Ain't Religion a wonderful thing? :) Not...

I'll be up for banning Religion first and see if that works, then we can talk about guns. ;)

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

Mahatma Ghandi.

How odd, my church has many get togethers with our neighbors who are muslims. Anyone who apologizes for sharing love and mourning young lives lost...are lost themselves. If you can pray with others, then how can you pray for others and then how can you love your neighbor if you aren't even allowed to stand with them in their time of need?

Ahh organized religion.... "OH no, jesus doesn't want you to worship with other denominations in Christendom". Religion can do some very good things in the world, but.. it looks like it servers more to divide people then it does to bring them together.

This is another reminder that religion is about control and power, and they use faith as a tool.

God likes my dogma more than he likes your dogma. Therefore I am too good to associate with you.

(Yea, like I believe that)

Jesus would pray with anyone.

Jesus DID pray with anyone. Anyone at all.

Please don't condemn all Lutherans. I'm a member of the ELCA. That stands for Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. We recently voted to allow gays to become clergy in the ELCA. We will worship with anyone. We never question (as Catholics do) what a person's religion is before we'll allow them to take Communion in our church. We welcome EVERYONE. Do I particularly like organized religion? No, and I've quit going to church in recent years. But the ELCA is nothing like the Missouri Synod branch.

Thats not the Lutheran Church I grew up with, very bizzare, no apology as you did a great service.

I am SOOO glad I am a Pagan! (Wiccan, specifically)

A reminder that it wasn't so long ago that people took this stufff seriously enough to go to war or revolution over it. Or, in less extremem examples- be hung , disembowellled and quartered for believing the wrong thing. THe good old days!

Sloey 22

Other than the Missouri and Wisconsin Synod, Lutherns can hardly be called Bible thumpers.

I was surprised to see this seeing I just attended a funeral lead by a Luthern Pastor with a non-denominational pastor assisting.

Sounds to me as if that church owes Rob Morris an apology. So exactly what part of what he did would Jesus have a problem with exactly? That sounds crazy to me. It isn't as if he stood up and renounced his beliefs or became a Scientologist or something. He just participated in some wonderful that brought the community together. What again would Jesus say about that that is the problem here?

Another example of how "no good-deed ever goes unpunished".

Pray with Paul, don't pray with Peter.

Seems they all have their oddballs: Missouri Synod Lutherans, Southern Baptists (or maybe just Baptists), etc.

Religion would not be so bad if you took all of the supreme being and miraculous things out of it. But by allowing for the presence of an authoritative god and ultimate punishment at the end of your life, they breed desperate people who believe that they have the answers for all of humanity. Belief is the problem. Humans are error prone naturally. We believe things that we can rationalize. Just because we cannot rationalize something, does not make it false. If you believe that you are right, and believe that humanity will be infinitely punished for being wrong, then you may just do some crazy things that seem completely rational given the beliefs.

Missouri Synod Lutherans are a bunch of conservative kooks. Too bad we can't make them take Lutheran out of their name.

Thanks to the folks who took the time to explain that there are different branches of Lutheranism. I had no idea. Even the Catholic churches (not exactly known as liberal) around here take part in all sorts of ecumenical community services in my community--praying with various Protestant denominations as well as Jewish and Muslim groups. The groups sponsor communal Thanksgiving events (a holiday everyone can share) as well as different initiatives (soup kitchens, etc.) to promote mutual respect and understanding. I have never heard of a church objecting to communities getting together to show solidarity and support, especially in the wake of a tragedy such as Sandy Hook.

I guess every denomination has its hard-liners and extremists, which just goes to show that you can't judge a whole denomination by the acts of a few.

Correct Lee, well said! To paint all followers based on the errored judgement of one leader or one group is actually quite hateful and unfair to the majority.

Yes, the Catholics have the Jesuits, which at times were pretty zealous in what they believed.

I am SO DISAPPOINTED he apologized. It bespeaks how weak he is in his personal spirituality.

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

I'm a Christian ,I say Ghandy war right in his theory ,how many Christians are thrown under the bus with so called Organized Religion and Rulers (leaders) that play God ,only without compassion and love .I know a lot that are no where or left to the "Extremists " because they were not as good as "I'M" like many consider them self's and they need to be punished and humiliated for the life circumstances they are in ..

It is sad that pastor has to apologize for something he doesn't believe in "lack of love and compassion ", just to fit in .

Unbelievable in this day and age that certain religions are still so insular.

I thought that at least the mainstream religions had loosened up a bit.

The fact that he apologized is even more ridiculous.

sloey - Do you post something like this on EVERY story about religion, or just Christianity? See, that's one of the many things that stump me about Atheists. Singling out one religion, being close-minded to ALL possibilities of creation, recruiting as an organized belief - all these things Atheists partake in go against the very things you hate in others.

So tell me - how can you be angry at a God and His followers if you don't believe He exists?

Most Lutherans are all about EXclusion rather than INclusion. It's a big reason why I am no longer part of the Lutheran Church. All of the judgement and none of the empathy or compassion. I bet Jesus wouldn't care if people of all faiths worshiped together. If we can't come together in times of tragedy, what hope is there for us?

Jane H, you are correct. The ELCA Lutherans are much more tolerant than the MO Synod or the WELS, which is the most judgmental and intolerant of them all

Wow talk about being extreme. This sect was there to comfort not just the nation that follows that belief but to comfort those in the audience that do as well, as was all of the religious gruops represented there that day.

Sometimes in a tragedy like this they need to set aside the BS of doctrine and go with the greater good.

Shame on them for even bringing it up after the fact. It wasn't about them in the first place it was about those that where lost.

Panic Moon, when you read stories about a group of people who prey on children, and have spend decades not only allowing it to happen, but also covering it up, how can you not be disappointed at them? I am an atheist. I believe that all religion that makes a positive assertion with only faith allows for abuse of some sort, because it is too easy to pretend that you have the answers. If you take the belief out, and do good things to help your fellow man because you feel like it.... you get all of the benefits with much less room for abuse by the leaders. Minimally, they cannot say that their god approves, and you just need to have faith.

As an atheist you might think I would side with every poster on this thread so far. But I don't. Morris didn't really apologize. It's one of those fake apologies where you apologize if anyone was offended, rather than apologize for your wrong (in his church's view) actions.

Morris could have stood on principle if he thought he was right and leave the church. He didn't. So either he agrees with the church's principle, or he's not of strong character. I'd bet it's the former.

The church wasn't saying that Morris could not lend aid to those devastated in the days after the killings, but rather that he cannot worship with different faiths. Presumably Morris could speak with and give comfort to those in the community without offering prayer. To me this is a little silly--maybe a lot silly--but it's HIS faith he violated, not mine.

I struggle with the common modern idea that each of us not part of an organization should be able to decide for them how they should act, which is beyond the simple and fair idea that if you don't like it, don't join it. Too many people want to impose on others their own reality, whatever that is. Frankly, given the state of the nation I'm not sure you people are the kinds of people we should be trying to emulate, not if your version of right and wrong, or of morality, is the scale on which we should be judged.

See, look at this another way...Say Morris had never participated in THAT service. Nothing was to prevent him from holding how own service. Nothing exists to prevent him from commemorating that tragic day, or from tending to those in need regardless of their faith. His offense, which to me makes no sense but to him does else he'd not have apologized, was simply to worship with other faiths.

I do love (sarcasm) the posts above that are prideful over the fact that they, in their churches, have absolutely no standards for who can or cannot take part in communion. If organized religion has any value beyond its more secular uses (schools, charity, etc) then it must be in making an effort to help people get right with God. So the idea you wouldn't care at all that someone is right with your God, and would casually offer thaty person communion with your God, bespeaks to me, almost, a disdain for your God himself. You have relegated God to a position of subjugation to you. How can this be?

No thanks in any event for all of this. I'll remain an atheist.

Hey Chris,

I'm not sure how you connect the Lutheran Church, MS, to child molestation. I wasn't aware they were in the news for it. I agree with your general idea about doing good deeds, but it has nothing to do with tangential abuse potential. That's the part of your post I really don't get. If only religious people were hosing little kids then you would have a great point, but pedophelia among the religious is about as common as among the non-religious. People are flawed. Their religion doesn't make them more flawed.

The comment suggesting that "most" Lutherans are more exclusive than inclusive is inconsistent when in the same statement you point out that the ELCA is not like that. The ELCA is the largest Lutheran denomination in the U.S. (by far). In fact, last I checked it was the seconded largest Lutheran denomination in the world. Frankly, the Missouri Synod position on this is not (in my opinion) consistent with the beliefs of the reformist after whom we're named. The ELCA that I know is very inclusive and believes that it would be arrogant to suggest we have all the answers.

Another bat-chit crazy sect. All about the authority of the leadership, very low on compassion.

I pray to the creator that if there is a heaven, that they (and the other nutjob believers) will not be there.

Why do people go to whaccko religions when they so obviously are a ponzi-scheme of extortion and guilt?

-->"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

That is an endorsement for Christianity. And at the same time, a statement that none of us are worthy. I agree with both, thanks.

What Ghandi DIDN'T say was that Christianity should be abolished, or banned, or was stupid, or anything like that. Although I now that's what YOU were insinuating.

Just because the average Christian fails in bahavior doesn't mean that Jesus Christ didn't die on the cross to pay the penalty for our bad behavior. That's the whole point!

Amen.

Jane H you really need to get your facts straight before you post. Have you ever even been to a Catholic mass or done any reading about the mass? The priest does not ask about one's religion prior to administering the eucharist during the mass. There is one simple statement in the front of the missal that explains the belief of the Catholic church regarding communion. No one "bars" someone from communion in a big dramatic scene. Furthermore, Catholic priests are not barred from participating in interfaith services, regardless of who might be there. Your statements about acceptance might be extended towards Catholics, don't you think?

I am proud to be atheist.

Double post; sorry.

He shouldn't have "caved". He did the right thing being there.

Where I live, we've got plenty of Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod ("Mosyns," as they are called around here) churches. Yup, they're that bad. But if you think they are, try the Wisconsin Evangelical Synod Lutherans ("Wels," as they are called) of which we have lots more. They're not allowed to pray even with other Lutherans. They consider themselves (along with a couple other teeny Lutheran sects) the only true church and religion. They try to insulate their kids from exposure to other religions by having their own schools, from pre-school right up through college. The kids are not permitted to be scouts because they might end up praying the Our Father with non-Wels and thus participating in a blasphemous worship service with those who all belong to a false religion.

Hey Rich, I may have cross posted because of another story on the Catholic Church. For that I apologize. In this case, I don't understand how any religious institution can justify not supporting humans in need. It is contrary to what they claim to bee about. I dislike exclusionary religion.

i am proud to be a Christian. I do not verbally flaunt it. i try and do what is right and let my actions speak for me. sometimes i fail. i am not in fear of these failures. i am not perfect. i do not judge others for their beliefs or wrong doings. we all have our burdens - judgement day will come for all at some point. this is what i believe. if you do not that is ok. i will not call you names or say you are stupid or anything degrading. i have been called many things for my faith, that is ok, the man who was perfect and lived his life bringing the kingdom of heaven to earth died for the worlds trangessions. life is made of choices, your choices, you wil llive with them and you will die with them. i wish everyone the very best in "living the way you choose too"

i am proud to be a Christian. I do not verbally flaunt it. i try and do what is right and let my actions speak for me. sometimes i fail. i am not in fear of these failures. i am not perfect. i do not judge others for their beliefs or wrong doings. we all have our burdens - judgement day will come for all at some point. this is what i believe. if you do not that is ok. i will not call you names or say you are stupid or anything degrading. i have been called many things for my faith, that is ok, the man who was perfect and lived his life bringing the kingdom of heaven to earth died for the worlds trangessions. life is made of choices, your choices, you wil llive with them and you will die with them. i wish everyone the very best in "living the way you choose too"

i am proud to be a Christian. I do not verbally flaunt it. i try and do what is right and let my actions speak for me. sometimes i fail. i am not in fear of these failures. i am not perfect. i do not judge others for their beliefs or wrong doings. we all have our burdens - judgement day will come for all at some point. this is what i believe. if you do not that is ok. i will not call you names or say you are stupid or anything degrading. i have been called many things for my faith, that is ok, the man who was perfect and lived his life bringing the kingdom of heaven to earth died for the worlds trangessions. life is made of choices, your choices, you wil llive with them and you will die with them. i wish everyone the very best in "living the way you choose too"

i am proud to be a Christian. I do not verbally flaunt it. i try and do what is right and let my actions speak for me. sometimes i fail. i am not in fear of these failures. i am not perfect. i do not judge others for their beliefs or wrong doings. we all have our burdens - judgement day will come for all at some point. this is what i believe. if you do not that is ok. i will not call you names or say you are stupid or anything degrading. i have been called many things for my faith, that is ok, the man who was perfect and lived his life bringing the kingdom of heaven to earth died for the worlds trangessions. life is made of choices, your choices, you wil llive with them and you will die with them. i wish everyone the very best in "living the way you choose too"

sorry - hit post and went up four times ......

If God exists, I'm sure he's either laughing or crying at us, one or the other. We humans are idiots, no other way to say it. If I was Him, I'd deny having anything to do with the creation of humans. In fact I'd deny it, and demand proof. Hmmm.

A Great Leader said, way back in the 1700's, "All you Christians claim to read and obey the Christian Bible. Why all the disagreement amongst all you Christians, since all of you are able to read the exact same book?" (paraphrased)

So, why all the disagreement amongst all you Christians, since the Christian Bible says the exact same thing no matter what "denomination" your church happens to be?

"A Connecticut Lutheran pastor has apologized for participating in an interfaith prayer vigil for the 26 children and adults killed at a Newtown elementary school in December because his church bars its clergy from worshipping with other faiths."

If I were him I would get out of this destructive cult ASAP

Like I always say... how can we ever expect christians to get along with everyone else, when they can not even get along with each other.

This is not a problem about Lutherans, Lutheran synods, or the specific synod involved in this (blank) debacle. It's about the person making the institutional decision, flexing their institutional muscle to serve a totally institutional interest. Clearly, a person exercising his personal Christianity participated in a Christian act of community benevolence. So where's the beef? Symbolism trumping substance? Does this mean that all the blessings prayed for are null and void because the benediction thereto was illegal somehow? Carp

We shall all be known by our acts and deeds. This pastor will be known by his, and the cult members of the other church who demanded the apology will be known by theirs. I'm not sure I'd want to be around when they stand before God for their judgement.

Missouri Synod has always been this way--they are not like other Lutherans. Their charter (from the mid-1800's) prohibits ecumenicalism. Another Synod pastor got in trouble for participating in an interfaith service after 9/11. The church managed to sort of plea bargain the "problem" to avoid permanently disenfranchising the pastor and looking even worse than it did.

Any belief system that can't show any compassion to humanity without spouting their dogma isn't worth a dime. 26 people were murdered, 20 of them were children and all that this church leader can do is request an apology from the pastor offering compassion at this time. Why couldn't stupid, intolerate people just die instead of those kids? Now that would be an act of a compassionate God.

I am a lifelong Lutheran but this is the first time I have ever been ashamed of my religion. I am proud that Pastor Morris did what he thought was right rather than what the powers of his church thought. It is past time that we realize that we must stop being judgmental in our faith and realize that Jesus taught love, not love of just some people but everyone. There is a great verse in Matthew that says, "Judge not lest ye be judged." I grew up with my mother reminding me of this. She said it is not man's place to tell people what they do is wrong, it is God's. So good for you Pastor Morris! Thanks for standing up for comfort rather than the ideas of a bunch of stuffy old men.

Many religions need to stop being so stupid.

Jane that is not what I was taught as a catholic. I was taught to accept everyone, so when you state that is how catholics are, you better take a step back and tell me where that is taught. I figured this is a particular set of lutherans who did that, and I know most folks don't think that way. So please don't judge all. This is stupid that this guy got in trouble, but it once again shows that only a few christians/lutherans/muslims etc. tend to make the whole religion look bad.

GOD IS A LUTHERAN... I didn't know! Oh for God's sake these people (and yes I said that) make God so SMALL you would think the creator of the multiverse, infinite time and space lived only in their county. Here in Texas they all think he is Baptist, Republican, a white male, a southenern who hunts, fishes, bowls and lives in a double wide!

This is totally ridiculous.....this wasn't about what religion believes what about God....it was about the children and the others who were killed! If my pastor did something like this and then apologized later, I would find another church to attend!! It's Pastor Harrison that needs to do the apologizing -- NOT Pastor Morris, who did the right thing for the right reasons!!

Believe it or not, this was the same pastor who was almost de-frocked in 2001! Looks as though the Lutheran spy-robots have been keeping him on a pretty short leash for the past decade. Very sad, really. I have always maintained that the "believers" in most organized religions today WOULD NOT HAVE ACCEPTED Jesus Christ into their churches or places of worship were he to appear on a given Sunday. First of all, he would NOT look like a northern European....he'd probably look more like a middle eastern Shiite or Sunni muslim...dark skin and all. Definitely suspect to the white Chrisitans of the germanic north. Also, Martin Luther HIMSELF was totally turned off by the "organized" strains of his religion when it was founded. No one really knows Luther intended upon the foundation of his church....he was really trying to reform a corrupt Catholic church....he'd have his hands full today just to rein in his own believers.

"The comment suggesting that "most" Lutherans are more exclusive than inclusive is inconsistent when in the same statement you point out that the ELCA is not like that. The ELCA is the largest Lutheran denomination in the U.S. (by far). In fact, last I checked it was the seconded largest Lutheran denomination in the world. Frankly, the Missouri Synod position on this is not (in my opinion) consistent with the beliefs of the reformist after whom we're named. The ELCA that I know is very inclusive and believes that it would be arrogant to suggest we have all the answers."

thank you, John, I appreciate your reply. I wasn't thinking in terms of sheer numbers, but rather that one out of three synods is more inclusive than the other two. I have been both WELS and ELCA in my lifetime and while the ELCA is more consistent with my personal beliefs, my experience in the WELS church was bad enough to sour me on organized religion. I usually do some research before I comment but in this case I commented pretty much out of personal bias. (tho the bias is based on personal experience)

I was raised in the Lutheran Church and throughout my life have been a member of several Synods (including ALC and LCA but primarily Missouri - depending on which was available in the area I was living) and I find this shocking! I have to wonder if this has been added to the doctrine in recent years because every Lutheran church I have attended in the past 50 years held joint events (Bible studies, youth groups, joint choirs, and various worship services) with other community churches of various religions. One church I attended for many years would commonly get together with the congregation of the Synagogue "next door." I enjoyed learning about different faiths and how and what they celebrate. One of my favorite events with the Synagogue was when we held (in the reception room of the Lutheran Church) a Seder. And then there were always huge prayer vigils on the National Day of Prayer - the entire purpose of which is to bring different faiths together in prayer for our leaders and our country with prayers given by the Pastors/Priests/Rabbis/Etc. I wonder if this Pastor is also forbidden to participate in this?

I am a pastor in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and am extremely saddened by the treatment that my brother pastor received from some within our church body for sharing words of comfort and peace to those mourning the horrific loss of their children and loved ones. I know that my sentiments are sharing by many members and pastors within our church body. I continue to pray for the people of Sandy Hook, as well as Pastor Morris, and even those who oppose his actions. May the peace of Christ be with us all!

Is there anything I despise more than organized religion?

Possibly, but you could count them on two or less fingers.

Lutherans, the new(old) haters on the block. We dont care for anyone who isnt one of us. Sounds just like the Muslims/Mormons/Baptists/etc... Its okay for us to be friends as long as you know that I dont accept you for being a christian/muslim/jew/hindu/buddist because you dont believe what I believe.

Organized religion is a joke. Having a belief in God is important but to subscribe to being a Lemming in some church seems so 18th century. That is one of the main reasons I havent attended church in about six years. All they want is your money and your mind. Having good moral fiber, a conscious, love for your fellow man, and faith in God should be enough IMO.

I am a libertarian, and these comments are exactly why I dislike liberals even more than I do conservatives.

All of you on the left run around screaming all the time about tolerance and civil rights but when it comes to the right to practice a faith, a right that is guaranteed by the First Amendment, you show as much tolerance as the Westboro Baptist Church shows for gays.

This is an internal matter for the Lutheran Church. I don't know their theology, but I would bet there would not have been any problems had the pastor joined in the ceremony as a lay person and not officially representing the Lutheran Church. They aren't saying to not pray for the victims.

Before any of you bigots get your panties in a bunch, you should know that I do not agree with the actions of the Lutheran Church. But, it is none of my business. And it is not the business of any of you.

You're all acting like a bigoted mob getting ready to go to a lynching. I hope that makes you feel really proud of yourselves. If someone isn't causing harm, it's none of your business what the hell they do.

Patrick

All of you on the left run around screaming all the time about tolerance and civil rights but when it comes to the right to practice a faith, a right that is guaranteed by the First Amendment

Is someone on the left discussing the removal of "civil rights" from the Lutheran church? No. We are simply commenting on the irony and hypocrisy that is rampant in the christian religion.

No one is suggesting we take away "rights", or make laws against this church... ironically, those on the right DO make laws against those they do not agree with.

you show as much tolerance as the Westboro Baptist Church shows for gays.

Actually, Republicans have more in common with the Westboro Baptist Church than anyone else. Both feel the exact same way about homosexuals. Both believe that their "god" punishes innocent people to make a political point.

Example: The Westboro Baptist Church claims that "god" allowed 20 school children to be killed because of homosexuality. Republicans claimed that "god" allowed 20 school children to be killed because "god was removed from schools". The WBC communicates this message on signs at funerals, while Republicans communicate the same message on a "news" station.

Both groups believe that a vengeful, angry, insecure being... who supposedly created everyone... goes out of his way to allow (or cause) horrible acts, in an effort to make a political point.

Both groups show extreme disrespect towards soldiers, because of their views on homosexuals. The WBC pickets soldier funerals to show their disgust for homosexuals. Republicans mock and "boo" soldiers on live television, during their debate, to show their disgust towards homosexuals.

Really, the only difference is that one group uses picket signs, while the other uses Fox News. Same message... different means of communication.

A couple of things.....This is not The Lutheran Church, it is the Missouri Synod Luthern...who, when they speak of "not allowing particupation in interfaith services..." they mean other Lutherans. There were MANY other organized religion leaders at that service, none of them are being called out by their church leaders for public humilation and apologies...just sayin

Betsy, I apologize if I offended you. But the Catholic church in my city does not allow persons of another religion to take Communion. I've been to mass, funerals, weddings, etc., at this church. It's announced before Communion that persons of other religious affiliations are welcome to come forward for a blessing, but not to partake in Communion. I shouldn't have judged all Catholic churches by the standards of one.

The Missouri Synod is being run by idiots and fools and they are giving the global Lutheran church a bad name. Maybe THEY should be the ones excommunicated? And, Mr. Matthew Harrison should know this:

"...our differences with respect to who God is, who Jesus is, how he deals with us, and how we get to heaven, really don't matter in the end." It's not about how much money you give to the church. And there is not some creepy, sub-divided, bizarro Heaven somewhere that sub-lets space to Lutherans over here, Protestants over there, Muslims go there, and over here will be the Catholics. You Jews can go back there"

And if you believe in that kind of Heaven, I hope you are right. Because I certainly would not want to spend the ever-after in any proximity to you! Me? I'm sort of a Ghandi Christian. I believe in that almighty power and force, which we call God. I just don't believe in religion. And, if I did believe in religion, I certainly would not want anything to do with a religion that thinks it is proper to excommunicate someone for gathering with other of God's creatures to pray for so many lost. I could in no way accept a religion that would demand a public apology of a minister for the 'crime' of praying for so many small victims of mass murder.

If I'm ever in his area, though, I might just visit the church of the Rev. Rob Morris. Maybe he's got a concept about what Christianity really means.

So I guess the First Amendment with the religious freedom portion that someone wants repeal. Lets see how long that lasts untill people rise up. Yes I understand the first Amendment and no the person who wants the repeal does not understand the first Amendment or Americans in general so don't tell me anything you'll keep other Amendments. Got it you miserable creep

He should apologize for the exclusionary perpsective of the Lutheran Church, not for his very Christian, caring actions.

mguy-478

That's a nice straw man you brought out. I don't care what you think about how the right acts about things. I don't like them either, and I am not defending them.

People don't usually comment on the hypocrisy. Most of the time they are commenting on what they perceive to be hypocrisy based upon their limited knowledge of another person's faith. But I can tolerate that. I'm known to do that same thing. But that still doesn't mean that it's your business or my business. This is a matter that concerns Lutherans only and has no bearing on the life of anyone else. MSN shouldn't even be reporting it. It is none of their business.

But, my last comment was referring specifically to all the anti-faith comments that are in this thread. If you don't believe, fine. But that doesn't give you the right to belittle another person or group. That's called bigotry. The right doesn't normally rail against bigotry. That's why I find it more repugnant when it comes from the left than I do from the right. The left sees bigotry everywhere, even when it doesn't exist. But they fail to acknowledge the bigotry within their own ranks. But it's all through this thread.

As a lifelong Lutheran, I'm deeply saddened by the actions of the leaders in this church. I grew up in the ALC which is now ELCA. I spent about 10 years in a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church, for the past 13 years I've been back in the ELCA. Shame on these so called church leaders. If the Missouri Synod isso convinced their interpretation of scripture is correct, what better way to spread the Gospel than to get out among the "unwashed" and show your love. Unfortunately this action will taint all Lutheran Churches as intolerant, nothing could be further from the truth.

Seems perfectly reasonable...

Several competitors are selling slight variations of the same product for profit so all must claim that their particular widget is far superior to the widgets offered by the others... It makes absolutely no sense to set up in adjoining booths at the trade show like this once you realize that it could have an adverse effect on sales, and hence, profits.

Man only "organizes" religion based on the profit motive. If you think about it, it's really ridiculous, man "organizing" religion... Gods little helper bees... for a price. I doubt any of them hold a special place of esteem with any supreme being. They're more like the dregs of humanity.

They sell what is already free to all, so in a business sense they're no more or less than the bottled water people. They profit from extracting from the hopes and dreams of others without producing... So in a personal sense they're like a Romney.

For a second, I thought this story was about the Westboro Baptist Lunatics

...instead, it's about the Lutherans and their Lunatics

God....save me from your followers...

Most Lutherans are all about EXclusion rather than INclusion.

When I moved into my town the only clergy member to stop by and welcome me was our local Lutheran Minister. My family were all baptisted Catholics. He didn't preach or recruit. He just stopped by to welcome us.

aquatone:

In contrast, Humans are extremely brilliant. Just review our accomplishments over the last 50 years. There is no other form of life capable of our being. Only rotten souls feels themselves as idiots.

DoWhatsRight - USA, I voted up every one of your repeated comments! ;-)

I'm an atheist and I hate anything that superficially divides human beings. I hate stupid fighting about nothing, and good deeds being punished.

There's an excellent film by the Indian filmmaker Satyajit Ray called The Stranger (no relation to the Camus novel) that deals with religious bigotry and suspicion. It's also very funny and warm. That and the film Jesus of Montreal (1989) I recommend to everyone.

you know there has to be a way to psychologically evaluate people or the individual with religious beliefs

i think its all about a comfort feeling

the feeling of that I'm not alone in this world there's a higher power looking over me healing my wounds ,

the feeling of purpose like how and why I'm here and exist ,

the feeling that when i die its not for ever i will keep on living in another realm of existence ,

and my loved ones aren't dead for ever There in a better place and i will be reunited with when i die ,

the comfort in god created man in his image to bring god to a human level ( who can worship a big ball of light right?)

and Christ because he actually walked as a man.

the comfort of no Mather what i do that's bad I'm forgiven and every ting's going to be OK.

well deres just a few examples of how religion can be comforting too bad people cant do this on deir own and have to believe in religion .

and murder each other over differences about religious beliefs

if there were no religion this world would be a much safer place .

night maniac - The world would be better without organized religion. Religous beliefs by themselves don't hurt anyone and they help an awful lot of people.

Patrick

But that doesn't give you the right to belittle another person or group.

So you, and those on the right, have the "right" to belittle any group that contradicts your faith... but we do not have the "right" to belittle you?

In fact, people like YOU take it a step further. Not only do you belittle those you do not agree with, you pass laws and legislation against the groups you do not agree with. You use your faith as justification to pass laws that oppress other people, simply because you do not agree with their lifestyle.

The right doesn't normally rail against bigotry. That's why I find it more repugnant when it comes from the left than I do from the right.

Have you been missing for the past 4 years?

The right "rails" against EVERYBODY who they deem as unworthy or un-christian. The right "rails" against women who use birth control, calling them sluts. The right "rails" against women who became pregnant from rape, claiming that they were not really raped because their body has a magical way to "shut it down". The right "rails" against homosexuals every single god damn day... hell, they mocked a soldier on live television just because he was gay. The right "rails" against homosexual teenagers and calls them "barbarians". The right "rails" against any other religion and immediately screams "war on christmas" any time another religion happens to display their belief in December. The right "rails" against Muslims at every turn, even if the specific person has done nothing to them. The right "rails" against the poor every minute of every day, blaming them for problems that were created by big banks.

The entire Republican platform is based solely on "railing" against everyone they HATE. Most of the time, these groups have done nothing to them, yet they still HATE them. Unless you are a rich, white, conservative christian, the right has "railed" against you at one point or another.

You don't see the right do that? Are you blind and deaf? Tell you what... turn on Fox News right now, and count how many seconds it takes before they are "railing" on someone.

The use of drones is inclusive, irrespective of persons and without apology. Great faith is placed in it by the administration.

For all you Lutherans that have posted you must be proud being a member of a church founded by one of the most vicious anti-Semites in history, someone that Hitler looked up to.

Thank goodness the Muslims are so tolerant of Christians, well when surrounded by them in this country anyway. lol The carpet jockeys declare a holy war on Christians, Americans in general, Jews, England etc.etc.etc and the idiots in this country are up in arms because one religion asked for an apology for something from onre of their own. I guess if the Lutherans declared a holy war and called for beheadings the posters here would be telling us we need to be more multi-cultural and embrace them. lol

mguy- Are you being deliberately obtuse? Or are you just dumb?

#1) I said I DO NOT LIKE CONSERVATIVES. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT WHAT THEY DO. I AM TALKING ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON IN THIS THREAD.

I don't know what I need to do to make your brain understand that. There aren't any people from the "right" here belittling someone for having different beliefs, so that's not what I am talking about. I am talking about belittling people for having faith, no matter what it is.

#2)

The right doesn't normally rail against bigotry. That's why I find it more repugnant when it comes from the left than I do from the right.

Have you been missing for the past 4 years?

The right "rails" against EVERYBODY who they deem as unworthy or un-christian. The right "rails" against women who use birth control, calling them sluts. The right "rails" against women who became pregnant from rape, claiming that they were not really raped because their body has a magical way to "shut it down". The right "rails" against homosexuals every single god damn day..

Exactly, dummy. You DON'T HEAR THE RIGHT RAIL AGAINST BIGOTRY, BUT YOU DO HEAR THE LEFT RAIL AGAINST BIGOTRY, WHICH MAKES IT MORE REPUGNANT WHEN THE LEFT SHOWS IT. BECAUSE I EXPECT IT FROM THE RIGHT. I expect liberals, who claim to support civil rights, including the First Amendment, to not be bigots. That's why it is disturbing when I see it. Does yelling it make you understand, or do I need to put it a different way again?

You can go on and on all you want about what you don't like about the "right". It has absolutely NOTHING to do with what I said. Just because the right shows bigotry doesn't make it ok for the left to do it.

I didn't say one f*ckin thing about the right railing against anything. Nor did I say it was proper or right for them to do so. You are really good at setting up totally unrelated straw men and beating them down. It was railing against bigotry. Tell me the last time you saw someone on the right complain about bigotry. It's no wonder we can't have any constructive conversation in this country. Your hate just oozes out of you in every word you say. No one from the other side is ever going to listen to you. You can't even comment on the topic at hand without telling me that the other side does it too. Ok, good. Too bad I wasn't talking about the other side. I was talking about leftists showing bigotry in THIS THREAD. That's it.

someone needs to tell these people about love thy neighbor. Other religions are your neighbors to. God would be seriously offended that his minister was corrected and made to apologize for helping anyone at a horrible time like this. The Lutheran leaders should be ashamed. He should not apologize, he should find a better religion, or better yet, do what I did, seperate from organized religion and deal with God myself. It works great for me.

This reminds me of the South Park episode where it was revealed that Mormons were the right faith and everyone else was going to hell.

I mean, seriously think about that...you're a christian, and you've chosen this faith or that...

and one false choice...and BOOM, all your believing and praying and doing good is all for naught.

People think im crazy for not believing in any religion or faith...and not even sure if GOD exists or not.

We're all rolling the dice people...you all just seem to have the arrogance to believe you're dead right.

I guess we'll see wont we?

Hey Pastor..... got some news for you.... God doe not practice any religion..... God is God....

#1.2 williamofrites - I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. - Mahatma Ghandi.

Please. If you are going to quote this great man - yet AGAIN for the umpteenth time (we all know what he said), please at least spell his name right. It's Gandhi, and not Ghandi.

carnley - based on my readings of the bible, thats how GOD wants you to do it.

Matthew 6:5-6 “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you."

Maybe I am not reading it correctly, but how else do you take this as anything less than a condemnation of religions and churches/synagogues?

REPORT #1.99 Aleksey Bobov POST TO SITE MODERATOR. THIS ASSH*&% IS ADVERTISING A SCAM!

But have you ever been to a Lutheran church before? I tried it once. I was not comfortable and could not wait to leave and never been back. If you are comfortable with it then good for you. If you are not sure since you never attended then stop by and check it out to make your own opinion. I thought they were over the top - just like Southern Baptists (in which I was raised and disowned MANY years ago while still a child.) Too bad that this pastor does not have the balls to make decisions on his own especially participating and trying to help in a multiple shooting tragedy. You really might want to question your own faith.

If you don't believe, fine. But that doesn't give you the right to belittle another person or group. That's called bigotry

Which is exactly what the Lutheran Church engages in when they refuse to participate in interfaith prayer.

The leaders of this so-called church can use whatever emotions they "feel" are correct to support this nonsense, but the fact of the matter is, such an act is so un-Christian (hmmmm....much like the papal indulgences that caused Luther to flee and establish this church in the first place?)

These religious leaders who are so righteous in their furthering of human-created, political issues will have to answer to God one day for their idolization of ideals and values created by men.

Much like your comment John. You may "feel" that you must go to church to visit with God, but I believe you will find more passages in the Bible that speak to God and Jesus being present in everything and all people that believe then you will passages saying they can only be found in a church. But you go ahead like most people nowadays and peddle your "feelings" as truth. This is exactly why you completely ignored Jessica's quote of scripture, and instead focused on your narcisstic fabrication of what the truth is and how others must see it, lest they be damned...according to you. Sounds like someone is trying to exercise a scant bit of judgment that true Christians would leave to God.

DOCJT- no it isn't what the Lutheran Church is doing. They aren't belittling anyone. Presumeably these are their sincerely held beliefs... that belief being something along the lines that non-Lutherans and Lutherans cannot pray together because the church feels they believe in different gods. Regardless of whether you and I agree with this, it is not our business, nor is it the business of the media. In addition, what they do or what you think they are doing is none of our concern. They aren't hurting anyone. If they want to be myopic about the world then we should allow them to do it in peace. There isn't anything wrong with talking to them in person and trying to understand them and even change their minds, but denigrating an entire group of people for something that was probably half-reported to begin with is uncalled for.

In addition, just because you feel they are doing something doesn't give anyone the right to do the same in return.

Well, considering their sect of Christianity was begun by a man of questionable moral fabric, I'd say it is slightly condescending, at the least, to claim the Christian God of Lutheranism is different enough from the God of other Christian sects (my this sounds SO ridiculous) that they cannot pray together. I'd say any faith that feels belittled by this mindset would have every reason to feel that way.

My wife was raised Lutheran, and was raised to believe Catholicism was a hoax because they worshipped Mary more than Jesus and God. If this is the kind of mentality rife within that church, then I also have an opinion about which sect is worshipping the wrong Christian God.

Any time a group informs their members that their particular brand of belief in Jesus the Christ is the one true only faith and that anyone who does not believe as they do, you end up with religious dictators.

The only fortunate thing in the United States is that the men who wrote our Constitution quickly required that the issues of religious belief are not part of political system.

The alternative would be that we would likely be existing in a theocracy, similar to about 70% of the countries in the middle east.

Disgusted - It's fine to have an opinion, and it's perfectly fine to think that someone or some group is wrong. What's not perfectly fine is to tell them that through hate-filled words. Telling people that they are idiots for worshipping a fairy tale or even for just believing in a fairy tale accomplishes nothing. If you aren't trying to accomplish something, then why are you speaking? Lutheranism is on the decline, at least in the United States, and I really don't think that people felt denigrated by the posthumous, internal reaction of the Lutheran Church.

Most non-Orthodox churches believe that is wrong to pray to saints or Mary. A Jew or Muslim and even some Buddhists would tell you that it is wrong to pray to Jesus. But as long as they aren't hurting anyone I don't see why any of them should be the objects of contempt.

Bigotry only breeds more bigotry, and hate only breeds more hate. Have you ever heard of Megan Phelps-Roper? She was what many considered to be the "Poster Child" for the Westboro Baptist Church. She was responsible establishing an internet and social media presence for the WBC. About three months ago, at the age of 27, she left the WBC, taking her younger sister with her. By her own admission, it was her friendships with people like Kevin Smith and conversations with an Israeli Jew, of all people, that helped her to realize that what she was doing was horribly wrong. They reached her because they approached her, not with hate, but with a desire to try to understand where she was coming from. The WBC might seem big, but there are only about 35 members. Many believe that her leaving is the first death knell for the WBC. Had those people approached her with hate it would have only caused her to hate even more. That's how you have to get to people if you want change. You need to try to understand where they are coming from. You don't have to agree with it, and you don't need to agree with something to understand it. But mocking them is not the answer. You can do that in private.

I think the variety of religous beliefs in our culture is beautiful. The vast majority of adherents are peaceful people who have no ill-will for others. At least, not any more ill-will than what most secularists have. Belief in a higher power has helped millions of people through terrible things like addiction or the death of loved ones that they would never have had the strength to overcome if they thought they were alone in the fight. Just as Muslim terrorists do not speak for the majority of Muslims, the Lutheran church does not speak for the majority of the followers of Christ. Some people just speak more loudly than others.

All that being said, this was still a private matter for them and should have never become public. I don't know how it did become public, but anyone who is dissatisfied with the doctrine of a particular church is free to leave that church and find one with a doctrine that suits them.

Chief Red Jacket, Seneca of the Iroquois Confederation 1805:

You say you are sent to instruct us how to worship the Great Spirit agreeably
to his mind, and if we do not take hold of the religion which you white people
teach, we shall be unhappy hereafter. You say that you are right, and we are
lost; how do we know this to be true? We understand that your religion is
written in a book; if it was intended for us as well as you, why has not the
Great Spirit given it to us, and not only to us, but why did he not give to our
forefathers the knowledge of that book, with the means of understanding it
rightly? We only know what you tell us about it. How shall we know when to
believe, being so often deceived by the white people?

Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit;
if there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it?
Why not all agree, as you can all read the book?

Brother, we do not understand these things. We are told that your religion
was given to your forefathers, and has been handed down from father to son. We
also have a religion which was given to our forefathers, and has been handed
down to us their children. We worship that way. It teacheth us to be thankful
for all the favors we receive; to love each other, and to be united. We never
quarrel about religion.

Brother, the Great Spirit has made us all; but he has made a great difference
between his white and red children; he has given us a different complexion, and
different customs; to you he has given the arts; to these he has not opened our
eyes; we know these things to be true. Since he has made so great a difference
between us in other things, why may we not conclude that he has given us a
different religion according to our understanding. The Great Spirit does right;
he knows what is best for his children; we are satisfied.

Brother, we do not wish to destroy your religion, or take it from you; we
only want to enjoy our own.

Brother, you say you have not come to get our land or our money, but to
enlighten our minds. I will now tell you that I have been at your meetings, and
saw you collecting money from the meeting. I cannot tell what this money was
intended for, but suppose it was for your minister; and if we should conform to
your way of thinking, perhaps you may want some from us.

Brother, we are told that you have been preaching to the white people in this
place. These people are our neighbors; we are acquainted with them; we will
wait, a little while and see what effect your preaching has upon them. If we
find it does them good, makes them honest and less disposed to cheat Indians, we
will then consider again what you have said.

Brother, you have now heard our answer to your talk, and this is all we have
to say at present. As we are going to part, we will come and take you by the
hand, and hope the Great Spirit will protect you on your journey, and return you
safe to your friends.

(The white Christians refused to shake the hand of the Indians, called them "devils" and angrily left the meeting which had been called for the purpose of converting them to Christianity)

If anyone really wonders why we cant get along, just look closely at this bull@!$%#, one church has to apologize to it's hypocrishioners for praying with "other types of hypoligeous people"? How can diverse communities of ethnically different people coexist if the supposed brothers and sisters of all Gods people cant even pray together?

I have yet to meet a religious person that wasn't a blatant, judgemental hypocrite. I live my life more honestly, caring and forgiving of others than 90% of church goers and I never go to church. ANY God that tells me to judge my neighbor for any reason is a God that can piss off. If you need to read a book to know whats right, you likely aren't smart enough to implement those lessons anyhow.

Shame on you people. when the creator comes back and sees how you people have bastardized the wisdom left behind, poof, you're gone! Then we can have peace on Earth. As usual, this is just my opinion. If you disagree, that's 100% o.k. with me, I promise.

Thanks for making my point perfectly. Keep on calling names and being a bigot. You'll win many people to your way of thinking.

You all really should take the time to read Chief Red Jacket's words to the missionaries.

If you don't feel humbled and ashamed when you finish, there is no hope for your souls.

screminmimi I don't think anyone would not be ashamed by that. But you need to wonder how long the sins of our ancestors are going to be held against the current generation. Most Christians, just like people of other faiths, do not proselytise. Prior to the middle of the nineteenth century, conversion of other peoples was the official policy of most governments in Europe. We can't do anything about that now.

This just HORRIFIES me! My grandfather was a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church minister and he PIONEERED interfaith services during trying times. What these jerks are doing DESECRATE his memory!

This was supposed to be about the children's funerals and not about which religion was better. I can understand that some members of his congregation felt like he was comprising his beliefs, but most of them were out of line. Again this was about the children's funerals, and the congregation should have shown more compassion. It was not the time to start a religious debate.

I would have to agree with their statements however, that to portray that there are many ways to heaven is what will get you into trouble.

"There is sometimes a real tension between wanting to bear witness to Christ and at the same time avoiding situations which may give the impression that our differences with respect to who God is, who Jesus is, how he deals with us, and how we get to heaven, really don't matter in the end," Harrison wrote.

A very true statement.

The only apologies this man owes are to God and to the victims of Sandy Hook and their families who must feel deserted in their hour of greatest need. While he's at it, he might as well get rid of that collar, since he's no man of God. Jesus was willing to endure persecution and ridicule to render comfort to those in need. It takes much more to be a man of God than to wear a collar and pass a collection plate. Too many Christians have forgotten that a long time ago.

I wouldn't go that far, Westboro is hateful and insane..slightly inbred as well. This is ignorance and apparently this pastor followed his heart to attend the Sandy Hook service and Lutheran church came down on him for doing so. sadly he should have should his ground and left the church as a statement.

Me either. The Westboros are not a church, they are a hate group.

No the LCMS needs Pastor Morris to stay. I am an LCMS Lutheran, but you can only change an institution from the inside. Since that night I have viewed a couple of Pastor Morris's sermons online. He is a gifted pastor and much better than the pastor at my local church in Illinois.

"stay.... you can only change an institution from the inside."

....except if you're RCC

RWEvans- easy for you to say; this is the guy's job.

I was raised Lutheran (kinda). Studied hinduism, buddhism, christianity and a host of spiritual/religious organizations as a person very curious about spirituality. And, I found that everything from your local mega church to scientology, are all premised on two fundamentally (no pun intended) flawed premises: 1. that only their teachings are the real "truth" and 2. you have to appeal to a person's dark side, i.e. propensity to judge, fear, insecurities, and even capacity to hate, in order to control you flock. And yes, you are being controlled by men just as flawed as yourself who have no better information about your relationship with your creator than you have.

The white mans gods love sucks.

The policy of the Lutheran church is and has been so ridiculous over time, it's been parodied in comedy films - like this scene from 1980's "Caddyshack":

Bishop: I really enjoy working with young people such as yourself down at our new Lutheran Center... Why don't you drop by sometime, eh?
Danny Noonan: I've often thought of entering the Priesthood.
Bishop: Oh, are you a Roman Catholic?
[Danny nods]
Bishop: Oh, then I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you can't come.

My dog wears a collar too and knows more about love, compassion and devotion than most of these religious assclowns. Apologizing for giving comfort to shooting victims families because the ceremony was interfaith? Unforgiveable.

I don't know about unforgiveable - that MO Synod leader asks for no forgiveness - the jerk, but I do very much pity the pastor Morris. Hope he is getting his resume together, and tells the other guy to jump off.

I'm going to start a new religion for the expressed purpose of pitying all the other religions... I'll be wealthy in no time!

We will pity them with an open heart and pray that they see the one true widget God that we are privy to... We will charge them on an ongoing basis for an introduction and very, very slowly allow them to become friends... For we are the keepers of the one true God and no one shall know him but through us... See the literature for the current "donation" scale. Our one true God says thanks in advance, here's a signed photo of him suitable for framing. We are a 501c3 tax status organization.

All religions have their beliefs, their enforcers, their believers, and those who live by principle rather then ridiculous rules written in stone. (pun intended) I was born and raised a Catholic and my children were baptized in the Catholic Church. One is now an agnostic, 2 are Catholic, one is a member of a small Ecumenical sect, and the last has tried various religions. (I'm not sure what she practices now, only that it is Christian.) I have no problem with this, since they are adults and have all done their own questioning, praying, and gone with what they felt fulfilled their needs. I continued to basically follow the Catholic Church, but there are a number of their practices I do not subscribe to.

For 5 years, I worked for our parish, preparing the bulletin, doing computer entry and pulling up data, doing mailings, etc. Then, about 8 years ago, we were given a new pastor. He literally hated the priest he replaced. Because I stood up for him, I was on the new priest's list, too. At one point, I made a joking comment and was told, "That man is not welcome on this campus under any circumstances!"

Within two years, my position was eliminated, which I had anticipated. I moved to a different city and am still looking for a church with which I am comfortable. While still following basic Catholic principles in most things, I will be much more selective in my choice.

All churches have their beliefs and rules, but there are good and bad in all of them, as in all aspects of life. It is generally the bad who draw attention and give organized religion a bad name.

Well put. Not exactly the Lutheran church of A Prairie Home Companion, is it?

Just want to emphasize that this is from the Missouri Synod, which though they share the "Lutheran" distinction, is completely separate from the Evangelical Lutheran Church, which encourages unity among all Christians.

Jen - 995113

Just want to emphasize that this is from the Missouri Synod

I thought so, but didn't research it. The Missouri Synod is dominated by a few, and about as restricted as the Baptists. It is more of a reactionary group. This is clearly not what Christ had intended. He was to be the head of the church, not an individual or two.

The separation of the Missouri Synod in 2009 is somewhat misrepresented. The Missouri synod always had differences with the main body, but the whole story is that the Evangelical Luthern Church made a further shifting form the teachings of Christ, Not the Missouri Synod. If I am not mistaken it was over admitting actively practicing homosexuality to be in church positions. The Missouri Synod rejected the change and withdrew. Also not stated clearly at the time was that many other churches also left the ELCA including the Wisconsin Synod. Many of these churches have begun banding together into a new Luthern church organization.

My mom was a devout Luthern, and was well studied in both the old and new testament. When this change in policy occured in 2009, she told me she was considering going to another church.

I want to make one thing clear. Being a homosexual does not preclude you from going to church in any way. It is the continuing the practice in this serious sin that is not acceptable, just as continuing in prostitution and infidelity are not acceptable. The concept is to go to church to help you stop doing what you are doing wrong, and help you understand when you are doing things wrong, so you don't have to do them anymore.

RE Prairie Home Companion, I am so glad I am a member of " Our Lady of Perpetual Guilt Catholic Church" at least we have heart most of the time

DBAkron,

to group homosexuality, prostitution and infidelity together shows quite clearly how out of touch your faith is.

I'm used to seeing a whole lot more vapid debate on the vine, especially on topics like this one. But I have to say this seems pretty lopsided to one side, to the detriment of the integrity of the Lutheran church. This is one more example of the crumbling infrastructure witnessed in modern religious organizations: The sheep have awakened and realized they are not the sheep; they are the wolves. The good shepherds apparently have yet to discover this fact; along with the fact that they are made of meat.

Ok let me get this straight. They can not pray for slain children unless there are no other religions praying for them in the area but they can consider gay pastors. Sounds a little screwy to me.

To stop any confusion, I am a member of a Lutheran church and we have had many discussions about whether or not we would be ok with gay pastors in the church.

DBAkron - you are incorrect. LCMS (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod), WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod) and ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church of America) have always been distinct synods. LCMS did not break away from ELCA as they were never part of it. The ELCA was created when the ALC (American Lutheran Church) and the LCA (Lutheran Church of America) came together back in the 1980's (or thereabouts). What you are referring to is that several member churches of the ELCA broke away when they started allowing homosexual pastors back in 2009 or so. Basically, a lot of member churches had individual voting that they could no longer be part of the ELCA. I don't even think they formed their own synod but just came independent but I'm not positive on that.

It is true that LCMS is more conservative than ELCA. WELS is definitely the most conservative. My brother-in-law was not allowed to sing in his cousin's wedding because he was not a member of the church. LCMS does not allow women to be Pastors or Elders but they can usually serve in most other functions. WELS does not allow women to do anything more than serve coffee and cookies. ELCA essentially allows anyone to do anything.

Sounds like they're thinking "testify" means CONVERT.......... Christ never asked anyone to CONVERT the sinners, He said to testify........

want to make one thing clear. Being a homosexual does not preclude you from going to church in any way. It is the continuing the practice in this serious sin that is not acceptable, just as continuing in prostitution and infidelity are not acceptable. The concept is to go to church to help you stop doing what you are doing wrong, and help you understand when you are doing things wrong, so you don't have to do them anymore.

are you seriously trying to compare homosexuality with prostitution and infidelity? do you not understand that people do not just wake up one day and choose to become homosexual? homosexuality is as much a part of who a person is as the color of their eyes and the size of their feet--it is predetermined from birth.

I could tell my cousin was gay by the time he was 4 years old. a dear friend of mine was so conflicted and ashamed upon realizing that she was gay that she joined a convent. (she later left the order) suicides among gay teens are 3X higher than among hetero teens, and people like you sure don't help. it is not a choice and no amount of your "christian" judgement will ever change that

you can't pray the gay away.

@Gumps I 'm glad you highlighted that one for all to be clear under what mode he apologized Smart he put it very smart,but I believe the narrow minded clerical heard the word apologizing and there you go it's taken.

A man with true moral conviction would not be apologizing for participating in an interfaith service; a real man would be apologizing for being associated with an organization whose very bi-laws dismiss completely and thoroughly the ideals and teachings of Jesus Christ.

The Missouri Synod has around 2.4 million members. It's not going away soon unless the rapture occurs. While there are serious leadership issues with this church and some doctrines that are clearly stricter than what Christ intended, they still are a church professing Christ.

Scripturally speaking what they do right or wrong is God's to correct, in his time.

The Missouri Synod has around 2.4 million members. It's not going away soon unless the rapture occurs

And probably not even then....

What a bunch of Clowns are on this chat, you cannot blame the Pastor or the Synod for this, in these supposedly 'all faiths' services, it can be seen as being present as being supporting each religion, that is the line in the sand that CANNOT be crossed for a true believer, according to the Bible it's either with ME or against ME, no middle ground. You can be sure God does not supprt any of satans lies about false religions. We are told to be aware of false teachers and keep them away from teaching to the elect. For all you Clowns who just don't like Biblical dogma, you will find out soon enough, just remember, if Christ did not rise from the grave, how then did the early Church grow as they were persecuted for their faith and leaving the known Jewish system of offerings,etc? There HAD to be EVIDENCE that made them believe. Again, I suggest you Clowns ask Jesus to reveal Himself to you tonight it He is for real, what do you have to lose, only your eternal soul in eternal punishment.

you cant save all people from themselves.

sam - When you're ready, I'd like to introduce you to the real Jesus Christ. Its clear you don't know Him.

i do not believe in god. Yet I will give this pastor respect. He was representing HIS faith, not diluting it. As long as there are about 32,000 sects, denominations, splinter groups, and offshoots of Christianity who is to say only one branch of Lutherans got it right? What the church did to this pastor (and his taking it without a peep) is an argument for atheism, or at least questioning the ethics of religion. The Lutherans aren't the only denomination who would do this.

Rick's Real----Think you are real. A real man --Oh what the heck, you wouldn't comprehend what I write anyway.

religion is the root of all evil

well said theapeman well said

Kathleen,

Churches do need to consider carefully what they do and do not participate in. The church does not want the minister to accidentally compromise their image of Christ or be seen representing something the church is not about. That is understandable, but this Synod perhaps needs to be a little more trusting of their pastors judgement.

DB Akron - What is ironic here is that LCMS itself compromised Christ's image and represents something that Jesus is not about. The powers that be in the LCMS have no discernment.

They seem to forget what it's all about. ( Love and compassion) Would Christ agree with that, or would he be more concerned with "what the church was representing" Think about it. It was nice to see them all together.

DB Akron....are you saying a trained minister is not qualified to represent his own church's beliefs? Religion has always been a marketplace for ideas - what does his church have to hide? Is it possible for a clergyman to singly 'harm the brand' at a prayer meeting? The church's standoffish-ness is one reason the pews are emptying out. How about the value of one sect engaging in a positive manner to benefit a community? Disgusting.

This whole discussion brings to mind a joke I saw some years ago:

A young man died and went to heaven. After meeting with St. Peter, it was determined that he had indeed lived a righteous life and deserved to be in heaven. (His denomination not disclosed.)

Then Peter took him on a tour. As they walked the halls, the doors were open and rooms were filled with various groups, enjoying each others' company, totally at peace, etc. Peter explained that the various denominations had their own areas. As they approached one room, the door was closed and the man was told to be quiet as they passed it. The man gave Peter a puzzled look. Peter replied, "Those are the Catholics. They think they're the only ones here."

To the Pastor....."sir, you have nothing to apologize for."

From the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod site:

Upon his election, Harrison asked for prayers and said he would “work as hard as I possibly can for unity around the clear and compelling Word of God and nothing else.”

EDITOR'S note: add "as interpreted by himself and no-one else".

Wow, this really shocks me! The man is chastised for participation in "joint worship with other religions."???

First, this wasn't a worship service.

Second, is this really the stance of the Lutheran Church?

Third, if this is the stance of the Lutheran church, what a close-minded doctrine not be able to participate in an interfaith service.

I'm all about freedom of religion, but this is a bit too 16th century IMHO. I don't really think this is what Martin Luther had in mind. I was raised in a southern Baptist household and I thought their doctrine was a bit atypical of general Christian beliefs.

And people wonder why I'm agnostic. :/

Zapain-

This is the stance of the Missouri Synod only, not Lutherans as a whole. The LCMS has a history of booting pastors that participate in 'multi-denominational observances/services'. This is EXACTLY why I left them 20 years ago. They have been doing it for DECADES. I cannot STAND the literal 'holier than thou' attitude of a bunch of old guys that think they are running things. I am quite certain that Martin Luther himself would be angry at this attitude. The man did not even want the religion to be named for him, he was simply looking for the Pope to see the error of his ways, but I digress.

Whether you choose to buy into organized religion or not, in a time of tragedy, the people in need of comfort that turn to religion for this don't need/want to be caught up in a bunch of theological/church politics hoo-ha.

I questioned the Synod exactly where the theological facts are that back up this asinine teaching, and I was pretty much told that it was my job to follow, not question. Ok, seeya bye bye.

Blindly following ANY religion (organized, not organized, Christ based, pagan) without question is at best foolish, at worst stupid on a dangerous level (can you say 'cult'?), and quite frankly contrary to our base human instincts. We are a species conditioned to question, and to do otherwise cannot be what we were designed for.

Pastor Rob Morris should not be sorry! There will be more than one religion in heaven. Sandy Hook citizens were grieving and still are grieving. We look to our Pastors for comfort in hard times and he did the right thing. Amen

@ Debbie......Amen again.

mtnmans4u - Your comment #9.3 is right on! I totally agree with you. And to Debbie and bambi --I'll give you another Amen!

How sad. I'd be looking for another church who does not forbid you for praying with other religions. I don't believe that is God's intention.

As a LCMS member, in my opinion, as long as the Pastor closed with "In Jesus name I pray" then it's fine. If he modified his prayer to make it very generic so as not to "offend" the other faiths present, then he is in the wrong for not following the doctrine. I'm assuming he prayed and asked for forgiveness and healing through Christ our Lord, in which case the LCMS is wrong. I love the Pastor of my particular church as he is quite progressive (for LCMS) as far as some of the "man-made" rules such as strictly adhering to only LCMS members receive communion. I'll have to ask him about this particular "rule" but I have a feeling that he would tend to agree w/ my initial comment.

Didn't know this was the policy of the Lutheran Church. Really sorry to hear that!

However, Luther is celebrated, but was a bigot and hateful person himself. He said that, all Jews in an area should be brought together, and put in barns and burnt to death. He was quoted and praised by Adolf Hitler, who called him "ahead of his time," for his views on the Jewish people. And this, is who the church is named after. No wonder, that it continues to preach bigotry and hatred.

zack L -- Luther got caught up in a wave of antisemitism that was sweeping Europe at the time. Three weeks after writing that scathing and hateful tract, he came out with another tract recanting what he had said in the earlier tract. In those 3 weeks after printing the first tract, he was consumed with guilt. Basically in the Christian belief we refer to that as conviction by the Holy Spirit. Luther's second tract admitted his wrong and then said that we are to treat Jewish people with kindness and compassion. But words are like a down pillow ripped open to the wind--you can never get all of them back. Hitler conveniently used the first tract and ignored the second tract. Another famous Lutheran - Dietrich Bonhoeffer - was sent to a concentration camp when he was caught trying to help 12 Jews escape from Germany. Three days before the camp was liberated, he was executed by the Nazis. He was also a part of the German Underground, and lived what he believed. He chose the second tract.

@mtnmans4u-- you said this "stance" was just the policy of the Missouri Synod only, I had no idea, that's why I posed the question of the Lutheran church as a whole. Thanks for clearing that up!

And as far as your experience with the LCMS, I had a similar one with the Southern Baptist private school I attended. Teachers found out that I was not "saved" and proceeded to berate me with statements such as "if you aren't saved, you'll burn in hell for eternity". I WAS ONLY 12 at the time, but I remembered when they gave a lecture on "freewill" so I asked them, "If god gave us freewill, then why would I be punished with eternal damnation by using this freewill and choosing not to be saved? Even if I was a good person and treated my fellow man well I would still burn in hell?" They proceeded to twist the "freewill" ideal into their own version and my questions didn't apply in this case.

No, he did NOT apologize for praying to God. He apologized "if I have caused offense." A very elegant solution that allows him to keep ministering to his Congregation, yet shows the Lutheran Church leadership to be the pompous buffoons they so clearly are. A very beautiful, loving, Christian response.

I am a LCMS Lutheran and I can honestly say that I don't like the direction P. Harrison is taking this church. A lot of the clergy don't seem to agree with him, but that doesn't matter. I watched the service the night it happened and I said to my husband that Pastor Morris would be the next Pastor in trouble with P. Harrison.

I felt that night that Pastor Morris handled the situation perfectly and I like the way he worded his response also.

Agree completely Quackbury101 and distancae. I'm assuming he still called upon the name of Jesus Christ in his prayer. I'm also a LCMS Lutheran and I know my Pastor would have no problem with what Pastor Morris did. He knew going in that he would be in trouble but handled it extremely well.

BMette,

First I agree with you.

I am not Lutheran. However, the Lutheran church that some family members go to is not part of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod is an offshoot of the Lutheran Evangelical Church. Just like you have Free Will Methodist and United Methodist. These are 2 polar opposite views in some matters. I agree that if you are Christian or Jew or Muslim you should be able to take part in an inner faith service. Just like there is a Southern Baptist and then you have the Westboro Church,( which is not a church that follows Christ), 2 totally different sects. The pastor is wrong to apologize for this.

It's not an offshoot per se. The Synod dates back to the 1850's or so. The ELCA is not even that old an organization (there used to be ALC and LCA).

Shiloh, I like your reference to "inner faith" (even if it was perhaps a mistake). I am not religious, but wouldn't it be nice if people had "inner" rather than "outer" faith?

You are correct. It was a typo but your point is valid. They are not the same church. I just do not understand why folks get upset if a pastor has a service with other leaders of different denominations.

It really didn't develop for that reason but it has evolved into that for many people. I agree with you wanting no part of such churches. I'm so sick of the pettiness of organized religions. I spent years trying to find a spiritual home. All I've found so far are self impressed, judgemental, hateful, snobby, money grubbing. Many people do many good things within churches but the churches themselves fall short of their own expectations of their followers. That includes traditional churches and "new wave" belief systems. I'm still looking occasionally, but have grown much more comfortable with my own relationship with the universe.

I disagree with you, sir. The Apostle Paul founded the religion by spreading the word about the MESSAGE, not the man. Constantine turned it into an institution, and it has been all downhill since then.

And yet somehow it has all become reversed so that we worship our idea of the MAN and ignore the MESSAGE. This story proves my point that free will is the bane of ALL religions.

Actually I think it was Paul that "created" the new religion -- far earlier than Constantine.

Canadian Jack, where is your historical evidence that Jesus (Yeshua) had a father named Joseph? As far as I know, religious texts are the only sources of that information.

Constantine is the one for choosing the books of the Bible.

Why do adults need to cling to fairy tales?

Enter abiogenesis. Fairy tales, indeed.

You may be seated.

And please remember that Paul was not one of the original twelve disciples. According to your Gospels, Peter was Christ's choice to spread his message, which was actually a reformation of the traditional Jewish faith, not a new religion. He followed all the laws and customs - He just gave them an avenue to heaven, which they did not have before.

"The way to hell is paved with good intentions", and Pastor Harrison's feet are getting mighty warm.

As a great British journalist (Bernard Levin) once said about the tendency of of kookie cults (in his example Trotskyists) to be riven by dissent: "Factions that are based on fictions, suffer from frictions and break into fractions"

Johnny, that is an excellent quote - love it.

Johnny: wonderful quote! Levin is/must have been a great wit in the Dorothy Parker/Ogden Nash mold.

Just copied that one into my quotes folder.

Proving that atheists can be just as hateful and bigoted as believers.

Just like I love it when atheists share theirs. Makes me even more comfortable with my decision.

Mary Baker--

Finding this news story to be amusing in it's irony does not equate to 'hateful and bigoted'...wow what a leap!

Can't believe I left out my own mother in my little diatribe! She was very religious an used to beat me on a regular basis. Broom handles were her tool of choice. I was her "child of the devil" as I was rebellious.

But you know what? I'm okay. My father was an angel - kind and gentle, but unfortunately only home on weekends. He only went to church on Easter and Christmas ---correlation?

Well it appears that political correctness has reached a new level. When it gets to the point that people can not grieve together and have prayers for each other no matter what "Religion" we are I think brings us as a world to a very low point. We have let so called "Religion" divide us to the point that our world is in the shape it is in today. Religious fanitics are why we are at war with each other in various parts of the world today. We may not always agree on various points but we should certianly be able to come together as human beings and console each other in any time of crisis or grievig process. When if ever do any of you ever think we will just see each other as human beings and not as some kind of label?????

Rev. Charles Phillips

Got to be a reality-based TV show in here somewhere, can I spend next Thanksgiving with you (wouldn't even mind being at the kiddie table)?

Enma3. Correlation does not automatically mean not causation

and why religious affiliation is in sharp decline in this country. If religion wants to make it in the 21st century, they'd better find a way to co exist with each other and modernize just a bit.

Non-affiliation is the fast growing, not "atheism" although it is a part of that category, the data is sketchy at best. Atheism still is in decline in comparison to the world-wide population. There is a lot to be debated.

The general stance of dogma the Lutheran leadership put forth isn't entirely wrong and I can even respect the goal it seeks to achieve. Losing members because of these stances isn't a negative thing. It's fairly clear the Lord could care less about how many Saints there are total.

My problem is the over-attention to Sandy Hook. Tragedies happen all the time world-wide, although I do not think one tragedy is greater than the next, if we were to compare the emotional response factor there are much more ghastly atrocities happening daily that never receive this much attention. I suspect the American culture of victimization is to blame. Our children are not more important than any other. This tragedy is being exploited for all sorts of evil.

The general stance of dogma the Lutheran leadership put forth isn't entirely wrong

My problem is the over-attention to Sandy Hook

You are one screwed up religious nutjob.

I never believed in God or belonged to an organized religion. I have so much respect for Atheists that I'd rather have someone call me a Nazi than an atheist. Atheists make wonderful Progressives simply because no one is more bigoted or hateful.

Atheists make wonderful Progressives simply because no one is more bigoted or hateful.

Every atheist I know is actively helping the victims of Sandy Hook and trying to prevent it from happening again.

Every "christian" I know is buying guns and ammunition to ensure it happens again.

Progressives and Democrats.

No such thing in the Koran--but they are against lying--apparently you aren't.

Christ would probably be hanging out w all the dregs and rejects, the ones the Church considers unfit for Heaven!!! Funny thing is that the Catholic church considers Protestants, all of them, heretics and doomed for breaking away from the True Faith!!! No one is going anywhere, we will rot once we die. And so what if we do???

The Catholic Church has not taught that since Vatican II. WWJD? He preached to everyone, provided saving grace to all.

Theword is you. Until you learn basic English stick to gubmint cheese.

ski, the word is actually 'you're'. Ye who are without (grammatical) sin may cast the first stone. That's it, lower it slowly to the ground. There ya go.

good point. Cough up the revenue.

That is simply lowering yourself to their level. Don't let crazy win.

Um the election is over and crazy won.

Please don't attribute one man's beliefs and doctrine to the entire religion.

Oops, makes me wonder if my Pastor of the Lutheran Church Mo. Synod knows this. He participates in things all the time with other religions.

Even the non-tolerant English kicked them the eff out back in the day!!!! They had enough of their nonsense, of course they landed on native soil and the rest is history!!!! If we could only ship them back to where they came from!!

They are the people that show up without being invited and p!ss on your candle! All those religions are nice havens for every degenerate and pervert, they are a bit too obsessed w sin, sounds like they are projecting all their dark desires!! Off w their heads!!