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Subscribe to RSSThe Pentagon has given women the go-ahead to be grunts, but will they also be joining elite special units such as Delta Force or Navy SEALs?
The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said he believes there are women in the military today who would meet the rigorous screening requirements for special forces.
That's no easy feat — for man or woman.
To become a Navy SEAL, for instance, the ideal candidate will swim 500 yards in nine minutes, do 90 push-ups in two minutes, 85 curl-ups in two minutes, 18 pull-ups in two minutes, and run 1.5 miles in under 10 minutes.
Marine Special Operations wannabes need to swim 300 meters in a utility shirt and trousers, tread water for 10 minutes while clothed, and hike 12 miles with a 45-pound load in under four hours.
Delta Force, which is so secretive that the Army doesn't even acknowledge its existence, recruits members of other special forces units who have already proven their physical mettle.
Then, according to the book "Inside Delta Force," it makes them complete land-navigation courses that include an 18-mile nighttime trek with a 40-pound backpack and a 40-mile march over rough terrain.
Women who've passed the Army's grueling Sapper Leader course say they're well-prepared to enter combat, and in some cases, better prepared than men. NBC's Jim Miklaszewski reports.
No problem says Kate Wilder, a retired lieutenant colonel who was the first woman to qualify for the Army's Special Forces in 1980.
"Just to get into the course, I had to pass the male advanced PT class, which was the toughest class at the time," she said. "I was in my 20s, in top condition.
"If I could do it, these young women who are so in shape today can do it," she said.
Wilder said she got into the course but was told just before graduation that she failed a field exercise. She filed a sex-discrimination complaint and a judge found she was unfairly denied qualification.
Now 61, Wilder said many of the physical screenings for the Green Berets and similar units are are tests of endurance and agility, not brute force.
She remembered trouble she had with a course of overhead bars she had to complete. "My trainer told me, 'It's not strength, it's technique," she recalled. "And one day I just got it. But there were a lot of men who couldn't master the bars.
"There is nothing today's women physically can't do and if she can't do it right away, she can be trained to do it," Wilder said.
Paula Bronstein / Getty Images
View images of the women deployed as the second Female Engagement team in Afghanistan
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Leave a Comment:
Do women have mettle to qualify for special forces?
Well, to answer the question in light of recent developments the answer would seem to be a perceived "yes".
However 'saying' and 'doing' are two different matters regarding these units. The drop out rates for special forces units are extremely high for men as it is. Hollywood might have produced 'GI Jane' but in reality would that stick?
Remains to be seen. Ladies? Any takers?
The media is jumping the gun to get a reaction. Let the female troops do a good job on the front line and like any other man, then the Seals MIGHT take one or two. I think they have what it takes and will do great........
Just ask your mother !!!
Or you can give your 'NO' answer to your sisters.
ProFreedom-5130956 - no, recent development does not lead to yes. It only leads them to partaking in combat roles.
These specialized positions have such high standards they most men don't pass. Marines had started letting women apply and partake in such programs but ALL have failed. I do not have any issues with women serving as long as they can pass ALL standards and quals.
P.S. - your mother might give you some spanking as an answer.
just let everyone into the military with no standards at all on fitness or anything else. Heck, lets open it back up to nursing home reisdents.. .
Hey, I issued a challenge- I never said "no"- quit typing words on my keyboard. I say: Go for it ladies! You have your chance now. And you'll make it if, and only if, you do have the mettle.
Women are as brave and qualified.
Besides, when there are female special forces around, male special forces become more brave than they usually are. ..... morale boosting.
it's a win-win...& win
A majority of females can't even pass their PT test, and are not even held to a male standard. I'm going with no on this one.
What a another further lowering of standards so we can be SO POLITICALLY CORRECT.
Hard to pass a PT test when a lot of females are on on a dead man's profile for no reason what so ever!
OK wire10221, women can kill(really, they can). Russia, Israel, Mytiliini & etc. How many Vietnamese women died defending their country? Ever heard of nachthexen? I would not want an army that disregarded(especially in counterinsurgency/aesymetric warfare) women. Half the world is women...
Women have proven combat effectiveness. Only a fool would doubt that.
They water the qualifications down wire and were screwed as a nation. Any time you drop the standards the entire fighting force becomes weaker as a whole and the entire branch suffers. If they can make it as the standards exist without one change to the program then its all good. I just wonder if some of the more elite units have a success rate for men at 10% how they are going to fare
Why do we let ALL men try knowing that some will fail, and let NO women try knowing that some will pass? If we meet the same requirements there is no logical argument against this.
This isn't about the multitudes of women who CAN'T do it. It's about the few who can, and giving them the opportunity. After all, the majority of men can't do it either.
Wire,
You'd be surprised. Glad to see you re-regged after being deleted.
wire10221: "No doubt towelhead women hide suicide vests underneath their titties. But that doesn't address what I said about two different standards being created for our military. You know I'm fukking right."
What standards? "Total war" is one community against the next. If you are killed by mortar/indirect fire, bayonet, bullet-to-the-head or IED(lets say vest is IED), you are still dead. We(U.S.) spend way too much on weapons that do not neutralize the threat. I believe that all persons with titties would go at it if the opportunity arose... To save their children from an outside force... And: "towelhead" is a gross marketing term. Most Muslims and Arabs are allies of the United States... You are misinformed, brother.
Folks, the real TEST of women in hard, ugly combat roles IS the higher regard we have for women. As our Mothers we have tatooed on our bicep, the girlfriends, wives, sisters, daughters, etc we pine to be reunited with again,,,,We hold their doors open, take their hands, and generally regard them NOT as the WEAKER sex, but the DIFFERENT sex, we want to keep from the grotesque, filthy, nighmarish terror of war, injury, dismemberment, burns, limbs blown off, breasts and genitalia mutilated, parts of the skull and faces (women's faces we men), would normally "check out" in civvie-life.... etc, etc.
It is a mind set differential, NOT a CAPABILITY difference,,,,its XY and XX differences. Its the WHY-- the WHY, YOUNG men call a Mother, Sister's, a Girlfriend's, Wife's name-out when we are wounded or are dying! I have been there--it is so, combat IS so obscene for life! Its the American Pie thing, from the gals painted on the nose of a bomber to a woman we XY's call HOT---deep in ther its more than a need to copulate----we want each our own definition in those women, but more deeply the aspects of a woman, lady, Mother we may find and HONOR, RESPECT, and CHERISH all our days within,,,,,Think about it,,,,we are NOT the other countries by the way---war IS an ANNUAL on-going event for this country---how will this change our society, our culture, our personal perceptions, relationships?
I would like to think that women our the true backbone of this our society, culture, and way of life---who are the child rearers, the educators, the ones we men cry over, but honor the most above all! They bore us, nurse us, train us, educate us, heal us, bury and mourn us,,,,,think---is this vombat thing good? Really? There is a longer rsponse to you women specifcally, but too long just now,,,,
and just another thought---I would have hoped as the Women, any Woman, who has been freed from the old chauvinism in our world, in our Country too, as Women around the world, now take positions of Power---running the Nations, the Universities, the Institutions, the Companies, yes, the Churches!, tghe International Trade, the Politics, the Systems---all formerly run by men. I always had this notion that some how they would be the true HOPE of the World,,,,and figure out how we can stop the rock throwing, the slaying, mutilation, the bombing, the Dictatoring, the droning, the possible Radiating,,,,well, I saw in women all my life that they may have had the seeds to get men to stop finally, stop all that. I hoped they tired of seeing their men come back in coffins, in pieces, in mental ruin after ALL conflicts--they reassemble society, bodies and minds to get our country going again, to heal and rise to its higher ideals---ones they , THEY taught us as kids! Yes, I always had the belief we would see them take over the world---NOT the filthy, baseless killing men are so good at,,,,,I've been there, and seen both sides,,,,if I 'come back when I die, I hope its as a woman in one of the roles I began my comment with---NOT as a Lady in combat, that's too ancient a theme, this combat thing,,,,(by the way I am not a simpy pacificist, I just hold us all to the higher Ideal)
It has never been a case of bravery or mettle... Woman have the "mentality", bravery to go into battle... BUT there are different physical standards (from body weight allowance to physical test) that recognizes the difference between men and women... take those away and you will eliminate up to half of the women in service, RIGHT NOW.
So since combat is what the question is and some woman are "crying" about equality.. I say eliminate ALL differing standards for women and make then EXACTLY like them men ... ONE standard... But that won't happen... you know why... ACLU, Women activist groups will say "They aren't making the standards... "fair". I know many women in the military (some in command positions) who say this whole idea is a crock and does NOTHING for equality or combat effectiveness but simply cowers to special interest.
My wife was in the military... she knows the deal... Women CAN do MOST jobs in the military.. but not all jobs... They are not suited for some "missions" and that is not sexist... that is common sense... Sure there are those "women" who can go toe to toe with the best of men but is that what the "mission" is? Well.. I guess they can train... and die with the best of us... after all the grave knows no gender and bullets know no favoritism. All equal under the Gun.
Hmmm... I am reminded of years ago - the mid 1960s to mid 1980s, when it was a big problem with women wanting to become firefighters.
Similar to the U.S. Navy Seals, nearly all fire departments (an all male situation at the time), thought up and developed rigorous physical requirements as part of the testing. Lifting hose, climbing ladders, handling charged hoses, etc. All in the hopes that women would fail.
However, the only real criteria should have been: Can you drag this firefighter out of a burning structure? In other words, are you strong enough to drag an unconscious person of 200 to 300 pounds to safety? Anyone who could do that, could certainly handle the rest of the duties.
I spent 13 years in the fire service - despite having a fear of heights. I was OK working on the roof of a one story house, but not anything higher than that.
Every officer knew that. So, instead of climbing ladders, I footed them so other firefighters could safely climb. At drills, I would go up to my maximum comfort level, then interlock one leg and hang off the side of the 35 foot extension ladder, so other firefighters could practice passing on a ladder.
Strangely, I had no problem being on the snorkel platform at about 50 feet in the air, because I felt safe doing that.
Regarding women in the U.S. military participating in combat - they should have that opportunity. Once again, the main criteria should be this: Can you drag your wounded battle buddy to safety? The second criteria, are you a good shot?
Maybe we should ask these questions:
Can women perform barbaric acts without being labeled a psycho? Can women climb a 50 foot collapsible ladder on a moving vessel while carrying 50 lbs of soaking wet gear? Can a woman be amongst men and not break unit cohesion by dating/having sex with one of them? Can a woman convince men with high testosterone that they can be part of the team, without ruining unit cohesion? Has one woman on this blog ever mentioned that they want to be part of the team or are they just wanting prove they can do it. Can a woman go out for 300 days out of the year and do training in cold, wet, miserable conditions and yet remain with a unit/team/platoon?
Granted there are women who are PT animals, BUT, for 30 years, I have yet to see any of the above accomplished by women. It can happen, but all in all I believe women want to prove they can do it and it ends there. No woman has proven themselves in the long haul in any field requiring brute strength over the course of enlistment or obligated service. I have yet to see it. Even amongst women in the Marines. They only last a few months until they find a way to fit themselves into an "administration" role. They talk a good talk, but when it come to walk the walk, they only go a few miles, and not the distance.
You said it flame. Women are better at some jobs(sniper) & men can crush through other obstacles... all are fit for combat. If we are truly in a fight for our civilization, why would we not want our better half to help us?
When a woman can get a contract in the NFL- I will concede that they are ready for combat---however, Football is a game, not life and death. But until the day a woman sports a Pittsburgh Steelers Jersey on the grid iron on Sunday, nooooo freaking way they need to be in a combat operation.
NFL? Are you daft?
uuhhh.... I think I made the point in english....comprende?
I agree with your first sentence. But not your 2nd one. What you describe has nothing to do with being brave, its called "showing off" and no its not a good thing, that's when guys do stupid things, and could be used as a reason against women in the military. But hopefully most soldiers (and special forces, etc) will stick to what they are trained for and won't let the presence of a woman influence their actions.
With Female SOG men would not become "More Brave", nor would it be a morale booster.
I was 3rd Rangers for 14 years, all being "Brave" did was, in the end, resulted in death, wounded or maimed soldiers.
When I received my Bronze Star I was not "being brave" I was doing my Duty.
I took an oath, to leave no person behind.
When I lifted three wounded men from a downed Chopper, one by one, under intense fire, threaded through mud and waist deep water, it was not about "brave" it was about doing my job.
I have never had an issue with women in the Military.
What I had issue with was training them for Combat roles, like Airborne, with reduced physical standards, when they would never be jumping into a combat theater.
If we train them to the same standards and they pass use them.
Other wise it is a waste of a limited spot opening, money and resources.
An 11-Bravo position is different than the training any of our Elite Forces Candidates has to endure.
Watering down any aspect of the training defeat teh purpose.
If we are to allow special training for women, what happens if a gay man who says he is more feminine wants to apply?
Do we adapt the training for them as well?
How about a person who is short and says they feel the training discriminates against their physical stature?
Change it for them?
How about a man who cannot carry a full ruck?
Change it for them and make me or my other squad members carry their load too?
Not on my or another soldiers life.
NAd now the final one...
Two of my children were born when I was deployed to some small corned of shoit-ville or east-bumb-fuk hell hole. I was not alowed to stay home and see the borths, nor was I allowed any special down time after.
When my unit was called up it didn't matter what was going on, I went.
IF a woman becomes pregnant what becomes of the coherency of such tight units?
All of these Soldiers work together for years on end learning each others habits and movements as to become a single unit capable of unbelievable things as a team.
To take say 9 months off for Pregnancy, then another say year or two to raise the child and get back into top condition would disrupt the unit.
Plus what would happen if a woman was pregnant did nto tell or know and lost the child due to a training exercise or mission?
I believe it would devastate them and I believe some would attempt to sue.
Me loosing one of my children devastated me. I was not made aware of it until 3 days after, because of my mission status. When I was in field shortly after, that thought NEVER crossed my mind. I was deployed 3 weeks after his funeral.
The sacrifice to my family, myself or the unit....Which one did I have the right to choose?
More death could have occurred if I chose to take a hardship leave.
The death of my Marriage and destruction of my family if I disregarded my family and chose my unit.
My wife knew this and knew wives of others in my unit, she said I needed to go.
These are decisions that have to be made. I am not saying women are not capable of these types of decisions, I know they are, my wife is proof to me.
I am saying that women face a different set of challenges and obstacles that could interfere with their duty's as SOG soldiers.
I trained with Israeli Female Soldiers, they were NOT as tough as their Male counterparts.
I worked with female Gorilla fighters in Central America, they were as tough as their male counterparts.
It goes both ways.
But female Soldiers in our Military now can be put on profile for severe Menstrual cramps, how would that play out?
Sorry no Sf training to day IM cramped up and bleeding.
just saying.
1.30
Broadbrush assessment of 51% of the female population....
BUT... I do like the word "CHALLENGES".
It's something that many women are capable of conquering.... just like men are.
What I think women DO ADD...is that playing war as a child isn't as inherent to them. They are normally the peace-makers. If more women were in charge of nations, I doubt if blood, suppression, terrorism, torture, and the willingness to rush into "WMD" would be as prevalent.
Speaking from personal experience I would say no. And dont take this the wrong way, its not an insult its just that I have not met a female service member that ranked above average when it comes down to physical fitness. Now I say let them try to do what they want to because it should be their right. But if they are shown any sympathy at all because they are a female, it will be proof that they are not qualified.
"Do women have mettle to qualify for special forces?"
Doesnt matter if they can qualify or not, they have the right to try. Thats the point. Equality means that a women gets the same opportunities as a man would. If she can pass, without making changes to make it easier for her, cause that changes it from equality to sexism, then she has every right to be there.
May I remind people that combat arms is not just limited to the infantry or special units. We have armor, artillery. Submarines, Jets,Choppers,Naval combat vessels and many more that they could be extremely good at.
The Pentagon said allow women into combat roles and all of a sudden everyone things infantry and special operation groups as if that were the only combat units out there.
The standards for which ever combat unit they may wish to pick have to be the same for everyone, because in combat units every position is key and everyone needs to be held to the same standards
Of course they can, we just need to change the standards and test to meet their standards and they will be a shoe in.
As long as they pass the same test, go thru all the same training, sure... why not?
Trouble is, there will be very few women that will qualify. So in an effort to have more women, the training & tests will be altered.
A Seal Team is more physical than most women (and most men) can handle.
Most of these posts are from the typical Male dominated factions of American society. The responses come from ex Military or Active Military and our elected Male representitives. Opening up other paths for Women is very scary for this type male.
The Military will intergrate the Women into comat positions that they are qualified to perform. No Female in the army is going to accept a combat position that she is not comfortable performing. No Combat commander is going to allow a Female shoulder to be assigned to mission that she is not quallified to perform.
The Politicians and senior Military Officers will have to get over their little snit and get with the NEW Military.
The rest of the world, about 10 countries by my count allow Women into every Combat situation that they are quallified to perform. The Rusians were very big on Women in Combat in WWII and the Israeli's have had women in combat for years. I am not going to list every country but many different nations allow Women into combat units.
Get over it. Do it.
Are you a combat veteran ? not that it matters> You want your wife daughter aunt or other female members of your family to be combat veterans? The post you refer to as ex military or typical male oriented parts of society. What their opinions don't count? And who really cares what countries had have women in combat units. We are addressing the issue here about the women from our country and there will be a diversified number of opinions on the issue. So keep an open mind about it. No one answer or opinion is always the right one.
Concur completely - keep the same standard for both males AND females and those that can perform will pass and those that can't, won't.
PLEASE don't make separate sets of qualifications for males and females - on the battlefield such distinctions don't exist. Again, most of either gender will fall out during testing (as that is what is supposed to happen), but I'm certain that there are some that will pass with flying colors and those elite few should not be limited by bias and discrimination.
I have no issues what so ever with letting women into the various special forces units in our military..... so long as the standards are not lowered to allow some in. That is, if a woman can meet all the same requirements of the training that a male has to go through, then I see no reason not to.
I don't know if its still the case or not but when women were first integrated into fire fighters and police forces, the physical requirements were lowered to get them in, this is wrong, wrong, wrong, and a hazard to their own and the public safety.
No. They can try but they will fail miserably and it will do more harm then good to the agenda of the Radical Left Wing Liberal/Progressive Wack Job Feminists. Special forces are a far cry from your average grunt. These men are very special people. Physically, mentally, and emotionally.
@Pigotry, what you said about women on the battlefield making the men braver is nothing but pure BS! Making the men braver might just make the men dead!!! Ever think of that, men do stupid @!$%# around women, give me a break!
Do women have the mettle? Of course, as long as we do what we always do in this country, and that's either dumb things down (think hood-rats and the illegal aliens in our school system), or in the case of the military, lower the standards to accommodate women and their liberal champions and, in the process, ensure we're less prepared than ever before.
With that said, though, if we maintain our standards and don't accommodate them, then this is a non-issue because there'll be maybe three women with half a chance.
My resolution to all this nonsense is simple: create an all-female grunt unit and an all-female sort-of-special forces unit, train them to the extent that they can handle it, then deploy their a$$es to the front-lines and let's see what they have. This way they get what they want, and the real grunts and special forces don't have this ridiculous distraction that's sure to get some of them killed just so the idiot liberals can push another piece of their pathetic agenda.
After all, you don't need any help from us men, you can do it all on your own, right, ladies?
That is what I told my Colonel in Viet Nam, but referencing me a male. He looked at me like I was delusional. And of course you find out you are not qualified to perform it when you die from it, a real catch 22. What exactly are the qualifying factors to chase the enemy down and kill or capture them.
I'm fine with it, but I want women to start registering for the draft to, all physical standards the same for both men and women. I mean whats equality when you don't make things equal? Making something easier for someone else just makes it a scam.
Shawn- The problem is right now women and men have differnt standards. the entry level tests for a female to join the military differ from each service and also differ from the males in each. For example: I have to run 3 miles in 18:00 to get a perfect score on a PFT when a woman only has to run 3 miles in 21:00 to get the same score. EQUALITY MY A$$!!
Don't base the argument on whether women can do what men can do, physically. Instead, ask whether there are roles that women can fulfill, or fulfill in ways men can't, to complete the mission.
SOGs, SEALS, Delta, covert ops etc. use various techniques and methods that most of us cannot imagine, especially in an "asymmetric war." It's very likely that women may be more suited for some of the tasks or roles in many of the military operations and schemes we civilians know nothing about.
Wire- Thank you for understanding reality. Very few women will ever be able to do what men can do physically and yes that is the problem. They are gonna change the physical fitness test(PFT) for women start this year. Women will no longer be aloud to do just a bend arm hang and they will have to do pull-ups like the guys. But, I have to complete 20 to score perfect and a woman will have to only do 8. Unless they make everything the same equality is just an idea. I want equality, make them do exactly what I have to do since we compete for the same damn promotion spots but its easier for them.
Inmyday- If they cant hang in with the physical part their mental state will be all jacked up. One thing special ops selection tests do is test men under extreme stress. Keep them up for 24-48hrs and then give them the same tests. Its fact that we begin to lose brain functions under extreme stress situations. And not basing it on the same critiria as men would not be equality either right???
Whistleberrie, the criteria is, Can the women pass the same tests the men have to pass. If they can, wonderful. If they can't, they can't.
I am all for women succeeding, but not to the lowering of the military standards.
If they want the job, they have to prove they can do it.
Absolutely.
Pigotry...and you would know ? How would you know ? You've completed the Special Forces Qualification Course yourself? Or was it Basic Underwater Demolition training you went through ? I'm curious.
Personally, I could care less if women put themselves forward for SFQT or BUDS training, if you can do it, you should. But I'll believe it when I see it. I remember when they first let women into Basic Parachutist training, they dropped the standards so women could graduate. They eventually dropped the standards all across the board. Like Mom always says...you get out of something what you put into it.
Actually some work is so tough that even men can't pass. They have to lower standard too. But this inclusiveness and higher morale can be an extra trump card here in this case.
I just love feminism...I want this so lower the standards. If women are physically able to compete with men, believe me there is no great competition than warfare and combat, why don't we have any women in professional men's sports? Football, baseball,basketball or even bowling? Granted so women are gifted, say like the Williams sister in tennis, but they would be the exceptions.
Pigotry, my son is assigned to the 10th SFG at Ft.Carson. The 'Q' course has about a 95% failure rate. And NO they do not lower the standard so men can pass. The standard is kept high for very valid reasons.
No... women are not built the same as men.
It's true that a large portion of SF Q courses are mental, but there is still the physical part.
And piggy, where did you get that "Actually some work is so tough that even men can't pass. They have to lower standard too" bit? I've never seen a special schoold lower standards because the trainees couldn't pass... it was ALWAYS pass or fail.
I've noticed you make up "facts" to help your point. This one of those?
@piggy thanks for playing you are no-go at this station!
don't be such a male chauvinist oinker !!
SF training has never lowered standard because it was to tough for some..NEVER.
Being an ex Ranger/3rd/10th Mt. SOG, I have never seen nor heard of lower standards for SF training.
I have for Females going through Airborne and regular Basic Training.
But being profiled and either recycling or washing out have always been the only two options.
Show me where you received the information to back such a foolish statement.
It is that attitude that will lead to the deterioration of Sf training....
Not acceptable by any means.....
If she cant or he cant hump my wounded butt and all of my gear out of danger if I am wounded......
I don't want them.You will be hard pressed to find an SOG trained Soldier that would.
Even something like armor requires upperbody strength that most women do not have, loading 120mm rounds on a battlefield or breaking track are not easy tasks, but maybe we can just get the ment to do that and let the ladies fill out the paperwork because they have nice handwriting. Morale will suffer.
Pigotry...you're dodging the issue/question. The question is "How would you know if women could successfully pass SFQT or BUDs training"?
Don't mind piggy...She woke up on the wrong side of the pen today....She just has nothing but hatred for men, conservatives and especially conservative men....
sure they do. Lets just low the standards and get them all in. After all, GI is mercenary issue...who cares if they can actually fight outside of when uncle tom comes once a month.
The standards need to be realistic for the specialty they are assessing. Once you have a realistic, minimum standard, then both men and women must meet the standard to do the job.
Currently, Israel, Russia, Poland, Norway, Turkey, China, India, Afghanistan and Britain have females in Special Ops.
The laughing stock of all fighting personnel around the world!
Well the Women that carried a weapon and fought with the VC in Vietnam were a formidable foe.
They were?? Really? And you know this... how??
You there?
roc1960...I was...and I didn't run across too many women in combat. There were women serving in front line units with the NVA and VC, and I have no doubt about their bravery or loyalty, but there's an inconvenient truth about combat. It's the day after day after day of having to hump 85% of your total body weight along with a weapon, up and down hills, mountains, across streams and do it on three or four hours of sleep and one or two meals (none of them hot) that's going to keep most women out of infantry roles.
Actually I wasn't in Vietnam myself. I ended up in some craphole in Laos. No uniform, No military ID, No Dog Tags, No service ribbons, nothing. My orders had me someplace else so according to our Government I was never there. Remember Laos was "neutral" and there was no U.S. involvement in places like Laos and Cambodia. Ill leave it at that. I do agree with your post, I guess at this time it just remains to be seen.
I call BS on this. Who wears service ribbons in combat?
If defeated in battle they could pull the victim card like the aggressive feminists in the US do when they can't back up their "macho" act.
Females are Too mean to be soldiers.
Imagine a male soldier captured by a troupe of women and interrogated?
You call us 'mean girls'?
I call 'toughness' - one more good qualification to join special forces.
No Mercy?????
Buffy (the vampire slayer) says.... we kick butt.
Yes, We Can ... kick....
Four women with PMS with a captured enemy combatant. Combatant Doesn't stand a CHANCE!
Only in the fantasy world of Hollywood Pigotry
Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a movie character, not a real person... but that sums up your point...
Pigotry; I've followed many of your posts on various topics..so here is my question for you. Have you ever served one day in the U.S. military? I've been in 19 years, 11B (Infantryman), been deployed numerous times and also served three years as an Army drill sergeant at Ft. Benning, GA (Home of the Infantry).You can offer your opinion, and that's all it is, but until you lace up those boots, slap on a ruck and actually do what I do, not watch tv and G.I. Jane....sometimes its better to keep you opinion to yourself. I'm not saying women can or cannot do it, but I know just from reading your posts in the past, this is not your lane
U R so uptight, loosen up! Women in combat might just do that. Men tend to be more brave with women around too. Win-win-win.
@pigotry Your view of combat is like that some fukking game show where the loser get's some consolation prize at the end! Well it's not it's people dying and suffering and nothing is glorious about it people getting maimed, crippled and killed some things you have to do to survive you don't care if you never talk about it again. But it is still an all volunteer go sign up and get a taste!
WOW, why would anyone believe using f-word (wrong-spelling?) makes for better arguments? Observe common courtesy, otherwise, you don't belong here ... or anywhere!
Because you don't seem to get it and there are a lot of people here I feel are combat vets that seem to think this will detract from readiness this is a serious issue. And on this subject I feel you haven't served and you have no authority or background on to speak on the subject especially if you have never picked up a weapon stood a post or fired a shot in anger. It's always appalling people like you think you are subject matter expert's telling those that are serving or have served how it should be you are irrelevant and a bore just close your mouth. Combat arms is a dangerous occupation it's not some game and you don't get a I feel good about myself award just for showing up. Why don't you grow up.
Pigotry, you have no idea what you are talking about. Women better be able to hold their own and not have a man take up their slack, years past the initial qualification courses. At first men will not be able to accept a woman into their group of elite soldiers, then once they do, it take one relationship within the group to ruin unit cohesion, or if the woman shows weakness and cannot perform it ruins it for all women. Women have not proven their worth, only in the media and movies have they proven themselves, but the majority have not. There are things in the military that are not known to the public because of "political correctness".... or just plain white lying. ie pressure for female quotas must be met, lower physical readiness standards for women, only publicize women accomplishing work that actually men did, over emphasize how well women are adapting to military and combat environments (any military females can chime in and tell me I am lying), etc. Although, there are men who cannot handle the same too.
......pigotry, what a stupid clueless moron. You clearly live in the world of rainbows and lollipops.
Quick true story-
Fire academy 1995. Search and rescue drill, down firefighter. My job, guide the feet around corners. Partners Job, drag the Down Firefighter. Partner is a 5'0 female- not bad shape- down firefighter, male, about 6'0 200 lbs. As a rule, when your air gets low and the bell starts ringing, you have to leave the building NOW.....2 people in 2 people out. So.....after tugging and pulling, pulling and tugging, her air starts to go low, bell starts ringing, we have to leave the building. I grab the strap on the downed Firefighter and start dragging, telling her to guide the feet.
As we exit the building, the Instructor begins yelling at me "why are you dragging the down firefighter, that wasnt your job". When I explained the low air alarm was going off on my partners pack he replied " then why didnt you leave the building with your partner". I responded, " I did what I did as if it were real life...in real life I wouldnt let another firefighter die, if I could do something." To that I got a nod, and the instructor moved on.
Point, what if that had been "real life", would that person be able to live with themselves, knowing someone died, because they "thought" they had what it took.When people start dying to accomodate political correctness, something is definitely screwed up.
Pigotry, we still haven't seen any examples of physical standards being lowered for males. In fact, while I was in the marines the physical requirements were raised for males... just males. The fact is, the past few decades are full of examples of standards being lowered for females to pass. Heck, the only realistic moment in GI Jane is when the commander tells her off because she is even asking to be tested at the same standards as the men.
Since this is supposed to be all about equality, I would suspect that the law requireing women to sign up with selective service will be passed soon. Or is equality only the standard when it supposedly beneifits some one?
Only a Sexist would ask such a stupid question. There are plenty of Women that can kick a male's butt without working up a sweat and this is coming from a male. The real question is "Should they be allowed to fight", If they pass the test, then they should not only be allowed, but "Forced to" just like any other person who is not drafted. I have a Daughter in the Military, so I do have my own right to let my view be known and I served in the Military as well. I have been to Countries that "Drafts everyone that qualifies" back in the 1970's and strongly feel that the draft should not have been terminated here in the US as that is part of the reason our Country is so screwed up today.
There are many females that can kick "a" males butt, but there are a whole lot more males, who can kick ANY AND ALL females butt.
I have no doubt that there are plenty of women who are smart enough and mentally and physically tough enough to make it. How ever with so much of what they do requiring super upper body strength and considering how few men qualify I wonder how many women have the upper body strength required.
Not many. That's not the point. If they meet the standard, they are in.
Currently Israel, Turkey, Norway, Russia, Poland, India, China, Afghanistan and Britain have females in Special Ops.
Hey... as long as you don't set quotas and it REALLY IS about qualifications. Not just timed events and fitness. She HAS to make it just like any man. And she has to be allowed to fail just like any man.
Otherwise...
Nahhhh, they will just set quotas eventually - just watch. Someone will complain that the special forces aren't diverse enough, so they will just let women in.
One thing I feel is the same standards to be part of a unit should be the same, Male or Female. Those standards were put in place because that is what is needed.
Agreed!
The MALE standards MUST be applied to the female recurits... even the grooming standards. They're there for a reason, too...
I couldn't agree more!
Actually, the standards thing is not correct. Some standards were put in place specifically to exclude females. The new standards need to be realistic, and they need to be applied to the men and the women. Two separate sets of standards is wrong.
Grooming standards? You may be surprised to find out that some Special Ops troops (men) have very long hair, facial hair, and wear sloppy, crappy looking civilian clothes.
If a woman can pass the physical and mental requirements necessary to become a member of special forces, that's the kind of person I want in the special forces. If she can't, she can't. Plenty of guys flunk out of SF, so I'd assume women would flunk out at the same rate, but some would pass, and that's good enough for me. I do believe they should have equivalent standards, though. It's not fair to the squad, and not fair to the individual if they don't.
Drop out rates for both BUDS training for Seals and Special Forces training are sometimes 100% for qualified male candidates. Classes that graduate candidates contain a small percentage of the original group. If the Navy is allowed to keep their current high standard for BUDS training and the Special Forces are allowed to keep their current high standard I can't imagine how a female candidate could complete the training cycle. She comes in with 40% less lean muscle mass than her male counterpart and BUDS and SF training are designed to take a well-conditioned and highly motivated male candidate to the edge of his envelope. If the best conditioned female candidate only has 60% of the physical reserves the male candidates possess, how in the world can she complete the training....
...unless, as has happened in police and fire departments all over the country, the requirements are reduced and we emerge with our first affirmative action graduates from BUDS training. If that is our target, and I'm sure it is, please allow the Navy to change the designation to BUDS LIGHT training and hand out a dessert fork instead of a Trident.
Rest assured, good men will die when weaker links are forged into the special ops chain.
Before the howling starts, ask yourself one question. Is there a single woman on the planet who could train with the US men's Olympic team, then win a berth in any real discipline, then go to the Olympics and emerge with a medal? The answer is no, and that's why we created another venue for women to compete. They can't outrun, out jump, out lift or out anything a world class male athlete.
BUDS training makes the Olympics look like a walk in the park. To emerge from BUDS training a man must be at his physical, emotional and mental peak and he only stays there for a hand full of years, and then he leaves the Teams, because he can no longer jump over walls in full pack. He generally enters the Teams in his early twenties, then is gone by his late twenties or early thirties. So if you're wondering if it is possible without directives from on high to make sure a female candidate graduates from BUDS training, the answer is no. Without changing the training regimen, she will suffer the same fate as older male BUDS candidates, less well-conditioned male candidates and those who are at the high and low end of the physical spectrum. Too tall, too short, not enough muscle mass, low bone density, those are all things that will turn you out... and the last three are things that will eliminate female candidates in short order.
The men in the Teams are the tip of the spear. They are the best of the best, and even Admirals defer to a Trident worn on a lapel. If our best female Olympic athletes could not compete with their counterparts on the men's team and for arguments sake, could not on their merits win a male track scholarship anywhere in the country, then it is without question that women do not have the physical capabilities to get through any of the spec ops training schools under current guidelines.
Of course, leadership can always change the guidelines and turn Major League Baseball into Single A in Tidewater USA and that is their right. But what you end up with is a Snooki look-alike standing a watch on a midnight wall while barbarians are at the gate.
No problem, except, who's on the relief force? Bill Maher and Oliver Stone? And who's running the Op? Hilary Clinton from deep beneath the Benghazi consulate?
Give me a break.
Bud Light, Thats a good One!
Bud Light tastes like someone peed in a beer bottle. :(
How many times have you accidentally drank piss from a beer bottle? :P
jean nailed it.
Women can't make it through the training??? The article already said that the lady in question passed all of the tests...the same one the guys took. I know a LOT of women who are very, very strong, and very, very motivated.
Currently Israel, Turkey, Norway, Russia, Poland, India, China, Afghanistan and Britain have females in Special Ops.
This woman got in via a lawsuit. She failed!!!!!!! She never went on a mission. She never killed. She just got special privileges. 2 women qualified for the Marine officer course and both failed, this year.
Political correctness has gotten a lot of Military killed in the past few years; so, no special privileges and no special reduction in qualifying requirements.
A Chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Every Link must be as strong as the one before it and the one after it. All links must be equal in strength!
"All links must be equal in strength." This is not true for military units. Each guy in the unit is stronger in some ways, and weaker in others. They all must pass the MINIMUM test. In each tested area, some guys will be above the minimum.
We need realistic test, and then one standard. If the women pass, they are in.
Currently Israel, Turkey, Norway, Russia, Poland, India, China, Afghanistan and Britain have females in Special Ops.
Just the fact the world has elite female athletes should be proof enough women can hack the physical aspect of serving in special forces. My only requirement would be that women serving in the military must have crew cuts/ high and tights like their male counterparts.
I have never known, don't know now and probably never will know a single female who could complete Ranger School. I could be wrong but i just don't see it.
Yes Brad, but the female athletes are competing against other women, not men,
these elite female athletes are competing against other elite female athletes not elite male athletes. put the best female mma fighter up against an average skilled male fighter and watch the carnage that would ensue. same thing would happen in the special forces. you are delusional if you think otherwise.
Many male Special Ops troops have very long hair, are unshaven, and wear sloppy looking civilian clothes. There are a number of different grooming standards for men, already.
I'm for equal rights when it doesn't put people in danger.
I think this does put troops at risk.
No. This makes the units stronger. There are some women, who will make great US special ops troops.
Currently Israel, Turkey, Norway, Russia, Poland, India, China, Afghanistan and Britain have females in Special Ops.
Bad idea.
Good idea. I am paying for the military, and I want the best possible military. Excluding women, or any other group, for no reason at all, is crap. They used to say black guys couldn't fight as good as whites. Wrong as always.
Come on I have been to this goat rodeo before they will make the PT test for females so they can pass, without considering your enemies on the combat arena will give no consideration. Look around in the goverment training arena males are required on type of test and females another.
I know several women who would qualify. I don't happen to be one of them, but that's OK, too. The point is, they deserve the chance at the training, and in the field. Women are capable of doing so much more than many realize. In a volunteer force, such as we have, the opportunities should be there, and no one is going to be forced to sign up for anything they don't feel capable of doing. Women are already in combat, without credit, or opportunities for promotion. That needs to stop, and now, it will.
Women will do the services credit as they always have.
Time to try for the ERA again.
Name a single woman you know who could earn an athletic scholarship to any university in the USA in a male discipline and I'm with you. But you can't... because they don't exist.
And if your friends can't compete at Slippery Rock and displace people in the Shamrock Invitational, then how in heaven's name do they expect to take ten steps up the ladder and compete against the best men this nation produces at Ft. Benning? And after that, how do you expect them to emerge from SF training? And after that, earn a spot in Delta Force or any other elite group?
You are asking the nation to believe that a female athlete of the highest caliber, and God bless her for her abilities and efforts, can throw a football like Aaron Rodgers, or rush a passer like Clay Matthews. You want us to believe that she can run with the best sprinters and lift twice her body weight and perform physically in a way that would astonish male onlookers. You want us to believe that she can hump a forty pound pack over a forty mile course and emerge in the top of her class...
It's not physically possible... so give it a rest. Why? Because it's never happened. Put your theories in the drawer and put your female friends out there and have them prove me wrong on courses men have proved themselves on, but which women have never overcome and you win....
Or you can change the game, and then claim it was the same game all along.
Mare P...How would you know if anyone, male or female, could pass SFQT or BUDs training?
I know a Marine Captain. He wants the smartest guys in his squad. He said the smarter guys are way better than the large/strong guys, who aren't as smart.
All this sports stuff is crap. The NFL takes the best players in the whole world, but they would take a woman if she was the best...there are no restrictions in the NFL. How many guys in Special Ops now, do you think would be able to play in the NFL...I will tell you, almost 0. Special Ops guys don't need to blow through a 300 lb. offensive tackle.
Special Ops needs realistic tests, and they need to apply those tests to everyone applying. If there are 9 guys and 1 girl, trying for 3 spots, and the girl is in the top 3, she gets the slot. If not, she's out.
Currently Israel, Turkey, Norway, Russia, Poland, India, China, Afghanistan and Britain have females in Special Ops.
The Chinese women, just like the men, they need to be able to climb up a 6 story building, without equipment, in under a minute. They also all need college degrees.
Missed this snippet in the original article... re fitness....
No problem says Kate Wilder, a retired lieutenant colonel who was the first woman to qualify for the Army's Special Forces in 1980.
"Just to get into the course, I had to pass the male advanced PT class, which was the toughest class at the time," she said. "I was in my 20s, in top condition.
Wilder said she got into the course but was told just before graduation that she failed a field exercise. She filed a sex-discrimination complaint and a judge found she was unfairly denied qualification.
Enough said...
EXACTLY. She passed all the tests, and then they made up a failure in one test just because she was female...and they didn't want any females qualifying....NICE!
Currently Israel, Turkey, Norway, Russia, Poland, India, China, Afghanistan and Britain have females in Special Ops.
Talk to the folks who went through the Q course with Katie Wilder. I know them personally, and their slant is somewhat different.
Women are too emotional for this type of service. When the going gets tough, they all just start crying and their mascara starts to run.
I'm against this type of service, but not for those reasons. I know women who are as tough as nails and do well at a hundred other things, but the physical requirements of the Teams are beyond them. Sorry, but that's just the way of it.
If you think a well-trained woman who knows her craft wouldn't put a double-tap behind your ear, think again. But that's another job... and it's not the one we're talking about.
Do you think Lyudmila Pavlichenko's mascara was running when she killed 257 men in May, 1942?
Do you think that Natalia Kovshova's mascara was running when she held the pin on a grenade until a bunch of Germans jumped in her trench, and then she detonated it?
Do you think Antonia Kotliarova's mascara was running when she killed guys with a sniper rifle, and a machine gun, and a submachine gun, , and grenades, and an anti-tank gun?
Currently Israel, Turkey, Norway, Russia, Poland, India, China, Afghanistan and Britain have females in Special Ops.
It sounds great that everyone is equal, but men and women are different. I worked for an entity that brought women in and they had to lower the physical standards to keep the number count respectable in the eyes of those counting. When you have to depend on another person in the most dire circumstances, possibly life and death, women must be able to perform as men do. Yes, there are women with the strength and endurance, especially upper body strength, to do the job, but most of us don't and that's a physical fact. If women want this job, they must not be given breaks and must receive the same training and expectations of performance as a man. Nothing less. Yes, I know some men can't do it either. If you can't take a bath for a couple of months, be jam packed into close quarters with no privacy, with men, don't complain, you asked for it. Also remember to take enough sanitary products to the front and don't complain about cramps. We can attempt to blur the sexes in every aspect of our lives,in our children, men and women, but it won't work except in rare cases. I hope this doesn't drag down the best military in the world. The jobs women in the military do now is to be respected and I'm grateful to them. I'm proud to be a woman and proud of these women, but to make them combat soldiers, I doubt that it is a good idea. Like it or not ladies, this is the way I feel. Oh, there are a lot of things we women can do that men can't.
Currently Israel, Turkey, Norway, Russia, Poland, India, China, Afghanistan and Britain have females in Special Ops.
BS! There are no women in the SAS/SBS! and there has never been women in Spetnaz!
correction Spetsnaz.
I served in Israel alongside the IDF while in the Marine Corps, the Israeli units are open to male and female but the set a standard and stick to it. They raise their women to work and achieve to the high standard not cry and file lawsuits to lower the standards. Israeli women are tougher than most american males today...
This completes the equality of men to women, since no professional area of life is closed to women now. God bless and keep those who will make it happen! It is absolutely vital to the future of the human race. - Rick Carter
I want this discused again in 5 years !!! I feel will be a lack of coordination within the units due to males trying to protect females. Good or bad?? I don't know. Good luck to all women who want to try
Yes. Female can do it. Female and male are different, from physicality to mentality. However, they are still God's creation. And either female or male can do it. Human beings will bring along with their talents and endurance, not just focusing to the physical strength, but turning around that female do have the strength that is required by the training.
Female can do it.
And rain can fall sideways..
In Scotland more often than not and in Oregon about twice a week.
Billie...How would you know if women are capable of completing SFQT or BUDs training?
I dont know if females can, or cant as a whole. But I think any person who volunteers to serve should be allowed to try.....many males have issues passing certain courses in the Corps also......so lets not make it a male vs female issue.....its more a WHO CAN vs WHO CANT issue. Just dont lower the standard to accomodate political correctness. If they can pass it then good for them, if they cant then no shame because many try and fail it. I served with several good Marines who could not make it through Jump School and Scuba School (amphib recon ohh rahh). They still served the fleet well enough.
SSGT USMC