Boy Scouts councils to national HQ: Don't make hasty decision on gays

A coalition of Boy Scouts councils representing some 540,000 youth asked the national organization on Monday to hold off on determining whether to end the controversial policy banning gay Scouts and leaders, saying it was concerned about the executives’ fast pace on a decision that can’t be “undone.”

The Boy Scouts of America's announcement last week that it may eliminate the exclusion of gays from membership at the national level, leaving the decision to its local units, has led to some soul-searching and a lot of questions among Scouting families and their chartering organizations. Some families have indicated they may leave if the ban is lifted, but many have welcomed a change they feel was long overdue.

The Scouts' began National Executive Board and Committee meetings on Monday, and a decision on the gay ban is expected Wednesday.

The coalition of 33 Boy Scouts councils representing some 540,000 youth, or 20 percent of the organization’s 2.6 million active Scouts, has “united to express our concern about the pace at which such actions are being taken,” according to a statement posted on the website of the Utah-based Great Salt Lake Council.  “… we request that a final vote on this policy reversal be delayed to allow other stakeholder’s voices to be heard and a more thorough analysis of the impact on local councils.”

The decision comes just seven months after the organization said it was sticking with the policy following a confidential two-year review of the disputed membership guidelines. That review was announced months after Jennifer Tyrrell was dismissed from her post as leader of her son’s Tiger Cubs den because she is a lesbian, and a few months before California teen Ryan Andresen was denied his Eagle award because he is gay.

Both cases made national headlines for several weeks, roiling the private youth organization. Some critics pointed to declining membership numbers as a sign that families were being turned off over the issue.

Tom Pennington / Getty Images

Will Oliver, an Eagle Scout, Greg Bourke, a former Assistant Scoutmaster, Jennifer Tyrrell, a former Cub Scout den mother, and Eric Andresen, a former Scout leader, deliver boxes containing 1.4 million signatures urging the Boy Scouts of America to reverse the organization's ban on gay Scouts on February 4, 2013 in Irving, Texas.

The coalition, though, said: “While we understand the urge to support those councils who feel that the current policies negatively impact their ability to remain viable we also think that equal support and consideration should be given to those councils whose ability to remain viable will be impacted by adopting the new policy.”

It said the proposed policy “flies in direct contradiction” to the results of the two-year review and noted: “Time must be allowed for accurate polling data to be collected from stakeholders at all levels and all areas in an unbiased way. The voices of existing chartered partners and financial contributors must be heard alongside those of our volunteer leaders and the parents who entrust their children to us. This is a decision which cannot be ‘undone.’”

'Gravely distressed': Religion looms large over Boy Scouts decision on gays 

The Great Salt Lake Council also said that it explicitly opposed any changes to the current membership policy without open discussion and deliberation with the various individuals who make up the organization.

When asked for comment about the positions of the coalition and the Great Salt Lake Council, BSA spokesman Deron Smith said in an email: “We recognize, deeply respect and appreciate the sincere beliefs about this issue.”


Advocates on both sides of the issue have stepped up their campaigns ahead of the BSA's final decision: They’ve encouraged their backers to make their voices heard through a phone-in and email deluge, a conservative group, the Family Research Council, said that it and 41 other groups ran a newspaper ad on Monday asking the BSA not to change the policy, and some conservative religious groups have urged their supporters to join in prayer to ask the board not to accept gays.

Tyrrell, of Bridgeport, Ohio, and Ryan Andresen’s father were among a group that delivered petitions to the Boy Scouts' headquarters in Texas on Monday bearing more than one million signatures calling for an end to the policy.

“It’s crucial because they are in the middle of making this potentially historical decision,” Tyrrell, 33, a mother of four children, told NBC News after delivering four boxes filled with the petitions and additional comments to a Boy Scouts' representative. The group had heard the organization has been receiving “a lot of negative feedback” from religious groups and wanted to provide the petitions so the BSA could see that “there are many people that support this and want this.”

“There are 1.4 million Americans that have signed petitions supporting the change in BSA policy,” said Andresen, 52, of Moraga, Calif. “That’s quite a statement. … that’s a lot of people supporting change.”

Tyrrell and other advocates have previously delivered some of the petitions, which Smith said the BSA had accepted, too. “The BSA has received a great deal of feedback from a variety of viewpoints and we appreciate everyone sharing their perspective on this issue,” he wrote.

After years of heartache, gay Scouts and supporters react warily over proposal to lift ban

Andresen’s son, Ryan, 18, is still hoping he will receive Scouting’s highest ranking, the Eagle award, though the journey has done a lot of damage to him emotionally, said Eric Andresen, who resigned as the committee chair of his son’s troop after the problems began. One of the family’s main objectives was to help others, such as boys who may still be hiding in the closet.

“I’m hoping that the board continues to do what’s right and deliberate this week and make the decision that we hope they’re going to make,” he said. “If they don’t, we’ll be back.”

Related stories: 

If you are a current or former member of the Boy Scouts and would like to share your thoughts on how your troop, pack or council is handling the possibility of a change in the membership policy, you can email the reporter at miranda.leitsinger@msnbc.com. We may use some comments for a follow-up story, so please specify if your remarks can be used and provide your name, hometown, age, Boy Scout affiliation and a phone number.

 

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Why would anyone want to join a group that doesn't want you ? What a bunch of morons

  • 2 votes
Reply#28 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 8:33 PM EST

The 1.4 million should start their own club. The new club could tolerate the BSOA and the BSOA could tolerate them. Would that be so hard?? If you don't like the rules, vote with your feet. This country is a lot bigger than most realize. We actually have room for more than one club, we might even have room for three!

  • 2 votes
Reply#29 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 8:38 PM EST

Well said, Vincent.

    #29.1 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 10:07 PM EST

    Vincent yes, some all already doing so. However, BSA is a big organization with resources that would be hard to duplicate. Yes, it has some problems (don't they all?). Many of us are working from within the organization to push for a change. We think we are being heard, BSA will change or slip into irrelevancy.

      #29.2 - Tue Feb 5, 2013 12:14 AM EST
      Reply

      The Father doesn't hate his gay children, but he does find their behavior repulsive. Sin isn't being bad. Sin is a bad being.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#30 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 8:38 PM EST

      Typical republiclowns, wanting the rest of us to follow the rules made up in a fairy tale.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#31 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 8:39 PM EST

      If someone wanted to make a policy integrating the Boy Scouts with the Girl Scouts and allowing Boy Scouts to share rooms and other facilities on campouts with girl scouts and brownies, no one would question that that would be a bad idea. So why should gay scouts be afforded the same privilege? Given the BSA's history with child molestors, you would think they would be the last ones to want to do this.

      The argument is always that most gays aren't pedophiles. This is true, but neither are most straight males, and yet you wouldn't let straight males into girls' tents and locker rooms, whether they are pedophiles or not.

      If gays want their sexual attractions to be respected in the same way as straight attractions, then why aren't they willing to have their attractions treated the same when it comes to being around those who they might be attracted too?

      • 1 vote
      Reply#32 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 8:39 PM EST

      I am so confused? Is boy scouts "...a program for young people that builds character, trains them in the responsibilities of participating citizenship, and develops personal fitness." Where in there does it say it trains young men to have sex? Why would a boy's sexual orientation be a factor in building character or training them to be responsible citizen and develops personal fitness?

      You people have definitely opened my eyes about scouts? Here I thought BS were about teaching leadership, character, and proper citizenship, when aparently scouting is about teaching young boys about sex. So, what badges do scouts really get? Size, hardness, ability to make a woman climax? Do they just pass out playboy at the scouts meetings and tell the boys to "earn" their badges? What a sleazy perverted organization that would make sex the main factor in educating our young men.

        #32.1 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 8:59 PM EST

        @Blue Oh I see, so you would be perfectly fine with letting your 12 year old daughter stay in a tent and share a locker room with a 16 year old boy, as long as they weren't doing any explicit activities?

        • 1 vote
        #32.2 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:06 PM EST

        Yes. In fact we often took my daughter's friends boys and girls on our family camping trips. My daughter's were NOT sexually assaulted. I fear you have trouble controlling your "urges" and think EVERYTHING is about sex. Maybe the Scouts should look for people like YOU to keep out, you might be one of those "straight" guys who sexually assault the children you've been entrusted with. How many "straight" scout leaders have assaulted their troops over the years? When people are so sexually obsessed as you are and cant control themselves, it is the children who are in danger! I pray you don't have children because you are dangerous to them and possibly any of their friends.

          #32.3 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 10:47 PM EST

          1. Did they share a tent?

          2. Why should you have to be sexually assaulted to be bothered by it? Just because you aren't bothered by it doesn't mean other girls aren't. Don't girls have a right to be uncomfortable with boys sharing the areas where they dress, undress, and shower? Or should they be perfectly fine with it as long as they aren't being sexually assaulted?

          3. How does being concerned with the privacy of others show that I can't control my own sexual desires and might assault someone? Even if I won't assault someone, that doesn't give me the right to go into the girls' locker room and watch them shower. Or is it alright if I do that, as long as I don't sexually assault them?

          • 1 vote
          #32.4 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 11:20 PM EST
          Reply

          My advice to the Boy Scouts is to continue the ban. Abnormal feminine men are not a goog example for boys to grow up with. Of course Obama stuck his nose in where it don't belong, I say ignore him. Keep the ban. This would just be another step forward in the liberal agenda to feminize as many men in the United States as they can. Feminine men are generally liberals.

          I am not a homophobe. I do not hate gays and I do think they should have some
          rights. Be gay, be a couple, call it marriage if you like. I don't care. But
          I will not have anything to do with your wedding. I am also against things like
          gay adoption.

          To those who consider themselves to be both gay and Christian, and also to
          those who support gay rights in the church, I have this to say. You know very
          well that God uses the word "detestible" to describe homosexuality. I also have
          this to say, "I am not your enemy." Your enemy is the friend who tells you ,"Be
          proud that you are gay." He wants you to be proud of something shameful and
          sinful. He will take you down the wide road with him. You will laugh all along
          the way. When you get to the edge of the cliff at the end of the road, like
          lemmings you will all jump into the black abyss.

          Homosexual Christian, repentance is admitting you are wrong, giving a sincere
          apology and making an effort to change yourself. If you do not admit that being
          gay is wrong then how can you repent of it. If you tell people to be proud that
          you are gay, how can they repent of it. If you do this you are calling God a
          liar just like the devil did and does.

          I have this to say about homosexual weddings in the church. A Christian
          marriage is holy and it is between a man and a woman. A Gay wedding is unholy
          and an abomination if done in the church. Churches that support gay marriage in
          the church are an abomination and people should flee from them. Gay priests are
          an abomination. I would imagine gay priests that get married in a gay wedding
          would make God want to vomit and this is going on.

          Gay men and gay supporters in the church, repent. Are you a lemming or do you
          admit it when you are wrong? Jesus wants sincerity and that takes admitting when
          you are wrong. In the book of Romans, God gives the homosexuals a disease. God
          does not like homosexuality. The Bible also says clearly in the New Testament
          that homosexuals will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Those who tell you to be
          proud that you are gay are your enemy. If you do not admit that what you are
          doing and the activity that you support is wrong, there is no repentance. Didn't
          Jesus say "repent." Which is love? That which supports things that are evil or
          that which supports righteous actions. You decide.

          --------------------------------------------------------------------------

          • 3 votes
          Reply#33 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 8:48 PM EST

          Let's take away the rights of Tea Party members to marry.

          • 1 vote
          Reply#34 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 8:49 PM EST

          While you're at it ban people who drive red Toyotas from shopping at Trader Joe's!!!

          There, now we both got a rant out there that has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the topic at hand.

          • 1 vote
          #34.1 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:33 PM EST
          Reply

          It frightens me that a boy's sexual orientation would matter? What are they doing at those scout meetings that SEX would EVER be a factor? Is there a badge for losing your virginity? Is there a badge for successful masturbation?What about a badge for sexual conquests? Deflower 10 virgins and you get your Eagle Scout badge? What is it that a boy's sexual orientation would EVER be an issue?

          As a former girl scout I can't remember one thing that my sexual orientation would have made any difference.

          A boy scout salute has taken on a whole new meaning. Maybe that is why a large percentage of men in jail for rape were boy scouts at one time in their life.

            Reply#35 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 8:51 PM EST

            You said you were a girl scout. I am a male. Would my sexual orientation matter if I wanted to go on a campout and share a tent or locker room with girl scouts? Or does it only matter if we are doing explicit activities?

            • 2 votes
            #35.1 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 8:54 PM EST

            Maybe that is why a large percentage of men in jail for rape were boy scouts at one time in their life.

            I hope you realize that just pulling a random lie out of thin air doesn't change anything, but good to see you've got an active imagination. How about a random fact that is true? Most gang members identify themselves with the Democratic party. It has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, just FYI.

            • 2 votes
            #35.2 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:04 PM EST

            No, as a matter of fact you being a man would NOT bother me unless you were sneaking into my tent to rape me. I guess I think that people, especially adults, have learned to control their sexual drives and can control themselves when it is not appropriate. Are you telling me that if you went on a girl scouts camp out and had to share a tent with young girls that you could NOT control yourself and you would rape the girls because you can't control yourself? What about sleep overs that your daughter's have are you telling me that you cant control yourself have to have sex with any vagina you come in contact with? Because you should get help if you don't think you can control your sexual urges!!!!!! Most adults have control over "their" domain, if you do not your ARE a threat to society!!

              #35.3 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:05 PM EST

              @Blue So you think girls should be okay with boys sharing a locker room with them as long as the boys aren't trying to rape them?

              • 2 votes
              #35.4 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:09 PM EST
              Reply

              How about good parental education, learning that if you are different than others then you should understand that you are and accept it and accept what life offers you. I don't have to take your @#$%.

              If you are gay or lesbian, just create your own Scout Club. Boys who want to be girls and girls who want to be boys can have it and be perfectly happy and we would too!

              What do you say?

              • 2 votes
              Reply#36 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 8:53 PM EST

              Typical bible thumpers.

              Instructing society at large how to live according to thier fictional character.

              On a side note-

              I was never a Cub Scout,

              but I did eat a Brownie once.

              • 1 vote
              Reply#37 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 8:56 PM EST

              Let's see now, if you read what's happening on the net today you'll find the Democrats pulling out all stops to bully the BSA into accepting homos, they also want to pick apart the Constitution because it's just an old relic, they came out in vociferous support of Iran ....................... Quite the day for Democrats!

              • 1 vote
              Reply#38 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 8:57 PM EST

              As long as you can keep the child rapists and perverts out the kids should all be welcome.

              But you have to consider if you let them in you may be attracting the same type sicko's as the catholic clergy, and we all know what a pedophiles mecca that turned out to be.

                Reply#39 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:00 PM EST

                I wrote the following letter to the Chief Scout Executive. I am sharing it with all of you so that you understand the many reasons why people like me oppose changing the BSA's policy on this important issue. Thank you for allowing me to post this.

                January 31, 2013

                Mr. Wayne Brock

                Chief Scout Executive

                1325 West Walnut Hill Lane

                Irving, TX 75038

                Dear Mr. Brock,

                I am writing to you as an Assistant Scoutmaster, a former Scoutmaster, the father
                of an aspiring Eagle Scout, and a former Scout myself. I am not an Eagle Scout myself, but greatly
                value what I learned in Scouting as a boy. Since September 2007, I have poured thousands of hours and my own funds into Scouting for the benefit of my son and his fellow Scouts. I have helped a number of boys make Eagle, and have taught numerous merit badges to dozens of Scouts within and outside
                the troop to which I belong. At potential risk to my success at work, I have taken many days off to accompany
                our Scouts on long treks at Philmont and Lenhok'sin, and to campouts in places
                ranging from West Virginia and the Shenandoah National Park, to the shores of
                the Sea of Galilee and the Negev Desert in Israel. I have dedicated myself to ensuring that
                Scouts enjoy the Scouting experience that Lord Baden-Powell, Ernest Thompson
                Seton and Daniel Carter Beard designed for our youth with the aim to build
                character and promote citizenship and personal fitness. I view the sincere striving to fulfill the
                Scout Oath and Law as critical to fulfillment of Scouting's highest aims, and
                believe the BSA should lead our society – not reflect every facet of it (good
                and bad) – even if it is to be criticized for its beliefs.

                It is for this reason that I am writing to you to express my sincere displeasure
                with the news that the BSA is considering changing its long-standing policy
                against allowing gay Scouts and leaders – uniformed and not – into Scouting. That policy is based on Scouting's correct assessment, in my and others' views, that the homosexual lifestyle is not
                clean. I will elaborate on my views below, but want to be clear up front: If the BSA bows to any pressure – whether it is coming from the White House, corporate sponsors, or gay rights activists
                – on this issue, I will withdraw from Scouting, and allow my son to withdraw as
                well.
                Scouting will be dead, as far as I am concerned. It is already
                treading a dangerous path by turning the other eye against atheists and agnostics
                who have been and continue to "slip in under the radar" and occupy
                both leadership positions and become Eagle Scouts. This will be the final straw for me. Scouting will lose my financial support and time commitment, and I will seek to support clean and reverent boys who want to
                do Scouting-like activities through other means.

                These are my reasons for appealing to you to maintain Scouting's policy that Scouts
                and their uniformed and non-uniformed leaders adhere to the Oath and Law, which
                include the demands that Scouts strive to be clean and reverent:

                1. Most Scouts I know, and their parents, do not want sexual orientation to be the defining
                aspect of their identity.
                They don't
                want it to be an issue that is discussed on a regular basis, and they believe
                that boys should grow up to be responsible, healthy men, and girls should grow
                up to be responsible, healthy women.
                Gays, in contrast, are making their sexual orientation the center of
                their identity, and are forcing us to focus on the matter when we do not wish
                to highlight it. There is a deep,
                narcissistic craving among these people to be at the center of attention, and
                to have the rest of us (who are the majority, by the way) to accept them for
                who they are without any reservations.
                These people want to be
                acknowledged for their sexual orientation, when most of us don’t want to know
                about it, and don’t particularly make our own sexual orientation the defining
                trait of who we are. I don’t walk around with “heterosexual” written all
                over me, and I don’t particularly want to know what anyone else’s sexual
                proclivities are. In my many years of Scouting, I can’t recall a
                particular session we’ve had with our Scouts where we discussed such a thing. While there are parents in our troop who are
                open to the idea of the gay lifestyle being legitimate, they don't want sexual
                orientation to be discussed in Scouting – period.

                2. The idea that the Scouts are being exclusive
                and mean is dishonest. In fact, it is
                gay activists who are being dishonest in this culture clash.
                Scouts
                are not going out heckling gay people.
                They aren't openly speaking out on the lifestyle. They are merely being selective in who they
                accept as members. In contrast, gay
                activists are going after the Boy Scouts just like they are going after
                mainstream churches, because they seek to break down any potential barrier to
                our forced acceptance of their way of life. While they might come out
                with sympathetic anecdotes of Boy Scouts who felt they could never fully enjoy
                Scouting because they were secretly gay (designed, of course, to evoke sympathy
                from emotional people), they also use strong-arm tactics and threaten boycotts
                on private, corporate sponsors of organizations like the Boy Scouts. They
                don’t advertise that fact, because they don’t want to be seen as hostile in
                their approach, but they have shown time and again that they are willing to go
                to the mat using any tactic necessary to foist their agenda on those of us who
                are neither interested in it, nor agree with it. They have also sued the
                Boy Scouts multiple times, and have lost in all cases – even at the Supreme
                Court – because our Constitution allows organizations to assemble based on
                their own membership requirements. Freedom of association is one of our
                God-given rights as Americans.

                3. Caving on the issue of cleanliness will
                embolden people who are already trying to remove God from Scouting – overtly
                and covertly. It will be according a
                victory to people who have been less than honest in their undertakings.
                In our Oath,
                we pledge on our honor to do our duty to God and our Country, and when we
                recite the Scout Law, we note that a Scout is Reverent. In support of
                their position, so-called gay rights activists are asserting that we are
                somehow open to atheists and agnostics.
                If we are, that is a serious mistake that we are making, and we should
                course-correct immediately. I know I am
                not the only parent and former Scout who believes that no Boy Scout is being
                honest and true to the Oath and Law if he is a practicing atheist or
                agnostic. And no Boy Scout is living a clean, honest living if he is
                living a life which is contrary to the values of the Boy Scouts.

                We have seen many cases
                now wherein gays – youth and adults – have knowingly involved themselves in
                Scouting, only to come out in an effort to challenge the organization.
                This is a deceptive practice. It does not speak well of them or their
                backers. Many costly, wasteful and painful lawsuits have arisen from
                this, and none of them have done anything to advance the cause of gays seeking
                to discredit the Boy Scouts. They have instead torn troops apart, and
                caused many young men and boys to be frustrated that they cannot enjoy Scouting
                without adult political and social agendas getting in the way.

                4. There is no redeeming social good to the gay
                lifestyle that merits it as a model for adult behavior. In fact, it is fraught with risk, and the
                people who engage in it – either by choice or biology – are not desirable role
                models for our boys.
                Human urges that tend to have negative outcomes,
                like alcoholism, addictions to gambling and sex, pedophilia, and arson are
                rightly viewed negatively. In the past, we have called them afflictions,
                realizing that we don’t fully understand why people suffer these things, and
                because we have some sympathy for the afflicted person as a fellow human being.
                While we sympathize with afflicted people, we also recognize as a society that
                afflictions often manifest themselves in ways that are dangerous to both the
                afflicted person and people around them. The Progressive Movement in
                American history, for instance, fought hard against alcoholism and gambling
                because alcoholism was killing men and leaving their households without
                breadwinners, and gambling because it was leaving the gamblers and their
                families destitute. We don’t know why some people become alcoholic and
                others don’t, but we are rightfully concerned about alcoholism, counsel against
                the ways in which one becomes an alcoholic, and we often times prevent
                alcoholics from holding security clearances and working in certain
                professions. A history of gambling or sexual promiscuity can also prevent
                someone from receiving a security clearance in our country. This is based
                on the reasonable recognition that people who live with these afflictions are
                not entirely trustworthy or reliable. They may have the best intentions,
                but their urgings make them vulnerable and compromise their capabilities.
                Not surprisingly, family members often suffer when they have to depend on these
                people, because they do not show good judgment, and they often prove to be
                unreliable.

                As a Christian and a
                fellow human, I would contend that we should not condemn such afflicted
                people. I see reason and logic, however, in ensuring that we don’t go out
                of our way to entrust these kinds of people with things ranging from state
                secrets to the raising of our children. Personally, I don’t want my child
                to associate with alcoholics, gamblers and sex-addicts; I don’t see any
                redeeming value to it, and while I can’t prevent it one hundred percent, if I
                am allowed to try to stop it, I will. Instead, I choose to have my child
                associate with people who I believe live cleanly and reverently. People
                who bow to God, who seek to serve God and their country, and who seek to be
                good citizens who give as much as they receive, if not more. While I don't have much of a say over who my
                son spends time with at public school, I do have some control over who he
                associates with in Scouting. So far, Boy
                Scouts has stood for the things I agree with over the last 100-plus years. When the rest of our society was divided by
                race, for instance, the Boy Scouts was one of the few organizations that
                bridged the racial gap. It promotes brotherly love, good citizenship,
                leadership, and living cleanly and responsibly. It sets a high standard that
                many choose not to aspire to.

                We do not know why
                anyone is gay. There is no definitive study that says with 100 percent
                certainty that people are born gay. I believe that people may be born who
                could become gay or stay straight, and that something happens to them along the
                way that determines their orientation. It could be the household they
                grow up in, the early sexual experiences they have, abuse, or
                molestation. The fact is, we simply don’t know. I’m not interested
                in persecuting gay people, and I’m also not interested in learning more about
                their so-called lifestyle than I already know, just as I am not particularly
                interested in knowing about anyone’s sexual preferences. For most
                Americans, these are deeply personal things that are not to be paraded around
                in front of people. Most Americans do not identify themselves mainly by
                their sexuality. If asked to do so, they are usually offended. In
                fact, most Americans are not seeking attention like gay people seem to be doing
                right now. They are instead going about their daily lives, working hard
                to fulfill their duties at the workplace, and supporting their families at
                home. Most Americans daily choose to associate with people like
                themselves. It is behind the adage, “Birds of a feather flock
                together.” They understandably and almost instinctively resist being
                forced to socialize with people who they see as different. This is
                normal. It is human. While Christians like me strive to overcome
                this instinct, we also recognize that it is not necessarily cruel or motivated
                by meanness. In many cases, it reflects our desire to avoid being caught
                up in the kinds of things that lead to trouble. At some point in my life,
                I stopped hanging around with other people who drank heavily, because I
                recognized that it did not bring out good things in me. Most people would
                agree that that was a wise decision, and would commend it and encourage others
                to follow suit. Similarly, we often encourage others to join athletic
                clubs, because we all end up benefitting by being involved collectively in
                healthy, athletic pursuits. So, as a society, we regularly urge people to
                do some things, and discourage other things.
                I know I am not alone in this view: I do not wish to have my son, or anyone
                else's sons, be actively mentored by gay men or older gay boys in the kinds of
                settings that Scouting affords. In
                saying this, I'm not saying that their "gayness" will rub off on my
                son. I am merely stating that I do not
                believe that they are suitable role models for boys. It is consistent with the view that I do not
                wish my son (or I, for that matter) to voluntarily associate with people who do
                things I don't approve of.

                5. The gay lifestyle – especially among men – is
                obviously unclean, and that is based on reams of historical documentation that
                range from studies conducted in prison, to medical records, surveys of gay bars,
                bathhouses and other such establishments in our cities.
                It tends
                to be promiscuous, and among men, it involves certain sexual acts that are physically
                destructive to the human body, and potentially transmit disease. While
                gay activists point to homosexual behavior among male animals as proof that it
                is "normal," we know that animals practice this kind of behavior to show
                dominance over rivals, not out of desire or an instinct to procreate. The homosexual sex act is neither loving nor
                procreative. (I realize that there are heterosexuals that practice these
                acts as well, but I would contend that they are not good role models for a
                healthy lifestyle, and I wouldn't want them working with my son, either.) Our country is now spending billions of
                taxpayer dollars on mitigating for the spread of HIV and AIDS, and while these destructive
                diseases are not transmitted solely by homosexuals, they undeniably spread
                rapidly through the homosexual population, and that population is more at risk
                to these diseases than any other. In
                this way, we are already dedicating a huge chunk of our resources to a very
                small group of people in the U.S. who, in acting out on their urges and
                impulses, were behaving irresponsibly.
                While, as a Christian, I can accept that burden, I do not see the need
                for us to sacrifice institutions like the Boy Scouts so that gay people can
                feel fully accepted on their terms by
                those of us who are not gay. As a
                society, we have already paid a huge cost for tolerating what we have. How much more must we yield to people who
                many would argue live a culture of death?

                6. Ceding this matter of principle to the gay
                community will dishearten people trying to be faithful to their beliefs. It will not mollify gay activists – who will
                ratchet up their demands for more concessions – and it will not change how people
                who do not agree with the gay lifestyle view it.
                If gay
                American citizens insist that they be recognized and treated like everyone
                else, that is their right to do that. But they should know that there
                will always be people who won’t see them that way. If they put a muzzle
                on such people through political correctness, it won’t change those people’s
                minds. Thus, what they want will never be achieved, because you cannot
                force people to believe in something that they choose not to believe in.
                Atheists have proven this, and people like me who are willing to speak their mind
                in defense of their faith will prove this as well. It is also a lie and a
                fallacy to assert that people who do not accept homosexuality are intolerant
                bigots. I am not a bigot, and I tolerate much more than most people do in
                the course of my work and daily living. The fact is, we as a society make
                judgments about things – thereby tolerating or not tolerating them – all the
                time. It is normal in an ordered society. We tend to tolerate and
                promote things that we see as for the common good, including healthy marriage,
                which, when done properly, leads to procreation and the continuation of our
                society. Conversely, we tend not to promote ways of life that lead to
                dead ends, and the destruction of self and others. We see them as
                selfish, short-sighted and reckless. For good or bad, we still tolerate
                such negative behavior in our society, even if it is hard to see the social
                good that comes from it. This is mainly because we, as free people,
                choose to avoid telling others to stop things that we object to, even when we
                probably should. We have become a conflict-avoiding people, and have
                deluded ourselves into believe that tolerating everything is both possible and
                good. I am sure that, whether or not the BSA changes its policies with
                respect to how it views homosexuality, gays will continue to live in our
                society. There is growing acceptance – for good or bad – of their
                lifestyle. There are few, if any, people
                anymore who outright attack gays or treat them meanly. Whether or not the
                BSA changes, gayness will go on, just as heterosexual living will continue. Changing our policy will achieve nothing
                good, but will contribute further to our societal degradation.

                7. If gays want to do scouting so much, they can
                form their own Gay Scouts of America, just as the Girl Scouts formed the Girl
                Scouts of America in the wake of the Boy Scouts.
                I am quite sure that millions would agree
                that there is merit to the existence of separate Boy and Girl Scout
                organizations. Gays could have a Gay Scout organization if they choose to
                place their sexual orientation at the center of their identity.

                If I am to accept their
                motives as pure, it would seem that the gays who want to be allowed into
                Scouting want the benefits of being part of a well-established organization.
                There is nothing wrong with that, but if their “welcoming” into the
                organization will be resented because it is forced, they might consider that
                they could do better by forming their own organization. People like new
                and novel things. They might be able to get some of the financial backers
                they have forced to abandon the BSA to back them (e.g., Merck). Perhaps our President will become the Chief
                Scout of their organization? Who knows? In a hundred years’ time,
                they might prove that they are better than the traditional Boy Scouts of
                America. Seriously.

                Sadly, I don’t think that this is what this is about. This is, as I stated earlier, an attempt
                to go after a pillar of traditional American society with an aim to deal it a
                mortal blow. If the BSA caves to their strong-arm tactics, the gay rights
                activists will trumpet their victory with the arrogance that can be expected of
                them, just as they have done in forcing thousands of people out of our
                mainstream church denominations by forcing those denominations to accept gay
                clergy. If the BSA caves to pressure on this issue, we will see an end
                to Boy Scouts. Men like me, and our sons will eventually stop
                participating. We will carry out our adventures with like-minded people –
                as is our God-given, Constitutional right – elsewhere. The gay rights
                activists’ victory will thus be pyrrhic. They will have won the battle,
                but ultimately will lose the war if their aim is to see Scouting fully embrace
                them as they want to be embraced.
                This will be a sad development for
                America, because an organization that has done so much to raise clean,
                civic-minded, patriotic followers and leaders will have been crushed under the
                pressure of a small but vocal movement. We will witness the triumph of
                what political scientists aptly call “the tyranny of the minority,” and one
                more pillar in the values-based foundation of our country – a country founded
                first and foremost for the worship of God – will have been destroyed by
                rebellious, wayward man. I and others like me pray that this will not
                happen, and that good sense and respect for our Constitutional rights will
                prevail, for the good of our nation, so that it may be salt and light to the
                rest of the world and glorify God.

                Yours in Scouting,

                Michael C. Keays

                Falls Church, VA

                • 7 votes
                Reply#40 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:01 PM EST

                You are probably an avid fan of Leviticus and use that as the catch-all against gays (I am not Gay and I am a Christian). So assuming you believe in the book of Leviticus, then you must endorse Incest, Child Molesting, inter-family marriage and everything else the book contains.

                Denying peoples rights is neither patriotic or constitutional. However Hitler, the Muslims and most third-world despots would back up ypur every thought.

                • 2 votes
                #40.1 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:27 PM EST

                A lot of words, signifying an amazing amount of well-thought out ignorance and oft-refuted musings on gay people's lives, and sadly using such bunk filtered through a deeply-flawed religious theology as an argument to deny other American citizen's equal rights.

                So many nicely worded paragraphs of non-sensical, quasi-arguments from someone who has a hard time understanding the difference of secular civil rights for all, from a brittle religious code that excludes many over ancient and foolish prejudices that have no bearing or reality in the modern world.

                I bet Mike is a hoot a home.

                Michael, I wish you and your son well in another troop.

                • 1 vote
                #40.2 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:35 PM EST

                Great letter.

                The people in scouts have always been more accepting of kids who were outside the norm, gays inculded, than the typical kids at school.

                I think the attempted change in official policy shows a lack of reverence for the ideals of the people who built the Boy Scouts.

                • 1 vote
                #40.3 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:36 PM EST

                I'm not an avid fan of Leviticus. I am a believer that the Bible in its totality is a source of wisdom and truth. It tells stories of people living unhealthy, ungodly loves, and suffering in this fallen world as a result of it, and it tells stories of godly people striving to live faithful lives obedient to God, and enjoying God's blessings, while being persecuted by people who hate, mock, or simply don't understand God. The metamessage of God's revelations to us is that He is for life. We are meant to live for Him, to worship Him, and help others to come to Him. There are many lifestyles that don't do this. They run in the opposite direction. Maybe people choose them, and maybe they don't. I have sympathy for people who don't choose them, but are afflicted. I don't have much sympathy for people who choose to oppose God. But bringing it back to Boy Scouts: Nobody in the Boy Scouts is persecuting gay people. So why don't gays just leave the Boy Scouts alone? If gays want to do scouting, they can form their own organization? The truth is that they aren't being honest. This isn't about trying to get the Boy Scouts to open up. It's about destroying the Boy Scouts because it doesn't accept the gay lifestyle as clean -- morally or physically. (Let's face it, sodomy is unclean, and you know it.)

                • 2 votes
                #40.4 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:46 PM EST

                Thank you, Ted. And I agree with you. Most Boy Scouts I know live up to the Law and are friendly and helpful to others. Scouting brings out the best in them.

                • 2 votes
                #40.5 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:49 PM EST

                Michael...let's not open this forum to us questioning you on your supposed 'unclean' sex life. I'm struck by how much your letter obsesses on sex, and the supposed sexual practices that you perceive gay people have.

                What is the cause of this? It seems to be a weird correlation of the supposedly deeply religious, since most people do not focus that much on sex when their lives are more fulfilling. I cannot imagine why you would possess this odd fascination.

                I live and work with many people and friends, both gay and straight, attractive to me, and not so with others, of many religious and ethnic backgrounds, and thoughts of the hows and whys of their sex lives does not even cross my mind.

                It's a fascinating correlation, especially because the fears you have of gay people are irrational and amusing, if not a bit disturbing as well.

                Again. Best of luck to you and your son in your new troop. Maybe tolerance and inclusion will be stressed as well as tying knots, wilderness training, athletics and good old fashioned values, of which sex lives ARE NOT A PART, regardless of who you are.

                • 1 vote
                #40.6 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 10:19 PM EST

                Excellent points, Michael. How do I print a copy?

                  #40.7 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 11:32 PM EST

                  Great letter Mr. Keays. I hope that you sent a copy to everybody on the National Council.

                    #40.8 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 11:53 PM EST
                    Reply

                    I don,t beleive I heard Morality and that=The Quality of being morally right or moral behavior come out in the Great Obama,s talk about Scouting. Let the gay people learn about some of these things instead of other people judgeing them and say O your gay thats whats wrong with you I beleive their is to much labeling of young people that they maybe gay or not.I have two friends that are much older gay guys and there the people that tell me these things and alot makes good sence.I,m not blind to alot of this Ive seen a program about some gay people and they showed that 87% gay people are most the time over weight people that can,t find anyone but someone like their self and thats good but sad in away I don,t mean to offend anyone but YOU OFFEND ME

                    • 1 vote
                    Reply#41 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:01 PM EST

                    ATTENTION PLEASE:

                    I can say this because I used to be a cub scout, and am now married for 22 years to a woman with children: You folks currently running the Boy Scouts need to have your religious wackos pull their collective heads out of their backwoods asses. The President of the United States of America has given you a directive - just as another US president gave the southerners a directive - they also did not want to follow it, quoted the bible to validate their position. Remember the "can't learn from history" quote? Probably not, since so many hard-line, 'family first' types can't see past their own noses. If people refuse to be fair then I say: "BOYCOTT THE BOY SCOUTS!"

                    • 1 vote
                    Reply#42 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:02 PM EST

                    The all mighty King Barry has given a directive - enough said!

                    I agree the gays should boycott the Boy Scouts.

                    • 2 votes
                    #42.1 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:13 PM EST

                    Just because the IIC (Idiot in Chief) is playing politics with this issue is no reason for rational, sane and intellectual people to buy into his partisan babble. Obama has always hit me as gay - with this statement has he come out?

                    • 1 vote
                    #42.2 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:23 PM EST
                    Reply

                    Why don't the gays join the girl scouts where they would feel more at home.

                    • 2 votes
                    Reply#43 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:03 PM EST

                    Instead of trying to advance open infiltration into the Boy Scouts of America why not just establish a ‘gay scouts of america’? Why the hell would a bunch of gay folks want to scout with a bunch of strait folks
                    anyway? This is truly baffling!

                    • 4 votes
                    #43.1 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:16 PM EST
                    Reply

                    Stop trying to equate homosexuality with blacks and the struggles of blacks, this hurts your cause
                    much more than it could ever help it!!!

                      Reply#44 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:03 PM EST

                      All civil rights struggles have many things in common. Blacks still suffer discrimination for their skin color, and gays suffer because of who they are attracted to,......and BOTH are not things that can be chosen.

                      Get over your anger on this. A lot of gay people have died solely because someone hated them because they were gay, or black, or latino, or jewish, or middle eastern, or female, or handicapped, or perceived as a witch. Skin color may be more obvious, but prejudice born of differences, no matter what they are, is still hate.

                      • 1 vote
                      #44.1 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:18 PM EST

                      Stop trying to equate homosexuality with blacks and the struggles of blacks, this hurts your cause
                      much more than it could ever help it!!!

                      • 2 votes
                      #44.2 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:30 PM EST

                      Roger, aren't you supposed to be in bed now at the nursing home? Cutting and pasting responses is what children and old people do.

                        #44.3 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:42 PM EST

                        Stop trying to equate homosexuality with blacks and the struggles of blacks, this hurts your cause
                        much more than it could ever help it!!!

                          #44.4 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:46 PM EST
                          Reply

                          ....BSA is entitltled to not have gay scouts leaders....even the Supreme Court agrees.........

                          The highest court in American agreed that BSA is a private organization and they can control membership...what's wrong with that. So what's the argument from the gay community??

                          What the gay community should do is start their own organization with gay scouts, lesbian and gay leaders and then everyone is happy and be with the people they choice to associate with.

                          And the real bottom line is that BSA is built on tradtional values...no intelligent parent wants their 11-17 year old son camping overnight with known gay leaders....you're just inviting trouble along with major litigation if a Penn State type issue occurs.

                          • 4 votes
                          Reply#45 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:03 PM EST

                          My God this liberal rag is hideous. Not one day have they gone without a gay story? Are your freaks in the 8th grade? Gays are queer is that not simple enough? What your trying to do is make Queer into Normal. And with brainwashing you can do it yeah liberals yeah. Keep it up look at Obama trillions and trillions of debt trillions to bankers who buy stock you idiots think he loves little people. My God America is toasted stupid.

                            Reply#46 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:04 PM EST

                            Keep the ban. Keep the ban. Keep the ban.

                            I am not a homophobe. I do not hate gays and I do think they should have some
                            rights. Be gay, be a couple, call it marriage if you like. I don't care. But
                            I will not have anything to do with your wedding. I am also against things like
                            gay adoption.

                            To those who consider themselves to be both gay and Christian, and also to
                            those who support gay rights in the church, I have this to say. You know very
                            well that God uses the word "detestible" to describe homosexuality. I also have
                            this to say, "I am not your enemy." Your enemy is the friend who tells you ,"Be
                            proud that you are gay." He wants you to be proud of something shameful and
                            sinful. He will take you down the wide road with him. You will laugh all along
                            the way. When you get to the edge of the cliff at the end of the road, like
                            lemmings you will all jump into the black abyss.

                            Homosexual Christian, repentance is admitting you are wrong, giving a sincere
                            apology and making an effort to change yourself. If you do not admit that being
                            gay is wrong then how can you repent of it. If you tell people to be proud that
                            you are gay, how can they repent of it. If you do this you are calling God a
                            liar just like the devil did and does.

                            I have this to say about homosexual weddings in the church. A Christian
                            marriage is holy and it is between a man and a woman. A Gay wedding is unholy
                            and an abomination if done in the church. Churches that support gay marriage in
                            the church are an abomination and people should flee from them. Gay priests are
                            an abomination. I would imagine gay priests that get married in a gay wedding
                            would make God want to vomit and this is going on.

                            Gay men and gay supporters in the church, repent. Are you a lemming or do you
                            admit it when you are wrong? Jesus wants sincerity and that takes admitting when
                            you are wrong. In the book of Romans, God gives the homosexuals a disease. God
                            does not like homosexuality. The Bible also says clearly in the New Testament
                            that homosexuals will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Those who tell you to be
                            proud that you are gay are your enemy. If you do not admit that what you are
                            doing and the activity that you support is wrong, there is no repentance. Didn't
                            Jesus say "repent." Which is love? That which supports things that are evil or
                            that which supports righteous actions. You decide.

                            --------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            • 3 votes
                            Reply#47 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:04 PM EST

                            I hope all of you realize the only decision that can't be undone is one that allows them. It will also mean Hundreds of Thousands of people pulling their children out of BSA. This has nothing to do with being homophobic as some of you claim. This has to do with what you subject your kids to when you are not there to make sure nothing happens to them. We all know that children are susceptible and to young to understand the consequences of their action. A child that might think it's ok now my feel differently later and by then have to live with it. Maybe I'm wrong, not knowing exactly how old a child is when he joins the BSA but I know sex should be the last thing on his mind. Children have enough to deal with they don't need to worry about what the two men are doing in the tent next to them or in the sleeping bag next to them!

                            • 2 votes
                            Reply#48 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:06 PM EST

                            You're in trouble, we should let the Republikans pervert the constitution to achieve their misguided agenda. The T-Party has a neo-Nazi solution for everything based on removing your rights with a constitutional agenda.

                            motherjones.com/mojo/2011/08/koch-brothers-school-segregation-americans-prosperity

                            Denying right to ANY American is not constitutional

                              Reply#49 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:08 PM EST

                              You're actually going to cite Mother Jones as a source??? I sincerely thank you for providing the best laugh I've had all day!

                              • 1 vote
                              #49.1 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:12 PM EST

                              A person of your low self esteem probably doesn't read the Huffington Post

                              huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/14/the-battle-for-wake-count_n_926799.html

                              or

                              CNN for that matter

                              cnn.com/2011/11/08/opinion/dianis-voting-rights

                                #49.2 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:21 PM EST

                                Mother Jones brought us the truth on Mittens...all 47% of his truth too!

                                That he has no respect for about half of this country...and they will expose you bigots and fools too as long as you keep giving all of us fodder for the mill. Not hard...just keep reading this forum

                                • 1 vote
                                #49.3 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:21 PM EST
                                Reply

                                While the LGBTs are on their little power trip, why don't they just form their own scout type organization. They can even choose to accept or ban those who view themselves as heterosexual. Is it because they know it would fail and disappear or are they just trying to be their usual attention whoring selves?

                                • 3 votes
                                Reply#50 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:09 PM EST

                                I have never seen a story about a non gay trying to force his way into a gay organization.

                                • 4 votes
                                Reply#51 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:09 PM EST

                                Probably because they are not banned.

                                  #51.1 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:22 PM EST
                                  Reply

                                  Even if the national BSA change the rule, they will be leaving it up to the local counsels. Even if local counsels change their rule it won't stop the hate. It's funny how a group that's supposed to be based on... oh heck it doesn't matter there's still too many hateful people around. Must be contagious. Someone has been to France and brought it back to us. We came up with a vaccine for flu, maybe we can create one for hate?

                                  • 1 vote
                                  Reply#52 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:11 PM EST

                                  It's not hate, and you are knowingly being dishonest by characterizing it as such. The Boy Scouts aren't out there persecuting anyone. Their membership requirements are very clear up front. If people join the Boy Scouts and then get upset when the organization responds to their knowing violation of the its membership requirements, that's their fault. Since the issue of homosexuality first came up in Boy Scouts, the organization made it clear that it considers it "unclean." Thus, practice of it is in violation of the Scout Law.

                                  You know what is really happening her: gay activists are attacking the Boy Scouts because they have decided to attack any potential source of opposition to their aim of forcing all of us to accept their lifestyle on their terms. They have managed to get public schools to indoctrinate children in our public schools. They have managed to force churches to ordain gay clergy, thus causing turmoil in many mainstream churches. And now they are going after the Boy Scouts. If anyone is a "victim" in this case, it is the BSA, not gay people. But Boy Scouts aren't victims. We're people of character who set high standards for ourselves. Whatever happens, we will prevail in this struggle, even if the BSA as a 100 year-plus institution breaks apart. You will not force people to accept and believe in something they cannot accept or believe in out of conscience and obedience to their faith.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #52.1 - Mon Feb 4, 2013 10:04 PM EST

                                  Michael from Falls Church - It's not hate, and you are knowingly being dishonest by characterizing it as such.

                                  Right......."it's not hate" in the same way that the BSA's profoundly racist policies before 1974 "weren't hate."

                                  Before 1974 they let each troop decide for itself whether to be whites-only. But it totally wasn't about hate.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #52.2 - Tue Feb 5, 2013 12:06 PM EST
                                  Reply
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