lines to tell people to stand back. There are signs that say it. The union would not make more money. Wow, some are you are just plain stupid!!
Obviously the mentally unstable 'pushers' ignore the yellow lines, flaunting their willingness to ignore safety standards.
Perhaps is time to move the YELLOW LINES back 3 more feets and add a laser warning sound if somebody cross the line before the train stop in front, the laser warning is all ready in use for years in elevators, entry business, etc. is old technology, used now in train stations !
It seems the city wants to take the easiest and cheapest way out, when in fact, they should be rounding up all the wack jobs in the city and having them committed. Rehabilitation has not been a priority in this country for the past 15 years. Along with the mass shootings, we're starting to pay a hefty price.
I have seen systems where the train stops at exactly the gate and the gate opens automatically. Apparently they are using "sensors" of some type to enable the train to stop at exactly the point where the gates line up with the doors on the train. I doubt it is all that expensive, probably using optics or magnetic sensing. I have always thought having the open platform was a risky business, especially when there are kids, seniors and big crowds, people a bit tipsy; the possibly of accidental pushing or falling off the platform is always there, talkless of someone intentionally pushing someone off the platform.
Unfortunately the gate concept would be very expensive.
Great. Why not just ban the subways and ignore the real problem -- all the mentally unstable people in NYC. Japan has another set of doors that remain closed until the train comes to a complete stop, thereby eliminating the danger of someone falling in front of the trains. It also prevents unauthorized people from entering the tunnels from the open platforms. Unions probably wouldn't like that idea.
Since it would likely be union workers building the barricades and doors I doubt they would dislike the idea of more income. Once again, irrational anti union garbage being spewed, always by the same people. Once again FAIL
Thank god for unions, and boo on the MTA for being so greedy and selfish.
.... that union would use any excuse to work slower.....that's what they're best at....
Those big, chain link garage rolling doors that they use for every store in the city?
A system like that could be easily retrofitted to the existing subway structure, made to open with optical/pressure switches on the track side, and have a manual chain pulley system should the powered system fail.
OK, MTA. Ball in YOUR court! If you don't like that new measures make a proposal of your own! Be part of the solution, please.
Screwed by the unions again. The people need to ask New York to ban labor unions as they cause more harm to people than guns!
Sounds like a wonderful idea, rober34 must be a real f-head.
I remembver in London the subways say--"Mind the Gap" I doubt if they are advertising the clothing store.
The following comment of mine was 'collapsed by the community' WTF?
the unions are drunk in power in this country (I former member of many union's) they co-government this sitem whit the help of the guilty federals, We don't beed more unions, we need more laws full in base at COMMON SENSE !
All they need to do is install a sliding railing that comes upward from the floor. coming down would crush the stupid and the crazy (not to bad an idea), moving in sideways would offer the same probability. Put a slider trench in the concrete in the front part of the platform, about 7 inches back. The rail slides up from the concrete and stands about 7ft. People wait. It will be a mesh wall, where people can see the train but no person can pass through it. If they want to commit suicide, they have to climb over it. The train comes to a complete stop, the rail slides back down into the concrete and people enter the train. A voice comes over a P.A. system that says. "Please wait untill the rail is flush with the platform before you try to enter the train." At the same time, the train doors will not open untill the rail hits the bottom of the rail well and triggers the doors to open. Problem solved.
Just cut out a few areas in the concrete next to the track... so you roll into it, letting the train pass by you if your stuck down there.. or just make an overhang.