Something doesn't seem right about this whole thing. A Navy Seal just doesn't get blown away by some jerk, just my opinion.

I guess the 2012 non-apocalypse was a real let down for you, gerald.

@Oh Ed: Do rounds bounce off of Navy Seals? No one is invincible. These guys are tough, well trained, and know firearms inside out, but they die just like anyone else. You can't be aware of everything all of the time, and if you get obsessed with it you'll end up like the perp here - with your psyche in pieces.

Maybe Kyle and Littlefield were wearing Sioux "Ghost Shirts" which would make them impervious to the white man's bullets.

Dungman,

Maybe you should STFU.

Gerald, these men were concentrating on their targets, not on some whacko behind them. They weren't wearing armor plated shirts, but were probably wearing ear coverings to muffle the noise of the shooting. If these men were in the field, their guards would not be down and they would have eyes in the back of their heads. They were relaxed and not suspect of those behind them. Not everything is a cover up or a conspiracy.

Ex Military, just released from a mental hospital, ...... WHY was he released?

His sister (apparently the closest family he had) ..recognized that he was troubled .... and the mental health experts that released him didn't? The suicide rate among these returning vets is at a alarming rate ... WHY?

Good point Moonbeam,

This guy had only been out of the hospital for a week or so...why did ANYONE think he would be safe on a weapon range?

Military Man,

Sometimes it's helpful for those suffering from PTSD to be out on the range firing weapons. They were trainned to be a killing machine and deployed to do just that. It really does wreak some people's brain when they get back and have nothing to shoot at. So going to the range puts them in a comfort zone to deal with the lack of structure. Sadly, in this case the young man had deamons in his head, and felt that the other two were going to kill him so he had to kill them first.

I see your point Dawg, but it is NOT a smart idea, that is why we have Profiles (documents that exclude military members from certain activities). Obviously, since this guy was a FORMER Marine reservist, he wouldn't have, but the VA would have certainly said something about his state of mind and I wouldn't have taken him out there without finding out SOMETHING.

Thanks for the analysis Dawg. You've taken courses in Abnormal Psych, have you?

So, that's what sufferers from PTSD need, something to shoot at? I guess paper's OK but it's way better to have live targets! That's the logical end to your proposition.

Fu, does your suggestion apply here?

"He who lives by the sword dies by the sword."

—

Ron Paul on the death of SEAL sniper Chris Kyle,

Dung,

I actually agree with you on this one.

Nungman,

Ron Paul should get a boot up his ass for that statement. So should you.

Dawgfan: I am of the opposite opinion. Mentally unstable people should not be given guns. The Mom in Connecticutt gave her son access to guns, she and 20 kids died for it. Now this. Kyle was trying to help the guy, but it is simply wrong to give guns to mentally unstable folks. Teach them a useful hands on skill. Mechanics, electronics, being a machinist. OR CAD-Design, computer programming. Anything requireing concentration and skill but not guns. The problem is 95% of Americans have none of these skills and therefore cannot teach them to anyone. But man o man does everyone have guns !. So they take these folks to the range and........ one tragedy after another.

He just needs to be on his medication, give then to him along with his lethal injection.....

Military man,

I never said it was a good idea. It's just what I've heard of through different sources, because the govt is slow or doesn't help a lot of these men/women when they are back Stateside. Non-Profits have the best intentions at heart, but their tactics might not be the best such as this one.

Ireadyou,

I completely agree. Mentally unstable people shouldn't have a firearm, but with the miltiary people it's different. There is an underlying cause that gave them that illness, and SOMETIMES just going to the range helps. There are even hunting expeditions in FL that is geared towards returning military only. Our govt should be doing more for our soldiers and not all the other special interest programs that waste taxpayer money.

Military, I believe Rep. Paul was pointing out that Chris Kyle may have believed too much in his own press releases.

The Devil of Ramadi became the Blowhard of Dallas, bragging in a book about how many men he had killed, even giving a precise figure! He said it was his publisher's idea but Kyle could have nixed it, or at least given an approximation.

Bottom line - being a Navy SEAL does not make a person a mental health expert. While Chris Kyle may have had the best of motives, his DIY approach to helping PTSD victims adjust was what got him killed. While most of us are focused on trying to keep people with mental health issues away from guns, Kyle apparently thought otherwise, and paid the price for his mistake. Leave mental health treatment to the pros.

Would that be the pros who released Routh from the hospital in that condition?

Why didn't the "family members" seek additional help when, apparently, his stint in the mental institution did not work ?

Just think if this guy went into another "mass murder" plot and successfully carried it out.

But, the Progressives will blame the "GUNS".

Nung,

I realize his comment was probably taken out of context, never the less, it was inappropriate. I also recognize that Ron has his opinions of the US military.

Truth is; I didn't know Kyle's name until this was aired, and you are correct, the exact number of kills was his ego at best. That doesn't wave the fact that the comment was out of line.

Based upon his sister's comments he sounds more like a paranoid schizophrenic than someone with PTSD. The PTSD could have actually accelerated the onset of schizophrenia. It's this delusion of people sucking is soul out is the concern and the medical personnel may not have picked up on the schizophrenic symptoms, it is very hard to diagnose.

Ron Paul opposes military adventurism in general and would like to see a lot of our overseas bases closed, putting him in company with many on the political left.

If he'd had his way we would not have been able to help the French get their intervention force's warplanes and vehicles to equatorial Africa with our transport and tanker aircraft based at Moron, Spain in a condominium arrangement with the Spanish air force.

It's a tragedy for both the SEAL that died and the reservist that killed him. So many of these young men come back with inner demons. What I don't understand is this didn't seem to effect our grandfathers who came out of WW2 so much but it did with Vietnam vets and these vets. I wonder if maybe it's because we had clear goals of why we fought in WW2 that we didn't have in Vietnam and the Mid East.

my dad is a vietnam vet and i am in my 40s. my dad was in a psyche ward and also hears voices, thinks the pigs are out to get him and that others want to suck his soul. he also has an arsenal of guns. hes a big guy, and everyday when i was a child, he went to work as a maintence guy with a small loaded gun in the front pocket of his pants. he stormed the rooftop, threatened to take hostages, was put on a locked psyche ward. guess what happened the day he was released? he was able to simply walk back in to the police station and get his gun. he was jailed for threatneing a man in texas of all places with his loaded gun. once again, able to walk back into police and have his weapon returned to him. event after event over the years, all the same, my father never had to get treatment for his mental illness and he never had to give up a gun or even lose a gun that was used in a threatening law breaking way. this country is chock full of mentally unstable people who have rights to firearms, refuse treatment for their mental illness and live many days paranoid like a time bomb waiting to go off. the hallmark of mental illness IS paranoia. what better way to deal with ones paranoia than to own guns for protection? the NRA would do a great service to us all if they launched a campain against mentally unstable people owning guns. put the focus on where it needs to be. NO sane gun owner would ever pull a sandy hook, a alabama bunker kidknapping slash murder, a movie theatre or a shooting range with a famous navy seal. no sane gun owner would do any of these things. yet a homless crazy man in glorida can chew off the face of another man without a weapon. it is mental insanity that kills people and mental illness is the hallmark of ALL these trajic cases.

i am releived that at least the sister knew her brother was mentally ill and had a sense of fear of him. i am horrified that the mother--who should have had the same thoughts of fear for this guy--was the one who contacted the seal and asked him to work with her son. how could you have your head buried so far in the sand that you would pair your mentally wrong son who hears voices and is paranoid with a gun and other menon a shooting range? this trajedy could have been avoided. its the mothers fault for contacting the navy seal on her sons behalf. i wish everyone would just focus on getting guns away from mentally ill people. there are zero laws saying that those diagnosesd with schitophrenia or bi polar who have states of psychosis need to be treated. MOST people with mental illness DO NOT beleive anything is wrong with them and are paranoid of the very professionals and treatments that give them their mind back. do not pair the mentally ill with guns. period. as for my dad, hes still untreated for mental illness, tho hes had lots of stints in psyche wards and still had an arsenal of guns and still carries one in the front pocket of his pants. you very well could be his next target.

What you say is true. In other words, "The one with your name on it will get you every time." However, carrying a gun is effective against the ones flying around addressed "To Whom It May Concern."

noncoms,

Well duh. That's a gimme. I guess what you're trying to say is something like, If you're shot dead first, your gun is no good. Tell us something we don't know. Real bad argument for gun control. Probably the worst one I've heard yet.

Hey is owning or having a gun any defense for the other of the "few targets" left?

Bob fu, actually I don't see why that's such a poor argument. If carrying a weapon is implied to improve your self-defense, how can you do so if someone has the drop on you? Unless you're at the ready, in many cases your weapon isn't going to do you a damned bit of good defensively. What it may do is protect/save someone else, but if an attacker has his weapon drawn on you, you're done for if he so desires.

Voter,

If someone has the "drop" on you, then all bets are off. But in certain circumstances, it would be beneficial, say a hostage situation during a bank robbery, a man walked into a bank in Missouri, unfortunately for him, a banker was armed. He was persuaded to surrender, didn't get any money and no bystanders were injured. This is just an example, but it's true.

To put it a different way Voter - Can you still get lung cancer if you don't smoke? Sure, but not near as likely if you do. Can you still die in a car crash with your seatbelt on? Sure, but not near as likely.

Can you still fight off someone trying to shoot you without a gun of your own? Sure, but not near as likely...

Great post, Bill.

To the story we are commenting on, mentally unstable guy buys gun. Too bad the 2A doesn't specify that only sane people can have guns. Or, are whackos supposed to be part of well regulated militias? The 2A confuses me.

To the 'is a gun good for defense' argument, oh well, where to start? First of all, are you safer with a gun or without one? Is there any proof for either argument? Second, it seems significant that a gun will not help you that much in the primary defense scenario (i.e. someone is trying to kill you.)

FBI stats are pretty clear, when a gun shot causes a death, chances are that a murder has occurred, and not a justifiable homicide.

Military Man, yes those circumstances exist but are rare.

Like I said, protecting others is a definite. In fact I've done so myself.

But I'm also not naive enough to think that if someone drew a gun on me at a traffic light, or walking down the street (even if carrying) that I realistically stand a chance. Nor to be honest would I probably even reach for my weapon; chances are slim to none I can get to it quick enough, but chances are good that as soon as the attacker realizes what I'm reaching for that he'll pull the trigger if he's so inclined. Whatever they want at that point, they can have.

For the most part a gun is a weapon used offensively not defensively unless you have it in your hands before they have theirs aimed at you. To think otherwise will put you 6 feet under in a hurry.

I don't know about you, but I would certainly like to have the chance if it came down to it.

Not to mention that IF more people were armed, it would certail many of those who prey on "the Weak". Just like our military arsenal, "it's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it".

Military Man, yes I agree I like to have my chance, but that also means I support trying to enforce limiting those who I might encounter who should not be armed and who are, e.g. ex-cons, those with stolen handguns, those with psychological issues (like in this sad saga), etc.

And those elements who shouldn't be armed quite frankly don't give a damn about anything or anyone around them. That is the problem with guns, laws and gun control. There are no easy answers.

She gave this information to the police after he came to her house after the shooting , they used her statement to get a search warrant . Are you unable to read

Yes I can read...but I also have a sense of humor...try to find one...

A sense of humor about the murder of two people, one an American hero? I think you need help, dude.

sukmebollix - of course that person could read- was just the type that only reads what they want and then draws assumptions based on small parts of a bigger story. Ya knowm the kind the media loves!

He was diagnosed with PTSD , do you want all returning military locked up if they are diagnosed as such .

I'm curious as to who signed his release order from the mental institute. Was he released because of the facility being overcrowded....underfunded....uneducated? We need mental health reform, NOT gun-law reform!!!

Yeah a guy just out of a mental facility was just having some fun at the shooting range. Stress relief, right?

Just some information to consider:

there is overwhelming epidemiological evidence that the vast majority of people with psychiatric disorders do not commit violent acts. Only about 4 percent of violence in the United States can be attributed to people with mental illness.

This does not mean that mental illness is not a risk factor for violence. It is, but the risk is actually small. Only certain serious psychiatric illnesses are linked to an increased risk of violence.

One of the largest studies, the National Institute of Mental Health’s Epidemiologic Catchment Area study, which followed nearly 18,000 subjects, found that the lifetime prevalence of violence among people with serious mental illness — like schizophrenia andbipolar disorder — was 16 percent, compared with 7 percent among people without any mental disorder. Anxiety disorders, in contrast, do not seem to increase the risk at all.

Alcohol and drug abuse are far more likely to result in violent behavior than mental illness by itself. In the National Institute of Mental Health’s E.C.A. study, for example, people with no mental disorder who abused alcohol or drugs were nearly seven times as likely as those without substance abuse to commit violent acts.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/health/a-misguided-focus-on-mental-illness-in-gun-control-debate.html?_r=0

SUKmeBollix

He was diagnosed with PTSD , do you want all returning military locked up if they are diagnosed as such

No, but would it be unreasonable to think that they shouldn't have access to weapons if so diagnosed?

Most states/counties prohibit anyone who is "mentally deranged" or "mentally
defective" from owning a weapon. It's debatable whether or not a diagnosis of
PTSD makes you "deranged". The laws often read that you must have been
"adjudicated" as mentally defective. That is often interpreted to mean that a
court of law has determined that you are mentally defective. A VA determination
probably isn't an adjudication for those purposes.

Can we really say that the gun the psycho had wasn't a large part of the problem? Kyle and his friend could have certainly overpowered the psycho if he attacked them with his fists, but no, he attacked them with a firearm, probably when they weren't even looking. I don't think anyone who is in favor of tighter gun control believes that guns are the ONLY problem, just that they are an indispensable part of it. Without the weapon, Kyle and his friend would be alive today.

Guns are designed to kill people. Guns make it too easy to kill. It should be difficult, involve some strength or agility or courage or risk to take another person's life. But a gun can enable a 98-lb cowardly weakling to kill a Conan the Barbarian or a Bruce Lee. Just aim and squeeze the trigger. Think of the power this gives a coward over his more athletic and aggressive neighbors! For all too many, unfortunately, the temptation is simply too great. We have to keep this in mind about firearms, and why I say that widespread possession of guns, and ease of access to them, is a large part of our gun violence problem in America, but all the NRA can advise is to give more people guns, or, in some cases, they just throw up their hands and say, "It's the crazies, so waddaya gonna do?" We can't psychoanalyze everyone in America, can we? And how can we even help the people we know are off-balance, when the Republicans in Congress (who are most supportive of the NRA) want to cut federal expenses to the bone?

It's a complex problem and there are no easy fixes, but it's silly to keep giving weapons a free pass on all of this. They are people-killing tools far in advance of swords and clubs, and we have to keep that in mind.

If they were basketball players instead of soldiers, they might have gone to shoot some hoops. Does your opinion of their judgement come from your years of service? I suspect not, since your comment starts with "I don't understand."

That was my first thought too. It's not the first time I have heard of this. This may seem petty, but I also don't understand the '21 gun salute". If I was burying a loved one lost in war, the last thing I would want to hear at his/her burial would be gunfire. I always find it offensive.

You can't kill someone with a basketball. Basketball doesn't result in PTSD. False equivalency.

One of the News reports said that taking someone to the range with PTSD is common. Something about them facing their fears. Like someone afraid of heights will never get over it if they stay on the ground. Remember the old saying about getting bucked off & then getting back on the horse? Something had it have happened that made him snap. Argument about something & guns being available? There is a story that we may never know. What ever happened, the gun didn't just get up & shoot two people by it's self.

@Deerhunterbow1, he was JUST RELEASED from a mental institution less than a week prior to the shooting. "Getting back on the horse" seems a bit of an overreach at that point. I've known people with combat-related PTSD and people who have been institutionalized for mental health problems. When you get locked up in what my friends who have been there refer to as the "nut hut," you are pretty far gone. YOu're generally there because you're considered a threat to yourself or other people - so someone freshly released should definitely NOT be at a shooting range. They are only just getting back to real life. It was an innocent mistake, most likely, on the part of the two older men, but it was also a fatal one.

WOW, your way out there buddy...First you either can't read, or you simply can't comprehend a story. It says that they talked with the sister after he claimed to have killed the two and she was scared of him herself. 2nd, we ALWAYS find out stuff after a tragedy, DUH!!! 3rd, not every veteran wants to claim PTSD to get a disabilty check...obviously your not a vet so you have NO idea how the system works, or what it would even be like if you had to serve your country, much less do it in a combat zone.

Air Force Veteran and mother of a Combat Soldier

First off mama, I am a vet. I also know and talk to people that have served in Iraq that say it is in-vogue to come back from a combat area claiming a case of PTSD; in some cases guys who worked on generators that never left the wire. I also can read lady. The point I was making is that a psychologist knew the Aurora theater shooter was nuts, the mother of the Newtown shooter knew he was nuts, and just to check your reading knowledge, the mother of the nutcase who took/dismembered Jessica Ridgeway saw a photo of her crazy son's necklace that was left near where the body was found waited a week to turn his a$$ in. Lots of writing on the wall that you evidently are not reading!

rckymntplummer,

Then you should also know, recruits are tested for any mental issues before raising that right hand.

20 years in the USMC and it sure doesn't seem to me like " It seems that every vet wants to claim PTSD"

Your claim is just false.

Well said William, unfortunately the questions about mental health and legal liability are very complicated. Politicians take the easy way out and say the problem is just with guns. The system is indeed broke and will take more than gun control reform to solve the problem. There is not an easy solution, but something must be done. People are scared and no one seems to have a clue on how to begin "fixing" the problem. I own several guns and would be willing to go through mental health testing to get my concealed handgun permit. Education, not compromise is the start!

mtm,

Why wouldn't you get your carry and conceal now before you are required to be mentally tested? Curious.

I agree, that's why there has to be better screening of people who have and want guns. If you own a gun and it is determined that you are mentally unstable, they need to take your guns away. If you don't have a gun and you are determined to be mentally unstable, you should not be allowed to buy a gun.

To keep disturbed folks from buying firearms is why all gun purchases or transfers must go through the background check. Folks that have been treated in mental health facilities must be flagged immediately.

I don't disagree Jvalen but how do you know. The doctors aren't allowed to tell anyone unless they believe that an individual is going to act on a specific delusion. They can't submit the patients name to a national database. And do you really think everyone on the other side of the gun counter is qualified to make the determination of crazy not crazy.

Except iin certain states you can purchase firearms from private citizens and at gun shows.

Very true crazy, so we have to change the laws about doctor patient privacy.

And we make certain that those who would seek help will not. Who wants to be on a data base?

Good point Don, but we would have to create an active dynamic database of all gun owners. We all know that ain't gonna happen!!!

Surely you jest. We have no fly lists for terrorists. That worked well didn't it.

Don -

You are making some huge assumptions. Nothing unusual, that. How do you know the status/sequence as you indicated by: ". . . released from a mental hospital then gained access to guns."? He might have had these guns for years.

You then claim that the Sandy Hook wouldn't have happened if there were a properly "monitored and clontrolled list" kept.

Your logic escapes me.

Wrong ranger, they were closed due to budgetary short falls. Remember the conservatives want to shrink government spending. The libs want universal health care which would include mental health.

The mass exodus of folks from those facilities began under Reagan.

http://www.sociology.org/content/vol003.004/thomas.html

Agreed I live in a town where they closed the state school years ago and released all of the semi functioning people out on the world.

Poiint no fingers people - the ACLU had a great deal to do with the closing of the mental hospitals.

Bee: I agree. The conservatives choose to see any 'help' for WE THE PEOPLE as 'entitlements'. Reagan SLASHED funding for mental health services and guess what trickled down ................

Of course you agree, Peace. You have been conditioned to.

So how did Reagan SLASH funding for mental health with a small majority in the Senate and an overwhelmingly Democratic house? I am sure there is a great tale of corruption and skullduggery here. Do tell.

You are correct, Kyle didn't do anything. He should have alerted authorities that this guy was mentally unstable and had guns.

Jvalen you are making an assumption that Kyle knew this guy was off his rocker.

Supposedly he was helping to council this guy. They were friends.

Jvalent -

You are amusing, with your knowledge of what everyone should have done. Kyle should have known better than the shrinks who released Routh?

And the reports I read indicated that Routh's mother had reached out to Kyle through Littlefield. "Tehy were friends? Please share your sources.

How about when the wars end. Should we start some new ones?

Nice to see there are optomistic people left Jvalen13. War is a profitable business.

DKL-3485121

Really bright comment. Pearl Harbor had plenty of fire power too. What happened to them?

When your guard is down there is limited defense protection....now that's brilliant!!

I did serve you moron; in a combat zone and thank goodness, have no disability. I also have friends that are still serving or returning that complain of people who never left the wire who act as if they have they were the tip of the spear. No x-box for me MADMAN!

Curious rcky,

What unit? Maybe we served together.

The murderer was not a Navy Seal Vet. He was a former Marine. He is sufferring from PTSD. His sister told the authorities that he is psychotic. Not that I disagree.

Locking in on you right now.

I could be wrong, but didn't Reagan closed those facilities so we could 'main-stream' those folks??

No it was Taft or Harding.

Try again.

DKL -

Do some research. ACLU sued for "mental patients rights" to "free" patients - no forced medication, no commitment without court orders, etc.

Reagan's Congress had a small Republican majority and the House was Demo. The Supreme court agreed with the ACLU.

So, to lay this on Reagan is revisionist at best. BTW - that supreme court ruling is gonna be a big challenge to remedying this issue.

Wych Doctor, it's so refreshing to see someone with some common sense on these posts.

So, by the white-rash interpretation, he's got a right to a gun...And he is a JARHEAD. Yippee. I am proud to be an American, where any pile of @!$%# can have a gun, cuz white-trash, illiterates from Appalacia and The South say so.

Brenda-1255880.....

"white-trash, illiterates" are NOT ONLY "from Appalacia and The South".

You probably have more than a few (as well as assorted sex offenders) living within a mile of your location.

The actual problem has little to do with skin color or venue. Rather, it is a paranoid world view that is being dispensed (to advance a particular political agenda) by several sources (i.e. Fox New, WorldNet Daily, etc.). It is now nearly ubiquitous (in the U.S.) but, granted, there are regional and racial correlations.

Ah, bigotry rears its ugly head.

Those "white trash" illiterates from the Appalachia and the Sout would include the Founders and Supreme Court.

I like you, Brenda, you are hilarious!