If Jesus had a hand gun he would have made a bigger impression than he did with a whip.

I can't think of anything in mainstream protestant liturgy which would support coming to worship services "packing." I KNOW it wasn't a part of my Presbyterian upbringing.

Maybe bringing weapons to church is part of the dogma of non-mainstream Churches, like the Frisbee-terians ( who believe that when you join the church your common sense flies up on the roof, and you can't get it down? )

Just sayin' ...

;-)

.

That God dude wasn't so much, or the Jews would have had Uzis longggggggg before now, and Allah most likely would not have got off the ground. Ironic, the "Cradle of Civilization" turned into
"The Valley of Death". Don't think I would count on God/Jesus too much.

praise the lord and pass the ammunition !

Yeah, this is gonna be good.

This just shows the level of paranoia that exists in these hard-cores; not even Jesus can protect them.

Unbelievable.... and of course this is all in 'red' states....

I got it! I got it! Listen - let's have prayer services at Gun Shows!! One stop shopping.

If a man strikes you, you must turn the other holster.

It's time to face facts, it's an arms race!

Why don't we just skip all this wimpy stuff and begin arming with rocket launchers because you never know what may burst thru your door in the middle of the night! Of course, cops need tanks and why not use those SCUDS left over from Iraq's "Shock and Awe?"

DumbFarmBoy wrote:

"Should I remind you that one of the Patron Saints of Liberalism, The Revered Dr. Tiller was shot at his church, on a Sunday morning. Two reasons, the guy knew he would be there, and no one would be able to stop him...."

Interesting that you cite the premeditated murder of a doctor, in his Church during worship services, by a"Pro Life" activist who shot the doctor in the head, point blank, ... and yet you reserve your only sarcastic and disparaging remarks for the murder victim, Dr. Tiller, and for Liberalism.

This speaks volumes about your own personal character and mindset.

Peter would have shot off the guards ear and you would have got, "He who lives by the gun shall die by the gun."

Hm, really? Because if you recall the story of the arrest of Jesus, Peter used his sword and cut off the ear of one of the arresting soldiers. Jesus put the ear back on and told Peter to lay down his sword.

Of course that is an entirely different situation than a person defending themselves against a murderer, be it in church or outside of the church

Hold my communion wine and watch this.

Just think - instead of that stupid crosss; they could have executed Jesus by firing squad!

Robert - Idology is a wonderful thing -Dumb Farm Bot brings up somebody that was killed by a Right WIng CHristian nut and blames it on Liberals. It's like poking out your left eyes and claiming you cfan finallly seee clearly. Or wrecking the economy and the country's standing in the world and blaming it on Obama. FOr the best example of ideology run amok it's useful to look at China in the 1960s. It looked like that's where Santorum was trying to take the REpublican PArty. ANd by the way, has it occcurred to any of you Repubicans what miserable shape you are in. Just think back to your nominating process and the dismal candidates you at one time or another thought would be the one. - Herman Cain, Rick PERrry, Micchelle Bachmannn, the aforementioned Santorum. AM I leaving someone out?. They alll had a chance at the brasss ring until your stellar and charismatic Mitt ROmney took it alll home.

If I need a weapon to attend your church, I'd rather not attend. Wasn't Jesus all about peace and love?

Arkansas joins a handful of other states, including South Carolina, Wyoming and Louisiana, that allow guns in churches

Yep, hillbillies and rednecks.

dumbfarmboy............the moniker is not for nothing. More desperation at the cost of reason.

Ironically with the allowance of guns by laws in unexpected places eventually Republicans will be forced to allow guns in its own activities which they now prohibit. Such as the Tampa convention where they all stood up for gun possession but prohibited them at Republican activities. Everybody should have a gun just not around other Republicans!

This law is unconstitutional. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

DumbFarmBoy

And the way some of the Anti-Church Atheists rattle on, if I was a church going person I might be a bit concerned as well.

You sure are on a tear to live up to your handle, aren't you.

Atheists don't kill people. They don't have any reason to. No imaginary friend to provide live or die dogma.

Pretty soon they will be toting guns even for a visit to the toilet? No place is safe for such people. You talk about crazies ... all of these gun advocates ARE CRAZY.. Put them all in nut house perhaps in another country or some far off island... can we still send them to Australia? According to recent stats and claims the NRA membership is approx 5 mil ... pack all of them off to Nebraska or Montana and let them have a right to gun state. No restrictions No rules. I bet you in 5 years they will halve the population on their own!

I love the ignorance in the thread so far.

This law only transfers the authority to decide whether someone can possess a gun to an individual church; which is private property. It does not grant the right of people to carry into a church without the church's permission.

The GIs of World War 1, World War 2, Korean War, Vietnam, etc went to church carrying their guns.

I don't think Jesus cares if you show up in a tank.

Are you suggesting that America is now in a state of war and everybody should be armed at all times?

Conservatives have remade Christianity to suit their own warped, twisted ideology. They are not Christians and it's time we made them aware of that fact. They worship all that is violent, polluting, toxic, selfish and evil. The antichrist is not a person it is a political movement known as conservatism.

If the gun is concealed, how would people know if you were carrying it into a church, with or without the permission of the politicians of the State of Arkansas (or any other state for that matter?)

This is another dumb law by a group of politicians trying to pander to what they believe are the majority of their constituants. It is as stupid as passing a law allowing grass to be green, clouds to be grey or white, trees to grow and children to laugh in school.

Yeah, the law made it so the churches could decide for themselves. The point everyone is looking at though is that someone thought this was a big enough priority to move ahead of other business; that there was a cry out for this. That, and picturing a church meeting to discuss who will get to carry during services. Nice.

"...clinging to guns and religion..." Yeah. Whoever said that didn't know what he was talking about <snark>.

dirp, the difference is you couldn't be jailed or fined for someone figuring out your lawn is green. Or not green. But yeah, I doubt the current change in law made any difference to those who feel they need to be armed at all times, anyway.

Church is the perfect place for guns where they can be worshiped as the gun enthusiasts intended.

Jesus and God are LOVE; all things concerning them relates to loving others. Guns show that you don't even trust others, let alone LOVE them. Most of the people on this thread are clueless. Read Proof of Heaven by a former athiest, Dr. Eben Alexander. I dare you!!!

For the record, NO GOOD will come of this decision.

I beleive they were carrying and Jesus told Peter to put his sword away and healed the man Peter had wounded. Y'all remember that?

These quotes speak for themselves. This is the mindset of these far right wingers. these are the people I fear the most in this world

_______________________________________________________________________________

Americans For The Removal Of Illegals

The GIs of World War 1, World War 2, Korean War, Vietnam, etc went to church carrying their guns.

I don't think Jesus cares if you show up in a tank.

Just remember to show up!

I THINK THE JESUS I WAS TAUGHT ABOUT CARES VERY VERYVERYVERYVERYVERYVERYVERY MUCH

_____________________________________________________

DumbFarmBoy

Should I remind you that one of the Patron Saints of Liberalism, The Revered Dr. Tiller was shot at his church, on a Sunday morning. Two reasons, the guy knew he would be there, and no one would be able to stop him.

And the way some of the Anti-Church Atheists rattle on, if I was a church going person I might be a bit concerned as well.

__________________________________________________________

I'M VERY ANTI-RELIGION. ALL RELIGION IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL IN THIS WORLD. MORE PEOPLE HAVE DIED IN THE NAME OF RELIGION. I DON'T EVEN OWN A GUN, BUT YET YOUR RELIGIOUS FOLKS OWN ARSENALS

To Bill Crane: "Yep. Just what Jesus would have wanted. If the Apostles had been carrying, he would have never been taken by the Romans..."

The disciples WERE armed. When the soldiers came for him, Jesus told Peter to put away his sword.

The bible never said that resistance to crime was immoral. Church members should not have to be sitting ducks for any and every wacko that comes along...

To continue my post above: If I and my family were sitting in church and some idiot would come in shooting at random, I'd not hesitate to shoot the perp to save my family, even if I go to "Hell" for it.

I guess nobody has thought that "Thy will be done" has now been thrown out the window. And what does it say about their belief that God would allow someone to come in a shoot up a church? It sounds more like a crisis of faith.

Ladybug, I've read it and no proof what so ever was provided. Just because someone claims to be an ex atheist that has now found Jebus doesn't mean they are telling the truth about either aspect of their story. More often than not they are con men trying to sell books to the easily manipulated, namely YOU.

Religion was invented when the first con man met the first sucker. "Hey, there is an invisible man floating around in the sky who talks to me everyday and he wants you to give me money so I can tell you what he wants you to do." Yeah, sounds like a con to me.

Robert in Oregon

DumbFarmBoy wrote:

"Should I remind you that one of the Patron Saints of Liberalism, The Revered Dr. Tiller was shot at his church, on a Sunday morning. Two reasons, the guy knew he would be there, and no one would be able to stop him...."

Interesting that you cite the premeditated murder of a doctor, in his Church during worship services, by a"Pro Life" activist who shot the doctor in the head, point blank, ... and yet you reserve your only sarcastic and disparaging remarks for the murder victim, Dr. Tiller, and for Liberalism.

This speaks volumes about your own personal character and mindset.

#1.12

SDN

dumbfarmboy............the moniker is not for nothing. More desperation at the cost of reason.

#1.21

mj-1451595

DumbFarmBoy

You sure are on a tear to live up to your handle, aren't you.

Atheists don't kill people. They don't have any reason to. No imaginary friend to provide live or die dogma.

#1.25

@ dongwork4yuda

DumbFarmBoy

Should I remind you that one of the Patron Saints of Liberalism, The Revered Dr. Tiller was shot at his church, on a Sunday morning. Two reasons, the guy knew he would be there, and no one would be able to stop him.

And the way some of the Anti-Church Atheists rattle on, if I was a church going person I might be a bit concerned as well.

I'M VERY ANTI-RELIGION. ALL RELIGION IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL IN THIS WORLD. MORE PEOPLE HAVE DIED IN THE NAME OF RELIGION. I DON'T EVEN OWN A GUN, BUT YET YOUR RELIGIOUS FOLKS OWN ARSENALS

#1.37

First of all, to every one here, I am in fact a stone cold Atheist (I am just not an Anti-Church type, like Dong). Reason and Logic (Science) are my Religion.

My comment got the desires response. I purposely worded my comment to get a visceral, emotional response, from you emotional compromised, non thinking liberals.

Also, I find it humorous that my comment, was collapsed. Again, evidence that liberal people read with their emotions and not their Brains.

@ Robert, you have absolutely no understanding of my character or mindset, even though your Elitist Mentality tells you otherwise. I was merely pointing out to the rest of the crowd here that a Church is no longer the "Sanctuary" against violence that it once was. And I was using the most high profile case I could think of.

@ SDN, Spoken Like a true liberal, Change the Subject, Ignore the Facts, and Name Call.

@ MJ, of course Atheist kill people, they do it all the time. One's religion has nothing to do with the fact that one is capable or predisposed to murder.

@ dong, And if you think "ALL RELIGION IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL" Then you obviously have never studied Buddhism, Hindu, other Eastern Religions. But yeah, I can go along with the violence of the religions God of Abraham. Those were violent people people who created Him.

I no longer live on a farm, hence the "Dumb" part. The worst thing I ever did was get a Degree in Mechanical Engineering, move to the City and have to live in and amongst bigoted, myopic, inane morons like you. (see, I can name call too)

Yeah, like police stations and shooting ranges. Y'know, real gun-free zones...

Too bad the world is not a perfect place without the crazies and the evil minded where everyone behaves in the same peaceable way Conjuring Cat.

Doe that include the psycho that killed two former military? One of them a SEAL, and both carrying weapons?

of course there are no killers who are licensed to carry.

Psychos will go into areas where guns are outlawed because there is little to no resistance

I feel pretty safe on a plane where guns are outlawed.

Now we can be like the Muslims and pray with our assault rifles.

Sam Adams - but on that plane everyone has gone through metal detectors, pat downs, their luggage has been X-rayed and pawed through so you're on pretty equal ground with everyone else on the flight. I don't know of many churches, private homes, shopping malls, schools or back alleys with that same level of security.

While they've named a few states where the law explicitly states you can carry a licensed concealed weapon into a church, most others simply never restricted it specifically so there's no need to revise the law to allow it.

The minute you publicize a "no weapons" zone, be it a school, a political gathering, a professional sporting event or a theater with a "no weapons" sign on the front door, you make an announcement to the crazies and evil: defenseless, target-rich environment HERE!

samadams - air marshals, pilots, and law enforcement officers carry guns on airplanes. I would be very surprised to learn of a commercial plane taking off without at least one gun aboard (even an empty plane shuttling to another location.)

2kmaro - You are correct that many state laws are silent concerning guns in church. Indiana is one.

2kmaro:

That last paragraph. It takes a special kind of perspective to dream of such things as "a target-rich environment."

Perhaps you could contemplate a situation where a single bad guy faces off against 6 marginally trained civilians in a crowded environment. Did you know that chances of hitting the 'perp' are about one in eleven? Have you ever considered where the other ten rounds will end up? I didn't think so.

Or does it simply not matter to those with "Matt Dillon" fantasies?

I was once told by a "card-carrying nra member" that it was her "God-given right to carry a gun".

Somehow this all seems sacrilegious to me. God+guns = lunacy/satan

What do y'all think?

I feel pretty safe on a plane where guns are outlawed.

This is not true - there are limits to having them on aircraft.

twodogsloving,

I agree, what a combination, guns and religion. One more reason I have nothing to do with church and organized religion.

Now we can be like the Muslims and pray with our assault rifles.

they're aren't called the "Christian Taliban" for no reason...

Good one Lois, glad to hear you're halfway home!

How many of you people who are making these statements about how a "true Christian" would never have a gun have ever depended on a police officer to protect you? How many believe we shouldn't have a military force to protect you from other countries that would be happy to come over here and kill you, your family, and friends? Should the Christians in the military service throw away their weapons and hold a bible up in front of them when the enemy is shooting at them?

Vince, I think you mean no true Christian would ever murder someone (anywhere, not just a church). Its one thing to offer the other cheek when struck, its another thing entirely to offer your second child to a deranged murderer after said person eviscerates your first child in front of your eyes.

Do you wear a seat belt? Or live in the hope that no one will ever crash into your car?

Do you check the expiration date on food in your fridge? or live in the hope that your immune system will save you from poison?

Do you carry a gun? or live in the hope that if you ever needed to defend your life, your hands will be enough?

Do not equate guns with anti-christian values. Equate murder, rape and assault with anti-christian values.

Vince: Is preserving your own life- or giving yourself better odds when Adam Lanza or James Holmes The Joker come for blood- somewhat important? LOL. Or would you rather be unarmed and have no chance?

Anybody show up with a gun or two, Jesus will be first out the door.

Vince-545056

George Tiller was killed on May 31, 2009, shot to death during worship services at the Reformation Lutheran Church in Wichita, he was killed by a so called true Christian!

Maybe he would be alive if he was allowed to carry?

NoLiberty: Do you wear a gas mask, or live in the hope that the air is breathable?

Do you wear a rubber ducky water float ring around your waist, or live in the hope that it will not flood?

Do you wear a bib at all-you-can-eat spaghetti feeds, or live in the hope that the sauce is Alfredo?

Any church that does NOT post a no guns policy on its front door, should have its tax exempt status revoked. They sure aren't a Christian organization if they allow guns inside!

bill you are such a moron!!!

So if people who go to church and believe in God they are not supposed to have a gun??? Is that what you are trying to say?

Sorry but know where does it say anything about a church cannot have a gun in it, if you look at our actual history you will see that the church is where the militias met, it is where all of the able bodied men met to decide if their town should fight!!!

If I choose to carry my firearm in church, which I do, there is no reason why a church should loose its tax exempt status!!!!

I wonder where some of you morons come up with this stupidity!!!! God would not be anti Gun nor would he want his people to be unarmed, he would want us to protect ourselves against the criminals, Jesus was not some wimp who let people rob him or harm him or anything else. He allowed the Romans and the Jews to put him on the cross because that was his reason for being on the earth. He was sent here to teach as many as he could and then to be sacrificed for all of us so that if we believe in him and follow his word and try to live our lives as Christians that we may go to heaven. He allowed himself to be sacrificed so that our sins would be forgiven. He did not do that to show us that we should allow ourselves to be taken advantage of and allow criminals to do us harm!!!

People like you are so far out in left field when it comes to the Bible and Jesus, it is no wonder people are anti Christian after hearing from people like you and Vince!

A federal law was passed in 2008, because of 9/11, allowing police officers to carry a concealed weapon when off duty/retired in every state.Carrying limited privileges with certain restrictions to places like Federal places,national parks, etc. If officers who had worked a long night shift wanted to attend a local church in a state that allowed such, this officer could attend morning service, before heading home and hitting the sack.

This doesn't make him suddenly a non-Christian. Simply a matter of allowing him to have the flexibility of fitting in a stop, with his schedule. And instead of leaving his gun locked up in his car, for someone to possibly take, who figured out his schedule, he has it with him. Police are also recognized as targets, and have been killed as such. Allowing them to carry a concealed weapon, and other individuals, simply means more people, who have shown they are responsible, are available should help be needed.It is criminals and their behaviors, with mentalities causing crime.

On the other side, should a crisis happen, a potential victim/s be at risk in the area, he is there, someone trusted, trained and prepared, to respond quickly either in church or locally outside. In a critical time of need. Think of the shootings that have happened during funeral services recently.As people stood around grave sites or by the churches, or in them. We must wake up to the realization, people who are willing to kill others, are looking for places where they think victims will not have any protection. It is the cold reality of the times we live in. A matter of facing criminals behavior and their mentality.

For those who love to quote the Bible, we are expected to protect ourselves and family. Copying the example of the Savior. As the Lord talks about what the Good Shepherd is willing to do, to protect His flock from wolves, disguised in sheep's clothing, who would scatter the flock. The Shepherd does not turn away, but drives off the wolf, even if need be, laying down his life for his flock. Recall how He is willing to leave the ninety-nine, to search out and find the one that is lost. That is how much each life is esteemed. Each soul.God doesn't want more lives lost. It is a matter of being proactive, because evil is already looking for ways to take more lives. Good men must be on guard and on the watch towers, before danger arrives unnoticed. As it says, and if ye are prepared, ye shall not fear.

So it is ironic, a police officer who serves to protect the public, is not allowed to carry a gun into church, in most states. Putting him at a disadvantage should a crime happen either at church or right outside in the area. It wouldn't matter if he were the best officer in the state or country. You might disagree. I understand. But if you needed his help and protection suddenly and he couldn't give it to you, perhaps you might feel differently at that moment. Just a case of common sense. In fact, if you go back more than a hundred years, folks were already bringing their guns to church. Normal part of living in the wild frontier days of the early American pioneer days. According to my grandmother and what her pa did in the Smoky mountains

noliberty: Does this mean I should wear a ballistic vest wherever I go?

It would appear that Arkansas has finally recognized and admitted that prayer does absolutely nothing to protect anyone from anything. Either that, or Jesus has the tendency to perk up and grant more favor when 43 guns are stuck in his face.

Do you think the Sikhs in Wisconsin wish they had been carrying a few handguns at their place of worship when a psycho bent on murder arrived there? The Sikhs are traditionally peaceable, and also skillful warriors when they need to be. They should have a right to self defense.

There is no point in making guns a part of any worship service, but there is also no problem if licensed persons who want to protect themselves and their family and friends carry concealed weapons.

What has being Christian or any other faith have to do with carrying a gun? Perhaps if people recognized the rights and beliefs of other people and not their own short sighted beliefs the world would be a better place.

A gun has one purpose. It is meant to be used to kill.

A person who purchases a gun does so for one reason, they want, a some point in the future, to be able to kill, if given the opportunity.

Since this is a religious tied thread, what ever happened to "Thou Shalt NOT KILL." ?

garrie - you are actually a moron....

If those are Christian churches, then they need to follow the teachings of Jesus which mostly state the following. Love your enemies; if someone slaps your cheek offer him your other one to slap. If you have two coats and someone has none, give them one of yours. Love and never hate.

Theses are the fundamental teachings of Jesus. So Garrie, there is no room for guns in any Christian Churches.

Maybe this will allow them to self-reduce their numbers

To dirp: "Since this is a religious tied thread, what ever happened to "Thou Shalt NOT KILL." ?"

The true commandment says "Thou shall not kill wantonly, nor for personal gain". There are many places in the Bible wher it is indicated that God ordered the Jews to go into a particular city and kill every living soul in the town.

@ Bill Crane,

"NoLiberty: Do you wear a gas mask, or live in the hope that the air is breathable?

Do you wear a rubber ducky water float ring around your waist, or live in the hope that it will not flood?

Do you wear a bib at all-you-can-eat spaghetti feeds, or live in the hope that the sauce is Alfredo?"

No I do not wear a gas mask, statistically things like car accidents and food poisoning are much more common than being gassed. And while I do not have a rubber duck water float, I DO know how to swim, so yes I prepared for being in deep water. I do not wear a bib but I do have stain removing laundry detergent and shirts that are already red (I eat tomato based sauce quite often).

@ SDN

"noliberty: Does this mean I should wear a ballistic vest wherever I go?"

Not at all SDN, what it means is that its none of my business to force you to comply to my choice, the same way you have no business forcing me to comply to your choice.

@ dirp

"A gun has one purpose. It is meant to be used to kill.

A person who purchases a gun does so for one reason, they want, a some point in the future, to be able to kill, if given the opportunity.

Since this is a religious tied thread, what ever happened to "Thou Shalt NOT KILL." ?"

Dirp, I am not sure if you meant this as a joke or seriously. Can you please confirm or deny that you believe all the guns and all the gun owners constitute some "hidden army" of future murdering lunatics? I will do my best to respect your belief, even as you accuse me of crimes I have not committed, insult me, and discriminate against me based on my property.

I don't think imnotlost got it, Bill...

yeah but it went over a few heads it seems Bill

Convoluted logic is, once again, the soup de jour. They continue to argue no matter how ridiculous the tenant.

If a restaurant does not have a sign which bars guns, our family will not eat there, so why not avoid churches, too!

SO anindivid; You and your family only eat at restaurants that put up signs to tell all of the criminals that this establishment is full of unarmed morons so come on in and wipe them all out, they have no way of defending themselves!!!

The no gun zones just mean that there is no one there to stop an armed lunatic!!! and it is announcing it to everyone!!!

You and your family only eat at restaurants that put up signs to tell all of the criminals that this establishment is full of unarmed morons so come on in and wipe them all out, they have no way of defending themselves!!!

Do you only eat at restaurants where people have a fork in one hand and a gun in the other with their finger on the trigger? How else can you GUARANTEE that you will be safe unless you know for certain that you will be the first to pull the trigger and have the more accurate aim?

garrie.........

Seriously, most of us are more threatened by (vigilante) folks such as yourself than garden-variety criminals.

Sam adams, talk about a defenseless, target rich environment. No, I don't eat with a fork in one hand and a pistol in the other. I eat pretty much where I want to, although I do shy away from the places with "no weapons allowed" on the front door.

Do you need reminding of Luby's cafeteria (1991 - 23 dead) or good old McDonalds (1984 - 21 dead) and not one of them from food poisoning. Luby's was almost a classic: "no weapons" sign on the front door and one woman who obligingly left her pistol in her vehicle watched helplessly as both her mother and father were gunned down.

I don't think God is going to send me to hell for carrying a weapon anywhere, church or not. I think he will judge me more on what actions I may or may not take while carrying that weapon.

garrie: can you site the last shooting in a 'guns free zone'?

Sorry, make that 'cite'.

sdn - read the post from 2kmaro

'Citing' the last shooting in a 'guns free zone'...there was this theater in Aurora, CO this past summer, you might have heard of it..

papor:

"according to Colorado state law, it’s not permitted to simply post “No Gun Signs” — such signs do not have the force of law. Further, there is seemingly no mention of movie theaters as areas where concealed handguns are prohibited.

More from the Colorado Legislature:

(1) (a) A permit to carry a concealed handgun authorizes the permittee to carry a concealed handgun in all areas of the state, except as specifically limited in this section. A permit does not authorize the permittee to use a handgun in a manner that would violate a provision of state law. A local government does not have authority to adopt or enforce an ordinance or resolution that would conflict with any provision of this part 2.

SDN: while a CC permit allows you to carry your weapon in a concealed manner, it does not require a private establishment to allow them.

Most retail places do not allow pets, in many states or communities, the law establishes that pets are not allowed in food establishment. However, even in those, the law allows for exceptions by the owners.

This is virtually the same thing.

However, I think that anyone needing to cling to their gun and have it with them at all times (other than a LEO who is required to have it with them) has certain mental health issues which should be addressed before they are given the opportunity to have a gun.

2kmaro & mailman8.........

Read Suzanna Gratia Hupp's account of what happened at Luby's. There is NO indication Luby's was a "no weapons" zone for those with valid concealed carry permits. http://www.wmsa.net/gratia-hupp_1992.htm Please provide evidence to the contrary.

Rather, Suzanna Hupp made a PERSONAL CHOICE not to carry her weapon into Luby's. She CLAIMS she was afraid of being caught "with the gun in my purse". Whether that is true will never be known.

Several of the latest crop of mass murderers have used body armor. Hupp, who is a pro-firearms extremist (before and after the Luby's massacre), might have subdued the assailant ONLY if she were an unusually proficient marksman, in a lucky position, and not eliminated first.

It is only a matter of time before someone with a concealed weapon falls victim to an assault weapon wielding mass murderer protected by body armor. It is also only a matter of time before innocents are killed by vigilantes (however well-intentioned) attempting to subdue a criminal.

Recently, we have seen altercations that previously would have ended in a mere bloody nose escalate to murder on account of concealed weapons. Such incidents are FAR more likely than are successful armed citizen interventions in the progress of mass murder.

Most mass murderers are SUICIDAL. The expectation that some of their intended victims are armed will NOT deter them. Rather, it will only motivate them to equip themselves for that circumstance. It is those PREPARATIONS that must be made more difficult. You folks know that. But, your true agenda (armed insurrection) prevents your truthful admission.

Thank you. When an armed perp walk ups to you and pulls out his pistol, he is not going to wait for you to pull out your concealed weapon to give you a fair chance. If you go for that concealed weapon, he will shoot to stop you. The perp has already made the decision to SHOOT long before he saw you. He is not worried about public opinion, jail time, or your family's suffering. For the perp, shooting is just part of the process. Now - you think you can spot this guy a block away, pull your firearm, and shoot him before he confronts you? CONGRATULATIONS - Now YOU are the criminal!

NRA promotes that everyone should be packing and ready to shoot. We tried that in the Wild Wild West for 50 years, and yet many trains and banks, and the people in them were still robbed. The criminals just beefed up to rifles instead of pistols and started shooting as soon as they came to town. Do we want those days again? Apparently so. This time around with automatic weapons and maybe rockets too. So if you miss the perp, maybe you can blow up your neighbor's house.

Be safe out there.

Desertbro.....

During the "Wild Wild West" period, most incorporated towns and cities had an enforced policy of leaving weapons (upon entering town) with their law enforcement.

It seems those folks understood things (some of us) have forgotten. Thus, we are now repeating the mistakes that led to those rules of bygone days.

(Hopefully) sooner or (more likely) later, the great sensible majority of Americans will lose patience with and rebuke firearms extremists.

Ian Emdee & Desertbro: Spot on. People need to stop fantasizing about being the action movie heroes in their lives.

I sorry to say it, because I do not want it to happen, but it's only a matter of time before we get a shooting incident where more innocent people get shot from conceal carry holders than from the perp they were trying to take down.

"Shock and Awe" in church and it's the 21st Century. geez

not for the people having something to protect themselves for he did not!!!!

He wept because so many people are morons when it comes to gun control and are willing to give up all of their rights out of fear!!!!

garrie: "fear!!!!? Check your mirrors - you seem to be posting at the top of your lungs. Screaming lacks a certain.......credibility. It will no doubt forever elude you, but some of us fear frightened people, like you, with guns.

Your second sentence tells us more about you than most of us want to know. Attempting to change history to allay your hysterical fear simply won't work in the real world - you'll need to find a rational alternative.

Jesus wept because his word was ignored by people taking his name in vain.

Yeah, I am sure some of the unarmed- now deceased- adults at Sandy Hook and Aurora, CO shared your juvenile intellectual arrogance and imaginary cultural superiority too.

Guns do not belong in church, period. Christ was a pacificist. Turn the other cheek. Not "pass the ammo".

No... James, you see voyager2K is an American. voyager has a right to live in an America where he/she doesn't have to worry about sitting next to some idiot packing heat while he/she is trying to pray. All Americans who did not elect the NRA to run their country or who are sick and tired of the 2nd amendment being used as a club to beat America to death have a right to live without gun violence. voyager2K speaks for the majority of Americans who manage to live their lives without the urgent need to shoot someone and whose rights are being overrun by the gun lobby. The biggest threat of violence on Sunday that I can see is from all the cowboy wannabes pretending to worship Jesus with a gun in their pocket. If you are so desparate to shoot someone why don't you try Afghanistan?

mountainlady in this country we have what is called the 2nd amendment and if you do not like it to bad.... I have a CCW not because of the people at church or any place else. I have it because criminals commit crimes and they do not abide by the laws and they do carry firearms and they do kill innocent people.

I carry a firearm every where I go and it is legal and I have been well trained. my father gave me my first .22 at the age of 8, I was issued my first weapon at the age of 17, and I spent many years in the military using my firearms and I continue to go out and shoot to this day. I have as much if not more training than most police officers.

I have a problem with criminals being able to pretty much do whatever they want and they do not get punished for it because the lib/progressive/socialist movement is all about protecting the criminals while going after the law abiding citizens of this country!!!!!

Those of us who carry legally are not the problem it is the criminals and if the lib/progressive/socialist movement would go after the criminals and start pushing for tougher punishment when they commit crimes or make it mandatory for them to spend a lot more time in a prison where they were punished and not just on a vacation, then you would not see so many crimes with guns or anything else.

Us law abiding citizens are sick and tired of those who are afraid of firearms, constantly blaming us law abiding citizens for the actions of criminals that do not abide by the laws. the 2nd Amendment is not a joke it is the law and if you do not like it then you can always move somewhere else because in the USA the 2nd amendment is the law!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am tired of people like you making it sound like the 2nd amendment is bad it is not, it is what the USA is about, the right to bear arms to protect one self against criminals, and ones own government should it become corrupt!!! that is what it is about!!!!

You libs are so lost and think that the Constitution is a bother well guess what it is not, you libs are falling for the fear tactics that are being used on the usefulidiots like most of the libs.

I am tire of the lib/progressive/socialists telling United States citizens that they should leave their country so the libs can destroy it. This is the USA and there is a 2nd amendment you do not like it, Leave!!!!

The NRA is doing what most groups like them do, they are doing what the people who pay them want them to do... If the NRA is not allowed to talk to the politicians then no group should be allowed to. No more special interest groups for lib/progressive/socialist agendas, no special interest groups pushing the abortion issues or womens rights or homo rights nothing!!!! The special interest groups serve a purpose they let the politicians know what their voters want, and the majority of people in this country do not want gun control laws!!!!!!

You libs are so lost and think that the Constitution is a bother well guess what it is not, you libs are falling for the fear tactics that are being used on the usefulidiots like most of the libs.

Pure idiocy! You are the ones who do not follow the Constitution regarding the 2nd Amendment. To what "well regulated militia" do you belong?

O Voice of Reason, I fear thou spitteth into the wind. . .

And, yes, there happens to be, unfortunately, a branch of Christianity called the Church Militant.

And why do I never hear, among the cacophony of pro- and anti-gun voices here on the 'vine, one that addresses the root causes of WHY Americans resort to violence so often and so quickly? Is this the true meaning of our 'exceptionalism'?

A slippery slope indeed, this law. Schools, stadiums, reastaurants, bars, town hall meetings, bowling alleys, soon all public places will be crawling with sullen, suspicious, gun-toting avengers - all protecting themselves, their families, and their property under their twisted interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. Better just to sit at home in one's rocking chair, with a shotgun in one's lap, resigned to the inevitable armed break-in. . .

But under no circumstances should we ever explore the reasons we have become the most violent, paranoid culture in the history of the world. Nope. Wouldn't be prudent (or would it?). Nope. Let the killing continue. Die, Dialogue!! Long live guns!!

Eric, excellent post! The teachings of Jesus got twisted very early on to ignore his mandates on having respect and compassion for others and to accept and glorify violence instead of honoring his teachings regarding nonviolence. Many of the folks who use Jesus' name and pretend to worship him simply do the direct opposite of what he instructed, not realizing the grave dishonor that this brings to their savior. Unfortunately, they are just doing what the history of Christianity tells us that Jesus' supposed believers have done for millenia. Their ultimate scam is the pretense that they are "protecting" someone from the enemies all around them. They market fear because they think that their role is to be an (completely unauthorized) enforcer--judge, jury, and executioner according to their own whims. They want to bully people into respecting them by carrying guns because they haven't done anything to gain respect legitimately.

garrie: I see you have your "moron" thing in top gear today.

"my father gave me my first .22 at the age of 8, I was issued my first weapon at the age of 17". Am I missing something here, or is it you?

" the 2nd Amendment is not a joke it is the law and if you do not like it then you can always move somewhere else because in the USA the 2nd amendment is the law!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you aware of the literary use of !!!!!!!!!!!!!! to represent hysteria? Or is it simply your strategy to convince 'morons' of your perspective? Strangely, I don't see any 'morons' here using the same strategy.

vox: Three 'libs' in one sentence. Google 'fetish', 'fixation', 'obsession'. While you're at it, Google 'regulated', 'armed', 'provisioned', 'trained'.

james; hahahahahahahahahahaha

Sorry Thomas, spirit.. holy or not won't stop a bullet.

Unless you are a doctor.

The Devil can't enter in a church where the Holy Spirit is present..

Most people are afraid of their own shadow and are led to believe anything.

Churches should have to pay income tax and property tax. Also sales tax. If this was done today, tomorrow the national debt would disappear.

The Republican-controlled House passed the bill 85-8 with bipartisan support last week. The measure previously passed the Republican-controlled Senate 28-4.

He could have vetoed it, but the republicans probably would have enough votes to override the veto anyway.

starbuck, he could have, probably. We will not know will we because he signed it. if he did not want it he should not have signed it, then if it passed he would be on record against it and stuck to his belief. Do not make excuses for him.

Admit it was a republican sponsored bill, not a democratic one. Rommel Romney signed many bills too because he was afraid they would override his vote too.

Thats why that moron Romney lost, flip floping on the issues. I expect more from a democrat govenor. we will not get gun control if dems are to afraid to say no.

I think the next bill the gopers make will be to allow guns on the beaches.

duh - in most places, guns are allowed on the beaches. Unless there is a specific restriction, a beach would be the same as a sidewalk.

Not only did a Democrat sign the bill, it had bipartisan support in both houses (85-8 and 28-4). It allows individual churches to decide for themselves if they want to allow guns to be carried inside. A church has to explicitly state that guns ARE allowed, or else they remain prohibited. As such, it's more of a community rights issue than a gun control issue. It's more Libertarian than it is Republican in nature, in my opinion.

Don't forget to strap your gun on when going to the beach.

defenseless pray???

oldlib:

My first reaction as well. Literary skills aside, these people live in a mental Mogadishu. For whatever reason, they think their imaginary bunker represents our society. "defenseless pray"(sic)? "target-rich environment"? "Morons", indeed.

According to the LA Country Sheriffs Office long-term study. When highly trained officers, that daily face violent situations, use their weapons, one round in two hits something, someone, other than the intended target. If two officers fire, three rounds in four hits something, someone, other than the intended target. If more than two officers fire, ten of eleven (yep, that's right) rounds fired hit something, someone, other than the intended target. Doubters? Look it up. The NYPD has a similar study with similar results.

Unfortunately, these statistics will not convince the 'terminators' among us of the profound menace they represent to the rest of us. By definition, nothing convinces a paranoid delusion. If they persist in these fantasies, what sort of laws should we have concerning the liabilities of those wounding or killing bystanders as the result of such hysterical behavior?

If they persist in these fantasies, what sort of laws should we have concerning the liabilities of those wounding or killing bystanders as the result of such hysterical behavior?

Shhhh! Don't give them ideas! Next the NRA will be trying to pass laws removing ALL liability if an (untrained) armed citizen opens fire *believing* they are protecting themselves or someone else!

howie: Sorry. It wouldn't come as a surprise, would it?

seperation of church and state? shouldnt the decision be left to the church

That ain't incense, Missy; its gunsmoke...

Missy, I'm guessing that if someone's really angry enough to be shooting people at a church, they're not gonna care whether guns are *allowed* or not. The change in the law simply allows churches that are comprised of people who are already used to carrying concealed weapons to no longer violate state laws if they don't disarm before entering the church. The law probably won't actually change much in the way of anyone's behavior. In some churches, some people who actually obeyed the law and disarmed before entering church will no longer feel they have to. Those persons may still disarm, or they may not. It's not likely to affect anyone else at all.

Re-read the article, William, then look at a map if you own one or know how to use it. Wyoming already has such a law and isn't located anywhere near the South. But we get your point, you have an anti-South prejudice. The paranoid gun nuts can be and are living in every part of the country.

William, it is not just the South that supports idiotic laws, and there are those of us in the South who oppose this law. I live in Little Rock, Arkansas, and am most against the recent passage of an inane law.

Welcome them in!!!

He would say "Careful with that muzzle brother, safety on, don't point it at anything you are not willing to kill and keep your finger off the trigger".

unlike most satanic cults.

Blue state rubes NEVER cease to amaze the sane among us.

The only relevant question is...

What next????

vern: Much to be said for originality.