hope the kid is returned safe to his family. This guy sure sounds like he deserved to be a gun owner. Firing weapons at neighbors and killing bus drivers to kidnap a child into being a pawn in their twisted paranoid head about how evillll and terrible the government is.

I pray that that boy gets out of that hole, but I wish they would leave that bastard down there and just fill it in.

Background checks for all, no exceptions, and maybe some day it will be much harder for someone like this nutcase to get guns. Yes, I know we can likely never get rid of all the illegal guns and get them out of the hands of all the bad people but I see no reason at all for not having full background checks starting asap. What a horrible thing for this boy and his family to go through. I hope he get's released safe and sound very soon.

What makes you think there was anything that would have prevented this man from getting a gun if he had submitted to a background check?

@n;sldil

Come and take them.

The problem here that you are trying to hijack for your comments is a mentally disturbed person, just like every one of the incidents that you've heard of this year. So please come and take mine if you think you can, but recognize that the issue here is an issue of mental sickness and of your society ignoring the needs of the mentally disturbed.

Moose - what did I write? Read it again and try comprehension. I clearly said it was not a total solution, but I still think it should be mandatory. There should be no sales like those that are done today at gun shows to anybody who walks in off the street.

Kevin D. I agree with that totally. The do it in Israel from what I've read, but then again, it's also much, much harder for a civilian to get a permit for a gun in Israel. If we could require a review and repermitting every couple of years that would be even better. Hell you have to go through more red tape to keep your drivers license than to own a gun.

Would you lose your ability to vote also? How about your right to free speech? Rights are inherent in human beings, not granted by some governing entity, therefore legitimate government has no right to force people to prove their mental competence in order to grant them rights. Once a government decided who has rights, and who doesn't, then it is no longer a legitimate form of government, but an oppressor.

@ kevin D

If you want to go there then I also suggest a test every 2 years for a drivers license regardless of age in addition to the same requirements for your home loan for your approval for mortgage, your citizenship verification, your ability to purchase alcohol by a mental test, same for purchasing tobacco if you happen to be a user, testing your for high triglicerydes (sp) to allow you to purchase fast foods,

SHALL WE CONTINUE?

If police are negotiating with Dykes through a PVC pipe. Why couldn't they drop some knock out gas to get them out?

So what the hardcore gun people are still saying is that we should change absolutely nothing. Do nothing at all to stop all of these senseless crimes and murders. Everything is just fine the way it is. That's great. Perfect solution.

"Why couldn't they drop some knock out gas to get them out?"

....and what if the guy said that if anything comes down this pipe, I blow the kids brains out! ??

How does that solve the other rather simple to understand problem which is that the victims are still DEAD.?

Because any other method violates the entire foundation of our legal system that states EVERYONE is equal and innocent until PROVEN guilty.

"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it." -- George Santayana

"Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of citizens to keep and bear arms ... THE RIGHT OF THE CITIZENS TO BEAR ARMS IS JUST ONE GUARANTEE AGAINST ARBITRARY GOVERNMENT, one more safeguard, against the tyranny which now appears remote in America BUT WHICH HISTORICALLY HAS PROVEN TO BE ALWAYS POSSIBLE." -- Hubert H. Humphrey {Liberal Democratic Senator

"It's a nasty truth, but those who seek to inflict harm are not fazed by gun control laws. I happen to know this from personal experience." -- Ronald Reagan

I think you missed my point but I'm not surprised.

I do not believe this was a random act as Rep. Steve Clouse stated. It might not have been planned very well, but it worked. Maybe this is "get back" thing. I stll can not get over the fact that the people who knew him, didn't spak out sooner. If these bad things he has done an the threats he flung out at these people and their families have been filed as a complaint, but as usual, "you have to wait till they hurt you or kill some" had been taken seriously by law inforcement, or else Rep. Clouse needs to start getting the laws changed in alabama, they are as old as the civil war. The bad thing about this part of Alabama is that, most every knows each other, grew up together, went to school together, the whole nine yards and they are not going to get involved, until samething effects them. Been there and done that.

"If these bad things he has done an the threats he flung out at these people and their families have been filed as a complaint, but as usual, "you have to wait till they hurt you or kill some" had been taken seriously by law inforcement,"

That's right. It's ridiculous that nothing was done sooner if the stories are true, but others on this thread would tell you that the guy was just exercising his free speech and nothing should have been done. However, it's also true that these things have also happened and people who knew the perpetrator said stuff like 'oh he would never have hurt a fly', etc. Sometimes you can see them coming, sometimes you can't.

Michelle, sweety,

How does your point of view solve anything? If this nutjob didn't have a gun you can bet your liberal voting card that he would have used a knife. Are you prepared to take away all the blades in the US or are you just trying to light a fire under a losing dialog?

Do any one of you people blogging remember the incident in Chowchilla, Ca. kidnapped a whole bus, children and bus driver. He had preplaned it. He had the bus lifted into a hole big enough to put bus in, including children and all. It ha venilation, the whole works. They were their for maney days, I think about a month, some how they figured a way out,maybe by dgging. I can't remember all the details, tary looking it up on your computers. This happen at least in the 70"s or late 70. This incident reminds me of that very thing, only on a way small scale.

Oh there it is, the good 'ole "he would just have used a knife" argument.

I've also asked for people who disagree to propose a solution and I haven't heard anything!!

Moose8684

Would you lose your ability to vote also? How about your right to free speech? Rights are inherent in human beings, not granted by some governing entity, therefore legitimate government has no right to force people to prove their mental competence in order to grant them rights. Once a government decided who has rights, and who doesn't, then it is no longer a legitimate form of government, but an oppressor.

Votes don't kill people. Speech doesn't kill people. Guns kill people. Also, none of are inherent rights are absolute. The right to religious practice does not allow people to throw virgins into volcanoes. The right to free speech does not allow people to falsely yell "fire" in a crowded theater. The right to a free press does not allow people to libel or slander. The right to assemble does not allow people to riot and spread havoc. The right to vote does not allow people to vote more than once in an election. Do any of those "inherent rights" and go to prison. The right to keep and bear arms is also not absolute. Mandating background checks and mental exams before acquiring a firearms, followed by one every few years at least is a reasonable limitation of a right that is not absolute. Don't pass the check or exam, no gun (and lose the ones already in ownership). If one is a law-abiding, stable individual, he/she gets to exercise the right to keep and bear arms, so there will be nothing to fear.

Now, this is the misunderstanding. One side says somethings, while the other hears something totally different. This whole debate seems bigger than the issues themselves. Not necessarily murder, but these horrific acts, that transpire out of the control of Everyone. Yet is not forget one of the most intelligent men to walk this half water soaked planet. "Peace Can't be mantained through Violence," so for anyone to hint that our law enforcement doesn't do their jobs effectively is a lie... I should know, by the way I'm black. I see more police than stop lights on my way to school. To suggest that some "Super Gun" could make time pause as they catch the perpetrator seems pretty juvenile. In retrospect, what could have been done differently by enforcement personnel post gun shots?

All it takes is for someone to be fed up and the consequences can be dire. What is there to stop someone, realistically? I mean yea, you have a gun, but if you aren't there, or there isn't a bullet in the chamber it's useless. I've been robbed before, and there is regret. Honestly though, hindsight is a B*, but honestly, what WOULD you have changed. Personalities are shaped, from years of mental conditioning, so re-doing something would proove useless, unless you have hindsight, or in this case insight.

As much crap as I have given the police or enforcement branch of governemnt, they do their best. I mean, is there supposed to be an armed gaurd there at all times? Will keeping our freedoms come at the sacrifice of our privacy? As many cures and life-saving treatments we develop, we find new ways to destroy ourelves. I don't think getting rid of guns completly will work either, but when I think of that little girl in CHicago... When I think of Tyiesha from My old drill team who died innocently as well, when I see the news and hear about another little innocent kid sleeping killed by another set of bullets that were meant elsewhere... I mean, something does need to be done. We can't continue to let children continue to be shot, or detained like in Arizona or Alabama. Those were also rights someone had. He used he is right to build a dungeon, and kidnap the life of someone else.

I think the underlying issue is that America Is Sick. We have so much sick BullCrap goin on and beeing said. She is very sick, and I don't know how to heal her. Like that Jetta commercial... We have to be happy, regaurdless.

Jerry, that was a wonderfully rational response.

"Oh and people are still living free without handguns in Canada, the UK, Denmark, The Netherlands, etc."

Oh and people are living free without guns in Poland, France and Germany, but they weren't 75 years ago. What about all those people in China and North Korea, they are living free with guns too aren't they? I wish I could live in a bubble like you do, but I have actually seen other parts of the world. In the UK, where guns are totally illegal, there are still over 10,000 crimes committed with guns every year, a far cry from the peaceful utopia that is presented in the media. I guess you also don't remember the mass shooting in Denmark a year or two ago where 77 people were killed, most children. I find it odd that you don't include Switzerland in your rant, since they have the lowest crime rates in Europe, but I guess that is because that would totally discredit your argument.

It seems like any news that involves guns is becoming headlines lately. While I agree that senseless violence of any kind has become commonplace these days, I don't believe that taking away gun rights is the answer. Gun ownership is one of the main reasons that other countries are very fearful of invading us. Our country was founded on the principal of a well armed civilian militia. I also feel that unless they can take all guns out of circulation, then the public have a right to defend themselves against gun violence. Making every gun owner take a general knowledge and safety course is a very good idea as well.

I have no problem submitting to mental health checks to own a gun either, but I fear that those checks will be as abused as bad as the legal system already is. However, if they do start to test, I would suggest that they start with politicians and law enforcement. Most in those categories would fail a simple competency test, much less anything harder.

One example for law enforcement:

You pull over a driver for throwing out a cigarette butt:

a- do you just write her an overpriced ticket and be done with it?

b- do you harass her to death about something you can't prove?

c- do you do a strip search on the side of the highway?

d- do you just shoot as many bullets as you can because you thought you saw something shiny in her hands?

e- do you just give her a warning?

And for politicians:

Your in control of making laws for the country that could make or break the lives of millions:

a- You should carefully pervert the laws in your best interest and then take advantage of your inside knowledge of events and make as much money as possible?

b- You should base your decisions on the bribes of the lobbyists, and then make as much money as possible on your inside knowledge?

c- You should not worry about passing any silly laws as you barely have enough time to start running for re-election?

d- You should only vote party lines, even if you know its wrong and will hurt millions of people?

e- Take as much time off as possible, and have sex with your interns?

f- Listen only to your corporate masters, and create laws and vote to fill their pockets?

g- Listen to your voters, and represent them when making decisions?

h- Screw it, just create laws that you yourself cannot possible abide by, then go have sex with your interns.

Most of the police in the UK don't have handguns. There is a special branch that is allowed them. However, the criminals do have them and I have read on many occasion on a police inspector's blog that the police over there will get shot by the criminals and have no way to protect themselves. The British police would like to have guns so they can protect themselves. I'm just clarifying a point, Michele, so it is not necessary to go off like a rocket after reading this. Just stating facts as I have read them from a British inspector's blog. (Inspector Gadget is what he goes by) Brazil has banned all guns nationwide but they have the highest gun kill rate globally. (like in the whole planet.) What I think is that since Sandy Hook, gun deaths are being reported more often. They have been going on all along but we have not heard about it as much as we do now. Chicago has the toughest gun laws yet shootings still take place. I don't know what the answer is for this horrendous situation that has gone out of control. I think tests for mental competency every two years is the most stupidest thing I have read, though. The kidnapping of this little child is horrible. I can't even wrap my head around it. I think the guy should be hanged when they capture him. I pray that the little child makes it out safely.

Indeed I have seen numerous parts of the world. Not sure why you think you are the only person who has. I certainly do remember the Denmark incident but it's not something you see in their news every single fricking day like it's getting to be here. Hmmmm, China, North Korea.....you do realize those are communist countries and have been for rather a long time right? I don't believe I said that there were not countries that didn't have widespread gun ownership where the citizens were not free. If you don't have any constructive solutions and think everything is fine the way it is, there's really no need to debate the issue with you any further. Have a good evening.

Wildstar - where did I go off like a rocket exactly? I've heard about some of what you wrote. Despite what you may think, I'm not all gung ho about getting rid of all guns in this country. I don't even think it would be possible. However, I sure don't understand the resistance to background checks and or mental health checks to purchase and continue to own guns. I doubt it is *the* solution, but it's something and *something* has to be tried. We have to work towards some kind of improvement of the current situation.

If you can get medication, coloring books and crayons to the child. Why not put sleep gas down this chamber and then wait and get in and save the child. Why wait for the man to make the decision when he is going to come up.

Because the guy more than likely would have plenty of time to blow the kids brains out when he sees anything like that drop down the tube. I'm sure he was warned them of that.

"Spiddas

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." -- Benjamin Franklin

A Vietnam Vet who had been in the process of going over the edge, kidnapped a child, killed a bus driver, and is holding him hostage. And all you knee-jerk, gun control bastards are more concerned about the guns. Never fail to take advantage of a "crisis", eh?

"Whenever something terrible happens, people reflexively demand that government do something. This impulse almost always leads to bad laws and the loss of liberty." -- Ron Paul

Put the perpetrators of gun crimes away for life, or execute them if caught in the act. If they're not competent, lock their asses up until they are, or never.

Problem solved...

How god-damned simple can it be?!?!"

Oh yeah, that totally solves the problem. Except for the dead innocent person, the dead innocent person's wife, husband, son, daughter, mom, dad, niece, nephew, nieghbor, boss, friends.... Yeah, too bad your vision of "solving the problem" does not include raising the dead. Let's just hope that if it happens to you and yours you think your problem has been solved by putting the criminal away or executing them.

Sometimes tone of voice can even come off in the wording and one can conjecture you are feeling strongly about this right now as everyone is. (although I think some are a little bit over the edge.) I never mentioned anywhere, Michele, that I was resistant to background checks, if that was what you were implying or you could have been addressing all those who are resistant, in general. It was not totally clear from you answer. I think there should be background checks because no one wants to see someone who is already been convicted of a violent crime (like a stabbing) have a weapon. In the case of vets, I don't know what the answer could be because they already carried weapons in the service and, as we already know, that doesn't stop them from shooting their fellow soldier. I think the whole world has gone nuts. I heard that Switzerland allows everyone to have a gun but they have low crime rate. I don't think there is a pat answer because there are so many variables across the globe. However, something does need to be done here. I don't think anyone has the answer. Not one.

Ah yes, they are communist countries and have been for a really long time, I wonder why that is? Do you not see how this solidifies my point? People get killed all around the world, in every country, every day. You see it on the news every day because there is an agenda being pushed. In a country with 300+ million people it is not hard to go find a shooting every day and put it on the news, but the numbers show that violent crime is going down, even crimes with guns.

Jerry, do you not see the fallacy of your own argument? You say our rights are not absolute, and that is true, in that my right does not allow me to infringe upon the rights of others. We cannot cast virgins into volcanoes with our right to freely practice religion because the virgins have rights. We cannot libel or slander with our right to freedom of the press because the people we libel or slander have legal rights as well. We cannot use our right to assemble to riot or cause havoc because the people who might be injured, or have property which will be destroyed have rights. You cannot vote twice in an election because in doing so you are diminishing the rights of people who have only voted once. All of these situations that you provide are situations in which one has taken their rights to a point that they have infringed on the rights of others. Owning a gun does not infringe upon the rights of anyone, anymore than simply having the right of freedom of religion means that we will cast virgins into volcanoes. At the point where one person's rights infringe upon the rights of others, that is where law begins, which is why we have laws against murder and assault, because that is the point at which the right to keep and bear arms infringes upon the rights of others.

Wildstar, I wasn't implying that, or anything, about you at all.

Sad, and they keep wanting people to hire veterans of wars, and then when they get pizzed at government, they will poison your food in the stores, go on a shooting spree, or kidnap your/their own child for negotiations.

All vets imo need some kind of mental evaluation that has fought in any war.

Poor kid. He might be coloring in a coloring book, but this will haunt him for a long, long time knowing that he has been held away from his mom and friends.

@ the bigpicture, post 1.1
What are you talking about?

"This guy sure sounds like he deserved to be a gun owner. Firing weapons at neighbors and killing bus drivers"

I didn't realize there is a test to own a gun or some how some people deserve and others don't deserve to own guns. Are you another one of those that think you should own a home to own a gun or what in your mind qualifies a person to be deserving? As for the rest of your post, let's not lie to make a point. He didn't kill multiple drivers and unless you read a different story than the one you are posting about there is no mention in this one about him shooting at neighbors.

Maybe we need to do a study on how many medications there are for psychotic disorders and or diseases? Included in that study should be how many medications cause brain disorders and or diseases as a side affect? It sure seems to me the more we tamper with the brain the more dysfunctional it becomes. Maybe we need to put these people somewhere they can be monitored when being experimented on?

Kevin D-289686 re: posting 1.6

"What's needed are continual mental exams for gun-owners. I suggest one every two years. Fail the test...lose your right to own guns."

If that's OK, then how about we (the government) require a mental exam every 2 years for those wishing to exercise their rights under the First Amendment of the Constitution. Oh hell, let's make it 3 years the first amendment is important after all, the rest maybe not so? That would be fair, wouldn't it?

To the abductor I say, DUDE, GIVE IT UP! What? You think the cops/judicial system might somehow go easier on you the longer you hold out? You messed up big-time man. Do the right thing, man up & accept that you're #$%&ed, release the kid so that he and his family can try to get back to something resembling a normal life.

To the boy & his family: I can't imagine how tough this ordeal must be. Try to be strong. I'm hopeful this clown will give up soon & you'll be reunited. Not just that, but also hoping that you might get some satisfaction when this guy gets sentenced to the rest of his life behind bars.

What's needed are continual mental exams for gun-owners. I suggest one every two years. Fail the test...lose your right to own guns.

Because there is this document that many people fought and died over and says your right to own a firearm won't be taken away. The right to own a firearm is right up there with the right to vote and the right to tell other people to f*ck off. Any method that successfully takes away one can be used to take away the others, "FOR THE CHILDREN!!!".

So what the hardcore gun people are still saying is that we should change absolutely nothing. Do nothing at all to stop all of these senseless crimes and murders. Everything is just fine the way it is. That's great. Perfect solution.

Amazing you actually get it!

I understand that to your young liberal activist mind that every perceived ill in the world "must be set right" and that you feel righteous in your crusade. Many people have felt that way before you and many will feel that way after your dead. Something you need to understand, whether you want to or not, is that the law of unintended consequences rules everything.

You the young idealistic liberal activist will not be writing any laws or deciding any rules, or even having a voice in how their enforced. Old cynical men who have successfully manipulated you and those like you will be the ones writing these laws. They will be the ones writing the exceptions and writing in the loop holes and gotchas. They will be write these laws in such a way that a future administrative action (not voted upon) will be capable of altering these laws to be used for their own personal agendas. We have many laws in the USA that are no longer being used for their initial purpose and have been twisted. Look no further then the DMCA, a law originally devised to combat online piracy is now being used to make unlocking your cellphone illegal. Tax laws put in place to combat prohibition era organized crime are now being used to attack legal cannabis dispensaries inside states that they are legal to operate in.

Any "guns law" to "PROTECT THE CHILDREN!!!" will be used for anything except that. They will become administrative tools to force the population to keep inline with the government, something the original writers of the Constitution were very afraid of.

I defend the 2nd Amendment with the exact same vigor that I defend the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th all the way to the 27th (as weird as it may be). The first 10 are especially critical as their all written to prevent a tyrannical government from enslaving the citizens of the USA.

This story though very sad is dire proof that the gun laws already in force don't work. The NRA is right all alone. The laws already on the books need to be inforced. This guy showed all his neighbors and even the school bus driver the day before he killed him,how crazy he is. No one has been able to say yet where he got a gun,but does it really matter. NO! Ask Chicago. I personally think the mess in this whole world is driving some people off their rockers.

I have bigger closets then that! Bunker my asz that wont even make a septic tank, does anyone know what is down their, if its only 192 sq ft then put them to sleep and get the boy out, he has been digging for how long? does anyone know what they are facing or what they need to know to get this resolved?

post 1.42 has a point, lets go one farther with all the problems facing society today, maybe we should look at whatwe do in mental health???? I'm starting to think that confussed is not so confused. good explanation as to why society is so disarranged. meaning don't take the pill. it won't fix things, it will make you do weird things. and stay away from mental counselors that went to school on government grants, and psychiatrists that worked for the CIA.

For the anti-gun nuts.

The bill of rights, which ensures the basic rights given to all in the USA was originally written by Madison (from inspiration from Locke).

The amendments which have occurred to me, proper to be recommended by congress to the state legislatures are these:

First. That there be prefixed to the constitution a declaration That all power is originally vested in, and consequently derived from the people.

That the people have an indubitable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to reform or change their government, whenever it be found adverse or inadequate to the purposes of its institution.

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed, and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person.

Seeing as the nation was formed by people who bore arms against their established government (British Empire) it's kinda obvious what he's referring to here. The writers of the Constitution also weren't very keen on a standing military at home, they didn't want to see the Government use that military to coerce and pacify the population.

Based on the responses from Michelle and 31C, they actually believe the human race can achieve a Utopian environment. I hope you understand that studies have been done that show that even if we got rid of ALL monetary based crimes, 5% of the criminal population would still left to deal with. And most of them are violent offenders. They do not follow laws. They do not give a damn about you, your family or your stuff. They will acquire whatever "implement" they desire to do their deeds. Not to sound like a smartass, but disarming law-abiding citizens will NEVER protect law-abiding citizens.

I used to live out in the boonies in SE Ohio where the sheriff wouldn't even come out unless someone got shot. So any argument regarding having the police protect you is downright foolish. This is even backed up via the SCOTUS:

"...fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." -- Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App.181)

And it's not limited to the rural regions. I had to call the cops where I currently live, (one of Ohio's metro areas), and they NEVER SHOWED UP!

“The psychotic murder in Newtown, Conn. broke 41 laws – how insane do you have to be to think the 42nd law would have had any effect on this madman? If you listen to Mike Bloomberg framing the Second Amendment as a deer hunting issue – this is bizzaro world. He’s got to be the dumbest upright species in the history of breathing creatures. What kind of idiot thinks that our Founding Fathers were protecting deer hunting?” -- Ted Nugent

Chain-gangs and public executions WORKED. It gave a stark reminder as to what WOULD happen if you violated someone's civil rights. And it was a helluva lot cheaper than what prison life has become in the 21st century! But we don't like to see the trash when it gets taken out. God forbid we show our kids that life in this world is dangerous. Maybe that's why they do all these dumbass "extreme" things...

You may be well traveled, but like my grandfather used to say, you're just intelligent enough to outsmart yourselves...

Biden: New gun controls likely won't end shootings

"Nothing we're going to do is going to fundamentally alter or eliminate the possibility of another mass shooting or guarantee that we will bring gun deaths down to 1,000 a year from what it is now," Biden told reporters Thursday afternoon after he spent over an hour lunching with Democratic senators at the Capitol.

"But there are things that we can do, demonstrably can do, that have virtually zero impact on your Second Amendment right to own a weapon for both self defense and recreation that can save some lives," he said.

Sorry Joe, but ANYTHING that violates the Second Amendment WILL be disregarded by the People, Law Enforcement and the courts at this point in the game. The People are wising up.

Based on the responses from Michelle and 31C, they actually believe the human race can achieve a Utopian environment.

Their liberal activists, they actually believe in the Marxist concept of the evolved society. The society where everyone has shed all their personal desires and works for the good of the whole, where all government decisions are for the people's own good. Basically an authoritarian fascist regime that has soldiers marching in the streets to "show the people strength" and where anyone vocally opposing the government is kidnapped in the middle of the night, shot and buried in an unmarked grave.

Karl Marx was one of the worst things to happen to the modern world.

I see someone quoting Ted Nugent, I see someone explaining the Bill of Rights, and I see someone talking about taking guns from people, but I don't see anyone talking about the situation at hand. One to quote Ted Nugent as your source is a little far off. Trying to explain the Bill of Rights to me as "to prevent a tyrannical government from enslaving the citizens of the USA" has always been funny to me since the evil act of slavery was done to the those same citizens by said government (or were slaves consider citizens or property?). It will never happen that all guns are removed from everyone's hands. That isn't going to happen. Want to get real about gun violence and defeat all the gun nuts or anti gun nuts? BAN THE SALE AND MANUFACTURE OF ALL BULLETS AND GUNPOWDER. Please tell me the difference between liberal and whatever! It's thrown out so much on this site, it's like calling someone a thug or a racist. Funny!

How can you gun nuts say that a person who intends to do harm will do it with a knife if he doesn't have a gun? The truth is most of these killers or would-be killers are punk cowards. The gun is what gives them the guts to kill in the first place! The murderer at Sandy Hook would hide and cower when someone spoke to him, according to his own mother. The gun made him a "big man"... gave him the confidence to do what he did. There would be LESS murders with LESS guns. Simple as that.

And this guy that took this kid into a bunker was a "conspiracy theorist" who distrusts his government??? Sounds like about half the gun owners blathering about their gun rights right now! Maybe they are all insane and NEED to have their guns taken away! This gun culture we are in is just so stupid and backwards... something needs to change. And the NRA and most of you gun guns are not even willing to give up military assault weapons or require background checks. If those actions kept just one person from being murdered, it would be worth it. But no, you want EVERYTHING. My right to send my kids to school in a safe environment and to go to a movie in a safe environment and my right to go shopping at the mall in a safe environment... my rights are JUST as important as your rights! And I certainly do not see any "well regulated militia" in the private ownership of guns in this country. If you keep on with your insane blatering and these murders continue to be front and center every day in this country, eventually you may lose ALL of your gun rights. You need to come to the table with some reasoning...

My right to send my kids to school in a safe environment and to go to a movie in a safe environment and my right to go shopping at the mall in a safe environment... my rights are JUST as important as your rights!

Except those "rights" don't exist. I've just read through the Constitution and the various amendments, none proclaim those to be guaranteed rights. The right to bear firearms on the other hand is guaranteed as is my right to tell you this.

theotherguy1234, typical gun-nut response. I think there is something in our consitutution that gives me the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. NO??? Now, you go define right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I'm sure that might be a little challenging for you.

And I certainly do not see any "well regulated militia" in the private ownership of guns in this country.

Then you probably do not understand the numerous court findings that uphold it... Lets see what the definitions are the law and courts use...

Regulate. v.a. [regula, Lat.] 1. To adjust by rule or method. - Locke
2. To direct. - Wiseman
-- Dictionary of the English language by Samuel Johnson, 1768, 3rd edition

militia (mə-lish'-ə). 1. A body of citizens armed and trained, esp. by a state, for military service apart from the regular armed forces. • The Constitution recognizes a state's right to form a "well-regulated militia" but also grants Congress the power to activate, organize, and govern a federal militia. U.S. Const. amend. II; U.S. Const. art. I, § 8, cl. 15-16. See NATIONAL GUARD. [Cases: Militia 1-3; Weapons 1. C.J.S. Armed Services §§ 288-289; Weapons §§ 1-8, 61-62.]

reserve militia. All persons who are not exempt from military service and not actively serving in the armed forces OR national guard.

2. Roman law. Military service.

-- Black's Law Dictionary, 8th Edition [page 1014]

A body of armed citizens who are well trained to hit their target and who can follow orders is necessary for the security of a free state, the right of THESE PEOPLE to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED."

Hope that helps...

I think there is something in our consitutution that gives me the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. NO???

No...

That's in the Declaration of Independence... Not the Constitution. And that has to do with government oppression.

It's no use, they don't teach civics anymore in school. People nowadays just make sh!t up and then believe the BS they made up. No wonder we're screwed as a nation.

The world is just going to hell in a handbasket any way, we just sitting on the edge of a giant toilet waiting for the big flush. People Wake up there is no right or wrong answer to gun control or background checks. Everyone wants an easy fix but there just isn't one to be had. Remember a gun is just a gun till it used as a weapon look up the word weapon in the dictionary. Hell even a spoon can be used as a weapon you fools do want to take that a way too? And please tell me do you really think that there is a SURE FIRE way to presreen someone to keep them from doing harm to other people. Cause if you do please tell it to the TRAINED PROFESSIONALES so they can do there jobs better. If you don't then STFU. Everyone has in them the potential to do harm to other and themselves. It is all in how we handle our dailly lives and our surroundings. Even I myself have this potential to do harm But I don't because I know it is wrong to do so and also I'm not bat crap crazy. Now take this vet Dykes he has probally been suffering from SSSD for many years and has never been treated for it. For you that don't know what SSSD is it is "Shell Shock Syndrome Dissorder" most veterans who have been to war suffer from one form of it or another. It was never a true symtom till after the GULF WAR in the 1980's. The VA by way of the government finially started treating these vets for it and have been ever since. Now a person with SSSD can become paranoid,violent,delusional and may have many other mental problems. Some are noticeable some are not till they get out of control. With proper treatment it can be controled. It sounds like to me his cheese done slipped of his craker and he has lost control of reality. Now before you start saying that I fell sorry for him I don't. I hope the f**ker burns in hell for what he has done. I'm just saying there is no simple quick fix to anything or anybody. People do slip beneath the cracks and they are usually the ones whom we read about or watch on TV because thier cheese has slipped off its cracker.

Watched this on local news about this and the tornadoes in GA. Sorry, praying won't help.

Sounds to me that at least half of the more vocal gun rights posters have a more than normal fear of mental checks. Whazzmatta guys, got a few things to hide? I believe in the 2nd Amendment, but any right comes with a certain responsibility. I also believe I have the right to walk through my city without worrying about some psycho off his meds shooting up the neighborhood. I know, crooks and gangbangers still have guns, but do you think that arming a homicidal maniac makes that any better? Please, use your head for something besides keeping your ears from flapping together.

Frankie Littlevia Facebook

Do any one of you people blogging remember the incident in Chowchilla, Ca. kidnapped a whole bus, children and bus driver. He had preplaned it. He had the bus lifted into a hole big enough to put bus in, including children and all. It ha venilation, the whole works. They were their for maney days, I think about a month, some how they figured a way out,maybe by dgging. I can't remember all the details, tary looking it up on your computers. This happen at least in the 70"s or late 70. This incident reminds me of that very thing, only on a way small scale.

Frankie, below is some of the story. It's way too long to copy & paste it all so here's the link if you want to read more... http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/gangsters_outlaws/outlaws/chowchilla_kidnap/index.html

Ed Ray had stopped the school bus to see if the apparently broken-down white van needed help, and although it was a typically sultry Central California afternoon in the small town of Chowchilla, the peculiar man at the bus door was not an optical illusion caused by heat.

Two things about the stranger caught Ed's attention: the guns he was holding and the nylon stocking stretched over his head.

Being solely responsible for the 26 children still on board, Ed opened the door, hoping to avoid the use of the firearms on either himself or one of his charges.

The strange man quickly mounted the steps inside the bus and ordered Ed to get up and move to the back of the bus. The children, ranging in age from 5 to 14, had various reactions to the appearance of the newcomer. Some thought it was a prank and giggled, while others became frightened immediately. Before they could react, and before Ed had moved down the aisle and reached the back seat, two more masked men appeared from around the back of the "stalled" van and jumped into the bus.

Soon one of the men took the wheel and continued driving down lonely Avenue 21 while another stayed near the front, watching the kids and Ed. The third followed in the white van. After a few minutes the driver pulled the bus into a drainage slough and cut the motor. In an almost business-like fashion, the white van backed up to the front door of the bus and the men ordered half of the occupants into the back. All of the windows in the back of the van had been covered over, allowing in no light. The back door of the white van was then locked from the outside and the van was driven away. That van was quickly replaced by a similar vehicle, into which those remaining on the school bus were efficiently herded.

Two things:

What is the conversation about? Four days of it, I'd sort of like to know what they are chattering about.

And two: Why does law enforcement not pump some nice sleeping gas into the bunker? By now everyone is very tired and could be put to sleep easily. Problem solved.

Votes don't kill people. Speech doesn't kill people. Guns kill people. Also, none of are inherent rights are absolute. The right to religious practice does not allow people to throw virgins into volcanoes. The right to free speech does not allow people to falsely yell "fire" in a crowded theater. The right to a free press does not allow people to libel or slander. The right to assemble does not allow people to riot and spread havoc. The right to vote does not allow people to vote more than once in an election. Do any of those "inherent rights" and go to prison. The right to keep and bear arms is also not absolute. Mandating background checks and mental exams before acquiring a firearms, followed by one every few years at least is a reasonable limitation of a right that is not absolute. Don't pass the check or exam, no gun (and lose the ones already in ownership). If one is a law-abiding, stable individual, he/she gets to exercise the right to keep and bear arms, so there will be nothing to fear.

Perhaps the most eloquent and rational post I've seen on this gun control debate in days. Good post Jerry.

Drowninggrover & Jerry - the big problem is that people who don't give a sh*t about law will STILL keep weapons. This argument is the elephant in the room which gun-control folks wish to ignore. I for one can't ignore this. Bad guys will always find ways to hurt or kill peaceful people. I'd prefer training and arming the good guys to give them/us a fighting chance when the bad guys attack.

It took me just a few clicks of the mouse to find real simple plans to make a silenced .22 pistol and a few others. All of the materials needed can be bought in hardware stores just about anywhere. No need for any special tools either.

Maybe the government should regulate the internet before someone hits the print key.

The mental exams suggested for a backround check might work at first until someone who failed the test kills someone with a gun. Some politician will propose tougher mental exams because the first one failed. Soon everyone will be considered unfit to own any gun of any type...

I'll keep mine for now and hope I won't need to use it.

If this dude had used a knife instead of a gun, none of you would have anything to complain about. The fact that there is a small boy locked up in a bunker would be the main topic of conversation. Instead, you go on and on about a gun, which played a very minor role in this story. Grow the @!$%# up.

I'm sure the bus driver and his family and friends t to mention the children and their families and friends would disagree. When someone murders another person with a gun, the gun plays a major role, not a minor one.

But I get your point, it's another incident where gun advocates can square off against gun opponents and gain no ground on either side.

@Roxlie,

"The fact that there is a small boy locked up in a bunker would be the main topic of conversation. Instead, you go on and on about a gun, which played a very minor role in this story. Grow the @!$%# up."

I could not agree with you more. Yours is the best comment yet.

As if the little boy wasn't harmed enough by the shooting and abduction after 4 days of probably being terrified you can be sure that he is scarred for life. I usually have mercy when I hear that mental illness is involved but this time I hope the little boy gets to safety and the sick bastard dies a horrible death. I can't help but think what if this was one of my little brothers or their friends. But by chance and place of birth this could happen to any of us.

Tell the bus driver's children that the gun had a minor role in this tragedy, and I'll bet my next check they'll disagree.

To answer the question why they don't use some kind of sleeping gas. It's not instant. The kidnapper, realizing what is happening would have a chance to shoot the child and himself.

I say they are going to wait, sooner or later this guy is going to need something, food, water, whatever, and that's where they'll deal with him exchanging that item for the child.

Drowninggrover & Jerry - the big problem is that people who don't give a sh*t about law will STILL keep weapons. This argument is the elephant in the room which gun-control folks wish to ignore. I for one can't ignore this. Bad guys will always find ways to hurt or kill peaceful people. I'd prefer training and arming the good guys to give them/us a fighting chance when the bad guys attack.

yeah, more guns, that's certainly the answer... :rollseyes:

Or we could, you know, strengthen background checks (to include even private sales, make them go through an agent), improve mental health screening, crack down on straw purchasing (with long prison sentences), and require the registration of all firearms (I'd suggest with the state, not the federal government).

Of course, these items would not totally eliminate gun violence, nothing will. But if it limits the number of firearms that find their way into criminal and crazy people's hands, it'll make a far greater dent in gun violence than arming EVERYONE will...

The fact that there is a small boy locked up in a bunker would be the main topic of conversation. Instead, you go on and on about a gun, which played a very minor role in this story. Grow the @!$%# up.

tell that to the family of the bus driver...

why can't they pump some sleeping gas down there????

@moose Well said on post #1-9.

The media just twists and distorts any and everything. The say this "Vietnam veteran described by authorities as a loner with anti-government leanings" really if you don't like the government you would not have served in the military and fought for our country. The media is just trying to spin this into another take-away-their-gun stories and it is getting pretty pathetic. There is no unbiased media left in this country. All the media is a propaganda machine for the governments’ agendas. Maybe he does not hate the government JUST MAYBE he is mentally ill from being in Vietnam? Just another crazy person that does not have access to help that he needs instead of getting these people the help they need let’s take away every ones guns because of it. If it is so right to take away or put restrictions on guns because of people like this then we should take away cars from people and limit them to buses because of drunk drivers. Drunk drivers are the leading cause of death in this country when we are talking about people killing one another the next are blunt instruments such as bats, wrenches hands.

So please do not fall for the government propaganda. If we give up our, second amendment, all ells will follow. The government cannot be the only one armed. The second amendment has nothing to do with hunting and everything to do with fighting a tyrannical government. This just goes to show us just how lacking Obamacare is, I thought everyone would have the help they need. That was all propaganda as well.

Too bad the bus driver (good guy) didn't have a gun, then there could have been a shoot-out on a bus full of kids..

DrowningGrover,

Of course, these items would not totally eliminate gun violence, nothing will. But if it limits the number of firearms that find their way into criminal and crazy people's hands, it'll make a far greater dent in gun violence than arming EVERYONE will...

You are so wrong the guns are already out there is no getting the back gun control only hurts law-abiding citizens by taking away our 2nd amendment and our right of not have the federal government invade our lives. You can thank president Obama the gun sales have gone from what a dealer would sale in three year to that same dealer selling the same amount in just 2 month that is an 1800% increase in sales. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/02/21/might-barack-obama-be-the-greatest-gun-salesman-in-america-take-a-look/

But you believe all the propaganda about guns. Let me ask you a question how long did it take for the police to get to the scene where he killed the bus driver? 25 min or longer, now if your life is on the line you have a right to wait that long me I am not going to be the victim. It is funny how Obama wants the American people to believe guns are bad as he and his family are surrounded by armed gunmen day and night no wonder he doesn't care it does not affect him. I suppose you are one of those people that the government has convinced you that we have the "assault weapons" right. These are the same guns we have been hunt with a long time most of them you can get a .308 AR now it may look like the fully automatic versions our troops use but it is not the difference in the two guns the AR's civilians have are semi-automatic which means that you have to pull the trigger very time for the gun to send a round down range. These guns are made to look cool to some people that are all it is the accessory’s that make it look like a military weapon. Most people think that a fully automatic gun is a waste of ammo, most law-abiding people anyway.

Obama has been the greatest gun dealer of all times. Also you are worried about taking away guns from people that have a right to own them, but said nothing when the federal government sold all those guns to the Mexican drug cartels that ended up with the death of a border patrol agent. Where was you outrage about that with Obama and Eric Holder?

The media just twists and distorts any and everything. The say this "Vietnam veteran described by authorities as a loner with anti-government leanings" really if you don't like the government you would not have served in the military and fought for our country.

You do know that many kids went to Vietnam through the draft right?

tell that to the family of the bus driver...

Tell the bus driver's children that the gun had a minor role in this tragedy, and I'll bet my next check they'll disagree.

The bus driver is dead. It's very sad. But, that child is still alive. While they mourn him, I'm sure they are proud of him for doing what he did.

I saw battle-corpses, myriads of them,
And the white skeletons of young men—I saw them;
I saw the debris and debris of all the dead soldiers of the war;

But I saw they were not as was thought;
They themselves were fully at rest—they suffer’d not;
The living remain’d and suffer’d—the mother suffer’d,
And the wife and the child, and the musing comrade suffer’d,
And the armies that remain’d suffer’d.

-Walt Whitman

RTypo,

Yes, I am very aware of the fact that there was a draft during Vietnam. I this case thought, he was not drafted, the man went and he enlisted on his own. If you bleeding heart Liberals would read and understand something, like about gun, before you put untrue facts on here it would be much better. I realize you Liberals only have one agenda and hat is this socialist utopia that you think exists but that also is not a reality. Socialism has been proven to fail time and time again. Here are some of his navy commendations.

· Navy Unit Commendation

· Meritorious Unit Commendation

· Good Conduct Medal

· National Defense Service Medal

· Vietnam Service Medal

You all that think gun should be taken away because of things like this never seemed to voice your opinions about the crimes and gangs in the intercity people die their everyday because of violence where were all of you on these topics lying your lives and not caring. Than once violence starts to happen in the suburbs and starts to affect the middle class then you want to take our guns. News flash guns keep people safe why do you think Obama walks around with no less than 20 armed Secret Service men plus his kid have them at their schools. Then Obama comes out and says, no we shouldn't put armed guards at schools, then Mr. Obama from now on if that is how you feel we expect that the Secret Service will no longer accompany your daughters to school right.

On that same issue you have all these Liberals that came out and said it was wrong for the NRA to bring Obama's children into the issue, really, but it was ok in 2008 you sure did not give the same respect to the Palin family now did you. Once again it is the Liberal say as I do not as I say rule that we have all grown so tired of.

Guns save lives once the government starts to say what guns you can and cannot by; it becomes the beginning of the end. The "assault gun ban" as you liberals call it was passed in 1994 and expired in 2004 the reason the let it expire was because it did nothing to reduce crime like they thought it would. I am not willing to hand over my freedoms to the federal government. The federal governments roll is to keep the USA safe with an active military and to lend help to the state republics in this country that is all they will continue to over reach and grow until people start saying stop taking my freedoms away.

All of you that have never fired a weapon need to shut the f*88 up until you know what you are talkinabout. The media is the one that has all of you so scared because all of a sudden they show any shooting that happens in suburban America and still does not report on the crimes going on in the intercity.

I have the ADHD/Asperger's combo, and I was married to a nut similar to this guy,(though not as bad).

but the time spent in an enclosed space with no windows.

With nowhere to go, and nothing do do, that kid is going to get bored fast. TV will only hold him so long, before he shuts down, or starts to dig into this guys things.

Tackandcover:

You are very ignorant. Do you get the fact that the person that did this is a CRIMINAL? ????? In addition, if the bus driver had a gun to protect the children, none of this would have happened and he would be alive today. Get a clue.

"if the bus driver had a gun to protect the children, none of this would have happened and he would be alive today. Get a clue."

So, the driver would have seen some old guy entering the bus and just started shooting? Uh huh, that would have been great. It's also possible that if the driver had seen that the old guy had a gun that a gunfight would have ensued and one or more of the children might have been wounded or killed.

SoCalCaddy:

Sorry but you're the ignorant one. A gun on a school bus? Really? Are you that irresponsible as to suggest that it would be in the best interest of a bunch of kids to be waving a gun??? What if he hit another kid?? You need to have a mental evaluation because you sound like a loose cannon just waiting to pop off!

PBAlice and others that think like you, you are ignorant of what would really go on if the bus driver had been armed. At least he would have had a chance. Man with a gun vs. school bus driver without a gun, the man with a gun will win every time. Adam Lanza with a gun vs. a school principal without a gun, the man with a gun will win every time. At least if they would have been armed or had easy access to a gun they would have had a chance.

And will people please stop the ridiculous argument that anyone carrying a gun is a nut that would start shooting wildly at the bad guy and kill a bunch of innocent people. Could you please provide some proof that this would happen. With 80 million gun owners in this country if your argument was true there would be many instances of this happening. Show me some proof. Should be easy, right.

The facts are that people that carry guns are overly careful and reluctant to start firing. Even more so than the police. It's hard to find statistics on police shooting innocent bystanders because they don't officially record that stuff but there has been at least one study I've seen that shows the police are more inclined to open fire and or hit innocent bystanders than the average citizen who is carrying.

Does no one at all see how fishy this all is?? So many shootings in such a short amount of time, so many facts not adding up, now suddenly a veteran who is anti-government suddenly shoots a bus driver for no reason and then kidnaps a child into a bunker, thereby making anyone who owns a gun, fought in a war, doesn't trust the government and has a hold in their yard the number one suspect in America?? C'mon people, WAKE UP!! Adam Lanza died one day BEFORE the Sandy Hook shooting, in New Hampshire, by the way. Look a little further into things than what's on the front page of MSN for crying out loud, folks. You might actually learn something about why it's so important irrational emotional responses to tragedies shouldn't make new laws.

Oh yay, here come the conspiracy theorists.

Naomi Reed: If you have evidence to support your contention, publish it. Otherwise, STFU !!!

Shadowfox: Your hopolophobia is unwarranted as only a small fraction of murders are done by crazed gunmen. A fraction up until recent events are the facts. It does seem odd though, it could be news coverage or cost savings from managed care releasing or not treating people with mental problems. P.S. 15 to 20% of the population is subjective to hypnosis.

Naomi Reed... sounds like you are one that needs a mental evaluation. Hope you don't own a gun! Where do you people slither out of anyway?

I feel the police is not doing enough! There must be something they can do other than wait for this nut case to have a moment of lucidity!

bull @!$%# !!! he's a viet nam veteran and the VA has failed him ! most of you have no idea what he's been through ! No it's not right for what he is doing, but there has to be a reason, some of you low lifes want to kill him, I say fuk you why don't you try walking in his shoes for awhile, I'm a 62 year viet nam veteran, I've been shot, stabbed , blowed up, sprayed with dioxn, and the VA don't give a @!$%# about me nor due most of you, there were signs that he needed help and yet they refused to see or due anything about it. It's a shame I had to go to war and kill so you could wish a veteran killed...................................

Roodles, are you kidding me? police don't keep records? They are required to account for every single bullet fired from their service revolver off the range, even off duty. I'm not anti-gun, I'm anti stupid people with guns. If you fit in that category, please turn your gun in to the nearest Police station. You are a hazard to yourself and your community.

Silver, talk to GWB and the republicans in congress, they're the ones constantly voting against veterans assistance. They're also the ones, since Reagan, who slashed millions from mental health care. If you need an example, look at the mess that was VA hospitals during the Bush administration.

In addition, if the bus driver had a gun to protect the children, none of this would have happened and he would be alive today. Get a clue.

my god the depravity of people today. It's downright scary that people actually believe crap like this.

I hear ya silver . . . People who go over the edge like this obviously are troubled. As I mentioned in a post above the authorities should call in an anesthetist who can fill the bunker with sleeping gas. Put those tired people to sleep inside the bunker then move in safely to wrap it all up.

Hope, I do not know - I'm just guessing - but perhaps enough gas to put a full-grown man to sleep would be too much for the small boy. But I certainly hope that poor, frightened child is rescued safely.

Hope, a noble idea, but if bunkerman was as prepared as he seems, he'd put on a gas mask and wait quietly til they broached the door and set off an IED, and kill himself, the boy and who knows how many "rescuers".

Wow. I'm just totally amazed at the utter stupidity of the average citizen.

First... when you have an obesity problem in the US - the solution is to deal with the problems causing obesity and restrict or regulate the enabling factors... not to give the non-obese people free cake for life to make them fat too.

This whole "gun" debate is sheer bullpucky. Yes, providing a gun to the school bus driver would have given him "a chance". Unfortunately, you're not just arming one "hero"... you're arming every school bus driver in an effort to protect the children. I don't know about any of you, but the school bus driver I had as kid was also my dads bus driver growing up. When he was a kid, the kids on his bus managed to "talk her into a ditch" because she wasn't paying attention to the road. Imagine her 30 years later... and ARMED. Noooooooo thank you.

Let's assume she was fully competent and capable. Do I really want to "up" the intensity of the crisis by having a gun fight on a bus full of school kids? The last thing you want to do in a hostage situation is to escalate tensions. Having an armed bus driver would have done that, pretty much immediately.

And PLEASE. Quit hiding behind the 2nd amendment. You have a right to keep and bear arms. Here's your musket. Now go sit in the corner and pout while the adults in the room figure this problem out.

He bludgeoned a neighbors dog to death last year and the cops didn't arrest him??? WTF? No wonder he did this. He didn't get enough attention so now this has gone national and he's getting all the attention he wanted.

tired: those comments are far removed from grown-up talk.

If the child had a gun he might not be in this situation... Isn't that right NRA members?

@michele, in all honesty I would rather be a "conspiracy theorist" than a lemming.

@matilda, the information I assume you are referring to is Lanza's date of death, which is available in the Social Security Database Index.

It's a sad state of affairs we are in when any notion of research or lateral thinking automatically qualifies you as a nut-job. There are major problems with our society in general, and like many others on here I think one of the biggest issues with this particular case is that this veteran didn't receive the help he should have gotten before it was too late. However, rather than acknowledge THAT as the problem, most of these glossed-over stories on mainstream media and the people that read them simply choose to vilify veterans and/or those who believe in restricted government or emergency planning instead.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing your own research outside of what is told to you from a news outlet that cares nothing about the truth, but everything about sensationalism and making money.

You are believing a bunch of crap that people put out on You Tube without really knowing what is true. That makes you a lemming too my dear. Exactly what evidence did you personally see that proves that Adam Lanza died the day before the incident? If you don't have personal, firsthand proof, you are jumping over that cliff right behind the people feeding you that bunk. How exactly would you get all of the people involved in that incident to lie about it? Not only them, but every single member of law enforcement in and around the location, the medical community, the media and friends and family of absolutely everyone involved in the incident to go along with such a ridiculous lie. Oh, and not just that one incident, all of the other mass killings that all of the nutjobs think are being faked. You have to suspend all common sense to believe that it would be remotely possible to carry out such a plan.....multiple times.

LMFAO - Wait a minute. There is a huge VAST conspiracy and some idiot put the "true" date of this Lanza guys death in the SS database in there "correctly" and has single handedly blown this vast, deep, dark plot? Wow. If that's the piece of intel that convinced you, I'm truly speechless.

John and Rosie, yeah you are probably correct. I think that some types of gas are odorless and tasteless though and might work. Certainly the authorities are weighing EVERY option in this situation. I find great irony in that this disturbed man who distrusts government [allegedly] would put himself right into the line of fire so to speak. Doing the one thing guaranteed to put him right up against the thing he distrusts. Weird isn't it? Doesn't add up. Well, actually nothing he's done adds up. We're all hoping for a decent ending to this saga.

Why, Just as you would expect and demand, innocent til proven guilty, Chris.

Years ago in San Diego there was a child rapist who had been tried and convicted of the same crime once before. The judge granted him bail. While out on bail awaiting his trial, he raped and killed a 13 year girl. I wondered the same thing at the time, why would a judge give the guy bail.

because as long as you got money you get out of jail.thats what i believe!!!!

You're right, Bill, but when a person shows positive violent behavior, and is waiting trial for a gun charge, wouldn't it be prudent to not allow him access to a gun until his case was heard?

John,

I'd have to agree with Bill. If the court decided to issue a warrant to seize his guns, then fine, but they didn't. The justice system dropped the ball big time on this one.

2nd amendment...

"...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

There has to be due process. I'm guessing that if the court HAD found him guilty, he probably would have been stripped of his firearms.

Anyone ever think that - perhaps - just perhaps - maybe the threat of losing his weapons was what put this guy over the edge?

I only bring this fact up because - based off of some of the comments posted online that I've seen over the last month or two... I'm guessing we'll be seeing a LOT more of this kind of idiot should we get close to actually putting an assault weapon/large magazine clip ban in place. That certainly doesn't mean I'm not in favor of it. It needs to happen and, honestly... those people who are going to snap over an issue like this were pretty much destined to snap anyhow. I'd rather get it all over and done with now.

Bill and Bobfu, point taken, but if you get picked up for DUI, do they give you your car back? I don't think so. Why should a gun be any different?

@Tired of Stupidity-946705 - Nope...I think his neighbors pissed him off...and he just snapped! I think that he was using all his available resources to try to protect himself and to get his point across... Basically, he wanted them to leave him alone... Now he's crossed the line... I don't think (and this is just me) he means to physical harm the child (I don't think he realizes that he's already harmed the child...) as he allows medicine and crayons etc. to be delivered... I think he needs someone to figure out how to end this without anymore violance....but he's smart enough to know he's a dead man...if he gives up the child...

I think that he's given clues... "I'm not talking to you ... going to sleep...." Wouldn't that have been a good time to dispense the knockout gas? Just saying... Is anyone listening?

I guess you haven't read the latest. Dykes and Poland had talked on Monday, and Poland gave a gift of eggs and Marmalade to Dykes Tuesday morning which he gave to his neighbors. Sounds like he had some real problems with them. The same neighbor's children were allowed off the bus before the shooting started.

I'd have to agree! The center is definitely not holding these days.

Poor, poor little boy and his family! I sure hope that all ends safely. His poor parents must be beyond frantic. How can this possibly go on another day?!

Keep praying... They'll help so much!

Seems like it's coming unglued doesn't it? Well, let me say that if the media reported on all the GOOD that people do for one another every day you would see things in a better light. I guarantee that much more good happens daily than bad. Boy Scouts helping old folks across the street doesn't sell stories. Sad but true.

"Hostage negotiators talked again to the boy’s captor through a lengthy PVC pipe, but there was no sign of progress"

A PVC pipe is not a radio.

Yep, its not like they make anything that could be put at the end of a piece of pvc pipe that could transmit sound sent from somewhere else. Not saying that is the case, just saying don't be such a tool.

You got it all figured out, moose. Abduct any little boys lately?

It wasn't my idea, the original post said that he probably was on his way to Mexico and talking to them via radio. Then captain smart ass decided to pipe up and I simply explained to him that the proposed situation was possible. Trying to insinuate that I am some kind of pedophile kidnapper is a little over the line, and definitely not appreciated. Good to see that is where your mind immediately goes though Ozdaddy, I am sure you are a completely delightful individual to be around.

Moose, don't get all touchy. No worse than some of the things I've seen you say to people you disagree with. Maybe you could bear that in mind the next time you aim a personal insult at another poster.

I Pray The Baby Boy Comes Out Alive God Bless Him And His Family.My Prayers Goes Out To The Family Of The Bus Driver,May He Rest In Peace.

So this doofus is convinced that the government is his enemy and conspiring to take away his guns? Sound familiar? So his response is to murder someone and kidnap a child? Guess what, moron? Now the government really is coming to get you!

I think the FBI needs a new "negotiator"...this is unbelievable.

I think they know he has a TV and is watching.

The people interviewed talked about the mothers nickname for her son, and the negotiator is making sure

not to make any statements that would anger this mentaly unstable loon.

Seems pretty simple to me.

First off to all that agree with gun laws... your all ignorant. WHAT KILLS PEOPLE???? PEOPLE. It will never end. Till the day jesus walk the earth again it will never end. i pray for the saftey of this boy. But banning guns is not the cure. you think all the veterans in this country will let that happen. to not even becapable of defending your self? I take pitty on you that are ignorant in that way. Truth be told there is much worse out there. And most of it is fault to either poor or corrupt government. Government is here to help and control the people from doing things like this. instead we starve homeless veterans, cut our school budgets and apply to military force. Go ahead jerk offs. take our weapons. and give them right back to the government to rule us more with abortions(just have sex and have no fear!!!! Will kill your kid for you!for a price) @!$%# this is all messed up. In final note to all you tree huggin liberal pieces O.S. come get my guns from my cold dead hands. May god be with your soul!

And this kind of talk is really gonna help the situation with guns. Do you not think there may be a correlation between crazy talk about the government taking your guns and the recent spike in gun violence? I believe there should be background checks, gun registration, I don't believe in taking anyone's gun away.

Daniel,

You're actually providing more ammo, pun intended, to the regulations supporters with rants like yours.

I think existing gun laws are sufficient and the problem lies within the justice system. Enforce the existing laws for people who commit crimes with guns or any weapon for that matter, and keep them in prison until the entire sentence is served. No getting out for good behavior, no early release for crowded cells.

Charlton Heston wasn't buried with a gun in " His Cold Dead Hands "

If The Greatest Nation in the History of the World wants to take your guns away They Will.

You all sound real tough hiding behind your computers. Nothing but junior high boasting. I

remember a guy named bin laden boasting and hiding. The United States found him and brought

him to Justice. He is now Fish Food. Have A Nice Day.

Grandpa, has there REALLY been a "recent spike in gun violence" or is it just a "recent spike in the reporting of gun violence?" Probably the latter.

The proponents of the "recent spike in proposals of new gun control laws" seem to have taken a page from the MADD mothers playbook of the 90's. Constant media onslaught, constant repetition of the mantra, and constant denigration in the news media managed to increase DWI laws, through constant subliminal penetration of the mindless masses. To the point that now you can be arrested for a hypothetical death by vehicular accident, which death has the same probability to hypothetically NOT OCCUR. All in the name of "protecting the children."

Beware, people, you COULD be being manipulated.

That sound you keeping hearing is your knee hitting your desk.

TapOut ~~~ You are right, but legally, he is not guilty until found guilty in a trial.

Suspected . . . Um technically yes. Actually, obviously, a FACT. Trouble is law abiding folks must abide or 'suspects' will be turned loose on a technicality.

It does read ridiculously but it must read that way.

What does this have to do with background checks? Do you have some new pre-crime technology that can predict what someone will do in the future?

You know, a written, competency test should be mandated for anyone that wants to purchase a gun. Guns need to be registered and accounted for yearly, just like cars. If the gun gets stolen and it isn't reported then there should be a hefty fine for the owner.

So what you propose is that the government should know where every gun in this entire country is at all times? I have a couple questions on this;

1) Do you really think that it is possible for the US Government to register every gun in the country? What about all the unaccounted for guns that are already in existence?

2) Does none of this strike you as directly flying in the face of the 2nd Amendment? Granted, you might not agree with the original intent of said amendment, but it exists nonetheless, and there is a process prescribed for legally repealing it.

3) Lets just assume that 1) All guns will be registered, even the ones held by criminals, and 2) The 2nd amendment doesn't exist or somehow gets repealed. Do you really think it is a good idea for the government to know where every privately owned gun is? The same government that wiped out the Native Americans and stole their land? The same government that determined that black people could be held as property and only counted as 3/5 of a person? The same government that has killed people around the world for political strategy and control of commodities? The same government that shipped weapons to drug cartels in Mexico, and terrorists in Libya and Syria? That government? Listen, I understand how crazy it sounds when people are on the internet saying things about starting a revolution right now, because it is crazy, but it is not any crazier than a person claiming that our system in this country will last forever, and that people will never, ever, ever again in the history of the world have to fight to preserve or regain their basic human freedoms from an out of control government. If that is really your opinion, then as Samuel Adams once said "may your chains rest lightly upon you, and may God forget that you were ever our countrymen."

What about equality? Shouldn't every person in America take a test to prove their sane once a year, you never know they could have a weapon in their hand at any moment.

The idea of mental competence tests makes me nervous for several reasons:

Number one: psychologists have not determined a way to predict who will be capable of violence in the future, so what test would be used and what score would be acceptable?

Number two: there are millions of people in this country right now with mental illnesses who are functioning just fine and will never commit crimes or acts of violence-they could be your doctor, your lawyer, your accountant, your banker, the CEO next door, your brother, or any number of people around you. Mental illness alone is not a predictor of violence.

Number three: most of the people who do commit violence in this country do so against people who live with them. I'm talking about domestic abuse and child abuse. They don't get as much press as incidents like this unless the abuse is really horrific, and I think the average person is a little afraid to deal with them because the issue can hit really close to home-this can REALLY affect your neighbor, your family or even you as a victim or as a perpetrator. Should someone who is battering his or her spouse and/or kids own a gun? People who work in this area know that domestic violence tends to escalate over time. If they should not own a gun, would a mental competence exam screen that person?

Number four: regarding people like the man in this article, some have said that even his neighbors knew how "crazy" he was. How? Because he dug a hole in his yard and was a bit paranoid? Those are hardly universal predictors of violence. Even doctors who interview people can have a hard time judging how sick they are, especially in a brief interview. How can a "mental competence" exam be a perfect indicator? How can you distiguish between someone who is just a bit eccentric but presents no danger to the community and someone who does present a danger? And how do you define what behavior is "normal"? Digging holes may be normal in farming country but very abnormal in the middle of Central Park! That's the problem with a standard one-size-fits-all test for mental competence, especially when there is no scientific precedent for establishing who may commit violence in the first place. It appears to me that there would be a lot of room for abuse and no real gain.

Some people who comment seem to believe there are simple solutions to this type of problem, but I believe the problem is far more complex. I believe the need for better mental health treatment is part of the problem, though that would not prevent every violent crime; certainly enforcing the gun law we have is another part; and very carefully evaluating the need for additional laws like maybe background checks could be another part, though it should not be a knee jerk response. There seems to be a tremendous amount of anger throughout this country-people seem very frustrated and even confused about a lot of things. When a person gets angry, they can lash out; and, when they have any sort of weapon, it can get deadly. Unfortunately, I'm not sure we will ever be able to fix things so that we can prevent every single crime of violence, though I'm certainly not against doing what we can. It's just that becoming angry and tearing at each other does not seem to be helping.

Amen brother and thank you for that finaily some one with intelligence!

Any number of recent perpetrators showed previous tendencies, from Columbine to bunkerman, many friends and family members of shooters later admitted that they saw signs but never paid much attention to them. We, as a nation, have to learn to notice these signs for what they are, and act on them, even if we feel it's a betrayal. It might save their life.

Seen too much, as for the bunkerman, a few hints might have been beating a neighbor's dog to death with a pipe, or maybe threatening another neighbor with a gun and shooting at their truck when they drove away. I'd think that a bit odd from my neighbors.

The NRA would have seen to it that all the 5 year old's on that bus were well armed so that when the gun man tried to off the bus driver, who would have also been well armed, they would have killed him in a hail of bullets.

What does the NRA have to do with this? This is as ignorant as saying "what is AAA going to do about drunk driving?" The NRA is an organization that supports the 2nd amendment, just like the ACLU is for the 1st, 4th, etc, they are not responsible for every crime someone commits. Even if someone commits a crime with a gun, it is not the fault of the NRA. If you don't like the 2nd Amendment then get 2/3rds of both houses to vote on repeal and 3/4 of the states to ratify, until then don't blame the NRA for forcing the government to admit that it exists.

The NRA is a gun manufacturing lobby....they have little to do with any amendment in the Constitution. Member dues make up less than 1% of their income. Gun manufactures keep it afloat.

Kevin, my point is they simply force the government to recognize the 2nd Amendment. If you do not agree with this amendment to the Constitution then by all means repeal it, but understand that there are ramifications to this. The NRA does not make any laws, they don't enforce any laws, they don't give guns to criminals, so I fail to see how the NRA has anything to do with this.

@missy (a.k.a. binkythorhill)

I wonder what Pillsbury would do to handle this. That comment makes as much sense as yours. The NRA is on record as supporting legal gun ownership. This person became a non-legal gun holder as soon as he threatened his neighbor as is stated in the article (if you in fact read it before jumping into your paid for roll of commenting on this forum). You should properly ask why if he was under indictment for menacing he was allowed to still hold weapons until after the court decided if and what his guilt or innocence was and the punishment therein.

You are simply the paid poster that mscommunism employs. At least I wish they would hire people with some intellectual integrity.

It doesn't matter what the NRA thinks. Having a bus full of students with no protection is crazy. There should be an armed guard on school buses if bus drivers don't want to carry guns.

As long as the NRA pays for all those hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of armed guards, Most Special. I'm still of the view that we should've taken Mr. LaPierre up on his generous offer to put armed guards in all of our schools, funded by a special levy on every gun purchase in America. I mean, surely that's what he - a small government conservative - would want. After all, he wouldn't want us to have to raise taxes on everybody in order to fund all that extra security, now woud he?

I don't know about other places, but here in central VA there are already police officers in every middle and high school. With around 25 elementary schools in my county they could easily pull 25 officers who are just riding around or sitting in the median giving traffic tickets and put one in every elementary school.

Most Special..... does that mean special education?.... Who can afford to pay for an armed guard on every school bus?

Yeah let's pull most of the officers off the street and put them in schools, on busses, in all major stores and shopping centers. Then there will be nobody available to respond to calls. Brilliant. Also, we don't want to be like China for example, but now we want armed guards everywhere to solve this problem. Again, just brilliant.

Gun laws, Gun laws, everybody wants Gun laws. How many laws do we have that make drugs illegal but the people who want drugs have absolutely No problem getting them. It would be exactly the same thing if guns were banned. A nut job doesn't care how many years he will get in prison if he has a gun. Guns are not the problem, people are. Maybe we should just Ban people.

Wow, hey Calyps, where can I get a job like that? I must be wasting my time, not getting paid for my posts. Another point you seem to ignore. The NRA was firmly in favor of gun control laws during the Reagan administration. Now they're against them. It never was a safety issue, it was always political. The party of low information is also the party of short memory.

First they have to convince him to release the kid. Once the little boy is out, they should just use a bunker buster on 'im.

Once they get the boy out of the "bunker", just fill it with water, don't let the nut out.

Water? Nah hook it up to a septic tank once they get the kid out.

Hopefully this ends well.

Yes, and this one situation totally invalidates all the rapes, murders, robberies, and assaults that are stopped every year by an armed individual

If the bus driver was armed, he may have been able to protect himself and his bus full of children.

Or he could have been shot by the lunatic before he could reasonably know that the guy was a real threat, or he could have sparked a gunfight that would have gotten some of those children shot.

I feel threatened with all the cops' guns pointing at me - little boy is equally in danger. A sniper is no use. Blowing up the bunker is no option. Human fatigue is the solution as long as Dykes is hanging to the air. Or inject some knock out gas in his breathing tube.

yeah, one of those needs to be a height

The 8 feet is the height, dude.

Maybe the 8 feet is the depth it is underground.

ahh, it's a hole, 8' deep. ok, gotcha

But where's the height?

His family is Christiian, or at least I would guess so since this gentleman was. In that regard, no greater love has any man that dies to save another, and this gentleman saved how many kids? I bet they are getting some consolation from that fact. I still get your point, though. This bus driver is indeed a hero.

Get off my lawn and stay outa my bunker!

Is this some fairy tale you have imagined or do you have some kind of inside knowledge? Either way, nothing excuses what he has done.

If he had a problem with his neighbors, he should have followed the proper procedures and filed formal complaints against them. However, he has a mistrust of the govt and authority and took the "law" into his own hands. He is a crazy murderer!

Hope you get to live next door to a neighbor JUST LIKE HIM!

Yakmen has a good point, these things happen to a lot of retired people, but there is also a law in every state in the union against elder abuse, and I am sure Dale Country has a unit there for this purpose, if they don't they are breaking a law. If a complaint is reported and they do nothing about it, they are held accountabe, every one in this country is a mandated reporter on abuse of elders and children, if you see either abused and you don't report it, then you can be fined and put in jail. Never the less, we all have free will, to make the right or wrong choice. This man made a bad choice. Maybe he did go to the cops, and they egnored him, or didn't care. That I can believe. These people all grew up together and have known each other all their lifes, and athey will not get envolved or tell on one another. I feel the pain for that little boy and his family and I pray all turns out well.

Frankie, are you still here?

sorry, meant to say yakman are you still here....want to learn more about what you said

Yakman, you sound like you know this man. Or are you just making up a scenario that, in your shallow mind, would justify the actions he did? I don't agree at all with the bloodthirsty neurotics that want to shoot him on sight. I'd rather he be taken into custody so mental health professionals could try to find what triggered his actions and therefore try to prevent it from happening again.

Folks...All Yakman was saying is that we've all judged this man. NOT DENYING THAT HE IS NOW A MURDER AND KIDNAPPER... What Yakman was stating is that we've only heard one side of the story...the neighbors via the media). Do you know for certain that Bunker dude didn't file complaints? It's easy for the neighbors to group together (gang) and say he is crazy...but what were their actions and did they help contribute too or try to stop the situation before it escalated to this point where he is now a MURDER AND KIDNAPPER? None of us knows the truth...we're speculating... They obviously paid attention to him...they knew he patroled his property at night, they watched him create the bunker... They didn't stop their dogs and kids from trespassing on his property... He gave them warning (albeit not exactly a legal way)... They did in a way incite him and bully him (maybe unwittingly...or maybe wittingly)...again, we really don't know... (but we should have a lessons learned article when this is done). NONE OF THIS MATTERS NOW...HE SNAPPED...AND WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE CONCERNED FOR THE CHILD...

So Yakman, Why kill the bus driver and kidnap a child? I'd figure he'd take out one harrassing neighbor at a time. Did the bus driver or the children do something to upset this guy? I really don't care what the other side of the story may be at this point.

Sure. The bus driver thanked him for allowing him room to turn around and brought him a gift. That sure sounds like harassment to me! The guy had PTSD and God knows what else. And a person who reached out to him with kindness and gifts was rewarded by being shot to death. It's hard to see what other side exists.

Mom in Ill..........Judge did not let him walk. You are making things up to fit your notions. This guy has not had his trial yet. How did judge let him walk? He was out on bail for what was a misdemeanor charge? Are you suggesting that they should simply lock him up with no trial?

Madness, threatening someone with a gun is a felony in every stat I ever lived in, and shooting at an occupied vehicle should surely be. He should never have had the gun to shoot the driver. Massive FAIL on part of judicial system in this town

@ John

Agreed, at the minimum he was brandishing which itself is a felony, much less actually firing his weapon. He should have never been on bail and even if he was he should have been required to surrender all of his firearms until after the court hearings.

He was not guilty. No trial. No guilt. Its called due process.

madness, taking guns from a man accused of threatening others with a gun has nothing to do with guilt, it has everything to do with protecting the community from a potential threat, which turned out to be much more than potential. I'm sure that Mr. Poland's family takes great comfort in the fact that his murderer didn't have his Second Amendment rights taken away.

@John Bryant- Exactly, a massive Judicial System fail... That's one area that folks should start working to fix... Mental Health Care (for the civilians and military) is another area!

Now everyone...start brainstorming for realistic ways to get that child safely out of that bunker....

11madness,

He shot at a neighbor's car. He brandished a weapon in a threatening manner. The entire neighborhood was scared of the guy. The judge had it within his power to do a 5150 on the guy and send him in for evaluation. He also could have ordered that his guns be confiscated since he had used them already to menace people. The judge didn't do that, either. The judge was remiss and in dereliction of his duty. When a person poses a clear and obvious threat to the public well-being our judiciary does have options to neutralize that threat. It is just fortunate that he didn't decide to pull an Adam Lanza on that bus and kill another 20 kids. This is an example of a broken system.

Odorless ...Should have spell-checked

Or if that's not possible, even pepper spray to incapacitate the lunatic long enough to get down there and grab him may do the trick. (Yes, I do understand that it would hurt the child too, but pepper spray is not lethal, correct? The child would survive the pepper spray, but he may not survive being stuck down there with this nutjob too much longer.) :(

@ JOHN

Do you have notes taped to your shoes to tie them, when you wake up?

You are a Moron......Get out of your Mothers Basement and try to be a Man.....Maybe that's too much to ask.

11madness ..... What makes you think he's a "crazy gun nut"?

Crazy? Yes.

If he used a kitchen knife to kill the bus driver would that make him a "crazy kitchen knife nut"?

aaahhhh ... never mind. If I rambled on you clearly wouldn't get my point anyway.

My prayers go out to the little kid and his family.

burgh - what makes anyone think he's a crazy gun nut? Um, the part where he was a crazy gun nut?

Burgh, he is holed up in a bunker with a kidnapped child after he murdered a gentle bus driver attempting to protect his children. And he used, what? A gun... There's your gun nut, pal. In the hole still with a poor little baby boy, so turn your guns in please, if you can't make that connection...

Unless you are the child or his parents.