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Subscribe to RSSNBC's Pete Williams reports on the major policy shift being considered by the Boy Scouts of America.
The Boy Scouts of America, one of the nation’s largest private youth organizations, is actively considering an end to its decades-long policy of banning gay scouts or scout leaders, according to scouting officials and outsiders familiar with internal discussions.
If adopted by the organization’s board of directors, it would represent a profound change on an issue that has been highly controversial -- one that even went to the US Supreme Court. The new policy, now under discussion, would eliminate the ban from the national organization’s rules, leaving local sponsoring organizations free to decide for themselves whether to admit gay scouts.
“The chartered organizations that oversee and deliver scouting would accept membership and select leaders consistent with their organization’s mission, principles or religious beliefs,” according to Deron Smith, a spokesman for the Boy Scouts’ national organization.
Individual sponsors and parents “would be able to choose a local unit which best meets the needs of their families,” Smith said.
The discussion of a potential change in policy is nearing its final stages, according to outside scouting supporters. If approved, the change could be announced as early as next week, after the BSA's national board holds a regularly scheduled meeting.
Only seven months ago, the Boy Scouts affirmed a policy of banning gay members, after a nearly two-year examination of the issue by a committee of volunteers convened by national leaders of the Boy Scouts of America, known as the BSA.
In a statement last July affirming the ban, its national executive board called it “the best policy for the organization.”
But since then, a scouting official said, local chapters have been urging a reconsideration. "We're a grassroots organization. This is a response to what's happening at the local level," the official said.
Two corporate CEOs on BSA’s national board, Randall Stephenson of AT&T and James Turley of Ernst & Young, have also said they would work to end the ban. Stephenson is next in line to be the BSA’s national chairman. During the 2012 presidential campaign, both Barack Obama and Mitt Romney said the BSA should admit gay scouts and scout leaders.
Jennifer Tyrrell, who was ousted as a den mother for her son's Cub Scout troop because of her sexual orientation, is fighting back. Tyrrell talks to msnbc's Thomas Roberts about her petition to change the Boy Scouts of America's long-standing policy on banning gays and lesbians.
About 50 local United Way groups and several corporations and charities have concluded that the ban violates their non-discrimination requirements and have ceased providing financial aid to the Boy Scouts. An official of The Human Rights Campaign, an advocate for gay rights, said HRC planned to downgrade its non-discrimination ratings for corporations that continue to give the BSA financial support.
“It’s an extremely complex issue,” said one Boy Scouts of America official, who explained that other organizations have threatened to withdraw their financial support if the BSA drops the ban.
While the national scouting organization sets broad policies, more than 290 local councils nationwide govern the day-to-day conduct of the more than 116,000 local organizations. Individual scouting troops are sponsored by religious and civic organizations that represent a diversity of views on the issue of allowing gay scouts and leaders.
“The beliefs of the sponsoring organizations are highly diverse,” the official said.
The policy change now under discussion “would allow the religious, civic or educational organizations that oversee and deliver Scouting to determine how to address this issue,” said the BSA's Smith.
“The Boy Scouts would not, under any circumstances, dictate a position to units, members or parents. Under this proposed policy, the BSA would not require any chartered organization to act in ways inconsistent with that organization’s mission, principles or religious beliefs,” he said.
In 2000, the U.S. Supreme Court concluded that the Boy Scouts had a First Amendment right of free expression when it came to the organization’s belief that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with values stated in the scout oath, requiring scouts to be “morally straight.”
The Scouts have won similar legal battles, with courts finding that the BSA’s right of free association permits it, as a private organization, to reject those it believes do not conform to is values.
Related:
Eagle Scouts return badges to protest policy banning gays
Gay mom upset after dismissal by Boy Scouts
Leave a Comment:
Come on there is no reason to cave on this. Stand up for what you believe in!! Who cares what everyone else thinks.
Obviously they do. Like all of us, they way they costs and benefits of any decidon. Not everyone is as absolutist some Christians seem to want them to be.
Well then, mighty good time to pull the boys out...no need to play Russian roulette with the boyscout Jerry Sanduskys out there having a field day for years before gettin caught.
Political correctness my ass
"Actively considering" turns into "Close to ending ban" in the pro-gay liberal media.
Just pointing this out...
Welcome to the 21st century BSA. Welcome all who would like to participate. Don't let the haters maintain control.
I'm with you, Bill...it's sickening that they would even consider giving in to these liberal hate-mongers.
However, if the BSA wants to see their membership really decline, go ahead and change your stance. Of course, then they can change their name to The Butt Scouts of America.
I don't like to see any faith-based organizations compromising on issues they do not agree with just because they are pressured by special interest groups.
"If approved, the change could be announced as early as next week"
It sounds pretty "close" to me, altough the answer could still be no.
Carryingconcealed
You sir have a lot of growing up to do if that is the basis of your argument. Any way bigotry is bigotry even if hiding behind the guise of a private club.
Many chapters openly welcome gay parents an scouts. BSA needs the time to move on and modernize. like some of the posters need to.
It's quite amusing to read many of the posts in this first thread by those gnashing their teeth against the march of equality and progress and yelling at the wind.
Newsflash fellas, the 21st century is moving on without you. Get on board, or be left to the dustbin of history...
you're right, you'd be far better off teaching your boys to do "manly" things where homosexuality doesn't exist, like play football... oh wait...
Paranoia brought on by ignorance. Homosexuality does not equate to pedophilia. By the way, Sandusky was married to a woman.
@DocHolliday are you joking? Secretly being a pedophile and openly being gay (i.e. attracted to adult members of the same sex) have literally nothing in common. In case you've forgotten, Sandusky was married to a woman and didn't exactly go around telling people he was into minors. The BSA's current policy would have done absolutely nothing to stop him and the change under consideration would do absolutely nothing to encourage him. If you don't like gay people, well, that's unfortunate for everyone--especially you--but you should at least take the time to understand what you're talking about. That's not political correctness, it's rationality.
How sad that they would consider it. I have nothing against people who live a homosexual lifestyle, we are all free to live our lives in accordance with our beliefs. however, those of us who don't believe this to be acceptable still have a right to NOT accept the practice and to teach our children that it is an unacceptable lifestyle choice.
Bill-3655817: You're exactly right. The biggest "sanctions" they've received is being denied holding their big conventions on certain govt property and they have worked around that. I say show those touchy feely lovey dovey all embracing creeps they don't get to say what BSA should do.
BSA - Stand Your Ground!! Don't do this! If they do, may as well allow girls to join too. Why should just the gays be allowed to have some "alone time" with that special someone in the pup tent?
Obviously the Co$t will lead the BSA to finally do the right thing.
Jesus taught love God, Love your neighbors and love your enemy...in other words, love everyone, respect everyone and treat others as you would want to be treated regardless.
now if only more of "his" followers would learn that...
It isn't the gays in the boy scouts that is the problem, there have always been gays in the organization. The only thing being changed is gay behavior is now allowed. If anyone believes gay behavior doesn't translate to pedophilia then why can't straight men participate in girl scouts without women being around? Straight men participating in girls activity doesn't translate into pedophilia either.
As I understand it an adult male homosexual can lead a bunch of boys into the woods for a stay and a straight man can lead a bunch of girls into the woods for a stay. This is going to be very interesting and lawyers are watching closer than anyone else.
justice - you're going to force your kid to spend their whole life running from homosexuality and alternative lifestyles. you can go ahead and pull your kid out of boy scouts but there is bound to be at least one gay scout or leader at the next organization you put your kid into too.
This organization deserves no public funding whatsoever until they completely end their discriminatory policies. ZERO. And to DocHolliday....all gay people are pedophiles in the same way that all gun owners are serial killers. If BSA wants to continue to discriminate, they should change their name to the Christian Bigot Scouts of America.
Sadly drowning, it falls on many deaf ears and blind eyes but it is sincerely the core of faith in God really is, just forgotten or ignored by those who proclaim to follow Christ.
...or the Butt Scouts of America.
DrowningGrover
No, manly things like the military...oh wait.
Bill- they are standing up for what they believe in- the money coming in!
Meh..it's a cult one way or another...I am surprise that anyone that is gay would want to join the BSA.
Do the Girl Scouts of America have the same stance?
TigerJ-- The girl scouts are in no way affiliated with the boy scouts. They have a loving, open , and affirming stance and proudly encourage all young women to join, without fear of discrimination or judgement.
It was stupid the first time you said it, we didn't need a repeat.
The BSA isn't tell the local chapters that they must accept gays. They are saying that it's going to be left to the local groups to decide. What's wrong with letting them decide?
To all you "self righteous" people out there (Justicenonexist, Doc Holliday) you have no clue about the scouts and are probably one of the non-active parents that don't get involved anyway. Not to mention the fact that you haven't a clue about homosexuality.
First, it seems that every time "self righteous" people think about homosexuality, they immediately think about the ACT. Why is that?
Homosexuality is no more/less different from Heterosexuality except the preference of same sex vs different sex...and that's it. Most of us try to live our lives in respectable ways...law abiding...civic oriented. However, when people like justice and Doc hear the word "homosexuality" or "gay" they immediately think about sex. I wonder.....what kind of people are so fixated on that they ignore any other part of a persons story....gay or otherwise and (even the bigger question here) what does that say about THEM?!
To show those "self righteous" creepy people out there that homosexuality is not about pedophilia, I made my own stand and left the Sea Scouts (BSA for Nautical purposes) after 4 years. I have no kids so I have no children in the program but that didn't matter to me or the persons I worked with and was asked to stay.
Now to assuage those creepy people who think their boy is going to be molested by us MONSTROUS homosexuals, the B.S.A. has implemented strict guidelines and training to protect the scouts in their care and the system prevented several "heterosexual" people who preyed on some kids before TRYING to join the B.S.A. form joining.
So I ask you "self righteous creepy people"....what's REALLY on your mind?
start your own" queer scouts jackasses!! leave them alone, guess two dads already played with sons swheen already and are looking for fresh meat??
Justicenonexistent, silverton and others who seem to be missing the point of what exactly is happening here...
1) Special interest groups aren't getting BSA to change their policies. They already tried and failed.
The parents and adults who run the local chapters want their sons in Scouts for the many good things they are taught, but they also want the experience to instill their values of tolerance, acceptance and diversity. This change isn't coming from outside BSA; it's coming from the local members and administrators. It's coming at them from the bottom up, as it were.
2) BSA isn't forcing any Scout troop to accept gay members.
If the sponsoring organization doesn't want to accept gay scouts, they don't have to. This policy change doesn't say any troop *must* accept gay scouts... only that if a troop can if it wants without fear of getting their charter revoked. So for those who are afraid that their Church Boy Scout troop will now start letting in the gays, rest assured that won't happen unless your Church wants to let them in.
I'm glad that the courts decided for BSA in the original suit. Not that I support that kind of intolerance, but I *do* support the freedom for a private organization to make that kind of policy decision. But I'm even more glad that the body of the Scouts wants to bring the organization into the 21st century and that the BSA leaders are willing to listen to their local members.
What's really sad and distressing to me is the deeper reason for all this mess: An antiquated view of homosexuality as a mental illness or inherently immoral.
RwEvans:
Jesus taught love God, Love your neighbors and love your enemy...in other words, love everyone, respect everyone and treat others as you would want to be treated regardless.
To add, parents will always advise their sons as before and the same thereafter.
mudderfly: don't you just sound all edumacated like..... what are you haulin' there, an 80 or maybe a 90 point IQ?
You hypocrites are always claiming to be about fairness and openness to EVERYONE, but that is only if they are on YOUR side.
For example: If a local Boy Scouts chapter wants to emphasize pride in the black community, the gay community or the Hispanic community you would be all for it. "That's great!", you would say.
BUT, if that same local scout chapter wanted instead to emphasize pride in the white community, history or values, you would SCREAM FOUL!!! You would pi$$ and moan and instigate legal proceedings, and do anything you could to stop it, wouldn't you?
I say, let's put your fairness and openness to the test and see if you really have the compassion you claim to have.
BSA is finally admitting that gays and lesbians are just like everyone else.
@carryingconcealed, you are right. If the BSA caves in, they are nothing but more spineless cowards giving in to the liberals. I wonder if they have bothered to get the opinions of their members. Cub scouts/boy scouts are a great program for boys, not pansies. If you are gay and want to be in scouts, go join the girl scouts or form your own group. If BSA approves this, I will be dropping my son out of scouting. I will do my best to serve God and country, well you better change your oath BSA because gay and lesbians are not acceptable behavior to God. It is sinful and unnatural and I know that the troop we are in will not accept gay or lesbians in it, because we are true christians who do not believe in this disgusting act. I will be damned if my son will attend any function where I have to worry or he has to worry about Butt Scout molesting him. It is bad enough it happened in the past and now BSA is considering opening it up even wider to happen even more. That really makes a lot of sense. It disgusts me BSA would even think about this. My son is almost finished cub scouts and he definitely will not be going into Boys Scouts or future Butt Scouts. Good way for you to ruin what is left of the boys scouts BSA!
no one forces anyone to join the Boy Scouts, they have over 100 year tradition of teaching leadership, survival, and a strong moral code; if they do not want Gays, that is up to them, if you do not agree with any groups belief, than do not join or support that group. SCOUTS HONOR.
Do it! Do the right thing!
The homophobes all defended the right of BSA to make their own decisions on this, when they thought it was a decision they would agree with! Now it looks like BSA might make a decision they don't agree with, and suddenly it's a travesty!
Stupidity always amazes me. Pull em out Kanic!
Yeah, it always comes down to the money. The push is to normalize homosexuality, and they won't be satisfied until they ram their views down everyone's throat.
hardtostarboard
LOL! Girls are already allowed to join. Try to keep up. Obviously that didn't cause the sky to come crashing down since apparently most people didn't even notice. If they allow gays the sky won't come down either and frankly, the only people who would even care don't seem to know much about the scouts anyway as there is nothing that would prevent a gay person from living up to the scout creed.
muddlerfly, lose the antigay slur. Not really clear who you're calling 'jackasses' here; I suggest specifying so it's not trolling fellow Viners in the future. You're suspended for a day for violating #5 of the Code of Honor.
Levi777
What the @!$%# are you talking about? Why would a company support a group that doesn't represent them? And where did any of these companies say "change or else"?? They didn't. They aren't in any way "ramming their views" by saying "no thanks, we'll take our money elsewhere".
i guess alot of kiddies will be getting it up the a$s ,bet they will teach them how to play with there wood while rubbing ittrying to make a fire as well as making "log jams" of another kind ,as well as "pigs in a blanket"
Wait until the straight kid gets touched on his genitals or tried to be kissed by the gay kid in the tent.....guess what happens...
Or better yet... watch scouting's enrollment drop.....
@Tyler,
That seems a little bit like targeting.
Are you also going to ban Proud 2B liberal for violation of #1?
I'm for spirited discussion as the next man, but his comment is entirely disrespect.
I think everyone here needs to remember that, despite the headline, the boy scouts haven't yet decided to remove the ban, the discussion is under review. This move is precisely why there is opposition to gay movement. It's not they we hate fairness or equality, it's that we hate people asking for equality when they have begged the question of legitimacy in the first place. It's like the gay movement feels they can circumvent any law by exercising subliminal pressure. As though they've written themselves a blank check called "Victimization" they can pull anytime they're in question and automatically, magically, every matter is resolved. It's the threat of being labeled a bigot, and synonymous with the evils attributed to racism that is disingenuous. To get back to a main difference between racism and homosexuality. Racism can be tested and isn't a conscious decision. Homosexuality cannot be biologically tested, and is almost entirely a conscious decision. Anyone claiming gays are "born that way" has no conclusive scientific evidence to support that claim.
Haaa! I love it! All the holy rollers who used to tout the rights of private organizations now have a problem with those rights.
Why is it always the most ardent anti-gay folks who seem to have such an unhealthy fascination with homosexual conduct and acts?
Equal rights for the LGBT community are coming folks, not because they're "ramming their agenda down our throats" (which again, evokes the image of a sexual act) but rather because society is adapting and embracing equal rights for all as our founders intended. Get with the program, or be left by the wayside in the dustbin of history just like those who argued against women voting and integrating schools...
this if fracking nonsense and has no scientific merit whatsoever...
Wasn't it MSNBC that bashed the Boy Scouts for hiding the fact some of the Boy Scout leaders were gay, still bashes Catholic priests being conceled from open lists like this, supported repealing 'Don't ask don't tell' that Clinton enacted to protect them, and recently implied that gays in the military were too dumb to find another man of faith to perform the ceremony other than enlisted pastors? Hmmm
I'm pretty sure you just made that up. There's a HUGE difference in "I don't want to send my child into that environment" and having a problem with an organization exercising that viewpoint. Are you advocating children should be forced into that environment or something? What if it were a viewpoint that equal opportunity employment should apply to the number of teachers in schools being highly religious?
I understand gays need their rights and freedom but what about the rights and freedom of the straight? Can't they do anything without being admonished and assaulted? If they want to maintain a straight only club, what's wrong with that? They have gay-only clubs, don't they?
People make a lot of choices in life such as the religion they will follow and the political party they support, but being black, Native American or gay are examples of things that cannot be chosen. If you don't like blacks, Native Americans or gays, be thankful that you are not one of them but don't be so cruel as to belittle those who are.
Being in the minority is tough enough for anyone in that position, mostly because of the cruelty of the majority. Humanity can be better than this.
Apparently you're unaware that there is absolutely no "Christian litmus test" to be a Boy Scout. There are troops around the world, and membership has never beed based on the Christian religion. There are troops in Israel, troops in Buddhist and Hindu countries.
I was a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, and Explorer when I was a child and a teenager, and was never required to follow any specific religious beliefs. And, by the way, I am not gay.
And not all Christian religions believe that homosexuality is a "sin."
I am sick and tired of homosexuals throwing around the term "BIGOTRY". In case you haven't noticed, YOU are a bigot if you refuse to tolerate a persons beliefs or way of life. Yes that includes people who don't agree with you.
You want to live and let live? FINE. Live the way you want to and I'll live the way I want to live my life. You say being a homosexual is your business? FINE keep it that way.
I agree with Drowning. Why do you people who are so afraid of gays or hate them so much so fixated on sexual acts? When I think of straight men (I am female) I don't go around imagining all the sex acts one might perform, nor do I for anyone, actually. Out of all the posts on this thread and any others that relate to gays at all, you people are the only ones saying things that are totally scary, creepy, and fixated on who is doing what sexually to whom. It's actually disturbing. Ick.
You who say things about the boys being at risk? Read the news...it's the straight guys...the pedophiles...who have already been molesting the kids, not some imaginary lustful gay men. Do they preach about all that stuff you talk about at church, or do you go look it up or something? What says things like that in the real world whether you are straight or gay? It says a lot about you, but nothing about anyone else. Go get educated and read some real news instead of the religious stuff or whatever things you are apparently reading exclusively. Ick.
And no one said all would have to change anything...just the local groups who want to change it. Geez. Reading comprehension, people...read the word gay and start visualizing things...doesn't that strike you as a bit odd if you are really straight?
Severed Head in a Jar,
Who said anything about Christianity? There are Jewish Boy Scouts, Muslim Boy Scouts, Mormon Boy Scouts, etc.
Need to put your head back on your neck ...
Because gays flaunt it and shove it down our throats so much that it leaves nothing to imagination.
That's because there is an apostate church, and not all who attach "Christian" to their title are actually Christians. Like gang members wearing crosses, and mafia going to mass, Christians who affirm the normalcy of homosexuality are in fact not Christians at all, just as those who hate gays are not acting as Christians at all.
For all of you people that think gay people are not already in positions of authority in the scouts, wake up. They hide it because they have to. For the totally uninformed, pedophiles are almost ALWAYS heterosexual predators, so get off that line of thinking already. If you want to live life in the 1950's, go get Marty McFly's Delorean and go back there. But just so you won't be surprised, gay people existed back then too, have since the beginning of time. You seriously need to get your collective heads out of your butts.
Money has a funny way of making people reconsider their "beliefs" and supposed "morals". With big name donors halting their annual donations to the BSA, the leaders suddenly realized that money is more important than their backwards convictions.
It's just like the Catholic church claiming a fetus is NOT a person, when money in a lawsuit is on the table.
I have to admit, it is hilarious to see these conservative groups flip-flop on their beliefs when the all mighty dollar is at stake. Does anyone still question what they really worship?
Bull@!$%#. Outside of the Castro and the Folsem St. Fair (which let's be honest, is no more than an LGBT Mardi Gras, "'show us your *i*s' and I'll throw you some beads") gays do not flaunt their behavior any moreso than your average hetersexual couple.
The only difference is YOUR reaction when you see a gay couple walking down the street hand-in-hand and a straight couple doing the same...
Congrads BSA.
Equal rights are not special rights..... The sooner people show some respect & tolerance for others with regards to equal rights for all..... the better we will become as a nation, as we live in a diverse culture with many types of people following many different beliefs.....None of them more right than the other...But equal.
If you want to be religious in this country...you can, be thankful for that. In other countries they die for their beliefs.
If you see my life as a gay person unacceptable.....that's ok, no one is asking you to or forcing you to become gay.
Given those two points, if you agree with them, ask yourself these questions about you personally:
Is a gay person entitled to have freedom of religion, without interference or conversion, or hate from me based on how I view my God.
If your answer is yes.....Thank you for your support. Many of us are very spiritual too.
If your answer is no....better check yourself and what the Constitution says about freedom of religion, it doesn't say unless your gay this doesn't apply to you.
How does another persons sexual orientation affect you personally? (Please note I did not say what preference).
Do you walk down the street asking people if they are gay or not?
How can you tell if a person is gay?
How many children do you know of that talk about sexuality in social situations?
If your answer is many then there is a very sever problem that needs to be addressed as this is not normal behaviour for children.
If your answer is none or not many....That's how much difference it will make in the BSA.
If your going to bother replying to me please do so by answering the questions then tell me what you want to say.
If you are a supporter of LBGT Thank You for your support.
Please don't do this to our children. They have to many problems trying to grow up already with out trying to throw more of your perversion at them. Growing up can be a scary thing already.
And this is why I would NEVER send my kids to the boy scouts....
NEVER NEVER NEVER... not in the condition it is in right now...
I am responsible for the protection of my boys! and no one in their right mind would send them into this den of wolves!
WAKE UP AMERICA!
One of the things I find quite odd about all this is the ones that are deeply opposed think that these boys should be exposed to more "manly" things and threw that exposure it might somehow "cure" homosexuality. Why would they oppose it. It fits into their thinking.
I don't get it.
Jonathan-1728701
If the BSA and the troop is talking about sexual orientation then I would think there is a bigger problem going on in that troop. It never came up as a topic in any of my troops as a BSA...And I'm gay.
These are kids. Sexuality is not very high on their list of priorities nor was it mine while in the BSA.
Drowning Grover...
Flat untrue. Western Washington voters voted in gay marriage in Washington state and two gay restaurant owners in Seattle immediately announced their intention to go to Walla Walla, a farming and college community on the other side of the state. Seattle has every kind of scene one would want for a memorable occasion. Why Walla Walla? Neither one has any connection.
The college is Sevent Day Adventist. The local radio station... www.plr.org .... broadcasts that Saturday morning service. Walla Walla county is perhaps the most conservative county in Washington, and voted against gay marriage.
So why would they go all the way across the state to Walla Walla? Two reasons.
Tell me gays aren't shoving it in other people's faces, and this kind of thing does NOTHING to bridge the gap, but only makes people more resolute in their opposition.
I also might add that the boys that there are in the eagle scouts that have come out and want to be given badges for service that any other young man would have except for that fact that they are gay.
It in no way implies that any of these young man did anything inappropriate at anytime during their tenure as a scout nor have I heard of any such allegations ever.
@DrowningGrover ,looks like they will be "ramming something else down our throats" becides their agenda, it will be big ,hairy and slimey,then shoot cum out of it !!!,no thanks leave the BJ for bubba in prison ,not the kids
Levi777
So what your saying is that before this couple there weren't any gays in Walla Walla.....Have I got news for you.....LOL
As a native NW myself your sadly mistaken on every level....There are more LBGT there (in Walla Walla) than you know.....Even a few straight guys that like to wear women's under-ware and things.....Give me a break!
Ever heard the term....We Are Everywhere?
It's true.
hopefully that pocket knife comes in handy for castration !as self defense
*****Lets see what Jesus had to say about homosexuality back in Genesis chapter 18 as the "Lord" and Abraham standing before him:
16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.[c] 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”
------>>>>>20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”
22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.
*******Now lets read how so-called "non-bigoted homosexuals" in Sodom treat people trying to stop them from forcing themselves on innocent others in Genesis 19:
4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.” 6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing.
------->> 9 “Get out of our way,” they replied. “This fellow[Lot] came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.
10 But the men[angels from God] inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.
*****Now, look at the reaction from God and his angels to the behavior of these homosexuals:
12 The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the Lord against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.”
15 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished.”
******Finally, look at God's ultimate response to what He calls wicked behavior and those who refuse to repent from it:
24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the Lord. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.
29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.
*****The moral of the story is this:
Jesus loves everyone but He does not love our sin. Don't think even for a minute that He will change His mind about anyone's sinful behavior regardless if they are a straight or gay person.
Jesus the LORD did not spare Sodom and Gomorrah for their wicked behavior. He will not spare you or me for our unrepentant wicked behavior! Just read the Book of Revelations to see He has not changed His mind.
WE NEED TO HAVE A CHANGE OF MIND ABOUT OUR BEHAVIOR AND WHAT GOD WANTS BECAUSE JESUS THE LORD WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND!!!
This flew by me! I didn't know you had to state your sexual preference to become a Boy Scout.
45 minutes and not one of you have bothered to reply to my questions....That says a lot.
Keep hanging your hat on hate.....See what it brings you.
David-3994413
And who appointed your version God in charge of everyone?
FREEDOM OF RELIGION!!!!!!!!
strmz
Thank You...You don't
You religious nuts have an real problem understand those words.
So says your bible.....IT"S YOUR BIBLE......NOT EVERY-ONES.
TALK ABOUT AN AGENDA.
And the first time this turns into a "priest/child" thing, are you all that are for this gonna scream and clamour like you did then? Not saying it is an absolute...nothing in life is. But if you are going to jump all over the Catholic church for that, then you need to give equal time. Okay, you may now collapse this post like I know you are going to.
"You religious nuts have an real problem understand those words"
Steve, why shouldn't we hang our hat on hate? You seem to be doing just that...
the meaning of the Scout Oath.
On my honor . . .
By giving your word, you are promising to be guided by the ideals of the Scout Oath.
. . . I will do my best . . .
Try hard to live up to the points of the Scout Oath. Measure your achievements against your own high standards and don't be influenced by peer pressure or what other people do.
. . . To do my duty to God . . .
Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.
. . . and my country . . .
Help keep the United States a strong and fair nation by learning about our system of government and your responsibilities as a citizen and future voter.
America is made up of countless families and communities. When you work to improve your community and your home, you are serving your country. Natural resources are another important part of America's heritage worthy of your efforts to understand, protect, and use wisely. What you do can make a real difference.
. . . and to obey the Scout Law; . . .
The twelve points of the Scout Law are guidelines that can lead you toward wise choices. When you obey the Scout Law, other people will respect you for the way you live, and you will respect yourself.
. . . To help other people at all times; . . .
There are many people who need you. Your cheerful smile and helping hand will ease the burden of many who need assistance. By helping out whenever possible, you are doing your part to make this a better world.
. . . To keep myself physically strong, . . .
Take care of your body so that it will serve you well for an entire lifetime. That means eating nutritious foods, getting enough sleep, and exercising regularly to build strength and endurance. it also means avoiding harmful drugs, alcohol, tobacco, and anything else that can harm your health.
. . . mentally awake, . . .
Develop your mind both in the classroom and outside of school. Be curious about everything around you, and work hard to make the most of your abilities. With an inquiring attitude and the willingness to ask questions, you can learn much about the exciting world around you and your role in it.
. . . and morally straight.
To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance.
Now where does it say one type of GOD?
@David-3994413 you might want to actually read that bible before you go around misusing it to suit your aims. Jesus was not in Genesis. Jesus the LORD is not happy with you ignoring his explicit instruction to love your neighbor as you love yourself and not to judge others.
@justicenonexistent I keep asking gays to explain the "homosexual lifestyle" to me, and nobody has any idea what you're talking about. Since you seem to know, perhaps you could explain.
@David-3994413....You wrote "Let see what Jesus had to say in Genesis".
Sorry dude, Jesus wasn't around in Genesis....so it was just God.
And as you read further, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because there was not one person that was faithful to God in act or thought. The men who "wanted to have sex" with the men Lot was hiding were trying to do it forcefully...against their will...as in rape. Gay or Straight...not acceptable and disgusting.
It is my personal belief that those who like to spout the Bible to "force their thoughts down peoples throats" (a phrase used a lot on this board today) should live EXACTLY how it is portrayed in the books...public stonings...etc.
Care to address the 'gay agenda', Steve... You mentioned that you were a Scout, and that you profess some spiritual belief. It's obviously not Christianity.
Yet, you call those opposed to your viewpoint 'religious nuts' or 'bigots'. How have those of Christian faith that oppose homosexuality harmed you, buckaroo?
Diner and AJ -
There are many Christophinies in the Book of Genesis, which foretold of the coming of Jesus to the earth. Also, many people believe the Angel of the Lord in Genesis was none other than jesus Himself, not to mention that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in the same in Christian belief.
Any time someone uses a fairy-tale, like the Bible, to justify their stance, they lose all credibility.
It's no different than someone basing their feelings on the elven teachings in Middle Earth, or the Jedi principles in Star Wars.
You want to base your life on a fairy-tale, that's fine... but you don't get to force (no pun intended) your fairy-tale on everyone else. Now go read about the "magical" man who can live in the belly of a whale. (Does he have any relation to Aquaman?)
mguy -
"Any time someone uses a fairy-tale, like the Bible, to justify their stance, they lose all credibility."
And that is your opinion. I won't go into that old addage about opinions. Suffice it to say, you are preaching your gospel of disbelief the same way others witness for their belief. Let me ask...do you believe in science? Bet you do, most atheists do. Well, just like how you think the Bible to be, science cannot prove anything to 100% accuracy because there are too many variables. So...the question for you is, are all books fairy tales to a certain extent? Do you believe sub-atomic particles exist? You can't see them, touch them, taste them, smell them or feel them, but because a science book told you they exist, you believe they do. Is that the same as someone else reading the Bible and believeing? You stop voicing your opinions, maybe others will stop voicing theirs at you. Freedom of speech works both ways, you know.
Gives a new meaning to the "buddy system"
Sad to see them turning out sick, weirdo, sucky faces...Yuk..!
Homie D Clown
Take a look at these posts....We not only hear them everyday...In some cases we have to live with it every day.
It doesn't matter what my understanding of God is & what does my understand of god have to do with your understand?
Are you going to try and tell me yours is better or something...yours is more right than anyone else's? HOGWASH!
Equal Rights as an agenda is everyone's agenda not just LBGT.
David...Jesus did not write the Old Testament and He never said a word about homosexuality in the New Testament. I know that and I'm not even a Christian. Steve, everything you write is absolutely true. Bravo.
Where does it say that? Interesting how the pseudo-christians seem to just make garbage up as they go. Is the Bible just not good enough for you? Why did your grammar choice make "himself" the proper noun instead of "Jesus"? Are you trying to display the complete lack of respect that you have for him? What is your purpose for making up your own Bible and treating Jesus with such tremendous disrespect?
I have noticed that the most hateful, disgusting and perverse comments are being left by those who are attempting to label gays as perverse. It would seem that THEY are the ones we need to protect our children from.
AJ-1965668, um, yeah....., Proud 2B Liberal, you're each suspended for a day for violating #1 of the Code of Honor. Don't make it personal.
Not restoring any low-content derails about anal sex. Always seems to happen, never are really on-topic.
I wonder if you even bothered to read any of the article.
stupid libtards are for "gun control ,but not"CUM CONTROL" rather have pete the pistol around the kidsteaching gun safety, then pete the pedofile around shooting loads off around the kids or at them !!!
azdrl
Actually, you are wrong. If you were capable of even a small amount of reading comprehension, you would have read... "You want to base your life on a fairy-tale, that's fine"
As you can see, I am not "preaching a gospel of disbelief" because I am not trying to convert anyone. There is no gospel that I am spreading. In fact, I even went so far as to say it's "fine" to believe in whatever fairy-tale you want. The difference is that people like YOU try to force others to believe in your "gospel". Whereas I simply support the right for everyone to believe what they want, without pressure from people like YOU trying to force your lifestyle on us.
The rest of your post is completely pointless because of your failure at reading comprehension. By the way, you still didn't answer my Aquaman question. Was Jonah the original? And would that make Jesus the Flash, because he can walk on water?
Kassie S.
Thank You for your support.....You would make a fine Den Leader.
Kassie -
"...He never said a word about homosexuality in the New Testament."
Read Matthew 19:4-5. Talks about man and woman becoming one flesh. Also, what law was Jesus born under? What law was He taught and lived under? Mosaic Law. Right, the one from the Old Testament.
MARK S-971793
No value
Inflammatory
Sick
Reported
mguy -
Funny...I don't read anywhere in my post that I am trying to convert you. You talk of my reading comprehension, but maybe you should read mine more carefully. I am saying that your words are your opinion, just as mine are my opinion. I notice you didn't go into the science analogy I made. Again...different beliefs for different people, but don't put them down for their beliefs. I guess that is the most important thing I am trying to get across. I never made one smarmy remark about you. Guess you can't say the same.
That would be the same law that supports selling your daughter into slavery, and condemns eating lobster to the same fate as homosexuality.
By your logic, because Jesus was "born" under these laws, he obviously supports them as well.
Steve, and others: In depth research indicates that being gay or lesbian has really nothing to do with religion. It is a societal issue.
I was teaching at a public school which had a remarkably top flight Drama department a few years ago. It was awesome. The Director was gay and a wonderful person... gifted, hard working, and never involved or remotely thought to be an inappropriate teacher.
When he was selected for a sabbatical providing a distinguished program for a year in Great Britain, the then Administration of our school was encouraging. While the Drama Director was gone, another teacher was assigned to assume the Director's duties temporarily.
Shortly after the Director left on his sabbatical, our school Principal who provided this was in an auto accident and he was unable to complete that school year himself during recovery.
His (also temporary) replacement, one of the Assistant Principals, was quite a different person. He became in cahoots with the Drama department's temporary Director, and they filed a formal complaint with the school board against the actual Drama Director for his “sexual preference.” This, of course, was during his absence, and the complaint speculated the “terrible” possibilities of his remaining in contact with the kids.
The unusually rapid result "demoted" the actual Director so that the "temporary" director got his job. The original Principal was unable even to be present at the presentation of this complaint because he had incurred serious infection during his recovery and was unable to return to his job; the new status quo allowed the Complaint to go into effect.
I was one of a group of teachers who were outraged by this and filed a counter complaint with our school board which unfortunately had one newly elected member who was a born-again enemy of what he called abnormal sexual preference and vetoed our complaint. The decision at that time and era by the school board had to be unanimous and so the original Complaint prevailed.
Sixteen of us, both teachers and staff, went literally on strike, protesting and formally appealing this decision and we ultimately prevailed, but the debate lasted for two whole school years and so our actions didn't accomplish fair play before the effects of the entire mess were changed to reinstate the original Director.
I wanted to share this with folks here. These times are not all that much better, I think, and part of it is utilizing language, including subtle words which have become discriminatory even in news writing.
Good Journalism (in which I took my graduate degree) has a clear distinction between News Reporting (factual, proven accounts of incidents) and Opinion (a one sided speculative position taken about the effects of such facts).
Mixing the two, News and Opinion simply does not pass muster. Yet today’s “reporters” of News. (not all, of course) too often get around that legally simply by quoting folks they agree with (“a fact”), and omitting those with whom they do not.
When the original Drama Director returned to his demotion it was horrible for him. A few of us colleagues went to each member of the school board personally, whether at their home or business to urge them one-on-one to support the original Director.
That, I suppose, is what I am trying to do now with those who think job discrimination of gays is OK. Sexual preference is not even germane to how effective an individual is in his/her work and should be ignored. And it certainly has nothing to do with religion but does have everything to do with the Laws of this country.
And, in case some might wonder if I am any other than all female (five kids, a wonderful husband), I am a woman who still hopes we might think more carefully about this issue.
Steve, you may not think I have responded appropriately to you... sorry about that. But I have one issue I want to make clear:
None of us... not so much as one... has a right to examine the private lives of others. It's none of our cotton-picking business. That includes employers, especially.
And, still, there is a caveat which I believe equally strong is fair. We also are responsible for the youngsters we work with and teach. We must NOT in any way, shape, or form. make a production of personal and private concepts that have no relationship to our jobs, while working with those youngsters.
We have a right to BE ourselves. We do not have a right to INFLICT ourselves.
shocked -
"Where does it say that? Interesting how the pseudo-christians seem to just make garbage up as they go. Is the Bible just not good enough for you? Why did your grammar choice make "himself" the proper noun instead of "Jesus"? Are you trying to display the complete lack of respect that you have for him? What is your purpose for making up your own Bible and treating Jesus with such tremendous disrespect?"
Really? You can't notice a typo of the name Jesus. Well, I am nothing if not honor bound to correct my mistakes, so yes. It should have been capitalized. But, Himself is rightly capitalized, just as He, Him, etc., would be in describing Jesus. Also, did you not notice when I wrote that most Christians believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One and the Same? Yeah, that would be the Angel of the Lord.
BSA--On the forefront of...uh, leading the way....make that dragged, kicking and screaming, into the present.
David-3994413,
So what you took out of that story is that God destroyed the cities because they were gay, not because the men wanted to RAPE ANGELS?!?!?!? Its not just that the guys were having sex with each other. They wanted to RAPE ANGELS!!!!!!!!! Yeah, God doesnt want you to rape his angels. Jesus didnt say anything about gay people. People like you make it hard to defend being a Christian.
Im for the BSA accepting gay people, but I would like to ask fellow supporters if they would be cool with men taking their young daughters on camping trips. What they might do is just what these other parents are fearing. I see a lot of hate being flung on each side. I want the BSA to accept homosexuals, but I understand the opposing viewpoint.
mguy -
Well, by your logic, you don't believe anyway, so what difference does it make in your life?
SecondSight1
Your singing to the choir here....I'm gay...What you said is my point...Has been my point all along.
Go back up in the conversation and see my posts.
Not sorry to break the bad news for some "want-to-be liberal theologians" here but it was Jesus in John 8:58 of the New Testament that declared to the Pharisees: "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" The Pharisees were ready to stone Him for saying that because Jesus claimed to be equal to God and exist in God.
Therefore, Jesus thousands of years later after the death of Abraham claimed to be God and exist before Abraham was born.
So, it was Jesus the Lord, God, and Almighty who in Genesis Chapter 18 who was standing before Abraham stating how He was about to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for their wicked behavior.
Steve-3564331 said:
"And who appointed your version God in charge of everyone?
FREEDOM OF RELIGION!!!!!!!!"
Steve, Jesus appointed this version of the Bible to me by His Spirit. You can't see that because you have not His Spirit. If you did have His Spirit, you would recognize His Truth as He put it in the Bible and you would affirm the Bible's Authority as God's own revealed revelation to humanity. The Bible in it's true context is a horrible stench to those who don't know God, that is Jesus. Claiming to know God does not mean actually knowing Him. You and others here want the Bible on your terms for the way you want God to affirm your actions, choices, etc.
God in the end will have us all on His terms, like it or not.
One more thing, the men of Sodom had no idea that the men in Lot's house were angels because there is not evidence that they announced to the men of the city that they were angels. The men of Sodom saw them as two unmarried men arriving in Sodom. I hate to put it this way, but the Sodomites saw them as fresh meat.
Severed Head
While Scouts International does not discriminate on religious reasons, BSA does. This was not always the case, but was rather a rule change made in 1985 by BSA leadership. It was made based on a strict adherence to the Boyscout oath, which includes "To my duty to God and my country." The leadership at the time interpreted that this meant agnostics and atheists could not be part of BSA, and a ban was implemented. The rule has not been changed back. Internationally, this rule has never been implemented.
We had a real problem with this when I was a kid. Every time we had a guy who wanted to be a part of our troop who didn't have any of his own kids involved, it was bad. It was just so creepy how they would leer at some of the boys; it made all of us really uncomfortable. If the new policy of BSA is to condone that type of behavior, I would not want to subject my son to that when he grows up. The adults in our group were wise enough to see how these guys acted around us and never let anyone be alone with them; so to my knowledge we never had any really bad things happen, but just the thought of what those guys were probably up to is sickening to me. I don't know why anyone would really think this would be a good idea.
To all the paranoid homophobes in this post, and their seem to be plenty...I guess by some of the things said, you must have been tryin' to have sex with each and every girl you saw when you were the age of a cub or boyscout. Just their mere presence made you have desires to molest right then and there. You may have raped a few along the way, because that's how some of the comments make gay people sound, and it's far from bein' true, believe me. Also not sure who posted this, and I'm only paraphrasing, but basically he said that there are "gay only bars...". Wrong again. I worked as a bouncer for a while, and 3 were gay bars, 1 was a lesbian bar, and they ALL welcomed anyone who came in and behaved. They all checked your I.D. at the door, but NONE checked your sexuality before being allowed in. They didn't discriminate, but you apparently do, due to ignorance, intolerance and outright....Well, let me put it this way. Those who usually scream the loudest against something like this, are more than likely tryin' to cover something up that either THEY'VE done in the past, or think about tryin' it at least. You're obsessed with "gayness", so go see a shrink. I'm gay, was in the Scouts and guess what? Never a problem, and that was back in the '60s, where the homophobes in here still seem to be stuck mentally. Catch up with the rest of the world into the 21st century. You shouldn't assume that gay people live another day just for sex, especially with a kid, anymore than I should assume that all straight men sexually abuse their own or somebody else's children like the straight guy that lived 2 houses down from me years ago. It came out that he'd raped his stepdaughter over 80 times!!! Do the straight screamin' homophobes on here all do that? Come on, be honest. Hopefully none of ya did, and it's the same with gay people. We don't live just for sex or to prey on children. Personally, I like to hunt, I own and rebuild guns, fish, go on days long camping trips generally on my own, work on my vintage 71 Chevy pickup, I've got long hair and a beard, wear jeans, tshirts and boots most o' the time, carry a Buck 119 and listen to classic rock. Oh...and there's not a pink shirt in my house. So at the end o' the day, we're not so different except sexual preference. IF the BSA does allow gays into the organization and the kids don't have to hide it and lie about it, good for them, and I promise ya, the world isn't gonna end, and we'll still hear more stories about sexual molestation comin' from the straight men in the Catholic church than from the Boyscouts. Kids should be taught tolerance
azdrl
Then you must not be a very good Christian, considering one of the primary tenants of your faith is to "spread the word" and "save" souls from a supposed eternal damnation. Mark 16:15-16 and Matthew 28:18-20 both speak of your duty to "spread the word". So, if you do not try and convert people, you are blatantly rejecting a direct order from your savior.
And that is the catch, isn't it? If you do not "spread the word", you are not fulfilling your duty as a good Christian. If you do "spread the word", you are a hypocrite for complaining about other people spreading their lifestyle, when you do the same.
Because you make the exact same mistake as every other religious supporter arguing science. You hold all scientific evidence to such high scrutiny, that you refuse to accept any of it because of a philosophical point of the inherent inability to reach 100% proof. However, you then turn around and accept a story as truth, based on absolutely ZERO evidence. And you justify your belief by comparing a story of ZERO evidence to science, because neither can be proven with 100% certainty.
The problem is, your logic dictates that ANY story can be considered true. Star Wars is said to have happened "a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away." How do you know that is not true? If 100% certainty is the requirement for "truth", and science dictates that nothing can be proven with 100% certainty, than the story in Star Wars is just as valid as the story in the bible. Thus, according to your logic, all possibilities must be acknowledged.
MrBurns
I don't understand what your trying to say here:
If it is a suggestion of Pedophilia...be careful with that subject as we all know or should know the vast majority of these sick people identify themselves as Heterosexual.
The second thing is as was pointed out earlier...There are protocols for overnights within the BSA.
David -
"P.S. Steve, you do look the part in your "Brokeback Mountain" hat"
Wow. You know, you had me on a lot of points that you made, but you just blew it with this. Jesus taught love, not hate. Love the sinner, hate the sin is the concept, not make smarmy remarks about someone or their chosen lifestyle.
David-3994413
Oh please talk to the hand.
Please read the Bill of Rights....Under the part that talks about Religion.
That was my point.
You have the right to view your God...and I have the right to view my God...as we both understand God.
No where is it written that Christianity is the only right religion in the USA.
mguy -
Seems to me you are doing plenty of word spreading to yourself if I read all the quotes and knowledge you have on the subject. To answer your question, however, just exactly what is it we are talking about? Having this conversation with you has done exactly the intent that you say I am supposed to be doing. I am spreading the word...as you say. It is giving you and I the oppurtunity to discuss Jesus, at some length I might add. Now, what you do with that knowledge is completely up to you. I cannot force belief on you, or anyone.
MidAmericanIndependent
Your talking about an adult wanting to join BSA as whatever.....That is a different subject than the debate.
Chuck-295246
Thank You for your support on this issue.
mguy,
Funny you should mention elven teachings in Middle Earth as part of your argument.
J.R.R. Tolkien, who wrote The Lord of the Rings, and The Hobbit, and created Middle Earth was actually a very devout Catholic who converted the skeptic atheist C.S. Lewis (who later wrote The Narnia Chronicles among many other books).
Tolkien created a fantasy world complete with a history and language, and is considered one of the foremost scholars of the past century.
And yet Tolkien firmly believed his Christian faith was real and based on truth, and did not confuse his fantasy writing with the holy scriptures.
He knew the difference.
The Boy Scouts have lost a lot of credibility with their covering up over 2000 scout masters who sexually abused boys. The name seems pretty accurate when you think about it, they scout out boys for their pedophile organization!
Steve -
"You have the right to view your God...and I have the right to view my God...as we both understand God."
We might not have a whole lot in common, but the point you made here is absolutely true. That is what freedom of choice, and religion, in our country is all about. Like I was saying to mguy, what you do with the knowledge you have is entirely up to you.
as an EAGLE SCOUT ('99) with a gay brother who is also an EAGLE SCOUT ('02) all I have to say is CONGRATULATIONS on the progress my beloved organization has made in the past 7 months. It is endearing to see that the national council is finally considering the voice of its members in overturning a dated, discriminatory policy.
In fact, several days ago I wrote an email to the local council (who had just solicited donations fro me) about this ban saying that until they reexamined their stance, they would receive no support dollars from me. Many of my peers, fellow scouts and leaders, have been doing the same for months. As clearly stated in the article, this is a grassroots organization, and they respond to what happens on a local level. This is not "giving in to an agenda," this is what we, the members, wish for our organization.
It is extremely sad, and borderline pathetic, that so many out of touch individuals would make negative (not to mention misinformed) comments about this announcement and its subject matter. I'd be willing to bet that many, if not all, of the negative posters here have zero connection with Scouting and are just spouting their personal bigotry....
We will see the end of the Boy Scouts within 20 years if they allow this change to take place. Plain and simple the majority will still believe that this is not what is right and will simply not allow thier children to be a part of it. I most certainly would not. If you are straight and have any religious beliefs (any not just christian ) you will not want someone who is openly gay influancing your child in that direction.
Avenger, Scouts International and almost all of its members made this change years ago, with BSA being one of the very few holdouts. Unlike the BSA, the others also allow agnostics and atheists. Scouts International is doing just fine. And how do you influence someone to be gay? It doesn't work that way.
Steve... Of course you are correct... totally... I am trying to get folks here to see a broader perspective.
I agree with your posts. And I worked hard to protect the vastly superior gay teacher who was harmed by jealous, mediocre people who had made an issue of his preference.
They.were.dead.wrong... to do that.
btw... The talented director whom they thought they had gotten rid of, did get empathy by, I think, the publicity that escalated when the two culprits hurting him actually made the whole thing known all though the town and state by their behavior... and they not only failed to keep their jobs, but we ... our district ... lost our wonderful, talented original gay Director when he chose a far superior job from the many offered him.
When I identified myself as simply a female, I wanted those who were gay to realize folks don't have to be gay to want to protect gay rights... and bring their talent to the youngsters of Boy Scouts.
The staff which includes gays is essential to help those boys who walk a different path stay positive about themselves.
Do the Girl Scouts of America have the same stance?
No, they don't. They are two completely different organizations. In fact, the GSA just welcomed a transgendered child into their organization. The BSA could learn a lot from the GSA. The world is moving forward. Get with it, or get left behind.
http://blogs.babycenter.com/mom_stories/boy-scouts-gay-ban-07182012-girl-scouts-gay-policy/
With polcies like this, I'm half surprised the WOSM hasn't sanctioned the BSA. The folks who run the IntraAmericas office down in Panama, which oversees all Scouting organizations in the Americas must get frustrated by these homophobic and anti-atheist/agnostic policies, when none of their other members have them.
azdrl
Then why are you opposed to homosexuals being accepted into BSA, or given equal rights? They are simply spreading the knowledge that they exist... and they do NOT have a goal to increase their ranks, as Christians do.
But, as you stated, neither they nor Christians can "force belief on you, or anyone"... so what is the issue?
Are you upset with the possible decision that BSA may make? They were simply given knowledge that certain donors may stop donating, and that certain members do not agree with their stance. Again, as you stated, "what they do with that knowledge is completely up to them".
By your own statements, you should support homosexuals... they are simply spreading knowledge and letting people decide what to do with that knowledge. Seems your convictions contradict each other. Or you would like to prevent their ability to "spread knowledge", while maintaining that right yourself.
SecondSight1
Thank you for your support. I have been a Child, Civil Rights, HIV/AIDS, and LBGT advocate for a very long time. I have volunteered and worked in each of those areas, and have seen first hand what can happen when any one of those areas are violated by someone or a group.
When it comes to children's issues I get a little on the testy side with adults. These are kids and need to be in a nurturing milieu, where they feel safe, loved and respected. Not poisoned by hate, intolerance, and fear.
mguy-478
BRAVO!!!!
MmmMmmBeer
You do your brother honor by standing beside him, It tells me that you have benefited from the BSA Code of Honor......Thank You
Steve-3564331,
And most pedophiles dont identify as pedophiles either. There are gay pedophiles, just as their are straight ones. And Im not saying they are correct, just that a parent will be nervous of a gay man with their young boy, just as a parent would be nervous about a guy with their young girl. I didnt know that they had these policies. They obviously dont always work since these young boys have still been molested, so that is where people get these fears. They dont want their sons abused. Again, Im for gay rights, but I see the opposing side as legit since they want to protect their sons from gay pedophiles, same as people not wanting their daughters alone with men. Pedophiles ruin it for the vastly upstanding gay community, same as they ruin it for men who try to teach girls sports.
azdrl66 - I'm certainly not one to slight anyone for a typo. I do find the slip interesting, since the name seems to mean so much to you.
That certainly wasn't the case in the Christianity I was raised in. In fact, it was considered blasphemy to make Jesus, the son of God, an equal to God...referring, of course, back to those pesky ten commandments.
The point being that maybe, once the Christians have actually figured the Bible out among themselves, they may have something to offer humanity. Until then it is simply a bunch of different people making up random things on their own that contribute very little to society as a whole.
I did also find it interesting that you admonished "david" for his "smarmy" comment and then slipped in your own "chosen lifestyle" smarmy comment. Apparently, practicing what you preach isn't a part of your sect's belief either.
MrBurns ...... Here FYI.... I googled
Facts About Homosexuality and Child
Molestation
In recent years, antigay activists have routinely asserted that gay people are
child molesters. This argument was often made in debates about the Boy Scouts of
America's policy to exclude gay scouts and scoutmasters. More recently, in the
wake of Rep. Mark Foley's resignation from the US House of Representatives in
2006, antigay activists and their supporters seized on the scandal to revive
this canard.
The distinction between a victim's gender and a perpetrator's sexual orientation
is important because many child molesters don't really have an adult sexual
orientation. They have never developed the capacity for mature sexual
relationships with other adults, either men or women. Instead, their sexual
attractions focus on children – boys, girls, or children of both sexes.
Using the fixated-regressed distinction, Groth and Birnbaum (1978) studied
175 adult males who were convicted in Massachusetts of sexual assault against a
child. None of the men had an exclusively homosexual adult sexual orientation.
83 (47%) were classified as "fixated;" 70 others (40%) were classified as
regressed adult heterosexuals; the remaining 22 (13%) were classified as
regressed adult bisexuals. Of the last group, Groth and Birnbaum observed that
"in their adult relationships they engaged in sex on occasion with men as well
as with women. However, in no case did this attraction to men exceed
their preference for women....There were no men who were primarily sexually
attracted to other adult males..." (p.180).
In yet another approach to studying adult sexual attraction to children, some
Canadian researchers observed how homosexual and heterosexual adult men
responded to slides of males and females of various ages (child, pubescent, and
mature adult). All of the research subjects were first screened to ensure that
they preferred physically mature sexual partners. In some of the slides shown to
subjects, the model was clothed; in others, he or she was nude. The slides were
accompanied by audio recordings. The recordings paired with the nude models
described an imaginary sexual interaction between the model and the subject. The
recordings paired with the pictures of clothed models described the model
engaging in neutral activities (e.g., swimming). To measure sexual arousal,
changes in the subjects' penis volume were monitored while they watched the
slides and listened to the audiotapes. The researchers found that homosexual
males responded no more to male children than heterosexual males responded to
female children (Freund et al., 1989).
Science cannot prove a negative. Thus, these studies do not prove that
homosexual or bisexual males are no more likely than heterosexual males to
molest children. However, each of them failed to prove the alternative
hypothesis that homosexual males are more likely than heterosexual men to molest
children or to be sexually attracted to children or adolescents.
Other researchers have taken different
approaches, but have similarly failed to find a connection between homosexuality
and child molestation. Dr. Carole Jenny and her colleagues reviewed 352 medical
charts, representing all of the sexually abused children seen in the emergency
room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children's hospital during a one-year
period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992). The molester was a gay or lesbian
adult in fewer than 1% in which an adult molester could be identified – only 2
of the 269 cases (Jenny et al., 1994).
Reading though these comments, among those that oppose the BSA admitting gays are some of the most crass, lewd and unintelligent I have ever read. Ironically your hateful commentary makes an even stronger case to admit gays. See, us gay adults are used to laughing ignorant insults off because we know they are motivated only by malice, fear and a deep-seated and underlying attraction to the same gender that all of us carry to some extent according to Alfred Kinsey, Shere Hite. and Masters & Johnson. It's the kids you hurt. The kids who are not even at the stage of developing their own sexual identities yet. And you call gay people pedophiles? Please.
In response to comment #1.49, it is laughable that you would want a "straights only club" since the closet cases ALWAYS say they are straight while bashing gay people. At least with gay people you get an honest answer to the question of sexual identity. How can you have a straights only club when there is no such thing as 'straights only'?
Steve - thank you for all you do!!
MrBurns - If you are worried about gay pedophiles, then I would like to pose an honest question to you. How do you justify banning a lesbian den mother like Jennifer Tyrrell, who has NO interest sexually in men regardless of their age?
My point is this, a blanket discriminatory policy based on the fear of a remote possibility hurts everybody and protects very few.
mguy -
Going down fighting, I see. Funny thing...you said you weren't trying to push your agenda on me, and that is exactly what you are trying to do. Don't know if I have ever seen anyone twist words and take things out of context the way you do. Fess up...you are trying to get me on your side. I notice that you again brushed aside all I wrote before that, about spreading the word, etc. All you focused on was the last line, "Now what you do, etc., etc...." That is like reading the last page of a book. Sure, you know what happens, but you don't know how the story got to that point, and it just leaves you confused. Tell you what...you have your beliefs, I have mine. Friendly advice, however. The discussion seems so much more involved when you argue your own point, and not just cast the few remarks that you pick out back to the other person and say that "by your own remarks, you should take my side". Trust me, I know what I said, and I know how I said it. This is where that reading comprehension thing that you brought up comes into affect. It's all about context, and where to apply it. Have a good evening. :)
So here's what will happen with this decision if it goes forward knowing the litigious nature of our society.
The Boy Scouts of America will make this change and force decisions regarding gay members and leaders on to the local area councils, troops, and groups. Certain councils & troops will move immediately to allow LGBT leaders and member scouts. This will force all local councils & troops to have to publically decide whether they will allow homosexuals to participate or not in order to clarify their position. Most of the faith based, religious groups will have to formally adopt a set of rules expressly not allowing homosexuals to participate. Since faith based troops represent more than half of all scouts, this will be a LARGE group of troops adopting rules not allowing LGBTs to participate.
Then what will happen is that one of the troops allowing for LGBT participation will have an openly gay member (either scout or leader) that relocates to another area where most of the troops & councils do not allow for openly gay participation. This member will not be able to participate like he was able to participate before, and he will sue based on discrimination. His argument will be that if he was a member in good standing while living in Los Angeles, or Denver, or Seattle, or Portland and had full rights of participation there as allowed for by BSA, then the local organizations (faith based, religious in nature) in Utah, Idaho, Texas, or Georgia who belong to the same BSA are discriminating against his rights by adopting an express set of rules against his participation.
Chances are that one of the appellate courts will side with his argument. One of the main reasons that the BSA won their supreme court decision 12 years ago, was that as a private organization it had been clear and consistent on the official stance of not allowing homosexuals to participate and therefore it had the right to continue to do so.
Once this stance is changed, and you have large percentages in geographic areas of the U.S. that will allow participation vs. large demographic & geographic areas of the U.S. that will not allow it the BSA's argument is greatly weakened I believe.
One thing that the courts almost never uphold is inconsistency on a rights issue. Here is the argument to the BSA, "You allow members of the LGBT community to actively and openly participate in troops and area councils in large areas such as California, Oregon, Washington, and Nevada, but through locally made decisions do not allow such participation in nearly every geographic region of the states of Utah, Idaho, & Texas?" Then research will be presented showing that 35 to 50% of all scout troops in California allow for LGBT participation while less than 3% of the entire state of Utah allows for LGBT participation. And that will be the end of BSA's new policy. It will be declared unconstitutional at that point. You cannot selectively discriminate no matter what your argument about local control happens to be. Then all scout troops regardless of affiliation will have allow for such participation.
Then I predict you will see the BSA splinter. A number of churches who make up huge numbers of troops & members will withdraw and form their own, internal version of scouting. They just won't call it "scouting". They'll call it "pathfinding" or some such thing, and BSA membership will drop dramatically.
Maybe I'm wrong?
The day they allow gay scout leaders will be the end of boy scouts. No young male in my family will be going on a camping trip with a gay scout leader. I been to San Francisco, seen one of thier gay pride parades, no way am I letting a young child be influenced by them. I'm not anti-gay but I'm also for them keeping thier sex lives out of our face and out of our chldren's lives.
shocked -
Ah, I see. You are a person who believes that homosexuality is not chosen, but you are born that way. The comment was not smarmy at all. I do believe that it is a chosen lifestyle. I will use science, since that seems to be something a lot of people put their faith in. Can you name me the scientist who found the homosexual gene? For that matter, can you name me the scientist who found the heterosexual gene? No? Hmmm...sounds like a choice, to me. But the point I am trying to make is that it is a personal freedom. Your comment concerning the Christianity you were taught not believing in the Trinity is baffling, considering it has been a belief since Christianity has been in existence. Christ Himself has said that He and the Father are one. Something tells me that you are not as learned as you are pretending to be. You certainly like to twist and put your own spin on things, don't you? Gee, that never happens here...
@ jake2247 Post 1.4
Do I detect a little hate in your tone? Is it because they are trying to preserve their ways or that they don't like the gay way that pisses you off so much?
What will happen when and if they do let them in and someone decides to try to change your son?
The only "haters" are the intolerant people attacking the BSA, actually. The BSA is perfectly content to let other people live however they choose, and aren't out there attacking them for it. People who decide they want to be members of the BSA have to comport to and comply with the established values and standards of the BSA, the same as joining any other organization. Don't like or agree with the values and standards? Then don't join the organization. It's that simple.
None of what the haters are saying is based in fact, it's all conjecture.
If it was fact they would be able to sight some creditabe source, but they can't.
An you thought Catholic Priests were bad, just wait.
Sadly, I think your analysis is correct. The BSA could very well be about to destroy itself with this proposal. I know that I would personally abandon any support for the BSA if they violate the Scout Oath and Scout Law just to appease the hatemongers attacking them.
What if they want to change your child? What do you think the whole idea of this push for gays is about? Of course thay want to change your child.
Dav1bg
I'm gay, Married to my husband and we have children. They are adopted. The only thing we wanted to change in them was the hurt from being abused before they came to us.
We have no intrests in converting children into LGBT. They are their own people. If one of our children is gay...So be it....If they are straight...So be it, it doesn't mean we stop loving them or caring about them.
Just like You, we want to protect our children from anyone that would do them harm.
I might also suggest you read my posting (1.25) It was the first site that came up. I cut it and paste it here without reading it.....I like facts.
azdr - You are not a biologist, as evident by your statements. As a microbiologist and an EAGLE SCOUT myself (who has a gay brother, who is also an Eagle Scout) it offends me you invoke the name of "science" to justify discrimination.
I invite you to wikipedia gene regulation and cascades before you comment further on the "choice vs. born with it" debate. You postulate that homosexuality cannot possibly be genetic because we have not yet identified a "gay gene." While a single gene codes a single protein (and we do know what most of these are, by the way, thanks to the Human Genome Project nearly two decades ago) it takes hundreds, if not thousands of genes expressed at different levels regulated by a cascade of environmental and hormonal triggers to create a complex organ like the brain. Heck, they just recently figured out the gene panel responsible for eye color in humans - that is certainly not a choice yet took nearly two decades to research this seemingly simple gene expression. Add to the fact that our brains function largely on electric and chemical signals which are NOT expressed by genes -and the argument for or against a "gay gene" pretty much flies out the window.
Now, let me bring up living with - growing up beside - a homosexual person my entire life. I will begin by saying the majority of the time that we spent in Scouting growing up we were at an age where there was no sexual identity...but I digress. Without going into specifics, looking back on our childhoods we were two completely different kids from the earliest age I could remember. Our interests in toys, movies, activities, friends, were complete opposite. All of the "odd" things I remember then, make complete sense now that we know he is gay. More correctly, I should say, "now that we know he has always been gay." Implying that since his earliest days, dare I say from birth, he has been gay. It was not a choice he suddenly woke up one morning and made when he was a teenager. It was ALWAYS, from before pre-school, his orientation. It was ALWAYS him.
Nearly everyone I interact with in-person who holds anti-gay views has changed their tune when I ask them this one question: "Do you know anyone who is gay?" Typically the answer is yes, their relative or their friend in grade school, or the neighbor kid down the street. Typically that is followed by a statement along the lines of "we always knew that boy ain't right." And that is ALWAYS followed with the light-bulb realization that being gay is an inborn trait, not a decision.
I will leave you with this - why would any individual freely choose a "lifestyle" that could potentially cause them to experience great prejudice, hatred, even bodily harm/death? It doesn't seem probable.
MmmMmmBeer
HIGH FIVES!!!
Family night.... time for everyone in the kitchen to fix dinner.
Be kind to one another, learn tolerance, patience & understand, then share it.
As a fellow Eagle Scout (1992), I have no qualms saying that you are completely off course with your comments. Multiple elements of the Scout Oath and Scout Law are incompatible with homosexual activity. If you didn't know that fact long before you attained the rank of Eagle, then your parents, Troop leadership, and church, all did you a grave disservice.
For the BSA to alter its policy as proposed, it would violate those elements of the Scout Oath and Scout Law, and thus cease to be an organization worthy of respect. If you respect the BSA and believe in its values and standards, then you cannot support the efforts to make it violate its principles.
It's time to ask yourself what you believe. Do you believe in having a duty to God, following the Scout Oath, obeying the Scout Law, and upholding the BSA's values and standards as you swore to do when you became an Eagle Scout? Or do you believe in the secular "anything goes" agenda being pressed upon the BSA? You cannot choose both. Those who choose the latter are in violation of their oaths as an Eagle Scout.
Guess that is the end of BSA. Sexuality shouldn't even be a topic of discussion, sexuality shouldn't be a topic of discussion. Gays make so many demands and insist everybody agree with them. It isn't good enough not to live and let live. They are now trying to control everything we believe in and tell us that we are wrong.
Wish they could be shoved back in that closet.
Ahhh, the tired "born that way" argument. For the sake of argument, let's say that you're correct that some people are born with the tendency to be physically attracted to those of the same sex. However, does that make it any less wrong for that person to ACT on that tendency? No. Some people are born with any number of other conditions and predilections that God and/or society has deemed undesirable and/or immoral to act upon. We each have our crosses to bear in life. It is what we do about it, and how we conduct ourselves that matters.
If you believe, as the Scout Oath says, that you have a duty to God, and to be morally straight, as well as the Scout Law says to be clean (in body, thought, and deed), and reverent, then for you to engage in or endorse homosexual activity is wrong. You can certainly respect the right of others to do so, without agreeing with their position. Respecting the rights and opinions of others does not equate to, nor require, agreeing with their positions or values. You have a right to disagree. However, you swore to uphold and live by the principles and values of the BSA when you became a member, and more specifically, when you became an Eagle Scout--or have you forgotten? Either you stand with the BSA in upholding traditional values and the elements of the Scout Oath and the Scout Law, or you do not. There is no middle ground.
Hey now be honest, most of you guys commenting here know you had the best sex you ever had while you were in the Boy Scouts. I would bet most of you had better sex when you were in the Cub Scouts. And I would bet good money, some of you got kicked out of the Scouts for eating Brownies. I would bet that most of you had sex before you were 9 or 10. And I would bet there are photos of you on the internet someplace. Hey, that is probably what you are so upset about.
By the way, PatriotJane, how is the lezbo life treating you?
Well, it appears that there really is no boundary for high morality and ethics. The gay agenda just cannot leave ANYTHING or ANY institute alone. A Gay MAN that is attracted to MEN is going to be in the company of young men and the Gay agenda sees no problem with this. Personally, I do not put myself in a position where I am alone with the women because I am ATTRACTED to women!
I won't leave my boy alone with someone that is attracted to men.
So destroy another great institue in the name of progress. It is destruction when you are pushing your agenda rather then thinking of the good for all.
No more BSA shortly because the agenda has chosen to destroy this institute. So when they do go down, it is because ot the Gay agenda and NOTHING else. Be proud of yourselves "Sarcasim".
azdrl66 - So you would have been one of those Christians that would have burned anyone at the stake for claiming the world is round because it had yet to be proven otherwise? Of course you are.
What you are also saying is that homosexuals should be banned from the BSA because, essentially, you refuse to believe anything other than the fact that the world is flat.
How is it fair that your opinion, on an issue that you admittedly know absolutely nothing about, should be followed and that your conclusion, derived from an even less proven collection of ancient fables, is the only true answer and justifies discriminating against and banning your fellow humans?
I wouldn't want my kids to be exposed to a scout master or leader who was gay, for fear of what happened with Sandusky and the kids he molested. I can see that parents are going to take their kids out of the scouts if this proposal meets success. Those Eagle Scouts who turned their badges back in because they want gays to be in are just plain stupid and never should have been awarded the Eagle Scout rating.. This is going to destroy the Scouts nationwide. Good bye to another good organization America!
Steve, I don't know where you got your explanation of the Scout Oath, but this is from my copy of The Official Boy Scout Handbook:
THE MEANING OF THE SCOUT OATH OR PROMISE.
When you pledge yourself to an oath or a promise you must know the meaning of it. So read carefully the paragraphs that follow. They will help you understand.
On my honor...The men who founded our country more than 200 years ago had great faith. They believed that every human being had the God-given rights of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." They fought to gain those rights for all of us. They pledged to each other their lives, their fortunes, and their "sacred honor." To them, their "sacred honor" was their loyalty to the high ideals they had set for themselves.
As a Scout and a good American, you must hold your honor sacred. When you pledge yourself to do something on your honor it means that you will do your utmost to live up to the high standards you set for yourself.
...I will do my best...Scouting does not expect you to become the perfect boy. It does expect you to strive toward the highest goals you can achieve. Not every boy has the ability to get high marks in school or to become a star athlete. But every boy has within him the power to do his best. That is what Scouting asks of you.
...To do my duty to God...Your parents and religious leaders teach you to know and love God, and the ways in which you can serve Him. By following these teachings in your daily life, you do your duty to God as a Scout.
...and my country...As you look back into our country's history, you learn about men and women who toiled to make America great. Many of them gave their lives for it. They built it into what it is today. It is your duty to carry their work forward by working for our country's best interests. You can do this by obeying its laws. You can do this by working to solve some of its vast challenges.
...and to obey the Scout Law...The 12 points of the Scout Law are not only rules for the game of Scouting, they are also rules that apply to your whole life. The Scout Law sets forth ideals for ways to act. In obeying the Scout Law you will find yourself growing into a gentleman and a respected citizen.
...To help other people at all times;...There are many people who need you. Your young shoulders can help them carry their burdens. A cheery smile and a helpful hand may be all that is necessary. It will serve to make life easier for someone, old or young, who needs help. By helping whenever help is needed and by doing a Good Turn daily, you prove yourself a Scout. In that way you do your part to make this a happier world.
...To keep myself physically strong,...You owe it to yourself to take care of your body. Protect it and develop it so that it will serve you well throughout your life. That does not mean building bulging muscles. It means building strength and endurance. Scouting will help you develop and keep a strong body.
...mentally awake...You also owe it to yourself to develop your mind. Strive to increase your knowledge. Make the best possible use of your abilities. By being mentally awake you will live more completely in one day than a dull boy does in a month. With an alert attitude, you will get more out of life.
...and morally straight. And you owe it to yourself to aim to become a man of strong character. Be thoughtful of the rights of others. Be clean in speech and actions. Be faithful in your religious beliefs. Your life as a Scout will take you along the trail that leads to strong, self-reliant manhood.
I really don't think the BSA will cave in the way people think. Organizations can have leaders who are gay as well as scouts that are gay but will have to live by the Scout Oath, laws etc. As a parent, before I would allow my child to join a scout troop I would first talk to the head of the organization to find out thier position on gay leadership. I would want to know what kind of men are leading the scout troop. As a father I would volunteer to go on scout campouts, and other activities. If I would find out in the interview with the organization head that the leader or leaders are gay, it would be my decision to take my son elseware where I would be more comfortable.
Who is hating ? You point out the BSA is haters because they stand by values long before this Liberal bigot double standard storm is sweeping across america ? You think its ok to keep pressuring a private organization to have to change their views to accept your views ? How would you like if we all came to your private house and did things to change your way of life to make it different and uncomfortable ?
Also why would people want to join the BSA if they felt so against it ? Why not go make your own organization called the GSA or the LGBTSA ?
Do you know the saying birds of a feather flock together ?
Nothing Good will come of this if the BSA changes their policy. They will see a reduction in their numbers im sure, and resignation of their leaders im sure too. Then the BSA will be a shell of itself , another company that was bullied, and pressured until it finally gave in to the main stream liberals.
If your all so into peoples rights, then how about the BSA having a right to have its set of beliefs protected. Instead you all want to change everyone and everything. America is not going forwards, and society is making a huge cultural shift.
In time, this America will collapse, like any other great nation. Im not saying this because of the events of the BSA, but because of society not standing by any set of standards. If standards are always being changed , then there are no limitations. If there are no limitations, then anything can happen.
I wish more people would respect peoples beliefs and standards, and not feel they need to bully and push their agendas on others.
Sandusky was a respected coach at a famous public university, not a Scoutmaster. If Sandusky had been a Scoutmaster and the BSA rules were followed, he would never have been alone with any of those little boys that he damaged. The two cases have very little to do with one another.
azdrl
What agenda am I pushing? I just like to point out the pure hypocrisy of Christians, by using their own biblical verses and logic. The reason you accuse me of pushing an agenda is because you have no argument to my last comment. So, as typical of those who have lost an argument, you complete ignore everything I said and accuse me of pushing some "mystical" agenda that does not exist.
The bottom line is, anything and everything you complain that homosexuals do to push a supposed "agenda", YOU Christians have done the same thing, ten times over. You accuse them of pushing a lifestyle on you, while your own scripture calls for you to push your lifestyle on others. You accuse them of flaunting their lifestyle, while everything your religion does is an entire "hey look at me" flaunt... hell, you even have bells on the buildings where you meet, just so the entire community knows where you are and what you are doing.
You claim that you are merely "spreading knowledge", yet you condemn homosexuals for doing the exact same thing. People like you try, unsuccessfully, to associate homosexuals with child molesters, while your own religion has documented cases of rampant child molestation. You claim that you have a right to your belief, yet spend your time trying to deny that exact same right to homosexuals.
At the end of the day, you are nothing more than a hypocrite. Plain and simple. You complain about their agenda while pushing your own. The bottom line is, you are doing the EXACT same thing you complain about. So I am pointing YOU out for what you TRULY are.... a hypocrite. I am not pushing an agenda, I am not trying to change your mind, I am not trying to change your belief... I am showing what you really are. That's all.
I could care less what you believe, but I will take the opportunity to point out a hypocrite when I see one. I am not trying to change you, I am trying to show everyone your true colors and nullify your argument.
Now go ahead and try to tell me how YOU knocking on doors, trying to convert people, is not "forcing a lifestyle"... yet two homosexuals simply existing on the same planet as you is a "force" of their lifestyle.
How interesting that you've brought up the Constitution. The BSA, as an organization, has the right to establish its religious value system and say what constitutes a "duty to God," being "morally straight," "clean," and "reverent" for the purposes of its membership, and it established those standards and values decades ago. The BSA also has the right to freedom of assembly, the right to have people who share its established values and standards to join the organization, and to exclude those who do not.
These attacks on the BSA and its upholding of traditional values are violations of the rights of the BSA and its members, by hateful people who do not share those values yet wish to join the organization anyway.
@Dick-2100935
It isn't the gays in the boy scouts that is the problem, there have always been gays in the organization. The only thing being changed is gay behavior is now allowed. If anyone believes gay behavior doesn't translate to pedophilia then why can't straight men participate in girl scouts without women being around? Straight men participating in girls activity doesn't translate into pedophilia either.
As I understand it an adult male homosexual can lead a bunch of boys into the woods for a stay and a straight man can lead a bunch of girls into the woods for a stay. This is going to be very interesting and lawyers are watching closer than anyone else.
No Dick,
Homosexuals are not the problem and have never been the problem. The problem is Pedophiles and closeted homophobic men who have been conditioned through a repressive society to hide natural feelings in order to function in a Heterosexual society as a bonified member of that society.
Per a news story here on the same venue was a list of such homophobic Heteros.
They are all Republican law makers and Religious leaders that have been VERY proactive in attacking Homosexuals through the auspices of their offices.
The list is as follows:
Roy Ashburn, Jim West, Larry Craig, Ed Schrock, Robert Allen, Mark foley, Phillip Hinkle, Caleb Dougles Hess Pastor Eddie Long, George Rekers, Troy King, Richard Curtis, Ted Haggard, Glenn Murphy, David Dreier, Bruce Barclay and the Everlovin' favorite of boy's butts everywhere according to sports fans, Sandusky.
google all or some to read about their actions when they think no one is watching.
The reason people like these can take advantage of children is that the secrecy associated with shame and power keeps the children silent because of the stigma associated with social shame attached. When people place other adults on a pedestal, they empower the person to take excesses and abuse the power. The children who fall victim are suppressed from telling the truth because they fear and have guilt associated with the sexual act.
If an "out of the closet"homosexual were a scout leader, he would automatically know that his action would be watched and would never jeopardise his position in the community. however, the closeted pedophiles can NEVER come out into the open because they will never be accepted as a part of the society because of their predatory nature.
Lazarus
While I do not agree with discriminating against people because of their sexuality, I also do not believe that a persons choice of sexuality should be rammed down upon people who for religious or personal reasons do not believe that this is a thing they want their children exposed to. I hear now that Obama's education Czar is trying to force schools starting in first grade to teach the children about different choices that people make with their own sexuality. This I have a problem with, morality is not the responsibility of the state or nation to teach my child, it is mine. While I will teach my child to be accepting of all regarding their choice, and if in the future I found out that this was my child's own choice, I would love and accept him the same, it is and should always be the right of the parent to teach morality and not someone else.
"Republican heads they are exploding, old enough to chose but not for votin' "
Interesting, the boy scouts having many corporate sponsors decides to cave in. Hmmmm. Is it about the money, fine organization. Morally straight if we have enough funds to pay our bills, halo slips a little bit when money is involved.
@David-3994413
David, I love it when Bible thumping Experts come forward to press their very limited knowledge in History and the Bible. Read some history about the Hebrews and Abraham and you will see that they were anomadic people that had herds of livestock and followed pasture wherever it led them. Unfortunately the grass was greener on the side of the hill where Sodom and Gomorrah was located. Lott took a liking to the places and Abraham did not like that much. It is written that God called for the destruction of sodonm And gomorrah, but as more detailed history shows us, we can safely assume that it was Abraham and not God that destroyed the city states. Abraham buile a place to sacrifice blood to God, that is the debth of his conviction. Abraham set the stage for moses to follow in the presumed promise that god promised the lands of Canaan to the Jews.
The truth is that history will show us that the lands of the "Fertile Cresent" has always been under constant war fare and the same is true today. It is difficult to survive in a place where there is limited water and sand. Abraham, by all accounts in the Bible speak of how wealthy and powerful Abraham was and they did have a means to record history. Abraham was like Moses. when he said "It is God's Will", he meant to say it is my will because I am the chosen of God. Disobey and you will die.
Lazarus
Not even close mguy. Yes the bible teaches to go out and preach the gospel , but its to those who choose to hear it. I can set up a stand in the middle of Central park and start shouting things about the bible. People who choose to listen will stay and listen, people who choose not to listen, will just walk away. I will not chase after them, or keep bugging them every day. There is a HUGE difference between presenting the bible to someone, and having something FORCED upon you.
So now lets look at the BSA. First its a private organization, it is not bound, nor legally obliged to adhere to any government laws. The BSA rights have already been upheld from past supreme court cases. So the members, parents, kids, leaders, the big guys at the top of the BSA, all of them or most of them did not want the entire gay agenda knocking down their doors. BUT typical LGBT drama is always an after result when they dont get their way. So they keep pressing, and hounding, pressuring until they get their way.
So mguy, by your view, I truly hope you can see the difference between who is truly pushing who around. A person who just asks someone if they want to hear the good news of the bible ? The person they ask, can say, Go F off, or no thank you. OK then Christian walks away. Gays come to the BSA, the BSA says we dont think its in our best interest for the organization to have people who desire same sex. We dont feel that should be part of our group, go away.. But no.. thats not good enough, the LGBT comes back with pressure and bullying until the BSA now gives in.
How would you like if Christians kept pounding on your door day and night, every day, for days, weeks, months , years, until you say, ok I will let you in. Im sure you would never do such a thing.
So please Mguy tell me how you can say what you did ?
Good grief, is that what the main stream liberal psychology classes teach these days ? It amazes me why people never challenge such rubbish any more. I think the society is becoming more like lemmings every day. No one can think for themselves any longer. The main stream view says anything, and people dont question it, they just say, ok sounds good.. Geesh
They are standing up for what they believe. They believe in collecting monetary donations from people, corporations, and other nonprofits. Additionally the sales numbers for uniforms , badges, books neckerchiefs etc was way down.
There are still a lot of us who speak up for our religious beliefs, Marmaduke. But, yes, there are a lot of people too intimidated to speak up and rightly so. The gay community threatens and slanders those who don't agree with their views. For the most part, as is evident in this forum, gays are an atheistic and often hostile group.
It seems they are the most hostile toward Christians, not because they are treated badly by them, but because they don't like being thought of as being wrong in their lifestyles. Even if they are not excluded or mistreated, they are still angry about being thought of as wrong, so they accuse Christians of being haters, etc.
Hang in there. We are not alone.
Silverton...I disagree.
The gay community does no more slandering or threatening than that of the Christian community. It's sad that so many choose religion over being a good person and allowing people to be who they are without fear of harm. I'm a firm opponent of religion but don't hate my neighbors who attend church. If they believe a god exists and are good people who leave me be, I smile and wave and return that courtesy.
People get so angry that the "gays are throwing their lifestyles down their throats," but in all honesty, America has done just that whenever a minority was being suppressed. Read a little about American history. Do these seem familiar? Black rights? (Cause they didn't march in the middle of streets or anything.) Women's rights? (No! They never burned a single bra! [Who would burn Vickie's Secrets?]) These are just two examples, but we have many more. When a group is oppressed, they fight and scream and kick until they receive the rights we all have.
It's our way. If you don't like gay people, don't be friends with any, but be civil. I can't stand religious people on whit, but I always try to be sweet as pie. Hey, religious peeps are people too!
I don't dislike gay people. Why put words in my mouth? I dislike the fact that gays attack any faith-based organization and tries to force them to compromise to things that are against their religious beliefs. I dislike that gay people accuse those who do not agree with them of being haters when it is so seldom true.
I have a gay relative who is very dear to me. He is one of the kindest people I know. He is unlike many gay people who are full of hostility and anger. I do not condone his gay lifestyle, but this does not affect the way I feel about him. We treat each other with respect and love.
I have worked with gay people and been neighbors to gay people. I have never discriminated against a gay person.
As a Christian, I believe that marriage should be between a man and woman, but if gays wish to marry, I have no problem with that either. That is between them and God, and is not my business.
You are entitled to all your rights. If you have no religion or no faith in God, then that is your right. But stop infringing on our Right to Practice Religious Freedom.
There are extremists in every group that distort or give any group a bad name. When were talking of religion, I am only talking about one, and that is Christianity. To me there are no other religions that I care about or acknowledge because there is only one God, one Religion. Now with that being said, yes there are people who give Christianity a very bad name. No one should dare ridicule the Church just because bad events happen in them, example molestation by priests. Ok, it happens. But just not in churches, it happens every where. Yet society has this extra animosity towards the Church because of such horrid things that happen in it. Well, last time I checked, the church is full of sinners just like any other place on this earth. There is nothing special that makes a person immune to the temptations of such sickness as molestation. I dont defend what happens in the church, but on the same hand I dont like to see it being attacked for a persons actions with in the church.
Now like Silverton, i too have close gay friends. I work with plenty. Some are mellow, and some very dramatic and always talking drama.. There are gays who give the gay community a bad name, just as there are black people who give blacks a bad name, or same for whites, atheists, teachers, musicians .. ect ect ..
My views on life, and my life itself, all are based on a Biblical point of view. My morals is based on an absolute authority, and standards that never change..ever.. If an absolute authority can be wavered , and its standards changed, then you no longer have a basis on morality and it is all subjective to personal belief.
As your talking about Minorities , I really hope you will be ready to defend Christians when they become the minority in years to come. I mean, since the liberal view seems to be everyone has rights and entitled to your beliefs, unless your a Chrisitan and or in the majority. So perhaps in 20 or so years when this huge cultural shift we are doing finally changes, maybe we can finally get some sympathy for us and our beliefs. I wont hold my breath though.
The problem in this case is that the gay movement is attmpting to force thier views and thier beliefs on a private group that has since it's beginnings not shared those beliefs. This is wrong plain and simple. We don't all feel the same way we don't all thinnk the same way. For the Boy Scouts to be bullied into allowing gays into the club is no less than extortion. When you force soemone to say they think as you do that's not change or acceptance. When you push for policy changes soley based on religion and the separation of church and state not what is fair and just it's not change for the good. When you ask for special treatment then who is being discriminated against. Gays are discriminating against the Boy scouts and others to gain what they as a 2% minority think is right even though 98% feel the opposite.
I guess they will have to change the Boy Scout Oath about being Morally Strait, or else all the gays will be labeled as liars. If you can't live by,or honor the oath, then stay out of the Boy Scouts!
I don't every recall the Boy Scouts being mandatory, at least no more so than a parent making their kid take piano lessons. You're point is moot.
dick (and what an appropriate name) If their religion doesn't have a problem with their sexual orientation then its not up to your religion to judge if they are morally correct or not.
Because if your religion can dictate to other religions what is morally correct then all of us who drink alcohol and eat pork are immoral.
On a broader topic, its not your job to judge the morals of another unless they break a LAW and you are on the jury. Otherwise God says that's his job NOT YOURS.
Jim, you and others like you are so completely wrong I question whether you were an Eagle Scout, or a scout at all. If you had earned the rank of Eagle, you would know that LIVING the scout oath and law is much harder than googling it to copy'n'paste here. You point to the phrases "morally straight" and "reverent" as they apply to your religious beliefs only, but you seemingly forget 2/3 of the oath and 11/12ths' of the law that don't support your prejudices. You also seemingly forget there are other religions and other values out there. One does not have to fit into your definition to be reverent towards God and live a moral life. If you were not taught that, then your parents and your mentors failed you miserably. Fortunately, the national council is far more understanding of the meaning of the oath, and that is why they are re-examining this policy.
You say that a homosexual cannot uphold the letter of the law. What is abundantly clear, is that you and others like you have not upheld the meaning of the law - which is far more important. Interestingly, it is only the BSA that holds these dated views. Recall that Baden Powell, from the UK, started scouting. In his country and in the rest of the world, they allow any young man who wishes to better himself through civic duty and learn personal responsibility. Our youth, and by extension, our country, would be a lot better off if we did the same.
I can also see from your "born that way" rebuttal that your only defense is to define homosexuality in the context of your specific religious belief. You have completely disregarded biological fact and decades of observation because they don't support your religious belief. One cannot have an intelligent fact-based debate if the counter-argument is based in fantasy. Good day, and Good Work BSA!
W. Gibbons, stop it. Newsvine isn't a betting site, and guessing other folks' histories never leads to good discussion.
You're suspended for a week for violating #1 of the Code of Honor.
@Genenut. Just where did I refer any religion? Just stating Scouting fact. By the way, I won't lower myself to your low standard of calling people rude names.
Careful guys, it appears Tyler is on a crusade :)
Not quite true.. Its true to a point, but also needs more explanation. We are allowed to judge, and should be judging a persons morals ONLY if we are not doing the sin ourselves. Example, I cant judge a person for viewing porn, tell him or her they are wrong, when I too am watching porn in my time.
Here read this about we as Christians and Judging others.
http://www.gotquestions.org/do-not-judge.html
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/october1/29.70.html
"We are allowed to judge, and should be judging a persons morals ONLY if we are not doing the sin ourselves"
Sorry, you clearly aren't too familiar with what Jesus had to say about that... he actually said judge not lest ye be judged (and many similar things).
You can't "judge only the sins that you don't do yourself"... no wonder so many people can't stand overly religious people of all flavors... you start spouting nonsense like this and dare to presume that you're behaving in the spirit of your prophet, when you're doing the exact opposite.
Lol
heh
I don't like to see any faith-based groups compromising on issues they do not agree with just because they are being pressured by special interest groups.
again I say, Jesus taught love God, Love your neighbors and love your enemy...in other words, love everyone, respect everyone and treat others as you would want to be treated regardless, in the case of BSA to not let them in would mean their faith is baseless.
It isn't the gays in the boy scouts that is the problem, there have always been gays in the organization. The only thing being changed is gay behavior is now allowed. If anyone believes gay behavior doesn't translate to pedophilia then why can't straight men participate in girl scouts without women being around? Straight men participating in girls activity doesn't translate into pedophilia either.
As I understand it an adult male homosexual can lead a bunch of boys into the woods for a stay and a straight man can lead a bunch of girls into the woods for a stay. This is going to be very interesting and lawyers are watching closer than anyone else.
This is about the money; the BS are seeing their 'corporate donations' going away and are having to make a choice between those and the money the Mormans and Catholics bring in. It's always been about the money, just now the religious groups don't hold the bigger hammer....
Next question, will the Mormans and Catholics make good on their threat to pull out of the BS (exposing their bigotry), or keep quiet?...
As to the pedophile question, the real irony is most of those were affiliated with one of the church groups, who actively tried to hide the problem.
Dick, I don't know how the Girl Scouts handle it, but the Boy Scouts do not generally allow one adult to be alone with a Scout or Scouts. So, I think your understanding is incorrect. The rule was put in place to prevent adult leaders from inappropriate behavior. Too bad the Catholic Church and Penn State did not have the same rule...
@Dick - there currently ARE female uniformed leaders in BSA who go on overnight outings with the boys. BSA has very strict policies that protect boys from any kind of abuse from adult, including no sharing tents, bathroom facilities, and 2-deep leadership at all times, meaning a Scout is never alone with only one adult.
Maybe they could add some new merit badges?
What's the use? All the perverts are already in that sick organization and to boot, well protected and insulated from being identified.
Dick, there might be gay scouts under the current system, but they have to stay in the closet. If they admit they're gay, even without performing any "gay behavior", they're no longer allowed to participate. It's teaching kids that the only way to get through life is to be ashamed of themselves - not exactly morally upright behavior.
Silverton. Boy Scouts are not restricted to the USA. They are a world wide organisation. It is anorganisation that has kept millions of kids on the right track. They are there to not only better themselves but also to help those around them that need help! It was never religious based, it just happens that churches sponsored these groups of kids who were rtrying to be better people. I was not a scout, however I think you need to have gone through the Scout system to have become a less cynical, negative, I'm better than you person!
If I were the head of the Boy Scouts, a Christian based organization, I would never back down from the basis of what God taught us. I have gay friends and family members. I believe they will answer for everything just as I will. But, the word od GOD should never be compromised on. DO NOT CHANGE OR BACK DOWN!!!
Dick, what do you mean that now "gay behavior" will be allowed? What precisely do you define as gay "behavior?"
Also, you demonstrate your ignorance when you equate homosexuality with pedophilia. The vast majority of child molesters are heterosexual. If you're worried about ADULTS (regardless of sexual orientation) molesting children, look to Susan's comment ^ about policies that prevent a child from being alone with one adult.
And since when, yeahbuhwha, is being GAY moral???
US Houtkop,
I never said Boy Scouts were restricted to the USA, nor was my post cynical, negative, or better-than-thou. You must be referring to someone's else post.
Both of my sons were in the Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. It was not sponsored by a church, but it was a faith-based troop.
Since you are not familiar with Scouting as you say, you probably should not be commenting on something you know little about.
US Houtkop -- thanks for that post. A key fact that I kind of lost track of. The Scouts were started in Britain as I recall, and are a world wide organization. The (optional) religious award they give, called I think God and Country here, exists in other countries which are not necessarily Christian. The Boy Scouts were not intended as a primarily religious organization, but have become so recently through the fact that religious groups sponsor many of the troops.
"It was never religious based"
"In Scouting for Boys, Baden-Powell wrote specifically about Christianity, since he was writing for youth groups in the United Kingdom:
Indeed, the Scout Promise requires an incoming member to fulfil their "duty to God".
However, the founder's position moved shortly after the Scout movement began to grow rapidly around the world, and his writings and speeches allowed for all religions. He did continue to emphasise that God was a part of a Scout's life:
Yep that looks like never being religion based to me.
If we condone this allowing of Gay's in the BS then we're as guilty as they are. We are told not to accept it, and I nor any of my family or children will ever accept it, and we teach them how wrong and disturbing it really is to be gay or in other words, a pervert. The man upstairs will take care of all of this one day soon, you can be sure of that.
Dick, I was a Girl Scout, and men have always been welcomed. I even had a male counselor at camp one year. And the camp director was a lesbian. Nobody cared, and nobody got molested. Because, now try to keep up with me, homosexuality =/= pedophilia.
The minute gay/lesbians are allowed in the scouts will be the minute I pull my child and my money out of it! It is a faith based organization, what does the bible say about the subject?
since society decided that one particular religious sect doesn't have a monopoly on what is considered "moral."
Exactly....LMAO! F**ing gays are infiltrating into everything! AND people are afraid to speak out against this crap, cause you could face hate crime charges! Man.....do I see a storm brewing on the horizon!
yeabuhwha,
your post is a joke, "morally upright behavior." Times have changed. Yes I see that. Being a homosexual, flaming or not, is somewhat excepted. Still not morally right. Again times have changed, but the act is still the same. If you are a homosexual do attempt to measure morals, cause your already behind.
Well another good wholesome organization flushed down the toilet by a small liberal fanatic fringe group. What part of private youth organization did they not understand. That being said....
I really feel if you are raised in a neighborhood with gangs and get into a gang and well have no choice maybe they should let them in scouting too. I do not want them to feel left out. It is not their fault they are in a gang to survive..Maybe scouting will be wholesome for them and show them other ways they can act and build upon the scouting skills learned. Maybe some bloods and crips will benefit from scouting? Yes lets get all the young kids from gangs into scouting. That is a good idea. Oh crap forgot all the illegal aliens kids we need them to have scouting also. Ok add them. I do not think we can be private anymore though,,, Maybe the government needs to take over scouting and form a committee . Yes that would be best if can get it into the system and maybe use taxes to pay for it. Then it can be for everyone legals ,illegal gay or white. Scouting for all who can not teach their kids anything.
Go ahead Sandie, pull em out.
And what does the Bible say? Hmmmmm....ask what it says about what happens to women who have premarital sex. Ask it what it says about the following:
"I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent." Timothy 2:11
Read more at #KWcHxcl1Uom4ZcKv.99
"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord."(Deuteronomy 23:1)
Read more at #KWcHxcl1Uom4ZcKv.99.
But if she bear a maid child (GIRL), then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days." (Leviticus 12:5)
And the Leviticus ones are the most fun! What was UP with that guy?
why can't they just start fairy scouts!
@carryingconcealed, you are right. If the BSA caves in, they are nothing but more spineless cowards giving in to the liberals. I wonder if they have bothered to get the opinions of their members. Cub scouts/boy scouts are a great program for boys, not pansies. If you are gay and want to be in scouts, go join the girl scouts or form your own group. If BSA approves this, I will be dropping my son out of scouting. I will do my best to serve God and country, well you better change your oath BSA because gay and lesbians are not acceptable behavior to God. It is sinful and unnatural and I know that the troop we are in will not accept gay or lesbians in it, because we are true christians who do not believe in this disgusting act. I will be damned if my son will attend any function where I have to worry or he has to worry about Butt Scout molesting him. It is bad enough it happened in the past and now BSA is considering opening it up even wider to happen even more. That really makes a lot of sense. It disgusts me BSA would even think about this. My son is almost finished cub scouts and he definitely will not be going into Boys Scouts or future Butt Scouts. Good way for you to ruin what is left of the boys scouts BSA!
Drowning Grover,
You said "one particular religious sect doesn't have a monopoly on what is considered moral?"
What one particular sect are you referring to?
The Boy Scouts of America is a faith-based organization, but not exclusive to Christianity alone. There are Jewish Boy Scouts, Muslim Boy Scouts, Mormon Boy Scouts, etc.
Although you seem to be familiar with the gay agenda, you do not sound familiar with the Boy Scouts or their beliefs and agenda.
TO: Bill-3655817 who wrote:
It came out in the news just a few months ago that just about all of the Leaders in the Boy Scouts already are gay. If there was any secrety being kept, that was it.
They probably had their version of banning gays to keep secret the fact that gays were already in there, and probably to try to avoid lawsuits.
As a Girl Scout troop leader, one who would accept any girl regardless of what gender she is attracted to (which is none of my business anyhow), I think some of these comments go so far against what scouts are supposed to be that it's disgusting.
On my honor, I will try:
To serve mother nature and my country,
To help people at all times,
and to live by the Girl Scout Law.
I will do my best to be
honest and fair,
friendly and helpful,
considerate and caring,
courageous and strong, and
responsible for what I say and do,
and to
respect myself and others,
respect authority,
use resources wisely,
make the world a better place, and
be a sister to every Girl Scout.
Fail people, complete and utter fail.
Aww, it's fun to see people rage when morality is brought up in a thread about gay people. Does being gay take away from Loving Thy Neighbor? No. End of story, have a nice day.
RwEvans said:
To add to this, parents will always advise their sons as before and the same thereafter.
This is not implied as a negative nor as a suggestion. For those who can understand what is meant in the previous paragraph no further explanation is necessary.
"there might be gay scouts under the current system, but they have to stay in the closet."
well it should be that way for both straight and gay, i dont think someone should be banned for being gay, but i dont think the Boy Scouts are a place to flaunt your sexuality no matter where your chips fall. the issue needs to be resolved that if "discovered" your gay, it wouldnt matter, but know that your decision to be gay/straight or the way u were born gay/straight or however being gay/straight is accomplished, doesnt amount to a hill of beans in the BSA, because its not the place for sexuality.
Dick-2100935
Because of people like you, duh.
Newsflash- Just because people fear stupid @!$%# doesn't make their fear rational or reasonable.
I used the term "religious sect" specifically because I did not wish to single out any one particular religious group.
It would be easy (and equally intolerant) to say Christianity, as it is the predominant religion in this country, but not ALL Christians are anti-homosexuality (as evidenced by RwEvans post in #1.16) and so it would be unfair to insinuate as such. The same can be said for almost any religious sect, as they all hold their own opinions.
I understand that, which again, is the reason why I didn't single any one particular religion out in my post.
What praytell, in your mind, is the "gay agenda?" If fighting for equal rights under the law and anti-discriminatory policy is an "agenda," then consider me a supporter of that "agenda."
Inclusion of gays into society and gay marriage is coming, make no mistake. Every national poll conducted on the matter shows that public opinion on anti-gay-marriage is waning (probably as it's opponents are dying off). Those that oppose it will be left to the dustbin of history...
My Lord America is a brain dead rotten country! Perverts in the woods with little boys? Girls pretending to be combat able soldiers when they CAN NOT EVEN CARRY THE GEAR TO THE BATTLE FIELD.....And the best Generational enslavement brought to you by the great Obama debt. You liberals are wonderful smart moral people great job!
AND THE DUMBEST COMMENT ON THIS BOARD IS......
So...Kanic....let me ask you this? What about Lesbians?
I find it funny that the "self righteous creepy people" who only think about the "act" seem to think that it's OK for the Girl Scouts to get the Boy Scouts "throwaways" of boys or parents who are homosexuals but don't feel the SAME way about the Girl Scouts.
@ferfer i agree completely. I was a girl guide in the UK (the same thing as girl scouts) and our leaders were generally single women of a certain age. Their sexual orientation didn't even register on the radar. When I went home last year it was to find that my Guide leader had "come out" even when I had been a Guide, she was still a great Guide leader and while I do not know if the GG Association has any rules on this, the local chapter didn't care.
This woman taught me how to stand up for myself, be self sufficient and treat others how you would wish to treated.
Just because you are afraid of something that is different doesn't make it dangerous, in fact being exposed to something different might just teach you something.
After reading through some of these comments, I am completely disgusted at the pure hatred and disregard some people have for other people. How dare anyone tell a small child he/she is not allowed to participate in a group because he/she is gay. They have the right to be apart of these types of groups regardless of their lifestyles. Isn't boyscouts about teaching young children to do good in their communities and for others? How hypocritical for them to preach being well-rounded individuals when they can't even teach acceptance.
this post is complete hogwash.
homosexuality != Pedophile
I dare you to say that to some of the women ALREADY in combat (or the parents/husbands/families of the 152 women killed in Iraq/Afghanistan). Be careful however, some of them could probably lay a pretty might beatdown on you regardless of how tough you talk.
Man oh man I wish rightwingers cared so much about the debt back when Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II were racking it up at light speed...
As a Catholic and a Boy Scout leader who was sexually abused by Scouts as a youth, and have been counseled because of the not knowing how to deal with it as I was taught by my Catholic parents. I know what is in my heart and it was nothing about me a human being. The BUCK stops here! We as human beings have many numerous things that have been done to us in our lifetimes, but because of that it does not give us the right to do it to someone else. Pedophiles, listen here, if it was done to you it does not give you the right to do it to someone else. Find a good counselor and deal with it! Being gay or a lesbian is nothing about pedophilia. They like men and women just as heterosexuals like men and women. THEY WANT TO BE LOVED JUST LIKE WE DO! I know hat the Catholic Church teaches on this subject, by my being Catholic, and having had Catholic priests coming on to me as an adult and not as a child serving Masses in the Church. My firm belief in pedophile priests is that these young men were taken out of the home before they were in high school, before puberty, and never being allowed to interact with females in any way shape or form. Think about that for a moment. If your pubescent Boy Scout son you are raising, were taken out of the home and placed in a Boy Scout camp where he was never allowed to see a girl and the only communication he had with another person was a boy in a tent, what do you think is going to happen? My parents never taught us about sexuality, we learned it on the streets. We are an educated public, so teach your children about sexuality before they learn about it somewhere you don't want them to!
I don't see any liberal-based groups compromising on issues they do not agree with just because they are being pressured by special interest groups.
Don't believe me? Offering compromise is portrayed as "obstructionism" if done by the right, is it not? Well, unless a few Republicans switch votes on the Affordable Care Act on the false agreement that an executive order would be offered to not fund abortions. Then it's all good even if the "compromise" from the White House was a lie.
Ok everybody,
First off, I am going to assume by everyones comments that the majority of people posting have no idea what the Boy Scouts is like now. You have an outdated, simplistic view of the organization.
The Boy Scout Law and Oath mention Reverent and Duty to God. So yes, there faith in the scouts. But just because your religion and your view on God's beliefs says that being gay is a moral sin does not mean that theirs says the same thing. The scouts have religious emblems from over 30 different religions. Not everyone has the same beliefs. The requirement is that you believe in a higher power, not which one.
The Boy Scouts preach diversity. It is a goal to be a very diverse organization. So for the peoples comments about focusing on white, black, hispanic, etc - grow up and get real. This is just one other way that scouts will teach diversity, without being called hypocrites by their own membership.
And for the people who quote the oath saying "morally straight" - one of the other goals of the Boy Scouts is to teach the boys to think and decide for themselves based on the beliefs and morals of their conscience, not have their beliefs and decisions be dictated to by others. Each scout on his own decides what exactly it means to them. From the Scouting Handbook, "And morally straight - Your relationship with others should be honest and open. Respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions and faithful in your religious beliefs. Values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance." I challenge you to tell me where in there that it says you cannot be gay and should keep gays out of scouts.
I think that they are doing the right thing, listening to the troop organizations telling them that they do not want to keep a ban on scouts. I also think that they are going about it the right way, by making it a decision that the sponsoring organization makes. "The Boy Scouts would not, under any circumstances, dictate a position to units, members or parents. Under this proposed policy, the BSA would not require any chartered organization to act in ways inconsistent with that organization’s mission, principles or religious beliefs."
So I would assume that groups sponsored by Catholic and LDS churches would keep the ban, while certain Lutheran and Baptist churches would drop the ban, and other civic organizations would follow what they believe is right. Keep the national council out of it, because frankly in my opinion, since they aren't the ones running the individual organizations, they shouldn't have an opinion about it anyway.
I say it's about time.
I'm not gay, so...all you haters....can just save it!
*****Lets see what Jesus had to say about homosexuality back in Genesis chapter 18 as the "Lord" and Abraham standing before him:
16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the Lord said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.a]">[c] 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him."
------>>>>>20 Then the Lord said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.
*******Now lets read how so-called "non-bigoted homosexuals" in Sodom treat people trying to stop them from forcing themselves on innocent others in Genesis 19:
4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." 6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
------->> 9 "Get out of our way," they replied. "This fellow[Lot] came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.
10 But the men[angels from God] inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.
*****Now, look at the reaction from God and his angels to the behavior of these homosexuals:
12 The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the Lord against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it."
15 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished."
******Finally, look at God's ultimate response to what He calls wicked behavior and those who refuse to repent from it:
24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the Lord. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.
29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.
*****The moral of the story is this:
Jesus loves everyone but He does not love our sin. Don't think even for a minute that He will change His mind about anyone's sinful behavior regardless if they are a straight or gay person.
Jesus the LORD did not spare Sodom and Gomorrah for their wicked behavior. He will not spare you or me for our unrepentant wicked behavior! Just read the Book of Revelations to see He has not changed His mind.
WE NEED TO HAVE A CHANGE OF MIND ABOUT OUR BEHAVIOR AND WHAT GOD WANTS BECAUSE JESUS THE LORD WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND!!!
Jesus didn't say any of that. Awfully judgmental, aren't you? Homophobic is more like it.
Im so dam tired of hearing comments from the liberals that only heterosexuals are the pedophiles!! Bullsh*T!! Yes, there are cases of men/women sexually assaulting children of the opposite gender and yes they are peds.....but, If a male has sexual intercourse with another male, no matter the age, it is a homosexual!! If a female has sexual intercourse with another female, no matter the age, its a homosexual!! Liberals, you dont get to pick and chose what is gay or not gay! It is what it is!!! AND guess what? Most pedophiles are GAY!! For example, the priest that rape boys, Gay!!, Boy scout leaders that rape boys, GAY!! Most serial killer pedophiles were Gay!.....John Wayne Gacy, Gay! Jeffrey Dahmer, Gay! Luis Alfredo Garavito, Gay! Randy Steven Kraft, Gay! Michael Swango, Gay! Fritz Haarmann, Gay! Patrick Wayne Kearney, Gay! Elmer Wayne Henley, Gay! Juan Corona, Gay! Huang Yong, Gay! Henry Lee Lucas, Gay! Bishop Arthur Gary, Gay! David P. Brown(a.k.a. Nathaniel Bar-Jonah), Gay! David Edward Maust, Gay!......and I can go on and on! This is a serious issue that people need to take into con sideration before we allow gays around our children! Do I think all gays are pedophiles? Maybe not, but I'm not taking the chance with my kids!
The Trans Atlantic Council, BSA has admitted all European members without regard to sexual orientation for a long time, why is this such a problem in the USA?
Probably because the majority of Europeans are atheists.
Poor "david". Do you actually think you score points on God's little score card every flippin' time you re-post that garbage?
The fact that you place Jesus in the Old Testament only proves that you are an ignorant liar...and we are supposed to take lessons in morality from YOU?
I'm sure you know nothing about it, "david", but I seem to remember another part of the Old Testament that mentioned something about some commandments of some sort. I think I remember something about bearing false witness...
Perhaps, "david", someday you will read the Biblle and you can remind us all what happens to liars.
Sigh. "evangelicals"....The "just add water and stir" instant "christians".
IF one pledges the following, how do you discriminate against the gay population?
Before you pledge yourself to any oath or promise, you must know what it means. The paragraphs that follow will help you understand the meaning of the Scout Oath.
On my honor . . .
By giving your word, you are promising to be guided by the ideals of the Scout Oath.
. . . I will do my best . . .
Try hard to live up to the points of the Scout Oath. Measure your achievements against your own high standards and don't be influenced by peer pressure or what other people do.
. . . To do my duty to God . . .
Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.
. . . and my country . . .
Help keep the United States a strong and fair nation by learning about our system of government and your responsibilities as a citizen and future voter.
America is made up of countless families and communities. When you work to improve your community and your home, you are serving your country. Natural resources are another important part of America's heritage worthy of your efforts to understand, protect, and use wisely. What you do can make a real difference.
. . . and to obey the Scout Law; . . .
The twelve points of the Scout Law are guidelines that can lead you toward wise choices. When you obey the Scout Law, other people will respect you for the way you live, and you will respect yourself.
. . . To help other people at all times; . . .
There are many people who need you. Your cheerful smile and helping hand will ease the burden of many who need assistance. By helping out whenever possible, you are doing your part to make this a better world.
. . . To keep myself physically strong, . . .
Take care of your body so that it will serve you well for an entire lifetime. That means eating nutritious foods, getting enough sleep, and exercising regularly to build strength and endurance. it also means avoiding harmful drugs, alcohol, tobacco, and anything else that can harm your health.
. . . mentally awake, . . .
Develop your mind both in the classroom and outside of school. Be curious about everything around you, and work hard to make the most of your abilities. With an inquiring attitude and the willingness to ask questions, you can learn much about the exciting world around you and your role in it.
. . . and morally straight.
To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance.
Note that the Boy Scout Oath has traditionally been considered to have three promises. Those three promises are delineated by the semicolons in the Oath, which divide it into three clauses. The three promises of the Scout Oath are, therefore:
DUTY TO GOD AND COUNTRY: Your FAMILY and religious leaders teach you to know and serve God. By following these teachings, you do your duty to God.
Men and women of the past worked to make America great, and many gave their lives for their country. By being a good family member and a good citizen, by working for your country's good and obeying its laws, you do your duty to your country. Obeying the Scout Law means living by its 12 points.
DUTY TO OTHER PEOPLE: Many people need help. A cheery smile and a helping hand make life easier for others. By doing a Good Turn daily and helping when you're needed, you prove yourself a Scout and do your part to make this a better world.
DUTY TO SELF: Keeping yourself physically strong means taking care of your body. Eat the right foods and build your strength.Staying mentally awake means learn all you can, be curious, and ask questions. Being morally straight means to live your life with honesty, to be clean in your speech and actions, and to be a person of strong character.
Loving and respecting others doesn't include having to accept their positions or beliefs as valid. Denying membership in an organization to people who do not share the values and standards of said organization does not equate to a contradiction.
If instead you had made the argument that homosexuals who vow to do their best to live by the Scout Oath and Law ought to be allowed to join, then that might have been more logical.
The Bible DOES say that God said and did certain things, right? And God = the Father, the Son (aka Jesus), and the Holy Spirit.
If you are trying to argue that because Jesus didn't say something specific that appears elsewhere in the Bible that it loses all relevance, then that just isn't a logical argument based on the relevant theology.
The fact that you can ask the question you did, despite having all of that information presented to you, means that you don't understand the meaning of what you've presented.
In the simplest possible terms: Per traditional American standards and values, for which the BSA has always stood, homosexual activity is morally wrong, unclean, and an abomination unto God. Hence it violates the Scout Oath and the Scout Law, and those who profess to be in favor of homosexual activity cannot meet the eligibility requirements to live by and uphold those standards and values--thus they cannot be members.
Any more questions?
ReasonableApproach, sounds like you need a name change. There is nothing reasonable about your comments against gays & lesbians or even your comments about liberals. We don't need an organization that teaches hatred against others for being "different" because of their race, religion or sexual orientation.
Too much hatred is on this thread; this is the problem with society. We have the religious right-winged nuts who lack respect for anyone other than those who think and breathe like them. People need to stop imposing their beliefs on others, especially the ones who are prejudice and homophobic. God and Jesus was not prejudice, so why are you?
You were saying........??????????
Jim.,
Are divorced men and women allowed in the BSA??? "What God has joined together, let NO MAN put assunder!" So then if I am divorced and remarried am I not in violation of number 7 of the 10 commandments?
It may be our job to tell people of the gay lifestyle what the bible says, it is NOT our place to judge and persecute them. THAT is god's place!!!
Just an FYI, scouting is non-sectarian. Episcopalians don't share your homophobia or your religious interpretation, so they'll now be sponsoring inclusive scouting troops. Apparently their god isn't a dumb bigot like yours is.
The Methodist church also supports lifting the ban.
In the simplest possible terms: there are no "traditional American standards," since the USA was founded as a melting pot, and remains one to this day, with many different cultures, religions, and traditions represented here. Furthermore, the majority of Americans support equality; morality is subjective; and we can each decide for ourselves what is "unclean" -- which would negate your claim that it is "morally wrong, unclean, and abomination unto God".
YOU do not get to speak for "traditional Americans," because YOU cannot speak for anyone but YOU.
The idea that someone is somehow substandard or has no value because one is a homosexual is repugnant and bigoted in the extreme, Jim, but no surprise, given your history. You are nothing but a judgmental, hypocritical bigot.
heres the thing, i believe in god just as much as the next deist, but whether or not homosexuality is a "sin" god made it very clear that the judgement of sin belongs to him and him alone. it is not our right to judge them at all, if u do you are in danger of the same hellfire u are trying to send them to. jesus told me that my job was to love my neighbor and love god, thats it, and thats what im gonna do, he never said love ur straight neighbors and judge ur gay neighbors.
Way too little and way too late. Are they going to let atheists in too? I highly doubt it. The organization pretends to be about teaching self-reliance and good members of the community, but it really just exists as a front for one religion's narrow view of the world. Just get over yourselves and change the name to the Mormon Scouts of America already.
"Let atheists in"?
Why would they? Can't an organization that believes in God ask that anti-God militants do not join?
Believing in a fairy tale should not be a prerequisite into your almightly club. I was a Boy Scout and the subject of God didn't come up once in all the years.
I can start a fire with sticks and tie any knot you can think of, neither of which requires me to pray to an invisible being
Not if they are granted in-kind benefits by local governments and public institutions. Our public government deserves to be completely unburdened from the cost of supporting such filthy institutions. People need to understand that it is not okay to send your kids to the boy scouts, in the same way its not okay to send your kids a KKK camp.
I wonder when they will allow an atheist to govern on the board of the Jewish Federation, or allow a southern white male politician to be president of the NAACP? I wonder when Iran and China will open their doors to Christianity without fear of repercussions? I wonder when UNIONS in Ohio will stop picketing and / or suing private non-union shops or job sights because the work is not being performed by union thugs? I wonder when Homosexuals will stop suing for their right to walk around San Fransisco NAKED while families with children can't take the kids outside anymore because of the disgusting displays...
Seems this is the way the world turns. Everyone is mad at the rest of the world, but in one way or another, we all push the dynamic we want to see succeed.
This is America. If a private group / organization wants to have particular rules, leave them alone. YOU go out and form your own group. Why does everyone think they have force the world to conform to a single ideal, when a single accepted ideal does not exist?
Atheists are not anti-god. We simply don't believe any gods exist. I'm not anti-Zeus or anti-Thor or anti-God. They're not real.
Darkus
It appears you have no clue on several fronts.
While BSA has religious corner stones no where does it specify a Christian one. Jewish, Muslim, Hinduism, Buddhism and others are QUITE welcome.
Latter Day Saints of Jesus Christ (Mormons) are Christian based.
While I do not agree with what the National level of BSA is proposing it is in their long term financial interests to leave it to the LOCAL troops. The problem is that the individual troops have even smaller pockets to go to court to defend their RIGHT to choose.
There is nothing worse than an IGNORANT BIGOT and Darkus you represent exactly that.
concerned - San Francisco is primarily heterosexual so stop trying to blow it up like the big bad gay city. if you want a nice family vacation, go to disney world or something but just because you don't exercise good common sense in choosing a family vacation spot doesn't mean we should change just for prudes like you.
Darkus, it is patently obvious from your comments that you know absolutely nothing about the BSA, other than what your imagination thinks it is and what you parrot from the haters on the left. Equating BSA to KKK is beyond uninformed, its just outright stupid.
Darkus,
It is sad to see you talk about biggotted when you are doing just that.
Because somebody has an opposing view than you do, it is automatically biggotted. I applaud those who will stand for a moral belief, even if it isn't popular. Just because something is popular doesn't make it right. Frankly I feel sorry for those that profess to be Gay or support them. They are the ones who have been brainwashed to believe that wrong is right. No amount of public pressure or discrimination will make this anti-moral view right.
All I can do is say that if the BSA budges on this view, then we will have to chalk the BSA up to another organization that isn't worth supporting despite the good that they have done for me and countless other boys. We can continue to teach morals without the BSA.
As I understand it ( and I am the wife and mother of two Eagle Scouts), the Boy Scouts have moved to a much more conservative, religious emphasis owing to dominance by the Mormons and other conservative Christian groups.
Anybody know more on this?
At my son's Eagle court one Scoutmaster pointed out that "A Scout is Reverent" does not necessarily mean that he practices a particular faith or lifestyle. We are Unitarians.
mindyabusiness - I did a 60 second search on the nudity thing in San Fran. Here is one site that lists SOME public opinions. I'm not going to argue who is right or wrong with you. I'm not going to say hetero's are the primary residents of SF. I will argue the nudity thing has a great deal of opposition & those opposed should not be forced to accept or "get out".
I especially liked the one opinion that said they wish the mothers with baby strollers would come back to the neighborhood (instead of the nudists who have driven them out)...
http://www.goldengatexpress.org/2012/10/19/nudity-ban-opinion/
BTW - I will give you a point for bringing out this is not TOTALLY a homosexual thing. The legal actions have been brought about by "nudists" AND homosexuals both...
It is still socially acceptable to discriminate against atheists, which of course does not make it right.
Trust,
You can pretend that this an equal opportunity organization, but then the ignorance would be in your court. It is well known the overwhelming influence the Mormon faith puts on this organization. Their attempt to demonstrate inclusiveness by allowing other ideologies? That is proven to be the thin veil it is by the way they exclude others. It's an organization that is administrated and serving one narrow ideology, your mileage may vary on each individual troop, but that doesn't mean its okay to support the net effect: a discriminatory and bigoted national organization.
BSA wants to be private and choose to be bigoted? That's fine. But we shouldn't be welcoming such a filthy organization into our communities, and our governments shouldn't be providing them preferential access and discounted rates to public assets.
When people like you to try to cast it in any different way, your are merely revealing either your own ignorance and bigotry. Many times both.
Concerned - exactly. It's a complex issue. Don't put it on the minority homosexual community in SF like they're solely to blame. It's not a gay/straight thing. Stop derailing conversations with your uneducated and misdirected homophobia and focus on the post at hand. We're talking about Boy Scouts. Not nudists in ONE city in California.
also - look at census data. Even if you just wikipedia SF you'll see that homosexuals are not the majority in SF.
It isn't because they have an opposing view, it is because they are actively bigoted. When an organization professes to have the President of the United States as its leader, when it gains preferential access to public resources and assets, when it has these things, it has a constitutional restriction to be inclusive to society.
Your morals, as you believe and teach them, are not based on reality, or science, or any other objective fact. That's fine, that's your constitutional right. But if you choose to wield those beliefs to bar others, then you are a private organization. One that doesn't legally deserve the benefits it currently enjoys, and one that doesn't ethically deserve the place in society in currently enjoys. Don't be shocked when the best and brightest of our society choose to exercise their own rights to speak out against it and urge their peers to shun it.
All faith-based organizations have the right and the freedom to practice their beliefs without infringement from special interest groups.
Special interest groups have the right and freedom to form their own organizations to do the same.
silverton - so do you. if you dont like the decision bsa is making, go ahead and start your own group of "special interest" homophobes. i'm sure the three of you will have a rockin good time.
Completely on topic as the story is about homosexuals being allowed into a private organization. Completely on topic as the first post in this particular thread opened the can of worms with:
Get over yourself! I've done nothing wrong - except offer up opinions different than yours. And that gets right back into the original post containing "narrow view of the world", and your perception of how things "should" be. ALL ON TOPIC!
I wonder when they will allow an atheist to govern on the board of the Jewish Federation, or allow a southern white male politician to be president of the NAACP? I wonder when Iran and China will open their doors to Christianity without fear of repercussions? I wonder when UNIONS in Ohio will stop picketing and / or suing private non-union shops or job sights because the work is not being performed by union thugs? I wonder when Homosexuals will stop suing for their right to walk around San Fransisco NAKED while families with children can't take the kids outside anymore because of the disgusting displays...
Who brought up nudity in SF? Who brought up the NAACP? And the world ending because of the BSA's decision to be more inclusive? You went on a crazy rant and the majority of it wasn't related to the topic. You've been proven wrong in your accusations about San Francisco and your assessment that this country is going downhill is as unfounded and dumb as your initial rant. THAT is what you did wrong.
mindyabusiness,
You sound like a very unhappy individual who has no conception of what the term "faith-based organization" actually means.
Just because you enjoy living in an "anything goes" and "if it feels good, do it" society, does not mean that everyone else has to throw their beliefs out the window to accomodate your own lack of proprieties.
If you ask others to be open-minded, then you should first try to show that you can be that way yourself.
I was a scout but quickly left because it was more of an arts and crafts fair. I yearned for true camping learning the outdoors fishing and hunting. I could already swim and did not need a badge or reward for the basic things I already knew and was taught by my parents. What little is left of the BSA will quickly be dismantled.
Darkus
LOL! You'll never see the "best and brightest" comparing the Boy Scouts to the KKK. Please re-evaluate your position in society because you've placed yourself much further up the ladder than your actual station.
Jerry Sandusky was is a self-identified heterosexual, with a wife!
silverton - but I could say the same thing to you. Just because you want to live your live by the bible or dictated by your precious God doesn't mean we all have to either. just like the bsa isn't iscriminating based on what religion someone is anymore, this country is going to move further and further away from discriminating based on someone's sexuality. you're the one unhappy about that.
Mind - Again, and for the final time, the story is about a private organization knuckling under to pressure by people who want to destroy it (as it currently exists). Everything on my posts have been in support of that.
Why can't I have my rights, you have your rights, and the BSA enjoy the rights even the Supreme Court said they are allowed to have?
Why does the Jewish Federation have their exemptions that are OK? Why does the NAACP have their rights that are OK? Why do nations have their "right" to force their narrow view of what is OK? Why do unions have the right to say everyone is wrong but them and force others to do what they say?
Everything I offer is on topic with the story - an entity being forced into doing something they don't want to do, but are forced into. What if the Jews were forced to incorporate a non-Jew as their leader? What if the NAACP were forced to hire a white guy as their leader? Why should forced things be allowed to take place in some arenas, while ignored as nonsense in others????????????????????
We don't argue that the Jewish Federation is not allowing equal "rights" to atheists. We don't argue that white people should be in charge of the NAACP. We don't argue how China or Iran must allow Christian missionaries in the country without prosecution. We don't argue about union picketers standing in the way of non union work places. We don't argue about nudists and homosexuals taking over the streets of SF & driving out those who don't see things their way. But here we are arguing over the BSA being forced into a position they want no part of. Interesting, yes?
It is not fair how we let some things slide, but allow forced implementation of personal ideals upon other Americans - regardless of how they feel. It is not right how we force a narrow view of the world as we want to see it on others, but allow things to slide when it agrees with our "belief".
That is the point of the story as I see it, and the point of the original post that says "narrow view of the world". You'd like to make things fit into your special little box, but the truth is (per my original post):
But you keep your fingers in your ears and yell nah, nah, nah, nah, nah all you want. I'm done.
concerned - have you no concept of the civil rights movement? blacks, asians, women, etc all worked together in the 60s and 70s. There were no rules about who can join each club and I still don't see any evidence of special interest minority groups discriminating like that today. a few years ago a white dude won valedictorian at an all black university (which clearly wasn't ALL black if a white dude was taking classes there). the black panthers worked very closely with an asian student alliance organization. The issue that you're making this about is NOT an issue. We're trying to evolve and get to a place where no organizations have veto power to treat people like crap. Why are you so determined or keeping that from happening?
Who cares if they're a faith based organization? If people are being left out, just like any other organization, we're going to correct it. you're not exempt from what the rest of the country is trying to do because you claim to be founded in faith.
show of hands guys .... when was the last time you heard about the jewish federation discriminating against atheists? or the NAACP discriminating and not allowing other races to participate? If you can put up with the NAACP's mindless dribble than you're more than welcome to join but there's no rule that you can't. whereas the bsa had a rule about not allowing gay leaders and scouts. How in the world are those two things the same? your analogy is flawed.
1. Read the constitution.
2. The Supreme Court already ruled and said BSA was doing nothing wrong as a private organization.
3. You have no idea where I have been or what I have seen... No idea... You have no clue as to the personal bias held against me because of my sex and race - no clue... Things like how I was held out of consideration of my dream job as I was told I wasn't the right sex or ethnicity for the hiring quota requirement (told right to my face)... So before you throw out insults, you might get to know me first with questions. My opinions are based on life experiences...
4. What I am determined to keep from happening is a ban on traditional Christian principles, and any affront to the institution of Christianity. While this is an indirect shot, it another erosion in what tens of millions believe in the USA. (Please consider the "rights" of others in between your attacks.) Just because it is your "belief" doesn't make it everyone's belief... Seeing one organization after another give in to special interest groups for the sake of one big group hug (or even better - money) is simply astonishing! And this goes way beyond the color of my skin, or sex, or ethnicity... This is kind of like the "assault weapons ban" - going after the one type of weapon responsible for 1% of gun-related murders, while the one responsible for 97% goes on (the handgun)... This erosion is just the beginning, and the "assault" weapon ban is just the beginning... As a side note, of the 520 +/- murders in Chicago, care to guess how many were due to "assault weapons"? Go on, guess... And Rahm is like the #1 city mayor pushing this measure... There is always more to the story than what appears on the surface... But now I HAVE gone off-topic!
5. Gotta run. Thanks for the conversation. And remember - I can't make you "think" like me, and you can't make me "think" like you. You can't pigeon-hole all of society into one neat little package. I get that!!!
1. I NEVER insulted you or insinuated anything about who you are. we're on the internet. you could be sitting right next to me and i wouldn't know it.
2. the supreme court has made mistakes in the past. clarence thomas didn't speak for what 12 years over the course of his time there? and you quote their decisions as some kinda truth? OH OK. talk about being gullible.
3. OH BOY you're pro-gun too. let's just agree to disagree and never speak of this again. stay mad lol thx for arguin on behalf of the bsa but it looks like they are going to do the opposite of what you want anyway.
mindyabusiness,
You say you are going to correct faith-based organizations that don't include everyone you think should be included?
LOL
Good luck with that.
You certainly don't live up to your name.
yep. white jihadis and asian jews. coming to a town near you!
plus it's not just about who I personally want to include. the bsa is going to stop discriminating and you can be mad all you want but it's not going to change the fact that this country is moving towards trying to include everyone. you old farts are gonna be sitting at home with your bibles screaming about how you wish things were like the good ole days while the rest of us are out basking in the diversity and equal opportunity that made this country great to begin with.
Darkus
You do realize that this "filthy" organization is made up by your neighbors don't you? You know the folks you have a beer with every now and then, attend church with, have kids that attend the same school as your children, maybe even work with? Again there is NO preferred access. Each troop is SPONSORED by some entity, be it a church, business, or community group. As part of that sponsorship they provide a place to meet and store equipment. Perhaps you should find a local troop that has been around for more than a couple years adn see what actually goes on rather than believing the propaganda being thrown about by the hate and fear mongers. The ONLY "benefit" that a troop derives is from their 501(c)(3) status that allows them to handle money without having to pay taxes and that is closely watched by your favorite government agency the IRS.
mindyabusiness,
I guess you weren't listening in history class when your teacher talked about the people who arrived at Plymouth Rock and why they came to the "new land" as they called it.
They were fleeing religious persecution, and wanted to practice their religion in freedom.
Freedom of Religion is a right that you may not be happy about as a gay atheist. But it is also here to stay unless you can raise enough ruckus to have that right removed from the Constitution.
How very contradictory that you want all the freedoms you like, but you wish deny freedoms to others you disagree with.
silverton - nobody is restricting your ability to practice whatever religion you want. it's a question of whether or not you have a right to mistreat or discriminate against people who don't want to participate in your religion. you'd be furious if i opened up a bank and said atheists and people with atheist values only so why would you do it to someone else? your religious organization isn't exempt from the rules the rest of us have to follow just because the founding fathers were also christians. thats all you can do is talk about what this country was founded on. THAT WAS HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO. you all thought slavery was okay a hundred years ago but now it's widely accepted as messed up, right? it's called social evolution. oh right. i forgot christians don't believe in that.
p.s. i'm a biological female who is engaged to a biological male and we met at catholic school. call me whatever names you want but i believe in equality.
concernedone,
That may well be, but why are they permitted to use public tax-payer supported spaces at special discounts. If I wanted to rent a function hall from my town to host the local Pragmatic Association meeting, it would cost me $50. The BSA doesn't have to pay.
Why does the BSA enjoy a milti-million dollar assistance for throwing a party from the DoD? My private club doesn't get that, and I asked really nicely.
mindyabusiness,
You say "it's a question of whether or not you have a right to mistreat or discriminate against people who don't want to participate in your religion."
The BSA has never to my knowledge mistreated or discriminated against people who don't want to participate in their religion. But they do welcome everyone with open arms who wishes to participate in their religion. But, if you are trying to CHANGE their religion or CHANGE ITS INTERPRETATION, then of course, that is not welcome. And why would anyone want to participate in a group that doesn't believe what they do?
Ah, yes ... gays don't want to participate in Boy Scouts. They just want to discriminate against faith-based organizations.
And no, I do not mind at all if you open an atheist bank, or have an atheist club. Your founder, Madalyn Murray O'Hair, Mother of American Atheists, formed her own organization, and that was her own business. She even had her own late night tv show. (She, and one of her sons, and her granddaughter were later robbed and murdered by a fellow atheist who cut up their bodies with a saw.)
And what do you mean that I thought slavery was okay? I was not alive then and so I had no voice to protest, but the first Abolitionists were Christians as I recall, and they were the ones that led the charge to end slavery. You must be very young not to understand the history of this country. Religious freedom means you have the right to worship or NOT worship as you please.
Your comments are very narrow-minded and bigoted. You ought to go back and read them with an open mind.
silver - so are christian gay boy scouts and leaders allowed to join the BSA?
That would be an oxymoron.
Not all Christians are dumb bigots, and there are lots of gay-friendly Christian denominations which have no problem with gays, including the ELCA and the Episcopal church.
Why should troops which are sponsored by enlightened denominations have to abide by the backwards and bigoted beliefs of Mormons and Southern Baptists?
silverton,
Please look up oxymoron. You definitely do not understand its meaning or usage.
they gave into gays and liberal Washington
@yankee: NO! They gave in to the likes of me! I'm a straight Eagle Scout who sent my badge back in protest. It's a narrow-minded policy that had to change, or else the organization would die. Apparently they (and their corporate board) have listened.
If you want to gay-bash, keep it in YOUR church and out of MY boy scouts!
Yes Yankee, they gave in but don't tell me that you think that there are no Gay Republicans on the Right and don't forget conservatives. Gays come in all political parties and shapes and sizes.
or they gave into a changing society that no longer accepts intolerance and bigotry as a substitute for some outdated "moral code."
to the dustbin of history with you...
They gave in to the almighty dollar, simple as that.
MisterMo
Are you so naive to believe your gesture had anything to do with this decision... The reality is they did a cost benefit review and decided it would cost the national level less in court costs by pawning the decision off to the local level. It is called attrition by 1000 paper cuts. In this case the paper was legal proceedings.
I'll agree with that.
Because the national BSA organization primarily grants "charters" to local organizations, this is the best policy they could put forward. If a religious group wants to form a Cub Scout Pack or Boy Scout Troop and discriminate on their membership, that is their right to do so. But they shouldn't count on outside funding from any other organizations, businesses, etc. Their religious group should be the sole financier of their charger group. If another group of local organizers want to seek a charter that allows for full and open membership, then that will be their right under this proposed national policy change. And it is about time that this is done. As for MisterMo's efforts, he was not the ONLY Eagle Scout to take this measure of protest against BSA's policies. And I'm sure the national board has considered the effects of that protest, along with the national funding problems, etc. Isn't that right MisterMO?
Oops, didn't catch the typo before the edit time ended...their charter group, not their charger group. Spell check doesn't cacth those kinds of typos.
@trustverify. Sorry to disappoint, but they've already had the highest court in the land support their right to exclude gays. So, there's no more [substantive] law suits. What DID happen, is that the LDS church (a huge Boy Scout supporter) has itself struck a more moderate tone towards gays in the last few weeks. What HAS happened is that other supporters, be they corporate, religious or the likes of me (volunteers), have pushed the issue and asked that the decision not be made for us at the national level, but in the local organization. I'm glad they've listened and sorry you think I've been a naive bystander.
@anit-trust prop. Yes, you are 100% right. This now makes the BSA policy similar to the one adopted by the Girl Scouts long ago. Nobody squawked when the Girl Scouts did this. Why the fuss with the Boy Scouts, I wonder.
The acceptance of all types of carnal behaviour and debauchery is the new America. What also will happen is people, children in particular without direction of morality will commit acts without remorse or conscience as there is a wide open society. Maybe it is already happening to individuals unsure of their identity or who cannot deal with their own inadequacies.
School has dumbed down morality and now the scouts? Why give into such a small annoyingly vocal group that only makes up 3 percent of the population. Wonder if there is a ban on leprosy inflicted people. Another small percent of the community MUST be heard so we all have rights. Good grief.
Here's a good question, when gay people say they were born that way why do they have to NEED to change everyone else to their cause? They are not stoned to death here like the Muslim Brotherhood does. What is it about sexuality that they feel they must be loud and obnoxious? It is private so keep it like that. We don't hate them, were just tired of the complaints from a small statistically insignificant portion of the society.
The Scouts should be open to people of all beliefs and practices. They should be tolerant and inclusive, but have been taken over by narrow minded religionists. This is a step in the right direction.
That said, the ability to start a fire with sticks and live in tents out in the woods is vastly overrated.
Good to see discrimination will be a localized phenomena vs. a national one...What a sad empty joke.
This is surprising and awesome to see! It will never cease to amaze me that people think that they have the right to project their bigoted, bible thumping, backwards asses beliefs on other people.
I'm an atheist and I dont agree with it.
Also an atheist. Boy Scouts are all about indoctrination, not about the kids. We need to work diligently to make sure they are marginalized in our communities. Our youth need a strong foundation in critical thinking and community charity, not bigotry and exclusion.
I don't like to see any faith-based organizations compromising on issues they do not agree with just because they are pressured by special interest groups.
Fair enough, but we need to make sure that public resources are completely removed from such an organization, however. That they are paying full price for access to national parks, community centers, and the other benefits they are often granted by local governments.
I don't like seeing any public institutions directly or indirectly supporting a private discriminatory organization that promotes bigotry.
Freedom of religion doesn't promote bigotry.
It promotes freedom to practice one's religion or faith without interference from others.
silverton - correct. we're all for freedom of religion. what we're not going to continue supporting is discrimination based on something as dumb as who the participant is in a relationship with. that has nothing to do with religion.
Darkus
further examples of your lack of being informed. Scouts pay their own way and full fare. Individually or as troops they may negotiate a discount, like any other group, but those are not "automatic".
mindyabusiness,
A faith-based organization has everything to do with religion and its rights should be honored and protected.
This is not something that a person like you who lives in San Francisco, a city with no proprieties of any kind, would even begin to understand.
The facts would like a word with you: "dailycamera.com/news/ci_15659271"
silverton - welp your precious faith based organization is changing and evolving with the rest of the world. whatcha gonna do about it? Take to the internet to cry some more?
yet, you seem to think you can force youres on a private organization [ views, beliefs, or lack thereof].i sincerely hope one day you will change your beliefs. he, [ god] still believes in you.think about it. one day you will meet him. maybe today, maybe tomorrow, maybe decades from now, but, it will happen. then it will be to late.
Darkus, I am a Cub Scout den leader. Since September, our pack activities have included a food drive, a supplies-for-troops drive, contributing to the Snowflakes for Sandy Hook project, and we passed along a large donation to a food pantry. That's the kind of foulness and hate we propagate.
Oh, and we're helping them earn the badge for being polite on the Internet. That's available to anyone...you know, just in case you know someone who needs to learn it.
@ Darkus. That's a pretty broad brush you're using. I'm an Eagle Scout and a volunteer. I've opposed this anti-gay policy from day one. But Boy Scouts is far more than you are willing to acknowledge. Scouting teaches lessons far more important than indoctrination. It taught me the value of hard work, setting & accomplishing goals, self-reliance and eco-conservation. Please don't discard the benefits because there's been some anti-gay bad apples in the bunch. If there's 'indoctrination', then the vast majority of it is good. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Scouting is not perfect, but it is good.
And I hope you can be introspective enough that it takes 'faith' to be an atheist too. There are those who are certain that God exists, you are certain there is no God. You're certainty carries no more validity, scientific or not, than there's. Each can be considered absurd since neither can be proven. Perhaps you're an agnostic?
You come in with a reasonable mind set, and I suppose I just feel the negatives outweigh the positives in this instance. Everyone's belief and mileage may vary. My troop was extremely progressive and I did learn a lot.
As for faith to be an atheist I would disagree. For a more thought-out (and very enriching) reason why, I suggest you visit QualiaSoup's youtube channel. He lays it out as concisely as the issue allows.
@Darkus. Thanks. I'll offer that this whole gay thing adult psycho babble. The boys who participate are largely oblivious to all this. It's not the Hitler youth you might fear. In my view, we need more organizations that teach there's a life beyond MTV, video games and professional sports. Many learn a love of the environment through scouts. Many (like may dad) had an alcoholic father and turned to the Scouts to find other examples of male role models. There's LOTS of good that comes out of Scouting. Unfortunately, the 800lb gorilla in the room has been the unfortunate anti-gay situation as pushed on the Scouts by religious groups. Yes, religious groups are the source of this, namely Mormons and Catholics.
I'm an agnostic. I've found peace with the idea that nobody knows the origins of the universe (or heavens). Anyone, who thinks they have the answers should be feared. -on both sides.
To be an atheist takes a degree of faith. Atheism is a belief system just as devoid of logic as any other theology. Since the absence of something can't be proven, it's scientifically impossible to prove their is no God. To get to atheism, you must have faith. Your turn.
Agnostic? Isn't that nothing more than a half-assed atheist?
What do Catholics have to do with the Scouts' policy? Straight-but-not-narrow, Catholic den leaders like myself want to know.
Mistermo: to be a atheist you must have faith? Here is a scientific fact for you, all things have an electrical charge including rocks. All things have something in common, that in itself proves intelligent design or the Alpha and Omega in everything.
One kilogram of antimatter could be used to create a 43 megaton explosion, which is larger than several thousand nuclear bombs. It has been the science fiction dream to harness this energy for space travel in place of nuclear or fossil fuel power. A speck of antimatter weighing one milligram would, in combonation with one milligram of matter, deliver more energy than two tons of rocket fuel.
Does it exist?
That's too bad. I'm sorry to see the Boy Scouts, give into a small minority that wants to impose their will on everyone.
Allowing flexibility rather than totalitarianism seems like it would always be a good thing.
Did you read the piece? The rule change would be about allowing local subsidiaries of the organization--including the many troops in gay-friendly communities--to set their own policies. That's the opposite of the organization imposing their will.
Small minority? Not what the polls say. As an Eagle Scout myself, I support this move and am one of the one's who have "imposed my will" on the Boy Scouts
Only it's NOT a minority you just think because all the people you know feel that way that the whole country does. That's called associating only with like minded people.
"give into a small minority"~
If you think this is a Gay issue, your mistaken. This is a Discrimination issue.
Many Christians and limited Government Conservatives support marriage equality; it's the small & loud fringe fundamentalist & reactionaries who cannot handle it.....
Now as a voting block and a buying public, politicians, business owners, and institutions like the BSA alike see the growing and changing tide of the LGBT and individual liberty demographic over the dying breed of the fringe fundamentalists.
For the long-term success of any organization, it must be able to reach gay and lesbian Americans and the millions of Americans who are related to and respect them. It's an issue of freedom for many!
cgtrav - and i could say the same for you. just because you surround yourself with people who oppose gay marriage or alternative lifestyles doesn't mean the rest of the country agrees with you.
just for clarification, but I'm pretty sure cgtrav agrees with you mindyabusiness. The Tasmanian Devil supports gay marriage and tolerance, he was pointing out to vx#'s that those who agree with gay marriage are NOT necessarily the minority, as evidenced by any national poll on the matter.
if they want those FEDERAL DOLLARS then they are going to have to.....if they want to become a PRIVATE organization that recieves no money from the federal government, then go right ahead. the point is, MY tax dollars were paying for THEIR bigotry.
@drowning and cgtrav - my bad dudes! We're on the same team.
@mindyabusiness and drowning
Glad we cleared that up.
hat tips all around :D
:golfclap:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNRvKviXbU0&NR=1&feature=fvwp
Wow...canteen boy will surely get molested now.
New career opportunities for former Catholic priests. Is this a great country or what?
Yeah, the Boy Scouts already have a problem with child molestation. This will make no difference, or it could drop the amount of molestation, because there will be a bunch of gay guys trying to prove that they are the greatest scout masters of all time instead of mostly pedophiles.
Actually, approximately 90% of all pedophiles/child molesters are heterosexual, married men, Snakehead (probably a lot like you).
Gay doesn't equal pedophile, people. Everyone relax.
Well said...too bad the homophobes don't realize this!!
I sure wouldn't feel comfortable sharing a tent with a gay. They should be in the Girl Scouts!
What the frig makes you think any gay person would be remotely interested in someone who calls himself "Mr. Binkie"?!
Rick,
With a name like Mr. Binkie I don't think he needs to fear women either.
heterosexual males are hilarious! not every gay dude they encounter wants to hook up with them. how egotistical can you get?
Hey, Canteen Boy! And who's that new, good-looking ASM getting out of the Scoutmaster's car? The abuse cases have just started! I hope the BSA has doubled their insurance coverage!
Texas - The Catholic Church has had way more reports of sexual abuse throughout history than the BSA. Time to stop putting religion over what's right.
Well done, BSA...and welcome to the 1980's, oh wait, 90's? You hurt a lot of boys in this lengthy and unnecessary homophobic stage. Glad you finally woke up and saw that sexual orientation has NOTHING to do with a boy being a child of character, citizenship and worth. Plus, I doubt he ties a knot any differently than a straight boy!! You finally caught up to Girl Scouts who have always included "Every Girl, Everywhere"!
Oh.My.God. I'm almost speechless. I didn't expect this. I'm happy but I didn't expect this. WOW. The pressure has worked, the internal pressure, pressure from scout troops across the country that are pro-gay, and boycotts and loss of revenue from companies. It's all come together. I'm just speechless, though. I think potentially the incident in Maryland was the final straw. Just unbelievable. This would be a huge, huge win for human rights, and lets be honest, a huge win for the gay community and our allies. But the biggest winner would be the KIDS AND PARENTS who are gay/lesbian/bisexual or are allies that don't want to participate in the BSA due to this discriminatory policy. They're the big winners in the end if this policy goes down.
Yes, they are the big winners.....except for the ones that got shot down in the battle. (sorry....gotta find a way to let my resentment fade so I can join in the celebration :-)
We should boycott the donor companies who threatened to pull their support.
They didn't "threaten to pull their support", they pulled it entirely and made any future support conditional on the BSA no longer being ignorant bigots.
The BSA has now lost all of its large corporate donors, and lost many millions of dollars in annual revenue. They've also lost several key board members who refused to be associated with dumb bigots.
And good luck with your boycott of Intel, UPS, and Merck.
'Individual sponsors and parents “would be able to choose a local unit which best meets the needs of their families,” Smith said.'
so...they'll let 'the gays' in..but they'll be segregated... alright BOY SCOUTS..now your only 60 years behind!!!
BSA= hate group
A hate group is a controlled crowd or association that promote and practices hostility, violence or hatred towards members of an ethnicity, a race, religion, sexual orientation gender or other selected sector of society. (dictionary.com)
where did they say they were going to start segregating? anybody is free to choose any troop they want. don't be so overly dramatic lol
At least under the new policy, a boy who discovers he is gay does not have to quit Boy Scouts altogether. He may need to find a more accommodating troop, but he no longer has to hide who he is. Lots of boys switch troops for lots of reasons. I'd prefer to see an official statement of non-discrimination, but at least now the boys in our council that are gay no longer have to be afraid of getting kicked out of an organization they joined LONG BEFORE they had any idea of what sex was, much less their sexual orientation.
@yay Easy there. This is the EXACT same policy the Girl Scouts have used for years. Has this led to segregation in Girl Scouts? Are Girl Scouts a HATE group too?
C'mon man, this is progress and I'll take it! We can't let perfection be the enemy of the good.
Just like the troubles the catholic church have gotten themselves into segregation between straight god fearing individuals and those with a mental illness like homosexuality should be separated. Otherwise expect lawsuits,losing many many members, and the eventual dissolve of the BSA.
MisterMo, The GSA has welcomed all girls for years. They have never revoked membership for any girl due to thier sexual orientation. Its time the BSA grew up and did the same.
Actually the Girl Scouts have a nationwide non-discrimination policy.
What the Boy Scouts are doing with their new policy is essentially the same as their pre-1974 policy about race, where they let local troops make the decision about being whites-only.
That policy was just as bigoted, ignorant and wrong 40 years ago as the new policy is today. The only good thing about the new policy is that the haters in the local troops will no longer be able to blame the BSA, and will have to take responsibility for their own bigotry.
Nice one-eighty, BSA!
Sodom and Gemorrah, here we come!
...already there...this is just the beginning.
yawn. blah blah blah doom blah gloom blah death blah..
you guys have been predicting god's wrath for 2000 years. lol. failed every time. I am sure you will continue to fail. :)
ahhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!! the sky is falling !! the sky is falling !!! nooooooooooooooo !!!!
we are no longer discriminating against certain groups of people ! *gasp* that means the end of the world !!! cats and dogs will start getting along !!!!
Madonna will have another hit song !!!! (maybe even a hit MOVIE since the world is ending !) ahhhhhhhhhh !!!!!
this is horrible !!!!!!!!!
(oh yea.. in case you didn't get it.. this was all said in sweet, sweet sarcasm :) )
Like I said Vermont, this is just the beginning...in about 25 years our complete disregard for God and the Bible will be revealed. Just think about it, would you want another man jamming his Rod up your butt hole and releasing himself? Ever been to Prison? It's disgusting.
so we have to wait 25 more years, huh? Out of curiosity, how many "Friedman Units" is that?
you should seek help...
HarleMan, what is your obsession with male anal sex about?
Maybe now NAMBLA and BSA can merge......
Glad my kids are out of scouting.
homophobes are OBSESSED with gay sex. oh what's that you say? the gay couple down the street bought a sandwich shop? DID THEY HAVE GAY SEX WITH IT FIRST? calm down yall. you sound crazy and repressed like you've got all kinda secrets you don't want leaking out.
Harle you do realize its not only homosexual men who have anal sex right? Heterosexual couples have anal sex all the time. So if your going to criticize how 2 gay men have sex maybe you should be critical of how heterosexual couples have sex as well.
Yet - heterosexual couples can perform straight sex (as the body is designed) & can reproduce.
Gay couples can't reproduce. Thus > gay by nurture, not nature.
It is nature as it happens among other species of animal as well. Explain how animals also develop homosexual relations with others of their species like humans do? These acts can't be nutured by animals. It's been documented and even proven by trying to take a male species that was "mated" to another male and put it with a female. They documented that neither were attracted to each other nor mated and that the male actually pined for it's previous partner.
Provided this is true, it's just pawning the issue off on the local Scouting organizations who then will be slowly forced to give in because the national organization shifted their policy. To say this is poor management is an understatement -- either change your mind and give your reasons (as weak they may be), or stand your ground.
Not everybody thinks national governing bodies should make absolute rules for everyone.
In many cases, it means the local organizations no longer need to fear that National will find out they've allowed gay scouts to remain in their troops. Many local Boy Scout troops/councils have quietly been ignoring this national policy for years.
It's about time that the Boy Scouts join the 21 century, instead of living in the 18 century.
David lol... I'd suggest you might start with 1620, the date recorded as the Pilgrim's landing on the North American continent in a harbor that became the state of Massachusetts.
Actually the Pilgrims exemplified a fundamentalist religious approach to life and even the word "sex" was avoided by them for the most part. However, in the old world (Europe one example) what we today call sexual preference was, for the males, not condemnatory as we would term it today. It has been a strong part of human cultures going back to Greece and Rome.
One account I read pointed out that we don't hear much of them until more and more groups of people, adventurers, explorers, and also, actually, what was sometimes called fundamentalist escapees fled here to our continent. The 19th century (the Victorian era) became religiously structured anti-Catholic although back to Heny XIII three centuries earlier, the anti-Catholicism was more political than religious.
I think it all boils down to some basic truisms... 1) human beings don't clone; 2) the more absolute extremism of any behaviors and beliefs are ultimately dysfunctional; 3) moderation is not known for advances in civilization.
All contradictory if you think about it. All true in any numbers of instances. So, it's up to the human brain to look to oneself, staying in touch with ideals by learning to avoid the down stuff of the past.
We cannot change nor even control any human being, except ourselves. And the challenge there is learning what we can, and should what we must chose to aspire towards.
I have some doubts that they will allow gay members and leaders. Especially considering that there was an article printed this morning or yesterday stating a group was forced to change their policy in accepting gay members because of the pressure of losing their charter by the BSA. Why put pressure on a group to reverse their decision when BSA is looking at their own policies because of the threat of losing donations from both sides? It'll be interesting to see what BSA decides. Either way, they will be losing donations from one side or the other.
Too little. Too late.
Reparations need to be made and need to be made immediately if this ban goes down. Apologies, badges need to be given to troops who have been snuffed out of the BSA, starting with Ryan Andresen in California. I want to see atheists allowed in the troops as well and delete all discrimination. This decision looks more like a "the tide has turned and so we better get out before we're completely destroyed as an organization", whether it is that or not, that's what it looks like. But give credit to those who are in the BSA who have fought from the inside to change this policy too.
thank god... now maybe we can do something about those drab uniforms, and boring parade floats! You go girls!
LOL!!! The best of the day!
Fabulous!!!
Oh no! Here comes merit badges in interior decorating and hairdressing.
Way to go girls!!! Ha Ha ...
You will have to be more specific who you are talking to now. Are you talking to the girls or the boys? ... New uniforms ? I think just something in a nice pastel pink, or a paisley would work well for these boys now.
I am sorry, but there is no way in the world I'd let one of my kids ever join the boy scouts now! I'll teach them the proper way about things, and you can send your kids to the Pee Wee Herman Troop for their training.
Let's see Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean and Reverend ... ahhh, there it is ... that's the one I was looking for! Reverend. You will have to build yur tents from asbestos when God reads about this one. Man, the atheists will be out biting now like bed lice!
Big mistake Boy Scouts of America. You'll find out the hard way though, like you have historicaqlly done with a lot of things. You caved in to a very sick group of people, and the BSA will be gone within 3 years I am betting.
reverent, don you want reverent. a state of being. a reverend is a noun, a person. the leader of a church congregation. were you ever in the scouts? if so, did you pay attention?
way to go guy!!! Ha Ha...
That's sad.. the BSA was the last heterosexual bastion remaining in America. All others have given in to pressure from the homosexual community, even the Government. How can the BSA not see that a person having an abnormal attraction to the same sex is not going to have that same unnatural attraction to the children to which they have been intrusted?
There is no hetreosexual bastion and never has been. Every group of people you have ever been associated with has included gay members.
And STFU with the pedophilia thing.
Pilot, just wait and see what starts to happen on these overnight camping trips. As for you out there saying that Gay's aren't Pedophiles, I grew up in the 70's in NYC and they would prowl Broadway and Riverside Park harrasing us 14 and 15 year old boys to hang out with them or offer us wine, beer or weed. Stop the Bull$#$! to say there are no Pedophile Gays is crazy, I am sure they were successful on some occasions of seducing a child just like a Heterosexual pedophile. I would not trust my son overnight with an OPENLY GAY male, PERIOD!
start your own private "heterosexual bastion". Go for it instead of whining about what others are doing!
how can you not understand that homosexuality isn't the same as pedophilia? oh, that's right, because you are hateful and clueless. :)
What's abnormal is you having the right to judge others based on your beliefs.
Judge not lest ye be judged.
heheheehhe ! i love it when homosexuality is compared to pedophilia especially considering MOST pedophiles are actually HETEROSEXUAL MEN ! (that's right ! that includes the pedophiles who molest young boys -- they are HETEROSEXUAL MEN !)
hahaahhahahahahahhah !!!!
newsflash. No they weren't, gays have been part of the BSA since the BSA were founded, the only change here is the BSA policy towards them...
Hey Phoeny, I got news for you if you molest boys or have consesual sex with men you are no longer a Heterosexual, you can play one in the world but in your heart and mind you are Gay. Laugh at that.
agreed on that one... no straight guy will want anything to do with ANY of that. Only a fool would believe they were hetero
Wait, did I miss something? Heterosexuals, who outnumber homosexuals by far, need bastions to protect them?
I'll laugh because you really need to do the research before spouting off knowledge regarding homosexuals and pedophilia.
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/explaining-pedophilia
So per the article Harleman, you can see that homosexuals and pedophilia is not the same thing as one deals with sexual orientation (homosexuals) and one is a mental condition (pedophilia). And as the article also states, its hard to determine what sexual orientation the individual harboring pedophile thoughts because most do not act on them. Trying to link homosexuals to pedophila is the most retarded thing to do as there have been way too many cases showing that both men AND women have an attraction to children, regardless of sex. The more educated you become the more understanding you'll have of the matter. Until then, you are sharing ignorant thoughts and fears.
So perhaps homosexuality IS A MENTAL CONDITION and not just a "sexual orientation" then? I firmly believe it is but since somehow we have reached a point where its "OK" no one wants to try and "fix" it. I believe it is the same type of mental illness just like pedophilia and other brain diseases (Parkinson's for example) but the issue is no one wants to "fix" this problem and just tell everyone it's ok and you must have the problem if you have any issue with it.
Oh and yes the fact people try and say "Heterosexuals" are the biggest pedophiles is a misnomer. So all the "gay" men who have lived "double" lives are they GAY or Straight? What is it? I mean they have wifes/kids/families too right but are they GAY or not? Were they living a lie? What is it exactly. I'm sorry if you are having sex with 14 year old boys and you are a man then you're Gay by the definition and this is a fact the gay community constantly tries to distort. Why? Because it totally wrecks the agenda that nothing is wrong in the head of a gay person and its a bunch of straight heterosexual men who have this issue while most of the data says "WRONG" its Homosexual men who have this problem. You have to say its one or the other you can't use the "other" checkbox for this.. Sorry all facts are facts and it bothers me that this has gotten so twisted. Yeah if a 35 year old man is having sex with 13 year old girls then he is a hetrosexual pedophile. If its 13 year old boys then he is a Homosexual Pedophile. Funny we don't see the prefix on most of these cases do we?
vermontguy
While I support LGBT in their beliefs I believe it is they who had issue with your line.
Sorry to burst your theory, but it's already been proven by the APA that homosexuality is not, NOT, a mental condition.
http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx
Just because the APA says it, doesn't mean it is so. A statement from them is also quite different from having proved it. You may be aware that there are still many national psychological and psychiatric associations that do still list is as a disorder. So using your logic, one can easily argue it is a disorder, which, of course, it is. And who are you to say that the American idea has precedence. That sounds like your are pushing your American values on other people. You should be more tolerant and open-minded! Furthermore, at least two past presidents of the APA have opined how the decision to remove it was due to pressure from the homosexual community.
If you are not aware, the APA is also now considering declassifying pedophilia as a disorder, which speaks much to their lack of credibility. There are also many voices- all on the left and mostly homosexuals not coincidentally- who are also pushing for the decriminalization of it, and abolishment of age of consent laws. And why is it that groups like NAMBLA are accepted as part of the homosexual movement, are allowed to march in every "pride" parade, are never chastized for the open advocacy of pedophilia? I am not saying that homosexuality and pedophilia are the same, as they are not, but those with the homosexual disorder are about 25 times more likely to molest children.
They are not looking to declassify as a disorder, they are looking to reclassify it which is where the controversy is. It will still be labeled as a mental disorder but certain criteria has to be met which is still being debated currently and that is where the APA is catching heat for it.
Homosexuality is not viewed as a disorder though as it is strictly dealing with sexuality. It's something that is seated in natural accurances where pedophilia is not.
State of Awareness,
Natural accurances......WTF.....pedo.......naked gay unicycle rodeo......pretty much normal in Seattle.
We also have the animal molesters here is Western Washington, ponies, chickens, ducks, geese, dogs, etc., all pretty natural accurances, (S of A's word). Folks from Seattle loving the country!
Great, just great. They kicked out my son just last year. Think it's too late to get him reinstated? Ah well, he's too far off of the Eagle Track now. If they do follow through, I will be so happy for the boys coming up in the ranks. We have found no real substitute for the skills and life lessons that one can get from the scouts (except for the obvious shortcomings).
Unfortunately, I cannot begin to describe the devastation this has caused my family.....this son is the youngest of four and the other three have already earned their Eagles. The youngest wouldn't let them give the "prize" back, but they now take their pride from their youngest brother's courage and determination to be true to himself. But I will forever be angry about the insidious stain that the BSA put on so many of our family's memories.
I've never understood the hypocrisy of the far left, gays...etc. Why dont they just create their own groups based on their OWN lifestyles, orientation and beliefs? Instead they want to be part of groups that were founded and based on everything liberals, gays and minorities despise!! All of these things were created by white, religious, primarily conservative groups.
So, is it that you are trying to get "revenge" and throw it in everyones face for discounting you over the years...despite the fact your lifestyle, orientation and beliefs were the anithesis of the basis for such groups? Or, are the heterosexual, conservative programs just SO good, you have to be a part of them. It's kind of like people in the black community wanting to join the KKK. LOL!!
Wow.
Duh!!! because that would be segregation.
So do you like segregation??????
" It's kind of like people in the black community wanting to join the KKK"
Is it? So you are saying that the BSA is a hate organization like the KKK? Interesting.
Hmmm...LOL!! Uh, according to the impulsive liberal posts about bigotry, hatred and intolerance...YEAH, I'd say the BSA is most certainly a hate organization. They DID discriminate against homoexuals for decades upon decades didn't they. Isn't that your definition of hate, bigotry, sexism, racism and intolerance? To simply deny you in any way at all?
Eagle scout here. Good job BSA! Before hand it was "Don't ask, don't tell".
Former eagle Scout here as well Matt. You know as well as I do that once young boys are identified as being gay they will have the wrath of straight scouts coming down on them all of the time. I cannot imagine the ridicule and verbal harrassment they will take. I would go along with this if the troops are all gay. Otherwise I feel for these poor little kids. I am really against this.
Steve, perhaps you're correct in some communities but about 6years ago I remember asking my then 16 year old niece about the two guys we saw holding hands and she didn't know what I was talking about. She didn't even know why I'd asked. This generation is much more accepting then my generation was and is even now (I'm 56).
I'd say there's hope for us yet.
I have a 4 year old son that I refuse to allow to join the Boys Scouts because of their discrimination policies and history of sexual abuse. My son will be raised to be caring, compassionate, and tolerant environment where everyone is treated equally regardless of their differences. Boy Scouts obviously do not share these same values as my family. Until they change their policies I will continue to boycott them entirely.
They should look to the Girl Scouts to see how to adapt to a changing world and how to include everyone, not just the people they think need to fit their demographic profile. I will always support the Girl Scouts and buy cookies from whomever asks me because they share the same values that are important to my family and much needed in this diverse and intolerant world.
If you are keeping away from BSA, but still want to find a youth group for your son that will teach responsibility, patriotism, leadership... try looking into whether there is a DeMolay International chapter in your area. It is a wonderful group, just less well-known than BSA.
FreyjasSong, Thank you for the suggestion. He is currently in Spiral Scouts but I am not a fan of our group and it is the only one in our area. I'm going to look into DeMolay and get more info.
if a gay scout tries to join spiral scouts, are you gonna pull your son out and move him somewhere else?
Why would I move my son anywhere? We embrace everyone regardless of race, sexual orientation, religion, gender, etc. I would be delighted that he was in such a diverse group, inclusive of gays, and meeting new people who are different from him.
sierra - hell yeah!
Her son should join Girl Scout Troop!
Great. Let's all put on our tightest jeans and prance around tossing confetti. What's the deal with the never ending media and politically correct bunch's preoccupation with gay "rights," anyway? Good grief, you'd think that a big majority of Americans are gay and only a small minority is heterosexual. Do straight people have any activity or group they can belong to that doesn't have to be defensive about being straight? It's gotten to where being polite and tolerant almost isn't enough; the vocal minority seems to believe you have to "celebrate" gay "rights" or be accused of being a bad person or organization.
"doesn't have to be defensive about being straight?"
Why do you have to be defensive about who yuo are in order to include people who are different from you?
"prance around tossing confetti"? how about we just make fun of your silly post instead.
what's the preoccupation with equal rights? maybe because this is america, where everyone should have equal rights? crazy idea I know. :)
I was wondering the same thing Mike. From 3 to 4 per cent of the population, then extrapolate out the ones 15 or 16 years old. Hell, that can't be many people.
yank - you're right but they have allies. just like african-americans and so many other minority groups had throughout history.
Mike, are we not a nation that was founded on the principle that everyone is created equal? If we are then everyone - gay or straight - should have the same rights. If we are not, then we have been living a lie. Anyway, tight jeans are in fashion right now and everyone tosses confetti now and again. Being polite and tolerant isn't enough when the person you are being polite and tolerant of cannot marry the person he or she loves.
everyone is created equal?
seriously? That all sounds good, but look around. Pretty obvious that is surely not the case.
The MSM would have us believe that being straight and white is a biological defect. Can I get some kind of government redistribution for my defect?
Special rights. The recognition of sexual preference is not a minority and sex is not a right.
Well, it's something to strive for anyway. It's how I live my life - identifying any prejudices I may have and work to understand or overcome them.
equal in importance, obviously people are not born equal, it doesnt mean literally equal, it means your life is as important as anyone elses
I am so sick of organizations caving on their beliefs. Why in the world would gay people want to be part of an organization that doesn't want them??? Start your own organization.
Not every member of BSA is as homophobic as you.
My son didn't realize he wasn't wanted. He just wanted to follow in his older brothers' footsteps. And his troop did want him....he was their patrol leader. But word got out in our small town that he had a boyfriend. His troop still apparently doesn't know the real reason he left and thinks that it was to pursue athletics at school. We got a registered letter from the regional Council Office. What a crock.
What's hilarious is that we're still getting billed for the sizable pledge we made to the BSA last year before the shoe dropped on us. We sent the money to PFLAG instead.
Jock, just because you are gay doesn't mean the whole world has to celebrate it and incorporate it into their daily lives. A person or an organization can tolerate homosexuality without being forced to incorporate it. You lefties are always screaming for freedom from religion but you should know that it works both ways. Those who hold religeous beliefs(BSA is founded on them) should not be forced to accept entities that run counter to those beleifs--especially when being forced means infringing on those religious beliefs. Many who espouse the views of liberal left have become all too predictable as of late. Anyone who doesn't support everything Obama does is racist and everyone that doesn't celebrate homosexuality is homophobic. Who is truly being judgemental here?
Wryview,
I agree with you. Why is it that the Gay Rights agenda wants to change an organization such as the Boy Scouts? It a disagreement about choices the religious organization that are the backbone of this organization disagree about people choosing to live a homosexual lifestyle. (and before anyone says "It's not a choice" rember there has been no, 0, zilch, zip nadda, scientific evidence that proves that there is any genetic, phisical, or chemical, predisposition to being a homosexual, in short noone has been able to "prove" you are born that way so we are left with a choice nomore no less.) This choice goes against the groups beliefs and as such we should not make people choose between being faithful to their beliefs and being sued/persicuted by a political agenda. Let the BS have there system set the way they have it. If PFLAG or GLAd or whatever wants to have its own GLBT Scouts then I am all for it.
Way to go, knitwit. If they change their national policy, maybe your local PFLAG chapter can start their own troop with full inclusivity.
@Mike, I guess you have never been to Mardi Gras or any of the Caribbean/South American Carnivals/Carnivales, etc. The heterosexual displays are even more "vulgar" than anything I ever saw at any of the gay pride parades I attended, including the 25th Stonewall Anniversary march where I helped to carry the mile long rainbow flag with a full dress uniform marine right next to me.
GodblessAmerica, does this sound familiar?
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."
Why are you bent on disrupting the founding principle of this country when your name is "GodBlessAmerica". If you believe in this country, you believe in these words.
Complete hypocracy
I'll tell you why they don't want to start their own organization. That would be too easy for them. They are more into ranting a nd raving pushing their own queer agenda on everyone else. I say let em in. Good luck to them on weekend campouts and camporees.!! Make sure you little guys keep your pants up and your sleeping bags zipped up tight! God only knows what you may find sticking out of your little butts come morning! LMAO
steve - the fact that you're making jokes about raping little boys says more about you than it does the bsa or the "queer agenda."
Jock - I'm not afraid of gays. I just don't think they should be able to tell a PRIVATE organization they have to accept people who don't abide by their values. If you don't like the Boy Scout's values, then don't join.
why do left winged people try to force feed there beliefs on every organization they seem to think don't fit into their life style?? can you not start another group?? do we have to give up our right to
believe in what we think is correct just to satisfy others?? why must we believe that homosexuality is OK?? because you do?? we have our right just as you have your right. this is a Christan organization based on certain beliefs. if you don't agree, don't join. nobody is forcing the BSA on you.. why is so important to change our beliefs to fit yours. i really don't care what your sexual preference is, but i don't want it forced on me or my child. this is not bigotry, this is my belief. i would not send my teen daughter out with a man to spend the night, nor would i send my son out with a gay man to spend the night. i see no difference in the two. bash if you like.. it doesn't change my belief or my right to have MY OPINION.
Glad somebody is admitting to that. Now start making them pay in full to use tax-payer funded buildings and lands, stop giving them subsidies, stop using DoD money to fund their jamborees, like any other private religious club. That's the biggest problem I have. They have special treatment, because the mission used to be centered around leadership and being a good citizen. If they want to change their message to one of religiousity, end government involvement in them. End my money going to them. I'll support them if I choose to.
PragFagic.........it's a privately funded organization...duh. Your money is going to buy phones for crack hoes and EBT junkies....duh.
Why would gays want to be boy scouts? Are you kidding me? Tight short - shorts, hiking boots, open shirt, scarf, Smokey the bear hat and aviator sun glasses...that's totally gaymanly! Don't forget to pack the vaseline.
Vaseline goes in your poopus
So, what good comes from this? It will probably end up as fragmented, divided, as the rest of this stupid country because of "political correctness". Why do we have to hear constantly about f'ing gay rights? Why does 90% of the population have to constantly hear this crap about 10% of the population?
No good will come of this. Why don't they start their own organization. No different than girls wanting to join. It's called BOY scouts and in case you gays havent heard, your way of life is not wanted in this organization. Go suck a rope somewhere else.
I know, right? It'll be just like when those little black boys wanted to join our whites-only troops. No good came of that either.
Some boys are straight, some are gay. It sounds like the BSA is finally recognizing that simple fact.