Prayer doesn't seem to have made a difference on abortion and same sex marriage so it probably won't work on the Boy Scouts either.

don of the rockies

You give "dons" and "the rockies" a bad name with your foolish comments. Face it .... you have no idea what God wants and you should not blame God for your narrow-minded attitude. You are just one more Old Testament Christian who uses the Bible as justification to hate those you do not understand (not that you try).

don of the rockies -

Gays probably know very well what their own plumbing looks like.

“And because churches have been the sponsoring organizations of most troops, that is why (allowing gays) is such a threat and the backlash has really been so harsh” by religious conservatives, he added.

Never mind those same gays are in the pews on Sunday. A former next door neighbor of mine goes to Catholic Church very Sunday. She does volunteer work in the parish. She is a good parish member. She is also a Rosie O'Donnell (League of Their Own) sports playing lesbian. In a lot of churches the one to worry about is the celibate priest or the happily married minster/pastor. The large Baptist church near me has constant preach against gays. It's pastor just cut a plea deal for less jail time for taking a under age girl acroos state lines for the purposes of having sex with her.

Wayne, kids all across America shower and change in phys ed locker rooms everyday without much fuss. What you fail to realize is the difference between sexual orientation and inappropriate behavior. Get your head out of the sand.

They not only live in close quarters but in the course of their daily activities are nude together 2-3 times a day.

I was a Scout for 5 years and don't recall being nude once in front of others. Even at our annual camp outs. We changed in our sleeping bags and showered in swim trunks.

Goodforgoodnesssake, look at what you just wrote. You are talking about in a group setting where someone would kick the crap out of a homosexual if he tried to assault another person. In the confines of a 2 man tent there would not be that "safety in numbers" situation. It seems you are the one with their head in the up and locked position.

Gotta feel sorry for the Boy Scouts. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't. A fair number of scouting families feel strongly about gays and object to including them, while society at large is beginning to realize how unfairly they're treated. The Scouts can't win.

the arguments seem to be the same as when the BSA decided to allow blacks in....

Gee, Jeff, we all enjoy a really intelligent, civil comment. Thanks for your brilliant, insightful words.

the scouts will no longer be using our farms.

EngEsq,

I was a Scout for 5 years and don't recall being nude once in front of others. Even at our annual camp outs. We changed in our sleeping bags and showered in swim trunks.

That's totally gay.

The boy scouts should loose their tax exemption and their private usage to public lands-then they can do whatever they want.

The article wants to give the impression that a relatively small minority on the far right wants the gay ban to remain. NOT SO! This is a view held by the vast majority of people in all levels of the organization, from the top leaders to the scouts themselves. Don't cave in to the pressure, if they do, BSA will cease to exist within 10 years.

@Wayne in Mo.

I went through all the levels of boyscouts. From the cub scout all the way through eagle scout. I only recall having anyone completely naked 2 times. Once was because we had to get de-leeched when we stumbled into a deep part of the swamp and another time was because we were drying our clothes because it rained during a jamboree. I knew of gays then, one of our scout leaders was one. We saw him no different. Honestly, at age 14-15 you are so into the closet because people wont accept you. Boyscouts taught me not to discriminate, taught me to help people no matter what. Taught me that everyone is different and thats ok. Taught me that we are all human and that is all that matters. Religion taught me Hate. Taught me if someone isn't like me they are not to be trusted. They are to be feared. Honestly, which one do you feel is closer to god's teachings?

If you stop to think about it, it's only the people unfortunate enough to be gay that really suffer.

It's not the churches, not the Boy Scouts and not the heterosexuals that suffer, just the gays. The rest of us should be thankful and less hateful.

The articled failed to mention a couple of points:

1) The BSA has a peak membership right at 5 million in 1973 and has been in decline ever since with around 2.7 (active plus inactive) members currently. In thinking about the decline in membership, it becomes much worse when you remember the growth in US population and the urbanization that has happened in that time.

2) The major sponsor, by far, of Boy Scout troops is the Mormon Church. These troops are heavily indoctrinated in Mormon "values" and organized according to Mormon priesthood quorums. Quorams are organized groups of brethren who hold the same office in the priesthood. They may be ordained to an office in the Aaronic Priesthood starting at age 12. Young men are registered to age appropriate Scouting units that consist of members of their priesthood quorums. Slowly, the LDS church is taking over scouting and bringing it in line with Mormon thinking.

3) Recently Mormons have been shifting their stance toward GBLT persons and now allows chaste gays to hold "callings," or positions in its organizations, when chosen by local Mormon leaders, and its written guidelines do not exclude Scouting. It is this shift that has prompted the BSA executive leadership to re-think its own stance. The issue is that the BSA is afraid that the LDS church might split off its own "brand" of scouts that is exclusively Mormon, taking about a half-million or more of the current members with them. Financially, this would crush the BSA.

4) The Mormon church is the second fastest growing "Christian" religion worldwide after Pentacostalism. If you look more carefully at this growth, it is almost exactly paralleled by the growth in Mormon BSA membership, number of troops, and financial measures. Since Pentacostalism is not heavily involved in scouting, the LDS church is on track to take over the BSA using majority rules.

Prayer doesn't seem to have made a difference on abortion and same sex marriage so it probably won't work on the Boy Scouts either.

Haven't you noticed what this statement thinks of children. Abortion ( killing of children) and same sex marriages( no biological children).

Now you know why gays and the liberals are so eager to take over BSA.

Yea forgot about all the weirdo Mormon influences. One more reason to steer clear. If I want my kids to learn religion I will take to church myself and not leave it up to some pervert, Mormon scout leader.

Look, 70% of all Boy Scout troops are sponsored by churches. So, here's the thing, if you want to change an organization, get involved. Sponsor your own troops. Why should churches not have a say since they are the one's paying the bill?

C'mon God, get your priorities straight and fix our economy! Nevermind these idoit homophobes!

God doesn't have anything to do with this. The Bible appears to warn against mature adult men engaged in sexual activities together.

It doesn't specifically exclude or prohibit the idea of young boys exploring their sexuality.

CrazySteve:

You're not so crazy after all. Well said, well said.

Always, follow the money.

Jeffor, maybe if you had been a Boy Scout or a member of 4H, you would have learned vaules. I think you are the dork, who hasn't a clue about what a young person actually learns when belonging to these fine young peoples organizations. People who spout off about things they know nothing about are truely ignorant...which fits your attitude...not to mention your extreme fear being exibited because the unknown is always scary to the uneducated.

The Boy Scouts of America announcement last week that it may eliminate the exclusion of gays from membership at the national level, leaving the decision to its local units,

Letting the local units make the decision locally is a cop out and a bad idea. That's like letting every McDonalds or Subway decide on their own menu and make whatever changes they want. Pretty soon, the franchise loses it's brand and people going from one store to the next have no idea what they are going to get. The Boy Scouts are a private organization very much founded on principles of God and country. I hate to see them sacrifice their beliefs on the altar of political correctness.

Just one more little example of why religion needs to GO AWAY.

This cancer of the mind has poisoned our species for far too long, time to leave all the monsters under our beds behind and GROW UP.

Bruce:

I hate to see them sacrifice their beliefs on the altar of political correctness.

It's not a matter of political correctness, but a matter of human rights and equality. Labeling the issue "political" just muddies the water with unnecessary scum.

Jeffor = KING OF DORKS...main activity.....being uneducated, blindly following ingorance.

Sorry Jeffor Just saying what needs to be said.

Now this entire issue has warped into a religious struggle!?!

This has gone beyond ridiculous. No matter what the BSA determines to do it's basicaly screwed as an organization. After they've been reduced to rubble what other organization will controversy develop around and destroy. Then what will be left with? What's next? Be reduced to living in caves, throwing our excrement at one another? How far does the insanity need to go?

Letting the local units make the decision locally is a cop out and a bad idea. That's like letting every McDonalds or Subway decide on their own menu and make whatever changes they want. Pretty soon, the franchise loses it's brand and people going from one store to the next have no idea what they are going to get.

You aren't paying attention. McDonald's and Subway franchises don't all sell the exact same menu. Haven't you ever been to a restaurant with a limited menu or one that isn't selling the current promotion? I have. It's pretty common. Some people throw a tantrum when they don't get what they want, like little children, but most people cope with it just fine.

Second, I suggest reading up on the BSA's stance on God. You may surprised to find they aren't referring to the Christian God, but rather whatever God the individual scout shows reverence toward.

Maybe you should travel a little and get some perspective.

Okay. So here's my take on this whole debacle. If the church groups are so certain that being gay is a sin, then they need to follow the axiom, "hate the sin, love the sinner". If they are opposed to gays in the BSA then they need to follow the Bible more closely, which would advocate welcoming everyone regardless of their background or how one feels about them personally. Otherwise, the BSA just stands for a BS Attitude!

Well lets see, we let gays into the church,,, many of those turned out to be pedophiles as well, that worked out well didnt it? Human rights is not a right to abuse children. And perversion is wrong regaurdles of its popularity!!! Just because there are a lot of mentaly ill people out there, doesnt meen you accept it as normal. Humans are not hemaphrodites. reproduction is a normal function of the species. Anything else is the brain gone wrong. It should be viewed as that. We can choose to tolerate that, but it isnt normal !!! And should not be taught as such.

Debbie, so what about my rights? Shouldn't my rights as a majority be defended as much as the rights of the minority????

Equality...that simply does not exsist now nor has it ever. Nice concept, but does not hold water in reality.

Wayne, your comment is invalid. I'm a straight woman, but I'm not attracted to all men. Gays and straights of both genders and all ages are the same, though I would imagine that there are exceptions, as there are to most things in life.

trm199:

Please educate yourself. There are many, many studies which debunk your Neanderthal, backwoods view, and this is just an example of one:

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

Debi-1314897---You are right it is not a matter of PC but an attack continuing on the religion in America. We old fuddy-duddies do not want political action committees muddying the values of our religion. The attacks are now focused on the right to have an organization with religious values. Human rights and equality are flag words for the left to push a further agenda. We have Christmas without Jesus and Easter without Jesus and the forth of July what no longer celebrates our country. We have presidents day that's supposed to celebrate all our presidents but LGBT month to celebrate being whatever. It is not a political issue I agree with your thoughts about it being a matter of human rights and dignity but it is also about individual choice but apparently only if you agree with being pro-choice, pro-gay or pro-liberal. Because if you do not agree you are attacked, marginalized and labeled. So much for your human rights and dignity. We have organizations that support all facets of life and they should be able to enjoy that right without interference from others who do not share those views.

Winker, are you that creepy little guy from Sandy Hook?

Listen! I am the most tolerant open minded guy here, I am not a homophobes and if the LG-BS want to marry, I'm down with that, but putting a Gay man in charge of a lot of little boys is like looking into a gasoline can with a match. It isn't a matter of IF it is a matter of when.

Wicked Wanda:

Debbie, so what about my rights? Shouldn't my rights as a majority be defended as much as the rights of the minority????

Maybe it would be helpful for you to brush up on the 'whys and hows' your government works.

The Constitution now makes it clear that everyone is created equal. Just because there may be a majority opinion, the Constitution protects the minority from "mob rule"; such as, women being able to vote. If the majority (mob rule) of men did not want women (minority) to vote, whose rights should prevail? Men, just because they are the majority, or women, because they have a greater right to equality under our laws?

Human equality trumps mob rule.

Red Sailor:

Listen! I am the most tolerant open minded guy here,...

putting a Gay man in charge of a lot of little boys is like looking into a gasoline can with a match.

But unfortunately, not the most sharpest tack in the box. Please refer to Post #1.51.

ItIsWhat!i!s,

Have you ever heard of a Freudian slip? I believe you just typed one out.

" BTW: Homophobia isn't a clinical condition: it's a coined phrase designed to belittle homosexuals who have legitimate opposition to the homosexual lifestyle."

So you admit that you are gay and hate yourself then?

They can't have it both ways. Either they are religious and don't get to use public lands or public funds or they aren't religious and therefore don't say gays or atheists aren't welcome. You can't have it both ways.

Until "God" makes up for all the money lost, due to companies halting sponsorships of BSA, I doubt prayer will do any good.

Faith is only important until it hits your pocket book.

When FAKE CHRISTIANS stop lying and call it a 'Christian Youth Group' I'll let them keep their homophobia to themselves.

When it is a private organization that is meant to include all kinds of boys (or girls for the girl scouts) and it acts in its own best interest, then the Fake Christians can shut up.

WELCOME TO IT. IT IS CALLED NO GOVERNMENT IN YOUR PRIVATE INDUSTRY (oh, we know, because you weren't anti-government, fake Christians, you were pro-cleric government. So move to Iran and do us all a favor).

For me it is about attraction.

Are women allowed to be scout masters? Or are girls allowed to join boy scouts?

If they are, then allow gays to join also. Or if you are going to allow gays to join, then also start allowing females.

Religion should get no say. In all my years of scouts, they never said which god they were talking about. Whatever god wants to have a say, he should show up in person, till then, he gets no opinion.

Debi-1314897

Perhaps you should read up on the laws pertaining to the difference between Private and Public organizations. As a private organization, the Supreme Court ruled that the BSA could set their own rules... including excluding gays. As for equality, why can't the LGBT wogs create their own Scouting org? Hmm, could it have anything to do with the fact that that wouldn't support their effort to destroy religion?

BTW: Homophobia isn't a clinical condition: it's a coined phrase designed to belittle homosexuals who have legitimate opposition to the homosexual lifestyle.

I think you meant......... "Its a coined phrase designed to belittle heterosexuals who have a legitimate opposition to the homosexual lifestyle"

For one regardless if an organization is private or not, excluding someone becasue of the color of their skin would be considered bigotry, excluding someone becasue of their religious beleifs is bigotry and becasue of who they love, bigotry.

Although I applaud them for taking a long look at the policy and I can understand the turmoil, however, there is no harm having gay men and woman and scouts involved, humans are humans, its time they were treated as such. I would even consider donating again.

Debi - This is not about human rights and equality. If it were, you should be concerned that the BSA is being harassed into giving up its constitutionally protected and supreme court upheld freedom of assocation.

Nobody has the 'right' to membership in a private organization, not the gays, straights, blacks, whites, jews, mormons, christians, athiests, latinos, etc. There are many private organizations who pick and choose their membership based on race, gender, nationality, religion, academic achievement, athletic ability, etc. (ie. NAACP, private universities, fraternities, clubs, sports teams, etc.). In their own way they discriminate against any who do not meet membership requirements. Discrimination does not equal rights violation.

Please tell me how a gay person's rights have been violated by the BSA and I will be the first to join their cause! Until then...SHUT UP!!

That little prayer circle looks a little gay to me!

I am aware of Boys Scouts v. Dale.

If the BSs choose to retain their own private club, fine, but stop accepting public money. They've got one hand out while the other is stuck inside where the sun don't shine.

Krestov - Based on your definition of bigotry, all private organizations including the NAACP, private universities, fraternities, clubs, sports teams are bigots because they discriminate against those who do not meet their membership requirements.

Debi - The BSA receives public funding just like private universities, professional sports teams, NAACP. These all discriminate in their own way too. Should they refuse public funding or do they provide valuable services to the public just as the BSA does despite their discriminatory policies??

A from Arizona

Yes.

This issue tears at my heart. I am a huge fan of scouting, and all the GREAT things
they offer young boys. My youngest son is an Eagle Scout. His father died when
he was 6, and these men stepped in and taught him many things.

In all the years I was involved with scouting, I never filled out anything asking for sexual orientation. The sex life of the adults was not a subject of discussion. I have seen many comments about "politically correct". I personally call it good manners. From the BSA website :

"The Boy Scouts of America is one of the nation's largest and most prominent values-based youth development organizations. The BSA provides a program for young people that builds character, trains them in the responsibilities of participating citizenship, and develops personal fitness.

For over a century, the BSA has helped build the future leaders of this country by combining educational activities and lifelong values with fun. The Boy Scouts of America believes — and, through over a century of experience, knows — that helping youth is a key to building a more conscientious, responsible, and productive society."

No where in there does it say anything about religion, and though they touch on it briefly I can tell you the Boy Scouts are not holding bible studies. Values can be taught without thumping a bible.
There is a God and Country badge, that is not required but extra, that does require a taking part in a church class.

The issue seems to be the churches that currently allow them to use their facilities want them to take a stand against homosexuals. I will be quite disappointed if the BSA bows to the will of the churches, as will my Eagle Scout son. It will be quite interesting to see if the churches kick them out if they don't.

Looks like someone's going to get shafted on this one.

Should they refuse public funding or do they provide valuable services to the public just as the BSA does despite their discriminatory policies??

If they are unwilling to abide by public laws prohibiting discrimination, they shouldn't be entitled to public funding.

Boby-1851312

the scouts will no longer be using our farms.

Ah yes, the conservative-Christian response to something they don't like. It doesn't matter that the people that you are truly hurting are mostly the boys you presumably care for and were trying to help before "teh gayz" were let in. Good morals, good values. I'm sure Jesus would be proud.

Debi - The BSA hasn't broken any public discrimination law. The irony is, public law protects BSA's right to discriminate. Public services(parks, school facilities, navy bases, etc.) are, however, governed by public discrimination law and cannot favor one private non-profit organization over another. Like it or not, that is the law.

The law allows senior living facilities to discriminate against minors, public restrooms to discriminate by gender, public universities and employers to give preference to minority groups by way of affermitive action, womens sports to discriminate against male athletes, public businesses are even allowed to refuse service to the shirtless and shoeless. Where is the public outcray for these blatant acts of discrimination?

Instead, we have special interest groups that go to great lengths to inflame the public, harass and intimidate private organizations that they find objectionable. If anyone has violated the law it is the bullie LGBT groups. In fact, since the supreme court ruling, the BSA should have no problem filing harassment, slander, defamation charges against those who continue the fight against them.

"Everyone" says you don't have to allow the gays in here. They don't have the same rights as others. I seem to recall "Everyone" saying the same thing about blacks 50-60 years ago...I believe those were the same up-standing christians that are posting here too!

Oh - Don't let the BSA know you're a religon other than christian...they'll kick you out of the program.

It's the Boy Scouts not the "Homophobic Heterosexual Scouts".

How does someone else gaining a right you've always enjoyed, hurt you in any way?

How does someone else gaining a right you've always enjoyed, hurt you in any way?

How are they denied the same right if gays can join without disclosure of their sexual orientation?

Diversionary article. Guns, gays, Blame game politics, adjusted numbers, anything... besides economy, gas prices, amnesty, unemployment, honesty or any real issues that actually effect YOUR life. Watch the other hand.

Diversionary article? There are a million articles to read--many about the economy, gas prices, amnesty, etc.

YOU chose to read THIS article.

You're obviously against them being allowed membership. That's banning them the right to be a Boy Scout.

Okay. First you have to prove that gay boys aren't boys. ;)

How are they denied the same right if gays can join without disclosure of their sexual orientation?

So a scout is picked up from a meeting one week by his mom and the next week he is picked up by his "other" mom and he gets kicked out of the troop? A scout has his two dads show up at a award presentation and he gets kicked out? Yeah thats a flaunting, disclosing and forcing their beliefs on you! (sarcasm)

the scouts will no longer be using our farms. congratulations "leaders"

So a scout is picked up from a meeting one week by his mom and the next week he is picked up by his "other" mom and he gets kicked out of the troop?

So this isn't about the "Boy" scouts, it's about their gay parents?

That's great Boby, ruin it for the kids in your area because of a bunch of adults arguing. It's sad that in this battle over adult problems affecting a youth organization, the only people who are going to lose at the end are the kids in the BSA, who really have little to nothing to do with the issue at hand. Both sides have completely lost focus that the BSA is about the kids, and teaching them outdoors and leadership skills that will help mold them into responsible, young men. Sex (no matter your orientation) has no place in scouts otherwise, so the issue is really moot.

The real travesty in all of this is that the BSA won't be able to use Boby's farms anymore. Won't someone think of the kids and how heartbroken that they won't be able to use Boby's bigot farm!

How does someone else gaining a right you've always enjoyed, hurt you in any way?

Like it or not, Christians have the right to shield our children from ideology that we find to be outside our own beliefs. In the same token, non-christians are allowed to sheild their children from beliefs they find objectionable. It is not appropriate for one group to decide that they should be allowed to invade where they are not welcome just to suit their own ends. The BSA is a faith-based group and does not seek to invade non-christian beliefs. Non-christians should set up their own clubs and practice their own ideology.

Bob Freebird , Does that mean they can come to your gay farm?

justice - christians have no such right - the boys scouts are now a religion? - can a jew join if he does not believe in jesus - and obviouly the scouts are going to allow non christian beliefs to be a part of their organization ........... because they are on the verge of doing just that - if not this year , then next - sorry jesus freaks the party is over - ( for the GOP as well)

Absolutely! Everyone is welcome on my gay farm: straights, gays, whites, blacks, hispanics. I don't discriminate who is able to come on my farm.

the BSA is a mormon group, not christian. Second, they invade all sorts of functions in our society today. The U.S. was not founded on christianity, so why is christianity allowed to be the overriding doctrine when it isn't even mentioned in the constitution? You are all worthless sheep.

Its a result of the decay of morals in our society. The sickness that many of these people have is being taught to others as a lifestyle. (if it feels good do it) And since its been portrayed as OK by the media, many people have been tricked into feeling sorry for these people. Some are sick some just immoral. Which is why they want to eliminate the churches. Morrality is there enemy!!!

The boy scouts are reverent and have duty to God, there are over 100 religions recognized by the boy scouts. Which one religion does the Boy Scouts follow? They follow all and ask that all members observe respect for a higher being. Not all religions are against gays, some actually allow homosexuality so the Boy Scouts MUST not ban them as it will be excluding some faiths. The local troops/packs can discriminate against gays and I am sure many will but the orginization as a whole cannot. I don't ask nor do I want a scout to tell me.

Yes I am a Scout leader (8 years) and a Boy Scout.

trm, church is the source of all morality? Did you and I read the same judeo-christian bible in which beating women is considered a good thing and killing children who have even a single qualm with their parents is a good thing?

Morality is determined by the truth of existentialism, not by hypocritical religious extremism. For an example of judeo-christian morality, simply look to the crusades and spanish inquisition.

goodforgoodnesssake

It's the Boy Scouts not the "Homophobic Heterosexual Scouts".

How does someone else gaining a right you've always enjoyed, hurt you in any way?

You gotta be kidding me? When God says to have nothing to do with these homosexuals and then by law homosexuals force their way into organizations that previously were in accordance with God's laws you have prevented them from their 1st amendment rights to:

1) Freedom of Speech

2) Freedom of Religion

3) Freedom to Assemble.

In short by forcing homosexual views onto Christians you have taken away their Constitutional Rights.

I believe that the boy scouts should remain as they are, and they should not allow themselves to be converted by people with devilish ideas who practice ungodly behavior. If the boy scouts allow their organization to be polluted, they will sent a message to the world that they are as weak as some American politicians.

Look, if you really want to change the Boy Scouts, you have to start your own troops. 70% of troops are sponsored by churches. So, why don't you change that. Why should the Boy Scouts bite their sponsors to make the rest of us happy.

justicenonexistent: Like it or not, Christians have the right to shield our children from ideology that we find to be outside our own beliefs. In the same token, non-christians are allowed to sheild their children from beliefs they find objectionable. It is not appropriate for one group to decide that they should be allowed to invade where they are not welcome just to suit their own ends. The BSA is a faith-based group and does not seek to invade non-christian beliefs. Non-christians should set up their own clubs and practice their own ideology.

Yes, Christians have a right to shield their children from the behavior of others, but not by excluding others. If you do not want your child to associate with someone in a group, you have the right to keep your child from the group.

not my fault nailed it: The BSA is not a Christian organization and the God they refer to is not the Christian God. It is whoever the individual scout holds to be holy. The BSA does not have an official religion, and troops are built around a number of them, including Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism, the Bahá'í Faith, and Zoroastrianism, among others. The BSA is less concerned about what faith you adhere to and more concerned that you in fact adhere to it. Just because you have only seen it associated with Christian churches doesn't mean that is how all troops are supported.

Try to leave your small town and travel a bit, especially if you can leave the country. You might be surprised about the world around you and how little it cares about your limited perspective.

In short by forcing homosexual views onto Christians you have taken away their Constitutional Rights.

And it's OK for your religion to impose it's beliefs onto everyone? Are you really that ignorant and blind?

Seems you're OK with denying rights to anyone that doesn't follow your version of religion.

I do love how your religion fear mongered during the cold war to have the word God plastered all over everything.

Did you know the Pledge Of Allegiance was written without the word God in it? Did you know our currency wasn't first printed with the word God on it? Did you know that the military Oath Of Enlistment didn't have the word God in it?

That is, until your religion used fear and misinformation to make you feel that if you didn't see the word God everywhere, the commies would come and kill you. You were also labeled a commie if you weren't a Christian.

For you to hide behind a religion that tries every day to impose it's beliefs into our laws, make your whole comment laughable at best, and sad and pathetic at worst.

The moral component of this story is at the heart of the matter. Either homosexuality is intrinsically immoral or discrimination against an innocent minority group is immoral. You can't have it both ways by kicking it back to the individual troops. That will only splinter the organization; and how can such a morally muddled message be rendered "morally straight" in the trusting eyes of the boys themselves? The Boy Scouts must step up and listen to their own words in the Boy Scout motto. They must make the difficult moral choice. A house divided against itself cannot stand.

The fact that people are saying it is discrimination against gays, has me asking, Isn't it discrimination against the religious to have them abandon their moral convictions? There is also the fact that people's religious freedoms are part of our US Constitution! The Boy Scouts would have to develop a new way of teaching Boy Scouts the importance of our government and the importance of holding by their moral convictions. I personally do not believe that our nation has to all think alike, and that there is room for all, but feel that trying to coerce and control evryones actions is a way to take away our freedoms! I am sorry to inform all, that your agendas do not meet everyone elses, and that there will always be others that do not agree with you! Religion happens to be a part of our society, and whether you agree with it or not theywill always be there. I am not religious but do believe that they have the right to live the lives they want to. Yes, gays have the right to live their lives also and can start their own version of Scouting, one where they are not infringing on someone elses morals! They can then have their lifestyles, and have whatever they hope to recieve from the teachings of their Scout troops!

When God says to have nothing to do with these homosexuals and then by law homosexuals force their way into organizations that previously were in accordance with God's laws you have prevented them from their 1st amendment rights to:

I assume that by 'God' you mean Jesus. and we should DEFINITELY go by what he said on the whole subject of homosexuality. Oops! Turns out he never bothered to utter a single word on the subject...

Or are you cherry picking a quote from the Old Testament? You know-the first part of the Bible that was written by anonymous, bronze age, goatshaggers so ignorant they make you look like Stephen Hawking.

This is the Scout Oath: On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

Religion has always been an important part of the BSA as shown by the wording in their oath! What right do you have in forcing them to forego their morals and beliefs??? Yes, there are some religions that are inclusive but there are many that are not!

You people amaze me with your self-righteous judging and erroneous statements regarding gay youth. You are automatically assuming that a gay youth will somehow come in and corrupt your precious boys. Duty to God does not imply that it is duty to the Christian God, and morally straight deals with morality; it does not specify sexual purity. That being said, how dare you assume that a homosexual youth would be lusting after and wanting to corrupt the purity of your sons? The Boy Scouts, as I remember when my son was one for 2 years, did not teach religion. One year he attended a pack that was held in a Mormon place of worship; no one discussed what church you attended. My daughter's Brownie troop leader was married to an atheist; the group consisted of girls that were Catholic, Protestant and Jewish; no one cared.

Those of you who are so determined to isolate your children usually do so out of your own fears that your kids may turn out to be one of the ones you condemn so much. I feel sorry for many of your children; it will be a terrible thing for them if they are gay; you have already damned them. My children have gay friends; they are all nice kids and have much in common that they enjoy; movies, music, photography, sports, etc...Who they do or don't sleep with is not what real friendships are based upon. I guess none of you are going to support your kids if they decide to enter the military. You people probably don't even know that there are already gay boys in your troops because they actually act no different than your kids do. Why don't you quit fantasizing about what sexual acts they may privately partake in; most people don't sit around thinking what others are doing sexually unless you are really repressed.

goodforgoodnesssake

How does someone else gaining a right you've always enjoyed, hurt you in any way?

Please tell me where anyone has the "right" to membership in a private organization. The BSA is not denying anyone any rights therefore there are none to be gained. The only right being enjoyed is the freedom of association by those who have the privilege and honor of membership in the BSA. How dare the LGBT deny the BSA their constitutionally protected right.

It's not just don't ask, don't tell. It was "Don't ask, don't tell, don't harass, don't pursue" and there was nothing wrong with it except gays couldn't be openly gay. That's about it. At the end of the day, nobody really wanted to know more or less, and the issue never really came up unless someone was acting peculiar. There was no M.O.S in the military that required people to be gay. As with any other issue, the ego-dysentonic gays couldn't tell themselves apart from their orientation.

Brandy, GOOD POINT !

Heterosexuals display their orientation every day, with their constant PDA's, family photos in the workplace, their loud conversations in public about their sexual exploitations, etc. Maybe they should be branded with a tattoo though like the gays were in WWII Germany (yes, that is where the gay "pink triangle" symbol came from for those who don't know.)

@anti-trust

Heterosexuals display their orientation every day, with their constant PDA's, family photos in the workplace, their loud conversations in public about their sexual exploitations,

So you want to have loud conversations about your sex exploits? Obviously, you must if you don't have the intestinal fortitude to tell the person talking that you find that conversation offensive.

The only reason there are loud conversations is that homophobes are demanding to keep gays out.

What was the need to have it in the first place? Oh right because people felt Gays were a subhuman class of being. then if they were found gay later they got kicked out of the military with a dishonorable discharge.

I think Brandie's got the right idea. My question is if "gay boys/girls" want to participate in scouting activities, why not form their own organization. It seems that every ethinic, religous, race, etc all have their own little "clubs" that do not allow others (don't fit their particular paramiters), so why not Gay Scouts. That way the kids would have similar interests to the other boys/girls in their pack and no one would have to "worry" about "sleep overs" etc and everyone would be happy! This could work as long as the high standards of scouting was maintained. Just make it an off shoot of the main tree, just like they did "Brownies" for the younger girls not old enough to be a Girl Scout yet. Always more than one way to find resolutions.

I think Brandie's got the right idea. My question is if "black boys/girls" want to participate in scouting activities, why not form their own organization. It seems that every ethinic, religous, race, etc all have their own little "clubs" that do not allow others (don't fit their particular paramiters), so why not Black Scouts. That way the kids would have similar interests to the other boys/girls in their pack and no one would have to "worry" about "sleep overs" etc and everyone would be happy! This could work as long as the high standards of scouting was maintained. Just make it an off shoot of the main tree, just like they did "Brownies" for the younger girls not old enough to be a Girl Scout yet. Always more than one way to find resolutions.

Brandie - The problem with that is that the gay scout leaders who were fired didn't tell. Someone pried into their personal lives and reported them. The same with the scout who was denied his Eagle badge. He didn't openly discuss his sexuality with the Scouts. Someone reported him. Don't ask, don't tell also sends the message to gay teens that they should hide who they are and reinforces the stereotype that a homosexual should only be defined by their sexuality. I guarantee that there are gay scouts still in the BSA and that no one around them has any idea. The reason being that they are completely comfortable with this person because he isn't salivating over the other boys or trying to seduce them. I hate to break it to you straight men - not all gay men are not attracted to all of you. Not all straight women are attracted to all of you either. If a gay man sees you naked, it will not turn you gay, nor will it turn the gay man on. Get over yourselves.

Brandy, you and all heterosexuals DO tell everyone you're straight. You do this when you talk about your spouse or boyfriend, when you have his photo on your desk, when you tell co-workers what you and your boyfriend or husband did over vacation, when you and he show up at school functions, when you walk down the sidewalk holding his hand, etc. Your words and actions speak VERY loudly about your sexual orientation. It's hypocrisy to say that you don't mind gays being in the Boy Scouts, so long as you don't KNOW they're gay. Not very tolerant or thoughtful. Imagine if you had to live that way - hide who you are because some religion or group doesn't like it. Are you aware that at one time, in 19th century England, Roman Catholics couldn't be scout leaders in some places, or were looked at with suspicion if they were?

first if the Scouts were as resourceful as they think they are there would not be anymore scout masters that ar3e married and are also pedofiles.. those men have ruined thousands of young lives and are not being held WANDA and BOB.. so lets start the bus thing again gays and blacks to the back, unwed mothers with babies not allowed on the bus,

there are so many more wonderful things we could do to continue the thought of WANDA and BOB I mean isn't there enough bigotry and hate by you racists and radicals.. Wanda and BOB

When I was in the scout's in Brazil in the 1950's, I'm thankful that religion was not part of the experience rather it was camraderie, love and experience of the outdoors, survival training etc and that experience has formed a strong platform for my life. Leave religion out of it!

If you do not like the policies of an organization do not participate, go form your own group. I have not been invited to the SAC,Golden Globes,Neo-Nazis,Elites,Black Panthers, Emmy's, etc. but I am not asking them to change their policies on who is in their club,click or group. Just because they do not endorse a gay Scout leader being around a group of teenage boys(How could that be hazardous?)does not mean the Scouts or their members are a hate group. They have a set of ideals that they want their leaders to emulate and celebrating Sodomy is not one of them.

Sorry but it would be an utter disaster to allow the gay and straight to commingle. Create another chapter - Gay Scouts of America ? No I am not joking but certainly would be safer ? Let us not forget we are involving very young kids at an impressionable age and last thing we need to do is instill the concept of gayness in their midst? As it is its hard to keep the pedophiles out and let them grow up in a normal wholesome environment !? Nothing to do with religion etc. Just give these kids a chance to be free from all the extreme crap humans have created !

I hate the very idea of scouting and feel sad that other people think it teaches kids how to be good leaders. I rather think it teaches them how to be good followers, period. Follow the tradition. Follow the leaders. Follow the faith. I just don't see the point in any of it. The scouts I have met as adults all THINK they are great leaders, but that sure doesn't make it true, trust me.

That said, scouting exists whether I like it or not. So this one seems pretty simple to me: adapt, or die. That is their choice. It is theirs to make, and I guess they are finally starting to see the wisdom of trying to keep up with the "reality on the ground".

One issue here is that religion has co-opted the Boy Scouts and claimed it as thier own. They define the rules for this 'available to the general public' youth club as if it were a religious based youth club.

While scouting does include in it's pledge a statement about believing in God. Scouting was NOT created with the idea that only a specific religious viewpoint would be tolerated. It is today's 'righteous' religious minded that have contorted it into supporting only specific religious viewpoints.

Gay people can be religious just as easily as straight people can - it's the straight people who eliminate the gay people because 'how dare they think they can be religious WITHOUT following only my specific way of believing?' I have yet to see a mainstream gay person who seriously demands the exclusion of people who don't think or beleive the same way they do from being allowed in the mainstream - but I constantly see mainstream religious people constantly excluding gays from that very mainstream....

I see intolerant religious people as to what they are: failures in thier efforts to truly follow the word of Jesus. (pridefulness, false righteousness, twisting the teachings of Jesus to dehumanize those who are different and the biggie - thinking that thier interpretation of specific passages in the Bible trumps the overall teachings of Jesus so that they can fail to treat others like they themselves would be treated, etc. etc...).

Still unsure why gay=pedophile. Maybe someone who thinks that could explain.

As for being openly gay, that doesn't mean people want to run around yelling, "I'm gay." It means they don't hide it. If they live w/a partner of the same sex and someone comes over to visit, it's not, "Oh that's Uncle Larry." Just like any husband would say, "Meet my wife." the gay person would say, "Meet my partner." Get it?

As for forming the Gay Scouts, maybe we should form the Black Scouts, the Jewish Scouts, the Muslim Scouts, The Latino Scouts, and so on. I'm not serious, just pointing out that no one would ever put up with that kind of discrimination, but somehow here it's ok? Don't really get that either.

I personally think if BSA wants to discriminate, and we want to say that's their right to discriminate, then that's a valid stance. I don't agree but it's valid. But then they cannot be tax exempt anymore. If they disciminate against a protected class of people they no longer qualify to be a 501c3. No more deductible donations, they get to pay income taxes and they get to pay property taxes on all those camps they own. So you want to discriminate BSA, fine, but fork over the cash cause you're no longer a charity.

I'm thankful that religion was not part of the experience rather it was camraderie, love and experience of the outdoors, survival training etc and that experience has formed a strong platform for my life.

I wanted to be a Boy Scout when I was a kid because I thought there would be camaraderie and love in the outdoors. I would have loved to have been around other boys while swimming. Something happened and I didn't get involved with Scouts. I used to regret it, thinking about what I had missed. Then, one day, I learned that the Boy Scouts exposed many men to firearms, and many of those men eventually owned hand guns. Now I'm glad I wasn't a part of the Boy Scouts and the insanity that comes from it.

Religion bought and paid off the Boy Scouts of America period. It is no longer a boy's organisation shaping and molding our boys to make it in society. It is simply to brain wash them into religious christian cults and teach them from an early age that they are better than anyone else. Had I known that is exactly what the BSofA is, to be exact, a religious sect, shaping and molding future militants and church elders which will convert their children, I would never have let my first two sons join from the Cub Scouts up. No wonder I had so many problems with those two that I just do not have with the rest of them that never were a part of the BSofA.

Wanda, just out of curiosity, what is your IQ? Your posts are not only offensive, but they are damn near illiterate. Not to mention you are just making stuff up. I mean blatantly producing falsehoods. Start backing up some of your assertions with cited facts or STFU? Grown ups are talking!

You can say whatever you want about your intentions, but your are 100% a bigot. Were your parents against blacks and whites marrying back in the day too?

I really thought people like you and ITisWhatItIs went the way of the dinosaurs. Sadly I was wrong, slowly but surely your kind is on the way out. Thank Buddha!

For the record this isn't only about a child who is or is not gay being in the stupid BS. That child may have gay parents. So he can't join without fear of harassment because he has two dads? And you can't see what is wrong with that?

It is 2013, get with it or stay in the dark ages, but the future is moving along and you are not on board. And then you wonder why the right got spanked in the last few elections. It is called progression. Try it sometime, you might not feel so much hate and rage if you do. Peace!

Don't look now little boy scout, but in the picture, there's two grown men holding your hands.

“I think there are a lot of parents and students who will make the decision to look for other organizations that are more in line with the principles that they espouse,” he said.

It is never lost on me how ironic it is how "morals" and "principles" mean living in denial and excluding others. It hardly falls in line with the teachings of Jesus. In fact it is the antithesis of his teachings. Gay people exist in this world and they always have. The longer it takes any organization to accept them the longer they are actually giving God the big middle finger. Exclusion to make yourself feel more righteous isn't God's will.... get a clue!

Don't Ask Don't tell is just another way of saying "we a forcing you to live in secret". Living openly Gay doesn't mean flaunting it. It just means you are allowed to tell the truth if it ever comes up without consequence. Everyone has that right to not hide from the world, even in the boy scouts. Learning to tie a slip knot doesn't really help build character if your character is constantly in hiding!

And Wanda - Segregation? REALLY?? Welcome to the 60's! Call us in another 50 years when you've caught up with the rest of society.

If you let your child share a tent with the scout leader then you have far bigger problems then if they are gay or not. Some scout leaders are women, do you always allow adult women to sleep with your kids?

If you let your child share a tent with the scout leader then you have far bigger problems then if they are gay or not. Some scout leaders are women, do you always allow adult women to sleep with your kids?

If it's a female child?

Scout leaders are not supposed to share a tent with children they are not related to. Rules like this were imposed to reduce the risk of molestation. And since a gay person is no more likely to be a pedophile than a straight person, it really has no bearing on the decision.

BSA policy prohibits unrelated adults and boys from sleeping in the same tent, no matter how many people are in the tent. BSA also has the policy that men and women can not share a tent unless they are married, but most troops uphold the single gender for tents.

@EngEsq

That's not actually true. While the odds of a heterosexual molester are higher, homosexuals have been shown to molest the same person a higher number of times.

Source? Secondly, how does that support your argument? A kid is no more likely to be molested by a gay scoutmaster than a straight one. I fail to see how the duration plays into this analysis.

"Gee, Johney was only molested once at scout camp, I guess he's ok!"

this isn't just about Scout leaders. I don't want my 12 year old son in a tent with a homosexual scout just as I don't want him in a tent with a 12 year old girl. There is an inherent sexual overtone in either situation. the next step would be to segregate the Scouts by sexual preference? How about the lawsuit from that?

Gays will destroy the very institution they seek to be included and accepted. They seek to change the values of BSA.

If BSA makes this change, my son will quit, along with many many many others. Scouts should have the freedom from such things. Everybody doesn't have to be included in everything. If an atheist wanted to join my church and make his beliefs a part of that church, would we have to accept that too?

Considering pedophiles are FAR MORE LIKELY to be straight than gay (like Jerry Sandusky, btw), your fears are misplaced.

How about we cut out the middle man and just burn or cut off all genitailia for the boy scout leaders therfore no molestation of the little kids make it physically impossible and im talking about for gay and straight adults just to be careful.

@EngEsq,

Why does the source matter if you can't disprove what is being said? As a matter of fact, yes

Psychologist Eugene Abel, whose research found that homosexuals “sexually molest young boys with an incidence that is occurring from five times greater than the molestation of girls. …”

Abel also found that non-incarcerated “child molesters admitted from 23.4 to 281.7 acts per offender … whose targets were males.”

“The rate of homosexual versus heterosexual child sexual abuse is staggering,” said Reisman, who was the principal investigator for an $800,000 Justice Department grant studying child pornography and violence. “Abel’s data of 150.2 boys abused per male homosexual offender finds no equal (yet) in heterosexual violations of 19.8 girls.”

@XD Shooter

How many people were sexually active at the age of 12? Just curious. Boyscouts motto "Be prepared." Hard to do when you hide them from the realities of life.

A citation of "dr." Reisman of Eugene Abel?! Lol. Try a real source by something actually published in a reputable journal.

The burden of proof is upon the person making the claim. Further, the rate of pedophilia experienced by children cross referenced by the gender and sexual orientation of the perpetrators renders these statistics false. Nice try to spread misinformation though.

The problem is Abel starts off with the biased and erroneous premise that a man who molests a boy is a homosexual. The vast majority of pedophiles identify as heterosexual, no matter what gender of child they molested.

Bart, You obviously forgot about our "revered" priest of the catholic church. They've prayed on young boys for years with the knowledge of the cardinals and more than likely the pope himself. It was only addressed when thousands of boys/men finally exposed them for what they are , a bunch of gay pedophiles hiding behind religion. BTW, the lack of capitalization is intentional.

engesq? where do you read and show that most pedophiles are gay? pedophiles are sick beings who lust after the child like bodies. they cannot get it up or on for adults. that is the most offensive and unrealistic comment i have ever seen. you must be an @!$%# in the community to spurt such @!$%# from your lips.

Country First

You MUST NOT be involved in scouting-it called two deep leadership, no adult is ever left alone with a scout. Boy Scouts have had problems in the past but have put into place rules to prevent abuse. Get your facts or shut up.

Boy Scout leader (trained).

@misscreant

The problem is Abel starts off with the biased and erroneous premise that a man who molests a boy is a homosexual.

You're needlessly, or intentionally, confusing gender Identity with actual behavior. I highly doubt that a male repeatedly molesting a little boy is doing it because he's heterosexual.

@EngEsq

A citation of "dr." Reisman of Eugene Abel?! Lol. Try a real source by something actually published in a reputable journal.

You asked for a source and you got it. Quit trying to weasel out of it by going ad hominem/poisoning the well. Statistics are statistics. Can you disprove the information? Yes or no?

XD

The only values that are trying to be changed are ones that aren't being upheld in the first place. Honesty, acceptance, and tolerance to name a few. If you are teaching your son intolerance and closed-mindedness, you should go ahead and get him out of the Scouts before he learns something that opens his mind.

"Bart Conner

Considering pedophiles are FAR MORE LIKELY to be straight than gay (like Jerry Sandusky, btw), your fears are misplaced."

Actions speak louder than words. Just because Jerry Sandusky married a woman does NOT mean his sexual preference was for women. His abusing small MALE children proves that he was NOT heterosexual. His ACTIONS prove he was a homosexual pedophile. Many homosexual men are embarrassed by their attractions, so they will bury them and marry a woman to "mask" their true nature. Please, PLEASE quit saying that most child molesters are "heterosexuals". The fact remains, if it is a male predator and a male victim, then it is NOT a "heterosexual" act.

With that said, there are pedophiles on BOTH sides of the spectrum, and their numbers (based on the sex of the victim and the sex of the assailant) are pretty close to EQUAL.

I, personally, would not be comfortable with my son attending a camp-out with a homosexual scout or leader, just as I would not want my son attending a camp-out with a member of the opposite sex. It is inappropriate, plain and simple. And for the parents of gay teenagers. Really? Would you think it would be appropriate for your straight child to attend a camp-out with a group of teenagers of the opposite sex? Because that is essentially what you are fighting for.

I agree that it should be up to the local leaders on how to handle their individual groups, but I would hope that they would use common sense and plan camp-outs and other over-night activities wisely by separating by sexual orientation. It has nothing to do with "discrimination", but with protecting the sexual innocence of BOTH sides. My child shouldn't have to worry about whether or not the person in the tent next to him has a crush on him, and, should my child turn out to be gay, he shouldn't have to worry about whether or not the person in the tent next to him would find out if he has a crush on him. Man up and stand up for your kids, on BOTH sides, people! Do what is actually best for them instead of trying to make their lifestyle choices "mainstream".

MOMMY Bart is correct and quick calls to your States AG to get the statistics.. I'd like to know why you, MOMMY are such a prude.. by seperating you child from other childern simply because you THINK he is GAY has just NO MERIT.. stop over reacting to the situation until you have proof.. then by all means hit them with all you have.. your child will grow up as a homophobe just like you and p0robably a racists

remember folks the man in your life though married might be a child molester.. and yes hetro's are the largest child molesters, ABEL was full of Shat just like those KINSEY REPORTS, those are 99% garbage but people believed them simply out of fear.. exactly what is going on now..

Now,

Justin, there's a difference between the tolerance and acceptance that the BSA teaches and actually incorporating an ideologically different group into your ideological structure. BSA is an inherently religious organization. They ban atheists from being scout leaders because of this. Duty to God is one of the basic principles. To then say that they should allow in gays to show tolerance is like saying PETA should allow in hunters to show tolerance. Tolerance means accepting those people as people, with flaws just like everyone else, but it doesn't mean saying that what you believe is a flaw actually isn't one. That's changing your belief structure to fit the world. That's what we call conformance.

Good post Mom of 3 active. I agree when a man rapes a boy it is a Homosexual or same sex act, that person is not Heterosexual that person is just wrong in every possible way,and is doing what nature never intended.

I agree with Mommyof3. I think homosexual people have a right to their own views and freedom, etc. But, they do not have a right to make the BSA a different organization than it has been. These people are not interested in helping kids, but only in advancing their own social agenda... which they believe will someohow help. Of course I disagree.

Well, in this country we all have a right to our beliefs (as long as we don't hurt people with them) and so I suppose that if the BSA changes, people like me wil start new organizations where our kids can go camping in a way I approve of.

Ed B, Momof3 -

So, what should we call Sandusky et al? They sure as hell aren't homosexual. If they were homosexual, they'd show attraction for the secondary sexual characteristics of men. Boys that lack those characteristics are the ones that are targeted, much the same as when it happens to girls. When they say that most pedophiles are heterosexual, they mean that the pedophiles are aroused by secondary sexual characteristics of women (such as fully-developed breasts, etc.). But, these people are also aroused by the pre-pubescent characteristics of children. And, oftentimes, the crime is the result of opportunity rather than planning. So Sandusky rapes little boys because he has access to little boys, and doesn't necessarily prefer boys to girls (what excuse would he have for taking a girl into the showers, after all).

The reason that you're full of @!$%# is because you don't study this stuff. You just jump in and declare it and call it "common sense," which is really anything but sensical. People who have actually done the work (unlike you lazy bums) and studied the behaviors, the psychology, the drive behind pedophilia know a @!$%#load more than you, and they say that the majority of pederasts are heterosexual. Which makes sense, since a majority of people are heterosexual.

This is the same bull@!$%# they try to pull whenever a teacher comes out as gay, or somebody who works with kids. It's been bull@!$%# ever since it started, and I don't see you two wackos changing the bull@!$%# one bit. You don't bother to research motivation, or opportunity, or psychology. So, why don't you take your lazy asses out of Scouts, since they profess not to like laziness, intellectual or otherwise, and go indoctrinate your kids elsewhere?

Oh, and as to the "right to make BSA different," um, do you have the "right" to keep it the same? What gives you the right to put social pressure on a group and nobody else? Nobody is trying to force the BSA to change by law (they tried, it failed, and rightly so in my opinion). But, if the BSA wishes to interact with the public, they will be susceptible to social pressure, as all organizations are. It sounds like you've just got sour grapes because a growing majority of people don't hate the gays like you anymore, and now you're pining for those good old days where you could all go queer-bashing in your pickups and white sheets.

Hey ItIsWhat!t!s

I found this on your great source

Abel is the source of many exaggerated statistics on child sexual abuse and pedophilia. He arrives at these figures through patently bad science. For instance, Marshall and Eccles (1991) pointed out that Abel, in concluding that sex offenders commonly have multiple paraphilias, had silently counted any offender reporting multiple deviant acts as more than one person, greatly inflating his findings.^[1] While Abel's claim is at odds with most of the other literature, it was nonetheless accepted as gospel by the DSM

Johnny Mo 2

I take it you 'll start a which hunt to make sure none of your children's friends are gay, or perhaps make sure a teacher isn't gay, or perhaps the park ranger where your children will be camping. How about the bus driver. Have you asked your children's doctor, the plumber that might enter your house?

You have a problem with gay children and men and woman camping with your children, what do you think will happen?

I personally think every one should have the right to join an organization of their choosing, just becasue an organization is private why should we be comfortable with it being able to tell other Americans they can't join? This happened to people of color in the 60s, it was back then within those organizations rights to exclude them but that does not mean it was right for them to do so.

I am in no way religious, but I would defend, vigorously, the right for someone of any faith to be served in any restaurant they wished to enter, why not offer that to other American's as well? Why don't faith's who preach love and tolerance walk the talk?

I hope the BSA will allow gay scouts to continue and join and parents who just happen to be gay to continue to help out. Regardless, it has happened in the state of Washington before this and will continue regardless of the discussion BSA HQ makes, in that sense they have already lost.

Mommyof3activekids

Your reasoning is built around exclusion and not inclusion, you do know mothers also attend BSA camps, should they be excluding becasue they are of the opposite sex to the boys at the camp?

Also calling this a lifestyle choice is just a belittling statement ignorant of the complexity around sexuality and how it develops.

Janstince-

Just because I'm a "mommy of 3" doesn't mean I'm completely ignorant. As a victim of sexual abuse myself in my childhood, I have spent a CONSIDERABLE amount of time studying the behaviors, psychology, and the drive behind such things. I've spent over 20 years around fellow victims as well. So saying I don't know my "@%$" is a HUGE ASSumption on your part. I was merely making a point that male-on-male actions are NOT HETEROsexual actions, and therefore they shouldn't be classified as such.

If you pulled your head out of your arse enough to read the rest of what I wrote, I don't have a problem with the BSA allowing local leaders to decide for themselves how to handle the "sexuality" issue, but I DO hope (as I hope all concerned parents would hope) that special consideration would be used in planning OVER-NIGHT activities (note I didn't say ALL activities, but only the ones involving camping or sleep-overs). I would not want my teenage daughter sleeping in a tent with a bunch of teenage boys. I would not want my teenage gay son sleeping in the same tent with a bunch of straight teenage boys. I would also not like my straight son sleeping in a tent with a gay boy. It has nothing to do with bigotry or hate, but of wanting to protect my child from the embarrassment, hurt, pain, and humiliation that can come from being in uncomfortable and inappropriate situations.

ItIsWhat!t!s - You provided a source in Abel that is a known anti-gay zealot who's known to have falsified the data in the study you quote.

http://newgon.com/wiki/Gene_Abel

Boy Scouts should not discriminate. Period. For years, the BSA excluded blacks with the same ignorant arguments they use against gays today.

Time to end the stupid policy..

You asked for a source and you got it. Quit trying to weasel out of it by going ad hominem/poisoning the well.

I asked for a source and you gave me one that isn't worth salt. It clearly illustrated that your "statistics" are not real numbers. Show me a real reference and I'll entertain it.

Statistics are statistics.

Unless they are made up or cherry picked. Like yours are.

Can you disprove the information? Yes or no?

Yes. Despite the burden of proof residing upon the one making the claim and you have clearly failed to meet said burden, I'll still refute it. Btw, here are some real references:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1556756

Shows 1:11 ratio of gay to straight sex offenders.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J056v12n04_01

Refutes that homosexuality is correlated with higher incidents of pedophilia.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1300/J070v14n01_04

Shows gender identity of the pedophile is equal regardless of victim gender.

Lastly, men are 10x plus more likely to be pedophiles than women. Maybe all scut leaders should be women...

Clue to homophobes, gay isn't contagious. If your son isn't attracted to another boy, then he won't suddenly become gay because he shares a tent with a gay boy (who at age 12, probably realizes he likes boys better than girls, but just as most kids that age, isn't ready for a sexual relationship with anyone). Maybe when when gays are accepted and your straight son continues to be straight, you'll realize that there isn't anything to be afraid of. Oh, and by the way, if you think keeping gays out of the scounts with protect your precious little kids from those evils, you'll have to keep them out of school too. My straight daughter had a close lesbian friend and knew several other kids who were gay when she was in high school. Guess what? She just got married to her long time boyfriend!

Just so we know what we are taking about:

Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT). It can be expressed as antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, or hatred, and may be based on irrational fear.^[1][2][3][4]

Homophobia is observable in critical and hostile behavior such as discrimination and violence on the basis of sexual orientations that are non-heterosexual.^[1][2] According to the 2010 Hate Crimes Statistics released by the FBI National Press Office, 19.3 percent of hate crimes across the United States "were motivated by a sexual orientation bias."^[5] Moreover, in a Southern Poverty Law Center 2010 Intelligence Report extrapolating data from fourteen years (1995–2008), which had complete data available at the time, of the FBI's national hate crime statistics found that LGBT people were "far more likely than any other minority group in the United States to be victimized by violent hate crime."^[6]

Recognized types of homophobia include institutionalized homophobia, e.g. religious homophobia and state-sponsored homophobia,^[7] and internalized homophobia, experienced by people who have same-sex attractions, regardless of how they identify. Forms of homophobia toward identifiable LGBT social groups have similar yet specific names: lesbophobia^[8] – the intersection of homophobia and sexism directed against lesbians, biphobia – towards bisexuality and bisexual people, and transphobia, which targets transsexualism, transsexual and transgender people, and gender variance or gender role nonconformity.

Mommyof3activekids

This is a common misconception that if an adult male abuses male children they must therefore be gay. However it has been clinically shown that the child object of abuse more often than not DOES NOT reflect the offenders sexuality, it more often reflects the opportunity.

The married man with children is a straight man who is a pedophile and abuses male children becasue the opportunity exits for example for him to coach the baseball team, the opportunity making it more likely that he is in contact with boys than girls.

These interactions are neither heterosexual nor are they homosexual, this designation has been made by people more qualified and than myself or your good self.

Homosexuals & Pedophilia

(paper by Dr. Herek UC Davis)

The distinction between a victim's gender and a perpetrator's sexual orientation
is important because many child molesters don't really have an adult sexual
orientation. They have never developed the capacity for mature sexual
relationships with other adults, either men or women. Instead, their sexual
attractions focus on children – boys, girls, or children of both sexes.

Over the years, this fact has been incorporated into various systems for
categorizing child molesters. For example, Finkelhor and Araji (1986) proposed
that perpetrators' sexual attractions should be conceptualized as ranging along
a continuum – from exclusive interest in children at one extreme, to exclusive
interest in adult partners at the other end.

Typologies of offenders have often included a distinction
between those with an enduring primary preference for children as sexual
partners and those who have established age-appropriate relationships but become
sexually involved with children under unusual circumstances of extreme stress.
Perpetrators in the first category – those with a more or less exclusive
interest in children – have been labeled fixated. Fixation means "a
temporary or permanent arrestment of psychological maturation resulting from
unresolved formative issues which persist and underlie the organization of
subsequent phases of development" (Groth & Birnbaum, 1978, p. 176). Many
clinicians view fixated offenders as being "stuck" at an early stage of
psychological development.

By contrast, other molesters are described as regressed. Regression is
"a temporary or permanent appearance of primitive behavior after more mature
forms of expression had been attained, regardless of whether the immature
behavior was actually manifested earlier in the individual's development" (Groth
& Birnbaum, 1978, p. 177). Regressed offenders have developed an adult
sexual orientation but under certain conditions (such as extreme stress) they
return to an earlier, less mature psychological state and engage in sexual
contact with children.

Some typologies of child molesters divide the fixation-regression distinction
into multiple categories, and some include additional categories as well (e.g.,
Knight, 1989).

For the present discussion, the important point is that many child molesters
cannot be meaningfully described as homosexuals, heterosexuals, or bisexuals (in
the usual sense of those terms) because they are not really capable of a
relationship with an adult man or woman. Instead of gender, their sexual
attractions are based primarily on age. These individuals – who are often
characterized as fixated – are attracted to children, not to men or women.

Using the fixated-regressed distinction, Groth and Birnbaum (1978) studied
175 adult males who were convicted in Massachusetts of sexual assault against a
child. None of the men had an exclusively homosexual adult sexual orientation.
83 (47%) were classified as "fixated;" 70 others (40%) were classified as
regressed adult heterosexuals; the remaining 22 (13%) were classified as
regressed adult bisexuals. Of the last group, Groth and Birnbaum observed that
"in their adult relationships they engaged in sex on occasion with men as well
as with women. However, in no case did this attraction to men exceed
their preference for women....There were no men who were primarily sexually
attracted to other adult males..." (p.180).

Other researchers have taken different approaches, but have similarly failed to
find a connection between homosexuality and child molestation. Dr. Carole Jenny
and her colleagues reviewed 352 medical charts, representing all of the sexually
abused children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver
children's hospital during a one-year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30,
1992). The molester was a gay or lesbian adult in fewer than 1% in which an
adult molester could be identified – only 2 of the 269 cases (Jenny et al.,
1994).

In yet another approach to studying adult sexual attraction to children, some
Canadian researchers observed how homosexual and heterosexual adult men
responded to slides of males and females of various ages (child, pubescent, and
mature adult). All of the research subjects were first screened to ensure that
they preferred physically mature sexual partners. In some of the slides shown to
subjects, the model was clothed; in others, he or she was nude. The slides were
accompanied by audio recordings. The recordings paired with the nude models
described an imaginary sexual interaction between the model and the subject. The
recordings paired with the pictures of clothed models described the model
engaging in neutral activities (e.g., swimming). To measure sexual arousal,
changes in the subjects' penis volume were monitored while they watched the
slides and listened to the audiotapes. The researchers found that homosexual
males responded no more to male children than heterosexual males responded to
female children (Freund et al., 1989).

Science cannot prove a negative. Thus, these studies do not prove that
homosexual or bisexual males are no more likely than heterosexual males to
molest children. However, each of them failed to prove the alternative
hypothesis that homosexual males are more likely than heterosexual men to molest
children or to be sexually attracted to children or adolescents.

Mommyof3activekids - maybe sexual acts between a grown man and a boy are not hetro acts, but neither are they gay acts. They are acts of pedophilia - period. As many have mentioned here, most pedophiles identify as hetro and are married with children. The sort of person it seems that you'd be comfortable sending one of your kids on a camping trip with.

As a bigot, I would just like to say that I would not like to have gay leaders around my children trying to convince them that their unnatural way of life is natural. As a former scoutmaster of 15 years I tried to set a positive example for all my scouts. The gay crap never came up, but if it would have, it would have been put down as wrong in the blink of an eye. As I have said before, I will put up with people being gay and even have them as neighbors but don't try to get me to accept this as something that is Ok. Because people like Steve and I won't get along very well.

Hopefully what I posted will clear up some of the misconceptions about Gays.

I do hope for the sake of our children that you read it, and understand it.

If you take nothing else away know this:

Sex & Sexuality has no business being discussed or brought up in the BSA activities, meetings, dens, & or around any child in any way by it's leaders or den parents.

Michael-4273928

Your allowed to be a bigot in this country....Just don't force your views on our children. I don't force mine. Our children have a hard enough time growing up.

They don't fully uinderstand.

You have no right or business bringing up sexuality with them in the first place.

Michael-4273928

Of course you can be a bigot. Just don't try and teach my children your views.

You wouldn't be a scout master very long in Washington State.

Momof3 -

It is pederasty, not homosexuality. As has been explained to you. Multiple times.

I never said that molestation was a heterosexual act, I said the perpetrators identify more as heterosexual than as homosexual, in terms of their adult relationships, and therefore you shouldn't be worried about whether a scout master was gay, rather you should be worried about whether a scout master was a pedophile. Being gay has nothing to do with pedophilia, and vice versa. No reputable study has found there to even be a correlation.

As far as the idea of a gay 12-y.o. sleeping in a tent with a straight 12-y.o., um, isn't one of the lessons in Scouting about personal responsibility and self control? For another, I don't think we really have to worry about this. Nothing in the news about gay 12-year olds raping straight boys or anything. Plenty about 10-year old boys raping 9-year old girls, but seems to me that gay boys are more often picked on than being bullies themselves. In which case, a separate tent isn't going to cut it.

Also, your boys have homosexual classmates, statistically speaking. They're already showering with them and getting all dirty in those dogpiles on the football field, slapping each others' asses and doing homoerotic ritual bonding in pads. I know, I did it, and I'm pretty sure at least one of my teammates was gay. Didn't gay me up or anything.

So, according to all these arguments, gay women should be scout leaders since they will have no interest in molesting boys.

iknowzero

There was a lesbian den leader of her sons troop...She was asked to leave the scouts, because she is gay.

She had done nothing wrong, and was reguarded as one of the best leaders in her state.

Steve

That is a shame. My comment was to point out the absurdity of the arguments here and what happens if you follow the reasoning to the logical conclusion.

And it's amazing how these arguments are almost identical to those used against blacks 50 years ago. For example, blacks were feared to be sexual predators who would rape white women if the races were allowed to mingle.

iknowzero

I agree...I have pointed out the danger of this type of thinking before, in that the Nazi made gay men wear pink triangles and the lesbians wear black ones. They where looked at as half the worth of the Jewish, thus given half the Star of David. Many LGBT where killed, experimented on and everything you have heard about the death camps and then some.

The Nazi youth where not immune. They would line them up and try and determine who might be gay and have them castrated or killed in order to keep the race pure. Young girls where raped and forced to have children in an effort to "change" them and to keep the race pure.

We know that the mass exterminations had to do with a warped interpretation of religion & a one sided view of people.

This type of thinking is very dangerous. For those of us that are LGBT we know about the past and that is why we are vocal today......So we do not repeat it.

Why does the American Taliban have such a difficult time accepting the notion of "justice and liberty for all ?"

If anything needs to be ban it is the notion god loves one soul more or less than another.

FYI; I am the father of 3, step-father of 2 and proud grandfather of 5, but most of all an American who believes all are entitled to the same privileges and immunities.

So do I, Ellis. The world is full of enough hate. Though I'm straight myself, I have nothing against the LGBT community. In fact, I have 3 family members who are such. However, I still love them, the way they are. They don't mess around with kids, either.

The majority of those caught messing with kids are in fact, otherwise straight, usually married, adults, placed in a trusted position with them. The chance of a child being molested by one of the LGBT community are slim, as evidenced by Steve's posts above & other reading on the subject that I've ran across.

The chance of it happening with someone "trusted", like a minister, also as evidenced on the Vine, is far greater.

Cat

@EngEsq

asked for a source and you gave me one that isn't worth salt.

You asked for a source and you got one. Ad homenem attacks and appeals to authority don't make your sources any more credible.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1556756

Doesn't take into account the number of underreported incidents of child molestation.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1300/J070v14n01_04

Uses one of the smallest samples I've seen.

Homosexuality is defined as sexual relations between the same sex. Those studies are generally also fatally flawed by the verbal gynastics regarding gender identity. Society, and the law, identifies a person by their actions, not their perception of themselves. There's plenty of sex offenders in jail who don't think they deserve to be there.

@StMiller,

http://newgon.com/wiki/Gene_Abel

That site relies to heavily on personal attacks -- Generally, without specific examples -- and appeals to authority over actual statistics.

While I do not hate the Homosexual individual, I do hate that Gay activists continuely mess with Christians and want to remove their rights, not all groups are for everyone. There is a such thing as Man/Boy love and perhaps pedophiles are not the same as gay but other than taking children to meetings and having their own tent if they choose to go, but pushing their way into leaderships under the guise of rights is uncalled for, In a case someone on another post where a boy did not get a patch/or medal because he was gay, ok that was wrong..... but I believe it is agenda not rights that is being pushed, just like when they we giving Chick fil A such a difficult time as to make them some kind of example....You better think like us or else.....I have rights and freedom too and if I believe the bible and it numerous places where it condems the act of homosexuality......I can believe it and If i want to protect my children I have that right also. Leave the Boy Scouts alone.... Stop trying to force yourselves in, be Gay on your time How selfish can you be.......Revision could be made as far as parents go, and the earning badges or medals, but other than that. No leadership roles.....

@Steve

That whole article sounds like a bunch of delusional manure. It disingenuously argues, as the others have done, that gender identity is an adequate measuring stick for sexual behavior or attraction. The mental state of the perpetrator says nothing about effect on the victim.

ItIsWhat!t!s -

Beats the @!$%# out of the completely flawed methodology and numbers-magic that your boy Abel did. Those aren't statistics, those are ass-goblins, coming from his ass, because he has no idea how to actually put together a real scientific inquiry. Nuff said.

Andie -

Go found your Bigot Scouts. You have every right to protect your kids from homosexuals - lock them in the basement and never let them see the light of day. Well, that's child abuse, but you can keep them locked up in the house forever, or at least until they turn 18. I don't think they'll thank you for it, though. I think they'd rather actually meet some gay people and realize that, hey, they're just people, not some oversized fantasy demon you read about in some Chick Track.

ItIsWhat!t!s - You can't claim as a source a man who's work hasn't been published in a peer reviewed journal because it is known to contain data that has been falsified. You might as well have made up something of your own and quoted yourself. Gene Abel won't publish his study in a reputable peer reviewed journal because he knows that it would immediately be debunked.

Also, you can't go around saying..."Bam...I found you a source" knowing full well that that source is as disreputable as Gene Abel.

They allow women to be cub scout leaders, but just like gay men they like other men not boys.

The VAST majority of pedophiles are heterosexual!

Emma3, You are absolutely right BECAUSE the VAST majority of people are heterosexual. If you could calculate that fact on a proportionate basis, I THINK???? you would find something totally different

"Gays just don't get it. God weighed in on this subject from the beginning of time when he created a man and a woman."

Show me where. :)

Can you comprehend what you read? once again "When he created a man and woman"

Take it up with Him.

I "took it up with him" last night. Ever since god came out of the closet, he has been a little whore.

When god created the two first gay men in his own image, that is when the party really started!

Bob Freebird

Your a sick bastard. It's one thing to be an Atheist but it's another to make a statement like you did. There are a lot of good Christian People but making statements like that is probably the reason there have been so many wars through the years. It's OK if you don't believe in God but don't go looking for trouble.

Just like Newtown? Allowing a gay teenager to be awarded the Eagle Scout badge he earned is like shooting innocent children? Wow. You are just chock full of hatred, aren't you? And you actually BELIEVE those lies that you wrote? Perhaps it's time to ask God to forgive YOU for your sins!

Can you comprehend what you read? once again "When he created a man and woman"

But we have a huge amount of scientific proof that no such thing happened. So, again, where is your proof?

I'll go looking for trouble anywhere I please. God made me believe in him last night; I can hardly walk today!

The photos accompanying this article are evidence that not all established Christian faiths consider homosexualty "unchristian". Many mainstream protestant churches are "open and affirming". But Christians are just one faith- BSA promotes reverance of God, which of course includes other major religions with their own liberal and conservative branches. BSA truly is in a horribly tight spot, and no matter which alternative they choose, it's going to fracture the organization, at least for a while.

BTW, Yafoolsfosho, I think Reverend Bigot and Pastor Ignorance are just about as scary as crackhead pastor and Reverend Molestor.

Liberals won't be happy until everyone is an atheist, LGBT, gun hating person of color. Too bad they don't practice the very type of acceptance that they scream for. Such moronic hypocrites.

Bob Freebird

Your a sick bastard. It's one thing to be an Atheist but it's another to make a statement like you did.

Actually, the only problem with Bob's statement is that he referred to God in the masculine. Everyone knows that God is a female. Only a busy mother could be so organized that she could create the universe in six days.

God weighed in on this subject from the beginning of time when he created a man and a woman.

Prove there's a god!

He did not intend for two men to get together and take turns pretending to be a woman or two women taking turns pretending to be a man.

So you speak for god now? Delusion alert!

All these Gay pedophiles are just drooling at the prospects of getting at these innocent children.

Typical homophobic willful ignorance: you don't know the difference between homosexuality and pedophilia.

he is condoning and promoting this immoral lifestyle to his kids and other people kids to be placed in the presence of sick and depraved pedophiles.

Morality is subjective!

once again "When he created a man and woman"

That's nice. prove it!

Take it up with Him.

A cop out response!