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Subscribe to RSSLadies, for the first time ever, Uncle Sam soon may be pointing at you.
Days after the Pentagon cleared women to take certain combat roles, advocacy groups for military women say another new hour has arrived for all young female adults to register with Selective Service, the giant pool of names collected by the government should America ever opt to revive the draft.
The movement to require women ages 18 to 25 to sign up for Selective Service — mirroring the law for all U.S. men in that demographic — is rooted in both active-duty and veteran circles.
The Service Women’s Action Network (SWAN), which strives to represent all women in the armed forces, believes such a change is simply the logical next step to Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta’s decision last week to erase the long prohibition on females in combat.
“SWAN advocates for the inclusion of women into Selective Service,” said Anu Bhagwati, executive director of SWAN and a former Marine Corps captain. “Lifting the ban on women officially serving in combat is about giving qualified women the opportunity to serve and making our military stronger, and that would include having women register for Selective Service."
“If you are going to say ‘total equality’ in the military, that has to include Selective Service registration,” agreed Cassaundra StJohn, founder and CEO of F7 Group, which provides resources, training and mentoring to female veterans. StJohn served in the Air Force and Air Force Reserve between 1985 and 1998, reaching the rank of staff sergeant.
Amid his historic announcement last week, Panetta alerted administrators of the Selective Service System “to exercise some judgment based on what we just did.”
Selective Service officials heard that remark. Since then the agency — an independent office within the executive branch — has been conducting a "what-if drill" in case a Defense official or Congressional member asks what adding women to agency's workload would cost the country, said Pat Schuback, spokesperson for Selective Service.
Paula Bronstein / Getty Images
View images of the women deployed as the second Female Engagement team in Afghanistan
"We're not the policy-making group. We're kind of like mechanics. We just do what we're told to do. We have the mechanism. We don't hold a position on whether to draft women or not," Schuback said.
Should that change occur, Selective Service — which has about 130 full-time employees across the country — would "need to be probably resourced a little bit," Schuback added. "But we don't anticipate that it would be a lot because the machinery's the same. It would be in the man hours of answering the inquires, handling questions and doing direct mails out to people to remind them" to register.
Panetta also set a May 15 deadline for each service branch to provide “detailed plans for implementation” on how female service members will be placed into combat duties, said Nathan Christensen, a Pentagon spokesman.
“Following that, a formal notification to Congress will be made, detailing (combat) occupations that will be opened to women,” Christensen said. “Selective Service requirements are determined by law, and we can't speculate on any changes to law.”
However, federal law does require DOD — after making such sweeping policy changes — to provide a breakdown of the impact those shifts may have on the Selective Service Act, senior Defense officials said in a briefing last week. That analysis, they added, “will be part of the notification to Congress” made by DOD after each branch reports back to Panetta in May.
One female veteran who was attached with an infantry team in Ghazni, Afghanistan, argues that with the female-combat ban gone, women should now be Constitutionally guaranteed the right to be eligible for Selective Service — and a possible military draft.
“It can be hard to adapt to new customs. There will be some feathers ruffled,” said Courtney Witt, a former Air Force senior airman, who also served in Iraq. “... It is a little difficult, for some, to see our daughters, sisters and wives go off into war.
“I can’t explain the feeling you have when you have fought alongside brothers and sisters in arms. It’s a bond that can never be broken ... It’s an amazing patriotic feeling,” Witt said. “Shouldn’t any man or woman be a part of that?”
The drawdown of U.S. forces and the pullout from Afghanistan make the chances of a draft reinstatement far less likely than, say, even eight years ago when Coalition forces were battle-thin and bogged down in Iraq, experts say.
But there are some in Washington who still favor bringing back the draft — as a deterrent to war.
In 2010, Rep. Charles Rangel, D.-N.Y., reintroduced a bill that would require all U.S. men and women between the ages of 18 and 42 to perform national service, either in the military or in a civilian service that helps national defense. The bill died in committee.
At least four times before, Rangel has written similar bills that would have restored the draft.
“There's no question in my mind," Rangel told the New York Times in 2007, "that we wouldn't be in Iraq ... if indeed we had a draft, and members of Congress and the administration thought that kids from their communities would be placed in harm's way."
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When this countries politicians, lobbyists,hollywood actors,multi millionaires,billionaires and all the other elitist crowd have their 18-25 y/o daughters sign up for a future selective service then i'll allow mine to....as long as there is no favoritism. but the elites kids will get cushy desk jobs while the working man and womans kids get combat roles.
Do you have any sons LN?
all 18 to 25 year old men have to sign up.. Doesnt matter what your status symbol is.
SO yes if they say that women 18-25 have to register yours will be expected to, or face the same issue we men have to if we ignore it.
Blame the liberal left and the feminists for making your daughters sign up for the draft. ( should we have to use it again )
scuba...yes.
jeremy...read my post again.i have no problem with my daughter having to sign up for selective service as long as assignments are handed out fairly.you know and i know just like everyone else the rich elites in this country receive preferential treatment and if they do why should i have my daughter possibly in harms way just because i'm not rich.and if you don't believe rich and elitist folks don't get preferential treatment i have some real nice swamp land down in florida thats ready to build a strip mall on. thats my point!
Women can't have it both ways. If they want to same freedoms to serve in the US military as men, then need to meet the same requirements. Selective service being one of them. Physical requirements need to be equalized also. Currently women are not held to the same physical standards as men. No double standards can be allowed.
If they can do the job just as well as the men they are serving with then more power to em. I'm just glad i don't have to deal with the gender related issues that will come from fully gender integrated units. It's bad enough dealing a group of young hormonal males. Put young females into that mix and managing it is going to get very sporty.
how sick have we become when we first put women on the front line then make young women sign up for selective service. Drafting women for front line will be next. If i had a daughter there's no way i would let her be drafted. Can you imagine a young wife with a kid getting drafted to go fight on the front line? I can not fathom it nor do i want to. What a Mad World
I am sorry but as a 27 yo woman WTF! Not all women are tough as nails and can go out and do the things our boys can. Honestly I don't know how they do it but I thank them on a regular basis for doing what I would not be able to. If these women REALLY want to fight along side our men then they need to be able to run as fast, jump as high, and lift as much as anyone else is required to.
Another example of the war on women! :-p
So how's that whole "equality" thing working' out for you? Bout like that "Hope and Change" I'll bet.
Equality is not as simple as people think it is, Is it? The proponents of Women's Equal Rights have said that they are able to do the same jobs as members of the opposite sex, and are getting a chance to prove their mantra. There has long been a discrepancy in the military of the differences between males and females, as evidenced in the Physical Fitness Tests of military branches[ie., APFT, MPFT etc.]. They will also have to equalize these standards, to allow true equality, hopefully they do not lower standards to compensate and put other soldiers at risk! Another part is that these same standards, can be used by all, by their failure, to get out of the military if the draft is ever enacted. There will be women that are able to meet the standards that are set for men in the military, but the majority won't be able to. Even in a country that has a draft, Israel, they still have a discrepancy between the percentage of men and women being drafted at the age of 18. The Women are excluded from draft if pregnant or a mother. Men must serve for 36 months, and women serve 24 months. Their positions assigned are gender based. They actually have some feminists that want the draft for women to end to allow women the opportunity to educate themselves and get a head start on men.
Have always felt that both male and female High School drop outs and graduates should do 2 years of service for their country, particualrly in the U.S. It need not be military, it could be something like AmeriCorps' Vista or another of their programs, the Peace Corps, etc. My main reason for this belief is that it takes a late teen out of their comfort zone and lets them see how to survive in (grow to adulthood) in a supervised environment. Not said quite like I mean it, but hopefully I have provided the gist of my thoughts for this idea.
Women should not be drafted.
consider-it
"Women should not be drafted".
Then women should have kept their pie holes shut.
Consider-it..."Women shouldn't be drafted". Why not?
Not all males are tough as nails or capable of combat either, but we still have to sign up.
I'm all for equal opportunity.
But if it doesn't come with equal requirements and equal consequences, then it was never equal opportunity to begin with!
CNorton - all women don't want the same thing. If a few women want to fight, they're going to speak up.
I find this development interesting. Women might be drafted. It looks like we are slowly building up to a major war. WWIII any body? The only reason to get women as well as men in the military is because there is a VERY BIG WAR on the horizon where we will Draft anything that moves. We are on schedule. The first bowl has already happened, the boils due to world wide Fracking. We are between the first bowl Judgement and the second and are on the edge of WWIII, which is exactly what was predicted in the Book of Revelation. It is also portrayed in the "Thief In The Night" series on the last film called Prodigal Planet.
@ The Dougler & CNorton; All this women should have kept their mouths shut is pretty disgusting. If you want someone like me fighting next to you or one of your close family memebers then by all means however it would not be in anyone's best interest as I am not as physically strong and capable as most guys. I am however more capable mantally than many so I can say whatever I like.
What does that have to do with this?
The way you vote has nothing to do with it. Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Independent, etc. all irrelevant to my statement.
Yes, young women could and should be included in the Selective Service. I don't believe anyone has suggested excluding rich kids so, LN, your statement doesn't make much sense. Also, for those of us who have sons we gladly share this risk with the parents of daughters. Our daughters share in the benefits of living in this great nation and it follows that they will be willing to share in defending it.
Don't include me in the "women should have kept their mouths shut" comment. That was not my comment, nor my intent.
My point is simple. Equal rights, means equal rights where things can be equal, not where you want them to be equal.
Even if women with inferior capabilities were drafted, they likely would never see front lines.
We currently have nearly 1.5 Million Americans in the military right now, and it's highly unlikely that anyone is getting drafted any time soon.
But I stand by what I said. Equal rights should mean equal requirements and equal consequences, or the rights were never equal to begin with!
Why does everyone assume that the people who wanted women in the ranks *didn't* consider they'd have to register for the draft? I think that was a pretty obvious conclusion.
Not all men are tough as nails, either. Many women could kick the butts of many men.
Anyway, given that we didn't have a draft to support the Bush wars, I think the possibility of any in the future is pretty slim.
You can't have it both ways. Men that are unfit for combat fill other jobs in the military. The same must be applied for women. College deferments are blatant discrimination. My son or daughter has plans for college. Yours have plans to train as a technician or medical assistant. All plans must be put on hold to serve in times of war or national emergency. The only consideration for deferments should be age, serious disability or fathers and mothers of dependent children.
Interestingly, 30% of all kids will fail the physical for a draft for merely being obese...so you fat kids, male or female, get a pass right off....
All you'll have to do is endure weeks of humiliation as Officers, NCOs, and doctors prod and poke you...
Sucks to be you...
As to the Selective Service; it's about time. Registering for the Selective Service should be a responsibility for any able-bodied American when they turn 18; sex shouldn't be a consideration...
Women should be proud to go fill out the form...with equal rights comes equal responsibility...
Its funny that "the war on women" only applies to when a democrat is using it against a republican but if this is not war on women then what is? How do you expect a society to survive if we don't have women and women to take care of their children? If there are some dyke women that want equal rights to get shot at then let them have it, us normal women do not have to be drug through this because they want it!!!
gee another thing to thank these thunder@!$%#s for- mandatory draft for women, a right i never wanted nor asked them to fight for. just like the right to work like a man/dog and have my children raised by strangers. maybe some of us liked things the old way, women stayed home and raised kids men worked and provided for the family, ladies kept their legs and mouths shut and most children had 2 parents in the home and at least 1 available to them 24/7 365. adding women doubled the labor force and drove wages down for all - creating the situation we are in now where it take 2 jobs to live half as well as we used to. in the late 50's both of my working class grandparents could buy a brand new house in a nice suburb on that one blue collar job by age 21 and raise 4 kids with enough left over for yearly vacations to Niagara falls, the grand canyon, yellowstone, the great smokey mountains etc. tell me how the current situation is an improvement, what blue collar job can you get now that pays enough to marry and buy a brand new home and take a yearly vacation fresh out of high school/ military.
I don't care what gender you are. You are a misogynist.
If you want to be a SAHM, find a way to make it work. Plenty of couples do.
The elitists will have their doctors declare they have some medical condition that prevents them from serving, Howard Dean unable to go because of medical conditions, which did not keep him from skiing in the Alps when he should have been in the military, or maybe Joe Biden (his son does serve) who was unable to serve his country because of Asthma but liked boxing as an exercise. Yeah, I know George Bush joined the National Guard, of course his Father lied about his own age so he could get into World War II before he was old enough to serve.
Most of the posters here don't seem to understand what front-line (including hand-to-hand) combat is. For those who haven't experienced it personally, you can view documentaries such as "Restrepo", "Band of Brothers", etc. to get a taste. You should also familiarize yourself with PTSD and its effect on people's lives, the high rate of suicide in combat military personnel, the psychological effects in women who have been brutally raped, etc.. Any female who wants to go into front-line combat should be fully aware of all of this. There should also be a study of the effects on front-line soldiers survival, ability to accomplish assigned missions, morale, etc.. There should also be a referendum of all the females in the country to see if they are in favor of being registered for the Draft to be taken into the military to fill front-line combat roles. Then, a Company of females who are already in the military and want front-line duty (and fulfill the same physical requirements as males) should be formed and tested out in a front-line position e.g. a fort in a location like the Korengal Valley. A decision on whether to have females in front-line combat should not be made until the results of these things are known. The current decision has all the earmarks of a payback promised for political support in the last election.
niece1964 - "but if this is not war on women then what is?" So, it's not a war on men to compel a male of a certain age to register for the Selective Service (during time or war or not) under threat of imprisonment? But, to turn around and suggest that women should be compelled to do the same is a "war on women"? Give me a huge f'in break. Talk about a double standard. Being "drafted" doesn't mean you'll ever be away from home, let alone serve in the front lines. It means compelling you into government service in a time of need. It could be as a clerk or secretary at home, or providing logistical support. If you want equal rights, you should expect equal responsibilities/requirements under the law.
I know the draft/selective service have previously faced 14th Amendment challenges, and somehow survived. But, I think given today's political and social climate, I think it could be struck down in its entirety, or at a minimum the sexual distinction.
The next baby step.
Every time we have had a spike in the 18-30 male population.....America hosts a war to thin the herd.
Imagine the draft with the names of EVERY person in the 18-30 population. The rich who own this country will have a field day, killing off the livestock.
During the Vietnam era it was well known that National Guard units would not be sent to Vietnam. Because National Guard units were the perfect place to hide from the draft, each Guard was totally full in every state, with a lengthy waiting list. You could not buy your way into a Guard unit BUT you could clout your way into a unit. If you have a wealthy and powerful and influential family you could somehow find an opening for the sons of wealth and power. That's why Clinton had to run away to England, he came from a piss poor family, and could never get into the Guard or finagle a deferment. That is also why George W. Bush, Dan Quayle and Steve Forbes spent their time in the Texas, Indiana and Connecticut National Guard protecting the shores of the USA from a Viet Cong attack. Meanwhile Romney was bicycling around France giving away the Book of Mormon. C'est bon!!
mountainlady...have you been living under a rock your whole life or are you one of the those who have big $ and will make sure your daughter doesn't have to do any of the.......dirty work?
NOBODY should be drafted!
As a personal trainer, I know that the overwhelming majority of women would never qualify for combat. You have to look long and hard to find one woman who can do one pull up after years of lifting weights. I also served in the military and I'm wondering about a number of things. At the top of the list is sexual harassment. How wonderful to be drafted into an environment in which you have to meet your superior out in a cornfield at night because he says so. The sexual harassment really is bad. Maybe there will be protection in numbers, but right now the #1 reason women do not reenlist is sexual harassment. Being taken prisoner of war should be interesting, too. However, the thing I wonder about most is this: If few women would actually qualify for combat, but are drafted in equal numbers as men, what jobs will they do? and does that mean that all men who are drafted will see combat, since they would have to do the jobs that women cannot? Not all men presently see combat. Many have noncombat jobs, too. And it is not because they do not physically qualify for combat. It is that they are trained as computer programmars...What will the military do? Send the women home.
HA! Pretty much a guarantee there'll be no draft then!
johngis
how sick have we become when we first put women on the front line then make young women sign up for selective service. Drafting women for front line will be next.
@john,
You don't get drafted for any particular job. Your MOS (military occupational specialty) is based on attitude testing. This draft registration for women is long over due. Equal rights = equal responsibilities.
I was one of America's last draftees, getting drafted in June, 1972. I retired in Setember, 1998 and can honestly say I met very few females during my service who could serve in a combat arms MOS. I have known very few females in civilian life who would make in in a combat arms MOS. The demands, both physically and emotionally, are very rough.
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Jeremy-960164
Blame the liberal left and the feminists for making your daughters sign up for the draft.
Jeremy, another gotta turn this into a political statement guy. Aren't you one of those who always like to point out how "conservative" the members of our military are? Yet you now want to bend this into another liberal fantasy. Sorry but you can't have it both ways. Cons helped make this decison just as much as any liberal did.
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makessense-7131188
I am sorry but as a 27 yo woman WTF! Not all women are tough as nails and can go out and do the things our boys can.
@mnakesense,
Doesn't matter. All the men who got drafted weren't the same either but when called they served. Many didn't come back from WW2, Korea, or Vietnam. You want equality, you share the responsibilities that go along with it.
Absolutely! The fastest way to get rid of stupid wars is to have everyone do 2 years of service. This is great!
If we increase service to include teaching/building/childcare, we can have everyone serve without worrying about tiny men and women who can't lift a gun.
This IS NOT the supreme terrorist land of Israel. I will not support my daughter being drafted so scum bag politicians can have her fight in some illegitimate war for greed and profit. You know damn well not one politicians daughter will be in the draft.
America more corrupt that it has ever been!!
Watch what you ask for, ladies- you're going to get a bit more "equality" than you wanted. If MY sons have to sign up for slavery, so should you!
imwhitewolf- who cares whether all women are tough as nails- not all men are, either. As long as our boys face the specter of forced servitude to the pathetic masses, so should the women. MAYBE with both sexes facing it, the idiot politicians will finally end war. But I doubt it- it's so easy to distract the people with a war, and how much easier will it be to get BOTH parties to vote for military expenditures if women are in as much danger s men are?
I wouldn't allow any of my children, sons or daughters, to be forced to fight wars for the elite, politicians and corporations as is becoming the norm.
My children's lives are more important than any citizenship. We'd be out of here before they finished drafting those with last names beginning with "A".
Neale Osborn:
Why is anyone signing up for slavery acceptable to you?
As a Submarine Naval veteran, I like this. Everybody does National Service, some in the military, some at home, like our own National Peace Corp. I believe as Charlie Rangel does, that there will never be another war of choice as long everybody's kids might have to go into a war zone. I remember in 1966, when I was in junior college for one year and surfing more than studying, and realizing that I would soon be drafted or would volunteer for the Navy, I was kind of pissed the women never had to worry about any consequences of a draft, they were free. I have four daughters, and I wouldn't want them drafted into the military unless they want to go, although I would still argue against it, but I wouldn't have a problem if they into went some kind of National Service on the home front. As Milo said,"everybody has a share".
Never said it was, I just want enough people being forced to do what the government forces boys to do (I have 3 boys AND a daughter) so that EVERYONE will hate the concept as much as I do!
Robert A. Heinlein, 1961. And still true today. And I consider this "National Service" or "Universal Service" claptrap to be the same thing- enslaving our chidren, for any reason whatsoever, is a crime. IF the draft is ever re-started, I will take my children elsewhere or start the revolution myself.
No one should be "forced" to do anything they do not want to do; even from a government. We all have choices.
I like your Robert A. Heinlein quote.
Maybe if we had a little less testosterone involved in the military and more abhorrence to combat, we wouldn't be so quick to agree to start and wage these wasteful wars.
I've no issue with the Selective Serivce, as Neale Osborn thinks everyone will hate it if women are required to sign up. On by 18th Birthday I signed up and at 18 joing the US Army as a Cavalry Scout. Best thing I ever did... went to combat, saw my share of action, didn't puss out with that PTSD. I can't see any reason women haven't been required to sign up for selective service, what makes them so special? They're all US Citizens, right?
ANY female that wishes to be in the miliary, IMO, should be required to pass the physical requirements of men. They are able to get the same pay and same rank as men, but because of their lower standards, they can gain rank faster. THAT is not fair... and now they want to lower the standards of our Combat Arms Units?
It's NEVER been equal for men and women in the Military, we've ALWAYS treated women softly. IF you do that now, we're going to have a inefficent military.
And yes, you can blame that racist in the White House... not even a full month into his second term and he's already weakening our great country... and he's being applauded!!!
Excuse me, you idiots make me sick with your bias and double standards. Now you want chivalry. Spare me. I have a mother and sister, so I would never have wanted them in combat to begin with. Women wanted combat so bad, time to play the piper. As the glossy vaneer of democratic insanity fades, reality sets in. Not requiring a mandatory draft for both sexes is precisly the kind of double standard I hate from women. Acting tough, then turn into the weaker sex when faced with reality. Time to step up ladies. But women will die? You can thank your spinless, capitulating, congressperson for putting your daughters on the frontlines.
lmao play the piper (it's pay the piper, this immediately made me picture someone reaching up a kilt)
that aside, i agree. Equal rights, equal responsibilities. Simple as that.
there are plenty of jobs in the military that women are fine at.and id agree that a few would be great on the front line.have you seen some of the Samoan women sheesh.but for the most part i would hate to have risk my life pulling a girl out of the fire because shes too weak.men and women are different.its an inconvient truth of life and politically incorrect.too bad get over it
I love to listen to a bunch of liberal sissies in Washington and the media who secretly hate the military tell us all what's best for it.
I do not think women should be required to register for selective service. I am definitely not in favor of Charles Regal bill either. I am glad it died in commitee. NO ONE SHOULD EVER BE FORCED TO DO ANYHTING AGAINST THEIR WILL. And if this bill had not died in commitee I promise you all I would have written to Congress and I would have petitoned the mess out of Washington. There is no way between heaven and hell I would have allowed Congress to pass such a law that is infringing up on everybody's right to choose to serve in the military. That is not right. I cannot stand individuals with these kinds of mindsets. It is not right to force anybody to serve in the military male or female. He was very wrong for that bill. I am so glad that his own party struck that intrusive bill down. Why would you come up with a bill like that just to stop the President and Congress from going into war? There are other ways to prevent them from desiring to go to war so quickly.
Like one of the posters on here said: Surveys, studies, and test should be done for all women who are willing to participate. If women want to go, then allow them. If they do not, then do not force them and let them go. I dont agree with drafting young men against their will either. I think they should have the right to decide too. I think that amendment should be stuck down in all honesty. It is not fair. No parent wants to send their only son to war. Alot of parents feel that their sons should not be made to register for the draft. And I agree with them. Just as there are as many males 18-25 that do not want to register for the draft nor serve in the military, and they should not be forced to do it. I have always had a problem with that part of our Constitution. I think it is wrong.
I agree with Robert A Heinlein one hundred percent. Those are my sentiments precisely. If the United States of America do not have enough of voluntary citizens that want to serve in the military, the navy, the Airforce, the Army Reserves or the peace corps, then that is the government's problem. Then the government should go down the damn drain. "I say let the damned thang go down the drain." I cannot stress this enough. A government should never force any of it citizens into war not into service for it. Hell, it should give all of its citizens freedom to choose.
And to the poster that made that irrelvant idiotic statement about President Obama. This was not his idea. This was started in the National Defense Department by a woman. This all came from women. Women who want this and want to serve on the frontlines. Women who said its about time they be allowed to serve alongside men on the frontlines. This had absolutley nothing to do with the President.
I completely disagree with this however. No female should ever be forced to register for the draft. Point blank period. If they want to register and serve then thats fine and dandy. But do not force females who have no desire to serve in the armed forces to do so agains their will. They should be given a choice. I could careless how any man feels about this issue. This is wrong and every man that has a real heart and a real brain knows this is wrong. They know this should not be happening and this should not be allowed.
I didn't enlist in the first place. I was considering it, when a retired military officer found out, and he told me plainly about the sexual abuse that took place, and (in the 1970's) the shocking way that it was dismissed, even when he was arguing for the victims. Recently, the comic strip "Doonesbury" had a character named Melissa who went through the hell of sexual abuse in the 2000's. Fortunately, she had a great therapist to work with and male comrades who took her pain seriously.
On the other hand, one of my friends, an army brat, enlisted after she finished college, and she had a great time and was never sexually abused while in the service. She didn't re-enlist because she had other things she wanted to do.
Just like the fall of the Roman Empire. if the women want combat arms then they should be treated equal. It should truly be a equal rights for one all.
It makes me wonder, women had all the privileges and over the years they threw them all away, they gave up the pedestal and the power, to become like men, they were at their peak in the early 70's -late 60's, now they have to slave just like men it used to be optional now its mandatory, soon they will have to fill yet another roll man used to fill and that is die for your country, ladies you have been conned yet again, and they make you think you gained something while all the time you have been on the loosing end. I remember in the 50's my mother was more free then you will ever be, she commentated on that in the last days of her life some 29years ago, she said life really got to be nice till all the lib shi+ came along. you do realize that you were being brainwashed to serve the upper crust, you know the crust of shi+ that forms on top of something decomposing it forms above the froth, its always there. Example Billy Gene King ,big time woman's lib independently wealthy never had a worry, helped put all women to work, or should I say was partially responsible for making it necessary for all women to work, and cutting wages in half causing it to be necessary for two people to support a house instead of one, and destroying the neuclious famly and draging down our society. opening the avenue for degradation. and divisions of cultures.///
the trick is don't allow people to keep themselves buisy doing what they want to do (family stuff) keep them busy doing things that make people like Nancy Pelosi rich. oh yea Democrats!!! I remember when My Father worked all day and Mom prepaired a picnic dinner, and when he would get off of work we would all go to the park and eat, relax and play, when was the last time your family acted that way? people today have to introduce themselves when they enter their home and then are not sure if they are in the right house. hey lets get some more government. point being Slavery almost ended for women when all the wonders of the home came into being Appliances to do all the work, kitchen, Laundry, Vacuums, Grocery delivery? weed eaters, power mowers, what ever, work at home was replaced by lets do lunch, time for a movie, walk in the park, then womens lib get a job work every day why are those strange kids in our house, oh they're yours? it now takes two incomes to support a house, no vacations no life just make your job your life. it is time to wake up now Your precious Mr O just sold you out and made it look like you won some kind of a prize. get your gun and go to this place and????? you lose. by the way you will not see Obamas daughters where you will be.
Do you really think they will make a pregnant woman join? How about a woman with kids that she needs to take care of while her husband is working? Uncle Sam can point a finger all he wants, but women always find a way to have their cake and eat it too. Sometimes I am ashamed to be female.
D-Buck in particular.... what parallel univese do you live in? Marriage is and always has been about taking care of men. Men would work at their jobs even without a wife but with the wife they get the benefit of someone to do their laundry, listen to their troubles, raise their children and just deal when the husband decides it's all too much and bails on them. Do you have any idea how many women end up single parenting in the US? When men can get pregnant and go through labor and delivery then they can gripe. Otherwise women have been more than doing their share for centuries. Donna Reed and Father Knows Best are myths!
Women in combat is about being (finally) recognized for what women already do instead of being the power behind some man. Not all women are going to be happy about being included in the draft and expected to serve but I sent a husband off to Viet Nam and believe me, he wasn't happy about it either! We now have a largely volunter military and with the current economy I don't think that is going to change any time soon. I'm 62 years old and I still serve my community. When I was the right age to sign up for the draft I would have done so. Either we get rid of war (I'm certainly in favor of that) or all young Americans step up to the line when soldiers are needed. Don't like that? Move to Canada.
That one cracked me up lol.
Are you liberals out of your mind? First of all, not all women are feminists. If the liberal women want to spout equality, let them join up first. We would then see a lot less females on this newsvine.
Second, if the opportunities were the same, I think most women would join up willingly. However, we know full well that it will not be the same, because there is no equality even in the civilian workforce. I think too many feminists are jumping the gun again.
Third, the whole point of women not having a draft is to ensure that at least one parent can stay at home for the kids. Double the draft, double the possibility of both parents being called away.
Fourth, most young men can't deal with having too many females around them. You disturb their concentration. Going into the military would mean becoming one big frat party..... and don't think for one minute that it won't.
This list could go on and on....
Neale Osborn...(#1.44)...In part, "If a country can't save itself through the volunteer service of its own free people, then I say : Let the damned thing go down the drain!
Robert A. Heinlein, 1961. And still true today."
Debi-1314897 ...(#1.45)...I just want enough people being forced to do what the government forces boys to do...
No one should be "forced" to do anything they do not want to do; even from a government. We all have choices.
I like your Robert A. Heinlein quote."
_____________________________
Heinlein also wrote, " Once monkeys learn they can vote themselves bananas, they will never climb another tree."....Also, still true today.
Do you'se like that quote too ?????
_____________________________
"Everybody in Cleveland got ObamaPhone"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpAOwJvTOio
Now, girls, if you're between 18 and 26, take your ObamaPhone and go register with Selective Service....Cut off all Government Assistance to those that don't. And while we're at it, make sure it's a requirement in whatever "PATH TO LEGAL STATUS" the Pinheads come up with.
Penalties For Not Registering
A man who fails to register may, if prosecuted and convicted, face a fine of up to $250,000 and/or a prison term of up to five years.
Those who fail to register with Selective Service before turning age 26 may also find that some doors are permanently closed to them. For example:
• Registration with the Selective Service is a requirement for U.S. citizenship if the man first immigrated to the U.S. before his 26th birthday.
• Men who should register and don’t will not qualify for federal student loans or grant programs. This includes Pell Grants, College Work Study, Guaranteed Stu- dent/PLUS Loans and National Direct Student Loans.
• Federal job training programs under the Workforce Investment Act are only open to those men who register with Selective Service.
• A man must be registered to be eligible for jobs in the federal government and the U.S. Postal Service.
• Some states require proof of registration to get a driver’s license.
Fortunately, registration has been made increasingly convenient. Go to a U.S. post office and pick up a Selective Service registration card or register online at www.sss.gov.
I have stated this many times before: That amendment to the Constitution should be abolished. It should have never been written nor added to the Constitution in the first place. But it was and it is. It can be abolished if enough of us get together and draw up a petition and get enough people to sign it. It doesnt have to remain a part of the Constitution. We can call our state representatives and get them to change or abolish this amendment if enough of us band together and write up this petition and get the right amount of support behind us. If we really want things to change then we as citizens must band together one accord and change. Ghandi said it best: We must be the change we want to see in the world. If the men on here do not feel like they should have to register for the draft, then all of them and the women who agree with them, should join forces and write up the petition and get enough signatures on it to have that amendment changed. It can happen. History has plenty of stories like this. We can get Congress to abolish this amendment. I am all for abolishing this amendment because males 18-25 should not be forced to register for the draft against their will. Just as females in the same age group should not be forced to register for the armed services either. No one should be forced into serving their government. Everyone should be allowed to choose if they want to serve in the armed forces. Like I said this is very intrusive and very unfair. It is very wrong. And the bill by Charles Ragal or Regal is included too. That bill is very intrusive and very wrong. That is a horrific idea.
So your saying that only the feminist and men are capable of fighting for our country? Hmm. You know the viking women fought hand in hand with the men. I find no reason why women should not have to sign up for the draft as men do. Especially since we are an enlightened society and equality is important.
You do realize they have laws now that prevent all the male children from being drafted and would probably be revised to also ensure both parents can't be drafted as well. Read!
Wow, just don't know where to begin with that statement. I guess you could start with how you lump most men in the same category of not being able to control the little brain with the big brain. We coexist already in our jobs, on the buses, in the gym, and with neighbors, I just don't see this big frat party your talking about. How old are you anyways? You sound like a teen trying to understand concepts that are way beyond you.
Excuse me CNORTON, but it’s not “women” who are calling for this, it’s a few misguided individuals who want to act like men and assume that all women want the same. I, along with the majority of my U.S. sisters, personally like being treated as ladies. If those who want to be treated equally” (whatever the heck that means in their world) would like to serve in the military and pretend they are men, let them. Leave the rest of us out of it thank you very much. Where I come from, being treated “equally” means being respected by the men in my life, thought of as “equal” in intelligence and ability, and loved for the differences that make me uniquely a girl. Most of us have no desire to be one of the “boys.”
No major country has not had or have a draft policy going back to 2,000 BC to the Pharaohs. Our policy of all volunteer is a result of the Viet Nam war protest and has proven to be very expensive. In the event of another major war we will need a draft to fill the ranks, like in all wars in the past, and those that fill the ranks with our new policies will certainly be an interesting group.
Equal pay, equal work and equal assignment may fall into play with everyone of both sexes even though there will be many who want to be treated like a lady just like with the previous drafts there were men that had their own ideas of how they wanted to be treated which was always different to Uncle Sam's. That is why it is called a forced draft, once drafted you may complain but it falls on deaf ears.
As a women, I think this a great idea!
Mike- I'm a Heinlein-a-holic. Professor Bernardo De La Paz (modeled on Robert LaFevre) is one of my favorite characters. I don't want men OR women drafted. I want them ALL to realize what that "Harmless" little requirement actually means. My 18 yr old son just did it, and it offends the hell out of me that he had to or face penalties. Bread and Circuses is the original term, used to describe why Rome fell- the people learned to vote themselves Bread (the Dole, or welfare) and Circuses (gladiatorial games). Now we have welfare and MMA. And the voter is always being told "Vote for ME! I'll get you more government goodies than the other bastard!" Bread and Circuses, the death toll of democracy.
Maybe wives should demand to be paid a fair salary.
And like I said Mike, we all have choices. The sometimes tough part is taking responsibility for the results of those choices.
Neale Osborn...(#1.66).. I'm actually with you on this and all too familiar with "Bread & Circuses".....
But, by requiring both sexes to register with Selective Service ( you know, the FAIRNESS thing )...might give the politicians pause about " Foreign Entanglements".
Rome went from a Republic, to a Democracy , to a succession of the Caesars (dictators for the unread), to Financial ruin to the Ash-heap of history.....
We are on the razor's edge of Bread & Circuses....How long till D.C. crosses the Rubicon??.....
You wrote " Bread and Circuses, the death toll of democracy."
I say, Democracy, the death nell of the Republic.....
They still refer to it as the presidency, but we are already witnessing "Hail Caesar".
Debi-1314897...A few people "get it"....Neale Osborn. too
A short video you may like and want to share:
"The American Form of Government"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzQnBE3mYZg
Mike and Debi- I get it far too well. I have three more under 18- two more boys and a girl. I truly doubt that either party, Republican or Democrat, has the best interests of the people in mind. I used to think the Republicans had SOME sense, but afer their last two presidential runs, they proved they want to be democrat light.
Now, I'm a hardcore old-school Libertarian (not the current crop of Republican-lites). Fiscally more conservative than most, and socially quite liberal. I am a firm believer in the individual's right to succeed.. AND to fail. I do no support the welfare state, Obamacare, and public schools. I believe we need to slash ALL budgets, and put our own house in order, allowing the rest of the world to find a new beat cop. But I doubt anyone in power really gives a @!$%# what I think.And won't, until the revolution adopts the Constitution I wrote- NO ambiguities in this one!! LOL
I will not do ANY kind of involuntary servitude for the government, in the military or outside the military. Involuntary servitude is slavery, and slavery is wrong.
Involuntary servitude is also serving jury duty without compensation. The government propagandizes it as "Your duty as an American citizen". I call it involuntary servitude.
Yes, Debi, and requirements for pro bono services by attorneys too.
Nobody should be forced to work for anybody. For ANY reason.
Personally I think ALL 18yr olds, or just graduated from HS should serve 2yrs in the service prior to college. This is for EVERYONE. From the Presidents kids down to welfare kids, and everyone in between.
After those 2yrs, we will cover a 4yr public college education for them.
While I don't believe that women should fight in combat there are many forms of service they can do that doesn't require front line.
And YESS,,,if women want full equality then YES they should be signing up for selective service at their 18th birthday just as our sons do.
Janine,I think that's a good idea but I do not think that men or women should have to sign up with selective service unless our country is in eminent danger of being invaded by another country.
Good idea. I have no problem having women sign up too, although how many decades has it been since we last used the draft?
Cleaning Lady, If there was an imminent threat there would be not enough time to get a system put together, figure out who's eligible, what the rules are and then actually do the draft. By the time you'd do all that there would already be a foreign flag waving over D.C. It's best to get the list compiled and running so, God forbid, we are imminently threatened, we can pull in who we need quickly enough. That's how it's been since the end of the draft in the 70's: All eligible men had to register upon reaching their 18th birthday to qualify for federal programs.
Janine -- I absolutely agree with you! I've thought for years we should have a "service" requirement in the United States. In return, the government would provide a college education at a PUBLIC university. If a student wants to go to a private university, they would only get a standard stipend, the entire fee would not be covered.
I also agree that MOST young people should do their service first. I would make an exception for those going into medical training ... allow them to defer until AFTER the training, and serve their internship/residency in the military (or civil service). They would be of more value.
However, I do think there should be a civil service OR military service option. Many are not qualified for the military for whatever reason ... health being one of them. You can't serve in the military with asthma for example, but you could do other things.
I would take this so far as to see a significant amount of "military" jobs able to be done by a civil service requirement. Base pay for either option should be the same, with a "dangerous or combat" pay authorized for military service. That would be for the required two years. Options to continue in civil or military service, if qualifed, would then go into the standard pay bracket.
The key word is "eligible". There are plenty of young persons out there who have those "pre-existing" conditions. The same conditions that keep them from volunteering for military or service corps will keep them from signing up for a draft, too. My youngest daughter has epilepsy, and she will never even have a driver license, let alone qualify for a draft.
Essie ... your daughter may be an extreme example. But there are many thousands of young people with "preexisting" conditions that would exempt them from military service that would not preclude them from CIVIL service ... diabetes would be one such example.
This is how you kill off all the strong healthy people because all the weak sickly people would not be eligable. Doesn't make alot of sense does it?
Nor does paying for everybodies college based on some National service other than the military. The military is an actual job, many of these national service programs are similar to no show jobs, and I paid for my college on a GI bill and do not want someone else to get some non-work required position that says we all pay for their college.
Mandatory national service is involuntary servitude. Involuntary servitude is just another term for slavery. Slavery is wrong. Nobody should be forced to serve the government or be required to divert from their goals and dreams. Long live Freedom! Fight slavery!
expat, spoken like a true coward... explains the name...
Beth-440386, did you serve in the capacity that you propose for others? No? You must be one of the first to go then, regardless of your age. The next in line will be the oldest of us that also have never served. We'll work our way down to the 18 yrs. old. We've enjoyed the fruits of this nation far longer than others. It's only fair.
ive got a problem with a service requirement unless were at war.we are still a semi free country and compulsory service is a bit more authoritarian then im comfortable
@Janine: I completely disagree with you. I do not think anyone should be forced to do anything against their own will. They should have the freedom to decide. I am against this one hundred percent. If this kind of legislation was being debated and I got wind of it I would join forces with the ACLU and we would put an end to this. There is no way between heaven and hell I would allow the government to pass laws that infringe up on my individual freedom or anybody elses personal freedoms. It is not right and govenment should never have that much power or even allowed to have that much power. Your idea is absurd and so is Charles Regal or Ragal. Not only that, it is also intrusive and very wrong to impose such a law. It is just wrong.
I am a 56 year old female. My kids are raised. Why shouldn't I go to war if it happens again? I know how to use a rifle. Many of my age peers run marathons and are fitter than when we were in high school. (For me, boot camp would be very beneficial, although it might take a few more weeks.) I would rather go to battle than have my children go, as they still have their lives ahead of them, including the opportunity I've had to be married and to have children.
Nobody should be forced to do service in a free society. The draft is pointless now since we can deal with any threat using technology, we don't need massive manpower like in the past. If anybody who tried to invade us(which no one ever will), they would be wiped out in an instant. If we didn't start pointless wars like the ones in the Middle East (which were started to gain control of the area, not to fight terrorism), we would have plenty of troops to do any tasks necessary. Having people do forced community service and menial jobs for two years is even more pointless, and I don't see how people think that would really help anyone.
Actually ... yes. I was in the Army for over 15 years. You?
Then you are very short sighted. I can give you just ONE good example. Child and elder care. It does not take much training to help take care of elderly people OR young children if properly supervised. That would help our stressed medical field, where caregivers difficult to find. It would also help young people returning to school if they had reliable and cheap child care.
Nope. When and if mandatory service ever becomes law, I'll pack my bags long before I expect an 18 yr. old to fill my shoes (even as I detest the entire concept). Surely you have older relatives that have not served. I'll expect them at my side as our kids begin to build their own lives. Thank you for your service.
Sorry, no. MY family, INCLUDING the women, for the last three generations going back to WWII (and slightly before), have all served in uniform. But nice try.
Beth-440386, I did my very best to avoid calling you out in your first belated response (even though I fully expected such words to that effect in answer to my initial comment). I'm calling you out now because the likelihood of your latest response being true must be a million to one. I've heard there is a fool born every minute. I am not one of them. Shame on you.
Absolutely. Voted up.
Commonsense ... YOU with NO SERVICE calling ME out? What a laugh ... or more like bluster!
Some families have military traditions, mine does.
It was apparently YOUR minute when you were born!
What a sad tradition.
Fair is fair.
You are right about that.. Here come all of the buts from women who supported it last week when they were not smart enough to see this coming..
Really, because I didn't see a single, female poster in support of this, say they WOULDN'T register for the selective service. And that includes myself. I'm over 25 and I'll still do it, if that's allowed. In fact, I saw numerous female posters say, no problem, to this. Fair is fair.
Perhaps you're just looking for reasons to continue your misogyny?
@Sarah - you've always been allowed to register for Selective Service at 18. The only difference was that for women it was optional, as opposed to being mandatory for men. Well, mandatory if they wanted to realize Federal loans for college.
The real question is: How was the law NOT changed a long time ago? A law that clearly distinguishes between genders?
Side note: Back in high school, one of my buddies turned 18 after the deadline for registering for Federal loans. On his 18th birthday, his Selective Service card arrived in the mail. He hadn't filed anything yet, so it was mystery to him. The closest anyone figured was that he was automatically registered when the paperwork was filed. He had nothing against registering, but it was certainly weird.
Yup, fair is fair, and when I look at a female president in power and see half of Congress is populated by females, then I'll be happy to sign up. And when congressmen stop telling me that my body will shut down a pregnancy in case I'm "legitimately" raped. Until then, forget it. This country wouldn't even pass the equal rights amendment, and there are so few women in positions of power even 100 years after we got the vote, so why should females be required to sign on for a draft? I'll go die for the country when it represents me fairly.
I'm fine with it. My daughter isn't old enough yet, but when the time comes, she should register, just as her brothers will. I don't agree with reinstating the draft though. Hopefully it won't come to that.
Lee has a point though.
All of you people that have said to make everything equal for both sexes, I agree. Lets start with Viagra and birth control pills. Most, if not all insurance companies will, with a co-payment, cover the Viagra. Most, if not all insurance companies don't do that for birth control pills.
Make that equal and then you might have a leg to stand on. Until then, yada yada yada. Lee has a damn good point. And why is it there are less R's serving in the military than the D's? Lets get all the men into the service first, before they attend college. Then they can't claim a student deferment like some of them did for Vietnam.
Or pull a rushbo, claim he had a cyst on his rear end. Yea, the military Dr.s would have fixed it for him. but as an overweight loud mouth, it might have been a good thing he didn't serve. Otherwise our tax money would be paying him disability right now.
Could you please provide some sort of proof to back that up?
Sally & Lee,
I get what you're saying, but does that mean black men, gay men, non-Christian men, let's be blunt, anyone but straight, white Christian men, ALSO don't have to sign up.
Yeah, @!$%# still isn't fair across the board, but why cut off our noses to spite our faces. There is no magic wand to be waved that makes everything equal all at once. This is a step forward, that will make taking the rest of those steps just a tad bit easier. As does each bit of progress we achieve.
And NO we shouldn't, "Get all men into the service, first". We should get the ones that qualify and want the opportunity in AT THE SAME TIME as their female counterparts. That's equality, complaining about things being unequal, while supporting them being unequal in other areas is hypocritical.
Bizzer,
I have no idea, nor did I know I COULD register, else I would have. I remember having this discussion with an ex, about ten years ago, when we were fresh out of high school. It's always seemed patently unfair to me. The only reason I can think of now, is that gender discrimination is held to a slightly lower level of scrutiny then other forms of discrimination. Which if I had my way, would be changed.
What Lee says is that she gets to decide when it is right and what the criteria should be. If she were a he there would be no interpretation. I feel that I too should get a pass and will decide when it is fair, such as when the courts start treating men the same way as women, equal sentences for equal crimes enourmous desparity there, ending affirmative action that openly gives preference to a gender majority.
Bizzer is INCORRECT ...
According to the Selective Service website, women COULD register, but only if the legislation is changed to allow it.
For the record, I WOULD have registered as well, but was not allowed to. I volunteered instead.
Mystery easy to solve. Most likely your friend has a driver's license (or a state ID card). Those records go to Selective Service ... and you get your card.
Sarah, the answer is in the case of "Rostker v. Goldberg" which challenged male only draft registration ...
It is because of this ... the "draft of combat troops" that I see it changing as women will now be allowed into combat.
I have been in the military and will be the first to admit that women will never be a strong as men. I did PT with the men for the last couple months of training and it was very difficult to keep up with them. I was able to and I suppose if I had to I would have been able to keep it up, but it does some harm to our bodies in particular menstruation will stop or may not be regular. Weaponry and ammo is very heavy and it's unlikely that a woman can do it for any duration even under fire.
I will admit I also think that women should be able to be in combat, if they so choose, since technology is helping with some of the manual requirements, but my experience with women is that the vast majority will not be able to do it. There were several in our group who were not capable of the physical requirements and that was training and they had signed up for it.
If the draft is instituted we would have to assess whether a particular women would be able to handle a combat situation. And we still need to address the rape issue that is prevalent in every branch of the military, not to mention it will be the first thing to happen if caught by the enemy. We cannot have women with men if men are not going to be responsible for their behaviors. And then what do we do about pregnancy?
Sarah, there's nothing stopping you from enlisting, I enlisted, and if they'll take me, they would love to have you.
And shouldn't that be done with MEN as well?
And??? For the former, that's the MILITARY'S problem and I suspect they will be dealing with it very soon ... and much better than before. For the latter, you have obviously not studied much history or you would know that horriffic things happen to MEN who are POWs as well. There ARE things worse than rape.
Both need to be responssible for behavior. As to the pregnancy issue ... really? The answer is obvious ... medication that regulates the menstrual cycle AND pregnancy.
Lee and Lola should take that up with the Obama supporters who stole the 2008 Democratic Presidential Primary from Hillary Clinton, by keeping elderly white people out of the caucuses in Nevada and Texas.
Unfair is unfair. Wrong is wrong. NOBODY should be forced into ANY form of involuntary servitude.
Damn, Sarah. Impressive lady.
KrjMc-3082425, this is a why to draft older women, who are beyond pregnancy and such. Also, you seem to be unaware that there is medication that shuts down periods to only one every four months.
I'm going to say this again loud and clear for all the posters on here talking about men should get a choice too or women should be forced to register because men have to: NOBODY SHOULD BE FORCED TO REGISTER FOR SELECTIVE SERVICE. NOBODY SHOULD BE FORCED TO SERVE IN THE ARMED FORCES AGAINST THEIR WILL. If any of you want to change that amendment then get with your fellow citizens and petition Congress and the White House. Ghandi said it best: We must be the change we want to see in the world. I would sign a petiton that ended mandatory registering for selective service for males 18-25. I feel they should be given a choice too. I do not think they should have to look at serving jail time, a felony going on their record, nor denied any financial assistance because they chose not to register for selective service. If that petition included all of this, I would gladly sign it and support it. If that meant marching and protesting then I would do that gladly. I am a woman and I feel that way. I have always had a problem with that Amendment. I have always felt that it should be abolished.
sweet --
First, the Selective Service (or registration) is NOT an amendment. Please study your history a bit more.
Second, I think a great many people feel that some sort of service --whether military or civil -- is a GOOD thing. That's especially true if it comes with post-secondary education and is enforced for EVERYONE. Only mental or severe physical deficiencies would be exempt. People would get paid and preliminary training and the discipline it takes to get up and go to work every day.
Good, I have no problem with it.
Absolutely! Then pass the equal rights amendment!
Of all of mankind's inventions, war is the most despicable, most heartrending, most primitive and most savage. There is nothing redeeming about the killing of one's fellow human beings. This scourge was borne on the wings of ancient, male-dominated cultures where the inflicting of pain and suffering was a means to honor. The art of taking... the conquering of other peoples, was an avenue to greatness.
So today, as we see images of dead children in Syria and dead civilians in Afghanistan... as we recall the millions who died in our world wars and all those in between, we celebrate that women can now be placed into harm's way.
Oh yes, this is quite a leap forward... a means to equality; a way for our sisters to learn the science of applying death to their fellow human beings.
Let's have a party and celebrate.
They've already been fighting and dying. This merely acknowledges that.
There's the difference between being in a combat area and being on the line specifically to engage in a firefight. If that escapes you, I suggest a firsthand effort.
That's the difference between modern warfare and WWII. There is no "front line" specifically engaging in a fight. They ALL are, including women. The entire COUNTRY is a combat zone. If you allow women, in any capacity, into the military, they're going into combat. Hence they have been DYING.
If that escapes YOU, I suggest a firsthand effort.
Sarah, you're a bright articulate lady,but unfortunately you suffer from the same lack of grasp that many people suffer from. You assume the next war will be like the last one. History demonstrates that all to often, the next war is dissimilar to the last one. Prior to the first Iraq War, the United States hadn't fought a desert war since World War Two. The same is true with fighting in the mountains of Afghanistan.There's no guarantee where and when the next conflict will happen, so the notion that the next war won't involve large land forces and Main Lines of Resistance is naive at best.
If nothing changes, the odds are that our wars will be small, loculated affairs, utilizing technology and remotely piloted vehicles, but don't count on it.
@ Sarah
You need to hold your tongue when you don't have a clue what you are talking about. There have been a number of women killed in the recent wars but they were not in what you would consider combat roles. Women were allowed to serve in some jobs that took them "outside the wire" from the protection of a military post but their purpose for being in that area was not to be looking for a fight but instead hoping that they did not find one. This applies to the men in those jobs also. Their mission was not a combat mission. Sometimes it would become a combat situation unfortunately, but that was not planned.
There are jobs overseas, however, that involve just that. You spend more time "outside the wire" looking for a fight than you do on a protected base. These are combat jobs. There is a huge difference. You know you are going to be involved in a combat situation because that is the purpose of your mission. This is where true strength is needed, both physical and mental or the casualty count will skyrocket very quickly. There are still front lines, trust me. I've been there. There are people who deploy overseas to fight, and then there are the rest that deploy and hope they never have to. You truly are naive if you believe anything otherwise.
Tom,
I know they've been killed in what we've traditionally called "non-combat" roles. THAT'S MY POINT. There really is no such thing as a non-combat role in modern warfare. HENCE THEY ARE DYING. If something, as YOU say, can BECOME a combat zone, IT'S A COMBAT ZONE. And women should be paid and recognized for that.
Furthermore, if they pass the same standards as men, there's no logical argument, especially in light of the fact that they've ALREADY been fighting, to keep them out.
My personal opinion is that I don't agree that young women should have to sign up for selective service. It all appears that the world is going ONE WORLD ORDER.
You are so right! Many of us don't want our daughters in the military, especially in combat. AND THEY DON'T BELONG THERE! We had to carry the female officer from station to station for the obstacle course at Maxwell AFB in 1990 during Squadron Officers School. She had heat exhaustion, but she was pathetic. I'm glad it was just an exercise and not the real deal. This country gets more screwed up by the day.
Who are you to tell a person where they do or do not belong, because of what body parts they have. If they can't do the job, they don't belong there. I'm definitely not prime material for a combat position, but many of the men I know are worse! I think it is completely hellish of you to expect your son to man up and go risk death for his country, but your daughter's duty is to what? Bear children?
Body parts make a huge difference. Males have more endurance and strength. Argue that all you like, it's basic biology. That said, if a woman really can keep up, more power to her. If not, don't lower the standards, give her the boot or another assignment. I think that's completely rational. There are plenty of support jobs in the military that don't require as much physical demand.
Seems fair. If they want the same rights, they should have the same responsibilities.
"If they want the same rights..." then make it official and pass the Equal Rights Amendment.
Thing is we do not have the same rights. We are paid less for the same jobs, rolled over for promotion by male counter parts even when we are more productive, not respected in the criminal justice system, still more likely to be killed by our "loved ones" then men, and our reproductive systems are still being controlled by men in power.
Tell me exactly where you figure we have the same rights, because we are able to leave the house and get a job or graduate from college.
I agree with most of what you say. If women are doing equal jobs, they should be paid equally, they should be considered for promotions no differently than their male counter parts.
I'm curious what you mean by not being respected in the criminal justice system, and which side of that argument you are speaking to. And I don't understand how your reproductive systems are still being controlled by men in power. A woman's quote "right to choose" has been available for 4 decades now. If you are speaking towards costs of insuring, etc, then when women and men share the same medical issues, then you can speak towards that, when they don't have the same medical issues, you aren't comparing equal issues. And women by nature, have more issues medically than men do. That's not a shot at women, it's just a fact.
I've said earlier that I'm all for equal opportunity, so long as it comes with equal requirements and equal consequences. That's across the board for all sexes, races, ethnic backgrounds, etc.
Because of this, it's partly why I'm not for any government mandating of so-called "equal pay". For me, If you are successful, it's because you earned it, you worked for it, you built it, and sex and race are irrelevant!! I want to see anyone regardless of sex or race have the opportunity to not only make as much for so-called equal work, but make more if your abilities warrant it.
True dat...you cannot burn half of a bra. Sign em up.
@krj - you actually aren't paid less. The statistic you are quoting was junk statistics and completely ignored all the time that women spend out of the labor force. It also omitted life choices that were made (taking a lower paying job with less demands in exchange for a better work life balance). It also omitted all the time that women take off to get kids and so forth. Im not saying men don't too, im saying it's less.
The fact is, many women take a year or two off to raise a kid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this but you must understand that you'll be giving up 2 years of seniority, raises, advancements, etc. If you walk into any corporation today you'll see that many women are promoted faster than men. This really isn't due to ability but rather to correct an imbalance likely caused by when i just listed. Women do see token hiring and preferential treatment. Not acknowledging that would be incredibly naive.
sign them up and then come up with physical requirements that are unisex. Then you will have some equality.
Why come up with new unisex requirements?
Requirements should be based upon the job itself. Gender should be of no issue. Male or female, if you can't meet the requirements of the job, you aren't capable of obtaining the job.
Changing any requirements based on sex, race, or any other reasons other than what a specific job requires, only weakens the chain, particularly in the military.
Because, Dougler, when you draft people you're taking grunts to put on the ground in combat. Some support positions as well, of course, but primarily combat troops.
I know of no commander that would ever put weak links into combat, simply to put "grunts on the ground".
Doing so weakens everyone around them!! They take seriously the lives of the people around them, your assertion is baseless!
I don't see nothing wrong with it..as long as they are going to do it the same way they did in last draft ( I was drafted). I doubt they do it same way..goes by birthday with a lottery style pick up to so many numbers.
My birthday was picked at number 34 (back in 1969) and I believe they only went up to 108 numbers out of 365 numbers (dates).
So if your birthday fell on one of those 108 picks..its two years in Nam..unless rich and going to college.
Bet it be two lottery drafts (male and female) if a draft is ever needed in the future!
My bad..been so long I forgot..the highest number went up to 195 not 108 to be drafted.
Here is the list from 1969 draft lottery..you see my number 34 now you know my birthday also so send me a card.LOL
http://www.calledtoservevietnam.com/blog/information-about-the-vietnam-era-draft/the-results-of-the-first-draft-lottery-dec-1-1969/
mike277
In the late 1960's the lottery was instituted so that everyone registered for the Draft was subjected to the risk of having to serve (in Vietnam). College students were drafted whereas prior to the lottery they could be given a draft deferment. Even graduate students at places like Harvard were drafted, if their numbers were low. Whether you were called or not was also influenced by how much your individual Draft Board was able to fill its quota with volunteers. Thank you for serving. I'm sorry you had to go.
Vietnam was, at least partially, lost by draftees. My number never came up, but I knew at least three guys whose did and stating that they could not bring themselves to kill spent their time purposely missing their shots when they had to shoot at all. One of them didn't come home. Don't get me wrong, Vietnam was also lost by mismanagement, because it was a poor cause and because it had poor support at home. It never bothered me that George W. Bush avoided the draft. He didn't want to be there, really nobody did. Vietnam did not excite patriotic fervor in anyone save for those who somehow got it in their heads that it was a great crusade.
@Eoanthropus..I disagree with what you said "Vietnam was, at least partially, lost by draftees".
They stopped our lives in our tracks no matter what you were doing in your life if you were a 1-A....not a college guy with 2-S on his draft card!
Its the military who did it wrong not draftees back then..we were for only two years..how the hell can you learn all that and fight in a war in two years and live?
A two year enlistment (drafted) meant, basic training and some small amount of technical school like advanced infantry training or other training artillery school, drivers, medics etc. They gave 90days for basic training and a few week for the other special training...not much time there, also they gave you a couple weeks for R&R before you left for Nam.
So with that little of training and going overseas to fight in a jungle for a tad over year was a mistake by our leaders not the draftees.
We did what our nations law said 'to serve our country' and not be place in prison if we refused!
If any fault..blame Westmoreland..he's the one who said its all under control!
Tue 1/29/13 Well I'll be Damned ! I was DRAFTED JULY 21st,1969 BEFORE the Nation Wide Lottery Military Draft occured on Dec. 1st,1969. My Draft Number would have been 248 ! I never would have been Drafted. @!$%# oh Dear. Talk about being in the Wrong Place at the Wrong Time
35,000 Single American Males were Drafted into Military Service, USArmy & US Marine Corp per month nation-wide. 70% of Military Veterans during "The Nam" were Draftees.
Not Once Not Ever did my fellow Airborne Warriors fail to complete assigned Fire Missions On Time & On Target. & those Airborne Warriors were Draftees Airborne All the Way SPW
This has got to scare the hell out of the terrorists.. OMG!
Good. Most single young women voted for this a-whole, now let them register for him. Just one more group that supported obama only to be shafted by him.
You're assuming "most single women" will be opposed to this! If you read the story, it's women who are primarily advocating for this! A lot of paternalistic men are the one's against it. People on this board need to stop assuming women don't want to take on their fair share, they do!
Jed; If you read the posts you will see that most of those that say it is wrong are women not men....
The men are all saying it is about time, if men have to then so should the women, just as long as the standards are not lowered for the women.
I know for a fact that not all men can pass the physical to be in a combat unit and neither will all of the women but guess what? they have more than just combat positions in the military so, those who are not fit enough to be in a combat unit can be cooks or mechanics or med techs or administrative techs there are a lot of jobs in the military,
Warren - Is a bullet fired from from a woman rifle any different than the bullet from a man's rifle?
No! so it really wouldn't make much difference to a terrorist now would it?
STFU and have a nice day!
Yes, it misses. kidding, you just tee'd it all up for me.
A platoon of armed Marines with PMS - problem solved. Ooh rah!
--proud woman vet
Haha nice one! Guess there would be one week of the month when the terrorists would not come out of their caves.
The "right" to be eligible for selective service? Sort of like saying you have the "right" to pay taxes. If a man doesn't register, he's punished.
If the law about registration isn't changed, sooner or later some man who doesn't register and gets rejected for a government job or financial aid because of it will sue. If Congress doesn't act, the courts will have to.
I had all sorts of problems with my college financial aid because I started college before I turned 18 (and I'm a guy). I had to prove to the finanical aid people that I was legally allowed to be unregistered (Selective Service will not accept an early registration as far in advance as I would have needed to) before they would release the funds from my first semester's financial aid... then they held up the second semester until they received proof of my registration. All because my 18th birthday was in December of my freshman year of college.
The sad part is that I went through all that KNOWING that if I'd been a girl, it would never have been an issue. Yet this was in the aftermath of the first Gulf War - when there WERE women in the armed forces in combat areas (though not in combat jobs), such as driving water tankers in Saudi.
All will be fine & dandy, until more women in uniform find themselves in some Third-World Islamic country that captures, rapes, and tortures female troops.
THEN the cry in America will become 'how did we let this happen to our women'?
Ahh, but it's okay for our son's to be captured and tortured when drafted?
Don't kid yourself - women are raped and tortured everyday at home in America, and so far, no one is out crying "how did we let this happen to our women?". Women are already fighting in warzones...at home.
spin,
Spot on!
Homie - Torture of our soldiers male or female is equally horrifying. I would make no distinction or feel any worse if it was a woman being tortured or a man.
By they way they are not "our" women. They are not possessions. Once you realize that you may start to understand equal rights
I believe there will be alot of problems with this. While i see no issue of the equality portion of it i do believe you will find people married both getting called in. They will have to add some new rules to this or if a draft occurs we will have a country of parentless children! Their should be a clause added that if one parent is drafted the other should not be while they have children under 18 in the home. We cannot leave a nation of children to be raised by strangers and or grandparents who are too old to actually care for them. So if they want this fine no problem, but make a few stipulations so that we can protect things other than our country like our children that are going to be left behind.
Yep! and how many good men would let their wives get drafted (if they didn't want to go) and then let them be forced to go fight on the front lines? "0" Good luck with that...
in cases like that then the woman should be drafted and sent to the front lines. men have been dying for this country since its inception. time for women to experience combat up close and personal. you go girl.
Henry that is sexist! It should be a choice between the family members! Let the husband and wife decide or choose whom evers number was called up first! Let us not forget we women will always have the ability you men do not! We can give birth! Also let us keep in mide how much men like to have such a wide choice in partners to choose to have children with. Get rid of too many women there will be a hell of alot of lonely men unless you plan on snuggling up to other men..... hmmm something to think about don't you think!
Dual active duty parents already deal with this, it's nothing new. For those who think it would not be right, suck it up many of us have served careers in the military.
I don't see anything sexist about Henry's post there Fiesty. He said it in a nasty way, but he's 100% correct.
So you think it would be ok to have both mother and father called up for duty and possibly killed at war with small children being left and cared for by others when they are drafted and it is not their choice? Im sorry i see an issue with that! If you both serve and choose to do that then so be it but to be called up in a draft with out a choice is very different! Choice compared to force will have direct effects on how people view our country as well as how commited people will be to defending it! This is suppose to be a free country where we have choices not nazi germany where we are born and bred to do as we are told! So give that some thought before you decide. Last i checked i was a free citizen who PAYS taxes and WORKS just as hard as many others, not to mention while i support those women who want to do their part i never claimed they speak for me! You can FORCE ME to do all of those things when you pay me dollar for dollar what a man makes! Until then do not bother because i work harder to make less!
of course this should be done, equality isnt something you get to pick and choose depending in whether it benefits you or not. Either you're all in or you're all out.
"“If you are going to say ‘total equality’..." Then pass the friggin Equal Rights Amendment. And how many young men still sign up for selective service? I dare say MANY don't cuz they don't know they're supposed to.
to most men (who were raised right) protection of women is engraved into us. Even if you look at nature you will see the same thing. It takes a bunch of re-programming (by being raised wrong) to counter such a natural instinctive trait. As for "our women" give me a break you know exactly what he/she was talking about. We often say "our young men"...
I think this should happen as a Veteran myself, I have seen many other countries where young women mandatory serve for the first two years after secondary school. (Young men do too). I think it would give our young women that sense of patriotic pride instead of "yeah whatever" attitutude most have these days. Also give them self worth, as it did me. I view the military as an honorable organization to be in and forever will be a part of who I am and my belief in this country.
The feminist freaks have done enough damage to society as it is. My daughter will NEVER sign up for selective service. Not ever! Military industrial complex is nothing but a sleazy dark world business. Non commissioned service members are thrown into messes and too many come out all messed up in the head, lost and wandering. Feminist freaks want to go out and jump into combat, more power to them.
Selective service registration should be eliminated for everyone. Conscripts, particularly ones who *really* don't want to be there do more harm than good. A truly dedicated volunteer military, even if small, is better than one swollen with people who have no desire to serve.
Currently, it's just registration. Nobody has actually been drafted since the mid-1970s. And as someone who was forced to register in '95... (you can't collect any federal financial aid for college unless you do, and I had some snags with mine because I started college before I turned 18)... I thought even then that it was unfair that women don't register.
this is pure BS that everyone should have seen coming with this "women in combat" crap...i have no problem letting my son sign up - as a matter of fact, i hope he DOES proudly serve this country like his father has and does...my daughter on the other hand - absolutely not!!! there are enough men in this country to do a MAN'S work - we don't need the women TRYING to do a man's job...this is absolutely ridiculous!!!! congrats to all the women that wish they were born with a penis....
boo hoo.That's so mean!!!!!
So, any woman that joins the military doesn't really want to serve her country. She's only doing it because she's trying to act like a man and wishes she has a penis.
Wow, just wow....
it's the man's job to hunt and the woman's job to prepare it...didn't mean to hurt any sensitive one's feelings...equality doesn't mean exact...there are things meant for men and things meant for women...we have equal responsiblities that may differ according to gender...fighting on the front lines and a mandatory sign up are not one of those meant for women...this ISN'T Israel - yet...when we have to walk out our front doors worrying about where mortars or bombs are coming from, then this should be considered...
Who says its a man's job to hunt and a women's to fix it? Who set up those rules and who says they are fair or right or equal?
Sounds like a set up about men and for men, just like most everything.
Did you ask us what we wanted to do or did you just tell us under the threat of death/beatings?
So that whole glass ceiling thing is over and equality in the workplace passe', affirmative action is waste paper and college will be for young men? Who needs a degree to clean a toilet. You don't get to pick and choose what elements you want and those that you pass on.
Nice to see that you think so little of your sons you don't mind having them killed but think your daughters should be exempted. If there are to be equal rights, then there need to be equal responsibilities.
How many of the poor boys sent to Nam wanted to avoid going also?
If there are going to be wars, then everyone should have to serve - men and women. A truly universal draft would prevent a lot of wars for profit like Iraq.
How do you know that a "truly universal" draft would prevent wars "for profit"? In what way would that prevent it? You don't really know, do you?
Now this is going over board! It's one thing to let women join the army if they want to and another to force them. I greatly appreciate the women in the army but i honestly would never join. I have never been an advocate of complete equality for both men and women. We are Women we give birth and our boobs actually have a purpose, to feed our young. We are sensative creatures and we need special treatment :).
Many countries have mandatory service for both genders. Fair is fair. Just because you own a vagina doesn't mean you should be treated any differently.
And Nolan this the USA! We are not other countries nor should we be other countries. And another thing we should not implement other countries policies into our policies. This is exactly why we have our own Constitution and it should remain that way. This is why we are America and is completely different from other countries. We should always have freedom of choice. We should always be allowed to choose. America should never be like any other country than itself. America should only be America. It is a free country and it should always be a free country.