E-mail updates
Follow on Twitter
Subscribe to RSSOne decade ago, the US Supreme Court ruled the Scouts had the legal right to exclude gays, but the organization's new policy would allow local troops would be able to decide the issue for themselves. NBC's Pete Williams reports.
Jennifer Tyrrell cried when she got the news Monday that the Boy Scouts of America may be changing its policy to admit gays and lesbians as Scouts and leaders.
The mother of four children was kicked out of the private organization last year, as den leader of her son’s Tiger Cub pack in Ohio, because she is a lesbian. The longstanding policy has sometimes seen the quiet, or in Tyrrell’s case, public, exit of gays – an exodus that has rocked the Boy Scouts and led to growing calls for the group to open its doors to all who want to join.
“I’m looking forward to the day when we can once again take part,” Tyrrell told NBC News by phone, reminiscing about all of the fun activities she so enjoyed with her son Cruz and the youth in her pack, such as the Pinewood Derby and campfires. “This is a gigantic leap, especially on this … decades-old policy that they have gone to the Supreme Court to defend. … Of course it’s not the ultimate, but it’s definitely a great hurdle.”
It’s not the ultimate, according to Tyrrell and others, because the proposal would eliminate the ban at the national level, but would allow local sponsoring organizations to decide whether or not they would accept gays, NBC News’ Pete Williams reported.
Courtesy Jennifer Tyrrell
Jennifer Tyrrell and her son Cruz. Tyrrell was ousted from her post as den leader of her son's Tiger Cub pack in April 2012 because she is gay.
“So essentially, instead of forcing people to discriminate they’re going to allow people to discriminate,” said Zach Wahls, who is the son of a lesbian couple and who has been leading a campaign fighting to include lesbians and gays in the Scouts. “Even though one is less bad than the other, we still need to make sure that local units are understanding how a ban on gay members negatively affects their unit.”
Still, Wahls said, it was a step in the right direction though the Boy Scouts do have a ways to go.
“Compared to where we were seven months ago, with the BSA, you know, calling this the best policy for the organization right now and then seven months later understanding well actually … that’s not quite true, it’s a big development,” he added.
Wahls was referring to the Boy Scouts announcement last July that it was sticking with the policy after revealing it had undertaken a confidential two-year review of the disputed membership guidelines. It also came a few months after Tyrrell was forced out and a day before she handed in a petition to national leaders with hundreds of thousands of signatures calling for her reinstatement.
That prompted a number of Eagle Scouts to turn in their hard-earned regalia, with more than 200 posting their letters and photos of their medals, pins or certificates to a tumblr page started by Burke Stansbury, a 36-year-old communications specialist in Seattle, Wash., who decided to leave the Scouts for good over the issue.
Stansbury welcomed the news of the proposed change but said he wasn’t sure if he would ever go back.
One decade ago, the US Supreme Court ruled the Boy Scouts of America had the legal right to exclude gays, but the organization's new policy would allow local troops would be able to decide the issue for themselves. NBC's Pete Williams reports.
“I sort of said all along that I was really making a decision to do this, that they’ve held on too long and that, you know, I’ve lost faith in the organization regardless of what changes they might make in the future,” he said.
Stansbury said he would wait and see if the Boy Scouts ended up reversing the policy and if they “actively worked to be an open and inclusive organization.”
The discussion of the potential change in policy is nearing its final stages, according to outside scouting supporters. If approved, the change could be announced as early as next week, after the BSA's national board holds a regularly scheduled meeting.
“Before I made any decision about rejoining or asking for my medal back, I’d really want to see that it was being implemented but yeah … I am certainly open to seeing what happens and I mean, there is you know, much to love about the Boy Scouts as an organization,” he said. “So if they were to change, it would take some time, I think, to rebuild the trust of people like me who lost faith. But I think it’s still possible.”
One of those most impacted recently by the Boy Scouts’ policy was Ryan Andresen, 18, and his family. Andresen said he was denied submitting his application for the Eagle rank to the national organization by his Scoutmaster after finishing his final service project last fall because he is gay, and after coming out as gay to his troop last summer.
After much back and forth with the local council in Moraga, Calif., and hard feelings on both sides in a story that made national headlines for weeks, his application for the pinnacle Boy Scouts’ achievement was forwarded to the national headquarters for approval, said his father Eric Andresen, 52.
John Makely / NBC News
Ryan Andresen holds an Eagle Scout pin that was given to him by a fellow Scout who is gay on Friday, Oct. 12, 2012, in New York, N.Y.
Ryan, a high school senior, was still hoping for the award, even though he already knows he has earned it, Eric Andresen said.
“Four months ago, if the ban hadn’t been in place, we wouldn’t even been going down this road. … He’s been hurt a lot. There’s been a lot of damage done to Ryan emotionally,” he said Monday. “If the board does elect to get rid of the policy, I don’t know why they wouldn’t then retroactively award Ryan his Eagle. They certainly should.”
Eric Andresen, who resigned as the committee chair of his son’s troop after the problems began, said he was done with the organization after 10 years as an adult leader, but he hadn’t yet broached the possibility with his son of being able to participate as a volunteer or leader one day if the policy is changed.
“I don’t think that’s a conversation that … I’d even want to start it with him right now,” he said, noting that after Ryan spent a dozen years with the Boy Scouts, the group “turned its back on him” and was “responsible for all of the grief he’s gone through the last four months.”
One of the Andresen’s main objectives was to help others, such as boys who may still be hiding in the closet.
“If BSA does do the right thing … we’re looking at, you know, what this is going to do for thousands of other Scouts so that nobody else has to go through what Ryan went through,” he said. “It’s time to end this stuff. Gay kids have a right to be Scouts, too.”
Related:
Gay teen denied Eagle Scout: 'Change is happening' over Boy Scouts anti-gay policy
Eagle Scouts return badges to protest policy banning gays
Boy Scouts: We're keeping policy banning gays
If you are a current or former member of the Boy Scouts and would like to share your thoughts on whether the membership policy should be changed, you can email the reporter at miranda.leitsinger@msnbc.com. We may use some comments for a follow-up story, so please specify if your remarks can be used and provide your name, hometown, age and Boy Scout affiliation.
Leave a Comment:
What the BSA did was wrong and everyone knows it. I am sorry that so many good people and their families and friends had to go through that.
But this is great progress and the LGBT family and it's supporters. Everyone should be happy about this giant step forward for America. Wounds will heal and I can't wait for the day when all of this is in the past and gay marriage and gay people are just another normal addition to society.
BSA decided on equal rights for all. Lets hope other organizations in this nation follow suit.
I sincerely hope that this organization wises up and strikes a blow for what is truly right, by accepting ALL people, regardless of religion, color, or sexuality, totally, across the board, with no loop holes.
For those who have been harmed, to me, radical compassion seems to be the only cure. Show the BSA what Christianity is ACTUALLY all about, and forgive. Holding grudges gets us no where. Unless of course, they're against our ex's. Then grudge away. ;)
"What the BSA did was wrong and everyone knows it."
Does anyone know that the Girl Guides banning men from running groups is wrong? Does anyone care that they do it? Anyone? Seriously... Anyone? Or do we save all our outrage for this instance of blatant discrimination, and happily ignore others that don't fit our social sensibilities?
Is that the gay badge. Go ahead and blast me. I don't care.
Sarah- please clarify what you mean by 'radical compassion' and what the BSA should specifically do to demonstrate it. (*Nothing sarcastic here, only seeking to learn ;)
"I sincerely hope that this organization wises up and strikes a blow for what is truly right, by accepting ALL people, regardless of religion, color, or sexuality, totally, across the board, with no loop holes."
I bet the local pedophile club is cheering you on! Or maybe you make that exception.
PRO,
That was directed to the gay people who feel harmed and unable to forgive the BSA for their discrimination. The concept of forgiving and letting go in the face of a grave harm, ala King or Ghandi, is so contrary to humanity's nature, that it's radically compassionate. Looking at the discrimination and hate that homosexuals have faced since, basically the dawn of time, I think the only way to cure the internal wounds would be a similar ability to forgive.
They WILL be granted equal protection, that's a given, it's coming and there's no stopping it, but regardless, that won't automatically cure the wounds and grudges facing such disparate treatment has created. For that, it takes a giant leap of forgiveness and compassion.
David,
Oh please...
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2010/winter/10-myths
http://www.livescience.com/13409-myths-gay-people-debunked-sexual-orientation.html
Actually what they did was right. They are a private organization and have the right to choose how they want it run.
Having the right to do something, and something being the right thing to do are NOT the same thing. No one's said they don't have the right to discriminate, we're saying discriminating isn't the right thing to do.
I have the right to go join the KKK, that doesn't mean it would be the "right" thing to do.
Here we go forcing a lifestlye and a sexual preference on a private organization. Why don`t the homosexuals start their own scout troop? If homosexuals are in my son is out. What about my right to not associate with people whose lifestyle I detest in a private organization of like minded people.
But it`s not normal. And all the inclusion and pressure to make people agree with your lifestyle "choice" will not make it so.
Higher Risk of Mental Health Problems for Homosexuals
Haven't you ever taken a research methods class? Correlation doesn't mean causality. They may have a higher rate of mental illness, but that doesn't mean it's the HOMOSEXUALITY causing it.
One day, the BSA will look back in shame that they did not correct this sooner (if they do at all, that is). Sounds to me like gay scouts in redneck states are SOL. Thanks for that, BSA.
The BSA finally "voluntarily" accept gays. Mission accomplished, the BSA is now coerced to accept gays. The coercion is legal and constitutional! Freedom of association is forced upon the BSA! BSA must like guys! Would you like to have more freedom?
Whats to forgive? the gays were in the wrong organization, the boy scouts was a Christan themed group and well within their rights, the gays are and always will be in religions opinion a abomination so the scouts lost and as far as I am concerned are now non existent, what remains is a sell out they went for the money morals be damned. along with the morals of scouting so goes another rung on the ladder of religious standards and freedom of religion, now the boy scouts will get no backing from me, and no recognition they have sold out to the other side. man kind is a step closer to its final destination (where ever that is). now the gay community wants a apology? for what? they (the gay community) demands that the straight people do not judge them differently even if they are different, yet they judge us how civilized of them , their demands are never ending BS, the definition of the word queer simply means different why do they hate it so much that they dis allow anyone to use a perfectly good word. and what the hell does Gay stand for? now do we still have freedom of speech or did you remove that as well. will I be sent to jail if I am not PC? we were better of with to each their own, and freedom, this is a lesson you will learn the hard way. RIP America you are under attack from all sides, and you are losing every front. sink and get it over with.
thank you Sarah for your honesty. just because I disagree with your lifestyle, does not mean I cant respect you as a person, and I wont force my will on you, I only wish that your community would stop forcing theirs on me., and that is exactly what they are doing. as a Christan I feel like I am being raped repeatedly to the point that I would just give in to it as though its normal.
DBuck,
Um, yeah, I'm not gay. But thank you for respecting gay people, and myself regardless, as people. Where we differ, is that I feel Christians ARE forcing themselves on us, through legislation such as DOMA and DADT. As well as personhood amendments and other anti-choice measures.
By not allowing those pieces of, HIGHLY FLAWED, legislation, we're NOT forcing anything on you, we're simply not allowing you place religion into our government.
However that's separate from this issue, as yes the BSA is a private organization and as such has the right to discriminate. But as I said before, that doesn't make it the right thing to do. To me, Jesus was more concerned about how we treated each other, as opposed to what two consenting adults did in bed.
^ Then may you, D Buck, and others with your view take this as an opportunity to re-learn the Golden Rule. Not much fun to be constantly under attack, huh?
davidpun-3385043, I love it when people put their idiocy on public display. The VAST majority of pedophile are HETEROSEXUAL. I realize that's not what they said on Fake News, but it IS reality.
Sarah-3043284---All your compassion is instrumental in forcing the organization to change it's values. Coercion is not compassion it is first and foremost a form of terrorism. You site research is done by people only looking for one answer so what would you think they would say. The funniest thing of all is the length you will go to protect the so called downtrodden. There really is a whole bunch of anger behind that, maybe you should talk about it to someone. All they want is equality, what a laugh, all they want like you is revenge. It borders on obsession which since you are so edumacated is something to see the Dr. about. I also want to know who told you Christianity is about, but it is about worship and spreading the word. Jesus walked the earth but he certainly did not cure its ills, take away the suffering or cure all the disease. Why are you?
Vince--- I believe you have skewed data but either way how do you know they are hetro when gays claim all straights are really gay but hiding in the closet. That statement is as dumb as saying all the pedophiles are gay. I do not believe that one either. Get a clue man.
I hope the gays don't forgive and stomp off and play in their own playground and they can make the rules they want. Leave our institutions alone. I am not on the forums that much, but Sarah appears to have an obsession with the topic. Someone said she has issues and I agree but it isn't all about this topic.
So when did you choose to be "straight"? Did you have the opportunity to date someone of your sex/gender, but decided that it didn't feel right to you, and so you chose the way you did?
Congratulations to your son. Are you supportive of him? If not, PFLAG is a great resource if you need somewhere to go for answers.
Oh, you meant, you'd remove him from scouting. Well, your attitude is his loss.
I'm 55 can I join the BSA?
Rick-3276256,
Please realize that gays and liberals don't believe in freedom of association. They think sticking their nose [among sticking other things] into your circle of friends and group is some twisted human right they should have. The bottom line is while liberals accuse others for 'pushing their values and morals down the throats of liberals', they are baldfaced in doing the very same thing to you and me.
Welcome to the Left's Brave New World!
Total nonsense of course. This is like saying that women fighting for the right to vote didn't "believe in freedom of association" or that blacks fighting to integrate schools didn't "believe in the freedom of association."
Yep. Justice and equality for all, what a brave world indeed.
Shame on the BSA for not having the balls to stand up to any "squeaky wheel" special interest group. If you don't like the policies of the BSA or for that matter any other organization, then by all means go the phuck away and start your own organization with your own policies. Just stop the phucking whining!!!
If you are a father and allow your young son to go alone on a camping trip with a bunch of perverts, you should be charged with child abuse and the child should be given to a family with some sense of decency so he at least has a chance to grow up "morally straight."
This whole change of events is due to money. The BSA was losing sponsors and their money. The BSA is still trying to have it both ways when they leave it up to the local troup to decide if they want to admit gays or not. It's still perceived as discrimination when it isn't denounced in totality and the BSA has not totally condemned discrimination against gays. It just shifted the responsibility to decide.
Baloney. This is what happens when a 2000 year old social norm changes. This 100 year old organization - built in large part upon church support - is suddenly confronted with change. The organization needs to embrace a solution that maintains stability despite vast differences in philosophy among participants.
And let's not forget the issue of child abuse. BSA is making this change amid the specter of abuse claims. Whether they happened 20 years ago or yesterday, someone somewhere is going to find fault with the changes we expect today and the sins of the past.
When the churches of America who support scout troops recognize the fallacy that it is OK to treat someone who is gay differently than every other person, that'll be the day you can find some solace. Until then, just like when segregation became obsolete - you'll just have to live with the gradual shift. Just be happy that change is actually coming.
Look who just caught on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The BSA is a free choice to participate in their programs and activities, just like sexual orientation is a choice. If a person choses to be GAY then they also choose not to participate in the BSA. And I know for a fact that the BSA will go bankrupt in just a few years if they choose this direction, because my church will cease to participate. Any Christian worth their salt knows that GAY relations is against the law of chastity, MAN and WOMAN should be chaste until marriage, and then join in holy matrimony to procreate and have their union blessed by God with healthy offspring. I waited to have sex until I was married, and I am truly blessed and have so much love and joy for my legacy, and amazing partner.
Many of the so called "Christians" DO have pre-marital sex and DO have sex with others after having married as well as divorcing and remarrying after having taken vows to be with their first partner "til death parts them" so what a crowd of HYPOCRITES using that bable to justify being cruel to little boys who don't "fit the bill" and "act straight." I've read posts about beating up anybody who "appeared queer" and you call those "Christian values???" Keep your Christian values and let the rest of America's little boys enjoy the great aspects of learning the positive values of the BSA without the BS of phony christian dogma. Men and women are NOT chaste until marriage and also - most Americans wear mixed fibers and many eat shellfish which are "sins" listed in the same section of your fantasy book. Keep your religion out of our public lives and we will all do a HELLUVA lot better!! That's what causes the problems - you people pontificating and beating your chests with your phony self-righteousness. Most Americans know right from wrong and we don't need a bable or koran to tell us. We will respect your religious beliefs if you can keep them OUT of our faces - I am SICK of hearing from christians babbling about their values - what about everyone else's values????!!!! Don't WE have any rights? We have the right of FREEDOM FROM RELIGION and the more you people keep beating your drums the faster everyone else will get tired of your noise.
ALL Americans who wish to participate should be able to since BSA does stand for "Boy Scouts of America" NOT "Boy Scout Christians of America." Stop trying to make out that America is a theocracy or a christian nation - it is secular and our forefathers debated and wisely decided AGAINST any one religion as this was the PROBLEM that caused many of them to leave their native lands - persecution. And, anyone should not be persecuted merely because he/she is gay... it's a human condition like brown eyes or smooth skin... it's genetic. WHY would anybody CHOOSE to be persecuted?? You people are astoundingly stupid if you believe that. And, if you're christian - remember, god made us in his own image so he made gay people in his image, too. What's your response to that? DUH!
Its all going to collapse society is turning in on itself, nothing is the norm everything is acceptable and nothing is right, it will not last long we are going through the death throws, this civilization will die and a new one will begin from scratch, from just a few remaining seeds, a new crop after the harvest. what crop ? there is a new one every cycle, this cycle is near completion, follow the Ice ages, the big winter, followed by the long spring, then the summer growing season followed by fall harvest that's about now. look at the bigger picture. its similar to the seasons, its run by some higher authority. its on the order of galactic seasons versus our seasons in the solar system that takes about a year the galactic season takes about 65,000 years, what you need to concern yourself with is where do you fit into this picture? good seed or defective seed, good seed is worth saving defective seed is of no use. now boyscouts use to raise good seed, they are now going out of business. but for a price untill supplies run out they will gladly sell you what ever they can scrape up, no guarantees.
Rob, where have you been the last 30 years? Gay people no more choose to be gay than straight people choose to be straight.
By the way, you seem to believe that all churches will drop their support if gays are allowed in Scouting. By your definition, I guess we are lucky to have Scouting at all. If everyone who had premarital sexual relations are out ("against the law of chastity") and everyone who had extramarital sexual relations are out (again, "against the law of chastity" and, in many cases, a violation of the 10 Commandments) we would lose up to 50% of our Scouts 16 to 18 years old and, probably 90% of our adult leaders.
@RobGC, People no more choose to be gay than they choose to be left handed or have green eyes. You are either born gay or you aren't. It isn't a choice and it cannot be cured because being gay is innate to your being.
I seem to remember Jesus teaching his followers not to judge lest they be judged. There was also something about what you do to the least of my brothers you do unto me.
Harry 3603195
Christians are Christians because they choose to follow God's word. You obviously know some scripture but do not choose to believe it. You act like you think the Christians made God's laws. No..........We just choose to follow them. True Christians do not tear out the pages of the Bible they do not like. We do not use God's Word to persecute anyone. You choose to NOT see that. Sarah is the same. That is on your head. You talk about judging. How do you decide who will be your friends. Do you choose everyone to be your close friends and invite them into your home? I doubt it. That is called making a judgement. We all make judgments or the homeless wouldn't be homeless.
My judgement is to stay away from the homos. I do not want them in my house. If you do, that is OK by me. You sound like a person who knows where he is going.
Apparently we do not have free choice anymore, when our president took a side and said the Boy Scouts were wrong to not allow Gays we lost that because our president at that point should have defended personal freedoms but in fact went against them and that was very un American, Mr Obama should have stayed out or defended rights for the boy scouts to run their own organization instead Obama took the side of the Gays and shot down the religious stand of the scouts, talk about a stab in the back of Christianity, a Christan can not by his own judgement condemn any one yours is not to judge but in the same sense he is to avoid what God says is wrong, God in the old testament says its a abomination, the new testament does not deliberate on the subject, its impossible to say what the view is on the subject since we don't posses the answer whether the message was lost or whatever, but we do know to shun or avoid what does not seam right our president is constantly stepping out of bounds and siding on matters that he should avoid as a leader, he is teaching his own form of religion where he should not be involved at all. religion has always been centerpiece to our election process because we never wanted a president to religiously sway the people till Obama and his anti system came along. its almost as though he might be a anti something or other. everyone worried about Romney being a Mormon but Romney said he would not allow his church to call the shots, Kennedy said the same about being a catholic, Obama can not make that claim he is very anti Christan and he does call the shots as he believes. they even discriminated against the minister to swear him in because of the gay issue, they rejected the one and found one that was willing to throw his religion out the window and believe in his own interpretation, and all this for two percent of the population, the two that apparentlycontrols the other 98 because now we have to bow to the 2% something is wrong. why is Obama allowed to throw his anti religion into state matters when we have a separation of religion and state??? Obama needs to keep his views to himself and not reflect them, and Obama should stay out of the boy scoutsagenda where he does not belong. this country is sinking to damn fast. everything will get lost in the confusion that Obama is causing. way to much way to fast, way out of perspective. every day its something new and every day its a wrong answer. is Obama going to be Americas Caligula? no that was Clinton Obama is Nero. America is stupid people supporting stupid causes, well its not just America the whole damn world is falling apart, mankind has lost its ability to reason and its will to take a firm stand, I am ashamed of the boy scouts, and till they stand up I will never respect them. and to all of you that are saying good for the boy scouts for bending over for the gays F you too. these are children they should have been exempt from the Gay agenda. there is no decency left in our society.
I am under the impression that our definiton of RELIGION has different meanings, and I am not going to venture the implied meaning it holds for most that choose not to identify themselves with religion. But RELIGION for myself carries the definition of Knowledge, Wisdom, and Intelligence. For it has proven itself for many a milleniam to be a true and proper way of life. We can all see in the quandaries that plague our society from not gaining wisdom and knowledge for ourselves and our children.
Such examples are: unwed teenage mothers and fathers that disfuncionalize their offspring, whom then are dependant on free handouts from others to help them survive. Thus, the for mentioned disfunctionality can lead to numerous problems that can cause dilemmas in our society, and eventual imprisionment or worse, and in these last days we have all been witness to horrific events.
We has a society progressed from learning and knowledge afforded us by the thoughtful foresight of our predesessors to share with their posterity. To me that is religion, the knowledge, wisdom, and intelligence afforded us by our ancestors. Of course, some of that knowledge is difficult to understand, but it is truth paid for by our forebearers experiences and learned wisdom from their personal tribulations.
None of us are perfect, but it is never to late to choose a path that realizes true happiness, knowledge, wisdom, and the edifying use of our abilities as intelligent human beings. The exact purposes of the original founders of the BSA.
@Kanwe
Funny how you say that but reality seems to be different. Christians pick and choose bit and pieces of what to follow and ignore others. True Christians are the one that do not judge others, but love them all as Jesus love everyone equally.
However, look at history events, religions are the first to cry foul, the first to condemn people, the first to say "God will punish you all", the first to against the changing society. If you want, search for those change, see how "It will be the end times" every single time.
epistemologist,
Gee, you are so pious and spiritual. Problem is that your dead wrong. Nowhere in the Bible can you or any other liberal find any scripture or verse that reveals that God created gay people and affirms homosexual behavior. On the contrary, nearly all if not all scriptures speak of homosexual behavior as being condemned. Simply, the God of the Bible does not agree with your thinking.
Also, the Bible does not tell Christians not to judge. What it says is not to judge hypocritically or with any other judgement that is not of God because God will hold to account people who judge outside of his judgement, what He calls wicked or righteous. Proof: In 1 Corinthians 5:3 the Apostle Paul writes "Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present."
Someone in the Church at Corinth was committing a wicked sexual sin by having sex with his father's wife and Paul was telling the Church in a letter that he was calling out the perpetrator and the church for not dealing with the man.
By speaking the truth today before you and others here, I'm giving the judgement of God to you people concerning homosexual behavior. If you don't like it then your problem is with God and His Son Jesus Christ, not me.
They should think twice about this change if m oney is a factor. The LDS Church is one of their biggest supporters. They would start their own program before embracing Gay rights.
Kanwe, you don't ignore parts of the Bible you don't like?
So I presume you spend each sunday after church at your local hospitals, fire stations and police stations putting to death all those workers who are so blatantly defying Exodus 35:2? Of course on the way you must stop by all the mosques and temples to put to death everyone who is not christian as required by Deuteronomy 17:2-7.
I'm quite certain that all those blasphemous petting zoo operators will be receiving a visit from you to be stoned for allowing different types of animals to graze together, and anyone with a home veggie patch must similarly be put to death all of which is required by Leviticus 19:19.
In amongst all of that I hope you are waiting outside all your local hairdressing salons and barbershops in order to appropriately punish all of those daring to have a haircut as expressly forbidden by Leviticus 19:27, it goes without saying of course that you surely would never have shaved or had a haircut either.
I presume you are actively lobbying your representatives to enact a law requiring rapists to marry their victim if they are not already engaged as required by Deuteronomy 22:28-29.
If you don't follow all these rules yourself and enforce punishment, largely involving death by stoning, on others who breach these rules then please tell me again why you claim you follow the whole bible and don't pick the parts you wish to follow?
I just want to say that homosexual behavior is odd, queer.
None of us would want our children to grow up and have that handicap, that burden to carry.
Human evolution gave males a penis, and women a vagina, for the purpose of putting the penis in the vagina. The penis is perfectly adapted to penetrate a vagina, and similarly, a vagina is perfectly suited to accommodate a penis.
I now pronounce you man and wife.
So, homosexual behavior kind of goes against centuries of evolution.
Fortunately, not that many humans are afflicted with same sex attraction.
Bottom line: there will always, in the eyes of many, be a stigma attached to same sex attraction. I don't think that will ever go away. So, life will always be a little more difficult for people with same sex attraction. For example, look at the AIDS rates for black males. Wow, same sex attraction and poor judgement result in AIDS. At least a woman demands that you buy her dinner first. Men just smoke some crack and start fudge packing.
@not a russian
And yet there are over 1500 different species in nature that exhibit homosexual behavior.
Do not try to talk about evolution if you don't know anything about it and pretend to be knowledgeable.
Speaking of AIDS, so you are saying there are less AIDS among heterosexual? Talk about not living in this reality.
AussieRob, you find fault with Kanwe as a Christian while you are ignorant of the Bible yourself. The Law of the Old Testament was specifically given to the Jewish believers and not to the Christians of the New Testament. While both Christians and Jews share in the Ten Commandments as a basis for the foundation to the laws and statutes both live by, we are different and our laws/rules of living are different.
As a Christian I don't live by any specific Jewish laws or customs [other then the Ten Commandments] and will not be stoning anyone anytime soon. To hear liberals throw up in the faces of Christians about Old Testament rules and particular OT laws specific to Jews back in the Old Testament is a joke. It was and is God who commanded them particularly to punish law breakers with certain kinds of punishments.
Your finger pointing using the Old Testament as a club against Christians is meaningless to most of us.
David 2:12.
In Matthew 7.1 it says;
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged."
Luke 6:37,
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."
I may be an atheist but I was raised Roman Catholic and I took a theology course as part of my liberal arts requirements.
John 7:24 Judge not to the appearance, but judge a righteous judgement
Epitemologist, I am not judging the person, for I can never know their circumstances or experiences. But I am condemning the act that is contrary to God's law and moral purpose. I have been afforded that freedom, to choose a life contrary to sin and the afflictions, sadness, depression, and pain it brings.
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/us.htm
young black/African American MSM, are most seriously affected by HIV. "
...
"MSM continue to bear the greatest burden of HIV infection, and among
races/ethnicities, African Americans continue to be disproportionately affected."
Hence my comment, " For example, look at the AIDS rates for black males. Wow, same sex attraction and poor judgement result in AIDS."
Well....
Do you have any idea of how many species there are in nature? Proximately 10,000. Have you personally observed homosexual behavior in over 1500 different species in nature? :-)
.....uhhhhhhh do they get a merit badge for fudge packing????????
The national leadership of BSA is intent on destroying the organization from within. This will lead to the mass exodus from within and bring about the downfall of the organization then the LBTG will finally be happy as them as well as other deviants will be considered the "norm".
@not a russian
And yet you didn't even look at the graph for white male still account for the highest number. And this is only about US, heterosexual still account for the most HIV infect world-wide and somehow you also ignore it, nice to pick and choose.
@David-3994413
Ahh yes, the excuse that it doesn't apply to you and yet you and religions people keep quoting from Old Testament everytimes for every incident that benefit you the most. Isn't that pick and choose? Obviously seem to be not the case you guys.
Listen to me Cong, you are very ardent in your support of homosexuals. That's fine. But, do not let that cloud your judgement. Stay open to the opinion of others and do not fall into the trap of only seeing info that supports your point of view.
You need to go back and look at that graph again. White male homosexuals (MSMs) account for the highest number of new AIDS infections, followed by black MSMs, and then followed by Hispanic MSMs.
It's a trifecta for male homosexuals and AIDS infections.
As I said, same (male) sex attraction + poor judgement = AIDS.
So, overall, because so many homosexual men are contracting AIDS, I believe that the overall life expectancy for male homosexuals is less than male heterosexuals. Although, if a male homosexual can avoid AIDS infection, there can be a normal life expectancy.
David-3994413, I'll stop pointing out the hypocrisy of Christians who ignore the parts of the bible they cant be bothered with when Christians stop quoting old testament laws to oppose homosexuality.
I think gays want to be treated as an equal. What makes them equal is for every Hetero to understand them and accept their lifestyle, although, it is apparent they do not accept the heterosexual lifestyle.
@not a russian
Listen to your own advice, you are letting a book or your religions clouding your mind. I don't support them, I simply don't care, they can do whatever they want because it has ZERO IMPACT on me whatsoever.
However, you are only talking about US, only a small portion here of AIDS in the world. You are picking a small portion of AIDS data and make it your main argument. However, the thing is, HETEROSEXUAL still account for the most AIDS world-wide.
And my name IS NOT Cong, it's Cuong. You don't even seem to respect others by typing their name correctly, that in itself speak a lot about your character, a closed mind person who seem to take offensive of what others like to do.
David, if you can't come up with something that Christ HIMSELF purportedly said and rely on the purported words of a man who persecuted Christ's followers prior to a "miraculous conversion" on the road to Damascus (and hated women) to defend your judgement, then your argument falls flat. Judge not lest ye be judged. Let he without sin cast the first stone. Before you attend to the mote in your neighbor's eye, remove the beam from your own. THOSE are words that Christ purportedly said. NOWHERE in the teachings of Christ is there anything to defend the actions and attitudes of people who judge their neighbors, treat others poorly and hold themselves up to be better than everybody else. ALL of the defenses people who claim to be Christians put out there come from either the Old Testament or from Saul of Tsarsis/Paul who came to his conversion THIRTY YEARS AFTER CHRIST DIED and previously persecuted all of the followers of the new branch of JEWISH religion and later allowed gentiles into the fold.
This is about money but I'm not sure it's necessarily because of principals of the donors, it's about the tax deduction. You cannot be a 501c3 charitable organization and discriminate against a protected class of people. Gays are a protected class just like any person of any ethnicity. Discriminate and you can't be a tax exempt charity, which means donations are no longer tax deductible and you have to actually pay taxes on all that property you own. There are slews of corporate donors who won't donate to an organization, no matter how charitable, that has not applied and received the 501c3 determination from the IRS. Losing this status would not have happened overnight, but it would eventually have happened to BSA had they not changed this policy, and I think they realized that. Sponsors would then not donate because for that sponsor there'd be no more tax deduction, and imagine BSA paying property taxes on all those acres and acres of camps all around the country.
I can't really find a reason as to why gays shouldn't be allowed to participate.
It does go against my upbringing and I'm not thrilled to see them in the military either. Again, it's a lifestyle I'm tired of having shoved in my face.
When it comes to gays, heterosexuals have no rights these days. We're forced to comply for the sake of fairness and equality but if I tell them the gay facade makes me sick to my stomach I'm told "that's just to bad, sweetie!"
Sure, OK, let them in the scouts. Just make damn sure the punishment is tenfold should they cross the barriers of moral decency. As if they haven't already. (I'm referring to past molestations)
^this. "not a russian" is nitpicking a tiny sliver of the overall data and using it to support his assertion, which is totally incorrect.
if you're tired of having the "gay lifestyle" shoved in your face, then start accepting them as human beings and provide them all the rights that you or I, as hetersexuals, get. When people stop discriminating against them, I'm sure they'll be content to live their lives quietly like the rest of us. Until then, expect holy hell.
It's not hard to comprehend...
There should be some things in life that are absolutes....
If gays want to form a Rainbow league, more power to them. Why does everything have to include everyone?
????!!!??! Me, religious? It is to laugh. I am not a church going man. Why would you even say such a thing? Where did that even come from?
As I said, you are dreaming up stuff to support your fantasies.
Uh, you need to go back and read some of the things that you said.
Yes, I am talking about the US, where homosexual men are being infected with AIDS.
You are King Kong. Do you respect me?
"There should be some things in life that are absolutes...."
Ah, but which ones? We all seem to differ in that. So should we just kill each other, or find some way to get along even if we don't really like it?
@not a russian
For someone who can't even use his real name and have no self-respect for others, you already lost from the start.
If not for religions, what other reason why you are so mindful of gay?
And yes, I am not supporting Gay, I am simply Pro-choices, meaning they can do whatever they want and as soon as they get everything that heterosexual gets, they can quite down. That also means that whatever they do, it has ZERO IMPACT on me.
We are in the US, it's all about FREEDOM. However, if you want to stay in the closet with your views, please do so alone and keep others out of your opinions. Last I checked, you are not the center of the universe.
Well, just try and open up a newspaper and not read about same sex this, or same sex that. I am mindful of same sex attraction because homosexuals are very good at attracting attention to themselves, about getting publicity. And, because people like you support them.
Kind of like Kim Kardashian. I never wanted to know anything about Kim Kardashian. And now I know quite a bit. Kim Kardashian and homosexuals are very good about drawing attention to themselves.
I really did not intend to get into a flame war with you. So, let me just say again the simple facts, as I see them.
:-)
It is not a good thing to be a homosexual. Same sex attraction is an oddity of nature. A penis was designed to become erect and penetrate a vagina. If you are a man and you are turned off by the thought of an erect penis in a vagina, then something is the matter with you. If you are a woman and you say, 'a penis will never go into this girl's vagina, I only like other vaginas', then you are going against millions of years of human evolution. You are here because your mommy and your daddy had sex. Wassamatta with you? Too good to have sexual intercourse?
There are few enough homosexuals. What is it, 5%? Because people with same sex attraction are such a small minority, it will be much more difficult for someone with same sex attraction to find a mate. That will make you unhappy. You have a much better chance of finding a mate when the selection pool is large.
In the US, male homosexuals are at risk of contracting AIDS. Most infections in the US occur from man-to-man sex. Yes, I know that in other countries needle sharing or sex with an infected prostitute are factors, but in the US, it's male homosexual sex.
I hope that my children do not have same sex attraction.
Diversity is a good thing. A marriage should not be same sex :-)
I now pronounce you man and wife.
There will always, in the eyes of many, a stigma attached to same sex attraction. I don't think that will ever go away. So, life will always be a little more difficult for people with same sex attraction.
Now CuongDNguyen, there is nothing personal in that about you, or anyone else. It's just the way I see it.
"Daddy1 and Daddy2...looky! I won the cute ashe competition at camp! and I got a trophy! Funny shape for a trophy, but I got a trophy! I wanna be just like Scoutmaster Chester....he can take the whole trophy and not cry!"
As an Eagle scout with children who are now starting their scout career, bravo! The next step is to remove the silent attack on the atheists who wish to be a part of the Boy Scouts and are likewise facing discrimination. We have still got a long way to go.
Wolfntiff,
Atheist in the BSA ? You were never any eagle scout and are so full of it. That's the problem with the world of fagdom and another mental illness they have. The queer nation suffers from being delusional.
The queers of the world think by continuing to push their perverted sexual conduct it will finally be accepted as "normal". The fact is the queer nation will never be considered normal.
You didn't read the proposed changes:
Essentially, local Scouting organizations would be able to choose to admit atheist Scouts and leaders, too.
About time.
How right you are coach they are delusional, and it is and always will be a act of perversion, and its so disgusting it should be hid, they will never be normal simply because they are not. but they do know how to fantasize about it. Eagle scout My asz, Children? cant poop babies Wolfie.
What you Wolfntiff and Kynetick are really saying is that you want to have the Boy Scouts and their organization on your own terms. This is kinda like a Blue Jay forcing a group of Robins to admit it just because the Blue jay wants into the Robin group and will do only some of the things Robins do except the things Blue jays don't like. Right?
Atheists want the fun scout stuff but don't give us that God stuff..OK!!!
What is the use of having distinct private groups doing their own fun stuff if there is always someone outside the group agitating to force his or her way into a particular group to force them to compromise their values and ideas to the intruder.
Hey so-called free thinking atheists, where the freedom in that!
I will always disagree with the gay lifestyle and will always scrutinize their worth in this society. That being said I do that with everyone. Gays are provided with no exception, they're just more sensitive to this reality.
Coach and D Buck,
Guess in your opinion we shouldn't allow any mentally retarded or disabled kids into BSA either cause, you know, they're not "normal".
David,
I personally think BSA's policy against allowing gays is terrible. But I also think it's fine to allow a distinct group to do "their own fun stuff" and let in who they want, but then they're no longer a tax exempt charity. No more tax deductible donations, and they get to pay their property taxes on all those camps and properties across the country. So if BSA wants to discriminate against gays, fine, but then pay up because that's what any other organization that discriminates would have to do. No free passes.
My son will not be joining scouting because we're not Christian, Jewish or Muslim. I am raising my child with a broad religious educational upbringing and will allow him to make up his own mind what he believes. But because part of that education includes the Wiccan, Druidic, Buddhist, Shamanistic, and Taoist philosophies and because I am a Druid/Shaman we would not be welcome in scouting. I find this sad because my mother was a Den Mother and scout leader for both my brother and I and there is a lot of good in participating in scouting. But with the bigoted nature of the Boy Scout organization, I can not allow my child to be a part of it.
This is absolutely hogwash. If you don't want to follow the requirements to be in a club, which the BSA is, then you have no right to bitch about that club's rules. In other words, for the slow readers here, if you don't like to wear yellow hats then WHY THE EFF would you try to join a yellow-hat wearing club? No reason seems likely other than to rub the yellow-hat wearing clubs face into your civilian rights to not wear a yellow hat in otherwise public instances.
What the LGBT community calls equal rights is actually an attack on anyone who doesn't condone their lifestyle. Cry as much as they want and litigate as much as they do they cant force acceptance.
Well it is Boy Scouts of America, right? So a boy, who is an American, and who wants to be a scout should be able to participate, right? You are talking about BSWPAB, Boy Scouts who's Parents are Bigots.
Sorry Cory1980 if the name BSA is confusing to you. Your drivers license from whatever state, lets say California as an example, doesn't say in its name that it is the CaliforniaDriversLicenseForNotDrivingDrunk now does it? That little technicality is a rule, one might say a bylaw of having the luxury of being in the club who can legally drive a car in California, wouldn't one?
THE BSA HAS THE SAME RIGHT TO CHOSE THEIR OWN BUYLAWS NOTWITHSTANDING YOUR TYPE WHO TRY TO FORCE YOUR LIFESTYLE ON OTHERS.
Also your type should really figure out one day, albeit I doubt you ever will, that forcing membership cannot force acceptance. You damage your own brand by your vigilanty attacks.
So a guy was a member of the organization before he was a teenager, and when he grew up he found he's in fact, a gay. And now all his qualifications become null?
And by the way, it's not lifestyle. Not more than being left-handed is a lifestyle.
It's a lifestyle. Get over it. Whether you blame it on genetics, parenting whatever it is your lifestyle.
And yes, if the boy decided his lifestyle was against what the club rules stated then yes he becomes a person much like the drunk driver in my above example, a person non grata. Too difficult to understand?
Calyps
No one is trying to force their lifestyle on anyone else. This club is for children, children who want to be boyscouts, children who cannot control the lifestyle decisions made by his or her parents. So you are saying that if a child has parents of the same gender, they should not be treated the same as a child with a male and a female as parents? I am not the "type" you refer to. I am straight with two children. I am not threatened or fearful of people who are different than me, which is why I can live a more peaceful life overall. Acceptance of all will improve your quality of life as well.
See cory1980 your last post was a lot more thoughtful and conciliatory than the one that I originally replied to where I called out your ignorance over the name of the club. Amazing what a little prompting can get out of folks when they are challenged for using diatribes. But yes people are trying to FORCE ACCEPTANCE. Don't try to BS us. Most, not all, but most, of the readers on this board know the difference.
I have no issues with a private club, as the BSA is, making whatever rule that they want. IT IS AFTER ALL A PRIVATE CLUB (goes back to my yellow hat wearing club example). Your "straightness" comment is between you and your partner, none of my concern. As far my quality of life goes, I prefer not accept drunk drivers in my little club. You may, but I wont.
Calyps, how can sexual orientation possibly be a "lifestyle"? That doesn't even make sense.
Guess what, haters? No one's "forcing" the BSA to finally catch up to late 20th century standards of inclusion. No law has been passed mandating they be inclusive. The Supreme Court even said they have the right to be as stupid as they want. Queer folks haven't forced anything on the BSA. No, the organization is, entirely of its own accord (with encouragement from public pressure, and from sane and rational people within the organization at all levels), finally beginning to wake up and smell the coffee: it's 2013, not 1913. Inclusion is in. The BSA wants to serve as many youth as it can, which means it needs to change its policy, i.e., allow Gay and Bisexual Scouts, and Bisexual, Gay and Lesbian Scout troop leaders and advisers. Hallelujah, and pass the tempest in a teapot, five years from now, people will look back, scratch their head, and wonder what the heck took so long, and why folks were so danged terrified of including queer folks in the organization.
And Thomas, putting your vulgar slanderous comments aside, if that private group decided that on their own then I fully support that decision. The problem you don't seem to grasp is because you are a certain way you have no right to demand people act in a way that you don't like if they are in a private setting. I could give a crud less if you like bottom or top but I wouldn't support you on trying to force your way of life on a private gathering.
With respect, I think you misunderstand, and rather fundamentally, what this is about.
Many, many, many boys grow up, join the Scouts and then, as they are growing up, realize that they are gay.
They belong in the Scouts just as much as their friends do. It's THEIR Scouts just as much as anyone else's. Yet they suddenly find they are no longer welcome-- at least not if they live up to the oath they have taken to tell the truth.
It's really startlingly sad. And cruel. And unfair.
And it doesn't make ANY sense.
Same-sex orientation isn't a political stance, no matter how much those on the Right would like to make it one. It's a trait, and it's a trait that says nothing about one's moral character or composition. It's neither chosen nor relevant.
Let Scouts be Scouts. And that includes those who are gay.
Peace.
Wow Calyps. Interesting that you have such strong feelings about this issue. But we'll that to you and your psychiatrist. BSA is a private organization (or Club as you put it) and as the supreme court made clear in a couple different cases. Private organizations can discriminate against anyone for anything. Race, creed, sexual orientation, the color of your shoes, how angry you get typing in a room by yourself, whatever. And yes, honestly it is unfortunate that many well meaning but yet uninformed people fail to make that distinction. However:
Despite your beliefs, it is not a lifestyle and more than being left handed is. Sure you can force yourself (or be forced) to suppress your uh, gayness just like nice little nun at the catholic school I went to trained me to right handed. But that having a change in who you are forced on you. A lifestyle is the choice to be a intolerant southern white christian or making the choice to keep having babies so the government keeps giving you free money.
Also, I'm pretty damned sure that most boys when they first join the scouting organization, assuming they joined as Cub Scouts have no IDEA if they are gay or straight. Hell, I joined the Cub Scouts in what 2nd grade or something, at that age I had no idea if I was gay or straight. Hell if you woulda sat down and explain what "gay" or "straight" meant, I most likely would have barfed all over your shoes. Six years or so later I would have been interested, but that only because I figured out those girl creatures were pretty interesting...
I respect BSA's right to make whatever bylaws it wants. I left the scouts many years ago and my son after being in scouting for 7 years just made the same choice himself. Interestingly enough he stated he wanted to quit for the same reason I quit. The discrimination the BSA has towards people who are not Christians. I suspect that BSA will on a national level (cop out) end it's ban on the LGBT community, but not the discrimination.
But mostly I find it interesting that you are so angry that you insulted several people that disagreed with you AND a guy who agreed with everything you said. Again, anger issues man. Wow.
So, if they decided they were going to exclude African-Americans, or Latinos, or Jews, that would be okay also?
Morality in Christian principles covers modesty. Here is the definition; sexual reserve: reserve in appearance, manner, and speech, especially in relation to sexual matters. I reiterate sexual preference is not a minority or right. There can be no discrimination against someones choice of sexual partners. It is a lifestyle that has a label due to the acts.
Could the people who oppose the Boy Scouts of America accepting GLBT youth into their troops please tell me what will be the downfall of this decision? What negative actions will result from their decision?
What exactly is the gay lifestyle and what is the gay agenda because I have 3 gay friends and none of them will tell me? I didn't know that Melissa Etheridge was a lesbian until I went to her concert in 1992, so obviously my gaydar is lacking.
I am being sincere because my gay friends don't look or act any different than me.
Well, the "gay lifestyle" is one very similar to your own - except it's FAAAAABULOUSSSSSS!
And the "gay agenda" is that they're going to take over the world - redecorate it, make it watch show tunes, and instill RuPaul as Supreme Queen of Earth.
Pity, your gay friends haven't shared this with you.
/sarcasm
@Thomas paine.
I hate show tunes and Ru Paul is better w/ makeup than I am.
Let me get this right, Boy Scouts? that's children right! hell they shouldn't even be getting their fingers stinky yet let alone have s#tt on their stick, what the hell is wrong with the Gay community, using the boy scouts as a battle ground that is low class well I guess that should be expected, they have been pulling the same thing in elementary school evil is as evil does, ya got to brain wash them at a young age before they know better, lots of young influential boys in the scouts, does this effect the cub scouts as well. people this is a created situation the woman if you can call her that is in a Christan based youth group right, now she is wearing a boy scout uniform herself because she is a den leader and that's OK, but why was she wearing a huge Rainbow Gay sticker on her uniform? this is what the gay community does to promote their agenda they want access to your children for indoctrination they should be ashamed for these acts, pure Evil. its not about scouts its about being gay and being considered normal when you are the farthest thing from it. the big rainbow sticker with the gay slogan on it is not part of the boy scout uniform now is it. this is evil invading a christain based organization to contaminate it. you support her you support evil over our nations youth, this is all very very sick, open your eyes. it was more important to her to be Gay then to work with the children.
@Dbuck'. Are you familiar with paragraphs, capitalization and periods?
@ Calyps
what the hell was "vulgar" or "slanderous" about Thomas' comment. Here, I'll repost it. Please point out the vulgarity or slander...
I can't "upvote" this post enough. Good post Mr. Paine...
How about "don't ask, don't tell?" It worked in the military. Unfortunately, many people feel the need to tell even if no one's asking.
Right. "don't ask don't tell" is progressive -- it is the standard we (informally) apply to one's religion, and other PERSONAL subjects that DON'T BELONG in the workplace, scouts, or other group contexts.
Al Kyda, the problem with 'don't ask, don't tell' is it requires one to hide their true nature, preventing them from being authentic. Heterosexuals are not expected to live secret lives. Regarding 'don't ask, don't tell' in our military, it does not work. They must live a lie, live secretly, as if they were doing something wrong, or risk being kicked out. While this policy may help some to feel 'more comfortable' not acknowledging anothers sexual orientation, imagine how uncomfortable this is for those who must adhere to this policy.
It... didn't work in the military. Did you hear that they changed that policy?
And what does that gay Scout say when asked about which girls he finds cute, or why he isn't dating, or....
Does he lie?
Or just say nothing?
Why would anyone put a Scout through the requirement of having to dissemble just to remain a Scout?
Don't ask, don't tell did work well in the military until the same people that are bringin you females humpin 100 Plus lbs rucks in combat. It's all part of the Progressive Program. And be happy, ya'll won, at least till Judgement Day. And thanks to the President's ME policy, that may be soon. LOL!
Actually, DADT didn't really work in the military. That's why it's no longer in effect. Kind of like "separate but equal," in that it sounds reasonable, but in practice, it's not.
It did work well. It was gotten rid of so you progressives can continue to tear down the moral fabric of our society. Why do you have to tell everyone at work where you like your significant other to hide da salami? Talking about sex and outward displays of affection are not appropriate in the workplace nor in public. That's why ya should rent a room. LOL!
It only worked if you were a bigoted straight moron who thought he deserved special rights.
YA, what's your hangup up where ya gotta tell everyone your own personal hangup? They should remain personal, that goes for straight or gay. And servin longer than you undoubtedly served, I'd say very few people gave a rats a$$ what you did, so long as you weren't pounding the guy in the next bunk over. All ALMOST anyone cared about is if ya got da job done. How hard is that to fathom. LOL!
Don't worry, with Obamacare, those risky behaviours will be treated with the most advanced medical care and drugs available. If your 55 and need a bypass, while not so much. I'll really enjoy watchin when they screw all the smokers and fat people with outrageous premiums and/or lack of care due to life choices. LOL!
The problem of course is that you wanted the special right to keep a photo of your spouse on your desk at work, without getting fired. You wanted the special right to talk about the movie you went to last night with your girlfriend, without getting fired. You wanted the special right to keep your job even if some bible-thumping bigoted moron discovered that you're straight.
And you wanted the people you hate to be denied the rights you enjoy.
So if I go out to see a movie with a buddy that means I'm pounding him? If I got a picture of a dude on the desk he can't be a special friend? If I got photo of a girl on my desk that means were knockin boots? Friends can't be friends? What goes on between them is nobodies business. It seems that the GAY movement iidentifies themselves by their sexual behavior. I would hope that is a very small part of being a person.
But as a straight guy you never had the fear that you'd lose your job because you had that photo on your desk. Gay folks not only had that legitimate fear but some did indeed lose their military careers over such trivia, all because some bigoted moron reported that they might be gay.
That's what special rights and privileges mean - you had the right to have that photo and not lose your job. Sounds like you're just another greedy bigot, Mac.
As a supervisor with my own desk and sometimes office for over 35 years, I never had a picture of my wife and kids on my desk. What's such a big deal ya got to stare at em all day? Ya don't see your special someone after work?
While we're talkin about greedy bigots, why do practicing GAYs force their way into Christian Priest/Preacher and Bishop positions when the good book condemns fornication, adultery and sodomy? If it's distantly against the Bible, why do these people demand and receive the right to lead a flock while they go counter to it's teaching? LOL!
They're just following the example of that gay dude known as Jesus, a rabbi who deliberately violated the Talmud by never taking a wife......but who was really fond of his friend John.
You do realize that:
A) Practicing homosexuals aren't any more adulterous than practicing heterosexuals.
B) Fornication, at its Latin roots, speaks only of prostitutes.
C) Sodomy is a misnomer term, since Sodom was not destroyed for homosexuality but a large variety of other sins, including attempted rape of guests.
I believe the Jews stoned Homosexuals in those days, and a fornicatin preacher, and as I was always told one that is not married copulatin with other people they were not married to is an abomination and they shouldn't be preachers also. As for tryin to screw male angels , even when offered up some hot daughters, well, we know how that ended. LOL!
Also I believe the stats on lifetime sexual partners average in the hundreds for homosexuals, some score in the thousands, not so much for straights, though most wish so. That, besides the enterin which was for for exit only is a major reason why the rate of STDs are so high among Gays. At least what I've read. I really don't know. Dislike gittin the hose up the butt again on Monday .LOL!
Peace Out Bro.
They stoned adulterers and those who had sex while not married. Didn't matter the sexuality. In addition, it was a social requirement for men to attempt to father children, hence the allowance of multiple wives.
Read Ezekiel.
Research:
The numbers don't support your contention.
False. Education and stigma have been shown to be the reason STDs are higher amongst homosexual men.
Lesbians have the lowest transmission rates of any demographic.
That, besides the enterin which was for for exit only is a major reason why the rate of STDs are so high among Gays
False. Education and stigma have been shown to be the reason STDs are higher amongst homosexual men
I find it hard to beleive that STD rates are higher due to Education and stigma. I always read that Gays are smarter and more educated and more affluent than straights.
But what would I know.
Peace Out Bro.
Apparently very little.
Education: proper use of condoms, including when to use (homosexuals get only the basic education given to the general public in school, which has been hammered low by conservatives).
Stigma: fear to ask for assistance, fear to ask for information, fear to get tested (all because people still vilify and attack homosexuals or anyone who shows signs of being homosexual, regardless of reality).
There should never have been a ban. Lifting it is long over-do. Banning anyone based on sexual preference is discriminatory, unconstitutional, and a shameful reflection on the Scout organization. Those who act as leaders, or who belong, have a right to love whomever they choose. As human-beings, they have a right to the same privledges as heterosexuals. Sexual preference is no ones business but the individuals'.
Yet I'm betting you've never even thought twice about Girl Guides completely banning men from leading groups Nancy... Is that a "shameful reflection on the Scout organization" too, or just when it's homosexuals banned?
Nancy,
In a private club I have the right to decide what the rules are if I am the majority of the club. you cant mandate your beliefs on a private club as much as you may wish.
Yes. Private clubs can decide who gets to join. The Supreme Court affirmed that more than a decade ago. It's nice, I suppose, that instead of being forced by a court, the Boy Scouts have embraced equality on their own.
Then JackhamerJohn I fully support their acceptance. I simply have a problem with forced acceptance. So congratulations to your folks!
Calyps,
If it were just gays and lesbians voicing support for the ban lift, I doubt anything would have happened. There are a lot of heterosexual parents, and scouts, that want to have this ban lifted. There a number of churches that affirm gays and lesbians. The sad part of this was that it wasn't until their pocketbooks were being affected did this change of heart take place. These corporations weren't being protested against or being boycotted. The corporations simply stated they weren't going to contribute to a private organization because of their policies. That is their right to do so. But placing the blame on gays and lesbians for creating this atmosphere of change is giving them way too much power. It took the strength and courage of heterosexual parents and kids to stand up and say, "We do not want to discriminate." That is a powerful statement.
rossi,
Bull !!!!!!
Nancy, as for the BSA banning on the basis of sexual preference, the US Supreme Court disagrees with you. Just what part of "the right of the people peaceably to assemble" did the US Supreme Court understand that you do not? The policy may be mean (your subjective opinion), but "unconstitutional" it is not.
Jesus, Calyps, get with the program. No one is forcing this on the BSA. No law has been passed requiring that they change their policies. The arbiters of the highest law of our land, in fact, concluded that the BSA did, in fact, have the right to set its own criteria, including discriminatory criteria, as you are so loudly bleating on about. Do you understand this?
If the BSA makes a change, they're doing it of their own volition. They are not being legally forced to do so. Seriously, get this through your skull. Times are changing. If you want to remain bigoted, angry, and hateful, that's an unfortunate choice on your part.
I recently saw a bumper sticker that said simply, "Some people are gay. Get over it." An apropos sentiment for you, I think.
Where does this spiral descent into the abyss of depravation end? I am a closet necromaniac who also likes to engage in the carnal delights of beastiality. Oh, and did I mention that I am and a full-fledged member of NAMBLA. Please don't judge me. I was born that way--it is in no way a lifestyle choice, but I was genetically coded with this pre-disposition. I would like to become an Eagle Scout but until now felt that door was permanently closed to me. Now I can keep hope alive. I just hope that no big fat bible thumping redneck will hunt me down with his 30 round assault rifle just because I sacrifice chickens in my backyard in the free practice of my religeon. I really love this country.
Hector, How long have you been in congress?
Pedophilia, necrophilia, and bestiality are equivalent to homosexuality so long as you remain willfully ignorant of a basic concept called INFORMED CONSENT. You know, just like a heterosexual marriage is equivalent to an adult man raping an underage girl.
Bill O Rights 13 banned, failed audition.
7 deleted, mostly antigay slurs.
I don't think it was right of the Boy Scouts to ban homosexuality and then never tell anyone about it or post it in their bylaws. If this private organization was upfront about its membership criteria, we could have avoided this whole twisted mess.
As a male with a an active heterosexual appetite, I have always wanted to use the woman's changing room at pools to score some nice ~20-30 year old eye candy. Unfortunately the sign on the door says women only, so I have no legal grounds to sue for gender discrimination.
Thankfully the boy scouts hid their bias, and only used it to prevent long-term members from advancing. By being allowed to join an organization without any clue that it has a orientation bias, these members were duped into thinking they met the entrance criteria for this private organization. That's legal ground for false advertizing at the very least!
Again, the problem is that most boys join the BSA long before they come to a point there their sexual orientation becomes an issue. I joined the cub scouts at about 8 or 9 years old and the boy scouts a few years later. At that time, my sexual orientation was the farthest thing from my mind. I liked girls, I liked guys, it just didn't occur to me that there might be more to the guy thing than I realized. That all came later, actually once I was out of the scouts. So the argument that "they should have been aware of this when they joined" is for the most part just a bunch of BS, someone trying hard to make a point instead of appearing the homophobic bigot they actually are.
Activists don't join an organization in order to benefit it or learn from it.
Activists join an organization in order to SUBVERT it.
So let me get this straight... Men and women of homosexual orientation are not allowed to be group leaders in Boy Scouts? The reaction is outrage, multiple headlines on major news sites, slinging insults at the BSA, telling them to "get into the 21st century," etc etc...
On the other hand, the Girl Guides happily ban men of any sexual orientation from leading Girl Guide groups. The reaction? Silence.
The double standard on this makes it hard for me to take this hypocritical outrage seriously.
and some will never forgive the boy scouts for what they have done.
So? Boo-hoo, and eat me raw.
Bigger_in_Texas: Bet you're really enjoy it! Also, that handle you have...it's not always true. Wish I could sue for all the times it was misleading!
If you and your children want to live this life style why not just start your own BSA,instead of forcing your way into a socity where you will never fit in!!! When one tries to force people into exceptance, all that will be accomplished is your child or you will be hurt will
Or work for change. And win. Like they did.
Why would anyone wan to be a part of the BSA? They are filled with child molesters!
CerealKiller13,
Yes, and child molesters of the same sex are homosexuals. Look up the definition of a sexual act between two people of the same sex. Jerry Sandusky was a homosexual.
The same could be said of the Catholic church.
The same could be said of the Catholic church.
That's exactly correct.I wouldn't allow my kids in either of the 2 immoral & perverted organizations.
Cerealkiller13: Bull@!$%#. I have been involved either as child or as an adult in BSA for many years. The BSA has MUCH lower incident rate of child molestation than any other organization. Religious organizations, especially the Catholic Church have much higher incident rate of molestation than the BSA. Also the BSA has very strict rules about adult/child interaction, foremost is absolutely NO one one one private interactions between and adult and a child. Period. Under ANY circumstances! That is in EVERY training video, class, booklet, etc. BSA puts the adult leaders threw. Don't believe me? Join the BSA and find out. If an incident of molestation occurs in any BSA organization it is because the local chapter is NOT following BSA guidelines. You are obviously speaking from a position of ignorance.
Coach: Jerry Sandusky may be a homosexual, but more than likely he's just one twisted f'ed up person. I dare you to find one normal healthy well adjusted gay male who'd rather molest children than have consensual sex with another adult person of their gender. Sure there are maladjusted and/or repressed individuals who are gay that will molest a child (see my above to cerealkiller about how difficult that is to do in the BSA). But then, the same thing can be said of "heterosexuals", we too, in far greater numbers, abuse children too. Even male children. (at least they claim to be heterosexual) Again, you are speaking from a position of ignorance, of at least very limited social interaction.
JLK: Spot on! Leaving your child with a priest is BY FAR riskier than in a BSA lead organization.
Only two things creeped out as a kid: Priests and Clowns.
And yep, I grew up Catholic, went to a Catholic school and was in the Cub Scouts. Twenty some odd years later, I was a parent of a Cub Scout, I served Assistant Cub Master for the pack and various other positions within that pack. I was involved in the pack for 5 years before the ex took the kids to CA. Finest group of human beings I've ever the pleasure of knowing. Of course we harbored an openly lesbian/gay couple in our pack, I suspect a good percentage of packs/troops already do. This decision by the BSA, if they make it, will not change much. Those area's with strict religious beliefs will not allow, and those more progressive areas will allow. (which they already have been doing).
No real change, nothing to see here...
This is a sad sad moment. One of the last great organizations that maintained a moral compass now follows the rest of society into the cesspool of depravity.
Who are you to decide who people can or should fall in love with?
Jock you are missing the point of the whole conversation. I doubt if anyone on this forum gives a rat's backside if you are a pie lover or a sausage lover. People in private clubs should not be subjected to your type of interference. Thus the name of "private" clubs.
Most scouts in years past had no idea that scouting was a private club.
The name was Boy Scouts of America. ...Of America, not of an exclusive private organization.
Sorry bicfj (or should I say Fredb786), it IS A PRIVATE CLUB. Enlighten yourself it will do you wonders.
Yes, you FOOLS, it is indeed a private club which is, on its own, considering changing its stance on something. No law is forcing them to do so. They are not being railroaded by the government to make this decision. They are not under court order to review their policies. They're waking up and considering this change ALL ON THEIR OWN. So for the love of god, stop crying and moaning!! Good LORD, the ignorance on parade here is just embarrassing to behold.
I HATE IT WHEN PRIVATE CLUBS ARE FORCED TO DO THINGS!!! Of course that's not what happened here, but I'M MAD ABOUT IT ANYWAYYYYY. Really guys, we get it. Private clubs should be free to have whatever policies they like. No one should force anyone else to change. Now what does any of that have to do with this story?
Not ready to forgive huh? I am. All you gotta do is ask!
Lets get off the big Gay wagon. Gay is a tough but true imperfection. If the world was to start to stop buying into the emporer's new clothes, we might start to realize how screwed up our views truly are!
You have to hand it to the Scouts who worked from within to get their organization to do the right thing. I gave up on the BSA over a decade ago. Note to self: cynicism is not always the best policy.
I would like to see all of the existing Eagle Scouts from the past who are gay come out of their closets.
Until the recent big flap about gay scouts, no mention was made of either scouts or their leaders.
My son's scout leader was very gay and retired from scouting years before the big flap
He is still a pretty decent person and never abused any of the scouts.
And how would you really know he didn't abuse any scouts? Real funny!
In the scheme of things being an Eagle Scout is not anything to be all that thrilled about. Some of the projects done to be an Eagle Scout are a joke. Planting flowers in a street median, give me a break...
People who are pedophiles are attracted to the fact that the kids are KIDS, not the gender of the kids in question. In fact, most pedophiles are HETEROSEXUAL MEN and the majority of the others are HETEROSEXUAL WOMEN. So, that heterosexual scout leader may in fact be abusing the boys in his troop or pack and it is more likely that HE is abusing them than that a gay scout leader would abuse them.
It will be interesting to see what happens on the local level since the National Office will still need to grow a pair before they can muster sufficient ethics and morals to do the right thing on a national level. Will gay scouts self select to specific troops with gay or tolerant leaders and sponsoring organizations? Will there be any bullying of openly gay scouts or troops? You don't think other scouts and troops will point fingers and call them names do you? You don't think there will be any overt or covert prejudice in terms of advancement and recognition opportunities do you? I'm not sure this is a step in the right direction - a variant of don't ask - don't tell and nothing really changes - except gay scouts will be easier to recognize and torment - once they've been tricked into revealing their sexual orientation - and the National Office can officially say "it's not our problem" - "we knew this would happen".
In reality not much will change since troops in enlightened parts of the country already accept gays, and troops in bigoted states will continue to ban them. Several major scouting groups like the Northstar council have already informed the BSA that they'll continue to allow gays, regardless of what the BSA policy is.
The funny thing is that the new policy is exactly like the racist policies the BSA held until 1974, where they allowed individual troops to be whites-only.
20 deleted, bill1942-3876944 flaming 'fairies'. You're suspended for a day for violating #5 of the Code of Honor.
hey what the gross! gay people ! they are not equels ! how many people have to catch aids in order to see that this is not good. it only cause a mess. i see gay as the other people who are not going to make it far in life due to life order! one man and one women! two men can not make a baby as for two women cant make a baby! wtheck! your dumb to think this is going to be a new world order its the same order as its ever been. i am not tryin to pick on you straight people that your right all the time but going gay is wrong. causes life long threats not just to our sex world but to our childrens worlds too. i think meth ,same sex and people with aids, people who smoke weed or ciggs, are not going to gain my pitty of life struggle they made their own choice. and if your gay your sick mentally and physically fighting fighting for your life anyway means possible. take it from me i think taken care of these kind of people is to ship them to their own village.
how often do you feel compasion for them? when they are on their death bed.
its the only way this world will die young is accepting gay people as equels. thats like God and the Son letting lucafer back in the kindom of heavens/? not possible. he will never change his ways.
i am real with my gay friends , thats cuz they are family.
i treat them as if they are straight to have a peace of mind of where they are really going but i still heave it in the back of my head that they will be burred in hell with that kind of thinking. gay is eqels
???
think bout it. its in the book of leviticus.
read it i dare you. its world changen. you too mr. obama i dare you to read it the big book called basic instructions before leaving earth. no threat just B.I.B.L.E and more love nd compasion. our God says just ask and you shall recieve. life forever.
look im not going to preach i was gay till i seen where i was going. invistion dark screaming cliffs of fire and humen graben humens pilled on top of eachother begging God to hear them when judgment had happend. young old wise. all have the same choice
children all have first seats in the kingdom.
have it be said that if you dont change God will change it. infact he has it already. amen. that you change and be friutful in Gods way and not of the worlds way.
and as for this i hope your eyes will want to change to make your brain change to make your heart to change and to make your soul change lets give it up to Jesus to win our fight.
God bless All the way from the village of alaska
peace and seal grease
The Boy Scouts were wholesome young men. It is to bad that the gays have to cry discrimation.
24 deleted, kip360 deriding 'queers'.
You're suspended for a day for violating #5 of the Code of Honor.
Can't you hear it now....."hey Jamie, let's me and you sleep in a separate tent tonight. It will be fun....OK?
Disgusting how the immoral acts of a few are being forced on all the people as well as the country.
I absolutely agree kkwilson. You cut right to the heart of it~the immoral acts of a few ARE being forced on EVERYONE in this country. Gays, murders, rapists, child molesters, and illegal aliens ALL have more rights than the rest of the moral, law abiding citizens in this country. Its a freaking screwed up mess. Straight people should all be livid that OUR rights are being violated by being forced to endure the constant whining of the gays.
What's gonna be next? Pedophiles crying that its their 'right' to rape children because they are 'born this way'??? The wackos into beastiality screaming their rights are being violated because they can't marry an animal and receive legal recognition for it???? God help us all.
SteveJNB, "normal" is and always was a male and a female with the ability to reproduce, NOT 2 members of the same sex who cannot.
Its a sad day in this country when a children's organization is even having to consider an immoral, sexual agenda.
Educate yourself: The vast majority of adult gay men have NO interest in sex with young boys. Full stop. Just like the vast majority of adult straight men have NO interest in sex with young girls. It really is that simple. Any attempt to make it seem otherwise is nothing more than the manifestation of ignorance, bigotry, or most likely, both.
And Nancy, based on your comments here, you seem to be a hateful bigot of the worst order. You must be one seriously wretched, miserable person, and I'm glad you don't have any influence on my family. Life is SO much better when you don't spend your time hating and condemning others for simply being who they are. I'm very happy that your antiquated views are rapidly becoming a pronounced minority in this country.
Thinkforyourself,
That is a flat out lie. It is a well known fact that American adult queers head to Thailand to have sex with under age boys. CBS even did an investigative report regarding this subject. It was disgusting, and someone should put a bullet in garbage like that. So don't give that crap about queers and under age kids. Jerry Sandusky is a queer and has sex with under age children. You don't know what you are talking about.
*sigh*
Coach, I'll let your offensive and disparaging usage of the word "queer" as a noun slide, though it reveals plenty about you, but do let me enlighten you to a concept called "critical thinking."
Jerry Sandusky is one man. He is not representative of all gay men any more than a single man who molests his 6-year-old niece is representative of all straight men. Can you process this? Such men are called DEVIANTS, which -- by definition -- indicates that they... wait for it... DEVIATE from the norm. Yes, men who have sex with little boys are "disgusting," as you say, but no more or less so than men who do the same with little girls. If you think the underage sex trade exists solely for gay men, you are seriously delusional.
You are also obviously willfully ignorant, so I'll not engage you any further, because I don't want your toxic stupidity rubbing off on me. Good day, sir. :)
Actually like 90% of all pedophiles, Jerry Sandusky is a man married to a woman who very likely self-identifies as straight.
If the BSA is going to allow gay people in their ranks, my question is what difference will it make? How will the dynamics change and how will the kids perceive all that has been going on?
Thoughts?
My thoughts, since you ask, are that the BSA will be reversing one of their basic standards of over 100 years.
Not much difference at all since there are already gay scouts just like there's always been, and the gay-friendly troops like the Northstar Council will continue to be gay-friendly, while the troops in bigoted parts of the country will continue to hate gays.
"while the troops in bigoted parts of the country will continue to hate gays."
Skrekk - I think it's more correct to say,"while the non-Bible believing folk continue to hate Christians." Christians are either labeled hypocrites or bigots because we won't bend in our beliefs. So much for freedom of religion that the 1st Amendment protects. Whose really the bigots here? If you don't like the standards of the Bible, choose a different belief system. Don't expect Christians to delete scriptures to make non-believers feel good about their choices.
Please don't smear all Christians with the bigoted views of your backwards cult.
Many Christians have no problem at all with gays, including major denominations like the Episcopal church and ELCA.
That is one scary lesbian, I wouldn't want her around my kids. She should coach women's basketball or softball.
Higher Risk of Mental Health Problems for Homosexuals
I was a member of the Cub Scouts and my grandsons went thru Cub Scouts and are now in the Boy Scouts. I have the deepest respect for the Scouts that teach moral responsibility grounded in a belief in God. To change an organization that has helped so many young men become productive members of society and many who became local or national leaders in the name of what? A life style that others wish to force on current members. This is another example of people who wish not to be just a part of mainstream society but to force others who disagree with their beliefs to accept them. America has become a society that panders to the minority regardless of whom or how it effects the majority of Americans and institutions that have been responsible for maintaining standards that have stood us in good stead for many years. The America that became a superpower and leader of the free world is vanishing quickly as the result of the destruction of our moral values and sense of responsibility.
Gays Never Learned how to forgive but, learned somehow to put their Dicks Where they were unwanted !
Yes - I am whole heartedly against Gays in the BSA .
Do you want your unsuspecting sons to be taken advantage in the A Hole when they are most Vulnerable and Trusting In The GAYS Tent ?
Gives a whole new meaning to BSA Exploration !
I suppose there has never been a Scout Master convicted of child molestation. You probably believe the whole priest and boys thing was made up as well.