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Brennan Linsley / AP file
In this photo, reviewed by a U.S. Dept of Defense official, a detainee shields his face as he peers out through the so-called "bean hole" which is used to pass food and other items into detainee cells, at Camp Delta detention center, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, on Dec. 4. 2006.
The issue is one of more than two dozen on the docket for a week of pretrial hearings that began on Monday in the war crimes tribunal at the Guantanamo Bay U.S. Naval Base in Cuba.
The defendants include Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the accused mastermind of the hijacked plane attacks that killed 2,976 people on September 11, 2001. He wore a camouflage jacket to court over his white tunic and defiantly refused to answer the judge's questions.
President George W. Bush announced in 2006 that the September 11 defendants were among a group of "high-value" captives sent to Guantanamo from the secret prisons.
The CIA has acknowledged that Mohammed was subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding. The defendants said they were also subjected to sleep deprivation, threats, and being chained in painful positions.
The defense lawyers will argue that their clients' treatment was illegal pretrial punishment and constituted "outrageous government misconduct" that could justify dismissal of the charges, or at least spare the defendants from execution if convicted.
"By its nature, torture affects the admissibility of evidence, the credibility of witnesses, the appropriateness of punishment and the legitimacy of the prosecution itself," the defense lawyers wrote in court documents.
At least one potential witness was also held in the CIA prisons and his treatment could raise questions about the admissibility of his testimony, said James Connell, defense attorney for Mohammed's nephew, defendant Ali Abdul-Aziz Ali.
The chief prosecutor, Brigadier General Mark Martins, said the prosecution does not plan to introduce any evidence obtained from the defendants or anyone else via torture, cruelty or inhuman treatment - which is prohibited by U.S. law and international treaty.
In a departure from the Bush administration, the Obama administration has made it clear that any interrogation techniques must adhere to those long established in the army field manual, which prohibits torture.
The defendants have been in U.S. custody for a decade, but there are still numerous legal and evidentiary issues that must be resolved before their trial begins on charges that include murder, hijacking, terrorism and attacking civilians.
The judge presiding over the September 11 trial, Army Colonel James Pohl, ordered in 2004 that the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq be preserved as a "crime scene." He was at the time presiding over the trial of U.S. military police officers accused of torturing and photographing prisoners at Abu Ghraib.
Iraq was then under U.S. occupation. It was unclear whether Pohl had authority to order the preservation of the CIA prisons, whose location the government has kept secret, arguing that disclosure could threaten U.S. national security and put allies at risk.
Polish prosecutors are investigating allegations that one of the sites was in Poland, and there is evidence the CIA set up others in Romania, Lithuania and Thailand, according to reports by the Council of Europe and the United Nations.
Lawyers for the September 11 defendants first made the request for preservation of the secret CIA prisons under seal in September of last year. The request was unsealed about a month later. But this week's pre-trial hearing marks the first time it has been presented in the Guantanamo court.
Before considering the CIA prisons issue, the court on Monday began slogging through issues such as whether the defendants had agreed to add lawyers to two defense teams and drop one from another and whether they must show up in court for pretrial hearings.
When two of them refused to answer whether they had approved the personnel changes, the judge took their lawyers' word for it that they had.
But he said he would not grant their request to skip some court sessions unless they first acknowledged vocally that they understood they had the right to be present for discussions that could affect their legal rights.
"They're going to have to tell me out of their own mouths, or they'll be here," Pohl said.
After a chaotic May 2012 arraignment session that dragged on for 13 hours, the defendants have alternated between refusing to speak to the judge and making accusatory statements against the United States. Although they largely ignored the judge on Monday, they whispered to their lawyers and appeared to be reading legal documents.
Mohammed and his nephew are Pakistani citizens. The other defendants are Walid bin Attash and Ramzi Binalshibh, both Yemenis, and Mustafa al Hawsawi, a Saudi.
Family members of 9/11 victims have traveled to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, to watch the arraignment of alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who reportedly refused to listen to the judge or answer questions during Saturday's proceedings. NBC's Michael Isikoff reports.
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These lawyers seem willing to extend American rights and freedoms to the very people who would destroy those rights and freedoms. Oh well, any money and publicity is good for a lawyer!
It's not American rights woody, it's human rights. I suppose you also believe in the American alphabet rather than that sissy English alphabet. You see everyone on the planet deserves justice and humane treatment. I think these men were cheated out of justice when we got all vindictive and instead of punishing them under the law we subjected them to extra-judicial measures of punishment.
Awww, now it is time to start shedding tears for people who blow people up. I am all out of tears, and I have none left for terrorists. They have done so much worse to us. These are the kinds of people who do physical harm to women or even kill them just because they break some minor Sharia rule. These are the kind of people who do beheadings in the town square. These are the kind of people who think all the rest of us should die because we don't believe as they do. Gimme a break.....I am not ready to get all mushy about the poor terrorists. This is not the time to demonize the CIA. We need them. There are bad people out there and it is their job to keep them from our shores. This man explains that clearly:
This is an interview with Fred Rustmann, a CIA officer of high rank who goes back as far as the cold war.
http://www.newsmax.com//Manage/Videos/VideoGallery/Rustmann#ooid=VoaGZrMzqZkDRzSYzOM_zuaYPcSD78Kp
It is on the issue of covert operations and the need for the CIA to be strong.
Any excuse to spend money...The U.S. Government!
Maybe some good can come from this...George Bush and Dick Cheney convicted of War Crimes!
Unless your an American citizen you are not protected by the same Constitutional Rights As Americans.And do we really believe defense Attorneys that would protect monsters such as these,That bomb,decapatate,throw acid on their own family members,raping young girls,old perverts marring little girls,They are beasts that would love for America to be destroyed??
I don't believe a word of their supposed tortoured,how about the very real pain people in the Twin Towers jumping to their death,those that suffocated from smoke,fire,the terror of those in the planes,The children,these are the People I care about and their family's, And the effect these monster terrorist and their barbarian acts of inhumanity have had on America.
I car not a damn about them being uncomfortable or scared....
We're not talking about constitutional rights, this is about human rights. The fact that you seem to be fine with torture and secret military prisons, both of which fly in the face of everything your country supposedly stands for, is a pretty serious problem. If these men are guilty of carrying out despicable acts then let a court of law find them as such and punish them appropriately. Doing anything less makes you no better than them.
Not every lawyer feels that way. Some, like me, are passionate about the security of the nation. I would not represent these terrorists as clients. However, that is my prerogative. I get to pick and choose who I represent. War crimes and offenses during times of warfare or combat are particularized cases. But, I cannot say the attorney’s request is unreasonable. It is standard practice for lawyers to ask the court to preserve a situs as evidence for criminal cases. So, his request likely will be granted. Or – if the evidence has been espoiled, then their request is moot. In any case, I’m curious as to why this was so important to write a news article about it. Just brings more attention to those that harmed United States citizens.
Wrong. But now let's just execute the bastards and get it over with. We don't give trials to those we hit with drones.
You guys don't get it. The reason torture is around is because of a dirty little secret - torture works. Ask John McCain. Ask William Stockdale. Ask anyone who has actually been tortured. If you were tortured, you would tell them anything that they asked within 2 days.
Pulling fingernails out is torture. Breaking collarbones and hanging from the ceiling is torture. Cutting off fingers is torture. The US Goverment does not do this.
Sittting in an uncomfortable chair is not torture (I did this for 30 years). Sleep deprivation is not torture. Waterboarding is torture (the way that it was done for over 1,000 years), but the US Govt does not do this. Simulated waterboarding (what the US Govt actually does) is NOT torture, but is equally as effective.
You think that aggressive tactics are 'bad' because you have weak stomaches. Time to grow up and realize that the human species is not nice - as humans, we are mean, vicious and ugly. Saudi Arabia does what we would consider torture, but the US Govt does not.
Time to grow up. In war, the team that is not willing to do whatever it takes to win is called the loser - and this is just a fact. The 'team' that wins has to be willing to be more ruthless than the opposition. Playing nice does not win any war. If we had not eliminated the draft - then you might know a little about this.
And NBC - please publish the names and locations of the lawyers. I would like to know who supports the terrorists who have attacked this country.
This is not the time to become "politically Correct", shed tears for terrorists whose "human rights" have been violated but scorn our soldiers who get tortured, mutilated and dragged in the streets by terrorists and their host country. You cannot play "nice" when you are at war. Liberalism is a disease that will destroy this country.
There are no liberals or conservatives in our country when it comes to murderous fanatics like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Just convict him, apply Islamic codes of justice during his execution and then catapult the rest of him over to Castro's side of the fence.
Woodysr
You don't get it. A guy that rapes your daughter or murderers that are American citizens are also our enemies in very much the same way as the terrorists.
It is more important to be who we say we are because it is more dibilitating to our justice system and our way of life if we do not treat all people and criminals the same.
I strongly believe those guys in Guantanamo are guilty vile people just like some American killer, so why can't we try them the same as all our enemies.
After WW2, the trials held for the worst of the worst were public. All trials should be public. Secrets from the people in these cases is unnecessary. If we find out we have done some things that are a disgrace to the meaning of Americanism, we can face up to it then do something about it.
We are in Iraq (yes we are still there in large numbers) and Afgahanistan because so many things were hidden from us and we were told lies. Had we known the truth, we would have dealt with all that in a way where we actually win.
Remember the one about how the oil would pay for the Iraq war, or the one where we were bringing them Democracy? A total crock of sh!t.
We have thousands of soldiers and tens of thousands of high cost mercinaries that are there to protect the oil that the rights to which have been given to all the oil giants. So, we pay at the pump plus we pay in taxes for those there to guard the oil for people that are really sticking it to us.
We have to get off the idiot partisan pundits on the TV and get to finding out what is really going on before we all wind up as drones in the Neo Third World, where we will be chained to the wheel of industry and owe everything and own nothing.
Motz in KC
I like it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Apply his own laws of Sharia, no defensive witnesses, present the evidence and convict him. Decapitate him at noon the next day with a dull butter knife, then play buzkashi with his head.
Justis4u,
I'm glad to hear you wouldn't represent these monsters,And certainly did not imply all Attorneys would,I've had great Attorneys and those that would do anything for a Dollar,so good for you and stick by your principles,Something we should all do,And you should be respected for it as well.
Papag,
As far as Human Rights go,America is very very compliant and gives more to criminals than they deserve,No,torture is not what America does,It's What they do,We treat both domestic and foreign Criminals better than our Homeless,Have you seen or heard the way Americans are treated Abroad in third world Country's?
They are screaming torture because they know it will get the Bleeding hearts Attention,Guess they were right,because this should be a non-story.
Pippo.., I am on my third glass of wine...i'll respond later, but you did seem to have some points....But I need to look into your BS
If one goes face to face, hammer to hammer with a group committed to your destruction, you will follow the rules of knightly combat? Great Idea. The history books will relate your extinction. Me? I'll cheat!
The judicial system has already determined that the constitutional protections of due process and free speech extend to anyone on US soil. That was many years ago. So it doesn't matter if they were US citizens or not, they were on US soil when they were apprehended and they must go through a US court system to determine their guilt. Which brings me to the real core of the argument, regardless of what people personally feel, they must be given due process and right to a fair trial. That includes the innocent until proven guilty part.
This is for a very good reason. If the US Government could remove civil liberties / due process protections from anyone it deemed a "terrorist", without due process / trial, then we've ceased being a democracy. The ones in power could just label the competition "terrorists" and have them thrown in jail.
EX
2008 election season. (then) President Bush see's an upcoming Democrat Senator as a potential rival for his parties replacement. Evidence is fabricated indicating this Senator was responsible for some terrorist attack, none of this evidence is released to public due to executive privilege. Said Senator then has extraordinary rendition on them in the middle of the night. Senator is moved to prison outside of USA where US laws no longer apply and is tortured then eventually "convicted" in a kangaroo court in a third world country.
That's a bit extreme, but remember members of that party were already claiming that Senator wasn't a "real" American citizen and attacked him with slanderous and outrageous claims. Called him "Muslim" and many went on national TV and said that senator "supported terrorists". Bypassing due process to remove a major threat, or even minor ones is something that any government administration would pursue.
So yes we extend due process to guys we're 100% sure are "bad". We do it to ensure that it's always afforded to everyone, even the people the government finds "inconvenient".
Funny that a torture apologist like yourself would bring up McCain, given that he said that the torture he experienced resulted in false confessions which were used for propaganda purposes.
McCain says that the waterboarding the US practiced under Bush is absolutely, unequivocally torture. And under the Convention Against Torture, stress positions and sleep deprivation are torture - especially as practiced by the US.
You might want to learn a little more about the subject, and what constitutes torture under the anti-torture treaty we wrote and signed under Reagan.
Just an FYI, the US has become very good at torture practices which leave few physical marks, but are psychologically very damaging. It's still torture, and it's absolutely illegal under domestic and international law.
What's weird is that you consider that to be a weakness rather a strength.
George Washington was the first American to denounce torture.
How far we fell. Not only is this evidence relevant, but it should be used to prosecute Cheney, Addington, Yoo, Libby, Armitage and at least a dozen other officials who orchestrated, instituted, justified or ordered war crimes.
Cul-that is quite profound and why I like reading your thoughts.
Exactly. If we stoop to their level, we can't still then claim to be any better....
Can we just takes these scum out & shoot them & get it over with. Why waste my tax dollars on a trial for these idiots!
Dave if we did that , then what differentiates us from the terrorist? We are a civilized society that adheres to the rule of law, not the rule of the jungle.
Dispense with trials? You might not think that was a good idea if it were you in jail. Lynchings were outlawed a long time ago for good reason.
I agree with Dave. Some of you treat these terrorists as if they are criminals who just robbed a 7-11 store. We are at WAR. You can't play "nice" at war. War means you either win or lose. No wonder we are losing wars because of these mushy feelings.
When an individual is captured in a war, they're considered prisoners of war and the treaties we've signed along with international law prohibits torture. Also, under US law, evidence obtained under duress is inadmissible in a court case regardless of the crime committed. These rules for legal proceedings have been around far longer than the sting of 9/11 and if you discount them the moment it's inconvenient to follow them, then the justice system as a whole suffers. Recall that this is a justice system that citizens have fought and died for in numerous conflicts throughout our history. By negating it when you're pissed off about a crime committed, you're basically spitting in the faces of those who have defended it.
So lets put them in an American prison system where their radical Islamic words would resonate with more than 1/4 of the Muslim and potentially Muslim population behind bars? Smart. Guess multiplying our domestic threat is part of your peaceful ideas....
Maybe the lawyers could go for an extended visit. After all just think of the wealth of evidence they could gather in just a few years of being there 24/7.
In what world were you ever a left leaning voter?
Dixiecrat.
The majority of those released from Guantanamo have returned to perpetrating terrorism against the US. But some naive people want to play nice anyway, ah, Polly Anna lives!
Proof?
Please quote your source.
Zona how about some recent news- A former al-Qaeda terrorist released from Guantanamo Bay is believed to be the leader of the attack on the US consulate in Benghazi, Libya, that killed four Americans, including the US Ambassador.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2205825/Sufyan-Ben-Qumu-Former-Gitmo-inmate-planned-al-Qaeda-attack-Libyan-consulate.html#ixzz2JJXAnAKR
viknat... Woodysr said "The majority of those released from Guantanamo have returned to perpetrating terrorism against the US." ZonaChris asked for "Proof?" Before you jump on Zona's back, he was disputing the word "majority". In that respect, you haven't provided proof. Personally I don't think any of these detainees should be released anywhere or anytime. Yet I at least respect other peoples comments.
viknat - You see, I actually read that article that you linked. From that article:
So no, he wasn't granted freedom by the US gov't by any means. What went wrong is that the Gaddafi regime fell, which was unforseeable in 2007.
The trouble with posting links like that is that sometimes people read beyond the headlines.
Lord Pyrine. You are correct, I should have sad "many"
Actually you should have said "a small handful", and then qualified that statement to note how the DoD rather loosely defined "returned to perpetrating terrorism against the US"........it included such things as publicly speaking about their internment and torture, making documentaries about their detention, etc.
Only a very small percentage returned to the battlefield in any meaningful sense. The recidivism rate was lower than the rate for federal prisons.
More importantly, many of the people we imprisoned and tortured were factually innocent. If I had been unjustly abducted, imprisoned and tortured, I'd want revenge too. We create the monsters which haunt us and have no one to blame but ourselves, especially when we resort to torture and mistreatment of the innocent.
When will the almost 3000 souls lost that day have their day in court ? They cannot speak because they are DEAD !! Those of you who's heart bleeds for these vermin should be ashamed. Zero sympathy for them and their so called "plight" . As for the rodents(lawyers) who defend them.....There is not a deep enough part of the ocean for you ....
Too bad the GOP has blocked any attempt at public trials in federal court, where the relatives of the 9/11 victims would find some measure of justice.
I agree with culheath,, Dave, we cannot do that because our children and ancestors fight and die to preserve this as a free and just country. Only dictators pull people out of their homes and torture them and then lock them away indefinitely in internment camps after having no trial. Oh wait that is what we did, now I'm confused.
It's enough to make anyone sick reading about how considerate we seem to be of their so called rights, for me they forfeited those rights when they planned to attack and kill all those innocent people!!!
Fortunately Doug, there are no "so called" rights, there are only "rights", and they can't be forfeited no matter what you do!
We need to readjust our thinking, this guys should have no trial, no lawyers, no bean hole just 16 virgins! How can they use our rights for there gain, bastards, and the ones who let them mock our system is f'ed up how dare you lawyers try to free them. Oh wait I'm a christian they're forgiven!
So in other words we should stoop to their level. Let's show how different we are from them by adopting their ways. We as Americans are better than that.
Yeah that will show em,Stop all military deployments bring all our Men home!!
This just in Chrisporter says we can kill em with kindness and understanding and turning the other cheek,The Bible is not talking about Terrorist,he was speaking of your friend,co-worker,family,that if they hurt you,like saying mean things or stealing from you not blowing you up.
Sorry for being Snarky,It's just we are NOT torturing these people,we never have,simulated Waterboarding is a tool to get info,so how would we get the info from them??Asking nice will not work,and they have been able to prevent further attacks by using the info they have gotten.
crisporter.. I'm thinking about this... Shall I be a good guy...or a dead guy. Tough decision. My kids deserve to have a life. I will e a bad guy and cheat!
The unnamed one should hide.
Just to pose a question to everyone who feel Simulated Waterboarding is UN ethical,Lets say a Child was taken,Kidnapped this could be your kid or someone else's child,would you be okey to use this method if nothing else would reveal the whereabouts of that child? And what if that child would die in exactly a specific time or even a Unknown time and the Criminals were not talking...would you be ok with this method? I would for my own Kid...But you better bet you butt I would for yours also.
America lost all of is credibility in the world, when it resorted to running these gulags, and torturing prisoners. The very same things the west has chided other countries about for years. Now the US just looks like a huge hypocrite, which is even worse.
The only possible way that the US can redeem itself, would be to declare what it did wrong. Make laws that would prevent such a thing happening again. Like a constitutional amendment against torture of any kind, and mandatory due process for all prisoners. And haul the people responsible for it happening into court, on human rights abuse charges. Even if that mean prosecuting Bush and Cheney themselves.
Otherwise the west can kiss goodbye ever holding the moral high ground ever again.
Oh no, you named them.
These people allegedly conspired to murder three thousand innocent civilians, and the alleged torture didn't happen until after the murders had taken place. So why is the alleged torture relevant in the murder case at all? What should happen is, the accused should receive their trials and, if found guilty, they should pay the penalty without delay. Then they can file lawsuits for damages against the US government for the alleged torture...if they are still surviving...
On the other hand, evidence obtained by torture should not be allowed in trial unless it is corroborated by other evidence that was not obtained by torture.
If the evidence found that corroborates the evidence found from torture was obtained by following the original evidence found through torture, it's called fruit of the poisonous tree. It is not allowed because we want to discourage torturing someone for a lead and then following it to determine if they're guilty. If they are not guilty, you've still tortured them and severely violated their citizen rights if a citizen and human rights if not.
Also, the reason why many penalties (death penalty in particular) doesn't happen immediately after is because the legal system recognizes that it is not perfect and makes mistakes. Hence you give the accused time for a proper defense and time for an appeal if found guilty. Those rights do not distinguish between crimes because each trial has the possibility of getting an incorrect verdict.
Folks: Bottom line.
What are American values? I don't like lawyers (generally speaking) and definitely detest terrorist, but I dislike, and distrust, the "American" who says waterboarding is acceptable, secret prisons are acceptable, and 12 years to go trial is acceptable. America has values - some of them I don't like, but without values we're just as ignorant as WOODYSR.
Those nice islamic terrorists don't torture like us evil Americans, they just cut throats, behead, or other such genteel war policies. So you folks play nice.
frustratedu2; I'll compare my knowledge against yours. Remember,, because one has an opinion does not make it fact, it only makes one an opinionated ass!
When radical terrorist kill innocent men, women and children the only rights the terrorist have is to die
Do you REALLY know who allowed 9/11 to happen ?
If it's a death sentence they deserve then give it to them but this dicking around torturing and drawn out trials is what I think has most people up in arms.
These people are prisoners of war, not US citizens who are incarcerated for breaking the law. Therefore they should not even get a trial. They are POWs until the war is over.
Imprisonment and torture is a terrible thing if done to an innocent person. Done to a guilty person it is still terrible but acceptable in my opinion. Therein lies the biggest problem as I see it: who decides whether someone is guilty or innocent? What would you do to Hitler if you captured him alive and you knew the death camps were still operational and only he knew the locations? I'd torture him until I got the information. To me that's an easy decision. What would you do if you knew one of your family members was in a death camp? Where would YOU draw the line?
What about Bradley Manning ?
He is getting exactly what he deserves!
Your questions are emotionally loaded. You can't run a justice system based on emotional responses because emotions are not rational....that's why we don't allow for vigilante justice.
People use emotional reactions when they relate to the people at Gitmo and are willing to throw all procedure out the window in order to satisfy their desire for vengeance. We can immediately see why it is a wrong way to proceed when we consider that there are at this moment 60+ men incarcerated at Gitmo who have been deemed to be not guilty of any action against the US and had no part in terrorist activities.
Yet they sit there because a combination of politics and emotions conspire to make their release unlikely. Is that fair? Is that just? Is that something you want the US to represent to the world? Is that something you want your children to aspire to as US citizens...keeping innocent men locked up for the rest of their lives because people irrationally fear them?
Funny world isn't it? People want to make up laws for every situation they encounter. Tell the "truth"? Oops, maybe I shouldn't sign papers and swear oaths to people I may not believe in. Bradley, as a military person, is subject to the USMJ. Don't you wish you were God and could judge everyone and no one could challenge you? Many humans operate on fear and power. We attacked Iraq out of fear. We intimidate others because of our power and our fear. We have weapons and armies out of fear. Perhaps someday the voices of reason and compassion will be heard by all. Unfortunately that day is not yet here. And so, many innocent people will continue to suffer.
You talk about emotional reactions? That's exactly what your questions are loaded with. Excuse the cliche but life isn't fair or just. It would be nice if it was but that's not the way it is, as you know. Seriously, what would you do? I don't think you know. No one does until they are actually in the situation and they have to choose. Bradley made a choice. Good for him. Unfortunately, people don't often get what they deserve. Criminals go free and innocents get put away with the same system. It's not fair or just.
Jon S
Thanks for the input.
I don't agree with that. What I see is that it is up to us to make life fair and just. The sun doesn't care one way or another whether you get a nice tan or die slowly of heat exhaustion in the desert. The sun and environment in general is incapable of expressing a care. That's our job as it's sentient witnesses.
As far as I'm concerned the meaning of life, in human terms, is simply to give life meaning. Is that an emotional consideration? I'm sure it is. But it's aimed constructively rather than destructively. Hate and vengeance are toxins that poison the person holding them as much as anyone they are directed at.
Fairness and justice are really just extensions of the most basic of all social contracts; "I won't eat you if you don't eat me." Once we sign onto that, we can get into the details of how we will treat each others children and other possessions. From there we complexify until we reach contracts like the US constitution and ideas of rights.
I can't quite tell if the golden rule came before or after the eating thing.
So how do we attain this Nirvana,this Utopia?I feel so light and free.It sounds great but how do you teach the rest of the world to sing in perfect Harmony? Buy them a Coke and give them everything they want?
You give up your right to life as soon as your born in this country. Ask any prolifer.
So, why TF don't you just get your ass out and move to a country that treats you better if that's how you feel?
Why don't you? It's his country as much as yours.
These filthy Muslim scumbags are responsible for killing thousands of innocent US civilians. Why they're still alive to begin with is the real question.
I wonder what the Iraqi parents of their innocent killed during the US invasion kids say about the Americans? I wonder if they sound like jpoochoo?
culheath,
Probably, but who gives a f**k?
Why don't you go over there and ask them?
Aesop;
One winter a Farmer found a Snake stiff and frozen with cold. He had compassion on it, and taking it up, placed it in his bosom. The Snake was quickly revived by the warmth, and resuming its natural instincts, bit its benefactor, inflicting on him a mortal wound. "Oh," cried the Farmer with his last breath, "I am rightly served for pitying a scoundrel." The greatest kindness will not bind the ungrateful. (Some of you folks may find a parallel in this fable)
When dealing with an islamic terrorist, captured in war, be careful how you extend trust to him! He is NOT an innocent bystander, he is a threat always. Although I am a gun owner, the last snake I caught was a Texas Rat-snake and even though he bit me, I released him in a large wooded area the next morning. I suspect the "torture" inflicted on Guantanamo detainees was more attuned to gathering intelligence as opposed to forcing self incrimination. When released many went right back to old habits. It has been that way since Suleiman vs Richard I. Religion, the gift that keeps on giving.
Oh me, Brain-fart! I meant Saladin, not Suleiman, Richard I and he went at it for a while. (At 75, I make mistakes)
I detest terrorists but torture is simply not acceptable. Our POW's were tortured and we were outraged. What makes it different when we commit the act? Stop and think; what did we really learn from these people? Was it really any more valuable/reliable than what our POW's "confessed" in Hanoi?
Our military lawyers are less eager for torture and legal shenanigans to justify it than their civilian counterparts. Could it be because unlike the armchair coward who proclaim the necessity of torture, those who have faced real wars and real brutality know that it is useless, produces lies and backfires by normalizing brutality.
Perhaps all you armchair warriors should understand that the whole basis of American law is that you don't decide who gets what treatment before they are convicted. You treat KSM they same way you want a US Marine treated if they are capture in Iran. Not because they are equal in deed or honor which they are not, but because they are equal in rights and humanity. Inalienable rights, irrevocable humanity.
Torture debases us and endangers us all. It has already corrupted our government and judicial system, as evidenced by these 10 year incarcerations which are largely un-prosecutable because of torture. It corrupts our laws, it corrupts our culture and it debases our humanity.
Why is it necessary to explain this to conservatives? When did they become such cowards that they were willing to give up 200 years of brave defense of the american judicial system of equality and due process under law, rights won with blood?
Andreas,
I assume you have as much passion and conviction for our 2nd Amendment as you seem to for these Terrorists?I have Marines in my Family,and they fight for All Americas Rights, Not the Enemy's Who would slaughter them without blinking an eye,maybe even involve a little kid to initiate him into terroristhood,then send the Tape home for Mommy and Daddy to see What real Torture looks like.
America is torturing these guys like Obama's not a US citizen,not happening...
HA!
What CIA prisons are these? The secret kind? We'll "preserve" them...secretly.
The stupid thing is that no Lawmaker knows the location.
I;ll tell you what...........................let the lawyers go to Gitmo and collect the evidence. It should quite a few years, don't you think?
look how many people died 9/11. he needs to die also.
What is done with those accused of criminal acts is not the issue. The issue is are we big enough to live by the principles we have been proud of or are we a bunch of cowrdly punks too scared to give these guys an American style trial the same as we do other serial killers.
It's about American pride. Having adopted the high ground cost us lives more than once. We need to see what is important besides having the revenge rage. Did those that have died protecting the American way as something important die for nothing?
I want all of us to have the oportunity to see American values in action and let the world see we are something special. All the flag waving we do doesn't mean sh!t unless we walk the walk.