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Subscribe to RSSChris Kyle, a sniper in Iraq, was so feared that he was dubbed "The Devil of Ramadi" and had an $80,000 bounty on his head. Tragically, it wasn't enemy fire that killed him, but a fellow soldier asking for help with PTSD. NBC's Jim Miklaszewski reports.
Firing bullets at a gun range — as a Marine reservist was doing Saturday when he allegedly killed ex-Navy SEAL and "American Sniper" author Chris Kyle — can ignite combat flashbacks, a leading expert on post-traumatic stress disorder said Monday, adding, however, that hunting and target practice can be therapeutic for veterans if their shooting buddies intimately know war.
“The question being asked is: Wouldn’t the shooting of a weapon out in the open trigger feelings, nightmares, flashbacks? The answer is, yes, it can,” said Dr. Harry Croft, a San Antonio-based psychiatrist who has talked with more than 7,000 veterans diagnosed with PTSD. “But the hope would be that those would be triggered in a situation that’s safe, where other people are there who understand PTSD and could help the person cope with the thoughts that may come back to them.
“In situations like a shooting range, the sounds may set off a hyper-vigilant response, maybe flashbacks and nightmares at night. But it doesn’t make you violent, like you’re going to kill the person around you. And if the person around you is a Chris Kyle, a Navy SEAL who knows and can support you, then that experience can have a more positive effect,” Croft said.
Eddie Ray Routh, 25, a Marine Corps corporal from 2006 to 2010 who deployed to Iraq in 2007 and Haiti in 2010, was arraigned Sunday on two counts of capital murder in the deaths of Kyle, 38, and Chad Littlefield, 35, at a shooting range in North Texas. Both men were killed with a semi-automatic handgun.
According to Erath County Sheriff Tommy Bryant, Routh "may have been suffering from some type of mental illness from being in the military himself." Bryant added that Routh's mother possibly contacted Kyle to try to help her son. The sheriff also learned, he said, that the three men might have been at the range “for some type of therapy that Mr. Kyle assists people with.”
Organized veteran hunting excursions and shooting clubs — meant to be part bonding experience, part brief return to comfortable turf and tools — have proliferated across the country in recent years, particularly as American troops departed Iraq and as they continue to pull out of Afghanistan. Croft estimated that about 20 percent of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans have a form of PTSD, ranging from mild to severe.
“I talk all the time about the importance of good support systems for those suffering from PTSD, and articulate, bright, fellow military members like Kyle might have an ability to help a young troop with PTSD more than most (others) might,” said Croft, who co-authored “I Always Sit with My Back to the Wall: Managing Traumatic Stress and Combat PTSD.”
“That’s why it would be very rare if, all of a sudden, (the suspect) got triggered feelings and then would turn the gun and shoot this guy in the back. Something happened that we don’t know or understand, I believe,” said Croft, who has never worked with Routh. “This behavior is totally atypical for people with just PTSD. There can be rage, anger, aggression, agitation, even violence, yes. But it’s generally directed toward family members or one’s self, in terms of this suicide epidemic. Rarely is it outside of that circle.”
The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs has occasionally partnered with the Tampa, Fla.-based Black Dagger Military Hunt Club to hold shooting programs for veterans. In July, the club is sponsoring the trap shooting competition for the 2013 National Veterans Wheelchair Games in Tampa, providing ammunition and clays. Black Dagger, made up of ex-military members, also holds four to six shooting events per year. Every participant is briefed beforehand by “range safety officers" and supplied weapons. The veterans then work one-on-one with expert shooters, said founder Dave Winters, a 20-year Air Force member who retired as a senior master sergeant.
“We tell them: If at any time you feel uncomfortable about what’s going on out here, if the noise is too loud, put your weapon down, talk to your range safety buddy and just indicate that you need to walk away,” Winters said.
“We’ve had several who were real uneasy about approaching it at first, but once they saw that it was a comfortable thing, (and of course that) no one is shooting at them, that’s what I think helps them. It kind of normalizes them,” Winters said. (One Afghanistan veteran in the club), who feels like no one can relate to him, said that when he’s back out at the range, shooting and talking, it's just like when he was in his unit. It just makes them feel a lot better.”
In central Florida, the Sportsmen’s Foundation for Military Families escorts combat veterans — and their spouses, children, parents or siblings — onto leased land for weekend hunting trips.
“We never cater to just the veteran. Two veterans — or a group of veterans — who are out in the woods together, that does not improve coping skills, generally speaking. What improves their coping skills is their family,” said Barry Hull, a retired Navy commander and F/A-18 Hornet pilot who flew on the first night strike of Desert Storm. He has helped the Sportsmen's Foundation on the business side and attended several hunts.
The group is based on the concept that hunting trips “give the veteran and family a sense that they can once again be like they were, that those good days can be had again, particularly with those who have physical injuries and limitations,” Hull said.
“What improves a veteran’s coping skills is their family. And I know a lot of people want to say, 'Well, they're my military family.' They’re really not your family. Your family is really what I would call the classical definition of family — that's it for the long haul,” Hull said. “If you can develop those coping skills, communication picks up at home. We know that just simply being able to identify your demons lowers the effect (of PTSD). And that's what we do when we get the family out there on these adventures.
“The worst thing you can do is get a bunch of veterans out there in the woods, whooping and hollering and telling war stories, maybe drinking some beer, and not including the family. What does it do? It drives a bigger wedge between the veteran and the family. It's another distance maker,” Hull added. “What does that do? It adds more stress.”
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Wow - how very sad. Killed at a shooting range, which, according to the logic of Wayne LaPierre and the NRA, should be the safest place in America!
How very clever. You should be proud of your ability to score debate points off the death of a veteran who was trying to help another vet with a psychological disorder. Stand tall, sir. You are an intellectual giant.
Semper Fi, your right, problem is your brain didn't think deep enough, who did the killer talk to before he murdered them is the question that should be ask. what do you think their buddy, have any idea's yourself, things coming to mind, sure been alot of people dieing this past and future coming year hasn't their? i for one spell something rotten. All this man wanted for him and family was getting a better life and the worst behind. now the family wants answers and don't blame them.
Spicy Bamburger,
So, you think its wise to help a vet with PTSD by taking him to a gun range? I swear, this whole gun argument is getting just so ridiculous. You know, I am not trying to dishonor anyone's memory or make light of a death, but these men loved guns and shooting, so that's how they died..on the receiving end this time. You reap what you sow. People who think there should be no laws or restrictions on guns, including assault weapons, will continue to argue no matter how many people die, so I just don't pay attention anymore. Your'e all a bunch of paranoid extremists in my opinion. Own a gun, thats fine, but we don't need assualt weapons, and people need to have extensive background checks before they are allowed to purchase these things. And this incident brings to the forefront another problem.. serving in wars and conflicts is causing people to become mentally unstable and violent, but the government is not providing the necessary treatment for these vets when they return. But, oh I'm just some liberal who doesn't know anything right? Well, then, shoot me...I'm unarmed
Personally, I'm not comfortable around people with "psychological disorders" who have loaded guns.
.....but that's just me.
He shot two people at a gun range, and then just drove away?
Weren't there any "good guys with guns" at the shooting range?
Maybe the gun range should hire a teacher or a school custodian to protect them?
This type of PTSD treatment should only been done under the supervision of a trained psychiatric professional. Not an Ex-Navy seal. I'm sorry that two lives where lost. I hope this shows that the mental issues need to be addressed along with the other issues associated with Gun Violence.
Place needs armed guards.
jkane1
Excuse me? Some may have been innocent? You obviously know absolutely nothing of what you speak.
The targets Chris had in the sandbox were nothing more than combatants shooting at our people. YOU might consider them innocent, I most assuredly do not.
And PLEASE explain to me exactly what an "assault weapon" is. It seems the idiots in Washington don't know and have listed anything that makes it look scary. You know, those really scary black guns with all that black stuff on it. Yes, I know it was redundant, but that was the point.
FU
Spicy, truth is truth regardless where is come from or when it happens. Gliderdriver is right. According to La Pierre's and the NRA's principles, a shooting range should be the safest place on earth. They claim that there would be fewer gun deaths if more people were armed. Isn't that what they say? So, Glider is simply stating truth. It's not just a debate point. The death of innocent people, including Kyle and Littlefield in this incident, is the best time to talk about gun deaths. Otherwise what's the point of talking about it at all.
Glider,
How many other shave been killed at a shooting range?
Seems that they are pretty safe and most people there have guns and are shooting.
Don't talk logic and fact, NC-492358; it'll ruin the libbies' parroting of their canned DNC anti-gun crap.
!
Want to hear what the real "problem" us Freedom Loving Americans have with you
Right-wing, Ted Nugent, "Gun-Nut" types, who have to "Cling to your Guns and Bibles"?
Of course you do, and I'm going to tell you!
You have your brand new shiny Corvette and you run a Red Light and
you run broadside into my beat-up old jalopy of a car,
and you go "Emotionally-Wacko" on me, and you pull your gun and shoot me!
You "Gun-Nuts" are just that.......
bottom-feeding, low-life, knuckle-dragging, Neandrethal "Gun-Nuts"
I'm just verbalizing what Everybody knows to be True!
"Once a Gun-Nut, always a Gun-Nut".
You're "Fear-based".
Thank God, President Obama is going to Confiscate
all your Assault Weaponry and your High Capacity Magazines,
and Close your obscene "Gun-Show Loopholes"
It's about frigging time!
And I'm really glad that the Obama Administration is planning on
Re-Instating the infamous "Obama Snitch Line", so us Freedom Loving Americans
can Report you "Gun-Nuts" to the proper Authorities, if you "Get Out of Line".
And remember, I'm a Republican!!!
I'd still take my chances and go to a shooting range over a drive in the city (Chicago or Detroit) any day.....
Gun clubs? NO. Golf clubs? YES! Make Par, Not War.
RepublicansforObama,
You want to be a snitch on your neighbors and fellow citizens eh? Why don't you change your name to NaziforObama! When you support any program that gets people penalized, arrested, or otherwise interfered with for exercising a Constitutional right (felons and psychological cases excepted) then you're worthless as an American and are a prime candidate to be hoisted on your own petard.
It seems to me that this tragedy is a prime example of the fact that mental health care needs to be expanded instead of more gun control laws. But of course you won't see that aspect of it, will you?
Also, fear based? With gangs and criminals that prey on good citizens, with home invasions and assaults out on the streets, there is a good reason for a certain amount of fear and a good reason for taking steps towards the safety of one's home, family and person.. You'll find that having a gun at home when someone is trying to break in in the middle of the night will be a lot more effective than pissing your pants and being victimized as you wait for the cops to arrive- if you had the time to call them or wait for them to arrive. Its funny how the cases of justifiable homicide don't get half the coverage in the press that a successful criminal will get...
Yeah!
I got a Response for my inane yet provocative Rant!
Want to be my Face-Book friend?
please?
The only way I would feel safe with another person who has a gun is if I could know what is going on in that persons mind at all times. Until that happens, I will never ever trust anyone with a gun!
No place is safe if your killer is deranged & wants to kill you. Gun or no gun. I guess they could have gone to a batting cage & had the same outcome.
Of course. Hitting a ball often conjures images of the enemy trying to tag you out at first base.
For a batter, the play at first is normally a force-out, not a tag.
You might surprise one person with a bat, but not two.
This type of PTSD treatment should only been done under the supervision of a trained psychiatric professional. Not an Ex-Navy seal. I'm sorry that two lives where lost. I hope this shows that the mental issues need to be addressed along with the other issues associated with Gun Violence.
I might be going out on the limb here but I think their have been more deaths at sporting events than shooting ranges
Wrong! First off, we don't know the situation here, until the facts are out. We dont know who was the agressor, and who was the victim. After all, the Marine could have been just defending himself.
And the gun crazed NRA brainwashed dip chit that said he could have done the same with a baseball bat is taking stupid pills. If the Marine had used a baseball, the two people that are dead would still be alive.
DeerHunter, you are taking STUPID PILLS, and washing it down with NRA-KOOL-AID!
...
To become a real soldier or warrior you must understand that your body is only a vessel. You are an energy within the body perform your job in the spirit of sacrifice and full of responsibility.
Twenty years ago, I was with my uncle walking through the woods, when a light rain started. He started acting confused. Luckily a friend, who had been a medic in Viet Nam recognized what was going on and was able to talk my uncle back. You see, my uncle had been in Viet Nam and had to shoot a young boy who had thrown a grenade into group of Marines. The rain and smell of wet earth had caused him to flash back to his time in Viet Nam. War is traumatic and leaves lasting impressions on people, even if they don't recognize it.
this never would've happened if only the victims had been armed. (that is how we're supposed to respond to all shootings now, right?)
hey a joker, yep your about as smart as the man you put in office, you a tyrant also? you are free because of the military and the weapons we used, period, you are a ass. you don't want freedom, go to the middle east, wait a minute, we have a president bringing that right here.
I stopped reading there.
To attack a persons intelligence after the hot mess of literary genius you put out there, is akin to a hillbilly calling his sister his mother too.
It just isn't right.
nothing wrong with that if it's true.
and Michael, we've been forced to listen to that same offensive argument from the NRA after every recent school, theater, and playground shooting. now you know what it sounds like.
@Michael...if you don't love it...leave it
Right now in America we have over ONE MILLION angry and upset Veterans who are waiting for a disability claim decision. They will have to wait at least FOUR YEARS. Their recruiters promised free post-service heath care and disability compensation, but the recruiter misled. Some of these veterans have a tendency towards violence as indicated by the new "veterans courts" popping up all over the nation.
If just one tenth of one percent of these angry veterans (one thousand) goes on a rampage that is three incidents per day just like this one.
If our Government was smart they would figure out how to porcess these claims and pay tghem, but we have no money to do so.
Welcome to Patriotic America - the land of the naive and the land of the fool.
Your comment assumes that anyone and everyone who is either angry or has been ripped off is also a psychotic murderer.
Would you like to share your theories regarding women, black people, hispanics, Jews, cripples? Are these people automatically inferior to you, are they automatically murderers?
The home of the Tea-party, with the answer is "No spending!". And the righteous folks, who think that if the USA doesn't help Israel with MORE WAR, we are anti-Semites, or anti-God, or generally some sort of a sac-religious sleazebags. They seem to think Israel is feeble lot, who can't take care of themselves.
Yeah, well, grouch-o, "You'll be alone'.
Government is cutting back on Veteran's Health Benefits to help fund Obama Care and to give free medical to illegal immigrants.
By the way, my family are LEGAL immigrants from Mexico. My cousin served as a Ranger in Desert Storm.
Veteran's Health Benefits have been chronically under funded, none of it is going to Obama Care, and we do not give free medical care using federal dollars to illegal immigrants.
Spine bob, before you jump on the "Blame Obama" bandwagon look up how your Republican congressmen voted in response to veterans requests for mental health funding.
Jon 1321288, We dont give illegals free health care you need to pull your head out of obamas rump, hospitals give care to them all the time, they dont pay using phony addy's then at the end of the year write it off, then the tax payer is stuck again with the bill and hospitals up their costs then when you need to use it we the people are paying for the illegals.
Yes, some hospitals pick up the tab for health care when people can't afford it, and the vast majority of those people are not illegal immigrants. And there is no federal program that pays for this. Some of the cost is passed on in higher insurance costs. When it is a publicly funded hospital it adds to the cost of the public funding, which is more likely to be local or state than federal. And again, most of this cost is not coming from illegal aliens. And Obama Care, by adding more people to the insurance roles will actually help with this situation. Think with your head, not your hate.
There is no doubt this story will be spun like a top: who he voted for, if it was a 30 rd clip, an assault rifle, his views on gun control, religion, etc.. This was a terrible act. Unless you have ESP it is hard to predict what will happen next in any given moment. There will be "I told you so's" out the wazoo over this.
It is simply a tragic act. Regardless which side you are on the fact remains not all gun violence can be stopped. We lost a great hero, who saved many US soldier's lives by what he did.
I rarely agree with Ron Paul, but I totally agree with him that randomly getting PTSD afflicted veterans re-acquainted with the sounds, sensations, and smells of weaponry getting shot off is a BAD IDEA, and nobody with half a brain should need ESP to foresee that it might not always turn out really well. I'm not saying that it couldn't be therapeutic sometimes, but I also can't think of anything more likely to "trigger" a bad PTSD-related reaction than sustained bursts of gunfire and other loud bangs. There are countless combat veterans who, though patriotic and generally stable, find Fourth of July fireworks unsettling. A lot of people will say "I told you so" because this tragic event WAS foreseeable.
John - Twenty years ago, I was with my uncle walking through the woods, when a light rain started. He started acting confused. Luckily a friend, who had been a medic in Viet Nam recognized what was going on and was able to talk my uncle back. You see, my uncle had been in Viet Nam and had to shoot a young boy who had thrown a grenade into group of Marines. The rain and smell of wet earth had caused him to flash back to his time in Viet Nam. War is traumatic and leaves lasting impressions on people, even if they don't recognize it.
In the meantime, Obamba is doing his best to ignore these wounded and disturbed vets. It will come back to haunt him.
Why keep spreading lies like this? It is just a fact that Obama has spent more time with wounded vets in his first four years than Bush did in eight years. Easy to verify. Why lie? Because you are nasty? Because you are a Republican? Because you are a phony Christian?
Obama has made services for vets and wounded and disabled vets a priority. Michelle O has made visiting vets her top priority. But you just keep making up your petty little lies.
Thiss is a sad story, three men that served their country were lost by this sad situation. Unfortunately the beaurocratic process is lenghtened by understaffed and underfunded VA Centers that don't have the resources or skilled staff to get to everyone as quickly as they would like. Treatment requests spike when Active/Reserve/Guard units come back from deployment and only have a certain amount of time to be seen before their benefits run out. On the other hand, members of these units see others getting benefits and want a piece of the action. It has become nearly impossible to determine who really needs immediate treatment and who is embelishing their condition in hopes of getting lifelong medical benefits. In my 24 years in the US Army, I can sadly say that many are clogging a system with the hope of getting a handout, while those truly needing treatment are cast among the pretenders while the system sorts through a terribly ineffective system of get help to those that really need it.
Rex
You are a Moron. Your Hate/stupidity will come back to Bite you!
Sorry, but Owebama is not that caring. he had hazardous and combat duty pay cut.
onermailliw,
Instead of being so concerned about combat pay being cut, you may want to concern yourself with the government sending these people overseas to combat situations. What did you do and how loud did you protest when our people were sent into Iraq? THAT was the time to speak up. The military members rely on the citizenry to ride herd on the government's stupider and more questionable decisions to send them into combat. Keep them out of these situations and there will be no "Owe" about it, even if the government calls you names and accuses you of being un-American for opposing it's wishes.
Rex: If you will remember, it was Bush and Cheney who (1) sent them to a useless war, and then (2) ignored them when they came home. Walter Reed was not the only scandal regarding veterans in the Bush/Cheney administration. There was also something about manipulating the service dates of National Guard veterans (who ever thought of using the National Guard to fight a war on foreign soil?) to denying or delay their benefits. Then there are the wait times for various medical services and benefits. This crap came straight from the traitors known as Bush and Cheney--a pair too cowardly to fight but not too cowardly to use our service members to fight and die for their sick little greedy games. They used these people as pawns, with not a care in the world about how they would be cared for when they came back. This is not something you can honestly blame on Obama.
Rex would you please STFU!!
We need to have armed guards at all veteran and hunting club shooting ranges. Since there will be lots of folks with guns coming and going with some having and using automatic weapons, the guards will need higher calibre and faster firing guns. Obviously.
Can't we just give a gun to the janitor?
Two thoughts about this guy: What was he thinking taking another vet who was having mental problems to a shooting range? Duh? Also I have NO RESPECT for any soldier who brags about his kills on the battlefield or in modern times anywhere the enemy is located. To write a book to me is against the rules of war, and there ARE rules of war. How would Americans have felt if this situation was reversed?
I'm pretty sure he never bragged about his kills, and I saw a quote from him saying that he did not want to publish the number of his confirmed kills, but the publisher insisted. On "Stars Earn Stripes" he seemed like a very humble man, someone who would respect you, even though you have shown clear disdain for him. Also, how is recording one's experience in war against the "rules of war"? Would you rather have history recorded by those who lived it, or by those who heard about it second- or third-hand?
Fairly certain the rules of war have nothing to do with books, lol. But sweet try at discrediting what you surely consider a baby killer.
Keep it real in the hippie northwest, hopefully reality doesn't set in on you people any time soon, I'd hate to see your reaction..... thumbs up
1. He--Chris Kyle--was working as a volunteer to help veterns with PTSD. Part of the help was to get them through experiences with guns--to try to prevent them from going a bit crazy.
2. He wrote a book--because a publisher talked him into doing so. The book is about the work, career, and experiences of a sniper. He--Kyle--did not want the number of kills included in the book, the publisher insisted upon inculding the number of kills, in order to increase book sales. He did not 'brag'.
There are no rules of war nor laws which prohibit a veteran from writing a book about his or her war experiences. There are thousands of books written over centuries.
live by the gun , die by the gun. even if you try to switch to a pen.....
People with PTSD or any mental illness should not be around guns.
All others should stand at the ready to defend your home and family just like all through history. This is not a time of world peace , so we must be ready , not surrendering our arms and asking to be protectected. they can't protect themselves...,. you're on your own.
Uh, right....
A struggling veteran should not go to a shooting range by himself, especially with a weapon.
A struggling veteran probably shouldn't be at a range, especially a public one, estblished or informal, on a Saturday afternoon when everybody and their dog will be there.
There is nothing wrong with a very small group going at an 'off time' when they're likely to be the only ones there.
My gut feeling is that what happened wasn't a flashback or a PTSD type of issue. I think what happened was the killer had been talking at length about his life and situation with the other two, who may have only nominally 'been listening' (like a barber or a bar tender would) while he vented, and when it was his turn to squeeze a few off, the knowledge that he'd admitted something embarrassing or incriminating about himself to them may have got the best of him and he lashed out impulsively from panic. Sometimes people with problems get to talking and don't realize when it's a good idea to stop sharing until after they've let something slip that could come back to haunt them if they let the wrong person know...something where they'd rather die than live to see it spread through the community, or something that could land them in prison or on death row. It could be this wasn't the first time he'd killed someone and realized too late that's not something he wanted to let other people know.
'Two on one' is a good policy for shooting with a stranger or someone who is not well known, as long as both of the 'two' are solid allies who will stick up for each other, and there's more than one gun present. When the 'newbie' is on the firing line, at least one of the two is watching him in case he turns and is ready to tackle him or have a weapon on him. The reason I point this out is because, while it is very rare, there is nothing new about a new 'shooting buddy' who is barely an acquaintance to actually be a criminal looking to steal a firearm through robbery, and possibly murder. This is how the robbers killed in the April 1986 shootout with FBI agents in Miami acquired some or most of the weapons they had, which included a Ruger Mini-14 .223 rifle.
Sometimes you need to be very picky who your friends are...people you ride with, people you're in a small airplane with, people you're going to be around while they're handling weapons. Being too trusting can be the last mistake you make. You've got to take a few risks in life, but you minimize them whenever you can. Sometimes that means staying alert and being ready to take action, even if it's something you'd rather not have to do.
billy bad ass died by the sword he live by
Yep.. Love to see those bible passages where Jesus said to arm yourself as much as possible.
Even He knew that this stupid cycle never ends. Best thing is to don't even touch it - swords, guns, etc...
montegobay are you going to write a book braging about being remarkably stupid?
Best not to touch a word processor when you are wuite ignorant of subject matter.
you are a duece !do you have any idea how many american servicemen he saved by doing his job ,one you could not do much less understand
Did you deliberately misspell quite, grouch-o jeffy? Or maybe it isn't your spelling, it is you don't comprehend montegobay's religious beliefs?
str8jkt82....seems doesn't comprehend either.
explain to me what i do not understand?that kyle killed lots of bad guys that would have killed our servicemen?pray tell what am i missing?
Ok now you can't have it both ways, just about every vet that doesn't want to work claims PTSD so many that it's hard to weed out the ones that really have it. Word has gotten out among the vets that it does pay to have a little mental illness. Then they can sit around the VFW's and Legion's drinking beer all day. But when they want to go get a gun they are healed and demand their rights to carry one, if you are so mentally ill you cannot work then you are too mentally ill to have a gun. No one knows when they will go off so better safe than sorry if you have PTSD no gun.
Walk a mile in their shoes, you don't know jack about what these guys experienced. STFU
wow, if we could only apply that logic to the legions of leeches that voted for obama and their "right" to the fruits of everyone else's labor
What kind of a sick person are you, to make up lies about Obama like this. As busy as he is, he cares a lot more about vets than idiots like you.
Tim, Some of those "leeches" are the vets who come home emotionally damaged by the things they have seen and done. Some of those "leeches" are the vets from Viet Nam, Korea, and WWII who are living out their final days in veteran's hospitals. Some of those "leeches" are people who served in one war or another, then came home and worked their entire lives, contributing from their paychecks into social security and medicare and now believe that their contributions and their service entitle them to a decent retirement with decent medical care.
You are just a hater. You are someone who thinks that anyone who gets anything from the government is somehow stealing from you, when in fact, those people have often paid far more than you ever will in both taxes and their service to this country.
Are you a leach? While people like Kyle and his friends were serving their country, what were you doing? When people were fighting and dying in Viet Nam, were you living in Canada? When the life expectancy of a tail gunner in WWII was about six weeks, what were you contributing to this country, to its infrastructure, to the growth of industry and the production of food? What have you ever done that benefits this country or its citizens? Or have you spent your whole life just grabbing whatever you could get your hands on while you bitched about everyone else?
dont need to walk an inch to know that mental illness means NO GUNS!! Don't care how ill happened, just know no guns for the mentally ill. even if they are nice and were trained really well!!!
And TIM 1496116, who voted the bankers and ins co s the rights the the trillions they got from the common worker? Romney? oh yeah the other white meat... the senate.
underemployed:
while he was serving I was...wait for it........in Iraq......serving.
Swing and a miss big shot!
However, I'll admit a blanket statement like calling everyone who voted for Obama a "leech" is unfair. I'm referring to the people who have no intention of ever giving back, who just milk the government (us, the taxpayers) for everything it's worth because they're "entitled."
Voting for him obviously doesn't automatically make someone a leech; but the leeches (yes, they exist, whether it's politically correct to say so or not) sure do love him.
gramgigi how about you pick up a rifle and defend your country before you talk about any vet, or just shut up and say thank you for the freedom we provide to sit here and blog.
You are an ignorant bitch that knows nothing. I served two tours over seas and had ptsd and know many others who suffered the same. And hey go figure most of us own guns and non of us has ever killed anybody in the civillian world. Oh hey and guess what else we all dont just sit around and drink beer you ass, we all have jobs to support are familiee. The government doesnt give us enough money to sit around and do nothing. So you are welcome for your right to be an @!$%# and spit that stupid @!$%# out of your mouth. Go serve and then come back and say something that makes sense you piece of @!$%#.
gramgigi,
Where do you and people of your ilk get the idea that vets recieving disability compensation are faking it and need to be "weeded out"? By the time someone applies for PTSD compensation they've most likely been in counseling for a long time and have been properly diagnosed by a professional. I don't see how one fakes PTSD. Other veterans won't let them get away with it- if you haven't noticed, they tend to really despise fakes and those who would make phony claims about their service. They have no qualms about reporting such fakers and putting out the word on them. While one may slip through the cracks here and there, a faker has to run a gauntlet of counselors and psychiatrists who can view his medical and military records and places of service and everything else. They may even be asked to provide the names of fellow vets for verification of incident(s). I know this because I've been through it- years of counseling, medications and so on. All diagnosed me with PTSD and I was urged to apply for compensation. It still took me several years before I actually did apply. So, having gone through all of that, you might see why I take issue with your blase attitude towards the issue and those who apply for compensation. Far more people deserve it than apply for it because they don't wish to be labeled or limited by the ignorant. They already have enough problems without having to deal with people who, in comparison, haven't done even half of what they've done and don't know the subjects that they're spouting off about. People like you only add to their suffering and to the number of the needy who don't get the help they need. In the end, why weren't you screaming bloody murder and protesting when the government wanted to send these people in harm's way? YOU failed THEM and are now pissing and moaning because you have to pay the cost for your own inaction.
I find the tone of some comments here to be very offensive...veterans are NO MORE likely to shoot someone than these idiot kids walking around with their pants on the ground! I'm sorry for Kyle's family, and that of his friend. The fact that a disturbed veteran did the shooting is unfortunate, and I hope it doesnt stigmatize the guys coming back who need jobs, since 99.99% of them are no more likely to commit murder than anyone else!
Can we please stop bringing troubled people to gun ranges?
All of you who would try to turn this into some sort of political statement should be ashamed of yourselves. My thoughts are focused solely on the tragic loss of a true American hero, a brave warrior who triumphed over so much horror, who stood strong and courageous in the face of death, only to be gunned down in a senseless act of violence. :(
My thoughts are focused on the stupidity of taking someone with known mental health issues to a gun range.
Just can't figure that one out.
sam, If you read the article, it says that taking vets with PTSD to a gun range can actually be beneficial to them and give them a better handle on their anxiety and stress. I don't know if that's true or not, but I'm willing to entertain the idea. Keep an open mind.
Let's see, PTSD, flashbacks, loss of touch with reality and being at a gun range with a loaded gun in your hands.
Nope, still don't see the sense in that.
Shooting at a gun range. Solution: close all the gun ranges. Now, why didn't we think of that earlier? Shooting at a school: close all the schools. Problem solved.
But, but, where were all the good guys with guns at said gun range? Cause everyone having a loaded gun is supposed to stop these kinds of things I thought...
He waited until everyone else was out of ammo.
Ban handguns.
This article consists of one doctor being asked if there should be concern regarding veterans with PTSD shooting at firing ranges, and his clear response is No.
Therefore, there is absolutely no point in this article having been written and published, other than to waste the readers' time.
Give it a rest people. RIP Chris and Chad.
The irony of it all...
RIP. Guns just attracts every crazy under the sun...people who seek power and domination.
Yes, there are sane people, but how can you tell? What? Bring a gun to protect yourself? That worked here, didn't it? The crazy guy protected himself.
montegobay It seems that wordprocessors attract many 'crazy' people--sunshine or not.
We'd better ban wordprocessors right away, then all of the 'crazy' people will be magically cured, due to the lack of wordprocessors.
Chris Kyle was a modern day hero. He served his country with distinction and dedication. Yes, he killed---To save lives, just like Sgt York did in World War 1. He took up the cause of mentoring other veterns with service connected mental illnesses. Only those who have served at the tip of the spear are qualified to offer opinions here.
You don't have to be a veteran to question the logic in taking someone with mental problems to a gun range.
I must agree with Mr. Croft. There had to be something in the situation or the relationship between this poor fellow and Kyle that at this point is unknown. This is a highly unlikely happening without serious motivating causes.
Could not agree more. There is something about this that does not add up!
Yeah, let's ban shooting ranges.
Yup. Let's ban stupid people.
And you're the first!! Congratulations!
Nobody in the media gives a crap about the death of this former SEAL, unless they can exploit it for their anti-2nd Amendment agenda.
Some therapy.
My Army friend and I were just discussing how Obama is going to stick it to the combat veteran when he forces "mental health" restrictions into existence... not criminal actions mind you... mental health... not violent crime mind you... mental health. Tom, Dick, and Mary psychologist can ban a military veteran from owning a firearm without constitutionally protected "Due Process Under the Law". These Combat Veterans will be punished for followed the lawful order of the Commander in Chief of all Military Forces.
All authority to give all orders is delegated by the highest ranking member of the military… President Obama. He has said "Yes" to sacrificing American lives overseas for 4 more years after he took office… even though he had complete discretionary authority to cease operations and bring everyone home.
Don't argue destabilization here, the region has never stabilized and has been unstable and ruled by Sheiks for thousands of years. Our government pays them for the appearance of stability in the city-centers, but the rural areas are just as wild and inhospitable as before we got there.
This said, leave the Seal alone. He obeyed the orders of his President and would have been dishonorably discharged, jailed, or executed for treason had he not answered the President's call. In the face of death he demonstrate more honor, courage, and integrity just to wake and complete the mission than any basher on this thread.
He came home and tried to help his former brothers who got hurt because their supreme commander wouldn't pull the plug on operations. This man died while trying to save his brother. Just as he saved his brothers while in combat, it is what he knew how to do. What he was doing seconds before he died was more honorable than any civilian could realize.
You voted for Bush twice......didn't you?
Sam,
Please don't display your foolishness by asking me to reveal the details of my Constitutionally-protected secret ballot.
Hey Bobby, did you vote for W in 2000 and 2004?
Bush: 2008 and 2012.... kind of a secret fan.
Fortunately though, I'm a registered Democrat, so they let me have a "do over" and I was able vote again for Obama! :)
sad
Bobby Live, we need to ban you from "breathing"
Sane people need guns to protect us from our government going nuts and other mundane defense needs.
People with PTSD or other MENTAL ILLNESS DO NOT belong having weapons.
Sorry Vets , I love you and respect the job , but if you have PTSD or other issues that weigh heavy, then a gun is a poor choice of pastimes and should be withheld from you.
If you are of sound mind. we are safe with you having a gun,(whoever you are) and we appreciate the help if the need arrises..
That goes for mentally disturbed juveniles, young adults, autism, and most other mental disorders. (maybe not epilepsy)
If you have deep seated social issues, no gun for you.
I'm a Baby Boomer. Do I remember correctly that my WW 2 father and uncles could not wait to shed their uniform and come home to their family. And their exploits were never spoken of. The same with my friends serving in Viet Nam from the 70s?
There are buildings called "libraries" with shelves FULL of thousands of books written by, and about, war and vets from WW2. And WW1. And virtually every other war. Ever watch the history channel? Watch movies? Hollywood can't get enough of violence including war stories. The list goes on. Everyone deals with their time in the military in a different way. As far as Nam goes, many vets kept quiet because of the treatment they received when they came home. What many tend to forget is that most Nam era vets were drafted, not even volunteers. What a shame, men and women just doing their duty.
This event is a tragedy. None of us know the full details so all commenting is pure conjecture and opinion. I see a media pushing an agenda. I was glad to get out and back to civilian life but there are bonds and experiences most will never understand. The agenda should be dropped long enough to allow the truth to be sorted out and for friends and families to grieve.
violence and humans go together like ham and sandwich.