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Jacquelyn Martin / AP
Pascal Tessier, 16, center left, a Scout, and his brother Lucien Tessier, 20, who had earned the rank of Eagle Scout, pose for a portrait with their parents, Oliver Tessier, left, and Tracie Felker, at their home in Kensington, Maryland, on Monday. The two Tessier boys enjoyed Cub Scouts, progressed to Boy Scouts, and continued to thrive there even as many in their troop became aware that each boy was gay.
Published at 4:45 a.m. ET: Special prayers have been urged, petitions handed in, phone calls placed and pleas for a delay made, all over a decision on an issue that has rocked one of America’s most popular youth organizations: whether or not gays can join the Boy Scouts.
A decision by national Scout leaders is expected Wednesday. Some fear an unwanted new era, while others are welcoming what they believe is an overdue change that comes amid other recent gains for the LGBT rights movement nationwide.
President Barack Obama has twice weighed in on the issue, earlier this week affirming his support for including gays in the Boy Scouts of America, while former Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum has called for an end to what he labelled the “war on Scouts.”
“The Boy Scouts are a fundamental part of this nation’s moral bedrock and they are one of our great cultural institutions. We have trusted them to grow and develop our young men for over a century,” Zach Wahls, an Eagle Scout and son of a lesbian couple campaigning for gays to be included, said Tuesday. “They’re a big deal, and that is why this proposed change is so critically important.”
Advocates on both sides of the issue have stepped up their campaigns ahead of the BSA's final decision: They’ve encouraged their backers to make their voices heard through a phone-in and email deluge. A conservative group, the Family Research Council, said that it and 41 other groups ran a newspaper ad on Monday asking the BSA not to change the policy, and some conservative religious groups have urged their supporters to join in prayer to ask the board not to accept gays.
Related: 'Gravely distressed': Religion looms large over Boy Scouts decision on gays
John Makely / NBC News file
Ryan Andresen had recently completed the requirements to earning his Eagle Scout award, including his final project of building a "tolerance wall" for victims of bullying like himself, but his Scoutmaster would not sign off on honoring him with the Boy Scouts' highest ranking because he is gay, his mother said. Here, Ryan holds an Eagle Scout pin that was sent to him from a supporter.
A coalition of Boy Scouts councils representing some 540,000 youth -- or 20 percent of the organization’s 2.6 million active Scouts -- asked the national organization on Monday to delay a decision on ending the controversial policy, saying it was concerned “about the pace at which such actions are being taken,” according to a statement posted on the website of the Utah-based Great Salt Lake Council.
Roger “Sing” Oldham, spokesman for the conservative Southern Baptist Convention Executive Committee, said the outpouring of feedback on the issue came as no surprise to him since his group felt the BSA had not allowed opponents of the change to weigh in on the proposal, which was announced just a little more than one week ago and was being reviewed by national leaders.
Oldham said he had spoken with some troop leaders, pastors and parents who have expressed concern about the way forward if gays are allowed, particularly those units that will try to maintain the ban locally as would be permitted under the proposal. For more than two-thirds of Scouting groups affiliated with religious bodies, faith plays a large role in the private youth organization.
“When local chapters begin realizing the financial liability that they face if they exercise the local option then … they’re going to have to say we either fall into step or we have just to end the relationship,” he said. “There’ll be attrition over time and, you know, the Scouts will have permanently altered the face of who they are into the future.”
'Feeling of shame'
Some have said they will even leave the organization over the issue.
Angela Russell, who has an 11-year-old in the Boy Scouts and a 9-year-old in the Cub Scouts, said that if the BSA allows gays, particularly as leaders, they would be “breaking their own highly held codes to be ‘morally straight’ and to commit to such principles via oaths and promises.”
If the ban is lifted, “I must remove my boys from this program. My heart truly aches to think of it,” Russell, of Auburn, Wash., wrote in a letter she emailed to NBC News. “However, to leave them in a program that goes against its own teachings would be worse.”
But another mother, of a Boy Scout and two Cub Scouts, said she had “been torn for years” over the policy since her own mother is a lesbian and allowing gays would be a relief.
“I am very happy about the things my children have learned and the tools they have been given from the program,” Gina Beaudry, 37, of Raleigh, N.C., who will be the Cub Scoutmaster for her sons pack this year, wrote in an email to NBC News.
“To have this ban lifted would take away some of the feeling of shame I feel for the organization that has been so beneficial to my children. I would hate to see any child or parent not feel like they were welcome in the program.”
Related: After years of heartache, gay Scouts and supporters react warily over proposal to lift ban
The proposed policy change comes just seven months after the BSA said it was sticking with its ban following a confidential two-year review.
That review was announced months after Jennifer Tyrrell was dismissed from her post as leader of her son’s Tiger Cubs den because she is a lesbian, and a few months before California teen Ryan Andresen was denied his Eagle award because he is gay.
Both cases made national headlines, roiling the private youth organization. Some critics pointed to declining membership numbers as a sign that families were being turned off over the issue. The controversy also prompted a few hundred Eagle Scouts to turn in their hard-earned regalia in protest of the ban, which the U.S. Supreme Court upheld in 2000.
Wahls believes the Boy Scouts will lift the exclusion of gays and rejects the idea it will cause any “mass exodus.”
“We don’t think that that’s going to be a problem at all and think that this move will definitely bolster Scouting for future generations,” he said, later adding, “Our generation has embraced LGBT rights, and like all things, Scouting should not be playing catch up, it should be blazing the trail.”
Related:
Gay teen denied Eagle Scout: 'Change is happening' over Boy Scouts anti-gay policy
Eagle Scouts return badges to protest policy banning gays
Boy Scouts: We're keeping policy banning gays
If you are a current or former member of the Boy Scouts and would like to share your thoughts on how your troop, pack or council is handling the possibility of a change in the membership policy, you can email the reporter at miranda.leitsinger@msnbc.com. We may use some comments for a follow-up story, so please specify if your remarks can be used and provide your name, hometown, age, Boy Scout affiliation and a phone number.
Leave a Comment:
I'll bet the NAMBLA can hardly wait.
"In the early morning hours of May 27, 1991, 14-year-old Konerak Sinthasomphone (the younger brother of the boy whom Dahmer had molested in 1988) was discovered on the street, wandering naked, heavily under the influence of drugs and bleeding from his rectum. Two young women from the neighborhood found the dazed boy and called 911. Dahmer chased his victim down and tried to take him away, but the women stopped him.[31] Dahmer told John Balcerzak and Joseph Gabrish, police officers dispatched to the scene, that Sinthasomphone was his 19-year-old boyfriend, and that they had an argument while drinking. Against the protests of the two women who had called 911, who recognized him from the neighborhood and insisted that he was a child and could not speak English, the officers turned him over to Dahmer. They later reported smelling a strange scent while inside Dahmer's apartment, but did not investigate it. The smell was the body of Tony Hughes, Dahmer's previous victim, decomposing in the bedroom. The officers did not make any attempt to verify Sinthasomphone's age or identity, nor locate someone who could communicate with him, and failed to run a background check that would have revealed Dahmer being a convicted child molester still under probation.[32] Later that night, Dahmer killed and dismembered Sinthasomphone, keeping his skull as a souvenir.
By summer 1991, Dahmer was murdering approximately one person each week. He killed Matt Turner on June 30, Jeremiah Weinberger on July 5, Oliver Lacy on July 12, and finally Joseph Brandehoft on July 19. Dahmer got the idea that he could turn his victims into "zombies" — completely submissive, eternally youthful sexual partners – and attempted to do so by drilling holes into their skulls and injecting hydrochloric acid or boiling water into the frontal lobe area of their brains with a large syringe, usually while the victim was still alive.[33] Other residents of the Oxford Apartments complex noticed terrible smells coming from Apartment 213, as well as the thumps of falling objects and the occasional buzzing of a power saw.[34] Unlike many serial killers,[citation needed] Dahmer killed victims from a variety of racial backgrounds."
Mr. Vern;
At least they don't have to change the initials BSA, it can now stand for Boy Sodomites of America.
I'm glad I only have granddaughters.
"Dodd began sexually abusing children when he was a teenager; his first victims were his own cousins. All his victims (over 50 in all) were boys below the age of 12, some of them as young as two. Dodd's sexual fantasies became increasingly violent over the years; as a young man, he wrote about wanting to eat the genitals of his victims.
He killed brothers Cole and William Neer (aged 11 and 10, respectively) in Vancouver, Washington in the fall of 1989, and tortured, raped and murdered four-year-old Lee Iseli. In November 1989 he attempted to abduct a six-year-old boy from the Liberty movie theater in Camas, Washington. He was caught when the child's mother's boyfriend chased him down and tackled him.[6]
He was arrested by the Camas police and interviewed by task force detectives. Portland Police Bureau Detective C. W. Jensen and Clark County Detective Dave Trimble obtained Dodd's confession and served the search warrant on his home. The police found a homemade torture rack in his home..."
"Dodd was sentenced to death in 1990 for molesting and then stabbing to death Cole Neer and his brother William near a Vancouver, Washington park in 1989, as well as for the separate rape and murder of Lee Iseli, aged 4.
Less than four years elapsed between the murders and Dodd's execution. He refused to appeal his case or the capital sentence, stating, "I must be executed before I have an opportunity to escape or kill someone within the prison. If I do escape, I promise you I will kill prison guards if I have to and rape and enjoy every minute of it." While in court he said that, if he escaped from jail, he would immediately go back to "killing and raping kids."
Dodd was executed by hanging at 12:05 a.m. on January 5, 1993 at Washington State Penitentiary in Walla Walla. By Washington State law, Dodd had to choose the method of his execution, and state law gave Dodd two options: lethal injection or hanging. Dodd chose hanging, later stating in interviews that he chose that method "because that's the way Lee Iseli [his final victim] died.""
"In May 1991, the Washington Times published a major five-part investigation entitled “Scouts Honor” on sex abuse in the BSA. In summation, they wrote “The Boy Scouts are a magnet for men who want to have sexual relations with children...Pedophiles join the Scouts for a simple reason: it’s where the boys are.”[4]"
Gary Michael Heidnik (November 22, 1943 – July 6, 1999) was an American murderer who kidnapped, tortured and raped six women and kept them prisoner in hisPhiladelphia, Pennsylvania basement.
Heidnik was sentenced to death and executed by lethal injection in July 1999.
On November 25, 1986, Heidnik abducted his first victim, Josefina Rivera. By January 1987, he had five women held captive in the basement of his house at 3520 North Marshall Street in Philadelphia. Heidnik and his friend, Cyril "Tony" Brown, would generally lure women back to the home by displaying his wealth and driving fancy cars. The captives, who were all African-American women, were sexually abused, beaten, and tortured.[15]
One of the women, Sandra Lindsay, died of a combination of starvation, torture, and an untreated fever. Heidnik dismembered her body but had a problem dealing with the arms and legs, so he put them in a freezer and marked them "dog food." He cooked her ribs in an oven and boiled her head in a pot on the stove. Police came to the house due to the complaints of a bad odor, but left the premises after Heidnik's explanation: “I’m cooking a roast. I fell asleep and it burnt.”[16][17]
Heidnik used electric shock as a form of torture. At one point, he forced three of his captives, bound in chains, into the pit. Heidnik ordered Josefina Rivera and another woman to fill the hole with water and then forced Rivera to help him apply electrical current from a stripped extension cord to the women's chains. Deborah Dudley was fatally electrocuted, and Heidnik disposed of her body in the New Jersey Pine Barrens.[17]
On March 23, 1987, Heidnik and Rivera abducted Agnes Adams. The next day, Rivera convinced Heidnik to let her go, temporarily, in order to visit her family. He drove her to a gas station and said he would wait for her there. She walked a block away and called 911. She told the police the story and they were somewhat unconvinced at first. The police made her repeat the story and she told it exactly the same way again. The responding officers, more convinced after they looked at her leg and noted the chafing from the chains, went to the gas station and arrested Heidnik. His purported best friend, Cyril ("Tony") Brown, was also arrested.
Shortly after his arrest, Heidnik attempted to hang himself in his jail cell in April 1987
I know this is going to be a high-number and fun thread.
Homophobes versus deiphobes - let the vtriol spew!!!
Great headline too. I'm sure that 2.5 Million kids just couldn't sleep last night awaiting the decision.
Hilarious.
Vern-1642229
Amazing.. that all of the stories/comments you are referencing are occurring before current events. Seems the BOA has not DONE enough to protect crimes against their youth right?
If the BOA removes the 'ban', its not going to cause a rise in sexual abuse. If the BOA wants to keep their ban, fine.. They immediately LOSE any of my federal, state, or local tax dollar support. PERIOD.
P.S. 1 MILLION signatures were delivered to the BOA headquarters in Irving TEXAS supporting a LIFT on the ban.
what the hell has this got to do with the boy scouts ???
What's next, a vote on whether to change the design of the boy scout uniform so that twinks can have a comfortable fit?
what the hell does the godfather have to do with boy scouts?
Because the sexes differ in obvious respects, girls have the Girl Scouts and boys have the Boy Scouts. Why not separate Scouting organizations for gays and lesbians? As for gay scoutmasters, does anyone really think this is a sensible idea?
Vern,
You are confusing homosexuality with pedophilia. They are not the same thing.
Redrover they are flip sides of the same coin. Maybe the BSA could simply allow gays the change their name to DSA
Never was a boy scout myself but I'm sure there's quite a bit of shenanigans going on in the field after lights-out with the scout leader(S) who are in the field with the boys. Some of those older (40+) scout leaders' just looks the part of molesting little boys.
Maybe they are afraid all of that is going to come to light now.
I'd bet there are pedophile scout leaders/masters now, and more so WAY back in the days!!!
JQP,
What you are implying is that any man who has intercourse with a woman is automatically a rapist of underage girls.
Nothing is sacred anymore, the gay community is invading everything youthful except the nursery itself maybe that will be next, if you are to be success full at turning a person gay you have to get them at a young age before they identify with what is natural and start being attracted to the opposit sex, that is why they feel the need to control youth organizations, that is the reason they have taken the battle to the playground, in order for sick to be normal everyone must be sick, then they will be normal. If you feel the need to be upset about wrong doing in the BSA get upset at the gay invasion of a youth group. why cant the Gays just let kids be kids? can't you see the wrong in this. they are children locked in a adult fight and expected to take the hits.
D Buck,
I would be willing to bet you, if the BSA allows gay men to be scout masters, the raping of young boys will reduce within the BSA organization.
Petty Little Vern,
Nothing is quite so endearing as watching the bigotry demon writhe and howl in anguish as it is cast back into the pit of fear and false religion from which it was spawned.
"In the early morning hours of May 27, 1991, 14-year-old Konerak Sinthasomphone (the younger brother of the boy whom Dahmer had molested in 1988) was discovered on the street, wandering naked, heavily under the influence of drugs and bleeding from his rectum. Two young women from the neighborhood found the dazed boy and called 911. Dahmer chased his victim down and tried to take him away, but the women stopped him.[31] Dahmer told John Balcerzak and Joseph Gabrish, police officers dispatched to the scene, that Sinthasomphone was his 19-year-old boyfriend, and that they had an argument while drinking. Against the protests of the two women who had called 911, who recognized him from the neighborhood and insisted that he was a child and could not speak English, the officers turned him over to Dahmer. They later reported smelling a strange scent while inside Dahmer's apartment, but did not investigate it. The smell was the body of Tony Hughes, Dahmer's previous victim, decomposing in the bedroom. The officers did not make any attempt to verify Sinthasomphone's age or identity, nor locate someone who could communicate with him, and failed to run a background check that would have revealed Dahmer being a convicted child molester still under probation.[32] Later that night, Dahmer killed and dismembered Sinthasomphone, keeping his skull as a souvenir.
By summer 1991, Dahmer was murdering approximately one person each week. He killed Matt Turner on June 30, Jeremiah Weinberger on July 5, Oliver Lacy on July 12, and finally Joseph Brandehoft on July 19. Dahmer got the idea that he could turn his victims into "zombies" — completely submissive, eternally youthful sexual partners – and attempted to do so by drilling holes into their skulls and injecting hydrochloric acid or boiling water into the frontal lobe area of their brains with a large syringe, usually while the victim was still alive.[33] Other residents of the Oxford Apartments complex noticed terrible smells coming from Apartment 213, as well as the thumps of falling objects and the occasional buzzing of a power saw.[34] Unlike many serial killers,[citation needed] Dahmer killed victims from a variety of racial backgrounds."
I have no idea what their ruling will be, but I really dont give a @!$%# either. I have never met a gay man yet who wasnt mentally ill in at least a couple ways. Gays shouldnt be allowed near children. Its exactly the whole thing about would you let your kids go spend time with micheal jackson?? Well hopefully the answer is no, so the answer to this should also be NO< If there are people stupid enough to want their kids around gay men, even if their kids ARE gay, then at very least they should have their own GAY scouts so they dont risk normal kids being abused or bullying the little queers, or any of the other things that could be. Kids are shaped by all they are exposed to as they grow up.
Ahhh yes, I am seeing a whole lot more of the other kind of "bogotry demon": The kind that screams, attacks, boycotts, protests and makes character assassinating accusations at the group it wants to conquer, as if those who make the most noise and raise the biggest stink are the ones with "justice" on their side.
What about fairness? The right of one group to ruthlessly dictate to another is NOT fairness.
Let the Boy Scouts do what they want to do. If you want an organization that is tailor made to your specific demands...start your own.
Moved to area as new comment.
Fairness, Yes. I totally agree. Thats why it should be fair to allow the Boy Scouts to make their own rules, even if they dont get full agreement by the liberals. It should be fair for any organization to set their own rules, agenda and parcipitaion guidelines. If you dont like it, then dont join. Thats about as fair as it can get.
Gays need to understand that they are not going to be accepted by everyone, just like gays dont accept all who dont follow their lifestyle. And that is fair and is normal human nature.
If you dont agree with someone elses opinion, then just leave them alone. We are all entitled to our own opinion and the government or any other group should not be allowed to take it away from us.
"In the early morning hours of May 27, 1991, 14-year-old Konerak Sinthasomphone (the younger brother of the boy whom Dahmer had molested in 1988) was discovered on the street, wandering naked, heavily under the influence of drugs and bleeding from his rectum. Two young women from the neighborhood found the dazed boy and called 911. Dahmer chased his victim down and tried to take him away, but the women stopped him.[31] Dahmer told John Balcerzak and Joseph Gabrish, police officers dispatched to the scene, that Sinthasomphone was his 19-year-old boyfriend, and that they had an argument while drinking. Against the protests of the two women who had called 911, who recognized him from the neighborhood and insisted that he was a child and could not speak English, the officers turned him over to Dahmer. They later reported smelling a strange scent while inside Dahmer's apartment, but did not investigate it. The smell was the body of Tony Hughes, Dahmer's previous victim, decomposing in the bedroom. The officers did not make any attempt to verify Sinthasomphone's age or identity, nor locate someone who could communicate with him, and failed to run a background check that would have revealed Dahmer being a convicted child molester still under probation.[32] Later that night, Dahmer killed and dismembered Sinthasomphone, keeping his skull as a souvenir.
By summer 1991, Dahmer was murdering approximately one person each week. He killed Matt Turner on June 30, Jeremiah Weinberger on July 5, Oliver Lacy on July 12, and finally Joseph Brandehoft on July 19. Dahmer got the idea that he could turn his victims into "zombies" — completely submissive, eternally youthful sexual partners – and attempted to do so by drilling holes into their skulls and injecting hydrochloric acid or boiling water into the frontal lobe area of their brains with a large syringe, usually while the victim was still alive.[33] Other residents of the Oxford Apartments complex noticed terrible smells coming from Apartment 213, as well as the thumps of falling objects and the occasional buzzing of a power saw.[34] Unlike many serial killers, Dahmer killed victims from a variety of racial backgrounds."
Proud 2B Liberal: did you even read back your own post? your doing and being exactly what your accusing others of. and your statement of fairness, aren't you trying to ruthlessly dictate others who don't agree with you?and as far as letting the boy scouts do as they want? the boy scouts were doing what they wanted until people like you decided you didn't like their policies because they didn't want gays in the scouts. and my next question is why didn't you and people like you start your own gay scouts of America instead of trying to ruin an organization thats been here for eons? Just because you and people like you thought you should be able to force your opinion onto others who don't believe as you do. NOW IF THAT ISN"T THE POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK I DON"T KNOW WHAT IS !!!!
Another non-story. Who cares? I thought you had to be gay to become a boy scout. Every kid I knew that was in the boy scouts got beat up at school. Why would you want to be a boy scout anyway? Unless you enjoy being molested.
Why can't there be some things in life that are OFF-LIMITS unless you share the same beliefs?
Would a Christian be welcome in an Atheist group? What about a skin-head in a synagogue?
Some things should have absolutes & the liberal's idea that EVERYONE can join ANYTHING regardless of the differences in beliefs is wrong.
Gays can create all the "rainbow" groups they want & welcome whoever they want, but leave Scouting alone.
It is scary how dumb some people are. Not allowing gays in boy scouts is like not allowing black people in boy scouts. Wake up people it is 2013 not 1850!
@ Steve-446003... I think you missed the point. Sexual orientation is something that all people learn about themselves as they grow up. Most gay scouts probably did not even realize they were gay before they joined. So in most cases, this policy causes long-time scouts to be pushed out of an organization that they have grown up with. And believe it our not, most gay scouts do share the moral code of the organization -- that's why they want to be members!
We should NOT ALLOW GAYS INTO THE SCOUTS. All part of the Gay Agenda Movement. We shouldn't place our children in tents with gays. Scouts should not have to be pressured in accepting Gay advances. Where is a child to feel safe.?
Its not about belonging they can start rainbow groups and have all the sleepovers they want, its about attacking the system they want to abolish the moral structure that they see standing in their way, and when they win on this one its on to the next obstacle until the world is the way they want it, the battle for the end of morality will never end, its been going on for thousands of years its been back and forth pro and con always defeated and and hid away till it surfaces again, the pendulum will sway back the other way and then repeat, that's just the way it is, eventually society will get fed up with the queers and shove them back into a closet and tell them to shut up we are tired of your s#it. that or the world will simply implode. cats are cats dogs are dogs and perverts are perverts there is no changing the facts,there is a normal and its not abnormal. you should just face the facts. the problem Gays have is they can't handle the truth. what is normal about being a lesbian? what is normal about being a Gay man? what is normal about bisexual? what is normal about Transsexual's? not a damn thing. other then their crying to be considered normal when they are not. they are just as normal as Pedophiles and Donkey puckers. and they are attacking our youth organizations and that is the line they never should have crossed now they are becoming a social disease.
Are they planning a fisting badge?
vern Are you going to want to be in the scouts if they do?
Smitty, I'm flattered by your interest, but I need to let you know- I'm a happily married man, and my hands are probably too large for you anyway.
Vern, to bad your mind does not match the size of your hands
vern Wow thats a snappy comeback!
Vern, you just need to go be hapy with your wife and quit opening your mouth with your keyboard. You're obviously ignorant, and you don't have to type out the proof for us all to see.
Why can't a separate organization be started?
There is already one:
The North American Man-Boy Love Association (NAMBLA).
Their motto is "Sex by eight, or it's too late".
vern You know allot about NAMBLA. You a member?
No, and I'm not interested in joining your organization either.
I thought "separate but equal" went out with Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka?
vern Gee another snappy comeback. LOL Your the one who brought up NAMBLA not me.
Mike-2444542: A separate organization banning gays - or only allowing gays - could be formed. But it, too, would be in violation of the law. BTW, Scouts... You do have gay boys in your organization, they're just not out. Heh heh heh
Why should a separate organization be started?
You all forget, the BSA affirmed this policy more than 7 months ago, you guys had your victory dance back then. Since then, its members - like myself and others in my family - have challenged the BSA to examine their dated policy. They listened to their members, as they should. They don't care what any of you have to say on the subject. You are not scouts, you are not involved with the organization, and your prejudiced and/or misinformed opinion has no bearing on the decision the BSA will reach.
Good point Mike . Like Gay masters of America. This makes me sick. My children where in the Scouts and learned quite a bit. Now my grandsons are in the Scouts, however if this is passed we will no longer have anything to do with the Scouts Period. Maybe Obama would like his son in the Scouts approving this and never knowing what is going on when they are away.
No reason, Mike. Soooo, why aren't you starting one?
Carol, don't let the door hit you in the ass as you leave.
Mike-They don't want a separate orginization,they simply want to prove that they can bully their way into this one..This is typical of what special interest groups do.
And at what age do boys decide they should be members of the "Gay Scouts" rather than the "Boy Scouts"? Does a boy have to decide - at age 7 - whether he is gay or straight? Most boys aren't aware of sexual orientation at that age. But under your model, they either have to decide at the outset, or join one organization or the other, and then as a teen, if they realize their sexual orientation is NOT what they thought it would be at age 7, they get kicked out of an organization they've been part of for years - told by their friends and mentors they are no longer welcome, and told to go join another group where they have no seniority, no friends, no shared experiences? Gay youth are in the Scouts today - they just can't be open about it, because if they are they will be thrown out - banned from an organization they've been part of most of their life. This is why gay youth commit suicide at such a high rate - because of the extreme rejection they face when they admit who they are. Sex - heterosexual or homosexual - has no place in Scouts. Somehow the Girl Scouts manage just fine. Why can't the boys?
Is it true that the gay scouts have zippers in the back of their pants?
I'm beginning to think the scouts are all a farce anyway. Sure, they learn some valuable stuff, but it seems that half the kids in it are either gay or atheist or the children of gays or atheists seeking to alter the religious foundation of the group. It's under attack. I mean, what does it say about the people who join the organization, that for years they can make an pledge of honor to God, and it's a total lie to them? I say, disband the organization all together. The values of the program, To Teach Young Men to Be Decent and Good and Honorable, are being undermined continuously. That is not to say that I don't think gay people can be decent, good or honorable, but when your agenda is to alter someone else's values for a win for your cause, you aren't very honorable--your purpose there isn't to be scouts, it's to make scouts accept you. Your gayness is not something that the scouts should know about in the first place, just like I shouldn't talk about my sexuality with a bunch of little boys. There's a HUGE problem that sexuality is even being mentioned.
Lu-1324381...
Many of us in scouting who want the change ARE Christians and it is OUR biblical belief that we can't exclude gays from scouting. Thankfully religious people are constantly altering their values or we would still be supporting slavery and not allowing women to hold office, vote, etc.
DA BMAN - comment 4.11 - If you'd read the caption that goes with the picture, you'd see that these two boys were cub scouts, probably long before they knew their own sexuality. Just because it turns out they were gay doesn't suddenly turn them into evil devils who should be denied what they've striven for, just to satisfy the bigotry of some!
I know this in an uncomfortable truth for people, but 70% of all troops are sponsored by religious organizations. So, while I disagree with discrimination, I also do not feel it is right to violate religious organizations beliefs. So, the only way I see the Boy Scouts being able to resolve this is to allow groups to exempt themselves from the rule.
Of course, anyone willing to do the work of sponsoring a troop can do so. I'm curious why so many of you who seem to care so much, haven't done so already.
Dear gays, keep it to yourselves. Don't go prancing around throwing your gayness in my face, I don't go around flaunting the fact that I like women, I expect the same from you. K thanks.
Homosexuality is a disease, a naturally occurring one, but a disease nonetheless. Yes, some animals are gay, that’s a fact; here's another fact, when animals are gay, they are shunned, they live a life of solitude, they are not able/allowed to breed or raise young, and then they die, and all of this happens so that their gay "genes"' are not passed on to the next generation; it's evolution 101 people. You gays should be able to appreciate that seeing as how you don't believe in God. That is a perfectly logical and reasonable argument that leaves God and morality completely out of it. Have a nice day and please stay in the closet.
If you aren't a scout or former scout... you don't get a vote on this one. These special interest groups need to mind their own business.
We here in Rehoboth Beach De. have Camp Rehoboth for gays teens....
Yes Mike, we should bring back segregation, NOT!
livingtxlife
That is your personal choice, and you are welcome to it. I'm not worried about the religious aspect of it, because personally I believe that a person's religion is between him and his soul. My point was that the values are being undermined by people who have an open agenda--specifically gays and atheists, that it very much seems the scouts are under attack of late.
I don't believe that gays should be excluded from scouting either. I believe that all sexuality should be banned at the door. Can anyone explain why gays were banned in the first place? I don't think it was an arbitrary rule just made up to hurt and exclude people. I could be wrong, but I think it was a rule that was put in place because we had little boys being molested by men who took the position of scout leader because it put them in a trusted place of authority (this happens with priests, police, teachers and doctors as well). The easy thing to do was to call the problem Gay and ban all of them for the safety of the children.
Sexuality has no place in the scouts, but now people with a sexuality agenda are forcing the issue, not understanding that the ban was never about them personally. I am certain there are plenty of not openly gay people in the scouts. I'm also certain that the scouts don't teach intolerance and that the ban on gays was never meant to be discussed with the children at all. When you come in openly gay pushing the issue, you come in pushing your agenda, and the agenda has no place in the organization--it's a children's organization--and the agenda goes against the message of the scouts--not the anti-gay message but the message about honor. A person with honor would know that a children's organization is not at all the place to be discussing your personal sexuality.
To be clear, all gays aren't child molesters. It was an easy out, hoping to fix a massive problem of abuse. I wonder if it worked. Has the amount of child sexual abuse with the gay ban gone up or down? That's the important issue when discussing the gay ban, not whose feelings or whose God is involved. Even a gay man who had a son in the scouts would not want his son to be molested by his troop leader. How do we address that problem?
Why should they start their own group when they can steal one that already exist its about being gay and forcing society to except their perverted lifestyle, nothing to do with anything else its their agenda, your morals have to go. if evil is to be allowed to run free and not be obstructed then people have to discard the morals of old an accept new ways, everybody should be exploring new nasty things to do that they think might be fun, free your minds masturbate in public, have sex with your neighbors dog, its the new normal we are evolving set yourself free. join a youth group so you can share your beliefs and help them grow healthy minds.
Lu, much of the outcry began when Jennifer Tyree, den mother, was kicked out of her son's den for being a Lesbian and for no other reason. This has nothing to do with sexuality or pushing an agenda. This has to do with all parents being able to take part in their children's lives. This has to do with allowing all young men to learn civic duty, personal responsibility, and preparedness. This has to do with ending discriminatory and harmful policy - an honorable decision that 80% of active members support (including myself, an Eagle).
Again I have to point out this is change coming from within, with the catalyst being the Jennifer Tyree incident. There is no outside group trying to force anyone to do anything. We, the members, have been vocal and it really doesn't matter what any outside individual or interest group (for or against) wants.
It has just been announced on ABC News that the BSA has decided to keep their current policy regarding gays. It's good to see somebody not giving in to pressure from the so-called "progressives" BSA, you have nothing to apologize for.
MMmMMmBeer, how did her sexuality come to be known by the scouts? What place did her sexuality have in scouting? She was kicked out because it became an issue to someone. Would you have kicked out the person who had the issue with it? What if it was only an issue because one of the boys went home and talked about how his scout leader was a woman who was with another woman? Is it the kid's fault for discussing this issue with an intolerant parent? Is it the parent's fault for being intolerant and bringing it forward? Or is it Jennifer Tyree's fault for being openly gay when gayness or sexuality of any kind shouldn't have a place in scouting? If our den mother started talking about the sex she has with her husband, you can guarantee she would be out. So tell me the details about Jennifer Tyree, so that all of the circumstances are known, because obviously she was accepted until it became about sex, which doesn't belong in scouts.
Ebeneser...that is a complete and utter LIE. Animals are not shunned from their families for being gay. Only humans...the supposedly smartest species on the planet..does that. Replace the word gays with blacks. Is it still ok? The ignorance and stupidity of you people truly has no bounds. No kind of sexuality belongs in the organization. And for the love of god...gay DOES NOT EQUAL pedophile. Saying gay guys like little boys is like saying straight guys like little girls. *facepalm* overwhelming stupidity.
Mike, some straight guys like little girls, and I doubt very seriously that you would send your daughter out camping with some man. Male girl scout leaders require a female co-leader. WHY?
Sexuality has no place in scouting.
I’ve made the same point before, MmmMmmBeer and livingtxlife. For all those who still haven’t clued in on who exactly is pushing for this change now:
The LBGT community and those with the gay agenda (whatever that is) ARE NOT FORCING THIS CHANGE. They tried using the law and LOST. The Supreme Court upheld a private’s organization right to make these kinds of rules. A good, lawful decision by the SC on this; priv orgs should enjoy this right.
What’s happening now is the BSA itself is considering this change. And by BSA, I mean the local troop leaders and administrators. I think people have lost sight of the fact that at its core, the BSA is a local, grass roots-supported organization. Some of those grass roots are the ones now putting on the pressure, not an outside group. The BSA leadership wants to keep the organization relevant and modern the same as they did when they added merit badges for computers, space exploration & nuclear science. And one way to keep an organization relevant for its members is to pay attention to what those members consider relevant.
The BSA should have the right as a priv org to exclude gays if it wants. And the opposite is true: The BSA should have the right to accept gays if it wants.
Those of you not involved in the Scouts yet are appalled and opposed to BSA allowing gays are guilty of exactly what you accuse of the gay agenda: An outside special interest group that wants to dictate their preferences to a private organization.
Westley Allan Dodd never had an "opportunity" like this...
"Dodd began sexually abusing children when he was a teenager; his first victims were his own cousins. All his victims (over 50 in all) were boys below the age of 12, some of them as young as two. Dodd's sexual fantasies became increasingly violent over the years; as a young man, he wrote about wanting to eat the genitals of his victims.
He killed brothers Cole and William Neer (aged 11 and 10, respectively) in Vancouver, Washington in the fall of 1989, and tortured, raped and murdered four-year-old Lee Iseli. In November 1989 he attempted to abduct a six-year-old boy from the Liberty movie theater in Camas, Washington. He was caught when the child's mother's boyfriend chased him down and tackled him.[6]
He was arrested by the Camas police and interviewed by task force detectives. Portland Police Bureau Detective C. W. Jensen and Clark County Detective Dave Trimble obtained Dodd's confession and served the search warrant on his home. The police found a homemade torture rack in his home..."
And of course every heterosexual can be exampled by Ted Bundy...is that what you are saying, Vern? LOL
"
Dodd was sentenced to death in 1990 for molesting and then stabbing to death Cole Neer and his brother William near a Vancouver, Washington park in 1989, as well as for the separate rape and murder of Lee Iseli, aged 4.
Less than four years elapsed between the murders and Dodd's execution. He refused to appeal his case or the capital sentence, stating, "I must be executed before I have an opportunity to escape or kill someone within the prison. If I do escape, I promise you I will kill prison guards if I have to and rape and enjoy every minute of it." While in court he said that, if he escaped from jail, he would immediately go back to "killing and raping kids."
Dodd was executed by hanging at 12:05 a.m. on January 5, 1993 at Washington State Penitentiary in Walla Walla. By Washington State law, Dodd had to choose the method of his execution, and state law gave Dodd two options: lethal injection or hanging. Dodd chose hanging, later stating in interviews that he chose that method "because that's the way Lee Iseli [his final victim] died.""
vern You know allot about a molester. Are you one?
What does murder, abuse and pedophilia have to do with being gay? Or being a Boy Scout? Let me tell you since the ignorance posted on these boards is so astounding: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
How sad such bigotry is even allowed to be spread with so fear and so little knowledge.
100% of predatory homosexual pedophiles are homosexual.
And what percentage of homosexuals are predatory pedophiles, Vern?
"In May 1991, the Washington Times published a major five-part investigation entitled “Scouts Honor” on sex abuse in the BSA. In summation, they wrote “The Boy Scouts are a magnet for men who want to have sexual relations with children...Pedophiles join the Scouts for a simple reason: it’s where the boys are.”[4]"
100% of heterosexual pedophiles are heterosexual. What is your point?
Heterosexual pedophiles do not exists, they are homosexuals hiding in normal relationships.
100% of pedophile are human beings. Lets get rid of all the human beings. Some percentage of these pedophiles are CANADIAN. Let's get rid of Canadians...
I'm sorry! I guess I missed something growing up as Boy Scout. Several points I wish to make (not prejudicial) 1: To be an Eagle Scout one must have a Merit Badge which follows the Laws of GOD and Country, 2: The Boy Scouts of America is or was a "PRIVATE" group if I am not mistaken 3: If the "Gay" boys don't like what goes on in a Troop, start their own! And last but certainly not least, The Federal Government has NO right to tell a PRIVATE group how to run their organization, none what so ever! Why doesn't the Government get down to fixing the Debt of the Country and other IMPORTANT ills?
I was in the scouts as a child. I had fun and do not know if any boys were gay. If they were they were "in the closet". That was okay because if they were they would not try and "pick up" any other boys or try and tell them what a great thing being gay is. If they are allowed to be open gays they could then speak about it and try and indoctrinate other boys that gay is okay. It would be like mixing girl and boy scouts at the same camp. You never did that because of obvious reasons. If the gays were open, the same issue would arise. You would have to watch the boys and boys like the girls and boys. Sorry, but if the Scouts allow open gays, then my grandson is out. My daughter is in aggreement. The Scout Master has discussed this with the parents and has said he will lose at least 75% of his troop if this happens. You might call me old fashion and out of touch. I say..... GOOD. I will stay out of touch. Thank you very much.
Shade101: Although your post is the most logical and reasonable, this is a different America. The constitution is now considered to be a backwards lifestyle. We are driving God and privacy out of this country at the fastest pace in history. Our forefathers established this country to be united with individual state laws. If you did not subscribe to the laws of the state you could move. If people lived differently then you, that was fine, you honored them by letting them be who they are, not by joining them. Partisans have built a strong Central government that feels everyone should live by the same principles, no matter what they believe in.
My daughter works at Boy Scout camp every summer, as do many other girls. These girls are registered Venturing Boy Scouts. Somehow they're not running around camp all summer having sex. The gay boys are already there - letting them acknowledge who they are does not mean they're going to indoctrinate anybody, or be hitting on other boys. Scouting is not about sex, and anyone engaged in such behavior needs to be removed. But you don't need to exclude an entire class of people. And @tom - if this passes, why would your troop lose 75% of members? Your troop would still have the option of being homophobic. But at least any boys in your troop who realized they were gay would have the option of switching to a tolerant troop rather than being ostracized.
Hey knuckleheads,
The federal government isn't telling the scouts what to do. This is their choice as a private organization. The SCOTUS upheld the ban in 2000. Knuckleheads.
Well everything now is as prophesied by our best Christian Prophets. This is one of the signs to America's end - called America's Sign Sin by R.G. Hardy of Baltimore,MD. Of course Bama Baby injects his object for support too. Can't he keep his foul upbringings opinions and private inclinations to himself. Also Biden should be in hiding for his comments. Don't see much of a change from Is Slime to Christianity on his behalf. Go see the details of our judgment on the Nuclear Attack on the US and the leading events to it.
www.radfo.us
Human- No one is worried about the GOV... it's the public's view of the BSA if they decide to go against their moral values and start accepting gays. remember... this is the age of tolerance. The BSA will always be hated for their dedication to God, and The USA....
We are such "knuckleheads"
Shade said,
"The Federal Government has NO right to tell a PRIVATE group how to run their organization, none what so ever!"
So yes, someone was worried about the government. Knucklehead.
Human-
Shade was stating a fact. Stop beating the literal "liberal" drum and move on with your simple minded name calling self... peace out.
Its the way of the Greeks in ancient Macedonia it was common for men to have a concubine a young boy to molest Gay was normal then till people put a end to it and forced the practice under ground I wonder why? it wasn't religion Christ never raised the subject and Mohamed liked all children. it was parents that decided that their children were not your toys, it looks like the queers want to train Boy Scouts.
What are the odds of the whole Family in that picture being Gay, that is happening allot lately I'll be damned they are starting to breed.
The man
you said no one was worried about the gov't.....human provided evidence that in fact, someone WAS worried about the gov't even though it is NOT their decision. It's the BSA ALONE deciding this. Then you say he is just stating a fact...what? He is stating a lie, in fact, and you were just plain wrong. Deal with it. People are acting the BSA is being forced by the gov't to make this change when that's just not true. You're an idiot.
Mike: ????? What in the world are you trying to say? A wrong fact? No sir... it is a fact that the Gov can not interfere with the BSA's decision here.... The supreme court ruled on it. Before you embarrass yourself again I suggest you read all the posts before sticking your nose where it doesn't belong, I'll refrain from calling you anything... Peace Out!
Because "separate but equal" was thrown out long ago as a reasonable approach to civil rights.
I guess that the BSA creed will have to change if they drop the morals thing, I wonder what they will put in place of Morally Straight?
Morally straight does not equal sexually straight. Nice try though. There are plenty of homosexuals that are morally straight. They in fact are the group of people with the lowest crime rate.
OOOOHH IT'S A FACT THAT GOES AGAINST MY AGENDA...KILL IT!! KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!
Is there nothing that liberals won't stoop to?
vern Speaking of stooping your the only one here speaking of NAMBLA. Thats as low as you can go.
They're DemoKKKrats- what did you expect?
damn liberals...wanting equal rights for everyone...what are they thinking?
Keep on writhing and howling, Vern...it suits you somehow...not to mention the entertainment aspect for the rest of us.
"In the early morning hours of May 27, 1991, 14-year-old Konerak Sinthasomphone (the younger brother of the boy whom Dahmer had molested in 1988) was discovered on the street, wandering naked, heavily under the influence of drugs and bleeding from his rectum. Two young women from the neighborhood found the dazed boy and called 911. Dahmer chased his victim down and tried to take him away, but the women stopped him.[31] Dahmer told John Balcerzak and Joseph Gabrish, police officers dispatched to the scene, that Sinthasomphone was his 19-year-old boyfriend, and that they had an argument while drinking. Against the protests of the two women who had called 911, who recognized him from the neighborhood and insisted that he was a child and could not speak English, the officers turned him over to Dahmer. They later reported smelling a strange scent while inside Dahmer's apartment, but did not investigate it. The smell was the body of Tony Hughes, Dahmer's previous victim, decomposing in the bedroom. The officers did not make any attempt to verify Sinthasomphone's age or identity, nor locate someone who could communicate with him, and failed to run a background check that would have revealed Dahmer being a convicted child molester still under probation.[32] Later that night, Dahmer killed and dismembered Sinthasomphone, keeping his skull as a souvenir.
By summer 1991, Dahmer was murdering approximately one person each week. He killed Matt Turner on June 30, Jeremiah Weinberger on July 5, Oliver Lacy on July 12, and finally Joseph Brandehoft on July 19. Dahmer got the idea that he could turn his victims into "zombies" — completely submissive, eternally youthful sexual partners – and attempted to do so by drilling holes into their skulls and injecting hydrochloric acid or boiling water into the frontal lobe area of their brains with a large syringe, usually while the victim was still alive.[33] Other residents of the Oxford Apartments complex noticed terrible smells coming from Apartment 213, as well as the thumps of falling objects and the occasional buzzing of a power saw.[34] Unlike many serial killers,[citation needed] Dahmer killed victims from a variety of racial backgrounds."
Vern, you are being reported for repetitive cut and paste of the same information over and over which is a violation of the TOS. Have a nice suspension.
Yes Culheath,, pretty funny but OH SO SAD too.
Is everything in the USA going to change to suit the needs of Gays? Evidently they think so as daily we hear their demands so why? It appears Straight folks are suppose to respect their wants but they don't have the same respect so why is this? There are those who still BELIEVE that GOD created male and female for a reason which doesn't make us a hater its simply what we believe so Gays need to respect that. Why don't they just simply start their own clubs instead of demanding this and that such as the BSA changing everything to suit them? They demand Straight people respect their lifesytle but yet they don't respect our's so hope the BSA stands strong by protecting itself still believing as they have done for years. Wake Up! America and GOD doesn't make mistakes.....
Amen, Martha.
@Martha Guzman
What is it that homosexuals are denying straight people from doing?
Please let us know and I will gladly protest against homosexuals and demand heterosexual rights in whatever activity that is.
How do gay people not respect straight people? (Other than just everyday stuff, like lousy driving.) Oh, and it's not a "lifestyle." Lifestyles are CHOICES. One is born gay, it's not a choice. If it is, when did heterosexuals, like myself, choose to be straight. For some reason, I don't remember making that choice, it's just who I am.
Also, I don't believe in your religion. I have my own religion that says not to judge others, do no harm, take care of people, build up the weak, defend the helpless, be thrifty, loyal, brave, prepared . . . you know all those things that I have learned that Christians devalue, hate and/or destroy (at least by their very own actions and words have they validated this.)
How sad that many posters on these boards equate themselves to a god that they can take away its power by judging others and determining their fates. Then they quote some book that their kind wrote and say it's all true. I can quote Moby Dick and say it's all true. I LIVE my life to be true and ethical. I don't need any book to define that for me.
Religions and the American government have separation of church and state. I wish people would learn that one little thing.
I sincerely hope that the Boy Scouts make the correct decision and realize that we are all different in one way or another, whether by sexual identity, skin color, heritage, wealth or poverty, religion, and so many other variables. Why is it important to judge one another on any of these characteristics. I would think it would be more important to value others for their public acts and good deeds, their charity and kindness, and their dedication to a higher cause. I hope they "get it."
It's so much better for everyone if we work together instead of pulling apart. We can accomplish so much more with a positive effort.
"In May 1991, the Washington Times published a major five-part investigation entitled “Scouts Honor” on sex abuse in the BSA. In summation, they wrote “The Boy Scouts are a magnet for men who want to have sexual relations with children...Pedophiles join the Scouts for a simple reason: it’s where the boys are.”[4]"
My son will NOT be joining the BSA because of their inability to recognize that other spiritualities are equally as valid and equally as moral. My particular higher powers do not find that love between consenting adults is ever wrong - regardless of the genders of the adults involved. I am not Christian and wish that the rabid Christians who follow Paul more than Christ would realize that we are NOT a "Christian Nation" and NEVER HAVE BEEN ONE.
Vern, the Washington Times, isn't that the "Moonie" newspaper started by Rev. Sun Myung Moon? You read and quote from that? Talk about coming out of the closet...
PFFFT! Born gay,have you ever heard anything so ignorant?
Geez, REALLY?? Were you not paying attention?
They are trying to force, pressure, instigate, protest against the heterosexuals who just want to engage in traditional Boy Scouting without being harrassed, dictated to, given "sensitivity training" and having to deal with homosexual issues.
For pete's sake why can't people just live and let live? The leftists are just like modern fascists...it's THEIR way or NO way at all! Not fair!
BTW, I'm liberal in the sense I believe in liberty and freedom. I am NOT a neo-communist "progressive".
I can see that America still isn't out of it's rousing mixture of screaming, stupid, and stupidity screaming at the top of it's lungs. I can only wonder if this is the same thing that happened back during the days when Racial Progression was moving. People screaming about evil conservatives and how they were destroying the US by trying to mix black people with white people, or remove slavery. The sheer fact you dredge up the worst moments of US history by all your howling really says something.
Here's what I want you to get a grip on: Gays exist. They live, they love, they eat, they sleep, they drink, they watch TV, they yell at bad movies, they do everything you do. They're everywhere. They're probably even in your Church, yet too ashamed to tell you about it, because your entire congregation would break out the torches and the pitchforks and excommunicate them. They are also in your scouts, always have been, always will be. If you wanna make their lifestyle a giant thing, and bring it to the forefront, then it's YOU exposing your kids to their lifestyle. I highly doubt the kids there are saying anything about their sexuality, since you've done all you can to make them look like monsters.
I wish you'd take a good look in the mirror before you start trying to describe what "evil" is, or "against God". God said you will love others, do unto them as you would have them do unto you, that HE is the ultimate judge, yet here you are breaking his laws, his commandments, yet still screaming how everyone else is more evil than you. Here's a thought: JESUS DIDN'T STUTTER. Learn to shut the heck up and play nice with the gay people, or go find yourself a remote island to breed on while the rest of the world progresses.
Oh, and by the way, God DOES make mistakes. Unless you're willing to admit that gay people aren't mistakes, and that you've been bullcrapping us the entire time with your rhetoric. You'd do well to join the Westboro Baptist Church, they'd lovingly embrace you and your ideals.
Booohooo Martha, poor persecuted straight people. Who said anything about not respecting a straight lifestyle anyway? It doesn't matter, though, people shouldn't respect people ramming their God down the throats of others.
Martha you are so right.
Martha, you area self-righteous piece of crap. Please spare us the sky fairy hatred and go kill yourself now.
You'll be in heaven with no gays. Good enough for you? Please do it now, you deluded moron.
Well said Martha!
you are correct, Martha. God does not make mistakes.. and being gay is not a random lifestyle choice, it is genetic, just as being straight is. Don't think so? that's fine, but the NIH (Natl Institute of Health), Johns Hopkins, and Harvard Med would disagree. To quote Lady Gaga, they were born this way..
The Christian worldview is simply this: All people sin. Our goal for all people is eternal salvation. Our task is to help each other get to heaven by building each other up. Every person struggles with sin and needs communal support to stand against it, including me! We should never judge someone else, but it is ok to call out our brothers/sisters sins (hopefully in a loving way) so as to build up their defenses against it. To follow all of this through Christianity does not hate or judge the gay person. I fully accept the difficulty of this issue and even understand the struggle gay people have with defining homosexual activity as a sin. I hope and pray that instead of turning against God because of poor human application of Christianity each individual who really struggles and really wants answers will seek those answers from God/Jesus. If you seek sincerely I know you will find answers!
Except there's a problem, ABCD. God never put into the 10 commandments anything about being Gay. It said you wouldn't do adultery. THAT IS IT. The 10 Commandments are the most basic parts, with the entire Bible being more of a Lexicon Of Bullcrap. Why? Because it's the views of the authors, not of Jesus. Jesus went around helping everyone. Didn't care who they were. Kept the company of the lowest of the low. Forgave ALL sins. Healed the sick, fed the hungry, was NOT BIASED by sexuality.
Oh, and did you know that a council put together the Bible? There are actually a loit of missing stories. Like Adam's first wife, Lilith. Or the woman and the lions... Thecla, I believe her name was. The point is, your Bible is a book of opinions by 12 different authors, where a council of dirty, old, power-hungry, woman-hating men put together a collection of "Men are the greatest thing ever" stories, took out anything they didn't like, and called it the Holy Word Of God, even though THEY STRIPPED OUT SECTIONS OF IT THEY DIDN'T LIKE.
Not to mention the sheer amount of translations, and opinion that may have biased translations. It's even be re-retranslated several times, like when King James had it made so it would serve HIS ambitions. Get OVER IT already. It's not God saying that these people are wrong. It's YOU hiding behind a book, afraid to say that you're prejudice, that you're a bigot, and that you feel threatened by the fact we're not a theocracy, whining that they're being a bigot to you because you can't be a bigot towards them.
You are ALLOWED to be a Christian. But you're not allowed to go around and be a jerk to people because of their lifestyle, or sexuality, or whatever your religion says what YOU think it says you should do. Unless you think it's right for a Muslim to cut your head off because you're an Infidel, since that's what THEIR religion calls for. Otherwise, SHUT. UP. You're impeding upon the lives, and the freedoms, of others because of their sexuality. Yet you yell and scream that your rights to praise God are being hurt because you can't shove Gays back in the closet or toss them out of society! REALLY?!
You don't recall choosing to become heterosexual because it is instinctual. Just the same as you don't recall choosing to start your heart beating, or breathing. Basic biology, in my opinion, would provide the most evidence that the ideology of "gay" is a choice rather than being born that way.
More importantly, the underlying issue is the government's interference with a private group, as many others have posted. If an organization's core values involve religion, wouldn't the 1st amendment protections trump any Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka ruling?
That's a DOUBLE AMEN!!!! Martha!
If homosexuals want to be included in everything then stop forcing your way in. You will only be truly accepted when you are invited...not when you invite yourself. We are creatures of habit and therefore require time for adjustment to change. However, some changes will be never be accepted regardless of time. HOMOSEXUALITY IS NOT ONLY AN ABOMINATION TO GOD, IT IS UNNATURAL, IT IS DISGUSTING, IT IS IMMORAL, IT IS NOT WHAT GOD INTENDED, IT IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE....WRONG! Even nature itself knows this and operates within the capacity of the natural laws of reproduction and only for just that...REPRODUCTION! Everyone wants to be accepted... We (humans) believe that because we "can"...then we "must". Free will does not give you (homosexuals) the right to destroy the moral fabric that the majority still hold sacred, nor does it give us (heterosexuals) the right to tell you that you cannot be GAY. You can be GAY! It is your choice. REPEAT>>>>YOUR CHOICE! You shall not choose for me wheter or not I will accept it. I WILL CHOOSE THAT! If this renders me to be a "BIGOT", then I choose to be a bigot on my own and do not wish to force you to be the same. The BIBLE specifically warns of the consequences of SIN and it is DEATH. If you choose to lead a self destructing life of homosexuality and can do it without forcing your views into my door...then it is your choice. But, you shall never have free reign over my decision making as to what and whom I shall accept and why. NO LAW, implied or written, will ever change the minds of MANY who feel so strongly that the natural relationships between a MAN and a WOMAN are what our creator intended for the survival and prosperity of our species. HOMOSEXUALITY will never be accepted in a SANE world. But, we can obviously look at this world anymore and hardly find anything in it that is "SANE". If you choose to be GAY then go back into the closet...because honestly, there are still way too many reasons you should never have come out to begin with. Your rants and cries for "please accept us for who we choose to lay with" is assanine and bears no place in any forum or place. I've never asked people to accept me for who or what I lay with. That is a private issue and deserves no attention or special rights or special treatments or "TAX BREAKS" or accomodations! GO BACK INTO THE CLOSET and do your disgusting deeds and leave it there. The majority who still hold the sacred view that a natural love can only occur between a man will not force that view on you...WE PROMISE! The END!
ThaMonkeh, What exactly did I say that makes me a jerk? I am truly not here to pick a fight. I do not judge the sin of any human being, lest I judge myself. I certainly am not trying to shove any sinner into any closet, lest I shove myself. I am only trying to encourage a rational understanding of the Christian worldview. In fact I think it vitally important that we are able to have these discussion precisely because they do matter. I only hope and pray that the discussion can remain rational and not so emotional.
ABCD: I felt your post to be very inspirational... Don't be discouraged by ThaMonkeh ... rock on my friend!
Are they going to come up witha F@G badge so that one can show that they are properly queer called a BFF badge or do they just change the name to the F@G Scouts of America (FSA) Either way the fact that they Boy Scouts would consider folding their beliefs under pressure from a bunch of sexual devients and perverts is amazing. The Fact that our president is pro sexual perversion is telling as well. I truly hope that his daughters end up involved in sexual perversion and that it gets on TV just so that he can feel the pain for caused by his own beliefs, maybe they can even have perverted sex have it video taped and released on the internet and then have an abortion so that his seed dies right there that would be the just outcome for attempting to force your perversion on tehe nations children.
Guinius, "You will only be truly accepted when you are invited..."
So, those striving for civil rights should wait for YOU to invite them? Too funny, in a pathetic kind of way.
TheMan-1285490, I received and greatly appreciated your encouragement!
Hey Guinius, if you think it's true that humans are the only ones to engage in homosexuality, or sex for pleasure then i got some news for you. I breed and raise dogs and let me say that they engage in sexual acts for pleasure and in homosexual ways. Hell allot of them are fixed and still do it, so the idea its only for procreation goes out the window. It happens in allot of species.
And to Martha, if God makes no mistakes and homosexuality is wrong then explain to me where a transsexual falls in the big picture. Either way they sway, it would be a sin, and there is no question they were born that way. Hmmmm
To all the other waked out posts, I am a totally straight man that is totally infatuated by beautiful women, so does that mean that beautiful women should fear me groping, rapping, or molesting them? Sick minds know no bounds, they come in all colors, shapes and forms and are not bound by the same ethics, morals or codes of conduct that the majority of others are. With that said it stands to reason that we must try to understand the individual and there intentions before we label and burn them at the stake. Do not fear what you do not understand, educate yourself and make informed rational decisions. Knowledge is what separates humans of today from humans of the past and is what will separate humans of today from humans of the future.
I wish i could say I have always been informed but i can't. I too was a bigot with little to no understanding of gays. I too had little to no tolerance for it and swore it to be the most despicable of acts. Then God enlightened me by sending me the most beautiful, respectful and caring individual I have ever known. She is my little girl that is know a gay woman. As her father i could not be more proud of ALL that she is and would dare to say that she outshines me and those that are ignorant bigots with leaps and bounds.
I hope a homosexual has to save your life one day....will you still be able to look into their eyes and say they don't deserve the same rights? It is in me to wish the absolute worst on you and your family but i take consolation in the fact that one bigotry and hate is dying out more and more every generation.
@CAT maybe they don't want your liberal minded kid in the first place, if you don't want to belong to a organization that teaches morals then by all means stay out, its not designed for liberals in the first place, there are some Fairies camps on the east coast that don't care for conservatives join them instead, there are a dozen different groups that are liberal.
Had a party at my house and this guy showed up and acted in a manner that I found repulsive, I asked him to leave and 20 minutes later he was still their and he even invited a friend, they were both repulsive and insulting to some of my friends so I told them to leave, they said no, you leave. then a friend spoke up and told me you cant tell them anything they are liberals, eventually I moved out!
Cat -
Are you an idiot? How can you say this has never been a Christian nation? "UNDER GOD" is in our pledge of allegiance to the flag and on our currency. And the Bible, something our Founding Fathers cherished and placed into the US Constitution so we would ALWAYS BE a "Christian Nation," states "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind, it is an abomination." Leviticus 18:22
Boy Scouts do not give in to a small per cent of gays.
Yes, they should be forever intolerant of others.
Randy they aren't...they are listening to the overwhelming majority of members who want this change to happen. SLC Council could only muster about 20% support for their prejudiced views.
In terms of equal civil rights? Absolutely.
No when you force others to believe as you do by prejudice and intolerance for their beliefs the term is bigot.
webster Bigot : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
What is a ethnic group?
webster ethnic: of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background <ethnic minorities> <ethnic enclaves>
When a person by pressure and attacks against their belief, attempt to force them to change because those people don't believe as they do, how can that not be bigotry?
You're confused gilbert. Rights are being denied to gay children and parents. Nobody is forcing straight people to be gay.
If homosecuality was a natural condition, then maybe civil rights would be an issue. But cults are not provided the same protections. As a homosecuality attempts to obviscate and indoctrinate, it no different than the Banch Davideans, a cult.
No one is born a homosexual. Such a believe is anogther indictment on the failure of education and morality.
They are trying to force a group to go against their beliefs. By pressure and intolerance for their belief. They are being pushed by force of finance and badgering to change their belief. The boy scouts didn't try to change gay peoples belief they simply disagree as they always have. The attackers are the bigots.
LostinBS:: No one is born a homosexual. Such a believe is anogher indictment on the failure of education and morality.
You are kidding, right?? Just what do education and morality have to do with it? You are born straight, or gay, with blonde hair or dark hair. Tall or short.. this is all about genetics and it's been proven. sheesh
Culheath...
Being GAY has no civil rights...just as being Heterosexual has no civil rights. Our sexual orientations have no place in a PUBLIC forum as these should remain private issues. We have the "right" to be whatever we choose. Now, wheter or not it is accepted is entirely up to the ones having to decide its' place. Homosexuality will never be accepeted. If we follow on this path, and this is not a prediction, it is fact, then the society and world we live in now will cease to exist in just a few hundred years...if not less. Answer this my friend...who will populate the earth when all like genders will be laying with one another??? It will still require a MAN and WOMAN to get this done.
"If homosecuality was a natural condition, then maybe civil rights would be an issue. But cults are not provided the same protections. As a homosecuality attempts to obviscate and indoctrinate, it no different than the Banch Davideans, a cult.
No one is born a homosexual. Such a believe is anogther indictment on the failure of education and morality."
Too Funny!
Guinius - really? So you are saying that no people have civil rights? Here's a quick lesson from Cornell Law School:
A civil right is an enforceable right or privilege, which if interfered with by another gives rise to an action for injury. Examples of civil rights are freedom of speech, press, and assembly; the right to vote; freedom from involuntary servitude; and the right to equality in public places. Discrimination occurs when the civil rights of an individual are denied or interfered with because of their membership in a particular group or class. Various jurisdictions have enacted statutes to prevent discrimination based on a person's race, sex, religion, age, previous condition of servitude, physical limitation, national origin, and in some instances sexual orientation.
And please don't start with the biology debate. You are wrong and have no evidence whatsoever to support your claim - because in fact your claim is completely false. Homosexuality has been observed in almost every high order mammal, including humans, documented since the beginning of recorded history. Our planet now has about 8 billion people...no danger of Homo sapien extinction as you "predict." Seems there are people out there who understand law and life science better than you do.
There is already a organization for them to join. Its the girl scouts.
Lol.
I love that people are saying they will pray for this.
What better way to say to someone "I'm not going to do anything about this, but I want you to THINK I'm doing something about it."
"Dear Heavenly Father, please grant us the ability to do your job and judge these homosexual individuals and not allow them to participate in the Boy Scouts."
Isn't it a convenient coincidence that your God hates the same people you do?
I will pray that God help you to be not quite so much of an idiot!
You so funny.
How sophomoric!!! Go back to your cave.
culheath
MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY !
Captain,
Exactly. And what's really amazing is that they are certain they have a direct line on what God thinks on any subject. No arrogance there.
Leviticus 20:13- If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
We know what God thinks.
True
Story
G67
bible = Fairy tales, written to control morons, like you.
Doom and gloom, fear and intimidation, eternal damnation that is the only thing that religions have in order to keep their sheeple in line.
Why are people automatically morons or sheeple for having values, morals and beliefs? Maybe you should get some of your own before name calling.
You call yourself scooterpants and then claim to have morals?
Get them
@Vern; I know what your saying, its Capitalism for those who will do others harm under the clok of scout master. We need Honorablelism, the scouts have an oath, its very important that oath be recognized as the sole back of the scouts. Scouting is about becoming a man, yet a loving relationship with a girl is not a part of the lessons. Their is not a merit badge for girl friend, at least I never seen one.
@ culheath; But for some reason, and I'm open for a explanation, people whom like the same sex in a manner more so then a friend (which totally clashes with how the scouts teach young men to have a relationship with his fellow man) wish to get in every ones head, on and on and on about how they love another guy and how they need to be acknowledged for the love they feel so strongly about. When your in scouts you shouldn't have to put up with someone putting moves on you, or just trying to turn you so they won't feel their thoughts are not their thoughts alone. Most drinkers want to befriend a drinker.
So I say lets HONER the scouts, if you can't be a member without leaving you business at home then, please find a different avenue that doesn't infringe on others. P.S. If I could of been the only male member of a girls club (Although not with standing what I know today) I would have been in heaven.
If you believe that this is a matter of "leaving your business at home", then explain why Ryan Anderson was denied his Eagle Scout rank? He didn't talk about being gay while at Scout activities. He didn't make advances on the other scouts. Someone found out that he was gay and reported him. He kept his life private. Someone infringed on his privacy and used it against him. Sure rings of "morally straight" behavior, doesn't it? So your claim that gays want to "get in every one's [sic] head" and need to feel acknowledged for the love the feel strongly about doesn't fly here. And are you really under the belief that all of the heterosexual boys in the scouts weren't talking about the things they do with girls or about girls they think are hot? Isn't that an attempt to be acknowledged for the love they feel so strongly about? Do you think that any of these boys bragging about what he did with a girl was denied Eagle Scout for not being "morally straight? Or is premarital sex now ok? Sounds like a bunch of hypocritical bs to me.
@KevNC; Good questions, I'll give you my rendition of answers.
First; then explain why Ryan Anderson was denied his Eagle Scout rank? Honesty, truthfulness, This is a high rank scout award which deserves the motto to come first in an Eagle Scouts life.
Second question; He kept his life private? If he truly kept his feeling towards boys away from scouts and nobody knew but him, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. I find it hard to believe he kept these feelings to his self. Someone didn't break into his mind.
Third question; Gays want to "get in every ones head? I certainly can not speak for gays, I'm just saying like a drinker doesn't want to drink alone. If a gay likes another non gay, he might keep tauting till the guy he likes might start thinking maybe being gay might be a way of thinking he might try.
Fourth question; Boys talking about girls, while in scout activities, expressing their feeling towards girls to each other the same as if they were including boys? Simply no, boys and girls are different, young boys are discussing a mysterious aspect of there life and how they are here by way of sex, that they no nothing about. This is not in the scouts curriculum. If the parents don't talk to their boys about sex and girls, they most likely gather pits and pieces through others. But scouts instruct to Respect.
Fifth question; Is premarital sex now ok? Absolutely not; I would be surprised for to show me a scout who is receiving the Eagle Scout award that has disrespected his oath. Reverent
If my son is a tenderfoot ( very young scout ) I really don't wish for him to be exposed to gay theology while learning the ways of scouting.
Sorry, I have to stand with those supporting the ban, but have no problem if gays want to form their own organizations.
To lift the ban only makes hypocrites out of the BSA and the gay scouts who joined while keeping their orientation secret. The rules of scouting have been in place since the beginning and lying has never been a scout rule.
I have nothing against gays, but they need to understand that there may be a few organizations they won't be able to join without lying to themselves and the organization they are trying to join.
One lady from the article said"... I would hate to see any child or parent not feel like they were welcome in the program." What a crock there are some parents want their kids in BSA because of the values they have established. If those values change then naturally those parents will feel like they are not welcomed to BSA. This is a situation that everyone will not get pleased. The BSA has had their right to freedom of association upheld and yet they get attacked. You have the recent stories of the lesbian den mother and the potential eagle scout being rejected by BSA due to policies. Well, guess what the BSA is around 100 years their values and moral code have not changed so I do not feel sorry for the lesbian or the potential eagle scout as they knew what could happen. When the BSA found out and rejected then due to the BSA's right of FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION everyone gets pissy and attacks the BSA. What a wonderful world we live in with libs now dictating who we can and can not associate with. IF anyone thinks this is over if BSA caves in is crazy as Churches and other religous organization/business will be next as the libs will not give up until everyone accepts or is forced to accept their view,
And do you think that when that when Ryan joined Cub Scouts in elementary school he was aware of his sexual orientation? He worked long and hard, put many years into Scouts. Yes, he did eventually discover he is gay. So what? Sex has no place in Scouts. He was not advocating the members of his troop join him in a homosexual lifestyle - his Eagle project was about tolerance and not bullying. Yet what did the Scouts do? They bullied him by refusing to acknowledge the honor he earned. For all you Christians out there - is that how Jesus taught others should be treated? And by the way, if you're so worried about pedophiles - an really, how successful has the anti-gay policy been in keeping out pedophiles - then you should recognize that the safest person to have leading and teaching young boys and men is a lesbian - no worries about sexual abuse then!
It doesnt matter when he determined he was gay he knew he could be kicked out. The BSA set the standard and he failed to meet it. Yes he did all the work but he failed to uphold BSA values and that little part is enough to deny him his Eagle scout award. Do you even understand what a Christian is suppose to do. Jesus wanted us to love one another but just because I say act kindly to you does not mean I accept values that are deemed sinful in God's eyes. That is why Chrisitians are fighting the gay lifestyle. Christians are saying that gay life is a sin and we are opposing that action or way of life, not the person. Even Christ showed anger towards sinful behavior when he overturned the money changer tables and ran them out of the temple and that is what Christians are doing here they are fighting the gay lifestyle and actions.
do you listen to everything the bible tells you? or do you just pick and choose? The bible is not equal rights. The law is.
And the law tells me that your rights cannot infringe on my rights. By forcing homosexuality onto a group of people that religiously find it abominable (freedom of religion is also law if you'd like to look that one up) then you have started to infringe on my rights of not being around homosexuality or force feeding it to my children. Homosexuality is wrong and I will not have my children subjected to it because some other kid needed to feel like he belonged. If the group doesn't want you, then why would you even want to be there?
Sin is interesting in that it is never content to "live and let live" yet pursues it's goals while crying "live and let live." What we are witnessing has been outlined in Romans, it is the course of all human societies who reject the divine revelation in nature, and, even more so, the full redemtion that is freely available in Christ.
How are you doing with that "no haircuts", "no shaving", and "no mixing of fibers" thing?
probably not so well. Douchebags. All of them.
Whatever happened to "you can't please everyone"? Is that not still true? And here in UT, that gay Boyscout thing will not go over well at all. The chruch runs things out here y'know. And they DO NOT think it's okay for people to be gay. Period.
too bad....equal rights are happening no matter what the church thinks. THANK GOD
No Mike, it's not too bad. It's too bad for you that you are trying to get rid of religion. This is a religious country, always has been and always will be. Nothing you do is going to change that.
The problem is, increasing numbers of people, when they read something like this, they have come to understand that these are principles of intolerance and exclusion of people for who they are.
All these people complaining that pedophiles will be attracted to the Scouts as a new source of victims, if this policy is changed, are ignoring the fact that that element has been attracted all along. This policy change isn't going to change that, one bit. Has it stopped pedophilic priests from joining the Catholic church? Pedophiles must be identified and dealt with - you don't persecute an entire class of people. I know you would love to, but it's very hypocritical and evil to do so, and that is why increasing numbers of people find this behavior, labeled as "principled", are catching on that it is discrimination, the same as any other discrimination.
A simple solution is the organize the Queer Scouts of
America. This way all the fisters can hang out together and feel like they are
included in main stream society. Remember it is the thought that counts. As
for me, why should I entrust my child with someone I know to be a FAG. I don't
want to be around them myself. So don't try and tell me what I have to accept
as the norm. I can make that decision for myself and for my children until they
can make it for themselves. The country is absolutely dying a death of a
thousand cuts. I for one intend to stop the bleeding. So if you have a dog in
this fight (your son) and you feel comfortable with letting him alone with a
fudge packer, great go for it. Just don't ever say that you were not
warned
Jeff, I am appalled at the derogatory terms you use to refer to homosexual men. It would be much more sensitive to refer to them by the more socially acceptable terms of "pillow biters" or "pole smokers".
Boy Scouts of America stick by your values and do not let the bulling by the homosexual community compromise your beliefs. Hetrosexuals and homosexuals both have their rights to their beliefs.
Gay people are not intrinsically insane or criminal. The hate has to stop.
As long as gays a shoved down everyone's throat that's the way it's going to be. As long as gay's try to change everything to suit them,that's the way it's going to be. Get used to it a lot of us are not going against our beliefs. Seems the gays are the hateful one's, they're not happy unless everything gets done their way!
Hey fudgepackin I guess we could say the same about your crappy religion being rammed down everyone's throat.