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A South Florida man strangled his two young sons with a rope at his estranged wife’s house and then used a gun to shoot one of the boys several times before he shot himself to death, authorities said Saturday afternoon.
Police say Isidro Zavala, 45, early Saturday went to the Boynton Beach home of his wife with the intention of killing her and their children, Eduardo Zavala, 12, and Mario Zavala, 11.
At the crime scene, detectives found a blue bag with a second firearm, extra ammunition, duct tape, cutting shears and a note addressed to Zavala's oldest son, who was not at the residence during the killings, police said.
Isidro Zavala carried out his plan, but with an exception: He spared his wife, Victoria Flores Zavala, 36, so that she could suffer, police said.
“What Mrs. Zavala had to go through -- watch her children killed before her -- is probably the most horrific thing you could ever imagine, at least for me,” said Boynton Beach Police Chief G. Matthew Immler, saying that he himself is a parent.
The motive for the killing "is just speculation at this point," Immler said.
Victoria Flores Zavala contacted police, who arrived at her house in the 400 block of Southwest Eighth Avenue about 1:50 a.m. Saturday.
Officers found one child dead in a back screened patio area. A second child was found dead in the kitchen dining room area. Officers found Isidro Zavala’s body in the kitchen, police said.
Victoria Zavala said that her husband killed their children, police said. She said she and her husband had been separated and that he no longer lived in the house.
She told detectives that she was watching TV when she heard commotion in the house, went to check on her children and saw Isidro Zavala choking one of his sons, police said.
Then he killed them. Mario was the boy who was shot repeatedly, police said. The mother had tried to stop her spouse.
“She tried fighting him off and begged him to kill her and not the children,” Boynton Beach police spokeswoman Stephanie Slater said in a press release. “He told her she was going to stay alive and suffer the loss of them.”
Detectives obtained a warrant to search the house, as well as a house in the 1100 block of Southeast Third Street, where Isidro Zavala had been living, police said.
The Zavalas have a 19-year-old son who does not live with his family and was not there when the killings occurred, police said. The note found at the crime scene addressed to him said something to the effect that "he was a good son," police said.
Detectives have called the state Department of Children and Families to investigate. “It should be noted that there is no history of reports of domestic violence or abuse noted at the house,” Slater said.
The Zavala couple married in 1993, records show. In 1999, the pair signed a $73,700 mortgage on the home where the killings occurred, Palm Beach County records show.
In October last year, Victoria Flores Zavala filed for divorce from her husband in Palm Beach County, a case that records showed was still listed as pending.
Immler called Saturday's case "an unusually brutal type of murder," but said such murder-suicide cases unfortunately have been known to happen.
"And certainly I’ve seen it over the years of being a police officer, that there are mentally disturbed people out there who commit these types against their own family members, against their own loved ones," he said.
The police chief turned his attention to the surviving Zavalas.
"Hopefully, as time passes, perhaps their wounds will heal. I doubt it," he said. "You know, I don’t believe you could ever recover from something like this.
"Hopefully, the surviving Zavalas can get the help they need and somehow go on with life."
Leave a Comment:
So, before the grabbers start their rants, note that Isidro Zavala has at least two mugshots online.
It is likely he was not a "legal" gunowner.
You're assuming that because he is Hispanic, either his weapon, he himself or both were illegal? What a piece of work you are!
Yes.If not illegal,the children of.We have enough trash in this country already.Grow a set mr pc
OR.....She killed the kids, then shot him...then blamed him....
Cappy, did you fail reading comprehension? MPA said he was a not a legal gun owner, not that he was an illegal alien.
What striked me is the horrific headline. Once again, why did he simply not just kill himself. WHY the kids. Is there really that much hate in some peoples heart. I feel soooooo sorry for this mother!!!! I live about 30 minutes away from Boynton Beach Florida with is right outside Boca Raton, FL. It is a nice community. Again, I do not have the ability to compute this type of crime. RIP little boys.
NoMoreTax
I agree with you, an it has been my experience that most liberals seem to suffer from some sort of reading disability. I think it stems from the same brain damage that causes Liberalism.
To clarify to the liberals, (perhaps I am mistaken, but this is my read on the comment) MPA stated that there were "at least two mugshots online" Which, if they were connected to some felony, that would bar him from owning guns. Or it would make him "not a "legal" gun owner" As far as I could tell, MPA made no reference to the "Legal" status of this guys "residence" in this country.
Please do try to pay attention.
Ban handguns.
I'll cut Cappy some slack as he is usually on the mark. Early superbowl party maybe?? There are just alot of mentally sickos out there and they use anything at hand to kill. I hope the mother can get past this which will take alot of time and therapy I guess.......
MPA - really?!!? After a horrific story of domestic violence like this all you can do is rant about "gun-grabbers"???!!
Oh yeah, that's right MPA - all that matters are YOUR INDIVIDUAL completely unfettered 2nd amendment rights over everything, everybody else. Talk about living in an "entitlement' society. Despicable.
Florida..enough said.
To take a different point of view: What did the mother do to him to push him over the edge so that he committed this horrific crime? What did she do that made him want to seek revenge by making her "suffer"? Nothing excuses his behavior but just suspect there is more to this than he just went spontaneously "crazy" and killed them and himself.
Your name suits you farmboy. Having a mugshot doesn't mean much. It doesn't mean conviction of a crime or even a felony. As far as you know he was one of your "responsible law-abiding gun holders". And how do you know the gun wasn't hers in the first place? Do try to think, I know it's hard for conservatives to see anything other than their "no true scotsman" logical fallacies.
Looks like they will need to outlaw rope as well this time
The article had two mug shots. Both of Vanilla Ice.
Hummmmmmmmmmmmm ... Duct tape must be banned ... it's being used in the commission of crimes in a far higher proportion than other tape or materials ....
There ya go, guns don't kill people, ropes kill people! Where there's a will, there's a way... if not by gun then unfortunately it will surely (and even easier) be something else. So don't blame the weapon, blame the hand that wields it!
Florida again?
@Cappy
Mugshots=criminal
Convicted criminals cannot legally own a weapon!
DUMBASS!!
Pandora6
There is absolutely nothing on the face of this planet she could do to warrant this in any way. I have to question what would even make you think like that.
Cappy-1911
I see your comment was collapsed. Mmm must have hit pretty close to home for these righties who think every single hispanic person in america must be here illegally. Even more sad that their only comments are about that, without ONE single thought to the two young boys who were MURDERED.
For the mother and older son. Thoughts for you.
TerryFromWeatherfordTX
Nope... but amazing the 20 CHILDREN in Sandy... were MURDERED because a legal GUN OWNER allowed her guns to be used by another LEGAL gun owner.
Typical... of the "responsible gun owners' to accept "NO responsibility"
Antistupidity
Anti-humanity. The herd thins itself....Sweet.
Well Antistupidity, it seems clear you need to quell your stupidity quotient and study some psychology.
Pandora you can not be serious. To even ask the question what did the mother do to provoke this is just another attempt to blame the victim. I agree with Antistupidity, there is nothing a person could do to justify someone committing such a horrible act. I can not even imagine the grief the mother must feel and the survivor guilt that she will suffer for the rest of her life. I do not know how you recover from that. Some people are simply so evil, that just the divorce might have pushed him over the edge.
What is going on with the State of Florida, anyway?
Why is so much news about bizarre things happening in this state, ending up so frequently nowadays, on the front pages of supermarket tabloids like the National Enquirer, The Star, Weekly World News, etc.?
So what, is Florida in some kind of unofficial, nationwide competition to become, " Number One," for the most amount of strange tragedies, that also occurs in the Lone Star State of Texas?
Third World Country men are convinced they can....Wait!, these wierdo males are NOT men and think they can be the 'final law" with women including toture and murder. Don't let the Slime into OUR Country, America before they are checked out. This guy is yet Another NutJob on the loose. let His Home country deal with his "baggage".
I agree completely with Antistupidity on this. And, Pandora6, I have studied psychology--I suggest either crack usage or a brain tumor will be discovered.
Well ElkMeadow, I guess we will have to wait and see what turns up.
PURE EVIL!
Is it really that hard for you to compute a separation and a woman using her kids to get back at the father? Probably accused him of molesting them to get custody and the house. So your looking at a Father that can not see his kids, lost the marriage and the house and may be accused of molesting the children. So he gets a gun and decides to take out the kids and shoot himself so she gets nothing but a house payment which she may not be able to even make and force her to live daily with the reminder of what she did. You can't see how that would cause a man to do something like this? Wow!
Of course this is pure speculation, but I have seen what a ex-friend of mine did to her husband and it almost makes me want to throw up. People can only take so much before the blow. Given the right circumstance anyone can kill.
Oh and by looking at all your posts in different articles, I see you are always saying how can someone do this or that. Really, are you that ignorant of today's society?
P.s. Another gun shooting again, I see nothing wrong with that do you? Sarcasm!
TerryFromWeatherfordTX
Mugshots=criminal - WRONG - mugshots = arrested, not convicted.
Convicted criminals cannot legally own a weapon! = WRONG - convicted FELONS cannot own a weapon.
DUMBASS!!
So that makes it all right??? Really??? You need to examine your moral center, little guy. We need broad ranging gun control to protect our children, our families, and our communities from gun enthusiasts like you. Now, more than ever, it is the right thing to do.
For those of you who continue to rant about Florida...most of the people living in Florida were not born in Florida. They moved there from other states and countries. So, these deranged people who commit heinous crimes were probably your next door neighbors before they headed south. You have no room to criticize or complain.
You know, scales, you have just given a solid reason for enacting broad ranging gun control legislation. Thanks for your help!
Gun control. Now, more than ever, it is the right thing to do!
Pandora6 - really? You're trying to blame the mother for what the father did???
brenda1964
So he wanted to torture her, what about the eldest son, just inexcusable.
Brenda, You are the least intelligent person to post in a while. WHAT?:
Is it really that hard for you to compute a separation and a woman using her kids to get back at the father?
Oh and by looking at all your posts in different articles, I see you are always saying how can someone do this or that. Really, are you that ignorant of today's society?
You MUST BE KIDDING ME???????? I am not ignorant TO SQWAT. I am just taken aback and simply shocked. You obvoiusly are settled in in mind and company with losers. The society I am MAINLY exposed to would not concieve of these actions.
I am sorry to dissapoint you, buy I am no wall flower crying on the sideliners.
Alverant
OMG, you did not just say that. That is hilarious. You prove my point. Reading comprehension is evidently not your strong suit. I must definitely come from the same brain damage that causes Liberalism.
I wrote ""IF" they are connected to some felony" I was speculating. I was venturing a guess. I was offering up a POSSIBLE explanation, and it pertained TO ONLY WHAT MPA STATED. DUH.
I was merely trying to point out to the other losers, that MPA was not, in my opinion, calling the man an Illegal Immigrant, and therefore was not being a racist pig as charged by the other idiots. But instead, MPA was pointing out that he probably had obtained the guns ILLEGALLY. This was MPA view point NOT MINE.
Of course I know that having a mugshot "on the internet" is not a conviction. And he may very well have been,"responsible law-abiding gun holders," up until the point this woman drove him to this. (And yes, I have personal experience with a case very similar to this) Not saying it excuses either case, but I do in fact KNOW, that women can intentionally drive a person to snap, even if this is not their intended outcome. (Men can do it to women too, I try not to be sexist, even if I am a chauvinist) So in conclusion the guns may have very well been his. They may have been hers. As per usual the reporting in this article is designed to elicit an emotional response, and it has very little actual real information, that would answer normal questions posed by reasonable, critically thinking readers.
I no longer live on a farm, hence the "Dumb" part. The worst thing I ever did was get a Degree in Mechanical Engineering, move to the City and have to live in and amongst bigoted, myopic, inane morons like you. (see, I can name call too)
Someone once said, "It is wisest, to remain silent, and be thought the fool, than to open your mouth, and remove all doubt." Next time, try to pay attention to what was actually written. You may even need to read a couple more comments, as some of the comments may include references to or from them.
And before you start calling or implying someone is Dumb, it is best you have your own house in order.
Now, what kind of "Logical Fallacy" do they call that?
He probably wasn't a legal gun owner, but probably had someone who could be a legal gun owner purchase them for him. This is known as a "straw man purchase." And the NRA and the rest of the other gun freaks want to keep this legal, because they don't care how many people die, as long as they keep kissing the gun manufacturers' butts, that's all their concerned about. Oh yes, and U.N. black helicopters and making sure they have plenty of tin foil to keep the government from reading their thoughts.
You say you are not ignorant, but then in the next sentance you say you are taken aback. Which is it, ignorant or not? How can you be taken aback on every article you post to if you are not ignorant as to the ways of the world. You don't dissapoint me, you discust me. You make women seem so fragile and can't believe what is going on around them. Grow a pair, get your panties unbunched and live in reality and not this fantasy world you seem to live in.
The only thing the gun allowed him to do easily was kill himself. He strangled the boys to death, and could likely have killed the wife without a gun. (Why shoot the boy after he strangled him, I have no idea.)
I'm happy he had a gun in this instance so he could take his own worthless life.
My heart goes out to the mother.
Hey..... DumbFarmBoy.....Again you must deal with Fools......love the Aspersions..... SmartCityManNow you are casting your Pearls before Swine (Puns are intended Farmboy). ....... Was the man just this side of Deranged???? ........We do not KNOW all the Details of the Facts that caused him to Snap??...........People we need to go after the CRIMES not the GUNS!!!!!!.....Appeasement never Wins!!
No, no, you got it all wrong…
What is the common element in all of these crimes whether the weapon is a knife, a rope, a bat or a handgun? I'll tell you. The perpetrator has HANDS that were used to wield the weapon!
If we ban HANDS then these horrible offenses would stop regardless of the weapon. And while the second amendment states that people have the right to bear ARMS it does not say a darn thing about the HANDS at the end of these arms so there is no issue there.
Now, the government can have my hands when they pry them from my cold dead… err… hands, but that is beside the point.
This is Sailcat-2064101 opinion about the second amendment after proving facts about what the Forefather intent for the 2nd was"
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/31/16791677-texas-assistant-da-shot-to-death-at-least-one-gunman-sought?threadId=3657131&commentId=73861989#c73861989
#1.87
So as you see, he is one of the liberals that like to try to reinterpret the Constitution to their way of thinking verses the true intent of the Constitution.
Ignore him..........
The purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to allow the people the ability to fight by against a tyrannical government.
A. The Federalist Papers, No. 28: Alexander Hamilton expressed that when a government betrays the people by amassing too much power and becoming tyrannical, the people have no choice but to exercise their original right of self-defense — to fight the government.[Halbrook, p. 67]
B. The Federalist Papers, No. 29: Alexander Hamilton explained that an armed citizenry was the best and only real defense against a standing army becoming large and oppressive. [Halbrook, p. 67]
C. The Federalist Papers, No. 46: James Madison contended that ultimate authority resides in the people, and that if the federal government got too powerful and overstepped its authority, then the people would develop plans of resistance and resort to arms. [Halbrook, p. 67]
D. There was no National Guard, and the Founders opposed anything but a very small national military. The phrase “well-regulated” means well-trained and disciplined — not “regulated” as we understand that term in the modern sense of bureaucratic regulation. [This meaning still can be found in the unabridged Oxford English Dictionary, 2d ed. 1989, Vol 13, p. 524, and Vol 20. p. 138.]
E. The Federalists promised that state governments and citizen militias would exist to make sure the federal military never became large or oppressive. To say that the National Guard replaces the notion of the militia runs contrary to what the Founders said and wrote.
F. The Third Amendment: Expressly restrains the federal government from building a standing army and infiltrating it among the people ...and at the people’s expense ... in times of peace. The Third Amendment runs against the idea of a permanent standing army or federalized National Guard in principle, if not by its words.
*********
CHALLENGE TO AMERICANS
As you read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights:
And then consider that law students and future lawyers likewise have received precious little education about the Second Amendment.
Realize, too, that the judges know just about as little. Then imagine how little the average American knows — based on the average public school coverage of the Constitution.
The protection of our sacred right of self-defense against both petty criminals and oppressive government — the right of civilians to keep and bear arms — is in your hands.
http://jpfo.org/filegen-n-z/six-about-2nd.htm
The term well regulated militia does not mean as you say. If the term well regulated meant what you say it did, then it would imply training, practice, and discipline. Couple that with the term militia and you would get the meaning that a group of people were well regulated or trained as we would say, to work together. Still I do not see that practice in today's society. We just have a bunch of people getting guns and most not even trained to use them properly, let alone as part of a militia. Nice try.
@brenda1964: I gave you the purpose of the 2nd Amendment, that is all I did. Remember the 9th and 10th Amendments. You haven't given a rebuttal to anything I have given you, which are pure facts.
Also, there at 1200 militia groups in the USA (not including the National Guard). What state you live in and I will send you a list of your local groups as well. The great State of Texas where I live has its own Army and Air Force that DOES NOT answer to the President but to the Governor ONLY, this is considered a militia:
Militia groups in US grows to more than 1,200
http://www.wsoctv.com/news/news/local/militia-groups-us-grows-more-1200/nTCnJ/
Oh, and there are a group of 1,100 Green Berets who signed petition against gun control:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jan/31/1100-green-berets-petition-against-gun-control/
http://texasstatemilitia.com/
VERI IMPETRO EOS (COME AND TAKE IT!)
All, my original comment was in response to MPA putting quotes around "legal." I read that to mean that he was questioning the legality of his gun ownership and basing it on his mugshot. The fact that his mugshot shows that he is Hispanic, I thought he was trying to be clever with a double entendre. If I read that wrong, I apologize.
I would agree with the post, wire. What a piece of work you are - racist commentary.
Vince, no one wants to keep "strawman" purchases legal. They are already illegal and everyone is fine with that. Get your facts straight.
hmm... let me guess... In today's society, I wonder what it would be.... let's see...
How about, she was about to divorce him (or had already) because she found another guy. Then she was going to be rewarded with a bagful of money from 'child support' and 'alimony' proceedings as the courts handed full custody over to her.
Yeah, sounds about right...
The motive was that he was a hateful POS that planned this as revenge against his soon-to-be ex-wife. There isn't enough detail given to come up with any other motive. There is absolutely no justification for killing your children to destroy your wife. None!
Mentally disturbed? Perhaps, but not crazy enough to not know what he was doing was wrong.
I chalk it up to another selfish, egomaniacal parent who cared more about revenge than his own kids.
Please people. If you are that petty by nature, just don't have children.
j70141 in Colorado
You are correct, the motive is speculation. And I see a lot of comments on "this evil man" or "How could a man do this?" Where are the question, "What did she do to deserve this?" "What did she do to drive him to WANT to make her suffer?" Maybe she did nothing other than divorce a possessive, abusive piss poor excuse for a man. Maybe she had it coming, you know there are actually cases, where you can 'blame' the "victim". (Not that is excuses the actions of the perpetrator, it goes to the Cause and Fault argument)
Yep, pretty much sums up the situation I was privy to as mentioned in 1.42. A good friend of mine was going through a messy divorce, (come to find out after all this, his, youngest, wasn't his, yet he was going to get stuck for child support) the last time I talked to him, they were ready to sign the papers. The next thing I heard, (On the evening news, my friend lived a couple hundred miles away,) he had shot her dead. I guess she had to push that "Go" button one more time. And trust me, she had been pounding the hell out of it leading up to this. And he took it and took it, he still loved her, even after he found out about the affair.
Are you serious Dumb Farmboy? You honestly think that there's a possibility that this woman DESERVED to have her children murdered by their father?
@ Kari Anne
Are you serious Dumb Farmboy? You honestly think that there's a possibility that this woman DESERVED to have her children murdered by their father?
#1.61
"(Not that is excuses the actions of the perpetrator, it goes to the Cause and Fault argument)"
"it has been my experience that most liberals seem to suffer from some sort of reading disability. I think it stems from the same brain damage that causes Liberalism."
"Please do try to pay attention."
If you will notice, I was SPECULATING on the motive. No, I do not believe the woman "Deserved" this. And I guess I have not yet pointed it out on this vine, but the MSM, and MSNBC/NBC.news in particular, are not very good at reporting the whole story. They typically print only that which furthers their agenda, leaving those of us with critical thinking ability to speculate upon that which was left out of the article.
I was merely pointing out, based on personal experience, there may be more to this story, and perhaps she shares some of the culpability through her actions. Perhaps NOT. Does this mean I approve of what he (my friend or this guy) did? HELL NO!! Are there perhaps mitigating circumstances? we don't know. I was just trying to point out an alternative view point.
@ Cappy-1911
Thank you for clarifying that. I had not considered the "double entendre", which would actually make the comment kind of funny, given the typical sarcastic nature of a double entendre, and the lack of any real info in the article.
Perhaps your reading skills aren't clouded as I presumed. For that, I apologize.
Ah, Florida. The headlines would be so boring and non-violent without you and Texas to keep things lively on the internet. What a wonderfully entertaining culture you propagate. Is it possible the extra solar exposure is mutating your DNA to create a race of self-destructive zombies?
Brenda: spell check. It is your friend.
So you are saying that everyone who owns a gun is part a well regulated militia? I think not. I think you are just trying to justify by any means possible to own a gun. Sorry, just not biting.
Thanks Jeanette-767450, I keep forgetting the hall monitors are always watching so they can quickly correct everyone and their posts. Wish they also had a hall monitor check.
LookingForwardtotheFuture,
Anyone can form a militia. To Brenda1964's point that anyone can own a gun and there's little real training. Did you thoroughly read the article that you provided the link to? It sounds like the militia in that article was created for self importance (ie. ego). They have "secret" training? Probably because they're afraid they'll be ridiculed. At least they sound harmless at least if none of his militia gets carried away.
You should also read this article about milita from out of town that came to my city and the leader planned a murder leaving no eyewitnesses so that she could get a measly $4000 for her militia. A man and his 9 year old daughter were killed(the daughter pretty much executed as she begged not to be shot) but the mother survived and the bad guys (militia) were caught and sentenced to death. :
Hmm_Seriously?
Let's not confuse "Para-Military" organization with the "Militia" shall we. Even though the MSM calls them "militia" they are in fact not. The True Militia is the able bodied men, of a certain age range, of the State, not a group of like minded individuals, who may have "militia" in their organization's name.
@ Brenda
Also, as per the SCOTUS decisions of 2008 and 2010, gun ownership, is no longer (it never was, in fact) tied to service in a State Militia.
The US Constitution created the Federal Government, and set limits upon it. Among those limits, is that it shall not "Infringe upon a Citizens Right to keep and bear arms". The US and State Constitutions do not grant, guarantee, or other wise give us our Rights. As US Citizens, WE ARE BORN WITH THEM, as in "Endowed by our Creator".
Incorrect, the Minute Men where the Militia the state used at a minutes notice to protect the state. Each man was handed a rifle, gun powder, and amo to be at the ready.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minutemen
If this guy had not had a gun, he would have used the rope, or a knife. This one was not preventable using any sort of gun law, or even common sense. This is one that was not preventable, unless you want to start testing everyone and locking up the unstable. That's probably going too far. But no, this is not a gun violence case that demonstrates something preventable.
Look up Militia act of 1903. The National Guard is the organized militia.
The un-organized is the men eligible for the draft and not part of the organized militia.
Its in the law books as well that unorganized militia are members not of the organized militia.
Go research people, you have given nothing but your own subjective opinions on what you think the 2nd means. I have provided documentation to back mine up, where is yours?
http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/10C13.txt
10 USC CHAPTER 13 - THE MILITIA 01/03/2012 (112-90) TITLE 10 - ARMED FORCES Subtitle A - General Military Law PART I - ORGANIZATION AND GENERAL MILITARY POWERS CHAPTER 13 - THE MILITIA CHAPTER 13 - THE MILITIA Sec. 311. Militia: composition and classes. 312. Militia duty: exemptions. 10 USC Sec. 311 01/03/2012 (112-90) TITLE 10 - ARMED FORCES Subtitle A - General Military Law PART I - ORGANIZATION AND GENERAL MILITARY POWERS CHAPTER 13 - THE MILITIA Sec. 311. Militia: composition and classes (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard. (b) The classes of the militia are - (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.The above (2) is militia
brenda1964
Brenda1964, I am going to try and be as nice as I can be here, but don't presume to lecture me about American history, or any thing else for that matter. I have already forgotten more knowledge than you will ever have, especially when it comes to the 2nd Amendment and firearms. I am not going to berate you on your reading comprehension skills. I am not going to say that you are stuck on stupid, "that special kind of stupid", as Sam Eliot says, because you seem unable to accept the Truth and the Facts. You seem to want to try and rationalize your position, so you won't have to admit you are WRONG.
I have no idea where or when "Minute Men" came into the conversation. But yeah, they are a sub group of militia, sort of like the Marine's "Ready Action Forces". So what?
The point you seem to fail to grasp is that my fundamental Right to "Keep and Bear Arms", is, was and always shall be, a birth right. It is my Right, it is my Right to Life. It is based in the belief of our Founding Fathers understanding of Natural Law. And the first Law of Nature is survival of the Individual, or the instinct of self preservation. It is not contingent upon, it never was contingent upon, my serving in a Militia. PERIOD. It is contingent upon my ability, my responsibility, my duty, to defend myself (My Life) from my fellow citizens and my Government intent on doing me harm.
Yes, the Founding Fathers understood this concept, it was after all the "Era of Enlightenment", and you should b e proud of the Liberals who founded this Great Nation, for they were TRUE liberals. You should read some old history books some time. I am talking about those published before the revisionists of the 60's started rewriting American History.
So, technically speaking, any Federal restriction, any hindrance, any financial burden, any formality, any Federal Regulation, is an infringement upon that right. Any Federal Legislation involving firearms is UNCONSTITUTIONAL. PERIOD. This is not me talking, this is the compilation of writings just about every member of the Constitutional Convention, 1787. Unfortunately we have several Supreme Court Justices who read the Constitution backwards like you do, from the position that the Bill of Rights grants us our Freedoms. IT DOES NOT. THE BILL OF RIGHTS, ARE THE RESTRICTIONS PLACED UPON OUR GOVERNMENT, as it relates to our Rights. Got it.
LookingForwardtotheFuture
Well, kinda, sorta, but not quite anymore.
Taking it one more step away from true Militia, and one more step too Standing Army.
Basically it is in reference to Article 1, section 8, but the way the previous Acts affected the Militia, to me this truly nullifies these forces as Militia (Primarily under the Control of the State), placing them under the control of the Federal Government.
Face it, facts are facts and unless you are part of a well ordered militia then you do not have the right to bear arms. I know the supreme court says otherwise, but the constitution disagrees.
I am sorry you fail to grasp simple logic and your history knowledge is severely lacking, but facts are facts. If you went to the website that describes what the minute men where and what their purpose was for and when they came about, you would have known that they where what the constitution was talking about when they said well ordered militia. Since you do not want to know the real history and want to make up some weird fantasy of how things are, be my guest, but it does not change the fact that you are ignorant. Sorry, call it like i see it. I realize that you want to rationalize at any cost the fact that you want to own a gun, but you are simply wrong.
@ brenda1964 LOL
I gave you the facts, where are yours?
As a matter of fact, if you are not male and between 17 and 45, you are not considered militia.... So, unless you are in the National Guard, ladies, this old law seems to indicate that you can't have guns. Now, I am sure we can get this changed, but the 17 to 45 part sure does catch my eye, because I know Ted Nugent is over 45...
@Dennis-816242 Dennis, anyone between 17 and 45 is in a militia, whether they want to be or not.
(b) The classes of the militia are - (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.brenda1964
Well, I guess I was wrong, you are stuck on stupid. You are still trying to base your argument on the "Militia" defense. And as I said, the Authors of the Constitution did not see it that way. This is a modern interpretation of Constitution, taken out of context. Let's try this again.
Ok, From the Declaration of Independence: (you know, the same guys who wrote the Constitution)
The same sentiment was carried through to the Constitution, and no, I have not found a single quote from any of them proclaiming this. This comes from reading a myriad of books, "The Federalist Papers", "Anti Federalist Papers", "The Constitution for Dummies", a multitude of quotes from the Founding Fathers, etc, culminating in that conclusion. As I said before, The Constitution is an extension of the Declaration.
So according to the Authors of the Declaration, and the Constitution, we are all born with our Rights. And as duly pointed out in the Declaration and in the Bill of Rights, I have the Right to life, and no one, except for the Government, but only after due process, may deny me of that. And I have the Right to defend that life. Do I not? So, how does having to be associated with a militia have any bearing on my Right to "Keep and Bear Arms" in self defense?
The Authors also recognized two facts. That individuals needed the means to defend themselves and their property from those that would cause them harm. And that eventually, my guess it they thought sooner than later, the Government would become corrupt and need forcible change or Eviction. They worded the 2nd amendment as they did to recognize the need to ensure the Government knew it was always at the mercy of the People, not the other way around. They also placed it in the Category of Individual Rights, on the basis, that to them it was an individual's Right.
And quit reading the Constitution as if it were the giver of Rights. It is the limits placed upon the Government, not we citizens.
The Government may not "Abridge the Freedom of Speech", "Abridge the Freedom of the Press" nor "shall it infringe upon the Right to Keep and Bear Arms" (recognizing an armed populace, i.e. a "militia", is necessary to "Guarantee" the Freedoms, and Rights)
Even so, by your account, "all able-bodied men between the ages of 16 and 60 were required to participate in their local militia". how does this square with the fact that many states have age limits (must be 21 yrs old to own certain firearms)? What are the requirement to be in the "Militia"? You must own a gun? What else? You must be a Man? Rather discriminatory don't you think?
I can make it no plainer, The Right to Keep and Bear Arms is an individual Right, not contingent upon service in a Militia, and even if it were, the mere fact that so many definitions of militia are "armed citizens" it becomes futile to delineate any particular requirement.
And the National Guard is no longer the State's Militia. As I pointed out above, it has been co-opted by the Federal Government, making it a Reserve force for the Standing Army. If it had not been, then why did so many Democrat Governors allow Bush to call them up for service in Iran? They had no choice, is why.
sorry, I guess I am still not allowed to post direct links, you have to copy and paste.
catb.org/~esr/guns/quotes.html
@ to all the posters that hate florida stay away problem solved
Another 'can you believe it' story from the armpit of the nation. Can the rest of us secede from Florida?
What an evil POS.
Ooops! Did it again. Twice.
Just plain sick.
At some time the husband probably made the threat....and she didn't believe him....too bad she couldn't move or thought she couldn't move, because once these guys get the divorce decree and separate, they are CRAZY with revenge. Ladies, please move and take cover.
Maybe she did and bought a gun. You know the gun used to kill her children.
Alverant had you actually READ the story you would know one of them was strangled to death with a rope. You probably want to outlaw those too.
Rope kills people- time to start rope control. Register all rope; you must have a license to own a piece longer than 6" .
Dyneema, Spectra, Vectrus all require special permits.
That will solve the rope murder problem.
False equivalency - tens of thousands killed by guns, a handful by rope.
Yeah Theo, but the argument is two dimensional and easy to repeat and it's the best they can come up with to defend themselves from reality.... It's their mantra. Don't try to take the argument any higher, it's pointless.
Yeah right 10's of 1000's killed by guns and a hand full by rope.
First of all in case if the guy had a mug shot he was a Criminal,if he had the gun it 9 chances out of 10 HE ILLEGALLY OWNED IT!
Secondly all those 10's of 1000's you're blabbing about are Gang Members! Gang Members do not obey the law!74% of the shootings in this country are done by these clowns/gang members.
Third,those guns the gangs use are,read up one more time,ARE ILLEGAL!
I agree with previous posts. I believe that the constitution permits gun for both individual protection and to prevent the government from becoming too powerful. Obviously, they had just freed themselves from just such a situation. I am not ignorant of history but would not say I am a scholar but even when I was learning about the revolution and the constitution, I thought this was the point of the second ammendment. You really don't hear anyone really bring up that point much. At least in the media. Anyone who brought up this point would probably come under great scrutiny or harrasment.
A mug shot is taken when arrested; then comes innocent until proven guilty. Do you believe that everyone who is arrested is automatically guilty? I hope you are never asked to serve on jury duty. There are many cases that are dropped because there is not enough evidence to use to bring them to trial. And yes; there are people who get away with a lot of things because a jury is not supposed to convict unless they believe that they are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. However; with more people like you, why even have a trial? And no; I am not a bleeding heart liberal; I am an independent thinker who uses my brain and does not let myself get sucked into only one way of thinking.
As for this being a crime of passion where the guy just snapped; I hardly think so. He went into the house and started killing the children; this sounds like a calculated act of revenge against his wife with the kids being used as adding salt to the wounds. He also left a note for his eldest son; sound like a guy who just snapped. Premeditation can be charged if there was any indication that the person had time to think about what he was doing. This man knew he was killing the kids; he hated his wife more than he loved his children. Contrary to what some of the other commenters wrote describing personal situations where the wife drove the man to insanity, this involved the young children. It sounds to me (if we are all going to play psychologist here), this man viewed his wife and children as possessions; and if he couldn't have them, no one else will. It did not say what the grounds for divorce were when the papers were filed; maybe there was another man, maybe he was a cheater and an abuser. Regardless; if he had a gun, he could have just shot the kids, but he chose to strangle them first; this shows an intense cruelty.
How utterly sad and horrific.She didn't even know that he was in the house until she heard the commotion of him strangling one of her son's.Her ex husband either broke into the house or her son let his dad in.A person can never move far enough away from a person such as this ex husband.My deepest condolences to her and her other son.
Yes, it is a jaw dropping and sad article. Chilling in fact.
I'm going to assume that this mother was 5 feet tall and weighed 100 pounds, because I'm 5'10" tall and weigh 200 pounds, and that husband/father would have had his hands full just dealing with me. In other words, he'd have to kill me before he'd kill my kids - over my dead body.
J Hicks . . . we all talk tough about what we would do . . . be careful what you say . . . fate might give you the chance to prove what you would do . . . . God help us all.
She COULD have changed the locks and told her children to lock the doors behind them!
How do you know she didn't? Hindsight doesn't help much after her kids are dead. It sounds like you are blaming the victim.
I would agree. Although i don't know the circumstances, I'd continue to fight him till i couldn't move. There is no way i'd watch someone kill my kids cause i'd be dead, unconscious, or paralyzed but i wouldn't be watching.
J Hicks...is absolutely correct! My first thought was..as soon as I saw my husband killing my son: 1. I have my CPL, so I would have shot him. 2. I would have have thrown myself on him, ANYTHING INCLUDING DYING to stop him.
rkb5555...correct, we don't know all the circumstances...but I couldn't have just stood there while some one killed my sons.
@Andy-4176161 - you don't know me, but if you did, you'd know that I'm a rescuer type of person. Something takes over me when I see someone in distress, particuarly at the hands of another person.
If I saw someone harming my child, God help that person because they'd be lucky to come out alive. I'd take a bullet, a knife, whatever, and it wouldn't even phase me until all the blood were out of my body. NOTHING would stop me from trying to save my child.
I can only surmise that something is wrong with a mother who can watch their children be murdered. Was someone else there holding her down? Did he tie her up first, then murder the children? Or did she just stand there, screaming and crying, saying "stop, stop". Are you kidding me?
For those of you who commented on why the woman wasn't able to save her sons--the article doesn't give us much to go on, not enough info there to really know how and if she was incapacitated enough to not be able to do more. Was she overcome then tied up? Knocked out? Lots of questions still remaining.
One thing I am sure of--anyone who would murder their own children are warped enough that they probably were exhibiting problems before the separation or divorce ever got started. It's one thing for a hounded man or woman to loose it and kill an estranged spouse in the heat of the moment--and that is bad enough and suggests mental instability. But to kill ones own children is beyond the pale.
This reminded me of a case my dad and his partner were called out on. My dad was a Sheriffs' Officer. They were called out on a case where a man had killed his two children by hitting them in the head with a cast-iron skillet. Then he called his ex and told her what he had done. Evil, pure evil. No excuse--children are innocent and have their own lives to live. It's an issue of wanting total possession and power over another human being.
And yet marriage and children is still held up as the ultimate goal for girls . . .
Not for girls, for women, and yes, it is the ultimate goal unless you believe families and children just get in the way. I do agree though that some people just shouldn't attempt it.
OonaOona-
Check out this link, as it relates to a Time magazine front page core featured article full of data.Among other things, it shows single and divorced women are victims of violence,including rape and assault, from boyfriends and exhusbands, at a much higher rate than married women, less well off financially, health wise, etc. It is an eye opener. Other government sites back up the data collected.
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=2101
In this case, a man who was in the process of being divorced, decided for whatever reasons, to make sure his wife would suffer the most horrible way he could think of.By killing their two children.Then himself, so he would not have to stick around and be held accountable. It is having the final last word, having the
ultimate power and control over their marriage and leaving her completely helpless to do anything to change what he has decided to do.
By taking the children away from her through death, he denies her what she loves, more than him, and life itself.He may also hope, she will think to kill herself eventually, because of her extremesuffering.This is the ultimate revenge, and failure to take any responsibility for his behaviors and decisions in the marriage, which led up to her filing for divorce.
Sorry, study or not...what really matters is the type of man you decide to associate with. And yes, most some women are taken by surprise but others just make bad decisions.
And ARand, marriage and kids does not have to be the "ultimate goal" for women, nor if we chose not to have a family do we think they "get in the way." Such a narrow-minded thought process.
vengeful at home, vengeful with Nation, vengeful with Countries. people with HATE, is the problem. MEAN PEOPLE REALLY DO SUCK !!......
Women should be careful who they choose to be the father of their children....Date all the guys you want, sleep with who ever, but always think twice before breeding with some one. And, that goes for men as well...
Ban Takenaka
I don't believe there are zombies in this world but I definitely believe there are horrible killing monsters! This article proves it! I'm just thankful he had the gun to take his own life and saved the taxpayers the cost of a trial and his execution. I'm so sorry for the Mother's and surviving son's tragedy! If you believe in Heaven, you know the 2 younger sons are there, in peace. If you believe in Heaven, you also have to believe in Hell and we all know where the killer is! He will burn eternally!
If I wonder if he was this charming when she first met him?!?!?
@Rittdog-908299 - Actually, it's time to sue the Hardware Store! They should not be selling Rope without a background check first...
He would've had to kill me, I would've never stopped trying to save my child.
I said the same thing - over my dead body! This is one mama bear you don't want to mess with.
But since you both weren't there you have no clue what would have happened. The story wasn't well-written and we don't have a lot of information. Who knows?
you're right ram, but unless i was dead already or at least unconscious, I would never quit fighting.
@1SGFitzsWife4ID - I'm with you. OK RAM, so we weren't there, but we do have a clue as to what happened in the end. And like both FitzsWife and I've said, it would have to be over our dead bodies before anyone would harm our children. If you don't get what we're saying, that's OK. Only mama bears know what we're talking about - right FitzsWife? It's not something that you can debate with us; it's just a fact. It's a natural response to someone trying to hurt our children. You better be prepared to deal with us first, because there is no way in Hell we'll just stand by, crying, and watch our babies be killed - NO WAY IN HELL!!
Right.
I understand the concept of fear, and the fact there would've been a lot of confusion, etc. I'm in no way trying to blame the mother, IF her story is true. How do we know she didn't do the killing and blame it on the estranged husband? There isn't enough info in the article. If she could call the police after, why not call during? I would be more understanding if she were tied up or unconscious.
As a mother myself, I couldn't even imagine the horror of this. I hope the mother gets the help she will surely need, and I hope the male donor of genetic material is dealt with harshly by our justice system, although that will not return the innocent to this world.
After I posted that, I realized that I read that he committed suicide. I think I was so focused on how I felt for the mother and children that I just didn't give much thought to the piece of crap that committed these acts.
I don't want to live on this planet anymore
You're both welcome to leave. You won't be missed, except perhaps by your creditors. Tell us how that breathing thing works out for you afterward.
Mining what?
Dilithium crystals.
I'm sorry folks but there is some really screwed up @!$%# going on in this country right now.
Every generation thinks that there is screwed up crap going on during their lifetime and they are all right. There has always been this kind of evil in the world and there always will be. Some of the horiffic things that people do to loved ones is enough to make you sick. We just hear about it quicker since the internet covers everything that is going on. We hear more about the evil because it is more of a story and we are more likely to read it than we are to read about the good in the world.
Wow,
A modern day male "Medea". I always thought that it was unfair that Euripides stereo typed women as being vindictive enough to kill their own children. Well 3000 years later, I think that are far more vindictive men. My heart goes out to the survivors.
ManinJapan - statistically, the "make the ex suffer by murdering the kids" phenom is almost 100% male dominated, usually in bad divorce situations. It is an extra twisted case to make them observe. Sickening.
Prayers for the mom...
Not True newsgirl24. I hvae seen many cases where the mother kills the children in divorce situations or later on after divorce. More mothers commit child abuse than Fathers and more Mothers kill their children. What this guy did was terrible and sickening but saying this is male dominated is sexist and wrong.
He thought so little of those boys that their only value was to slaughter them to hurt their mother. What a guy!
Now with ropes and guns joining forces to kill the liberals they are surely doomed...
What the h.ll there is now a photo of Obama skeet shooting. That's what the moronic media wanted and received from the morons in the White House. That oughta cut down on the hideous murder rates by guns and horrible incidents like this from occurring. Right!!!
Ban HANDGUNS. Not skeet shooting.
so what is your thought on rope takenaka ? grab the instrument or address the issue ?
OMG - I'm physically ill from reading even the first few sentences of the article. Please God help this surviving mom - I can't imagine the torture she feels.
Why should God help the survivors while he did nothing to stop this from happening in the first place? I guess he was too busy not helping the starving people in Africa or planning out who was going to win the Superbowl.
These days God is too busy making matches for Christian Mingle.com to help anyone that really needs it. They should outlaw that place and put God back to work performing real miracles. ;)
If you're asking why God didn't do this or that, it's because people like u and julianna don't have a clear understanding of the Lord.
It seems we have so much violence however instantaneous news on your phone/Pad/Computer coupled with the media using technology to find the stories that push their agendas makes it a very segued source of data.
Millions of good people did loving and wonderful things yesterday. But what fun is that? MSNBC - the what to make things better by pointing out the minuscule.
What the hell are you talking about? Do you think having your kids killed in front of you is minuscule?
Scott,
No, what B.P.A.C. is pointing out, is the vast majority of people are good, only a minuscule number of people do these evil things, but the media only trumpets the horrible events, and never mentions the good things that happen.
Probably because shock sells.
A very poor choice of words because that's not how it reads. I get what you're saying though.
I just can't imagine anything worse than having to watch one of my kids die like that! What a coward to off himself so he couldn't be punished!
If somebody did that to my kids, I'd have a special kind of justice waiting for them!
I understand your feelings, but nothing you could do would bring them back or ease the pain of your loss.
Any jungle animal mother would fight to the death to protect her offspring, for example, female grizzlies and lionesses. How come humans find it so easy to let this happen?
Oh seriously. Judging a woman you never met and don't know a thing about? We don't know if he whacked her and knocked her down or what happened...I don't think anything that day was easy for her. You weren't there.
I think she did raise a fool.
The mental breakdown of our society has begun!
Just wait a few months until gas and milk are $10.00 / gallon.
Then it's going to get really crazy.
Got a gun yet?
What an idiot. You really think that's what caused this? Maybe the rednecks will go crazy. Wait, that's when beer goes up.
And the libs will break when their foodstamps are cut off along with the free 0bamma phones and section 8 housing!
It'll never happen
Once the prices of oil go through the roof, and it will at some point, then everything, not just gas and milk, will skyrocket in price.
Before I even clicked on this story, I said to myself, 'What do you wanna bet this happened in Florida". And voila! All the nuts roll down to Florida.
Elizabeth...I'm not a Floridian, but the highest murder rate is in Chicago...regardless of how lives are taken, it's all nutty.
The city with the highest murder rate in the country is New Orleans. Chicago is sixteenth, believe it or not.
Florida has wayyyyy more people than Chicago. So while the murder rate in Chicago might be higher, the actual total number of muders in the entire state of Florida is larger than in Chi-town...
This has been your daily math and statistics lesson, brought to you by the number 69...
Mentally unstable, even that statement doesn't seem to cover these types of people anymore.
How does anyone sane, insane or otherwise take the life of their own kids much less the life of any loved one?
I wish I had the answer on how to identify these type of people but sadly I do not and they are over the world just waiting for that one little thing to set them off like a timer on a bomb.
I have no problem with anyone owning a firearm if they are legally able to do so but people will always find a way to obtain one even if they are not suppose to have it as in thieves, crooks, gang banger's etc, the list is endless when it comes down to it because criminals will always have a firearm because its the only way they can commit there crimes because they are all just little boys that are afraid of there own shadows and couldn't win in a real fight between true men if they wanted too.
We have all types of drugs, legal and illegal and on top of that all the mental issues facing people who figure they are fine and everyone else is the problem so how do we change that around?
Laws are not the problem, its getting the people who don't follow them to change and I find that as the most impossible thing to accomplish period.
My heartfelt condolences the lady who now has to live life without her sons, the husband I hope rots somewhere worse than hell.
How about psychos just start killing themselves and leave the innocents out of it.
If that were the case you would have already put a gun to your head.
Ok, let's just send em all over to your house and you can convince them to do the right thing and kill themselves. Good Luck Baby !
Leave the gun, take the cannoli
F. U.
That would be the last straw for the dying republican party.
And the end of the Constitution?
Nevada....what?
It was written: being a police officer, that there are mentally disturbed people out there who commit these types against their own family members. If you surmise why this man did what he did, in some cultures, divorce is not recognized, in some cultures its only allowed in extreme cases. Westerners have this view of how the wold should be. everyone must be like Americans do. I would think that while this man went coo-coo, it is because of the divorce and separation from his kids. Mental illness is why this man killed his family.. Media bull@!$%#.. No one can say why he did it, and No one can attribute mental illness as a cause. I'am disabled.. and because.. of my disability.. laws will be made so I can not have a firearm.. legally.
Sorry.I hear you though.It IS A SHAME that the culture hasn't stayed the way it was.Sure as hell beats how it IS
The woman is undoubtedly a liberal that was ruining the kids education...the woman had driven her husband crazy with her alimony and child support demands while running with a local dog pack...she didn't leave the guy any other way out...
Dee....go find an ice pick and stab yourself in the eye you f'n moron.
Wow, Leave... the second poster you wish dead within 3 posts...
Psycho.
I have to admit I was thinking the same thing.
Either that or SOMBRERO, one of the two. Take your pick.
Leave the gun, take the cannoli
F.U.
What a set of classy people we have. Wow.
he's says he is a special forces black belt-spews a lot
This former PJ calls BS on his being a "special forces black belt"