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Darrell Byers / Reuters
A crowd of Scouts, parents and supporters gather during a prayer vigil at the Boy Scouts of America headquarters in Irving, Texas, February 6, 2013.
Since the Boy Scouts of America announced last week that it may end its ban on gay Scouts and leaders, NBC News has received hundreds of emails from Scoutmasters, parents, Scouts and various church representatives sounding off on the issue. Some rejected lifting the exclusion of gays, others welcomed it and yet others called for more time to deliberate on the matter.
When the BSA said Wednesday that it would take more time to decide the issue, holding a vote on it in May, NBC received more email, as passionate as always, on one of America's most popular private youth organizations. A selection of the reader responses is included below:
“I am grateful that the Boy Scouts Executive Board had decided to take time to more carefully consider the future of the BSA and to facilitate a discussion with the National Council in May. I am still greatly concerned that an unyielding outside group is determined to force their views not only on BSA National but to bully their opinions over my and many other BSA chartering organizations 1st Amendment rights. The single minded agenda to have Scouting conform to their view or destroy it even when churches like mine have been very active in building, supporting and sustaining Scouting for 100 years is more than frustrating and feels more like I’m being persecuted for my beliefs. It is my hope that peace will be restored and that a different ‘Scouting’ organization can be organized so the Scouting program I have been part of for 14 years and has contributed so much good to this country can continue.”
-- Tristam Harrington, 50, Okemos, Mich. He is involved in Scouting through The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Courtesy of Nate Harrington
Tristam Harrington and his son, Nate, when he received his Life Scout rank in 2009.
“In the Scout Oath, every Scout promises to act with integrity -- that's what it means to be ‘morally straight.’ The Boy Scouts of America has a similar obligation to stay true to itself and its mission to help boys become honorable men. Although I think the compromise they suggested is a reasonable one, I don't begrudge BSA National taking extra time to make sure they are doing the right thing for Scouting.”
-- Karen Harrington, 54, wife of Tristam. Their son is an Eagle Scout
“Calming words from our council exec notwithstanding, this is already starting to look like a good old bare knuckles bar room brawl. In their attempt to appear reasonable, and attempt to dodge the bullet, our national executive board didn't realize they had opened Pandora's box. To put it mildly, this will put a serious strain on the institution. At worst, it will tear it so badly it may be the end of it … People think Boy Scouting, at only 2.7 million Scouts, somehow will continue to hold the mantle of our nation's boy-led, character building, outdoor loving, you name it, youth organization. At some point, the need for same will simply overtake the current institution, as a new one grows and ends up totally eclipsing them. Heaven help BSA if it validates the current policy in May. That'll be the end of 'Boy Scouts', at least until their new competitor drives them into bankruptcy and then quite possibly assumes the name again … They could have avoided this nasty internal fight, already taking place all the way down to the unit level, simply by making a principled stand for the future of Scouting. Alas, their courage escaped them.”
-- Steve Gates, Taos, N.M., Scoutmaster Troop 98
Jim Grace Photography
Steve Gates, Scoutmaster of Troop 98 in Taos, N.M., rowing a cataraft on a Scout trip.
“The strategic pause just announced by the National Committee is absolutely the right thing to do. Many of us volunteers were caught off guard by the sudden announcement of a vote on an issue this important to the core organization. Something of this significant a change calls for careful reflection and a thorough discussion with the membership and the chartering organizations … If the scouts were to lift the ban and incorporate this change, it should be done because it is the right thing to do. The core lesson we teach the youth in the Scouting program is that there is a creator, that the creator put us on the planet for a purpose, and that there is a moral compass that we should utilize to govern our lives. That moral compass is more important than money or peer pressure. I would strongly suggest that that moral compass should be applied to this forth-coming discussion and decision. If we make any changes to the core values of Scouting because of head-count pressure or corporate donors, than we are making this change for the wrong reasons. And we will have invalidated the message I have been espousing for ten years … We need to allow everyone the opportunity to participate.”
-- Terry Burke, 54, Collinsville, Ill., Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 1048
“I for one am excited and happy that the gay issue with BSA has been tabled, and the scouts are safe once again, for now. I do not nor will I accept a gay leader to lead and mentor my son, anywhere. Young boys minds are very impressionable. I'm not saying that gays would touch my son physically, but could effect him mentally. The family unit is being trodden down and torn apart … I say no, a Big no. Our scout (11 yrs old) will be receiving his Arrow of Light very soon, and leaving Cub Scouts in a few weeks to go into Boy Scouts. If gays are let in, he will NOT be continuing on in his Scouting, which is sad indeed. I'm sorry about the gays missing out on Scouting, but they knew what the standards where when they joined, Morally straight! This will destroy Scouting if it is allowed, soon they will want to make lots of changes, like taking God out too. Gay is gay and straight is straight. Enough is enough.
-- Linda Bergener, 60, Havelock, N.C., parent of a Scout
“My wife and I discussed this last night and we are both in continued disbelief that a decision on sanctioning discrimination ‘would require more discussion for all in Scouting.’ With that said, he (8-year-old son) is going to finish out the school year (in the Boy Scouts) and then we will reassess. I don’t think either of us feel particularly good about it or the organization as a whole, but having the discussion with our son in light of inaction on the part of the Scouts is a bit more abstract than if there had been a decision to point to. It feels like a cop-out and we are both very conflicted, but we aren’t going to do anything at this time.”
-- Zach Conen, Radnor, Penn. His son is in Wolf Den Pack 19. He has been considering removing his son over the ban.
“I earned my Eagle Scout award when I was 13 years old, though I was not openly gay at the time. I was also a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which you know is one of the largest religious supporters of BSA. … I am in full support of the change to allow gay members into the Boy Scouts of America, and I am quite disappointed that it is taking BSA and the LDS Church this long to realize their foolish policies. Whether they like it or not, BSA is full of gays though they may not be 'out', so their fears of boys being attracted to other boys and leaders to leaders etc., doesn't make much sense seeing that it is happening already.”
-- Tristan Schulthies, 22, student at Southern Virginia University
“The last line in the Boy Scout Oath says that Scouts will do their best to keep themselves morally straight. The left-leaning liberals in this world are tearing at the very moral fibers that have held this country together for nearly 250 years. Our elected leaders of late have bowed to those liberal pressures, allowing same-sex marriages and equal benefits for gays and lesbians. Morally, it’s not right and not what God intended for us. I applaud the Boy Scouts for resisting the pressure to allow gays into the program up until now. I hope, not only for the future of the Boy Scouts, but for the future of this country, that the ban is upheld. It’s time that someone shows some backbone and agrees with that last line of the Scout Oath, to keep the organization morally straight. Otherwise, they need to drop that part out of the Scout Oath since they will no longer be supporting a morally straight organization. That’s when I, as well as many other volunteer leaders, will also drop out.”
-- Stuart Lewis, 61, Knoxville, Tenn., Assistant Scoutmaster of Troop 15 in the Toqua District
“I write to you today to discuss my feelings on the National Council's decision to postpone their vote. In a word I am, devastated. The attention that is being brought to this organization, of which I've spent the last 16 years of my life in, is in no way beneficial to the youth involved. I have been a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, a Troop leader, and a camp counselor. Yet in all of that time the subject of sexual orientation has never come up. The sexual orientation of a child, or of an adult doesn't impact their ability to teach knots, or their desire to learn outdoor skills. I am ashamed to be associated with this organization. As a child in the program my leaders taught me acceptance and tolerance, The Scout law says friendly, not homophobic or hateful. I saw other Scouts who I went to school with leading double lives. They'd be with their boyfriends at school and then at Scouts that night, telling stories of their dates that weekend but being careful to make sure all the ‘he's’ came out as ‘she's’. I have gay friends and gay co-workers who I'm embarrassed to be around. It's awful to think that because I wanted to go camping as a child, I must bear title of homophobe. I believe that the National Council is on the wrong side of history. This discussion will be looked back at the same way we look at the pictures taken outside of the University of Alabama in 1963, or of those showing segregated water fountains.”
-- Andrew Coleman, 22, Eagle Scout, Fitchburg, Mass.
Related:
Boy Scouts on edge as they await decision on gays
After years of heartache, gay Scouts and supporters react warily over proposal to lift ban
'Gravely distressed': Religion looms large over Boy Scouts decision on gays
'BATTLESTATIONS!': Call-in war waged over Boy Scouts' ban on gays
If you are a current or former member of the Boy Scouts and would like to share your thoughts on how your troop, pack or council is handling the BSA's decision on the membership policy, you can email the reporter at miranda.leitsinger@msnbc.com. We may use some comments for a follow-up story, so please specify if your remarks can be used and provide your name, hometown, age, Boy Scout affiliation and a phone number.
Leave a Comment:
There is no need for this bizzare change. Don't ask don't tell worked for a million yrs. Have the gays find another circus to attend. There is no need for this. MG!
BSA is indeed a circus, Gary - and it has been so for years. Continued exclusion, paranoia, and social intolerance will only serve to accelerate its already substantial erosion as a viable organization for young men. And allowing host churches to dictate daily BSA policy can only complicate the matter all the more. After all, we are our brother's keeper, are we not? So why do all the God-fearing TeaPubs who typically run the BSA show never, ever manage to comprehend this notion?
Simply it is these God-fearing people who built this organization over the past 100 years 1st Amendment rights. If this was a Non-Alcoholic or Vegetarian organization why would anyone think it would be acceptable to force it to allow people who consume alcoholic beverages or meat to be part of it. Why would this cause them to think anything different about the members of the group just because they didn’t agree with drinking alcoholic beverages or eating meat since they are free to establish their own organization since I’m not saying anything about those who do partake just that having people who are partaking is not conducive to achieving the goals, atmosphere or beliefs of the members of the organization. Stop being a Thug and start your own organization. As my wife said your sexual preference does not trump my religious beliefs.
The difference, Tristam, is that a gay Boy Scout cannot change his orientation anymore than a black Boy Scout can change his skin color, whereas an alcoholic or a vegetarian have chosen to be so.
If you can't see that difference, then you definitely should not be teaching anyone else about morals.
As for your religious beliefs, if they are your moral guide, then you should definitely stay away from children. Have you read The Bible? The Bible condones incest, rape, slavery, murder, genocide, fratracide, and misogyny, among other horrors. If The Bible is where you get your morals, then you have the morals of any average Taliban member.
Simple solution...... new Rainbow merit badge......
No, but the civil rights involved in sexual orientation does. Your religious beliefs do not and cannot be allowed to deny civil rights to another individual. The BSA is not a religious organization or church, irrespective that many of their original founding ethics and principles are based on a religious source. The first amendment guarantee of religious freedom does not trump the other rights enumerated in the constitution.
Bigotry, whether rationalized by historical momentum or religious edict is still bigotry. When you can find no other factual excuse for wanting to ban gays from the Scouts except for your chosen religious beliefs, your argument fails the test of constitutionally guaranteed equal rights.
Slavery did too, but surely you won't argue that it was acceptable.
I'll tell you what. If any son of mine was going camping with homosexuals I would immediately remove him from that organization. Already, do you have any idea how the boys are telling dirty jokes about homos right now? This is a tradition of boys anyway. What fun they are going to have making fun of their homosexual scout masters.
So...... is the scout supposed to "come out" now? Prepubescent children do not know what sexualiy they are. How about don't ask don't tell, it has worked just fine.
Those who are gay should just start their own group instead of expecting everyone else to change. This will only cause conflict and confrontations in every group and taking away that what makes these groups a good thing. No one is saying that they cannot start a group called "The Gay Scouts". Too bad they spent all this money (from legal fee's) on something that will riun this program and end in utter failure. For the same reasons that the "Gays" do not want to start their own group, those who are "Not Gay" will pull out. I guess for the short term, the "Gay group" hopes to take over the groups assets and hopefully keep the group afloat until the group can make it while those who are Not Gay" must start over from scratch should the "Gays" win. What is more upsetting is the fact that this issue is even an issue.
@ Fawna
Don't ask, don't tell, where a certain segment of the population was forced to lie or at least not tell the whole truth in order to get by. Is that what you want?
You sure have some messed up morals if you want people to be dishonest.
Notice how its all old people who are against progress. Gotta stamp your feet and be crusty, huh? Your wildly anachronistic views are dying with you, and I couldn't care less how "persecuted" you feel. If the BSA doesn't change with the times, it deserves to be minimized and crushed into nothing. Then a tiny hitler-youth like White Christian scouts of The Church and a reorganized modern BSA can be born. Then you can go on preaching to your youth how the only people worthy of life are white christian straight homeschooled and rich, while the rest of the children can be raised to the standards of modern civilization.
All this shows is the number of delusional bible-thumpers in the Scouts...I am sure they are all praying about it to the invisible man in the sky that never answers...
You've never met a gay have you?
I've met many, and you wouldn't even know they were gay unless they told you. Back in high school all the guys (including the gay ones) all changed together after Gym class. It was never an issue. Not once. Why you choose to make it one, I will never understand.
Gary, get rid of your blatant bigotry before you post on this forum. Or leave, and go to Rush's, Glenn's, and Faux's web sites and post all you want. Your kind is most welcome there! But NOT here.
I'm freakin amazed at the number of people saying how screwed up the scouts are and that they are so far out of the mainstream thinking. Then why would you want to be a part of a group that you have so much animosity for. I'm not the least bit concerned with the religious aspect of the scouts since I think all religions are just a bunch of people trying to use fear in order to control groups of individuals who normal common decency is incapable of doing. However, this is a private institution with preset guidelines that you choose to abide by or find another group to join. Who knows maybe you can find one you don't have so much animosity for. But until the US government starts supplying funds to the BSA they need to stay out of how things are run.
@ troy1960
The U.S. government does supply funds to The Boy Scouts of America; the Boy Scouts are a 503C organization, which means they do not pay taxes.
The Boy Scouts of America can remain bigots as far as I'm concerned, but they and the churches where they have their meetings must immediately have their 503C status yanked by the Feds.
I've never quite understood why gays have such an obsession towards joining the scouts. Why would they insist on forcing themselves on people that hold differing beliefs regarding lifestyle and sexual orientation? An agenda?
Yes, Boy Scouts have a right to have any rules they would like (as long as no tax payer funding is provided). SCOTUS ruled in their favor. BUT this is NOT infringing upon their 1st Amendment rights as the change is coming from WITHIN the organization. The government is NOT saying they have to change (in fact, just the opposite) so this has nothing to do with the 1st Amendment. You should note that the 1st Amendment says that CONGRESS (extended to be the government) cannot make a law infringing upon religion.
However ... since some troops DO receive tax payer funding, albiet indirectly, by using government facilities to meet, I'm not totally supportive of the SCOTUS decision. I would be if they all met in private facilities.
This does not mean I condone the exclusion of gays, it means that people have the right of free association ... as long as there is no taxpayer funding involved.
I don't think you can force attitude change. Change the "rules" and when most people realize the world will not come to an end, the attitudes will change.
How is a boy going to reconcile a his scoutmaster one day with the same person marching in a gay pride parade wearing a leather thong the next day. I understand the vast majority of gays do not go to this extreme but once the gate is open how do we control who is let in?
@Fawna
Well you had better remove your son from that organization now, I can guarantee there will be boys who are gay out there with your son.
@Tristam
Through out this you have obviously forgotten a couple of things, do you propose a 6 year old when he joins mention if he thinks he is gay or not so the BSA can then block him membership?
Yep you and many others have forgotten we are talking about young boys here who join before they even know what sex is, and yet you would happily throw them out after years of hard work for nothing more than being gay. This is heartless and rather unchristian.
DO you also propose that straight children with gay parents also be barred? Regardless of what you think and the BSA-HQ thinks there are many BSA groups that allow gay parents and scouts be productive members and live up to the scouting oath.
It all comes down to the kids, and making some feel alienated just becasue of who they will be attracted to when they mature is despicable.
When does the right to choose become bigotry? The gay community is very noisy,we all hear you.The gay community never shrinks from promoting not only gay rights ,but gay lifestyle.Why would a straight parent want their impressionable child to be mentored by those aggressively promoting a gay lifestyle?
I don't know how many commenters here are or were scouts and know that one of the rules taught to scouts is this. If you don't like a rule you still have to obey it but you can always ask that it be changed. The BSA is following this and they are taking their time as they should.
How you feel about this issue does not matter. The organization has rules and as a former Scout leader I have no problem with your sexual orientation but I don't want to teach someone else's child about it. If the rule was changed I would abide but the church that lets us use their facilities may not. As cut and dry as some people make this issue it is far from that.
If you are homophobic or just a crass moron making stupid comments, what is the threat to you that you have such a problem with it? How exactly does this affect your life? I have a voice in this matter because I would be directly involved with it but I am also adaptable. Those of you mudslinging because it's not socially acceptable to you or because of what your particular religion dictates need to step back and get youself educated or just flat out shut up.
Those of you that have supported the BSA by donating money or your time and those that have kids in the scouts are the only people that matter here. All of you that are here because you see "gay" in the headline and wanted to post your worthless views really need to find another hobby. Get together with the commenters that turn everything politcal and have a ball.
This is from Reuters, circa, 2011....don't know what's happened to these lawsuits....but
So, it appears, like all big organizations, BSA will not talk about this, and probably deny all liability just like Penn State, the military, Catholic Church, etc!
Sarita Shires
but your kind is ?
Everyone: Please read Krestov post at #1.19.
He/she makes a great point that boys enter scouts as children who don't understand sex and they are being forced out after years of hard work because of bigotry. It's a violation of the very creed that scouts is based on.
Wet Willy
Maybe the scouts should focus more on pedophiles in their leadership than homosexual children in their ranks.
Tristam.. so how were you and your son able to say the Boy Scout Oath since your family does not believe in god but worship the founder of your church, yes and right after the bubble gum trees flower your MAN LEADER will lead you away from us christians since you are not..
Then onto your statement.. SEXUAL PREFERENCE' .. so you believe that the homosexuals on the world CHOSE to be that way.. that makes you stupid. would you choose to be something that the likes of you bigots hate and abuse and attempt to destroy.. well you might since you are a MORMON.. but let me set you gayily straight it is SEXUAL ORientation.. so get that right..
It is religious zealots like you that believe you are always right.. Romney was your big mistake, those haters and bigots and racists among your family and church believe everything should revolve around church and state, how wrong is that.. your church gave more than 10 million to the neocons in Ca against prop 8.. there is a petition around right now to remove their tax free status.. because of that and many other violations
Andrew Coleman's quote in the article summed things up beautifully. As several people have said, gay boys are NOT clamoring to join Boy Scouts. They're already there, and they've always been there. When a boy joins Cubs at age 7, they don't know what their sexual orientation will be. All of you who suggest a "Gay Scouting" organization, at what age do boys decide they're on the "Gay Track" vs. the "Straight Track"? Do they get evaluated every year or two to determine if they are in the correct sexually oriented organization? If they're confused, do they switch back and forth between troops? This is not some outside liberal LGBT organization trying to force it's agenda on Scouts. There are many of us who regularly struggle with the decision to remain in the organization. My husband, brother-in-law, and son have all benefited greatly from their experiences, as has my daughter who is a Venturing scout. But we disagree with a policy that could force some boys in our troop to leave Scouting because of who they are. These boys are not sexually active, but they do know their orientation is different. They're not raping their troop mates now, and they won't if they're allowed to be honest about who they are. Sexual activity - homosexual OR heterosexual - does not belong in Scouts. Anyone engaging in such activity on a Scouting trip, or while in uniform needs to be thrown out. But don't tell me gay boys need to be thrown out because they're not morally straight until you throw out all the ScoutMasters who have committed adultery.....
This is just like back in the day with the feminist movement where a minority of women wanted in to men only clubs, etc. Why can't people just let people be? Why do minorities feel the need to FORCE themselves on the rest?
And look where we are now, AlexM. Thanks to feminists, we've moved a long way toward gender equality. This is why you work for change, instead of just leaving things as they are.
@ Captain Jack: "a gay Boy Scout cannot change his orientation anymore than a black Boy Scout can change his skin color, whereas an alcoholic or a vegetarian have chosen to be so."
That's a lie and I'm sick and tired of gays using blacks as their out! A black person cannot change their skin color however; it been proven over and over that a gay can change how they act on their feeling by choosing not to be gay. There are many former gays! It's a choice to act on feeling of any kind. We are all born a certain way but to make it an excuse to act out is wrong. That's the fundamental issue that's wrong with our culture today. No one is willing to take responsibility..instead liberals have made it ok to be anything you want. Outside of that the Scouts are a private organization...unless you believe in Communism....Butt out!
Monkey, You and Mr. Krestov need to get out more often.
Allegations of preschool oral sex shock parents | FOX6Now.com ...
fox6now.com/2013/.../allegations-of-preschool-oral-sex-shock-paren...
You +1'd this publicly. Undo
7 hours ago – ... alleges 4- and 5-year-olds at the First Lutheran Child Development Center in Carson, California, were performing oral sex on each other at ...
I glad to say and applaud, the time of the intolerant bigoted old white men/women fairy tale believing (insert your deity or dogma here) is over. If you’ve taught your children to hate how sad it is that you’ve condemned your children to the Mediocre life you've chosen. They too will be brushed aside in favor of the bright inclusive kid with a open mind. You are beaten politically, spirituality and overwhelmingly by a nation of enlightened people.
How sad for you!
"No, but the civil rights involved in sexual orientation does"
Non sequitur. NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO BE A BOY SCOUT, REGARDLESS OF SEXUAL ORIENTATION. And your propaganda machine (Hollywood, the MSM, the PC mantra, et.al) wherein you people constantly label difference of opinion as intolerance and bigotry, equally applies to yourselves. Sorry you're so blinded as to not recognize that.
"If you are homophobic or just a crass moron making stupid comments, what is the threat to you that you have such a problem with it? How exactly does this affect your life?" Browns Backer
What DOES affect every citizen of the United States is the attitude in our current pop culture that allows such a small percentage of the population to dictate to the vast majority. They try to turn EVERYTHING into a civil rights issue to favor their own intolerance and bigotry, when the only violation of rights in this case is the infringement of the right to freedom of association. Your statement is a perfect example. I could ask you, what is the threat to you that you can't be a boy scout, other than you don't get your little badge? You can certainly continue your life as a non-boy scout. Go start an organization of like-minded people and you'll probably be left alone.
"This does not mean I condone the exclusion of gays, it means that people have the right of free association ... as long as there is no taxpayer funding involved." Beth
Beth, this is a reasonable statement. But do you think it would solve the controversy if the BSA refused all government funding? Considering the constant attacks on traditional morals and opinions coming from all directions by the gay community and "liberals" in general, do you REALLY think gays and "liberals" would suddenly say, "Oh, okay, now we're square and we'll go away to leave you on your on. Live and let live, even though our politics disagree." REALLY? If so, I've got a bridge in San Fransisco for sale real cheap.
"When does the right to choose become bigotry?" OCinLA
The problem I have is the leftwing nutjobs' constant push for "gay rights." I don't believe in "gay rights," I believe in HUMAN rights. HUMAN rights apply to everyone, not just anyone's particular favorite minority. The last time I checked, there was no HUMAN right guaranteeing everyone could be a Boy Scout. The Supreme Court has already ruled that private organizations DO have the right to freedom of association. Which, in a nutshell, is EXACTLY what this issue boils down to. It doesn't matter how many names you call people (bigot, intolerant, racist, etc.), people have the right to decide with whom they associate, sleep in a tent, shower, change clothes in front of, and place in a position as role model for their children.
And if it's okay for you to force the change, why isn't it okay for those that disagree to fight against the change? (Don't start with the "I'm intolerant of intolerance" B.S., because "intolerance" is not unique to just one side of this argument. Look at the posts on this forum for examples.)
I thought I'd better give you one of FAUX NEW associated channels so you would believe it.
"I glad to say and applaud, the time of the intolerant bigoted old white men/women fairy tale believing"
See what I mean about the bigoted statements from the left? Change "white" for "black" and see what reaction you'd get from people like this rev J Wright joker.
Hey CC, 48 year old white farmer in the Texas Panhandle here.
Rev J Wright - What does your post prove? A young girl performed oral sex on two young boys. Is this an example of gay influence? Not in the slightest. This is an example of poor supervision and at least one of those three children being exposed to inappropriate information about sex and sharing that information at the school. Should we also ignore the fact that this was a church sponsored daycare? The BSA has a great deal of church sponsorship. Should we make the connection that this is happening there too?
jake
The new youth group could call itself the Bigot Scouts of America. They can burn crosses and get white pointy hoods at their graduation ceremony.
Chris Dominiak
While it is true that a person may choose not to act on their natural feelings, to repress them or deny them has been proven to be harmful. This is why the American Psychiatric Association has condemned " conversion therapies", which supposedly change a homosexual's orientation through repeated humiliation and self degradation.
Wow here we go again. Just can't get over it can you. CC GWRider amen. Also for some reason there is no definitive PROOF that sexual orientation is not simply a choice therefore the arguement that been a vegetarian is becomes moot. I think its a mental illness but it will never get treated because somehow you keep telling everyone "There is nothing wrong with it" over and over and over that is what happens. Ah well back to another huge non-story with the LBGT community yet again strong arming someone who has been TOLD it's perfectly legal to do what they are doing and yet its not "bullying" its "Civil rights movement". Yeah ok keep saying that. And to claim "Well your dinosaurs and we are moving on"... Good luck with that. Things are slowly slipping into the cesspool of life and I wouldn't be some "honored" with what is happening to society as a whole. Somehow "family values" became a dirty word....
monkey@keyboard 1.24
Typical. Your answer to my post is that you have no answer for why gays are obsessed with joining the scouts, thus your remark.
If the scouts have, as you say, pedophiles in their leadership ranks, I would think it should be all the more reason for gays to avoid the scouts, don't you?
Toredown-- if you don't like the Scout's Policies -- DON'T JOIN. You and your Gay friends can start your own organization. I would not allow my kids be a member of a Scout Troop with an "Openly" Gay Scout Master. For the Scouts, having Gay Leaders is would become a liability issue if a Scout was sexually assaulted by an "Openly Scout Leader". The Boy Scouts is NOT a Public Organization. They are a PRIVATE Organization. If you want to join their group, you have to follow their rules. This is just a group going after an Organization (Scouting) so the Gay & Lesbian groups can get their publicity and probably a large pay-out. People that want their children to be in the care of Gays & Lesbians, let them form their own group instead of attempting to destroy an Organization, like the Boy Scouts, that has been doing outstanding work for over 100 years.
CCGWRider -- You are the Racist and Bigot. Just because you are Gay doesn't mean everyone has to give in to your demands. Just like O'Bama -- disagree with O'Bama and you are immediately a Racist. Disagree with a Gay or Lesbian person, and you are a Racist.
KevNC - you need to re-read my post - I was pointing to Monkey and the other one that YES, KIDS DO KNOW ABOUT SUCH THINGS
and the bottom portion of my post was in support of an all INCLUSIVE Boy Scouts of America. So, please in the future read the post, understand the post, re-read the post and then post.
best regards
The BSA is like any other PRIVATE organization. Like Augusta National, the Klu Klux Klan, the American Nazi Party, the National Organization for Women, the Rainbow Push Coalition, the NAAF of the Southern Baptist Convention, the Church of Scientology, each organization is able to state who may or may not join the organization. Most of them are smart enough to not openly exclude a particular race, gender, orientation, or national origin. That does not mean a white cracker will be welcome in an Atlanta Baptist church, or Jesse Jackson will be elected Grand Wizard of the KKK.
If you don't like what the BSA stands for, don't support them.
More crap from the gay rights movement about how to destroy an organization from within.
Why can't gay people understand that parents' of children don't want those values teached? NO PARENT WANTS THEIR CHILD TO BE GAY. No parent wants them to be encouraged to come out. It is only in your mind that you think that this is about equal rights. Parents are fighting for the rights of their children. We know you want to indoctrinate them, because you can't have any of your own. That's why you refuse to form your own group. You would have very few members.
This is just another case of GAYS BULLYING OVER AND OVER AGAIN, when someone doesn't agree with them.
Rev Wright - A writer who states his case clearly would never need to tell a reader to read - understand - re-read. Also, I did re-read your post. You are expecting people to read pretty deeply to get what you are claiming your message is. Plus, if your argument is that the children in the article understand what sex is, you'd be wrong. If they did, then they would know that their efforts were futile since at their age their sexual organs are not developed enough to properly engage in sexual activity. The reality is that one of them was probably being molested or witnessed someone in a sex act and attempted to recreate the act on his or her own. So your argument still does not hold any water with the situation at hand. The two people you were responding to were talking about sexual orientation, by the way, not the physical act of sex. Perhaps you should learn to read-understand-reread before you post.
"Already, do you have any idea how the boys are telling dirty jokes about homos right now? This is a tradition of boys anyway. What fun they are going to have making fun of their homosexual scout masters."
OK change the bigoted words to other bigoted words and see what happens.
"Already, do you have any idea how the boys are telling dirty jokes about @!$%#s right now? This is a tradition of boys anyway. What fun they are going to have making fun of their @!$%# scout masters."
"Already, do you have any idea how the boys are telling dirty jokes about jews right now? This is a tradition of boys anyway. What fun they are going to have making fun of their jew scout masters."
"Already, do you have any idea how the boys are telling dirty jokes about gooks right now? This is a tradition of boys anyway. What fun they are going to have making fun of their gook scout masters."
They all seem bigoted to me. Even if "jew" and "homosexual" aren't bigoted terms, they are still used in bigoted ways.
That makes you a bigot. Aren't you late for your klan meeting?
The scouts are a private organization and as such do not have to allow someone's choice about sexuality into their ranks - color is one thing - it is inherent...being gay is something someone chooses (although I would admit there are most likely societal influences that may contribute - just like alcoholism or some menatl illness)...either way the scouts can and should ban gays from the group if that is against the tenants of their mission...just because you are gay does not mean that you are right and others are wrong.
I am not religious in the least, but, SCOTUS has already said the BSA are legal in operating as they are. They have always had a religious background as part of their Mantra, read their Oath: On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight. These are their morals that people are trying to coerce into changing, and training the youth that they should abandon their moral convictions at the behest of people that oppose them! That is just wrong they have the right to their religious beliefs , even if WE do not agree with them! That is an integral part of our Constitution in the 1st Amendment, so you are also asking them to forsake another part of their Oath, which is to do their duty to their country, which I believe means to also honor its Constitution! I would rather have them teach the Scouts to stand by their moral convictions then to kowtow to someone elses beliefs, whether their beliefs are right or wrong! These youths will grow up into adults and have their own belief systems, whether they are the same as the BSA or not will remain to be seen! Start another scouting organization that believe as you do and teach your values to them, you have every right to do that! SCOTUS has already ruled in their favor! Get over it and let them live their lives as they feel is the right way to live! This is from a former Scout, that has grown up to believe that Gays have the right to live their lives, but do not believe that they have the right to coerce people into accepting their beliefs!
I sincerely hope that the BSA sticks to their principles; we've already had too much "progressive" crap shoved down out throats.
More wicked lies from an anti-Christ. The Gospel of Jesus Christ, that is, the New Testament, does not condone any of those things. Have you read the Bible? Either you are a willful liar, or you clearly have not.
"I give you a new command, that ye love one another as I have loved you" This is the summation of all the law.
No one who "loves one another" could justify doing the things that you have mentioned. Your argument is a standard garden variety lie of the atheist leftist God-hating homosexual, who, needing to find something in the universe more loathsome than him/herself, pretends that a Christian is someone who resembles an axe-wielding murderer rather than someone who resembles the crucified Savior.
For your information, the Bible teaches us the necessity of resembling the crucified Savior. In light of that, your statement is an extreme example of that which is wickedly and perversely ironic, a statement that is much worse, much more evil than simply a bald-faced lie. But that is what is to be expected from the homosexual atheist.
Leave it to MSNBC to present the flood of mail as being nearly divided in opinion and favoring the homosexual deviants if anything when that truth is also completely contrary to what is being said. In all probability the mail coming in is ten to one opposed to allowing the BSA to be corrupted by those whose evil truly does know no bounds, the homosexuals.
When the Scouts cave in to the wicked homosexuals, it will be the end of scouting. For that matter, it will be the end of freedom of religion in the United States. For that matter, it will be the End of the World.
Anyone who would permit their son to go on an overnight camping trip with a gaggle of homosexual leaders and fellow travelers is sick in the head and morally irresponsible. Anyone who thinks that being "intolerant" of perversion is somehow objectionable, but that perversion itself is acceptable, is morally twisted and logically irrational.
The tolerance of evil is not a virtue. The intolerance of virtue is not a virtue. The hatred of all that is good is not itself a good thing. May God bless all those who love what is good. In other words, May God bless all those who hate what is evil.
You have a problem with that?
Once again, i am appalled at most "conservative" American "values".... claiming to be Christians yet ignoring Christ's biggest commandment. Claiming to be conservative, but are all for wasting resources. Screaming "socialism" at the top of your lungs, but turn a blind eye to the fascism you perpetuate. You talk about YOUR freedom, but seek to deny others the same right.
"Simply it is these God-fearing people who built this organization over the past 100 years 1st Amendment rights."
I guess it kills you to know the original founder of the Boy Scouts was gay....
The founder for the Boy Scouts of AMERICA was not gay...... so yeah it does have to do with the US first amendment rights.
The black/white argument does not equate to the gay/straight question. Blacks/whites cannot change the color of their skin but gays can and have changed their orientation/preference on their own without therapy. Gays will discount the choice and say they have only repressed their true self. Couldn't the opposite be true, gays repress their true straight self to pursue alternative sexual desires? Why? Why would anyone do anything outside the social mainstream (pierce every flap or tattoo every inch of their bodies, cosmetically alter facial appearance, surgically alter genitalia)? The answer is, because in America they can.
Regardless, the BSA is not in violation of anyone's constitutional or civil rights. On the contrary, LGBT and atheists who knowingly join, participate in BSA activities or associate themselves with the BSA in any way are in violation of SCOTUS and the BSA's constitutional rights. This is a much bigger issue.
Just a short , quick answer is needed . No gays in our scouts !
Rev J Wright:
I know you and you are not a "white farmer from the Texas panhandle!" You are in fact a black insurance broker (own your own small company) in Atlanta, GA. Stop trying to fool folks. Don't lie!!!
I would like to join the local VFW. Looks like a fun group. They tell me they have a rule that a memeber must have been in the military and served on foriegn soil. What kind of crap is that ? I mean can thay do that? make rules that keep me out .
Of course that comment is sarcasm. The point is the boy scouts are a group just like EVERY OTHER group and they have rules. If you don't meet the requirements of the rules you can not be a member. It is not your civil right to join a private group.
The gay agenda is being pushed so hard and has been for many years. because of the separation of church and state we can't teach creationizm in schools but can teach evolutionizm. Because we have taken church out of schools the gay lifestyle is taught as acceptable and should be embraced. This would not be possible if the priciples of the Bible were allowed to be looked at as an alternative. Our kids are not being given the balance they need to make the informed choice of whether the gay life style is proper or not to man or mankind. They are only getting one side of the issue in high school and in college.If we allowed alternitive views to be explored and expressed in our schools I believe the gay movement would not be as strong as it is. Since only one side can be discussed the tables are tilted in thier favor. If we can teach non christian and non natural behaivir as "OK" then we should also be able to teach the opposite.
Actually, no .. because the people INSIDE the organization are wanting the change as well. Since they do, I suspect change WILL come sooner or later. What I gave was my personal feeling on the issue. Even though I don't like the stance the BSA has on this issue, I do believe in the right of free association as long as tax payer dollars are not involved.
However I must take issue with you equating "gays" and "liberals" .... they are not synonymous. Ever heard of the Log Cabin Republicans? About as conservative as you can get. I also know a lot of "left wing' Dems who don't favor gay marriage and other steps toward equality.
Quit making "liberal" a pejorative term (and the same goes for "conservative").
Abolish the BSA.
Instead of abolishing the BSA, why don't we just give everyone what they want? I say we let men become girl scout leaders and womens locker room attendants. Same thing as letting a gay guy take my boy into the woods unsupervised. Total LUNACY!!!!!!! What has happened to this country? 1 John 5:19 - "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."
csmithers
It's a two-way street.
Want to block some children? Go for it.
But we as a society should be allowed to block the scouts from getting tax free status and government grants.
The lunacy is when you want it your way, but aren't willing to pay for it, just like abortion. If you don't want abortion, then you better support free social programs for unwed mothers, adoption groups and birth control.
And while we're quoting bible, how about 1 John 4:20: Anyone who says "I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar.
My husband was a registered Girl Scout leader when our daughter was in Scouting, and he even went on camping trips. We have a local troop run by a Dad. There are many women Boy Scout leaders. If any Boy Scout troop is letting a boy go into the woods with one leader and no other supervision, they are violating the Child Safety guidelines set out by BSA. Banning gays has not kept pedophiles out, because they are not the same thing. Two-deep leadership, open communication, and lots of adult involvement are what keep kids safe. Would you have let your son go to a football game with Jerry Sandusky before the scandal broke?
WoW csithers you are so way off base. You do realise that throughout all the sexual misconduct cases in the BSA the over whelming cases the offending leader is Straight married highly religious. I would actually trust a gay male with my son over your straight highly religious married man. I know that the gay leader would be under such a microscope that he wouldn't dare doing anything unless hes plain stupid and wants to instantly get caught.
Amazing that there are still ignoramuses that think gay men are all pedophiles. Pedophiles are just that. Not particularly gay or straight. There's no set criteria. Your young boy scouts are not under any threat from a gay scout leader. Wake up.
Did you know that homosexuals account for 1/3 of all pedophile cases even though they comprise only 4% of the population? That is something the gay agenda doesn't want people to know. Still think your son would be completely safe? The rates are MUCH HIGHER with homosexuals than with heterosexuals.
Deebo:
Unless you can back up your claim with a hard source, I will consider it to be just so much bulls**t.
SPider ask and you shall receive
In that report it stats that out of 269 cases studied in 1992 only 2 were identified as gay or lesbian. Further more in additional studies it put the cases at zero to 3%.As other people keep stating a pedophiles is not based on sexual orientation but more on psychological malfunction and opportunity.
Unhappy do you selectively read? From what i read its 1/3 of all pedophiles cases are homosexual acts not done by homosexual's. I don't now where you got that from.
Deebo: Are you suggesting that homosexuals acts were committed by straight people? If that were the case, then why do gay people need to identify themselves as gay, when in fact they are just straight people in disguise?
Is this what you meant?
Disban the Boy Scouts....they are useless !!!! Heterosexuals have been brainwashed by religion..... there is no GOD idiots. The bible is just another book written by someone with too much time on his hands. .....stick with Santa Clause.
I know there is a God and even though you deny His existence it does not change that fact. Even more to the point I live in a country where your religious beliefs do not take precedence over mine or mine over yours. So go out and create your own organization and stop trying to destroy mine. You're like a little child who would rather destroy or take a thing rather than do the necessary work to have your own.
And one day.... you will stand before God & you will get your chance to tell Him yourself
You have a serious mental problem if you "know" there is a God, Tristam. You don't know, because you have no evidence. Do you even care if your beliefs are true or not?
We don't need people who don't believe in reason and evidence teaching our children anything. On the contrary, people who don't believe in reason and evidence should be locked up someplace. You lose your 1st Amendment rights when you prove yourself insane. Your faith (gullibility) is proof enough of your insanity.
Keep clinging to God, guns, and gays though, Tristam. See where it gets you.
Who wrote the bible? It was not just one book in the beginning. Constantine the Great can take the credit for putting together the books we now call the Bible.
@Tristan: To know contradicts the idea that you have faith. Faith doesn't require proof yet here you are saying you "know" something. Last I checked the two didn't go hand in hand.
Hey Captain Moron - It's called "faith" because God will never give us direct evidence. We have free choice between right and wrong. Between good and evil. Between believing or not. Between his way or another way. You've been given the choice and freedom to not believe. People of faith would believe your fate has been sealed. Don't know if you are familiar with the bible but the story of the Apostle Thomas tells all. Lots of hate in you. It's easy to see.
@ vik2112:
Wow! LOL What vitriol!
Your God will never give direct evidence? What kind of malevolent God is He?
If you have free choice between right and wrong, why do you need a silly book to get your "morals" from? Would you kill, lie, steal, covet thy neighbors wife and ass, and have other gods before you if your silly book didn't tell you it was wrong?
Faith is gullibility. Faith is a cop-out. Faith is an excuse not to provide evidence for people who don't have any and don't want to think anyway.
And how evil do you have to be to wish people who don't believe as you do to go to hell? Can you think of any finite crime that your children could commit that would cause you to create a torture chamber in your basement and torture them forever? If not, why do you tolerate such behavior from your god?
I'm very familiar with The Bible; obviously more familiar than you.
You may be familiar with it captain jack but nyou have no idea what it means.
Applaud and admire people who are seeking the truth, rebuke and avoid those who claim to have found it because nothing is more dangerous than a man who has complete faith that his truth is universal and unassailable.
The homosexuals would have us all believe that if they get what they want no harm will come to anyone by doing it ...lets see where we are as a country in 20 years
TRISTAM you do not really worship a GOD yet you pretend to be christian and you are not.. MORMONS are not christians
culheath... thank you for that message that most of us had forgotten to apply to our lives
David... MORON does not suffice in a description of you.. and by the way it is you and people like you so filled with hate , racisim, and bigotry that you should never ever be able to stand in a church.. Gays have been in gov't, and in religious elements like churches or any other walk of life.. I always wonder when I read comments like your's how many times in you life have you had gay sex.. or do you play strictly by the Bible especially Leviticus.. which actually controls your sex life.. a big bet on that would be a big loss for me.. LOL
all you hypocrites need to stand in fron5t of a mirror and assess your self first. if you find your self perfect then you are GOD
Tristam is in that self assesment category.. and he found him self to be PERFECT so he can degrade, belittle, and vervally abuse others with compunction
CWATER I believe you have describe a position than you could rapidly admit to being a part of
Notice how all the people who are against a change in the rules are old. The new generations are passing them by and they can't stand it.
Are they the ones that remember God and the 1st Amendment as well?
Deborah-Not really true, but good guess. Live in your own world as I believe you are. Thanks for posting a typical bs comment.
Gary, Deborah is correct, according to all available statistics. Support for gay rights is almost inversely linearly correlated with age.
Great observation, Deborah, and so true!
Why is it that we cannot have an organization that sets rules & follows them?
The trouble with liberals is they believe everyone should be able to join anything... REGARDLESS of how different the beliefs may be........
Kind of like skin-heads joining a synagogue...... Why?
I'm not old by any means and my kids are younger than I of course, and they agree that this is not right.
We however, will continue to pray for you and others like you. I don't try to push my beliefs on anyone. I do not try to convert anyone to being a vegetarian, nor do I try to force anyone to buy American only, or to save the environment and prevent climate control. Therefore, I deserve the same respect in that no one pushes their thoughts or beliefs on me.
It is the new generation that will be the downfall of the great country we had. History does repeat its self. All other countries who allowed homosexualality to become a part of their society flagrantly.............fell and they are continuing to fall.
The new generation is not passing me by as I can run rings around all of you. I have ethics, morals, devotion and do not want to nor have I ever depended on a government to take care of me. I have worked since I was 14 sometimes 2 jobs and attended school because I have PRIDE something the new generation lacks.
In every culture other than ours, people respect their elders. They recognize that with age comes wisdom. No wonder the rest of the world sees Americans as idiots.
Tristam, you are obviously homophobic. I am straight myself, but I don't run screaming from a room just because somebody gay walks into it. And you might consider that the First Amendment is not directed only at homophobic white Mormons. In addition, being gay does not mean one does not believe in God; as a matter of fact, I would ask you where Jesus spoke out against homosexuality - leave out the Old Testament unless you are also going to argue for stoning of people that eat shrimp or sass their parents (I'll leave out the part about multiple wives, even though the "one man, one woman because it says so in the Bible" argument is often used against gay marriage).
And all of you hypocrites that rant and rave about this without knowing what you are talking about, whining about how allowing gays into the BSA will result in molestations, keep a few things in mind. First, pedophilia is mostly an issue with heterosexual men, so I guess you'll need to ban all of them as well (that should narrow your leaders down). Secondly, if you think that gays are not already involved in Scouting, both at the Scout and Scouter levels, you are a fool. Whether or not you are booted when the BSA finds out often depends on who you are and how the local Council views you. I know of one Scout that earned his Eagle that could not have been more obviously gay (he even brought his boyfriend to a Red and Green banquet). However, since he and his father, a Scoutmaster, were liked by Council, nobody ever said anything about it.
Fact is, the BSA tends to not play its own rules. It is supposed to be a volunteer-run organization, yet it is not. Anybody that has dealt with the BSA at the district or council level knows it is run by the professionals, many of which are more concerned with income than with anything else (you can argue against that, but you know better). There are rules against a lot of things that are often overlooked or completely ignored when the situation warrants. The youth of the BSA are ill-served by all these adults that are better at practicing hypocrisy than they are at being "morally straight" (the straight part, by the way, has NOTHING to do with sexual orientation - the term was used long before that usage was in place). And, of course, if your pack or troop or crew or whatever practices 2-deep leadership, as it is supposed to, this is not likely to be a problem under any circumstances; if it is not, you and your committee is at fault and should remove yourselves from leadership positions.
By the way, there is quite a bit of evidence that Baden-Powell himself was gay. He didn't found the BSA, of course, but he did found the Boy Scouts.
Obviously the BSA considered changing their rules because their corporate sponsors were going to bail if they didn't.
During this pause, I'm sure they're using the time to beat the bushes for new sponsors so they don't have to change.
Failing to find new ones, they'll probably accept the change and join the 21st Century.
Steve-466003 - By Republican standards, I am a liberal because I vote Democrat. I do however feel that those who dislike the current laws/rules of the Boy Scouts should just start their own group as it does not benefit anyone in the long run. If gays are allowed in - there will be fights, insults and distractions and many will leave. If you're gay, just start your own group and do what you feel is right.
Some people complained about Coke's ingredients - result was a new coke for those who liked the one they had.
Someone was careless and spilled coffee from Mc Donalds and everyone gets pee warm coffee. also, some people complained about Mc Donalds fries containing meat fat - everyone else cannot have the ones that got everyone to go there in the first place.
I used to drink coke - now I do not. I used to like Mc's fries - now I do not. I do not support these companies because I lost what I liked about their product. I am upset because where ever I go , I have to deal with colder coffee than I like.
Although the boy scouts does not make a product, the principal of what is going on is the same.
For those that feel that the Boy scouts are filled with religious freaks and do not like them, why would you want to join? Just start your own group that does not believe in religion and have your own tax exempt status.
I am considered elderly and I am NOT against "Gays's". I just do not believe anyone will benefit from "Forcing" others to change or leave a group they founded.
This controversy isn't principally about gay Scouts; it's about gay Scout masters. If we're so afraid of being called intolerant that we shrink from protecting our children from sexual deviants, then may the good Lord help us. (Yes, I believe there is a good Lord.)
Well said Debbie-4338128
Same people, same arguments, same results..don't all of you get tired of this? A merry-go-round that never stops.
true .. I guess what the homosexuals fail to realize is that yes they may push their way into our society and try to tear our morals down but the will never be truly accepted and will always be looked upon as a scourge of society
"homosexuals ... will never be truly accepted and will always be looked upon as a scourge of society" // This is totally contradicted by every poll on these issues that's been taken in recent years.
LEFTWING I am in awe.. but I would be willing that those to whom this applies will not read it.. I enjoyed every word.. and you are correct I was on the Valley Forge Council Board and there was little talk of programs, things to help scouts who were working dilligently for their merit badges.. but plenty of chats about what would we be paid if we went to a Jamboree or visited a troop.. I stayed for 6 months and left even that early churches were forcing troops to worship their way or nothing no more room for free, and those were primarily Catholic churches.. (a church full of phedophiles..)
Debbie
"All other countries who allowed homosexualality to become a part of their society flagrantly.............fell and they are continuing to fall."
Name ONE country that has failed due to their open acceptance of " homosexualality". Please, enlighten us all.
I don't understand why people say this. Gays are not trying to push their beliefs on anyone. They are not trying to convert you or your family to homosexuality. They aren't trying to brain-wash kids into being gay. Stop using this phrase. The only thing they want, is to be free from the discrimination and disdain that people like you place on them
People claimed this country would fall when we ended slavery. They predicted its demise when we gave women the same rights as men. Its was going to hell in a hand-basket when we allowed integration of races. You see where I'm going.
If this country collapses because we allow gays to freely integrate into society, then frankly, we deserve to fail.
I'll remember that, as we pay off the debt and repair the financial damage created by your generation.
JUSTIN B:
Belgium- I believe they are on the verge of failing and could enravel the whole EU. I guess God doesn't take kindly to people who are so open about sexuality. They also have the highest teenage pregnancy rate on the planet....
Belgium is having an ongoing political crisis that has lasted for at least 4 years, but the country has not collapsed, and open homosexuality is not at the forefront of their political debates.
"Someone was careless and spilled coffee from Mc Donalds and everyone gets pee warm coffee."
Wow! How ignorant you are is just shining through!
The woman that spilled coffee on herself was given a cup with a lid that wasn't on all the way. The coffee was a t 190 degrees when it was only supposed to be at 170 degrees (212 degrees is the boiling point) and gave her third degree burns requiring skin grafts. The only reason she sued was because Medicare only covered her care for so long, then cut her off, then she paid out of pocket and went broke. All she asked was that McDonalds pay for what Medicare wouldn't.
The coffee spilled in her lap and burned her inner thighs and vagina. She was in her 80's at the time. Part of the condition of the settlement prevented her from even talking about it. Yet, McDonalds had their PR staff working overtime to cover-up the truth.
Watch the documentary "Hot Coffee".
Try Again.....This just happened last December 2012.
http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/belgian-pm-says-country-going-backwards-gay-tolerance061212
Along with......http://www.advocate.com/news/daily-news/2011/12/06/worlds-first-full-time-gay-male-leader-belgiums-elio-di-rupo
Don't you ever look at the news? And this was just in the past 4 years.
Unhappy -
Actually, no. Belgium does not have the highest teen pregnancy rate in the world, you liar. The US far outstrips Belgium when it comes to teen pregnancy. Particularly the fundieland areas.
Oddly, teen pregnancy goes up in areas where contraception is frowned upon, abortion is unavailable, and people prefer to teach the "magic stork theory" of babies, along with abstinence, rather than real sex education. I mean, who'da thunk it?
This is not something to be proud of. Does it really matter, since we are talking about homosexuality?
Actually teenage pregnancy goes up when children act stupid and then expects the govt. to bail them out through the use of free abortions, free contraceptions, and free welfare.
But that is a separate issue.
Unhappy, I think I can see why you ARE unhappy. Your statistics, if you can call them that, on teen pregnancy are quite revealing. Not of teen pregnancy, but of you. Free contraceptions? What is that? And is there something besides "free welfare"?
Many of these posts are hilarious. Although some of them are rather frightening.
Stop trying to change the subject.
.
To those of you concerned that gay scouts might be allowed in and would ruin scouts, I'll let you in on a secret... Gay scouts are already in the BSA, they just keep to themselves. Your sons are still safe, being gay is not contagious. I didn't realize I was gay until I was 11, maybe 12. By then, I had already been in scouts for 3-4 years. I kept my orientation to myself and quit Scouts when I graduated High School. There are thousands and thousands like me in the organization. Simply acknowledging them will not harm scouting. We are people with feelings. We didn't choose to be gay, as much as you didn't choose to be straight.
Ray, we all make choices, start by owning up to the choices you made. One choice was being deceitful.
I guess my question is why is this a question? I don't care if you're gay or straight, if you mention your sexuality in any way to my underage son while holding any kind of leadership position, I'll have you brought up on charges and you better watch your back.
Why on earth would someone's sexuality be a subject that would be brought up when their supposed to be teaching boys survival and leadership skills? "Don't ask, don't tell" better apply to straight and gay men! And if there's situations in scouts where we need to worry about a leader's sexuality, those situations should not be occurring in the first place. I don't think its a good idea to have any unrelated adult alone in overnight situations with young boys. If their aren't multiple chaperones making sure there are no situations that might occur where a boy is exposed to inappropriate behavior by a scout leader I can guarantee MY kids won't be there. I don't care if your gay or straight. Your blood will bleed the same color if I find out you're discussing your sexual preferences with my son.
I just do not understand why you are punishing children. Most start the boy scouts in kindergarten, long before they even start figuring out which gender they find more attractive. Who they think is cute has no bearing on the skills they master in the boy scouts. The only reason that this is an issue is because a kid decided to be honest and then was shut out of the organization that he respected and worked hard at for most of his childhood. The fact that they just can just casually ban and cast them aside reminds me of the Westboro church. They do the same thing to their children.
Ditto that, Ray in Jax.
No kid can join in kindergarten actually and I'm sure there are several gay scouts now. The only time it has ever been a problem is when they decide to advertise it for whatever reason. So no child is really being punished by BSA...they usually end up trying to make a statement and punish themselves.
I saw a great post earlier today, somewhere above under one of the collapsed threads, that summed it up nicely, I thought. "Gay is Gay...Straight is Straight.......Enough is Enough!"
STOP using and interfering with children's undeveloped sexuality for benefit of your agenda!!! Works both ways, stop using and interfering with it as Gay Adults wanting to be leaders. Any of your perceived Civil Rights are protected in and by the PRIVACY OF YOUR OWN BEDROOM, as that is what is at the heart of the matter and the only place that issues of your sexuality belong! (and not with Minor Children as a part or party to it, in any way, at all!) STOP forcing your Adult Sexuality Agenda on Minor Children and Society. ENOUGH.
Start your own "Adult" Gay Scouts! Leave Children and their UNDEVELOPED SEXUALITY out of Adult sexuality issues.
This whole LGBT Movement has crossed the line from "EVERYWHERE IN YOUR FACE SEXUALITY ISSUES" being made PREDATORY on every conceivable aspect of Society!
STOP. ENOUGH.
seems like they would have enough respect for the boy scouts...rather than burden them with their perverted attitude...to start their own club...gay scouts of america...that would be the simple solution...
@Mystery Rhee
I wouldn't say kids are underdeveloped in terms of sexuality. More so they aren't "sexually aware" yet. That doesn't happen till all the hormones start to pump through their bodies. I will agree that sex shouldn't be a topic touched upon till sometime in Middle School or so (around 6th or 7th grade).
Moving on from that, this country is full of a bunch of backwards thinking prudes. I really wonder what we would find if we compared our country to more sexually open countries? Would we have more teen pregancies? More teen cases of STIs/STDs? Really makes one wonder...
rightousyouth1, #5.10- Thanks for the reply. AND for pointing out what you have, to me, especially about the "hormones". I got out the big Dictionary and looked up "sexuality" and here is what I have.
sexuality: 1. The condition of being charachterized and distinguished by sex. 2. Concern or preoccupation with sex. 3.The quality of possessing a sexual charachter or potency.
#2 is what I intended behind my use of the term "sexuality" and that is what I meant by "undeveloped" sexuality; albeit that there is definately evidence in Child Development, as a Science, that "curiosity", not "preoccupation" with sex exists around the age of 3 years old as Children begin to explore their own bodies and then move on to a stage of "playing Doctor" with each other, after that. (This is also a time where a lot of damage can occur to the Child, depending on how it's handled by the Adults in their life, if proper boundaries (of the Adult) around the issue are not set; meaning whether or not invasion of those natural boundaries as they're developing are allowed to occur or if they're captured by the Adult to try and either put a stop to them, shame them or make them or mold them). This phase sets the stage for the next time it will occur, after the hormones have kicked in. But, if this younger phase of Child Development is damaged and not "completed", especially by interference and interuption, you will get the same "confusion" in the later stage, but with hormones now playing a part. It seems like Nature assumes and presumes that certain stages, besides just "physical" will have been properly completed, to a "Healthy Sexuality", first, and by the time the hormones kick in. i.e. I have a Friend who clearly remembers, like it's scarred onto his brain, being caught "playing Doctor" with his Cousin at age 4 and being shamed over it. He went on to become an extreme "literal Sex Addict", with Women, from about 6th grade on and into Adulthood to an extreme that then crossed over into pre-occupied fascination and perspective with and to anything "sexual" in nature, including then into fascinations with exploring anything of "Adult sexual perversion". It was his almost "desperate pre-occupation", as a "set" mentality that was so disturbing to be around! (I also have had many Gay Friends and Associates and have heard from them their stories of difficulties with their "Father", specifically, from earlier in Life).
I'm not saying this is any way to be "used against" Gays, but only to point out that there are psychological and emotional stages and factors to Human Development that are valid for considerations and that it's not all just Physical, and what one is "physically" doing, as in preoccupation with "the act", itself, that makes or breaks or counts "ONLY"; and then there is the question of what point "literal physicality of gender" is determined, for you, to should not have to be a "pre-occupation" or concern, if you will, because there is a point where the fetus is neither Male or Female and then becomes one or the other. Boys are Boys and Girls are Girls. What ever happened to that, as an "embracing" starting point? Is that not a "reasonable" expectation for Society to have, as a starting point?
Just my thoughts, in reply. Thank you, again, for replying to me.
Mystery, don't you see... what the BSA is doing for gay scouts simply isn't enough. Not even close. They need to treat all boys the same, regardless of their ethnicity, height, weight, hair color, religion, and sexual orientation.
How does a policy that broadly expels thousands of children be enough? Like 'em or not, they're Americans too you know. These same boys you can't stand to honor may someday have to give their lives for....well, for YOU! Many will age out of scouting and then join the military to fight your next war to defend YOUR freedom.
Gary,
I feel the same way, I don't understand why they have to openly be in the he boy scouts. If it's truly that important for them to be a part of a group, why do they feel it has to be anounced that they are gay!!!
It has nothing to do with gays openly declaring their orientation, it is about a blanket ban enforced for hysterical and unsubstantiated reasons if the gay person is outed for any reason. There is nothing in the constitution that guarantees your right to be a bigot or that you can use your religious beliefs as an excuse for it.
If gays didn't want to be accepted openly, then why would they be pursuing this acceptance into the Boy Scouts? Since you mentioned the word bigot, then I will say that label goes for gays just the same.
This entire situation has arisen not because gays suddenly wanted open acceptance of their homosexuality but rather because they were being outted about their orientation not of their own will and then being thrown out of the scouts because of it, regardless of how much they had achieved or what good works they had already accomplished over a long period of time. If you can't see the tremendous unfairness of that situation you have an essential problem with the idea of social equality and must be harboring serious irrational fears based on erroneous social stereotyping.
I don't think they should be outed, just think they don't have to let the scouts know about their sexuality. I do believe the act of homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of God, that is His word. I'm not excluding other immoral acts here, there are many other immoralities that God does not want in our lives, such as adultery, sex outside of marriage, etc. If you're an atheist then you will not agree. I have two gay family members and know gay people and like them very much, just can't condone something I believe is wrong.
They don't, unless asked. You want them to lie about it if asked though? Where's that at in terms of the honor code? And why should they be expected to lie about a central aspect of who they are?
No one is expecting you to actively condone anything, just to not actively protest a thing that has no real bearing on you or your family except where you find it offensive to your articles of faith. You don't get to use your faith to deny other people their right to be who they inherently are in any other respect that doesn't cause harm.
culheath
but it's ok for them to take an oath to god ? or are the homosexuals wanting the oath rewritten to fit their needs as well ?
culheath, I honestly don't understand why any person wants to be a part of a group that they feel is against them!
@How Great Thou Art - it's because they've been part of this organization for 8, 10, 12 years or so before they understood their sexual orientation. We're not talking about 18 year old openly gay males clamoring to join Scouts. We're talking about teenagers who have been Scouts since they were first-graders. This is where their friends are, their mentors - people they've volunteered with, camped with, backpacked with, suddenly kicking them out of the organization because they realize their sexual orientation is different. We're not talking about boys getting caught having sex - it just needs to be reported that they are gay, and they can be cast out. For them to lose their membership in Scouting is a cruel and unnecessary blow.
HOW GREAT THOU ART... first you need to rid yourself of that NICK.. It implies that you are a christian AND YOU ARE NOT.. just by reading your comment.. there is no room in christianity for your hatred, for your bigotry, and you hypocrisy.. so next time you see fit to go to your church.. fall on your knees and beg forgivness for your comment filled with hatred
Maxgiver: It is people like you who are rewriting the bible to follow your own ideals. How great thou art is exactly right....... Your pseudochristianity is what is causing you to be filled with hate. You see bigotry when there is none. You claim christianity when in fact, you are making up a new religion; one where gay and human love is seen as the epitomy of everything when in fact, IT REPLACES GOD.
God should be seen first, not your ideals.
This is why no one believes you when you call out bigotry and try to use it against christians.
@How Great ... you've avoided the very situation that Culhealth brought up. What happens IF the kid is outed? Should the Boy Scouts operate under the military's failed Don't Ask, Don't Tell (but if Someone Else Tells, You're Toast) policy?
Barry NJ: I think the question of the Scouts has more to do with Scout leaders than the scouts themselves. The gay agenda is just using that as a ploy to make you think they are fighting for those scouts, when in fact they want to be in positions of authority.
Most kids if they know some other scout is gay, will probably keep it quiet. Kids don't like to tattle on each other unless there is a big problem with bullying.
The BSA is a private organization. As such, they can allow and disallow whomever they please into their organization. If the homosexual community wants an organization similar to the BSA, why don't they start their own?
Seriously this is a sticky issue all around. The biggest problem I see is logistical. I wouldn't want my son sleeping in a tent with a gay scout, just like I would object to him tenting with a girl. So then do you have gay tents and straight tents? No, having "gay" tents would be equivalent to tenting boys and girls together....There is no good way to handle it.
We sexualize children far to early in this society. Personally, I hate to see kids cornering themselves into "gay" or "straight" catagories before 18 anyway. They need to be focused on school, making friends and figuring out who they are....not who they want to sleep with anyway. They have a lifetime to figure all that other stuff out.
But most of I all stand behind the BSA's right to dictate the standards for membership in their group. We have a constitutional right to freedom of association. If someone doesn't agree with membership criteria for any group, don't join. It is not that complicated.
Either way they eventually decide, I will not "freak out", but if the current policy is changed I guarantee I and many other parents will be asking a lot more questions about how these issues will be handled in our troop.
CoRavensFan:
And if blacks want an education, or a water fountain, they can darned well just have their own. Right?
Man, oh, Man! This is a fine mess. It's literally a preposterous mess. I'm sorry, I don't mean to give up the struggle too easily. There may have to be some new variety of scouting invented.
It's a moral and legal question certainly. I almost feel like it's a matter of if, for example, Wal-Mart doesn't want to deny gays the right to shop at Wal-Mart, they want gay people to shop there, and you, the reader, don't want to have to shop with gays: then, problem solved, don't go to Wal-Mart. But it's not that easy. It's a matter of values mixed with the development of children, mucked to the mucky muck with the proud, conflicted, tragic, ubiquitous, unyielding, biosocial phenomenon of human libido and sexuality.
I think Sigmund Freud would definitely have to be high on drugs to make a determination on this dilemma.
I mean, if any subject on planet Earth is going to be an exercise in the irrational, this is it.
On another sexually charged subject, a friend of mine argued that some women "ask" to be raped, not in so many words, but by allowing themselves to be caught in some unsafe environment. That is difficult to argue because that suggests that "men" are lying in wait for a vulnerable creature to come along alone in the dark and then leaping to the opportunity to rape. That is messed up. I just don't think it can be argued that rape is anything but a brutal, animal, criminal act. But I'm not stupid either. I know that perpetrators and victims have attitudes and personal traits. They are homo sapiens. They have libido and sexuality. There may be some insanity in the family, maybe criminal insanity.
And you might wonder why, if one of these was on fire, I wouldn't waste my spit on them to put out the flames. The Boy Scouts question is a real mess. Scouting, as we have known it, may be done. We may have to move on to something that the boy, Elroy, from the Jetsons could join. Maybe the team leader could be a very polite robot with the manners of an English butler.
unhhappy.... I am a christian and am very proud of it and very sad that you profess to be so with your discrimination .. I struggle daily with my faith and dislike when morons like you start to profess your christianty and can do nothing but betray GOD with you hatred and bigotry.. and as for speaking about the bible I suggest you rethink that.. more than one person has demeaned every gay man in the world.. so explain that to me.. I suggest you go back and read comments.. by the way reread my comment moron I said nothing about being a christian did I?? I would never belong to a large organization like the PSEUDO christian churches here in the USA simply because for the most part you that go are hypocrites.. attend church and stand outside the church on sunday and trash some one because you or your wife doesn't like them..
now you need to reread leviticus in the bible as it controls your adult sex life LMAO but that's not part of your bible is it.. or you pseudochristians ignore it
Maxgiver: You just mentioned you were a christian, so I was correct in my assumption. I will forget the fact that you first called me a moron.
As for your personal feelings, you are focusing too much on the book of Leviticus which makes me think that you only know what liberals teach you. That in itself, makes me question how much you really know about God. Did you know there are other books in the bible that talks about sexuality?
Again, this idea you have smacks of pseudochristianity and speaks of someone trying to fill in the blanks with their own thoughts instead of God's. So what kind of a christian would I be then, if I didn't warn you?
Some mentioned - "When they feel they are not accepted, why join them?" Exactly so. We all have freedom of choice, legally imposed or not. Would a Muslim even think of joining a Christian club, when the members are limited to Christians? What a foolish question even to ask.
If gay activists are bent for their agenda and ideology and collecting a political power try to change culture and even language (calling tax-benefiting copulation relation as 'marriage'), the time has now come to form a proud Gay Scout of America. Don't try infect the tradition, history, and spirit of what has been known as BSA. Don't try to put BSA sleep in R.I.P., please.
Romans 1:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Barry,
If a young man has to admit that he is gay and they dismiss him, then that is the rules. We live by rules throughout life. I would be more concerned with eternal life and whether God sees me as obedient to His word. We are all capable of sin and there is none righteous, so we have to decide whether to live the will of God or go agaisnt Him to live our will, and disregard God's word. Of course we all have to make those decisions! Christ Jesus is the saviour and forgives us if we believe and ask Him.
My oh my, How Great Thou Art,
Aren't we just the righteous one! What about the passage that reads, "Judge not, lest ye be judged."
Activist in wis Your taking that out of context. You need to do more reading of the Bible and come to
church. We'ed be glad to have you and the Lord will to.
I am a grand father of two Eagle Scouts and several boy/girl scouts. I believe that the homosexuals/pedophiles should not be allowed to be in leadership roles, however a young boy or girl that thinks they are homosexual should be allowed "do not ask do not tell" to be a scout with no bullying/discrimination. Any attempt of a sexual nature upon another scout would be punished by troop directors. I feel that all men/women applying for leadership roles should be screened carefully before being allowed a leadership role. This screening & determination of who is in or out should be left to the troop involved, with the understanding that the Homosexual activists & they are responsible for the welfare of the children & are libel for any instances involving each leader or scout.
@unhappy ... "Most kids" does not equal "all kids." You, like some others, seem to be avoiding the question. What do you want to happen if the teen is outed?
You are right. They are a private organization and the Supreme Court has ruled that they are within their rights not to admit gays. But, their corporate sponsors have the right NOT to contribute money to the BSA. Yet, there are many people who like to claim that cutting off financial support is interfering with the BSA's autonomy, as if the BSA was ENTITLED to corporate funding.
They can't have it both ways. If they want to keep gays out, then they must be prepared to face the public criticism that accompanies their decision. They have a constitutional right to determine their membership, not a constitutional right to be free of adverse consequences.
Activist in Wis,
I'm a sinner saved by Jesus, so I don't feel self righteous. I just shared God's word from Romans in the new testament, you should debate this with Him.
Not only does it say you should not judge.
But it also implores "true Christians" to speak out and bring about those that stray back to the flock.
That's what we're doing.
Just to clear it up...no child in scouting has ever been asked if they are gay or not to my knowledge. No one would ever know unless they decide to tell everyone. They don't have to lie about who they are...just don't talk about it. I don't go talking about my personal life there so why should they feel the need to?
The fact is they want everyone to know and accept it and that just won't happen...at least not anytime soon. And the fact is scouts is no place to be talking about your sex life anyway so it should never be an issue.
dslodge, I agree with every word you wrote 100%!!
They stand to lose more members than they would gain if they allow gays to join. Let the gays start their own boys club. Then everyone is happy.
Protests over the inclusion of African Americans arose early in the program. When Boyce departed, he turned the Boy Scout corporation over to the members of the Executive Board with the stipulation that the Boy Scouts would not discriminate on the basis of race or creed.[9] The BSA established the position that African Americans should be included, but that local communities should follow the same policies that they followed in the school systems. Thus, much of the American South as well as many major northern communities had segregated programs with "colored troops" until the late 1940s. Some troops in the South threatened to leave BSA and burn their uniforms if African American Scouts were permitted, but West was key in overcoming those obstacles.[4]
sea2see
this has nothing to do with a race of people it has to do with the sexuality of people , not sure why the homosexual community keeps playing the race card when it is not even close
Because you can't change your race or your sexual orientation.
It is not about race or creed. It is about something they don't believe in. So at least that part perhaps is based on religion. You can't change what a religious person feels or believes. The best thing is to move on and start their own gay organization instead of forcing others to accept a way of life they don't agree with.
Sea2sea: The difference is that Gay scout leaders are not the same as Black Scout leaders. The BSA was founded on christian ideals. Being black was not considered against those ideals, but segregation was rather of personal preference. Gay Scout leaders are however, in direct violation of those ideals because they are based upon christian principles. There is a big difference. That is why we can't understand you when you compare the two, because you really can't.
AO2MIT: And yet so many people do. I've known people who were once gay and turned straight and those who were straight who turned gay. But I have yet to encounter a white person turn black.
You can change your sexual orientation...look at bisexual people...People are not born gay just as people are not born racist. Love and Hate are both processed in the same area of the brain. All actions performed by people are the direct result of conscious decisions.
absolutely right TK. It's all about education. The way a child is taught when growing up determines their viewpoints in life.
Nope, TK, you are wrong. Gay people are born. It's not a decision. If it were just a decision, NONE of this would be an issue, now would it?
what are your worries about a gay leader? i'd worry about the 'strait' pedophile over a gay leader.
those on the far right.... have GOD on their side.... those on the left have humanity on their side....
I wouldn't care and don't care if anyone is gay... can they contribute to our community... can they fight along side me and protect OUR GREAT FREE country.
will they be a great friend, brother, sister, mother or father? teaching great things... contributing time and energy that most parents don't have time for....OR WILL NOT EVEN GIVE TIME FOR.
Let those hate... .hate. keep fighting the good fight....on behalf of those spat upon...because of the word of God... just like Christians themselves were spat upon at one time. I'd tell my son... be strong for those in the face of hypocrisy... We now have gay men and women who fight for those to condemn them. Stand beside them and say....these are my brothers and sisters.... right or wrong.... its who they are... and its not my judgement to make.
So, even though you don't want gay kids around other kids, You are perfectly fine with gay kids being around gay kids with gay scout leaders?
That you Happy for once again pointing out that Bigot racist Christian ideals still try to out trump true freedom and honest brotherly love and acceptance. The problem and why you will never understand the comparison and why you don't see your errors is its like trying to tell crazy person that they are crazy. THEY JUST DON'T SEE IT.
Deebo - If you have a problem with biblical teachings from God, then take it up with God. If you see God as a bigot, you're telling God He is a bigot. OK. Your definitions of true freedom and honest brotherly love and acceptance and craziness - those are your definitions. You have your opinion. The opinions of others differ from yours.
Homosexuality is not a natural way of life. It is unnatural and I will never accept this as a lifestyle. I know people that are gay and they keep it to themselves and we get along fine. But when you try to get me to accept this perverted so called way of life, wrong!! I don't want adult gays influencing my children that their so called way of life is fine, because it is not. Instead of the BSA go start your own scouting and call it the GSA. And yes, as broke back mountain steve called me, I am a bigot I guess. Whatever, but I will not change.
The change BSA National was proposing wouldn't require your children to be around any gays. If your current chartered org decided to accept LBGT members, you could change your kids to a more conservative troop. Problem solved.
I, for one, am glad that this issue is being debated more fully. I do hope that the BSA consider the recently lifted ban on military members in its' decision making process. Many fine Boy Scouts continue to serve their country by joining the military, so by denying Scouts from being a part of the Boy Scouts because they are gay, they are also essentially saying that our military is wrong in changing their ban. I hope that they also consider the fact that boys generally start in Boy Scouts as little Cub Scouts, who want to be a part of a group of boys, and learn the knot-tying, camping skills and interesting things that they learn in Boy Scouts. They (most, anyway) likely have no idea what their sexual orientation is at the time they start as 5 or 6 year olds. As they stay in Scouts, and becoming teens and realize this about themselves, is it really fair to kick them out if they are honest with themselves and their families? After years of being good Scouts and citizens? I just think that is completely unfair to force a Scout out of the organization and not be allowed to realize his full potential as a Scout based on one aspect of his humanity. I hope that the BSA, like the US Military, makes the right decision to accept gay leaders and boys to continue in the organization. Perhaps the day has come to not have Boy Scouts be sponsored by churches, and be more independant, like Girl Scouts, who have always been independant troops. Then, control of the group isn't forced to make decisions based on a religious doctrine, which it appears it has up until this point.
The military is a National organization whereas Scouting is private and so the 1st Amendment holds in this case. If this was a Non-Alcoholic or Vegetarian organization why would anyone think it would be acceptable to force it to allow people who consume alcoholic beverages or meat to be part of it?
People join and then they change their minds and would like to drink or eat meat when that happens they should opt out as their beliefs no longer mirror the guiding principles of the organization. Yes they will miss out on the many activities of that group but they are free to live by its standards, find or create one that is in line with their new standards. Not force their changed opinion on the others that don't.
Also why would having them removed or excluding them from the group cause them to be prejudice? I’m not saying anything about those who do partake just that having people who are partaking is not conducive to achieving the goals, atmosphere or beliefs of the members of the organization.
Tristam,
Please show me where the original scout code specifically states that homosexuals are not allowed to be members
@ Tristam:
The Boy Scouts may or may not be a private organization, but I'm pretty sure they are exempt from paying taxes under 503C laws, like churches.
If the Boy Scouts choose to maintain their bigotry policy, I hope the Feds yank their 503C status, as well as the 503C status of every church where they have meetings. Let's see how long they last then.
Tristam: The Boy Scout Law includes: helpful, friendly, courteous, kind. Sadly, no one seems to care about the young boys who want to join and be a part of. I'd like to hear you explain to a 6 year old boy why you do not want him in your organization. (And I hope Jesus is listening) Excluding ANYONE is NOT helpful, friendly, courteous or kind. You Sir are a perfect example of the OPPOSITE of these values which is NOT conducive to achieving the goals, atmosphere or beliefs of the members of the organization.
Tristam, can you explain to everybody why, if you are so much for the BSA sticking to its guns and excluding ANYBODY else that doesn't agree to its "standards," that the LDS has so many differences in their program than that of the national program? Can you explain why the BSA tolerates the LDS doing its own thing with respect to the BSA? Hey, why doesn't the LDS create its own little niche group if it cannot adhere to EVERY part of the BSA rules, standards, and guidelines?
How do you feel about the LDS excluding African Americans for so long? Did they allow African Americans in their units when the LDS essentially banned them? Was that OK, too?
lets clear up a few points first. the military was given no choice in the matter. accepting gays was forced on us. if the economy was decent you would see the gov. having yo revert to the draft. gays are a constant problem in the military. the same will occur with the boy scouts. also they are not delaying the decision to line up sponsors. the boy scouts currently recieve 95 % of their funding from 4 major church groups. they have all decided to pull funding should they allow gays. not chosing to be in company of gays does not make you a homophobe. it means you have the moral courage to take a stand. homosexuality is a chosen lifestyle. it is my choice to reject their lifestyle and behavior as perverse but they are still humans and deserve to be respected as humans
"accepting gays was forced on us" says the military guy.
Of course it was. Since when has the military been a democracy?
75th, you are full of hooey. There have always been gays in the military, draft or not. There were gays when I served, there were gays before that (LONG before that), and there are gays now. Last I checked, the military had not ground to a halt. And gays are no more a "constant problem" than anything else...as a matter of fact, it appears that rapes by men of women seems to be the real problem currently. As far as homosexuality being a chosen lifestyle, when did you make the conscious decision to be a heterosexual, assuming you aren't actually closeted? Yeah, you respect "them" - we can tell by how you make stuff up about "them" and call "them" perverts.
And should the BSA make the right decision and lose that 95% funding (feel free to give us your proof of that), it will probably be made up somehow. If not, you might consider that the BSA is having a difficult time with membership lately anyway. But I guess they can get a bunch of their funcing from the LDS and just become the BSM...Boy Scouts of Mormonism.
By the way, it does not take moral courage to stand with bigots.
75th.... I agree with your statement completely. No doubt, you will not see a penny from any of the gay organizations on the support of the BSA unless they have Gay scouts leaders in leadership positions. No way will any of the church groups stay to support the BSA anymore, and the BSA will eventually become another gay organization. Talk about a Nazi regime!.
The military is funded by the federal govt. completely, so that is precisely why it may not come to a full halt. But the BSA is on donor money mostly, and you know that will.
By the way, only liberals say the word "bigot" when they are losing an argument.
"...only liberals say the word 'bigot' when they are losing an argument." Says the person using Nazi, which could not be a more inapt analogy if there ever was one.
You guys are a hoot. The BSA raises the majority of its funds via membership fees, but you would have no way of knowing that, since you apparently know nothing about the BSA. Good job.
By the way, not all church organizations are as homophobic as you obviously are. Oh, sorry...making factual statements probably makes me a liberal, doesn't it?
yall dont pay no attention to culheath, he is a homo and wants everyone to bow down to his beliefs, sorry fag, that will never happen cause the majority of us are normal, we can make life bro which in turn keeps the world going round and round. yall just make your own gay scouting group, problem solved. im a bigot and proud of it cause i will never condone this type of behavior.
Left Wing Nut Job: So do you think that those membership fees will go up or down if people decide to pull out? Then the choice still remains, they are living off of donor money.
No, it means those church organizations are teaching a false gospel. I believe the bible warned people of that even before those church organizations were built. And it makes you foolish, to actually believe they are christians.
Actually, no, Unhappy. Perhaps you should read the Bible. If you are going with the Christian bent, you must tell us all where in the New Testament that Jesus speaks out against homosexuality. Please. We are waiting. And while you are at it, explain to everyone the part about bearing false witness.
Oh, you want to stick to the Old Testament? Well, that would eliminate the "Christian" part, but let's go that direction. When you are done stoning everybody in town for eating pork or shellfish or fish without scales, or whatever else, then you can move on to killing those children that sass their parents. Next, go after those that wear clothing made of multiple types of fabric. If anybody is left, maybe you could move on to those evil gays. Oh, and you must also think polygamy is a righteous thing, correct?
As for membership fees, the BSA just raised them recently, so that might or might not happen, but it would not be due to moneys not coming in from churches, which does not amount to much of the income of the BSA at all. If anything, churches offer units places to meet, but, just as units found places other than schools to meet when they got booted out of most of them, they will find a place.
Seriously, work on your rhetoric, as it is weak. And while you are doing so, remember these words: "Judge not lest ye also be judged." I remember reading that somewhere. Do you?
Left Wing Nut Job - The information in response to your question is found in an earlier posting.
@Left wing: All chartered orgs are given the same freedom to implement their program within certain requirements. LDS troops meet all of those same requirements, but implement the program within their existing primary and youth organizations.
@Captain Jack: The govt doesn't revoke tax exempt status based on who a non profit org accepts or doesn't accept as members. They will revoke or exclude them from accepting grants and fed funds, but never have revoked tax exempt status except when they were clearly running a profit based business.
@Peace 32: This is a perfect example of capitolism...if someone doesn't like the principles of an org, then don't join. Either find a more inclusive scout org or be an innovator and create one yourself. The BSA is perfectly in their rights to decide for themselves what constitutes moral behavior and lifestyle. There are other options if LBGT's remain excluded.
True, but the BSA teaches far more than knots and outdoor skills. The BSA is at heart a christian group with christian values and morals. The homosexual community doesn't have to like it, they just can't be allowed to force their views on everyone else. If homosexuals want their children to learn about knots and outdoor skills, they can take them camping or create their own group for their children to attend.
Just because it started that way doesn't mean it still is. BSA has expanded to include all religions, and many troops are very secular. I was a scout and an atheist (going by their rules I should have been precluded from scouting, but my troop wasn't concerned by such nonsense.)
Exactly, I was a scout and an atheist and sexuality was not even an ingredient in the mix ever. It wasn't talked about or mentioned except on a level that was in the exactly the same manner as would be found in social situations outside of the scouts. I never experienced religious indoctrination of any stripe either. Scouts was about camping skills and growing up to be a trustworthy and helpful person and to find companionship with other boys wanting to be good people.
If you think they are a Christian group do you think they also will not allow Jews or Mormons?
Wrong on both counts. Jewish institutions have used the Scouting program since 1916 and the organization fighting the hardest to keep the ban on gays are the Mormons.
The BSA is not a Christian organization and never was one - anybody that thinks so has no business trying to interject anything into this argument. The BSA allows the participation of Hindus, Buddhists, et al, none of which are Christian. They do think one should believe in a higher being, but that IN NO WAY requires that one be Christian.
I am a Den leader with scouts of Christian, Jewish and Islam beliefs in my 11 scout Den. Completely wrong justicenonexistent!
you hit it on the head. boy scouts is about developing STRONG MORAL LEADERSHIP SKILLS. the libs do not get this as well as the true meaning of the 2nd amendment. its hard for them to understand moral and ethical behavior when they come from a stand built on quicksand. but then you cannot blame them entirely. a combination of absent parenting and government school indoctrination has produced the current cesspool we call america today.
Thanks for the lesson, 75th. Aren't you the person that makes up stuff in order to support your weak arguments. Now that includes lumping together a group of people calling them "libs" or whatever and then speaking of morals and ethics. Yeah, sure. Oh, and that Second Amendment? Read it and try to actually comprehend what it says. But good job in veering off course in order to once again weakly make an attempt at an argument.
Glad to know that you know that all liberals had an absence of parenting and experienced "government school indoctrination" - what a hoot. Thanks for proving your ignorance with every post.
Just a short, quick answer is needed !! No gays in our scouts !!
Johnny N. I 100% agree with your short but spot on answer to "NO GAYS in the SCOUTS."
These terrible sick people have made me withdraw my two boys from a much loved institution that had stood fast and produced some of our finest people.
Why do they derive such pleasure in blackening the name of the scouting association ? Is it a sickness of the mind, with only one gain in mind to demolish a wonderful place for straight boys.
Let the gays join the girle scouts.
Yeah, but those sort of comments expose the stupidity and bias behind all the bigotry.
The GSA has found a way to make all girls and leaders welcome in their organization with no problems I might add.
yes and my grandaughter was exposed to lesbian teaching and recruiting so she left.
75th - I highly doubt that your granddaughter was "exposed to lesbian teaching and recruiting" in the GSA. I was a girl scout leader for several years. There is nothing in the handbook about "lesbian teaching." In fact, there is nothing in there about sexuality at all. It is not discussed or taught, period. We stick to teaching the girls things to help them be leaders and yes, even camping. By the way, I know many girl scout leaders and all I know are heterosexual, so why would we be recruiting the girls to be gay - if that were even possible, which I seriously doubt.
75th is not interested in facts in the least. Just check out all of his postings and that will become obvious; he has no problems at all in making up whatever "facts" he needs to try to make a point.
They can form their own group... The Gay Scouts...
Do you really think this kind of statement helps our cause? Inflammatory statements like this do more damage than good.
Actually the Mormons who are the ones fighting this change to most have stated several times that if the ban is lifted that they will start their own group...
And sometimes, I think I would prefer that to the bureaucracy of the BSA, anyway...
The LDS essentially has their own Scouting organization, anyway. They veer from the program in many respects so that it fits their needs. As pointed out in a previous post, they SHOULD start their own organization, since they don't follow the program. Of course, without the LDS, the BSA would probably fail, which is probably why they don't put their foot down. This is, of course, hypocritical.
the major sponsor of the boy scouts is the southern baptist convention idiot. get you facts straight. thats the problem with you libs. obozos gives you b.s. to spew and you never fact check anything.
You need to check your facts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America
75th, thanks for proving you have no idea what you are talking about. As I said before, every post you prove your ignorance. Next time, try a little fact checking of your own before making a fool of yourself. Oh, and calling me an idiot is a violation of the code. My statement was a fact, yours was a lie. How much experience do you have in Scouting, as either a youth or an adult? I would guess from your comment that would be next to nothing.
The LDS Church is indeed a major sponsor or BSA troops all over the country. They, however, do not "change" the BSA program. They do have some extra requirements for certain LDS oriented badges, and they don't allow boys to become Scouts until 12 instead of 11. But other than that they follow the BSA program very closely.
We are LDS, but our congregation doesn't have enough boys to support a troop, so my boys participate with another troop in our area associated with a Methodists church. They have all the same rules and program requirements as other LDS troops, so I don't know what you are talking about when you say LDS troops "don't follow the program".
And if the LDS Church did decide to break with the BSA, the troops would not miss a beat. The church organization is already in place to support it's own program. Currently they just choose to associate with the national BSA.If the BSA ever fails to be a benefit to the LDS troops, the association would be easily severed on the churches part. But it would be a severe blow to the BSA.
Aside from some differences, as you mention, in age requirements, the primary reason that there is a Varsity program is because of the LDS...few, if any, Varsity units exist outside of the LDS program. Varsity Scouts has a different set of achievements (not rank or merit badges) than the traditional program. If the LDS program disappeared, the BSA would likely drop the Varsity program. The requirements for merit badges and advancement are, as far as I know, pretty much the same (and are also applicable in Varsity Scouts).
Also, to the best of my knowledge, the LDS is the only organization that requires its male youth to belong to the BSA. Which is good for the BSA, as it certainly aids in membership numbers.
You LDS/BSA commentators here are laughable in your ignorance.
@75th: BSA membership roughly 2.4 mil, lds sponsored, roughly 400k, so we are the largest religious sponsor.
@sea: I'd love to see the church press release that says so. We aren't excited about it, but none of the leadership have given any public ultimatims.
@Michelle: one of the few here who are close to the truth about lds troops, but we do have 11 yr old scouts in the church...I am an 11 yr old asst scout master. It falls under the primary and we don't do as many campouts as traditional 11 yr old patrols.
@Left wing: You start off by saying that LDS church has their own scouting org anyways, and then back track to saying the Varsity prog is kept alive by the LDS troops. We don't have our own scouting org. We achieve rank adv and earn merit badges like any other troop. We also incorporate Varsity scouting which has program features and the Denali award, but any troop can run this program. We also often run a Venturing program which is open to all troops too. Please stop spreading misinfo about how the LDS church runs some aberation of scouting. We run the exact same program other troops do. Also, we don't "require" membership from all of our boys. We do encourage participation, but anyone can attend the activities without being a scout.
Perhaps those who are against allowing young gay men to join the boy scouts are worried that they will deprive the scout leaders of their chance to take advantage of the young men in their own troops.
You really can't take such a small percentage of wrongful behavior and apply it to the entire organization. You wouldn't expect it of a female public school teacher with a 14-year-old boy, either, but look at what has, in fact, happened in the news over the last decade. But I wouldn't say that I believe all female public school teachers are child molesters, any more than I can say all boy scout leaders are.
Same could be said then, not all gay men are going to molest every kid they can get their hands on.
The vast majority of pedophiles are heterosexual men, most of them married. Yes, there are some gays and, as anybody can tell by reading the news, some women, that are attracted to youths, but they are the minority. Going by this reasoning, all adults should be banned from being active in the BSA, since any one of them MIGHT molest a youth. Let's see how that works out.
Left Wing Nut Job, the homosexuals are also a minority. Or you didn't know that?
And that is the problem. The right to be accepted in this organization has nothing to do with any fundamental right, so why a minority wants to impose their views against the will of a vast majority?
I do not have a problem with gays, never had, but I do not like when something is forcing me to change the way I see sexuality. What is that "gay and proud" crap? Is that a personal achievement to be proud of? Be proud you did well in life, you saved or help someone in need, be proud you raised a family well or you invented something useful, anything but not that!!!
Actually, going by this reasoning, the safest leader for a troop of Boy Scouts would be a lesbian woman! No worries about sexual molestation there!
Nico, try reading comprehension. It will serve you better.
Nico75,
"What is that "gay and proud" crap? Is that a personal achievement to be proud of? Be proud you did well in life, you saved or help someone in need, be proud you raised a family well or you invented something useful, anything but not that!!!"
No. It is in reference to the fact that being gay is nothing to be ashamed of or hidden from society.
A Christian group with Christian values, and how long has this Christian group hid molesting leaders. I have seen more talks on lifting the gay ban, but no one realy wants to talk about these "Straight" God fearing leaders who have molested and destroyed lives. What is worse, a gay man who wants to teach knots and camping or a straight man who "wants" your son???
ill bet the scouts havent been covering up nearly as long as the catholic church has
Just as same as the Catholic Church, the BSA are covering up. Don't point fingers at another issue to break from the issue at point. As with both, it has been covered up from the moment they both started!
It is not right to pin the crimes of a few and the grave mistakes of past leadership on an entire organization who was just as upset about these malicious crimes and the deplorable way leadership handled it. So stop using that to further your own agenda and trampling my 1st Amendment rights.
@ Tristam:
By continuing to support either the church or the Boy Scouts after learning about their sexual exploits with children, you are condoning such behavior.
Your 1st Amendment rights extend only insofar as you're willing to pay for them. If your organization is tax free, you don't get 1st Amendment rights which are biased toward groups of people.
Which 1st amendment rights and how are they being trampled by inclusion of gays in scouts?
The BSA is NOT a Christian organization.
Yes they are.
Well, you got a thumbs up from another ignorant soul - good for you. Any idea how many non-Christian members there are in the BSA? Any idea how the rules for religious services note that mention of a specific deity is to be avoided? Any idea what you people are talking about? The BSA includes the belief in a "higher being" as part of its "system" but no specific "higher being" is designated, including Jesus Christ. I suggest you do a search on the Web for "Scout's Own" and see what you come up with.
It amazes me how many people post things as facts on these board when they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
@princess: they did hide abuse. 20 years ago and longer, they chose to save the face of the org and not ensure pedophiles were brought to justice, but it has been a common theme amoung civic organizations helping youth. How do you bring justice without opening yourself up for litigation and having bad press? They chose wrong, but many organizations were doing it and we are hearing about it now. It is literally becoming a topic of group/organizational based psychology. For 15 yrs now, the bsa does criminal background checks with a mandatory abuse reporting ethic. It has one of the best and longest running ethics based teaching programs for youth. It is and always has been an amazing program, and it now running along with an equal youth safety program. An org can be forgiven and the BSA deserves forgiveness.
@Captain Jack: They have owned up to their failures in the abuse cases and instituted one of the most robust youth safety systems out of all of the juvenile based service field. They want to make up for their mistakes by being in the front of the pack now. Plus, paying taxes isn't what gives you the 1st amend right. All amendments apply to all of our citizens irrespective of their tax status. Charitable tax exempt status just means you are running a net zero. You pay your employees and give everything back to your members and the community, which the BSA does. That doesn't limit the BSA's freedom of speech and to limit its membership. The 1st amend isn't conditional paying taxes.
@cwater: BSA has christian roots by affiliation, but is non denominational and multicultural by their own definition.
@left wing: the last numbers I heard was 70% of chartered org were churches, so 30% give or take. That is where their issue of defining morality is difficult. Most of their CO's are christian or bible based, so will they base their definition off of the bible, who knows. Even if it changes to what BSA national proposed, I don't see it as affecting the church based CO's. It is whether or not they leave on principle. I am hoping not, because it won't force them to accept any members they don't want to.
before they make any serious decision they need to take a real look at what happened to the the canada version of the boy scouts after they opened up to any freak that draws a breath
if they go the way of the canadien scouts its will be the slow death of real scouting
BS. The Canadian scouting controversy had nothing to do with gay being included. Try reading something other than the crap out out by the Family Research Council.
The Boy Scouts in the UK (you know...the place where it was founded) does not ban gays. Seems to be working fine with them. Good luck with that homophobia and spreading falsehoods.
Loved scouting as a child. Organized descrimnation in this day and time cannot continue. I was interested that not one face of color is seen in the photos with this story. And that is the face of Scouting. If they want to be a PRIVATE group then stop accepting government handouts and United Way dollars. Do it on your own and I wont say a word. Do it with public dollars and charitable donations from agencies who supposedly are there for all and you are wrong. I am ceasing Monday a rather signrificant payroll deduction to my local United Way and will tell them why. When Scouting is open to the entire community then I will reconsider. It just confuses me that a group who says they embrace a Christian ethic advances open attack on people who are also Gods children.
actually jager the bsa gets 95% of their operating budget from 4 major church groups. they get absolutely no gov. funding anymore. so in essence they are a private org. they are a 501c3 org. same as media matters . you know the left wing of the democrat party.
Since you keep lying about this (probably because you simply have no idea what you are talking about), here are the numbers for 2008:
Fees $ 79,761,000
Supply operations $ 19,339,000
Contributions and bequests $ 15,255,000
Retirement benefits trust $ 10,797,000
Primary trading post sales $ 6,559,000
Magazine publications $ 2,025,000
Total Income $133,736,000
Oooh, sorry. Just a little off with that 95%. But don't worry, as that church money will make up a bigger percentage at the current rate, since corporate sponsors are dropping them due to the practice of discrimination.
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/55782402-78/scouts-church-national-gay.html.csp
Left Wing Nut Job:
As you can see, these are the numbers for "2011" NOT "2008". I suggest you keep up to date. 75th is correct.
Wrong - but thanks for proving my point. You people have NO idea what you are talking about. I don't care if 100% of the sponsors are churches (and they are not), the lie is that 95% of the OPERATING BUDGET (try learning reading comprehension) comes from churches. I doubt that it is even 9.5%.
Wow, you can't make this stuff up, folks.
@Jager: If you look at left wing's numbers, I don't see one category for govt grants/subsidies. That is because they probably don't get them anymore due to their stance on gays, and not to mention girls. There are alot more girls being excluded than LBGT's. (Girls can join Ventures.)
@Unhappy: There are no numbers in the article you attached about donations, just sponsorship, which is different. Sponsoring is hosting or chartering a troop. Donating is giving money or real estate to the BSA.
@Left wing: You corrected pasted the bsa balance sheet, but incorrectly interpreted them. About 55% of the budget comes from fees or registration, which most churches, assist in paying (LDS pays 100% of that fee.) If 70% of the membership is from churches, that is a significant amount of the 79 mil comes from churches. Also if you are worried about corporate donations dropping, that category in total is 15 mil or 5% of their total, so even if it drops by half, they are 2.5% down on budget, so no big sweat.
At the present time, women are not allowed to take our sons camping in Boy Scouts. If they were, I would not send my teenage sons on campouts. Have you noticed all of the problems with women teachers and teenage boys in the news over the last few years? So why would I send them with a gay leader, if I wouldn't send them with a woman? Similarly, girls are not allowed to camp out with the boys. I would no more want to send my sons camping with gay boys than with girls. This isn't a slam on gays. If you had two boys who were gay in your troop, would you really allow them to sleep in the same tent? No? How do you make rules about that? Would parents allow 14-year boys and girls to sleep in the same tent? I think not. How is this any different? I would like to hear from the parents of gay boys now. Would you allow your 14-year-old son to share a tent with another gay boy? Because that is what you are asking for the privilege of doing. By the way, I would include not having premarital sex as part of being morally straight. If you are just fine with teenagers having sex, then you are really asking for membership in the wrong organization, whether you are all for homosexuality or not.
I read your post..substitute black, hispanic, etc and bet it reads the same. Kids at the age have no idea what their sexual orientation is or will be. Scouting has covered up "straight" leaders engaging in these behaviors just the Catholic Church has done. Sounds like maybe you should wrap them in bubble wrap and just save them from this big ole world. Otherwise expose them to the real world so that maybe your children will be prepared to face the world they will live in versus the fantasy land you want.
So, you would send a 14-year-old boy and a 14-year-old girl on a campout together and let them share a tent? Should a parent not have enough discrimination to choose not to put their child into a situation like that? Address my post. I have homosexual friends. I would not send my child on an overnight with one of my homosexual friends of the same gender any more than I would send them on an overnight with a straight one of the opposite gender. Would you? Do you even have children?
A boy is over ten times more likely to by molested by a man than a woman. And its a 20 to 1 chance that a man molesting a boy identifies as straight (attracted to adult women) over gay (attracted to adult men). So, if you are worried about your son and sex, then sending him with male scout leaders is not protecting him at all.
yep two sons and three grandsons. I just am not as scared of the world as you are. There are gay leaders and teenage scout members. Get over it. They are there. And they arent hurting your kiddos. And they will face gay bosses, gay business relationships, gay neighbors and you may never know it but they are there. Your homophobia is a shame because your kids wont be prepared to deal with the world they will face as adults. and what in the world does the female camper have to do with this? That isnt even part of the debate. Girl Scouts do just fine and no one has said merge the groups.
"what in the world does the female camper have to do with this?"
Sexual orientation has to do with it... Boys aren't allowed to camp with females. They might make a bad decision to have sex. Similarly, if two gay boys camp together, they might decide to have sex. Do you remember being a teenager? You don't put teenagers into this kind of situation.
I am not a homophobe. As I have already said, I have gay friends. I just do not choose to send my boys camping with people of the opposite sexual orientation, regardless of whether it is a male or female. We are not only talking about leaders, but the boys themselves. If one of my children decides he is gay, I certainly won't send him camping with his boyfriend. That would be putting him in a situation where he could end up having sex.
I just realized that the BSA does allow female leaders, but my chartering organization doesn't. Sorry for the confusion there. See my post a few up.
1) You don't seem to have much trust in your kid, and,
2) The world would come to a screeching halt if he did have sex with his boyfriend? Moreover,
3) Why would you care?
1) What does trust have to do with it? Were you never a teenager? Raging hormones frequently override common sense when teenagers are in a compromising situation.
2) The world has nothing to do with it. I fear for his soul.
3) Because I am his mother, and have been entrusted by God to teach and protect him until he gets married to a woman.
It is obvious that you don't believe in God, and have no consideration for those who do, but private organizations have the right to religious freedom. Start your own club if you don't like ours.
As you have realized after making a false post, the BSA does not prohibit women from camping. It does require, however, 2-deep leadership. While your unit may ban women from camping, that would be pure ignorance on their part. If your unit is worried about women on campouts, it would cause me to wonder if you are practicing Safe Scouting in general. Are all of your leaders trained in Youth Protection, as required by the BSA? Sure doesn't sound like it, or you would not have an issue with women camping with your troop. Is the leadership aware that the vast majority of pedophiles are heterosexual males? Does that cause any consternation at your Troop Committee meetings? I assume they are the ones making these rules, as that is their job (not that of the Scoutmaster or his/her assistants). Does your troop also prohibit women from being Scoutmasters? Sounds like you need a visit from a good Commissioner. And lots of training.
By the way, if your son decides he wants to join a crew that has female members are you going to have a hissy fit and refuse to allow it?
assume much?
Great post rebuttaler.
yeah jager better read more. just yesterday an 8 yr old girl was found pregnant in mexico but she didnt know about sex.
Not only are female leaders allowed, but girls are also allowed in Scouts and on trips (and when girls go camping, it is required there be a female leader on the trip). My teenage daughter has worked the last two summers at Boy Scout camp, and my son and daughter will both work there this year. As Left Wing Nut Job said, this is why every leader is required to regularly repeat Youth Safety Protection training, and two-deep leadership (at a minimum) is REQUIRED. You can't look at a man and say "he's a predator" - if that were the case, Jerry Sandusky would have been stopped years ago. But you can use common sense, open lines of communication, education, and safety training to keep kids safe.
BSA RIP :-(
"Nasty" - the author calls the debate over this nasty?
What's nasty is the acts performed by those being debated.
BlackMan, don't be so insecure man!
... do you have a problem with the truth?
Letting gay men into the boy scouts is like letting a hungry shark into a pool full of children. Why chance it? Have we become this dumb here in the USA to let a man that is gay get into the scouts just because we don't want to hurt his feelings. WHAT ABOUT THE KIDS!
Tell that to the scouts molested by the nice straight Scout Master!!!
randyr,
That's a pretty apt metaphor, considering neither sharks nor gay men have much interest in children.
I don't agree. I don't want my children to go camping with a gay leader, but I disagree with your take on this. I don't believe there will necessarily be an increase of sexual activity if they do have gay leaders, but I want mentors who reinforce the morals I am trying to instill in my children, and a homosexual can't do that, as I disagree with their morals.
That's a fairly ridiculous assumption on your part that gay people are somehow less able to control their impulses or desires or even that gays are interested in children as sexual objects. Why do think such weird things...who told you that and why did you believe it?
Gay men are no more interested in young stuff than men in general...which is not to say there are men who like seeing females dressed up in school uniforms like all that Japanese porn. But to suppose there is a highly percentage of such things among gays is absurd.
So please do tell culheath what are homosexual boys attracted to ? I mean the push is to allow gays in, so that must mean that the homosexual boys that everyone is fighting for to get in must already know they are gay.
it kinda looks that way. america is slowly turning in to a cesspool.
yes it is 75th , rather quickly the last few years
"Letting gay men into the boy scouts is like letting a hungry shark into a pool full of children. Why chance it?"
That alone is enough reason not to send kids to a Catholic church or school.
The people who keep asking for "more time to consider the implications of this massive change" are such hypocrites. If they don't stop themselves instantly after saying this nonsense, they invariably go on to reveal that they simply oppose any change, period, end of story. There's no need for the BSA to consider the implications of the change, because all the change consists of is letting individual charters decide for themselves. There will be different implications for those that admit gay kids and for those that do not, and different implications in different communities. All the national organization is being asked to do is get out of the way of local charters that do not want to discriminate. And having been forced to discriminate up to now, they know all the implications of that. They may not know what they're getting, but they know what they've had. A lot of hurt parents, a lot of hurt kids, and a lot of hurt consciences at scout headquarters.
Well, it has worked for individual chartering organizations so far, where it comes to not having women camp with boys. In our church, we don't have co-ed campouts, and women cannot be Scoutmasters or Assistant Scoutmasters, or go camping with the boys. I actually didn't realize, until a minute ago when I looked it up, that women could serve in those positions. As long as the chartering organizations can make up their own rules with regard to homosexuals in the organizations, I don't see a problem for my own children.
However, I do see one big problem with this decision being left up to the chartering organizations, rather than having it be part of the national organization's rules. The chartering organizations will suddenly have to shoulder the burden of law suits from homosexuals who want to be included, and most will not be able to handle the financial burden. They will have to dissolve their charters, and the BSA will lose their largest contributors. I expect it won't take long before it puts the whole organization out of business.
rebuttaler, I would suggest that you no longer involve yourself in Scouting outside of, perhaps, dropping off your kids. It is plainly obvious that you have never bothered with training, so you have no business speaking about Scouting as if you know what you are talking about, nor should you be involved in being any kind of leader. Training is a very important part of Scouting, and if you can't be bothered with it then you should just stay out. Women have been allowed in all positions for YEARS. It's a shame that your narrow-minded unit is apparently run by misogynists; most units are delighted to have any qualified adults serve as leaders. Trained leaders. Of course, I guess if you want boys to grow up thinking women should be kept in their place, your unit is on the money.
I was a Boy Scout in the 40's and feel it should remain as it is. Seems like most crackpots today want to make everyone be politically correct(as they see it) and just give up their freedom to think for themselves. I would never support any organiztion that forced them to change to be politically correct. If this odd ball group wants to have their own GBSA then so be it but don't force everybody else to accept their views. Religion is only part of it. Many young men have been abused by these people and now you want it make it easier. Crazy!!!
What year was it that black kids were first permitted?
this is not about race, homosexuals are not a new race they are people with a differant sexual preference ...not even close
It's not sexual preference, it's sexual orientation, and it's just as intrinsic as race. It's not a choice.
sorry justin you homosexuals have not discovered a new race you have discovered you dont like what normal people do
Our 3 sons are Eagle Scouts, due in part to great men who led and taught them in scouting over the years. Scouts help teach a boy how to become a good man, including outdoor skills, vocational interests, service and morals. Scouts are age 8-18 and should not be involved in sexual activity- they are just boys. That's probably the reason "morally straight" is part of the scout law. Sex before marriage is sinful and damaging (not to mention the basis of many of our national problems today). Too many today think that anyone can do anything and change anything and take anything they want to. That is the behavior of bullies. Gays want everyone to respect their beliefs. They need to respect the beliefs of others- including BSA. A gay leader has no place in BSA. There are many places he can serve his community, but BSA needs to protect the boys from physical harm and deviant teachings. I was watching our 4 year old grandson build block towers the other day. His 2 year old brother kept knocking them down. Finally the 4 year old said, "Build your own!!!" Amen.
Funny, these are the same words used when Blacks and women wanted to be a part of BSA.
How can you call someone morally straight who discriminates his fellow man. Apparently you heard what you wanted to hear and saw what you wanted to see but the big picture escaped you.
Teaching intollerance does not teach morals.
Scouts are age 8-18 and should not be involved in sexual activity- they are just boys. Agreed
"morally straight" see point one
Sex before marriage is sinful and damaging (not to mention the basis of many of our national problems today). NO BASTARDS IN BSA?
Gays want everyone to respect their beliefs. They need to respect the beliefs of others- including BSA. Are we to respect the beliefs of terrorists too, what about pedophiles, calling something that is wrong a belief to protect it from being questioned is wrong. Gays want to be respected as people their beliefs are not at issue.
BSA needs to protect the boys from physical harm and deviant teachings. Yes and those things are statistically more likely to come from a straight white man.
Back to the days of whites only lunch counters?
Build your own! JIM CROW comes to the BSA!
Or, you can actually move to your own country as well, you won't have to worry about a population explosion as - guess what, you cannot multiply - there you have it. Homosexuality maybe part of the world's plan, but it is not part of original creator's plan. Because of this, the whole world will never support you. There is compassion for you, but that is it.
amen to that
reader - honest post.
Hey, I don't want you to respect my beliefs. But if one day you woke up and started being a little less intolerant and judgmental, it sure would be a nice way to start your day! Good things happen when good people open their hearts and minds.
I'm curious though, do you think even one of your three Eagle Scout sons might be cool enough to respect me, as a fellow Eagle Scout? If not, I hope they're all good enough men to refrain from demanding outright discrimination against me and thousands of other boy scouts.
- just another loyal and brave Eagle Scout
The Boy Scout rule is clear: No males sleeping with males, unless it's the scout leader buggering a kid. Why would they want to change?
After all this time thinking about it, you may as well just forget it Scouts. What kind of message is this waffling sending to gay Boyscouts even if you end up accepting them? "Well, we aren't completely convinced that you gay kids are wretched little perverts who should not be allowed around the other kids, so I guess, maybe, we will allow you to exist after all, you're lucky!" Great...
well the sooner they learn that even if they do bully their way in the chances of them ever being truly accepted is pretty slim
The Gay agenda is not one of acceptance....it is one of power and control. They want the power to make heterosexuals know that they are unethical and immoral. That they are the ones who are not normal.........that homosexuality is the new normal.........and you must march lockstep with them in their parade, or you are depriving them of their right to usurp their lifestyle choices over your rights to decide whom you choose to associate with. That would be the control part, to take away you right to make simple choices........"Resistance is futile!"
that's the liberal way. The liberals want to force their way on to everyone. And if you oppose the liberals, then the real hate and bigotry comes out in full color.
"Nick1970-3617005
that's the liberal way. The liberals want to force their way on to everyone. And if you oppose the liberals, then the real hate and bigotry comes out in full color."
All projection.
So intolerant. Gay scouts & scoutmasters simply want fair treatment, and not be discriminated against if their sexual orientation becomes known to others. It's not bullying, use your head. It's much like white people getting pissed that Affirmative Action plays favorites with minorities and devalues their achievements and simply wanting the system to work fairly for EVERYONE. BTW, I'm a former boy scout (straight).
We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
gay is not a right since the Creator spoke> Lev 18:22
it is a choice and once acted upon and the consequences are outlined in Romans 1:21-32
People who quote a 2,000 year old book in defense of their modern-day position are funny.
Funny, sometimes. Pathetic always.
They could chage their name to The Whatever Scouts of America.
the 'confused scouts of America'
That's next! Then they will say that calling it the "BOY" scouts is "DISCRIMINATION aginst women and phhaaagggss"
how about the hershey highway explorers
Tent erection will take on new rules too?
Careful there, Ben There Done Dat, your ignorance and vulgarity are showing. Can't think of anything, other than stupid remarks like that to offer?