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A Christian school in Thousand Oaks, Calif., is suing two former teachers who threatened a lawsuit over the school's requirement to provide proof of faith.
When the Godspeak Church bought Little Oaks Elementary in 2009, it started requiring employees to fill out questionnaires that asked whether they attended church, which church they attended and what the pastor had to say about their beliefs.
"We do believe their personal rights were violated," said the teachers' attorney, Dawn Coulson.
Coulson said Lynda Serrano and Mary Ellen Guevara received their questionnaires last summer. After they refused to fill out the form, they were not rehired. The teachers then filed paperwork saying they intended to sue.
The school's attorney, Rick Kahdeman, said the church exercised its constitutional right to freedom of religion. He said that trumps any claim the teachers may have under state equal employment laws.
"The teachers chose not to [fill out the paperwork], and they knew it was a condition of employment," Kahdeman said.
Coulson contends that California's employment laws protect her clients, in part, because the school northwest of Los Angeles was purchased by a church as a for-profit entity, not a nonprofit. She said employers can't require such questionnaires as a basis for employment, even if they are churches.
"That would be like the church buying shares in IBM, and IBM saying, 'We can now discriminate, based on religion,'" Coulson said.
"That issue is totally irrelevant because the rights of the school come from the First Amendment to the Constitution," Kahdeman countered.
Kahdeman is suing the two teachers and their attorneys in federal court.
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If the teachers are uncomfortable with the questionnaire they should be given notice....a reasonable separation... and then everyone should go on their merry way. I've worked around "Christian Schools" and some of them do a decent job of educating , however....some, (maybe MOST) put a lot more of their time in teaching religion than traditional education. I for one would never send my children to a Religious School during there formative years. If I want them exposed to religious teachings, I'll take them to church.
Any of you that think Churches and Church Schools are "Not for Profit" are delusional. Organized religion can not exist without Money.
Ask the Mormon church how much money it has. Then wonder about that "Not for Profit" thing.
I can see the requirement for a teacher who is primarily teaching religious belief, but not for any others.
The ability to "teach" the dogma has not one thing to do with the "faith" of the teacher.
Send your kids to this "school" and produce a generation of clueless bigots that think Spiderman walked with dinosaurs 2000 years ago.
Yeah, the public school system of indoctrination is working SO well.
Private employers generally can fire people without to much cause. However, "Under federal law, it is illegal for employers to fire an employee because of the employee's race, gender, national origin, disability, religion or age (so long as the employee is at least 40 years old)." Findlaw In this case the church is claiming the teachers were fired for not filling out paperwork, not their religious beliefs. In my opinion that argument is legal BS because the real reason was religion.
Sadly, many of the original colonies that led to the US, were founded by religious people who fled Europe in order to practice their religion in a place with the freedom to persecute others. That mentality of religious intolerance is evident in many fundamentalist religions today.
Employers should not try to impose their religious beliefs and practices on their employees.
I pray to God that this school gets their ass handed to them by the Courts.
Glenn 7:16 A.m. Do you even know what a socialist is? Look up Socialism in the dictionary and see how stupid you are. By the way, even church run schools have to meet state education standards and methods.
Socialism = government owned and managed, production and distribution
and at the bottom it refers see Communism
how does that relate to our Government? please enlighten me with your god given wisdom .....lol
I'd have to refer you to Obama and his Czars on this one
Mr. Beck is not a Teabagger, Kevin, he's crazier than that.
Glenn; My point exactly. It is a monitary system and NOT a form of government. Communism is also a monitary system and not a form of government. Capitolism is a monitary system and not a form of government. Socialism, think of roads, bridges, water systems, sewer systems, and all things owned and run by the government for the common good because private ownership of these services would be impratical and a monopoly.
Yes I am.... I'm a original Constitutionalist.
PhillyKevin : I see no need to explain to you. You'll have to do the research
JustMe : like Obamacare?
We are taking your guns soon, Glenn
i'd rather the schools required teachers to be able to teach-leave the faith and hocus pocus to churches and sunday schools. and kids of many denominations attend various private schools. no catholic school is staffed and attended exclusively by catholics, and so on.
the questionnaire is intrusive. the math (or whatever subject) teacher should be well-versed in math, not the bible...
Why is an organization like that allowed to exist? Let alone, why would anyone want to work for it? Don't we have enough hate, ignorance, and intolerance already?
We will always have hate, intolerance and ignorance. I see plenty of it here.
Yes, we do. And the "tolerant", "loving", and "enlightened" progressives are the worst offenders.
Just try disagreeing with a "progressive" and you will see what I mean.
the cheese just slid off the Phillykevin2
The school is in the right. The teachers new the conditions of their employment they chose to violate them, so the school chose not to rehire them.
So, should the bedrooms of the school's admin be monitored to insure they ONLY have sex for procreation?
What if the school came up with a new "condition of employment" that you must be a white male to teach? (woman should stay home, in their eyes..)
The teachers knew the conditions of employment and then the church bought the school and changed the conditions.
okie. When they were hired, the condition didn't exist. Not to mention it's also an illegal condition!
So thats what this story means to you Herron? interesting
Corey. And this story DOESN'T mean that to you? Should your employer be free to probe any aspect of your private life they choose?
Should your employer be free to not hire women, since they think the woman should just stay at home?
Private life no, and they are not. They were asking about their religious preferences thats all. Nothing about their SSS behavior, or thier color.
Corey. Religion is part of their PRIVATE life.
This is the issue that the "religious" have trouble grasping!
As a for profit business, the school does not have a leg to stand on. The Equal Employment Opportunity Act prohibits discrimination based on religion. I do hope they are sued out of business.
but how do we know if the teachers even are religious?
Corey. Being an atheist is a choice that an an employer is NOT free to probe into! What if the teacher was a convert to the church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
So what if they are? The school could have just as well fired them for that I suppose.
No, Corey, the school could not have fired them for that. A business, which this school is, CANNOT discriminate based on gender, color, religion, etc.
This lawsuit is frivolous and pointless. A private school should be able to hire teachers with the beliefs and morals that are consistent with their mission. Parents are paying alot of money to send their kids to these private schools and ought to be able to depend upon the fact that the teachers they are paying for actually believe the stuff they are teaching - and that they are good role models for their children according to their beliefs. This would be like telling Notre Dame it had to hire a Muslim Theology Professor, or a multi-ethnic school that they would have to hire a really fundamentalist Christian teacher would believed in white supremacy.
Even if this lawsuit were to pass muster because of the school's for-profit status, I would think the school would just changeover to be a 501(c)(3) religous school
They are probably getting tax benefits. In many states, donating to private (even for profit) schools is a tax credit.
Employment laws are blind of religion - as it should be!
Not if some lawyer can make money.
David, the Constitution alows for you the free practice of your religion, or to completely ignore religion all together. The Church, when operating a for profit buisiness, has to follow the the same anti-discrimination laws as any other buisisness. You dont get to ask gays about their sexual orientation, and you dont get to disciminate against women, men or seniors (age).
Jack - I guess what I am saying is that being a good role model and teaching Christian faith and values are part of the teacher's job description. If the school was hiring a custodian then perhaps a requirement that they sign of statement of faith is irrelevant to their job description and duties. Likewise Chick-fil-a is a for-profit company, even though their owner is a Christian. The job description is customer service and how well you can make chicken sandwiches. It would be unfair to discriminate on the basis of faith in such a job hire.
David, am at a loss, please enlighten--what are Christian values? Clearly the Christ's admonishments have taken a beating of late with the continued vilification of the least of ours.
Regarding Chik-Fil-A--prospective employers (franchisees) do not require a religious affiliation as an employment requirement, nor are the employees asked to dispense religious homilies with chicken wrap.
A for profit religious entity, taxed by the state and the feds is required to follow employment regulations, questionnaire clearly an invasion into private belief system.
Render Unto Caesar, and all that.
skyparrot - This school has a vision, and attracts children whose parents want that vision for their kids. The school hires teachers who are in agreement with that vision, and can serve as teachers and role models within that vision. If it was a montessori school they would have a diffrent vision, and they would expect their teachers to be good guides to their vision.
From the school's website the following is part of this school's vision:
And there's no problem with that, as long as they're not making money from it! Once they cross that line, they have to abide by the LAWS, not tenets!
I see a wonderful opportunity to pay down the national debt. Start taxing all these free loading religious entities.
I own a small business and taxes are what stands between just getting by and having extra cash to take my kids on vacations each year.
Meanwhile the local church has coffers full of tax free money that allows them to pay the pastor 80,000 per year. They recently hired a consultant for 75,000 to help them figure out how to squeeze more out of the members of the church.
Tax these organizations please Mr. President we have had enough in the small business sector.
Real "Christian" of the school.... The teachers only threatened to sue, so the "church" turns around and sues them. The church is clearly in the wrong. I swear, if I had ultimate power, I'd crush all these friggin' religions. The rapture can't happen soon enough - get these lunatics outa here.
the teachers have a lawyer they are sueing.
Corey. the school has another lawyer and is sueing the teachers.
Mutton Jeff, I agree with you. I can't wait for the rapture as I have my eye on some of my neighbors' stuff when they leave. One of my neighbors just bought a new rididng lawn mower.
A Christian School that wants to make sure their teachers are Christians.... GO FIGURE
How are they going to teach Christ if they honestly do not believe....
Good call on the churches part
Marine, do kids ONLY learn religion at this school, or do they teach math, reading, history, and other things?
Well, I'd bet "science" isn't on the plate in this school. Unless it involves fairy tales!
Marine, it just can't be right to teach the stupidest story ever told (Mary's lie to Joseph, Son of God, rose from the dead, etc.) as truth to gullible little minds. I still resent the bastards who tried to pull that on me, especially when it was so obvious that they were pig ignorantly ignoring and twisting the reputed words of the Christ character and making the terms of their 'salvation' fit their own fears, doubts and insecurities, and feeding their hungers for worldly gods/things.
Some folks believe some do not... who are we to decide what they teach over and above Reading Writing, and Math. Nobody is forcing parents to send their kids here.
If I am hiring a Science teacher I want to make sure they are qualified. If I am hiring a welder I want to make sure they are qualified... so since this is a CHRISTIAN SCHOOL and parents are paying money to have their kids educated in a Christian school... doesn't the school have an obligation to ensure their teachers are qualified and the parents are getting what they paid for
We are the taxpayers and the free citizens of a free society. Our choices are to be kept in our personal lives and our responsibilities are to everyone else. When you are an openly public, for-profit entity, you cannot discriminate against employees or clients, based on any personal choices!
The fact that the teachers have the knowledge of the subject matter has not one thing to do with how they, themselves adhere to it, unless it is VOLUNTARY. It is no business of the school to demand that requirement.
And what if a college or university was looking to hire a teacher for the science department and they asked if the applicant went to church and believed in god because they felt that believing in god would make them an unsuitable teacher of science?
Marine, I was brought up in what fancied itself to be a Christian church (that said, if we define a Christian as one who IS following the fabled Christ character, in all of my 58 years, I've never met one) and though I was having serious doubts about it all as I got into my teens, I still believed very much in 'freedom of religion' to where at 17 I enlisted in the Army in 3/71 to go and fight for it, or, so I thought thats what we were doing in Nam, only to be treated like someone worse than a rapist for 'failure to believe' years later, well, I just no longer believe in 'freedom of religion'. I see the Christian faith as having, with the careful help of, not 'the devil', but the bastards who find stupid sheeple profitable as consumerists, and easily lead around by their noses into profitable war mongering, turned American into the largest moral cesspit in the history of mankind. The Jesus Tale is the stupidest story ever told and it should be illegal to pass that stupidity onto gullible little minds.
Why are religions given greater rights than other groups? A political school wouldn't be able to ask your political affiliation. Typical of religious fanatics that say it's their way or the highway.
If the teachers religion influenced their ability to teach then this would be fine, but religions can only impair a good teacher when trying to teach the "facts".
I am guessing that if the school was geared towards teaching "Democratic or republican" doctrine they would want a Democratic or a republic respectfully.
Facts - Can you explain to me how a single cell "first life" (abiogenesis) came to be that had the ability to find food, intake food, digest food, process food, expel food, and had the ability to reproduce? Frankly, that is my biggest hold back to evolution and chance.
I have no problem with evolution within a kind (species) but one kind turning into a second DIFFERENT kind....
I'd like to get those church officials on polygraph and ask them some pointed questions about their religion/faith.
Or, at least have them prove their faith by getting into a pit of cobras.
I'm going away now. Happy tales to all of you.
One wonders how these "Christian" school administrators' opinions might change if, for example, they worked for a corporation which was purchased by a Muslim (or atheist) dominated group who sought to impose THEIR religious preferences upon their new employees. Not everyone is in position to simply abandon their jobs and retirement plans so easily.
Most (particularly excellent) educators follow their talents and aspirations into that profession rather than their religious affiliations. Unfortunately, many doctrinaire “Christian” schools put (religious) dogma above education. That’s why many often attract students unable to compete elsewhere.
The ethics and logic here are fairly easy. Unfortunately, due to our nation’s historical, and purely emotional, deference to (particularly “Christian”) religious organizations, the law is not so easy.
In this case the teacher's job description is to be a teacher / role model of Christian faith and values. To ask for a statement of faith is logical and consistent. If they were hiring an accountant, I would agree that a statement of faith would be irrelevant.
If Christian schools lack the basics WHY do so many turn out higher achieving students and better math, science, english scores??????
Marine-1981.......
First, many private (religious) schools are exempt from state mandated standardized tests. So, we don't always know how they compare (academically).
Second, private (religious) school students are filtered by their parents' ability to pay the many thousand$ in tuition and fees. This means that such private school students often also benefit from private tutors, educational excursions, small class sizes, and the various other preparatory benefits NOT enjoyed by our ordinary American families.
Third, certainly not ALL private schools excel academically. Many are mere dumping grounds for students expelled from and/or unable to progress in other (esp. public) schools.
Those who wish to stunt their children's philosophical growth by imposing a "canned" religious dogma upon them rather than allowing them to seek their OWN relationship with God are, in this country, free to do so. But, they should be tightly controlled concerning their ability to impose their beliefs upon the rest of us (either through education or employment).
Because the majority of "Christian" schools are Roman Catholic and they teach religion separate from the sciences, but cover both, in full.
Every study I can find shows that private religious schools outperform public schools in testing and academic achievement.
While money may be a factor in the parents ability to send their kids to school I think the greater factors are that private schools will not put up with the disruptions allowed in public schools and while many have Christian teaching.... they do not add in the other CRAP that is finding its way into public school..
Do we really need to teach "Billy has two moms" or have gay history books.
While some private schools may not be beating the public schools..... the VAST majority are.
A voucher program would be a great thing.... that would allow parents to decide where their kids get to use the tax dollar. Many non-religious folks send their kids to religious schools...WHY... a better education, more disciplined atmosphere, overall better results... and in the big picture they do it most times for LESS money...
Average public school is around $10,615 a kid
Average private school is around $4,000
Some private schools and public schools are more for sure... but those are averages
Marine-1981........you said:
Maybe, you don't have any first-hand experience with private schools.
You will be hard pressed to find a decent private school that charges less than $700 per month (pro-rated over 12 months = $8,400). That's just the TUITION. Fees and other charges can easily move it into the $10,000 range.
Likewise, if you have ever had a child in a private "religious" school, you will be aware that a significant number of children there have various sorts of behavioral problems that either caused their parents to seek a "sheltered" environment or gave them no choice but to find other academic opportunities that were more "forgiving".
There are some fine private schools. Some are "faith-based", many are not. It is not possible to generalize about either. Each school must be analyzed upon its own merits.
SCHOOL is for EDUCATION. CHURCH is for RELIGION. Most folks don't take their kids to a dentist for visual problems. Any "school" that selects teachers based upon their religious preferences rather than their ability to TEACH is not a school which should be expected to provide the highest quality education.
do you not know darth maul from star wars?
I don't understand such hostility toward Christians of late. People who are members of a minority group whether it be race, sexual orientation or whatever, demand equal rights and want to live and let live; but only when it comes to their agenda. Why, if a Christian school or private organization such as the BSA can't they have guidelines, standards or rules? Why must they be bullied into embracing something they do not believe in? I think it is very hypocritical and dangerous for folks to demand rights and equality for their little group, but ignore rights and equality to other groups. I went to Catholic schools during my youth, though we weren't not Catholic. One of the stipulations was the entire family attending Mass once a month. We knew this upfront, thus we attended Mass once a month in exchange for my receiving a quality education. Folks, why must everything be a fight, an issue? Why must we as a people attempt to change people into believing as we do and if they do not immediately start with the name calling and accusations of being a racist, homophobe, etc.? Imagine, you people who don't want others to believe in a god, or who take issue with homosexuality, you people who claim to not have one bias bone in your body and see every single person as your equal, what if others came around to how you supposedly believe; what then would be your purpose in life? Imagine, then you would have nothing to *itch about or to act so self-righteously and act as if you are so freaking more evolved than others!!! You preach live and let live, how about you try that as well!!!!!! Lastly, all you folks making all these demands for others to change, how about you use that energy and instead create schools and organizations that coincide with your beliefs instead of forcing existing schools and organizations to change to accomodate you. God bless America!!!
Looks like their brainwashing worked pretty well on you.
Why would anyone want to teach in a xtian madrassa? If you are incapable of critical thinking, believe in the hogwash dogma they feed you without question, and have the IQ of a fencepost, then you might want to. Proving your total belief in a philosophy based on mindless gibberish and non-existent deities just to get a stupid job in a stupid school should be enough to get you involuntarily committed.
You are exactly who I am talking about!!! Ease up on the self-righteousness why don't you!!!
You can no more prove the non-existence of God then I can prove the existence of him. To badmouth people who believe in God as being "stupid" is quite ignorant. I am sure that Aquinas would eat up Christopher Hitchens for lunch in a philosophical debate about the existence of God, I am sure that Einstein (believer in a Creator Non-Personal God, but nonetheless God) would likewise eat Nietsche up as well.
Nor can I prove that anything you can think of "doesn't exist". But please tell me you wouldn't make fun of a 35 year old who believed in the Easter Bunny and was disappointed every year when he didn't show?
Sparrow - the fact is that there are logical arguments for the existence of God, and against it. While you can't prove it one way or the other, it doesn't make it stupid. Likewise there are good arguments for the existence of intelligent life on other planets (Arguments from probability), and good arguments the other way (Rare Earth Hypothesis). I am of the latter persuasion, but I don't go around calling people who believe that intelligent aliens exist on other planets "stupid". I can't recall ANY logical arguments for the existence of the Easter Bunny.
And there are good arguments for the Easter Bunny, what's your point? And if the arguments for "faith" were logical, they wouldn't require faith! You fail on all counts! Grow up and become the adult you were born to be!
Do tell Sparrow!!! Enlighten me with your philosophical discourse proving the existence of the Easter Bunny. I am all ears! Lol :)
I didn't say I believed in the Easter Bunny, I said a 35 year old man, I'm neither. This is in a book my great-grandmother handed down to our family, but I always knew it to be a fairy tale.
But this 35 year old family member has the original family copy, with all of the generations and he takes every word on faith. He doesn't have to give an argument for it's existence, playing by your rules. It tells him what to do, and that if he listens, he'll get a basket on Easter morning. He's never gotten one yet, but it's because he hasn't listened to what the Easter Bunny has instructed him to do! He's trying really hard to be a good egg, but no egg is perfect! And the fact that he has knowingly disobeyed the Easter Bunny is directly in line with his experience of never getting a basket, thus proving the Easter Bunny exists!
Now prove the Easter Bunny doesn't exist.
Oh, and guess what? One night, while he was sleeping, mourning the loss of a friend, he felt this paw caress his face softly and when he opened his eyes, all he could see was a pink cloud! It was his personal experience, so prove it didn't happen.
You ought to hear his account of creation! Wow, it's pretty amazing! Let me know if you'd like to hear it, I'll borrow the book!
If it is a private school it should have the right to hire teachers that fulfill certain standards and beliefs. That is why parents pay to send their children there. If your belief is not real why would you want to teach there in the first place? Go to a public system where they do not care what people believe.
It is FOR PROFIT, and therefore subject to many state and federal laws.
This is a "new condition".
Can YOU just freely quit your job and get another one today? Let's say your job required that you go to a mosque on friday nights!
So what you are saying is if I don't wish my personal religious beliefs exposed, I cannot teach a subject like science? Oh, wait a minute, I couldn't teach science there unless I put Adam and the tree in there. I can't believe anyone is so illiterate that they don't believe in evolution. No wonder we're going down the tubes.
http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/religion.html#_Toc203359492
Religious organizations are exempt. they are allowed to give preference to members of their own religion. This is Straight from the EEOC.
This is a FOR PROFIT school. The rules change due to that!
Sorry for the late Reply but if you read the EEOC reg it states that "Although no one factor is dispositive..."
Meaning the determination of weather or not an employer can claim it is a religious organization is not determinant, one way or the other, on one factor.
Just read the reg.
Wait a sec, doesn't one have faith specifically because one has no proof?
It's the Church of How to Take a Religion of Peace and Tolerance and Turn It into a Religion of Exclusion
well it is a Christian school... should they be forced to allow muslim teachers or atheists teachers